The Isolationists


Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:

It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.

Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.

That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.

I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.

So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

I touched on this in Vulnerability:

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.

Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.

With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.

Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.

There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.

The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.

The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.

With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

413 comments on “The Isolationists

  1. @Sun Wukong

    Welcome to the power of Big Data…

    It’s just disturbing… am I the only one who blocks all cookies, blocks javascript by default, and occasionally uses proxy networks? Or are smart people doing the things I mention, and big-data is now simply categorizing people by their IP?

    btw, If you’ve never done this, and you want an education on the sites you visit… download noscript or equivalent plug-in for your browser… then visit your normal sites and watch how many domains a single page is loading from. In some cases the number is in the 40s… just stunning.

  2. Bottom line of what I’m thinking is “not bidding up” could only happen if the rest of the market worked with you, but if you’ve spent any time in a real or simulated market you realize just how futile that line of thinking is. Instead you have to find an individual strategy within the market, most of the time trying to only outbid the other guy by as little as you can get away with.

    Consistent winners front run markets by the smallest amount they can get away with. It’s the guys that bid up hard that really break shit; you just avoid bidding wars with those dipshits and move on to another bid.

  3. @Jeremy

    I’ve used NoScript and blocked cookies for several years now, but sadly all it does is lower the accuracy of the data they acquire now. You can never mask your IP with anything short of onion routing that changes your output node on a regular basis, but that’s slow as shit so it often hurts more than it helps. Nobody does it. As a result, they just use your IP to track and share that data for cash.

    If you are on the internet, you are a product to be sold. Doesn’t matter if you’re an ugly sweater or a human being. Somebody’s gonna make money off you.

  4. There’s still other options, but they’re technically illegal so I won’t mention them.

    As for sexual markets… I find myself nodding with you Sun and “wanting to believe” in some altered price discovery mechanisms to even things out… but just like in our “Real” economy, we know that’s not going to happen soon.

  5. • sjfrellc
    March 2nd, 2015 at 11:51 pm
    “Pardon me but why do you ask?”

    Because you wrote:

    “I’m SJFRELLC and I believe in Red Pill married man game.”

  6. “Fixing the social views of men in a fashion resembling “true equality” as I’ve heard many of them talk about? Rollo has a point there. Not happening.”

    Oh, I agree with that. That’s pie in the sky.

  7. Jeremy wrote:

    “…Outcome independence should mean something more akin to social exploration and field testing with no preconceptions of the conclusion.”

    Yes, giving up on women is based on holding a preconception of the conclusion. A repetitive outcome is largely due to the filters you apply to your sample space – always choose the same types of women and always see the same conclusion.

  8. “But then I look at day game, where you’re catching the “merchants” outside of their normal “auction environment”, they aren’t looking to make a sale, they aren’t even displaying all the merchandise… and to me that says that there’s other ways to utilize game that do not serve the selfish women seeking attention.”

    Day game is in my opinion much worse. Because day game = life, the whole society. Getting attention when you’re not expecting to is even better than getting hit on in da club. Now we’re talking about dudes eyeing girls, approaching, hitting on them in every fucking setting. I’m talking about even just how you interact with girls walking by them on the street. I see entitled cunts walking down the street screwing around with their smartphones, walking right into me. They assume I will get out of the way. Why? Probably because other dudes do. But there is no rational reason to do so. That chick is going to be sprawled out on the pavement.

    I was just at the gym. I’m lifting heavy, trying to focus. Some chick walks in wearing a hot pink skirt and starts squatting in it, directly in my line of sight. I could think, “maybe I can day game this!” and find some way of approaching her. Now here she is, squatting in her little pink skirt in a room filled with about 95% jacked men. Not only are they looking at her, they’re walking over, smiling at her, maybe trying to make conversation, helping her with shit for no reason. Maybe there’s a 5% chance that one of them gets anything out of this. But there is a 100% chance that girl is going home proud of her fucking behavior. She’s probably going to go home and have a gang rape fantasy, certain that she will get some alpha to commit to her in like 10 years.

    My reaction is: what the fuck is this bitch doing in the weight room? Why is she here to fuck with my concentration? And why are other chicks taking up space here, when there could be men who can actually do something with these goddamn weights using them?

    You rub shoulders with girls in every area of life, and you are constantly rewarding them – with desire, attention, smiles, and generally putting up with shit on the off chance you might get laid. The important thing is this: you’re not going to get laid. Maybe here and there. But one thing I keep hearing from people is that the effort is not worth it. I feel like Roosh V is complaining about that all the time. But as more dudes go out doing hundreds of approaches and shit, its going to get even harder and harder, because these bitches have hundreds of dudes hitting on them making them think – shit, I should hold out for someone even more alpha than I was thinking; someone even higher status.

    What I’m saying is not incompatible with game. I would only take this attitude with girls I’m pretty sure are not going to fuck me, which is plenty of them. There is literally no one in society whose interests are more contrary to mine than those girls. They have absolutely no value to me and suck up massive social resources. The problem is hope springs eternal. The aspect of game I don’t like is encouraging men to think the sky is the limit. One of the most confusing things for me was that girls are dressing and acting like sluts not really because they want sex, but because they want reaffirmation of their value. People sometimes say that there are girls who “use sex for validation.” Others have said that what turns women on is “feeling desired.” That’s what that means. These things satisfy her deepest anxiety, which is whether she is good enough to get some alpha to commit.

  9. “Bottom line of what I’m thinking is “not bidding up” could only happen if the rest of the market worked with you, but if you’ve spent any time in a real or simulated market you realize just how futile that line of thinking is. Instead you have to find an individual strategy within the market, most of the time trying to only outbid the other guy by as little as you can get away with.”

    Dude. That’s the whole fucking point. Yes, this is a market. Because feminists turned it into a market. A sane society does not operate as a free market for sex. It regulates the market. It sets price controls. This is the entirety of human history. Arranged marriages. Arranged marriage means that we do not let a woman’s vagina decide the fate of society. We do not let her choose what feels right. The previous generation decides who is a worthy man and who is not, who is an appropriate mate and who is not, and she accepts that verdict. My point here is that the idea of turning social relations themselves into a market phenomenon is recent, radical, and a satanic melange of consumer capitalism and feminism (which is really just a handmaiden to consumer capitalism).

    My whole point is, yes, you are in a market and you are treating it as such—you’re basically like the American worker. Mid-century we used to have the biggest steel industry in the world. A quarter of all workers were unionized. Imagine that. That was a good life for the average man. Now you have service sector wage slave humiliation, no security, no schedules, no benefits. Welcome to deregulation. Too weak, too stupid, or both to organize and act collectively.

    Except we’re not facing off against powerful corporations. We’re facing off against girls. Come on, let’s get our shit together here. Talk about frame control. Why are you just accepting the definition of this as an every man for himself market?

    Jack Donovan has this right. Men do not come naturally as atomized individuals. They come in groups. They come in gangs. A single man is a fucking nonentity. Radical individualism is good for feminism and it’s good for consumer capitalism. Gangs of men are the worst nightmare of both.

  10. @Lucien

    I would only take this attitude with girls I’m pretty sure are not going to fuck me, which is plenty of them.

    Iron Rule of Tomassi #8

    Always let a woman figure out why she wont fuck you, never do it for her.

    Why are you just accepting the definition of this as an every man for himself market?

    Because the vast majority of men will remain in that mode. Any trying to change that through your own individual actions is pissing in the wind during an F5 tornado. You can try to take the “We’ll all band together and fix this” route, but it won’t work because some guy using an individualistic strategy in this environment will swoop in and steal from the group.

    I’m not saying I like how things are. I simply see how they are and look for the strategy that works best within that paradigm. Whether I like it or not is immaterial; I am too small to change it and only care what I can get out of it. As soon as banding together with other dudes becomes the most beneficial move for me, I’ll be doing it. For now it’s not.

  11. “There should be disagreement on the idea that attention alone is the only goal the women in the SMP have. There should also be disagreement on the what expectations women have depending on the situation they put themselves in.”

    You’re right, I don’t attention is the only thing they want. I think they value it in a direct, emotional way, but the logic of it is that it makes them feel desired and valuable, which reassures them that they will one day be able to take an alpha off the market; that they will get an alpha to commit. (Alpha here basically just means any man who she considers higher status than herself—anyone who satisfies her hypergamous impulses).

    One important takeaway, though, is that they do not—I don’t think—want casual sex. I think they want sex with alphas, and they’ll take anything they can get, but they really want commitment. That’s why they are inevitably under the delusion, which seems like sheer irrationality from the outside, that when they fuck an alpha they are on some sort of road to commitment. They have no choice, because that is as close as they are getting to what they really want.

    My conclusion about this is based on the phenomenon that drove me back to the manosphere. I keep having girls show interest, including girls cold approaching me. I mean even like messaging me cold on online dating sites. And then they flake. Why? This doesn’t seem to make any fucking sense. If you aren’t interested in me, then why would you waste your time approaching in the first place? If you are, then why wouldn’t you bother going as far as a first date? Is that too much of a fucking investment at this point?

    Anyway I’ve observed this a lot and my conclusion is that they lose interest because they already have what they want – a confirmation that I desired them enough to pursue them. They don’t actually want to go all the way; they just wanted to know that I would. They just wanted to measure their value against me. They want eventually to settle down with an alpha but there’s like nearly a decade of soon-to-be-wasted graduate degrees and professional careers between her and that point.

    So this is just a more elaborate version of “attention.” Anyway female vanity is a much storied subject. How about that poor Christian blogger who literally had to take her site down because so many bitches stormed her shit for deciding she was no longer going to wear ass-tight leggings? Just look at the fucking fury this woman incited by declaring her own personal decision that it would be inappropriate for her. Created such a shitstorm she ended up doing interviews with several news networks.

  12. It looks like MGTOW, Men Go their Own Way, is more popular than PUA, Pick Up Artists, and MRA, Men’s Rights Activists, combined.

  13. Trying to figure out the picture for this post… Is it a take on the lady of the lake, an isolated figure, perhaps holding a pen as the pen is mightier than the sword?

    Is it supposed to represent the celibate philosopher writing on a self-healing surface that cannot take a mark?

    Am I thinking too hard on this?

  14. “I’m not saying I like how things are. I simply see how they are and look for the strategy that works best within that paradigm. Whether I like it or not is immaterial; I am too small to change it and only care what I can get out of it. As soon as banding together with other dudes becomes the most beneficial move for me, I’ll be doing it. For now it’s not.”

    One of the things that used to make the system work was slut-shaming. Imagine if you were to marry one. Men would ridicule other men for committing to a slut. Now, thanks to the wonders of acceptance, we are all ignorant. Who is a slut? Everyone dresses and acts like one, so they’re all covered. They have circled the herd around their own. The poor man who does commit to a slut might find out sooner and later. But he has the incentive to hide his shame rather than reveal it to the world. So it is not impossible to find out who is a slut; but it is impossible to shame a man for committing to one. That man will never be subject to the deterrent effect of the ridicule of other men. That is how they have atomized you and broken you apart, leaving you helpless in your own defense.

  15. @Lucien

    Who said I’m gonna marry a slut? Who said I even consider marriage to any of the sluts in this country on the table as an option? Not only is the only workable strategy currently individualistic, it’s also to completely refuse the one thing men hold the key to which is commitment. Alphas aren’t going to commit, which leaves women holding out for a Beta. As a group and as individuals, the best strategy for men is to withhold commitment right now. A lot of Betas won’t do that though, taking the worst strategy for the group and the individual. Their loss.

    I’ve said this repeatedly and it bears repeating: in all likelihood if I have any children their mother will not speak english as her first language.

    I said I used the strategy that works right now. I didn’t say I was stupid or a sucker. Don’t try to cast me as one. I don’t pick fights I can’t win, and trying to change the America that feminism has created is one fight I’m not bothering with. There is no hope of our generation seeing a change to what we thought we were going to get. Zip. Zilch. Zero. A couple generations from now maybe guys will have it. But for now? Hell no.

    You might feel helpless since your goal sounds like it’s to change a reality you simply can’t change. I don’t feel helpless since my goal is to find a place that I can make myself happy in reality as it stands. I think that’s an achievable goal for any man that can see reality for what it actually is.

  16. Another thing I don’t understand is, sometimes we’re saying, “well, we gotta chase the pussy! No choice! A man’s gotta eat, doesn’t matter if it’s dumpster scraps!” Then sometimes we’re saying what a man really wants is a romantic long-term relationship, ideally marriage, and his chances of getting that are pretty much absolutely fucked. If the latter is true, then an MGTOW-style approach really makes sense, because the endgame is that what you really want is simply no longer on offer. Trying and pretending it isn’t so will only make it worse—that’s mostly what this blog is about. You will end up a beta chump in a marriage with an alpha widow, sexless, loveless, and frivorced. Here, casual sex is at best a consolation prize. It’s still open to you to decide it’s not good enough.

    Look, let me make an analogy. Courage. At the limit, at its most pure, it is a willingness to die. In fact courage and dignity are closely related. Having dignity means that there are some things you would rather die than not do. Hegel wrote about the master slave dialectic. In the primitive fight to the death, one man was willing to die. The other was not, and became a slave to spare himself. Any freedom from slavery is premised on a willingness to die. To live free or die. If men were not willing to die for something they considered more important than themselves, there would not have been a single war in human history.

    Does courage mean that one literally does not fear death? No, of course you’re afraid to die. Of course you don’t want to die! But you risk your life anyway. Because you have decided to subordinate your fear to something more important.

    Hence dignity. Yes, you want pussy. Of course you do. That’s not going to change. But if you believe that nothing is more important than gratifying that desire, and subordinate everything else to it, then you are on the wrong side of the master slave dialectic. That’s what’s going on with this outcome independence shit. You want it. She knows you want it. Yet she did something that turned you off. Take that Roosh V post. She admitted to fucking a gay guy. There was clearly a kind of moral disgust there. Let’s just generalize. Let’s say this bitch is the embodiment of all the values you despise. Let’s say you just cut loose. She is surprised, pissed even. You just broke her sense of entitlement. You are supposed to be the reliable entertainer. Are you pretending not to want the pussy? No, you still want it. But there are some things you are not willing to do. You are defiant. She still wants to play games with you. And you still want to fuck her. But you are kicking her ass to the curb nonetheless.

    If you want to be more than a woman’s plaything, you have to have a credible threat. You have to be willing to cut her loose. Not just after sex, but before. You can’t just pretend that you are, so that you seem outcome independent, thus ensuring that you bag the pussy. No. You might bag the pussy, or you might not. But you’re out with your dignity intact no matter what.

  17. “I said I used the strategy that works right now. I didn’t say I was stupid or a sucker. Don’t try to cast me as one.”

    Whoah dude! It wasn’t personal at all. I’m not really commenting about you, considering I have no idea who you are. I’m just gaming it out. I think mostly this is just a confirmation of game principles. Basically, don’t do the shit that is stereotyped as beta. Not just because it’s bad for you, but it actually hurts us all. Although some aspects of game also come under fire, like the sheer numbers aspect of it.

    But since you bring it up, about me being helpless and trying to change everything—personally I have a different situation as I belong to a religious community where the old rules are basically still in place. But I’ve fucked with the mainstream market, usually just out of sheer temptation. For me the manosphere is like—yeah, don’t waste time with that shit, and be extremely grateful for the little island that you have. In a way I have the best of both worlds. The casual side hasn’t worked out great lately, but that just convinces me more that I must stick to my community, and that I’m being stupid and hypocritical by even screwing around with anything else. Basically my conclusion is that I was wasting time by fucking around, and now I’m wasting even more time by reflecting on the experience when I will probably be just fine if I suck it up, focus on my work and wait until marriage.

  18. @Lucien

    Your arguments are suspect. Often in modern times living takes far more courage than dying, for instance. You’re speaking in absolutes that aren’t necessarily universal there.

    As for the rest I have no idea what your point is.

  19. The main reason I’m interested in this stuff is intellectual. I’m worried that even our community will basically degrade to this level. Actually feminist ideas are already penetrating in as people try to assimilate and seem like good Westerners. I worry that this is the short end of a wedge that will end in the carnal wasteland that most Westerners currently occupy. But I need the ideas and the language to explain this to others in my generation before we all get fucked together.

  20. Jeremy “Is it supposed to represent the celibate philosopher writing on a self-healing surface that cannot take a mark?”

    A picture says maybe a few words. Simple and Elegant Symbolism.

    If an isolationist is foolish enough to attempt to make a statement, to write with a ball point on water which can’t take a mark, to be an isolationist and leave their wisdom to society, it won’t work. He can’t make his mark, his statement and it won’t be left behind. The act doesn’t accomplish it’s goal.
    Isolationists are isolated in their thoughts and their message can’t be recognized by others. They attempt to make a statement that isn’t necessarily picked up by others. (Unless they blog and campaign for it.)

    Rollo’s way of saying go away and stop trying to blog to the Manosphere, your attempt at writing doesn’t work? If you are trying to write on water is that helping the cause of the Masculine Imperative?

  21. @Lucien

    See what I noted earlier in the thread:

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about God, and it sure as hell doesn’t care about your piety.

    If you’re in the first world, women will act in the interest of their hypergamy. They did so in the church I was a member of without hesitation. Religion is not a shield from hypergamy.

  22. Lucien – ” I I think they want sex with alphas, and they’ll take anything they can get, but they really want commitment.”

    Except they only want commitment that obligates them to as litte as possible while raising their status as high as possibe. They accept the best commitment they can get with lowest amount of cost and responibilty. Commitment only flows one way. The benefits of commitment only flow one way. Women don’t make commitments they accept and receive commitment.

    What might look like returning or reciprocating that commitment is simply a recognition of the external restrictions on her available choices. What looks like a contributing role is an acknowledgement that her choices have been reduced in number, and that the costs of the remaining choices are greater than the current situation.

    Commitment is a gift from the man, a gift of sacrifice. Women simply receive these gifts and either keep them or toss them aside on a whim. They do this because they know other men will along with new gifts.

  23. @ lucien –

    unless you are in the top 5% of highly photogenic dudes, dating sites are the lowest percentage to the bang ratio. Yes, I think women thrive off validation that you want to fuck them, but the problem is that every minute of every hour of every day they have a new cock knocking on the door. Your cock may have been all new and shiny 3 hours ago, but since then, 30 more cocks have penetrated her inbox. And in all fairness, if I had 10 new pussies a day to choose from, I’d be a flake too. All women are perpetually glued to their fucking Iphones. It’s a 24/7 validation portal that gives them the perfect ‘out’ so they never have to interact in real life or look men in the eye.

    @ vulpine –

    I like your viewpoint of mgtow; it’s not a stereotypical bitter and twisted / take my bat and go home / I hate women viewpoint. When I first stumbled on mgtow I found it really interesting and read till my eyes bled, almost with the same thirst for knowledge as finding RT and CH. But the whole, going off the grid Grizzly Adams style didn’t seem right for me. I like many other guys here are late 30’s, 40’s & 50’s were sold the BP marriage/kids thing and ended up divorced. That makes it very hard to go off the grid (as much as I would like to) and rebuild from a RP perspective. Unfortunately, if I want to see my kids with any regularity (which I obviously do) I’m still a slave trapped in the corporate urban matrix.

    I have though, found a better RP existence in that whilst I can’t escape the corporate urban matrix (just yet) – I can learn to control and predict it in my favor. Even laugh at it sometimes in its absurdity and predictability.

    I live alone & live frugal. I train alone. I stay off social media, MSM and dating sites. I have a some cool projects & goals I’m working on. I look after myself better. I have a good job, but I’m always keeping my eyes and options open. I Game women when I feel like it and at the moment have two in the kitty and enjoy the abundance mentality that goes with that.

    My takeaway is, mgtow is a mindset not a location or lifestyle.

    In any case, I’m giving less and less of a fuck what anyone, let alone what any women thinks about my individual pursuits.

  24. Rollo Tomassi
    March 2nd, 2015 at 6:29 pm

    Even in my longest stretches of going without for me porn was preferable to a pro. I had two pro experiences. In both I was sorta tricked (heh) into it. Didn’t like it. Avoided it at all costs for ever after.

    One other data point: I was a sailor at the time.

  25. Lucien
    March 4th, 2015 at 12:24 am

    The military has a very good attitude for very bad situations – “embrace the suck”.


    So how did we get here.

    Alpha – more fucks short life.
    Beta – fewer fucks longer life

    And that is what we are designed for. Reproduction. And the most amusing part is that no matter the isolationists, the reproductive imperative is self reproducing and self strengthening. It is what women who reproduce want.

    MGTOW is a weak position when it comes to the reproductive imperative. I don’t care how well they write or present their position.

    “It so is unfair. Wahhhhhhhh. Only a dolt would put up with it.” Very logical. The logical will not be well represented in the next generation.

  26. OT but I couldn’t help myself…

    Newly-divorced Hilary Duff isn’t so sure about “forever.”

    “I don’t want to sound bitter because I’m definitely not, but I don’t know if people are meant to be together forever”

    Translation: I’m not bitter at all because I dumped him. And I know my g-tingles for new alpha cock simply couldn’t hold-out “forever”.

    “Things happen over a long relationship that you can’t always fight. A marriage of 20 years, the accomplishment of that must feel really great, but there are also huge sacrifices. I just always want to fight for happiness.”

    Translation: Hypergamy happens over a LTR. If you last a 20 year marriage you must be either fucking someone else on the side because there are huge cocks I sacrificed. I just always want to fight for new cock.

    “Mike and I were very in love when we met,”

    Translation: Mike, and I (in that moment) were very in love when we first met – but then he became so beta I couldn’t fuck him any longer.

    “We both really wanted to get married. I’d been working since the age of 11 or 12, so making that choice at a young age seemed right for me. Maybe it wasn’t, but we spent the majority of our time together really happy. It wasn’t working well enough to stay together, but there was still a lot of love involved. It was just a slow set-in of us not being the match that we used to be. I’m lucky for the person he is and I am and how we decided to handle this.”

    Translation: I thought he was alpha. But like a new toy, I got bored very quickly because I had so much other cock to choose from. He was too beta for me to stay but I didn’t love him like that anymore. The beta just crept in and once it did, I checked out.
    I’m lucky for the beta he is and I’m such a great person that I’ve decided to “handle this” by slutting it up in a chick mag to celebrating my open hypergamy with the world. Cum get me boys.

  27. Basically my conclusion is that I was wasting time by fucking around.

    Well I enjoyed it. Greatly. And the best part is that the fm was at one time one of my plates. And she knew it. When she gets too far out of line I remind her that she can be replaced. And even at my age I get the occasional heavy IOIs from 20 somethings. Keeps the fm on her toes.

  28. The real problem here is that men have become increasingly regulated and taxed while women have become less regulated and subsidized. It was the goal of feminism. They have succeeded. It is why there are many alpha widow women and men who are losers with the ladies. If men were freed and women weren’t subsidized, none of this would have happened. We are not going back to fault divorce any time soon. We should make it where the first person to file for divorce loses the right to live in the home and must pay child support be that person man or woman. Prostitution should be decriminalized and lightly and sensibly regulated and taxed as well as legalized. No one should be able to collect welfare payments for the children in food stamps, section 8 housing etc. unless they are genuinely unable to work or they have been widowed. Single mothers would be told from now on you are on your own. We all know that won’t happen until the system collapses because it can’t pay for it. it will eventually happen. We also know that the tax payer is being forced to pay for baby momma dramas and their spawn of alpha cads. Socialism is great until you run out of other people’s money as for British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher once said. That is starting to happen. Feminism won’t survive government inability to coerce people into doing things they don’t want to do and massive wealth transfers from men to women. This will happen, but when is the question. The problem is not too much freedom, but too little especially for men.

  29. Alphas aren’t going to commit

    Some will – for the sake of the children. But it is not the same as a beta commitment. And it is best if she has slutted it up enough to know that you are the best she can possibly get. Bestitis.

    There are strategies.

    The worst is to assume that in the current environment nothing works that even approximates the old ways. That in my experience is a false assumption.

    So what kept my mother in line? Chicks were ALWAYS hitting on my Dad. I didn’t understand it at the time. Now I do. Dread works. Dad was always reminding her in various ways of all the chicks he did before he “settled down”. He wanted a family.

    I did even better. I introduced the fm to several of my previous lays. I always liked remaining cordial with previous GFs.

  30. doclove
    March 4th, 2015 at 5:48 am

    I agree with your analysis except for one part – the collapse. I estimate it will be at least 100 years in the future. It all depends on inventing enough efficiency to make up for the inefficiency of socialism. And so far the inventors are staying 1/2 step ahead. At least in the US.

    So what could actually be done? Maury Povitch is showing the way. Watch his show. I think “no child support from the man without DNA” has popular support. Slut shaming (well at least if she is slutting it up after marriage). You just have to turn it into a political movement.

  31. Excellent comments as always. I thank you for the insight, and the hope. My own existential angst gets quenched reading this blog. It makes me feel better than reading Bukowski.
    I am grateful to all of you.

    I will easily get tangled in words trying to defend or identify with a paradigm, so I will not write much

    Again, “Thank you!” Each one of us faced with their own struggle. The words sometimes just help. They make me feel as if I am not alone.

  32. @ “It looks like MGTOW, Men Go their Own Way, is more popular than PUA, Pick Up Artists, and MRA, Men’s Rights Activists, combined.”

    As long as the (substantially high) number of “unconcious MGOTW” continue to coddle and protect women, help them and give them attention in everyday life – they do even worse damage than failed PU-attempts that inflate HB5-egos.

    I outlined a simple, easily apllicable line of action for everyday life that does not even provoke any serious punishment for the system (that is: treat all non-fucked females as lesser males you dislike/take adavantge of them and make fun of them, never support them, reduce their chances in work life & elswhere but never say/state anything about it).

    Several hundred words later – many contributers talking about highly abstract stuff, the first mates get thrown araound an marrying a slut is just dandy fine if she “got it out of her system”.

    Ok…no more questions asked.
    Just this: What you subsidize, you get more of.

    No matter to what verbal sommersaults we go – as long as supposed red pillers continue to deal with un-fucked females as if they deserve the same treatment as loyal men of your family/clan/conviction – nothing will change at all.

  33. “So the high end push themselves totally out of the game by refusing to accept any man alive, leaving HG6-9s completely open for all the HB4-7s.”
    This is the fate of all blue-blood aristocracies and caste systems.
    Inbreeding and infirmity at best, more often “daughtering-out”, infertility and extinction.
    And will be the likely general end of these Princess Pickys. Dumped out of posterity on their solitary but unattainable hypergamic arses.

    The infinitely wily and adaptable English Royals, for instance,
    have only recently tried to adapt their model in an attempt to avoid this, with varying degrees of success. Diana Spencer was not quite a commoner, and therefore nearly fitted the Old Rules, but that did not end well due to her being as mad as a box of frogs, whereas the far more equable and personable Princess Kate is indistinguishable from a cheery rural barmaid.
    May work well for them, but does fatally undermine the hereditary principle that alone makes them “special”. A puzzle for the future …

  34. Rollo Tomassi tried to offer constructive criticism of MGTOW. He succeeded in my opinion. Women, you can’t live with them and you can’t live without them(because they, the women, won’t let you.) You can come close to living without them though.

  35. Octavian, thank you. GREAT comment. On point. I’m one. Divorced 6 years ago. Have given $300,000 after tax dollars to ex as shadow alimony so far while literally turning down sex from 22 yo hotties on Friday night because going to get my kids for the weekend.

    Women have NO idea what that’s like. Not one in history has experienced it.

    Women give NO credit for being a real alpha who supports his kids no matter what in the face of crazy ex. Even if the kids are two future women. In fact it’s the opposite they see it as weakness.

    Then they continue to hook up with selfish dark triad asshokes while telling good men who have had sex with 2 women in the past 14 years “men just want sex” while bragging that they just go to a bar dressed nice any time they want sex.

    It is no wonder so many men commit suicude. No wonder at all.

    This current society is VIOLENTLY anti beta man.

  36. M Simon
    I agree that no man should pay for a child who did not legally adopt or is not biologically his child. The current course we are on will cause a collapse. The question is when, how intense will it be and how long will it last?

  37. 447
    I agree that any man especially a MGTOW man who helps any woman who has not proven her worth to himself is causing the price of the pussy to go up. Women want attention more than sex. Men want sex more than attention. Denying women attention hurts them more than pump and dump sex from PUAs. At least the PUA gets something in exchange for his effort while the helpful to the ladies MGTOW gets nothing and becomes a White Knight Mangina frustrated chump beta orbiter. The best way most women(there are exceptions to this rule) in this world can reward a man is to ejaculate his penis or offer to do so. the best thing men can do for women is give them attention and help or offer to do so.

  38. a day late and a dollar short, that’s me, Jeremy, but just to put you out of your misery …
    google image search “written on water” I got it 2nd hit.

    Although having had English Culture rammed up my bahookie since the age of four or five, I had an instant flashback to Keats’ epitaph (although I don’t think I was actually beaten to get that one to stick, being too old and large for the teachers by then).

  39. 447
    March 4th, 2015 at 8:00 am

    Not every man is strong enough. In any case I got what I wanted and tamed her. So far. 40 years and counting.

  40. doclove
    March 4th, 2015 at 9:37 am

    When? Can’t say. Europe will be first. How intense? If we don’t do something really stupid – not very.

    Keep in mind that if there is no rampage the production machinery will remain in place. And the correction need not be any harder than, “From now on….”

    If we start with “Child support requires DNA” that could start us on the road to a fix.

  41. This current society is VIOLENTLY anti beta man.

    In various ways society has always been that way. The deal is men are surplus. We have machines that can replace at least 5% for production. That number will be going up.

    I remember when electronics eqpt. was hand assembled. Connections were individually soldered. Now it is all machines. Cars are like that. Robots are coming.

    So far women and a few sperm donors are required for children.

    Betas are surplus. Alpha up. And teach your male offspring game.

    So if you want a future figure out how to get on a production team. Learn some aspect of 3D printing.CNC machining. Inventing. Or how to manage all that. Or finance it. Product life cycles. Repair. Maintenance.

    Labor will not be what it once was.

  42. 447
    March 4th, 2015 at 8:00 am

    I always preferred sluts. A matter of taste. But very well suited to the current environment.

    But I’m always happy to see men who can’t stand them. More for me.

  43. M Simon
    The correction will happen. No one knows how it will play out not even me. Our government will run out of money to enforce this stupidity of feminism against men as well as other stupid ideas such as socialism. no one can get anything done unless he, she or it pays for it-simple economics. The European Union will probably collapse before the USA. Our ruling elite never want to tie child support to DNA results, and will need to be forced by the populace into doing so which I don’t see coming any time soon.

  44. @doclove

    Any “collapse” of society will just look like a slow crumbling just like the last 50 years have as men have slowly become marginalized.

  45. Main point here: be real with yourself.

    If you’re doing something because it’s what you want to do, that’s one thing. If you’re doing something as a substitute for something else that you’d rather be doing, that’s another thing.

    Forget other people. What matters is knowing what you yourself want and don’t want.

  46. If you consider MRA dudes, fighting for men’s rights is not exactly “running with the pack”, is it?

    I can’t help but to look at the two “camps” as the same camp, but with a subsection of guys with some extra political ambition or sense of civic duty. Essentially, MRA sorts of dudes are “going their own way”, if they weren’t, they’d be PUA’s. So, just as the “Tea Party” is a subsection of the Republicans, MRA is a subsection of the MGTOW party. If it weren’t this way, MRA’s would be status-quo.

    But, MRA’s are certainly not status-quo, they are looking to change their environment so that, well, their environment is better. If MRA’s get some laws up for votes, MGTOW’s would surely vote with them, as would PUA’s, I’m sure. I can understand how an MRA would see it in terms of “Flight or Flight” and be critical of the perceived “flight” of a MGTOW guy. MRA’s want to fight: that’s great for Men. However, some people’s situations afford them potential that others might not have. A person with his own website, who is a dating coach, with a huge network and audience, a book or three, can spread the word and have an impact. GREAT! Use it for Man kind to affect change. For others, without millions to get elected in any office, with no “bullhorn” to broadcast with, they aren’t as well suited to be actively MRA, but that doesn’t mean MRA isn’t their party affiliation, or they disagree with the movement, or even have any opposing views: they just don’t have “fix other people’s problems” as a priority, or have the extra resources to hit the campaign trail, or elements of their personal life need addressing before working on the public at large.

    I’ve admitted “flight” in the past, but not in so many words. I understand the majority is in control, and until Men are the majority amongst other men, AND women, I don’t see much change as realistic. Until the scales tip, I’m certainly not going to “bid up the price”.

    I like “bid up the price”. I’ve tried articulating that dynamic in the past, but was at a loss for the words to adequately express it.

    My overall feeling regarding stepping away from the market was such that I had had enough pussy to be at a place where it was all alike. I know, it seems sad on the surface, not really caring if it’s tight, loose, shaved, hairy, big labia, small labia… for me, the inside of the rubber feels the same with any woman. Whoop-de-doo, another notch. Personally, I got sick of the unique, yet common, shenanigans necessary to feel another rubber. Every “unique” struggle with women had ended in the same fake rubber feeling.

    Now, here’s where I wanted to find a device to articulate bidding up the price in the past. Just as with supply and demand, my bed post was full of notches: at that point, when you are alone, staring at your notches, when does vagina lose value? Double-digits? Triple-digits? Well, it should be right after anyone pops the red pill, right?

    Pre-red-pill, any dude would value vagina highly, and likely above their own value. But, if you took your medicine properly, one day you’ll stand in line waiting to check out somewhere, and a “have-a-penny” cup will sing to you metaphorically. The song goes something like this:

    Pre-red-pill, I’d never “leave-a-penny”. No, if I let go of a penny, it was because I had a hole in my pocket. Pennies were valuable to me. Being somewhat “natural”, I didn’t need to “take-a-penny”, either. The “have-a-penny” cup was “there”.

    But, post-red-pill, I wanted to see if there were any pre-1980’s pennies (real copper) in those cups. To be clear, I wanted to see if there were any “quality” women. You have to visit several cups before you find real copper pennies. Again, to be clear, you have to sift through lots of scummers to find quality (men and women, alike).

    Now hang on, this is where “bid up the price” and these “pennies” come together. Standing there, staring a the “cup of pennies” (or standing at a club looking at all the… “not dimes”), you might consider taking a couple, despite the couple already in your pocket. But, you consider the dude behind you with no pennies in his pocket, so you let them be, because they won’t have the value to you that the next guy might have.

    Further, when you have pennies that aren’t real copper, the red-pill teaches you to get rid of them to make room in your pocket. Whereas, pre-red-pill, you keep your pennies, because they are still $.01, regardless of being real copper or not. Your values change post-red-pill, and every time you meet “Penny”, her value depends on what she’s made of. At worst, she’s $.01, at best, $.02. It makes rummaging around in the cup for copper seem somewhat un-rewarding in terms of investment/reward when you understand that it’s 1/100th significance of the “dollar” that is a dude’s life.

    While you’re standing there waiting, the PUA in front of you scooped up all the pennies. Maybe he was bored standing there waiting, reaching in and plucking them one-by-one, fumbling and dropping a few, picking them back up… The cup is now empty. That might not affect YOU, because you have a couple “Penny’s” in your pocket, maybe a couple of “Jenny’s”, too. But, that guy behind you might have a hole in his pocket, or he just threw his bitch-of-a-penny into a fountain. He’ll have to break a $100 to get change now, thanks to the PUA who needlessly and recklessly scooped up all those “Penny’s”.

    As it is now, we go to clubs and pay $150 for “Penny”, whose red-pill value is $.01. Penny should be free, after all, there’s cups of ’em sitting around all over the place, giving themselves away freely to any who have the balls to grab them up.

    Would you take a penny out of a “have-a-penny” cup and leave $150 in it’s place? Surely not, it’s a sharing cup, not a vending machine. Yet, in Japan, there are vending machines for used women’s panties! That’s akin to charging money for the black, skuzzy residue at the bottom a “have-a-penny” cup! We attach value to women’s filth and refuse, now? A man’s undies? Gross. A woman’s skid-marks? Precious! The more crust, the better!

    We dudes (I have to include myself, as I have been guilty) persist with women who behave in a flat-out adversarial way. This doesn’t encourage them to behave in a cooperative manner, no, the persistence reinforces for them that adversarial behavior is appropriate, and perhaps even MORE adversarial behavior would be even MORE appropriate. Essentially, guys go about trying to fuck enemies, at any cost, instead of choosing to fuck only “friendly” chicks. “Pussy is pussy, right bro? I got mine!” *high five*

    Without men being responsible with their red-pill knowledge, and using some discretion, the objectification of women as having some above-and-beyond intrinsic value will continue. Bros, even if “Penny” is a “10”, she is only worth $.01. She is not a “dime”, she is not worth $150, and the world is overpopulated. There are women everywhere, too many, in fact, just as there are also too many guys. Many people don’t even bother to pick pennies up when they see them lying on the ground, free for the taking, and nobody is looking.

    When we squabble about “camps”, I think we overlook the greater goods we can affect despite “camps”. One of which being “driving up the cost”. I’ve wished on many occasion that dude’s would collectively side-step the FI in such a way to decrease or reverse the inflated market value of vagina. I find my self thinking “Dude! STOP TEXTING!” or “What the hell are you playing women’s video games for?” Collectively, dudes shower women with affection, pander to them, supplicate, and jump through their hoops for a whiff. If Pavlov’s dogs drool at a simple bell ring, imagine how women are trained to expect, not food at the bell, but attention when the text notification sound goes off. When the text bell sounds, women start to salivate, because they know a free dinner isn’t far behind.

    Expectation evolves into entitlement over time.

    The fact that many guys out there don’t even bother to ask themselves “is this chick worth fucking?” before fucking them regardless disappoints me. I used to not qualify, either, but now that I do, I chose discretion over simply “getting some”. Do I still enjoy women? Of course, two-at-a-time. But I only put one back in my pocket and toss the other one back in the cup when I’m done with her.

    I feel sorry for guys on that “more pussy, more pussy, more, More, MORE!!!” trip. It’s like the fat guy at the buffet, eating and eating and eating, stacking up a pile of plates… Is he hungry? Or, is he warped?
    He’s certainly not healthy.

    Eventually the restaurant has to jack up the price of the buffet, thanks to Fatty McPig-Outtersen. The feminine imperative is the restaurant, vagina is the buffet, and when you take advantage and over-indulge, the price goes up for the next folks. Consider how and why gluttony is considered a sin: it’s the ramifications of said gluttony that is the bulk of the offense.

    One of the laws of power illustrates not overshooting your established “finish line”. That is, after you win, don’t push beyond winning, lest you create more damages from the campaign than gains. “More” is not a finite goal, and “more” as a goal will create more losing than winning. How much pussy is enough? If your needs are met, can one “meet their needs more”?

    Stupid question, I suppose, seeing as how people stand in line to get a new phone with a phone that works fine in their pocket, huh?

  47. Bruno Mars – “When I was your man”

    “It all just sounds like oooooh…
    Mmm, too young, too dumb to realize
    That I should’ve bought you flowers
    And held your hand
    Should’ve gave you all my hours
    When I had the chance
    Take you to every party
    ‘Cause all you wanted to do was dance
    Now my baby’s dancing
    But she’s dancing with another man”

    LOL, was listening to the radio on the way into work and heard this guy, now what he is saying he would have done sounds massively beta, the fact that she is gone means he didn’t do these things but at the same time he is being beta because he literally made a song about her.

  48. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

    The more I think about this, the more I think it’s like (perhaps even a part of) learned Alpha. At first maybe it is a Buffer, but the more experience, confidence, and mastery you gain, the more it becomes a part of who you are. The more you internalize an abundance mentality, the more OI simply becomes a part of you. It starts as a “fake it ’til you make it” just like self-confidence does.

    Personally I find that knowing the statistics of how many attractive women are available (less than 1 in 20 on average) combined with how often I see LWBHs (Lose Weight Be Hot) here in the South makes abundance mentality really hard to achieve. It’s hard to feel like it’s raining hot chicks in your life when you live where there’s no hot chicks. In this case, OI arises from an attitude of “Well of course I couldn’t attract a hot one when there’s so few hot ones around to attract.”

    I am not yet the kind of man that all women would readily hop right in to the sack with. I’ve improved a lot, as when I was younger no woman would express interest in me openly much less fuck quickly. Now HB4s and HB5s straight up throw themselves at me ready to fuck almost immediately. Single moms, LWBHs, imminent Wall collisions, post-Wall divorcees, butterfaces, and psychos straight up throw themselves at me sexually and enthusiastically. Granted, not an assortment that I really want to attract, but none the less it’s women enthusiastic to fuck without any promise of commitment on my part whatsoever. It’s a step up from the times I was a beta schlub they were with simply because they couldn’t do better at the moment.

    Occasionally I take them up on it, but I’ve grown tired of fucking women I’m not enthusiastic about fucking no matter how in to me they are. I must improve who I am, up the Alpha, and continue sweeping out the Beta. I must move somewhere with a lower obesity rate and a better male:female ratio. Most of all though I need to figure out what my mission is and how I plan to achieve it. Between focusing there (making it more important than women), improving myself, cultivating a Stoic view of life, and living where the numbers aren’t against me, OI can become a part of who I am instead of a strategy for avoiding the pain of rejection while I learn.

  49. @Vulpine

    I see where you are coming from, you want a complete change and reversal of our current social dynamic and that’s really what every man would wish for but its just not going to happen. We need to just perform the best as possible in our current situation.

    @Sun Wukong

    Couldn’t have put it any better:

    “I’m not saying I like how things are. I simply see how they are and look for the strategy that works best within that paradigm. Whether I like it or not is immaterial; I am too small to change it and only care what I can get out of it. As soon as banding together with other dudes becomes the most beneficial move for me, I’ll be doing it. For now it’s not.”

  50. Simon, wrong, and you failed to consider the rest of my and Octavian’s point. We are discussing no-fault divorced men who are good fathers who provide financially for their kids at an extreme level, against all odds, voluntarily crushing any chance at a sex life, for the good of the children. No, society was not always *this* anti-beta man, because until very recently we had one-woman-one-man policies that encouraged marriage and family, which was a restriction on female hypergamy. Rollo has covered this at length. Please read carefully.

    The ancients recognized female hypergamy. This is seen both in religious texts and secular laws and mores. Marriage was created to help both beta men (80% of us) and “plainer women” who are not the top 20% in beauty. Any decent man and any decent woman ended up married, and would raise a family. This arrangement created immeasurable benefit to society at large, to children, to civilization, and created the safest, best (not perfect) society for the most people that could be created, given that humans are imperfect.

    The current situation is an 80/20 rule of soft hypergamy – 20% of the most “alpha” men get 80% of the sex, with the hottest perhaps 40% of the women (who don’t mind sharing the alphas lolzlolzlolz), and the other 80% of men have barely any sex life or are involuntarily celibate. The current situation benefits only female hypergamy and the top “PUA alphas” (who are not truly alpha under the true sense of the word, as explained below). Both normal beta men and less hot women are left without a partner with whom to raise children and grow old. Yes, even a 5 or 6 woman can have a sex life, but since women cannot be trusted to handle their own sex or relationship lives (see below), this is actually bad for them without them knowing it.

    All throughout time until recently, “chivalry” required a suitor to gain the approval of the woman’s FATHER to marry her. This is depicted in countless old school princess movies. That’s because women cannot be trusted to handle their own sex lives and relationship lives, because of hypergamy and inability to plan for the future, as the current situation proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. You know the deal—the woman wants to chase the alpha bad boy who is bad for her, but the father knows better and forces her to marry the beta “stable guy” who the father knows will protect her over the long haul.

    Now that women have been “liberated” to handle their own sex lives, they have their CC-riding “party years” from age 18 until 35, during which time they (1) have casual sex with between 20 and 100 “alpha” men, giving their best asset (sex) away for free to guys who offer no commitment; (2) are very proud of doing so, especially the current under-28 crowd; and (3) reject any beta man who hints that he might want commitment and a family while younger than 30, even though that is, of course, biologically appropriate.

    After proudly riding the CC from age 18 until 35, following Sheryl Sandberg’s express advice to pursue the “alpha fux beta bux” mating strategy, at age 35, then these women go on dating sites and ask “where have all the good men gone?” and they chastise and berate any beta who might want sex prior to taking them out on 3 dinner dates, even though they gave it away for free when they were younger, tighter, and hotter to douchebags for a bag of skittles or less. These same women will brag to the beta they are yelling at because “men only want sex” that the woman, if she wants sex, simply “puts on a nice dress and goes to a bar and has sex” [with one of the alpha douchebags she meets there in the bar who offers her no commitment or even dinner]. This woman is yelling and bragging in this manner while not realizing that this means she is the one who has had sex perhaps 50 to 80 times in the past 15 years while the beta at whom she is misdirecting her ignorance has had sex with, say, TWO women in the past 15 years—his ex wife and his ex girlfriend with whom he had a 3-year LTR.
    Now this beta male we are discussing might be a divorced dad who for six years, after being involuntarily no-fault divorced even though (1) he never cheated; (2) he never hit her or the children or anything close to that; (3) he was a loving good father; (4) he provided a nice home; (5) he asked the judge to order counseling in court on the day the divorce was entered, but the judge let the ex wife decide and she said no, so divorce granted; and (6) the children at the time who loved their dad were 18 months old and 3 years, respectively, has done everything he can to protect the children from their mother’s ignorance and selfishness, for example: (1) entered the secret 83% tax bracket that is reserved for no-fault divorced dads who want to protect their children, by first paying 33% in taxes to the government and then paying 50% of what’s left over to his wife as “shadow alimony” that the IRS treats as a voluntary gift, which is not tax deductible, which is done literally to pay her rent, where the children live most of the time in a good school district; (2) paid $300,000.00 in these after-tax dollars in the 6 years after the divorce, not counting the $200,000 or so in wealth the wife squandered during the marriage; while (3) having the kids every weekend and being with them as much as he can while voluntarily giving up a sex life between age 34 and 40.

    This is the man Octavian might have been mentioning, a divorced dad who has lost $500,000 or so to the ex wife (that’s the mother embezzling the children’s college and future money), while doing things such as literally declining multiple offers from younger women on Friday nights because said dad is going to get his kids that night.

    Now if this man is MGTOW and has some bitterness, who can blame him? He is a true alpha. The entire point of hypergamy is that women are subconsciously testing for the strongest, best male to protect and provide for her and her children, pass on the best genes, and protect the pack/tribe/pride/troupe from competitor tribes/packs/nations/invaders. But today, women pick “fuzzy hat” wearing game practitioners, even while knowing they are doing this, from age 18-35, and vehemently reject any suggestion that they should get married and have kids when they are younger than 28 or even 35. This is a failure on women’s part and society’s fault for abandoning the patriarchy. A real alpha in today’s world is one who will make enough money and have the willingness to support, teach, and protect his children and the mother of his children.

    In fact, things are so bad now due to women being liberated to make their own mating choices, that not only will a woman not recognize or understand these simple facts, she will actually decide that this divorced dad described herein is “weak” for supporting his children and putting his children first in this manner, while giving it up for free to lesser men who (1) earn less money, total, than the divorced dad has left over even after he pays 50% to the ex and 33% to the government, and support nobody else but themselves, (2) are uglier and physically weaker; and (3) are in bars offering nothing put putting their penis in the woman for that night only.

    Women see any sign that a man wants or would commit to COMMITMENT as repulsive and they cannot be attracted to it.

  51. @Rude Awakening
    *nod* My pleasure.

    @Bromeo, it’s interesting how you used “complete” and “reversal” there.

    Folks, listen specifically from ~1:53 until 4:24.

    “But this, she thought, was men’s moral code in the outer world.”

    Where she’s thinking: “here, in this valley”, think more like “here, in the manosphere”, and “men’s moral code in the outer world” becomes relevant.

    Feel free to turn it off after:
    “No one’s happiness but my own is in my power to achieve, or destroy.”

    Seems like one could accuse John Gault of being “isolationist”, except for all that “being out stopping the motor of the world” stuff. Does that make him an “isolationist MRA” Or, is he technically disqualified as being “Men’s” rights aligned since he was helping all, not just dudes?


  52. Oh I get it, Rollo. Between a rock and a hard place. I have lost countless women who told me they can’t handle that I can’t be available on weekends. I kind of don’t blame them. I have to have so much game to have a sex life that I have to get women to hook up only on week nights when we both have work the next day. Can’t and don’t try to hide my status–anyone entering my apartment (with a view of the ocean) sees photos of my kids everywhere.

    And I meant to add, re: the failure of hypergamy in today’s world: a woman can see this divorced dad who has literally proven (1) the ability to have healthy, smart, attractive kids (not impotent); and (2) the ability and willingness to support, teach, and protect both them and their mother against all odds, to the detriment of his own needs, and yet today’s women’s hypergamy will literally misfire (it’s an error) and wrongly conclude that this man is “weak”!!!! While at the same time the woman will give it up for free to “douchebags” who offer no commitment and have not yet proven they can even sire a child, who make less money than the divorced dad has left over even after paying his 83% in taxes, who are smaller and physically weaker (cave man alpha standards). They will literally do this simply because of “availability” — the weaker, selfish, dark triad PUA who might be unable to have kids for all she knows is available on Friday night (even though he’s 35) because of selfish decisions he made to not get married or have kids at age 28 like the better man, the divorced dad, did.

  53. Dammit, that didn’t link right at all.

    I linked everyone to CD 3, Part 39 of 86

    Please hold while I put you through…

  54. Had to chime in again.

    Nothing more disturbing than my recently divorced male acquaintances. They have been outside of the SMP for 20 years or so…
    After a quick profile on OKC and POF, they lose their minds. Taken to cleaners by dinner whores, actual whores, flakiness, madness,
    the HB3 that posts “fake” pictures making her not look like an elephant, the BPD divorcees, the list goes on….They do not ” get it.” They seethe with anger and frustration. They can not believe they can not get laid. They are flabbergasted.

    It is a mother fucking bitch living under the FI oppression. They are so “thirsty” for that vagina. One of them drove 95 miles (one way) to buy drinks!!!! “She looked so cute on POF” was his rational explanation. They email any woman. Something like this, “Hi, loved your pics. Would love to buy you dinner…” They are horrible casualties. I send them here, or tell them to buy Rollo’s book. Do they listen??
    Fuck no. Bunch of dumb internet trolls. That’s what they consider this site. They criticize it worse than women. I feel the sadness pouring out of their every pore. Oh well.
    Have a great day everyone.

  55. Yossarian, that’s not me, FYI. That was me six years ago when the divorce first happened. Then I discovered CH and Rollo in late 2012 and have learned some game — cocky/funny, confident, I’m the prize, teasing, not kissing their ass, flirting with them in a way that works, following the script that they all respond to like clockwork (e.g., “who’s this?” text), no dinner dates. I have improved my flirting immensely and have gotten into some great situations with HB9s aged anywhere from 22 to 25 to 28 (many of them) and up to 35 (with still hot body), and have learned how to make them light up, but it is a literal cock block to not go out on weekends (will not give up my children’s time with me — that’s their time that *they* need), and also giving away half my money resulting in not as nice a car or apartment or clothes as I could have (but the money part is not even the main problem).

    I also send this site and CH to men I know who need it, and have discovered the exact same thing: willful ignorance. MOst men are so blue pill and FI-trained that they will dismiss this blog without even reading it (just like a woman would).

    Every week I turn down an HB8 from tinder who offers me a Friday or Saturday night, every single week. Last week’s example was 25 yo HB7 law student who immediately sent me naked pics I did not ask for, told me for 3 days how she wanted me to tie her up Sunday night (planned for me to go over to her apartment), and then she flaked saying she can’t handle that I can’t do weekends. She had originally wanted Friday night and she was completely up for it then. I had my kids with me Friday night as I always do.

    The no-fault divorce industrial complex combined FI brainwashing for women the last 30 years can literally rob even a lower alpha man of a sex life, when that men loves his kids and will put them first no matter what. My ex wife’s bad decisions (and the system letting her be the boss) has literally destroyed the life my kids were supposed to have and destroyed my chance at the life I earned and “deserve,” frankly. I work very hard to support a woman and my two kids (I don’t mind the latter) only to come home every day and never get to experience my kids running to the door saying “Daddy’s home!!!” I earned that, and my ex was allowed by the FI divorce complex to rob me of that. She gets all the benefits of being a wife with none of the burdens. I’m not even attracted to her, but she should come over and give me a BJ and clean my house once a week just out of common decency.

  56. ” All women are perpetually glued to their fucking Iphones. It’s a 24/7 validation portal that gives them the perfect ‘out’ so they never have to interact in real life or look men in the eye.”

    Actually, some women don’t have smart phones.
    That is another screening criterion that may soon no longer exist if they want any kind of cell phone.

  57. @ Divorced Dad

    I’m a 40 y/o divorced guy and unplugged about the same time as you via Rollo & CH.

    Fact that your kids are so young I do feel for your situation. It’s gut-wrenching. Kids that young don’t really get whats going on either and mummy can poison their impressionable minds. My kids were around 7 & 11 and were ok about it all; better still my ex left the kids with me full-time up until 6 months ago (oh and I didn’t seek child support all that time). I worked a 50 hour week and still looked after my kids quite successfully. But, as soon as she was able to by shacking up with new beta, she took them back and now I’m every second weekend dad. Which I’m ok with.
    I’m now “daddy good-times” as opposed to the daily grind / disciplinary dad.

    Re your dating “problems” – you must be a good looking high value guy to be getting hook-ups with HB7-9s every weekend off tinder etc. I wish I had that problem. Maybe I’m uglier than I thought lol.
    Do you have them every 2nd weekend or every weekend??
    Surely you can manage bang logistics somehow. Get a sitter or a friend to mind them one night.

    It gets better as your kids get older – trust me.

  58. @ Divorced Dad

    I was only relating stories about people I know. I never meant to insinuate anything about you. I fully understand your plight, and I am glad you are doing well. I have nothing but respect for all of us caught in this struggle.

  59. Yossarian talking about divorced acquaintances’ dating woes:

    “She looked so cute on POF,… the HB3 that posts “fake” pictures making her not look like an elephant,..”

    Divorced Dad recites the (in my opinion grossly exaggerated) boilerplate nightmare scenarios found in the ‘sphere.: “and the other 80% of men have barely any sex life or are involuntarily celibate…” How much is this kind of language is used as an excuse for flawed execution and justification for giving up?

    My opinion is a lot of these failures result from unrealistic expectations of getting hot babes or otherwise setting inappropriate filters on what women to approach or eliminate from consideration.

    For example, the first time I found myself single after my divorce, I got on a dating site and got two lovers with minimum effort. One was a physically attractive woman, the other was a blond Ukranian single mom living locally. Although I ended up upgrading, I had some enjoyable interactions and sex with both of them.

    What did I do different? Both of them had no pics with their profiles on the dating site. I took a chance and it paid off.

  60. @Doclove: “Our government will run out of money to enforce this stupidity of feminism against men as well as other stupid ideas such as socialism”

    European perspective: Sadly, one can’t be sure of that at all.

    In Europe, making debts has been the longstanding norm for decades now – even though the individual countries are smaller than the US of course, making more and more debts is no problem at all.

    In Germany, there is even a newspeak-word for that which means (literarlly) “newdebts”.
    Politicians and all of the so called “critical” media discuss this “newdebt” all the time – now what does it mean?
    This term only describes the NEW debts that are piled on to the other debts alreadys existing!
    I know this might seem unimaginable to Americans, but the public and all media have swallowed this whole: Everybody discusses “newdebts”, politicians even talk about “making no new debts” etc. only referreing to “newdebts”.

    That is because money has for a long, long time been factually cut of from any material basis.

    The state runs out of money?
    The state will do all the things (with full cooperation from the real players in economy –> banks etc.) you can see in the movie”In Time”:
    Subtly raising prices for everyone, plainly taking away x percent of all bank accounts (which nearly happened in Greece) etc.pp.

    People buy property to escape that? Well, just raise the tax on property massivly…and if everything fails, there will just be a reset of the currency, with all the apex-alphas being informed in time, who will just flee into goods, values or papers that are unaffected by the conditions of the specific reset.

    Waiting for the state to go broke is futile – because the the real movers and shakers of economy and the state have the same interests:
    – destroy healthy families for short term impulses (increase labour pool & sell basically double the amount of short lived-consumer goods)
    – force everybody to pile into the same systems with their small amount of money, generating massive capital (in my region, not a day goes by without some radio commenter pressing things like “ohhhh, don’t money under your pillow like the stupid old folks” into every unlikly news topic)
    -keep white men and white families down, because these people demand a functioning, healthy and orderly social enviroment from the state (costing them money)

    etc. pp.

    I could go on – but one can easily see the point: Waiting for states to go broke is futile. They can always out-wait you.

    And as Greece has shown, the masses of beta-population won’t even rise up and smash the parasites when their banks are closed and money is taken basically directly out of their accounts…

  61. @ Jack le Bear “My opinion is a lot of these failures result from unrealistic expectations of getting hot babes or otherwise setting inappropriate filters on what women to approach or eliminate from consideration”

    ” How much is this kind of language is used as an excuse for flawed execution and justification for giving up?”
    I agree – this happens a lot.

    For some reason, the simply “theory” of “fucking up the ladder” is rarly discussed:
    OF COURSE you only get mediocre or not-so-good women at first.
    Because the results of game are determined by your game skills.
    So OF COURSE at first you will perhaps bang HBs low on the ladder- but then you move up, if you increase your “skills” (gam skills, body, etc.pp., the usual).
    Because you get more “skill”, your “score” increases and you leave the lower rungs of the fuck ladder behind you.

    Actually, it would be pretty strange to go from zero to hero (bang nothing, then suddely supermodels offer themselves to you in public) like in some blue pill-movies.

  62. Actually, it would be pretty strange to go from zero to hero (bang nothing, then suddely supermodels offer themselves to you in public) like in some blue pill-movies.


    Funny thing is that’s exactly what women have the privilege of going through with almost zero effort required, hence a big part of the reason they never understand the male situation. They will never be able to grasp the work that goes in to becoming a sexually succesful male for that reason alone.

    The only karma in the situation is that they can’t prevent the eventual slide to back in to zero long before most of them will pass. Only at the end do they understand what it’s like to be a normal man.

  63. “I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

    And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.”

    I agree with this, it has nothing to do with having the woman appreciate you. You could argue that in some roundabout way they kinda, almost recognise the confidence though…maybe.

    Attraction is based on heuristics for both men and women. We’re all very lazy and rely on heuristics for everything.

    For men, these heuristics might be smooth, youthful skin, nice tits or ass, etc. (basically signs of fertility or things that would represent a survival/child rearing advantage (CH had a recent post about curvature of the spine in women)). It’s primarily visual for men and mostly subconscious (I certainly don’t measure the angle of a woman’s spine).

    Attraction for women is much more complex. They still use heuristics. Most game techniques for attraction break down to tripping positive heuristics and avoiding the negative ones.

    For example qualification is an attraction technique. Most unattractive men will take anything they can get and don’t have standards. Attractive men have options and standards. By letting her JUST pass your standards, you’re tripping this heuristic. Same thing with takeaways, negs, teasing, etc., etc. You’re doing things attractive guys usually do and unattractive guys rarely or never do. Or more accurately, things that trip her hypergamy, attractive guys are “above” her and the heuristics are shortcuts to show this.

    The strength of the attraction “created” is based on how accurate the heuristic is. This can be context specific. If you’re queuing up for your turn to approach in a Turkish nightclub, don’t expect to “generate” much attraction. If you approach in a Scandinavian nightclub before the guys are all drunk, expect to “generate” a lot more. Same thing with nightgame vs. daygame, approaches during the day can get extremely positive reactions.

    This is why preselection is so powerful, it’s a very accurate heuristic for women. Most of the time women aren’t consciously aware of what’s causing this attraction.

    From this we could back out the “reasons” why it works, a lot of PUAs and life coaches come up with some flowery reasons. A simple way to see why they generate attraction is to ask why don’t unattractive guys do these things. For approaching, it’s because unattractive guys don’t have the confidence to do it. So in some roundabout way they do recognise the confidence but really not. It’s like a woman complaining that men don’t appreciate the skill that went into her make-up application, I might respect the skill set but that’s not why I want to fuck her.

    From this you could also back out self-improvement projects to make yourself a more attractive man (I didn’t say a “better man” btw, for our MGTOW friends who’ve made some valid points).

  64. @Divorced Dad,

    What you’ve observed is the r/K selection theory:

    We’re currently living in an r-selected society and you’re demonstrating K-selected qualities.

    From wikipedia:
    “Neither mode of propagation is intrinsically superior, and in fact they can coexist in the same habitat, as in rodents and elephants.”

    It’s not that they necessarily see the qualities you’re trying to demonstrate as a weakness, they’re just not as important in today’s environment.

    I can tell you’re dealing with a lot of pain, I have a beautiful little girl from a previous relationship and I respect the effort you put in to raising your daughters, as I do the same. I don’t expect women to want to fuck me because of it though. Adapt to the environment you live in, don’t complain that it’s not what you think it “should be”.

    Anger and depression are common phases involved with unplugging, it gets better. Channel your anger for productive purposes while you have it.

  65. More thoughts. I encourage all of you to give me pointers and/or criticism.

    At my age ( early 40’s) I have no hopes of finding an Unicorn. Or the “One.”
    My possible outcomes are dating multiple partners (I dislike saying spinning plates) or going full MGTOW. I have tried it, but the truth is I wanted the vagina…

    Now, unless I am MGTOW, I feel that at all
    times, even with the ladies I’m dating I still have the ” burden to perform.” Even the
    running of game is tiresome. Even if I
    internalized and memorized and practiced most of the concepts. Even if I am a natural asshole, that exhibits dark triad traits….Naturally. Doing the things I want. Having no regard for anything. Being aloof,
    distant, a complete prick….I still see my need for “performance.” I understand that it is the
    price I have to pay. I am fully cognizant.

    I guess that unless I want to be fully MGTOW,
    my only alternative is to continue playing my
    limited role. It is just annoying. I am at the
    point where if a “lady” says one wrong thing or rolls her eyes…I just want to bolt for the door.
    I have reached an existential impasse where I
    DO NOT care if I get laid. If you piss me off with one remark…I am gone.

    So, what can a brother do? My conundrum pertains to the female topic. I will not bore you with who and what I am screwing…blah, blah,
    blah. I am not worried about my life direction.
    My goals. My frame. My meaning. My betterment. My alpha. My beta. All that good stuff. Consider me what you will like. Anything for that matter. An aging male…

    Again. At this age (single, no kids), with
    marriage and children looking as impossible, does anyone relate to my conundrum? I’m
    dating women for sex basically. I find them meaningless. Yet, I still can not escape the
    validation of the vagina…Does that make
    me…? Do we really escape the Matrix Rollo? Is there a way? Or do we re- fashion a different version of it?

    I am grateful for any inputs. I hope my little meaningless paragraphs have not bored most of you. Just words trapped in my head.
    Thank you.

  66. I’ve had a couple friends of mine completely devalue sex in their minds.

    They have tried to do that while still dating, still clinging to a blue pill based relationship with a girl, etc.

    To them, their highest solution is having no sexuality at all. They see women as venus fly traps. They continue to get laid — which I’m not getting — but they’re less honest with themselves and their desires/urges than I am.

    Funnily enough, I’ve brought up some Red Pill tenets with one of them, and they instantly denied it all. Their investment is COMPLETELY in NAWALT. They really believe that it’s the quality of women that’s the problem, which also leads to them hyper over-investing in any women they think are ‘special,’ and feeling absolutely crushed if things don’t work out with them.

    They still buy into the vulnerability thing, and think a good quality woman will recognize the value of vulnerability/intimacy/etc…

    …even though they’re spinning plates, they keep breaking because of his clinging to blue pill ideas. He isn’t prioritizing himself, and he’s giving all his power away to women. He KNOWS that he’s doing this, but he doesn’t see dating and being at peace with himself as an option.

    He thinks that dating/having sex is EQUAL to giving his power away. That wanting and craving sex is the manifestation of an addiction, due to a love deficit from childhood.

    It’s all or nothing — either go completely celibate, or stay involved with women and think of sex and desiring sex as a “drug addiction” and that anything short of a perfect relationship with a unicorn as a manifestation of an addiction and just trying to fill a love deficit from childhood.

    I can understand that deficit from childhood. I’ve had to deal with that. But honestly I believe the best way is to heal that trauma itself, and make a separation in the mind, a distinction, between self-love and then dating/sex.

    Self-love to me means keeping my mind clean: if I get triggered and all that anger/resentment/etc. comes up, I work to clean it out. This is what I use Faster EFT for. It works. And it’s directly addressing the real core of the problem.

    As far as wanting sex goes, being horny, etc. — I’ve gotten MUCH better at separating that from the emotional trauma from all the crud in my life. I’m not seeing sex as an ‘addiction’ or an act of trying to ‘fill a void’ anymore.

    And honestly I feel mentally/emotionally healthier than I ever have in my life. The ‘using sex to fill the void’ thing is a trope. And I think that a lot of guys IMAGINE that they’re pursuing sex to ‘fill the void.’

    But the real deal is, you can fill the void separately, on your own, and still have sex while you do that.

    You can smoke, drink, etc., to try to escape your problems. But if you’re dealing with your problems you can smoke and drink (in moderation), and NOT have those be a form of escapism.

    I smoke and drink in moderation, and don’t feel any particular dependence on either. I’m not a heavy drinker and I’m not a heavy smoker, and if someone told me I had to quit forever starting tomorrow, I wouldn’t be happy, but I’d be okay.

    When people see sex as evil, as an addiction, being involved with women as evil, an addiction — there’s no way out.

    They won’t accept a Red Pill mindset that basically tells them they can enjoy women EVEN MORE without giving themselves away. And actually that NOT giving yourself away, and keeping your cards close to your chest, makes you MORE SUCCESSFUL with pursuing women and keeping them around longer.

    But yeah. A couple friends I’ve had that talk about how sex is a “complete waste of energy” or like ” a drug addiction,” and continue to be attracted to women, and HATE their attraction to women, because they feel controlled by it….

    …it’s ALL a result of clinging to a Blue Pill mindset. It’s so clear in hearing about their dealings with women, and their approach, that it’s all Blue Pill. They’re simply not in control. They have no frame. The woman is the one with the frame in the relationship, controlling it all —

    — I’m preaching to the choir here.

    But I forget that TRP is insider knowledge. I have a lot of insider knowledge of other things too, special skills, like the Faster EFT, and the trade I work in — it’s all INSIDER INFORMATION, and what’s obvious to me, crystal clear… completely unknown to other people.

    I’ve been reading here for a while now. Integrating TRP has been a very long and trying experience for me, and I had a LOT of resistance to it at first. I didn’t “get it.” Even now it’s only starting to sink in more as I’ve dropped my emotional resistance to taking TRP, and am not really angry or bitter anymore, and am better at being real/honest with myself.

    I also have the experience of having bought into the whole “vulnerability in relationships” thing and thinking that the trauma I’ve been through in my life means anything to women, or should mean anything to them — or to anyone else.

    I’ve taken responsibility for dealing with my issues — and trust me, there’ve been a lot, from anorexia to self mutilation to attempted suicide and crazy mood swings, paranoid delusions and nervous breakdowns —

    — so the “old me” is starting to feel like ancient history.

    TRP feels like true health to me. True emotional and psychological health. Because it makes a DISTINCTION in the mind between yourself and women.

    I can be “grounded” and “centered” in myself, and still pursue women. I can have sex if I want to, and date, and all that, and not worry that I’m “giving myself away” or “feeding an addiction,” or that I’m “looking for love in all the wrong places.”

    TRP teaches us that BP strategies don’t work. And when you realize that you aren’t going to get any nookie or “love” or “support” by being vulnerable anyway… stop doing it, at least if you’ve let TRP sink in, and have taken what you’ve learned from it seriously.

    The natural consequence of all that is having a perspective shift about women. I’m not getting laid at the moment but I can definitely imagine myself hooking up with a bunch of different women now, which I couldn’t imagine before.

    “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar,” as Freud said. I’ve been thinking of that in terms of sex. I’m a man. If there’s a hot girl, it’s natural for me to want to fuck her. It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that.

    Sex IS a connection. Craving some “deeper” connection is unnecessary. And it doesn’t mean you’re bitter and jaded like is implied in Don Jon, and need to “see the light” of a “quality woman” with “intimacy.”

    I’m rambling now. But I’m having a lot of thoughts lately, especially after talking to my friend last night and seeing Blue Pill blips on my radar all over the place. Moment of clarity.

    I thought about how I used to have ONE-itis for this girl and it is COMPLETELY GONE now. It’s pretty crazy. It’s hard for me to believe I was so upset about getting turned down by her last year. I have to stop and really focus to understand why it was so upsetting to me, because at a glance now, I just don’t get what the big deal was. But at the time I was completely devastated to say the least.

    Interesting. I get what Rollo’s saying now though about not expecting most guys to accept TRP. It’s taken me a long time to start accepting this stuff. But as I just accept TRP truths for what they are, as time goes on, it’s like hypergamy is less and less of a big deal.

    It’s just how women are…when you start seeing all that play out, and stop being surprised, and stop reacting emotionally…..I think it’s a great feeling of power and control and detachment, without self-delusion. I want to fuck women just as much as I ever have; I’m just not dressing up those desires in fancy robes anymore. Everything feels like it’s just more in focus and more ‘real’ now.

  67. “Hypergamy? Yeah, you could put it in a neat little box and label it and say that it’s an evolved behavior.

    Chances are a fuckload higher that it’s simply selfish, self-centered, narcissistic, acting-out bad behavior by a bunch of childish little cunts who’ve never had the belt around the arse from daddy to teach them better. There’s certainly nothing else out there to restrain these little cum-buckets from wrecking things.”

  68. @Stuttie: re:

    @ Divorced Dad
    I’m a 40 y/o divorced guy and unplugged about the same time as you via Rollo & CH.
    Fact that your kids are so young I do feel for your situation. It’s gut-wrenching. Kids that young don’t really get whats going on either and mummy can poison their impressionable minds. My kids were around 7 & 11 and were ok about it all; better still my ex left the kids with me full-time up until 6 months ago (oh and I didn’t seek child support all that time). I worked a 50 hour week and still looked after my kids quite successfully. But, as soon as she was able to by shacking up with new beta, she took them back and now I’m every second weekend dad. Which I’m ok with.
    I’m now “daddy good-times” as opposed to the daily grind / disciplinary dad.
    Re your dating “problems” – you must be a good looking high value guy to be getting hook-ups with HB7-9s every weekend off tinder etc. I wish I had that problem. Maybe I’m uglier than I thought lol.
    Do you have them every 2nd weekend or every weekend??
    Surely you can manage bang logistics somehow. Get a sitter or a friend to mind them one night.
    It gets better as your kids get older – trust me.

    I’m sorry dude, I know you’re trying to be helpful, but this is exactly the kind of assbackwards horribly wrong ignorant bullshit I get from childless women who can’t possibly understand my plight.

    I ***ONLY*** get my two precious daughters on TWO nights a week. Yes every weekend. If it went to only every other weekend, unlike most guys who put up with that, I would start hurting people. So NO I cannot “get a sitter” to mind them “one night.” That’s 50% of my nights — THEIR nights with me. They need me. I’m the only one who teaches them red pill ideas. Contrary to the blue pill FI world idea that fathers don’t even matter.

    And my ONLY 2 nights happen to be the 2 nights that are weekends when single women who want to fuck me are available (can’t blame them for that). I don’t get them on Fridays. Yes I’m damn hot and in shape and they tell me I’m damn hot and they want to fuck me on Friday but not Wednesday.

    And someone else commented: no neither the $500,000 nor the 80/20 are exaggerated. For those of us who put our kids first: if I’m not getting laid, barely any man is getting laid. I dress well and make girls giggle and blush easily. I’m not a pleated baggy khaki pants wearing IT dork. They offer me Friday night and I give that away because that’s one of my 2 nights with my daughters.

    For SIX years.

    Truth be told, despite all of this, I found and acquired a fiance who loved me, but I had to give her away too. And she truly was NAWALT–a truly kind and smart (and hot) woman.

    I wrote very clearly “every weekend” in my prior post, by the way.

    No, it will never get better. My daughters will never get back the 1,560 nights and mornings they did not get a hug from their dad the past six years. They will never get that back and their lives are altered forever in a horrible way.

    And that’s because of: (1) feminism that allowed no-fault divorced; (2) feminism and FI at an extreme level that has actively encouraged the women with the best genes to not get or stay married; and (3) feminism that allowed crazy feminist female judges to take kids away from a good day involuntarily when the dad provided and is not violent (and teaches and is so good for those kids in infinite ways that cannot even be explained in an 8 hour court hearing or even understood by ANY female brain that has ever existed on this planet.

    Women are not even good parents. They hate children and barely tolerate their own children. That’s another wrong FI stereotype in this society by the way. They lack empathy.

    Men have failed the societywide shit test in a big way, failed to lead, and allowed women to do this to themselves, children, and future civilization.

    See this?:

    Here’s the important thing: whether it’s correct or not to notice that the onset of feminism (females rule society, become judges, etc) starts the decline of an empire, NOT ONE WOMAN in the history of the world, including all the ones wit PhDs, has even ***contemplated*** this article or its points.

    Not one. As women continue to cause our destruction, not ONE of them has even acknowledged that female power could be a problem. Not one.

    All we get is Sheryl Sandberg telling lies in the NYT.

    Try to tell a real woman in the real world these ideas? Not one will come close to getting it. Even as they violate their bodies with ink and jewelry everywhere and to do the CC we all know about.

    Contrast men: in the manosphere, the hated manosphere, a VERY large % of us are very self-evaluating, take the blame, blame men, say divorce is because men are not alpha enough and did not control her even though we get no support from the church, state, government, or law.

    Not ONE woman accepts that a single woman or women as a whole have done one single thing wrong in the area of no fault divorce or the crap we see on popular TV, etc, to cause even a little bit of a problem with this world we live in today.

    I guess I am going to have to start my own blog and write my own book, because some of you are not getting it and not taking red pill far enough.

  69. @DD —

    Would it be possible to modify the schedule so that you don’t decrease the number of nights per week but don’t have them all on each and every Friday and Saturday? That’s a pretty awful schedule, and there are other nights which would make it more equitable (that schedule gives your ex a social life and you none … I get the dedication to the kids (I am also divorced and have a kid and know the drill in terms of the prioritization), but building in some flexibility or changing the nights to allow for one social weekend night might be an idea.)

  70. @yossarian
    Surely you’re too modest. A man of your obvious intellect and erudition must have so much knowledge to impart. What you’ve shared here is fascinating. How does this sexy fucker role go? My question is: how do you maintain a role as the days go by, doesn’t that wear on you? Sometimes I just want to be loved and accepted for who I am but that’s obviously not possible. We’re all actors in someone else’s play. It’s tiresome to be a vehicle for someone else’s goals while they gave away the best parts of themselves to someone else long ago. It’s a crushing realization. Wife of my youth indeed.

  71. @DD

    are you telling potential dates you can’t make it because of your kids? Don’t, just tell them you are busy, and see the dates/plates when it works for you

  72. @Tony232

    Yet I could also argue that such evolved behavior should have been nearly wiped-out evolutionary-wise by the force of 10-15,000 years that we know humanity spent living semi-civilized in villages and towns and cities and the like.

    Except that argument couldn’t be made.

    Evolution of a species generally moves at a glacial pace (meaning 10-15,000 years ain’t shit), and institutions like arranged marriage and the past supplication of betas by allowing them to at least get and keep a woman (regardless of her qualities) meant none of the problem qualities were being bred out. There was no way to tell if the children were yours (short of really obvious cases) before the last century… all that time cuckoldry kept rolling unchecked.

    Quite honestly before man settled in to cities it’s like tribes had a lot of cases of cuckoldry but the village all worked together to raise every child as an extended family, then after settling in to larger towns and cities humans instituted policies that didn’t guarantee breeding out undesirable traits and behaviors that lead to hypergamy. It would have deprived too many betas of women. Not to mention, eugenics generally doesn’t fly with most people.

    So if hypergamy is an evolved characteristic, there were no forces working to breed it out in civilized society and it was probably beneficial enough in an evolutionary sense that it never disappeared before that.

  73. @ Sun Wukong

    What kept hypergamy under control was the real threat of violence or death by starvation when a woman was found in violation of the provisions and protection for sex agreement that made civilization well civil.

    It’s only been in last 100 years that basic survival is not the first priority of the first world and only the last 40 years or so that the rest of world has either caught up or advanced sufficiently to realistically aspire to that.

    A society that allows a beta to cast aside his wife for adultery without material obligation to her or her children has dread built into the relationship regardless of his inclination to act on it.

  74. @ Calvino

    Thank you for the reply.
    It is the internet, so this “sexy fucker” maintains a Henry Miller approach. If you know what I mean…and I’m sure you do.

  75. What kept hypergamy under control was the real threat of violence or death by starvation when a woman was found in violation of the provisions and protection for sex agreement that made civilization well civil.

    It was as much of an agreement among the men as it was anything else. Women were not really in a position to talk terms for almost all of history, being subject to their fathers prior to marriage. The monogamy paradigm was a “deal” among men to share the women out to a broader group of men in exchange for their buy-in, support and work towards a common goal (as compared with the boss man hogging the women). It was always an imposition on primeval hypergamy of the savannah, but it was instrumental in building civilization. When civilizations become wealthy enough, they tend to relax the rules around monogamy (JD Unwin’s “Sex and Culture” describes this very well) in an effort to be “fairer to women” — again, though, this is the men doing it, it isn’t the women because the women have no power unless the men give it to them –> men tend to do that in late stage prosperity civilizations because of fairness, surplus and having mothers, sisters and daughters (kind of like …. the last century in the West).

    The real “breakdown in the deal” isn’t between men and women, per se, but between men, in terms of spreading the sexual wealth. The reason is that the men who would be sexually wealthy have no need for the support, efforts, work, etc., of the men who would be sexually poor, so they can cut them off from sexual “subsidies” like enforced monogamy, without society collapsing in total due to the degree of prosperity, which provides a buffer of significance. People prophesy doom and gloom and collapse, but it doesn’t seem particularly close, especially when most of the sexually poor are anaesthetized with things like: porn which is higher quality and more readily available and private than ever before in history (and free), virtual realities/xbox/games, ESPN, guyland, etc. Bread and circuses, folks.

  76. I always feel like an animal who escaped his cage when we talk about these societal and cultural changes. I just stand and watch everyone stuck in the cage, wallowing in their own shit

  77. Sometimes it is Game that leads you to isolation. After all, when you get to the point of depedestalizing women completely, what’s the point of gaming women and not just calling a hooker? It saves time and everyone knows that time is money.

    When you get to the poing of don’t needing nothing to prove to anyone or to yourself, and you know you are capable of banging an average-good looking girl from time to time.. a girl which very often you despise for what she is… as hypergamous as every other girl in the world…why should you game another one? Who cares what looks more alpha or more beta, does it matter?

    I understand that there are MGTOWs that use their philosophy as an excuse to disguise as a choice their lack of options. Mostly very young omegas or very old broke ones. But it is not always the case.

    The truth is… when you start to know women for what they are, those who were born and raised beta, like me (and proud of lol), lose their purpose in life, become nihilists.

    Men have to recover theirselves for all the deception, the hate, the betrayal that feel and understand and accept that they are alone, embracing independence is the only way to do it. Hookers, sluts, game, … Ok, lets look first inwards. Heal yourself, be proud of who you are, stop needing women and then you can decide if you prefer to game or to pay a hooker.

    1. After all, when you get to the point of depedestalizing women completely, what’s the point of gaming women and not just calling a hooker? It saves time and everyone knows that time is money.

      Why stop there? Would it not be more practical to simply avoid the cost and avoid any legal entanglements of prostitutes and just jerk off to porn?

      Shouldn’t porn be preferable to hookers?

  78. @bp

    What kept hypergamy under control

    My point wasn’t if hypergamy was kept under control or not. It absolutely was in early civilized society which is what allowed betas to have wives. It’s whether it was being bred out. It wasn’t. Just because society was suppressing those evolved behaviors doesn’t mean it was breeding them out. In fact, simply suppressing them just papers over them.

    If you wanted to eliminate evolved hypergamous behavior in women, you’d have to engage in society-wide eugenics and breeding. I find the idea morally reprehensible, but I know it’s the only way to remove it if society wanted to.

  79. “Why stop there? Would it not be more practical to simply avoid the cost and avoid any legal entanglements of prostitutes and just jerk off to porn?
    Shouldn’t porn be preferable to hookers?”

    Prostitution is not forbidden in my country (I am from Spain). On the other hand (literally), masturbation does not feel the same as real sex.

    So, leaving romantic prospects aside, and the need of aceptance from others too, the most practical option is going for a hooker.

    I keep gaming, and don’t pay for sex usually, but honestly, I think it is because the inner beta keeps giving me trouble. It’s hard to disregard the notion that your value depends on the aproval of women. I still need to feel that women choose me…

    In any case, gaming or not, I can’t imagine any future with a woman on my side. Not anymore. But I don’t like the MGTOW term, i prefer calling it common sense.

  80. I believe the root of all evil is coeducation (OK, exaggerating a bit here). Blue pill indoctrination is not mere indoctrination through media and ideology. It’s also lived out in the form of coeducation. Coeducation trains boys to think that women are not just their equals, but their equivalents—one substitutable for another. When I was young this was my exact instinct. I wanted to treat girls and relate to them the exact same way I did with my fellow boys. It was the way institutions treated us that encouraged me in this.

    The root of all beta behavior is “mixed company.” Watch any group in mixed company these days, boys hanging out with girls. At the outset, when we were younger, we were instinctively drawn to the company of other boys. Girls enter the picture and destroy that—above all, they destroy the fellowship between men. Now we are all vying for them. Now everything is about what girls like and don’t like. That’s why they like showing up in the first place. This dynamic is playing out repeatedly all over the culture. Hence tech nerds, video games, Gamergate. Most people find it inexplicable why these nerds are so incensed at girls joining their shit. Indeed, it is inexplicable on blue pill territory.

    Now when you watch that mixed group, note that the men have no choice but to conform their behavior to female expectations—basically to soften up, act faggy. I always feel like kind of a fag when I have to socialize with women on “equal” terms. This is not an accident. If you’re “socializing” with or “hanging out with” girls, you are being a beta. Period. If you think it would be inappropriate to be running some kind of game with these girls as often as you are around them, you would be right. You are supposed to act normal and docile and polite. You got into it because you sensed a vague opportunity for pussy. And maybe there’s some truth to that. But the problem is the frame. This is how people end up in all the beta relationships that eventually go sour that we all know about. They start off on a false pretense of equality that derives from their point of origin. Mixed company.

    Usually you’re never going to get to that pussy. But in the meantime you’re spending all your time as a eunuch. It’s no accident that the “gay friend” has become an archetype. That’s because the gay friend *is the archetype.* One might even go so far as to say: all friends are gay.

    Coeducation extends this dynamic to your every waking moment. You are now surrounded by girls—in sweatpants, chugging beer, disgusting shit like that, pretending to be boys. Or you are sitting across a library table from them while trying to read a Supreme Court opinion on the legality of detention of enemy combatants. Man was not made to focus and excel in these conditions.

    The sheer omnipresence of girls in environments where they do not belong forces men to turn beta in order to accommodate them. I’ve been trying to figure out how other men can stand their presence. I can’t spend all day wanting to fuck them, but I do. That is my natural response to being in the presence of a nubile girl. I think the answer is extremely telling. At the higher echelons of our elite today, there are only two types who succeed: women and eunuchs. We are developing a growing eunuch class. The men who really excel are those with the lowest virility, the ones who can stand this shit and sit at a desk 10 hours a day across from a 23 year old in a crop top and actually get shit done. The other solution men use is masturbation to pornography. Instead of channeling this outrageous and abnormal stimulus into actually fucking—which would immediately solve the tension—you go home and jerk off. I found all the time that I would show up at home weirdly horny with no particular explanation. It’s because I spent the entire day fiercely repressing my natural desire to fuck all these girls inexplicably sitting around me in crop tops and tights while I try to work. It’s not about being a voluntary celibate; any man has to get shit done during the work day.

    The problem is, masturbation is beta. It makes you weak and saps your virility. I’m speaking from my own experience. Stopping masturbation and porn is like unplugging from the fucking matrix. I only noticed the absurdity of coeducation when I stopped doing it. We are all self-medicating with porn.

  81. MGTOW plus avoiding women absolutely is too much for me. But in general the idea of MGTOW is very logical to me, especially in our times today!

    Generally spoken, i think its very important that men play with their rules…not with the rules of women.
    And to be honest, PUA might be interesting to play from time to time. But in my opinion PUA is nothing else than playing with rules of the women.

    And when i read here, how some men spend so much energy and dedication to do that PUA-thing……. Thats really crazy!!
    Think about where they would be in their career/Business, when they would have used that dedication, effort and energy for career/Business instead of playing entertainer for useless bitches!!!!


    Great Topic, Rollo…..once again!!!!

  82. @ChocDoc: thanks!

    I couldn’t agree more with Vulpine. Although honestly I think it might require even less magnanimity on the part of a playa. The damage is wrought not by dudes who are actually chasing and getting laid, since the fact that you pulled it off (if you did) means that you were playing within your reach. Sure, you win some you lose some, but that’s not going to do social damage. The problem is the hundreds of thousands of ego strokes some dudes are giving away for free by giving attention in return for…nothing. In other words it’s all the dudes bidding, who don’t actually have the cash to win the auction.


  83. On “the patriarchy hurts men too”: “This social convention is really a form of marketeering; selling a solution to a problem it created itself.”

    This gets to the utter perversity, the fucking chutzpah, of feminism in its current state. Doubling down, giving even more fucked up answers to the first generation of problems themselves wrought by a prior round of feminism.

    One of the things that I’ve noticed that almost kind of hurts me because it’s so sad is, every time I bring up lifting weights with male friends, they can’t talk about it with a straight face. They have to mock the very idea of lifting weights. “Oh, are you getting jacked, bro?” It’s just so depressing. We’ve somehow convinced men themselves that masculinity is some sort of risible charade.

    Then I’ll watch TV where in one show after another, every single male character is basically jerking off on the corpse of masculinity, in an infinite variety of ways. You go very quickly from merely noticing it, to being like: holy shit, this is not even subtle, it’s a massive, never-ending propaganda campaign. Even if you started out not feeling too passionately about the issue, the sheer virulence of your enemies pricks your conscience. This shit is terrifying.

  84. @Lucien


    My experience with markets leads me to be absolutely sure there’s no way to completely avoid this short of MGTOW. If you feel this should be a hard and fast rule, GYOW now.

    Minimize how much you bid it up. Get good at recognizing bidding wars and getting out of the bad ones as fast as possible. Maintain as much OI as reasonably possible. But realize that in the end that if you participate in the SMP, you will wind up bidding the pussy up. It’s just a matter of how shrewd you are at bargaining. One up the other guy by a penny, not by a hundred bucks.

    Finding an alpha mindset, once it has been fully internalized, is creating another high value man out there. It bids the price of pussy up when there’s more worthy competitors for it.

    Let’s take on the “just use a prostitute” argument as well. Say all AFCs went to prostitutes tomorrow. Now there’s higher demand for prostitutes. The price of the good ones goes up, and now AFCs with average jobs are having to take the skanks they can afford. Price of pussy has been bid up.

    It is prudent to avoid bidding it up anymore than you absolutely have to. It’s also prudent to set limits you won’t go beyond. But it is impossible to participate in the SMP without bidding the price of pussy up.

  85. There is evidence that the problem is getting worse over time, even demonstrably worse year by year. There was an article in the NYTimes about Tinder and related apps, suggesting that the introduction of these kinds of apps are rendering women flakier, flightier, and more entitled with every passing year.

    “Except for ordering their drinks, none of the people I was with that night spoke to any other actual human beings. Their erotic energy was focused on the touchscreens of their smartphones. Each of them had six or seven Tinder chats going simultaneously.”

    The article is filled with so many anecdotal confirmations of this hypothesis it is not worth quoting them; suffice it to say that the author himself seems disgusted with the whole thing. The gender asymmetry goes carefully un-noted, of course.

    In economic jargon these are called search costs (a type of transaction cost). Men bear the brunt of the search costs in the SMP. But there is a limit to how long it is rational. There is a limit to how much we can take. If we haven’t reached it yet, we will reach it eventually because it is a self-accelerating process. Even if the Sun Wukongs remain in the game, less determined competitors will opt out. And those who stay in the game are not going to enjoy appreciably better odds. The female appetite for attention is limitless. Every year there are new technologies that enable them to rake in more and more of it at less cost to themselves and greater cost to us.

  86. A real man should always act reasonable…especially when dealing with modern women.
    She always needs to feel and to know, that you are independent from her.
    For everything 3 good things she does to you, you do 1 good thing to her in return.
    I have read that kind of mindgames in here and it really works.

    I dont go out just for the sake of talking to women. If you not an alien look alike type of man, it will happen automatically that you come in a conversation with a woman.
    All you need then is just good eye contact, clever questions if she is available for what ever…and good quick escalation. There you go!

    Please stop that shit, that u have to approach 1000 women in order to reach “the next level”. All you do is to boost the ego of bitches.

    A Man has to devolop a life…..where he is the centre of everything.
    Never forget your male friends and be always open to meet new people.

    Be like that..stay like that…forever!!!

  87. @rollo

    On the other hand (literally), masturbation does not feel the same as real sex.
    Why do you suppose that is?

    Because your hand can’t submit to you while simultaneously letting you fuck it?

    1. Ahem, what I mean is, why isn’t masturbation preferable to banging a hooker if getting off is reduced to practicality and economy?

      If time is money and you can invest more of that time in yourself rather than dealing with women or buying a pro, it seems to me that jerking off is the pragmatic choice, right?

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