Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:
It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:
1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.
2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.
Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.
So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?
Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.
That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.
I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.
And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.
So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?
I touched on this in Vulnerability:
The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”
The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.
The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.
In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.
Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.
With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:
1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.
I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.
Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:
III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority
Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.
What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.
There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:
Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.
You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.
The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.
Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.
If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.
The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.
So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?
I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.
With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.
The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.
I’d also say it’s a mix of the two. From one side you can concentrate on your goals and that in fact makes you more attractive to an average woman. Also, when you are confident you go and ask women out – if they accept then fine, if not- hey, it’s not a tragedy. You just move along. It is a numbers game because attraction is not a choice. If you meet 10 women let’s say 7 would be indifferent, two slightly interested and one probably really interested. If you meet 100 women – you have 10 times more chances… Read more »
“Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. ” It gets to you sometimes – specifically the toying part. ” I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.” Exactly. You have to wait for things to come to you. I had this attitude with women and always wondered when I would meet that girl. Law 18 contradicts the entire concept of Monk-mode. These days its simply used as an excuse not to interact with the outside world and specifically to avoid possible uncomfortable situations.… Read more »
In reading this blog essay I kept waiting for the message of the last two paragraphs. And the message was delivered. High five Rollo.
Strength (physical, intellectual and monetary)
Courage (have a mission and die when you are done)
Mastery (be very good at a few core things and then some other)
Honor (be a man that other men would have in their gang, willingly)
Be good at being a man and have intrinsic value.
Learn game and have red pill awareness.
Enough is never enough – until it is. “The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom for it is only when you have had too much do you know how much is enough.” Wm. Blake. I have a work which I enjoy greatly. About every three months or so I’d get to hankering for pussy. I would then find some girls who were interested by various means and do a rotation until I scored. That method would work quite well when I was outside of a social circle. If I was in one it just required focusing on… Read more »
i’m struck by how far simple maleness needs to be adeptly deconstructed here (seemingly to the molecular level) in order to achieve a minor baseline for the average man to begin to move forward.
entire LIVES lived in slavery to the matrix and it’s institutions…gov’t. marriage, corporate patricians.
it’s literally an equal skill set these days to write computer code and change a tire. think of the utter lack of humanity in that?
pity is really all I have left to feel.
“i’m struck by how far simple maleness needs to be adeptly deconstructed here (seemingly to the molecular level) in order to achieve a minor baseline for the average man to begin to move forward.”
Nice insightful statement Tilikum. I’d attribute it to the fog of war and I would also pity the man who says “why do my eyes hurt” because he never used them.
Rollo – “You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.”
But there must be enough successes to determine the qualitative difference between success and failure. Also, success must be frequent enough to compare the processes that lead to success versus those that lead to failure.
If all one experiences is rejection and failure then one only learns how to lose. Leaning to win absolutely requires a few actual wins if for no other reason than to motivate one to suffer the defeats in between.
As you point out, there are more than one camp withing MGTOW. The ones that don’t write women off entirely are the primary subjects here. I’ve never taken their statements of being outcome independant as anything other than regaining their frame and taking women off the pedistal. Perhaps they use different words, but I believe the intent is the same. The only difference is such a MGTOW seems to be a recovering beta, where guys like Rollo, never gave up their frame to begin with. It’s just a different perspective on the same topic.
Serious question: Is there literally any state of mind a man could have that you would not dismiss or classify as a buffer against rejection? If so, what is it?
Either-or question strikes me as a false dichotomy with an insufficient understanding of time preferences. Too much wanting to have your cake and eat it too – and right now! Instead, treat yourself as a medium to long-term investment. That is to say don’t completely exit the game — practice and learn even though the returns might be small for now — but focus on building and improving both your abilities and position for the future.
Brilliant post, Rollo. It’s like you were reading my mind while writing this one.
Think about Michael Jordan or a man like him “in the zone”. Basketball, golf, soccer, a man’s work, socializing, hunting, farming Etc. A man can be in the zone and not have buffers while accomplishing his goal. In the zone equals no buffers. Not worried about failure, so no buffers needed.
@Is This Thing On Even the mighty Rollo lost frame with his BPD girlfriend. He just didn’t use that failure as a portent to exit the game for good. From what I can tell, he took it as an object lesson and a launch point to make sure such a thing never happened to him again. Thoreau (himself an MGTOW) made a simultaneous argument for AND against the MGTOW philosophy. It’s complicated…thus rich soil for a serious discussion here. “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you… Read more »
I posit that MGTOW qualifies as a “desperate thing.” Let the bullets fly…
The Diplomat – “I posit that MGTOW qualifies as a ‘desperate thing.'”
I posit all positions qualify as desperate expect for the very few actual winners.
And, I will not argue that a certain varying level of despair lies behind RP aware participation in game. It comes with the territory.
“Define “winner.”” That would be a man who has real power.
“Real Power is the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we actually control the directions of our lives.”–Tomassi, Rollo
I think what’s happening here is the distinction of RP concepts and then practical use of the strategies in the real world. When theories are defined in the Manosphere its easier to just issue extreme opposites because it helps to better visualise and explain what it actually is. I see the FI as constantly changing and adapting, there would be no way to properly compare defined even game tactics with every interaction with a female. These are the kinds of postings I enjoy the most because it directly relates to the agents, especially in keeping your frame.
Well, then…for better or for worse, we’re all “winners.” Barring biological misfortunes or unforeseen plane crashes, etc.
Not a bit of both … it IS both. Thought Experiment: Does Larry Ellison need “Game”? of course not he is a Mufti-Billionaire with a passing resemblance to Tony Stark. If you are very interesting or very wealthy you don’t need Game… the Female circus come to you. If you are not interesting or wealthy you need Game Help… pure and simple. MGTOW is a fine ideal but … much like a fisherman without a net, what do you do when you hook one? Game is all about what you do AFTER first attraction happens. So yes MGTOW works up… Read more »
Might want to reset the goalposts or stop using the term “winner.” Nobody gets out of here alive.
“…Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with.” There is a fundamental flaw in this reasoning. Allow me to illustrate: I became a MGHOW following years of dating, short term relationships and one long term relationship. Only then did I rediscover my mission(s) in life; competing in biathlon, drumming in a jazz band, learning philosophy and being able to limit my time in the office by dramatically cutting my lifestyle costs. None of those missions attract women. So are you suggesting that I alter my… Read more »
So the physique you’ve developed to be competing in a biathlon doesn’t attract women?
The social proof and creative interest of being a jazz drummer doesn’t attract women?
The Amused Mastery that comes as an extension of learning philosophy isn’t attractive to women?
Perhaps it’s you who deserves the D- for execution.
I don’t know that I’d qualify Outcome Independence as a buffer. I think Stoicism dictates a level of it in response to all things in life, for the simple fact that it’s necessary to maintain coherent thought about a problem. Becoming distraught about every failure would be more destructive than never feeling any pain at all over failure. I know because that’s exactly how I used to be. I think the aim for OI in the ‘sphere is because so many men have so much experience with the incredible pain one feels in completely lacking it. I know that’s the… Read more »
And it’s usually a number game finding those hot girls that want to enter you frame.
If we’re being fair, in a lot of places it’s a numbers game finding a woman attractive enough to even start approaching. Where I am right now, it’s wall to wall whales with the occasional skinny 5-6 that thinks she’s a 9. I think I see a genuine 9 once every 2-3 months. Tops.
i don’t think you should get serious with a girl until you are a)confident with your future/career (you know it will happen or it is happening) b) you are ready to be married and have kids. This is from the logistically male state
The problem with MGTOWs is that they make not making women their mission their mission.
@sun wukong that last post wasn’t at you we posted at the same time. No I agree with you. Even I’m in a top 10 size city and the girls are too chubby for me or something idk ha. And I’m age mid 20s. My plan is to just focus on my career path/med school and game girls for the occasional fling or something. I do feel like I’m missing some sort of intammacy aspect in my life tho as corny as that sounds. That’s really what drives me to want to have a serious girl in my life. But… Read more »
Personally, considering all these things: acquiring/consolidating real power in a meaningful way, obtaining outcome independence while still regularly bedding attractive women, internalizing RP awareness and not losing one’s will to thrive or creativity, staying on mission despite naturally occurring existential RP despair, having a reasonably satisfying “journey” (because when the end comes, that IS the destination) in this life, and juggling what one knows vs. what there is still to learn, I choose to be exceptional in my efforts on behalf of these worthy goals and constantly learning–rather than to haplessly throw myself into an oubliette while praying that the… Read more »
March 1st, 2015 at 9:40 pm
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. – Robert A. Heinlein
March 1st, 2015 at 10:39 pm
I think failure is the wrong word. In “the zone” you correct errors. Being an engineer I think PID loops. With that “control equation” it is all about correcting errors in accordance with the process.
You start by getting into the proportional zone. Then you continually adjust the control effort to apply as little correction as you can to stay centered.
That was my castigation of MGTOW. Proudly proclaiming that you’ve “chosen radical invisibility and brokenness” when you’re already invisible and broken is no feat. I don’t fault them for their choices–many poor choices are made out of anger or despair–but please don’t insult us all by claiming that you’re making some kind of conscientious abdication.
March 1st, 2015 at 11:34 pm
March 2nd, 2015 at 1:15 am
Desperation is being outside the proportional zone. Outside that zone maximum effort seems to have no effect.
March 2nd, 2015 at 1:19 am
Proudly proclaiming that you’ve “chosen radical invisibility and brokenness” when you’re already invisible and broken is no feat.
Yeah. That has been my take on MGTOW.
This particular article by Rollo really set me off for a number of reasons. I didn’t realize I felt this strongly. I suppose I’m just bone-weary of the MGTOW evangelists coming in here and rationalizing their crushed-beta simpering as some kind of conscious alpha move on their part. It’s neither radical, nor is it revolutionary. Why can’t they just say “I gave up,” or “I felt I couldn’t compete, so I stopped trying.” That would at least be honest–and I would probably respect that. And who knows…? It might even give the community a genuine shot at triage on the… Read more »
@Diplomat, I’m more hopeful for MGTOWs than MRAs. Most MGTOW guys at least understand and reject the fallacy of egalitarian equalism.
@The Diplomat I would probably respect that. Regardless of respect or not, I’d at least understand the sentiment. It makes sense. “Fuck me I’ve wasted my whole life on this point of view that put me actively working against myself. I feel physically exhausted just thinking about it. I’m going to call it quits.” I’ve had days I felt that way. Still do occasionally. Learning this shit wears on you deep down. I can understand people saying “I can’t do it.” I can’t understand them claiming it’s some kind of ultimate alpha. It’s not. Nobody calls the male that got… Read more »
Well said. And by “respect” I merely meant “due regard,” not “admiration.”
M. Simon – “Desperation is being outside the proportional zone. Outside that zone maximum effort seems to have no effect.”
This is what economists call a misallocation of resources. Individually a misallocation of time, energy, and varying degrees of money, and a basic misunderstanding of the markets we a dealing in.
Wonderful Post Rollo, thanks. For me it has been a life of trial and error (trial and success). Some interactions work well. Maybe not forever. When they end it’s not necessarily failure. Just time to move on. I’ve always had my own mission going anyway. Care to ride along? Fine. Not? OK. I don’t know that it’s possible to puzzle it all out and then go do it right. It has to be played as the cards fall. And every hand you are dealt (every woman) is different. Several LTRs over a lifetime dealt up some pretty strong lessons. While… Read more »
@ Sun Wukong How much of the exhaustion is caused by the sense that the rewards don’t merit the effort? That’s my problem. After accepting the realities of what actually is there is a practical burden of material performance that is increasingly difficult to achieve in this society. Playing the game, unlike golf, is not fun in and of itself. It’s work, and it barely pays off. So whereas the militant MGTOWs have abandoned all hope, there is the other group of Enjoy The Decline which has abandoned the material expectations of society, and plays the game strictly for temporary… Read more »
@chairborne wrote these words to Rollo:
Or maybe work more hours so I can afford to peacock my wealth to attract a… You get B+ for effort, but only D- for execution.
Has @chairborne read this post about how Rollo Tomassi handled things at 26?
The most talented, most successful and most wealthy are constantly enhancing their gifts and talents.
They do not trade time for money.
Working more hours isn’t what has made them wealthy.
They use money to buy time.
Do not agree to some points. Fitstly, outcome independance is not a binary opposite between “feodora show off, but cry in pillow at night when alone” and “really be like that”. Trying to support that with the leftist double-bind of “if there realky was (no) X, you wozldn’t talk about X (but let just us do all the talking)” doesn’t make that true, either. Outcome independance starts the same as any other game move for non-alphas: You learn it, fake it, make and then it IS who you are. Bonus points: As long as OI is a (badly) put up… Read more »
For men in a bad sexual situation, trying to improve, socializing and disovering your way in life is the best option. They will improve with women as a side effect. But some men are really hopeless. A small percentage (1-4%), but a big overall number anyway. For them, GTOW isolationist-mode is the best option. All my life I’ve been a beta (omega) and a complete failure with women. I come from a slightly disfunctional family. Lost my virginity at 27 with a hooker and took me 5 more years for my first free fuck. My heart’s been badly broken too… Read more »
Roissy, You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality. Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. and Rollo, I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. This isn’t always true, and the root of this view is false. I personally know many religious (priests, brothers) who have given up women (and wealth/power) altogether, and have found a deep spiritual peace, one that you can actually see and experience by merely talking with them. So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and… Read more »
They are still subject to women’s influence. Even if I believed the sexual component of that influence weren’t an issue for them, they still must interact with the Feminine Imperative on a societal level. They may not be directly, sexually, influenced by women, but they most definitely are dealing with women’s influence and the men who are influenced by them.
From the Op: Pandora – “You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you.” This is incomplete and deeply flawed advice. It should read: “You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life, that women are interested in, and women will come to you if you gain common/popular social status from those interests.” If your interests are beta, your status will be as well no matter how dedicated you are to that mission. Killing the inner beta also involves killing the outer beta. The… Read more »
The problem with ‘playing the game’ and it’s exponents is that it doesn’t take into consideration the sexual stratification of the mating market and the FI’s exacerbation of the haves and have nots. Also of note is the life stage of men and their differing goals. The top 20% don’t need the advice, the next 40% could do with it but the bottom 40% are in a right pickle. For a young man sarging would be the best advice but for a man over 40 time is his most valuable commodity. Serial Polygny has created a bind, it’s really a… Read more »
[…] The Isolationists | […]
I agree that it is both. The advantage of OI is simply reducing subjective costs to (ideally) zero. Something that is reduced to zero is simply no ruling factor in your life. Simple example: a) Meet Hb – date – KC is blocked. You have honestly forgotten about the event two days later, until a random conversation brings up that she is”upset” b/c you never contacted herafterwards. b) Meet Hb – date – KC is blocked. After four posts in different forums, you tell yourself that she was UG anyway and you were not interested, also you tell everybody who… Read more »
The previous posts that point out women do the choosing are important to remember. MGTOW is really the only answer for those who are not chosen. It is a way to stop the bleeding so to speak. After they have worked on themselves for their own benefit, at some point they may start getting IOI. At that point they can re-assess. The reality is at least 50% of men are never going to be selected in any alpha sort of way, probably at any point in there lives. Can anyone here offer those guys better advice than MGTOW? Anyone who… Read more »
Romantic love is a delusion, fallacy, illusion, myth, etc., and a very harmful one at that. Men and women were not meant to be in a long term pair bond. Marriage is an artificial social construct which is unnatural and destructive in reality. Grow up and get over it. The ancient Romans and Greeks had the right attitude: Sex was just like any other bodily function, like eating, drinking, using the toilet, etc. Treat it as such. Your life will be much healthier and more balanced. This is the reality of life unfortunately. Go use an escort (they’re legal, young… Read more »
The thrill of the hunt is the answer. Some men like to hunt. A day in the woods is better even if you come back empty handed that going to a game preserve and bagging a dozen phesant that have had their wings clipped. The game farm might be fun a few times or every once in a while, but eventually you want to go out and test your metal.
Great post, like the first commenter said, it’s a mix of two. Like “inner” and “outer” game, you work on both concurrently. Approach women while becoming a more physically fit, intelligent, wealthy and thus confident man. I remember thinking that the “outcome independence” mindset never quite sat well with me. I’ve learned to be indifferent towards individual rejections, but I am highly outcome independent on getting laid, finding a girlfriend, etc. when I set that as my goal. Recently, a month of heavy approaching didint produce the results I wanted so I reflected, refocused and now have 5 dates lined… Read more »
Thrill of the hunt: I enjoy a good nature hike. I’m a gun nut and love shooting. Nothing better than wild game for cooking. Still haven’t figured out to do with antelope. Yet I don’t enjoy hunting at all. Nothing more aggravating than wasting time and money while freezing to death to carry around a rifle I likely won’t get to fire all so I can stop at the grocery store to buy the meat I didn’t kill. Now give a box or two of 22lr and turn me lose on a prairie dog down and kill furry critters until… Read more »
Generally I don’t care for “one size fits all” type of approaches — as in “all men must do X” or “all men do X or else they’re fake men” or what have you. I agree that most guys who go MGTOW are the ones who were not getting the results they wanted. I think more of them would do well to admit that — there would probably be less tension that way between the various parts of the manosphere — but I suspect their unwillingness to do so stems from pride more than anything else. From my perspective, a… Read more »
The only winners in the sexual market are men either as evil as women know themselves to be or able to fake such. That is the bottom line. Some women are even self aware enough to realize it but still don’t stop giving it away to douchebags while friend zoning any man who takes beta bait and shows himself to not be dark triad. Even if the beta is upper beta with confidence and looks.
“The only winners in the sexual market are men either as evil as women know themselves to be or able to fake such.” Apply red pill razor: Be evil. Clever evil, not “stupid and get caught/thrown out of desirable society”-evil. Outcome independance is a natural consequence of being “evil” as defined by the old set of books/rules, where women are dpicted ON A PURLY FICTIONAL LEVEL EXPLICITY AVOIDING ANY ANDF ALL EMPIRICAL DESCRIBTION OF THEIR SEXUAL BEHAVIOUR as something “special”, as “humans with just a few parts different”, “vulnerable/valuable”-combo etc. pp. @ “Not hunting, but blood sport”: I fully agree.… Read more »
How an alpha holds frame:
” I think apart from the conscious MGTOWs is a larger number of guys who know they have shitty traits (a part of those traits is a lesser ability and willingness to change), and just kind of give up after a while, without declaring themselves anything in particular. I think this is to be expected for the people who — based on their shitty traits — are poorly set up to compete and also poorly set up to improve themselves so as to compete — they don’t have the traits to support that enterprise. I’m not surprised that they give… Read more »
Well, but if they are damaging as unconscious MGTOWs and yet don’t have the traits to successfully execute a red pill program, wouldn’t we be better off if they were conscious MGTOWs? I don’t see how we get there by saying that all MGTOWs are pussies.
People need to experience success rather than failure
As a MGTOW I have found ‘indifference’ very useful. Yes I would ‘like’ a girl to date and have sex with, but I can live my life without them. The standard PUA NEEDS a women, so he comes off desperate, with me I am not caught up on the ‘success’ so naturally more relaxed.
I dont like seeing RP labeled as some form of desperation. Being a beta or MGTOW is desperate. I dont ever feel desperation anymore now that Im 100% red pill. I think some mistake the calculated risks we take and assume there is an undertone of desperation. I look at sex and dating as my own personal business. Maximize my margins, dont waste my efforts, take informed and calculated risks, and reap the rewards accordingly. Make women desperate…to enter your frame/pants party hahaha
I largely agree with the premise of this article. However, I tend to view outcome independence as an important component of interacting with any given woman. From a macro-perspective, most men want to succeed with women, and shouldn’t have outcome independence in terms of their long-term success. But when approaching a random woman, etc, that particular interaction should mean to the man in terms of results.
There’s two components where I disagree.There are environments where men simply dont have the social or legal security to approach or interact with women except in VERY specific circumstances. Regardless of how well adjusted a man may be in his head, if he games a woman in the wrong place at the wrong time it can torpedo his life. Great example-in the military, the culture is paradoxically just as feminist matriarchial as a typical American left leaning university. A man who dates a woman and displeases her in some way ;say not agreeing to an exclusive relationship, faces being charged… Read more »
@Anon: “The only winners in the sexual market are men either as evil as women know themselves to be or able to fake such. That is the bottom line. Some women are even self aware enough to realize it but still don’t stop giving it away to douchebags while friend zoning any man who takes beta bait and shows himself to not be dark triad. Even if the beta is upper beta with confidence and looks.” As with Rollo’s OP focusing on Outcome Independence and the IDGAF attitude, I think you can be a winner (or have OI and IDGAF)… Read more »
Roosh on Outcome Independence: http://www.rooshv.com/outcome-independence-leads-to-failure Let me ask you this: were important men of history outcome independent? Was Alexander the Great outcome independent when he decided to conquer the world? Was Hitler outcome independent when he wanted to conquer Europe? Was Theodore Roosevelt outcome independent when he wanted to be the most badass US president the country has ever seen? Was Martin Luther King, Jr outcome independent when he wanted to eliminate segregation in the South? What happened when these men suffered a set back to their goals? Did they say, “Oh, no problem, maybe I’ll have some better luck… Read more »
@BigAl I dont ever feel desperation anymore now that Im 100% red pill. Exactly. One point: I’m a Natural Alpha (Thank you to Dannyfrom504). I would have never thought that without studying Red Pill. For me, “Do Your Own Thing” always resulted in Free Pussy. Until it didn’t. The dry spells… I had no control over them. Sometimes I got laid a lot, and sometimes I didn’t get laid at all. I was thoroughly Blue Pill, but I’ve always been what women describe as an “asshole”, and I knew that if a girl I was talking to called me a… Read more »
So long as women work outside the home in this modern economy equalitarian equalism is here to stay. The ultimate threat point is the ability to destroy a man’s most basic survival necessity; his job/career. In a world where BigCorps employees are 24/7 unpaid PR reps, and image is everything, men will be under the FI’s thumb until something breaks in permanent and lasting way. The real war between the sexes is in the traditional economy not in the SMP/MMP.
@Octavian “Great example-in the military, the culture is paradoxically just as feminist matriarchial as a typical American left leaning university.” An alpha (or Sigma) wouldn’t be caught DEAD in the .mil so it’s a non-issue. You are committing a massive category error and conflating situational Alpha with true Alpha. The military is for high functioning Betas (read: systems operators) who thrive on group think and drone reasoning. True Alpha looks a metric shit ton more like ISIS, the Nazi’s, etc. American Betas MUST team up to destroy the interlopers with no rules. The smart money for a true Alpha/Sigma is… Read more »
Octavian, I think “dont shit where you eat” definitely overrides everything. I watched a friend do it and it blew up in his face
Badpainter March 2nd, 2015 at 2:26 am Not understanding PID controllers you missed my “seems”. Example: you have a bucked with a 1 oz per minute leak (well it is not actually like that as the leak is proportional to how full the bucket is – but humor me) and supply 1/2 oz per minute. The bucket remains empty. Now supply the bucket with 1 1/2 oz per minute and the bucket starts to fill. That means there is a threshold for effect. The 1/2 oz per minute effort is not wasted if you can add another 1/2+ oz per… Read more »
I should state for the record I’m not down on MGTOWs in general. Like I said I think there’s more RP hope for them than MRAs stuck in a mindset that their efforts in egalitarian equalism will ever produce what they think it will. I get why MGTOW seems like a viable option, but you never exit the game. Even if they’re dealing with their mothers, sisters or coworkers they’re going to ‘deal’ with women. I don’t regard the Red Pill as a movement or some factional alignment of men. Whether you identify as MRA, MGTOW, PUA or anything else… Read more »
With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction. Actually, I would think that waiting for women to appreciate men is like waiting around for the Moon to crash into Earth. Not only is it not going to happen in your lifetime, it’s not going to… Read more »
March 2nd, 2015 at 11:46 am
Never had that problem. So much so that I frequently (when the opportunity arose) introduced my current GF to my former GF(s).
The fm has met 3 or 4 of my former GFs. With one of them she was on good terms for a number of years. So much so that we both got invited to the former GF’s wedding. And the fm babysat for the former GF until we moved to a different town.
I’m going to cross-pollinate here because I think these guys deserve the opportunity to explain their take on MGTOW:
Please have a look at these comments.
Nova, So, while I do agree that it is not good that MGTOWs make mostly unsupportable claims about why they are choosing to do what they do (for the most part it’s their way of dealing with failure, and it would be better to admit that), I do think that a certain percentage of the male population is going to be “de facto” MGTOW, even if they do not wear that label or even know what it means. In any free market system, there is a certain percentage who will be losers, and the SMP is no exception to that.… Read more »
March 2nd, 2015 at 12:09 pm
The military is for high functioning Betas (read: systems operators) who thrive on group think and drone reasoning.
Drone reasoning may work for staff. It does not work for line. And in combat it doesn’t even work well for staff.
My experience in the military was that about 50% were Alpha. But it may have been my unit. Still….
mdavid March 2nd, 2015 at 12:35 pm If you want pussy you focus on how to get pussy. If you want to raise your own food you focus on farming. If you want to program computers you focus on how they work. Of course if you want to farm, focusing on chips (transistors, gates, latches, registers, stacks, etc.) may not be the most effective way to go about it. But to say a focus on women is misdirected is non-sense on stilts. Depends on what you want to accomplish. I like pussy. Learning how pussy works has been very helpful… Read more »
@Tilikum. The military isnt composed exclusively of betas, not by a looooong shot.Of course the Alphas dont exactly have long careers given modern social mores in the DoD, but thats not the same as zero. In any event, the point still stands-a man may find himself in a circumstance where hitting the “pause” button on his social life is a logical idea. Insofar as MGTOW goes, we should remember that Red Pill awareness involves some degree of pain, and the amount is a purely individual setup.Some guys like myself manage to get out financially and socially unscathed.Most dont-the majority of… Read more »
March 2nd, 2015 at 12:35 pm
Your advice is just wonderful.
Traditional women – you probably can’t find one and they are the best option so forget figuring out how women work generally and get your rainbow unicorn – guaranteed to make you happy.
The odds imp[rove greatly if you can figure out how to make used pussy commit to you alone. It is a skill and can be taught. It is especially useful where unicorns are rare.
March 2nd, 2015 at 12:53 pm
RP need not involve pain if learned early enough. I taught all 3 of my boys RP. The 1st daughter is resisting – but she hasn’t hit the wall yet. She models (a 9.5 at least) in her spare time so it may be a while.
I’ve been accused of being an “isolationist” for my MGTOW experience. However, I see that folks zero-in on certain situational elements to support the “running away from failure” angle. In my case, when I discovered that I was living in the matrix, it was at a time where I was able to make sweeping changes to my life, not just with my interactions with women. It should be said, and this is one of those convenient situational elements, that I had been with about 150 women, in several states, but was left wanton for some quality. SEE!!! SEE!!! You’re running… Read more »
@Vulpine, good to have you here man, it’s been a while.
@Rollo: “They are still subject to women’s influence. Even if I believed the sexual component of that influence weren’t an issue for them, they still must interact with the Feminine Imperative on a societal level. They may not be directly, sexually, influenced by women, but they most definitely are dealing with women’s influence and the men who are influenced by them.” I’m no MGOTW-member and don’t come from that direction…but again, what you state is sound rhetorically, yet misses the pragmatic social possibilities of today’s fractured social world. One yould build the same statement with any (loosly defined) ideology or… Read more »
@The Diplomat “I choose to be exceptional in my efforts on behalf of these worthy goals” What do you want? A merit badge? Nobody cares. “and constantly learning–rather than to haplessly throw myself into an oubliette while praying that the world above burns to the ground.” It’s already burning to the ground. Take a look around. In fact, that’s the whole reason the manosphere exists at all. It’s burning to the ground. We have a failed culture which can no longer produce social structures and norms which make things that are basic to psychological and emotional well being possible. Your… Read more »
@Rollo :”The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. ” -Nope. The Default state of FEMALES is perpetual discontent. The nature of hypergamy means no woman can ever be happy what she has. An evolutionary advantage considering contentment means she’s passing up chances to enhance her and her offspring’s standard of living. In turn, the perpetuated discontent she feels is transfered to the man.Every man ive known in a committed relationship-including myself in the recent past-has felt pressure to continually evolve materially . Not because… Read more »
@Octavian, you should read the link in that quote:
“Women make men crazy” Actually, I have not been crazy about any woman for years – since I started figuring out how they worked. First, I considered that a great price to be paid – you simply can’t be crazy about a randomly-charged hypergamous siganl carrying drone…and you can’t really control your interactions with women until you “just get that”. But you achieve something more: Freedom. There really is no downside to it all, once you get past the point of mewling over the fact that AFC-love is unreal/a individually dysfunctional illusion. (Although it has great evolotiunary value on a… Read more »
“Oh, what makes it worth it is relationships you have with women? What would women have to offer you other than sex if half the shit you guys argue here about female nature is true?[…]” You pose two basic questions. The questions are valid from my point of view. My answers: 1) Alpha-fux-reaction = not sex, but mind-exploding-sex. Regular sex is uninteresting, a perfect masturbation session would perhaps supply more pure bodyliy satisfaction at zero dollars than a hooker. 2) “If this is how women really are, then what possible relationship is there with them?” –> That of of master… Read more »
I’ve been here: reading, nodding and smiling.
Props, man. Congrats, even.
I agree with @Rollo on the point that there needs to be a balance. Being a dating coach and coaching guys that is what they lack most. They do one of the two extremes. They make pickup their life and that is all they do or they focus on their career and rarely go out. Either one works, you have to go out there and approach women and still focus on your mission. It’s not easy but it can be done. To the guy who in your post @Rollo said that he has been going out and getting mediocre I… Read more »
The 2 options in the post can be thought of as 2 ends of the spectrum, where you land can be adjusted by you and how much energy/effort you want to pursue each. Most things in life aren’t a binary (yes/no, black/white, go/stop) scenario, sometimes you may focus more on yourself at other times you may go to the other end . At some point you’ll learn balance (thru trial and error) and find the sweet spot, the right mix of focus on self and women. To me its a spectrum. Checking out of the SMP and labelling yourself MGTOW… Read more »
If you don’t believe approaching women is a numbers game with skill and by screening check out Chris of Good Looking Loser experiment when he approached 100 in one week.
@ Eric Castenada So let’s say it’s a minimum of 2000 hours to achieve mastery using your approach. That’s one full of year at 40 hours a week. Or the equivalent of 2000 hours of overtime. If a guy makes 40k a year that’s a financial opportunity cost of 60k. Even spread out over 5 years that’s 12k per year. Good pussy rents for $250 an hour. So over a five year period you ten new lays per year at 400 hours per year or 12k lost income is more expensive. All for pussy. I’m not saying it doesn’t work… Read more »
@Octavian -Nope. The Default state of FEMALES is perpetual discontent….A man without a woman in his life, no matter the time period, can devote himself to knowing himself. A man alone can in fact achieve contentment with whatever circumstance he decides. If things are not favorable, he is flexible enough to make them so. Would you agree that the status of learning about yourself is a state of discontent? If you lack knowledge that you desire to have, you’re not content with what you know. I would submit that Men experience the same (very) human state of discontent from a… Read more »
M. Simon, Your advice is just wonderful. Traditional women – you probably can’t find one and they are the best option so forget figuring out how women work generally and get your rainbow unicorn – guaranteed to make you happy LOL. My advice is useful only for traditional, religious men (my reply was to Nova, who fits this bill). I offer men like yourself no advice whatsoever except to have low expectations for intimate female relationships. Females unleashed from family and culture are not very inspiring. I disagree my advice is unicorn territory. It has worked for many I know,… Read more »
OT… has anyone caught up with the U.S. version of “House of Cards” ? There are scenes in the new season that come across like they were written by people in the manosphere. It was almost shocking to see.
@Badpainter you have to make sacrifices in life if you want something bad enough. You won’t have to go out and approach women for 5 years. If you choose to you can but you don’t have to. Most guys I coach go out for a year or two 3 nights a week. Are they going to lose opportunity of course that what it takes however I can tell you from the guys that I coached who are successful (millionaires and multi-millionaires) they have money but they are LONELY ass hell and they are quite miserable. Good pussy may rent for… Read more »
@Jeremy Its not a state of discontent, its a state of growth driven by challenge .An altogether different concept entirely from the reproduction-centric state of constant discontent women experience. A good way to put it -A USN BUD/S cadre instructor was once asked why his unit called training exercises “evolutions”. In essence, his response was challenging yourself to do what you believed going in you couldnt constitutes an evolution of your character. Further-philosphically and practically a man can choose to feel discontent or not. I might feel it a discontentful state that my Netflix wont work, until I read about… Read more »
@BP & Eric… The relative value you place on women being in your life is a direct reflection of how you feel women have treated you in the past. It is going to be different for everyone because everyone has had a (presumably) quite different life to this point. Men who had good mothers who did not abuse them in any way, and good sisters will find themselves totally non-questioning w.r.t. having women in their life. They may have some blue-latent pill mindset’s to overcome, some date-coaching that is needed, but the value assigned to female company is worth it… Read more »