Beta Fucks

beta_fucks

I had an interesting experience last Friday. I had finished a good workout and was on my way home when Bebé Tomassi texted me asking if I would pick up a sandwich for her from Subway and bring it to her at a school function. Sure, why not.

I get into the local Subway at around 6:30 pm and it being a Friday night and Subway isn’t the most happening place to be on a Friday, I’m there with only a couple ahead of me in line. The woman looked to be late 20’s, I’d guess 27-28, and not too bad looking – 5′ 9″-10″, blonde – if she’d been dressed better she might rate a 7 on the Tomassi scale. The guy she’s with was thin, short mop of hair, about the same height, maybe around her age.

What made them notable was the gender dynamic between them I picked up on immediately. Within the first 3 minutes of coming up behind them in line the guy had made every Beta tell I think Roissy has a term for. When I got in line he was hugging up on her from behind, leaning in and she stood there like a tree. His posture and body language, as well as his attitude instantly told me this couple’s relational dynamic – he was the qualifying Beta and she was the mouthy, hard-to-please Hyena.

She noticed me when I came up. I was the only other person in Subway and I still had my gym clothes on. Some top 40 crap song came on the overhead and she blathered out, “I hate this shit music. They should put Metallica or Slayer on, that would be funny.” as if she expected the Beta to ask the management to switch stations. She gives me a glance as if offering an opening after that comment. I order my daughters sandwich.

“No! Don’t get me lemonade, it’s too syrupy here, get me diet Dr. Pepper.” she belts out to the Beta dutifully getting their drinks. The sandwich artist asks here what she’d like on her sandwich – reaches over and touches my forearm (IOI, kino) “This might take a while, I’m very choosy”, she says to me in her ‘tone’.

“I’m not in a hurry.”

Sandwiches get made, Beta pays. My girl’s sandwich is done at the same time (she’s not too choosy), and as Alpha Girl and Beta Boy are about to leave she grabs both their sandwiches and mine ‘by mistake’. The Subway cashier stops her to tell her she picked up my sandwich (remember, we’re the only people in the store), Beta puffs a nervous laugh, she looks at me, “Ohh, sorry,..” hands me the bag and holds eye contact just that beat longer than normal.

“Come on we gotta go.”, Beta reaches around her waist, and like the cane that pulls a bad actor off the stage, they exit.

Passive Game

I did nothing to actively Game this girl, she was Gaming herself. I’ve seen this before. There’s a branch of Game (I think Roosh mentions it) that speculates that sometimes girls will Game themselves and all you need to do is not fuck it up. Sometimes less is more; when a woman is already attracted to you, Game becomes remaining aware of the indicators, allowing the proper flow and just presuming the sale.

I preface today’s post with this because it ties in nicely to a particular discussion last week’s post sparked. I’ll admit, being married kind of puts a Man in a ‘nothing to lose’ perspective. A lot of guys like to speculate that a wedding ring makes a man more desirable – it doesn’t. If married men are at all attractive to women it’s not due to some fantasy of preselection by his wife making him more attractive as a long term prospect; it’s because, generally, he’s not actively pursuing women. There’s a certain power in indifference – you’re far more desirable when you aren’t qualifying yourself to women, and no guy is more indifferent than one who knows with all certainty who he’ll be banging that evening.

However, there is also an amplification of attraction and arousal for a more Alpha man when a woman is in a relationship with a man she perceives as Beta. A similar amplification also becomes heightened when a woman is the focus of one or more Beta orbiters. The persistent affirmation by, and supplication of, Beta men puts that Alpha in a spotlight. A constant atmosphere of Beta attention and concern has an effect of preselecting that (more) Alpha Man for a woman. A common complaint many Beta men share is being an emotional tampon for a woman, listening and commiserating with her about the ‘asshole boyfriend’, only to have her desire for him become more amplified and off she goes for her desired sex with him again. The Beta(s) rationalizes this as ‘a moment of weakness’ for his special girl, but is unaware that his constant Beta affirmations contribute to her attraction to that Alpha.

As I stated, I wouldn’t have had to apply much Game to the Subway girl – the Beta boyfriend had already done a lot of the heavy lifting. This particular dynamic is something to remember if you’re Gaming a girl with a boyfriend or a girl who drops a boyfriend disclaimer into casual conversation. A girl’s boyfriend may not be the Beta this guy was, but if he is, let that form the basis of your Game. I should also add that this ‘Beta does the lifting’ dynamic is the root of AMOGing and running boyfriend destroyer Game. You should also be aware when this tactic is being run on yourself.

Husband = Beta

Now before you think I’ve gone completely mercenary, this incident made me think of this comment from last week’s post from Lucas Bly:

So essentially, I’m reading the last four paragraphs of your essay to read:

“She married you because you are a provider, not because she was attracted to you. She’ll never be as attracted to you as she was to her previous Alpha Fucks.”

That’s a tough pill to swallow, my brother.

The issue being, of course, what to do with yourself, and with her, after you discover you got gamed into that kind of marriage.

Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.

In the interests of full disclosure, Lucas had petitioned me earlier about his particular situation being similar to the guy in Saving the Best. What the kid in the Subway made me think of was a wondering if he had at one time been relatively Alpha enough to attract this dominant woman, or if she perceived him in a good provider role. She certainly fit the script of the 27-29 year old woman looking to cash out of the SMP before her attractiveness capital (such as it was) expired. But on the other hand, she wasn’t averse to giving a perceptual Alpha IOIs right under his nose. It’s an interesting passive cuckolding effect.

Lucas’ musings prompted the question: Does an Alpha (perceptually) drop in status for a woman once he’s committed to monogamy with her?

One common situation I get from newly red pill men is that after a few years they find themselves trapped in a sexless marriage or living arrangement and they want to know how to get back to the hot monkey sex they had (or their wives had with previous lovers) in the early stages of their relationship. Once they become red pill / Game aware and realize what they are and how they got there, the next question is how to get back to what he had before.

The question is usually along the lines of “Help Rollo, I used to be really Alpha back in the day, but now my wife sees me as a Beta provider, what do I do?” Virtually every man on the Married Man Sex Life forums looks for a solution there for some variation of this situation, but is it that marriage itself, by it’s very nature predisposes a woman to view her husband in a Beta status? The go-to definition is Beta Provider, not Alpha provider.

Hypergamy being what it is, it’s Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks; if a woman, being the arbiter and decider with whom she will pair-off with in the long term, has agreed to commitment with a man, it would follow that on some level (whether true or not) she believes this man will be a provider and parent for her and future children. So the question then isn’t so much about a man backsliding to Beta after having been considered Alpha enough to fuck the woman who would be his wife, that may be, but rather it’s the familiarity and provisioning that define marriage makes a woman consider him Beta-provider by default.

Dr. Warren Farrell explored this in some of his writing. He posited that the familiarity of marriage predisposes women to consider their husbands as family members, thus the concept of sex with a family member is repelling for women. This is further complicated by parenthood; when boyfriend becomes husband, and then husband becomes Daddy, the family familiarity dynamic makes having sex less and less appealing.

I think there may be something to this, but when you combine it with a fattening and less appealing Daddy, and Mommy, the complex worsens. Thus any strange, outsider, Alpha becomes the stuff of fantasy for women.

Burninator picks up the narrative:

“After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off?

My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped.”

He’s referring of course to the husband in the Saving the Best post. I’m not entirely sure most guys, and especially men with a Beta mindset, are very receptive to the red flag warnings telegraphed by women, but Deti makes a good stab at it:

1. A guy in that situation should take note of the kinds and types of men she was attracted to/fucked before. Huge red flag if you are markedly different from those kinds of men. For example: She used to date guys in shitty bands and small time pro athletes. But she’s now taken quite a shine to mid level business managers and guys with steady jobs. Indicates she’s changing lanes; going for the beta bucks. This woman is for dating; not for marriage.

2. She was a slut with other guys; makes you wait; then when she finally does take the plunge, the sex is of pornstar quality. Seems to be putting on an act; a performer on stage.

3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex.

4. Firmly controls the sex. Won’t do certain things; will have sex only at certain times; doesn’t like certain sexual acts because “only sluts do THAT” and “I don’t want you to think I’m a slut”. Immediately gets up after sex to expel the semen because “I don’t want to get a yeast infection” or to take care of the wet spot.

5. Closely related to this is that she remains in control of herself during sex. Never seems to be completely free or enjoying herself; always assessing her own performance and your evaluation of her sexually.

6. Wants to move rapidly to commitment. Puts out overt and subtle hints that she expects ever increasing investment and commitment in exchange for the sex she’s doling out.

These are pretty good tells for a woman looking to cash out of the SMP with a provider, but again, I’m not entirely convinced that women in the Epiphany Phase of life are reserving these tells exclusively for Beta men.

Validational Sex vs. Transactional Sex

Commenter jf12 brings us to the heart of the matter:

At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming).

It should also be noted that when a female primate does engage in a transactional sex exchange with a Beta male, it’s during the down cycle of her menstruation (point of lowest potential fertility). As with female primates (including humans), when she is in the proliferative phase of her menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation, and the highest potential fertility) her biochemistry predisposes her to seek out the sexual attentions of more Alpha (masculinized) ‘good genes’ males.

I covered this fundamental at length in Schedules of Mating. Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks is the behavioral manifestation of feminine hypergamy and the dualistic nature of women’s sexual strategy as prompted by female biology. From an evolutionary / adaptive species-survival standpoint, women’s sexuality is nothing if not pragmatic and often opportunistic.

Most often when I’m asked the “How do I get my wife to fuck me again?” it’s coming from a man who once thought he had the best his wife had to offer, sexually, emotionally, etc. only to discover she had or still has the potential to be much more than he can coax from her or she’s willing to give to him. Again, I have to come back to the question, does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?

I’ve had the premise that only Beta men consider getting married thrown at me on occasion. I think this presumption may be putting the cart before the horse – maybe, eventually, a man cannot help but be perceived as a Beta by his wife because he is her husband, a parent and provider (or should be). Many divorced men express disbelief when they discover just how wildly sexual their ex-wives can be with their new lovers. They take it as some personal failing that they were unable to bring out the slut in their wives when they were married, but I might argue that their position as husband and father made this impossible for them.

There’s a lot more I could write about this. What do you do if you find yourself in this situation? Leave, divorce, cheat on her? That may be enough to push past that comfortable familiarity. I can think of one married blogger who’s husband cheated on her with the result being her unconditional submission. Dread Game, both overt and soft dread, might cut through that familiarity. Strong Frame control is the lynchpin to a good relationship, ensuring that your SMV is above that of your wife or LTR, and knowing the power this has can keep an Alpha impression functional.

However, in the end, you have to evaluate the worth of changing yourself in order to reestablish that Alpha sex connection. If divorce isn’t an option for you due to religious convictions, then you’ll have to factor that into your evaluation. If not, then you’ll have to consider the depth and importance your commitment means to you versus the effort (or even having to make an effort) you’ll make to reestablish yourself. You’ll need to consider this with all the logic and rationalism at your disposal, divorced from emotional considerations – most times that’s the most difficult part. You’ll want to couch your decision making process based on Relational Equity, but you have to set aside that emotionalism and use cold pragmatism.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
6 years ago

@jf12

“Although definitely a side-topic . . .”

I notice the same thing with some of the women I date. Think it’s a shit test? Or is she demonstrating sexual attraction to you? Or is she being a competitive modern woman by trying to be one of the guys? Or is she trying to set up the shit test in which you agree the woman’s hot and we all know her response: “hotter than me?”

I think they’re used to having men do the old beta squirm and stammer routine. I look at it as an opportunity to DHV.

Acksiom
Acksiom
6 years ago

Yes, marriage shouldn’t have to be constant speadsheet maintenance of your wife’s moods, just like the rest of your relationships in life, whether public or personal. It used to be that their community would take on some of that load and help keep wives on the sensible side, in various ways. Now, however, your communities actively encourage your wives to make it harder on both of you. Look at the mass media messages. Marriage is a contract between a couple on one side and a community on the other, and your communities are blatantly violating their responsibilities to both, and… Read more »

Kate
Kate
6 years ago

Honestly, what kind of person do you take me for? Of course I’d have the same opinion. It would be a tragic death and it would be a sister on sister crime. It is worth reminding oneself every day about the importance of looking out for each other. That means no messing with another person’s spouse- regardless of gender- no matter how special and unique the “love” seems. All it is is an indication that something is wrong with the primary relationship.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Bachelorocles re: “Or is she demonstrating sexual attraction to you? Or is she being a competitive modern woman by trying to be one of the guys?” I don’t think so; since it would be so easy for her to demonstrate actual attraction by acting attracted i.e. willing to do what I want. Plus, it’s sort of the same thing women do to each other to make themselves jealous of another woman “Look at her shoes! They’re sooo cute!” In other words, I feel like I’m mostly being given the unwelcome opportunity to act like a girl. I don’t really squirm… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

Apols. for the branch line and all that, but; smug lass in the header pic.; I have still no traction on how you lot rate your “better halves” lol. Now to me she’s an average-to-middling shop-assistant type, more at home on the ironing board or the checkout, than the higher reaches of SWPL-dom. A plank. Maybe a 5-6 (if she cares to wash)? I’d absolutely love an observer’s field guide, I really am mystified by some of the classifications proffered. I suppose it’s different where you are, in that she gets Becky-points ( ©Obsidian) for free. Here, she’s just a… Read more »

Acksiom
Acksiom
6 years ago

And looky here what Insty just linked to: http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=4923 . Money quote: “So far as I can tell there was no marriage penalty in these experiments ? certainly nothing like we have today ? and little or no penalty for earning a higher income. With the passage of time all these incentives have become increasingly more perverse. For example, ove=-r the past 50 years we have added one marriage penalty after another to welfare benefits. There is a very strong marriage penalty in ObamaCare, for example. And even Paul Krugman concedes that the marginal tax rate faced by low-income families… Read more »

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

@Tam

No, they just laughed and drank the wines he bought them. I know this because in the way she told this story it was as though she was puzzled at why he would act this way and laughing that he did it.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Re: pic analysis. This is post-coital bliss in their secondary bedroom on a nice spring morn. Either they left the original wet spot in the other bedroom, or she’s getting away from it presently. The sheets were intended by him to be a gift to a previous girlfriend, but she didn’t like them and they weren’t used much; naturally he hasn’t told this one that story. The eclectic décor is as much a function of his inertia as it is her artistic shortcomings, which can also be read in her hair. Something about the eyes and brows tells me she… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Oops forgot to rate. Absolute 6.8, maybe 7.1 in America due to fitness level.

Kate
Kate
6 years ago

I barely read your post, Rollo. Something about a sandwich. But if you keep that projector running, you can toast your own at home!

Don's Johnson
Don's Johnson
6 years ago

Kate, “But understand that why it happened was a man’s fault moreso than a woman’s. He took what was not his to take. ” How is it the responsibility of the the unattached millionaire to honor a marriage he isn’t involved in? He owes no duty to protect the marriage, save any morality he personally holds. So no, it isn’t “a man’s fault moreso than a woman’s”. In fact, it is ALL HER FAULT. She wasn’t taken, SHE GAVE HERSELF TO HIM. The fact of the matter is she broke her marriage vows to trade up. Game is amoral, but… Read more »

Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
6 years ago

@Don’s Johnson Tsk tsk – reeducation camp for you!!! Wolf Millionaire and the Bad Husband were jointly responsible. Wolf Millionaire unfairly lured and dominated Special Princess and Bad Husband . . . well, it’s safe to assume he did a lot of things wrong and I’m positive Special Princess could innumerate a thousand wrongs Bad Husband did which justify (hamsterize) her behavior. And, lets not forget – Special Princess is entitled to a wealthy husband. But most importantly: women don’t cheat. They’re passive, innocent, special princesses incapable ill intent or bad thoughts and thus cannot do bad things. Sarcasm aside,… Read more »

Sarah's Daughter
Sarah's Daughter
6 years ago

No woman has ever known hardship in a marriage and seen it through. Nope, never happened. A drunk? Why… I never heard such a thing. Cancer? No way. Why there truly are righteous reasons to betray one’s vows. Who knew?

What’s that? For better or worse….fugetaboutit

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

jf12
I’m starting to think (and everyone sighs relief and says “Finally!”) that one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him backrubs.

Backrubs? She has to give something that begins with a “B” but that ain’t it. And per Julian O’Day, she should be on her knees, regularly. It speaks to the back of her head, for a start.

redpillsetmefree
6 years ago

Women don’t want a man that no other woman wants. That never changes.
The more faithful and devoted you are to her, the more sure of you she is, the less attracted she is to you.
The more you cheat(because we see this before marriage), or could cheat, or have potential side pieces the hotter you become in her eyes and she can’t wait to bang you senseless.

Baked Ice.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Sarah’s Daughter
What’s that? For better or worse….fugetaboutit

Long before that point is reached, “Love”, “honor” and “obey” are all gone, generally “obey” is most likely the first one to go.

redpillsetmefree
6 years ago

No woman has ever known hardship in a marriage and seen it through. Nope, never happened. A drunk? Why… I never heard such a thing. Cancer? No way. Why there truly are righteous reasons to betray one’s vows. Who knew? What’s that? For better or worse….fugetaboutit Partial truths, with important omissions. What kind of women? Were the 10s? Did they have the opportunity to trade up? Or were they 3s, and wouldn’t have had anywhere else to go? Did she have a religious background, a strong support system, and the threat of shaming and excommuncation if she backed out of… Read more »

Sarah's Daughter
Sarah's Daughter
6 years ago

generally “obey” is most likely the first one to go.

The first one to go? It is so rarely even there to begin with.

rpsmf,
I’ve not read comments of yours for a while. There’s a new jadedness to them. I understand it, don’t get me wrong, I’m still trying to understand what part of “set me free” applies to you. Though I know it’s a process, yours is taking a particularly long journey through the bitterness stage. Here’s to you reaching the indifferent side.

Cara
Cara
6 years ago

The more you cheat(because we see this before marriage), or could cheat, or have potential side pieces the hotter you become in her eyes and she can’t wait to bang you senseless.

Sorry, I had to pick myself off the floor from laughing at this gem. Yeah, sure she’ll fuck you, you and your DISEASES!

Spurdo
Spurdo
6 years ago

I find these posts about actual dynamics and observations much more interesting and relatable than the stuff about other bloggers and tumblr-people and he-said-she-said. Please keep up the good foundational work Rollo!

redpillsetmefree
6 years ago

I’ve not read comments of yours for a while. There’s a new jadedness to them. If you haven’t read them for a while, how could you say that something’s changed? “New jadedness” and all? I understand it, don’t get me wrong You understand what? I’m still trying to understand what part of “set me free” applies to you. Have you ever considered that you don’t know everything? Though I know it’s a process, yours is taking a particularly long journey through the bitterness stage. Here’s to you reaching the indifferent side. You don’t know anything about my journey. It’s always… Read more »

Richard
Richard
6 years ago

Kick ass article… and an important issue…. I think you miss a couple of very important points…. After years of being with the same woman the problem is that the man doesn’t find her that attractive any more….. especially if there’s been tension, bitchiness, arguments etc. he looks at her and subconsciously doesn’t want to fuck her – not least because it opens up the relationship again and potentially leads back into the cycle of squabbles… most LTRs that last beyond a couple of years end up in kind of ‘doing it for the kids’ stalemate, where there’s an unspoken… Read more »

Richard
Richard
6 years ago

Blusterybill – I suggest you take every opportunity god gives you – being careful of pregnancy and psycho women… get a burner phone, don’t give your full name or address…. don’t give company business cards…. AND – NEVER TELL HER – most importantly learn to eat any guilt that comes up, and instead thrive from the wonderful feeling of being wanted by more than one woman…. if you experience any paranoia that she might be cheating learn to live with the reality that she might and understand it’s most likely just you catching your reflection in her innocence…. It doesn’t… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

Re Kate & Rollo’s conversation… It is interesting to me, that we as a society generally tend to socially acknowledge that it is the women who choose during the dating/courting process… but when it comes to cheating, the men and women are now somehow equally culpable. It doesn’t make sense to me. Men are biologically wired to go for just about anything that will offer itself to them and not hassle them in their lives too much, and it is men who suffer from the mental delusion of self-sacrificial eros. But when it comes to cheating in a relationship, it’s… Read more »

Richard
Richard
6 years ago

Jeremy – yes exactly….. you nailed it…. in this age of liberation and equality men just need to demand that women start acting like adults, instead of bringing the 13 year old high school girl into the marital home and bedroom…. all this alpha bucks and beta and date night… it’s all BS… it’s just more (beta) pandering to try to manipulate the woman with what they think she wants…. what’s the difference between a white night anxiously driving across town to help some poor female he hopes one day might become his girl friend… and the married guy putting… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Re: the wife experience. So how come she isn’t paying me?

redpillsetmefree
6 years ago

Re: the wife experience. So how come she isn’t paying me?
EXACTLY THIS.
Thank you. This is what I’ve been trying to say. Men have been beaten back on their heels so much they can’t even see the inequity.

D-Man
D-Man
6 years ago

beginning to think that “personal integrity” in a man, in the eyes of many modern women, roughly translates to “easy mark”…

…that the reason for attraction to dark triads is a simple case of “birds of a feather”…

… and if the real source of pleasure is the anticipation… and if the reverse holds true… then the road to hell is worse than being there… so don’t fret boys, it’ll get better soon

Acksiom
Acksiom
6 years ago

>Men have been beaten back on their heels so much they can’t even see the inequity.

Gotta love how you HAVE to keep agreeing with me because reality.

Acksiom
Acksiom
6 years ago

And TPM just linked to this: http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showthread.php?7899-Fear-of-Rejection-No-Fear-of-Punishment . The evidence just keeps piling right on up. Absolutely true, I’ve known it for years, and that’s why my model addresses the factors it does. It’s not that it’s all about the money. It’s that it’s all about identifying what means are best to change things fastest. Men’s liberation, being human liberation, is likewise partially the result of economic and technological advance. And that’s what we’re best suited to change; not people’s heads. Feminism succeeded because it could; its diet was the low-hanging fruit resulting from industrialization etc. Men’s liberation needs more… Read more »

Jacquie
Jacquie
6 years ago

Rollo, Does Mrs. Tomassi view your relationship the same way, as an anomaly? Does she deal with backlash for it? And if so, how does she? Do you help her in this area? In this I mean that the herd can be nasty, is nasty. It seems at times that being happy in your relationship is a threat to those around you. I’ve had to deal with the comments and looks, and ignore the pressure to be pulled in with the herd; mostly because my husband lets me know he is pleased and satisfied with my behavior expecting and inspiring… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Since we all know (great way to start a convincing comment) that women actually get attention, romance, foreplay, bacon, childcare etc from betas and NOT from alphas, the question to be asked is: Why aren’t betas demanding compensation for giving The Husband Experience to their wives? And why aren’t more women more ashamed of themselves?

Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
6 years ago

@jf12

“Since we all know (great way to start a convincing comment) that women actually get attention, romance, foreplay, bacon, childcare etc from betas and NOT from alphas, the question to be asked is: Why aren’t betas demanding compensation for giving The Husband Experience to their wives? And why aren’t more women more ashamed of themselves?”

In Betadom, she is Special Princess. He owes her and it’s never the other way around.

Here’s a comparative analysis on the costs and benefits of buying vs leasing.

http://thatsfunnyshit.blogspot.com/2011/07/purchasing-or-leasing-which-is-better.html

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Jacquie

Tremendous changes have taken place over the past few years, the kind of changes that have distanced or lost friends and relationships. We have to watch what we say. Wondering if we’d had the current structure in our relationship all along that being different wouldn’t be as obvious

It’s hilarious, isn’t it? Modern society freely tolerates explicit BD/SM relationships, but the standard straight male-dominated female-submissive marital relationship from tales of old is frowned upon as if it were a living Nazi party leader.

Up is down. Black is white.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Jf12- “Why aren’t betas demanding compensation for giving The Husband Experience to their wives?”

60 years of relentless conditioning.

BlackPoisonSoul
6 years ago

GeishaKate still trolling here? Still looking to confirm your choice of MM is the right one, checking to see if there might be a better Alpha for you? Honestly, what kind of person do you take me for? Of course I’d have the same opinion. Smell the defensiveness. I barely read your post, Rollo. Something about a sandwich. But if you keep that projector running, you can toast your own at home! Smell the deflection and irrelevancies. I think Rollo is right, this blogpost has struck a deep-seated insecurity in her. I think that it goes much deeper though. Vastly… Read more »

Rol
Rol
6 years ago

At least she took down that disburbing avatar pic. It was like looking at a female version of Charles Manson. Women don’t even know how to be feminine anymore.

Great topic and insightful commentary.

Stingray
6 years ago

Jacquie from Barefoot in the Clearing? I miss you. 😉

My husband gave me a lot of support in that area when I needed it (I find I don’t much any more, but he’s still there if I need him). He has become my herd.

I’m very introverted though so I think that helps a ton. As to online, yes. The support there is tremendous. You should come join us at the Red Pill Women subreddit.

Stingray
6 years ago

This must be the deepest fear for a woman, that she makes the ultimate mistake in her choice of partner. Might this be a reason why women embrace the tenets of socialism/feminism? Yes. We are no longer taught that it is very much a wife’s job to help her husband stay alpha and grow in his masculinity. There is a paradox there as well. If we do help him, he becomes more attractive to us and very often a better provider at the same time. But the fear is that if our encouragement makes him too attractive, he will leave… Read more »

eris
eris
6 years ago

Stardusk’s video about the idea that women consciously or subconsciously view their sexuality as a commodity that they will instinctively act to inflate its value is quite eye-opening and completely right.

I remember an experiment done where a primitive monetary system was introduced to a group of monkeys. They took to it surprisingly well and one of the very first transactions that took place was the female monkeys exchanging money for sex.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Re: “But the fear is that if our encouragement makes him too attractive, he will leave us for a younger and more beautiful woman.” The typical American woman solution is to make sure her husband feels utterly contemptible, apparently.

jack
jack
6 years ago

Rollo-

When she said “I’m very picky”, couldn’t you have looked sideways at her boyfriend and said ” I can see that.”

BF destroyer…

jack
jack
6 years ago

Or…

“Obviously”

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

“maybe, eventually, a man cannot help but be perceived as a Beta by his wife because he is her husband, a parent and provider (or should be).” Yes. This is a major or the major theme of many if not most of your recent posts. And there is NOTHING the man can do to improve his situation short of pulling away to be less of a husband, less of a parent, less of a provider, less of a lover, less bacon, less roses etc. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. So why aren’t more appreciative of the beta males… Read more »

Eris
Eris
6 years ago

“Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.” When women encounter a male of (for her) unfamiliar alpha-ness, just like a guys reaction to a nine walking past while surrounded by a group of fives, her interest will be piqued and the drive to draw him in will be activated, whether or not she actual does it, which largely depends on the social environment. Nevertheless, it might not be as doom-and-gloom as all that. Novelty may be a factor for women… Read more »

Eris
Eris
6 years ago

To clarify, I mean “you” as in the general sense of the word.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Kate solipsised:
I have no interest in reading those women.

How ironic…

deti
deti
6 years ago

@ Kate: By way of background, Rollo often talks of his sister in law who married her first husband after she got pregnant. Brother in law does the right thing, marries her, breaks his ass for her. She divorces him after nearly 20 years of marriage; Bro in law commits suicide. Before his body is cold sis in law marries millionaire. You said this with regard to that situation: “The part you completely leave out of the story is that they must have had some sort of involvement before she divorced your brother-in-law. That means that, while she is, of… Read more »

deti
deti
6 years ago

whoops. I see this has been dealt with way upthread. Will read more carefully next time.

BlackPoisonSoul
6 years ago

@Stingray – this is gonna be long-winded and probably will hair off into nowhere relevant, yet here goes: I had a discussion with some F-type women once, where I stated that it seemed they (Feelers) did not trust their emotions. (This was regarding xxFx in the MBTI/Cognitive Fuctions context.) It seemed that they sought safety/reassurance from others that their feelings were in fact the correct way to go – an expression of group-/herd-think. They said that I was 100% correct and one of them said words to the effect that she absolutely hated being apparently flighty and at the mercy… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

“To be left on the scrap-heap of humanity. Growing old, alone, unloved, with cats. The go-to trope of the bitter and twisted men of the Manosphere”
I say, I say boy, I resemble that remaaahrk!
And even though I have a heart as black and shrivelled as last year’s potatoes, am as old as Beetlejuice, and couldn’t lie straight in bed, I disapprove.
It’s cruel to the poor innocent cats.
Won’t somebody think of the cats, in all this?

Water Cannon Boy
Water Cannon Boy
6 years ago

To BlackPoison,
Good explanation there.
I had asked before, or actually just thought out loud so to speak, what it would be like when the women of today who either don’t get or don’t head for whatever reason, the advice of the parents/grandparents, when they become that age themselves.
Those brooms went crazy the last time the apprentice tried on that hat.

Tin Man
6 years ago

I have pondered this one for about 3 years (marked by my now exwife moving out with the kids) — basically, “How did I end up here?” and as I have educated myself, and pondered the question – I come back to this… It is inevitable and unavoidable for most Men. No amount of Frame control or alpha-ness will keep it from happening. How you handle it, how you potentially turn it around, how you navigate it — that is really the question, and the answer. To me, you will be the Great Beta Husband at some point during your… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
6 years ago

@TtB – I also resemble that remark. I decided to put it out because some cat-infested troll would otherwise meow it from her kitty-litter. I have a posting in the works about how we earned those bitter scars. You are right about the poor cats though: we must invent special foods for cat-owners, so that when their cats feast upon their decaying bodies the cats will have a meal fit for a king. In the interim, invest in pet food companies. Soylent Green would be a good brand-name. There is a reason for my monicker. @WCB – good that the… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Re: “couldn’t lie straight in bed” in my case it IS because of the cats. One has self-designated as my crotch-sniffer, and acommodating her requires at least one bent leg. If I roll over too vigorously, she will become smothered without offering resistance. In fact as the carbon dioxide builds up and her breathing becomes shallower she’ll start to purr/vibrate loudly, which may or may not wake me but will wake my wife. The other, her sister, believes her night job is to hold my legs down by lying across both my ankles and she can stretch arbitrarily to fit.… Read more »

SirNemesis
6 years ago

@ deti

Let’s assume it’s true that SIL was cheating on her first husband with Moneybags (a fact not in evidence).
If we assume that, what you’re essentially saying is that Moneybags is MORE culpable for SIL’s divorce than SIL is. You’re saying that SIL has less moral agency.
Nope. Don’t buy it.

Ironically, this is the opposite of Aunt Giggle’s rationalization of her facilitating infidelity.

deti
deti
6 years ago

Nemesis: Ah. You’re referring to Susan at HUS referring to her having sex with an engaged man; then explaining that she had no moral culpability for that act because she wasn’t the one in a committed relationship. If anyone was culpable, it was the man who slept with her while engaged to someone else. Yet in the situation with Rollo’s SIL, according to Kate, SIL has lowered culpability because Moneybags was just too difficult to resist. There you have it. When ethical lapses or questionable ethics are concerned, woman is excused every time. Man is blamed every time. The funny… Read more »

Stingray
6 years ago

Black Poisoned Soul, It was quite relevant and well said. Women want their Alpha, fully-fledged and bred from the bone, right now. What I find hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time, is that this alpha has to be exact. He has to be simultaneously sensitive and masculine. The strong silent type who will have deep meaningful conversations, often. Make lots of money and have all the time in the world to spend time with and cater to her. He must be masculine when she wants it and feminine at the exact same time. And women honestly cannot see… Read more »

Stingray
6 years ago

Black Poisoned Soul,

Interesting side tidbit, when I met my husband I was INFP. He is an ISTJ (I don’t know what he was when we met, but definitely the strong solent type and he hasn’t changed all that much). 😉

What’s more? I retook the test a few months ago and I am now an ISTJ as well. Make of that what you will. 😉

trance
trance
6 years ago

Avoiding anti-game is just as important as game itself.

Jeremy
6 years ago

Honestly, Stingray, I’ve never met a woman who actually wanted…”deep meaningful conversations, often.” I think this is another lie that women tell themselves. What women seem to want, conversationally, is an authority figure. They want someone who can talk for hours about things they have no understanding of. They want to be intellectually dazzled more than participate in a “deep meaningful conversation.” The classic story of a girl who falls in love with her professor is so common that in a way I’m shocked that Game did not originate in the halls of academia. I personally knew of at least… Read more »

YOHAMI
6 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy

Jeremy, Stingray

”deep meaningful conversations” for a woman, means “emotional stuff about how I feel and what I want”, “reaffirmation and validation of my viewpoints” and of course “entertain me with stories that show me your character and make me feel good about myself for being with you”

So of course they want that often.

BlackPoisonSoul
6 years ago

Stingray – I also am an ISTJ. A chatty and semi-social ISTJ. Might be an interesting datum for you.

I have read to the effect that women change to mould themselves to their partner. (Airy-fairy theories, I do not know for certain one way or another.) Might that be a part of why you changed?

PS I am tending to think these days that MBTI/Jungian Cognitive Functions are more along the lines of coping mechanisms rather than anything hard’n’fast. More airy-fairy theories of my own.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Yohami, deep doesn’t mean just telling her how you feel about her feelings, it means also helping her to uncover her inner goodness in the way that she agonized for almost a few moments when she betrayed one friend at the expense of another. In other words, you hold your metaphorical conch of an echo chamber to her metaphorical ear and its solipsistic otoacoustic emissions, and she can hear what she wants to hear, deeply.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Jf12,

I read somewhere that a woman’s favorite converstional subject is whatever she is feeling the moment she is feeling it. Or her current feelings about past feelings. Or your feelings as viewed in the context of her feelings.

Stingray
6 years ago

I’ve never met a woman who actually wanted…”deep meaningful conversations, often.” I think this is another lie that women tell themselves. Well, yes and no. It’s not so much a lie as it is that men and women have different meanings for what this means. It’s what both you and Yohami said and a great deal of combining the two as well. The right man could take the most complex engineering, and if he does it right, a woman will *feel* intensely all through it. If he just explains it, she will get bored and it’s will be done. But… Read more »

Stingray
6 years ago

A chatty and semi-social ISTJ This is me as well, though I tend to come across as a bit awkward or weird when I am meeting most people for the first time because I am not very good with small talk. Might that be a part of why you changed? Oh yes. Definitely. I was ignorant and lead by my feelings (if it felt right it was right. That conversation with my husband is a memorable one). I was also quite wordily stupid. So, I did change and I have not doubt I changed a great deal, especially at first,… Read more »

Stingray
6 years ago

jf12 and Badpainter,

Those are hysterical and also generally true.

If you can guide a woman’s feelings, then chances are, she is yours.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Stringray, ESTJ here. I’m not sure what you mean by “(most dominant men aren’t interested in taking the time to do this).” They aren’t interested in taking the time to find a woman who chooses to submit?

I think essentially every woman’s failure to submit comes from the same place as essentially every woman’s failure to diet, and it has nothing to do with what her husband does or doesn’t do.

Stingray
6 years ago

No. I mean that most men aren’t will to spend the time dominating an ardent feminist (or even not so ardent). It’s just not worth it to them.

Stingray
6 years ago

I hit submit too soon. I meant to add that, no, most often it highly depends on what the husband does (Unless she is highly religious and has been taught that she is called to submit no matter what her husband does). Submitting to a man who is non-dominant, the effort required to do this is huge and the longer she must submit the more difficult it becomes. If the man will not lead, there is a vacuum and she will naturally fill it whether she wants to or not. Only women resent having to lead and they will disrespect… Read more »

Josey Wales
Josey Wales
6 years ago

@Stingray “Most women are not that well read because they simply aren’t interested in most of the same things as men. Can women learn this stuff if they wanted? Sure. Can and willing are not the same thing and women tend to get those highly mixed up. They see one woman able and willing and then conflate that to all women. If most woman would just own up to it, I don’t think most men would be that terribly bothered by it.” This is interesting and timely… Just last night, wife was on the computer bouncing around to celebrity gossip… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Stingray, no man I can imagine would mind bothering to dominate if she would actually respond correctly. The concept driving men’s behavior is expected return on investment: if a man has never been given reason by a woman for him to think she will submit, then she is not worth the effort. In contrast, a woman who is nice and easy to submit is well worth the effort.

deti
deti
6 years ago

Re: “deep, meaningful conversations”

And the last thing a woman wants in a “deep, meaningful conversation is for the guy to talk about things important to HIM or, even worse, about HIS feelings. HIS feelings, wants, needs, and desires are the LAST things she wants to talk about because that’s so….beta.

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ Josey Wales – For the longest time I maintained the illusion that women were as interested in the larger world and the world of ideas as men are. Time after time I found myself stymied trying to have conversations with lovers, sisters, my daughter about topics that I found interesting – which men would jump right in on – only to see their eyes roll, or even worse, the blank stare that indicated they had no idea what I am talking about. It’s gets worse as you get older as knowledge accumulates and connects with and complements other knowledge.… Read more »

SGT Ted
6 years ago

” When I got in line he was hugging up on her from behind, leaning in and she stood there like a tree. His posture and body language, as well as his attitude instantly told me this couple’s relational dynamic – he was the qualifying Beta and she was the mouthy, hard-to-please Hyena. She noticed me when I came up. I was the only other person in Subway and I still had my gym clothes on. Some top 40 crap song came on the overhead and she blathered out, “I hate this shit music. They should put Metallica or Slayer… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Stingray – “Woman are not good at and hate what men mean by a deep meaningful conversation. The argument and debate, presenting and then criticizing ideas, and the ad hominems (that so often you all can then get up from the table and it is ALL over). That is not our idea of deep conversation at all. Then the feelings are NOT good and most women hate it.” This is an astute observation. I have a close friend who I argue with in the most dramatic ways. His wife (now ex) once lamented that she felt like she would never… Read more »

Stingray
6 years ago

Josey Wales,

I agree completely and given men’s propensity for the wordily and women’s for the hearth, it makes perfect sense that our roles for thousands of years reflected that. What people can’t seem to fathom is that just because women can now share those wordily aspirations is that we still don’t want to. It’s like that’s our natural role or something. 😀

Stingray
6 years ago

jf12,

I agree with you. Women today don’t know how to submit. We have never been taught. Rather, we are taught just the opposite; to put up a fight the whole way.

Stingray
6 years ago

Rollo,

Thank you, but I can’t take credit. It’s been said in more than a few comments sections but I couldn’t tell you where, when, or who has said it.

Stingray
6 years ago

And we made her feel stupid.

Yep, because when women do argue like what you described, the object is to make the other feel stupid. We tend to think men are doing the same thing when in reality, it seems men do this as a challenge.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

Stingray – “because when women do argue like what you described, the object is to make the other feel stupid.”

And my experience is men are demonstrating their cleverness to each other without intending malice.

Thank you, your observations are very useful. I look forward to applying them in the field. I’ll try to use them for good and not evil.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

LOL @ “I’ll try to use them for good and not for evil.”

BlackPoisonSoul
6 years ago

An actual lively and thoughtful discussion where we can thrash out concepts without having to beat some feminist drone around the head with a two-by-four. Nice. With reference to women arguing to make others feel stupid: I eventually stopped playing chess with my ex-wife because she hated losing. It made her feel stupid. In fact I basically stopped playing chess at all. With reference to trying to use things for good not evil – LOL. Just use the damn tools. Unless you’re hooking someone on drugs or killing them for kicks it can hardly be considered evil – amoral at… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Re: “women arguing to make others feel stupid”. This is my experience also. Women (not men) tend to argue with me all the time about things about which I’m obviously correct, even the littlest things, as if the fact of their taking a different position puts them on the same level as me (if not higher).

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

“Women (not men) tend to argue with me all the time about things about which I’m obviously correct, even the littlest things, “ Long ago I realized that this seemingly compulsive behavior could be turned to fun and profit. After say two iterations, I slyly curl one of Her Majesty’s Fine Olde Englishe banknotes out and declare “but Betty here says I’m right”. Strangely, I am rarely if ever required to go to the tiresome effort of demonstrating why. Wouldn’t work on a guy, I’d have to spend a week compiling references and materials. I prefer to do it for… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

“but Betty here says I’m right” am I understanding you to say that women back down from wagering? That too is my experience. So whence the profit?

Stingray
6 years ago

Badpainter,

Remember, with great power . . . . 😉

I all seriousness, thank you. I appreciate that and I’m glad to hear that I could be of some help.

Eris
Eris
6 years ago

“And the last thing a woman wants in a “deep, meaningful conversation is for the guy to talk about things important to HIM or, even worse, about HIS feelings.” It’s always surprising how common it is to hear women telling men that they need to get with the 21st century and learn to express their feelings, when it is in fact women’s preference for stoic men that has made and continues to make men this way in the first place. The minute she perceives him pleading for her emotional support it will set her alarm bells ringing; any support she… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
6 years ago

In the cocktails, I’m afraid. The banknote ploy is usually an act of despair before I lose my mind and start stabbing them in their obtuse ears with ballpoint pens, and can only be pulled off in front of (preferably many) witnesses. It’s what I do if they start bitching me up about some aspect of my work which they think I am ignorant of “because they’ve seen such-and-such on the telly/magazine/bloodyTwitter saying whatever”. Done it for decades, and does help in that women who’ve known me for a long time think twice before launching the needling shark attacks. The… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ Tam the Bam -The nature of knowledge and intelligence is that it’s cumulative and interdependent. If one actually makes a regular practice of accumulating knowledge in a given field, there seems to me to be a compounding effect in terms of one’s knowledge that accelerates one’s understanding versus a person who casually engages with this information. My observation of women’s engagement with knowledge is that they are very results driven and will find info to solve a problem – in the way that one might look up a recipe. Men, are the other hand, are generally more broadly curious.… Read more »

Kate
Kate
6 years ago

Everyone is playing their roles admirably! *polite applause*

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Stingray …The right man could take the most complex engineering, and if he does it right, a woman will *feel* intensely all through it. If he just explains it, she will get bored and it’s will be done. But add in eye contact, strong body language, and even better if he related the conversation somehow back to her. Basically, it just means, if it makes her feel strongly (about him, about life, good about herself, etc) it’s a deep meaningful conversation. No, that’s a tailored lecture (if not raw game), not a conversation. A conversation goes back and forth by… Read more »

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