The Invisibles

invisibles

Forge the Sky:

The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.

But women have different relationships with them. To women, betas are friends, helpers, co-workers, employees, servants; unless related by blood, they are practical beings only. There is no romance to them. They are useful, fun, maybe even someone to be a little affectionate toward so long as they remain useful, but they have no deeper self, no soul, no mystical thing to bind to.

Alphas are something else entirely. They are actually people – people drenched with desire, romance, spirit. Him, she can respect. In greater cases even worship. It matters little how well he performs objectively, so long as he does nothing to make her doubt her assessment of him as alpha. If he does perform, she admires and praises his performance – but she’s doing that about something or another regardless, even if she’s gushing about how he bought her a bag of skittles.

No woman will stand beside a beta as he faces, and succumbs to, death. Not unless it’s convenient, or she would be shamed otherwise. It simply would not make sense for her to do so. Would you hold your employee’s hand as they lay dying? Only if they had a fatal accident right in front of you. Past that, condolences to the kids.

Men see two genders. Men and women. Better and worse, more and less attractive, but no fundamental difference. Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women. And so we try to improve our beta game, instead of flipping the script.

The blue pill is miserable because it is learned helplessness. From within, it is the cracking of an invisible whip, punishment meted capriciously and without time or reason. There is no pattern or method to the blue pill man’s pain.

FTS must’ve been reading my mind this week because his comment made a perfect segue into what I’ve been developing this week. The most salient part of this comment, I thought, was “Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women.”

This was a good observation because there are intrinsic parts of the male psychological firmware that the Feminine Imperative picked up on long ago and deliberately co-opts to better aid in optimizing women’s control of Hypergamy.

From the utility-need side of Hypergamy, this mostly manifests in various forms of serviceable security. The Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy can be distilled to a need for security, protection, and a certainty that a woman and her offspring will be insured against any uncertainty. Every psychological and sociological dynamic that contributes to feminine-primacy keys on this need for existential certainty. The War Brides dynamic, the evolution from old-order chivalry to modern feminism, and now the social / legal handicapping of men to ensure that feminine-security certainty above all other considerations are all manifestations of this need.

The Feminine Imperative learned long ago that men’s innate protectorate instinct for the feminine was its second most valuable means of masculine control – the first being men’s ‘always on’ sexual impetus. Thus pairing the two as a means of control is a simple deductive proposition for the imperative. The rudimentary connection being, “protect the woman and I get sex.”

This is the unspoken exchange that’s part of our evolutionary past. Men are nothing if not deductive (yet creative) problem solvers, and women have used this to their hypergamous advantage since our hunter-gatherer beginnings.

This is what confounds modern men under the auspices of our present feminine-primary social order. We’re emphatically told that women “never owe men sex“, yet the latent message is, and has always been, “but, if you perform to her satisfaction, she might be more inclined to give you sex.” Carrot to pull the cart, I know, but this mental algorithm is a sociological buffer for women – exclude the sexually unworthy, but leave an acceptable caveat in order to leverage the possibility of sex with those who are still useful in providing security.

Bear this in mind the next time you read a story about a savior White Knight who was beaten to a bloody pulp for his effort to protect a woman from the “predations” of some Alpha(s) she likely wants to bang anyway. Men will project, by default, our own gender interpretation onto women, and sometimes pay the price for it. Betas believe the feminine-primary, equalist advertising that men and women are functional equals while still force fitting an expected, old-order, male-protectionism (completely based on an unequal state presumption) into that belief – often at their own expense.

Invisible Men

While I disagree that there are no distinct physical and cultural markers that women use (sometimes subconsciously) to distinguish Alpha men from the bulk of Beta men, I strongly agree with the distinction and characterization Forge the Sky makes with how women regard Beta men.

The vast majority of men are sexually invisible to women, but all males are visible in terms of their utility to women and the role those men are expected to play in deference to women’s solipsism.

There’s an important difference in that visibility with respect to men and women we need to consider.

I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. That may be the case, particularly for mature women convinced they should be sexually viable into their 50s, however, those women’s functional utility is never an issue for men. Neither is it an article of attraction for a man. As much as a feminine-centric culture would like to convince women of the opposite, men simply don’t factor a woman’s provisional utility into their attraction equation.

Invisible men never become visible to women until either those men intrude on a woman’s’ awareness or she has a specific utilitarian need of him. At this point, whether due to arousal / attraction awareness or her specific need (usually protection or security insurance), that man must perform to prove his maleness. He must qualify for her visual acknowledgment of him.

Over prolonged periods, this invisibility, and the fear of having his insistence rejected, can influence men’s overall perception of women and their intergender interpretations. Invisible men tend to confuse a woman’s utility interests in him as genuine indicators of interest (IOIs). The Feminine Imperative prepares for this ‘mixed message’ with a constant, self-perpetuating social narrative that tells the invisible men they are never, under any circumstance, owed a woman’s intimacy – it is always a gift, a reward, for her approval.

Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman.

Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.

If we consider the 80 / 20 rule of the sexual marketplace and figure that 80% of Beta men are sexually invisible to women we get a broader perspective of how the gender landscape has evolved in an era where women’s security-side needs are planned for and met with a relative degree of certainty.

I had a teenage kid I used to consult who related this story about how one of his nerdy friends had somehow spontaneously generated the interest of a girl who was an obvious two points above his SMV. His initial frustration was one of wonderment about how this guy could be ‘dating’ so hot a girl while he wasn’t bumping the needle with even the girls he thought were a point below himself.

His nerdy friend assumed the predictable self-righteous Beta position that some “special” girls just understand and appreciate guys like him in favor of the brutish jocks “society tells them they should like.” All this came two weeks before that year’s homecoming dance (and after-party), where she promptly left him to go dance and party with her girlfriends and their jock guy-friends for the rest of the evening.

This kid had served his utilitarian purpose of fronting the money for the evening, a limo, corsage, photos (of their group) and the bit of risky underage liquor he could manage. In spite of all that he still refused to make the connection of his being used for her purpose. Invisibles feel validated in their own manipulation because that utility made them visible (“do my homework nerd”) even if just momentarily. As bad as that extortion was, that brief moment of visibility implies the prospect that another woman in the future (a really special one) will also appreciate his utility and reward it with her intimacy.

Needless to say, this visibility differential becomes an internalized factor in men’s approach to women. There are ways an invisible man can make himself visible; all require effort and risk. As I stated before, a man remains invisible unless his physical presence and arousal prompts make him unignorable, his performance is outstanding enough to draw attention or he simply asserts his visibility towards that woman. Physical bearing and performance recognition being the Alpha Fucks side of the Hypergamy equation is an easy follow, but a man asserting himself and his personality is where the Red Pill and applied Game come into play. This prospect will always imply risk of rejection until such a time that an Invisible’s confidence supersedes his self-image as an invisible.

We had a long discussion in the last thread about the mindset of the MGTOW contingent of the manosphere and the sentiment of men wishing to remove themselves wholesale from the sexual marketplace. I understand this sentiment and I know men, like Advocatus Diaboli, who have legitimately recused themselves from the SMP, but it seems to me this want is the result of having been invisible to women for so long. They get to a point where they become invisible by choice.

The Third Sex

I can’t finish this essay without drawing attention to FTS’s first observation:

The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.

After I’d reconsidered this I had to dig out my copy of Plato’s Symposium and pore through it to read the part where Aristophanes proposed that there were, in fact, three sexes (in primal times) that their all-male discussion collective ought to consider:

 There were three sexes: the all male, the all female, and the “androgynous,” who was half male, half female. The males were said to have descended from the sun, the females from the earth and the androgynous couples from the moon.

A lot is being made of transgenderism recently and the fluidity with which people want to arbitrarily “gender-identify” borders on the ridiculous, but FTS’s observation has more implications than I think most are aware of. I’m sorry to go all philosophus on you, but I can definitely see parallels with the symbolism Aristophanes suggests and the female perceptions of the division of maleness FTS brings out here. Although Aristophanes would say that these primal beings split into gays, lesbians and heterosexual beings, I’d suggest that this primal awareness stems from a male understanding of the division of Alpha and Beta men and how women perceive them, visibly and non-visibly.

I covered this a while back in Queens, Workers & Drones:

Selective Breeding

So powerful is this sense of entitlement, so consuming and convinced of the correctness of their purpose is the feminine that women will literally breed and raise generations of men to better satisfy it. Hypergamy is cruel, but nowhere more so than in the relationship between a mother overtly raising and conditioning a son to be a better servant of the feminine imperative.

But to breed a better worker, the feminine imperative’s queens can’t afford to have any corrupting, masculine, outside influence. On a societal scale this might mean removal (either by disincentives or forcibly) of a father from the family unit, but this is the easy, extreme illustration. There are far more subtle social and psychological means that the imperative uses to effect this filtering – via mass media, social doctrines, appeals to (feminized) morality, the feminine is placed as the correct imperative while the masculine is filtered out or apologetically tolerated as vestiges of an immature and crude reminder of masculinity’s incorrectness.

Yet for all of this social engineering Hypergamy still demands satisfaction of women’s most base imperative, Alpha seed. The queens need physically / psychologically dominant drones – if just for a season and at their ovulatory pleasure. While beta workers are endlessly vetted in sisyphean tasks of qualifying for the acceptance of the feminine imperative, the Alpha drones live outside this shell; their qualifications only based on how well they satisfy the feminine’s visceral side of  hypergamy.

The great irony of this social solution to hypergamy and long term parental investment is that the vast majority of the offspring of this arrangement would be raised to be better workers. Those betas-to-be boys must be insulated from the corrupting influence of the drones lest they devolve into the Alphas they crave yet cannot control. It may seem counterintuitive, to raise what should ostensibly be optimized genetic stock as a cowed, sometimes medically restrained, feminized beta males. However it is through this harsh conditioning that truly dominant Alphas must rise above. Essentially the genetic lottery isn’t won by women in such a social environment – it’s men, or the ones who rise above in spite of the conditioning efforts of the feminine imperative.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Tilikum
9 years ago

To distill: modern women fill their time trying to find, capture, and beat Alpha’s into Betas, and ignoring Betas or exploiting them. Betas try like hell to bring down Alphas looking for mating rights. This is where gym rats and wanna be situational alphas (read uber rich nerds) lay in wait. Same with cops and soldiers. They are in identity crisis every min of every day. It’s fun to be fucking people up, tooling them, in the mix and testing yourself, fight it out, but eventually it gets tiring and you consider a unicorn. Maybe you say “ok, I won’t… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

@Tuff (840am) — Well, not really. Chivalry comes from a time when women were structurally disadvantaged vis-a-vis men. This no longer applies. Women are not only not structurally disadvantaged vis-a-vis men, but are advantaged in many ways. You’re learning one bug way right now in family court, but also sexual power (average woman has more than average man), social power (due to FI/societal tilt in women’s favor) and so on. Chivalry is inapposite today — it is pedtestalizing and inappropriate. I am a lawyer and have worked with high-powered, equalist women for over 20 years now professionally. I do not… Read more »

gregg
gregg
9 years ago

I do not agree with this completely. Women DO NEED betas, they desperately need them. Marriage and rising the kids is ultimately beta thing. Women must keep men in the dark, beta men specifically. Women panic if BETA men go MGTOW. Many Alpha men already are MGTOW – they fuck but do not give a fuck, they live their own lives for themsleves. Alphas are allowed to be MGTOW, women are somoehow counting with this. But with beta men it is complete opposite. He is not allowed to live for himself, he shall live for women! His life mission is… Read more »

Tilikum
9 years ago

@gregg

“Marriage and rising the kids is ultimately beta thing.”

This statement shows your conditioning and couldn’t be FURTHER from the truth. Modernity has failed you amigo.

Wet streets don’t cause rain.

gregg
gregg
9 years ago

@tilikum

I know, I know….fucking the same aging women for 20 years is the alpha heaven. Who do you want to fool that you enjoy it amigo?

Jeremy
9 years ago

@gregg

This is the reason of “where are all the good men”…aka where are my slaves when I need one.

Actually, I would guess that the “where are all the good men?” question is an open acknowledgement of the conflicting requirements women have. It is an unanswerable question because when a woman asks it, she’s not asking for “good men”, she’s asking why there’s no one around to satisfy her hypergamy.

Badpainter
Badpainter
9 years ago

“Where are all the good men?” = “why can’t I have it all?”

Tilikum
9 years ago

@ gregg

Women are interchangeable. The kids are not. Lion model dude, lion model.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@bp

“Where are all the good men?” = “why can’t I have it all?”

Or when said in a room with men present, “Why won’t you all start qualifying yourselves to me?”

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@nova “It takes a while to learn how things are now, and I don’t fault you for not understanding them. But you seem to not really understand the current dynamic very well, honestly” Look, I understand and agree I have much to learn, but the more things change, the more they stay the same. Chicks were ‘plenty’ bitchy and entitled in the 90’s. My statements about chivalry and criticism of 447 come from the (albeit limited) empirical evidence I’ve experienced in the past six months. In every IOI and the singular lay I’ve had since the bitch left.. good ol’… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Rollo

Thanks.. that it did.. I was already in a regularly gigging metal band at the time.

I was also fortunate enough to lose my virginity at 15 to a very experienced 17 year old, who taught me more than I ever need to know.

What’s your point?

Not all of us found ourselves at 22 bud. From 16 to 18 I had more regular sex than I did in college.

Tilikum
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

Have you ever told anyone or even yourself that “I kinda like em crazy”?

Interested in your response.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Let me just add, fellas, that just about every girl from those days was a GF, and a repeat fuck.. And every one of them shit on me in the end, in the same way as my wife.

So lay off guys. I learned these lessons you teach long ago, except I thought it was just me 🙂

That said. This is why I’m addicted to this blog.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

When I first started to express sexuality to women openly, it was because of a story a shrink told me about a female patient. She was out on a date with a guy, found him attractive but was not aroused by him. They had been at one venue and were moving to another when he opened the door for her. The door at this restaurant had you facing a mirror the moment you walked in, and as she looked in the mirror, she caught him behind her holding the door and using the opportunity to get a good look at… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Tilikum On reflection, it’s tough not to conclude that I do, but that’s not it. The truth is, I’ve always just been a sucker for the hottest girl who would let me fuck her, to my own demise, obviously. If she’d repeatedly let me fuck her, I was all in. The wife was no different. But gimme a little credit, I kept it afloat with the bitch for 20 years, much of it was enjoyable (despite the dysfunction), and my kids are sane and healthy, thanks to my leadership. I don’t regret it just because it failed. I feel pretty… Read more »

Tilikum
9 years ago

@Tuff I have some experience with this, personally. Two types of women are likely attracted to you, A. over-masculine and wild read: interesting, B. doe eyed and feminine. read: boring. Turns out you can be too Alpha, too over the top, naturally. I submit you are an overly and highly conditioned natural Alpha, and I’d assume an extrovert or highly outgoing introvert. Just walk from this blog and the sphere bro. I doubt that (like me) it’s not a matter of getting laid by 8+ females. It’s not for you, and you won’t like where it takes you. Learning the… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Tilikum Not that I think you’re complimenting me.. But that’s pretty good and accurate shit, I must say. FYI I’m very introverted, but I become extroverted with those with whom I become intimate (physically or otherwise), including good friends. This blog and the sphere has given me one very useful thing, and that is clear proof that it isn’t just me that suffers at the hands of women, it seems to be epidemic. Very valuable from an ego perspective. But I realized some weeks ago, ’bout the time I lost my post-divorce virginity.. My game really hasn’t changed. Intimacy IS… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Rollo

Maybe not..

But I still don’t believe you don’t open doors for Mrs. Tomasi
I don’t believe you would not lay your life on the line for her.
I don’t believe you wouldn’t attack someone who molested her.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

jeff
jeff
9 years ago

M Simon, I have read Aleister Crowley. That is when I woke up to politics as a big game and show. I have always been staunch conservative, but after looking into illuminati and put on my glasses I could see republicats and democrans for what they are… Rollo, So if you get married, you are automatically a beta? Why try to game the wife then? Are we to assume our wives think of us as beta no matter what unless they are groping us and dripping wet? On one hand I don’t care, as my wife is giving it to… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

So I stand by what I said. Equalism may be the normal behavior in a pro environment. But when you ask some chick out to lunch (even a lawyer), do you open the door for them at the restaurant, or not? You do, and you know it. That’s not chivalry, though. That’s Game. Chivalry is holding the door open for the fat chick you have no interest in at the mall, giving up your seat on the subway to some woman you have no interest in — chivalry is not related to “sexual interest”, it’s a more general deference to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@Novaseeker

That’s not chivalry, though. That’s Game.

Yup.

it’s a more general deference to women in that way as the “weaker sex”

In all fairness, I really have no problem giving up a seat to the elderly (regardless of sex) or pregnant women. They are weaker than me.

Straight up fat chicks though? They need to strengthen their knees and I’m tired after a long day of work. You’re standing, sweetheart.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Semantics @nova.. just like @rollo Let’s just call it “Holding the door”. FYI I do it everyday for any woman, no matter what, and NEVER for a man unless he is literally one step behind me. Am I conditioned to do so.. yes. Am I doing a disservice to the world, and/or men. HELL NO. Gimme a freaking break. If I can bring a smile to some fat or old woman’s face and have her walk on thinking “what a nice man, chivalry is not dead”, there’s not a fucking thing wrong with that. For all we know she’s a… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Did it occur to anyone here that a lot of unattractive or old women are such miserable bitches, and become man haters, BECAUSE men treat them like shit? Where’s the love fellas?

Here I am being raped by the system, yet I refuse to stoop. The nice old lady I just held the door for does not deserve that.

Tilikum
9 years ago

@Nova and Sun Wu

When you have “game”, they open the door for YOU. Deference to your value. This is REALLY easy stuff for you long time posters. Your struggle needs to be in figuring out WHY you can’t internalize these ineffable truths and continue to distort reality. It cues to me psychological damage.

Think like royalty, not supplicating serfs.

Tilikum
9 years ago

@Tuff

You are not mad at the system because deep down your conditioning makes you believe you deserve it. That is the wages of Beta and White Knighting.

IF you are hell bent on going down this painful road, Rollo is great but you need to harden up homie. Spend some time at CH too.

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

lol @TuffLuv

We have a live one here guys. The BP is in his mouth, just needs to swallow. I suggest reading more of Rollo’s posts on here, it doesn’t seem like you have read everything.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

It’s called independent critical thinking fellas. Rollo is brilliant, and so are many of you, but group think can find it’s way into any discussion. You are not immune. @Tilikum women do hold the door for me as well. I mostly despise it. I AM the stronger sex, and they demean me by suggesting otherwise. I respect a woman who lets the door go. She’s giving me respect. By the OLD RULES.. isn’t that what we want? And you’re way off about me thinking I deserve it. This bitch will pay a price, I promise all of you that. Now,… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

And by white knighting, I do not mean simply holding the door.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Tilikum it’s not deference to your value.. how naive are you? It’s a slight of the highest form..

Here ya go little pansy boy.. lemme get that for you.

as opposed to..

You’re a big boy.. you don’t need little ol me holding the door for you, do ya?

Y’all seriously have this wrong.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

I did.. and again.. semantics. I conceded we won’t call it chivalry for this particular discussion. I’m simply talking about ‘holding the door’, which 447 advises is criminal, as is helping with boxes, or anything else ‘courteous’. I’m saying he’s dead wrong, and so is everyone who is backing up that proposition. I do appreciate your essays on the origins of chivalry, quite interesting. But breaking the decorum of the day in every woman’s face only serves the FI, guys. Think about it. Think about hamster logic for a second and read what I said above and just think about… Read more »

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv Did it occur to anyone here that a lot of unattractive or old women are such miserable bitches, and become man haters, BECAUSE men treat them like shit? Where’s the love fellas? The life cycle problems of the opposite sex is a YP… your problem… not my problem. Women who do not capitalize on their 20+ years of superior SMP power to not end up old, alone and bitter deserve what they get. As in all things in life… If you don’t solve your own problems first, you deserve what you get which will undoubtedly be the problems of… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

I’m out for a bit guys (I can hear the cheers).. would love to read some rational arguments to what I said that don’t just parrot the group, later. And yes rollo I did read your closing paragraph in the one link where you said chivalry has it’s place.. So, I don’t know why the flock is so bent on not holding the door for females. They don’t seem to see that it is a signal to them that they ARE seen as the weaker sex, which is a good thing. I would even go as far to say when… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@rollo

“No one’s saying don’t hold the door for a woman”

447’s post said exactly that and more, which started this discussion.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

And I’ve just explained why I do it. It has nothing to do with feeling good. I will concede it has to do with conditioning and learned behavior.

But the reason I won’t let it go now, in the face of the strong FI, and why 447 shouldn’t either, is duly explained above.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@jeremy

“..not end up old, alone and bitter deserve what they get.”

Super presumptuous about the fat old lady. How do you know these things about her? Are you omniscient?

Badpainter
Badpainter
9 years ago

TuffLuv – “Did it occur to anyone here that a lot of unattractive or old women are such miserable bitches, and become man haters, BECAUSE men treat them like shit? Where’s the love fellas?”

Again…

You have got to be fucking kidding.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@rollo

super weak man.. super weak.

lol.. fyi I’m more heartbroken ’bout the last chick than my bitch ex. cest la vie..

I can see you don’t want any ‘dissent’ on your blog.. but y’all need to realize that if you want any kind of return of women to the old ways, then don’t give up the old ways.

Continue them, whether they like it or not.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

“..not end up old, alone and bitter deserve what they get.”

Super presumptuous about the fat old lady. How do you know these things about her? Are you omniscient?

Are you insane? That was your own scenario I was commenting on, the (poorly blockquoted by me) text was your own.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

@Tuff — Women will certainly take what you freely offer them, and then go right ahead and vote for Hillary to tax you cock right off you, and smile at you all the way. The fact that they smile and take what you offer does NOT mean that it has a positive impact on them, or that it in any way moves them away from feminism. You have a large misunderstanding there. If anything, they see you as quaint, out of date, and a bit of a stooge, but they will take it — a useful man, as it were.… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Dude, I’m not holding onto romanticism. I continue to hold the door for two reasons. 1. It’s effective game if it’s a chick I want to break the ice with. Call it an opener. and 2. For the rest.. a) The miserable bitch feminist.. I am slighting her by denying her her equalism, instead of handing it to her on a platter like 447 suggests. I’m straight up TELLING her she is the weaker sex in my view. b) The chick I know nothing about who is not a miserable feminist bitch, has done no harm and there’s no harm… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@jeremy

“Are you insane? ”

Maybe..

But while I did say fat and old, I never said alone. Sure alone when I opened the door for her.. doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a big family at home, with a husband she cooks for, etc… That’s where you are being quite presumptuous if you let the door go.

Get it now?

We’ll leave my state of sanity for another thread.

Badpainter
Badpainter
9 years ago

I still think TuffLuv might be woman.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@nova Very sweeping generalization about women’s perception of door holding. I disagree. They will see it in different ways depending on their disposition and their raising, believe it or not.. Just like @Tilikum thinks a woman holding a door for him is props for his value, and I see it as a challenge to his manhood. I’m only suggesting that possibility, and that there’s no harm in it, while also saying there IS harm in disposing of the practice altogether, because it grants feminist-minded women the equalism they want.. gives them a ‘see I told you’, for women on the… Read more »

447
447
9 years ago

“TuffLuv February 25th, 2015 at 8:40 am @447 You’re ridiculous man.. Do you really think your advice will help these invisible young gents? Are you telling me you don’t hold the door for a hot chick you just saw for the first time, to set the stage for the elevator ride you’re about to share, in order to gain a little edge in qualifying for her interest? You’re full of shit, man. Boys, you WILL qualify for her affection, whether you like it or not. You WILL perform. Being an asshat in a one on one scenario will never get… Read more »

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv But while I did say fat and old, I never said alone. Sure alone when I opened the door for her.. doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a big family at home, with a husband she cooks for, etc… That’s where you are being quite presumptuous if you let the door go. Well, if we’re just discussing fat and old, that’s easier. Lets go back to your comment… Did it occur to anyone here that a lot of unattractive or old women are such miserable bitches, and become man haters, BECAUSE men treat them like shit? Where’s the love fellas?… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

@Tuff — No. The old rules don’t apply. You can still apply them personally, but women will nevertheless work under the new rules as well. Sure, they will take the benefits of the old rules when they are offered, and then will take the benefits of the new rules as well. You are not reinstituting the old rules by being chivalrous, you are merely permitting women — as a class (because that is how they vote) — to continue to avoid the consequences of enacting the new rules by continuing to provide them with the benefits of the old rules… Read more »

447
447
9 years ago

“Did it occur to anyone here that a lot of unattractive or old women are such miserable bitches, and become man haters, BECAUSE men treat them like shit? ”
😀

Hypergamy doesn’t care about invisible men.

Men with options (aka at least learned/situational alpha signal capability or above in skill level) don’t care about the signal carriers of the hypergamic code.

“Where’s the love fellas?”
In the set of books.

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

TuffLuv’s 20 year BP marriage really did a number on his FI conditioning. But then again, everyone during triage goes thorough similar motions.

447
447
9 years ago

“They’re not going back to stuff they don’t like — period. If men offer the best of both worlds, without a price, of course they will take it –> they are not stupid. But they are not “going back to that” in general, in any way that doesn’t specifically benefit them, whether you act chivalrously or not.” I fully agree to this statement. As your statement explicitly makes clear, there is no reciprocity at all. The logical conclusion is to do as one pleases, because the other party EXPLICITLY states to have no interest in reciprocity or reaching an agreement.… Read more »

jeff
jeff
9 years ago

Rollo, Thanks, read it and it makes sense. I guess I Dreaded her and I soft dread her now, as she is getting some grey hairs etc. Since learning and going through the stages I’ve gained frame ie., I now where more style and button downs tucked in and shave more with more cologne etc. I’ve always been in great shape. The seeing me as a family member seems to be the ringer. Since learing and practicing all of this, she is has had me put it in the back door which she only did once a very long time… Read more »

redlight
redlight
9 years ago

“TuffLuv”

It’s called independent critical thinking fellas. Rollo is brilliant, and so are many of you, but group think can find it’s way into any discussion. You are not immune.

“AlphaFemale”

Group think is a terrible and scary thing, as this blog proves time and time again.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

Yay, automatically decry a group that shares ideas with the pejorative “group think” label. Never mind if those shared ideas are valid for the majority of cases or not.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@Sun Wukong

“Group think” started off as a term describing technical people cornering themselves into an unmarketable solution to the technical problem posed to them (a economically phyrric victory of sorts). Now it’s a label used by the mainstream against any small group that disagrees with them. It has lost all meaning, it’s as meaningless as the term “racist” at this point.

What’s really bad is when you see people use that term to prevent themselves from considering alternative points of view.

redlight
redlight
9 years ago

there is word phrasing common to “TuffLuv” and “Professor Von Hardwiggs”

which is to say be careful about holding the door open for possible trolls

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@jeremy “has left you no experience with the real world for what 80+% of men deal with on a daily basis.” Well, I’ll concede this is true.. And certainly I don’t have the same needs or concerns as the younger generation who have a desire to have a family, decent woman, etc (believe or not, my wife was a decent woman, while difficult, for most of our marriage).. But y’all realize I’m just trying to help.. I still disagree, and think you are conceding equalism, and giving them an excuse to promote their cause (i.e. proving their point). But we’ll… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Nova

“through your actions you are saying “hey, you can have the best of the new rules, and the best of the old rules, too, and men are totally cool with that!”.”

No.. I’m saying, “hey babe, you smell goooood.” While I hold the door for her. lol

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

I still disagree, and think you are conceding equalism, and giving them an excuse to promote their cause (i.e. proving their point). But we’ll agree to disagree. First guy to get a chick to show interest by letting the door go on her, post your experience here. First guy to get ANY positive out of it, I’d like to know.

That just reads like absurdity. You do realize that equalism would require me to let the door slam in her face?

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@jeremy

Yes, that’s my point. By not holding the door you are treating her as an equal. If you hold the door, you are sending her the signal that you are the stronger sex. Can be insulting to a feminist or Strong Indy.

Inversely, a woman holding the door for me sends “me” the message she thinks we’re equals.. It repulses me, and this is one time when I will try to train that particular woman, by stopping, fidgeting, whatever I can do to leave her hanging.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

It’s my way of saying, “bitch, that ain’t the way it works.”

Maybe I’m just an old timer, but I still don’t see how y’all are gaining anything.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv Yes, that’s my point. By not holding the door you are treating her as an equal. If you hold the door, you are sending her the signal that you are the stronger sex. That’s a false dichotomy if I’ve ever seen one. Neither one of those actions automatically presumes the conclusion you are giving. Equalism demands that I let the door slam in her face, but it does not follow that if I let the door slam in her face then I am treating her like an equal. Likewise, chivalry demands that I hold doors, drop cloaks into puddles,… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
9 years ago

Tuff- your response to Nova shows you are not thinking your points through. He made a great point which you try to blow off with a non-sequitur. You made th point that holding doors open for women was part of some way of keeping women in their place. Nova made a very good point about how women are then simply getting the benefits of chivalry without the impetus to change. Your answer was a very lame response at humor to cover the fact that he disproved your point. You are the one who brought up how you are teaching woman… Read more »

lh
lh
9 years ago

@tuff: I agree with you one can get some very positive responses from holding doors or helping her into the jacket. But Rollo et all is still right. It is just the trigger to release an attraction that had to be build otherwise. They often don’t realize it was there before themselves, that’s why it’s so deceptive. If you got some natural alpha traits and basically do suit-game for a living (I’m a lawyer myself), you might not realize it. But if you had less alpha and would do it all the time to women, it wouldn’t yield any positive… Read more »

lh
lh
9 years ago

@tuff Oh, and that old lady was once a young bitch too. awalt.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@hobbes

he did not disprove my point..

His interpretation of what is “says to a woman” when I hold the door open is no more valid than mine. Mine being “hey lemme get that for you, you weaker sex thing, you. cuz I’m a man and you need my help”.

They are all opinions.

But you’re right, I did non-sequitur.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@jeremy

“That’s a false dichotomy if I’ve ever seen one. ”

False in your opinion.

It is only my opinion. I never claimed it as fact.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

” What you’re missing is the red pill context that makes these actions alpha or beta.”

Well, perhaps my viewpoint, and my actions, and my intent, are simply alpha in my opinion.

That’s why I do them. It’s me being a man, whether the woman likes it or not, whether convention calls for it or not, whether it’s outdated or not. I like the response I get.. I like to send the signal I ‘think’ I’m sending. I like believing that 1 in 10 women view it as,, rebellious even. Yes, I mean that.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@hobbes

“Nova showed you were wrong. ”

No, he just gave his opinion

“then go for it, no-one is telling you not to.”

” The fact that you are geting caught up in holding doors convo shows you are missing the point.”

Just fyi, this convo had nothing to do with rollo’s teachings, and was a direct response to a direct suggestion by 447. He was telling me ‘not to’. And I started the argument, so I should finish it.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

“That’s a false dichotomy if I’ve ever seen one. ”

False in your opinion.
It is only my opinion. I never claimed it as fact.

Temptation to be extraordinarily mean…. very strong….must…resist…

Blank
Blank
9 years ago

Just realized this is ladder theory wrapped in a different package… good stuff. Can’t wait for you’re next book Rollo. I need all the help I can get to deal with women right now. I’m in a US top-5 Industrial Engineering school, and just received an email earlier today from the new female academic advisor (now works as an “equal” to the male academic advisor who has a B.S. & M.S. in Industrial Engineering, Ph.D in Philosophy, whereas she has a Masters in Teaching and B.A. in History) about an upcoming event, “[Name of College] Women Lead”. They have the… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@rollo

how so?

I’ve explained that it has already worked as an effective opener for me, and surely for other gents.

Interested in how that makes me BP in your view?

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Have at it Jeremy

A false dichotomy could only exist if I were presenting two binary facts..

I am only offering two possible opinions of what goes through a woman’s mind in a certain scenario.. never claiming they are the only one’s possible, never claiming they are facts.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv Well, first, what I stated wasn’t opinion, it’s just fact. I’ll repeat it: Neither one of those actions automatically presumes the conclusion you are giving. Equalism demands that I let the door slam in her face, but it does not follow that if I let the door slam in her face then I am treating her like an equal. Likewise, chivalry demands that I hold doors, drop cloaks into puddles, etc… but just because I hold a door does not make me the “stronger sex”. You’re presuming an either-or scenario exists in a world where context matters more than… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
9 years ago

@tuff- I will just say this and let you be.. you are invested in your ideas and I am not invested in changing them, so I wish you the best.

I can hold a door open for a woman and believe it means I am Napoleon, but the fact remains I am not. Nova offered logical reasoning that was as close to facts as we can come to in this type of discussion. In response you offer merely that your opinion, being an opinion, makes it equally valid. See above: you are not Napoleon.

Badpainter
Badpainter
9 years ago

I am more than a bit baffled that the act of holding a door has become a political act.

Maybe it’s just my place of origin and local custom but around here everyone holds doors for everyone else. We call this being polite. There is no implication of game or politics involved. I would also note women of all ages, hold doors for men, of all ages.

Truly baffling, and a bit sad how uncivilized the larger society has become.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

I don’t know if I recall correctly from the billion posts above. Tuff’s 20 year marriage was to a BPD chick, right? It is awfully hard to keep “frame” with a borderline personality disorder girl, most decidedly when you have children with them. I had a short fling with one in the 80’s during medical school. In contrast to Rollo’s contention that it wasn’t in the DSM of psychological disorders. I remember seeing it described in the early 90’s. Could have been on my Doogie Howser amber Interwebs Dos screen at the time. BPD chicks would have it be your… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
9 years ago

@not so Tuff the invisible who is trying so hard to be visible to men and women. you are making it so easy for women to see you as a big Beta. did you know that holding a door for a woman is a failed shit test on your part ? did you know that women shit test a complete stranger even if they are not interested in him ? a man who is holding anything for a woman is viewed by her to be a beta ? slam the door to her face once and twice and trust me… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
9 years ago
Rude Awakening
Rude Awakening
9 years ago

@badpainter I agree. I hold doors/ elevators open for everyone. Men and women. Not for any fucking gain or some hope that she might smile and I have an in. No I do it because it’s a polite thing to do and it’s how I would want to be treated. I don’t give a fuck if it’s beta or alpha or how anybody wants to view it. I do what I want to do and if people don’t like it they can kick rocks. I’ll say this though. In my experience most men have the decency to hold the door… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Water Cannon Boy
9 years ago

Tuffluv you have a lot of buffer zones you’ll have a tuff time breaking through.

Mr T
Mr T
9 years ago

that is the only door that I want to open .

Tilikum
9 years ago

Jesus. It’s simple, written, and the reason i only comment so often.

You can’t give something you don’t have. Few of you (by your posts) have the cred to hold a door without it being seen as Beta.

Please keep doing it and donating the pussy to me.

Thx.

Rude Awakening
Rude Awakening
9 years ago

You’re a legend in your own mind.

Badpainter
Badpainter
9 years ago

Tilikum – “Please keep doing it and donating the pussy to me.”

But I can’t give something I don’t have.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

TuffLuv: If you hold the door, you are sending her the signal that you are the stronger sex.” Rollo: Tuff, the mere fact that you think holding a door for a woman is some form of Game only illustrates your investment in old-order Blue Pill idealism. TuffLuv: how so? Do you know who is most likely to hold a door for me? People who are in my employ, either directly or indirectly (such as a doorman or hostess), and others who recognize themselves as being of inferior social status (strangers often assume I am some sort of officer, even when… Read more »

david
david
9 years ago

Rollo, can you money ever be an arousal component? I assume it is not always beta bucks. I guess I’m wondering what you mean by “his performance is outstanding” (like being good at fighting?). Surely financial success can be alpha and outside of beta bucks. I guess the trick is not being used as a tool financially – i.e. surrending your paycheck and having her be in charge of the finances like some chump. Of course, divorce laws make the beta bucks much more difficult to escape from, but as far as I understand it, not being ruined by her… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
9 years ago

lol. If your Alpha frame hinges on whether or not you hold a door open for someone, you’re doing it wrong.

Same goes with your masculinity.

Last comment section got swamped with rejects from Stormfront, this one seems to be overrun by the Try Hards.

Bluepillprofessor
Bluepillprofessor
9 years ago

Rollo, you need some RPW mods over here because I bet Tuffluv is a Fem Bluepill Troll. The writing style is so feminine you should ask for a handwriting sample and I will put a 50 sot right now that there are smiley faces in the dot over the “i” if you know what I mean. Upthread it was explained that perhaps this is a bit binary. Every man is both Alpha and Beta and only the ratios differ and those ratios can be changed by learning game. Every man (and woman) is on a fuckability scale. However, as also… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
9 years ago

I’m not saying that this discussion is not useful or illustrative, however, I will posit that once you can hold a door open for anyone (doesn’t matter who it is) and not have an internal debate over whether it’s Game/Red Pill/Blue Pill–or even give it a moment’s thought–you have officially arrived on the other shore to the paradise of No Fux Given.

kfg
kfg
9 years ago

I am most likely to open a door from someone when I am approaching it from the hinge side as they approach from the latch side.

It gets me through the door more efficiently.

Jeremy
9 years ago

Alphas walk through doors boldly, you never saw James Kirk hold a door did you?

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

Jesus talk about a sidetrack.

Much ado about jackshit.

melmoth
melmoth
9 years ago

Tuffluv,

Do you live and work in a high-traffic stairwell? How can you have such ‘door game’ as this?

Kamos9
Kamos9
9 years ago

@Badpainter: I still think TuffLuv might be woman.

/thread.

– Over-usage of dude-bro talk.
– Hampster-style response to every single comment.
– Inability to comprehend rational points.

SFC Ton
9 years ago

Personally I reckon women don’t give a fuck about blood kin betas either.

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