Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:
It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:
1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.
2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.
Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.
So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?
Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.
That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.
I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.
And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.
So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?
I touched on this in Vulnerability:
The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”
The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.
The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.
In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.
Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.
With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:
1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.
I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.
Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:
III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority
Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.
What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.
There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:
Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.
You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.
The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.
Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.
If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.
The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.
So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?
I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.
With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.
The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.
@Sun Wukong Welcome to the power of Big Data… It’s just disturbing… am I the only one who blocks all cookies, blocks javascript by default, and occasionally uses proxy networks? Or are smart people doing the things I mention, and big-data is now simply categorizing people by their IP? btw, If you’ve never done this, and you want an education on the sites you visit… download noscript or equivalent plug-in for your browser… then visit your normal sites and watch how many domains a single page is loading from. In some cases the number is in the 40s… just stunning.… Read more »
Bottom line of what I’m thinking is “not bidding up” could only happen if the rest of the market worked with you, but if you’ve spent any time in a real or simulated market you realize just how futile that line of thinking is. Instead you have to find an individual strategy within the market, most of the time trying to only outbid the other guy by as little as you can get away with. Consistent winners front run markets by the smallest amount they can get away with. It’s the guys that bid up hard that really break shit;… Read more »
@Jeremy I’ve used NoScript and blocked cookies for several years now, but sadly all it does is lower the accuracy of the data they acquire now. You can never mask your IP with anything short of onion routing that changes your output node on a regular basis, but that’s slow as shit so it often hurts more than it helps. Nobody does it. As a result, they just use your IP to track and share that data for cash. If you are on the internet, you are a product to be sold. Doesn’t matter if you’re an ugly sweater or… Read more »
There’s still other options, but they’re technically illegal so I won’t mention them.
As for sexual markets… I find myself nodding with you Sun and “wanting to believe” in some altered price discovery mechanisms to even things out… but just like in our “Real” economy, we know that’s not going to happen soon.
• sjfrellc
March 2nd, 2015 at 11:51 pm
“Pardon me but why do you ask?”
Because you wrote:
“I’m SJFRELLC and I believe in Red Pill married man game.”
“Fixing the social views of men in a fashion resembling “true equality” as I’ve heard many of them talk about? Rollo has a point there. Not happening.”
Oh, I agree with that. That’s pie in the sky.
Jeremy wrote:
“…Outcome independence should mean something more akin to social exploration and field testing with no preconceptions of the conclusion.”
Yes, giving up on women is based on holding a preconception of the conclusion. A repetitive outcome is largely due to the filters you apply to your sample space – always choose the same types of women and always see the same conclusion.
Oh, that. Never mind. I can’t remember why I posted that.
“But then I look at day game, where you’re catching the “merchants” outside of their normal “auction environment”, they aren’t looking to make a sale, they aren’t even displaying all the merchandise… and to me that says that there’s other ways to utilize game that do not serve the selfish women seeking attention.” Day game is in my opinion much worse. Because day game = life, the whole society. Getting attention when you’re not expecting to is even better than getting hit on in da club. Now we’re talking about dudes eyeing girls, approaching, hitting on them in every fucking… Read more »
“Bottom line of what I’m thinking is “not bidding up” could only happen if the rest of the market worked with you, but if you’ve spent any time in a real or simulated market you realize just how futile that line of thinking is. Instead you have to find an individual strategy within the market, most of the time trying to only outbid the other guy by as little as you can get away with.” Dude. That’s the whole fucking point. Yes, this is a market. Because feminists turned it into a market. A sane society does not operate as… Read more »
@Lucien I would only take this attitude with girls I’m pretty sure are not going to fuck me, which is plenty of them. http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/05/a-league-of-your-own/ Iron Rule of Tomassi #8 Always let a woman figure out why she wont fuck you, never do it for her. Why are you just accepting the definition of this as an every man for himself market? Because the vast majority of men will remain in that mode. Any trying to change that through your own individual actions is pissing in the wind during an F5 tornado. You can try to take the “We’ll all band… Read more »
“There should be disagreement on the idea that attention alone is the only goal the women in the SMP have. There should also be disagreement on the what expectations women have depending on the situation they put themselves in.” You’re right, I don’t attention is the only thing they want. I think they value it in a direct, emotional way, but the logic of it is that it makes them feel desired and valuable, which reassures them that they will one day be able to take an alpha off the market; that they will get an alpha to commit. (Alpha… Read more »
It looks like MGTOW, Men Go their Own Way, is more popular than PUA, Pick Up Artists, and MRA, Men’s Rights Activists, combined.
Trying to figure out the picture for this post… Is it a take on the lady of the lake, an isolated figure, perhaps holding a pen as the pen is mightier than the sword?
Is it supposed to represent the celibate philosopher writing on a self-healing surface that cannot take a mark?
Am I thinking too hard on this?
“I’m not saying I like how things are. I simply see how they are and look for the strategy that works best within that paradigm. Whether I like it or not is immaterial; I am too small to change it and only care what I can get out of it. As soon as banding together with other dudes becomes the most beneficial move for me, I’ll be doing it. For now it’s not.” One of the things that used to make the system work was slut-shaming. Imagine if you were to marry one. Men would ridicule other men for committing… Read more »
@Lucien Who said I’m gonna marry a slut? Who said I even consider marriage to any of the sluts in this country on the table as an option? Not only is the only workable strategy currently individualistic, it’s also to completely refuse the one thing men hold the key to which is commitment. Alphas aren’t going to commit, which leaves women holding out for a Beta. As a group and as individuals, the best strategy for men is to withhold commitment right now. A lot of Betas won’t do that though, taking the worst strategy for the group and the… Read more »
Another thing I don’t understand is, sometimes we’re saying, “well, we gotta chase the pussy! No choice! A man’s gotta eat, doesn’t matter if it’s dumpster scraps!” Then sometimes we’re saying what a man really wants is a romantic long-term relationship, ideally marriage, and his chances of getting that are pretty much absolutely fucked. If the latter is true, then an MGTOW-style approach really makes sense, because the endgame is that what you really want is simply no longer on offer. Trying and pretending it isn’t so will only make it worse—that’s mostly what this blog is about. You will… Read more »
“I said I used the strategy that works right now. I didn’t say I was stupid or a sucker. Don’t try to cast me as one.” Whoah dude! It wasn’t personal at all. I’m not really commenting about you, considering I have no idea who you are. I’m just gaming it out. I think mostly this is just a confirmation of game principles. Basically, don’t do the shit that is stereotyped as beta. Not just because it’s bad for you, but it actually hurts us all. Although some aspects of game also come under fire, like the sheer numbers aspect… Read more »
@Lucien
Your arguments are suspect. Often in modern times living takes far more courage than dying, for instance. You’re speaking in absolutes that aren’t necessarily universal there.
As for the rest I have no idea what your point is.
The main reason I’m interested in this stuff is intellectual. I’m worried that even our community will basically degrade to this level. Actually feminist ideas are already penetrating in as people try to assimilate and seem like good Westerners. I worry that this is the short end of a wedge that will end in the carnal wasteland that most Westerners currently occupy. But I need the ideas and the language to explain this to others in my generation before we all get fucked together.
Jeremy “Is it supposed to represent the celibate philosopher writing on a self-healing surface that cannot take a mark?” A picture says maybe a few words. Simple and Elegant Symbolism. If an isolationist is foolish enough to attempt to make a statement, to write with a ball point on water which can’t take a mark, to be an isolationist and leave their wisdom to society, it won’t work. He can’t make his mark, his statement and it won’t be left behind. The act doesn’t accomplish it’s goal. Isolationists are isolated in their thoughts and their message can’t be recognized by… Read more »
@Lucien
See what I noted earlier in the thread:
Hypergamy doesn’t care about God, and it sure as hell doesn’t care about your piety.
If you’re in the first world, women will act in the interest of their hypergamy. They did so in the church I was a member of without hesitation. Religion is not a shield from hypergamy.
Ouch with the name change. Old McDonald had a farm reference?
You kid.
Lucien – ” I I think they want sex with alphas, and they’ll take anything they can get, but they really want commitment.” Except they only want commitment that obligates them to as litte as possible while raising their status as high as possibe. They accept the best commitment they can get with lowest amount of cost and responibilty. Commitment only flows one way. The benefits of commitment only flow one way. Women don’t make commitments they accept and receive commitment. What might look like returning or reciprocating that commitment is simply a recognition of the external restrictions on her… Read more »
@ lucien – unless you are in the top 5% of highly photogenic dudes, dating sites are the lowest percentage to the bang ratio. Yes, I think women thrive off validation that you want to fuck them, but the problem is that every minute of every hour of every day they have a new cock knocking on the door. Your cock may have been all new and shiny 3 hours ago, but since then, 30 more cocks have penetrated her inbox. And in all fairness, if I had 10 new pussies a day to choose from, I’d be a flake… Read more »
Rollo Tomassi
March 2nd, 2015 at 6:29 pm
Even in my longest stretches of going without for me porn was preferable to a pro. I had two pro experiences. In both I was sorta tricked (heh) into it. Didn’t like it. Avoided it at all costs for ever after.
One other data point: I was a sailor at the time.
Lucien March 4th, 2015 at 12:24 am The military has a very good attitude for very bad situations – “embrace the suck”. ===================== So how did we get here. Alpha – more fucks short life. Beta – fewer fucks longer life And that is what we are designed for. Reproduction. And the most amusing part is that no matter the isolationists, the reproductive imperative is self reproducing and self strengthening. It is what women who reproduce want. MGTOW is a weak position when it comes to the reproductive imperative. I don’t care how well they write or present their position.… Read more »
OT but I couldn’t help myself… http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/03/hilary-duff-divorce-cosmopolitan_n_6792152.html Newly-divorced Hilary Duff isn’t so sure about “forever.” “I don’t want to sound bitter because I’m definitely not, but I don’t know if people are meant to be together forever” Translation: I’m not bitter at all because I dumped him. And I know my g-tingles for new alpha cock simply couldn’t hold-out “forever”. “Things happen over a long relationship that you can’t always fight. A marriage of 20 years, the accomplishment of that must feel really great, but there are also huge sacrifices. I just always want to fight for happiness.” Translation: Hypergamy… Read more »
Basically my conclusion is that I was wasting time by fucking around.
Well I enjoyed it. Greatly. And the best part is that the fm was at one time one of my plates. And she knew it. When she gets too far out of line I remind her that she can be replaced. And even at my age I get the occasional heavy IOIs from 20 somethings. Keeps the fm on her toes.
The real problem here is that men have become increasingly regulated and taxed while women have become less regulated and subsidized. It was the goal of feminism. They have succeeded. It is why there are many alpha widow women and men who are losers with the ladies. If men were freed and women weren’t subsidized, none of this would have happened. We are not going back to fault divorce any time soon. We should make it where the first person to file for divorce loses the right to live in the home and must pay child support be that person… Read more »
Alphas aren’t going to commit Some will – for the sake of the children. But it is not the same as a beta commitment. And it is best if she has slutted it up enough to know that you are the best she can possibly get. Bestitis. There are strategies. The worst is to assume that in the current environment nothing works that even approximates the old ways. That in my experience is a false assumption. So what kept my mother in line? Chicks were ALWAYS hitting on my Dad. I didn’t understand it at the time. Now I do.… Read more »
doclove March 4th, 2015 at 5:48 am I agree with your analysis except for one part – the collapse. I estimate it will be at least 100 years in the future. It all depends on inventing enough efficiency to make up for the inefficiency of socialism. And so far the inventors are staying 1/2 step ahead. At least in the US. So what could actually be done? Maury Povitch is showing the way. Watch his show. I think “no child support from the man without DNA” has popular support. Slut shaming (well at least if she is slutting it up… Read more »
Excellent comments as always. I thank you for the insight, and the hope. My own existential angst gets quenched reading this blog. It makes me feel better than reading Bukowski.
I am grateful to all of you.
I will easily get tangled in words trying to defend or identify with a paradigm, so I will not write much
Again, “Thank you!” Each one of us faced with their own struggle. The words sometimes just help. They make me feel as if I am not alone.
@ “It looks like MGTOW, Men Go their Own Way, is more popular than PUA, Pick Up Artists, and MRA, Men’s Rights Activists, combined.” As long as the (substantially high) number of “unconcious MGOTW” continue to coddle and protect women, help them and give them attention in everyday life – they do even worse damage than failed PU-attempts that inflate HB5-egos. I outlined a simple, easily apllicable line of action for everyday life that does not even provoke any serious punishment for the system (that is: treat all non-fucked females as lesser males you dislike/take adavantge of them and make… Read more »
“So the high end push themselves totally out of the game by refusing to accept any man alive, leaving HG6-9s completely open for all the HB4-7s.” This is the fate of all blue-blood aristocracies and caste systems. Inbreeding and infirmity at best, more often “daughtering-out”, infertility and extinction. And will be the likely general end of these Princess Pickys. Dumped out of posterity on their solitary but unattainable hypergamic arses. The infinitely wily and adaptable English Royals, for instance, have only recently tried to adapt their model in an attempt to avoid this, with varying degrees of success. Diana Spencer… Read more »
Rollo Tomassi tried to offer constructive criticism of MGTOW. He succeeded in my opinion. Women, you can’t live with them and you can’t live without them(because they, the women, won’t let you.) You can come close to living without them though.
Octavian, thank you. GREAT comment. On point. I’m one. Divorced 6 years ago. Have given $300,000 after tax dollars to ex as shadow alimony so far while literally turning down sex from 22 yo hotties on Friday night because going to get my kids for the weekend. Women have NO idea what that’s like. Not one in history has experienced it. Women give NO credit for being a real alpha who supports his kids no matter what in the face of crazy ex. Even if the kids are two future women. In fact it’s the opposite they see it as… Read more »
M Simon
I agree that no man should pay for a child who did not legally adopt or is not biologically his child. The current course we are on will cause a collapse. The question is when, how intense will it be and how long will it last?
447 I agree that any man especially a MGTOW man who helps any woman who has not proven her worth to himself is causing the price of the pussy to go up. Women want attention more than sex. Men want sex more than attention. Denying women attention hurts them more than pump and dump sex from PUAs. At least the PUA gets something in exchange for his effort while the helpful to the ladies MGTOW gets nothing and becomes a White Knight Mangina frustrated chump beta orbiter. The best way most women(there are exceptions to this rule) in this world… Read more »
a day late and a dollar short, that’s me, Jeremy, but just to put you out of your misery …
google image search “written on water” I got it 2nd hit.
Although having had English Culture rammed up my bahookie since the age of four or five, I had an instant flashback to Keats’ epitaph (although I don’t think I was actually beaten to get that one to stick, being too old and large for the teachers by then).
447
March 4th, 2015 at 8:00 am
Not every man is strong enough. In any case I got what I wanted and tamed her. So far. 40 years and counting.
doclove
March 4th, 2015 at 9:37 am
When? Can’t say. Europe will be first. How intense? If we don’t do something really stupid – not very.
Keep in mind that if there is no rampage the production machinery will remain in place. And the correction need not be any harder than, “From now on….”
If we start with “Child support requires DNA” that could start us on the road to a fix.
This current society is VIOLENTLY anti beta man. In various ways society has always been that way. The deal is men are surplus. We have machines that can replace at least 5% for production. That number will be going up. I remember when electronics eqpt. was hand assembled. Connections were individually soldered. Now it is all machines. Cars are like that. Robots are coming. So far women and a few sperm donors are required for children. Betas are surplus. Alpha up. And teach your male offspring game. So if you want a future figure out how to get on a… Read more »
Aw c’mon Tam. Using GIS has to be considered cheating in this gentlemans game.
447
March 4th, 2015 at 8:00 am
I always preferred sluts. A matter of taste. But very well suited to the current environment.
But I’m always happy to see men who can’t stand them. More for me.
M Simon
The correction will happen. No one knows how it will play out not even me. Our government will run out of money to enforce this stupidity of feminism against men as well as other stupid ideas such as socialism. no one can get anything done unless he, she or it pays for it-simple economics. The European Union will probably collapse before the USA. Our ruling elite never want to tie child support to DNA results, and will need to be forced by the populace into doing so which I don’t see coming any time soon.
@doclove
Any “collapse” of society will just look like a slow crumbling just like the last 50 years have as men have slowly become marginalized.
Book 2 update: Approved and awaiting the printed proof copy. Digital ePub formatting in the works, should be good to go by the weekend if all goes well.
As Bruce Lee says…”To be is to be related. To isolate is death.”
Main point here: be real with yourself.
If you’re doing something because it’s what you want to do, that’s one thing. If you’re doing something as a substitute for something else that you’d rather be doing, that’s another thing.
Forget other people. What matters is knowing what you yourself want and don’t want.
If you consider MRA dudes, fighting for men’s rights is not exactly “running with the pack”, is it? I can’t help but to look at the two “camps” as the same camp, but with a subsection of guys with some extra political ambition or sense of civic duty. Essentially, MRA sorts of dudes are “going their own way”, if they weren’t, they’d be PUA’s. So, just as the “Tea Party” is a subsection of the Republicans, MRA is a subsection of the MGTOW party. If it weren’t this way, MRA’s would be status-quo. But, MRA’s are certainly not status-quo, they… Read more »
Bruno Mars – “When I was your man” “It all just sounds like oooooh… Mmm, too young, too dumb to realize That I should’ve bought you flowers And held your hand Should’ve gave you all my hours When I had the chance Take you to every party ‘Cause all you wanted to do was dance Now my baby’s dancing But she’s dancing with another man” LOL, was listening to the radio on the way into work and heard this guy, now what he is saying he would have done sounds massively beta, the fact that she is gone means he… Read more »
Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection? The more I think about this, the more I think it’s like (perhaps even a part of) learned Alpha. At first maybe it is a Buffer, but the more experience, confidence, and mastery you gain, the more it becomes a part of who you are. The more you internalize an abundance mentality, the more OI simply becomes a part of you. It starts as a “fake it ’til you make it” just like self-confidence does.… Read more »
Vulpine nice post. Respect.
@Vulpine I see where you are coming from, you want a complete change and reversal of our current social dynamic and that’s really what every man would wish for but its just not going to happen. We need to just perform the best as possible in our current situation. @Sun Wukong Couldn’t have put it any better: “I’m not saying I like how things are. I simply see how they are and look for the strategy that works best within that paradigm. Whether I like it or not is immaterial; I am too small to change it and only care… Read more »
Simon, wrong, and you failed to consider the rest of my and Octavian’s point. We are discussing no-fault divorced men who are good fathers who provide financially for their kids at an extreme level, against all odds, voluntarily crushing any chance at a sex life, for the good of the children. No, society was not always *this* anti-beta man, because until very recently we had one-woman-one-man policies that encouraged marriage and family, which was a restriction on female hypergamy. Rollo has covered this at length. Please read carefully. The ancients recognized female hypergamy. This is seen both in religious texts… Read more »
http://therationalmale.com/2014/01/14/the-second-set-of-books/
@Rude Awakening *nod* My pleasure. @Bromeo, it’s interesting how you used “complete” and “reversal” there. ____ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuw1AnkufCY&index=43&list=PLFEF6272077972694 Folks, listen specifically from ~1:53 until 4:24. “But this, she thought, was men’s moral code in the outer world.” Where she’s thinking: “here, in this valley”, think more like “here, in the manosphere”, and “men’s moral code in the outer world” becomes relevant. Feel free to turn it off after: “No one’s happiness but my own is in my power to achieve, or destroy.” Seems like one could accuse John Gault of being “isolationist”, except for all that “being out stopping the motor… Read more »
Oh I get it, Rollo. Between a rock and a hard place. I have lost countless women who told me they can’t handle that I can’t be available on weekends. I kind of don’t blame them. I have to have so much game to have a sex life that I have to get women to hook up only on week nights when we both have work the next day. Can’t and don’t try to hide my status–anyone entering my apartment (with a view of the ocean) sees photos of my kids everywhere. And I meant to add, re: the failure… Read more »
Dammit, that didn’t link right at all.
I linked everyone to CD 3, Part 39 of 86
Please hold while I put you through…
Had to chime in again. Nothing more disturbing than my recently divorced male acquaintances. They have been outside of the SMP for 20 years or so… After a quick profile on OKC and POF, they lose their minds. Taken to cleaners by dinner whores, actual whores, flakiness, madness, the HB3 that posts “fake” pictures making her not look like an elephant, the BPD divorcees, the list goes on….They do not ” get it.” They seethe with anger and frustration. They can not believe they can not get laid. They are flabbergasted. It is a mother fucking bitch living under the… Read more »
Ok, this will link right…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuw1AnkufCY&list=PLBCB8A1C4C39EA89C&index=44
Yeah, that looks right… 1:53-4:24
Sorry guys, I should’ve had a V-8.
Alright, nevermind. Last time I bother with any of that noise.
The Red Pill is an ace!
Yossarian, that’s not me, FYI. That was me six years ago when the divorce first happened. Then I discovered CH and Rollo in late 2012 and have learned some game — cocky/funny, confident, I’m the prize, teasing, not kissing their ass, flirting with them in a way that works, following the script that they all respond to like clockwork (e.g., “who’s this?” text), no dinner dates. I have improved my flirting immensely and have gotten into some great situations with HB9s aged anywhere from 22 to 25 to 28 (many of them) and up to 35 (with still hot body),… Read more »
” All women are perpetually glued to their fucking Iphones. It’s a 24/7 validation portal that gives them the perfect ‘out’ so they never have to interact in real life or look men in the eye.”
Actually, some women don’t have smart phones.
That is another screening criterion that may soon no longer exist if they want any kind of cell phone.
@ Divorced Dad I’m a 40 y/o divorced guy and unplugged about the same time as you via Rollo & CH. Fact that your kids are so young I do feel for your situation. It’s gut-wrenching. Kids that young don’t really get whats going on either and mummy can poison their impressionable minds. My kids were around 7 & 11 and were ok about it all; better still my ex left the kids with me full-time up until 6 months ago (oh and I didn’t seek child support all that time). I worked a 50 hour week and still looked… Read more »
@ Divorced Dad
I was only relating stories about people I know. I never meant to insinuate anything about you. I fully understand your plight, and I am glad you are doing well. I have nothing but respect for all of us caught in this struggle.
Yossarian talking about divorced acquaintances’ dating woes: “She looked so cute on POF,… the HB3 that posts “fake” pictures making her not look like an elephant,..” Divorced Dad recites the (in my opinion grossly exaggerated) boilerplate nightmare scenarios found in the ‘sphere.: “and the other 80% of men have barely any sex life or are involuntarily celibate…” How much is this kind of language is used as an excuse for flawed execution and justification for giving up? My opinion is a lot of these failures result from unrealistic expectations of getting hot babes or otherwise setting inappropriate filters on what… Read more »
@Doclove: “Our government will run out of money to enforce this stupidity of feminism against men as well as other stupid ideas such as socialism” European perspective: Sadly, one can’t be sure of that at all. In Europe, making debts has been the longstanding norm for decades now – even though the individual countries are smaller than the US of course, making more and more debts is no problem at all. In Germany, there is even a newspeak-word for that which means (literarlly) “newdebts”. Politicians and all of the so called “critical” media discuss this “newdebt” all the time –… Read more »
@ Jack le Bear “My opinion is a lot of these failures result from unrealistic expectations of getting hot babes or otherwise setting inappropriate filters on what women to approach or eliminate from consideration” ” How much is this kind of language is used as an excuse for flawed execution and justification for giving up?” _______________________________________________________ I agree – this happens a lot. For some reason, the simply “theory” of “fucking up the ladder” is rarly discussed: OF COURSE you only get mediocre or not-so-good women at first. Because the results of game are determined by your game skills. So… Read more »
Actually, it would be pretty strange to go from zero to hero (bang nothing, then suddely supermodels offer themselves to you in public) like in some blue pill-movies. BUT I THOUGHT I WAS A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE! Funny thing is that’s exactly what women have the privilege of going through with almost zero effort required, hence a big part of the reason they never understand the male situation. They will never be able to grasp the work that goes in to becoming a sexually succesful male for that reason alone. The only karma in the situation is that they can’t prevent… Read more »
I agree, Sun Wukong. One reason more to not care.
“I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and… Read more »
@Divorced Dad, What you’ve observed is the r/K selection theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory We’re currently living in an r-selected society and you’re demonstrating K-selected qualities. From wikipedia: “Neither mode of propagation is intrinsically superior, and in fact they can coexist in the same habitat, as in rodents and elephants.” It’s not that they necessarily see the qualities you’re trying to demonstrate as a weakness, they’re just not as important in today’s environment. I can tell you’re dealing with a lot of pain, I have a beautiful little girl from a previous relationship and I respect the effort you put in to raising… Read more »
More thoughts. I encourage all of you to give me pointers and/or criticism. At my age ( early 40’s) I have no hopes of finding an Unicorn. Or the “One.” My possible outcomes are dating multiple partners (I dislike saying spinning plates) or going full MGTOW. I have tried it, but the truth is I wanted the vagina… Now, unless I am MGTOW, I feel that at all times, even with the ladies I’m dating I still have the ” burden to perform.” Even the running of game is tiresome. Even if I internalized and memorized and practiced most of… Read more »
I’ve had a couple friends of mine completely devalue sex in their minds. They have tried to do that while still dating, still clinging to a blue pill based relationship with a girl, etc. To them, their highest solution is having no sexuality at all. They see women as venus fly traps. They continue to get laid — which I’m not getting — but they’re less honest with themselves and their desires/urges than I am. Funnily enough, I’ve brought up some Red Pill tenets with one of them, and they instantly denied it all. Their investment is COMPLETELY in NAWALT.… Read more »
“Hypergamy? Yeah, you could put it in a neat little box and label it and say that it’s an evolved behavior.
Chances are a fuckload higher that it’s simply selfish, self-centered, narcissistic, acting-out bad behavior by a bunch of childish little cunts who’ve never had the belt around the arse from daddy to teach them better. There’s certainly nothing else out there to restrain these little cum-buckets from wrecking things.”
http://blackpoisonsoul.blogspot.com/2015/03/hypergamy-is-label.html
@Stuttie: re: @ Divorced Dad I’m a 40 y/o divorced guy and unplugged about the same time as you via Rollo & CH. Fact that your kids are so young I do feel for your situation. It’s gut-wrenching. Kids that young don’t really get whats going on either and mummy can poison their impressionable minds. My kids were around 7 & 11 and were ok about it all; better still my ex left the kids with me full-time up until 6 months ago (oh and I didn’t seek child support all that time). I worked a 50 hour week and… Read more »
@ Lucien.
Thank you for Post! Top Comments!!!!
@DD — Would it be possible to modify the schedule so that you don’t decrease the number of nights per week but don’t have them all on each and every Friday and Saturday? That’s a pretty awful schedule, and there are other nights which would make it more equitable (that schedule gives your ex a social life and you none … I get the dedication to the kids (I am also divorced and have a kid and know the drill in terms of the prioritization), but building in some flexibility or changing the nights to allow for one social weekend… Read more »
@yossarian Surely you’re too modest. A man of your obvious intellect and erudition must have so much knowledge to impart. What you’ve shared here is fascinating. How does this sexy fucker role go? My question is: how do you maintain a role as the days go by, doesn’t that wear on you? Sometimes I just want to be loved and accepted for who I am but that’s obviously not possible. We’re all actors in someone else’s play. It’s tiresome to be a vehicle for someone else’s goals while they gave away the best parts of themselves to someone else long… Read more »
@DD
are you telling potential dates you can’t make it because of your kids? Don’t, just tell them you are busy, and see the dates/plates when it works for you
@Tony232 Yet I could also argue that such evolved behavior should have been nearly wiped-out evolutionary-wise by the force of 10-15,000 years that we know humanity spent living semi-civilized in villages and towns and cities and the like. Except that argument couldn’t be made. Evolution of a species generally moves at a glacial pace (meaning 10-15,000 years ain’t shit), and institutions like arranged marriage and the past supplication of betas by allowing them to at least get and keep a woman (regardless of her qualities) meant none of the problem qualities were being bred out. There was no way to… Read more »
@ Sun Wukong What kept hypergamy under control was the real threat of violence or death by starvation when a woman was found in violation of the provisions and protection for sex agreement that made civilization well civil. It’s only been in last 100 years that basic survival is not the first priority of the first world and only the last 40 years or so that the rest of world has either caught up or advanced sufficiently to realistically aspire to that. A society that allows a beta to cast aside his wife for adultery without material obligation to her… Read more »
@ Calvino
Thank you for the reply.
It is the internet, so this “sexy fucker” maintains a Henry Miller approach. If you know what I mean…and I’m sure you do.
What kept hypergamy under control was the real threat of violence or death by starvation when a woman was found in violation of the provisions and protection for sex agreement that made civilization well civil. It was as much of an agreement among the men as it was anything else. Women were not really in a position to talk terms for almost all of history, being subject to their fathers prior to marriage. The monogamy paradigm was a “deal” among men to share the women out to a broader group of men in exchange for their buy-in, support and work… Read more »
I always feel like an animal who escaped his cage when we talk about these societal and cultural changes. I just stand and watch everyone stuck in the cage, wallowing in their own shit
Sometimes it is Game that leads you to isolation. After all, when you get to the point of depedestalizing women completely, what’s the point of gaming women and not just calling a hooker? It saves time and everyone knows that time is money. When you get to the poing of don’t needing nothing to prove to anyone or to yourself, and you know you are capable of banging an average-good looking girl from time to time.. a girl which very often you despise for what she is… as hypergamous as every other girl in the world…why should you game another… Read more »
Why stop there? Would it not be more practical to simply avoid the cost and avoid any legal entanglements of prostitutes and just jerk off to porn?
Shouldn’t porn be preferable to hookers?
@bp What kept hypergamy under control My point wasn’t if hypergamy was kept under control or not. It absolutely was in early civilized society which is what allowed betas to have wives. It’s whether it was being bred out. It wasn’t. Just because society was suppressing those evolved behaviors doesn’t mean it was breeding them out. In fact, simply suppressing them just papers over them. If you wanted to eliminate evolved hypergamous behavior in women, you’d have to engage in society-wide eugenics and breeding. I find the idea morally reprehensible, but I know it’s the only way to remove it… Read more »
“Why stop there? Would it not be more practical to simply avoid the cost and avoid any legal entanglements of prostitutes and just jerk off to porn? Shouldn’t porn be preferable to hookers?” Prostitution is not forbidden in my country (I am from Spain). On the other hand (literally), masturbation does not feel the same as real sex. So, leaving romantic prospects aside, and the need of aceptance from others too, the most practical option is going for a hooker. I keep gaming, and don’t pay for sex usually, but honestly, I think it is because the inner beta keeps… Read more »
Why do you suppose that is?
lol @ Rollo 😉
I believe the root of all evil is coeducation (OK, exaggerating a bit here). Blue pill indoctrination is not mere indoctrination through media and ideology. It’s also lived out in the form of coeducation. Coeducation trains boys to think that women are not just their equals, but their equivalents—one substitutable for another. When I was young this was my exact instinct. I wanted to treat girls and relate to them the exact same way I did with my fellow boys. It was the way institutions treated us that encouraged me in this. The root of all beta behavior is “mixed… Read more »
@Lucien:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/05/06/intersexual-hierarchies-part-i/
http://therationalmale.com/2014/12/05/teach-your-children-well/
MGTOW plus avoiding women absolutely is too much for me. But in general the idea of MGTOW is very logical to me, especially in our times today! Generally spoken, i think its very important that men play with their rules…not with the rules of women. And to be honest, PUA might be interesting to play from time to time. But in my opinion PUA is nothing else than playing with rules of the women. And when i read here, how some men spend so much energy and dedication to do that PUA-thing……. Thats really crazy!! Think about where they would… Read more »
@ChocDoc: thanks! I couldn’t agree more with Vulpine. Although honestly I think it might require even less magnanimity on the part of a playa. The damage is wrought not by dudes who are actually chasing and getting laid, since the fact that you pulled it off (if you did) means that you were playing within your reach. Sure, you win some you lose some, but that’s not going to do social damage. The problem is the hundreds of thousands of ego strokes some dudes are giving away for free by giving attention in return for…nothing. In other words it’s all… Read more »
On “the patriarchy hurts men too”: “This social convention is really a form of marketeering; selling a solution to a problem it created itself.” This gets to the utter perversity, the fucking chutzpah, of feminism in its current state. Doubling down, giving even more fucked up answers to the first generation of problems themselves wrought by a prior round of feminism. One of the things that I’ve noticed that almost kind of hurts me because it’s so sad is, every time I bring up lifting weights with male friends, they can’t talk about it with a straight face. They have… Read more »
@Lucien DON’T BID UP THE PRICE OF PUSSY! My experience with markets leads me to be absolutely sure there’s no way to completely avoid this short of MGTOW. If you feel this should be a hard and fast rule, GYOW now. Minimize how much you bid it up. Get good at recognizing bidding wars and getting out of the bad ones as fast as possible. Maintain as much OI as reasonably possible. But realize that in the end that if you participate in the SMP, you will wind up bidding the pussy up. It’s just a matter of how shrewd… Read more »
There is evidence that the problem is getting worse over time, even demonstrably worse year by year. There was an article in the NYTimes about Tinder and related apps, suggesting that the introduction of these kinds of apps are rendering women flakier, flightier, and more entitled with every passing year. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/nyregion/on-tinder-taking-a-swipe-at-love-or-sex-or-something-in-new-york.html?_r=0 “Except for ordering their drinks, none of the people I was with that night spoke to any other actual human beings. Their erotic energy was focused on the touchscreens of their smartphones. Each of them had six or seven Tinder chats going simultaneously.” The article is filled with so… Read more »
A real man should always act reasonable…especially when dealing with modern women. She always needs to feel and to know, that you are independent from her. For everything 3 good things she does to you, you do 1 good thing to her in return. I have read that kind of mindgames in here and it really works. I dont go out just for the sake of talking to women. If you not an alien look alike type of man, it will happen automatically that you come in a conversation with a woman. All you need then is just good eye… Read more »
@rollo
On the other hand (literally), masturbation does not feel the same as real sex.
Why do you suppose that is?
Because your hand can’t submit to you while simultaneously letting you fuck it?
Ahem, what I mean is, why isn’t masturbation preferable to banging a hooker if getting off is reduced to practicality and economy?
If time is money and you can invest more of that time in yourself rather than dealing with women or buying a pro, it seems to me that jerking off is the pragmatic choice, right?