The Invisibles

invisibles

Forge the Sky:

The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.

But women have different relationships with them. To women, betas are friends, helpers, co-workers, employees, servants; unless related by blood, they are practical beings only. There is no romance to them. They are useful, fun, maybe even someone to be a little affectionate toward so long as they remain useful, but they have no deeper self, no soul, no mystical thing to bind to.

Alphas are something else entirely. They are actually people – people drenched with desire, romance, spirit. Him, she can respect. In greater cases even worship. It matters little how well he performs objectively, so long as he does nothing to make her doubt her assessment of him as alpha. If he does perform, she admires and praises his performance – but she’s doing that about something or another regardless, even if she’s gushing about how he bought her a bag of skittles.

No woman will stand beside a beta as he faces, and succumbs to, death. Not unless it’s convenient, or she would be shamed otherwise. It simply would not make sense for her to do so. Would you hold your employee’s hand as they lay dying? Only if they had a fatal accident right in front of you. Past that, condolences to the kids.

Men see two genders. Men and women. Better and worse, more and less attractive, but no fundamental difference. Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women. And so we try to improve our beta game, instead of flipping the script.

The blue pill is miserable because it is learned helplessness. From within, it is the cracking of an invisible whip, punishment meted capriciously and without time or reason. There is no pattern or method to the blue pill man’s pain.

FTS must’ve been reading my mind this week because his comment made a perfect segue into what I’ve been developing this week. The most salient part of this comment, I thought, was “Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women.”

This was a good observation because there are intrinsic parts of the male psychological firmware that the Feminine Imperative picked up on long ago and deliberately co-opts to better aid in optimizing women’s control of Hypergamy.

From the utility-need side of Hypergamy, this mostly manifests in various forms of serviceable security. The Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy can be distilled to a need for security, protection, and a certainty that a woman and her offspring will be insured against any uncertainty. Every psychological and sociological dynamic that contributes to feminine-primacy keys on this need for existential certainty. The War Brides dynamic, the evolution from old-order chivalry to modern feminism, and now the social / legal handicapping of men to ensure that feminine-security certainty above all other considerations are all manifestations of this need.

The Feminine Imperative learned long ago that men’s innate protectorate instinct for the feminine was its second most valuable means of masculine control – the first being men’s ‘always on’ sexual impetus. Thus pairing the two as a means of control is a simple deductive proposition for the imperative. The rudimentary connection being, “protect the woman and I get sex.”

This is the unspoken exchange that’s part of our evolutionary past. Men are nothing if not deductive (yet creative) problem solvers, and women have used this to their hypergamous advantage since our hunter-gatherer beginnings.

This is what confounds modern men under the auspices of our present feminine-primary social order. We’re emphatically told that women “never owe men sex“, yet the latent message is, and has always been, “but, if you perform to her satisfaction, she might be more inclined to give you sex.” Carrot to pull the cart, I know, but this mental algorithm is a sociological buffer for women – exclude the sexually unworthy, but leave an acceptable caveat in order to leverage the possibility of sex with those who are still useful in providing security.

Bear this in mind the next time you read a story about a savior White Knight who was beaten to a bloody pulp for his effort to protect a woman from the “predations” of some Alpha(s) she likely wants to bang anyway. Men will project, by default, our own gender interpretation onto women, and sometimes pay the price for it. Betas believe the feminine-primary, equalist advertising that men and women are functional equals while still force fitting an expected, old-order, male-protectionism (completely based on an unequal state presumption) into that belief – often at their own expense.

Invisible Men

While I disagree that there are no distinct physical and cultural markers that women use (sometimes subconsciously) to distinguish Alpha men from the bulk of Beta men, I strongly agree with the distinction and characterization Forge the Sky makes with how women regard Beta men.

The vast majority of men are sexually invisible to women, but all males are visible in terms of their utility to women and the role those men are expected to play in deference to women’s solipsism.

There’s an important difference in that visibility with respect to men and women we need to consider.

I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. That may be the case, particularly for mature women convinced they should be sexually viable into their 50s, however, those women’s functional utility is never an issue for men. Neither is it an article of attraction for a man. As much as a feminine-centric culture would like to convince women of the opposite, men simply don’t factor a woman’s provisional utility into their attraction equation.

Invisible men never become visible to women until either those men intrude on a woman’s’ awareness or she has a specific utilitarian need of him. At this point, whether due to arousal / attraction awareness or her specific need (usually protection or security insurance), that man must perform to prove his maleness. He must qualify for her visual acknowledgment of him.

Over prolonged periods, this invisibility, and the fear of having his insistence rejected, can influence men’s overall perception of women and their intergender interpretations. Invisible men tend to confuse a woman’s utility interests in him as genuine indicators of interest (IOIs). The Feminine Imperative prepares for this ‘mixed message’ with a constant, self-perpetuating social narrative that tells the invisible men they are never, under any circumstance, owed a woman’s intimacy – it is always a gift, a reward, for her approval.

Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman.

Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.

If we consider the 80 / 20 rule of the sexual marketplace and figure that 80% of Beta men are sexually invisible to women we get a broader perspective of how the gender landscape has evolved in an era where women’s security-side needs are planned for and met with a relative degree of certainty.

I had a teenage kid I used to consult who related this story about how one of his nerdy friends had somehow spontaneously generated the interest of a girl who was an obvious two points above his SMV. His initial frustration was one of wonderment about how this guy could be ‘dating’ so hot a girl while he wasn’t bumping the needle with even the girls he thought were a point below himself.

His nerdy friend assumed the predictable self-righteous Beta position that some “special” girls just understand and appreciate guys like him in favor of the brutish jocks “society tells them they should like.” All this came two weeks before that year’s homecoming dance (and after-party), where she promptly left him to go dance and party with her girlfriends and their jock guy-friends for the rest of the evening.

This kid had served his utilitarian purpose of fronting the money for the evening, a limo, corsage, photos (of their group) and the bit of risky underage liquor he could manage. In spite of all that he still refused to make the connection of his being used for her purpose. Invisibles feel validated in their own manipulation because that utility made them visible (“do my homework nerd”) even if just momentarily. As bad as that extortion was, that brief moment of visibility implies the prospect that another woman in the future (a really special one) will also appreciate his utility and reward it with her intimacy.

Needless to say, this visibility differential becomes an internalized factor in men’s approach to women. There are ways an invisible man can make himself visible; all require effort and risk. As I stated before, a man remains invisible unless his physical presence and arousal prompts make him unignorable, his performance is outstanding enough to draw attention or he simply asserts his visibility towards that woman. Physical bearing and performance recognition being the Alpha Fucks side of the Hypergamy equation is an easy follow, but a man asserting himself and his personality is where the Red Pill and applied Game come into play. This prospect will always imply risk of rejection until such a time that an Invisible’s confidence supersedes his self-image as an invisible.

We had a long discussion in the last thread about the mindset of the MGTOW contingent of the manosphere and the sentiment of men wishing to remove themselves wholesale from the sexual marketplace. I understand this sentiment and I know men, like Advocatus Diaboli, who have legitimately recused themselves from the SMP, but it seems to me this want is the result of having been invisible to women for so long. They get to a point where they become invisible by choice.

The Third Sex

I can’t finish this essay without drawing attention to FTS’s first observation:

The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.

After I’d reconsidered this I had to dig out my copy of Plato’s Symposium and pore through it to read the part where Aristophanes proposed that there were, in fact, three sexes (in primal times) that their all-male discussion collective ought to consider:

 There were three sexes: the all male, the all female, and the “androgynous,” who was half male, half female. The males were said to have descended from the sun, the females from the earth and the androgynous couples from the moon.

A lot is being made of transgenderism recently and the fluidity with which people want to arbitrarily “gender-identify” borders on the ridiculous, but FTS’s observation has more implications than I think most are aware of. I’m sorry to go all philosophus on you, but I can definitely see parallels with the symbolism Aristophanes suggests and the female perceptions of the division of maleness FTS brings out here. Although Aristophanes would say that these primal beings split into gays, lesbians and heterosexual beings, I’d suggest that this primal awareness stems from a male understanding of the division of Alpha and Beta men and how women perceive them, visibly and non-visibly.

I covered this a while back in Queens, Workers & Drones:

Selective Breeding

So powerful is this sense of entitlement, so consuming and convinced of the correctness of their purpose is the feminine that women will literally breed and raise generations of men to better satisfy it. Hypergamy is cruel, but nowhere more so than in the relationship between a mother overtly raising and conditioning a son to be a better servant of the feminine imperative.

But to breed a better worker, the feminine imperative’s queens can’t afford to have any corrupting, masculine, outside influence. On a societal scale this might mean removal (either by disincentives or forcibly) of a father from the family unit, but this is the easy, extreme illustration. There are far more subtle social and psychological means that the imperative uses to effect this filtering – via mass media, social doctrines, appeals to (feminized) morality, the feminine is placed as the correct imperative while the masculine is filtered out or apologetically tolerated as vestiges of an immature and crude reminder of masculinity’s incorrectness.

Yet for all of this social engineering Hypergamy still demands satisfaction of women’s most base imperative, Alpha seed. The queens need physically / psychologically dominant drones – if just for a season and at their ovulatory pleasure. While beta workers are endlessly vetted in sisyphean tasks of qualifying for the acceptance of the feminine imperative, the Alpha drones live outside this shell; their qualifications only based on how well they satisfy the feminine’s visceral side of  hypergamy.

The great irony of this social solution to hypergamy and long term parental investment is that the vast majority of the offspring of this arrangement would be raised to be better workers. Those betas-to-be boys must be insulated from the corrupting influence of the drones lest they devolve into the Alphas they crave yet cannot control. It may seem counterintuitive, to raise what should ostensibly be optimized genetic stock as a cowed, sometimes medically restrained, feminized beta males. However it is through this harsh conditioning that truly dominant Alphas must rise above. Essentially the genetic lottery isn’t won by women in such a social environment – it’s men, or the ones who rise above in spite of the conditioning efforts of the feminine imperative.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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The Diplomat
The Diplomat
8 years ago

@Tuff

Not all women are BPD—a term that seems to get thrown around a lot by wounded guys still in BP culpability denial. I know, because I used to be one (probably still am, on occasion).

But yes, best strategy is to assume full spectrum AWALT at all times.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@TuffLuv

What you don’t realize is that the statistical likelihood of meeting the woman worth an LTR commitment is almost nil. This is where the “Abandon all hope” attitude about LTR comes from in the sphere, and I subscribe to it. It’s required to keep yourself safe and keep tour expectations realistic enough to avoid predictable mistakes that a lot of what you’ve advised will inevitably lead to. It’s why we talk about “unicorns”; it’s shorthand for the statistically unlikely woman worth commitment.

Abandon all hope, but make sure to understand why you do.

Jeremy
Jeremy
8 years ago

Hope is a disease. If you’re hoping for something, you’re not taking positive action to make it happen. We shouldn’t so much be abandoning hope as we should be burning its forests, and salting its earth. Hope is the fallback buffer behavior of betas… positive action towards ones own goals should be the order of every day.

kobayashii1681
8 years ago

“Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman. Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.” Mm-mmm-mmm! take that to the bank… I think this is one of the things… Read more »

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
8 years ago

Upthread someone wrote: “The low value ones, which are most of them, will bring many forms of ruin to your life if you don’t guard against it.” I would LOVE a future post on this Rolllo — How to Guard against it — in the past 6 months during my transition from blue-pill to red-pill this has happened to me TWICE and cost me $100k with probably more to come. In both cases the modus operandi has been: 1) notice a change in my appearance / attitude 2) Invade my privacy 3) undermine my reputation and relationships. My advice to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PkcfQtibmU

Some reason this has been in my head as I’ve learned about TRP. Video references Falling Down, which was a movie that was actually a really spectacular commentary about being marginalized as a man (definitely one of the Invisibles) in modern society.

StringsofCoins
8 years ago

I like sharing a story of one of the most beta faggots I have ever met. Met him around six months ago. This guy, former NFL linebacker, starts working with me. Huge guy and very good in a fight. But he is on the phone with some harpy screeching at him all day long. He’ll go hide to take her abusive phone calls. Over the past six months they have broken up and gotten back together so many times that I can no longer keep track. It turns out that this guy, twice divorced, met himself a semi attractive post… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@StringsofCoins

Christ, even at my worst I was never that bad.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
8 years ago

“What you don’t realize is that the statistical likelihood of meeting the woman worth an LTR commitment is almost nil.” Myself and friends that have or recently had woman worth an LTR. Don’t want to lose them. I got with a BPD chick in 1985 and exited on time to have no damage done. I went with a nurse in 1987 and after initiating a relationship, she had her first psychotic break while I was dating her. (BPD chicks are better than sweet psychotic girls because you don’t feel as guilty having sex with them.)Still no harm done. Made a… Read more »

Jack LeBear
Jack LeBear
8 years ago

Comfort tests. Thanks for the reminder that there is an RP term for it. Since we agree that women ideally want both AF and BB in the same man, it follows that some amount of offering C3SP (comfort companionship cuddling security provision) is optimum, at least for LTR, and perhaps for most boomer women or those with a sensitive temperament. . Of course the C3SP must be offered from a position of strength and authority, not as supplication, pedestalizing or attempting to negotiate desire or build relational equity. Having said that, I also had the impression that TuffLove was a… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
8 years ago

Athol Kay had a great essay on comfort rather than shit (fitness) tests. But since he has gone all retailing on us I find it difficult to navigate his blog to link to it. Blue Pill Professor on reddit says simply: ” The trick is that a comfort test IS a Shit Test. It is just a more insidious type of Shit Test that requires a different response. A Shit test is delivered in a sharp, demanding or unpleasant tone. It is mostly unconscious and she will throw them when she is unsure about you or the relationship to “test”… Read more »

Tilikum
8 years ago

….and yet we wax on and on about what women want. And on, and on, and on. May your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

You know someone is selling you BP when they use “man up” tactics. They can’t sell you the benefit of what they are telling you to do- or of what they chose, so they reach deep into the “man up” well to get you to take a bad deal. So it goes with Tuff. He’s not telling us how great marriage would be, how great a deal it is, just the opposite, everything he says shows us how shitty an arrangement he had. So to rationalize it he needs to see it as some masculine badge of honor- and he… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
8 years ago

@Bromeo

“When everything’s made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am”….

THAT’S not great music. It is the melancholy whimpering of beta wussy stuck wallowing in a chronic state of blue pill blue ball yearning. So so so sad. Self pity bringith no pussy.

This is great music….

http://www.acdc.com/us/video/shoot-thrill-iron-man-2-album

Not Born This Morning
8 years ago

Want to create seriously maximum dread?

Go home to,her with the smell of some other woman’s pussy on your fingers. You don’t have to say a fucking word.

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
8 years ago

The ‘invisibles’ aka nice guys are a vestige and legacy of monogamy culture programming, that frame used to work (under a scarcity economic ecology) but under serial polygyny culture it is no longer desired by women. Women hate nice guys because they hate monogamy, every slur that is placed at the feet of nice guys is in reality a slur on monogamy culture, boring, unexciting, plain, suffocating, unsexy, predictable, monotonous, hard work, lack of freedom etc. Nice guys are the mirror of monogamy culture (hard working, dutiful, family orientated, predictable, prudent, reliable, responsible, honourable) and women hate them for it.… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

@johnycomelately- What an awesome post. Lots to think and chew on there. Never saw it that way but so obvious now.
Thanks!

Badpainter
8 years ago

@ Hobbes When faced with advice, and exhortations such as TuffLuv has provided I find myself insisting the advisor explain what’s in it for me. With only a few exceptions are the benefits I can EXPECT to receive ever even alluded to. Usually when benefits are described they are caveated so I can expect to not actually receive them, because “there are no guarantees.” And yet the costs and risks are obvious and never disputed. Even while intoxicated by the blue pill I failed to be persuaded, much less motivated, by this sort of arguement. Further this “man up” style… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

@BP- As always, perfectly stated. My thoughts exactly and its exactly what runs through my head every time as well. Like you, even in my most BP days I didn’t take the bait- fuck if I will now.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@bp “What I think is most bothersome is the implication that my wants, and needs, are always without exception deemed secondary or tertiary considerations to dealt with at some undefined point in the future.” Nail head? Meet hammer. This is exactly the thought that tipped me from Blue to Red Pill. Everything was always supposed to be about everyone else all the time. My whole life, people had called me selfish right before they made their selfish demands. I had changed a lot, gotten a lot of Red Pill knowledge through plain old experience, but finally getting why I should… Read more »

447
447
8 years ago

“@447 “Before I could even ponder on this ultra-cliche-like situation, the moment had passed and I drove on without slowing down.” That was a pretty bad story… I was waiting for you to stop, game her and smash her in the rain. If you don’t, someone else will. It’s like you screwed yourself over from a lay just because of principle in thinking your somehow above and better than the FI.” I can see where youcome from – legit. The way I see it is very simple: My sexual suppply is (fot the time being) secure. There is another thing:… Read more »

447
447
8 years ago

“See, you have it all wrong- it’s not that men need to man up, women need to “woman up” and make themselves people worthy of investment and provisioning.”

I second that – strongly.
The rest is just meat with a value of zero / neutral entitiy.

SFC Ton
8 years ago

Can the alpha markers be faked…… I reckon not to any real degree based on some of the self declared “success” rates of PUA’s. I don’t mean to imply Game doesn’t work or what not but it’s a matter of degrees. Would be interesting to take a guy, average guy, average build etc, use some temporary tattoos, dress him up in leathers etc and have my crew defer to him in public, say a typical sports bar and see how he does with the gashes. Think about it for a second…. would it give him bad boy cred? Status as… Read more »

melmoth
melmoth
8 years ago

@Tilikum, Ha ha. Nice one. There is a huge gray area in the whole RP/Manosphere isn’t there? You have tread very carefully to avoid cancelling yourself out. Alphas vs. guys learning to be alphas to win female approval. It’s like coral snakes and king snakes. There should be an acronym or some recognizable phrase for slip-ups like these; “If only I’d spun plates during our marriage, I would still be with her” “If only I hadn’t pedestalized her, she wouldn’t have left me…” “If you downplay the importance of women in your life, they will come running!” Even my own… Read more »

SFC Ton
8 years ago

Never knew I was in an identity crisses Titkum. How could I have not known that these last 26 years…. How did any of the hundreds of grunts and tiered guys I work with not know this…..

You project like a woman.

Hold the door open to set the tone…. WTF? How about say you’ll burn her place of business to the ground in her advice proves unsat, notice her shy smile/ look away and pulling her number/ banging her after you threaten to destroy her livelihood? No thanks to the door holding thing.

SFC Ton
8 years ago

There is no topic I have not yet covered….Rollo

LOL best comment of the thread

You are failing at life in a grand way if you are a man and need a therapist. Get pissed, really fucking pissed and use that drive/anger etc to make yourself better. You have to make that decision on your own. Sure a man can give you pointers but the drive is internal and it is a decision only a man can make.

That isn’t a slam on any man here, but vote of confidence

Tilikum
8 years ago

@ SFC Ton

Lol. Your ego investment in your identity (laid bare here for all to see) merely makes you a target for a player. Your mind is weak, son. If I was you I’d read Roosh’s three pillars, and flush the gung ho right into the burn barrel.

You (claim) you fought another mans fights for honor. Yay. YaReally still gonna destroy your ranking with your girl in 45 seconds and TYB. (Take your bitch. I didn’t say me because I didn’t wanna seem self serving, haha)

Your self-invested identity IS your new prison, slave.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@melmoth & Tilikum Even if LTR-as-goal is eliminated, I think there’s a couple reasons the ‘sphere covers how to get laid. First, there’s something that brings a guy here, and it’s almost always the fact that he’s either not getting laid or not getting laid the way he wants to. Whether just to be a player, or to have children, the guy needs to know what the hell went wrong. Showing him what he should have done throws his mistakes in to sharp relief. Second, it’s to throw the initial carrot out there to encourage a man to become Alpha.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@SFC Ton You are failing at life in a grand way if you are a man and need a therapist I would strongly disagree in the case of genuine mental illness, which I personally suffer from. That’s like saying “You’re failing at life in a grand way if you are a man and need a doctor to set your broken bones”. No, sometimes you do need a professional in a matter to deal with it. Paranoid delusionals, schizophrenics, MPD, or most commonly bipolar/manic depression are actual illnesses. In my case, it’s clinically diagnosed manic depression. Yes, you can medicate it,… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

I thought counseling was for losers, until I bit the bullet. It saved my marriage when we fell apart after 10 years. It really did, and it put us back on a solid course, hence my daughter..

Won’t go into details because we’ve talked enough about me.. but don’t knock it till you’ve been there. Most important is finding the RIGHT counselor or clinician. We tried a few, and the first two were like.. y’all should just divorce.. I seriously, no shit, almost knocked the motherfucker out.. and I refused to, and never did pay him.

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

@Tuff- stop, lol. just stop. It’s just too fucking funny…
Lord, did you guys catch that? lol
BTW, it’s not that I disagree with therapy- I’m all in Suns camp here. SFC is really just brandishing off the shelf, easy bake manhood bullshit about therapy. Therapy can help many men with many issues done correctly and if you can avoid the FI infested therapists.

Softek
Softek
8 years ago

Learning some trades over the years has helped my self-respect a lot. It took a while but I’m finally starting to come around. I’ve found a lot of people will try to take advantage of me. I’m very good at the things I do, and a lot of times people’ll try to weasel their way into getting free work from me. I always respond with something like, “Sure, I’d be happy to help you. You can drop tomorrow. Bring the piece with you, and I’ll give you a price estimate.” Or if someone wants to do a session online, I… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Hang in there @sun and hey.. you know something that helped a lot with that 6 months of therapy we did, and maybe this can be translated to your situation.. First time we went in, I stopped my wife on the sidewalk outside.. told her, let’s agree, no matter what happens in here, every time we exit we stop right here and kiss like we did that first night we met, no matter what. She agreed and it really worked. We were ruthless in that room, but we never fought afterwards, NEVER. Did a lot of fuckin though. The point… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Next 10 years was a rather long time @hobbes.. Again, don’t wish to elaborate.. Yes, it only temporarily saved my marriage.. She tried to get me in there again 9 years later and I told her to fuck off.. so..

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@TuffLuv Hahaha, I’m with Hobbes here. Stop, bro. Just stop hahahaha… Look I’m all for individual therapy, but marriage therapy is a completely different bag. That shit is most definitely a waste of time in pretty much all cases. It almost always boils down to negotiation of desire. Desire can’t be negotiated. http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/ If one or the other (or maybe even both) people are suffering from psychological illness, they should go individually absolutely. But going to therapy for anyone other than yourself (which in marriage therapy you’re doing) is not going to work. It’s not about fixing problems. It’s about… Read more »

anon
anon
8 years ago

Tons of great comments on this thread. Like this one: ” He simply thinks there is no psychological component to arousal & attraction.” And if so he is wrong. I knew a couple guys in the college weight lifting club who were physically about as alpha as possible. They were real specimens of masculinity physically. But…they were total pussies when it came to women, shy, unsure of themselves, fell all over themselves to be blatantly nice to girls, holding doors, looking for excuses to be protective, “wore their hearts on their sleeves” and fell for girls with the slightest hint… Read more »

anon
anon
8 years ago

lol @ marriage therapy. The counselor will be 100% bought in and brainwashed (or, probably, one of the Tribe actively destroying families on purpose) by the FI, and it is nonstop male bashing, telling the husband to do more dishes (exact wrong thing to do), etc, and pushes her even further towards divorce. It is a total humiliation of the man to even be there. He is supposed to be the head of her, period, and she is supposed to obey. Try to say that in front of your feminist counselor, however, and she will literally call the police and… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@Rollo

Got to try snowmobiles once when I was on spring break in Creste Butte and loved it.I haven’t gotten to try them since, though. Definitely intend to do it again when I get the chance. Motorcycles will do just fine in the mean time.

Jeremy
Jeremy
8 years ago

FI invested therapists are the reason I don’t trust the entire industry. In a society where healthy masculinity is sooo derided, there’s no way in f-ing hell I would trust a “professional” with the thoughts in my head. In fact I did try once with your standard resident college student therapist and I felt like I was confessing to a janitor. It’s akin to having a slanted forehead, in a world where the entire profession of doctors believes in eugenics, and people seriously suggest you should go see a doctor. I’m sure thoughtful people will cringe at me saying this,… Read more »

anon
anon
8 years ago

dude why did I go into mod? my last comment was super on point and positive.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Your assessments are crap and they come from inexperience. The usefulness of it is very simple. It’s only a way to get things off the chest without it blowing up.. And when you make that point that your wife never listens to about whatever it is you need that you’re not getting, be it time with your bros, or less bitching or whatever, and that counselor backs you up.. the wife is 100% more receptive to it. And even if you feel her complaints about you are nonsense.. the environment makes her feel like she got it across to you… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

It’s not just that Tuff went to marriage therapy- it’s everything else is also a study in denial and rationalization. Two therapists tell him to divorce. Turns out they were right. Does he look back and say, “well, I’m glad I had my daughter, but they were right”? nope. He proudly states he wanted to manfully knock them out and then refuse to pay them. lol. Instead of accepting that his doomed marriage was so shitty that two people paid to profit by keeping them together said “fuck it”, he is instead happy for the one that kept in said… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

All you have to do is interview your counselor.. not that hard.

The one I found was old school, believed in patriarchy. sympathized with my plight, was 55 years old, and was a woman.

She was bad-fucking-ass. Period.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Hmmm sex with others, or my son’s very souls.. hmm lemme think about that.

Badpainter
8 years ago

TuffLuv – “…the wife is 100% more receptive to it. ”

100% of zero is still zero.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

First man who can tell the story of how he cut his losses and left, when his kids were at stake, and still young, and his wife was higher SMV, and the sex was good…

Let us know please.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

She did. My response was an exact reflection of what y’all have said. It was a direct shot at my manhood, and I felt like it was straight up wussification. She was obviously trying to get someone to tell me I’m wrong, it was a power play.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

True Rollo,, and you KNOW I get that.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

it was a power play…

So that’s why I took control and found a counselor I could depend on to make sure and balance things out.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Did it put me back on top completely? No.. but it quieted things down.. a lot.. And things got better. Was I beta-ized.. to some degree.. of course, but by and large it didn’t change much from my end, I now had a tool to use.. When she’d start working up, I’d say, let’s talk to Sheryl about it. simple as that.

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

Tuff- You don’t see your own spinelessness. Sorry, but the stench is strong. You keep holding your sons up as the reasons why you put up and stayed. It’s all bullshit rationalizations. Get this through your head 1. just as you fought to stay in a marriage to maintain contact with your sons, you could have fought to mantain contact and influence with your sons outside of the marriage. You chose to stay in FOR YOU. Stop hiding behind your sons 2. You teach kids by example- you taught your kids a bad example of a bad marriage and putting… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Gotta go… sorry for stirring it up again.

enough about me, eh?

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

Let me put it more simply
You allowed a woman to hold your children hostage and use sex to keep you where she wanted you as long as she wanted, and then were summarily dismissed as soon as she decided your utility was used up.

How manly is that, exactly?

Rude Awakening
Rude Awakening
8 years ago

Male “therapist” here. I don’t call myself a therapist (fucking hate the word) and I don’t call myself a social worker (wtf does that even mean) either. There are male therapist out there that embrace their masculinity, are active physically, and aren’t slaves to FI thinking. I work in a setting/profession dominated by women obviously but I bring a perspective to my patients that my female colleagues don’t/can’t. When they are running around yapping and all strung out and stressed im grounded and poised. They feed off my energy, body language and demeanor but I never feed off theirs. The… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@hobbes you’re dead wrong. 1. dead wrong. 2. my sons consistently watched me assert my place as a patriarch. yes, they witnessed extremely high levels of unhealthy conflict. but again, dead wrong. The one example I set firmly is don’t take shit from the bitch. again assume what you want. Leave and do it from the outside? wake up dude, think about that. Again, love to hear the story from the guy who chose that path. 3. meh, whatever 4. regrettably, where I am now I could not control. What happened 10 years ago I could, and did control. I… Read more »

Badpainter
8 years ago

TuffLuv – “I’m defending myself because y’all oversimplify a lot. ” No. You’re defending this narrative because you came here to shout we’re all doing it wrong and need to “man up” and embrace our inner beta. We called bullhit. You defend your original position by going into various narratives and distractions. The most recent distraction. The story of how you won your marriage except for the part at the end where you got fucked. Much like Seatle claiming they won Super Bowl except for that last minute. All of this serves ultimately to defend and support your original contention… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@TuffLuv No.. but it quieted things down.. a lot.. And things got better. Was I beta-ized.. to some degree.. of course Dude can you not see your own denial working here? Can you not see the hamster huffing and puffing on the wheel in those two quick sentences? You’ve got to be able to or you’re going to get nothing out of TRP. I mean that sincerely. You’re getting nothing out of this so long as you can’t see what’s happening there and really comprehend it. @Rude Awakening I feel like any therapist counseling men that doesn’t recognize modern feminism… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
8 years ago

@Rollo an badpainter- I understand him completely. As harsh as my comments may be, I get it, Got knows I surely do. Embarassingly so. What mazes me about the bitterness of RP truths, is that the truths are not even that hard to swallow. Once your resistance passes, at least for me, it’s like “why the hell did I fight it so much? Whats the big deal?” lol Its the destruction of all the rationalizations and lies, the regrets and the self image/ego investments. What hurts is not the Rep Pill, its the claws of the blue pill digging deeper… Read more »

David W
David W
8 years ago

Tomassi: “Marriage counseling sells hope to the hopeless, but it’s actually a prime mechanic of the Feminine Imperative.” I went to marriage counseling for about 3 months, and looking back, it is one of my worst mistakes. (I am still married btw, but I have a long road ahead of me to get to the red pill state I am aiming for.) My take on marriage counseling is that it is a situation where you are explicitly demonstrating that you DON’T “just get it,” and you are trying to negotiate for her desire. Walking in the door to a marriage… Read more »

kobayashii1681
8 years ago

@gregg –

“Women panic if BETA men go MGTOW. ”
Not if they (betas) are 80% of the population….

“Many Alpha men already are MGTOW – they fuck but do not give a fuck, they live their own lives for themsleves”

Alpha & MGTOW should not be conflated…They are not the same.

SFC Ton
8 years ago

You squeal like a bitch Titum. Not sure why you want to drag Ya Really into it but y’all are certainly willing to try. Hit me up on my blog and I’ll give your her contact info but you better bring more to the table then that weak ass bench-press you brag about.

Got it Sun and no offense intended; needing meds is not the same kind of thing.

Jeremy
Jeremy
8 years ago

@TuffLuv

Your assessments are crap and they come from inexperience. The usefulness of it is very simple. It’s only a way to get things off the chest without it blowing up..

That’s absurd. There’s no other word for it. What you just wrote right there is ridiculous. You are saying that professional therapists are the only method of inner expression that is capable of alleviating a violent response. You’re abdicating all responsibility for your own decisions/actions before you even make the attempt at self-diagnosis with language like that.

Jack LeBear
Jack LeBear
8 years ago

The way that psychotherapy really works is that a limbic connection is established between therapist and client, and slowly the client becomes more like the therapist.

Choose your therapist wisely.

Similarly, choose wisely whom to love, for that is who you become.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@SFC Ton It’s cool. I’ve had to make the distinction for people before. I just know from my personal experience dealing with clinical depression that it’s entirely different beast from just “being depressed”. When I see a friend who’s just down, I kick them in the ass to get back up. When I can recognize signs of clinical depression (which is more recognizing a long term pattern than short term signs to be read), I direct them to a therapist. Spend your life with this problem and you get good at spotting the signs. On the minus side, it means… Read more »

SFC Ton
8 years ago

I get that Sun. Therapist implies chatting; my sister in law, (ex but my ex’s family is still good to me) is the kind who is a MD and writes prescriptions so I have an appreciation for that stuff via her. Very helpful and much different then”therapist”. In that case their is a fault, like your car not starting, and a repair for it. Side note, she saw through my ex wife’s bullshit and is the primary reason I am still friendly with my (ex) in laws. As always, it is good to.read about your progress. It’s how hard you… Read more »

Tilikum
8 years ago

lol. it really is that easy fellas.

melmoth
melmoth
8 years ago

@Sun I think the conundrum phase of RP awareness is early on. When you’re learning ‘No fux given’ mentalities at the same time that you give such a massive fuck that you’ve led yourself to the internet to figure out why things went so off-track. It’s basically logically impossible to avoid that gray, conundrum phase. Who didn’t get those first nuggets of RP wisdom and then be overcome with eagerness to take them out into the world and win approval/get revenge/get chicks with them? I like to think I’m farther along. One of the tougher realities of RP is that… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
8 years ago

@TuffLuv – While I think you are a white knuckling, purple-piller, I also have huge sympathy. Digesting the Red Pill is hard. And I can relate to you a lot. And I had great sex with my ex after we separated. Yawn… What you seem to miss is that your fucking cunt of an ex-wife just destroyed your family. And then – and only then – will she throw you some wild pussy. She’s still manipulating you with sex and you don’t even see it. Hell, you aren’t just blind – YOU BRAG ABOUT IT. I wonder if you ever… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@Rollo

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/264/200/acb.jpg

Finish the book, bro. I need new reading material!

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
8 years ago

Tilikum. It’s one thing to be easy. It is another thing to be be effortless. The key component is skills at being effortless at game. Because you put in your Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours to be an OutLier. A rare breed because it is rare that people aren’t INTJ and believe that others aren’t too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve excellent results. sfcTON is congruent. Heheh. He called me out on watching the Oscar’s TV Show. A travesty. He is alpha in this descritpion. My descrition is beta. I simplhy had not reason to waste a couple hours.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@sjfrellc

He called me out on watching the Oscar’s TV Show.

Shit, that ain’t nothin. I’d have called you out on that in my most Blue Pill of days. Bunch of self-congratulatory masturbation on the part of Hollywood. Not worth watching in the least. Ever.

kfg
kfg
8 years ago

@Glenn: “I think she was literally seeing how her possible futures would diverge over time.” I think she was doing it because she could. They will do it if their ex is lying drunk in the gutter of the flop house he just got thrown out of because he didn’t have the rent money. They do it to show that even under the circumstances they can still play you like the proverbial violin and perhaps even leave you convinced that you were the winner of the deal. However much they may not want you, they still want you to be… Read more »

Will
Will
8 years ago

@rollo in all honesty you over-analyze and obsess over blue pill/red pill. Blue pill is a part of game. And if you actually have authentic high value in your life (CEO or doctor etc) you can afford to be blue pillish and beta from time to time (obviously know boundaries and don’t go over board). But, a girl will be flattered if you have this value and you are doing it for her. Obviously she will be sickened if some loser working at the gas station is on his knees bowing down to her. It’s well put as: authentic, passionate,… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
8 years ago

@Will

Horseshit.

Blue Pill is acting without awareness. Red Pill is acting with awareness. Acting without awareness is always fucking stupid. Without exception.

herb
herb
8 years ago

I adore the picture of the invisible man with the honey in his arms wearing that blank stare,

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
8 years ago

It’s funny how Tuff assumes that the readership here generally has no experience with marriage counseling. What a ridiculous presumption that is. I had two swings by marriage counseling during my marriage. Both were ineffective and made things worse — and the counselor was very pro-marriage, relatively speaking, and not pro divorce. The trouble is the framing — it’s a terrible framing for the most part. Are there possibly unicorn counselors out there who manage to be very different? Possibly, but there aren’t many of them. Then entire ideology of the profession is inundated with anti-male nonsense. Some of us… Read more »

SFC Ton
8 years ago

Titcum is nothing but a bitch who thinks he is some kind of word ninja but I’ll put money on him not having the balls to shut talk me or my crew face to face.

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
8 years ago

“.. I felt like I was confessing to a janitor.”
Not to be sniffed at. Probably a better idea than having some never-really-left-school-or-parents “professional” witter their lecture notes back at you.
The janitor at my elementary school was an ex-RM commando with a (fascinating to us kids) tin leg. I’d take his word on most things, if he was around anymore. He could even get ladders and retrieve footballs from the (flat) roof. Slowly, and very deliberately.

Tilikum
8 years ago

@sfcton

See, dude, this is what I’m talking about. HULK SMASH is not an effective game strategy when faced with a physically dominant AND somewhat bright guy. Use your brain, boy!

As to your “crew”, thats never hard to topple. Usually a quick offer of an extra $20 for a case of PBR if they sweep the driveway AFTER they get done cleaning up the yard and they are happy as a clam!

Glenn
Glenn
8 years ago

RE: Marriage Counseling – My erstwhile wife and I went to marriage counseling, with a new agey, pseudo therapist my ex insisted we see. The entire vibe put the onus on me to “fix” things. At one point, she had us do a communications exercise, Imago listening. The structure was simple, but quite challenging. You sit face to face with your partner and take turns speaking and listening, but do so in a very specific way. One partner has 3 minutes to say whatever he/she wants about the relationship and the other has to just listen, silently. When the 3… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@sun (particularly at the hands of my mother; she saw a boy that looked like her abusive ex husband in front of her and abused him a lot for her catharsis) I have a question for you, only to satisfy my own curiosity, and please don’t take offense. I’ve had multiple close friends whose mothers treated them in this exact same way, and each one of them described an abusive (in some way) father. I’m just wondering how abusive you feel your father TRULY was. Because your phrasing states that the abuse you suffered came ‘particularly’ from your mother. It’s… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@glenn

Still reading your comment.. but preemptively..

“What you seem to miss is that your fucking cunt of an ex-wife just destroyed your family.”

.. is not lost on me.. lol

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@glenn alright back the truck up.. damn I just keep going deeper down this rabbit hole.. Are you that asleep? No. Here’s what happened. Wife had an affair, came home and said we were done, unconditionally. I said, “what’s his name?”. She lied.. I managed to get her phone.. busted. That all took place in 24 hours. paramour was going to marry her (supposedly), and immediately move in with her. As I scrambled to work out an amicable MSA with her and cut my losses, I also tempted her back to my bed (wine did most of the work), because… Read more »

SFC Ton
8 years ago

You physically dominate? With your small ass bench press? LOL what is the color of the sky in your world?

LOL my crew…. LOL you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about boy, or who you are talking to.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

P.s. New dude ain’t nothing special. Like I said before, he’s a ‘nice guy’. Stepped right into HER frame. He had no choice in the matter. I really do pity the fool. Sure, he’s getting some great sex right now. Believe me fellas, it don’t bother my one fucking bit.. not that part. The part about him playing daddy to my daughter so quickly tears me up.. but he has actually played by some rules we discussed, and it could be a lot worse. I will repeat.. I don’t want to run him off. God knows what she’d have in… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@glenn “But I don’t give a shit. If they are 18 or over, it’s all fair game after that. Whatever lies, games, misunderstandings – I don’t give a shit. I play them because they play me. I finally got the message. So, I manipulate them now and get what I want. I don’t give a shit how they feel about it. Interestingly, women are much less rough with me about how I treat them now than ever. They respect me more, and I’m much more of an asshole than I ever dared be.” I’m not here yet, obviously.. but it… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@kfg

However much they may not want you, they still want you to be their puppet.

THIS

This is what this re-divorce is all about.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@nova “I had two swings by marriage counseling during my marriage. Both were ineffective and made things worse — and the counselor was very pro-marriage, relatively speaking, and not pro divorce. The trouble is the framing — it’s a terrible framing for the most part. Are there possibly unicorn counselors out there who manage to be very different? Possibly, but there aren’t many of them. Then entire ideology of the profession is inundated with anti-male nonsense.” To the rest of your comment.. try not to assume what I presume. I fully understand that counseling is BS on the whole, fully… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

@rollo

When things settle down, and pacing the floor and reacting to lawyers subsides.. I look forward to reading ALL your books.

Congrats on your achievements

kobayashii1681
8 years ago

“I can see you don’t want any ‘dissent’ on your blog.. but y’all need to realize that if you want any kind of return of women to the old ways, then don’t give up the old ways.

Continue them, whether they like it or not.”

?????????????
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f7/f71beaed2b2a0d18a081fe28448c68ec43cc052c8c1539addfdaeede78e59800.jpg

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

dafuq? From our overblown discussion on door holding? While I concede I didn’t hold frame with my wife, was BP’d.. was a chump.. need to read more, etc.. I will still continue to hold the door. sorry guys. I’ve covered the reasons in detail. I don’t see it as BP at all, while also acknowledging the arguments against it. Just yesterday I was in close quarters with two new pretty faces by that act alone. No I didn’t pull numbers, I’m not in that mode right now, I’m in idle.. But the interactions are good practice. Had I ignored them,… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
8 years ago

@ Tuff – Your commentary does illuminate a bit, perhaps you might understand the initial impression I had though, given the narrative you laid out. As for getting to the place I’m at, I get that we are all on our own journey here. For me, once I got that at a basic level I valued myself in the utilitarian way the FI told me to, everything changed. Even as a father, the idea that my lot in life was to take whatever shit my adult kid dished at me – everything changed. I don’t take shit from anyone now.… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
8 years ago

@Tuff “When things settle down, and pacing the floor and reacting to lawyers subsides.. I look forward to reading ALL your books. Congrats on your achievements” You do see what you are doing there, right? You’re trying to qualify. Your stories add to and validate this blog’s message, but your blue pill assertions make about as much sense as a woman we met a couple weeks ago. A 28 year old girl (fully in her epiphany phase and all that entails) showed up with her boyfriend at an all guys (deerhunting) party. (His excuse was she’s a deer hunter too).… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

I am definitely on that road and I feel your pain brother. Amen, and here’s an Irish poem for you that my parents have hanging on the guest bathroom wall. NO SHIT 🙂

May those who
Love us, love us.

And those that
Don’t love us
May God turn
Their hearts;

And if he doesn’t
Turn their hearts
May he turn
Their ankles.

So we’ll know them
By their limping.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

fuck off. play your passive aggressive games with someone else.. go pick on Will for a while or something.. lol

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

Mentors don’t require qualification. They do it for the internal rewards.

I can compliment rollo however I choose, and you can suck it before and after your henpecking.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
8 years ago

And that is no way to pass a shit test.

You’re qualifying yourself if you are making excuses for what you said or did. If you’re reacting to the person or group and going out of your way to justify your words or actions. This is all approval seeking behavior.

You do realize going forward if you can pass a shit test and check your self qualifying you can get into the girl’s pants easier?

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

You’re shit testing me? Now who’s acting like a woman?

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
8 years ago

plus.. unlike other’s.. I’m not here to learn how to get laid, bro.. I’m here to heal, and understand, and yes, possibly add to the discussion.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
8 years ago

Ask sfcTon if any guy in a group of guys ever shit tests buddies in the group?

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