The Invisibles

invisibles

Forge the Sky:

The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.

But women have different relationships with them. To women, betas are friends, helpers, co-workers, employees, servants; unless related by blood, they are practical beings only. There is no romance to them. They are useful, fun, maybe even someone to be a little affectionate toward so long as they remain useful, but they have no deeper self, no soul, no mystical thing to bind to.

Alphas are something else entirely. They are actually people – people drenched with desire, romance, spirit. Him, she can respect. In greater cases even worship. It matters little how well he performs objectively, so long as he does nothing to make her doubt her assessment of him as alpha. If he does perform, she admires and praises his performance – but she’s doing that about something or another regardless, even if she’s gushing about how he bought her a bag of skittles.

No woman will stand beside a beta as he faces, and succumbs to, death. Not unless it’s convenient, or she would be shamed otherwise. It simply would not make sense for her to do so. Would you hold your employee’s hand as they lay dying? Only if they had a fatal accident right in front of you. Past that, condolences to the kids.

Men see two genders. Men and women. Better and worse, more and less attractive, but no fundamental difference. Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women. And so we try to improve our beta game, instead of flipping the script.

The blue pill is miserable because it is learned helplessness. From within, it is the cracking of an invisible whip, punishment meted capriciously and without time or reason. There is no pattern or method to the blue pill man’s pain.

FTS must’ve been reading my mind this week because his comment made a perfect segue into what I’ve been developing this week. The most salient part of this comment, I thought, was “Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women.”

This was a good observation because there are intrinsic parts of the male psychological firmware that the Feminine Imperative picked up on long ago and deliberately co-opts to better aid in optimizing women’s control of Hypergamy.

From the utility-need side of Hypergamy, this mostly manifests in various forms of serviceable security. The Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy can be distilled to a need for security, protection, and a certainty that a woman and her offspring will be insured against any uncertainty. Every psychological and sociological dynamic that contributes to feminine-primacy keys on this need for existential certainty. The War Brides dynamic, the evolution from old-order chivalry to modern feminism, and now the social / legal handicapping of men to ensure that feminine-security certainty above all other considerations are all manifestations of this need.

The Feminine Imperative learned long ago that men’s innate protectorate instinct for the feminine was its second most valuable means of masculine control – the first being men’s ‘always on’ sexual impetus. Thus pairing the two as a means of control is a simple deductive proposition for the imperative. The rudimentary connection being, “protect the woman and I get sex.”

This is the unspoken exchange that’s part of our evolutionary past. Men are nothing if not deductive (yet creative) problem solvers, and women have used this to their hypergamous advantage since our hunter-gatherer beginnings.

This is what confounds modern men under the auspices of our present feminine-primary social order. We’re emphatically told that women “never owe men sex“, yet the latent message is, and has always been, “but, if you perform to her satisfaction, she might be more inclined to give you sex.” Carrot to pull the cart, I know, but this mental algorithm is a sociological buffer for women – exclude the sexually unworthy, but leave an acceptable caveat in order to leverage the possibility of sex with those who are still useful in providing security.

Bear this in mind the next time you read a story about a savior White Knight who was beaten to a bloody pulp for his effort to protect a woman from the “predations” of some Alpha(s) she likely wants to bang anyway. Men will project, by default, our own gender interpretation onto women, and sometimes pay the price for it. Betas believe the feminine-primary, equalist advertising that men and women are functional equals while still force fitting an expected, old-order, male-protectionism (completely based on an unequal state presumption) into that belief – often at their own expense.

Invisible Men

While I disagree that there are no distinct physical and cultural markers that women use (sometimes subconsciously) to distinguish Alpha men from the bulk of Beta men, I strongly agree with the distinction and characterization Forge the Sky makes with how women regard Beta men.

The vast majority of men are sexually invisible to women, but all males are visible in terms of their utility to women and the role those men are expected to play in deference to women’s solipsism.

There’s an important difference in that visibility with respect to men and women we need to consider.

I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. That may be the case, particularly for mature women convinced they should be sexually viable into their 50s, however, those women’s functional utility is never an issue for men. Neither is it an article of attraction for a man. As much as a feminine-centric culture would like to convince women of the opposite, men simply don’t factor a woman’s provisional utility into their attraction equation.

Invisible men never become visible to women until either those men intrude on a woman’s’ awareness or she has a specific utilitarian need of him. At this point, whether due to arousal / attraction awareness or her specific need (usually protection or security insurance), that man must perform to prove his maleness. He must qualify for her visual acknowledgment of him.

Over prolonged periods, this invisibility, and the fear of having his insistence rejected, can influence men’s overall perception of women and their intergender interpretations. Invisible men tend to confuse a woman’s utility interests in him as genuine indicators of interest (IOIs). The Feminine Imperative prepares for this ‘mixed message’ with a constant, self-perpetuating social narrative that tells the invisible men they are never, under any circumstance, owed a woman’s intimacy – it is always a gift, a reward, for her approval.

Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman.

Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.

If we consider the 80 / 20 rule of the sexual marketplace and figure that 80% of Beta men are sexually invisible to women we get a broader perspective of how the gender landscape has evolved in an era where women’s security-side needs are planned for and met with a relative degree of certainty.

I had a teenage kid I used to consult who related this story about how one of his nerdy friends had somehow spontaneously generated the interest of a girl who was an obvious two points above his SMV. His initial frustration was one of wonderment about how this guy could be ‘dating’ so hot a girl while he wasn’t bumping the needle with even the girls he thought were a point below himself.

His nerdy friend assumed the predictable self-righteous Beta position that some “special” girls just understand and appreciate guys like him in favor of the brutish jocks “society tells them they should like.” All this came two weeks before that year’s homecoming dance (and after-party), where she promptly left him to go dance and party with her girlfriends and their jock guy-friends for the rest of the evening.

This kid had served his utilitarian purpose of fronting the money for the evening, a limo, corsage, photos (of their group) and the bit of risky underage liquor he could manage. In spite of all that he still refused to make the connection of his being used for her purpose. Invisibles feel validated in their own manipulation because that utility made them visible (“do my homework nerd”) even if just momentarily. As bad as that extortion was, that brief moment of visibility implies the prospect that another woman in the future (a really special one) will also appreciate his utility and reward it with her intimacy.

Needless to say, this visibility differential becomes an internalized factor in men’s approach to women. There are ways an invisible man can make himself visible; all require effort and risk. As I stated before, a man remains invisible unless his physical presence and arousal prompts make him unignorable, his performance is outstanding enough to draw attention or he simply asserts his visibility towards that woman. Physical bearing and performance recognition being the Alpha Fucks side of the Hypergamy equation is an easy follow, but a man asserting himself and his personality is where the Red Pill and applied Game come into play. This prospect will always imply risk of rejection until such a time that an Invisible’s confidence supersedes his self-image as an invisible.

We had a long discussion in the last thread about the mindset of the MGTOW contingent of the manosphere and the sentiment of men wishing to remove themselves wholesale from the sexual marketplace. I understand this sentiment and I know men, like Advocatus Diaboli, who have legitimately recused themselves from the SMP, but it seems to me this want is the result of having been invisible to women for so long. They get to a point where they become invisible by choice.

The Third Sex

I can’t finish this essay without drawing attention to FTS’s first observation:

The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.

After I’d reconsidered this I had to dig out my copy of Plato’s Symposium and pore through it to read the part where Aristophanes proposed that there were, in fact, three sexes (in primal times) that their all-male discussion collective ought to consider:

 There were three sexes: the all male, the all female, and the “androgynous,” who was half male, half female. The males were said to have descended from the sun, the females from the earth and the androgynous couples from the moon.

A lot is being made of transgenderism recently and the fluidity with which people want to arbitrarily “gender-identify” borders on the ridiculous, but FTS’s observation has more implications than I think most are aware of. I’m sorry to go all philosophus on you, but I can definitely see parallels with the symbolism Aristophanes suggests and the female perceptions of the division of maleness FTS brings out here. Although Aristophanes would say that these primal beings split into gays, lesbians and heterosexual beings, I’d suggest that this primal awareness stems from a male understanding of the division of Alpha and Beta men and how women perceive them, visibly and non-visibly.

I covered this a while back in Queens, Workers & Drones:

Selective Breeding

So powerful is this sense of entitlement, so consuming and convinced of the correctness of their purpose is the feminine that women will literally breed and raise generations of men to better satisfy it. Hypergamy is cruel, but nowhere more so than in the relationship between a mother overtly raising and conditioning a son to be a better servant of the feminine imperative.

But to breed a better worker, the feminine imperative’s queens can’t afford to have any corrupting, masculine, outside influence. On a societal scale this might mean removal (either by disincentives or forcibly) of a father from the family unit, but this is the easy, extreme illustration. There are far more subtle social and psychological means that the imperative uses to effect this filtering – via mass media, social doctrines, appeals to (feminized) morality, the feminine is placed as the correct imperative while the masculine is filtered out or apologetically tolerated as vestiges of an immature and crude reminder of masculinity’s incorrectness.

Yet for all of this social engineering Hypergamy still demands satisfaction of women’s most base imperative, Alpha seed. The queens need physically / psychologically dominant drones – if just for a season and at their ovulatory pleasure. While beta workers are endlessly vetted in sisyphean tasks of qualifying for the acceptance of the feminine imperative, the Alpha drones live outside this shell; their qualifications only based on how well they satisfy the feminine’s visceral side of  hypergamy.

The great irony of this social solution to hypergamy and long term parental investment is that the vast majority of the offspring of this arrangement would be raised to be better workers. Those betas-to-be boys must be insulated from the corrupting influence of the drones lest they devolve into the Alphas they crave yet cannot control. It may seem counterintuitive, to raise what should ostensibly be optimized genetic stock as a cowed, sometimes medically restrained, feminized beta males. However it is through this harsh conditioning that truly dominant Alphas must rise above. Essentially the genetic lottery isn’t won by women in such a social environment – it’s men, or the ones who rise above in spite of the conditioning efforts of the feminine imperative.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

@melmoth

His door game is definitely on point.

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

@SFC Ton

Hypergamy doesn’t care about blood relay’s.

Forge the Sky
9 years ago

Thanks for the callout Rollo. I’m stuck in the middle of IRL stuff right now, so I haven’t had a chance to read all the comments yet. They’re growing faster than I can read them. But a few thoughts about the original post. First of all, coherent. Well done, this put things to the heart of the matter in a way I was trying to but couldn’t quite get to yet. (As far in the comments as I got, Sun Wukong was really nailing it as well.) From the OP: This is what confounds modern men under the auspices of… Read more »

M3
M3
9 years ago

Hey Rollo, don’t have anywhere to dump this article. You may have read it already. It kinda fits in with the invisibles topic. (nice=unattractive=unseen)

http://www.newsweek.com/study-finds-men-nice-women-not-other-way-around-261269?piano_d=1

I’m sure this kind of study would give your favorite Aunt a seizure.

Softek
Softek
9 years ago

It’s so simple, but so complex. As I’ve been making my way to the other side, I’ve forgotten how Blue Pill I used to be. Funnily enough, even from the time I was a little kid, one of my ‘weird’ behaviors was holding the door for people. Excessively. When all the other kids were going out for recess, I’d literally stand there holding the door until every single kid went through. I did this every day for years. By the time the last kids got out recess would almost be over. Even in high school I would just stand there… Read more »

thedeti
9 years ago

david: Yes, money can be an arousal component. But for it to be arousal and not strictly a “comfort” aspect, not beta bucks, the guy has to have a lot of money. I mean he needs to have a net worth of at least 8 figures. I mean Donald Trump level wealthy. At that point it can become an arousal factor, but it does have to be partnered with other things like ostentatious display of that wealth through clothing, houses, cars, material possessions, and extravagant living. A law partner in an eastern megalopolis law firm pulling down around $400K annually… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@sjfrellc

“I don’t know if I recall correctly”

I appreciate your post.. and yes, even her affair is my fault, as are all of her post-separation problems, as are all of the struggles our children are going through as a result of the upheaval.

She is now on a quest to prove ALL of that, in court.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@SFC Ton

Personally I reckon women don’t give a fuck about blood kin betas either.

I think it’s worse than that. I think mothers abuse sons who aren’t alpha enough for them.

447
447
9 years ago

“@447 ““Owwww, don’t be like Jerk-John,” (rant) Dude, here’s another point where I disagree with the sphere.. just because the chick’s not fucking you, doesn’t mean the guy she is fucking is a jerk, asshole, etc.. Doesn’t mean that at all. The sphere has deluded itself greatly in this regard” That is no even the main point – again, you make a (virtual) collective female imago and her (supposed) needs, wants and (unseen) actions your mental point of origin. It is not important if “she” (any “she”) fucks/not fucks a) a vampire billionaire Pharao b) a scrawny accountant c) her… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@melmoth Tuffluv, Do you live and work in a high-traffic stairwell? How can you have such ‘door game’ as this? lol. Working in the same office building for 20 years. No chicks at my company. Seen hundreds of hotties and notties come and go at the other companies in the building over 20 years. Only interactions are in the lobby/hallways and the courtyard/parking lot/entry way. I go down to smoke once an hour, so do the math, quite a few doorway interactions. So, yes, I’m quite the authority. Clarity is good. Look, like badpainter said, it’s just manners. Personally, as… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@447

“1) For betas – because they could really shine in contrast, being a white-knight pussy would really be something “special” again. (Not that this would help them much, I guess…)”

This has already happened.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Clarification: In the middle-aged world.

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@blank, Your comment about how the FI is invading everything and taking it’s brainwashing to newer and deeper levels hits home. Is there anywhere that the FI doesn’t rule? Hell it even rules my home. If I don’t follow the FI inside my own home the police will come and take me to prison. I have found one group of men and women that despise the FI. Going so far as to banish feminists. Though I haven’t officially been able to join yet. One of my neighbors in this group has already tried to set me up with his post… Read more »

BigAl
BigAl
9 years ago

Deti, I agree with you. I alwass wondered if it is still capable to legally structure a “traditional” marriage that makes divorce very unfavorable. Air tight prenups to prevent any theft of assets and children, etc. As a man who wants children someday, Im curious to see if their is a way to legally keep the frame and control firmly in my grasp. Thoughts or experiences anyone? We need a red pill law firm to help us raise a family haha

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@bigal,

Prenups are routinely thrown out by being modified by the judge. If you include anything about children your prenup is going to be automatically thrown out/modified. The women always gets the choice of how much she wants the children and has full power over fatherhood. They will not allow any agreement to the contrary. This has been researched and attempted already.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

Makes sense to me now Re: Tuff.

20 years with a BPD chick would have had to require an I.V. drip of Beta infusions pretty regularly.

BigAl
BigAl
9 years ago

@StringsofCoins

I heard they are regularly disregarded, sounds like there are no exceptions or success stories. Im a commercial contractor, so Im already extremely weary of contracts, especially unfavorable ones. Sounds like a real uphill battle. Is there a way to have kids without putting your life on the chopping block?

Dont want to hijack the thread here, if anyone has any good advice on structuring this, please let me know. Im red pill as they come now, but I still want to live in Texas and raise a family someday. Thanks yall

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@bigal, That question was what used to define the MRM. Now it’s just a bunch of whiny “equalists” trying to get men assigned the status of oppressed so I can not recommend the current MRM. I have put considerable effort into trying to find a way to gain fatherhood while doing what I can to minimize the massive risk. Moving to a foreign country is a good choice. The Philippines seemed like the best bet for me. Cost to move, lose contact with friends and family, and adopt a new culture. Or you can pretend to be gay and pay… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Meh.. she’s not really very crafty.. I was her savior and her fixer. My name here on this site comes from the irony that Tough Love is pretty much the only love I know how to give. It failed with her, in the end. My MO was pretty much oppressive rule, and that is pretty much what she wrestled from my grasp in the last 2-3 years of our marriage. To be fair, we both oppressed each other, and kept each other very close to the vest, which is technically the only reason we made it this far, other than… Read more »

TheRhoubbhe
TheRhoubbhe
9 years ago

@Rollo Awesome point. The chivalric code of conduct really only applied to the nobility; not so much the peasantry. Knights routinely slaughtered, raped, pillaged the peasantry; they simply replaced the ecological niche that Vikings once held. I am sure most villagers screamed and fled in terror at the sight of a group of knights riding over a hill. The whole concept originated the church trying to restrain knightly violence. Even the later notions of “Courtly Love” have no modern application; most nobles from birth were in arranged marriages. None of these codes applied to the vast majority of people. The… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

I alwass wondered if it is still capable to legally structure a “traditional” marriage that makes divorce very unfavorable. Air tight prenups to prevent any theft of assets and children, etc. As a man who wants children someday, Im curious to see if their is a way to legally keep the frame and control firmly in my grasp. Thoughts or experiences anyone? We need a red pill law firm to help us raise a family haha @BigAl — Not really, no. Pre-nups are most likely to be enforced by a court if they relate to pre-marital assets that are disclosed… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@StringsofCoins

Hahaha, Mormons huh?

Don’t get me wrong; I’ve had Mormon neighbors and they’re generally happy, nice folks, but I don’t think I could join their cult just to have children and avoid feminism. Rather play the foreign card.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

I’d like to add, that my sons coming of age was a huge trigger-point in the catastrophe.. maybe, just maybe this could help someone in a similar situation. Her lack of a normal childhood and emotional immaturity due to arrested development due to her completely inadequate alcoholic mother, coupled with her being female, left her with absolutely no understanding of the teenage boy dynamic. As they began to assert themselves, her only response was to reassert herself. She always talked to and treated them as if they were still 5 years old, and expected they would just ‘comply’, unconditionally, and… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@Novaseeker

moving to a country without an extradition treaty

That’s a helluva trick there. Hard to run from the long arm of the empire. Just ask Edward Snowden.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

That’s a helluva trick there. Hard to run from the long arm of the empire. Just ask Edward Snowden.

Indeed, it is.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
9 years ago

Too late Strings, the infiltration into the Male Space that was the LDS has alreeady begun:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/john-dehlin-popular-mormon-podcaster-excommunicated-church-n303656

Yeah, my experience with Mormons is that they look more patriarchy than they are, and that in many families, wife is in command, even if she “leads from behind” in outward appearance.

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

From House of Cards:

Claire: Recalling Frank’s proposal:

“He said, ‘Claire, if all you want is happiness, say no. I’m not going to give you a couple of kids and count the days until retirement. I promise you freedom from that. I promise you’ll never be bored.”

Claire: He was the only one who understood me.

Frank Underwood from this series is alpha as fk.

447
447
9 years ago

“Clarification: In the middle-aged world.” I agree, happens in the middle-aged world all the time. That is: When women are beyond their best (–> saving the best) and are looking for the “pension days” with the option of cashing out. (–> cashing out). Who wants that – IF there are other paths available? ________________________________________________ “.. only to point out that letting the door go accomplishes nothing. It’s those on the other side of the argument who think they are proving some kind of point, changing behaviors, making a statement with their actions.. and they are deluded. They’re just being rude,… Read more »

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@Rollo, So another feminist was ex communicated by the church? If you read that article closely you will note that this guy was making statements that women should be given the priesthood. Which is a bunch of religious talk for saying that the church should recognize women as just as high on the social religious scale as men. Not going to happen. Most ex communications happen because of adultery. I know many Mormons as my mother’s half of my family is entirely Mormon except for us. I’m aware of what I’m doing and the reasons I’m doing it. When I… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
9 years ago

Rollo,

Behavior psychology (rational male game) = newtonian determinism

___________ psychology = quantum mechanics?

is there something deeper (irrational) we may be missing here?

447
447
9 years ago

I will give another example, one I consider to be one of my best game moments although no lay was involved: I was driving through a mountain region in fall/winter last year, it was raining cats and dogs. I was very content because I had just finished an important work project the day before that I liked very much. I was enjoying a cigarete and drinking a fresh coffee, just contently driving through the mountains/hills home, watching the rain etc and feeling content. Some kilometers/miles away from the last highway ramp right in the middle of nowhere, I noticed a… Read more »

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@Nova,

Yes anyone who doubts AWALT is a fool. I’m just looking to lessen my risk of having future children taken from me.

cyfox
cyfox
9 years ago

I have adopted the red pill ideas, but I find I still have blue pill desires. I’m intentionally spinning plates for the first time, and while I like all of them, internally I just want to settle down with one person. Being loyal, or loving someone as myself are values that make up who I am. I’m not sure I can fully adapt to reality, where my best course is to look out for myself. Is there some idea I’m missing here?

redlight
redlight
9 years ago

this opening doors debate would be more interesting reframed as “Is cunnilingus beta?”

of course Rollo has that covered somewhere

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

@Rollo Yea, I had read that long ago, but with all the hype of the season 3 release I started watching clips and remembered the one above. I actually re-read your link before posting the quote. Classic stuff. @447 “Before I could even ponder on this ultra-cliche-like situation, the moment had passed and I drove on without slowing down.” That was a pretty bad story… I was waiting for you to stop, game her and smash her in the rain. If you don’t, someone else will. It’s like you screwed yourself over from a lay just because of principle in… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@cyfox

I struggle with the same thing, and as I see it the problem entirely centers around LTR as goal instead of consequence of a well lived life. Until you can truly dismiss it as a goal and replace it with other goals of your own design, you won’t have true outcome independence. Without that independence, you will need her more than she needs you. The failure cascades from there.

Removing the BP LTR as goal from your mind is incredibly difficult though, and that sounds like what you’re up against.

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

On another note I’m getting quite a few PMs on the red pill forums from men asking about how to find a RP therapist. Anyone have any tips here?

I think red pill life coaching to replace therapy for men could grow into a lucrative opportunity moving forward. In a sense that’s what Rollo’s books are. Men need fathers no matter what the FI claims.

Msam
Msam
9 years ago

If they arent intimitated by the penis metaphorically speaking (Maybe a little literary), you have low worth.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@sun and @cyfox Look guys, don’t be chickenshits. If LTR is your desire then let it happen. I have stated many times I don’t regret it at all, and my situation had all kinds of problems. I have yet to feel the worst pain from it all, that is coming. Still you will find I don’t regret it because I KNOW it’s what I wanted and asked for. Just use what you’ve gained here to manage it the best you can. Love completely, but never trust completely. Hide some fuckin money for christ sake. Make sure she works a job… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@StringsofCoins Only by dumb luck did I find one, and of course he doesn’t see it as “Red Pill”. He just acknowledges that most of the modern psychological profession has been overrun by rampant feminism and misandry harmful to male psychology. Unfortunately therapists like this face the reality that advertising those views openly can be damaging to their business and ultimately might cost them their professional credentials. Sad but true. If I can come up with criteria that can help identify such therapists I’ll be sure to post it here. In the meantime the best advice I can give is… Read more »

cyfox
cyfox
9 years ago

@Rollo, In “A New Hope” you wrote: “Throw that hope away and understand that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.” I’ll keep reminding myself, thank you.

cyfox
cyfox
9 years ago

@Sun Wukong. Yes, that is the difficulty. If others can do it, so can I.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv Look guys, don’t be chickenshits. Says the guy that let a BPD harpy ruin his life for 20 years instead of growing a spine and leaving. You’ve made it abundantly clear throughout this thread that you don’t grasp what you’ve read in the ‘sphere. Here, let me make this simple for you since you need shit spelled out for you: http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/19/the-cardinal-rule-of-relationships/ “In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.” A man who has spent his life internalizing LTR-as-goal is going to suffer from oneitis and as a consequence surrender… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

Cyfox….

Uh…..you’re missing everything. Kill the beta…..don’t live the life of a betard. You will regret it. You already suspect what you’ve been dreaming is fucked up or you wouldn’t be reading this and asking questions. It doesn’t pay the dividends you’ve been conditioned to expect. Stick with your real gut, not what seems wonderous.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Oh the patronizing is just deafening. You guys are plenty full of yourselves. You act like this shit is rocket science or something. It’s not. You also act like it can be applied in black and white in the real world. Nothing could be more false. I have one response for both you and rollo. KIDS. a) Fatherhood is a very worthy ambition b) Guess what? It requires the participation of a woman c) Harpy ruined my life? Are you kidding me? She gave me 3 beautiful children, cupcake. Two strapping sons. You got any of those? Didn’t think so.… Read more »

redlight
redlight
9 years ago

Sadly TuffLuv won this, y’all been shamed as chickenshits who didn’t man up to have kids, hookingupwrong

get those aprons out boys

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@tuff, First off my vote is that you are a troll and likely a reincarnation of a past troll. However giving you the benefit of doubt here are some questions for you. You have three children, you claim. How are you involved in their lives and the decisions about their lives now that your wife cuckolded you and left you for a new replacement father for them kids? You paying spousal support? Joint or sole legal custody? Joint or sole physical custody? How you liking that child support that has replaced your actual participation as a father? Men cannot be… Read more »

cyfox
cyfox
9 years ago

@TuffLuv What I am learning here, is that the LTR should never be your life goal. I think you are missing that point. Even if you choose to be in an LTR and have kids, your mindset should not be on the LTR with your partner, it should be that you are having kids, and that you have a purpose outside of this sphere.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Well, I was gonna cut out for a while, but since y’all love to challenge me.. my answers are forthcoming.

Badpainter
Badpainter
9 years ago

Still I think TuffLuv is woman masquerading as a stoic blue pill man.

But kudos to shim for the highly effective distraction, clearly an industrious journeyman troll striking for master.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv I will now point out how piss poor you are at comprehension and how hopelessly owned by the FI you are: You guys are plenty full of yourselves. You, on the other hand, are a paragon of self-restraint. You act like this shit is rocket science or something. It’s not. We agree here. It’s not. However, you fail to be able to apply it in a logical fashion as simple as it is. That speaks volumes about you. You also act like it can be applied in black and white in the real world. I never said or implied… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Where to begin? Rollo.. I didn’t say it does make you a winner. But there are many young men in the sphere who are searching for the answer to the question, no? How do I have that? or, what’s the right way to go about it? It’d be a shame if they concluded the only way to win the game is to never play. If men give up on procreation, the war is already lost.

@Strings

have already read that, and will get back to you shortly.

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@Rollo,

There are so many harsh truths to accept when taking that pill. One of them I had to accept was that my marriage could have succeeded had I gone in with the mindset that I was going to cheat on my wife. And then proceeded to do so.

I mean nobody tells men that cheating on your wife can make you far more attractive then being the doting BP husband I was conditioned to be. Hell I would have been more attractive just being the raging psychopath she tells her new friends that I was.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@rollo “I wonder if Tuff would have the same disposition if his wife had left him earlier, kicked him out of his own home, kept his kids and brought the player into their bed?” I am partially in that position. Not the player but some other chump, with my daughter. My disposition is my disposition, and it is on display here. There are things we can and can’t control. Fortunately, I have the means to remain in her life, and intend to fight tooth and nail to maximize that ability. Shall I just sit in a corner and cry? “@Tuff,… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@StringsofCoins

Hell I would have been more attractive just being the raging psychopath she tells her new friends that I was.

You know when guys tell their friends stories about who had the most psycho bitch in their past, it’s typically just oneupmanship about who’s been through the worst. I just realized with how you phrased it that women doing it are actually humblebragging about their failed relationships.

“Well he wasn’t totally Alpha, but he was at least Alpha enough to be psycho!” and the girls all approve partially of her taste in men.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@strings “How you liking that child support that has replaced your actual participation as a father?” And to answer a couple other similar queries in one shot.. My oldest (son) is 19 and a freshman in college. Next is 16 1/2 (son) and a junior in HS. Then my daughter (7). This is where I’m luckier than most. First of all, psychologically, my sons have all but escaped. They are right there eye to eye with me. They will never be stolen from me, never be re-fathered.. they are mine, and they are fast becoming men. My daughter is a… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

Don’t live like Betard. ANY woman is replaceable. They burn out relatively fast. They are each somewhat unique but expendable. It is easy to see this if you reflect honestly on how many different women you have wanted to bang. Betard cannot accept this reality because this reality threatens what Betard identifies with, it threatens his self identity. One at a time, multiple women typically slip into the role of “sole mate” in Betards mind. Betard pursues individual women sequentially with the same futile hope of fulfilling Betards LTR fantasy. The first few attempts should be enough red pill for… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

The guy my wife (yes she’s still my wife), is now engaged to, is a decent guy.

Hahahaha, hoo boy.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@rollo “How much of the reason do you think Tuff’s wife left him had to do with his noble, steadfast dedication to their marriage?” It had a lot to do with it. She knew I’d never give up, and yes that gave her power over me. She has always used the kids against me to some degree. Seriously, I understood the concept of “cheat or be cheated on”, after the first few bitches fucked me over back in high school. I just never had the disposition for it. Yes, I’ve always been a pussy in that regard, but I won’t… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

I’m going to predict there’s an incoming condescending “You won’t understand till you have your own” coming from TuffLuv to me.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Sun Much transpired before she met this guy. And we were legally divorced at the time. The reason that is no longer true, is that she appealed and won, and decide to do the whole drag me through the mud thing. No, it was not his suggestion. It’s a little histrionic bitch lawyer, and her miserable divorcee friends who provoked that action. He just wants to marry her. He’s established, financially stable, etc.. I’m not saying he’s an angle, just that things could be a lot worse. We have met over beers multiple times, had conflicts multiple times, and I’ve… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

Besides, I get the pleasure of watching him escort her through her post-wall, menapausal, old age phases.

Hahahaha, hoo boy.

Talk about a blessing in disguise.

Look, if you could pick the guy who’s gonna step in an become at least ‘some kind’ of father to your daughter.. All I’m saying is, he’s not too bad in that regard.

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell,
Blue sky’s from pain.
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?……..

Tilikum
9 years ago

@ Rollo re:tuff

I tried to wave him off…..they never listen.

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

Just the name “Tuff love” says it all.

Tilikum
9 years ago

@ TUFF

Dude. Sit, down, shut the fuck up and LISTEN to the men here who know you and your little special snowflake story better than you do…and you lived it.

The decisions have already been made for you and all we are doing is explaining them to you. Abandon all hope.

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

“Tuff love” = I’m pretending to myself that I’m a bad ass and a white knight simultaneously.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

Look, if you could pick the guy who’s gonna step in an become at least ‘some kind’ of father to your daughter

I refuse to put myself in the position of making that decision. This is part of what I meant when I talked about a BPD harpy making your life miserable. That’s a shitty decision to have to make at all. The only good answer is to not have to make that decision.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@rollo I ain’t trying to fuck y’all so save the beta jibes.. I’m going about things the best I can. Like a man. Your advice’s usefulness stops at “how to handle the next woman”. And believe me, I will use, and have used, much of it. Yes, ‘knocked up’, means pregnancy before marriage. Like I said, kids were not my ambition at the time, but they became my whole life. That, and damage control. I’m not evangelizing BP by saying holding a door for a woman can be an opener, and holding a door for all women is not a… Read more »

Jack LeBear
Jack LeBear
9 years ago

@StringsofCoins

You don’t need to join the cult yourself.

I have a semi-unicorn Mormon woman who has a rural working class background and has never been exposed to leftism or feminism at a university.
We met in the unemployment office – no bucks needed.
It doesn’t matter that my world view doesn’t include any elements of the supernatural. She appreciates me as I am (as much as is possible for a woman ;-).
Yes, TRP is a prerequisite for managing a relationship with any woman.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Sun

“The only good answer is to not have to make that decision.”

Then the war is already lost. They’ve won. You lose. IMO, that’s sad.

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv

Attempt to shame with FI “man up” directive again.

Failure to comprehend that what I meant was that I won’t settle for the kind of woman or relationship that leads to that decision down the road.

Look dude, spit up or shit out the Blue Pill already.

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

Four guys have been going to the same golfing trip to St Andrews for many years . . Two days before the group is to leave, Jack’s wife puts her foot down and tells him he isn’t going. Jack’s mates are very upset that he can’t go, but what can they do? Two days later, the three get to St Andrews only to find Jack sitting at the bar with four drinks set up! “Wow, Jack, how long you been here, and how did you talk your miss us into letting you go ?” “Well, I’ve been here since last… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Tilikum “Abandon all hope.” This seems to nicely sum up the best actual “advice” that can be offered from the posters on this site, to me, and to the young men in this world trying to find answers. Wonderful. Guys, I’m doing and controlling everything I can. I’m defying all things I can. I’m fighting as hard as I can. When one of you has an actual “practical” suggestion, I’m listening. Kill her? Kill him? Sure, I’d love to. Pull out all my money and head for the hills? Yep thought about it. Quit my job and cross my arms… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@Not Born

Haha, nice!

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

How much of the dreams and ambitions of your 20s and 30s have you been held back from thanks to that dedication, investment, support and commitment to “seeing it through” for almost 20 years? Many Did you think she’d eventually recognize the equity you thought you had all this time? Yes Do you think maybe in hindsight your Blue Pill heroism and chivalrous intentions were actually the cause of your situation now? Not entirely, but partially, yes. Yet you still want to advise these guys to risk it all, “fuck it, just marry her” ? Yes, I do. Just like… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

Symbolism,tuff. Shit testing you is male tribal ritual. You are being tested. Are you good enough to be part of the group that is the comments section of Rollo’s blog. A shit test by a woman or a man needs an unemotional Alpha response in order to pass the test. You must open a door for a woman is a symbolic for “you have to be Blue Pill”. I see Rollo had some hint of doubt that your ex really was Borderline rather that she was just an Alpha Widow and you descended into Betatude. Was she a raving BPD?… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@sun

” the kind of woman ”

So.. NAWALT?

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv How about this: It’s the bed you made and you gotta lie in it. Get through it by being as cut throat with the harpy as you can while hanging on to everything you can. In the end every man wipes his own ass. But don’t try to pass off your internal rationalizations of your poor decisions as good advice to guys here. That’s what our real issue is. Your advice thus far has been shit that my mom would have told me. Bad Blue Pill “twue wuv” idealism. Yeah, I haven’t been through what you’ve been through but… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

Tuff..

Think of the hope being abandoned. It is a false hope of somthing unreal. Better to spend energy on things real and not dependent on a woman. This does not mean being a sociopath. It just means realizing personal power and personal value. You live and control your life rather than being controlled by false hope.

Jeremy
9 years ago

@TuffLuv Ignoring for a moment that you completely ignored my last reply to you, and in doing so essentially conceded that you were wrong… You act like this shit is rocket science or something. It’s not. You also act like it can be applied in black and white in the real world. Nothing could be more false. As someone who practices rocket science and still finds Rollo’s work fascinating, it’s more than somewhat insulting to have it implied that this stuff isn’t worth intellectual rigor. You are free to patronize Jezebel with your nonsense if you don’t like the thought… Read more »

Sun Wukong
9 years ago

@TuffLuv the kind of woman or relationship Comprehension, motherfucker. You’re still not doing it. We spend a bunch of time discussing your BPD ex, and as I’m sure everyone here agrees NAWALT in particular. They’re all hypergamous. They’re all going to shit test. They’re NOT all BPD. Comprehension. Try it. I’m tired of repeating myself. Additionally, I acknowledge that it’s not entirely the woman. It’s also partially the relationship itself which depends on the frame I set. Until I feel confident that I can set and maintain that frame AND I have vetted the woman I am considering for as… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

TuffLuv
February 26th, 2015 at 5:32 pm
The comments you just made are proof positive you have not read a significant portion of The Rational Male and the last three years of blog essays.

You just showed up to loiter. Rollo has said time and time again that he can’t and won’t give individual advice. BECAUSE IT CAN’T POSSIBLY WORK for persons like you.

“When one of you has an actual “practical” suggestion, I’m listening.
Kill her? Kill him? Sure, I’d love to.”

KILL YOUR OWN F**KING BETA ***dammit!

Not Born This Morning
9 years ago

Sometimes the only successful “fighting” strategy is simply to let go of false hopes and expectations. It is like the story of Hercules and the snake, two heads replace each head he cuts off. Realize the fallacy for what it is and walk away from it.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@sj “Was she a raving BPD? I would still contend you can’t keep Frame at all with a BPD chick.” She is a histrionic waif, a master projectionist, a master gas-lighter, and in the last 5 years totally hyper-sexual. She was severely neglected as a young child. Emotionally abused. Alcoholic mother. And severely Alienated from her father by that mother (full on lies about him). He was absent from age 5. She has full blown PAS, as she still has no real bond with the man even after learning the truth. All of this I knew from year 1. But… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

Next thing is I expect tuff to tell us that Jack Daniels is the best bourbon out there these days. It’s the best. You have drunk hundreds of whiskeys all over the world and its the best. Gotta Be because that’s what Frank Sinatra drank. …………………..As you drink it with Coke.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Sun “It’s the bed you made and you gotta lie in it. Get through it by being as cut throat with the harpy as you can while hanging on to everything you can. In the end every man wipes his own ass. But don’t try to pass off your internal rationalizations of your poor decisions as good advice to guys here. That’s what our real issue is.” Thanks man. Makes sense. I just hate to see young men throw their hands up entirely. Of course TRP will make any logical man gun shy. It would be nice to have a… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

@Tuff

What you are looking for here, no one can tell you. You gave up your personal ambitions and passions and replaced them with investing all of yourself in your 20 year BP marriage.

Now that you are being kicked out of the very thing you poured your soul into, you are in a lost place. Trying to justify what you did during that time as “correct”.

You are now effectively a blank slate, you have no ambition, no passion, nothing to do in life anymore. As hard as that is the comprehend, but its the harsh truth.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

@Sun

“Additionally, I acknowledge that it’s not entirely the woman. It’s also partially the relationship itself which depends on the frame I set. Until I feel confident that I can set and maintain that frame AND I have vetted the woman I am considering for as many critical flaws as I can eliminate, diving in to an LTR involving children is the shittiest gamble I could ever take as you’re finding out.”

This is much, much better than “Abandon all hope”

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

Fixed it for you Tuff:

“Of course TRP will make any il-logical man gun shy.”

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

“So, how did all that chivalry go over with her?”

An unproductive prerequisite, I’ll admit. But I will also say, I was less ‘courteous’ with her on average than a common stranger.. cuz she was a bitch about it..

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

Back to the OP, a great BP song that ties in with the “Invisibles”.

And I don’t want the world to see me
‘Cause I don’t think that they’d understand
When everything’s made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

Got to say, as much BP as the video I posted is, that song as a soundtrack to the movie it was produced for is like BP genius, BP art in its truest form.

Bromeo
Bromeo
9 years ago

And watching it with a RP lens, I greatly appreciated it for what it is. Men, even in a BP idealistic world using their passion to create some really great shit.

Nathan
Nathan
9 years ago

“Everybody falls on their first jump”

wise words.

I know we are trying to convert Tuff,

anyone care to comment on my earlier question about the irrational and quantum mechanics?

Book ETA Rollo?

StringsofCoins
9 years ago

@tuff, Eh ultimately I’m sorry that everyone is here, you as well. Make the best life you can moving ahead, kill your ego and replace your beliefs with better and more comprehensive ones, and find some young chicks to screw for awhile until that gets old. There really isn’t that much else to do involving women. Find some great hobbies and master them. Training my dog is one of mine. Dogs are far more loyal then hos, though considerably less attractive. Create something. Erase everything about that bitch from your life. Everything. Even change her name on your phone. Eliminate… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

Tuff,
I would find a 28 year old Epiphany phase BPD chick, get her pregnant and have some great sex and dump her 12 months later.

Heh heh. It will be great while it lasts.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
9 years ago

Sorry, I kid.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
9 years ago

LMAO.. Thanks all.

No apologies necessary.

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