The Isolationists

isolation

Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:

It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.

Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.

That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.

I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.

So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

I touched on this in Vulnerability:

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.

Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.

With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.

Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.

There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.

The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.

The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.

With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

413 comments on “The Isolationists

  1. @Octavian

    …its a state of growth driven by challenge…

    Why grow? Why accept a challenge?

    We can fence over language, but that isn’t satisfying. I submit that the only reason men accept challenges is because there is some low-level yet deep-seated discontent with the self, and getting out of a comfort zone to demonstrate value is driven by that.

    Perfectly contented people do not accept challenges. Perfectly contented people do not grow. Only with the existence of discontent is action and growth a factor in our lives.

  2. @Jeremy I agree with you 100% A man has to move past his issues before he can have any success with women. Women can FEEL when you don’t like women. I remember when I had just broken up with my ex- girlfriend of 2 years and I immediately when out and tried to approach new women, I failed miserably.

    It wasn’t because I wasn’t good enough, looking back on it I had so much anger and hurt that still lingered from that relationship that it blocked me from being able to attract new women into my life. Once I moved passed that pain everything started to fall into place.

    When I’m coaching guys the ones who haven’t passed whatever pain they have with women STRUGGLE because they still have hate in their heart. We all know that anger and hate gives you a bad outlook on life and stops any progress you tried to make.

  3. It’s not hate or anger Eric, it’s self-preservation. It’s root is the preservation of self. It manifests as hate or anger, but that’s not what it is. In a sexually dimorphic species, each sex bases their value on how valuable for the reproduction of the species the other sex finds them. It could not be otherwise in a dominant species such as humans (or else we wouldn’t be dominant). Since we base our sexual self-value (and a large part of our own value) on what members of the opposite sex find in us, this makes all of us particularly vulnerable to abuse by the opposite sex. Abuse is perhaps too strong a word there, but the idea still works. Rollo’s post on “Buffers” talks about all of this in more relevant ways (http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/26/buffers/).

    Buffers wouldn’t exist if the tripwire that people have to get over were hate or anger. Buffers exist because rejection from the opposite sex always cuts very deep, it cuts down to our value as biological matter.

  4. I’ve been an isolationist my whole life. One of the sad things for me to see, though, is that men who feel this isolationist impulse are not getting one specific kind of advice that I think would serve them well. Yes, sex is something you desire; but there are higher things. Higher things. In these “manosphere” discussions even a refusal to chase pussy is construed in a merely negative sense. As the damage of feminism piles up, many of us will not be able to succeed. That is inevitable. What are you going to do instead? Channel that energy into something that will benefit mankind. Throughout history there are people who have done so. Kant, Nietzsche, so many other men never married. Their contribution to posterity was not children, but their ideas. The need for people like this has been recognized throughout history. Look at the Stoics. Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Cato the Younger. Boethius. The Desert Fathers, and monastics throughout the ages.

    My isolationist instincts were strong from the beginning. I ended up in relationships because girls pursued me. What I realized was that I was getting a certain type of girl, and if I wanted to be securely dominant in the relationship I would have to be active and she would have to be passive. Frankly, the results have always been abysmal. Just went through such a phase. Focused purely on my studies for the first year of law school, reasoning that grades were more important than anything. Blew up, starting asking girls out. Some of them came on to me. None got to the point of even actually completing a first date. That is when I came back to the manosphere – again. I realize I can’t waste time on chasing pussy. My work is more important. This is sad to me because I am, indeed, a romantic, and my first relationship truly fulfilled that ideal. I think I will never have that again. But every religious tradition has a mystical side, in which the most important love you will ever have is for the divine. These traditions are not an accident. And I found the truth in them even when I was with women – who never fully lived up to my ideal. They are just signs pointing us to something greater.

    The problem with you all is that you no longer have these options; you live in a thoroughly secularized society. So you don’t realize what it is you thirst for. You thirst for the divine.

    No woman will ever, ever be able to satisfy that thirst. It has nothing to do with the sexual revolution or feminism. It is a truth universally recognized in human history. And it is time for men to rediscover it, and set their sights higher.

  5. Becoming a celibate philosopher who anyone gives a damn about 50 years from now, let alone 2000+, is probably harder than winning the lottery.

    You might actually do better for yourself spilling your seed on random passerbys.

  6. chairborne Didn’t get what Rollo wrote:

    “Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with.”

    The point is not that the mission itself is appealing to women, it is that the MAN who is on mission is more appealing than a man who puts what women want ahead of his own self.

    The man on mission is setting his own self as his mental point of origin.
    The nature of that mission is a separate issue.

    I rejected the Deida folks’ insistence that a man has to sit in a cave for a month if necessary to figure out what his mission is. That’s because Deida had to dance around the harder truths to sell his stuff to the female new agers. I sensed that something about that advice was incomplete at best.

    Rollo gets straight to the point of what that is actually about. He also points out that pursuing some missions has side benefits of making a man more appealing in various ways.
    For that I’m grateful.

  7. @ rollo

    “Any sufficiently rational Red Pill observation is indistinguishable from hate to a Blue Pill conditioned mindset.”

    This sir, is the sum takeaway from the comment storms in these last few threads in a nutshell.

    I continue to hope its the drop in T from colder weather that will re-manifest itself in how should I say, less pansy Red Pill regurgitation that has filled the comment section the last few weeks.

    Vitamin D supplements and lots a bacon in the winter boys, you’ll be much less likely to mortgage your masculinity this way.

  8. “Rollo did not misunderstand MGTOW. Misunderstanding implies that he can actually change his mind. Men like Rollo or Roosh, they are at their core, white knights who learned to attract women. They are manginas who learned Game.”

    LOL, people are going off on that MGTOW forum. MGTOW’s are like feminists, they are unable to perform in the SMP so they give up and then bash the high performers for doing so well. Well, more pussy for me.

    1. I wouldn’t have linked the MGTOW forum thread if my mind couldn’t be changed. Like I said, it’s been my experience that there are MGTOW who are married or in LTRS who put themselves as their mental point of origin and there are isolationist MGTOWs who will retard themselves from really understanding intersexual dynamics.

  9. Various writers have crunched the numbers to show that financially, escorts are the lowest cost-per-fuck way to go (cheaper than both PU and/or marriage) if getting your load off with a woman who won’t stay around and need cuddling, breakfast, and post-sex niceties is what you’re after.

  10. @ Jack Lebear “it is that the MAN who is on mission is more appealing than a man who puts what women want ahead of his own self”

    And we return to the problem of defining a man’s mission by its worth to women, even at a remove.

    If we approach that phrase rationally, its a circular situation. Imagine how nonsensical it would be to say that I dont care what women think, so im going to buy a Maserati because women think wet thoughts about Maseratis. Im not buying the car to get laid, nuh-unh; but the exhaust note does happen to make women wet .

    To the Spartan pit with that notion. I go about my life decisions with at best tangental concern to the opposite gender, which in my experience is exponentially more then any woman will feel for us.

    The MGTOW attitude is twofold.One, there are men who are “in repair”; and they have a right to feel as they do. When a man is beaten and robbed on the street, hes got a right to feel pissed off. Folks dont say “well, dont let this stop you from visiting the ghetto!” If a man has his life ruined wholesale by women or a series of them, we shouldnt be surprised when he rationally decides playing Russian Roulette might be a preferable experience. I for one dont fault a guy for wanting to avoid the darker comsequences of interacting with women.

    That takes us to the next point-there are men out there getting laid-or maybe not-who are totally unaware of the megaton of shit that can land on a guy who crosses a female in the wrong circumstance. A lot of men have the “it cant happen to me” attitude WRT being falsely accused of rape, being hounded with a false DV complaint, being hit with an ‘oops’, and so forth. Its not an ironclad guarantee by any stretch that those things can happen, but dont be an idiot and buy into the hype that you can play women en masse and not get nailed. PUAs like to bury this under the rug-might hurt the bootcamp revenue if guys realize gaming the wrong girl could possibly land them in cuffs.

    Some men have found out the hard way , and are reasonably skittish about interacting with women afterward. A newbie at game who hasnt learned to read and calibrate his responses to women can easily end up on the wrong side of a “yes means yes” complaint after his first few approaches. A guy who’s gone through that wringer,or wants to avoid the same, again may rationally say reading “War and Peace” is a better idea then socializing with women.

    If dodging legal consequences makes a man “isolationist”, then every man who’s declined female advances at work is a man afraid of social interaction.Insert “(man up)” shaming phrase here.

  11. @ Tom

    Young, hot, Starbucks. Get the gold card, and refills on Green tea are free.

    Average CPL in April (the start month of Girlfriend season), May, June of 2012 was $3.18. LPM, 6.33. True, it was a particularly fruitful season opener, but you make hay while the sun shines.

  12. mdavid
    March 2nd, 2015 at 3:08 pm

    Funny that. I have a LTR with a woman going on 40+ years at this point. But I WAS spinning plates during our 10 year dating period.

    And 4 children.

    And the best part? SHE has bestitis for me. She can’t get enough. She tells me often she likes being my doormat. I’d rate her a 9 when we started going together. Slim with 42Ds. A nice handful. I have big hands. Just a tad short for my taste though. My minimum was 5’7″. She is 5’6″. Ah. well. And bright. I’d estimate at least 150 IQ. About 3 1/2 sigma from the human norm and about 4 sigma from the female norm. Say about 1 in 10,000+.

    But I always had a knack for bright and pretty women. My friends would often ask, “How did you get HER?” about the various women I was with at the time.

    But my criteria never included “inexperienced”. Not usual I’m sure. But it is what I wanted. Pretty much got everything except the height. And I was close there.

    The sons are all 6′ 4″ or better and #1 daughter is 6″ and a very bright stunner (9.5 at least – models in her spare time). Top of her ChemE class from a major University. #2 Son graduated with honors in the Russian language.from a very famous school. #3 son is an EE. And #1 son an artist.

    So how did I keep it going for 40+ years (so far)? GAME or if you prefer dominance. Taught to me by the 1st GF at age 18 (she was 22 and I was one of her plates). An interesting life so far.

    Game is more certain than finding the traditional unicorn.

  13. @Tom

    An escort feels to me like… masturbation with a live target.

    I suppose to me the point of learning from PUA is to be able to build the skills needed to deal with women in all aspects of life. If you can manipulate a woman to do the thing nature has conditioned her to refuse, everything else is easy. Getting laid in the process is just icing on the cake.

    Also, the times when my game has been on, it actually feels kind of awesome to be in the moment gaming a chick. A real boost to confidence. It just feels like shit when you’re failing or at least not progressing.

    That being said, there will always be a part of me that wants the skills to actually catch and keep a unicorn if I happen to run in to one. That’s something getting an escort won’t teach you. It requires practice with actual women under non-escort circumstances.

    Now if that’s a complete non-interest to a guy then absolutely escorts might be a good idea, but as mentioned previously make sure to factor in legal and social costs if they aren’t legal where you live. The loss of wages, cost of lawyers, and possible costs of future job prospects could hit as hard or harder than a divorce depending on local laws and morals.

  14. @Jeremy I disagree with you that rejection from the opposite sex always cuts deep. At this point in my life it literally doesn’t bother me AT ALL. Of course, like every other men I don’t like rejection from women but once the interaction is over I’m not bothered one bit. I just go talk to the next woman.

    If rejection from women always bothers a guy then from my experience he simply doesn’t talk to enough women thus he has a scarcity mentality. Point, blank, period. Funny enough rejection from women actually drives me at this point in my life and makes me go at it harder and also funny enough when I start to have success with women I have to push myself because I will get lazy if I don’t.

    I also disagree that rejection from women cuts down our biological matter, that is non sense. One woman’s opinion of me means NOTHING or for that matter several women’s opinion of me. I go out every weekend and without a doubt I may have 4 or 5 girls “reject” me in a row and then the next 2 or 3 girls LOVE ME.

    Those rejections means nothing to me and don’t cut down my biological matter at all. Maybe back in the day when we were in tribes but in this day and age with 7 BILLION people on the planet any woman’s rejection doesn’t mean jack shit to my biological matter because there are ALWAYS more women around the corner who will like me. That’s not positive thinking, that is a fact.

  15. @Rollo

    Do you consider yourself part of the PUA community? I know you are often “put there” by others in the manosphere, but I wonder what your opinion is. I guess it is the best fit considering the options, but you are kind of uncatagorizable in my mind.

    Anyway, what I’ve culled from the above comments and reading the MGTOW stuff is that you really aren’t all that far apart. Be outcome independant where any given girl is concerned, but have a plan for the macro. If you’re hurt, go MGTOW until you are all healed up. Then come back and learn game from Rollo.

    I guess I just don’t understand the squable I guess.

    1. Do you consider yourself part of the PUA community?

      Not specifically. I think the early PUA community should be credited with experimenting with what would become the Red Pill later. Before them was Tom Leykis, before him Warren Farrell.

      Like I said I’m about Red Pill awareness and that crosses a lot of manosphere tribes. Depending on which faction wants to criticize me determines which faction I get lumped in with.

      MRAs loved me until the MSM blamed them for the Eliot Rodger mess and suddenly I’m one of the PUAs they promptly threw under the bus. I consider Roosh, Krauser, Christian McQueen and YaReally friends, but even they don’t all get along with each other for various reasons, but then AVfM just did a 2 part interview with Roosh.

      I disagree with Roosh on his estimate of Evo-Psych, I disagree with CH’s politics, I think MRAs have compromised their purpose through a belief in equalism and allowing women into their formerly male space, and I think the isolationist element of MGTOW is ultimately self-defeating.

      That said, Red Pill awareness is an essential part of all of those factions and I think they all largely have merits that outweigh their differences.

      If I have an issue with anyone it’s Purple Pill “life coaches” who distort a harsh Red Pill awareness by watering it down with a palatable Blue Pill sensitivity for their own profit.

      It’s not PUAs selling DVDs or seminar seats anyone should worry about, it’s the half-measures of Purple Pill sanitization that sounds good to guys who don’t want to wear the furry hats and black nail polish they’ve heard about from them.

  16. @Tom numbers have shown that it’s cheaper and creates more profit for clothing designers to put people into sweatshops and pay them slave wages and not give me a lunch break but does that mean it’s a good idea?

    When you pay for an escort it erodes your soul, kills your confidence and empties your wallet, I know guys who do it and they are miserable. An escort is a short term solution for a long term problem but hey to each his own.

  17. @ Rollo

    I put your book in my recommended reading sources in my dating ebook. I would love to send you a copy once it’s finished being proofread and edited if you are interested.

  18. I think many are falling the old the “divide and conquer routine”, perfect plan for maintaining the status quo…split up the differering Men’s camps and we have far less power to change anything.

    The MGTOW thing is being made into another pigeon hole label that it isn’t. I consider myself MGTOW, but I don’t go out of my way to avoid women or isolate myself, I just don’t think molding a big chunk of my life around chasing/peacocking for pussy is worthwhile. I hit the gym, dress well and and am active in a big way in my community because I feel good about it, not because of what women think about it. They are just a side benefit in an otherwise full life.

    I’m perfectly capable of running game if in a target rich environment and the mood strikes me, but only if I feel it will enhance my evening. In many cases I find the women worth wasting time on when I’m doing what I like to do, play pool, ride my bike, hang out in my favorite Cafe’s etc.

  19. I guess I just don’t understand the squable I guess.

    It’s the more militant MGTOWs that create the problem, not the temporary/therapeutic MGTOWs or the married/LTR “mindset MGTOWs”. The militant ones think anything other than MGTOW is irrational — so they attract flack — and also tend to be exceptionally negative minded about women as a group.

  20. @ Rollo

    I’m excited about your new book and I can honestly say that your book just made my game even tighter, mindset wise. A lot of guys don’t realize how fucking important mindset is when it comes to dealing with women.

    From my experience of coaching guys and being in the field all the time mindset is 80% of success with women and 20% of it is the mechanics. I’ll give guys the mechanics and they don’t have the mindset and they constantly sabotage their own success. It’s crazy!

    Anyway my book will be done proofread and edited next week and I will send you a copy then. Thanks for replying, much respect.

  21. @ Octavian

    “If we approach that phrase rationally, its a circular situation….”

    Exactly. You can’t approach that phrase rationally because it is a paradox.

    However, if you
    “…go about my life decisions with at best tangential concern to the opposite gender,…”
    then they will in fact be that much more likely to care about you.

    I’m having difficulty understanding all the pessimism, nihilism and fear around here.
    There must be a lot of men making poor choices about what women they get involved with, as I did pre RP.

    How about this for a criterion for selecting women:
    She is divorced because her husband left her after a long marriage; she didn’t file for divorce herself.

    The last two LTRs I‘ve had were with women who had been married for 20+ years and one husband left to go be gay, the other left because he wanted to dedicate himself to his alcoholism.
    Interestingly, I didn’t consciously choose them for that, I just found out about that after the relationships got going. Apparently, I have gotten myself to a headspace that appeals to unicorns.

    Game is still necessary for managing the relationships. They aren’t hot babes, but they pass the boner test well.
    The next part of my journey is figuring out how to pull women like that who are also above average in physical attractiveness. It may just be a matter of screening out those who aren’t. That’s where outcome independence comes into play, ironically enough.

  22. @Divided Line

    “What do you want? A merit badge? Nobody cares.”

    Untrue. I care. Rollo cares. Most everybody here on RM cares. And I suspect YOU care, or you’d go somewhere else, like, I don’t know…”Your Own Way.” Exerting RP awareness on those closest to me is extremely important. It matters. Maybe you are alone, angry and desperate to reconcile what you’ve lost but aren’t willing to take that 800 pound chip off your shoulder and rebuild yourself into a stronger man. I understand that it’s hard work and you miss the promise of the Blue Pill fantasy, but trust everybody who’s tried–there is no going back.
    _____________________________

    “[The world] It’s already burning to the ground. Take a look around. In fact, that’s the whole reason the manosphere exists at all. It’s burning to the ground. We have a failed culture which can no longer produce social structures and norms which make things that are basic to psychological and emotional well being possible. Your social fabric is eroding. It’s not some doomsday scenario, it’s already here. That is why you have so many guys who are this confused, pissed off, and despairing.”

    No, the world is not burning to the ground. YOUR old world burned to the ground and now it’s up to you to rebuild something better and more real from the ashes. Or go hide–the choice is yours.
    _______________________________

    “I already asked the question and never got an answer. What is there to win? Sex is hardly worth all this and you can go get a call girl. And I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t doubt if a lot of call girls are hotter than the girls some of you are pulling after years of reprogramming your personality and trying to become a zen master game practitioner.”

    You’d be wrong. And the majority of the women I get with are at least 15 years younger than me. P.S. I don’t pay the tab unless it’s reciprocal for her having previously picked up a check. And I’m not tall, rich, buff, or conventionally good looking–yet I still pull non-crazy young 7’s and higher. You might look into refining your game, if you ever get past the BP butthurt.
    _________________________________

    “Oh, what makes it worth it is relationships you have with women? What would women have to offer you other than sex if half the shit you guys argue here about female nature is true? If this is how women really are, then what possible relationship is there with them? Why would their opinion of you matter at all? What is it then? What is the motivation? Love? Their respect? Who’s the simpering blue pill chump now?”

    Sadly, you’re the BP chump. You still cling to residual anger and despair–choosing isolation, rather than working on moving past that to a place of power. The RP and the community (including PUA) have allowed me to see and act on REAL intergender dynamics. It was absolutely a hard ride initially, but I now enjoy the company of women quite a lot. It’s become pretty easy. They can be loads of fun and they never cease to amuse and delight me, now that I know what I know and continue to work on my own self and my game.

    You should try opening your mind, reading, learning, listening, absorbing, participating in the dialogue here and elsewhere. You can go cower in your OWN WAY hidey-hole–hearing only the MGTOW echo chamber, too. It’s your choice. Nobody cares if you don’t care.

    But you came here, so obviously there’s a part of you that’s wanting something more.

  23. @Rollo Tomassi

    MRAs loved me until the MSM blamed them for the Eliot Rodger mess and suddenly I’m one of the PUAs they promptly threw under the bus.

    Huh? What did I miss? I don’t specifically recall anything directed your way during that incident.

  24. Lucien, Yes, sex is something you desire; but there are higher things. Higher things. In these “manosphere” discussions even a refusal to chase pussy is construed in a merely negative sense…

    Yes. This.

    These traditions are not an accident. And I found the truth in them even when I was with women – who never fully lived up to my ideal. They are just signs pointing us to something greater.

    Again, yes.

    The problem with you all is that you no longer have these options; you live in a thoroughly secularized society. So you don’t realize what it is you thirst for. You thirst for the divine. No woman will ever, ever be able to satisfy that thirst. It has nothing to do with the sexual revolution or feminism. It is a truth universally recognized in human history. And it is time for men to rediscover it, and set their sights higher.

    I fully agree. However, never forget that the average man is closer to a beast than a philosopher. Having attended law school, you fall in the very far end of the bell curve and so should not assume your emotional experiences are like many others.

    Rollo, Celibacy makes philosophers of men.

    I wonder how many celibates, and how many philosophers, you hang around? I know quite a few. Philosophers (or those with such leanings) tend in my experience to either have large families, or none at all, and these leanings occur at a very young age, long before sex or lack of it becomes a factor. Also, many celibates may be gay, neuter, or have low sex drives.

  25. The last two LTRs I‘ve had were with women who had been married for 20+ years and one husband left to go be gay, the other left because he wanted to dedicate himself to his alcoholism.

    Not saying this wasn’t true in these cases but …. those are two of the most stereotypical covers for women who are looking to hide what actually happened in the marriage. Those things happen, but not commonly after 20+ years, and it’s just the easy way for a woman to cover up what really happened, in many cases (not necessarily those cases).

  26. Estrogen… “sexual caution”
    men possess between 12 and17 times the amount of testosterone (the primary hormone in sexual arousal) women do…

    women produce substantially more estrogen (instrumental in sexual caution) ~Rollo Tomassi, in Schedules of Mating

    Sexual caution may help “willfully override the need”

    you can willfully override the need, just like you can overcome hunger while you’re fasting or on a hunger strike, but the need is still the operative in that act of will. ~Rollo Tomassi, from his essay You Need Sex

  27. “Not saying this wasn’t true in these cases but …. those are two of the most stereotypical covers for women who are looking to hide what actually happened in the marriage. Those things happen, but not commonly after 20+ years, and it’s just the easy way for a woman to cover up what really happened, in many cases (not necessarily those cases).”

    I have to agree with this, the math never lines up with the law of averages. I can count on two fingers the number women I’ve met post divorce that took any responsibility for the end of their marriages, it’s always some evil husband.

  28. Vulpine
    I appreciate your words. I purchased a hunting property on a whim in 2007. I had not ever hunted before, but it was a beautiful piece of wildlife. I took on a LTR with nature and going out by myself learning new skills. All my life I wanted to be alone as an introvert and master my domain. Over the years since I have had an incredible ride, not unlike an epic 5000 mile motorcyle ride.

    I learned botany, farming, planting trees, chainsawing, deer habitat manipulation,farming, extensive gardening, getting in good with rural neighbor’s by being a taker not a giver, acquiring friends who had similar interests and on an on. Deer, rabbit, groundhog shooting, red fox hunting (Heheh–Vulpine).

    The experiences I have had in nature in the past 8 years turned out to be truly sublime and fulfilling.

    The place was 40 minutes away. And I used it as an escape for socializing back home and playing at the country club and partying at the club.

    Well 18 months ago I had a crisis ( my son made a mistake) and swallowed the red pill and since then because of my fulfilling experiences I am back feeling great about socializing. I am an introvert. But now I revel in going out to the country club parties, golf events, going to work, married man gaming my wife, showing amused mastery in the presence of my adult children.

    I have come full circle with the help of red pill game. I have always had intellectual talent, had an ideal childhood with good parents, have a good wife and children and good finances.

    But plunging into the adventure that was nature, botany, farming, gardening, hunting, manipulating wildlife habitat in a purposeful way made me more goal oriented (and I was to begin with, now even more).

    I still fall on the definition of outcome independence once again as a Michael Jordan like being in the zone. I had the skills, had low barrier to mastery and was not afraid if I went out an hour before first light and went deer hunting without the outcome of the day determining my happiness.

    The pursuit was an adventure and the adventure turned out great.
    And an odd thing happened along the way. The greatest strength was reconnecting with being with people. I’m very judging in a Meyers Briggs sense, but I stopped judging the rural neighbors and instead gamed them. And Game with DHV, social proof, keeping frame, not qualifying etc. worked great on the not so sophisticated rural people. I also had to employ the 48 Rules on asshole hunting neighbors.

    Otherwise, separately, from my networking with other wildlife habitat managers I learned new insights into good men. I now know that in order to be good with women or a wife, a man has to be good at being a man among masculine males. And it is valuable as a man who was imprinted in the hindbrain over 100,000 years of tribal gang life, to have a gang of men that you spend time together, and trust each other to have each other’s backs. And be honest with you. These guys have honor among men.

    I like your story Vulpine, you fox, and it makes sense.

    I migrated back to people after wanting to be alone. You migrated to being alone after having too much of other people. Heh, Sartre said ” Hell is other people” I had thought that all my life, but I changed.

    Red pill is profitable for me. I think you would agree that when your partner says thank you for f***ing me, that’s good.

    I’m SJFRELLC and I believe in Red Pill married man game.

  29. For those suggesting traditional religion is some kind of panacea: of the ~15 chicks that were in my peer group at church from muddle to high school, my sister and two others were the only ones that made it to 18 years old without getting knocked up. ALL of them drank heavily (yes even my sister) and used the innocent church girl game as a cover. Christian women, especially the ones that swing the Bible hard, are easier non-married lays than many feminists in my experience.

    AWALT, especially when they have God to trot out as a cover. Hypergamy doesn’t care about God, and it sure as hell doesn’t care about your piety.

  30. Haven’t read all the comments yet, but this post got me thinking about this topic in a new way. I always resolved the conflict of OI by assuming that you should be OI with any one particular woman, while being OD with women in general.
    For example, I care and i am OD on my desire to have sex- that is the priority, and on that count the only honest answer is that I care about getting laid- one way or another. I apply OI by realizing that no one particular woman is “the one” I have to get laid by. So maybe the brunette, maybe a plate I’m spinning, maybe the girl at the coffee shop.. or failing that an escort or whatever.
    This, for me, made sense because it dovetails nicely with avoiding one-itis. So I, without much conscious thought, united the two concepts together in a way that made sense to me. I think it’s a fairly elegant solution, so I’m not sure taking this particular viewpoint presented here will necessarily help.
    Also- Buffers are not a bad thing. Neither is compartmentalization or even some rationalization. Women have been incredibly successful in the FI making good use of those psychological tools.. I wouldn’t discount their use for men. A house is a buffer against the rain an snow, but we don’t deride them as something we are hiding behind, although, in principle we are avoiding the harshness of reality by building them. Walls, buffer zones, redirected focus of attention is a good way to protect oneself from the elements- especially considering the harsh reality we are now living in as far as women are concerned

  31. @Jeremy

    In some ways it’s even worse than that. Think about how Christianity arranges access to sex. It’s only allowed in a committed relationship. A man is required to give up the keys to his gates to get access to hers. The more sincerely pious you are, the more she knows you’re bluffing with any form of dread game. No power in the relationship by default. A lot of calls on her part for “unconditional love” (as advertised in the Bible) when she balloons up 100 lbs though.

    Side note: the only reason my sister wasn’t knocked up was because my dad (being a doctor) put her on birth control at 15. Think I wasn’t steamed after 18 years of hearing parents harp on how I was NOT to have sex before I was out on my own and married, then there’s my sister being greenlighted for it?

  32. @Hobbes

    you should be OI with any one particular woman, while being OD with women in general.

    You know, without verbalizing it I have the feeling that’s how I’ve applied it. Going forward I’ll definitely be thinking of it that way explicitly. I like it.

  33. @ Novaseeker

    “In any free market system, there is a certain percentage who will be losers, and the SMP is no exception to that. To me, it’s better that these people go off and do their own thing and write blogs bitching about women than it is for them to go postal.”

    Or better for them to MGTOW, than settle for a low SMV women.

    1. The Sexual Market Place isn’t a fixed entity.

      A man with perfectly good SMV may nevertheless find himself in a place where he’s toast. A military guy posted to an isolated base is a great example of this. You can have tight game : but if you’re a Marine and on a base with a 60:1 male female ratio it won’t do you squat dick of good in terms of getting laid. Not unless you take leave or get promoted to unit Commander…..

      The idea most men can’t compete in the SMV is more about social programming and defective mindset the actual structural issues. I’ve seen too many fit guys who are dating or married to containership women.I met the boyfriend of a coworker once and thought “What the fuck is this bodybuilder doing with you?!”

      Social schemas and mindset have not only held back capable men, but put guys WAY above their SMV in the reach of lower tier women .

  34. @ Ronin

    “I have to agree with this, the math never lines up with the law of averages. I can count on two fingers the number women I’ve met post divorce that took any responsibility for the end of their marriages, it’s always some evil husband.”

    I didn’t claim that they took responsibility for their part in the failure of their marriages.
    Being with them for 3 and 5.5 years made it clear that they do indeed have an unusually strong sense of loyalty to their relationships.
    Probably the main source of failure in their marriages was too much BP indoctrination on the parts of their husbands that made them incapable of handling the women properly.

    My point was that some women are better at controlling their Hypergamy than others. They are both semi rural working class religiously indoctrinated women who weren’t exposed to ‘misandry studies’.

  35. Outcome independence is not losing your frame in the face of rejection. It’s a state of mind. Abandoning a goal deemed worthy is not outcome independence, it’s quitting.

    Although MGTOW’s quitting on women and especially ltr’s/marriage seems rational given the costs/risks and the fact that most men won’t be able to attain a high SMV woman. Why should any man settle?

    The YouTube channels of MGTOW’s Bar Bar and Thinking Ape are excellent.

  36. “…that most men won’t be able to attain a high SMV woman. Why should any man settle?”

    I suspect that a lot of men are MGTOWing because they have a high expectation of being with physically beautiful women. Sun Wukong has directly said that.

    Don’t forget that there is a trade off between high HB and neurotic behavior in a woman. If you want a unicorn who is beautiful and has a great personality and relationship loyalty, you’ll need to patiently play a numbers game. You need to increase your sample space. MGTOW is the opposite of doing that.

  37. Is SJFRELLC an acronym?
    Yes, an inscrutable, mastermind type of acronym. If you imagine that it has no meaning at all it will assuage any fears that you may harbor.

    A made up acronym with no meaning.
    Yes. An Inscrutable. Yes.

  38. Awesome discussion; I’ve been slowly (sadly) nodding my head to most posts here.
    There is also the nagging delusion of “the one” to blame here.
    I’ve been single all my life and left the game years ago. Before I quit, I would always ask those who were in successful relationships advice: where/how they met, what they did, etc. In almost every instance the answer had some variation of this:
    “After our first date I knew I’d marry this girl/guy.”
    A lovely sentiment. And, alas, one that is completely foreign to me.
    I have never met a single, AVAILABLE woman, who, after having met her, led me to think,
    “My God, I HAVE to get to know this girl better; she could be IT.”
    I’m getting mighty cynical as I get older.

  39. Rollo, is your doubt about the veracity of outcome-independence meant to apply to all men who choose not to actively pursue women, or specifically to men who learn about RP and then adopt MGTOW as a philosophy? Because while your points are well-considered with respect to many “officially” MGTOW men, I totally disagree when it comes to guys who just decide to swear off or stop pursuing women:

    1. It’s not just the “losers” in the SMP with sourgrapes. I know a few guys who could *easily* do very well with women, but choose not to make any effort because they truly just don’t care that much. I’m thinking of one particular guy I work with who has all the prereqs — height, looks, intelligence, social skills, high income — but he honestly just does not think it’s worth it to make the slightest bit of effort with women because he has other priorities — and he thinks the amount of effort and concern that other men invest in getting laid is truly insane. And as a result, he’s been celibate for several years. He could easily fix this but it doesn’t register as a value high enough for him to be worth any effort. Sure, if a perfect woman fell in his lap, he’d be happy, and he’s had relationships in the past, but he won’t make the effort to do online dating, approach women, pay for dates, etc. It just really isn’t his priority. I think people have trouble appreciating just how radically different other’s hierarchy of values can be. I know guys who are so sex-driven they will dumpster dive and screw any woman who lets them, no matter how gross. I know others who are more ego-driven by the validation of getting a woman of a certain caliber, and prefer not getting laid to dipping below their standards. And I know others who really just aren’t that concerned about or motivated by women one way or the other, and will take it if it comes but won’t spend any effort trying to get it.

    2. Personality type plays into this a lot. Some people are just inherently more outcome-independent across the board (not just with women) because they have less emotionally reactive personalities, and are less socially-oriented and less concerned with other’s perceptions of them. These are usually sort of cerebral, introverted, objective/rational types who like to spend a lot of time philosophizing and thinking and less time actively doing. They don’t get worked up about a lot of things, either positively or negatively, that other people care about and they live in their heads a lot and get more enjoyment from cerebral pleasures.

    3. Outcome independence is the natural result of experience, in any arena. Humans are amazingly adaptable and a consequence of this is that we quickly get jaded to experiences and they don’t have the same impact on us that they used to — this applies to both good and bad experiences. After you’ve done something a hundred times, it will not be either as terrifying or as blissful as the first few times. Think about someone hired for a job that involves some anxiety-provoking task, such as giving public talks or doing door-to-door sales. The first several times, it will likely induce fear and anxiety and the outcome will appear to be a matter of life and death, with anguish resulting if one fails. But after you’ve done it enough times, it doesn’t even have an impact. Sure, you prefer for the talk to go well or to get the sale, but it doesn’t matter THAT much, certainly not enough to get all anxious beforehand or upset if it doesn’t go well. Experience breeds apathy, in a sense. There are things in my job that terrified me the first year that I now don’t give a second thought. There’s no reason pursuing women shouldn’t have the same effect. Once you’ve been rejected a thousand times and you realize your life doesn’t end, that fight-or-flight anxiety goes away and you stop caring, and once you’ve succeeded a hundred times, you don’t value it as much, it’s not such a big deal, and the natural result is a large dose of outcome independence.

    4. It’s basic human psychology for a person who cares about something very much to react to someone who doesn’t care about that thing with disbelief and then rationalizing to delegitimize their perspective. If person A has made great sacrifices and expended great effort to achieve prize X, and then they find out that person B not only doesn’t really value prize X but chooses not to try to even get prize X, person A will often rationalize that person B is lying to themselves, denying their true desires, has sour grapes, etc. Because to admit that person B truly just doesn’t value prize X would be to confront the fact that person A has invested so much effort in something that might not have universal value. You see this all the time if you tell someone who’s highly invested in parenting that you don’t want kids — it drives them nuts. Why should they care? Because they’ve sacrificed so much and invested so much to be a parent that they can’t stand to think that someone else doesn’t value it the same way. So they’ll tell themselves that the person who doesn’t want kids is repressing their true desires, or will “see the light” someday, or will end up a lonely old man — anything other than admitting that perhaps they really just don’t want kids because they don’t think it’s worth it. Because for many people, when someone doesn’t care about something that they care about, it’s inherently delegitimizing to the thing they care about. Again, this is applicable to personality types who are more socially/group oriented and who are highly invested in what others care about…more independent types are much less likely to engage in this type of thinking. But for lots of people, the standard response when confronted with someone who chooses not to value or pursue the thing they think everyone should value is: A. disbelief (they’re lying/fooling themselves), and then B. if they’re confronted with irrefutable proof that the person really doesn’t care, such as witnessing them turn down the thing multiple times when offered, deciding that the person must be mentally ill or defective in some manner.

  40. Also, now that I think about it in relation to the men I know, I think voluntary celibacy is actually fairly common at the very top of the SMP, just as involuntary celibacy is at the bottom. I know guys at the absolute top of the market (where I live, anyway), who go for years without sex because they refuse to settle for anyone who doesn’t live up that they consider beneath them — if she isn’t model gorgeous with a PhD and high earning who speaks 3 languages, they’d rather not play. This comes, of course, with the mindset of knowing absolutely that they could get virtually any single woman they know, they just don’t like any of their options. So it’s outcome independence borne of an abundance mentality and a conviction in their own high value. This actually is not uncommon with either men or women at the very top of the SMP.

    So in this sense, there seems to be a bit of a bell curve where those at the top resemble those at the bottom in some ways…those who can have everything have trouble valuing anything, as do those with nothing to lose because they can’t get anything. That applies to lots of things, actually.

  41. @Octavian

    Social schemas and mindset have not only held back capable men, but put guys WAY above their SMV in the reach of lower tier women .

    This one has cropped up a lot of times in discussions here actually. Part of third wave feminism’s push for SMV inflation of all women putting hypergamy in overdrive created an interesting situation where HB8+ quite literally can’t satisfy their hypergamy. Assuming the inflation that I’ve seen (about 2-3 points) it’s impossible. There’s not enough HG10s to go around for the HB8s, and there’s no such thing as an HG 11-13. They quite literally don’t exist. The man they want doesn’t exist.

    So the high end push themselves totally out of the game by refusing to accept any man alive, leaving HG6-9s completely open for all the HB4-7s. It’s actually incredible that the frumpy, fat, angry women running the feminist movement managed to convince the women they hated for getting all the attention to remove themselves completely from the game.

  42. Of course it also doesn’t help that thanks to the obesity epidemic probably less than 5% of the female population are actual HB6+ these days.

  43. @ Jeremy

    Your comment to Eric and myself really struck a nerve. 

    My brother and I have been round and round on this issue. He thinks we were abused, emotionally. I think nothing I could describe would rise to that standard, and attempting to do so would only me make e a whiner…but that was a part of the conditioning, the expectation to assume full responsibility for my actions, and  inactions and existence in general. 

    Oh and how well we were trained and indoctrinated. We were the perfect servants of others needs and wants always responsible for everything we were associated with. When bad things happened we took responsibility, when good things happened we credited others as we were to be selfless. Our foremost concerns and obligations were upholding the public and self images of the parents, especially as this related to providing a crucial, and substantial portion of mother’s identity.

    We responded differently. My brother embraced the role, I retreated into my head to the one place where I was free from…everything. As a result I am perpetually single, my brother married a succubus and was emotionally, and psychologically stripped to the bone. My brother leads with his heart, I refuse to believe I have one.  He trusts without suspicion, I suspect there’s not much to trust in but the certainty of eventual betrayal. 

    And that’s my critical problem. I, especially after my time in the ‘sphere, see so little that can or should trusted when dealing with women. I didn’t like the amount of ambiguity, fraud and duplicity the game held under the blue pill perspective, but I thought that was just needing to filter for an honest broker. Now I suspect the honest broker doesn’t really exist. Of course most of the things I want in a woman don’t really exist so I am not surprised. But what does exist? Beyond sex, which is restively easy to obtain even with my weak ass game, what is there? I know the costs, actual, and opportunity like a CPA know the tax code, but the benefits…not a clue. 

    I suspect what does exist won’t mitigate my lack of faith, lack of trust, or inability to suspend disbelief. 

    I guess that raises the question about why I’m here. Two main reasons:

    1. The issues discussed in the here and the ‘sphere generally are the last piece of my personal grand theory of everything.

    2. I’m an idiot, and I still have some sort of hope.

  44. @bp

    It may not have been abusive treatment in the same way what I faced was, but it was neglectful in failing to prepare you for the real world. It sounds like your mother did what mine did when she wasn’t being outright abusive: punished me for not making her life easier and prioritizing strictly on that.

    The icing on the cake after 18 years of that treatment: the day I left for college, she and my sister went in to my room, tore out all the sheets books, clothing blinds, posters, and basically all my personal effects and redecorated it. Nothing says “You can’t go home” like actually having everything that was you stripped out of your room the moment you’re out of the way.

    The same thing did not happen to my sister.

    I was inconvenient, and I was there to accommodate everyone else’ life. It wasn’t the blatantly abusive behavior, but it destroys one’s ability to engage in healthy levels of selfish behavior and personal advancement in the adult world. Parents instill it so that you will be a good, obedient, convenient child without thinking about what the long term consequences will be.

    It’s just straight up shitty parenting.

  45. @Rollo – someone else may have asked this, but I haven’t read the comments…in the last sentence of this post, you said, “…you must have a reality she wants to enter into before you can maintain it.” Would love to see you expand on that in your next post. Keep the hits coming.

  46. “Life of a quiet desperation” – I personally know too much married men, who live just like that. They do not present their own opinion on anything, it´s like they have already ..died inside.

    I know from experience that you eventulally grow tired of fucking ANY woman…and after that moment….it is just “sacrifice” for the family, for your children, for you marriage, for the state…you name it.

    There is no coincidence that author is married man…i think that his motivation to write about the cruelty of hypergamy is precisely that of learning..the hard way the inevitable consequences of marriage. There si no coincidence that many MGTOW are previously married men. And do not kid me that you enjoy fucking the same woman for 10 and more years.

    To brag that we are …able to…ehm…”hold” our woman after 10/15 years shows the deepest level of gama desperation. After 10 years the woman should be thankfull to us that we get a boner for her once in a month!!!

    Maybe the hard, celibate MGTOW just understood this, maybe they do not want to sacrify their very freedom for a woman, maybe they do not want to be slaves in marriage, maybe they do not want to fuck the same women for the rest of their life and maybe the grew tired of spining plates as well? I don´t know.

    Neither do I not know why it is necessary to shame MGTOW. But there used to be a “bachelor tax” to push men into marriage..maybe this one is the same. Misery loves company, so I understand the need of married men to shame MGTOW. Check the site “married men write here if you hate your life”…to get a better understanding of the deeepest level of hell in marriage.

    But for the unmarried guys? It is good for us we have less competition for young chicks, isn´t it? The more guys are celibate the better for us! Less competition! Celibate MGTOW help us, they increase our value!

    Btw – when I compare hard MGTOW using young escorts to a celibate life of henpecked married man, slaving and constantly qualifying for his “wife”…which situation is the NORM in marriage…I vote for MGTOW guy.

    Celibate is not for me but I understand the guys who choose that way and I will not necessary label it as resignation. Of course, it might be resignation but it might be…understanding and exeprience. I do not know. I did have moments in my life in which I was “tired” of women. Maybe for some guys…it can last for life?

  47. @kryptokate

    SUPERB post, this is what I am trying to say but I am not able to do it so smoothly.

    Married men with children sacrified very much from their personal lives to live that life and they realize it ..every mninute. Hardcore PUAS are spending lot of time and effort to pursue ton´s of women to get good lays. Status and money pursuing guys are doing tons of work to get at the top.

    They all expect from other people to recognize and to value it…it gives meaning to their work, to their sacrifice. And now they have the group pf men here who say – “fuck it, it´s not worth the effort”? It threatens their way of life, their very existence.

    We have a tendency to think that our emotional state is universal. I have it too. I value freedom above anything else and I honestly do not understand the psychology of married slave – most married men. I pity him – for me, the dog has much better life.

    But for him – he might be happy in his role, he might have a sense of fulfillment, his wife and children might be everything he wants in his life and he might be prepared to sacrifice his very life for it.

    He might be scared of living like me and he might…pity me.

    again, superb post.

  48. @gregg

    You are merely espousing the other part of the (false and shockingly unimaginative) MGTOW binary.

    Namely, that you can’t be a good, full time father AND a player. Lack of imagination. Women are (other than for nine months) IRRELEVANT and interchangeable.

    Lion model dude. Don’t wish it wasn’t true, wish you were better.

  49. Most men are betas (80/20) and despite the evo psych explanation of men desiring to spread their seed the reality is most men want a long term monogamous relationship with a low n woman (like Rollo). For most men the Masculine Imperative is monogamy.

    For women it’s the exact opposite, the FI wants serial polygyny .

    Open hyperagamy or serial polygyny hasn’t increased the SMV of women, if anything it’s decreased it, what it has done though is increase the price of monogamy stratospherically.

    Sure women will eventually succumb to monogamy but only on their terms and only if they can leave whenever they feel like it, hence marriage 2.0.

    The FI wants serial polygyny while the MI wants genuine monogamy.

    The problem with game is that it provides the FI exactly what it wants, sexy time with alphas and beta bucks when the youth train runs its course.

    I can’t see how game and the red pill isn’t an FI construct.

    Women hate genuine monogamy and game teaches men how to become serial fuckers, the FI wants open hyperagamy and game dutifully teaches men how to sexyfying themselves to become sexy fuckers.

    If you observe what the FI really hates, it isn’t red pill aware men, it’s high earning virgin nerds (under yesteryears monogamy paradigm, the perfect husband).

    Sometimes I wonder if MGTOW doesn’t have more going for it than meets the eye.

  50. @”Women hate genuine monogamy and game teaches men how to become serial fuckers, the FI wants open hyperagamy and game dutifully teaches men how to sexyfying themselves to become sexy fuckers.”
    You seem to confuse the mainstream-better-beta-PU-advice (that always and in a very conspicious way ONLY focusses on generating attraction and relegiously stays away from “judging” women at all) with serious red pill discussions/approaches.

    Of course the FI loves serial fuckers – IF they stay in their exact corner and don’t “abuse their power” to do what they like.

    The moment a FI-approved “serial fucker” starts to…
    a) fuck legal, but very young girls, perhaps even impregnating them
    b) starts to “enslave” a women into the tradtitionla female role instead of performing sexual service for aged whores
    or a host of other things…it’s all over with the FI-approval in seconds.

    @ “If you observe what the FI really hates, it isn’t red pill aware men, it’s high earning virgin nerds (under yesteryears monogamy paradigm, the perfect husband).”
    High-earning virgin nerds are hated as soon as they actually and explicitly EXPECT something for their part – nothing drives the FI into overdrive-hamster-mode like a (socially clumsy) beta that does not emblemish, but clearly states that he wants this and that from a woman or will keep his stuff to himself.

  51. As a young man, I was a jock. Rugby.
    Local club. Exposure. Etc.
    The womynz were crazy….Stalked me, followed me, sex in bathrooms, fields, cars, vans, etc.
    About 28, I decided I wanted to “hug” and “caress” one at the night. Mother fucking WRONG!!!! She turned me ina whimpering puppy (with my full cooperation of course). Complete reversal of roles. God knows how long I suffered then chasing my “ONE.”
    Anyway, blue or red pill, I am becoming more adept to believe that maybe the FI does have this mother fucker on lock down. I was the “sexy fucker” for all the ladies. Then I became the “pathetic fucker” for all the reformed sluts.
    Fallen back now on the “sexy fucker” role. I can not say I like it. I have absolutely no respect for the women I dehumanize. And, they ask for more….It is as the say, “shyte.” Now, I prefer this role to the groveling, worthless, spineless role. Still a ROLE. Still a CLOWN.
    I have no answers, but inside me I am as they say ” broken.” I bless the red pill, but my salvation is not women. I write, workout, and ride fast motorcycles looking for a cheap thrill. I look for death on the bike and it makes me shake. At times, much better than any sex.
    I

  52. Obese guys are selling their souls for money and fame to push BETA GAME on the majority of males that are unaware of the truth because someone here has not told every man about “The Rational Male” (book & blog). My Grandparents enjoyed 70 years in near bliss, that would be nice, but the obese “males” are paid well to act like BETA GAME works in 2015. Are you on twitter? It doesn’t make sense to you? It’s time to get there, fast. Why? Because “males” are paid B-list celebrity fees to push BETA GAME. It’s true. They are paid large sums of money to do this:

    http://twitter.com/JamesMSama/status/572592057979682817

  53. Resorted to phone typing on the metro.
    Mistakes were made…grammatical.
    I am at certain level “obsessed” with escaping the Matrix. The part about ” how ” is my work in progress. I study on it devoutly. I am diligent.
    Great posts Rollo. Excellent comments lads. Sharing our experiences is a tremendous advantage. Thank you.

  54. The SMP is merciless.
    The average lesser beta male entering it in his 40’s (clueless and deluded) is a recipe for disaster. Women are rock stars and he is nothing but another pathetic orbiter. Without looks or game, especially asshole game, nothing saves you in the Western Culture. I wish I could’ve rejoiced in the ” wife of my youth “, but that is a mere fantasy now.
    You all have a lovely day.

  55. Hitting the pause button is a healthy thing. I usually test INTJ on most Briggs-Meyers tests and it always comes down to having time to recharge your batteries. I feel this way after being at a social outing or dealing with any women. They can be draining. My more extroverted counterparts need the constant contact and attention that I could care less about. I like retreating into my own head, making a few changes, then coming back out (hitting the Play button) and being ready to conquer the situation. Now if this extended for years, I would say it’s problematic, but there is nothing wrong with temporary bouts of isolation. I actually encourage it. Enjoying the company of yourself is strengthening.

    @Live Fearless:
    Those BETA Gamers are whom fellas in my circle considers “Pander Bears.” They say all that gooey shite in order to get clicks and likes and women eat it up. I’ve watched memes floating around with guys dressed in suits with whatever credentials, claiming to be “relationship experts/coaches” and telling women what to expect in “REEEEAL” men and tell men how to cater to their woman as to not lose her to a more worthy man. Women see it as “telling the men how to be men.” Most Red Pill dudes see it as simping. The women eat it up though, without questioning the exact motive of those pandering BPillers which is to sell books and sell tickets to relationship seminars.

  56. I can relate this only from a personal perspective. Since I started successfully gaming women and built up a small but regular mini-harem of chicks I bang…I don’t care anymore about whether or not I see them.

    It’s weird…One drops out, the other pops up…and if I lost those two then I’m still out gaming new ones. But i’m in no rush so I’m now feeling more “natural” and less “on” when I game these women.

    I’m now focusing only on women I want not any hot bird who I can bang…

    I figure I can take more time now and the women around me sense a kind of confidence…less “over-gaming”.

    It’s a mindset of course. If I started to panic or “feel” a sense of “loss” or “urgency”…then it would all go to shit.

    Also, I’m now slowly trying new activities that I hadn’t done before…this is a personal exploration but women notice this and become curious.

    I think this is a personification of the strategies and ideas in the original post. The abundance mentality comes from achievement…and then not resting on that achievement but becoming more resolute and focused in advancing.

    I can afford to be more choosy.

  57. Actually, MRA’s have a valid beef with the law and their approach is valid within that framework. I predict it will be a success within that framework mainly because the over the top attacks from radicals will legitimize it with non-ideological people, as well as equality is a valid legal concept supported by many laws based on US Constitutional principles.

    We’re already seeing reverses in skin color based, discriminatory Affirmative Action law that began around 20 years ago. The same will hold true for discriminatory law regarding females, if the MRA’s stick to their guns. The beginning’s of this have begun via Title IX lawsuits being filed by male students being discriminated against in our Universities with favoritism of females, as well as the bigot talk that the radfems engage in.

    20 years ago, gay marriage was a crazy idea and today, your considered a bigot if you oppose it. The MRA movement will take 20 years or more to be successful. But it will happen.

  58. @sgtted

    Actually, MRA’s have a valid beef with the law and their approach is valid within that framework…

    …We’re already seeing reverses in skin color based, discriminatory Affirmative Action law that began around 20 years ago. The same will hold true for discriminatory law regarding females, if the MRA’s stick to their guns…

    …20 years ago, gay marriage was a crazy idea and today, your considered a bigot if you oppose it. The MRA movement will take 20 years or more to be successful. But it will happen.

    You have some cause/effect mixing there.

    MRA’s and especially AVfM are organized ideology, despite any claims to the contrary. Whenever you organize and collectivize funding for an ideology, you plant the seeds for future evil regardless of any good intentions. This was the road of feminism. This was the road against racism (NAACP). This was the road of every organized religion in existence. This was the road of countless organized human movements across history. All of the organizations associated with these have performed evil in the service of their ideology, all of them.

    The reason this happens is that ideology has no lower step. There is no way for the leaders of such organizations to step down from ridiculous positions when it is clear their thinking is so far removed from pragmatism as to be insanity. They are a group of people focused on an ideal, and anything less than the ideal is unacceptable in the eyes of those involved.

    As humans have “grown up” intellectually, we have grown a larger segment of the population who accept abstract thinking as valid. Three hundred years ago, if you suggested a hypothetical situation to a random person, its likely they would look on you as if you were a witch. There’s actual data to back up my claims here (surveys and research on people who live the lives that were lived back then). This makes sense when you think about it, the life of someone in the 1700s was much much much more focused on what they were going to eat that day, than what people might perceive if they posted something controversial on their twitter account. People used to be FAR more grounded in day to day survival, so they had little time to spend pondering (what they consider) meaningless questions.

    Because of this change in human thinking, we as a species are more prone to falling for an ideology. Ideologies don’t exist in the real world, they are an ideal, not reality. But since so many of us accept the hypothetical and are more prone to ignore our day to day survival, the abstract becomes a reality worth fighting for. The problem as I said before, is that organized ideology has no lower step. There is no compromise with an ideology as it isn’t real. Yet, the supporters of that ideal will regard their ideal as their reality, their turf from which they must battle others. The organization surrounding the idea becomes one of worship, where pragmatic consideration of the idea in the real world is regarded as an attack on the idea. You can watch this happen in real time at AVfM, where discussions of Game, frank discussions of female nature and any other contradictions to ideals written about there will get you attacked by the moderators and even banned from the comments section if they can goad you enough.

    MRAs as a movement will die the same death that feminism will, that is their clinging to their ideals will eventually reveal them as impractical purveyors of lies and there will be a movement attacking them.

    Live by the sword, die by the sword.

  59. @sgtted

    Fixing No Fault divorce and unequal sentencing in male vs. female cases in court is possible. Fixing the social views of men in a fashion resembling “true equality” as I’ve heard many of them talk about? Rollo has a point there. Not happening.

  60. Fearless,
    F.I. product placement twitter fags is nowhere near as detrimental as the millions and millions of men climbing over each other to put your average bird on a pedestal all day, every day, as one of her facebook “friends”.

    I don’t play in that swamp, but the other day I got a tutorial from a plate and her FB was full of these little FI-inspired quips, motivational/inspirational fortune cookie philosophy, and men scrambling to be the first responders to celebrate her awareness, strength, beauty. She’s not even an egregious participant but still its there all day, on her phone, all night when she cuddles with her laptop.

    She talked about removing the app from her phone because it is too much work, too distracting to have to keep track of all of these precious interactions.

    The only thing more interesting than just how hungry the males are to give attention is just how thirsty they are to get their own attention. Seriously, the whole fucking thing is so overtly feminized it can be nothing other than a primary feeding tube of the matrix. Shit, talk about frame.

    Even one of her former f*ckbuddies, a young strapping lad with a crossfit chiseled body can’t let well enough alone. She showed me his page. Full of inspiring “quotes” that could have been ripped from Stuary Smalley of SNL fame. Intermixed of course with all his “manly” action photos and an ongoing play-by-play of his exercise and meals. New personal best today! New profile pic. “You look hot!” “Congrats, so strong!”

    I may be missing something, true enough. And no doubt this six-pack abs guy gets his share of poon. But all this new media is pretty damn far from any form of independence, stoicism, or frame control IMO.

    Imagine these FI echo chambers populated only by manboobs on the take. Do you think women might be more inclined to put down their phones long enough to converse about something other than the latest meme? Less inclined to see themselves as swimming in options, reveling in their specialness, their enlightened states of awareness, concern, and empowerment? Perhaps.

    But I wonder more about why men will champion the reasons why other men should unplug from the matrix, take the pill, rekindle their primal masculinity, but stop short of unplugging from the closest thing to an actual physical matrix.

  61. @The CPT. Thank you! Pander Bears I’m still laughing, I’ll have to use that phrase. Certainly fits the photo on credited to those tweets.

    It must be absolute misery to sell out like that & write all of that nonsense with full knowledge that it further destroys other people. How do they look themselves in the mirror? Now I remember, most of them stopped going rooms with mirrors in them.

    It’s great entertainment seeing the out of context lecture in his tweets and in the tweets from his ‘still single and sure the perfect man is coming soon’ disciples.

    I’ll never forget when a male friend that’s a household name paid E.M.K. a high four-figure sum as his dating coach. That was a grand disaster that would have left him lonely and miserable. I stepped in, took him out a few times and played ultimate wing man to get his natural abilities back on track.

  62. @Badpainter

    I did not intend on striking nerves, it was just open honesty.

    It’s valuable to consider and remember how subtle female emotional abuse can be. Sons are trained by both parents to not complain. This is the equivalent of teaching a daughter that any sexual abuse by father is normal, and she should just “woman up”. Since sons within a family are in a uniquely vulnerable position of having their complaints or visible signs of emotional trauma disregarded, they can easily become the emotional tampons for the family and as a result erect wall-of-china-sized buffer behaviors and moral justifications to deal with it.

    What’s worse is many women engage in emotional manipulation without even realizing it. Whenever a mother or father places their own physical or emotional needs on a son, they are abusing him. It is a completely inappropriate relationship for a child to be responsible for the physical or emotional wellbeing of his (or her) parents. He has no place to complain, so what can he do? The son has to be a man and keep the family together, so his childhood gets destroyed so that parent can get the salve parent needs to alleviate childhood pain that mom/dad hasn’t dealt with.

    BP, keep in mind that the system trains you not to recognize your own pain. The system NEEDS you to simply soldier on and fail to recognize these things. In my case I felt the exact same way. I did not want to admit even to myself that I was abused. What I was “complaining” about simply couldn’t rise to that level, right? (I had that exact thought) I didn’t recognize, no one did, that the behaviors in childhood that affected me so badly were anything other than normal until decades later. Hell, when these things were happening in childhood, I didn’t even know what my problem was (and I did indeed think it was *my* problem). As a child you have no frame of reference for healthy, so the horrendously unhealthy becomes your normal. In my case the only thing that worked was significant, enforced distance from the people/places where that abuse took place. When I separated myself, I didn’t even recognize why I did it. But gradually, over a few years, I realized why I “ran away” from them. Somehow I knew that the only way to get a grip was to be completely separated from the behaviors associated with the abuse. Of course, my separation was again framed as “my problem”. Those behaviors would constantly trigger every childhood defense I erected to protect myself. So visiting/contacting family regularly would keep me in that same ridiculous child-state of mind that was wholly unproductive towards becoming a full adult.

    I’m still not entirely past it. I do recognize how badly it screwed me up with women, but recognition isn’t enough. Most of the buffer behaviors I had to grow were the exact ones used to avoid rejection by women. So I was learning from age 4 how to be a blue pill footsoldier. I believe I’m finally at a stage where I should be out approaching, however, I also have no local-area friends who are of single-man age anymore. Most of them are married off as good little husbands.

  63. Kryptokate said “experience breeds apathy.” from an outcome independence standpoint, do any guys here actually get tired of banging chicks all the time? It starts to lose its fun for me after a while. It makes it even easier to get girls when you already have plenty, but I just get my fill and get bored. Muscle cars can be way more exciting to me than women sometimes. Some of my other player buddies have expressed the same sentiment, so Im curious…

  64. @ Walawa; “The abundance mentality comes from achievement…and then not resting on that achievement but becoming more resolute and focused in advancing.”

    What if we change the word achievement in that sentence to Mastery.

    The abundance mentality comes from mastery of game. You are good at it.

    Now I see what M Simon is talking about in Proportional integral derivative loops even though I don’t know anything about embedded electrical engineering. M Simon can design a masterful (well functioning) PID loop. He designs it to be good ahead of the time that it is needed to function.
    A man good at game is a master before he sarges the field.
    If you are good and masterful at something you have an abundance mentality and worry less about the outcome.

    I think Roosh’s argument about outcome independence of historical figures is flawed. I just don’t know what the flaw in his argument is yet. Anyone with me on that?

  65. @Sam, CPT is on about Sama. Look at his gender demo:

    http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/jamesmsama.com

    Tell me who his “advice” is for? It would be a compliment to call him Purple Pill, the guys is a Blue Pill apologist for women.
    @Rollo, thank you for making that clear. Women. Keywords: a good man, a confident man, universal hot crazy matrix, Jennifer Lawrence leaked, women need to

    Egalitarian equalism – profitable like a religion
    (auto-spell correct wouldn’t let my type equalism-I think I’ve read that somewhere a few times before)

    What’s interesting is the comment thread under this post:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/atheist-lawmaker-opens-arizona-house-with-godless-prayer

    He’s accused of preaching after he mentions making those with “(lack of) beliefs” more comfortable.

  66. “I fully agree. However, never forget that the average man is closer to a beast than a philosopher. Having attended law school, you fall in the very far end of the bell curve and so should not assume your emotional experiences are like many others.”

    That’s true. I have that awkward realization all the time when I comment on posts. But, much worse, I realize it when I am looking for a depth of connection with women that just isn’t there.

    I should clarify that I wasn’t encouraging everyone who can’t get laid to go out and become a philosopher. The philosophers I mentioned merely exemplify *values* that you should emulate. Philosophy is not the only source of these values. Religion is the dominant source. I mentioned the Stoics because it’s not all about religion.

    There are truly things out there greater than women. Put on some headphones and turn on Bach’s Sonatas for solo violin, and walk around the park. If your park is like mine (hint, it’s in a very big city), there will be vain, entitled sluts walking through every corner of it. Ask yourself what is greater, them or Bach? You won’t have to think about it. You will *feel” the answer. This is what I do when I struggle, when I feel temptation; and it never fails me. Not only will you not have to think to know the answer. You will feel ashamed—truly ashamed—at having devoted more time and energy than absolutely necessary to chasing gaudily painted whores.

    If it’s true that most people can’t see these resources, that is the fault of people who should be leading the culture but who are instead running it down the drain. It’s a failure of collective spirit. That’s a hard problem to solve. That’s why I’m encouraging people to work from the ground up. Honestly the solution lies in your hands. You have the power to restore the culture. Act upon the morality you want to see respected.

    Be the order you wish to see in the world.

    That, for me, is the ultimate commandment of masculinity. A real man does not sit around vainly waiting for someone else to fix society for him. Nor does he scrounge for meager scraps in a decadent, degenerate system. You’re already halfway there – you understand the problem. Now live out the answer. You will notice that the people around you subtly adjust to your higher expectations of them. Enough people doing this together and you will transform society. It has happened before, and it happens all the time.

    “Celibacy makes philosophers of men.”

    Haha. Maybe. There are plenty of philosophers who are not celibate. For my part, I was interested in philosophy before, during, and after my relationships. I studied philosophy mostly while in a long-term relationship with a great girl, who was no feminist. She studied philosophy under my influence, to be more like me.

    Now she is gone, but my knowledge can never be taken away from me.

    It’s true, suffering is the beginning of the path to wisdom. Do you want hang around at the entryway, a slave to your passions? Being jerked around by your desires, which you have no control over? That’s not pleasant, or admirable, and it’s not manhood.

    Anyway, it’s not about philosophy but about rediscovering traditional values and actually living them out somehow. People have pointed out that Christianity is in many ways too deep in now. In many ways it’s simply capitulated to the mainstream culture.

    As one option, I recommend you look into Islam. Go meet some actual Muslims, and ask them about what they do, what they believe, and observe how they live. Try to do so with an open mind, though the odds are against it. Take a look at this, for example:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/us/chapel-hill-muslim-student-shootings-north-carolina.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

    These are the people actually living amongst you. Notice the contrasts between the victims and the killer. In a way, these are the two endgames—these are the two stable states. A 6’3” dental student, training for a half-marathon, happily married to a young, beautiful, chaste wife, giving to the poor, praying to God. On the other hand the fat, balding, chinless lunatic, unemployed and packing heat.

    If this doesn’t appeal to you then try to regenerate Christianity. Or become a card-carrying Stoic. Or whatever. Just look beyond the end of your own dick.

  67. Oh, I wanted to add—very important. Regarding “celibacy makes philosophers of men.”

    Rollo Tomasi has very insightfully observed that men are idealists. This is not just a thing about what they expect from love and romance. This is a deep property of the male psyche. It’s that capacity for high-level abstract thought that makes them the most competent mathematicians, chess players, engineers, and computer scientists.

    One of the most important experiences I have had is wanting to seek that ideal, wanting a woman to live up to the ideal—and realizing that I was simply chasing a chimera. It wasn’t that she didn’t love me. It wasn’t that she was not a good woman. She was. It’s that she was human. Flawed; limited; finite. That search for absolute beauty is still what drives me to women, even in the absence of any sexual lust. But it is, ultimately, a chimera. No woman can live up to that ideal. Because it points beyond our flawed, finite, miserable little world entirely.

    That is all consistent with the things RT has insightfully pointed out thus far; but this is looking at it from the other end of the telescope. Like on Kendrick Lamar’s album. “See, you young men are dying of thirst.”

  68. @ “Kryptokate said “experience breeds apathy.” from an outcome independence standpoint, do any guys here actually get tired of banging chicks all the time?”

    Actually (although I would have laughed hard at that notion even three years ago, when I was having my first successes with PUA-trickery) – yes.

    My notch count is nothing to brag about (lower two digits, and no, not 10 or 11 :-D) – but “it” gets old fast.

    Part of that is that I have unreasonably high sexual performance expectations of women – once you tasted the cup of true alpha fux reaction, “normal”, run-of-the-mill vaginal intercourse doesn’t cut it anymore. You would sooner jerk off at home than e.g. use a condom or accept something like “no, not up the ass” or other STs like that.

    I’ve had one or two moments, when I successfully gamed a female that seemed hot – but when the clothes came of (or even before that) you suddenly are confronted with a frigthened girl or a really poor performer and you just think “Oh man, for THAT did I … like talk to her for two hours and do two location changes? Should have just get blasted and talked to my buddies..what a waste!”.

    Been in an LTR for a while (perma-drained balls, she is ok as far as females go, can’t complain or say anything bad about her; she does her part outside of the bedroom, too)…but the (AFC-) magic is lost.

    It’s just all females – even if you can’t get a specific female and no matter for what reason – as soon as you really internalize TRP-knowledge by putting real effort into learning AND applying it…you see an army of hypergamy-signal carrying drones that are constitutionally unable to be the way they are supposed to be. Ok, scratch “to be”, insert “to behave”.

    If you only apply TRP knowledge but don’t really get into it with your brain –> purple pill pro feminism-PUA-asshat.
    If you only learn TRP but don’t apply it –> monk mode (I guess).
    If you do both –> you get women. Even without ANY substantial improvement of body or money – but you see the drones programming unfolg into decision trees as the speak –> mundane, rather supply-like situation, you just hack into the programming.

  69. P.S.: The effect I talk about has nothing to do with physical attractivness – at least for me / in my personal experience.

  70. “I think Roosh’s argument about outcome independence of historical figures is flawed. I just don’t know what the flaw in his argument is yet. Anyone with me on that?”

    Yes – partly.

    The flaw is this:
    Napoleon, Hitler or Djengis Khan would have “gamed” like this:
    “Bring me this virgin, that hot milf over there and the exotic girl over there in her prime. My tent/bunker/castle at eigth, want to taste the wine/beer/goat-milk first with my comrades/drinking buddys/best warriors.”

    There would have been no need to add what would have happened in the case of non-compliance.

    Put Napeleon, Hitler or Djengis Khan in a sub-standart club full of arrogant HB4-5 without their POWER TO KILL – those small/foreign/freakish/creepy guys would be blown out of the water by Mr. Feodora with two jokes, one AMOG and a round of free shots.

    tldr:
    Roosh transplants the concept of OI from one domain to another without considering their interdependance in this article.

  71. Lucien – “Rollo Tomasi has very insightfully observed that men are idealists. This is not just a thing about what they expect from love and romance. This is a deep property of the male psyche.”

    Only God can make a tree, but it takes a man to conceive and execute an 18 hole golf course.

  72. @Sun

    Yeah, keep in mind, organized, state-married Christianity had financial reasons for keeping male sexuality in check… major financial reasons.

  73. @Kryptokate

    It’s not just the “losers” in the SMP with sourgrapes. I know a few guys who could *easily* do very well with women, but choose not to make any effort because they truly just don’t care that much.

    I think you should consider, before you say that, how SMV-ignorant most men are about themselves. Women have some intrinsic understanding of their value, and in many cases an over-inflated estimation of their SMV. Many many men have the exact opposite problem. They have a persistent belief, cultivated by society, that they’re just not worth that much in the SMP. This belief is often appearance independent and strong enough to resist any bombardment from random women attempting to change it with verbal reasoning or encouragement. The only thing that could possibly change that belief is getting laid easily as a lifestyle, and individual women can do nothing to that end.

  74. I suppose it looks awkward to me as a fallacy of faulty analogy.

    ” FAULTY ANALOGY: (can be literal or figurative) assumes that because two things, events, or situations are alike in some known respects, that they are alike in other unknown respects.

    example: What’s the big deal about the early pioneers killing a few Indians in order to settle the West? After all, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

    example: Banning “head” shops from selling drug paraphernalia in order to curb drug abuse makes about as much sense as banning bikinis to reduce promiscuity.”

  75. Those ‘coaches’ are marketing to women. Alexa agrees, well, except it shows no results for Women with Athol Kay. Further, UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine blocked MMSL as an “adult” site.

  76. @badpainter

    Jerky. Antelope Jerky.

    @fhqwhgads (sifrellc)

    If you type in “outdoorsman”, it will underline it as misspelled. “Outdoors-fag”, “outdoors-vagina”, and “outdoors-fuck” are perfectly acceptable, though. “Misandry” is misspelled, too. But “Nazi” is spelled right, even without proper capitalization: “nazi”. Way to make a masculine type feel welcome, huh? Who wouldn’t be compelled on some level to establish another “way”?

    As someone mentioned in previous comments, I, too, had to study game (and be accused of being a “natural” several times) in order to come to the understanding that the hitch in my game was not my interaction with women, but my inner game in a broader sense, that needed the tweaking. After critical introspection, I was able to troubleshoot and focus on what needed fixing.

    I had no troubles getting laid (ok, some), just as the other commenter had illustrated, there were dry spells, but I generally had vagina falling out of the sky into my lap otherwise. Ok, fine, I’m a natural, it’s nice, now that I understand it. However, my single mommy raised me to be a white knight douchebag. Bumbling along until about 30, I had no explanation for the ebbs and flows of my pussy success.

    Then I discovered the Red Pill, and here’s where my “MGTOW” motivations started formulating (mind you, before it was an expression). Whereas the general reaction to the red pill is to jump in and start gaming, my gaming phase was short-lived (a luxury of a natural, surely). I quickly started seeing toxicity everywhere; the hustles I had been duped into my entire life began to reveal themselves. I was living in a renter’s prison, my career was in the process of being shipped to China, the TV is pumping out tripe and insecurity to obese overpopulation, lemmings voting for coke or pepsi…

    What I came to understand was that my entire life until my early 30’s revolved around everyone else BUT myself. What mommy dearest wanted, what the family wanted, what women wanted, what my friends wanted, what the television wanted me to want, these things were all more important than WHAT I WANTED. Needless to say, women weren’t what I needed to focus on at that point. No, it became apparent that I was in a place to re-invent myself, and I needed to.

    So, after realizing the need to change, and knowing what to change, I had to establish some new goals. I had long harbored a desire to live in a rural setting, but wrote it off in the past. Why? The isolation. Being a single guy, I put country living out of my mind because of the obvious “lack of targets” associated with those areas.

    As you can see, I was afraid to follow my desires based on women. “I can’t do this, because there are no women to be found there.” Having grown up in a small rural town, I understood that any good looking people flee the boonies and head to where the hot people congregate: places like L.A., NYC, Florida, etc. So, in my head, I rationalized not doing what I wanted based on the availability of women.

    Clearly, that’s some blue-smelling shit that I had on my shoes, but, I do like women. After understanding my hang-up, I decided to make a goal, put an “X” on my map, to achieve what I had previously wrote off as a bad move – despite the isolation, which was a big mark in the “con” column. Instead of using women as the excuse not to, I removed women from the influence of my decision. I “isolated my will”, and picked “my way”. Essentially, I dropped a nuke on my life and made some pretty extreme sacrifices (sleeping in my car with 3 jobs for a few years) in order to hit the “fast-forward button” on my goals.

    In the process of making those sacrifices, I did manage to “stay in the game” due to the construct of my “escape plans”. I resigned myself to make a slow transition (2007-2009), keeping for myself some exposure to women via a link to the city that were my jobs. So, I still got my p-p wet, with FB’s and plate or two here-and-there. After a couple years, I bought my place with a sick down-payment. Then, I only slept in my car a few nights a week, the rest I spent frolicking in my new kingdom. I basically went to “part-time homeless commuter” instead of full-time. What a wild social experiment, a crazy exercise in game, trying to convince women, or anyone for that matter, that I wasn’t some dysfunctional junkie sleeping in my car because I was an epic failure, but by choice! THEN get laid? I made that shit look easy.

    It was during this time that a fantastic specimen presented herself, and after some qualification, turned out to have goals and ambitions that aligned with mine. I had a hard time believing I had met a chick that genuinely wanted to trip like I do! Like, WHOO-HOOO!!! FINALLY! I FOUND A NEEDLE!!! (“A”, not “the”) Of course, thanks to the red-pill, it took some time before she was fully vetted: her actions ultimately demonstrated congruence. She’s like, all up on my team and shit.

    I get into typing all this because I wanted to illustrate how “women” didn’t have much to do with my motivation. In fact, the isolation was a negative aspect of the way I chose, and I made parts of my action plan such that they negated that isolation. I went my way DESPITE women, not in accordance with them, or to somehow ultimately pander to them. Sure, there was a sidebar and provision, a “that would be nice, but not mandatory” clause, because, I do like women, two-at-a-time. I did know that better quality dudes attract better quality chicks, make no mistake. Still, there wasn’t any real failure in my past with women, save for the thought: “I’m thirty-something single again, and, I’m kinda excited. Is that sick?” I don’t condone “running away from women/society” necessarily (directions to Gault’s Gulch would be nice, though), I do however encourage “isolation of will”. Everyone has an agenda, and they’ll find their opportunities to sway your judgments, unless you run your life like a dictatorship instead of a democracy.

    My moves were to accommodate MY desires. Granted, there was a disappointment regarding women, it’s a natural side-effect. But, going my own way wasn’t some “running away” or “isolation” stunt, it was finally prioritizing myself over others. And THAT, I suppose, is the biggest benefit from the Red Pill that I received: a healthy dose of narcissism to offset the selfless dronehood of my past “Duracell days”. My way was an outcome, a by-product of, not cause of empowerment, though it no doubt could serve others to those ends.

    I wanted here to mention “walkabout”. From what I gathered, it’s a coming-of-age ritual where young men take themselves into the bush to discover themselves, a sort of spiritual journey for a youth to establish “who they are”. Our culture has nothing of that sort, and I could have benefitted by having went on walkabout as a youth.

    I think MGTOW is in that spirt of embracing a personal evolution, not a concrete commitment to some sort of “women suck” manifesto. “Fuck ’em for now”, for sure, but not “Fuck ’em forever!” Moreover, not every man’s “way” involves running off to be a mountain man. I did: I went from metro to hillbilly, it’s great for me. I’m like a fish back in water. I see many who promote MGTOW did something along those lines, too. Many grew out facial hair, even. But MGTOW =\= move out to the boondocks.

    Isolation was, indeed, a concern of mine. I can see how it stands as a critical obstacle to any single, horny dude considering relocating or focusing relentlessly on other goals. But, then I turned off the T.V., deleted my Facebook account, and had a change of perspectives. “Isolation” can be seen as a close relative of “scarcity mentality”, and easy to discount as an obstacle at all. Sure, sure, numbers game and all that. But, there is also the “quality of life in the meantime” to attend to, and women shouldn’t be the only factor in one’s quality of life.

  77. @vulpine

    MGTOW – men going THEIR OWN WAY.

    It is simply about men rediscovering their needs and wants and go after them. Every men should be symoathetic to this but – we are somehow witnessing the opposite. Why?

    Lets see a few of the consequences of MGTOW.

    1. Hard celibate MGTOW. These guys decrease the amount of attention and provisioning to women from men as a whole. Remaining men enjoy higher status in SMP.

    Result – HC MGTOW empower men as a group while simultaneously decrease the power of women as a group. If 50 percent of men went HC MGTOW, the remaining men would live in the pussy paradise. Women will be much more desperate for attention.

    2- MGTOW enjoying women under his terms. These guys establish some rules under which they are willing to engage with women. If their rules are not men then they are outta here.

    Result – again – men as a group are empowered, power of FI decreases. If 50 % of men went “MGTOW with rules” women will be either forced to behave to fulfill their genetic imperative or they will face very, very limited supply of men.

    It is clear than almost all MGTOW groups empower men as a group at the expense of FI. So WHY we have here this shaming of MGTOWs from men, even from the “red pill men”. JUst have a look at how is this “shaming” presented? Ooo poor loosers, desperate guys, guys who hate women, guys who are unworthy of women, guys who quit from desperation, rage quits, guys that were invisible enough to choose this invisibility willingly, …

    It is shaming tactics directly form the book of FI, words from the vocabulary of FI….only in this case they are coming from the mouth of males…ehm…”red pill” males.

    If shaming MGTOW by men is not the striking example of men unwillingly pursuing the goals of FI, than I don know what it is.

  78. To jump off of Gregg:

    Feminism had the effect of unilaterally decreasing the supply of feminine quality, by lowering standards, legitimizing sluttery and reducing competition. This is a self-reinforcing, collective dynamic.

    The response of men thus far: dealing with it. this includes everything encompassed within “Game” that I have seen.

    In short, women managed to increase demand for themselves by restricting supply. Now we all spend our time reading and commenting at a graduate level on how to get women to fuck us.

    The only rational response that will have any real consequence is: tit for tat. Reduce the supply of male attention. Right now we are in a perverse self-defeating cycle of individual rationality and collective irrationality.

    Every thing you are doing is gratifying female vanity, which is really their ultimate currency. Along the way to a single lay, you gratify tons of women and reinforce their shitty behaviors and attitudes.

    In short, the response to decreased overall female quality has been perversely to give them more of what they want: attention. You have to find some way of punishing women, as a group, for doing the wrong thing.

    MGTOW is the only thing with any promise in this respect. It’s not about swearing off women or anything. Nor is it an alternative to understanding the “red pill” truths. Frankly women have been walking into my life all the time, even when I’m trying to get them often the most success I get them coming to me. I’m not saying that’s ideal: but if you’re a man of quality you will be found out.

    The important thing is not to bid up the price even further. This is pretty consistent with a lot of stuff Heartiste says – flipping the script and all that. Of course I’ve always hated the spectacle of both sides playing hard to get. It implies just unilaterally taking yourself off the market. But if women are really as shitty as most people in the manosphere seem to think they are, then you’re not really getting much for your money in the first place. And you are not alone – many others have the same reading of the situation. If enough people do this it will have an impact.

    In other words, get pussy, or don’t, but under no circumstances should you contribute to bidding up the price. Don’t ever reward women with attention for behaving badly. Stop rewarding them with your attention for dressing and behaving like sluts. Actually there are plenty of girls out there who such at playing this game as well, but who have plenty of good things to recommend them. Find these girls instead.

    Of course, there used to be systems to enforce and punish this collectively rational solution. Don’t know if we will get there through spontaneous coordination. But hey, we’ve got these websites.

  79. “It is clear than almost all MGTOW groups empower men as a group at the expense of FI. So WHY we have here this shaming of MGTOWs from men, even from the “red pill men”. JUst have a look at how is this “shaming” presented? Ooo poor loosers, desperate guys, guys who hate women, guys who are unworthy of women, guys who quit from desperation, rage quits, guys that were invisible enough to choose this invisibility willingly, …

    It is shaming tactics directly form the book of FI, words from the vocabulary of FI….only in this case they are coming from the mouth of males…ehm…”red pill” males.”
    Few here are saying that.
    Anything that damages the FI is good for all men – no matter if alpha or omega.
    ____________________
    “Of course, there used to be systems to enforce and punish this collectively rational solution. Don’t know if we will get there through spontaneous coordination.”
    One word: IS.
    Pussyless and nothing to loose –> forceful (hence overblown and arriving with collateral damage) DEvolution of social norms closer to an (Hobbes-like) REvolution to “state of nature” by men.

  80. “In short, women managed to increase demand for themselves by restricting supply. Now we all spend our time reading and commenting at a graduate level on how to get women to fuck us.

    The only rational response that will have any real consequence is: tit for tat. Reduce the supply of male attention. Right now we are in a perverse self-defeating cycle of individual rationality and collective irrationality”
    I agree.

    Pragmatic-rational self-interest and common good can be combined in a VERY, very simple way:
    The same way you can further other, arbitrary goals by collective funding, e.g. in (real) Fair Trade: Neglectible cost individually, slow impact on a wide scale.

    Not even “not bidding up the price” of pussy – disregard and (at no or almost no personal cost) curb FI/females whereever possible.

    Form cutting in line at the supermarket to letting them stand in the rain to not taking part in single-mom”reweddings” – every one of us can do a thousand little things which
    a) cost you nothing and can even be fun/break up everyday routine
    b) chip away at the pedastal
    c) sligthly increase your SMV under current (abnormal) conditions

  81. Feminism even teaches us how to do it – don’t hire women. Don’t promote/mentor/support them. Don’t reward them for … and so on, just reverse-engineer everything they say.

  82. Some red-pillers aren’t paying attention. They’re too busy looking at the woman in the red dress.

    Look again…

    Oops! Mid-life crisis!

    Cypher wanted back in, no memory, but he wanted to be rich, you know, important. But not “too” important.

    Cypher was likely born in the early nineties and raised by a single mommy: An entitled fourth-generation FI inbred millenial, avoiding personal responsibility, hoping someone changes their Facebook status to something besides “victim” for them. Well, he initially took the red-pill, so…

    “Side effects may vary. Go upstairs and ask your mommy if you are healthy enough to have sex.”

    Apparently the red-pill “doesn’t take” for some, just as some don’t “get high” from smoking weed, or someone might be allergic to peanuts.

    Trolls troll, haters hate, women get on the manosphere and pretend, some people are just plain, old-fashioned stupid. That explains the FI shame more than any true misunderstanding of it, I think.

    Psst… bro-thren… red-pill awareness helps get you more than pussy.

    *Bro looking up from “woman in red xoxo” poster* Shut up, faggot! You beta pussy!

  83. I’m tickled by Lucien’s jump-off.

    I’ve been watching, and in my post-red-pill-evolution have seen some changes starting to happen. Television portrays some healthy masculine models, movies have demonstrated red-pill influence, and now Lucien outlines a fundamental commandment, like a first rule of fight club.

    The first rule of the manosphere is: you do not bid up the price of pussy.
    The second rule of the manoshpere is: YOU DO NOT BID UP THE PRICE OF PUSSY!

    I like it! Portable, digestable… and very “bros before hoes” oriented.

    There is hope.

  84. I agree that “bidding up” is wrong, and if there’s a #1 rule, that would be a good contender.

    I disagree that going out, approaching, practicing game, learning how to interact and dare I say, manipulate a situation automatically means that I am bidding up the price.

    There’s no disagreement on the fact that giving women attention (“performing” as Roosh calls it) is active ego boosting of ladies, many of whom have attitudes so poor and self-centered that they don’t deserve the attention.

    There should be disagreement on the idea that attention alone is the only goal the women in the SMP have. There should also be disagreement on the what expectations women have depending on the situation they put themselves in.

    Practicing game has an infinite number of outcomes. Outcome independence is often taken to mean “moving on” from bad outcomes without significant loss of enthusiasm. Outcome independence should mean something more akin to social exploration and field testing with no preconceptions of the conclusion.

    Scientists who practice their method correctly do field testing with no expectations on outcome. They keep an open mind. The ones who do this are often frustrated for decades before finding a subject or avenue of investigation that is worth publishing. This time and effort is not wasted, significant gains are made on learning pitfalls and techniques that otherwise had not been documented. The effort ends up being its own reward, and teaches the scientist far more than they would have ever learned in a classroom.

    Likewise, with practicing game. It is simplistic to look at it as simply a male performing for a female. While that is undoubtedly the case in many instances, the smart man isn’t so much performing as probing and learning what situations allow for which responses. He’s learning not just how to handle women, but how to maintain frame in all kinds of social situations. This has tremendous spillover effects into many areas of a mans life. That time spent “performing” and potentially “bidding up the price” has individual value that cannot be realized by anyone who hasn’t spent the time and “done the math”.

    And keep in mind, I’m speaking from a position of having not “done the math”

  85. The only reason the sphere is suddenly slandering miggy toes is because the cost of our lack of energy input into the system is being transferred unto the ‘alpha’ ‘winners.’

    You are angry the we are no longer carrying YOUR water.

    Your harem size is gone down,your cost of doing business is up,your turnover rate is higher.

    Meanwhile our resources are back to where they belong: to ourselves.

    Not only are you ungrateful for the unjust gains you’ve stolen at our cost,you now feel the need to slander the slaves as they leave the plantation.

    We are the winners now,your cost will soon be unsustainable.

  86. @Jeremy

    I think it’s an inevitable reality that to have success in the SMP, you must bid up the pussy. Hypergamy demands it. If she’s the one you’re going home with, you’re the highest bidder that night.

    Whether you’re the highest bid she ever had is up for debate, but you can’t know that one for a fact either. Makes it kind of impossible to avoid bidding up.

  87. @Rollo Tomassi

    Look at the blogs of Sama, Evan Mark Katz, Mark Manson, Athol Kay, Sheila Gregoire and HUS in succession and you’ll see the cookie cutter in action.

    http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/therationalmale.com

    wait wait wait… how does Alexa know that the visitors to RM are predominantly people with graduate degrees? (btw, among all those sites listed, this place has the highest educational expectations in readership per alexas stats)

  88. wait wait wait… how does Alexa know that the visitors to RM are predominantly people with graduate degrees? (btw, among all those sites listed, this place has the highest educational expectations in readership per alexas stats)

    The manosphere in general is very skewed towards highly educated men. Not everyone is like that, of course, but the *proportion* who are is very aberrational from the general split in the population. This is in part because of the desire to learn being greater, and probably also in part due to the need to learn being greater, among this group.

  89. @freebird

    We are the winners now,your cost will soon be unsustainable.

    Are you talking to guys still participating in the SMP here? If so, I don’t think you understand how economics 101…

  90. @Jeremy

    wait wait wait… how does Alexa know that the visitors to RM are predominantly people with graduate degrees?

    Welcome to the power of Big Data. I’m betting they know the browsing patterns of educated males through a lot of aggregate data. Next step is just to check how many people with those browsing patterns come here.

    Just because you’re smart and educated doesn’t mean you’re any less predictable.

  91. @Sun Wukong

    I think it’s an inevitable reality that to have success in the SMP, you must bid up the pussy. Hypergamy demands it…

    Hypergamy can demand all it wants. I can demand someone purchase my home for my asking price, but ultimately I must settle for whatever someone offers me. Standard game operating procedure has men going out into public, in places where significant numbers of women are expected to be, and approaching until you get numbers or a direct-to-lay.

    That’s the equivalent of buying retail price at the mall where the suppliers know they have exactly what you need, and that you don’t want to get back in your car to look somewhere else. That’s bidding it up, and you’ll get no disagreement from me as to whether the vast majority of game practitioners operate in this manner.

    But then I look at day game, where you’re catching the “merchants” outside of their normal “auction environment”, they aren’t looking to make a sale, they aren’t even displaying all the merchandise… and to me that says that there’s other ways to utilize game that do not serve the selfish women seeking attention.

    Besides which, wouldn’t it be considered part of game to be able to vet women as base attention whores before giving them too much attention?

    I do see it Vulpines way though. If more men, particularly those who are skilled at holding frame and “performing” for the ladies, simply demanded that women qualify themselves more in the interaction… the “prices” would definitely come down.

  92. @Jeremy

    If more men, particularly those who are skilled at holding frame and “performing” for the ladies, simply demanded that women qualify themselves more in the interaction… the “prices” would definitely come down.

    And if everybody would just vote for me I’d be the king of Earth.

    I think it’s got about the same likelihood of happening though.

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