The Isolationists

isolation

Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:

It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.

Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.

That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.

I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.

So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

I touched on this in Vulnerability:

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.

Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.

With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.

Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.

There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.

The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.

The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.

With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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mdavid
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M. Simon, Your advice is just wonderful. Traditional women – you probably can’t find one and they are the best option so forget figuring out how women work generally and get your rainbow unicorn – guaranteed to make you happy LOL. My advice is useful only for traditional, religious men (my reply was to Nova, who fits this bill). I offer men like yourself no advice whatsoever except to have low expectations for intimate female relationships. Females unleashed from family and culture are not very inspiring. I disagree my advice is unicorn territory. It has worked for many I know,… Read more »

Jeremy
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OT… has anyone caught up with the U.S. version of “House of Cards” ? There are scenes in the new season that come across like they were written by people in the manosphere. It was almost shocking to see.

Eric Castaneda
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@Badpainter you have to make sacrifices in life if you want something bad enough. You won’t have to go out and approach women for 5 years. If you choose to you can but you don’t have to. Most guys I coach go out for a year or two 3 nights a week. Are they going to lose opportunity of course that what it takes however I can tell you from the guys that I coached who are successful (millionaires and multi-millionaires) they have money but they are LONELY ass hell and they are quite miserable. Good pussy may rent for… Read more »

Octavian
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@Jeremy Its not a state of discontent, its a state of growth driven by challenge .An altogether different concept entirely from the reproduction-centric state of constant discontent women experience. A good way to put it -A USN BUD/S cadre instructor was once asked why his unit called training exercises “evolutions”. In essence, his response was challenging yourself to do what you believed going in you couldnt constitutes an evolution of your character. Further-philosphically and practically a man can choose to feel discontent or not. I might feel it a discontentful state that my Netflix wont work, until I read about… Read more »

Jeremy
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@BP & Eric… The relative value you place on women being in your life is a direct reflection of how you feel women have treated you in the past. It is going to be different for everyone because everyone has had a (presumably) quite different life to this point. Men who had good mothers who did not abuse them in any way, and good sisters will find themselves totally non-questioning w.r.t. having women in their life. They may have some blue-latent pill mindset’s to overcome, some date-coaching that is needed, but the value assigned to female company is worth it… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Octavian

…its a state of growth driven by challenge…

Why grow? Why accept a challenge?

We can fence over language, but that isn’t satisfying. I submit that the only reason men accept challenges is because there is some low-level yet deep-seated discontent with the self, and getting out of a comfort zone to demonstrate value is driven by that.

Perfectly contented people do not accept challenges. Perfectly contented people do not grow. Only with the existence of discontent is action and growth a factor in our lives.

Eric Castaneda
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@Jeremy I agree with you 100% A man has to move past his issues before he can have any success with women. Women can FEEL when you don’t like women. I remember when I had just broken up with my ex- girlfriend of 2 years and I immediately when out and tried to approach new women, I failed miserably. It wasn’t because I wasn’t good enough, looking back on it I had so much anger and hurt that still lingered from that relationship that it blocked me from being able to attract new women into my life. Once I moved… Read more »

Jeremy
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It’s not hate or anger Eric, it’s self-preservation. It’s root is the preservation of self. It manifests as hate or anger, but that’s not what it is. In a sexually dimorphic species, each sex bases their value on how valuable for the reproduction of the species the other sex finds them. It could not be otherwise in a dominant species such as humans (or else we wouldn’t be dominant). Since we base our sexual self-value (and a large part of our own value) on what members of the opposite sex find in us, this makes all of us particularly vulnerable… Read more »

Lucien
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I’ve been an isolationist my whole life. One of the sad things for me to see, though, is that men who feel this isolationist impulse are not getting one specific kind of advice that I think would serve them well. Yes, sex is something you desire; but there are higher things. Higher things. In these “manosphere” discussions even a refusal to chase pussy is construed in a merely negative sense. As the damage of feminism piles up, many of us will not be able to succeed. That is inevitable. What are you going to do instead? Channel that energy into… Read more »

Jeremy
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Becoming a celibate philosopher who anyone gives a damn about 50 years from now, let alone 2000+, is probably harder than winning the lottery.

You might actually do better for yourself spilling your seed on random passerbys.

Jack LeBear
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chairborne Didn’t get what Rollo wrote: “Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with.” The point is not that the mission itself is appealing to women, it is that the MAN who is on mission is more appealing than a man who puts what women want ahead of his own self. The man on mission is setting his own self as his mental point of origin. The nature of that mission is a separate issue. I rejected the Deida folks’ insistence that a man has… Read more »

Tilikum
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@ rollo

“Any sufficiently rational Red Pill observation is indistinguishable from hate to a Blue Pill conditioned mindset.”

This sir, is the sum takeaway from the comment storms in these last few threads in a nutshell.

I continue to hope its the drop in T from colder weather that will re-manifest itself in how should I say, less pansy Red Pill regurgitation that has filled the comment section the last few weeks.

Vitamin D supplements and lots a bacon in the winter boys, you’ll be much less likely to mortgage your masculinity this way.

Bromeo
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“Rollo did not misunderstand MGTOW. Misunderstanding implies that he can actually change his mind. Men like Rollo or Roosh, they are at their core, white knights who learned to attract women. They are manginas who learned Game.”

LOL, people are going off on that MGTOW forum. MGTOW’s are like feminists, they are unable to perform in the SMP so they give up and then bash the high performers for doing so well. Well, more pussy for me.

Tom
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Various writers have crunched the numbers to show that financially, escorts are the lowest cost-per-fuck way to go (cheaper than both PU and/or marriage) if getting your load off with a woman who won’t stay around and need cuddling, breakfast, and post-sex niceties is what you’re after.

Octavian
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@ Jack Lebear “it is that the MAN who is on mission is more appealing than a man who puts what women want ahead of his own self” And we return to the problem of defining a man’s mission by its worth to women, even at a remove. If we approach that phrase rationally, its a circular situation. Imagine how nonsensical it would be to say that I dont care what women think, so im going to buy a Maserati because women think wet thoughts about Maseratis. Im not buying the car to get laid, nuh-unh; but the exhaust note… Read more »

Tilikum
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@ Tom

Young, hot, Starbucks. Get the gold card, and refills on Green tea are free.

Average CPL in April (the start month of Girlfriend season), May, June of 2012 was $3.18. LPM, 6.33. True, it was a particularly fruitful season opener, but you make hay while the sun shines.

M Simon
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mdavid March 2nd, 2015 at 3:08 pm Funny that. I have a LTR with a woman going on 40+ years at this point. But I WAS spinning plates during our 10 year dating period. And 4 children. And the best part? SHE has bestitis for me. She can’t get enough. She tells me often she likes being my doormat. I’d rate her a 9 when we started going together. Slim with 42Ds. A nice handful. I have big hands. Just a tad short for my taste though. My minimum was 5’7″. She is 5’6″. Ah. well. And bright. I’d estimate… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Tom An escort feels to me like… masturbation with a live target. I suppose to me the point of learning from PUA is to be able to build the skills needed to deal with women in all aspects of life. If you can manipulate a woman to do the thing nature has conditioned her to refuse, everything else is easy. Getting laid in the process is just icing on the cake. Also, the times when my game has been on, it actually feels kind of awesome to be in the moment gaming a chick. A real boost to confidence. It… Read more »

Eric Castaneda
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@Jeremy I disagree with you that rejection from the opposite sex always cuts deep. At this point in my life it literally doesn’t bother me AT ALL. Of course, like every other men I don’t like rejection from women but once the interaction is over I’m not bothered one bit. I just go talk to the next woman. If rejection from women always bothers a guy then from my experience he simply doesn’t talk to enough women thus he has a scarcity mentality. Point, blank, period. Funny enough rejection from women actually drives me at this point in my life… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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@Rollo Do you consider yourself part of the PUA community? I know you are often “put there” by others in the manosphere, but I wonder what your opinion is. I guess it is the best fit considering the options, but you are kind of uncatagorizable in my mind. Anyway, what I’ve culled from the above comments and reading the MGTOW stuff is that you really aren’t all that far apart. Be outcome independant where any given girl is concerned, but have a plan for the macro. If you’re hurt, go MGTOW until you are all healed up. Then come back… Read more »

Eric Castaneda
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@Tom numbers have shown that it’s cheaper and creates more profit for clothing designers to put people into sweatshops and pay them slave wages and not give me a lunch break but does that mean it’s a good idea?

When you pay for an escort it erodes your soul, kills your confidence and empties your wallet, I know guys who do it and they are miserable. An escort is a short term solution for a long term problem but hey to each his own.

Eric Castaneda
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@ Rollo

I put your book in my recommended reading sources in my dating ebook. I would love to send you a copy once it’s finished being proofread and edited if you are interested.

The Ronin
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I think many are falling the old the “divide and conquer routine”, perfect plan for maintaining the status quo…split up the differering Men’s camps and we have far less power to change anything. The MGTOW thing is being made into another pigeon hole label that it isn’t. I consider myself MGTOW, but I don’t go out of my way to avoid women or isolate myself, I just don’t think molding a big chunk of my life around chasing/peacocking for pussy is worthwhile. I hit the gym, dress well and and am active in a big way in my community because… Read more »

Novaseeker
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I guess I just don’t understand the squable I guess.

It’s the more militant MGTOWs that create the problem, not the temporary/therapeutic MGTOWs or the married/LTR “mindset MGTOWs”. The militant ones think anything other than MGTOW is irrational — so they attract flack — and also tend to be exceptionally negative minded about women as a group.

Eric Castaneda
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@ Rollo I’m excited about your new book and I can honestly say that your book just made my game even tighter, mindset wise. A lot of guys don’t realize how fucking important mindset is when it comes to dealing with women. From my experience of coaching guys and being in the field all the time mindset is 80% of success with women and 20% of it is the mechanics. I’ll give guys the mechanics and they don’t have the mindset and they constantly sabotage their own success. It’s crazy! Anyway my book will be done proofread and edited next… Read more »

Jack LeBear
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@ Octavian “If we approach that phrase rationally, its a circular situation….” Exactly. You can’t approach that phrase rationally because it is a paradox. However, if you “…go about my life decisions with at best tangential concern to the opposite gender,…” then they will in fact be that much more likely to care about you. I’m having difficulty understanding all the pessimism, nihilism and fear around here. There must be a lot of men making poor choices about what women they get involved with, as I did pre RP. How about this for a criterion for selecting women: She is… Read more »

LiveFearless
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Elevated estrogen also affects men .

The Diplomat
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@Divided Line “What do you want? A merit badge? Nobody cares.” Untrue. I care. Rollo cares. Most everybody here on RM cares. And I suspect YOU care, or you’d go somewhere else, like, I don’t know…”Your Own Way.” Exerting RP awareness on those closest to me is extremely important. It matters. Maybe you are alone, angry and desperate to reconcile what you’ve lost but aren’t willing to take that 800 pound chip off your shoulder and rebuild yourself into a stronger man. I understand that it’s hard work and you miss the promise of the Blue Pill fantasy, but trust… Read more »

The Diplomat
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@Rollo

Good pants-down spank on Manson.

Jeremy
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@Rollo Tomassi

MRAs loved me until the MSM blamed them for the Eliot Rodger mess and suddenly I’m one of the PUAs they promptly threw under the bus.

Huh? What did I miss? I don’t specifically recall anything directed your way during that incident.

mdavid
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Lucien, Yes, sex is something you desire; but there are higher things. Higher things. In these “manosphere” discussions even a refusal to chase pussy is construed in a merely negative sense… Yes. This. These traditions are not an accident. And I found the truth in them even when I was with women – who never fully lived up to my ideal. They are just signs pointing us to something greater. Again, yes. The problem with you all is that you no longer have these options; you live in a thoroughly secularized society. So you don’t realize what it is you… Read more »

Novaseeker
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The last two LTRs I‘ve had were with women who had been married for 20+ years and one husband left to go be gay, the other left because he wanted to dedicate himself to his alcoholism.

Not saying this wasn’t true in these cases but …. those are two of the most stereotypical covers for women who are looking to hide what actually happened in the marriage. Those things happen, but not commonly after 20+ years, and it’s just the easy way for a woman to cover up what really happened, in many cases (not necessarily those cases).

LiveFearless
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Estrogen… “sexual caution”
men possess between 12 and17 times the amount of testosterone (the primary hormone in sexual arousal) women do…

women produce substantially more estrogen (instrumental in sexual caution) ~Rollo Tomassi, in Schedules of Mating

Sexual caution may help “willfully override the need”

you can willfully override the need, just like you can overcome hunger while you’re fasting or on a hunger strike, but the need is still the operative in that act of will. ~Rollo Tomassi, from his essay You Need Sex

The Ronin
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“Not saying this wasn’t true in these cases but …. those are two of the most stereotypical covers for women who are looking to hide what actually happened in the marriage. Those things happen, but not commonly after 20+ years, and it’s just the easy way for a woman to cover up what really happened, in many cases (not necessarily those cases).” I have to agree with this, the math never lines up with the law of averages. I can count on two fingers the number women I’ve met post divorce that took any responsibility for the end of their… Read more »

sjfrellc
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Vulpine I appreciate your words. I purchased a hunting property on a whim in 2007. I had not ever hunted before, but it was a beautiful piece of wildlife. I took on a LTR with nature and going out by myself learning new skills. All my life I wanted to be alone as an introvert and master my domain. Over the years since I have had an incredible ride, not unlike an epic 5000 mile motorcyle ride. I learned botany, farming, planting trees, chainsawing, deer habitat manipulation,farming, extensive gardening, getting in good with rural neighbor’s by being a taker not… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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For those suggesting traditional religion is some kind of panacea: of the ~15 chicks that were in my peer group at church from muddle to high school, my sister and two others were the only ones that made it to 18 years old without getting knocked up. ALL of them drank heavily (yes even my sister) and used the innocent church girl game as a cover. Christian women, especially the ones that swing the Bible hard, are easier non-married lays than many feminists in my experience. AWALT, especially when they have God to trot out as a cover. Hypergamy doesn’t… Read more »

Jeremy
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“Jesus forgives you.” == Greenlight to hypergamy.

Hobbes
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Haven’t read all the comments yet, but this post got me thinking about this topic in a new way. I always resolved the conflict of OI by assuming that you should be OI with any one particular woman, while being OD with women in general. For example, I care and i am OD on my desire to have sex- that is the priority, and on that count the only honest answer is that I care about getting laid- one way or another. I apply OI by realizing that no one particular woman is “the one” I have to get laid… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy In some ways it’s even worse than that. Think about how Christianity arranges access to sex. It’s only allowed in a committed relationship. A man is required to give up the keys to his gates to get access to hers. The more sincerely pious you are, the more she knows you’re bluffing with any form of dread game. No power in the relationship by default. A lot of calls on her part for “unconditional love” (as advertised in the Bible) when she balloons up 100 lbs though. Side note: the only reason my sister wasn’t knocked up was because… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Hobbes

you should be OI with any one particular woman, while being OD with women in general.

You know, without verbalizing it I have the feeling that’s how I’ve applied it. Going forward I’ll definitely be thinking of it that way explicitly. I like it.

SphinX862
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@ Novaseeker

“In any free market system, there is a certain percentage who will be losers, and the SMP is no exception to that. To me, it’s better that these people go off and do their own thing and write blogs bitching about women than it is for them to go postal.”

Or better for them to MGTOW, than settle for a low SMV women.

Jack LeBear
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@ Ronin “I have to agree with this, the math never lines up with the law of averages. I can count on two fingers the number women I’ve met post divorce that took any responsibility for the end of their marriages, it’s always some evil husband.” I didn’t claim that they took responsibility for their part in the failure of their marriages. Being with them for 3 and 5.5 years made it clear that they do indeed have an unusually strong sense of loyalty to their relationships. Probably the main source of failure in their marriages was too much BP… Read more »

Octavian
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Octavian
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The Sexual Market Place isn’t a fixed entity. A man with perfectly good SMV may nevertheless find himself in a place where he’s toast. A military guy posted to an isolated base is a great example of this. You can have tight game : but if you’re a Marine and on a base with a 60:1 male female ratio it won’t do you squat dick of good in terms of getting laid. Not unless you take leave or get promoted to unit Commander….. The idea most men can’t compete in the SMV is more about social programming and defective mindset… Read more »

Jack LeBear
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Jack LeBear
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Is SJFRELLC an acronym?

SphinX862
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SphinX862
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Outcome independence is not losing your frame in the face of rejection. It’s a state of mind. Abandoning a goal deemed worthy is not outcome independence, it’s quitting.

Although MGTOW’s quitting on women and especially ltr’s/marriage seems rational given the costs/risks and the fact that most men won’t be able to attain a high SMV woman. Why should any man settle?

The YouTube channels of MGTOW’s Bar Bar and Thinking Ape are excellent.

Jack LeBear
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Jack LeBear
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“…that most men won’t be able to attain a high SMV woman. Why should any man settle?”

I suspect that a lot of men are MGTOWing because they have a high expectation of being with physically beautiful women. Sun Wukong has directly said that.

Don’t forget that there is a trade off between high HB and neurotic behavior in a woman. If you want a unicorn who is beautiful and has a great personality and relationship loyalty, you’ll need to patiently play a numbers game. You need to increase your sample space. MGTOW is the opposite of doing that.

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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Is SJFRELLC an acronym?
Yes, an inscrutable, mastermind type of acronym. If you imagine that it has no meaning at all it will assuage any fears that you may harbor.

A made up acronym with no meaning.
Yes. An Inscrutable. Yes.

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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Pardon me but why do you ask?

OllBlueEyes
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OllBlueEyes
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Awesome discussion; I’ve been slowly (sadly) nodding my head to most posts here. There is also the nagging delusion of “the one” to blame here. I’ve been single all my life and left the game years ago. Before I quit, I would always ask those who were in successful relationships advice: where/how they met, what they did, etc. In almost every instance the answer had some variation of this: “After our first date I knew I’d marry this girl/guy.” A lovely sentiment. And, alas, one that is completely foreign to me. I have never met a single, AVAILABLE woman, who,… Read more »

Kryptokate
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Kryptokate
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Rollo, is your doubt about the veracity of outcome-independence meant to apply to all men who choose not to actively pursue women, or specifically to men who learn about RP and then adopt MGTOW as a philosophy? Because while your points are well-considered with respect to many “officially” MGTOW men, I totally disagree when it comes to guys who just decide to swear off or stop pursuing women: 1. It’s not just the “losers” in the SMP with sourgrapes. I know a few guys who could *easily* do very well with women, but choose not to make any effort because… Read more »

Kryptokate
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Kryptokate
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Also, now that I think about it in relation to the men I know, I think voluntary celibacy is actually fairly common at the very top of the SMP, just as involuntary celibacy is at the bottom. I know guys at the absolute top of the market (where I live, anyway), who go for years without sex because they refuse to settle for anyone who doesn’t live up that they consider beneath them — if she isn’t model gorgeous with a PhD and high earning who speaks 3 languages, they’d rather not play. This comes, of course, with the mindset… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Octavian Social schemas and mindset have not only held back capable men, but put guys WAY above their SMV in the reach of lower tier women . This one has cropped up a lot of times in discussions here actually. Part of third wave feminism’s push for SMV inflation of all women putting hypergamy in overdrive created an interesting situation where HB8+ quite literally can’t satisfy their hypergamy. Assuming the inflation that I’ve seen (about 2-3 points) it’s impossible. There’s not enough HG10s to go around for the HB8s, and there’s no such thing as an HG 11-13. They quite… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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Of course it also doesn’t help that thanks to the obesity epidemic probably less than 5% of the female population are actual HB6+ these days.

Badpainter
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Badpainter
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@ Jeremy Your comment to Eric and myself really struck a nerve.  My brother and I have been round and round on this issue. He thinks we were abused, emotionally. I think nothing I could describe would rise to that standard, and attempting to do so would only me make e a whiner…but that was a part of the conditioning, the expectation to assume full responsibility for my actions, and  inactions and existence in general.  Oh and how well we were trained and indoctrinated. We were the perfect servants of others needs and wants always responsible for everything we were… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@bp It may not have been abusive treatment in the same way what I faced was, but it was neglectful in failing to prepare you for the real world. It sounds like your mother did what mine did when she wasn’t being outright abusive: punished me for not making her life easier and prioritizing strictly on that. The icing on the cake after 18 years of that treatment: the day I left for college, she and my sister went in to my room, tore out all the sheets books, clothing blinds, posters, and basically all my personal effects and redecorated… Read more »

TheLastCoyote
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TheLastCoyote
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@Rollo – someone else may have asked this, but I haven’t read the comments…in the last sentence of this post, you said, “…you must have a reality she wants to enter into before you can maintain it.” Would love to see you expand on that in your next post. Keep the hits coming.

gregg
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gregg
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“Life of a quiet desperation” – I personally know too much married men, who live just like that. They do not present their own opinion on anything, it´s like they have already ..died inside. I know from experience that you eventulally grow tired of fucking ANY woman…and after that moment….it is just “sacrifice” for the family, for your children, for you marriage, for the state…you name it. There is no coincidence that author is married man…i think that his motivation to write about the cruelty of hypergamy is precisely that of learning..the hard way the inevitable consequences of marriage. There… Read more »

gregg
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gregg
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@kryptokate SUPERB post, this is what I am trying to say but I am not able to do it so smoothly. Married men with children sacrified very much from their personal lives to live that life and they realize it ..every mninute. Hardcore PUAS are spending lot of time and effort to pursue ton´s of women to get good lays. Status and money pursuing guys are doing tons of work to get at the top. They all expect from other people to recognize and to value it…it gives meaning to their work, to their sacrifice. And now they have the… Read more »

Tilikum
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Tilikum
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@gregg

You are merely espousing the other part of the (false and shockingly unimaginative) MGTOW binary.

Namely, that you can’t be a good, full time father AND a player. Lack of imagination. Women are (other than for nine months) IRRELEVANT and interchangeable.

Lion model dude. Don’t wish it wasn’t true, wish you were better.

Johnycomelately
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Johnycomelately
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Most men are betas (80/20) and despite the evo psych explanation of men desiring to spread their seed the reality is most men want a long term monogamous relationship with a low n woman (like Rollo). For most men the Masculine Imperative is monogamy. For women it’s the exact opposite, the FI wants serial polygyny . Open hyperagamy or serial polygyny hasn’t increased the SMV of women, if anything it’s decreased it, what it has done though is increase the price of monogamy stratospherically. Sure women will eventually succumb to monogamy but only on their terms and only if they… Read more »

447
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447
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@”Women hate genuine monogamy and game teaches men how to become serial fuckers, the FI wants open hyperagamy and game dutifully teaches men how to sexyfying themselves to become sexy fuckers.” You seem to confuse the mainstream-better-beta-PU-advice (that always and in a very conspicious way ONLY focusses on generating attraction and relegiously stays away from “judging” women at all) with serious red pill discussions/approaches. Of course the FI loves serial fuckers – IF they stay in their exact corner and don’t “abuse their power” to do what they like. The moment a FI-approved “serial fucker” starts to… a) fuck legal,… Read more »

yossarian
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yossarian
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As a young man, I was a jock. Rugby. Local club. Exposure. Etc. The womynz were crazy….Stalked me, followed me, sex in bathrooms, fields, cars, vans, etc. About 28, I decided I wanted to “hug” and “caress” one at the night. Mother fucking WRONG!!!! She turned me ina whimpering puppy (with my full cooperation of course). Complete reversal of roles. God knows how long I suffered then chasing my “ONE.” Anyway, blue or red pill, I am becoming more adept to believe that maybe the FI does have this mother fucker on lock down. I was the “sexy fucker” for… Read more »

LiveFearless
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Obese guys are selling their souls for money and fame to push BETA GAME on the majority of males that are unaware of the truth because someone here has not told every man about “The Rational Male” (book & blog). My Grandparents enjoyed 70 years in near bliss, that would be nice, but the obese “males” are paid well to act like BETA GAME works in 2015. Are you on twitter? It doesn’t make sense to you? It’s time to get there, fast. Why? Because “males” are paid B-list celebrity fees to push BETA GAME. It’s true. They are paid… Read more »

yossarian
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yossarian
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Resorted to phone typing on the metro.
Mistakes were made…grammatical.
I am at certain level “obsessed” with escaping the Matrix. The part about ” how ” is my work in progress. I study on it devoutly. I am diligent.
Great posts Rollo. Excellent comments lads. Sharing our experiences is a tremendous advantage. Thank you.

yossarian
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yossarian
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The SMP is merciless.
The average lesser beta male entering it in his 40’s (clueless and deluded) is a recipe for disaster. Women are rock stars and he is nothing but another pathetic orbiter. Without looks or game, especially asshole game, nothing saves you in the Western Culture. I wish I could’ve rejoiced in the ” wife of my youth “, but that is a mere fantasy now.
You all have a lovely day.

The CPT
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The CPT
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Hitting the pause button is a healthy thing. I usually test INTJ on most Briggs-Meyers tests and it always comes down to having time to recharge your batteries. I feel this way after being at a social outing or dealing with any women. They can be draining. My more extroverted counterparts need the constant contact and attention that I could care less about. I like retreating into my own head, making a few changes, then coming back out (hitting the Play button) and being ready to conquer the situation. Now if this extended for years, I would say it’s problematic,… Read more »

walawala
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walawala
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I can relate this only from a personal perspective. Since I started successfully gaming women and built up a small but regular mini-harem of chicks I bang…I don’t care anymore about whether or not I see them. It’s weird…One drops out, the other pops up…and if I lost those two then I’m still out gaming new ones. But i’m in no rush so I’m now feeling more “natural” and less “on” when I game these women. I’m now focusing only on women I want not any hot bird who I can bang… I figure I can take more time now… Read more »

sgtted
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sgtted
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Actually, MRA’s have a valid beef with the law and their approach is valid within that framework. I predict it will be a success within that framework mainly because the over the top attacks from radicals will legitimize it with non-ideological people, as well as equality is a valid legal concept supported by many laws based on US Constitutional principles. We’re already seeing reverses in skin color based, discriminatory Affirmative Action law that began around 20 years ago. The same will hold true for discriminatory law regarding females, if the MRA’s stick to their guns. The beginning’s of this have… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@sgtted Actually, MRA’s have a valid beef with the law and their approach is valid within that framework… …We’re already seeing reverses in skin color based, discriminatory Affirmative Action law that began around 20 years ago. The same will hold true for discriminatory law regarding females, if the MRA’s stick to their guns… …20 years ago, gay marriage was a crazy idea and today, your considered a bigot if you oppose it. The MRA movement will take 20 years or more to be successful. But it will happen. You have some cause/effect mixing there. MRA’s and especially AVfM are organized… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@sgtted

Fixing No Fault divorce and unequal sentencing in male vs. female cases in court is possible. Fixing the social views of men in a fashion resembling “true equality” as I’ve heard many of them talk about? Rollo has a point there. Not happening.

Razorwire
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Razorwire
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Fearless, F.I. product placement twitter fags is nowhere near as detrimental as the millions and millions of men climbing over each other to put your average bird on a pedestal all day, every day, as one of her facebook “friends”. I don’t play in that swamp, but the other day I got a tutorial from a plate and her FB was full of these little FI-inspired quips, motivational/inspirational fortune cookie philosophy, and men scrambling to be the first responders to celebrate her awareness, strength, beauty. She’s not even an egregious participant but still its there all day, on her phone,… Read more »

LiveFearless
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@The CPT. Thank you! Pander Bears I’m still laughing, I’ll have to use that phrase. Certainly fits the photo on credited to those tweets. It must be absolute misery to sell out like that & write all of that nonsense with full knowledge that it further destroys other people. How do they look themselves in the mirror? Now I remember, most of them stopped going rooms with mirrors in them. It’s great entertainment seeing the out of context lecture in his tweets and in the tweets from his ‘still single and sure the perfect man is coming soon’ disciples. I’ll… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Badpainter I did not intend on striking nerves, it was just open honesty. It’s valuable to consider and remember how subtle female emotional abuse can be. Sons are trained by both parents to not complain. This is the equivalent of teaching a daughter that any sexual abuse by father is normal, and she should just “woman up”. Since sons within a family are in a uniquely vulnerable position of having their complaints or visible signs of emotional trauma disregarded, they can easily become the emotional tampons for the family and as a result erect wall-of-china-sized buffer behaviors and moral justifications… Read more »

BigAl
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BigAl
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Kryptokate said “experience breeds apathy.” from an outcome independence standpoint, do any guys here actually get tired of banging chicks all the time? It starts to lose its fun for me after a while. It makes it even easier to get girls when you already have plenty, but I just get my fill and get bored. Muscle cars can be way more exciting to me than women sometimes. Some of my other player buddies have expressed the same sentiment, so Im curious…

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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@ Walawa; “The abundance mentality comes from achievement…and then not resting on that achievement but becoming more resolute and focused in advancing.” What if we change the word achievement in that sentence to Mastery. The abundance mentality comes from mastery of game. You are good at it. Now I see what M Simon is talking about in Proportional integral derivative loops even though I don’t know anything about embedded electrical engineering. M Simon can design a masterful (well functioning) PID loop. He designs it to be good ahead of the time that it is needed to function. A man good… Read more »

LiveFearless
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@Sam, CPT is on about Sama. Look at his gender demo: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/jamesmsama.com Tell me who his “advice” is for? It would be a compliment to call him Purple Pill, the guys is a Blue Pill apologist for women. @Rollo, thank you for making that clear. Women. Keywords: a good man, a confident man, universal hot crazy matrix, Jennifer Lawrence leaked, women need to Egalitarian equalism – profitable like a religion (auto-spell correct wouldn’t let my type equalism-I think I’ve read that somewhere a few times before) What’s interesting is the comment thread under this post: http://www.examiner.com/article/atheist-lawmaker-opens-arizona-house-with-godless-prayer He’s accused of preaching… Read more »

Lucien
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Lucien
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“I fully agree. However, never forget that the average man is closer to a beast than a philosopher. Having attended law school, you fall in the very far end of the bell curve and so should not assume your emotional experiences are like many others.” That’s true. I have that awkward realization all the time when I comment on posts. But, much worse, I realize it when I am looking for a depth of connection with women that just isn’t there. I should clarify that I wasn’t encouraging everyone who can’t get laid to go out and become a philosopher.… Read more »

Lucien
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Lucien
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Oh, I wanted to add—very important. Regarding “celibacy makes philosophers of men.” Rollo Tomasi has very insightfully observed that men are idealists. This is not just a thing about what they expect from love and romance. This is a deep property of the male psyche. It’s that capacity for high-level abstract thought that makes them the most competent mathematicians, chess players, engineers, and computer scientists. One of the most important experiences I have had is wanting to seek that ideal, wanting a woman to live up to the ideal—and realizing that I was simply chasing a chimera. It wasn’t that… Read more »

447
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447
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@ “Kryptokate said “experience breeds apathy.” from an outcome independence standpoint, do any guys here actually get tired of banging chicks all the time?” Actually (although I would have laughed hard at that notion even three years ago, when I was having my first successes with PUA-trickery) – yes. My notch count is nothing to brag about (lower two digits, and no, not 10 or 11 :-D) – but “it” gets old fast. Part of that is that I have unreasonably high sexual performance expectations of women – once you tasted the cup of true alpha fux reaction, “normal”, run-of-the-mill… Read more »

447
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447
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P.S.: The effect I talk about has nothing to do with physical attractivness – at least for me / in my personal experience.

447
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447
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“I think Roosh’s argument about outcome independence of historical figures is flawed. I just don’t know what the flaw in his argument is yet. Anyone with me on that?” Yes – partly. The flaw is this: Napoleon, Hitler or Djengis Khan would have “gamed” like this: “Bring me this virgin, that hot milf over there and the exotic girl over there in her prime. My tent/bunker/castle at eigth, want to taste the wine/beer/goat-milk first with my comrades/drinking buddys/best warriors.” There would have been no need to add what would have happened in the case of non-compliance. Put Napeleon, Hitler or… Read more »

Badpainter
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Badpainter
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Lucien – “Rollo Tomasi has very insightfully observed that men are idealists. This is not just a thing about what they expect from love and romance. This is a deep property of the male psyche.”

Only God can make a tree, but it takes a man to conceive and execute an 18 hole golf course.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Sun

Yeah, keep in mind, organized, state-married Christianity had financial reasons for keeping male sexuality in check… major financial reasons.

wolf
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wolf
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Can’t stand the thought of a woman not being around you… beta.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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@Kryptokate It’s not just the “losers” in the SMP with sourgrapes. I know a few guys who could *easily* do very well with women, but choose not to make any effort because they truly just don’t care that much. I think you should consider, before you say that, how SMV-ignorant most men are about themselves. Women have some intrinsic understanding of their value, and in many cases an over-inflated estimation of their SMV. Many many men have the exact opposite problem. They have a persistent belief, cultivated by society, that they’re just not worth that much in the SMP. This… Read more »

sjfrellc
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I suppose it looks awkward to me as a fallacy of faulty analogy.

” FAULTY ANALOGY: (can be literal or figurative) assumes that because two things, events, or situations are alike in some known respects, that they are alike in other unknown respects.

example: What’s the big deal about the early pioneers killing a few Indians in order to settle the West? After all, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

example: Banning “head” shops from selling drug paraphernalia in order to curb drug abuse makes about as much sense as banning bikinis to reduce promiscuity.”

LiveFearless
Guest

Those ‘coaches’ are marketing to women. Alexa agrees, well, except it shows no results for Women with Athol Kay. Further, UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine blocked MMSL as an “adult” site.

LiveFearless
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Vulpine
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Vulpine
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@badpainter Jerky. Antelope Jerky. @fhqwhgads (sifrellc) If you type in “outdoorsman”, it will underline it as misspelled. “Outdoors-fag”, “outdoors-vagina”, and “outdoors-fuck” are perfectly acceptable, though. “Misandry” is misspelled, too. But “Nazi” is spelled right, even without proper capitalization: “nazi”. Way to make a masculine type feel welcome, huh? Who wouldn’t be compelled on some level to establish another “way”? As someone mentioned in previous comments, I, too, had to study game (and be accused of being a “natural” several times) in order to come to the understanding that the hitch in my game was not my interaction with women, but… Read more »

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