Beta Fucks

beta_fucks

I had an interesting experience last Friday. I had finished a good workout and was on my way home when Bebé Tomassi texted me asking if I would pick up a sandwich for her from Subway and bring it to her at a school function. Sure, why not.

I get into the local Subway at around 6:30 pm and it being a Friday night and Subway isn’t the most happening place to be on a Friday, I’m there with only a couple ahead of me in line. The woman looked to be late 20’s, I’d guess 27-28, and not too bad looking – 5′ 9″-10″, blonde – if she’d been dressed better she might rate a 7 on the Tomassi scale. The guy she’s with was thin, short mop of hair, about the same height, maybe around her age.

What made them notable was the gender dynamic between them I picked up on immediately. Within the first 3 minutes of coming up behind them in line the guy had made every Beta tell I think Roissy has a term for. When I got in line he was hugging up on her from behind, leaning in and she stood there like a tree. His posture and body language, as well as his attitude instantly told me this couple’s relational dynamic – he was the qualifying Beta and she was the mouthy, hard-to-please Hyena.

She noticed me when I came up. I was the only other person in Subway and I still had my gym clothes on. Some top 40 crap song came on the overhead and she blathered out, “I hate this shit music. They should put Metallica or Slayer on, that would be funny.” as if she expected the Beta to ask the management to switch stations. She gives me a glance as if offering an opening after that comment. I order my daughters sandwich.

“No! Don’t get me lemonade, it’s too syrupy here, get me diet Dr. Pepper.” she belts out to the Beta dutifully getting their drinks. The sandwich artist asks here what she’d like on her sandwich – reaches over and touches my forearm (IOI, kino) “This might take a while, I’m very choosy”, she says to me in her ‘tone’.

“I’m not in a hurry.”

Sandwiches get made, Beta pays. My girl’s sandwich is done at the same time (she’s not too choosy), and as Alpha Girl and Beta Boy are about to leave she grabs both their sandwiches and mine ‘by mistake’. The Subway cashier stops her to tell her she picked up my sandwich (remember, we’re the only people in the store), Beta puffs a nervous laugh, she looks at me, “Ohh, sorry,..” hands me the bag and holds eye contact just that beat longer than normal.

“Come on we gotta go.”, Beta reaches around her waist, and like the cane that pulls a bad actor off the stage, they exit.

Passive Game

I did nothing to actively Game this girl, she was Gaming herself. I’ve seen this before. There’s a branch of Game (I think Roosh mentions it) that speculates that sometimes girls will Game themselves and all you need to do is not fuck it up. Sometimes less is more; when a woman is already attracted to you, Game becomes remaining aware of the indicators, allowing the proper flow and just presuming the sale.

I preface today’s post with this because it ties in nicely to a particular discussion last week’s post sparked. I’ll admit, being married kind of puts a Man in a ‘nothing to lose’ perspective. A lot of guys like to speculate that a wedding ring makes a man more desirable – it doesn’t. If married men are at all attractive to women it’s not due to some fantasy of preselection by his wife making him more attractive as a long term prospect; it’s because, generally, he’s not actively pursuing women. There’s a certain power in indifference – you’re far more desirable when you aren’t qualifying yourself to women, and no guy is more indifferent than one who knows with all certainty who he’ll be banging that evening.

However, there is also an amplification of attraction and arousal for a more Alpha man when a woman is in a relationship with a man she perceives as Beta. A similar amplification also becomes heightened when a woman is the focus of one or more Beta orbiters. The persistent affirmation by, and supplication of, Beta men puts that Alpha in a spotlight. A constant atmosphere of Beta attention and concern has an effect of preselecting that (more) Alpha Man for a woman. A common complaint many Beta men share is being an emotional tampon for a woman, listening and commiserating with her about the ‘asshole boyfriend’, only to have her desire for him become more amplified and off she goes for her desired sex with him again. The Beta(s) rationalizes this as ‘a moment of weakness’ for his special girl, but is unaware that his constant Beta affirmations contribute to her attraction to that Alpha.

As I stated, I wouldn’t have had to apply much Game to the Subway girl – the Beta boyfriend had already done a lot of the heavy lifting. This particular dynamic is something to remember if you’re Gaming a girl with a boyfriend or a girl who drops a boyfriend disclaimer into casual conversation. A girl’s boyfriend may not be the Beta this guy was, but if he is, let that form the basis of your Game. I should also add that this ‘Beta does the lifting’ dynamic is the root of AMOGing and running boyfriend destroyer Game. You should also be aware when this tactic is being run on yourself.

Husband = Beta

Now before you think I’ve gone completely mercenary, this incident made me think of this comment from last week’s post from Lucas Bly:

So essentially, I’m reading the last four paragraphs of your essay to read:

“She married you because you are a provider, not because she was attracted to you. She’ll never be as attracted to you as she was to her previous Alpha Fucks.”

That’s a tough pill to swallow, my brother.

The issue being, of course, what to do with yourself, and with her, after you discover you got gamed into that kind of marriage.

Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.

In the interests of full disclosure, Lucas had petitioned me earlier about his particular situation being similar to the guy in Saving the Best. What the kid in the Subway made me think of was a wondering if he had at one time been relatively Alpha enough to attract this dominant woman, or if she perceived him in a good provider role. She certainly fit the script of the 27-29 year old woman looking to cash out of the SMP before her attractiveness capital (such as it was) expired. But on the other hand, she wasn’t averse to giving a perceptual Alpha IOIs right under his nose. It’s an interesting passive cuckolding effect.

Lucas’ musings prompted the question: Does an Alpha (perceptually) drop in status for a woman once he’s committed to monogamy with her?

One common situation I get from newly red pill men is that after a few years they find themselves trapped in a sexless marriage or living arrangement and they want to know how to get back to the hot monkey sex they had (or their wives had with previous lovers) in the early stages of their relationship. Once they become red pill / Game aware and realize what they are and how they got there, the next question is how to get back to what he had before.

The question is usually along the lines of “Help Rollo, I used to be really Alpha back in the day, but now my wife sees me as a Beta provider, what do I do?” Virtually every man on the Married Man Sex Life forums looks for a solution there for some variation of this situation, but is it that marriage itself, by it’s very nature predisposes a woman to view her husband in a Beta status? The go-to definition is Beta Provider, not Alpha provider.

Hypergamy being what it is, it’s Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks; if a woman, being the arbiter and decider with whom she will pair-off with in the long term, has agreed to commitment with a man, it would follow that on some level (whether true or not) she believes this man will be a provider and parent for her and future children. So the question then isn’t so much about a man backsliding to Beta after having been considered Alpha enough to fuck the woman who would be his wife, that may be, but rather it’s the familiarity and provisioning that define marriage makes a woman consider him Beta-provider by default.

Dr. Warren Farrell explored this in some of his writing. He posited that the familiarity of marriage predisposes women to consider their husbands as family members, thus the concept of sex with a family member is repelling for women. This is further complicated by parenthood; when boyfriend becomes husband, and then husband becomes Daddy, the family familiarity dynamic makes having sex less and less appealing.

I think there may be something to this, but when you combine it with a fattening and less appealing Daddy, and Mommy, the complex worsens. Thus any strange, outsider, Alpha becomes the stuff of fantasy for women.

Burninator picks up the narrative:

“After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off?

My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped.”

He’s referring of course to the husband in the Saving the Best post. I’m not entirely sure most guys, and especially men with a Beta mindset, are very receptive to the red flag warnings telegraphed by women, but Deti makes a good stab at it:

1. A guy in that situation should take note of the kinds and types of men she was attracted to/fucked before. Huge red flag if you are markedly different from those kinds of men. For example: She used to date guys in shitty bands and small time pro athletes. But she’s now taken quite a shine to mid level business managers and guys with steady jobs. Indicates she’s changing lanes; going for the beta bucks. This woman is for dating; not for marriage.

2. She was a slut with other guys; makes you wait; then when she finally does take the plunge, the sex is of pornstar quality. Seems to be putting on an act; a performer on stage.

3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex.

4. Firmly controls the sex. Won’t do certain things; will have sex only at certain times; doesn’t like certain sexual acts because “only sluts do THAT” and “I don’t want you to think I’m a slut”. Immediately gets up after sex to expel the semen because “I don’t want to get a yeast infection” or to take care of the wet spot.

5. Closely related to this is that she remains in control of herself during sex. Never seems to be completely free or enjoying herself; always assessing her own performance and your evaluation of her sexually.

6. Wants to move rapidly to commitment. Puts out overt and subtle hints that she expects ever increasing investment and commitment in exchange for the sex she’s doling out.

These are pretty good tells for a woman looking to cash out of the SMP with a provider, but again, I’m not entirely convinced that women in the Epiphany Phase of life are reserving these tells exclusively for Beta men.

Validational Sex vs. Transactional Sex

Commenter jf12 brings us to the heart of the matter:

At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming).

It should also be noted that when a female primate does engage in a transactional sex exchange with a Beta male, it’s during the down cycle of her menstruation (point of lowest potential fertility). As with female primates (including humans), when she is in the proliferative phase of her menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation, and the highest potential fertility) her biochemistry predisposes her to seek out the sexual attentions of more Alpha (masculinized) ‘good genes’ males.

I covered this fundamental at length in Schedules of Mating. Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks is the behavioral manifestation of feminine hypergamy and the dualistic nature of women’s sexual strategy as prompted by female biology. From an evolutionary / adaptive species-survival standpoint, women’s sexuality is nothing if not pragmatic and often opportunistic.

Most often when I’m asked the “How do I get my wife to fuck me again?” it’s coming from a man who once thought he had the best his wife had to offer, sexually, emotionally, etc. only to discover she had or still has the potential to be much more than he can coax from her or she’s willing to give to him. Again, I have to come back to the question, does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?

I’ve had the premise that only Beta men consider getting married thrown at me on occasion. I think this presumption may be putting the cart before the horse – maybe, eventually, a man cannot help but be perceived as a Beta by his wife because he is her husband, a parent and provider (or should be). Many divorced men express disbelief when they discover just how wildly sexual their ex-wives can be with their new lovers. They take it as some personal failing that they were unable to bring out the slut in their wives when they were married, but I might argue that their position as husband and father made this impossible for them.

There’s a lot more I could write about this. What do you do if you find yourself in this situation? Leave, divorce, cheat on her? That may be enough to push past that comfortable familiarity. I can think of one married blogger who’s husband cheated on her with the result being her unconditional submission. Dread Game, both overt and soft dread, might cut through that familiarity. Strong Frame control is the lynchpin to a good relationship, ensuring that your SMV is above that of your wife or LTR, and knowing the power this has can keep an Alpha impression functional.

However, in the end, you have to evaluate the worth of changing yourself in order to reestablish that Alpha sex connection. If divorce isn’t an option for you due to religious convictions, then you’ll have to factor that into your evaluation. If not, then you’ll have to consider the depth and importance your commitment means to you versus the effort (or even having to make an effort) you’ll make to reestablish yourself. You’ll need to consider this with all the logic and rationalism at your disposal, divorced from emotional considerations – most times that’s the most difficult part. You’ll want to couch your decision making process based on Relational Equity, but you have to set aside that emotionalism and use cold pragmatism.


232 responses to “Beta Fucks

  • Glenn

    Another fantastic post, thanks. I alpha’d a high smv woman, punching my weight, and married her but she kept trying to beta me which I would alternately fall for and resist. We’d have transactional sex after entering this phase of our relationship for the most part, with the exception of when I would go out after work and come home later than I said I would after having a few drinks (we lived 90 mins outside NYC in the burbs at the time and I’d be out in Manhattan). On these nights we’d invariably have wild sex when I got home – no matter how late or how deeply asleep she’d been. It was an ironclad pattern. Fyi, often on these nights she’d have been pissed off at me earlier in the night for going out instead of coming home which made it more of a mystery to me. Only now do I understand what was going on (far too late).

    I wonder if one thing a married guy can do short of “dread game” is to get busy outside of the house with other social interests? Join a gym, a dart league, get season tickets to a sports team – anything that she isn’t part of that involves being social where other women might be present. Would this be a more subtle version of creating a some dread?

  • Gnarkillicious

    Excellent and helpful article as usual. Non-Gaming has been particularly effective for me and can be for any Alpha who finds themselves standing out in an ocean of Betas.

  • Jedi357

    Poor subway sandwich beta boy. That must have been painful for him to witness! Especially the touch on the forearm. If he saw that and still wanted that woman he is just a pathetic pos. If a woman did that in front of me the only way to make up for it would to submit to my most extreme sexual fetish’s involving dog collars, begging, etc. Otherwise I would walk. I’m sure he just happily ate his sandwich though, just glad to be in her presence. Pathetic pos.

  • Tilikum

    my standard game. great observation.

  • Carlos

    Actually, Rollo hit on this in previous columns. His advice to casually and non-verbally communicate to your wife that, if you wanted to, you could dump her and quickly and easily find a younger, thinner woman to replace her. You communicate this by staying fit, keeping socially active, dressing well, and keeping an active interest in stuff outside the home. Casually and lightly flirt with her girlfriends or other women in the general vicinity. As long as you don’t go too far with it, she won’t mention it, but she will notice. Initiate sex a little less often than she does.

  • Jeremy

    I have memories from childhood of (then not-so-named) aspects of dread game being denigrated in society as immoral or unethical behavior from husbands. However, I think Spengler’s law applies even here. This, to my mind, makes such harsh elements of game not only acceptable, but necessary to use against any woman who would hold the thoughts in her head that might lead to her disrespect of the relationship she committed to.

    Good post Rollo, needs more follow on for the crowd you’re talking to.

  • redpillsetmefree

    Dissenting opinion:

    Why the FRAG do we think these women are worth all these hoops?

    Being married and having enough maturity to realize that you have responsibilities and you need to meet them regularly Betaizes you? So, once you become comfortable and familiar, no more wet panties in your future, so you have to keep dancing the dance to keep HER interested? And you’re coming up with all the resources?

    Meanwhile she’s hitting the Wall, possibly getting fat, and BLEEDING SMV points? She’s worth less as time goes on, and you’re worth more, yet the MAN has to keep gaming??

    I’ll ask it again:
    What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT?

  • xna232stang

    I went through a similar thing. I beta’d hardcore after the marriage. This is coming from a guy who sent his (then) girlfriend home from the bar in a cab so that he could keep partying with his friends…and she didn’t even complain (at the time). Not that that makes me king alpha, but most betas wouldn’t have gotten away with that so I was doing all right for myself.

    Anyway, when this was going on I argued with my wife a lot. I never let her think for a moment that I was okay with the situation. For instance, during one of her drama sessions she asked if I loved her. I didn’t say “no” (though at the time I can’t say I did love her), but I said, “I’m not sure I do.” This drove her nuts, I think because she kept asking me to clarify and I kept stalling because hamsters can be your best friend.

    Finally, we’re having an argument and she stops and says, “Without arguing, let’s tell each other what’s bothering us.” So I unload, in chronological order, all of the bullshit I had to put up with and explicitly laid out why it made her look like an asshole. I think coming face-to-face with this was illuminating for her which helped, because she didn’t know how it looked from an outside perspective. It gave us just a little bit of an edge, like when you’re pulling at a sticker and you get just a bit of the corner to pull up and you use that as leverage to get the rest of it.

    Gaming a wife who’s far gone is incredibly difficult, there’s just too much obstacles in the way of history. If you can get that edge, you can get back on track. I’m currently having sex three times a week minimum (except when she’s on third shift), and really that’s as often as I want it anyway before it starts to lose some of its effect. We can get snippy with each other, with old habits dying hard and all of that, but we’re happier and more satisfied than we’ve ever been. Or she’s a really good actor, either way I’m happy.

    Some tips on getting that corner started: don’t ever settle into a no-sex routine, always push back against it and remind her that you’re not happy with the way things are going. When i was out of town for a while, I came back and my wife was reluctant to have sex (this was after things were “Fixed”). instead of just leaving her alone like a respectful beta, I waited until she was walking past me in the kitchen and put my arms around her and went for a kiss. She moved her face away and kept her hands at her side so I laughed at the absurdity, made some jokes that were situational and i can’t remember but made her laugh, and then manually put her arms around my waist and went for a kiss again. when she turned away again I put my hand around the back of her neck and finally she reciprocated the kiss. After a couple of weeks of patiently waiting by this point, sex was finally had that night and started back on its regular schedule.

    You should also withdraw emotionally. If there’s no sex for no good reason, this can be one of your strongest weapons if she isn’t too far gone and still at least has some feelings for you. Just withdraw emotionally, don’t listen to her stories, don’t have conversations, don’t emote at all in her presence. The only thing she should hear from you is, “Mmmm, hmm.” and “Yup.” or even better: “No.” But don’t look at her when you say these things, always have something more interesting that has most of your attention. Don’t be in the same room with her if you can help it, play video games, work on your car, just be somewhere else. If she starts to get antsy that you’re not around, you have your in but then the only real interaction you should have with her for the most part should be some form of seduction even if you’re not trying to close on it right at that exact moment you have to set the stage. If this doesn’t work, your marriage is probably too far gone, but at least you’ll know.

  • Bachelorocles

    “ is it that marriage itself, by it’s very nature predisposes a woman to view her husband in a Beta status?”

    I could be wrong, but I would say no. Yes — marriage does place a man in a weaker position. A bachelor can walk away and easily move on. I’ve done it dozens of times. But a husband can’t so easily. Divorce law favors the woman and, if there’s children, she can nearly break him – suck half of his property (Heather Mills, “self made” millionaire), take the house, isolate him from the children, and make him pay oppressive alimony and child support. Women know this and men know it too. This gives her the upper hand. Nature also plays a role in that fatherhood lowers a man’s testosterone. But we’re forgetting the will of women to dominate.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/research/13testosterone.html

    I know a couple of married men who’ve maintained alpha status. They are the exception in the US. They rule the roost. They get lots of hot sex. Their wives still swoon over them. And these are good alphas too – upstanding men, honorable, kind and fair to their wives. But they tell me it’s an ongoing battle. They have to use game (and give her good sex) because, they tell me, their wives constantly shit test them and probe them for weakness. And if they’re not careful, she will have him pinned in domestic submission. Women naturally seek to dominate their husbands. They’re human, after all.

    Domestic domination is her natural gift, she evolved to do it and nature has given her the means to do it – a gift of language, a mind that’s lightening quicker, a rationalization hamster that exhausts men into submission, lower testosterone in the hubby, isolation of the hubby from his family and friends, dread game (dread game is moe effective on men than women because men dread infidelity more and infidelity hurts men a lot more and wives play dread game subtly, effectively, and masterfully), and a host of other tools this jedi master of domestic glory has at her disposal. A man reigns supreme on the gridiron, in the legislative assembly, the bar, the courtroom, the battlefield, but at the nest the poor bastard is outgunned.

    The manosphere overlooks the female will to dominate. Female primates have dominating tendencies, as do female wolves. They urinate to mark territory, there’s a strict pecking order among the females, they dominate beta males of the pack, they form alliances. But whereas a male’s style of domination is proudly overt, a woman’s is cunningly covert, highly subtle, and goddamn frightening. As Tony Soprano said to his psychologist: “my father was a man, a killer, her ran his own crew. But that woman [Tony’s mother] eventually rubbed him down to a little nub. He was a fucking gerbil when he died.”

    A wife will attempt to isolate her man from friends and family. She will choose a home close to her family and friends (real estate agents will tell you they always sell to the wife because the wife is the one who ultimately decides). She will subtly isolate him from buddies. In marital disputes, her exquisite gift of language, her quick mind, her emotional disposition, and her rationalization hamster will effectively render most men unable to prevail in any dispute and these disputes will eventually exhaust the poor bastard and cause him eventually to capitulate because the poor guy only wants a little peace at home (what man hasn’t lost his mind arguing with a woman?). The poor bastard will try logic and reason expecting her to be fair. Mistake. As Chris Rock says, “she ain’t in it to make sense. She’s in it for distance and irritation” — she’s in it to exhaust him and dominate him. And she will play dread game. And Rollo, I’m not saying you’re not the man, I’m not saying Subway Slut wasn’t attracted to you (she was) but I strongly suspect she was throwing dread game at her man in her ongoing domestic enterprise of dominating her spawning assistant.

  • Snowy

    Have to say that Bachelorocles’ little essay matches my previously-married marriage experience, and observation of other married women, and women in general. It’s a hard game. Well said, Bachelorocles.

    As for redpillsetsmefree’s question, “What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT?”; it’s really all about the sex. So the real question is, does the sex make it all worth it?

  • Jon

    THere is one thing I have always wondered about. A lot of wives don`t fuck their men around ovulation, just in the non fertile period. That makes sense. However, a bunch of people also report the wives only fucking them when they are ovulating. Presumably the later case is because that is the only time she is really horny anyway. But it does not make sense to then have sex with the Beta. How can one explain the two different patterns.

  • Stingray

    does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?

    Yes and no. By being a husband he has lost some of that air of mystery and excitement. A woman likes to chase a man and capture him. Prove herself and be chosen. I think it’s harder for a husband to maintain that once he marry’s her. However, it can be done. Carlos hits on it a bit above:

    You communicate this by staying fit, keeping socially active, dressing well, and keeping an active interest in stuff outside the home. Casually and lightly flirt with her girlfriends or other women in the general vicinity. As long as you don’t go too far with it, she won’t mention it, but she will notice.

    These actions make her continue to compete, with your friends and with your hobbies. Her goal is to try to get you more interested in her than in these other pursuits. If you let her *win* all the time, there is no chase for her. There is no more competition for her to partake in. If you only let her *win* occasionally it maintains that excitement for her.

    Of course, respect here is assumed. If she doesn’t respect you, none of this really matters because she won’t be interested in chasing you regardless.

  • Acksiom

    >I’ll ask it again: What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT?

    I explained that to you almost a week ago: http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/impressions/#comments

    Bachelorocles just misses the heart of it: the third party in the marriage contract, the community. Marriage is also a contract between the couple on one side and a community on the other. Most if not all communities are now grossly violating that contract in favor of women and against men.

    And that’s what the manosphere really overlooks, because I see more analysis of ‘the female will to dominate’ in the manosphere than anywhere else by far, but effectively no analysis of our communities’ consistent violations of their responsibilities to us in return for what they expect.

  • vinay3543

    The unfortunate reality is a woman wants the biggest slice of the cake that usually brings unhappiness. This large portion comes in the form of a passive nice guy who will give her a weeding day and kids to show off to the world. Once there, she is underwhelmed. As for most men, any little power they did possess in the relationship is thrown away once the knot is tied (unless a pre-nuptial is the sensible choice taken).

    Worth a look at the below link for how women act in this process:

    http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2014/02/women-blaming-baby-burden-blues.html

  • EEGuy

    Also worth mentioning: asset protection.
    Hide and legally protect as much of your money as you can, possibly all. And start as soon as you can, don’t wait until marriage. If you are married, start stashing away money in a hidden, protected emergency divorce fund. Seek out lawyers and accountants to help you. Even if your marriage looks great, do it. Women start preparing for a divorce weeks or months in advance so she can take the most. By the time you are hit with the announcement, she has everything set up already.
    If she can’t rob you of your wealth, she won’t have that much of an upper hand on you. Also, it’s easier for you to keep frame if you know that you won’t be financially shafted in the rear in case of a divorce.
    In My humble opinion, the fact that she can rip you off for everything you have (thus virtually holding a gun to your head) is one of the biggest contributing factor in her seeing you as weak, as a beta who is beneath her. Think about it: you are at her mercy. If you are at her mercy, you are not strong enough, you are weaker than her.
    Asset protection and the methods mentioned in the comments above (to keep her on her toes) will solidify you in the dominant position.

  • jf12

    “Again, I have to come back to the question, does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?” Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There is no other answer.

    I believe it is indeed ONLY Dread game that can make a familiar husband more alpha to his wife, but too-active Dread is identical to abuse. Rollo, you mentioned Passive game “I wasn’t doing nothing!” concerning the Subway hyena. Is there a version of Passive Dread that doesn’t necessarily involve strange women making passes at you in front of your wife? I’m begininng to suspect not.

  • BC

    As for redpillsetsmefree’s question, “What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT?”; it’s really all about the sex. So the real question is, does the sex make it all worth it?

    Correction: The implied promise of sex, which may or may not be delivered upon at the whim of the woman concerned.

    Remember Briffault’s Law.

    Marriage, cohabitation and other forms of exclusive commitment, especially when subjected to unequal law a la Marriage 2.0, establish betahood as the default setting. If you are alpha enough to break and/or stay out of the Marriage Friend Zone, good for you, but the default is betahood.

    Always Briffault’s Law.

  • jf12

    Re: bananas and grooming. I’m starting to think (and everyone sighs relief and says “Finally!”) that one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him backrubs.

    If even after educating her she still resists, then there may be no other solution at all than rubbing her nose in it with Active Dread.

  • Stingray

    one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him back rubs.

    Unless she is extremely religious and was raised that way; NO. You are making the familiar mistake in assuming men and women think the same way. We decidedly do NOT.

    If you try to explain this idea of having to submit to most women they will simply look at you with disgust and begin the shaming language, “Oppressor!” Submission is synonymous with doormat today.

    You can’t explain it to her. You have to make her feel it; inspire it from her (over a period of time you might be able to explain it to some women after you’ve demonstrated the behavior). Telling a woman she has to submit to an inferior man is like telling a man he has to have sex with a 400 pound woman.

  • Johnycomelately

    I guess that means cohabitation is better than marriage, perpetual dread game and only provisional provider.

    Interestingly long term cohabitations fail four times more often than marriage.

  • Musselwhite

    Regarding long term cohabitation failing four times more than marriage: I think much of that has to do with the woman not getting her marriage box checked in a timely manner as well as married men being far more reluctant to break it off.

    I imagine these two factors to be more salient than marriage’s marvelous intrinsic ability to keep people together.

  • girlwithadragonflytattoo

    Wow that woman! Yuck! I wonder if she would’ve been dressed better if he’d been an alpha. Poor man, every man needs game.

  • redpillsetmefree

    @Acksiom
    I read what you wrote last week. And I disagree.

  • YOHAMI

    Yes, a man is less attractive to a woman after he has committed to her.

    The man is less attractive to the woman with each love proof and each act of caring and devotion.

    Just like the woman is less attractive after you have had sex with her.

    Or like a meal is less attractive when your stomach is full.

    But attraction is only part of the game. Balance it with comfort. Whenever you provide comfort you reduce attraction. Whenever you provide attraction you reduce comfort. Tension needs a release, and the release loses its value if there’s no tension preceding it. You cant live forever in a state of attraction, and you shouldnt aim to live in a state of comfort – ever.

    Women need to be attracted to you or they wont respect you. If the man commits, something else has to be on the plate once that part of the uncertainty is taken of the way. More commitment and more pleasing behavior is not going to increase attraction but decrease it. Inject adrenaline in other ways, do other attractive stuff, create tension, make it interesting.

  • talprofs

    @Rollo — Another great blog:
    ‘… Dr. Warren Farrell explored this in some of his writing. He posited that the familiarity of marriage predisposes women to consider their husbands as family members, thus the concept of sex with a family member is repelling for women…’

    I actually had this objection levelled at me by my wife: that I reminded her too much of her father for her to desire me sexually! WFT??!! It is worth noting that our son was a small boy at the time, but her *reasoning* for not wanting to have sex with me never changed.

    @Bachelorocles — On point and well-put:

    ‘A wife will attempt to isolate her man from friends and family. She will choose a home close to her family and friends (real estate agents will tell you they always sell to the wife because the wife is the one who ultimately decides). She will subtly isolate him from buddies.’

    My wife did just this to me during the course of 20 years (although I was never that close to my family in any event, nor particularly fussed about where I lived).

    :: No man is an island ::

    Little, by little, all the friends I had known since my schooldays were *weeded-out* as being unsuitable in some way and not conducive to the well-being of the family unit (ie for her sense of well-being, derived from her fear that they might have influence over me at odds with hers).

    A tragedy of my betatised weakness was that I ended up having a futile argument with one of these friends (whom my wife wholeheartedly disapproved of) over a pathetic trifle, and I cut myself off from him.

    He died last year, and I never took the chance to reconcile myself to him before his death; I have difficulty coming to terms with this, and I blame myself.

    :: A beta’s home is not his castle ::

    A little over 10 years ago, I moved to a small, dull town in the south-east of England, ostensibly to have a little more space in terms of bang for my bucks, and also to improve the quality of life for my wife and son — but, of course, not for me.

    Curiously, the town chosen happened to be where a beta-orbiter who had worked with my wife also lived, with his family in close proximity (mine were not).

    Matters were complicated by the fact that my family and I stayed with him for a year while we purchased a small house. During this period, I spent a great deal of time working away in London … make of that what you will!

    Only now, that my wife has left me to work and live abroad, and my marriage is at an end, do I begin to wonder and reflect on how the machinations worked for all those years, and I how I so willingly allowed myself to be duped.

    As my ex-father-in-law once said: ‘You can only afford to get so smart at any given time.’ Certainly, I am now both wiser and poorer.

    On a positive note, I have a very small number of loyal friends whom I have known for a long time, and I make much more of an effort to see them and talk to them then I ever did when I was enthralled to my wife.

    I am under no illusion that it will take me some time to recover — but I at least now see that recovery is possible; I would not acknowledge this for a very long time.

    So many men waste so many years attempting to come up to scratch for a woman that they either believe or are told to believe is *worth it* — the ultimate game of self-deception.

  • Lion

    Is there anything that the well established Beta Boy in Subway could have done differently that night to change the situation into his favor? I suspect that he was rather checkmated at that point, and he would have to leave Subway acknowledging that he was defeated , and he would have to start a new more Alpha game from that moment onward (providing he’s not totally oblivious, which he obviously is).

  • jf12

    @Stingray Re: “You can’t explain it to her. You have to make her feel it” yes, but. Hope springs eternal. I imagine that a hypothetical intelligent woman could be at least curious enough and honest enough within herself to admit that some of her feelings are caused by her behaviors rather than merely the other way around, and that therefore she could choose to engage in behaviors (that necessarily she doesn’t already want to) in order to change her feelings. And thus to get rid of some of the feelings of contempt and disrespect to her husband, she could choose to treat him (at least somewhat) more like a primate alpha male, thereby making both of them feel better.

    Or is rational self-interest too much to ask of a woman, if it involves her elevating her husband?

  • YOHAMI

    The explanation can come after she has accepted it as an (emotional) fact. At that point, though, for her it’s just common sense and no explanation is needed.

    A rational explanation after the fact, in some cases, can kill the magic for her.

    Pretending that a woman understands the world in man’s rational terms is like pretending that a man understands the world with a female range of emotions. Its non necessary and if you achieve it you’re probably destroying the subject during the experiment.

  • jf12

    Re: Yohami and comfort and attraction. The opposite of comfort is danger, and the opposite of attraction is revulsion. Attractive danger is attractive strange, while revulsive comfort is revulsive familiar. Starting from comfort and trying to get away from too much comfort, one has to introduce more danger specifically, not attraction specifically. One never wants to get away from “too much” attraction, but definitely away from too much danger.

  • superslaviswife

    On validational vs transactional sex: the one who is the least ragingly horny in a relationship will control which way the sex leans. I have a pretty intense libido and my fiance is incredibly attractive to me. Ergo, he has more control over sex, even though we co-habit and are for all intents and purposes living as a married couple. I’d suggest that that is the key difference between alphas, perceived alphas (remember, a high-ranking beta is some girl’s perfect guy, the same way an attractive 8 is some guy’s perfect 10) and alpha-come-beta, perceived beta and true beta is that the alphas are still in control. An alpha may hand over control of the money to a housewife and she will dutifully spend carefully, buy his treats, ask for permission before using his money on things for herself and save every penny that’s left. A beta loses his money: she buys what she wants, forgets his treats and carelessly spends down to the last penny, then complaining she wasn’t given enough. The cause of the different behaviours, in that example and most others, can be traced directly back to sexual control.
    The woman who’s with a beta perceives him as a weak male and a source of resources. She does not guard his resources well because they are not hers. She does not consider his needs because she can get away with it. She buys her own treats because it’s his job to provide for her. He will stay no matter what and, even if he doesn’t, he’s nothing special, he is replaceable.
    The woman who’s with an alpha perceives him as a strong male and a source of resources. She guards his resources as her own, because they must support her for as long as possible. She considers his needs because she wishes to be in his favour. She asks before spending his resources unnecessarily on herself, as they are not hers in anything more than principle. He is high quality and she will do anything to keep him. He is irreplaceable.
    The consequences or lack thereof may be imagined. A beta can easily kick a woman out for wasting his money and an alpha in the wrong situation could behave like a chump. She may lose her beta and never get a chance with another man of reasonable quality ever again. She may lose her alpha and find another alpha quickly. But her imagined scenarios reflect her opinion of the males: one is a replaceable source of resources. The other is an irreplaceable mate and provider. A well versus a river.

    Both are providers, but the alpha (without even doing anything) can keep her doing what’s best for them both, whereas the beta can’t keep her under control. This is because, when with a beta, she perceives herself as the catch. With some betas the cause may be lost: she could genuinely be a better specimen of humanity than he is. But with many, especially with alpha-come-beta types, it’s down to sexual marketing. If he is continually asking for sex and she is able to frequently turn him down, she realizes what control she has and starts to use it. She may even begin to reject sex when she wants it, to retain control. Sex has become her “currency” and she will control it well, in an attempt to make it appreciate in value. This way she has him under her thumb without having to behave in a traditional wifely manner. A horny man who isn’t having much (or any) sex can quickly become a chump for whatever female wants him, especially when his mate-pool consists of one woman and his access to porn is restricted (nagging, filter, fear of losing her). Many females, once they have the upper hand, will not let it go, fearful of returning the reins to such a weak male. They can’t trust him. Most get stressed quickly and don’t like this arrangement, they just see no other solution. From his weakness comes her abuse, finally peaking when she starts taking-on alphas for sex. Once she can use other men to relieve sexual tension he has lost all control and becomes a wallet on legs. To win her back he would have to start from zero.
    However, the male who keeps control over sex will maintain the upper hand. She can never use sex as a bargaining chip. She has to prove her worth in another way because, for her, best case scenario is that he is the provider and sex is on equal grounds, but worst case scenario is that he is the provider and the gate-keeper to sex. She will, therefore, up her game if she has any intention of keeping him, because his value has been incremented and hers has been diminished. By being a good, dutiful housewife, lover and motherly figure (only just enough to imply she’d mother his children well, though!) she is repaying him for his provisions. Because of this, the chain of loss of control never gets started and he will always be the male who gets ‘bananas and grooming’ for sex, rather than having to pay HER for the attention.

  • superslaviswife

    TL;DR: Don’t let a woman think sex is the only thing she has to give you to be a good wife. Don’t let her take control of sex and use it to bargain with. Keep an upper or equal hand in terms of sexual interactions and you’ll have a woman who’s eager to repay you by being a wife to your provider.

  • YOHAMI

    “And thus to get rid of some of the feelings of contempt and disrespect to her husband, she could choose to treat him (at least somewhat) more like a primate alpha male”

    Say you dislike Obama. How does it make you feel if you’re told you should treat him like the most grand and wise leader of the world, and that by you doing so he’ll actually do a better job?

    How about if he’s the one making that request?

    * * *

    Some dynamics only work with parents-kids and after you removed hierachy. Treat your son like he’s a king and he might become one. Look past his flaws and he might be able to get rid of them.

    The male-female hierarchy cannot be removed though, as its intrinsic part of the dynamics. The woman needs to look up to you for her to feel attraction and respect you, she needs you to lead and needs you to be more stable and determined than she is, or she will lose attraction and disrespect you. Just look at that like that’s her part of the dance, because it is.

    Just like men with their leaders. Bad leaders cause revolts. You cant stop the revolts by asking the population to be more understanding and nicer.

  • LucasBly

    Rollo, this is a surprisingly self-deprecating answer to my original question. Thank you for the thoughtful internal reflection, and for talking me (and who knows how many other frustrated married men) off the proverbial cliff that Saving the Best left us teetering on.

    What I’m reading you write here today, is that marriage kills sex for every man, and especially fathers. This (reassuringly) is not necessarily due to a character failure of the man, but as a natural consequence of marriage.

    Now you’re stepping dangerously close to traditional marriage counselling territory. One might rephrase an interpretation of today’s post as “it’s not necessarily that you’re not having crazy monkey sex because you’re a Beta, it’s just that you stopped gaming your wife”.

    If we accept that the sex in every marriage will eventually cool, that a married man will never enjoy the same sex his wife was having before she met him (re: Saving the Best), and that her hypergamic nature will always drive her to search for a more Alpha man to replace you with, I agree a newly red pill aware man’s only choices when finally faced with this bitter reality are either scorched earth / divorce and hope the next relationship is better, or become more Alpha than all the other guys on your block, start gaming your wife again, and improve your current marriage. If that’s true, that the only choices are divorce and start over or develop your married game, an evolved man must ask… which choice is the way of the coward, and which is truly Alpha?

    Can a game aware Beta provider learn to position himself as his wife’s personal Alpha?

    Can a previous Alpha beaten Beta through marriage, reincarnate himself as the family Alpha?

    Is an unattached Alpha better or worse than a married Alpha, or are they both game aware men on a continuum?

    My presumption, is that you include your own wife among those married women who will “never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha”, bringing this post very close to home.

    Since you are yourself a married man writing these words, that seems evidence enough that you must have chosen to put in the work required to position yourself as the Alpha in your relationship. Your own choice is obvious. As someone who admires your work, I will take that as a vote suggesting Married Alpha is the choice worth fighting for.

  • redpillsetmefree

    I’ll say it again:
    Today’s men suffer so greatly from low self-esteem until they can’t even see it any more.
    You’re spending your life chasing and trying to please a creature who is doing nothing but taking your resources as fast as she can….and the more you try and please her, the more you guarantee she will soon be opening her legs to someone else.
    And for what? For the few moments of pleasure she gives you with that messy smelly fur trap that is her crotch….and you’ll never know how many other people she’s really had there, nor how much she is acting or faking or what she’s actually thinking about while you’re having sex.
    And there are actually men in the Sphere fighting Game….still believing that somehow without it, you can come out victorious against the natural predator that is the female. A woman navigating and manipulating relationships is as natural to her as sharks moving through the water….and girls practice their skills all of their lives, that’s why they are ever ready for the kill.

    Best comment I’ve read so far has been the one on asset protection. That is the smartest approach given our need for sex and what it makes us do, in the current social and legal climate that exists in the West.

  • Marky Mark

    Seems like too much work… rather just avoid marriage altogether.

  • Stingray

    jf12,

    Yes, it happens, but it’s rare. I would strongly recommend to any man to never bank on that happening.

    But it’s also as Yohami says, she has to accept it as an emotional fact. I would argue with this point, however, At that point, though, for her it’s just common sense and no explanation is needed.

    Today, this is rare. A woman might be married to a dominant man but be pulled in the opposite direction by the female herd. Her instincts might say, submit and respect this man; keep the tests to a minimum, but the women around her and our culture expects her to test and to exert her influence and dominance on him. She will do that to follow the herd and not her husband because the two instincts to herd and submit are at odds. In this instance, at least an expectation should be given to stop the testing and show respect. Then she can begin to herd around her husband and not the women around her.

    Some women do very well with an explanation and the mystery is not lost (I know how dominance and attraction work quite well but my husband can still get me every single time even though I know very well what he is doing. I’ve heard other women say the same. I would never count on this occurring, though). But I believe that either the explanation needs to come from a dominant man whom she respects or other women. Other women will give her another herd to participate in while a dominant man whom she loves will can be the only herd she needs, as well.

  • redpillsetmefree

    TL:DR-
    Game is not optional if you’re a man dealing with a woman in *any* capacity, not just romantically.
    Girl Game is both natured and nurtured into them…this is why Guy Game is a requirement.
    Protect your assets. They’re YOURS.

  • walawala

    Great post. I just had a conversation with the girl I’m banging. She’s a cute 7, divorced, not that much experience with guys. But she related a story about how some time ago she was with a “hot friend” in a bar and some guy bought them drinks and then said “I like you, come over to my place.” My girl was laughing about this…while in bed with me.

    She found the whole idea of such lame overt displays of desperation laughable—after having just blown me and then banging our brains out.

    The contrast was funny to me too.

    I also thought about that dynamic. This guy sees two hot girls, wants to bang either of them, buys them a drink and then blurts out to one that he likes her and invites her back.

    Game is really that knowledge and set of tools that make that awkwardness smooth—it’s a bridge that helps that awkward horny guy a smooth, in-control man who knows what he wants, stimulates the woman with a series of stimuli: neg, push-pull, cocky-funny, comfort/vulnerability then bang.

    I’ve banged girls I’ve just met after doing that series of steps online. This poor beta buying random girls drinks and awkwardly blurting out how he likes them and wants to take one home is how most guys spend their lives until some girl probably out of desperation says “ok”.

  • jf12

    @Yohami re: “destroying the subject during the experiment.” Yes, but, since the desired *effect* of the experiment is to change her, it seems to me that one good way to achieve the change is to tell her you’re merely experimenting …

    The purpose of nondestructive testing/experiments is to gather information without effecting (permanent) change in the subject.

  • YOHAMI

    jf12,

    The opposite of comfort is danger, and the opposite of attraction is revulsion. Attractive danger is attractive strange, while revulsive comfort is revulsive familiar. Starting from comfort and trying to get away from too much comfort, one has to introduce more danger specifically, not attraction specifically. One never wants to get away from “too much” attraction, but definitely away from too much danger

    True, I wasnt making a case about opposites though. Attraction and comfort nullify, but also increase each other when done in a cycle.

    When you’re an awesome man and girls on a social environment are checking you out and competing for your attention, your woman feels danger, but she also feels attraction. When you validate her with an “I love you” and hold her hand, you provide comfort. That comfort is multiplied by the danger mix, and has more value than when you do the same in a safer environment. And it can have zero value if all you do is giving her that kind of comfort at all times.

    Too much attraction would be that you dont give her reassurance when all the girls are checking you out, and you even drop her to interact with the other women. If she doesnt receive comfort, she’ll look for it somewhere else, and attempt to make you pay a price for it. So yeah, there’s such “too much attraction”

  • jf12

    @Stingray, thxs, food for thought … “(I know how dominance and attraction work quite well but my husband can still get me every single time even though I know very well what he is doing. I’ve heard other women say the same. I would never count on this occurring, though).” In pursuit of Practice game, in order to build up an abundance mentality for myself and to prepare for the potentially necessary overt active Dread game of actively picking up another woman in front of my wife, I have done Game game: I tell a woman up front that I just want to practice picking her up and I don’t actually mean to go through with anything. So far they’ve all seemed to enjoy it even though they knew very well what I was doing. The punchline is that it has worked every single time: the women do actually get picked up in the sense of becoming a lot more attracted and wanting to go further than I want to.

  • jf12

    @Yohami re: Obama. The point is, treating Obama like a better leader does not automatically make him a better leader. But a woman treating a man like her alpha DOES make him her alpha because that is how I define an alpha: by how women treat him.

  • YOHAMI

    “I tell a woman up front that I just want to practice picking her up and I don’t actually mean to go through with anything.”

    Women love that

  • jf12

    @Yohami, again, if you’re dissatisfied with the tautology, consider it an experiment. Then the hypothesis is “If the woman treats the man like her alpha, he will be her alpha.”

  • YOHAMI

    jf12, it would make him a more dominant (better on an emotional level) leader. My point though is what do *you* *feel* when the request is made, and a woman would have that feel multiplied by a hundred, sans the analytical practical part.

    If she has to treat him like a better man for him to be a better, man, her gut will tell her she should actually get a better man and she’s wasting her time here.

  • jf12

    Re: “Too much attraction would be that you dont give her reassurance when all the girls are checking you out, and you even drop her to interact with the other women. If she doesnt receive comfort, she’ll look for it somewhere else, and attempt to make you pay a price for it. So yeah, there’s such “too much attraction.”” You may be right; it never occurred to me since I can’t imagine all the girls checking me out. Ok, so maybe the key dynamic balance (I like the concept of a dynamic balance as opposed to a static balance) is offering her comfort out of a position of danger, rather than offering her danger out of a position of comfort.

    One way to achieve the position of danger is passive game as Rollo described.

  • jf12

    Re: telling her. Since when it happens I will have I told her I was picking up a woman in front of her specifically to change her feelings, does that make the Dread even more effective or less effective than if I didn’t tell her what I was doing?

  • Glenn

    @ LucasBly – I’ve greatly enjoyed your interlocution on this topic and I had a thought that I wanted to share with you. Fyi, I’m just another bozo on the bus here, so I’m very eager to hear Rollo’s commentary, but I guess part of what I want to say is that I think Rollo already answered your question. In fact, I think you know the answer but for maybe you don’t want to face it. Perhaps, ultimately, you are struggling to kill your own Beta, at the core of all this?

    Internal game seems to me to be about valuing yourself more and your wife/lover/women in general less. It’s also about seeing through the illusions of romantic/courtly love and chivalric idea of manhood but then a deeper question comes up. What I’d like to know is what would make you happy? Are you so used to suppressing what you actually want and enjoy in life that this isn’t easy to get to? Clearly your marriage does not make you happy in its current form. At the end of the day, It seems to me your choices are pretty straightforward. Stay in the marriage as it’s currently constituted, being Beta and unhappy. Or develop game and internalize it and alpha up and have a chance at being happy. With or without your wife. Given my failed marriage and the similarity to your scenario in some ways, I do feel your pain, but I also see the futility of maintaining your current course. The only path forward to happiness for YOU – with or without your wife – is to put the focus back on your happiness and your desire and your life. At least that’s how it seems to me.

    I’m also struck by the RedPillness of this all. It’s hard to digest the Red Pill, to see what’s really going on between men and women and perhaps most of all, how we have internalized all this and fucked ourselves. For me, this journey is first and foremost about going inside myself and recapturing my self-love and self-respect. Maybe that means stopping at a bookstore on the way home from work tonight and picking up that book you’ve been wanting to read for 3 yrs but never took the time to. And when you get home, instead of falling into whatever routine you normally have, you take your dinner and go off and read all night because that’s what you want to do. Maybe it’s stopping at a bar and trying to flirt with a woman to see if you’ve still got it. Maybe it’s negging your wife a bit or jumping into Dread Game full bore to begin changing the dynamic in your marriage right now. But whatever it is, to my thinking, it’s about becoming more self involved, more self-serving and less about her and your marriage. My two cents and again, thanks so much for the great commentary.

  • YOHAMI

    jf12,

    “If the woman treats the man like her alpha, he will be her alpha.”

    Situationally, it’s a flip coin. Give power to a beta and you’ll see the “natural alpha behaviors” emerge, cockiness, self amusement, dominance, etc, and he’ll be more attractive. Some men will be confused and try to play the safer game they already know.

    The alpha though, shines not when things are good but in times of trouble, when nature tests you, and when a woman tests you. All the attraction the beta built when things where going good and he was a situational alpha, vanishes when the shit hits the fan and he retreats – while the truer alpha, or more natural, or more self reliant, the “I dont give a fuck how you want to treat me, this is how you treat me or Im gone”, dominant persona, only gains more attraction when the shit hits the fan and he keeps his composture and presses harder through the turmoil.

    Alpha, at the core, doesnt need shit or reassurance and doesnt need a throne, he *takes* such things and make such things happen. His own status is less dependent on external factors like the acceptance of others, which makes others accept him more.

  • Stingray

    jf12,

    For goodness sake, DO NOT tell her you were picking up other women to change her feelings. She will most likely highly resent it. She will most likely see it from a woman’s point of view, not as logic and she will think you are rubbing it in her face.

    If she figures it out on her own, that’s fine. She will like that because she has figured out part of the mystery that is you. Women love to *figure* out their men.

  • Stingray

    So far they’ve all seemed to enjoy it even though they knew very well what I was doing.

    Yeah, they enjoyed it because they were chosen. They won the competition. It’s not really the same thing.

  • jf12

    Re: her resenting my being able to rub it in her face. That’s kind of the point, though.

  • Stingray

    jf12,

    What’s your goal? Alpha to your wife or to prove a point? Resentment from a woman to her husband very often means a loss of respect.

  • jf12

    @Stingray, explain how a woman resenting that a beta is acting more alpha means her losing respect, keeping in mind that she had negative respect to begin with.

  • YOHAMI

    Resentment always comes with a payback.

  • Stingray

    You assume that she is going to see that as alpha because you see it as alpha. She won’t, most especially if you are coming from a place of negative respect.

    As I said before, she will see it from a woman’s point of view. What that means is, she will perceive this as a womanly behavior coming from you. She will perceive it as effeminate and not masculine.

    Now, if you wanted to tell her in a number of years, when your alpha status is well established and you did it in a cocky funny way, that would probably be fine. To do this in any other way, is only going to make things worse. It will make her question your masculinity.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    “If the woman treats the man like her alpha, he will be her alpha.”

    I think this is the internal conflict married (or LTR) women have with the guy they pair with – women need a resolution of their hypergamy, so even when they know the guy they pair with is Beta (by default or otherwise) outwardly they construe him as Alpha. Only the most desperate or self-realistic women (usually Hyenas) will expressly admit their husband is a Beta, and usually only after he’s passed the point where she’s actively seeking means and methods to abandon or replace him.

    Until then, building their Beta husband into a (paper) Alpha is an ego preservation schema.

    @Lucas, have you read Up the Alpha yet:

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/

    Working from Beta to Alpha with a woman who’s already intimately familiar with your personality will always be a more difficult task than beginning from an Alpha frame and tempering it with measured acts of Beta comfort.

    It’s not impossible, and I would suggest that applying soft dread, gradually, will be more believable than a blunt overt attitude of overt dread game. Form a guy who’s been a Beta for the duration of his marriage, overt dread comes off as an ultimatum; soft, progressive dread, implies an internal shifting of priorities. You want her to think “he’s changed,..” rather than “he’s just doing this because he’s pissy I wont fuck him.”

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/13/soft-dread/

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/07/ultimatum/

  • jf12

    I still think that if I were a woman that I’d resent my husband flirting with women regardless, but I would resent it less if he told me he was doing it for my benefit.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    You cannot make appeals to a woman’s reason and expect her genuine change because of the strength of your arguments:

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/07/appeals-to-reason/

    Neither can you explain the mechanics of Game or your overt motives with a woman and expect a genuine change. Demonstrate, never explicate:

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/12/30/secret-of-the-red-pill/

  • YOHAMI

    Lets say 2 weeks from now she starts flirting with other men in front of you.

    What’s going to be your mindset?

  • Trev Duckman

    Just to add to your comment about women gaming themselves:

    In these situations the woman often wants Alpha behaviour, and Roissy’s maxim about erring on the side of boldness can be of critical importance. Sitting back and being too relaxed could see you losing out on an easy lay.

    “Nothing dries the vag quicker than beta behaviour”

  • Stingray

    You are still thinking like a man and not like a woman. We simply do not think that way (unless taught. You are not in a position to teach right now).

    Take a look at what Rollo wrote above at 12:30. It’s very relevant to what you are talking about and the word he chose is perfect as well. Coming from a place of negative respect, what you are talking about doing comes across as prissy.

    Let me see if I can explain this better. You have negative respect because you’ve had/have your wife up on a pedestal. You’ve placed her above yourself. Trust me when I tell you that we hate that. Telling her that you are doing this for her, keeps her on that pedestal.

    Improve for yourself and because you’re a man and that’s what men do. Maybe you are stuck thinking this is selfish? It’s not. You can still love and take care of your wife from this position, it’s just that taking care of her means giving her what she needs, not what she wants. She does not need you to explain this to her. She just needs to respect you.

  • jf12

    Re: “Lets say she starts flirting” and some of the other recent comments. She’s never lacked for male attention, and therefore she never encourages it because it would be pointless, like trying to make air more airy. In total contrast, I’ve always previously lacked for female attention, and therefore I never encouraged it before because it would have been pointless. So much so, I figure she would be almost (but not quite) as surprised by seeing another woman’s attentions towards me as she would be surprised by seeing me encouraging it.

    But I’m too squeamish about her thinking I’m actually trying to cheat to merely flirt without prior explanation. Hence I’ve been immobilized, hoping vainly that my too-soft and impotent Dread might passively attract something.

  • YOHAMI

    Improve for yourself and because you’re a man and that’s what men do. Maybe you are stuck thinking this is selfish? It’s not.

    for the win

  • Rollo Tomassi

    You’ve placed her above yourself. Trust me when I tell you that we hate that. Telling her that you are doing this for her, keeps her on that pedestal.

    Women would rather be objectified than idolized. This is an important red pill maxim. After I’ve had particularly good sex with Mrs. Tomassi, I tell her “she’s my pornstar”. On the surface that’s one degree away from telling her she’s my slut, but in our relationship’s context she takes it as a compliment with a smile.

    When that comes from an Alpha frame it’s a compliment, from a Beta frame it’s offensive.

  • YOHAMI

    She’s never lacked for male attention, and therefore she never encourages it

    Right, but what if 2 weeks from now she starts encouraging it / letting other guys picking her up / approaching attractive men herself – as a payback for your recent changes, maybe disguised as “if you do it, so can I”.

    What’s going to be your mindset?

  • jf12

    Given that danger and comfort are opposite ends of a one-dimensional spectrum, what are some of the orthogonal lines in the geometrization of attraction? Donalgraeme’s LAMPS vectors might help, even though he left off danger and comfort.

  • jf12

    “When that comes from an Alpha frame it’s a compliment, from a Beta frame it’s offensive.” Exactly. Hence it can’t be used to change out of a beta frame.

  • LucasBly

    @Glenn – Thank you, sir, it’s nice to know someone is listening. I agree with your analysis, and have (intentionally and unintentionally) taken many of the steps you’ve prescribed.

    Once rings are exchanged, it naturally follows from Rollo’s analysis that every man, regardless of his previous Alpha status, will require a maturing and development of his frame, to survive the inevitable status change that occurs after marriage.

    Rollo excuses her contributions as a natural expression of her hypergamy. She’s not a bad person, necessarily, she’s just doing what women do – even after marriage.

    Essentially, a married man never knows what he’s getting into, cannot know, until he gets there – because the very nature of marriage is Beta.

    I have no disagreement with you on the prescription; focus on self is the obvious cure for what ails a married man.

    My real struggle, and perhaps I’m projecting, but I imagine also the struggle of other married men abruptly exposed to this truth, is this question: if and when I succeed in finally killing my Beta, is there still a place in my new red pill aware life, for that woman I happen to have married long ago?

    I suppose every man must answer this riddle for himself, based on the quality of woman he married and her chance of success at re-learning how to be the Red Pill Wife her man needs, once he finally grows a pair.

    I was going to write more, but I’m really not sure what to add. So maybe I’ll just drop the question here and let it simmer for a while.

  • jf12

    Re: “What’s going to be your mindset?” She does a lot of visual designs. One of her main jobs prior to getting married was as a photo editor doing layouts. Anyway she happens to have a lot of male followers on Instagram etc. She shares with me some of potential concern, like a recently divorced billionaire that she knew when they were young who posts pictures of himself doing supposedly exciting things like squeezing the kumquats in a market in Marrakesh and then asks her advice like “Should I makes these kumquats more reddish-orange or should I leave them to be orangey-red?” My current response tends towards the dismissive, although previously it may have been more jealous.

  • jf12

    “the very nature of marriage is Beta.” yes. No doubt.
    ” if and when I succeed in finally killing my Beta, is there still a place in my new red pill aware life, for that woman I happen to have married long ago?” This is the question. I have no answer, but I suspect not.

  • Stingray

    Are you focusing on other things besides using Dread? Diet, gym, frame, etc?

    I figure she would be almost (but not quite) as surprised by seeing another woman’s attentions towards me as she would be surprised by seeing me encouraging it.

    Surprised is not always a bad thing. It might be a pleasant surprise for her. And if you are doing the other things to improve yourself, you might find that you don’t have to encourage female attention. You might just get it. When it happens, all you have to do is not discourage it. You don’t have to be doing anything beyond having a conversation and you wife will notice the body language that other women are throwing at you. The woman you are having a conversation with you will do all the work. This is soft dread and a very good place for you to start.

    But I’m too squeamish about her thinking I’m actually trying to cheat to merely flirt without prior explanation.

    This tells me you are asking for her permission. The goal is for you to become the leader so you need to get out of this mindset as quickly as possible.

  • Stingray

    Women would rather be objectified than idolized.

    Absolutely, as long as it’s from a higher value man than herself.

    Woman want to be claimed (again, by a high value man). My husband likes to call me, “Woman”. I love it. It implies that I’m his. It’s the same with Mrs. Tomassi. She’s been claimed. She won the competition (a competition, I might add, we want to keep winning).

    However, if you ask or even imply being claimed to a woman who is with a man she doesn’t see as higher value than herself, she will revile this claiming.

    I’ve talked to quite a few women are married to men they deeply respect and to a one, each is proud to be claimed.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I’m always hesitant to use my own marriage as any kind of template for other men to follow. My circumstances, my talents, my career, physique and status aren’t what any other man’s might be.

    If I’m Alpha in any degree it came from a learning process more than my natural leaning. As I stated in Recursive Game, it’s not an effort I make to be so anymore, it’s simply who I am now. Maintaining Frame should never be a game of Whack-A-Mole for a guy, at some point it has to become who he is and his wife or the plates he spins will spin themselves in response to it.

    @Lucas, don’t think of it as ‘excusing’ women’s predispositions, you only add a degree of moralism to what should simply be an objective and pragmatic assessment of what motivates her behavior.

    Is it a pretty fucked up situation? For sure, but now you know better and appealing to a woman’s sense of moralism to get her to desire you is as useful as appealing to her reason to negotiate for her desire.

    Nothing is more terrifying, yet stimulating for a woman than a Man who is self-aware of his on value. Increase your value, is a really hard thing for men to hear and accept, especially when what’s motivating them (sex with the same woman) isn’t worth the effort.

  • david

    The only way to be sure of not being a beta in a marriage is to not care about her divorcing you. In other words, come into marriage with your own wealth. Of course, the kids are another issue…but at least the divorce won’t financially devastate you as much as it could have.

  • david

    Rollo, I know that the other components of smv impact a man’s value greatly, but do you think in most cases that a man should always marry a women less hot than he is. Maybe this is why nature has gifted men with being able to be attracted to such a wide range of women…because we have to always marry down for relational success. It seems like if your wife is hotter than you (only looks wise), than there are too many extra factors that you have to maintain in order to be attractive to her.

  • The Lone Planet

    For the 1,000,000th time, don’t marry.

    “Too much work, not enough sweets.” – Capt. K’nuckles

  • Acksiom

    >I read what you wrote last week. And I disagree.

    No; to disagree you need to actually present some kind of sensible counterargument. You haven’t. So you don’t actually even disagree. You merely deny: http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2014/02/dont-accept-neutering-of-yourself-or.html .

    Comments are full of examples.

  • Blusterybill

    As someone who has been both alpha and beta (the latter for way too long in my marriage), the question about whether it’s all worth it or not is a good one. As much as I’m now a true believer in the power of game, it’s just fucking exhausting… Constant assessment and reassessment of one’s LTR circumstances. Constant strategizing. Painstaking analysis of all interactions with the wife, shit tests, etc. A game of chess that never ends and in which I feel like I’m in constant competition with the likes of a Kasparov.

    That said, I can attest to the power of Dread game (and CH’s recent column that women actually want you to cheat or at the very least certainly want to know you’re capable of it). Here are a few examples:

    1. We have some friends – a couple from Latin America. Recently, the very drunk Latina wife tells me that I should take a trip with her husband to Brazil to get laid. Most beautiful women in the world… Very sexual… Etc. Etc. I tell her that putting myself in that type of situation would be beyond dangerous as it would almost ensure that I would cheat, and asked her if it didn’t bother her that her husband did. Her answer: “No, because he always comes home to me and I’m number one.” I swear it was like she was validated by the fact that her husband was able to score other women (and did), but at the end of the day she was at the top of the pecking order. Blew my mind.

    2. Sitting in a bar with my wife and some friends one night when a friend and I start joking around with the very hot foreign bartender. Look at my wife and she’s shooting me daggers. I get the third degree when we get home… She’s pissed… It’s disrespectful… “I never flirt with men like that” (She does of course, and it enrages me). In this instance I held my frame, teased her, didn’t apologize, etc. and she later completely fucked my brains out.

    3. But here’s where it gets most interesting… I travel a lot for business, and since I’ve started internalizing game, it’s amazing how easy it COULD be for me to cheat. Now that I recognize women’s IOI’s and flirt back, it really wouldn’t be difficult — save for crossing the psychological threshold of being “unfaithful.” In the past two months I’ve innocently flirted with a couple women who were seat mates on my flight — one gave me her phone number and the other just flat out propositioned me.

    Wife is picking up on this dynamic now and starting to give me lighthearted shit about it both privately and in public. When I leave for a biz trip, she speculates that I’ll be banging some stewardess or that I have a secret girlfriend. In the past I would have protested mightily… Now I just agree and amplify.

    Just this weekend with friends I’m telling a story about something I thought she and I did together and she says (laughing) “No, that wasn’t me… It must have been your other girlfriend.” She’s also flat out told me “If you cheat, I just don’t want to know about it.”

    And now we come full circle back to the “exhausting” part… I haven’t exercised my options yet, but damn if it’s not tempting. I think about it this way: The excruciatingly difficult/highly labor intensive way to reset the marriage dynamic is to constantly put yourself in situations where you could cheat, but don’t… Hope your wife picks up on it… Go through the long process of trying to rebuild the spark in the bedroom with no guarantee of success.

    The other way is to just say fuck it and cheat… Not saying you shove your wife’s nose in it, but if she’s suspecting it anyway and if (at least from the examples above) it seems to actually turn them on, convince them that you’re the alpha she thought she married, and short-circuit the time consuming nature of re-establishing alpha-hood with no guarantee of success, it seems like a valid option.

    Set aside the morality question… That would be something to be wrestled with separately. But unless I’m missing something, it seems like a practical option from a cost-benefit analysis.

  • Elspeth

    I’ve never viewed my husband as “beta”, as much as I can discern what that is supposed to mean, anyway.

    Perhaps it’s because I always felt as if I married up. My husband is and was always considered objectively, universally handsome and I was always something of a niche, looks wise.

    Interesting thoughts Rollo. As usual, there are some points of disagreement, but you’re always entertaining to read. That counts for something.

  • jf12

    @Stingray, again thanks for a woman’s pov. Yes, I did some self-improvement and I noticed some other women starting to be interested, but I have not yet noticed my wife noticing other women noticing, in a couple of years. To assure myself other women’s interest was real I started doing some practice game, as I mentioned.

    Re: pleasant surprise. I imagine it would be unpleasant. As Rollo mentioned we’re all unique, but the universe of parameterizations is finite. Although some kind of alpha female among women, in person my wife is almost agoraphobic around all other men, very mousy, except for with me; with me she is comfortable. Roughly speaking, besides her father I was the only man she allowed in her life. And throughout our marriage but increasingly since menopause, she goes out of her way to point out attractive women to me, in person or in Vogue or something, which I’ve considered some kind of test and simply ignored.

    I do believe the *keeping* of a woman’s respect (e.g. with soft dread) is entirely different, maybe even diametrically opposite, from the problem of getting rid of her contempt.

  • Bachelorocles

    @talprofs

    “A tragedy of my betatised weakness” “and I how I so willingly allowed myself to be duped.”

    Don’t beat yourself up. It happens to the best of men, even natural alphas. I don’t care how tough, intelligent, and alpha you are — it can happen to you. Evolution has caused men to bond deeply to a woman and if we’re not careful that bond can turn into a chain.

    “I am under no illusion that it will take me some time to recover — but I at least now see that recovery is possible; I would not acknowledge this for a very long time.”

    You’re going to be fine!! It’s will be difficult at first, but connect with your male friends, learn to live alone, work on game, read, pursue women younger than your ex-wife, work out, purchase new clothes (don’t be afraid to be bold), do the things you could’t do with your wife, and you’ll soon find yourself happier than before, And one day you’ll scratch your head and wonder why you put up with that woman and why you hadn’t always lived as a bachelor. And if you ever come to miss marriage, a short visit with your married friends will cure of the sickness.

    That woman leaving was a gift. Embrace it.

  • jf12

    “Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.” And yet, in general, she’s still not likely to act on her attraction. This ties in with comments about a wife flirting. Let’s be honest: if they wanted to, most women could streetwalk and make good pocket money even if they wouldn’t get rich. She could lay on the sidewalk and spread her legs and get some takers, especially if she were actively giving it away. So in general there is no point in a wife trying to make her husband jealous unless she wants to be perceived by him as a common prostitute; it simply doesn’t work the way for men as for women. The better strategy for a woman to be perceived as higher value is for her to confine her attentions, NOT distribute them.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @David Interesting theory. I sort of covered this in Women’s Physical Standards. It’s interesting that men’s sexual preferences can vary based on his personal circumstances while women’s physical standards remain historically static.

    http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/15/womens-physical-standards/

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Elspeth, have you ever been attracted / aroused by another man in the time you’ve been married?

  • LucasBly

    @Rollo, I brought up your marriage not to snoop into your business, rather to illustrate (for myself more than anything) that it is at least POSSIBLE for a red pill convert to game his wife and remain a happy Alpha man. If you can do it, maybe I can do it too.

    Far be it from me to argue with your logic – I’m here, after all, not to dispute you but to learn.

    I had a man suggest to me once, that no frustrated husband should ever divorce his wife until he works through his own issues, become the man he always wanted to be, and decide only after self-actualizing if his marriage is something he wants to continue. This is because the woman he has history with, can most accurately reflect his new vision of himself, act as his mirror, and help him decide if his new self is truly the man he wants to be. Who better to gauge your new-and-improved self, than the woman who already knows everything there is to know about you? If he gives up on the marriage too early, and fails to heal himself and capitalize on the impartial reflection that his wife provides, he’s doomed to repeat the same problems and become the same Beta chump, in his second marriage.

    By “excusing” her, I didn’t mean to introduce morality, rather simply to suggest that it’s entirely possible not every frustrated man’s wife is a raging psychopath who deserves to be divorced. Maybe women just develop annoying dominant behaviors in response to a husband who fails to maintain his frame, and it’s up to the man to correct the course of that particular ship once he realizes his error.

    Reading my own writing, I can see where my logic leans toward NAWALT, and perhaps this is where married men stray from MGOTWs – their answer to the question “is it even possible to be a happy man with a woman in his home?” Clearly there are voices for both sides, in the comments section of this post.

    If the answer is yes, then my question changes… was the happily married Alpha man simply lucky enough to marry a red-pillable woman, or can any man, with enough effort, create and enjoy a red pill marriage?

    …which then might lead me to another question… rather than watch for signs that his potential mate intends to Betafy him, per Deti’s 6 Tells (since Rollo just posited in this post that EVERY woman intends to Betafy her husband), are there instead signs that one particular woman over another, might be amenable to swallowing the red pill at some later date in the marriage?

    Is there a way to tell in advance, if it is likely a particular woman can be Married Gamed? Or given the right frame, is it reasonable to assume that they all can?

    Is the man who successfully games his wife and enjoys a Red Pill Alpha marriage able to do so because he’s especially awesome and could game any woman he chose to marry, or because the woman he happened to marry is especially amenable to gaming?

  • YOHAMI

    jf12,

    Spreading legs to multiple random men in exchange of cash vs. spreading legs to one or two alphas in exchange of attention and high quality seed are opposite things.

    “Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.”

    Attraction – not money.

    Women’s more common strategy is to get a beta with money, and cheat on him with the hottest alpha they can get.

  • jf12

    Fun stuff from Jenny Erickson.

    http://thestir.cafemom.com/entertainment/168684/matthew_mcconaugheys_wife_admits_hes

    His wife says he’s not romantic because he’s in love with her and doesn’t grab her.

  • Elspeth

    Have I found another man attractive? Of course I have. I tend to be more visual than most women in that regard, or so my female relatives and friends tell me.

    But sexually aroused by another man? No Rollo, not that I can recall.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Women’s more common strategy is to get a beta with money, and cheat on him with the hottest alpha they can get.

    Or do so proactively:

    http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/23/schedules-of-mating/

  • Tam the Bam

    walawala o man you’re killing me, just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
    “some guy bought them drinks and then said “I like you, come over to my place.””
    Well then? Did she, or didn’t she?
    It’s important, to amateurs like me.

  • jf12

    Re: “Attraction – not money.” If she’s giving it away for free then she’ merely a cheaper-than-usual prostitute. It’s inescapable.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Lucas, no offense taken. I rarely use my own marriage as an example for anything because it usually comes off as overly ideal to guys who’re really suffering (or suffered) in their own. I agree with Lone Planet that from a coldly pragmatic view men shouldn’t marry under the present social pressures and I questioned as much in As Good As It Gets:

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/29/as-good-as-it-gets/

    Tradcons and Christo-redpills ran me up the flag pole for that one, but it’s hard to argue with the logic of it.

    I know that doesn’t help your situation, but I do know that you’re probably in for some real soul searching before you decide what you want to do. Yes, I have a really good marriage; my wife still looks good, she still bangs good, I play with her and I play with her, we’ve raised a surprisingly smart and responsible daughter, I love her and we’re ‘in love’ together, and that probably sounds like all the fantasy a deluded Beta would conjure to validate his being married. My marriage is not a template, it’s an anomaly.

  • jf12

    fwiw I believe Elspeth when she says’ she’s not been aroused by another, and I believe my wife would say the same. That’s what I meant about “And yet, in general, she’s still not likely to act on her attraction.” I think a woman becomes aroused by acting on her attraction by letting a man game her.

  • Tam the Bam

    @ jf12 :
    “.. squeezing the kumquats ..”
    .. in a Gippo market?
    I say! Bold fellow. They generally kick off like nobody’s business if you even look at them.

  • jf12

    @Tam, I don’t know if they were kumquats per se, and actually, this series of really high-quality pictures was of his buff young bodyguard holding various fruits amongst a scruffy Moroccan crowd. I kept waiting for her to point out the to-me obvious gayness, but I didn’t want to be the first to explicitly mention it. My saying kumquats about him dismissively was a sort double-back-flipping-entendre; it’s a risqué sounding word as it is. Besides it’s not as if he’s a real billionaire worth 10 figures; 9 figures is alls he’s got, I’m sure.

    Also, I couldn’t have dissed him just for taking a male traveling companion, especially because I’ve done so previously in order to avoid having a female traveling companion and the various troubles that could have ensued. What causes my nose to raise is him photo-documenting himself having So! Much! Fun! with his guy, much like a girl would.

  • jf12

    Although definitely a side-topic, I mentioned that my wife often points out attractive and/or slutty women to me, even though I’m careful to never pay them any mind. And I’ve see that public behavior in some other women too; whether it’s a loyalty test or what I don’t know but it seems common. But I’ve never tried to draw my wife’s attention to an attractive man, and it must not be common for other men in public either, or else I would have noticed.

  • Kate

    I have no interest in reading those women. Their reality is not my reality. Your reality is not my reality. As far as I know, you didn’t commit to marriage at twenty and leave an unhealthy relationship at thirty even though you already knew that there was likely no future relationship for you. As far as I know, you didn’t live with an alcoholic for a decade nor care for and support him through cancer, then give him half your assets so you didn’t have to live with him anymore. Your experience of difficulty is all second hand and therefore your conclusions will always be that of an outsider.

    Now, about this fixation you have with your sister-in-law. The part you completely leave out of the story is that they must have had some sort of involvement before she divorced your brother-in-law. That means that, while she is, of course, still culpable, it was the millionaire- through a flaw in his own moral system- who POACHED her from your brother-in-law. You didn’t point the finger of blame back far enough. While its not impossible to reject the attentions of more attractive man, its not easy, especially considering, in this case, the millionaire is even more valuable than the female 10. Most women won’t ever know what this temptation feels like- not because they’re “good” people, but because they simply aren’t attractive enough. Your brother-in-law’s suicide is tragic! But understand that why it happened was a man’s fault moreso than a woman’s. He took what was not his to take.

    “My marriage is not a template, it’s an anomaly.” So, you’re a special snowflake? :)

  • LucasBly

    @Rollo, I think you’re not giving yourself enough credit. That you’re enjoying a happy marriage makes me want to read you more, not less. I get tired of listening to men complain about what they can’t (or don’t want to) fix; would rather hear from those enjoying success.

    I would respectfully submit the observation that you clearly put a lot of time and effort into mulling over exactly how a man might optimize his contribution to a healthy relationship, whatever that means to him. Perhaps that makes you less of an anomaly because you’re a red pill man with a good marriage, and more of an anomaly because you’re a red pill man who uses game to create a better marriage instead of abandoning it.

    Again, I know nothing about your marriage. I’d just like to test the assumption (am I wrong?) that becoming red pill aware gives a married man his greatest opportunity to develop both himself, and the marriage, into as close an ideal form as either is capable of.

    In other words, what makes you think that a red pill aware man such as yourself enjoying a happy marriage is an anomaly? Wouldn’t it make more sense that the more aware a man becomes, the happier will be any marriage he chooses to build?

    I can report some limited success already introducing mild dread game into my own marriage. That I have had any positive impact at all, gives me hope that additional work can create additional positive impact.

    Will she ever bang like a single chick? That remains to be seen. What a fun goal to shoot for though.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 5,066 other followers

%d bloggers like this: