Forge the Sky:
The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.
But women have different relationships with them. To women, betas are friends, helpers, co-workers, employees, servants; unless related by blood, they are practical beings only. There is no romance to them. They are useful, fun, maybe even someone to be a little affectionate toward so long as they remain useful, but they have no deeper self, no soul, no mystical thing to bind to.
Alphas are something else entirely. They are actually people – people drenched with desire, romance, spirit. Him, she can respect. In greater cases even worship. It matters little how well he performs objectively, so long as he does nothing to make her doubt her assessment of him as alpha. If he does perform, she admires and praises his performance – but she’s doing that about something or another regardless, even if she’s gushing about how he bought her a bag of skittles.
No woman will stand beside a beta as he faces, and succumbs to, death. Not unless it’s convenient, or she would be shamed otherwise. It simply would not make sense for her to do so. Would you hold your employee’s hand as they lay dying? Only if they had a fatal accident right in front of you. Past that, condolences to the kids.
Men see two genders. Men and women. Better and worse, more and less attractive, but no fundamental difference. Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women. And so we try to improve our beta game, instead of flipping the script.
The blue pill is miserable because it is learned helplessness. From within, it is the cracking of an invisible whip, punishment meted capriciously and without time or reason. There is no pattern or method to the blue pill man’s pain.
FTS must’ve been reading my mind this week because his comment made a perfect segue into what I’ve been developing this week. The most salient part of this comment, I thought, was “Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women.”
This was a good observation because there are intrinsic parts of the male psychological firmware that the Feminine Imperative picked up on long ago and deliberately co-opts to better aid in optimizing women’s control of Hypergamy.
From the utility-need side of Hypergamy, this mostly manifests in various forms of serviceable security. The Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy can be distilled to a need for security, protection, and a certainty that a woman and her offspring will be insured against any uncertainty. Every psychological and sociological dynamic that contributes to feminine-primacy keys on this need for existential certainty. The War Brides dynamic, the evolution from old-order chivalry to modern feminism, and now the social / legal handicapping of men to ensure that feminine-security certainty above all other considerations are all manifestations of this need.
The Feminine Imperative learned long ago that men’s innate protectorate instinct for the feminine was its second most valuable means of masculine control – the first being men’s ‘always on’ sexual impetus. Thus pairing the two as a means of control is a simple deductive proposition for the imperative. The rudimentary connection being, “protect the woman and I get sex.”
This is the unspoken exchange that’s part of our evolutionary past. Men are nothing if not deductive (yet creative) problem solvers, and women have used this to their hypergamous advantage since our hunter-gatherer beginnings.
This is what confounds modern men under the auspices of our present feminine-primary social order. We’re emphatically told that women “never owe men sex“, yet the latent message is, and has always been, “but, if you perform to her satisfaction, she might be more inclined to give you sex.” Carrot to pull the cart, I know, but this mental algorithm is a sociological buffer for women – exclude the sexually unworthy, but leave an acceptable caveat in order to leverage the possibility of sex with those who are still useful in providing security.
Bear this in mind the next time you read a story about a savior White Knight who was beaten to a bloody pulp for his effort to protect a woman from the “predations” of some Alpha(s) she likely wants to bang anyway. Men will project, by default, our own gender interpretation onto women, and sometimes pay the price for it. Betas believe the feminine-primary, equalist advertising that men and women are functional equals while still force fitting an expected, old-order, male-protectionism (completely based on an unequal state presumption) into that belief – often at their own expense.
While I disagree that there are no distinct physical and cultural markers that women use (sometimes subconsciously) to distinguish Alpha men from the bulk of Beta men, I strongly agree with the distinction and characterization Forge the Sky makes with how women regard Beta men.
The vast majority of men are sexually invisible to women, but all males are visible in terms of their utility to women and the role those men are expected to play in deference to women’s solipsism.
There’s an important difference in that visibility with respect to men and women we need to consider.
I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. That may be the case, particularly for mature women convinced they should be sexually viable into their 50s, however, those women’s functional utility is never an issue for men. Neither is it an article of attraction for a man. As much as a feminine-centric culture would like to convince women of the opposite, men simply don’t factor a woman’s provisional utility into their attraction equation.
Invisible men never become visible to women until either those men intrude on a woman’s’ awareness or she has a specific utilitarian need of him. At this point, whether due to arousal / attraction awareness or her specific need (usually protection or security insurance), that man must perform to prove his maleness. He must qualify for her visual acknowledgment of him.
Over prolonged periods, this invisibility, and the fear of having his insistence rejected, can influence men’s overall perception of women and their intergender interpretations. Invisible men tend to confuse a woman’s utility interests in him as genuine indicators of interest (IOIs). The Feminine Imperative prepares for this ‘mixed message’ with a constant, self-perpetuating social narrative that tells the invisible men they are never, under any circumstance, owed a woman’s intimacy – it is always a gift, a reward, for her approval.
Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman.
Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.
If we consider the 80 / 20 rule of the sexual marketplace and figure that 80% of Beta men are sexually invisible to women we get a broader perspective of how the gender landscape has evolved in an era where women’s security-side needs are planned for and met with a relative degree of certainty.
I had a teenage kid I used to consult who related this story about how one of his nerdy friends had somehow spontaneously generated the interest of a girl who was an obvious two points above his SMV. His initial frustration was one of wonderment about how this guy could be ‘dating’ so hot a girl while he wasn’t bumping the needle with even the girls he thought were a point below himself.
His nerdy friend assumed the predictable self-righteous Beta position that some “special” girls just understand and appreciate guys like him in favor of the brutish jocks “society tells them they should like.” All this came two weeks before that year’s homecoming dance (and after-party), where she promptly left him to go dance and party with her girlfriends and their jock guy-friends for the rest of the evening.
This kid had served his utilitarian purpose of fronting the money for the evening, a limo, corsage, photos (of their group) and the bit of risky underage liquor he could manage. In spite of all that he still refused to make the connection of his being used for her purpose. Invisibles feel validated in their own manipulation because that utility made them visible (“do my homework nerd”) even if just momentarily. As bad as that extortion was, that brief moment of visibility implies the prospect that another woman in the future (a really special one) will also appreciate his utility and reward it with her intimacy.
Needless to say, this visibility differential becomes an internalized factor in men’s approach to women. There are ways an invisible man can make himself visible; all require effort and risk. As I stated before, a man remains invisible unless his physical presence and arousal prompts make him unignorable, his performance is outstanding enough to draw attention or he simply asserts his visibility towards that woman. Physical bearing and performance recognition being the Alpha Fucks side of the Hypergamy equation is an easy follow, but a man asserting himself and his personality is where the Red Pill and applied Game come into play. This prospect will always imply risk of rejection until such a time that an Invisible’s confidence supersedes his self-image as an invisible.
We had a long discussion in the last thread about the mindset of the MGTOW contingent of the manosphere and the sentiment of men wishing to remove themselves wholesale from the sexual marketplace. I understand this sentiment and I know men, like Advocatus Diaboli, who have legitimately recused themselves from the SMP, but it seems to me this want is the result of having been invisible to women for so long. They get to a point where they become invisible by choice.
The Third Sex
I can’t finish this essay without drawing attention to FTS’s first observation:
The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.
After I’d reconsidered this I had to dig out my copy of Plato’s Symposium and pore through it to read the part where Aristophanes proposed that there were, in fact, three sexes (in primal times) that their all-male discussion collective ought to consider:
There were three sexes: the all male, the all female, and the “androgynous,” who was half male, half female. The males were said to have descended from the sun, the females from the earth and the androgynous couples from the moon.
A lot is being made of transgenderism recently and the fluidity with which people want to arbitrarily “gender-identify” borders on the ridiculous, but FTS’s observation has more implications than I think most are aware of. I’m sorry to go all philosophus on you, but I can definitely see parallels with the symbolism Aristophanes suggests and the female perceptions of the division of maleness FTS brings out here. Although Aristophanes would say that these primal beings split into gays, lesbians and heterosexual beings, I’d suggest that this primal awareness stems from a male understanding of the division of Alpha and Beta men and how women perceive them, visibly and non-visibly.
I covered this a while back in Queens, Workers & Drones:
So powerful is this sense of entitlement, so consuming and convinced of the correctness of their purpose is the feminine that women will literally breed and raise generations of men to better satisfy it. Hypergamy is cruel, but nowhere more so than in the relationship between a mother overtly raising and conditioning a son to be a better servant of the feminine imperative.
But to breed a better worker, the feminine imperative’s queens can’t afford to have any corrupting, masculine, outside influence. On a societal scale this might mean removal (either by disincentives or forcibly) of a father from the family unit, but this is the easy, extreme illustration. There are far more subtle social and psychological means that the imperative uses to effect this filtering – via mass media, social doctrines, appeals to (feminized) morality, the feminine is placed as the correct imperative while the masculine is filtered out or apologetically tolerated as vestiges of an immature and crude reminder of masculinity’s incorrectness.
Yet for all of this social engineering Hypergamy still demands satisfaction of women’s most base imperative, Alpha seed. The queens need physically / psychologically dominant drones – if just for a season and at their ovulatory pleasure. While beta workers are endlessly vetted in sisyphean tasks of qualifying for the acceptance of the feminine imperative, the Alpha drones live outside this shell; their qualifications only based on how well they satisfy the feminine’s visceral side of hypergamy.
The great irony of this social solution to hypergamy and long term parental investment is that the vast majority of the offspring of this arrangement would be raised to be better workers. Those betas-to-be boys must be insulated from the corrupting influence of the drones lest they devolve into the Alphas they crave yet cannot control. It may seem counterintuitive, to raise what should ostensibly be optimized genetic stock as a cowed, sometimes medically restrained, feminized beta males. However it is through this harsh conditioning that truly dominant Alphas must rise above. Essentially the genetic lottery isn’t won by women in such a social environment – it’s men, or the ones who rise above in spite of the conditioning efforts of the feminine imperative.
[…] The Invisibles […]
Absolutely. Years ago, I did not believed there is anything like ‘beta’ and ‘alpha’ after all, but living with my friend who was a complete submissive to her apparently normal (not very dominant) wife was a valuable lesson for me – you might be able to work on being alpha, but you need to know what this means and also willing to participate in your own rescue. Alphas aren’t superhumans to me- they are just men who know what they want, they go after it and women are just an addition to their life and not the main meal. I’d… Read more »
If Alpha seed (essentially the genes) is what a woman is looking for, then how can Alpha be viewed as you view it? Basically as a mindset instead of a demographic. It would seem the search for genes is what makes it a demographic, but the ability to learn the behaviors makes it a mindset. This confuses a lot of guys, I’m sure. Myself to some degree as well.
Have you touched on clarifying this apparent contradiction before where I could read up on it, or could you do so if you haven’t already?
Ummm Rollo. Do really think men see 2 genders – men and women? Or do they also see 3 – men, young bang-able women, old and un-bang-able women?
It is a cliche for women over 50 to lament being seen as invisible. Men basically look right through them if they are not kin.
A number of men out there who are fully RP aware–but have made the decision (for whatever reasons) not to do the hard work of becoming “visible”–head straight to the MGTOW camp. Often, we in the manosphere who’ve labored tirelessly to flip the script on modern day open hypergamy and can now unapologetically and skillfully enjoy the company of women on our own terms rank them as among the “incels” (involuntary celibates). They are undeniably an angry, bitter faction–whatever their personal reasons to remain invisible. None of them that I’ve witnessed comes across as placid or monk-like in their choice.… Read more »
Pretty young women are not invisible. Handsome men are not invisible. Men can stay handsome longer than women can stay young and pretty. Every pretty young woman becomes invisible eventually, after they hit The Wall (starting in the late 20’s typically). Ugly women are always invisible to men. Ugly men are invisible to women, unless they have other things going for them, like status, wealth, talent, etc., that they find attractive. Then pretty young women will be attracted to them, and then these men are not invisible to women. There are more invisible young men, then there are invisible young… Read more »
No. They’re all women, just some of them fall below a man’s acceptable SMV threshold. Being fat, ugly, or old are all ways to lower SMV. They’re still women to a man in all cases.
@Sun Wukong- I think you are as in the dark about this as women are about men who are not on their “radar.”
I too think there are clear Alpha signs, from clothing to our chin size(test causes increased jaw size). I remember reading about a study in the military where they did nothing but rank graduates photos on their chin size–and those men ended up generally being the highest ranking officers. This would also be why men grow beards to fake that alpha quality.. Alcohol is a way of faking alpha too(how many men hit on a woman while drunk they would never hit on sober?)
I would side with Sun on that issue. Can you explain your thinking?
@The Diplomat, No many of us men choose MGTOW after spinning plates. We don’t ignore women it’s just that after awhile the effort it takes to deal with them is just no longer worth the reward. Though women are still an option, for me, I am fully prepared and happy to live without them and rather am simply making plans to try to find a better one. Unfortunately most women are extremely low value and never bother to develop their character so it’s quite difficult to find a decent one. The low value ones, which are most of them, will… Read more »
@myrealitie I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. That may be the case, particularly for mature women convinced they should be sexually viable into their 50s, however, those women’s functional utility is never an issue for men. Neither is it an article of attraction for a man. As much as a feminine-centric culture would like to convince women of the opposite, men simply don’t factor a woman’s provisional utility into their attraction equation. Invisible men never become… Read more »
@myrealitie, Fat women can stop being fat and then they will be able to participate in the SMP. I have several fat women that I encounter routinely who have tried to date me and I have made it clear that I would consider this if they demonstrate that they can stop being fat. As far as old women should get married when they matter and cultivate philia and pragma forms of love with intermittent eros with one man. Instead women chase eros every moment they can, never bothering to think about the future for themselves or for their children. And… Read more »
Here’s a picture of some jaw enhancement surgeries from a quick google search:
Do you think if you had sex with a woman and after you told her that you have a fake jaw that she can claim rape?
touche; I didn’t read the entire post. But I continue to disagree that modern men do not care about a woman’s status and earning potential. My sample is NYC upper-middle class to upper class men; they care VERY MUCH that the women they date be both hot and accomplished. People care about status. And they like other people who help them achieve higher status. This is gender neutral. It is currently considered high status for a man to have a wife who is hot and accomplished. I agree that it is not so much the provisioning piece as it is… Read more »
Yes @ myrealitie
Thats also what i was thinking!!
We men just “see” young attractive women….we dont “see” the older women
@StringsofCoins “Unfortunately most women are extremely low value and never bother to develop their character so it’s quite difficult to find a decent one. The low value ones, which are most of them, will bring many forms of ruin to your life if you don’t guard against it.” I can’t post a counter argument until I know what you are characterizing as “low value.” And why would you even let them in the door if they don’t measure up to your most basic parameters? Maybe you haven’t developed the proper internal screening mechanisms? Maybe there is still too much Blue… Read more »
I think this notion of the “invisible man” (or rather invisible until desperately needed) is extremely important for the modern man to understand. When men look past their romanticized expectations of inter-gender relations, I think it actually becomes quite obvious and easy for the beta man to see that it is his resources and commitment potential that makes him desirable, not his individual masculine appeal. I further think it is critical that these “safe” men wake up because they are actually part of the modern day problem. By cooperating with female hypergamy they essentially reward and justify modern female behavior… Read more »
I think you are as in the dark about this as women are about men who are not on their “radar.”
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
This is an extremely common thing for women to say. They view betas not as men but not as women either. They are a third sex: beta.
Men always view women as women. We place them on our HB scale. If they’re too low on it, we don’t want to fuck them. We still view and treat them as women, just women we don’t want to fuck.
Another extremely high quality and on point article. Thanks for all the work you do to publish this blog.
@Bo Jangles: The question is not why men grow beards. The question is why they eradicate them.
To add more nuance to why the female commenter is wrong and the others are right (men see even elderly and fat women): most men are beta. I’m one of them, I have to admit. Every day betas like me will notice old, fat, or ugly (or some combination of all three) entering office buildings and getting into elevators. Most betas, either out of true beta niceness or even because they are doing a self-improvement program that requires them to talk to every woman they see, will go out of their way to hold the door, hold the elevator, smile… Read more »
Even in my bluest of Blue Pill days internally I didn’t care about a woman’s provisioning ability. I always assumed that was my job, particularly if children came in to the picture. The only thing her education told me was that she was potentially smart, which would be important if we ever decided to have children. Men (even Blue Pill men) have interest in women for sex pretty much exclusively off cues that indicate genetic fitness for children. Where the plugged in BP veers away from RP men is in letting feminine shaming for that tendency dictate his standards for… Read more »
@Sun The same could be said by me of many fat, old or ugly women. I don’t see her ‘like that’. She might as well have a dick.. Sure, I’ll still open the door for her, talk to her politely, not punch her in the arm, etc.. But I sure don’t see her like the chick who has a chance with me.. The chick in your ref post probably treats the asian dude like a male in many ways as well, even though she’s not sexually attracted to him. Besides, beware how much weight you put on what she told… Read more »
@diplomat, Low value in the traits that are beneficial to long term relationships between the sexes. That being women who have cultivated personality traits that will serve them as wives and mothers. Even suggesting that women should cultivate these traits will see you met with howls of derision from women and how they do things for themselves (selfish and narcissistic traits) not for any man (altruistic and empathic traits). And let me just tell you that if you are alone with a woman she can make up any story she wants and you are then guilty of it and must… Read more »
@TuffLuv See Rollo’s response to myrealitie. The provisioning aspect of men is the differing factor. Men as a general rule do not care about a woman’s provisioning independent of her sexual attraction. The same cannot be said of women looking at men. They separate our attractive and arousing qualities. This is how the third sex arises: provisioning independent of sexual arousal. The majority of men do not separate those qualities out. They’re just a continuum of woman. Like no woman could suddenly become so good at her job that now I want to marry her. Or suddenly become so famous… Read more »
If I could add to that, throughout my life, especially my younger years way before I discovered anything resembling the teachings of Rollo, but even now, post red pill discovery, I have actively been nice to and have been platonic friends with fat women. I have even had them (not purposely by me) get led on and try to make out with me (and then they cried and begged when I did not do that–but they were not invisible to me). I have had women who are only marginally less attractive than my standard, with whom I have flirted, and… Read more »
@tuffluv, Men don’t view an old or fat woman through a lens of utility though. Men don’t look at a fat woman and then think, “well she has a master’s degree and drives a nice car. I’ll hang out with her and maybe finger fuck her because later I might need to have her support me and my kids.” Men look at the fat woman and say she’s a woman who is a 1 or a 2 and hence of such low value that I would not buy that product even if it was free. Where as women will keep… Read more »
Blatant tangent: what’s the latest crotch dangle experiment?
@Sun How about her raising? Meaning, does she cook? Does she know how to keep a home clean? Would she make a good mother? Do any of these factor in when a man is looking for a potential mate? I’d say hell yes. But I concede it depends on how you phrase the question. You’re absolutely correct when I’m looking for a chick to bang (i.e. arousal), I could care less about those things. Same goes for women when on the AF side of the hypergamy equation. But in looking for someone to settle down with, skills, or intangibles do… Read more »
@Sun and Strings
Maybe we’re hitting on an overlooked dynamic here. Sure, I agree, provisioning from a female matters not. But there are other intangibles men do find attractive in a woman besides hotness. It just so happens we ALL (men) want both, the hotness and the intangibles. But given the hard choice in desperation, we will opt for the hotness (arousal).. And I think women are the opposite. They will opt for the security (attraction).
From Taking Things Slow: If you encountered a woman who fit every ideal you ever had for a relationship – best friend, loving, 100% loyal, excellent mother, came from a great family, perfect HB 10, healthy both mentally and physically, emotionally available, intellectually stimulating, shared all your beliefs – who loved you unconditionally and wanted to marry you, but with one caveat; he/she would NEVER have sex with you under any circumstances, would you marry this person? You could have children together through insemination and they would always be platonically affectionate with you; knowing full well before you did, and… Read more »
@sun, I’ve stopped spinning plates completely and an making some deliberate massive changes in life that mean no more plates. Though I think I can adapt the bangle thing down to a more subtle level and still get away with it. Anything that gets a woman to associate you with sex seems to work no matter how blatant. @tuff, I agree that women will choose provisioning over alpha fucks. Right now big daddy government gives them all the provisioning that they need by taking our tax dollars from us and further taxing the identified “fathers” of their children. Matriarchy. Children… Read more »
@Rollo Great. I get that.. but let me ask you something(s).. Does this not mean men are simply more superficial than women? Also, if, when it comes to LTRs, women are more apt to forgo AF in favor of BB, is this such a bad thing for men? I mean, since we can’t all be (the former) Brad Pitt, wouldn’t most of us be dead in the water, if it weren’t for the fact that women are less superficial than us? Shouldn’t they be commended for committing to a man who doesn’t necessarily pass their tingle test? And isn’t this… Read more »
Men are not necessarily more superficial than women. Most men in their SMV prime will choose to fuck a 4, whereas many women won’t fuck less than an 8. Though also remember that women always fuck for PURPOSE, men for PLEASURE.
And men DO like women for their personality, however, this becomes irrelevant because women are repulsed by a man who likes their personality too much, nor does he take his personality into account when deciding if he is a viable AF or BB.
How about her raising? Meaning, does she cook? Does she know how to keep a home clean? Would she make a good mother? Do any of these factor in when a man is looking for a potential mate? I’d say hell yes. But I concede it depends on how you phrase the question. But how you phrase the question doesn’t change if physical attractiveness is required. If I want to marry or just ONS, her SMV still matters to me. Either way. If you wanna marry a chick then she also has to have those things you mentioned, but she… Read more »
Women can have lust too. They choose the good looking alpha guy, even if he is broke, the village idiot or bad boy and a dumb ass, for flings when they are young and still in school. Women can hook-up with alphas when they are older, but will rarely marry a guy like that, even if they could. When women are young, their provider beta is their father paying her bills, so they have that half of the equation solved, so they just see and go after the hot looking alphas, and ignore the betas. But when they graduate college… Read more »
It’s important to remember that this ‘compromise’ usually comes at the convenient time when a woman becomes less able to hold Alpha sexual attention. It’s not a preference for, it’s necessity of.
Awww, too bad. Man’s gotta go what a man’s gotta do, though. Good luck with it. Maybe I’ll try it at some point myself if it feels like it fits.
I hate to see anyone get hung up on a “better or worse than” crusade when defining men’s imperatives vs. women’s. It simply is what is. Not evil, not good. Just “is.” Isn’t “provisioning with the expectation of sexual reward” a recipe for getting the biological shaft in the AF/BB paradigm?
(See Rollo’s “Saving The Best.”)
The more we know about the mechanics of how things actually work, the better off we all are.
“Put another way: a man will fuck a woman he doesn’t want to marry. A man will not marry a woman he doesn’t want to fuck. A woman will fuck a man she doesn’t want to marry. A woman will marry a man she doesn’t want to fuck. The provisioning aspect makes all the difference.”
Bingo. My point exactly.
Women are a mercenary lot.
Have you ever read something that kind of sparks so many connections in your head that you literally stand, start pacing and thinking out loud trying to make sense of all the connections coming into place? Thats me. Read this post and had that exact reaction. Damn, I love this blog. Damn Rollo, thanks! @sun wukong.. Great quote about men and womens marrying strategies. I’m really digging the clarity of your posts. Phenomenal comments your making. You also asked this question: “If Alpha seed (essentially the genes) is what a woman is looking for, then how can Alpha be viewed… Read more »
TuffLuv – “women are more apt to forgo AF in favor of BB, is this such a bad thing for men?”
You gotta be fucking kidding.
Of course this arrangement works fine if the woman can successfully fake her sexual desire for the Beta drone. The ones who are best at it sell it as GFE, the Girl Friend Experience, and bill $200 plus an hour.
@Tony and Sun I dunno guys, see my above post to rollo as to why that’s not necessarily an all-bad thing.. But let me just point out to all of you that there is a middle ground, sorta.. This is my experience with my 19 year (near-ex) wife. She was, and still is pretty hot. You know, maybe a 7.5 or something.. Not the most beautiful face, but pretty.. smoking hot body, minus large breasts.. best legs you’ve ever seen. I am a (some would say strikingly) handsome man, but fairly lacking in shape and of somewhat slight build, though… Read more »
So, are you saying every girl you’ve had enjoyable sex with has been of lower SMV then you? And if not, were the one’s who were higher SMV all faking it for you?
Believe it or not, a chick can still get off on her chosen man.. Chicks can and do enjoy sex this way all the time.
I may not have been the most alpha of my wife’s sexual partners (not sure really), but I guarantee you I did many things to her no man has ever done, and she enjoyed every minute of it.
Ahhh come on TuffLuv your a woman right?
@Tuff, not to rub salt in the wound, but you and your ex’s story is a cliche now. It’s the “making up for missing out” story. Woman marries early, cashes her chips in before she knows better, lives vicariously through her single girlfriends until such time that the “Alpha” she knew at 20 is the hapless Beta she’s saddled with at 39. Divorce porn media convinces her to bail out and get with the Alpha she’s always missed for all that time. She did everything in reverse – Beta comfort and dependability through her party years, to be traded for… Read more »
@Tony232, you should read these posts:
Ouch, Rollo. That’s my back story, too.
Said every guy who married the only girl he’s ever had sex with.
“No woman will stand beside a beta as he faces, and succumbs to, death. Not unless it’s convenient, or she would be shamed otherwise. It simply would not make sense for her to do so. Would you hold your employee’s hand as they lay dying? Only if they had a fatal accident right in front of you. Past that, condolences to the kids.”
Fourth pic down.
It’s been a while but you seem to be headed in the right direction. There’s still many things I disagree with in this post but eh, the kinks will workout once you truly ingest the red pill without blue-pill “game theory” blurring your perception. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated and neither can it be fooled into a visceral response. Our evolution has encoded for male desire to be ravenous and less discriminating than that of a female’s. See: Eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap. Or as they say in the manosphere, “The Fundamental Premise.” For those wondering why there’s a… Read more »
Question, can women’s perception of Alpha status be deceived?
If so, then Alpha is a state of mind, not a demographic.
If not, women would never have had the need to evolve mental and social apparatus to discern a difference because that status would be self-evident.
And as expected you once again take that out of context: http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/ Alpha is mindset, not a demographic. Alpha is as Alpha does, it isn’t what we say it is. There are noble Alphas and there are scoundrel Alphas, the difference is all in how they apply themselves. There’s a tendency to approach every “Alpha” argument from what a guy thinks is righteousness; ergo, his personal definition of Alpha is what appeals best to his sense of virtue. He earned his Alpha cred, played by the rules, and by God people (women) should respect that. However, the sad truth is… Read more »
Ha ha @rollo.. Like I told you.. former rock star, just like you, my brother. I lived for pussy for many years. Met my wife my senior year in college. Yes, she was the best. Not the best looking, just the most giving. but I had some great shit before her my friend. Including full on porno sex. Nice shot across the bow, but way off the mark.
Rollo – “Question, can women’s perception of Alpha status be deceived?”
Yes. Otherwise game wouldn’t work…at all…ever.
@rollo Your assessment is correct.. except get this.. she’s now engaged to a dude, who by all measures, doesn’t compare to me, and is a super-beta. Go figure. Now maybe that first playa was something, I don’t know. From what she says, no, he wasn’t much and she dumped him and came back to my bed for a time. The overriding factor here is BPD. She’s a victim hunter now. But she straight up says I’m too mean, too bad.. and too unyielding and she wants a nicer guy now. But overall, yes, your assessment is correct. It was definitely… Read more »
@Tuff, yet here you are, and there your wife is with the playa. I’m not trying to get a rise out of you, just saying that the 19 years between 23 and 42 you spent with the wife might limit your understanding about the female sexual strategy.
That playa only played his role in the eat, pray, love script. The only smoke he blew was what your ex wanted to have blown at her. You are an Alpha Agent of Righteous Karma, don’t give her the benefit of the doubt.
I don’t think it’s deception if you’ve internalized the attitudes and Alpha is strictly a mindset. It is deception if the genes are Alpha and you’re not part of the demographic she’s biologically aiming for.
I’m not sure I agree with this post. I grew up RP. I was Alpha, my gf (now wife) could not get enough sex. I was spinning 2 other plates at the time, but she thought it was 4. Baby 1 came and her sex drive dove and I BP. Eventually I got fed up and dread worked horribly well. She is SAHM and she got mad and left to stay at hotel (on my $). I told her to get home in 30 min or she can collect her stuff. Our kids freaking out. I took ALL of her… Read more »
Not every man who quits giving a shit about what women think goes MGTOW. Digesting the red pill changed me from a flaky and apparently charming and high achieving sigma into a more alpha and concertedly aggressive guy, charming when I want to turn it on but a little aloof otherwise. I am mostly pretty happy with myself but really have trouble caring what women might think about me, including my wife. This has pretty obviously ratcheted up her dread and corresponding efforts to please me. While I’m not thrilled about that (I’ve always found sheepishly submissive women boring, as… Read more »
Right you are.. she told the playa what an ass I was and he was all too happy to white knight for her.. but just for clarity.. not that it matters.. she’s not with the playa.. she’s engaged to a different chump. Actually an ok guy, thankfully. She’s whacked bro.
And yes, I get that my opinion has limited worth because of my 20 year absence from the scene.
@Sun, if you sift through some of the comments at Just4Guys or Dalrock or even Aunt Sue’s and you picked out the comments from women who were asked what it is they consider Alpha, every last one of them will relate some version of upstanding gentleman, to superman, to confident guy, to socially mobiley upward and basically what they think they should say to preserve the impression that they aren’t subject whatsoever to the impulse Siirtyrion just described. Yet 50 Shades of Grey takes the single largest February movie debut profit in history $94.7M. I actually agree with Siirtyrion in… Read more »
“women are more apt to forgo AF in favor of BB….” If you believe this, you haven’t been fucking. look around you at what is really happening. AF is primary in women’s sexual strategy BB is secondary. Women spend their youth fucking alphas then “settle down” with waiting betas after they’ve “sown their wild oats”. The fucking alphas phase is lasting longer and longer these days and women are slightly more openly expressing their activities. What you see in the media and public discourse about it, is like roaches. You only see about 10% of all the roaches. The rest… Read more »
@Rollo, It’s amusing on occasion to ask a woman to define her perfect man and then to discover all the things she didn’t even mention because to her those things simply define “man” and she was describing the perfect one of those. Fits in very well with the idea that alphas and betas are seen as two different species. Betas aren’t even men. @Tuff, There is a higher chance then not that the imaginary woman who exists in your head alone had cheated on you during the marriage then not. Get into the gym, work on that diet, download myfitnesspal… Read more »
“He simply thinks there is no psychological component to arousal & attraction.” And if so he is wrong. I knew a couple guys in the college weight lifting club who were physically about as alpha as possible. They were real specimens of masculinity physically. But…they were total pussies when it came to women, shy, unsure of themselves, fell all over themselves to be blatantly nice to girls, holding doors, looking for excuses to be protective, “wore their hearts on their sleeves” and fell for girls with the slightest hint of interest. Both pinned away over girls they met and barley… Read more »
“Beta is a fine sexual strategy when women need provisioning”
NOT if you REALLY want to FUCK.
“While I disagree that there are no distinct physical and cultural markers that women use (sometimes subconsciously) to distinguish Alpha men from the bulk of Beta men, I strongly agree with the distinction and characterization Forge the Sky makes with how women regard Beta men.”
In your opinion, what are all or most of the markers that women use?
No matter how alpha you are or think you are, Uncle Sam has better game than you.
@Rollo: “Can women’s perception of Alpha status be deceived?” I don’t hint on “status” because status in and of itself doesn’t inspire a visceral response. Sure, women can and do spread for these men but again, just because a woman spreads for you doesn’t completely imply that she actually WANTS to be with you. This is key to acknowledging the primal desire that does exist in women, but only so few men have actually experienced. The fact that women actually favor different types of men during her varying menstrual cycle should give you a hint here. re: Alpha is a… Read more »
Food for thought….please don’t gag on it. There seems to be (to me at least) a social-psychological dynamic that supersedes all of this, and may be the most basic driver of emotional reactions and behavior. My best example is an observation I made several years ago. I was completing the finishing touches on a home I built for a Houston Oilers football player and his wife. They had just moved in and we were completing a few paint touch ups. The movers had gouged a wall damaging the sheetrock and I scheduled the drywall company to repair it. We were… Read more »
Just wanted to chime in here my agreement with the post. Women see two kinds of men, alpha and beta. Or men and males. To women, “men” are sexual beings. “Males” are not. Men are for fun and fucking. Males are for the drudgery of every day life. Men are exciting and mysterious, and work at interesting jobs. Males change the oil, take out the garbage, fix the toilets, and make the computers work. Men are boyfriends, ONSs and fuckbuddies. Males are husbands, coworkers, friends, and the guys from accounting. ____________________ Men don’t see two kinds of women. Rather, all… Read more »
Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.
Hmmm,…you sure about that?
Women do not love Beta-men conditionally, they harvest them for Parasitic-Utility.
Some guys here seem to be advocating that women do get off on betas, etc. and that Rollo is off here, but you have to remember every man is a mix of alpha and beta traits. Very few men are all alpha or all beta. Those times when girls were getting off with you were when they were primarily focused on your alpha qualities. I think this is why women can get hot for a guy with money or status because these things can trigger “alpha” cues in her mind. Sartyrion makes this mistake as well. He makes the mistake… Read more »
They get to a point where they become invisible by choice.
The choice of defeat seems so ugly in a man. You may in fact be defeated. But to choose it? And men who choose defeat think they are defying the FI. No. You just make the winnowing by the FI less arduous.
Women do not have magic genetic sniffers…
Actually they do. And I’m convinced “Alpha” is a pheromone mix. It is well known that women’s sense of smell is better than a man’s.
Ovulating women favour dominant men’s smell
When you have the dominant feeling you put out dominance smells.
@ M. Simon Interesting. I have almost no sense of smell. But I can smell, almost taste in the air a sexually aroused woman. If other women pick on that it would explain some of the feeding frenzy aspects of preselection, especially if there’s a pre-arousel element that signals the possibility of full arousal. But I think that it in terms of man emitting a pheromone it may well be situational, like the so-called smell of fear. A smell of dominance might be the opposite response. Since nothing succeeds like success it might be self reinforcing. So any man would… Read more »
Badpainter is correct- your pheromonal signature will change- even working out will increase the levels of pheromones emitted. Here is an interesting tidbit- celery actually increases a mans pheromones. Your immune system type can also be picked up through scents. There was a study I read about that showed that people tended to pick mates with complimentary immune system types. Men are pheromonally sensitive as well- but do we come on here and argue that men have special pickers for quality women? Of course not. Much as people want to simplify all the things that go into attraction, it’s all… Read more »
@Rollo Yet 50 Shades of Grey takes the single largest February movie debut profit in history $94.7M. I actually agree with Siirtyrion in that respect. He simply thinks there is no psychological component to arousal & attraction. It sounds like your focus on Alpha as a mindset rather than a demographic is more about a man changing the part that he has a lot more control over. You can’t change how tall you are or your basic genetically determined looks, but you can change almost everything about the attitude you present. Further, what’s more important in a man getting what… Read more »
Not to simplify but to find explanation. The shifting pheromones would go some way to explaining “fake it till you make it” as being more than just psychological trick on one’s self and would reinforce the notion of frame/inner game as being the foundation to everything else. Also, if such could be tested in a rigourous experimental way it would go far to proving game is more than a mere trick. It’s not about having pickers for quality but gaining effective attractors to cast the widest net and reaping a larger catch.
February 24th, 2015 at 7:34 pm
Go through RP stages and then read Aleister Crowley. It is all joy ineffable.
Thelema is RP religion. “Be strong so thou can bear more joy.” and “Take your fill of love and will.”
February 25th, 2015 at 1:12 am
@Badpainter- most definitely- physiology and psychology effects biology and the reverse is, as we all know, true. We tend to focus on changing the physical to force changes all the time- its the basis of anti-depressants. Change biology to change psychology. But changing psychology will effect biology as well. Muscle tone, facial cues, hormones etc. The most obvious is fear- everyone knows fear can be smelled by animals but by people too. having cancer can be detected via smell as well. The greatest thing Game does is it makes men face their fear- this reduces the amount of cortisol and… Read more »
February 25th, 2015 at 1:44 am
I have a very close friend. About 5′ 8″ maybe a little less. And he just exudes Alpha. So intense that a formerly gay chick (closet bi?) has been hooked up with him for about a decade. And she is taller than he is. But in their presence you don’t notice.
@Rollo: Question, can women’s perception of Alpha status be deceived?
If so, then Alpha is a state of mind, not a demographic.
Hence the need for “Shit-tests”…ok, it all makes sense now.
@ Hobbes Everything ties together. The body language, to mental state, to emotional state, to pheromones and other chemistry it’s all important. One of the worst mangers, and biggest pussies I’ve ever worked for was at one time, briefly, an NFL player. Guy was well built, big, but terrible body language. He had no confidence, hated confrontation, and could neither command, nor demand respect. A real pushover. He replaced one of the best mangers I’ve ever worked for. This guy we called The Emporer because walked around like Napolean hands clasped at his back him chin up and in complete… Read more »
@TheDiplomat – “None of them that I’ve witnessed comes across as placid or monk-like in their choice.”
Why are you putting *anyone* up on a pedestal?
An exemplar of the conscious or unconscious ruthlessness of the female imperative can be seen from James Sama’s blog (and its supporters). His blog is a hymnal to beta white-knighting shlubbiness (just watch the accompanying video) and endless chivalric supplication to womens needs, but his recommendation by the Indiechicks as “Best Male Blog” is more revealing. The Indiechicks are edited by a good-looking 29 year old “badass” single mother named Chiara Mazzuccobut but founded, financed and run by an ageing and proud slut named Chrystal Rose. Chrystal’s main claim to fame is writing a raunchy memoir named “Unfaithfully Yours: Confessions… Read more »
@hobbes “People are being way too simplistic and binary about this.” THIS Most accurate post in this thread. Any man who has fucked a girl with a higher SMV than his own should know this. And as far as invisibility.. this cuts both ways folks. There are girls in my office building I see regularly who have given me consistent IOIs, who I’m just not interested in romantically. They’re sweet and intelligent, but I ain’t feeling it. It’s called chemistry, and we ALL place a high value on it. Invisible men.. suck it up and pick your path. I personally… Read more »
Side note/ OT: I find it to incredible (and unbelievably stupid) that any man who has taken TRP and was not a natural alpha before could do or think things like: 1. Still be friendly/give attention to women who dont offer themselves sexually 2.Still be useful or helpful to them as in 1. Of course appearing alpha to women via game works – but that changes nothing about their inherently animal-like and deceiving nature. How one can sustain THE OLD SET OF RULEBOOKS *DESPITE* knowing better Especially today and especially after acquiring game, there is only one way to go,… Read more »
To see that it IS about mindset and not demographic, consider this: Women want to be with the guy with the highest pecking order, if possible. They want to be with the guy who other men are deferring to. This means that they will have the highest chances of having offspring who themselves will be high status and have a lot of mating opportunities. Genes are actually secondary. This is obvious once you observe that women will completely lose interest in a man who falls in the pecking order in favor of the man who is higher in the pecking… Read more »
@447 You’re ridiculous man.. Do you really think your advice will help these invisible young gents? Are you telling me you don’t hold the door for a hot chick you just saw for the first time, to set the stage for the elevator ride you’re about to share, in order to gain a little edge in qualifying for her interest? You’re full of shit, man. Boys, you WILL qualify for her affection, whether you like it or not. You WILL perform. Being an asshat in a one on one scenario will never get you the girl. In a social scene,… Read more »
Found an interesting example of dread game (start at 1:31)
Wait. I was taking demographic to be a proxy for genes. It seemed like people on the thread were essentially saying that you are either alpha or you are not and that no “tricks” will work. I disagree with this. But if by demographic, you mean status in the community, then yes, that is important too. But you can REALLY manipulate the way a woman views your status. Either in your favor or not in your favor. This is why women who are married to CEO’s can still behave like hen-pecking monsters; if they only see the guy a few… Read more »
I am with you on this one. From a biological standpoint, females are able to sniff out alpha genes through smell, and visual alone (perhaps even other sensory cues). They can determine alpha without ever communicating with the male verbally.
We can not just make assumptions, we need to take the side of science were facts are proven in terms of female innate attraction.
Alpha is a demographic, there are zero natural alphas on this site.
The knowledge Rollo imparts makes all kinds of rational sense, but I think it breeds a just a little bitterness and fear, especially for the younger, more impressionable, and less sexually successful men. So, please allow me to make a point, despite my being mired in marriage the past twenty years. Believe it or not, my 7 or so years of hayday prior to my marriage taught me a lot of truth about getting laid, because, as a skinny kid, I had to find ways to get the hot chicks I wanted, and get them I did. I did so… Read more »
One of the most interesting things about my career in the Military was that you could identity the women who enlisted in order to find and secure through marriage the Men with Status in the Officer ranks long before they actually did so. Once you saw it happen, you could always pick them out.
…I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. This would be hilarious. I haven’t read the above comments. Has it happened yet? This is hilarious for many reasons. But consider the previous section of Rollo’s post… Women don’t see all men as potentially attractive, they see betas and alphas. Beta’s are guaranteed to remain invisible, alphas by contrast are what women are after. Despite the fact that men of all kinds exist, alphas are all that women are… Read more »
Has it happened yet?
@TuffLuv – yeah, I’m thankful that I have options. But also as a married guy having spent a while thinking about the sausage maker, the unhappy truths have sort of deadened me in a lot of ways and I don’t think it’s good for the relationship, though I don’t think I’d want to undo what I know either. It’s too much information in a lot of ways, right? It’s a bit like the slightly older woman who looks awesome in the French restaurant at 10 PM, in dim light after a bottle of Bordeaux, but you see her at 6:00… Read more »
Also, random thought here… Would the reason that women do not like the script being explicitly told to them (i.e., women want a man to “just get it” rather than having to discuss it)… be because women are not fully aware of their own strategies? See, awareness brings responsibility. You can’t say, “Yes, I was aware there was a drowning child 5 feet from me, but I kept watching the superbowl anyway.” Likewise, if women were ever fully confronted with the coldness of many of their sexual strategies, their plausible deniability is shattered. Even if the man telling them all… Read more »
“expand your knowledge in the sciences more and stop giving in to simply hearsay by subjective views and reports touted by PUAs and its supporters”
given the extent of PUA videos and field reports, and the frequent opportunity to see them live doing pick up, it is distinctly unscientific to deny they are getting laid lots