The Isolationists

isolation

Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:

It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.

Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.

That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.

I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.

So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

I touched on this in Vulnerability:

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.

Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.

With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.

Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.

There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.

The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.

The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.

With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.

409 comments

  1. I’d also say it’s a mix of the two. From one side you can concentrate on your goals and that in fact makes you more attractive to an average woman. Also, when you are confident you go and ask women out – if they accept then fine, if not- hey, it’s not a tragedy. You just move along. It is a numbers game because attraction is not a choice. If you meet 10 women let’s say 7 would be indifferent, two slightly interested and one probably really interested. If you meet 100 women – you have 10 times more chances of meeting someone who will be really attracted to you.

    Makes no sense to waste your time with women who *don’t* feel attracted to you. With experience comes also a skill of being able to feel when woman is interested in you. This way, you look out for women who are interested in you and you interested in them – genuinely. Dating and hooking up happens effortlessly afterwards. But yes, you must go out and meet those women. Male energy is all about giving away, taking action, setting up goals etc.

    There’s nothing wrong with sex, or women per se. It is just lack of understanding that most men have in regards of relationships and women that creates misery in their lives.

    If you have your life set up correctly, you naturally want to get out from time to time and just have fun. Women wants the same. They can also feel if you have several options (spinning plates) and that is also an important point. Being too serious about dating etc. makes no sense to me.

    ‘Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with.’ Exactly this. 🙂

    https://redmalehummingbird.wordpress.com/

  2. “Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. ”

    It gets to you sometimes – specifically the toying part.

    ” I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.”

    Exactly. You have to wait for things to come to you. I had this attitude with women and always wondered when I would meet that girl.

    Law 18 contradicts the entire concept of Monk-mode. These days its simply used as an excuse not to interact with the outside world and specifically to avoid possible uncomfortable situations.

  3. In reading this blog essay I kept waiting for the message of the last two paragraphs. And the message was delivered. High five Rollo.

    Have:

    Strength (physical, intellectual and monetary)
    Courage (have a mission and die when you are done)
    Mastery (be very good at a few core things and then some other)
    Honor (be a man that other men would have in their gang, willingly)

    Be good at being a man and have intrinsic value.

    Learn game and have red pill awareness.

  4. Enough is never enough – until it is.

    “The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom for it is only when you have had too much do you know how much is enough.” Wm. Blake.

    I have a work which I enjoy greatly. About every three months or so I’d get to hankering for pussy. I would then find some girls who were interested by various means and do a rotation until I scored. That method would work quite well when I was outside of a social circle. If I was in one it just required focusing on an interested female.

    The real question though is: “What do women want?” Dominance. Without that the rest is just a waste of time.

  5. i’m struck by how far simple maleness needs to be adeptly deconstructed here (seemingly to the molecular level) in order to achieve a minor baseline for the average man to begin to move forward.

    entire LIVES lived in slavery to the matrix and it’s institutions…gov’t. marriage, corporate patricians.

    it’s literally an equal skill set these days to write computer code and change a tire. think of the utter lack of humanity in that?

    pity is really all I have left to feel.

  6. “i’m struck by how far simple maleness needs to be adeptly deconstructed here (seemingly to the molecular level) in order to achieve a minor baseline for the average man to begin to move forward.”

    Nice insightful statement Tilikum. I’d attribute it to the fog of war and I would also pity the man who says “why do my eyes hurt” because he never used them.

  7. Rollo – “You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.”

    But there must be enough successes to determine the qualitative difference between success and failure. Also, success must be frequent enough to compare the processes that lead to success versus those that lead to failure.

    If all one experiences is rejection and failure then one only learns how to lose. Leaning to win absolutely requires a few actual wins if for no other reason than to motivate one to suffer the defeats in between.

  8. As you point out, there are more than one camp withing MGTOW. The ones that don’t write women off entirely are the primary subjects here. I’ve never taken their statements of being outcome independant as anything other than regaining their frame and taking women off the pedistal. Perhaps they use different words, but I believe the intent is the same. The only difference is such a MGTOW seems to be a recovering beta, where guys like Rollo, never gave up their frame to begin with. It’s just a different perspective on the same topic.

  9. Serious question: Is there literally any state of mind a man could have that you would not dismiss or classify as a buffer against rejection? If so, what is it?

  10. Either-or question strikes me as a false dichotomy with an insufficient understanding of time preferences. Too much wanting to have your cake and eat it too – and right now! Instead, treat yourself as a medium to long-term investment. That is to say don’t completely exit the game — practice and learn even though the returns might be small for now — but focus on building and improving both your abilities and position for the future.

  11. @Neguy

    Think about Michael Jordan or a man like him “in the zone”. Basketball, golf, soccer, a man’s work, socializing, hunting, farming Etc. A man can be in the zone and not have buffers while accomplishing his goal. In the zone equals no buffers. Not worried about failure, so no buffers needed.

  12. @Is This Thing On

    Even the mighty Rollo lost frame with his BPD girlfriend. He just didn’t use that failure as a portent to exit the game for good. From what I can tell, he took it as an object lesson and a launch point to make sure such a thing never happened to him again. Thoreau (himself an MGTOW) made a simultaneous argument for AND against the MGTOW philosophy. It’s complicated…thus rich soil for a serious discussion here.

    “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.” —Henry David Thoreau

  13. The Diplomat – “I posit that MGTOW qualifies as a ‘desperate thing.'”

    I posit all positions qualify as desperate expect for the very few actual winners.

  14. And, I will not argue that a certain varying level of despair lies behind RP aware participation in game. It comes with the territory.

  15. “Define “winner.”” That would be a man who has real power.

    “Real Power is the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we actually control the directions of our lives.”–Tomassi, Rollo

  16. I think what’s happening here is the distinction of RP concepts and then practical use of the strategies in the real world. When theories are defined in the Manosphere its easier to just issue extreme opposites because it helps to better visualise and explain what it actually is. I see the FI as constantly changing and adapting, there would be no way to properly compare defined even game tactics with every interaction with a female. These are the kinds of postings I enjoy the most because it directly relates to the agents, especially in keeping your frame.

  17. Well, then…for better or for worse, we’re all “winners.” Barring biological misfortunes or unforeseen plane crashes, etc.

  18. Not a bit of both … it IS both.

    Thought Experiment:
    Does Larry Ellison need “Game”? of course not he is a Mufti-Billionaire with a passing resemblance to Tony Stark.

    If you are very interesting or very wealthy you don’t need Game… the Female circus come to you.
    If you are not interesting or wealthy you need Game Help… pure and simple.

    MGTOW is a fine ideal but … much like a fisherman without a net, what do you do when you hook one?

    Game is all about what you do AFTER first attraction happens. So yes MGTOW works up to the point that a female is actually interested. If you are rich she will plow through any social awkwardness. But if you are not you had best make the mating easier for the lass OR you will be Going Your Own Way for a long time.

  19. @sjfrellc

    Might want to reset the goalposts or stop using the term “winner.” Nobody gets out of here alive.

  20. “…Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with.”

    There is a fundamental flaw in this reasoning. Allow me to illustrate:
    I became a MGHOW following years of dating, short term relationships and one long term relationship. Only then did I rediscover my mission(s) in life; competing in biathlon, drumming in a jazz band, learning philosophy and being able to limit my time in the office by dramatically cutting my lifestyle costs.

    None of those missions attract women. So are you suggesting that I alter my missions so as to attract a woman? Perhaps I should abandon biathlon so as to get bulked up in the gym instead? Or maybe work more hours so I can afford to peacock my wealth to attract a broad who will ultimately see me only as a utility? Or dumb-down my interest in philosophy or avant-garde jazz, because they’re male-dominated fields and study fashion or social justice instead – since those are more female-friendly endeavours.

    Because if that’s your suggestion, no thanks – the opportunity cost of doing so is too high.

    I get what you’re trying to say about MGTOW and “the isolationists,” but you’re missing the mark because ultimately you’re writing from a position of ignorance. You don’t really understand our motives, nor do you understand the rational thought we’ve put into our strategy to navigate the situation.

    You get B+ for effort, but only D- for execution.

  21. I don’t know that I’d qualify Outcome Independence as a buffer. I think Stoicism dictates a level of it in response to all things in life, for the simple fact that it’s necessary to maintain coherent thought about a problem. Becoming distraught about every failure would be more destructive than never feeling any pain at all over failure. I know because that’s exactly how I used to be.

    I think the aim for OI in the ‘sphere is because so many men have so much experience with the incredible pain one feels in completely lacking it. I know that’s the reason for me personally seeking it.

    I don’t have any illusions of getting to 100% OI and still bothering with women at all; the only way to not care if you lose at all is to not try to begin with. To castrate yourself psychologically, emotionally, and sexually. But I think that to reach a reasonable (functional) level of OI, you have to aim for complete independence when you start from none.

    My personal hope is that I can find that place where I can project almost 100% OI while deadening the pain of rejection and failure enough that I maintain coherent thought, but not so much that I lose interest in life. I have noticed that the more I find OI, the more I feel melancholic indifference to any action. A feeling of “Why bother? In the end nothing matters and nothing changes.”

    It’s only mildly better than feeling like my world might end with my next failure.

  22. @Will

    If we’re being fair, in a lot of places it’s a numbers game finding a woman attractive enough to even start approaching. Where I am right now, it’s wall to wall whales with the occasional skinny 5-6 that thinks she’s a 9. I think I see a genuine 9 once every 2-3 months. Tops.

  23. **numbers game
    **your

    i don’t think you should get serious with a girl until you are a)confident with your future/career (you know it will happen or it is happening) b) you are ready to be married and have kids. This is from the logistically male state

  24. The problem with MGTOWs is that they make not making women their mission their mission.

  25. @sun wukong that last post wasn’t at you we posted at the same time.

    No I agree with you. Even I’m in a top 10 size city and the girls are too chubby for me or something idk ha. And I’m age mid 20s.

    My plan is to just focus on my career path/med school and game girls for the occasional fling or something. I do feel like I’m missing some sort of intammacy aspect in my life tho as corny as that sounds. That’s really what drives me to want to have a serious girl in my life.

    But I think you can dumb a lot of this down to this: if you are passionate about something that provides you with a good career (or not even) then you will have the right state of mind to game girls and you will interest girls.

    Mine is med school, so when I mention that their eyes light up and it becomes a somewhat easier lay.

    I struggle with obsessing and nit-picking over small details when I’m with a girl I’ve already been with. Like playing a game of chess almost. But that’s not the right mindset. You have to be comfortable enough to be vulnerable and some people aren’t so you have to get to that point.

    Idk it sucks when you’ve been burned in a relationship before b/c you become so cynical. it’s evil

  26. Personally, considering all these things: acquiring/consolidating real power in a meaningful way, obtaining outcome independence while still regularly bedding attractive women, internalizing RP awareness and not losing one’s will to thrive or creativity, staying on mission despite naturally occurring existential RP despair, having a reasonably satisfying “journey” (because when the end comes, that IS the destination) in this life, and juggling what one knows vs. what there is still to learn, I choose to be exceptional in my efforts on behalf of these worthy goals and constantly learning–rather than to haplessly throw myself into an oubliette while praying that the world above burns to the ground.

  27. Tilikum
    March 1st, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. – Robert A. Heinlein

  28. sjfrellc
    March 1st, 2015 at 10:39 pm

    I think failure is the wrong word. In “the zone” you correct errors. Being an engineer I think PID loops. With that “control equation” it is all about correcting errors in accordance with the process.

    You start by getting into the proportional zone. Then you continually adjust the control effort to apply as little correction as you can to stay centered.

  29. @Will

    That was my castigation of MGTOW. Proudly proclaiming that you’ve “chosen radical invisibility and brokenness” when you’re already invisible and broken is no feat. I don’t fault them for their choices–many poor choices are made out of anger or despair–but please don’t insult us all by claiming that you’re making some kind of conscientious abdication.

  30. Badpainter
    March 1st, 2015 at 11:34 pm

    See my:
    March 2nd, 2015 at 1:15 am

    Desperation is being outside the proportional zone. Outside that zone maximum effort seems to have no effect.

  31. The Diplomat
    March 2nd, 2015 at 1:19 am

    Proudly proclaiming that you’ve “chosen radical invisibility and brokenness” when you’re already invisible and broken is no feat.

    Yeah. That has been my take on MGTOW.

  32. This particular article by Rollo really set me off for a number of reasons. I didn’t realize I felt this strongly.

    I suppose I’m just bone-weary of the MGTOW evangelists coming in here and rationalizing their crushed-beta simpering as some kind of conscious alpha move on their part. It’s neither radical, nor is it revolutionary.

    Why can’t they just say “I gave up,” or “I felt I couldn’t compete, so I stopped trying.” That would at least be honest–and I would probably respect that. And who knows…? It might even give the community a genuine shot at triage on the MGTOW’s that are possibly salvageable.

  33. @The Diplomat

    I would probably respect that.

    Regardless of respect or not, I’d at least understand the sentiment. It makes sense. “Fuck me I’ve wasted my whole life on this point of view that put me actively working against myself. I feel physically exhausted just thinking about it. I’m going to call it quits.”

    I’ve had days I felt that way. Still do occasionally. Learning this shit wears on you deep down. I can understand people saying “I can’t do it.” I can’t understand them claiming it’s some kind of ultimate alpha. It’s not. Nobody calls the male that got defeated, ran off alone, and failed to breed “alpha” in the animal kingdom. I don’t know why it would be any different for humans.

  34. @Sun

    Well said. And by “respect” I merely meant “due regard,” not “admiration.”

  35. M. Simon – “Desperation is being outside the proportional zone. Outside that zone maximum effort seems to have no effect.”

    This is what economists call a misallocation of resources. Individually a misallocation of time, energy, and varying degrees of money, and a basic misunderstanding of the markets we a dealing in.

  36. Wonderful Post Rollo, thanks.

    For me it has been a life of trial and error (trial and success). Some interactions work well. Maybe not forever. When they end it’s not necessarily failure. Just time to move on.

    I’ve always had my own mission going anyway. Care to ride along? Fine. Not? OK.

    I don’t know that it’s possible to puzzle it all out and then go do it right. It has to be played as the cards fall. And every hand you are dealt (every woman) is different. Several LTRs over a lifetime dealt up some pretty strong lessons. While I’m still learning I cannot look back without at least a little bit of gratitude on even the abject failures as having brought something positive to my life. It might only be a lesson in what type of woman to avoid. That could be a lifesaver.

    Carry on. From my place in the river (I’m getting close to the delta) it’s all been worth it. And it’s even more fun now.

    funoldguy

  37. @ Sun Wukong

    How much of the exhaustion is caused by the sense that the rewards don’t merit the effort? That’s my problem. After accepting the realities of what actually is there is a practical burden of material performance that is increasingly difficult to achieve in this society. Playing the game, unlike golf, is not fun in and of itself. It’s work, and it barely pays off.

    So whereas the militant MGTOWs have abandoned all hope, there is the other group of Enjoy The Decline which has abandoned the material expectations of society, and plays the game strictly for temporary amusement. Both seem to have concluded that in a system where there are no rules, and fewer guarantees, that the best approach is minimize exposures to risk as much as possible, while maximizing personal utility because of an unspoken belief there is no future payoff on their investments.

  38. @chairborne wrote these words to Rollo:

    Or maybe work more hours so I can afford to peacock my wealth to attract a… You get B+ for effort, but only D- for execution.

    Has @chairborne read this post about how Rollo Tomassi handled things at 26?

    The most talented, most successful and most wealthy are constantly enhancing their gifts and talents.

    They do not trade time for money.

    Working more hours isn’t what has made them wealthy.

    They use money to buy time.

  39. Do not agree to some points.

    Fitstly, outcome independance is not a binary opposite between “feodora show off, but cry in pillow at night when alone” and “really be like that”. Trying to support that with the leftist double-bind of “if there realky was (no) X, you wozldn’t talk about X (but let just us do all the talking)” doesn’t make that true, either.

    Outcome independance starts the same as any other game move for non-alphas: You learn it, fake it, make and then it IS who you are.
    Bonus points: As long as OI is a (badly) put up front – of course no effect on game, doesn’t get HBs.

    Being very non-needy and oitcome independant (read: not give a shit about women, but not saying it out loud) surly boosts your success

    Overall a much too
    female-friendly article, with all the focus on companionship and “uhuh having women in your life / Roissy didn’t say…”.

    This site (among others) clearly disproves many BP concepts – you can’t bring them in through the backdoor again…

  40. For men in a bad sexual situation, trying to improve, socializing and disovering your way in life is the best option. They will improve with women as a side effect.

    But some men are really hopeless. A small percentage (1-4%), but a big overall number anyway. For them, GTOW isolationist-mode is the best option.

    All my life I’ve been a beta (omega) and a complete failure with women. I come from a slightly disfunctional family. Lost my virginity at 27 with a hooker and took me 5 more years for my first free fuck. My heart’s been badly broken too many times.

    The truth is I’m handsome. There are plenty of IOI. They only lose interest AFTER getting to know me, or I simply run away, too scared to do anything.

    Of course, there’s a big confidence and self-esteem problem. I started to work on this only when everything clicked after I meet the manosphere and Rollo.

    My point is, after all the work I will be fine in the end, but only because I’m handsome. The first steps are not full of rejection and I’m rewarded when I do thing right.

    I honestly think a man like me, only small, bald and ugly, having grown in a very disfunctional family, is beyond salvation. Isolationism is the best for them.

    Society and women are very harsh on weak men, regardless the reasons.

  41. Roissy, You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality. Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    and

    Rollo, I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women.

    This isn’t always true, and the root of this view is false. I personally know many religious (priests, brothers) who have given up women (and wealth/power) altogether, and have found a deep spiritual peace, one that you can actually see and experience by merely talking with them.

    So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

    One must have the part locked down before the second will be successful. That’s why for the average guy, if they just do the first part, the second part will take care of itself.

    The problem most men have with this reality is accepting that, unlike a woman, a man has little intrinsic worth for merely being alive. He must BE somebody worth loving, do something worth admiring, while she (due to the value of the womb) doesn’t always need to do this and may be desired through no effort on her part.

    For this reason, a man is best off taking the “pursue your interests” path while engaging with women only in an outcome independent manner. It’s not to protect one’s pride but merely to acknowledge that men display and women chose. Sure, act on IOIs, flirt at will, but never lament the lack of success. If that’s your desire…Build it…and they will come.

  42. From the Op: Pandora – “You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you.”

    This is incomplete and deeply flawed advice. It should read:

    “You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life, that women are interested in, and women will come to you if you gain common/popular social status from those interests.”

    If your interests are beta, your status will be as well no matter how dedicated you are to that mission. Killing the inner beta also involves killing the outer beta. The transitioning man will be forced to trade in all of his old identity for a new one. That includes cutting loose nerdy beta friends, geeky hobbies, anything that women turn their noses up at.

    If you play clarinet you trade it for a saxophone. If your favorite card game is Magic you trade it for Texas Hold ’em. You trade comfortable clothes for fashionable clothes because “it is better to look good than to feel good.” Your interests are not entirely what you are interested in, but equally what makes you interesting in a tingle inducing way. Beta interests tend to induce dry vag.

    Or if you choose to retain your old identity you fake it forever, and hide it away because no amount of frame, or game, mitigates a model railroad that takes up half the basement.

  43. The problem with ‘playing the game’ and it’s exponents is that it doesn’t take into consideration the sexual stratification of the mating market and the FI’s exacerbation of the haves and have nots. Also of note is the life stage of men and their differing goals.

    The top 20% don’t need the advice, the next 40% could do with it but the bottom 40% are in a right pickle.

    For a young man sarging would be the best advice but for a man over 40 time is his most valuable commodity.

    Serial Polygny has created a bind, it’s really a choice between eternally spinning plates, dumpster diving, marrying a pre/post wall ex carouseler (with the ensuing risks) or taking your bat home and not playing.

    Would anyone have really begrudged Spartacus if he crossed the Alps and lived out the remainder of his life in peace?

    I wonder what’s Rollo’s perspective on the Anti Dump Machine, if men lek and women choose, is a man who hasn’t been chosen really giving up or has the sexual market already decided that for him.

  44. I agree that it is both. The advantage of OI is simply reducing subjective costs to (ideally) zero. Something that is reduced to zero is simply no ruling factor in your life.

    Simple example:
    a) Meet Hb – date – KC is blocked. You have honestly forgotten about the event two days later, until a random conversation brings up that she is”upset” b/c you never contacted herafterwards.

    b) Meet Hb – date – KC is blocked. After four posts in different forums, you tell yourself that she was UG anyway and you were not interested, also you tell everybody who brings it up that she was just a stupid slut.

    a = OI, no costs follow a failed attempt.
    b = not OI, negative personal costs follow failed attempts, including pre-blocking yourself with Hbs who get wind of this reaction pattern.

  45. The previous posts that point out women do the choosing are important to remember. MGTOW is really the only answer for those who are not chosen. It is a way to stop the bleeding so to speak. After they have worked on themselves for their own benefit, at some point they may start getting IOI. At that point they can re-assess. The reality is at least 50% of men are never going to be selected in any alpha sort of way, probably at any point in there lives. Can anyone here offer those guys better advice than MGTOW?

    Anyone who by choice or by cercumstance isn’t going to get laid (maybe they like their train set in the basement) would be much better off not giving their energy away to women who will never return that energy.

  46. Romantic love is a delusion, fallacy, illusion, myth, etc., and a very harmful one at that.

    Men and women were not meant to be in a long term pair bond. Marriage is an artificial social construct which is unnatural and destructive in reality.

    Grow up and get over it.

    The ancient Romans and Greeks had the right attitude:
    Sex was just like any other bodily function, like eating, drinking, using the toilet, etc. Treat it as such. Your life will be much healthier and more balanced. This is the reality of life unfortunately.

    Go use an escort (they’re legal, young and attractive, highly skilled and experienced, safer regarding STD’s (for high end escorts – obviously stay away from lower class street hookers), eager to please, and relatively cheap in Europe and very many places elsewhere). Using escorts is always cheaper than marriage anyway, and you get more variety in women (The Coolidge effect is very real in humans talking from experience). And you don’t have to worry about divorce.

    Problem solved.

    For the life of me I do not understand why these PUA guys (Roosh, Kaiser, et al.) expend so much effort, time and resources trying to convince mostly mediocre women to boink them, even in places overflowing with hot, young, relatively cheap and legal escorts eager for clients (such as in eastern Europe). These guys should spend their time and effort in self-actualization and building themselves up with a career that they like or business, etc., rather than chasing women like they do.

    Men always pay for sex, either directly or indirectly via risk, time, money, etc. I don’t care if he is an “alpha” guy, he is still paying for it in one way or another. And married men always pay the most, and mostly for mediocre product which is damaging to their lives and health – always.

  47. The thrill of the hunt is the answer. Some men like to hunt. A day in the woods is better even if you come back empty handed that going to a game preserve and bagging a dozen phesant that have had their wings clipped. The game farm might be fun a few times or every once in a while, but eventually you want to go out and test your metal.

  48. Great post, like the first commenter said, it’s a mix of two. Like “inner” and “outer” game, you work on both concurrently. Approach women while becoming a more physically fit, intelligent, wealthy and thus confident man.

    I remember thinking that the “outcome independence” mindset never quite sat well with me. I’ve learned to be indifferent towards individual rejections, but I am highly outcome independent on getting laid, finding a girlfriend, etc. when I set that as my goal. Recently, a month of heavy approaching didint produce the results I wanted so I reflected, refocused and now have 5 dates lined up in 6 days.

    I think that men who have women “come to them” still need a foundation of game competence and an attractive lifestyle that is built over the course of years. If a man isn’t getting the results he wants with women and doesn’t have much game experience, in my view he needs to dedicate himself to game in one form or another and aim to approach 500-1000 women over the course of a few years. There’s no shortcut, unless you’re very good looking and can run competent game. I’ve approached about 1000 women in the last 2.5 years, been on 60-70 dates. My twenties were barren when it comes to women (Im now 31) so this was my way to catch up. I don’t see it as a permanent lifestyle, but there was no other way to learn this stuff than through experience.

  49. Thrill of the hunt:

    I enjoy a good nature hike.

    I’m a gun nut and love shooting.

    Nothing better than wild game for cooking. Still haven’t figured out to do with antelope.

    Yet I don’t enjoy hunting at all. Nothing more aggravating than wasting time and money while freezing to death to carry around a rifle I likely won’t get to fire all so I can stop at the grocery store to buy the meat I didn’t kill.

    Now give a box or two of 22lr and turn me lose on a prairie dog down and kill furry critters until the sun burn blisters. But that’s blood sport not hunting.

  50. Generally I don’t care for “one size fits all” type of approaches — as in “all men must do X” or “all men do X or else they’re fake men” or what have you.

    I agree that most guys who go MGTOW are the ones who were not getting the results they wanted. I think more of them would do well to admit that — there would probably be less tension that way between the various parts of the manosphere — but I suspect their unwillingness to do so stems from pride more than anything else.

    From my perspective, a certain percentage of men is just going to fail in this system no matter how hard they try. By “fail”, I mean cap out at attracting a female 3, maybe 4, and that’s it. This is due to any combination of factors — bad genes (height/weight/looks), lack of willpower, lack of discipline, inability to change personality, etc. These are all personality traits and they are not all equally malleable in all people. A certain percentage of guys is going to be more or less stuck with shitty traits when it comes to attracting women in a free market system, just like a certain percentage of people is going to be more or less stuck with shitty traits to compete effectively in a free market economic system. That’s just how it is.

    I’m not sure what the percentage is — is it 10%, 20%? Something like that. Probably a much larger percent, in actuality, than the tiny sliver of the male population that is consciously MGTOWs. I think apart from the conscious MGTOWs is a larger number of guys who know they have shitty traits (a part of those traits is a lesser ability and willingness to change), and just kind of give up after a while, without declaring themselves anything in particular. I think this is to be expected for the people who — based on their shitty traits — are poorly set up to compete and also poorly set up to improve themselves so as to compete — they don’t have the traits to support that enterprise. I’m not surprised that they give up, frankly — it’s understandable given their shitty traits.

    So, while I do agree that it is not good that MGTOWs make mostly unsupportable claims about why they are choosing to do what they do (for the most part it’s their way of dealing with failure, and it would be better to admit that), I do think that a certain percentage of the male population is going to be “de facto” MGTOW, even if they do not wear that label or even know what it means. In any free market system, there is a certain percentage who will be losers, and the SMP is no exception to that. To me, it’s better that these people go off and do their own thing and write blogs bitching about women than it is for them to go postal.

  51. The only winners in the sexual market are men either as evil as women know themselves to be or able to fake such. That is the bottom line. Some women are even self aware enough to realize it but still don’t stop giving it away to douchebags while friend zoning any man who takes beta bait and shows himself to not be dark triad. Even if the beta is upper beta with confidence and looks.

  52. “The only winners in the sexual market are men either as evil as women know themselves to be or able to fake such.”

    Apply red pill razor: Be evil.
    Clever evil, not “stupid and get caught/thrown out of desirable society”-evil.

    Outcome independance is a natural consequence of being “evil” as defined by the old set of books/rules, where women are dpicted ON A PURLY FICTIONAL LEVEL EXPLICITY AVOIDING ANY ANDF ALL EMPIRICAL DESCRIBTION OF THEIR SEXUAL BEHAVIOUR as something “special”, as “humans with just a few parts different”, “vulnerable/valuable”-combo etc. pp.

    @ “Not hunting, but blood sport”: I fully agree. I see it the same way.
    “Hunting” pussy is not thrilling to me at all – the genuine alpha fux reaction is the thing. And you can’t have that with escorts – yes, I tried. At least for me personally, the strength of a AF-reaction-orgasm is mulitudes better than hooker-orgasms.

    If it were just that simple (hire hooker, have “real” AF-orgams) I wouldn’t have learnt game at all, b/c even good-looking/skillful whores are relativly cheap in Europe.

    Which leads to
    @escorts etc.:
    Although I strongly support escorts, hookers and porn, I never use that stuff to get off.
    Why do I still support it?
    Escorts, Porn and hookers lowers the “bullshit barrier” that men have to put up with to get some globally/across an entire region in a subtle way.
    The bullshit barrier is the amount of bullshit (including “talking”) that men are willing to go through before they just have enough and jerk off to porn.

    That’s why feminists and women in general are agianst it, usually. (Of course while consuming only the most perverted porn themselves, check the “female choice” section of the big sites – always the most borderline shit; bordering on rape, giant cocks of a strange men as possible, rape-like scenarios, rather hardcore SM with a lot of visible pain but almost no normal vaginal intercourse etc.pp.)

  53. ” I think apart from the conscious MGTOWs is a larger number of guys who know they have shitty traits (a part of those traits is a lesser ability and willingness to change), and just kind of give up after a while, without declaring themselves anything in particular. I think this is to be expected for the people who — based on their shitty traits — are poorly set up to compete and also poorly set up to improve themselves so as to compete — they don’t have the traits to support that enterprise. I’m not surprised that they give up, frankly — it’s understandable given their shitty traits.”

    Those guys exist – but if they continue to be what is considered “normal” to women in AFC-Land (deferential, polite, helpful, always available as social or work partners), their abstinence is not useful, but even highly damaging – because the females still get their attention and utility needs met, but don’t even have to resort to LJBF or rejections to get it done…those “unconcious” MGOTW-guys to more damage by propping up beta-bucks expectations globally than any number of half-assed, purple-pill-needy PUA-imitators…

  54. Well, but if they are damaging as unconscious MGTOWs and yet don’t have the traits to successfully execute a red pill program, wouldn’t we be better off if they were conscious MGTOWs? I don’t see how we get there by saying that all MGTOWs are pussies.

  55. As a MGTOW I have found ‘indifference’ very useful. Yes I would ‘like’ a girl to date and have sex with, but I can live my life without them. The standard PUA NEEDS a women, so he comes off desperate, with me I am not caught up on the ‘success’ so naturally more relaxed.

  56. I dont like seeing RP labeled as some form of desperation. Being a beta or MGTOW is desperate. I dont ever feel desperation anymore now that Im 100% red pill. I think some mistake the calculated risks we take and assume there is an undertone of desperation. I look at sex and dating as my own personal business. Maximize my margins, dont waste my efforts, take informed and calculated risks, and reap the rewards accordingly. Make women desperate…to enter your frame/pants party hahaha

  57. I largely agree with the premise of this article. However, I tend to view outcome independence as an important component of interacting with any given woman. From a macro-perspective, most men want to succeed with women, and shouldn’t have outcome independence in terms of their long-term success. But when approaching a random woman, etc, that particular interaction should mean to the man in terms of results.

  58. @mdavid

    I personally know many religious (priests, brothers) who have given up women (and wealth/power) altogether, and have found a deep spiritual peace, one that you can actually see and experience by merely talking with them.

    They are still subject to women’s influence. Even if I believed the sexual component of that influence weren’t an issue for them, they still must interact with the Feminine Imperative on a societal level. They may not be directly, sexually, influenced by women, but they most definitely are dealing with women’s influence and the men who are influenced by them.

  59. @chairborne,

    competing in biathlon, drumming in a jazz band, learning philosophy and being able to limit my time in the office by dramatically cutting my lifestyle costs.

    None of those missions attract women.

    So the physique you’ve developed to be competing in a biathlon doesn’t attract women?

    The social proof and creative interest of being a jazz drummer doesn’t attract women?

    The Amused Mastery that comes as an extension of learning philosophy isn’t attractive to women?

    Perhaps it’s you who deserves the D- for execution.

  60. There’s two components where I disagree.There are environments where men simply dont have the social or legal security to approach or interact with women except in VERY specific circumstances.

    Regardless of how well adjusted a man may be in his head, if he games a woman in the wrong place at the wrong time it can torpedo his life. Great example-in the military, the culture is paradoxically just as feminist matriarchial as a typical American left leaning university. A man who dates a woman and displeases her in some way ;say not agreeing to an exclusive relationship, faces being charged with sexual harassment, sexual assault, or being re-assigned to a less prosperous career track. While this is a personal anecdote, I knew an Air Force Airman who lost his post in sunny Florida-and one stripe- for a spot in North Dakota because his ex complained to his commander.

    In many companies and colleges the situation is broadly similar.In those circumstances, a rational man may decide celibacy and “isolation” is a better alternative then risking his job and career prospects every weekend.Of course such conditons are temporary in nature, but it goes to show that sometimes pulling one’s chips from the Game isnt a bad idea in some occasions.

    Second-its been my experience that a man must keep his “plate spinning” social group totally separate from his “regular friends” group.In the latter, the fallout from one displeased woman can sink whole friendships. Thats a lesson I learned the hard way. I faced a woman wanting to Beta-ize me three months in. Upon being declined, she started vengeful rumors and wound up turning a good group of aquaintances against me.The whole gang drifted apart for other reasons, but when Bluepill Men are told by a chick You Misbehaved, theyre taking her side at face value.

    If a man finds himself in a very tight social group where Girl A knows Girl B, Girl B knows Girl E and so forth, his practical alternatives are celibacy or surrendering to a traditional relationship.Burn too many bridges -or even just one-and his last girl might decide filing a harassment complaint or keying his car is “social justice”. Plate spinning is a short term play at best in that kind of environment -again, its rational for a man to decide to pull chips and wait for a better social chance to re-engage.

  61. @Anon: “The only winners in the sexual market are men either as evil as women know themselves to be or able to fake such. That is the bottom line. Some women are even self aware enough to realize it but still don’t stop giving it away to douchebags while friend zoning any man who takes beta bait and shows himself to not be dark triad. Even if the beta is upper beta with confidence and looks.”

    As with Rollo’s OP focusing on Outcome Independence and the IDGAF attitude, I think you can be a winner (or have OI and IDGAF) if you just FAKE it. It is just a game. She knows you are desperate to fuck her. You ACT aloof and indifferent and she ACTS to gain your overt interest. Both of you know the game, and both of you are aware of the rolls you play, hopefully.

    TLDR: You can fake OI and Dark Triad until you get attraction and keep it up indefinitely just enough to keep attraction. You don’t need nearly as much OI or Dark Triad to keep a relationship going as you did to attract a yougogirrrl in the first place.

  62. Roosh on Outcome Independence:
    http://www.rooshv.com/outcome-independence-leads-to-failure

    Let me ask you this: were important men of history outcome independent?

    Was Alexander the Great outcome independent when he decided to conquer the world?

    Was Hitler outcome independent when he wanted to conquer Europe?

    Was Theodore Roosevelt outcome independent when he wanted to be the most badass US president the country has ever seen?

    Was Martin Luther King, Jr outcome independent when he wanted to eliminate segregation in the South?

    What happened when these men suffered a set back to their goals? Did they say, “Oh, no problem, maybe I’ll have some better luck next time”? No, they got mad. They analyzed their mistakes, adjusted their strategy, and tried again until they succeeded.

  63. @BigAl I dont ever feel desperation anymore now that Im 100% red pill.

    Exactly.

    One point: I’m a Natural Alpha (Thank you to Dannyfrom504). I would have never thought that without studying Red Pill. For me, “Do Your Own Thing” always resulted in Free Pussy. Until it didn’t. The dry spells… I had no control over them. Sometimes I got laid a lot, and sometimes I didn’t get laid at all. I was thoroughly Blue Pill, but I’ve always been what women describe as an “asshole”, and I knew that if a girl I was talking to called me a jerk, I was getting laid that night. I didn’t know why, but it always worked out that way.

    Adding Game has allowed me not merely a level of control over that, but has removed that sense of desperation that both Beta’d me up with whomever I was dating, and made the dry spells long and …. desperate.

    I never knew why, specifically, women were down to fuck sometimes, and not down to fuck at other times. When I really wanted to just get laid, it was like wandering through the desert. When I was busy with something and had no time to think about it, pussy fell out of the fucking sky at me. Now I get it.

    Now I see Red Pill in everything, everywhere. Now I understand women. Women are never surprising. They’re just following their own internal programming.

  64. So long as women work outside the home in this modern economy equalitarian equalism is here to stay. The ultimate threat point is the ability to destroy a man’s most basic survival necessity; his job/career. In a world where BigCorps employees are 24/7 unpaid PR reps, and image is everything, men will be under the FI’s thumb until something breaks in permanent and lasting way. The real war between the sexes is in the traditional economy not in the SMP/MMP.

  65. @Octavian

    “Great example-in the military, the culture is paradoxically just as feminist matriarchial as a typical American left leaning university.”

    An alpha (or Sigma) wouldn’t be caught DEAD in the .mil so it’s a non-issue. You are committing a massive category error and conflating situational Alpha with true Alpha.

    The military is for high functioning Betas (read: systems operators) who thrive on group think and drone reasoning.

    True Alpha looks a metric shit ton more like ISIS, the Nazi’s, etc. American Betas MUST team up to destroy the interlopers with no rules.

    The smart money for a true Alpha/Sigma is to disappear into the background and merely take what you need. High end girls can smell that attitude/taxonomy of the real deal too, BTW.

  66. Octavian, I think “dont shit where you eat” definitely overrides everything. I watched a friend do it and it blew up in his face

  67. Badpainter
    March 2nd, 2015 at 2:26 am

    Not understanding PID controllers you missed my “seems”.

    Example: you have a bucked with a 1 oz per minute leak (well it is not actually like that as the leak is proportional to how full the bucket is – but humor me) and supply 1/2 oz per minute. The bucket remains empty. Now supply the bucket with 1 1/2 oz per minute and the bucket starts to fill.

    That means there is a threshold for effect. The 1/2 oz per minute effort is not wasted if you can add another 1/2+ oz per minute to it.

    Getting no results is not a reason to quit. It is a reason to improve.

  68. I should state for the record I’m not down on MGTOWs in general. Like I said I think there’s more RP hope for them than MRAs stuck in a mindset that their efforts in egalitarian equalism will ever produce what they think it will.

    I get why MGTOW seems like a viable option, but you never exit the game. Even if they’re dealing with their mothers, sisters or coworkers they’re going to ‘deal’ with women.

    I don’t regard the Red Pill as a movement or some factional alignment of men. Whether you identify as MRA, MGTOW, PUA or anything else Red Pill awareness by order of degree is part of your ‘game’.

  69. With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

    Actually, I would think that waiting for women to appreciate men is like waiting around for the Moon to crash into Earth. Not only is it not going to happen in your lifetime, it’s not going to happen period, in fact it is actually ever-so-slowly leaving orbit. As has been directly implied by most of Rollo’s writing, women fundamentally lack any understanding of the male experience. They pretend otherwise because culture imposes some measure of empathic performance on them, but they really do not have anything close to a frame of reference on what a man experiences in his life.

    This is actually a good thing. Since our environment and experiences in no small way dictate our outlook, and our outlook affects our behavior… it’s clear that if women actually did experience life as men do, if they actually did have a daily male experience, they would not be women. Expecting women to “come around” and appreciate your life is a direct path to expecting yourself to be attracted to men. In fact it’s so blue pill it is exactly what aging, career-oriented spinsters are so bitter about… they expect men to appreciate their sacrifices and life path to that point, when really men just want a young set of boobs to play with. Expecting anyone to truly understand any and all sacrifices you may have made is foolishness, so never make such sacrifices for anything you would not give your life for.

    The first paragraph of Rollo’s post rings true at the end as well. Human life is one of consistent if not constant discontent. It is your wanting, not your having that makes you what you are. It’s better to embrace the fact that you’ll always be wanting and “constructively pursue” the behaviors and activities that satisfy but not quench the wanting.

    Since Leonard died recently, a quote from him is appropriate…

    “After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.” – Spock

    Excellent post Rollo.

  70. Octavian
    March 2nd, 2015 at 11:46 am

    Never had that problem. So much so that I frequently (when the opportunity arose) introduced my current GF to my former GF(s).

    The fm has met 3 or 4 of my former GFs. With one of them she was on good terms for a number of years. So much so that we both got invited to the former GF’s wedding. And the fm babysat for the former GF until we moved to a different town.

  71. Nova, So, while I do agree that it is not good that MGTOWs make mostly unsupportable claims about why they are choosing to do what they do (for the most part it’s their way of dealing with failure, and it would be better to admit that), I do think that a certain percentage of the male population is going to be “de facto” MGTOW, even if they do not wear that label or even know what it means. In any free market system, there is a certain percentage who will be losers, and the SMP is no exception to that. To me, it’s better that these people go off and do their own thing and write blogs bitching about women than it is for them to go postal.

    I think this is interesting but unfair to MGTOW (I’m not one myself merely by fate). Many philosophical men don’t need women to justify their own existence. Granted, most men do need family and often women (and not just for sex), but ego from social success is pretty shallow in the long run.

    Everyone optimizes their life based upon their particular situation. But any man with character has a high level of outcome independence. It’s an attractive male trait that leads to success in life.

    I personally find the “game” crowd to be too focused on women and what women think for their own sake. MGTOW folk are better in this regard, but now too focused on avoiding women for their own good. The best solution is balance: First, embrace MGTOW, Second, embrace people and live life to the full (interact with men, women, everyone). Don’t avoid or fear women, but never let them rule your world or actions like gamers are wont to do either. Too damn much work, work that should be invested in family, friends, and making cash.

    I often hear NAWALT mocked. But women are like men in that when offered non-consequence vice, most will grab it regardless of if it’s good for them or not. And the best culture, society, and family styles can be arranged to minimize this vice. If a man is married to a traditional, healthy, and family-focused woman, he need not fear the more base female traits: marriage, family, children, tradition, and religion have control. And believe it or not, those women are out there. Rarer every day, and always home-grown within religious communities, but they are out there, and they are the best option for men: game, MGTOW, or whatever, are pale imitations of the traditional woman.

  72. Tilikum
    March 2nd, 2015 at 12:09 pm

    The military is for high functioning Betas (read: systems operators) who thrive on group think and drone reasoning.

    Drone reasoning may work for staff. It does not work for line. And in combat it doesn’t even work well for staff.

    My experience in the military was that about 50% were Alpha. But it may have been my unit. Still….

  73. mdavid
    March 2nd, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    If you want pussy you focus on how to get pussy. If you want to raise your own food you focus on farming. If you want to program computers you focus on how they work.

    Of course if you want to farm, focusing on chips (transistors, gates, latches, registers, stacks, etc.) may not be the most effective way to go about it. But to say a focus on women is misdirected is non-sense on stilts. Depends on what you want to accomplish.

    I like pussy. Learning how pussy works has been very helpful in getting pussy.

    Women make men crazy. Especially men who can’t get them.

    Once I learned how women worked they were easy. It was taught to me by the first GF at age 18 in ’62.

  74. @Tilikum.

    The military isnt composed exclusively of betas, not by a looooong shot.Of course the Alphas dont exactly have long careers given modern social mores in the DoD, but thats not the same as zero.

    In any event, the point still stands-a man may find himself in a circumstance where hitting the “pause” button on his social life is a logical idea.

    Insofar as MGTOW goes, we should remember that Red Pill awareness involves some degree of pain, and the amount is a purely individual setup.Some guys like myself manage to get out financially and socially unscathed.Most dont-the majority of guys on the MGTOW path have kids, divorce(s), and financial loss of grand proportions. Its easy for me or a third party to say “Get Back on the Horse” -but someone who’s lost a half million dollars , their home, their reputation, their business, and their kids because of women might not be so inclined to do so even if the facts are that we all dont have a choice but to participate in the mating game.

    Guys in that position need to heal, and healing to some extent requires separation. I needed that after my last traditional relationship-I felt hurt, I felt lied to , i felt like someone dropped an anvil on my head. That was “just” the end of a BPD relationship-chump change emotionally compared to finding the truth on the wrong side of 50.

    Someone might feel they have the right to tell men in that position to ignore their past and interact with women on the double.That someone wont be me.

  75. mdavid
    March 2nd, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    Your advice is just wonderful.

    Traditional women – you probably can’t find one and they are the best option so forget figuring out how women work generally and get your rainbow unicorn – guaranteed to make you happy.

    =================================

    The odds imp[rove greatly if you can figure out how to make used pussy commit to you alone. It is a skill and can be taught. It is especially useful where unicorns are rare.

  76. Octavian
    March 2nd, 2015 at 12:53 pm

    RP need not involve pain if learned early enough. I taught all 3 of my boys RP. The 1st daughter is resisting – but she hasn’t hit the wall yet. She models (a 9.5 at least) in her spare time so it may be a while.

  77. I’ve been accused of being an “isolationist” for my MGTOW experience. However, I see that folks zero-in on certain situational elements to support the “running away from failure” angle. In my case, when I discovered that I was living in the matrix, it was at a time where I was able to make sweeping changes to my life, not just with my interactions with women. It should be said, and this is one of those convenient situational elements, that I had been with about 150 women, in several states, but was left wanton for some quality. SEE!!! SEE!!! You’re running away! No: you just can’t include a person’s pre-red-pill experiences as part of the argument for the post-red-pill motivations. Besides “winning lots of junk” isn’t exactly “failure”, it’s just misplaced energy (and resources) in my mind. If you’re still spending $20 at a carnival game to win a $.25 stuffed animal, you’re not likely to see it the same way.

    When I was enlightened by the manosphere, I had to come to terms with who I was and who I wanted to be. What makes ME happy? It is that shift from external-validation to internal-validation that I think is the crucial element in the entire conversation. It is also the key element in defining “winner” or “success”. Do I give a fuck how other people define success? Should I? Do I need to be a winner of a game that brings me no happiness to play?

    No. What matters now is what makes me happy. After considering where I would find like-minded people, and thereby finding like-minded women, I needed only look at my wants/needs/desires and decide for myself. So, I chose to embrace my hunter-gatherer nature and made moves and sacrifices to live in the woods. Not to run away from women, but to be in nature, and it’s a bonus to be away from overpopulation, pollution, and crime. These “bonuses” contribute to my happiness. My happiness is generally my motivation. So whereas in the past, women had been a higher-priority, I chose to redirect my energy. Some would call it “monking up” or “MGTOW”, but, I just had to focus on my own life and future. I had made the common mistake of living to meet the expectations of everyone else but myself in the past. Instead of wondering how I measured up to my own standards, I tried to measure up to established societal measures. That game is rigged!

    The disconnect is where others apply THEIR motivations to MY life in attempts to judge success or gauge the quality. If I had a stressful lifestyle and wanted to change it, that change should be considered good, right? Yes, it happens that I got far away from people, and women. But, it was for a lifestyle that I had a skill set for, for hobbies I had the tools for, and I had a need for a healthier environment, so I made my dream a reality.

    But to say that my “isolation of will” is akin to loosing track of my enemies? Running from my problems? I have the internet. I have a radio. I’m not so completely isolated that I am in a bubble. In my case, I think a lot of the “Isolationist” idea stems from folks in an urban environment without rural skills, specifically. Not knowing the simplest of human functions, like how to feed yourself, is cause for deeply rooted fear, and the outcome is a form of hatred. This “hatred” is for the perceived freedoms of an “isolated” lifestyle that the club life doesn’t afford. This “hatred” is for the feeling of ineptitude one is left with when they realize they can’t harvest an animal and feed it to their family or they have no idea how to plant a garden, much less harvest and preserve it if they did. Mocking and down-playing the lifestyle is a natural reaction, like hating the rich. You, you, dirty isolationist, you! How dare you get away from all us zombies! Struggle with us! Unite! Get back here and lemme have a bite!

    You want what you can’t have. You hate what you fear. To call a MGTOW sort an Isolationist is simply the crabs pulling you back into the barrel with shame. I suppose I could simply say: “Hey, maybe I’m an introvert. I’ll be isolated if it pleases me.” But that doesn’t address the notion that MGTOW may be handling your business as a matter of priority over social matters. Internal-validation is isolation of will; external-validation is basing your desires on society. Your outcome or success is based on your will, not someone else’s definition of success. So, to claim you’re outcome independent when your priority is dating is to simply say you don’t care if you win or lose the game you’re playing. If you don’t care to win or lose, why are you playing that game? MGTOW simply shifts the priorities away from social to personal. Where women fit into any one dude’s personal priorities is surely variable.

    Pandora’s point 1.) is off for that reason. It is from the standpoint that MGTOW is a woman-based motivation. It’s not, it’s Their Own Way, not a woman’s way, or a way to get a woman. Whatever that dude wants, that’s his way, and there he goes. Women might be in the plan, they might not. After all, one must be happy with himself before being happy with another. There are far more than simply “two” camps. That’s “black-and-white” thinking. Every single man that goes his own way goes a different way than every other man that goes HIS OWN way. MGTOW is trailblazing to where you want to be. The rest is following pre-established trails.

    To completely get to the bottom of the differences in “camps”, you have to crack the lids off of consumerism, capitalism, politics, morality, age, STD exposure, and all the rest of the potential motivators for every individual man. MGTOW is far too ambiguous to apply one label to. In terms of isolation, it may be intentional, it may not be, it’s completely situational. Focus on women, or focus on yourself, your situation dictates. There is no “this way is better or righter” or “one-size-fits-all” way. I lived another way, it was unrewarding, so I started living my way.

    Lo, and behold! The woman thing handled itself, as they say, with very little effort on my part. As I was building a castle fit for two, a woman sat herself in front of me and her quality was clear. I had shut down previous gals with only one strike, and had the freedom to embrace the Anti-Dump sooner-than-later method of qualification: I had a clear idea of what I wanted. Without that clear concept, that goal, there is no meeting that goal: I wouldn’t have seen the gal’s quality, as I wouldn’t have had any gauge to measure against, so I would not have snatched her up. The motivation, skill, and dedication to my goals/future did more to attract the woman than my slick words and touching did. (Or, perhaps I was simply happier than previously?)

    Friends, lovers, jobs, money, houses, cars… they all come and go. There is only one constant in my life: me. To sculpt my life, to model my motivations, or to base my success on others’ beliefs has become seemingly unhealthy to me.

    It took playing the game, understanding it, and becoming bored with it, for me to move on for myself. I could say “it takes both”, but prefer to regard it as matter of any man’s personal post-red-pill-evolution. Sure, the new-found tricks and gimmicks were great fun. But, I didn’t need to stay on the pussy-slaying rampage long before I realized I needed to have my life on the tracks in order to obtain better quality women… as a result of a better quality future for myself. For others, their better future may only be another piece of ass that’s better than the one today. If that’s your situation, then, guess what, that’s the way you’re going, then, man. How much it’s “your own way” is simply a matter of whether your motivations are truly your own.

  78. @Rollo: “They are still subject to women’s influence. Even if I believed the sexual component of that influence weren’t an issue for them, they still must interact with the Feminine Imperative on a societal level. They may not be directly, sexually, influenced by women, but they most definitely are dealing with women’s influence and the men who are influenced by them.”

    I’m no MGOTW-member and don’t come from that direction…but again, what you state is sound rhetorically, yet misses the pragmatic social possibilities of today’s fractured social world.

    One yould build the same statement with any (loosly defined) ideology or conviction:
    “Even if you don’t want to face Satanism/Jews/Nazis/Christians/Muslims/XYZ, you have to live in the real world and XYZ has [some – very much] influence there!”

    Assuming somebody really drops out of the regular mating game (–> LTRs, emotional bonding according to FI-rules etc.pp., e.g. choosing prostitues or ONS or masturbation or eating ice cream all day) – in what everyday decisions does he really have to deal with direct female expectations *in a way that can be sanctioned* and is not just based on verbal performance?

    As long as such a person doesn’t shout it from the rooftops (inviting instant social elimination if working for somebody/not financially independant) – I can think of a thousand possibilities from the top of my head to avoid female interaction (including white knights) almost indefinitly *concerning interactions with real consequences that have directly manifesting results.*

    Simple example:
    Of course you have to be somewhat every-day-polite to your (likely FI-influenced) boss, e.g. you have to greet him or execute work orders, perhaps even take part in indoctrination seminars.

    That much is true. But that is just verbal performance.
    As soon as you are not under direct supervision (–> fractured social world), nobody can really keep up that control – not if you don’t agree to that yourself.

    You don’t have to believe in that and can cop out of real, emotional and social connection to those people almost indefinitly with all kinds of verbal sommersaults or by simply not taking part in such interactions – even without changing jobs, becoming self-employed etc or taking any other big risks.
    “Single mom from work marries”? –> important meeting/personal matter to attend to
    “Invitation to brainwashing-session in the form of a seminar”? –> politly decline/not react at all
    etc.pp.

    I gues almost everyone who has to interact with the work enviroment (even if self-employed) has to SAY things that are not his personal opinion every day. (Simple example: You hate the guts of a good customer/client…do you tell him/her that?)

    But that doesn’t mean those people/forces have you in their (real) emotional/social control.

    Real social and emotional control is established in unthinking homeostasis, when the person being controlled just “naturally assumes” that “everyone will grow up some day and marry” or something like that. (Again, we could put a thousand exmaples in that structure, from “recognizes God’s/ Allah’s hand in their life” to “that you should buy twinkledinkle, the best toilet cleaner that you simply need! [until you try the much cheaper diggydinkle-cleaner]”)

    As soon as the veil is really pierced (even just once, for a second), it doesn’t work anymore.

  79. @The Diplomat

    “I choose to be exceptional in my efforts on behalf of these worthy goals”

    What do you want? A merit badge? Nobody cares.

    “and constantly learning–rather than to haplessly throw myself into an oubliette while praying that the world above burns to the ground.”

    It’s already burning to the ground. Take a look around. In fact, that’s the whole reason the manosphere exists at all. It’s burning to the ground. We have a failed culture which can no longer produce social structures and norms which make things that are basic to psychological and emotional well being possible. Your social fabric is eroding. It’s not some doomsday scenario, it’s already here. That is why you have so many guys who are this confused, pissed off, and despairing.

    I already asked the question and never got an answer. What is there to win? Sex is hardly worth all this and you can go get a call girl. And I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t doubt if a lot of call girls are hotter than the girls some of you are pulling after years of reprogramming your personality and trying to become a zen master game practitioner.

    Oh, what makes it worth it is relationships you have with women? What would women have to offer you other than sex if half the shit you guys argue here about female nature is true? If this is how women really are, then what possible relationship is there with them? Why would their opinion of you matter at all? What is it then? What is the motivation? Love? Their respect? Who’s the simpering blue pill chump now?

  80. @Rollo :”The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. ”

    -Nope. The Default state of FEMALES is perpetual discontent.

    The nature of hypergamy means no woman can ever be happy what she has. An evolutionary advantage considering contentment means she’s passing up chances to enhance her and her offspring’s standard of living.

    In turn, the perpetuated discontent she feels is transfered to the man.Every man ive known in a committed relationship-including myself in the recent past-has felt pressure to continually evolve materially . Not because of his own ambition, but because if he didnt he knew he’d be replaced faster then a busted smartphone. If you dont bust your hump chasing spiritual and material discontent as defined by Matriarchial society, she’ll find someone else who will.

    A man without a woman in his life, no matter the time period, can devote himself to knowing himself. A man alone can in fact achieve contentment with whatever circumstance he decides. If things are not favorable, he is flexible enough to make them so. It is when the female is introduced that we see all the philosohical problems crop up.

    The women want bigger homes, more status, more money, more income, more social currency, prettier clothes, bigger cars, more family time, more kids, more stuff for the kids and on and on it goes.No man tied to that kind of engine of consumption on a constant basis can afford a moment’s intellectual respite- or the wife might replace him with a servant more concerned with her exponetially increasing needs then his own.

    I submit ” perpetual discontent” is its own buffer against facing the choice of serving a woman(or women) versus serving one’s own contentment as a man. You cant have it both ways.

  81. “Women make men crazy”
    Actually, I have not been crazy about any woman for years – since I started figuring out how they worked.

    First, I considered that a great price to be paid – you simply can’t be crazy about a randomly-charged hypergamous siganl carrying drone…and you can’t really control your interactions with women until you “just get that”.

    But you achieve something more: Freedom.
    There really is no downside to it all, once you get past the point of mewling over the fact that AFC-love is unreal/a individually dysfunctional illusion. (Although it has great evolotiunary value on a collective scale)

    Doesn’t mean you dislike their alpha-fux-reaction – just means you don’t AFC-“love” them anymore, hence greatly increasing your chances in interactions with all kind of reral and psychological females.

  82. “Oh, what makes it worth it is relationships you have with women? What would women have to offer you other than sex if half the shit you guys argue here about female nature is true?[…]”

    You pose two basic questions.
    The questions are valid from my point of view.

    My answers:
    1) Alpha-fux-reaction = not sex, but mind-exploding-sex. Regular sex is uninteresting, a perfect masturbation session would perhaps supply more pure bodyliy satisfaction at zero dollars than a hooker.

    2) “If this is how women really are, then what possible relationship is there with them?”
    –> That of of master to slave. (Not literally, psychologically and sexually)

    3) “Why would their opinion of you matter at all? What is it then? What is the motivation? Love? Their respect? Who’s the simpering blue pill chump now?”
    –> Who cares about any of that? Embrace the void, it brings freedom.
    (If you think a “void” is something negative per se – reexamine the word fields contaminated by culture that were put into your brain)

  83. I agree with @Rollo on the point that there needs to be a balance. Being a dating coach and coaching guys that is what they lack most. They do one of the two extremes. They make pickup their life and that is all they do or they focus on their career and rarely go out. Either one works, you have to go out there and approach women and still focus on your mission. It’s not easy but it can be done.

    To the guy who in your post @Rollo said that he has been going out and getting mediocre I guarantee that there are 2 reasons he isn’t getting great results. I know this from personal and coaching experience. The first reason he probably isn’t is because he doesn’t have a PLAN.

    I don’t care how many women you approach if you don’t have a plan to weed out the girls who are available and who aren’t available then you are going to waste your time on a lot of women who simply aren’t interested. I usually charge for this information but I will give away this golden nugget for free.

    After you initially approach a woman and you have been flirting with her for about 60 seconds ask her, “Are You Single?” If she says Yes get her number immediately. If she says NO then just move on. That single bit of advice has helped me and my students get MASSIVE results because now you are SCREENING women and you can talk to more women in a shorter spanned of time.

    The second reason he probably is getting mediocre results is because he isn’t talking to enough women. I don’t care what anybody says cold approach women IS A NUMBERS GAME! There is no avoiding it, it’s just is what it is. Now what guys don’t understand it’s a numbers game with SKILL. That goes back to my point of having a plan which 99% of guys don’t have when they talk to women, they just wing it. When you wing it you can wing it results.

    Now from my experience and 5,000 plus approaches you have to approach 50 women a week and get 30 numbers a month in order to become a legit ladies man.

    So let’s say for example you approached 50 women a week which is 200 women a month. Out of those 200 women you got 30 numbers, which is very realistic if you are screening women. 30 numbers a month is 360 numbers a year.

    The average close ratio for phone numbers when you first start out should be around 3 to 5 percent. Let’s say you only close at 3 percent, 3 percent of 360 is 10 new lays in a year. That’s almost 1 new girl a month, not bad at all. Let’s say you converted 5 percent, 5 percent of 360 is 18 new lays in a year. That is almost 2 new girls a month, which is good.

    Now you may be thinking that’s not a lot of women however that is more women than 99 percent of men will ever sleep with in their lifetime. According to the National Center For Health Statics men have an average of 7 sex partners in their entire life so 10 or 18 women in one year is nothing to sneeze at.

    In order to have that type of success you have to go out CONSISTENTLY and I can tell you that most guys don’t but bitch and complain about not getting results. I hear these complaints every month I coach a new student and once I break the number down and the ones who start going out consistently and having a plan they MAGICALLY start to have women in their life. You have to put in the work, just like anything else in life. The cool thing is once you start gaining traction with women you don’t have to approach as many and go out as much. Hope that helps.

  84. The 2 options in the post can be thought of as 2 ends of the spectrum, where you land can be adjusted by you and how much energy/effort you want to pursue each.

    Most things in life aren’t a binary (yes/no, black/white, go/stop) scenario, sometimes you may focus more on yourself at other times you may go to the other end . At some point you’ll learn balance (thru trial and error) and find the sweet spot, the right mix of focus on self and women. To me its a spectrum.

    Checking out of the SMP and labelling yourself MGTOW could be another buffer. You have to be in it, to win it. What ever you want to achieve will take work, time and at every turn there’s a proverbial brick wall to smash thru. Onwards and Upwards.

  85. @ Eric Castenada

    So let’s say it’s a minimum of 2000 hours to achieve mastery using your approach. That’s one full of year at 40 hours a week. Or the equivalent of 2000 hours of overtime. If a guy makes 40k a year that’s a financial opportunity cost of 60k. Even spread out over 5 years that’s 12k per year.

    Good pussy rents for $250 an hour. So over a five year period you ten new lays per year at 400 hours per year or 12k lost income is more expensive.

    All for pussy.

    I’m not saying it doesn’t work but it hardly seems worth it.

    And your suggested approach rate has me approaching every woman of legal age in an 40 mile radius in the first 15 months.

  86. @Octavian

    -Nope. The Default state of FEMALES is perpetual discontent….

    A man without a woman in his life, no matter the time period, can devote himself to knowing himself. A man alone can in fact achieve contentment with whatever circumstance he decides. If things are not favorable, he is flexible enough to make them so.

    Would you agree that the status of learning about yourself is a state of discontent? If you lack knowledge that you desire to have, you’re not content with what you know.

    I would submit that Men experience the same (very) human state of discontent from a very different perspective. Just because the classic cultural definition of discontent is not being contented with the material wealth available to you does not mean that men do not also experience a form of discontent.

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