Beta Fucks

beta_fucks

I had an interesting experience last Friday. I had finished a good workout and was on my way home when Bebé Tomassi texted me asking if I would pick up a sandwich for her from Subway and bring it to her at a school function. Sure, why not.

I get into the local Subway at around 6:30 pm and it being a Friday night and Subway isn’t the most happening place to be on a Friday, I’m there with only a couple ahead of me in line. The woman looked to be late 20’s, I’d guess 27-28, and not too bad looking – 5′ 9″-10″, blonde – if she’d been dressed better she might rate a 7 on the Tomassi scale. The guy she’s with was thin, short mop of hair, about the same height, maybe around her age.

What made them notable was the gender dynamic between them I picked up on immediately. Within the first 3 minutes of coming up behind them in line the guy had made every Beta tell I think Roissy has a term for. When I got in line he was hugging up on her from behind, leaning in and she stood there like a tree. His posture and body language, as well as his attitude instantly told me this couple’s relational dynamic – he was the qualifying Beta and she was the mouthy, hard-to-please Hyena.

She noticed me when I came up. I was the only other person in Subway and I still had my gym clothes on. Some top 40 crap song came on the overhead and she blathered out, “I hate this shit music. They should put Metallica or Slayer on, that would be funny.” as if she expected the Beta to ask the management to switch stations. She gives me a glance as if offering an opening after that comment. I order my daughters sandwich.

“No! Don’t get me lemonade, it’s too syrupy here, get me diet Dr. Pepper.” she belts out to the Beta dutifully getting their drinks. The sandwich artist asks here what she’d like on her sandwich – reaches over and touches my forearm (IOI, kino) “This might take a while, I’m very choosy”, she says to me in her ‘tone’.

“I’m not in a hurry.”

Sandwiches get made, Beta pays. My girl’s sandwich is done at the same time (she’s not too choosy), and as Alpha Girl and Beta Boy are about to leave she grabs both their sandwiches and mine ‘by mistake’. The Subway cashier stops her to tell her she picked up my sandwich (remember, we’re the only people in the store), Beta puffs a nervous laugh, she looks at me, “Ohh, sorry,..” hands me the bag and holds eye contact just that beat longer than normal.

“Come on we gotta go.”, Beta reaches around her waist, and like the cane that pulls a bad actor off the stage, they exit.

Passive Game

I did nothing to actively Game this girl, she was Gaming herself. I’ve seen this before. There’s a branch of Game (I think Roosh mentions it) that speculates that sometimes girls will Game themselves and all you need to do is not fuck it up. Sometimes less is more; when a woman is already attracted to you, Game becomes remaining aware of the indicators, allowing the proper flow and just presuming the sale.

I preface today’s post with this because it ties in nicely to a particular discussion last week’s post sparked. I’ll admit, being married kind of puts a Man in a ‘nothing to lose’ perspective. A lot of guys like to speculate that a wedding ring makes a man more desirable – it doesn’t. If married men are at all attractive to women it’s not due to some fantasy of preselection by his wife making him more attractive as a long term prospect; it’s because, generally, he’s not actively pursuing women. There’s a certain power in indifference – you’re far more desirable when you aren’t qualifying yourself to women, and no guy is more indifferent than one who knows with all certainty who he’ll be banging that evening.

However, there is also an amplification of attraction and arousal for a more Alpha man when a woman is in a relationship with a man she perceives as Beta. A similar amplification also becomes heightened when a woman is the focus of one or more Beta orbiters. The persistent affirmation by, and supplication of, Beta men puts that Alpha in a spotlight. A constant atmosphere of Beta attention and concern has an effect of preselecting that (more) Alpha Man for a woman. A common complaint many Beta men share is being an emotional tampon for a woman, listening and commiserating with her about the ‘asshole boyfriend’, only to have her desire for him become more amplified and off she goes for her desired sex with him again. The Beta(s) rationalizes this as ‘a moment of weakness’ for his special girl, but is unaware that his constant Beta affirmations contribute to her attraction to that Alpha.

As I stated, I wouldn’t have had to apply much Game to the Subway girl – the Beta boyfriend had already done a lot of the heavy lifting. This particular dynamic is something to remember if you’re Gaming a girl with a boyfriend or a girl who drops a boyfriend disclaimer into casual conversation. A girl’s boyfriend may not be the Beta this guy was, but if he is, let that form the basis of your Game. I should also add that this ‘Beta does the lifting’ dynamic is the root of AMOGing and running boyfriend destroyer Game. You should also be aware when this tactic is being run on yourself.

Husband = Beta

Now before you think I’ve gone completely mercenary, this incident made me think of this comment from last week’s post from Lucas Bly:

So essentially, I’m reading the last four paragraphs of your essay to read:

“She married you because you are a provider, not because she was attracted to you. She’ll never be as attracted to you as she was to her previous Alpha Fucks.”

That’s a tough pill to swallow, my brother.

The issue being, of course, what to do with yourself, and with her, after you discover you got gamed into that kind of marriage.

Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.

In the interests of full disclosure, Lucas had petitioned me earlier about his particular situation being similar to the guy in Saving the Best. What the kid in the Subway made me think of was a wondering if he had at one time been relatively Alpha enough to attract this dominant woman, or if she perceived him in a good provider role. She certainly fit the script of the 27-29 year old woman looking to cash out of the SMP before her attractiveness capital (such as it was) expired. But on the other hand, she wasn’t averse to giving a perceptual Alpha IOIs right under his nose. It’s an interesting passive cuckolding effect.

Lucas’ musings prompted the question: Does an Alpha (perceptually) drop in status for a woman once he’s committed to monogamy with her?

One common situation I get from newly red pill men is that after a few years they find themselves trapped in a sexless marriage or living arrangement and they want to know how to get back to the hot monkey sex they had (or their wives had with previous lovers) in the early stages of their relationship. Once they become red pill / Game aware and realize what they are and how they got there, the next question is how to get back to what he had before.

The question is usually along the lines of “Help Rollo, I used to be really Alpha back in the day, but now my wife sees me as a Beta provider, what do I do?” Virtually every man on the Married Man Sex Life forums looks for a solution there for some variation of this situation, but is it that marriage itself, by it’s very nature predisposes a woman to view her husband in a Beta status? The go-to definition is Beta Provider, not Alpha provider.

Hypergamy being what it is, it’s Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks; if a woman, being the arbiter and decider with whom she will pair-off with in the long term, has agreed to commitment with a man, it would follow that on some level (whether true or not) she believes this man will be a provider and parent for her and future children. So the question then isn’t so much about a man backsliding to Beta after having been considered Alpha enough to fuck the woman who would be his wife, that may be, but rather it’s the familiarity and provisioning that define marriage makes a woman consider him Beta-provider by default.

Dr. Warren Farrell explored this in some of his writing. He posited that the familiarity of marriage predisposes women to consider their husbands as family members, thus the concept of sex with a family member is repelling for women. This is further complicated by parenthood; when boyfriend becomes husband, and then husband becomes Daddy, the family familiarity dynamic makes having sex less and less appealing.

I think there may be something to this, but when you combine it with a fattening and less appealing Daddy, and Mommy, the complex worsens. Thus any strange, outsider, Alpha becomes the stuff of fantasy for women.

Burninator picks up the narrative:

“After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off?

My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped.”

He’s referring of course to the husband in the Saving the Best post. I’m not entirely sure most guys, and especially men with a Beta mindset, are very receptive to the red flag warnings telegraphed by women, but Deti makes a good stab at it:

1. A guy in that situation should take note of the kinds and types of men she was attracted to/fucked before. Huge red flag if you are markedly different from those kinds of men. For example: She used to date guys in shitty bands and small time pro athletes. But she’s now taken quite a shine to mid level business managers and guys with steady jobs. Indicates she’s changing lanes; going for the beta bucks. This woman is for dating; not for marriage.

2. She was a slut with other guys; makes you wait; then when she finally does take the plunge, the sex is of pornstar quality. Seems to be putting on an act; a performer on stage.

3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex.

4. Firmly controls the sex. Won’t do certain things; will have sex only at certain times; doesn’t like certain sexual acts because “only sluts do THAT” and “I don’t want you to think I’m a slut”. Immediately gets up after sex to expel the semen because “I don’t want to get a yeast infection” or to take care of the wet spot.

5. Closely related to this is that she remains in control of herself during sex. Never seems to be completely free or enjoying herself; always assessing her own performance and your evaluation of her sexually.

6. Wants to move rapidly to commitment. Puts out overt and subtle hints that she expects ever increasing investment and commitment in exchange for the sex she’s doling out.

These are pretty good tells for a woman looking to cash out of the SMP with a provider, but again, I’m not entirely convinced that women in the Epiphany Phase of life are reserving these tells exclusively for Beta men.

Validational Sex vs. Transactional Sex

Commenter jf12 brings us to the heart of the matter:

At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming).

It should also be noted that when a female primate does engage in a transactional sex exchange with a Beta male, it’s during the down cycle of her menstruation (point of lowest potential fertility). As with female primates (including humans), when she is in the proliferative phase of her menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation, and the highest potential fertility) her biochemistry predisposes her to seek out the sexual attentions of more Alpha (masculinized) ‘good genes’ males.

I covered this fundamental at length in Schedules of Mating. Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks is the behavioral manifestation of feminine hypergamy and the dualistic nature of women’s sexual strategy as prompted by female biology. From an evolutionary / adaptive species-survival standpoint, women’s sexuality is nothing if not pragmatic and often opportunistic.

Most often when I’m asked the “How do I get my wife to fuck me again?” it’s coming from a man who once thought he had the best his wife had to offer, sexually, emotionally, etc. only to discover she had or still has the potential to be much more than he can coax from her or she’s willing to give to him. Again, I have to come back to the question, does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?

I’ve had the premise that only Beta men consider getting married thrown at me on occasion. I think this presumption may be putting the cart before the horse – maybe, eventually, a man cannot help but be perceived as a Beta by his wife because he is her husband, a parent and provider (or should be). Many divorced men express disbelief when they discover just how wildly sexual their ex-wives can be with their new lovers. They take it as some personal failing that they were unable to bring out the slut in their wives when they were married, but I might argue that their position as husband and father made this impossible for them.

There’s a lot more I could write about this. What do you do if you find yourself in this situation? Leave, divorce, cheat on her? That may be enough to push past that comfortable familiarity. I can think of one married blogger who’s husband cheated on her with the result being her unconditional submission. Dread Game, both overt and soft dread, might cut through that familiarity. Strong Frame control is the lynchpin to a good relationship, ensuring that your SMV is above that of your wife or LTR, and knowing the power this has can keep an Alpha impression functional.

However, in the end, you have to evaluate the worth of changing yourself in order to reestablish that Alpha sex connection. If divorce isn’t an option for you due to religious convictions, then you’ll have to factor that into your evaluation. If not, then you’ll have to consider the depth and importance your commitment means to you versus the effort (or even having to make an effort) you’ll make to reestablish yourself. You’ll need to consider this with all the logic and rationalism at your disposal, divorced from emotional considerations – most times that’s the most difficult part. You’ll want to couch your decision making process based on Relational Equity, but you have to set aside that emotionalism and use cold pragmatism.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

239 comments on “Beta Fucks

  1. @Don’s Johnson

    Tsk tsk – reeducation camp for you!!!

    Wolf Millionaire and the Bad Husband were jointly responsible. Wolf Millionaire unfairly lured and dominated Special Princess and Bad Husband . . . well, it’s safe to assume he did a lot of things wrong and I’m positive Special Princess could innumerate a thousand wrongs Bad Husband did which justify (hamsterize) her behavior. And, lets not forget – Special Princess is entitled to a wealthy husband. But most importantly: women don’t cheat. They’re passive, innocent, special princesses incapable ill intent or bad thoughts and thus cannot do bad things.

    Sarcasm aside, Kate knows she’s lying. She’s trying to defend women to a group of men. Get a few drinks in her and, if she’s honest, she’ll open up about the ways of women.

  2. I hadn’t really considered it when I was writing this, but I can see why Kate is upset. Someday she’ll marry ‘Minter the Alpha’ single divorceé and he’ll lose that status by default. Maybe she fears the danger will be gone, or perhaps what I offered in this post hits too close to home considering his history with his kids and first wife.

    That’s not a cut on Mark per se, but I think I struck upon an anxiety in Kate.

  3. No woman has ever known hardship in a marriage and seen it through. Nope, never happened. A drunk? Why… I never heard such a thing. Cancer? No way. Why there truly are righteous reasons to betray one’s vows. Who knew?

    What’s that? For better or worse….fugetaboutit

  4. jf12
    I’m starting to think (and everyone sighs relief and says “Finally!”) that one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him backrubs.

    Backrubs? She has to give something that begins with a “B” but that ain’t it. And per Julian O’Day, she should be on her knees, regularly. It speaks to the back of her head, for a start.

  5. Women don’t want a man that no other woman wants. That never changes.
    The more faithful and devoted you are to her, the more sure of you she is, the less attracted she is to you.
    The more you cheat(because we see this before marriage), or could cheat, or have potential side pieces the hotter you become in her eyes and she can’t wait to bang you senseless.

    Baked Ice.

  6. Sarah’s Daughter
    What’s that? For better or worse….fugetaboutit

    Long before that point is reached, “Love”, “honor” and “obey” are all gone, generally “obey” is most likely the first one to go.

  7. No woman has ever known hardship in a marriage and seen it through. Nope, never happened. A drunk? Why… I never heard such a thing. Cancer? No way. Why there truly are righteous reasons to betray one’s vows. Who knew?
    What’s that? For better or worse….fugetaboutit

    Partial truths, with important omissions.

    What kind of women?
    Were the 10s? Did they have the opportunity to trade up?

    Or were they 3s, and wouldn’t have had anywhere else to go?

    Did she have a religious background, a strong support system, and the threat of shaming and excommuncation if she backed out of the marriage?

    Here’s a woman that loved her drunk and they were BOTH no good for it:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/shirley-jones_0_n_3647862.html

    “No woman” doesn’t mean jack.

  8. generally “obey” is most likely the first one to go.

    The first one to go? It is so rarely even there to begin with.

    rpsmf,
    I’ve not read comments of yours for a while. There’s a new jadedness to them. I understand it, don’t get me wrong, I’m still trying to understand what part of “set me free” applies to you. Though I know it’s a process, yours is taking a particularly long journey through the bitterness stage. Here’s to you reaching the indifferent side.

  9. The more you cheat(because we see this before marriage), or could cheat, or have potential side pieces the hotter you become in her eyes and she can’t wait to bang you senseless.

    Sorry, I had to pick myself off the floor from laughing at this gem. Yeah, sure she’ll fuck you, you and your DISEASES!

  10. I find these posts about actual dynamics and observations much more interesting and relatable than the stuff about other bloggers and tumblr-people and he-said-she-said. Please keep up the good foundational work Rollo!

  11. I’ve not read comments of yours for a while. There’s a new jadedness to them.
    If you haven’t read them for a while, how could you say that something’s changed? “New jadedness” and all?

    I understand it, don’t get me wrong
    You understand what?

    I’m still trying to understand what part of “set me free” applies to you.
    Have you ever considered that you don’t know everything?

    Though I know it’s a process, yours is taking a particularly long journey through the bitterness stage. Here’s to you reaching the indifferent side.
    You don’t know anything about my journey. It’s always fun watching you flail about tho, moving the goal posts by completely ignoring the questions posed.

  12. Kick ass article… and an important issue….

    I think you miss a couple of very important points….

    After years of being with the same woman the problem is that the man doesn’t find her that attractive any more….. especially if there’s been tension, bitchiness, arguments etc. he looks at her and subconsciously doesn’t want to fuck her – not least because it opens up the relationship again and potentially leads back into the cycle of squabbles… most LTRs that last beyond a couple of years end up in kind of ‘doing it for the kids’ stalemate, where there’s an unspoken agreement not to go all out in arguments anymore….

    The alpha that had a psycho girl friend…wouldn’t dream of getting back into bed with her, even if she’s a 9 or 10… because he wouldn’t want to re-open her ability to mess with his life…. the same psychology applies here…. only in a highly ineffective way…. Do you really want to be bothered… you maybe horny, but the option of fucking the 40+ housewive in her skives is unappealing at best…

    She also might not be that attractive physically any more, and not making any effort… and this is largely on HER side of the equation… It’s not the man’s fault at all…..

    A woman that gets into an LTR should be duty bound to make the damn effort to get her husbands rocks off a couple of times a week…. women scream that men only want a whore… that’s not all they want but when they want a whore, they damn well want one… hence the brothels of the world are rammed full of 40-50s married guys…

    Women in an LTR get less and less interested in serving their man, while their sexual rating slowly does down… market forces demands the opposite attitude… the older she gets the more of an outright whore she needs to be…… men go on about beta and alpha and date night and all this crap… BUT that is about YOU serving her… what about if I want a back massage and a BJ in the shower bitch ?

    Women in LTR’s often take the attitude of it being a zero sum game…. if the man is having a good time, they seem to presume that they are losing out in some way…. Whereas obviously a happy man, with lots going on in his life (especially in the bedroom)…. is going to be fun to be around, thus what’s good for him is good for her…. She’ll go ape shit around the house, but won’t take 5 minutes to doll herself up… that’s her fault… plain and simple….

    In an LTR the sex life of the couple is largely signed over to the woman…. it’s her job and her duty to dress sexy FOR HIM, have some lingerie available and actually fucking put it on more than once a year… 2-3 times a week is ideal…. it only takes two minutes for god’s sakes…

    But women just don’t bother…. it’s not about a lot of cajoling and alpha attitude… that stuff can help, but it’s about her attitude…. an escort that relies on putting it out to keep clients happy and earn her living…MAKES THE FUCKING EFFORT….. married women don’t want to make the effort… what’s even more stupid is that a 40+ married woman needs lots of sex to keep her reproductive system and hormones running… lest they just shut down…. my baby momma looks 10 years younger after a good fucking and fully admits it…. but still goes out of her way to tone down and avoid sex…. when it’s more for her benefit than mine…

    The guy makes the effort to pay the rent and do all this stuff… he’s getting older… perhaps he’s not hard like a rock in two seconds any more, and perhaps sometimes after a hard day he wants to lie back and enjoy his wife like he’s in a whorehouse…..

    But married women are too narrow minded to try this out, plus if they experience even the slightest hint of rejection or unwillingness to have sex from the man’s side… they lose it and refuse to ever try again…..

    It’s the women that are pathetic… it’s not the man’s fault…. women are like shopping carts… you stop pushing… they stop moving…. it’s impossible to incentivize someone that doesn’t want to find the incentive… that sees everything as a tedious chore and takes the attitude that if you’re having a good time… she must be losing out in some way…

    Women get into LTRs and then carry on the same attitude they had as singles…. case in point they get super bitchy and jealous and suspicious of cheating…. If you can’t trust me after 7 years of living with me… when can you trust me, and why the fuck are we still together ?

  13. Blusterybill – I suggest you take every opportunity god gives you – being careful of pregnancy and psycho women… get a burner phone, don’t give your full name or address…. don’t give company business cards….

    AND – NEVER TELL HER – most importantly learn to eat any guilt that comes up, and instead thrive from the wonderful feeling of being wanted by more than one woman…. if you experience any paranoia that she might be cheating learn to live with the reality that she might and understand it’s most likely just you catching your reflection in her innocence….

    It doesn’t make you the nicest guy in the world, but as we know, nice guys come last….

    I think – if I can find the time for it – that the answer to an LTR is to openly bring other women over and get them in bed with the wife / baby momma…. once she has a taste for it, she’ll lose herself for you….

    The reason that women are so anxious about cheating is a.) because they know how easy it would be to go out and get laid and b.) because they know that if you openly bring a second woman into the relationship, they will go mad competing over you….

    In my opinion the mistake the plate spinning guys make is not getting 2 or more of their plates on the same stick…. so much easier to spin 2-3 plates on one stick that hold 2-3 sticks…

  14. Re Kate & Rollo’s conversation…

    It is interesting to me, that we as a society generally tend to socially acknowledge that it is the women who choose during the dating/courting process… but when it comes to cheating, the men and women are now somehow equally culpable. It doesn’t make sense to me. Men are biologically wired to go for just about anything that will offer itself to them and not hassle them in their lives too much, and it is men who suffer from the mental delusion of self-sacrificial eros. But when it comes to cheating in a relationship, it’s like we immediately take women at half-agency and say, “Well the guy shouldn’t have been interested in this woman who was offering herself more often and with more interesting intimate activities than his wife did.”

    To the ladies:
    The number 1 phrase uttered by male Johns to their prostitutes when the prostitute asks why they are using a prostitute is…
    “My wife is unwilling to do these things.”

    Think about that.

  15. Jeremy – yes exactly….. you nailed it…. in this age of liberation and equality men just need to demand that women start acting like adults, instead of bringing the 13 year old high school girl into the marital home and bedroom…. all this alpha bucks and beta and date night… it’s all BS… it’s just more (beta) pandering to try to manipulate the woman with what they think she wants…. what’s the difference between a white night anxiously driving across town to help some poor female he hopes one day might become his girl friend… and the married guy putting on all this dance to get laid….

    where i live brothels are legal, and although i haven’t partaken in a long time.. i have in the past…. and the brothels here are absolutely amazing… you can have ANYTHING YOU WANT !…. without judgement, prejudice, gossip, performance expectations…. they even do the ‘pornstar experience’ now… and girl friend experience has been on offer for a long time…. .

    THE ONLY THING NOT ON OFFER IN THE BROTHEL is the ‘Wife Experience’ – Why ? Because no man in his right mind wants a wife experience even if the hooker was paying him $100,000 for his company…

    Women need to learn techniques, learn what a man wants, get the right sexy clothing, buy some toys, bring a BFF over for a threesome… they need to start putting out like hookers once they are married….

    If they don’t want to do that – they shouldn’t get married….

  16. Re: the wife experience. So how come she isn’t paying me?
    EXACTLY THIS.
    Thank you. This is what I’ve been trying to say. Men have been beaten back on their heels so much they can’t even see the inequity.

  17. beginning to think that “personal integrity” in a man, in the eyes of many modern women, roughly translates to “easy mark”…

    …that the reason for attraction to dark triads is a simple case of “birds of a feather”…

    … and if the real source of pleasure is the anticipation… and if the reverse holds true… then the road to hell is worse than being there… so don’t fret boys, it’ll get better soon

  18. >Men have been beaten back on their heels so much they can’t even see the inequity.

    Gotta love how you HAVE to keep agreeing with me because reality.

  19. And TPM just linked to this: http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showthread.php?7899-Fear-of-Rejection-No-Fear-of-Punishment . The evidence just keeps piling right on up.

    Absolutely true, I’ve known it for years, and that’s why my model addresses the factors it does.

    It’s not that it’s all about the money. It’s that it’s all about identifying what means are best to change things fastest. Men’s liberation, being human liberation, is likewise partially the result of economic and technological advance. And that’s what we’re best suited to change; not people’s heads.

    Feminism succeeded because it could; its diet was the low-hanging fruit resulting from industrialization etc. Men’s liberation needs more and better economic and technological change than that because of how men’s assigned responsibilties are more and better than women’s were.

    So unless and until we change the economic and technological environment, people will go right on doing the same things to men and boys as always simply because it’s still cheaper and easier.

    Which includes beating them back on their heels so much they can’t even see the inequity. Keeping them so desperate for healthy, normal emotional validation that they’ll destroy themselves — as shown by the suicides stats — in the pursuit of it, so that everybody else can pay a little less for resources, infrastructure, manufacturing, defense, and so on.

  20. Rollo,

    Does Mrs. Tomassi view your relationship the same way, as an anomaly? Does she deal with backlash for it? And if so, how does she? Do you help her in this area? In this I mean that the herd can be nasty, is nasty. It seems at times that being happy in your relationship is a threat to those around you. I’ve had to deal with the comments and looks, and ignore the pressure to be pulled in with the herd; mostly because my husband lets me know he is pleased and satisfied with my behavior expecting and inspiring me to continue to give him my best. Tremendous changes have taken place over the past few years, the kind of changes that have distanced or lost friends and relationships. We have to watch what we say. Wondering if we’d had the current structure in our relationship all along that being different wouldn’t be as obvious. It would just be accepted as who we are. We’re still moving through transition, adjusting, learning; it’s been easier with time within the relationship. Didn’t expect some of the outside attitudes. Only a few ask questions, fewer want truthful answers
    .
    Thanks. Online is where we get the most, sometimes the only support.

  21. Since we all know (great way to start a convincing comment) that women actually get attention, romance, foreplay, bacon, childcare etc from betas and NOT from alphas, the question to be asked is: Why aren’t betas demanding compensation for giving The Husband Experience to their wives? And why aren’t more women more ashamed of themselves?

  22. Does Mrs. Tomassi view your relationship the same way, as an anomaly?

    She definitely recognizes it from time to time when there’s some external reminder of it. Our marriage and the way we complement each other is completely different than anyone else in either of our families. For an example you can read the story in Soft Dread.

    Does she deal with backlash for it?

    Backlash might be a strong word. I know some of her friends ask her how we do it. If anything I get the backlash from blue pill friends and co-workers who think I’m some domineering asshole whenever she calls me to ask if she can spend money on makeup or something.

    Living in a complementarian marriage seems like tyranny to blue pill plugins conditioned to think (feminized) egalitarian equalism should be the be ideal arrangement – yet most of them are on their 2nd or 3rd marriages.

    And if so, how does she? Do you help her in this area?

    Not much to really help with actually. She expected me to ‘be the Man’ from the day we started dating, so if anything she pities or is disgusted by egalitarian husbands on her own accord and doesn’t pay them much mind.

    Her best friend is a woman we know through our greyhound reconditioning and she and her husband are in a complementary marriage as well. Her husband is easily one of the most Alpha men I know and a good friend of mine too. My work and social circle is a lot different than hers, she tends to gravitate towards like interests and marriages, whereas I’m out in the field a lot.

  23. @jf12

    “Since we all know (great way to start a convincing comment) that women actually get attention, romance, foreplay, bacon, childcare etc from betas and NOT from alphas, the question to be asked is: Why aren’t betas demanding compensation for giving The Husband Experience to their wives? And why aren’t more women more ashamed of themselves?”

    In Betadom, she is Special Princess. He owes her and it’s never the other way around.

    Here’s a comparative analysis on the costs and benefits of buying vs leasing.

    http://thatsfunnyshit.blogspot.com/2011/07/purchasing-or-leasing-which-is-better.html

  24. @Jacquie

    Tremendous changes have taken place over the past few years, the kind of changes that have distanced or lost friends and relationships. We have to watch what we say. Wondering if we’d had the current structure in our relationship all along that being different wouldn’t be as obvious

    It’s hilarious, isn’t it? Modern society freely tolerates explicit BD/SM relationships, but the standard straight male-dominated female-submissive marital relationship from tales of old is frowned upon as if it were a living Nazi party leader.

    Up is down. Black is white.

  25. Jf12- “Why aren’t betas demanding compensation for giving The Husband Experience to their wives?”

    60 years of relentless conditioning.

  26. GeishaKate still trolling here? Still looking to confirm your choice of MM is the right one, checking to see if there might be a better Alpha for you?

    Honestly, what kind of person do you take me for? Of course I’d have the same opinion. Smell the defensiveness.

    I barely read your post, Rollo. Something about a sandwich. But if you keep that projector running, you can toast your own at home! Smell the deflection and irrelevancies.

    I think Rollo is right, this blogpost has struck a deep-seated insecurity in her. I think that it goes much deeper though. Vastly deeper: I think that it hits a deep-seated insecurity that might be present in all women.

    If they’re trying to marry the mythical Alpha Fucks/Provider, the slightest hint that marriage will automatically flip him into Beta Bucks/Pathetic mode in her mind must pull the solid underpinnings of What Reality Should Be™ out from under her feet. What she thought was Rock-solid and true is now quicksand that will potentially suck her into a nightmare of shifting mirrors, utter disappointment, and eventual black depression.

    This must be the deepest fear for a woman, that she makes the ultimate mistake in her choice of partner. Might this be a reason why women embrace the tenets of socialism/feminism?

  27. At least she took down that disburbing avatar pic. It was like looking at a female version of Charles Manson. Women don’t even know how to be feminine anymore.

    Great topic and insightful commentary.

  28. Jacquie from Barefoot in the Clearing? I miss you. 😉

    My husband gave me a lot of support in that area when I needed it (I find I don’t much any more, but he’s still there if I need him). He has become my herd.

    I’m very introverted though so I think that helps a ton. As to online, yes. The support there is tremendous. You should come join us at the Red Pill Women subreddit.

  29. This must be the deepest fear for a woman, that she makes the ultimate mistake in her choice of partner. Might this be a reason why women embrace the tenets of socialism/feminism?

    Yes.

    We are no longer taught that it is very much a wife’s job to help her husband stay alpha and grow in his masculinity. There is a paradox there as well. If we do help him, he becomes more attractive to us and very often a better provider at the same time. But the fear is that if our encouragement makes him too attractive, he will leave us for a younger and more beautiful woman. It’s almost like we can dread ourselves.

  30. Stardusk’s video about the idea that women consciously or subconsciously view their sexuality as a commodity that they will instinctively act to inflate its value is quite eye-opening and completely right.

    I remember an experiment done where a primitive monetary system was introduced to a group of monkeys. They took to it surprisingly well and one of the very first transactions that took place was the female monkeys exchanging money for sex.

  31. Re: “But the fear is that if our encouragement makes him too attractive, he will leave us for a younger and more beautiful woman.” The typical American woman solution is to make sure her husband feels utterly contemptible, apparently.

  32. Rollo-

    When she said “I’m very picky”, couldn’t you have looked sideways at her boyfriend and said ” I can see that.”

    BF destroyer…

  33. “maybe, eventually, a man cannot help but be perceived as a Beta by his wife because he is her husband, a parent and provider (or should be).”
    Yes. This is a major or the major theme of many if not most of your recent posts. And there is NOTHING the man can do to improve his situation short of pulling away to be less of a husband, less of a parent, less of a provider, less of a lover, less bacon, less roses etc. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    So why aren’t more appreciative of the beta males they claim to know they ought to prefer?
    http://www.smh.com.au/sport/winter-olympics/torah-bright-says-she-wants-a-big-man-in-bizarre-esquire-interview-20140221-337ty.html

  34. “Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.”

    When women encounter a male of (for her) unfamiliar alpha-ness, just like a guys reaction to a nine walking past while surrounded by a group of fives, her interest will be piqued and the drive to draw him in will be activated, whether or not she actual does it, which largely depends on the social environment.

    Nevertheless, it might not be as doom-and-gloom as all that. Novelty may be a factor for women but nowhere near so much so as for men. Her view of your “alpha-ness” is not so time dependent as to slowly but automatically dwindle over the years so if, shall we say, she were to meet someone that she deems equal to you on alpha-ness, providing all else is okay, she might feel an attraction but it will not be comparable to a guy in the same situation with a new girl.
    That which draws the male is variety (providing it complies with a minimum standard); that which draws the female is coming into contact with a greater level of alpha-ness than she currently has.

    It’s largely inevitable that sex become less frequent this isn’t necessarily a reflection of how alpha the man is being with her. Her sex drive will fizzle out naturally due to hormonal changes such as after having kids, and with time he will experience the Coolidge effect.

    “Keeping alpha” in a LTR is like mustering the discipline to get oneself down the gym day after day after month after year just because you know you should.

    Ultimately, it’s important to remember that his being attracted to her sexuality and fathering her offspring is all part of her subconscious game plan, whereas keeping him satisfied sexually in the long run is not – for that, not only must he avoid her contempt of him by railing against her female drive to beta-fy him, he must also have been careful to marry a decent, generous human being. Cue male shit-test.

  35. @ Kate:

    By way of background, Rollo often talks of his sister in law who married her first husband after she got pregnant. Brother in law does the right thing, marries her, breaks his ass for her. She divorces him after nearly 20 years of marriage; Bro in law commits suicide. Before his body is cold sis in law marries millionaire.

    You said this with regard to that situation:

    “The part you completely leave out of the story is that they must have had some sort of involvement before she divorced your brother-in-law. That means that, while she is, of course, still culpable, it was the millionaire- through a flaw in his own moral system- who POACHED her from your brother-in-law. *** While its not impossible to reject the attentions of more attractive man, its not easy, especially considering, in this case, the millionaire is even more valuable than the female 10.”

    Now, let me get this straight.

    Let’s assume it’s true that SIL was cheating on her first husband with Moneybags (a fact not in evidence).

    If we assume that, what you’re essentially saying is that Moneybags is MORE culpable for SIL’s divorce than SIL is. You’re saying that SIL has less moral agency.

    Nope. Don’t buy it.

  36. @Stingray – this is gonna be long-winded and probably will hair off into nowhere relevant, yet here goes:

    I had a discussion with some F-type women once, where I stated that it seemed they (Feelers) did not trust their emotions. (This was regarding xxFx in the MBTI/Cognitive Fuctions context.) It seemed that they sought safety/reassurance from others that their feelings were in fact the correct way to go – an expression of group-/herd-think.

    They said that I was 100% correct and one of them said words to the effect that she absolutely hated being apparently flighty and at the mercy of these emotions. This might be why women seem quite attracted to the strong, silent types (ISTJs especially) – they’re a mountain that can’t easily be moved. (One of Roissy’s maxims.)

    Given the anonymousness of modern city living – often well away from where they grew up – modern women are effectively cut off from the wisdom of their elders, mothers and grandmothers. Thus they have to form “bonds” with other females of their own age – females who are competition.

    So where their mothers and grandmothers may once have said: “Look at X, he’s actually showing signs of being a worthwhile man-to-be.” These women no longer have the benefit of those years of wisdom and experience, plus now relying on their sexual/life competitors for advice as to what to do regarding boys.

    Further those sexual/life competitors don’t have that much experience themselves (other than with bad boys). What was once a tremendously experienced support-network has been replaced by mediocre advice from a committee who has no stake in a good outcome for their little girl. Plus the members being in direct competition – can we say “conflict of interest”.

    We are no longer taught that it is very much a wife’s job to help her husband stay alpha and grow in his masculinity. Yep. Because of various conditioning, women want what they want right now. Consumer culture, Princess mentality, Feminism’s you can have your cake and eat it too, laziness – all contribute to this.

    Women want their Alpha, fully-fledged and bred from the bone, right now.

    Women these days don’t want to patiently grow their own bonsai, they want it handed to them on a plate. Effortless. Totally strings-free. Never mind that it’s a living, breathing organism – that the tree takes 10+ years of growth and tending simply to get started. Never mind that it also requires constant and ongoing nurturing or it will die.

    It doesn’t seem that women have been taught the fine art of bonsai. No matter how you twist, bend, tie, adjust the shade and light – it will grow in its own pattern. And smile gently to you, amused, as if to say: You should have expected this. Thus becoming more attractive to you because you can’t bend it absolutely to your will.

    There is a paradox there as well. If we do help him, he becomes more attractive to us and very often a better provider at the same time. But the fear is that if our encouragement makes him too attractive, he will leave us for a younger and more beautiful woman. It’s almost like we can dread ourselves.

    Not almost like. You do dread yourselves. The existential fear of women: to be replaced by a newer model, hotter-younger-tighter-still fertile. To be left on the scrap-heap of humanity. Growing old, alone, unloved, with cats. The go-to trope of the bitter and twisted men of the Manosphere.

    This used to be the job of your mothers and grandmothers: to make sure that this didn’t happen. We know what happened to that support-network. We know the warped and ill-fitting crutches which have replaced it. Women have truly crippled themselves.

    This fear is well-grounded these days. When the bonsai is handed over on a plate to someone with no effort or skill (no skin in the game) then it is easily mishandled or killed. Hitting with a stick won’t get far, it’s a tree – it’ll go dormant until it either dies or the abuse stops.

    There are plenty of thoughtless types who want that bonsai too: younger, hotter, tighter thoughtless types. It probably won’t go to a new owner so long as it is treated well – yet women will never be able to be sure. Because they didn’t tend it from its beginnings, they cannot be truly considered to be its owner.

    In cases of extreme abuse, the bonsai might tend itself – and share itself amongst other prospective “owners”. It being its own owner.

    These “owners” don’t realise that they aren’t being handed the bonsai on a plate: they’re being tested to determine if they are fit for purpose. There are definite hawsers attached to that “ownership” which can be triggered by a myriad of things.

    Said testing may take years for those better-qualified to be an owner. The right owner may never be found. Even so the bonsai will continue to grow and thrive.

  37. “To be left on the scrap-heap of humanity. Growing old, alone, unloved, with cats. The go-to trope of the bitter and twisted men of the Manosphere”
    I say, I say boy, I resemble that remaaahrk!
    And even though I have a heart as black and shrivelled as last year’s potatoes, am as old as Beetlejuice, and couldn’t lie straight in bed, I disapprove.
    It’s cruel to the poor innocent cats.
    Won’t somebody think of the cats, in all this?

  38. To BlackPoison,
    Good explanation there.
    I had asked before, or actually just thought out loud so to speak, what it would be like when the women of today who either don’t get or don’t head for whatever reason, the advice of the parents/grandparents, when they become that age themselves.
    Those brooms went crazy the last time the apprentice tried on that hat.

  39. I have pondered this one for about 3 years (marked by my now exwife moving out with the kids) — basically, “How did I end up here?”

    and as I have educated myself, and pondered the question – I come back to this…

    It is inevitable and unavoidable for most Men. No amount of Frame control or alpha-ness will keep it from happening. How you handle it, how you potentially turn it around, how you navigate it — that is really the question, and the answer.

    To me, you will be the Great Beta Husband at some point during your marriage (maybe several times) – it is like death – it happens to everyone. How you deal with those times will define the outcome.

  40. @TtB – I also resemble that remark. I decided to put it out because some cat-infested troll would otherwise meow it from her kitty-litter. I have a posting in the works about how we earned those bitter scars.

    You are right about the poor cats though: we must invent special foods for cat-owners, so that when their cats feast upon their decaying bodies the cats will have a meal fit for a king. In the interim, invest in pet food companies. Soylent Green would be a good brand-name.

    There is a reason for my monicker.

    @WCB – good that the posting makes some sense.

    @TM – it is definitely inevitable. A woman (or anyone, really) with no skin in the game has less invested, therefore will be more likely to jump ship when things go somewhat sour. Which they will: that’s life, you can’t be 100% all the time. Whether sickness, injury, loss of a job – if there is no investment, there is no or very poor bonds.

    Strictly speaking in my posting I looked only at the female side of things. From the male side: we no longer have our support-system either. No fathers and grandfathers to pass on their attitudes and wisdom and skills. This is of course why we men have a critical lacking in Alpha-ness.

    Also my posting has the implicit assumption that the bonsai wants another owner. It might decide that potential owners are far too careless of the responsibility that the bonsai represents. In this situation it might “rent” temporary owners, ruthlessly rejecting all unfit owners. Finally, there might be cases where the bonsai decides that it’s growth is for it alone – no owner required.

    The latter situation might leave the bonsai to growth and fulfilment on its own terms, while envious owners can only watch and wish and dream. No owner is entitled to 20+ years of solid, focused growth without any strings attached – no matter their feelings.

  41. Re: “couldn’t lie straight in bed” in my case it IS because of the cats. One has self-designated as my crotch-sniffer, and acommodating her requires at least one bent leg. If I roll over too vigorously, she will become smothered without offering resistance. In fact as the carbon dioxide builds up and her breathing becomes shallower she’ll start to purr/vibrate loudly, which may or may not wake me but will wake my wife. The other, her sister, believes her night job is to hold my legs down by lying across both my ankles and she can stretch arbitrarily to fit. About the only way to move her is to spread my legs with a jerk sending her flying, which my wife always thinks is done on purpose.

  42. @ deti

    Let’s assume it’s true that SIL was cheating on her first husband with Moneybags (a fact not in evidence).
    If we assume that, what you’re essentially saying is that Moneybags is MORE culpable for SIL’s divorce than SIL is. You’re saying that SIL has less moral agency.
    Nope. Don’t buy it.

    Ironically, this is the opposite of Aunt Giggle’s rationalization of her facilitating infidelity.

  43. Nemesis:

    Ah. You’re referring to Susan at HUS referring to her having sex with an engaged man; then explaining that she had no moral culpability for that act because she wasn’t the one in a committed relationship. If anyone was culpable, it was the man who slept with her while engaged to someone else.

    Yet in the situation with Rollo’s SIL, according to Kate, SIL has lowered culpability because Moneybags was just too difficult to resist.

    There you have it. When ethical lapses or questionable ethics are concerned, woman is excused every time. Man is blamed every time.

    The funny thing was that the conversation at HUS where that story surfaced was, IIRC, in the context of morals and ethics in relationships. But we cannot have clear conversations about ethics or morals in relationships when women and society excuse women from any ethical standards. And there is no way to have honest dialogue about relationship ethics when the standards for ethics are ever shifting and changing, and when there are (at least) two sets of standards which apply: One set for men which NEVER changes, ever; and a second, more fluid set for women which changes based on how it makes her look or feel. It’s no wonder why Game has made such headway in intersexual relationship theory when this is the kind of pretzel logic men have had to face in dealing with today’s women.

  44. Black Poisoned Soul,

    It was quite relevant and well said.

    Women want their Alpha, fully-fledged and bred from the bone, right now.

    What I find hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time, is that this alpha has to be exact. He has to be simultaneously sensitive and masculine. The strong silent type who will have deep meaningful conversations, often. Make lots of money and have all the time in the world to spend time with and cater to her. He must be masculine when she wants it and feminine at the exact same time. And women honestly cannot see the disconnect. There is no understanding or willingness to learn what masculine means and to just let it be.

    yet women will never be able to be sure. Because they didn’t tend it from its beginnings, they cannot be truly considered to be its owner.

    Ironically, it is this not being sure, never being to own in which a great deal of our attraction and respect stems. To own or contain masculinity destroys it.

    The right owner may never be found. Even so the bonsai will continue to grow and thrive.

    This. This right here is so incredibly lacking in understanding today. A man does. not. need. a. woman. A well cared for bonsai, one in which is encouraged to thrive, though is tended, twisted and tied will still grow into it’s own pattern and it is beautiful. A wild bonsai, in which it has grown wildly, is still beautiful. Women need to learn to twist, tie and tend in the manner in which the bonsai appreciates and loves and then let it grow on it’s own. It will surpass what she ever thought was possible.

  45. Black Poisoned Soul,

    Interesting side tidbit, when I met my husband I was INFP. He is an ISTJ (I don’t know what he was when we met, but definitely the strong solent type and he hasn’t changed all that much). 😉

    What’s more? I retook the test a few months ago and I am now an ISTJ as well. Make of that what you will. 😉

  46. Honestly, Stingray, I’ve never met a woman who actually wanted…”deep meaningful conversations, often.” I think this is another lie that women tell themselves. What women seem to want, conversationally, is an authority figure. They want someone who can talk for hours about things they have no understanding of. They want to be intellectually dazzled more than participate in a “deep meaningful conversation.”

    The classic story of a girl who falls in love with her professor is so common that in a way I’m shocked that Game did not originate in the halls of academia. I personally knew of at least 6 such instances of female students sleeping with a professor/instructor on campus with whom they attended at least one of his classes. I was also in the sciences department, which is usually female-depleted. One of those girls was so sweet and innocent and had such gigantic breasts that she’s one of my regrets.

    To be honest, and this will sound like I’m being arrogant, most women I’ve spent any time conversing with are poorly-read, lacking creative thoughts, and have an abysmal understanding of politics and the world at large. Having said that, I still can’t stand it when women say nothing on a date.

    1. Jeremy, Stingray

      ”deep meaningful conversations” for a woman, means “emotional stuff about how I feel and what I want”, “reaffirmation and validation of my viewpoints” and of course “entertain me with stories that show me your character and make me feel good about myself for being with you”

      So of course they want that often.

  47. Stingray – I also am an ISTJ. A chatty and semi-social ISTJ. Might be an interesting datum for you.

    I have read to the effect that women change to mould themselves to their partner. (Airy-fairy theories, I do not know for certain one way or another.) Might that be a part of why you changed?

    PS I am tending to think these days that MBTI/Jungian Cognitive Functions are more along the lines of coping mechanisms rather than anything hard’n’fast. More airy-fairy theories of my own.

  48. Yohami, deep doesn’t mean just telling her how you feel about her feelings, it means also helping her to uncover her inner goodness in the way that she agonized for almost a few moments when she betrayed one friend at the expense of another. In other words, you hold your metaphorical conch of an echo chamber to her metaphorical ear and its solipsistic otoacoustic emissions, and she can hear what she wants to hear, deeply.

  49. Jf12,

    I read somewhere that a woman’s favorite converstional subject is whatever she is feeling the moment she is feeling it. Or her current feelings about past feelings. Or your feelings as viewed in the context of her feelings.

  50. I’ve never met a woman who actually wanted…”deep meaningful conversations, often.” I think this is another lie that women tell themselves.

    Well, yes and no. It’s not so much a lie as it is that men and women have different meanings for what this means. It’s what both you and Yohami said and a great deal of combining the two as well. The right man could take the most complex engineering, and if he does it right, a woman will *feel* intensely all through it. If he just explains it, she will get bored and it’s will be done. But add in eye contact, strong body language, and even better if he related the conversation somehow back to her. Basically, it just means, if it makes her feel strongly (about him, about life, good about herself, etc) it’s a deep meaningful conversation.

    Woman are not good at and hate what men mean by a deep meaningful conversation. The argument and debate, presenting and then criticizing ideas, and the ad hominems (that so often you all can then get up from the table and it is ALL over). That is not our idea of deep conversation at all. Then the feelings are NOT good and most women hate it.

    And no, you don’t sound arrogant. Most women are not that well read because they simply aren’t interested in most of the same things as men. Can women learn this stuff if they wanted? Sure. Can and willing are not the same thing and women tend to get those highly mixed up. They see one woman able and willing and then conflate that to all women. If most woman would just own up to it, I don’t think most men would be that terribly bothered by it.

  51. A chatty and semi-social ISTJ

    This is me as well, though I tend to come across as a bit awkward or weird when I am meeting most people for the first time because I am not very good with small talk.

    Might that be a part of why you changed?

    Oh yes. Definitely. I was ignorant and lead by my feelings (if it felt right it was right. That conversation with my husband is a memorable one). I was also quite wordily stupid. So, I did change and I have not doubt I changed a great deal, especially at first, for him. I don’t think this is an uncommon thing either, regardless of what feminist like to say. I’ve read quite a few woman who’ve said they identified with feminism and then found a dominant man whom they then settled down with in a submissive and happy relationship. Most women who say they would never EVER do this have never found a dominant man who inspired them to do so (most dominant men aren’t interested in taking the time to do this).

    As to the MBTI, yeah. I tend to agree. It is kind of fun to find out what everyone is, though. I think there is a little bit to them (it also saves some time in these comm boxes in describing certain personality traits), but overall, it’s only very general.

  52. @Stringray, ESTJ here. I’m not sure what you mean by “(most dominant men aren’t interested in taking the time to do this).” They aren’t interested in taking the time to find a woman who chooses to submit?

    I think essentially every woman’s failure to submit comes from the same place as essentially every woman’s failure to diet, and it has nothing to do with what her husband does or doesn’t do.

  53. I hit submit too soon. I meant to add that, no, most often it highly depends on what the husband does (Unless she is highly religious and has been taught that she is called to submit no matter what her husband does).

    Submitting to a man who is non-dominant, the effort required to do this is huge and the longer she must submit the more difficult it becomes. If the man will not lead, there is a vacuum and she will naturally fill it whether she wants to or not. Only women resent having to lead and they will disrespect a man who lets her take that position.

  54. @Stingray “Most women are not that well read because they simply aren’t interested in most of the same things as men. Can women learn this stuff if they wanted? Sure. Can and willing are not the same thing and women tend to get those highly mixed up. They see one woman able and willing and then conflate that to all women. If most woman would just own up to it, I don’t think most men would be that terribly bothered by it.”

    This is interesting and timely… Just last night, wife was on the computer bouncing around to celebrity gossip sites and sharing all this gossip with me that I really could not possibly care less about. I ask her how she could possibly get enjoyment out of that shit… She bounces over to an article about Victor Yanukovych and the situation in the Ukraine, points to it and says “Well, it’s a hell of a lot more exciting than THIS!”

    I just rolled my eyes and shook my head… But it got me thinking. Women typically don’t give a shit about world affairs, history, etc. They just don’t seem interested in pondering, learning about, debating the big issues.

    There has to be a bio/evo explanation for this, and my best guess is that women’s concerns/interests have always been more provincial, localized and trivial. Picture a bunch of women sitting around a campfire hen party cluck session in primitive societies… Sharing gossip as they threshed the grain or made clothes.

    Rich Zubaty’s book “What Men Know That Women Don’t: How to Love Women Without Losing Your Soul” takes it one step further… He posits that men are more spiritual and intellectually curious than women and makes the case that every human society acknowledges an Earth Mother (grounded, concerned with practical things, materialistic (look at the Latin root “mater” meaning woman, mother, matronly) and the Sky father… Up in the sky, dreamy, creative, spontaneous, seeking understanding and pondering bigger issues.

    That’s why the greatest inventions and innovations in history were all accomplished by men… We may be impractical as shit and prone to huge risk. We may often fail and have our heads in the cloud. But when we score, we score big.

  55. @Stingray, no man I can imagine would mind bothering to dominate if she would actually respond correctly. The concept driving men’s behavior is expected return on investment: if a man has never been given reason by a woman for him to think she will submit, then she is not worth the effort. In contrast, a woman who is nice and easy to submit is well worth the effort.

  56. Re: “deep, meaningful conversations”

    And the last thing a woman wants in a “deep, meaningful conversation is for the guy to talk about things important to HIM or, even worse, about HIS feelings. HIS feelings, wants, needs, and desires are the LAST things she wants to talk about because that’s so….beta.

  57. @ Josey Wales – For the longest time I maintained the illusion that women were as interested in the larger world and the world of ideas as men are. Time after time I found myself stymied trying to have conversations with lovers, sisters, my daughter about topics that I found interesting – which men would jump right in on – only to see their eyes roll, or even worse, the blank stare that indicated they had no idea what I am talking about.

    It’s gets worse as you get older as knowledge accumulates and connects with and complements other knowledge. At 51, I simply don’t bother to have conversations with women about current events or ideas. They simply are on a child-like level of other understanding. On the off chance that some woman has read about Yanokovich and the Ukraine, when I mention that is this as a continuation of the unfinished Orange Revolution – well, that’s it. They are out. Most women are intellectual children to me by this point in my life. After a lifetime of constantly reading both fiction and non-fiction, and also reading serious periodicals daily (amazing what reading a newspaper for an hour a day will do for your mind and awareness of the world) – I’m simply on another level than virtually any women I encounter. Even smart women – like my sister who has a Ph.D. in English composition – her curiosity is limited to her field and when she gets out of it she’s simply not that knowledgeable.

    I also find that women get quite competitive and miffed when you show them up in a conversation, which is another reason I don’t engage. On the other hand, my male friends and I don’t really get upset when one or the other knows something new and we gobble it up and acknowledge it. Just the other night, one of my closest friends called me on his hour long drive home from work, asking, “What is actually going on in the Ukraine?”, knowing that I’m a news junkie and interested. He doesn’t care in the least that he doesn’t understand it, rather, he’s using his drive time productively to squeeze me for info and insight so he can be informed. There is no competition, rather just a shared hunger for knowledge – and fyi, this friend readily tells me I’m one of the smartest people he knows without any jealousy. It’s just how it is and neither he nor I care.

    Men are utilitarian about knowledge and information, women see it as an accessory and weapon.

  58. ” When I got in line he was hugging up on her from behind, leaning in and she stood there like a tree. His posture and body language, as well as his attitude instantly told me this couple’s relational dynamic – he was the qualifying Beta and she was the mouthy, hard-to-please Hyena.

    She noticed me when I came up. I was the only other person in Subway and I still had my gym clothes on. Some top 40 crap song came on the overhead and she blathered out, “I hate this shit music. They should put Metallica or Slayer on, that would be funny.” as if she expected the Beta to ask the management to switch stations. She gives me a glance as if offering an opening after that comment. I order my daughters sandwich.

    “No! Don’t get me lemonade, it’s too syrupy here, get me diet Dr. Pepper.” she belts out to the Beta dutifully getting their drinks. The sandwich artist asks here what she’d like on her sandwich – reaches over and touches my forearm (IOI, kino) “This might take a while, I’m very choosy”, she says to me in her ‘tone’.”

    My take on such women is that they are with that beta boy because they are too immature to handle an actual man, beta or otherwise. So, they date a type of “man” who isn’t much more masculine, or grown up than they are. Sure, she was gaming herself with you, but she would never pick you; she chose beta boy precisely because adult men intimidate her.

  59. Stingray – “Woman are not good at and hate what men mean by a deep meaningful conversation. The argument and debate, presenting and then criticizing ideas, and the ad hominems (that so often you all can then get up from the table and it is ALL over). That is not our idea of deep conversation at all. Then the feelings are NOT good and most women hate it.”

    This is an astute observation. I have a close friend who I argue with in the most dramatic ways. His wife (now ex) once lamented that she felt like she would never have the same connection to her husband that I did because we could yell and hurl insults at one another for a hour and just stop and change subjects to baseball or the weather as if the argument had never happened. And we made her feel stupid. His new model super young girlfriend will actually participate in our arguments which is a great deal of fun, and it makes her feel smart.

  60. Josey Wales,

    I agree completely and given men’s propensity for the wordily and women’s for the hearth, it makes perfect sense that our roles for thousands of years reflected that. What people can’t seem to fathom is that just because women can now share those wordily aspirations is that we still don’t want to. It’s like that’s our natural role or something. 😀

  61. jf12,

    I agree with you. Women today don’t know how to submit. We have never been taught. Rather, we are taught just the opposite; to put up a fight the whole way.

  62. Rollo,

    Thank you, but I can’t take credit. It’s been said in more than a few comments sections but I couldn’t tell you where, when, or who has said it.

  63. And we made her feel stupid.

    Yep, because when women do argue like what you described, the object is to make the other feel stupid. We tend to think men are doing the same thing when in reality, it seems men do this as a challenge.

  64. Stingray – “because when women do argue like what you described, the object is to make the other feel stupid.”

    And my experience is men are demonstrating their cleverness to each other without intending malice.

    Thank you, your observations are very useful. I look forward to applying them in the field. I’ll try to use them for good and not evil.

  65. An actual lively and thoughtful discussion where we can thrash out concepts without having to beat some feminist drone around the head with a two-by-four. Nice.

    With reference to women arguing to make others feel stupid: I eventually stopped playing chess with my ex-wife because she hated losing. It made her feel stupid. In fact I basically stopped playing chess at all.

    With reference to trying to use things for good not evil – LOL. Just use the damn tools. Unless you’re hooking someone on drugs or killing them for kicks it can hardly be considered evil – amoral at worst.

  66. Re: “women arguing to make others feel stupid”. This is my experience also. Women (not men) tend to argue with me all the time about things about which I’m obviously correct, even the littlest things, as if the fact of their taking a different position puts them on the same level as me (if not higher).

  67. “Women (not men) tend to argue with me all the time about things about which I’m obviously correct, even the littlest things, “
    Long ago I realized that this seemingly compulsive behavior could be turned to fun and profit.
    After say two iterations, I slyly curl one of Her Majesty’s Fine Olde Englishe banknotes out and declare “but Betty here says I’m right”.
    Strangely, I am rarely if ever required to go to the tiresome effort of demonstrating why.
    Wouldn’t work on a guy, I’d have to spend a week compiling references and materials.
    I prefer to do it for drinks, one per combative expostulation of girly dissent, to be claimed at a bar of their choosing at some convenient later time. That actually does get me the payoff fairly frequently, whereas flipping the Queen at them seems to act like curare on their argument-lobe, and I just get to be right. Which is no fun at all. Because I already knew that.

  68. “but Betty here says I’m right” am I understanding you to say that women back down from wagering? That too is my experience. So whence the profit?

  69. Badpainter,

    Remember, with great power . . . . 😉

    I all seriousness, thank you. I appreciate that and I’m glad to hear that I could be of some help.

  70. “And the last thing a woman wants in a “deep, meaningful conversation is for the guy to talk about things important to HIM or, even worse, about HIS feelings.”

    It’s always surprising how common it is to hear women telling men that they need to get with the 21st century and learn to express their feelings, when it is in fact women’s preference for stoic men that has made and continues to make men this way in the first place.

    The minute she perceives him pleading for her emotional support it will set her alarm bells ringing; any support she gives has to come voluntarily or she will resent giving it and also him for needing it.
    Similarly he has to be careful not to end up as her emotional dumping ground. Women always need to vent and many guys view her wittering about herself as her opening up to him and so encourage it – when in fact it isn’t so. It’s fine talking things over but in the end that’s what her friends are for.

  71. In the cocktails, I’m afraid.
    The banknote ploy is usually an act of despair before I lose my mind and start stabbing them in their obtuse ears with ballpoint pens, and can only be pulled off in front of (preferably many) witnesses.
    It’s what I do if they start bitching me up about some aspect of my work which they think I am ignorant of “because they’ve seen such-and-such on the telly/magazine/bloodyTwitter saying whatever”.
    Done it for decades, and does help in that women who’ve known me for a long time think twice before launching the needling shark attacks. The nicer ones just smile and fold straight away, due to experience. And instantly change the subject. Especially if they see my finger and thumb discreetly probing my pocket. An extraordinarily rare occurrence at the best of times.

    It also gets me a reputation as an old meanie who delights in viciously humiliating honest girls and their earnest, forthright opinions. Boo! Hiss!
    Never occurs to them that they might, just might, be snide gobby nitwits and I’ve been in the trade since their mothers and even grandmothers were virgins, so I might have at least half a clue.

  72. @ Tam the Bam -The nature of knowledge and intelligence is that it’s cumulative and interdependent. If one actually makes a regular practice of accumulating knowledge in a given field, there seems to me to be a compounding effect in terms of one’s knowledge that accelerates one’s understanding versus a person who casually engages with this information. My observation of women’s engagement with knowledge is that they are very results driven and will find info to solve a problem – in the way that one might look up a recipe. Men, are the other hand, are generally more broadly curious. Example: Just this morning, I’m listening to a lecture on abiogenesis by Professor Szostak of Harvard on YouTube. I’m just curious about biochemistry and genetics – there is no ‘use’ for this knowledge in my life. In fact, I’ve never studied science beyond high school, but as an adult have familiarized myself with physics and evolution, and only now have moved on to this subject matter. Just because it pleases me to learn.

    The implication of this is that as men get older, they generally become much more knowledgeable than women in the areas they dedicate themselves to. An interesting bit of data that gives insight to this is the prevalence of men on the internet. It’s funny to me that feminists complain that so much of the web is a “white male space” – when there is no barrier to access. Men have responded to the availability of limitless information on all subjects for free by diving in deeply. Women? Celebrity gossip and fashion sites – and sites that talk about “women’s issues”. The iBiology vid by Szostak I’m watching has 23,733 views. How many are from women? I wish I owned the channel so I could see but what you’d invariably find is that 90% or more of the views are by men.

    This is why I laugh when women talk about men becoming “obsolete”. As more of us take the “Red Pill” and more and more of us will realize men’s worth, and what women are really good for in our lives, I wonder what we’ll do? As the intelligence gap widens with age because we are living longer, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that in a couple of generations, men are accelerating away from women in terms of ownership of the technological world. The information age should be quite good for men – we just need to wake more of our brothers up and act in greater solidarity with each other. This is why MGTOW concerns me – isolating and dropping out is the exact opposite reaction from what we should be doing to regain power in society.

      1. It look remarkably like a toothbrush cup 🙂 And how is your toothbrush cup?

        (Its nice that we can get over our differences and have these normal conversations.)

  73. @Stingray

    …The right man could take the most complex engineering, and if he does it right, a woman will *feel* intensely all through it. If he just explains it, she will get bored and it’s will be done. But add in eye contact, strong body language, and even better if he related the conversation somehow back to her. Basically, it just means, if it makes her feel strongly (about him, about life, good about herself, etc) it’s a deep meaningful conversation.

    No, that’s a tailored lecture (if not raw game), not a conversation. A conversation goes back and forth by definition. This looks like another rock under which the FI has created semantics to be used to covertly demand domination under the guise of equality.

  74. Jeremy, I was going to say that it could be a conversation as she will likely respond somewhat (tell me about my eyes) but I think you’re right. Regardless, this is typically what women want in a deep conversation with a man. If she’s smart, she will ask intelligent questions and let the man teach her something and keep the conversation going that way, but it does still end up being a tailored lecture at that point.

    This looks like another rock under which the FI has created semantics to be used to covertly demand domination under the guise of equality.

    Quite possibly, but it must be understood that none of this is conscious. Seeing the truth that we want to be dominated while being given benevolent sexism is incredibly hard to see on the surface. Women are just as good, if not better, at manipulating themselves as they are others.

    Also, while you are right that it’s doesn’t end up being a conversation in the traditional sense, basically this (and also what Yohami said earlier) is what women mean when they say they want deep conversation.

  75. Jeremy- “No, that’s a tailored lecture (if not raw game), not a conversation. A conversation goes back and forth by definition.

    It’s only game if speaker knows it’s game. It explains why sometimes I get doe eyed looks from women when I’ve been talking about esoteric subjects that only I find interesting. What Stingray is describing is why an otherwise gifted and brilliant professor puts a hundred students to sleep and why the cowboy poet holds a room whilst talking about calf scours. It’s in the story telling. I had never considered that there might be tingles generated by stories about thermodynamics. You’re right it’s not a conversation, but if done properly the listener is engaged and feels she is a part of the lecture because of an emotional connection/reaction.

    Stingray’s observations have been very valuable to me in so far as they’ve revealed that I do have a natural skill that is game applicable right now. Further I now have a decent outline of how and when to apply that skill. It may seem like a subtle inconsequential thing, but for me I must be able to play to my strengths, and lecturing and arguing are two of my best. Sadly y’all will rarely see that as writing is one of my great weaknesses.

  76. EEGuy:

    There are perfectly legit ways of stashing away assets from women. Hell, even if one gets hit by divorce court with monthly payments to the ex-wife, there’s always a way out. Hint: watch the cash flows going to the divorce court.

    Pre-nups are next to worthless as they’re like an addendum to the main marriage contract.

  77. Great article, this is a little off-topic but more referring to a part in the article of the woman shutting off sex.

    This was a conversation at my work place … I kid you not, all women in the room except me. A recently married co-worker (she’s not hot) was bragging about how she’s not having sex with her husband (married about a month) and that it’s not going to happen. This not-hot-at-all woman/heavy-set was almost gloating, a badge of honor. I was stunned and even more shocked that the women at our lunch table were practically high-fiving her.

    I mean, I’m just flabbergasted … of course husband makes no money, is a royal AFC and so forth. But they were a month or so into the marriage. When recently married women are bragging about shutting off sex and getting massive approval from other females … wow, the world is a strange place.

    They looked to me for approval, a smile, smirk, anything. They got nothing from me and I got some dirty looks.

  78. Westcoaster, you seem to have done the right thing. A face of stone with no expression can convey disapproval but not in a way that can be objected to.

    If you have another place to go work, then you could have asked, “So, when is the divorce?” in a chirpy, cheerful tone.

  79. My nit picking isn’t directed at Stingrays understanding or ability to understand. Definitions of words are valuable to men because they form a structure on which a meritocracy (a male power structure) can function. Without clearly (almost mathematically) defined success, there’s no way to “win” anything. Men are born to compete, and clearly defined words form the rules by which those competitions are engaged in.

    Those same definitions seem to be covertly remade by women purely to extract whatever is valuable from those same power structures. This fluid definition of “deep conversation” is an example, albeit an awkward one. I can accept Stingray’s explanation of what women might mean/want from “deep conversation”. However, only a fool would take one such definition as concrete and applicable to all women. The female definition for specific words/phrases that have anything to do with what they desire from men are deliberately never expressed such that those with a masculine persuasion will insert their own definition. That insertion of male definition into female verbal expression is an expected outcome by women. I would never go so far as to accuse your average woman of doing this consciously, but they are doing it. This is why Rollo (and others) say that men should ignore what women say (paraphrasing) and simply look at her actions.

    When Stingray said, initially, the words “deep meaningful conversation,” they were in the middle of a description of a caricature of an impossible alpha whom women think might exist. The rest of her description is something a red-pill man might use to describe alpha, but that one phrase stuck out as something out of blue-pill land that belongs right alongside “enjoys long walks on the beach.”

    It is interesting to see even red pill women needing a fluid definition for those things they want from men. That is not an accusation.

    Keep in mind ladies, the groups of people most likely to obfuscate, remain silent on, or generally lie about what they want in return for something, are carnies, politicians, and con artists.

  80. Glenn, I wish wish wish it was otherwise. The number of times I’ve had a woman enthuse about my (stultifyingly simple, at base) manual occupation and gone “Gee whillikers, that’s ace! I’ll show you how if you like. Yes for nowt, well maybe.. ” (yes, you guessed it, for a drinky-poo or two).
    The answers range from the predictable (too busy, cold, bored etc.) to the frankly outlandish (no, I don’t want to do all that, just kinda upsum it and Tell Me How). Give me The Secret, sensei!

    Added for Jeremy: “that’s a tailored lecture (if not raw game), not a conversation”
    And to me looks pretty much indistinguishable from “more consumption”.

    I once had a serious girl (there was an abort, despite my dismay) practically order me to give her my actual job (in a former, far less bluecollar trade, with gubmint moolah washing around its foundations).
    And I could get a “proper job” as I dunno, an insurance salesman, or a department store manager, exactly like her dad, so there would be some money as well.
    Shit test duly accepted.

    “OK pet, for a smart girl like you it should be a doddle.”
    [Started hauling doorstep textbooks on the basics off shelves and out of closets, and separating them into tottering piles on the rug in front of her. This was pre-internet, we had a just-released Commodore PET at work, and it was treated like the little green-eyed god, My nerdier mates were building Spectrums from kits in their squalid bedsits].

    “Read this pile first in no particular order, ask me if you get stuck, and then go on to the next. I’ll dig out the comparative materials and instruments (i.e. actual stuff) from my stash at work. I didn’t know you were even interested, this is great!”

    “But that’ll take ages!”

    “Not really, it only took me about ten years including school, and I’m as thick as pigshit. You’ll waltz it, especially with my help” (True, I was being paid as a specialist in the field at the time, having weaselled my way in on the basis of not much at all apart from having my face about the place, and drinking in the right bars (very important, at the time, we’re talking The Sweeney-era)).

    “But ..but, no! I didn’t mean that. That’s simply not fair! You’re supposed to be my partner, and that means being supportive! Why can’t you just tell me?”

    L
    O
    L

  81. Mmm thought I’d better check, because I know what you lot are like .. that’ll be a 4000-series Commodore and ZX80 kits.
    Seems like the late iron age or something – no CCTV, no cellphones, not even calculators until just then, one each of (1) state-provided telecoms, utilities, transport and broadcast media (OK one-and-a-half), no wandering round Europe on a day trip, shops open 9-5 and a half-day Wednesday and Saturday, no Sundays. Everything shut down tight at 10 p.m. after opening at 5 pm (plus lunchtimes) including boozers and eateries) and definitely no women getting served in the pubs either, except in metropolitan areas!
    No wonder we needed hobbies, apart from smoking, that is :¬)

  82. It is interesting to see even red pill women needing a fluid definition for those things they want from men. That is not an accusation.

    I understand that this is not an accusation, but I am confused. I meant this whole thing (link to comment just in case) to be a caricature of an impossible alpha and intentionally blue pill. What is my mistake?

    He has to be simultaneously sensitive and masculine. The strong silent type who will have deep meaningful conversations, often. Make lots of money and have all the time in the world to spend time with and cater to her. He must be masculine when she wants it and feminine at the exact same time.

  83. Hay Stingray! I know that exact guy! Name of Grey, Christian Grey.

    A millionaire superstud, who never does any work, dominates all who cross his path with a mere glance (what, even scaffolders? I’d pay to see that), is personally extremely fastidious to the point of gheydom and beyond, and never, ever fucks around. I mean like never, gottit? And hasn’t ever got legless/wasted or been in a fight, either. What a diamond geezer.
    Whaddyamean, he’s made-up?

  84. Take it a bit further down the rabbit hole…. men have a tendency to blame themselves and then find ‘solutions’ to the problem that rely on them doing things…. fixes in effect….. All fine and good from a male stand point.

    My experience and research indicates that no amount of redpill or betterment makes any real or lasting difference where women are concerned… if it did wealthy handsome alphas would settle down with lovely women having attracted the cream of the crop, and they would be happy.

    What happens instead is that even the best alphas on top of their game find vapid, pathetic women, that can not provide any lasting benefit to their lives. You might avoid the most bitchy problematic hoes, you will get to bang hotter younger chicks…. BUT there is no cream of the crop…. and no amount of self improvement will get you anything more than a better level of unhappiness with women.

    There is no cream of the crop, because all the cream is sour. If you want to work out… fine go do it… if you want to make loads of money fine… go do it…. if you want to climb mountains or become a famous engineer…. great…. learn game, be more confident, be more fun and dynamic, but there is no happiness or final solution to females… they are all little spoilers, their very essence is about disrupting and degrading. A pig cannot be a horse…. it just cannot… no matter how well you learn to ride horses, buy equipment, dress up for horse riding… it just doesn’t matter much because there are no horses… only pigs…. riding a pig in the long run is no fun. It’s not even that interesting in the short run, and no one really wants to get to know a pig.

  85. @jf12 @Richard – the point of Alphaness is to have an amazing life without being controlled by women. Vapid types come and go, whatever happens YOUR life is awesome. If someone shows or not is irrelevant, if she’s worth having around longer-term is irrelevant, the quantity or lack thereof of women is irrelevant.

    Not being controlled by your dick is what’s relevant. Not being a slave or fool is what’s relevant (Rollo did a post). Not making vagina the center of your world is what’s relevant.

  86. “the point of Alphaness is to have an amazing life without being controlled by women……If someone shows or not is irrelevant, if she’s worth having around longer-term is irrelevant, the quantity or lack thereof of women is irrelevant.”

    Exactly right. This is really the only thing which is within every man’s control. The irony is if you don’t care and enjoy your life without making women the centre of it, they will often want in – such as it is when a man understands and transmits his innate value to those around him. Mgtow or not, if a man is not at least to some degree going his own way, whose way is he going? When a man goes his own way, only then are women happy to be his companion.

    With regard to what Richard said “There is no cream of the crop, because all the cream is sour.” – if you did in fact think you’d found the cream of the crop, she would undoubtedly cotton on how you felt and be gone. There is no cream of the crop, in the same way as there are no stunningly beautiful women – just cute ones.

  87. Tam the Bam,

    And there is one of him for every single one of us, right? Our own special guy who just gets it.

    (I am happy to say that it took me a couple of minutes to figure out who Christian Grey is.)

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