The Isolationists

isolation

Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:

It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.

Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.

That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.

I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.

So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

I touched on this in Vulnerability:

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.

Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.

With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.

Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.

There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.

The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.

The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.

With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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ChocDoc
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@ Lucien.

Thank you for Post! Top Comments!!!!

Novaseeker
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@DD — Would it be possible to modify the schedule so that you don’t decrease the number of nights per week but don’t have them all on each and every Friday and Saturday? That’s a pretty awful schedule, and there are other nights which would make it more equitable (that schedule gives your ex a social life and you none … I get the dedication to the kids (I am also divorced and have a kid and know the drill in terms of the prioritization), but building in some flexibility or changing the nights to allow for one social weekend… Read more »

Calvino
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@yossarian Surely you’re too modest. A man of your obvious intellect and erudition must have so much knowledge to impart. What you’ve shared here is fascinating. How does this sexy fucker role go? My question is: how do you maintain a role as the days go by, doesn’t that wear on you? Sometimes I just want to be loved and accepted for who I am but that’s obviously not possible. We’re all actors in someone else’s play. It’s tiresome to be a vehicle for someone else’s goals while they gave away the best parts of themselves to someone else long… Read more »

redlight
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@DD

are you telling potential dates you can’t make it because of your kids? Don’t, just tell them you are busy, and see the dates/plates when it works for you

Sun Wukong
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@Tony232 Yet I could also argue that such evolved behavior should have been nearly wiped-out evolutionary-wise by the force of 10-15,000 years that we know humanity spent living semi-civilized in villages and towns and cities and the like. Except that argument couldn’t be made. Evolution of a species generally moves at a glacial pace (meaning 10-15,000 years ain’t shit), and institutions like arranged marriage and the past supplication of betas by allowing them to at least get and keep a woman (regardless of her qualities) meant none of the problem qualities were being bred out. There was no way to… Read more »

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@ Sun Wukong What kept hypergamy under control was the real threat of violence or death by starvation when a woman was found in violation of the provisions and protection for sex agreement that made civilization well civil. It’s only been in last 100 years that basic survival is not the first priority of the first world and only the last 40 years or so that the rest of world has either caught up or advanced sufficiently to realistically aspire to that. A society that allows a beta to cast aside his wife for adultery without material obligation to her… Read more »

yossarian
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@ Calvino

Thank you for the reply.
It is the internet, so this “sexy fucker” maintains a Henry Miller approach. If you know what I mean…and I’m sure you do.

Novaseeker
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What kept hypergamy under control was the real threat of violence or death by starvation when a woman was found in violation of the provisions and protection for sex agreement that made civilization well civil. It was as much of an agreement among the men as it was anything else. Women were not really in a position to talk terms for almost all of history, being subject to their fathers prior to marriage. The monogamy paradigm was a “deal” among men to share the women out to a broader group of men in exchange for their buy-in, support and work… Read more »

BigAl
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I always feel like an animal who escaped his cage when we talk about these societal and cultural changes. I just stand and watch everyone stuck in the cage, wallowing in their own shit

xabi
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Sometimes it is Game that leads you to isolation. After all, when you get to the point of depedestalizing women completely, what’s the point of gaming women and not just calling a hooker? It saves time and everyone knows that time is money. When you get to the poing of don’t needing nothing to prove to anyone or to yourself, and you know you are capable of banging an average-good looking girl from time to time.. a girl which very often you despise for what she is… as hypergamous as every other girl in the world…why should you game another… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@bp What kept hypergamy under control My point wasn’t if hypergamy was kept under control or not. It absolutely was in early civilized society which is what allowed betas to have wives. It’s whether it was being bred out. It wasn’t. Just because society was suppressing those evolved behaviors doesn’t mean it was breeding them out. In fact, simply suppressing them just papers over them. If you wanted to eliminate evolved hypergamous behavior in women, you’d have to engage in society-wide eugenics and breeding. I find the idea morally reprehensible, but I know it’s the only way to remove it… Read more »

xabi
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“Why stop there? Would it not be more practical to simply avoid the cost and avoid any legal entanglements of prostitutes and just jerk off to porn? Shouldn’t porn be preferable to hookers?” Prostitution is not forbidden in my country (I am from Spain). On the other hand (literally), masturbation does not feel the same as real sex. So, leaving romantic prospects aside, and the need of aceptance from others too, the most practical option is going for a hooker. I keep gaming, and don’t pay for sex usually, but honestly, I think it is because the inner beta keeps… Read more »

ChocDoc
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lol @ Rollo wink

Lucien
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I believe the root of all evil is coeducation (OK, exaggerating a bit here). Blue pill indoctrination is not mere indoctrination through media and ideology. It’s also lived out in the form of coeducation. Coeducation trains boys to think that women are not just their equals, but their equivalents—one substitutable for another. When I was young this was my exact instinct. I wanted to treat girls and relate to them the exact same way I did with my fellow boys. It was the way institutions treated us that encouraged me in this. The root of all beta behavior is “mixed… Read more »

ChocDoc
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MGTOW plus avoiding women absolutely is too much for me. But in general the idea of MGTOW is very logical to me, especially in our times today! Generally spoken, i think its very important that men play with their rules…not with the rules of women. And to be honest, PUA might be interesting to play from time to time. But in my opinion PUA is nothing else than playing with rules of the women. And when i read here, how some men spend so much energy and dedication to do that PUA-thing……. Thats really crazy!! Think about where they would… Read more »

Lucien
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@ChocDoc: thanks! I couldn’t agree more with Vulpine. Although honestly I think it might require even less magnanimity on the part of a playa. The damage is wrought not by dudes who are actually chasing and getting laid, since the fact that you pulled it off (if you did) means that you were playing within your reach. Sure, you win some you lose some, but that’s not going to do social damage. The problem is the hundreds of thousands of ego strokes some dudes are giving away for free by giving attention in return for…nothing. In other words it’s all… Read more »

Lucien
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On “the patriarchy hurts men too”: “This social convention is really a form of marketeering; selling a solution to a problem it created itself.” This gets to the utter perversity, the fucking chutzpah, of feminism in its current state. Doubling down, giving even more fucked up answers to the first generation of problems themselves wrought by a prior round of feminism. One of the things that I’ve noticed that almost kind of hurts me because it’s so sad is, every time I bring up lifting weights with male friends, they can’t talk about it with a straight face. They have… Read more »

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@Lucien DON’T BID UP THE PRICE OF PUSSY! My experience with markets leads me to be absolutely sure there’s no way to completely avoid this short of MGTOW. If you feel this should be a hard and fast rule, GYOW now. Minimize how much you bid it up. Get good at recognizing bidding wars and getting out of the bad ones as fast as possible. Maintain as much OI as reasonably possible. But realize that in the end that if you participate in the SMP, you will wind up bidding the pussy up. It’s just a matter of how shrewd… Read more »

Lucien
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There is evidence that the problem is getting worse over time, even demonstrably worse year by year. There was an article in the NYTimes about Tinder and related apps, suggesting that the introduction of these kinds of apps are rendering women flakier, flightier, and more entitled with every passing year. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/nyregion/on-tinder-taking-a-swipe-at-love-or-sex-or-something-in-new-york.html?_r=0 “Except for ordering their drinks, none of the people I was with that night spoke to any other actual human beings. Their erotic energy was focused on the touchscreens of their smartphones. Each of them had six or seven Tinder chats going simultaneously.” The article is filled with so… Read more »

ChocDoc
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A real man should always act reasonable…especially when dealing with modern women. She always needs to feel and to know, that you are independent from her. For everything 3 good things she does to you, you do 1 good thing to her in return. I have read that kind of mindgames in here and it really works. I dont go out just for the sake of talking to women. If you not an alien look alike type of man, it will happen automatically that you come in a conversation with a woman. All you need then is just good eye… Read more »

TuffLuv
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@rollo

On the other hand (literally), masturbation does not feel the same as real sex.
Why do you suppose that is?

Because your hand can’t submit to you while simultaneously letting you fuck it?

Sun Wukong
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@TuffLuv

“Because your hand can’t submit to you while simultaneously letting you fuck it?”

Nonsense. My left and right bitches know exactly who’s running the show.

Wait…

yossarian
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With all due respect, is the obsession with weight lifting an American thing? I was maybe raised in another world, but I played mostly team sports.
In South America (for example) weight lifting is not the “manly” pursuit of choice. Soccer, baseball, etc.
I tend to run and make an attempt to box.

Lucien
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“In South America (for example) weight lifting is not the “manly” pursuit of choice. Soccer, baseball, etc. I tend to run and make an attempt to box.” Really? The Brazilians seem to be pretty into it. I wouldn’t characterize it as an “obsession.” I think that just plays into the stereotypical mindset, which is not accidentally one tied up with denigrating masculinity (all masculinity is just extreme posturing, etc.) Personally I do it because I enjoy the hell out of it. I play sports as well. But I need something I can do on my own at random times of… Read more »

Novaseeker
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With all due respect, is the obsession with weight lifting an American thing? I was maybe raised in another world, but I played mostly team sports.
In South America (for example) weight lifting is not the “manly” pursuit of choice. Soccer, baseball, etc.
I tend to run and make an attempt to box.

Very much the preferred male “type” here by women is a very cut/shredded male physique — not the kind of physique many soccer players have (soccer players have little cache here, as you know), but bigger/more muscular.

xabi
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Rollo, no need to be sarcastic. Don’t get it personal. Maybe i’ve got lost in translation. I will try again. The problem is, there are a lot of good and useful advice on PUA sites on how to attract women, appreciate that. But very little of how to manage long relationships with a redpill mindset. Yes, there is that “internalizing the alpha mindset” thing, which in my opinion looks too abstract and unrealistic. Showing no weakness during, who knows, 30-40 years? a lifetime. Tiresome, at least. And the christian blogs, no offense but, useless for an atheist like myself. The… Read more »

yossarian
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I am only asking because every single PUA blog emphasizes weight lifting. And, I agree.
I grew up with men that player soccer( everywhere) did judo and boxed. Weights came sometimes after pushups and rigorous calestenics.

I understand the attraction to building muscle. I see it. I think a lot of men would benefit just by being in shape. As in, not fat.

yossarian
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We also played rugby. Which can be pretty brutal. I mean, quite bloody. Funny how we bonded after fist fighting on the pitch…
Anyway, thank you gentlemen.

xabi
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@Rollo

what a question… the touch, the smell, the sight of a real woman body in front of you?

a prostitute is not different from any other woman

Sun Wukong
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@yossarian With all due respect, is the obsession with weight lifting an American thing? I was maybe raised in another world, but I played mostly team sports. It’s more that it’s the easiest way to carve out the body type American women want. Honestly I’m a big proponent of team sports (or some kind of cardio) and some form of lifting. Both are great for you, and both have their own benefits and drawbacks. @Novaseeker soccer players have little cache here, as you know Can confirm this. Played soccer in the US from 4-20 years old consistently. I was able… Read more »

yossarian
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That is just what I wanted to mention. On certain South American beaches the women will line up to watch you play soccer…
And yes, European, South American, and African women love guys with strong legs.

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@ DD “I’m sorry dude, I know you’re trying to be helpful, but this is exactly the kind of assbackwards horribly wrong ignorant bullshit I get from childless women who can’t possibly understand my plight.” What ignorant bullshit are you referring to? Yes, I was trying to be helpful because I’ve been in your shoes. This is not the forum to attack fellow red pillers offering realistic advice. You say you’ve been red pill for a year, but I’m having my doubts. I know you are stuck in the bitter RP phase so I will take your words with a… Read more »

yossarian
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Prostitutes are everywhere in East Europe. I mean literally for peanuts. Everywhere.
Yet, the men flood the bar and club scene. And, they are lining up for marriage.
They want the thrill of the chase. Always.

xabi
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@ Rollo well, there are other factors beyond the tactile (and other senses) experience, and the thrill of doing something forbidden, etc, i don’t know how to say it in english, but in spanish there is a word, “morbo”, which applies to all the situations, circumstances, qualities, etc, that improve the sexual attraction and excitement without knowing exactly why. for example, fucking with your girlfriend with her parents sleeping next door,. but i see where are you going at the end all is a cost-benefit analysis. i dont think technology can provide you the same experience as a prostitute, and… Read more »

stuttie
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@ Rollo – Prostitutes just seem so condescending, robotic & completely fake. I’ve been dragged into a brothel twice and both times were terrible and I swore off them forever. I have mates that use them every weekend and I really don’t get it. Maybe they think its the closest thing to negotiated desire they’ll ever get?
Me, Id rather Game & sarge, even if there is no pussy that night. I just see pros as giving up. If I really need to clear the pipes, I’d take porn any day of the week.

Calvino
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@yossarian
I confess I’m not certain. A guess: Henry Miller mythologized some of what people would consider weaknesses: his joblessness, promiscuity and emotional and financial dependence on women.

Novaseeker
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Using a gaming analogy …

Banging real life 4s is easy mode.
Banging real life 6s is normal mode.
Banging real life 8s is hard/challenge mode.
Banging hookers is cheat mode.
Fapping to porn is watching Twitch.Tv.

Sun Wukong
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@stuttie Gotta agree. Yeah OK, divorce makes things a bitch. Yes, your kids are incredibly important to you. However, I think it’s a Blue Pill as hell mindset to completely throw all of your own happiness out for your kids. It’s martyrdom expecting them to appreciate your sacrifices later. They won’t. Much like women, kids should be a complement to your life not the focus of it. Every couple that has kids then turns their focus away from each other strictly to the kids seems to doom their relationship. The couples I’ve seen that are happily married till their death… Read more »

stuttie
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closest thing to ‘un-negotiated’ desire that was

yossarian
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@ Calvino

His autobiographical narrator is a creation of fantasy and reality. Yes, he talks about himself, but boy does he embelish… So, I meant I can write a lot of bullshit, and I do. Sometimes. But, there’s a moral to the story.

Thank you for responding. This is the most educated bunch of commentators I have ever encountered on a blog. Touche my friend.

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@Novaseeker

Depressing at my age to be trying to break in to regularly playing Normal Mode. I suppose I should feel good I’ve had at least a couple Hard Mode chicks in my life even when I was Blue Pill.

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I’ve always preferred phone sex or sexting to going on porn, if it was an available option. Always. I’ve only had a few in-person “real” experiences — and I would’ve taken more of those in a heart beat had I had the chance. I read a whole bunch about porn addiction, and I don’t know. I’ve gone on a massive amount of porn and started at an early age, but the prospect of being with a real girl was always more than enough to “break” the “addiction” instantaneously for me. Anyone arguing for porn over real women: Try going 9… Read more »

xabi
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Where I live you can ass fuck a quite pretty 20-something blond romanian prostitute and then make her swallow your cum for 30€.

The return/cost marginal ratio is higher when you switch from porn to prostitution than from prostitution to unpaid women.

I hope that gives you an answer Rollo. If prostitutes costed 3000€ maybe the sustitution factor would made Game and Porn cheaper in terms of Opportunity Costs.

Softek
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As for prostitutes, I wouldn’t do it just because of the money and the fact that it’s illegal. But if it was cheap and there were really good looking ones, the only other reason I’d avoid it would be because of the ego validation, if you could call it that. Basically, not the “challenge” of getting the girl, but…for me, no substitute for being with a girl that is genuinely turned on by you and wants to fuck you. That’s the epitome. And it isn’t the “challenge” of getting there — it’s just the reality of it happening. Genuine desire… Read more »

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@Rollo The oddest thing to me has been having conversations (just months before discovering TRP) with people and saying that I don’t want to be the guy a chick “settled” for. I want her genuine desire. The reaction almost universally is “But that’s not realistic!” from men and women. That’s probably the first time I hit on the realization that the first world really is full of people who’ve subjugated their dreams and happiness to a consumerist status quo of just checking boxes in life. Marriage? Check. House? Check. Boring job? Check. Kids? Check. Life that consists of essentially the… Read more »

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Lucien
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“Where I live you can ass fuck a quite pretty 20-something blond romanian prostitute and then make her swallow your cum for 30€.” Wow. Well, when you put it like that…Jesus, where do you live? 30 euros? “Many men are simply unable to compete in the ‘chase’, so I’m reluctant to believe the challenge is a primary motivator. And for men who claim dealing with ‘unpaid’ women isn’t worth the reward (sex), what makes prostitutes more worth the effort (and sometimes risks) than relatively effortless pornography?” Here’s my analysis. The reason we are reluctant to go from real women to… Read more »

Softek
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Softek
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BTW: I was also opposed to her visiting me because I didn’t have my own place. So there was that too. re: Her. I saw that movie. Ugh. All I can say is that experiencing GENUINE DESIRE from a woman changed my life. I got some of that on the Internet in LDRs, the most serious one being a 2.5 year thing with one girl. Writing letters to each other and everything. Want to talk cringing Blue Pill? I would seal the letters I’d write to her in wax. Although I wrote a lot of dirty things and a lot… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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Her was just the standard LDR packaged up in a more palatable format.

yossarian
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yossarian
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Bingo.
The “chase” to be desired, wanted, craved, etc.
That is the quest. Prostitutes can not compete with that. It is 30 Euros. That is your worth…
No way. One would rather go pound the pavement. Find one that WANTS you….And so on.

What if a MAN did not give a fuck anymore about being desired? Is that possible? Is that the MGTOW message?

Lucien
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Lucien
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RT: Sandberg insists “choreplay is real.” http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/opinion/sunday/sheryl-sandberg-adam-grant-how-men-can-succeed-in-the-boardroom-and-the-bedroom.html?mabReward=R7&action=click&contentCollection=Technology&region=Footer&module=Recommendation&src=recg&pgtype=article What say you? Another interesting factoid: “Twenty-five percent of United States gross domestic product growth since 1970 is attributed to the increase in women entering the paid work force.” That’s a cute way of putting it. How much of that “productivity growth” is slashing wages for the same work as a result of increased supply? An under-discussed topic: the role of feminism in generating social inequality and, in the long run, oligarchy. Come to think of it it’s no accident why Sandberg is engaged in this enterprise; it will probably redound to her… Read more »

xabi
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@Rollo I agree. Everyone needs human connection, and I don’t believe anyone who says otherwise. But i don’t think that the prostitutes argument proves anything. It depends, but they may respond only to a physiological urge, that needs to be resolved. Furthermore…the desire is a complicated subject. Sexual desire can be based on domination, validation, … and in both cases be expressed in opposite ways. I can see the prostitutes giving a huge sense of domination to the client. He pays, he decides what to do. Where, how much time, how much she moans, shut up, not that way, etc..… Read more »

TuffLuv
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Her proves that even technological bitches are hypergamous.

Gonna feel like shit when your first bitchbot dumps you for a cad.

Badpainter
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Badpainter
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Lucien – “And for men who claim dealing with ‘unpaid’ women isn’t worth the reward (sex), what makes prostitutes more worth the effort (and sometimes risks) than relatively effortless pornography?” Ooh ooh I know this one! One word: honesty. Or to complicate that, there is zero uncertainty about what the transaction is and why it’s happening. No ambiguity, no questioning of motives, no uncertainty about anything. It’s very liberating. Now we all know the whole routine is an act, and there is no desire on her part. So what? Given the ability of women to fake things does it matter… Read more »

sjfrellc
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In regards to weightlifting, there are several reasons why it is a good thing for a man to pursue. Strength is key attribute which makes a male masculine, and makes him complementary and a polar opposite to a woman (feminine and needing protection in a pre-civilized world). Weightlifting, including powerlifting (as opposed to simple muscle building) gives a man strength. He can feel it and others can see it. Put two men next to each other–one that lifts and one that doesn’t. The one that lifts will look over and have inner game that he is stronger than the other.… Read more »

sjfrellcyo
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@ Rollo “What I’m saying is that the even the more isolationist MGTOWs still want that human connection. They want real desire.”

That is a huge key feature for me. Real desire from a woman. In a LTR and married man game, the kiss of death is a partner’s contempt. The holy grail for a man is the woman’s real un-negotiated desire. Red pill awareness and good game if mastered can accomplish this. Mastery is important.

Novaseeker
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I suppose the distinction is the degree of effort/skill required — easy to hard to cheating (just buying it “pay to win”) vs just watching others play the game (porn). Kind of a sliding scale. I think there is also the human contact element, although I can’t imagine that is so great with a hooker (I have never patronized one, although I have been propositioned by a few).

stuttie
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stuttie
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Pros are legal where I live. In fact the suburb I live in is brothel mecca.

I’m not a very cashed up individual – I’m a tradesman living in the 5th most expensive city in the world.

So maybe if I had access to unlimited funds and could fuck high-class hb9 hookers a couple of nights a week, I might change my mind.

Still, I’d rather my hb7 plates un-negotiated desire than a hb9 moan and groan fake oooo’s and ahhhh’s at me whilst looking at the clock on the wall.

freebird
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“MGTOW gets nothing and becomes a White Knight Mangina frustrated chump beta orbiter. ” This is a direct inversion of reality. My point is that MGTOW are no longer giving out free labor or free anything from the friend zone. Take your 80/20 rule: If the unsexed %80 quit paying energy into the system,the cost of doing business increases %400 to you so called alpha winners. If you’re at max capacity payout already this means you lose your woman,you would need 4 women (plates spinning) to keep one. This is why all the butthurt here,you are finally paying retail prices,just… Read more »

stuttie
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stuttie
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and give her $500-1000+ pending quality

freebird
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freebird
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Fleshlight>pussy

freebird
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freebird
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“What I’m saying is that the even the more isolationist MGTOWs still want that human connection. They want real desire.”

Real desire for what?
Being a better utility?
No thanks.
Right in the heals of ‘real’ desire’ always comes the rejection nuke from orbit+moral panic=creep labeling.
My one alpha buddy had a divorce where his biotch made false accusations about him molesting his daughter+DV against her.
$30,000 later he was exonerated and now chases fatties.
a REAL MAN ALPHA
willing to pay ANY price
real desire,again?
No thanks,again

sjfrellc
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sjfrellc
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Rollo. You are funny. I get your fitness testing. I’ll behave myself. Thanks

freebird
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freebird
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Well ok. Rollo does have a way of winning by attrition,and he has worn me down over the years. I do have a real desire to undercut the corrupt institution of marriage by fucking one housewife at a time. This is very easy to do,because not only are they pre-disposed to do so,but also that no man can hold frame indefinitely. Like Jim Morrision’s backdoor man,the little girl knows what the men do not understand. Ya see,I avoid commitment altogether,and the police State has already conditioned men not to take violent action against cuckholdry. It’s a total win-win situation for… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Ah, it’s the guy that doesn’t understand economics again.

@freebird

You seem kinda mad, bro. Did you get lost going your own way and end up here? I’d be mad too. Having no sense of direction must be frustrating.

Hobbes
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Late to the convo- as always, so many awesome, thought provoking comments. Love this place. Glenn had some interesting points I’d love to see responded to more- alot for the MGTOW/MRA shaming does sound suspiciously like the FIs shaming language. I don’t care if what path a man decides to take once they become RP. So long as men become red pill, it’s good. What I reserve my ire for is BP men. They are, to be a bit dramatic here, the enemy. It is them who pass the laws, drive up the price of pussy, and enable our current… Read more »

Hobbes
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BTW Rollo-Congrats! I know what I’ll be kicking back to read after this semester is over and done with!

The Diplomat
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The takeaway for me from this whole conversation has been that the vast majority of the visible element of MGTOW are exactly what I posited earlier—a pissy, butthurt covey of broken-winged birds that are still choking on the BP and can’t seem to muster up enough sand to swallow the RP whole. The world has always been generously peppered with this type of lone-hamster and will be for the foreseeable future. I wish both them and their cabins of solitude godspeed. What I find most annoying about them is that (almost) all of them visiting here vociferously claim to be… Read more »

Tam the Bam
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“Jesus, where do you live? 30 euros?”
Lucien, the boy’s not lying. Going rate for Quality (cough cough so I am reliably informed), and it’s very far from illegal (until they can figure out a way to put VAT on it). But it’s not an artistically fulfilling project.
Although to be fair, it’s wa-ay more cost effective in satisfaction terms than a Premier League season ticket. Word t’ th’ wise ..

Lucien
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Lucien
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“The real “breakdown in the deal” isn’t between men and women, per se, but between men, in terms of spreading the sexual wealth. The reason is that the men who would be sexually wealthy have no need for the support, efforts, work, etc., of the men who would be sexually poor, so they can cut them off from sexual “subsidies” like enforced monogamy, without society collapsing in total due to the degree of prosperity, which provides a buffer of significance.” This, by the way, is totally brilliant. This is exactly my reading of the situation. When I was in college… Read more »

melmoth
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@wolf

If you’re quoting the guy from Spain. I think he said just the opposite. I think you misquoted him.

melmoth
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@yossarian, In Asia it’s the same. Even Taiwan and South Korea have booming P4P industries and have for a long time. It’s more discreet than Thailand etc. But there is a lot going on, hidden away. ‘Face’ is huge here and working girls would keep it well hidden. And yeah, the guys still go to clubs too. I think it’s because it’s two different things. Clubs are fun, drinking, friends, chasing. The hidden P4P is for urges. I think a lot of guys engage in both worlds. I worked with the most squeaky clean, conservative, mild Chinese dude once. BP… Read more »

RedJoker
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@xabi

“what i’m curious about is what an alpha like you gets from exposing himself to the risks of divorce.”

“Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.”

ChocDoc
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@ Lucien: “The real “breakdown in the deal” isn’t between men and women, per se, but between men, in terms of spreading the sexual wealth. The reason is that the men who would be sexually wealthy have no need for the support, efforts, work, etc., of the men who would be sexually poor, so they can cut them off from sexual “subsidies” like enforced monogamy, without society collapsing in total due to the degree of prosperity, which provides a buffer of significance.” It’s absolutely correct to say that the contract is between elite men and all the other men. One… Read more »

ChocDoc
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ChocDoc
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Look at this youtube video…..a new modern way to control the mass of men

Softek
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Softek
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I do notice that when I don’t masturbate or go on porn, even for as little as a few days, my mentality starts to shift. Your brain on porn dot com explains a lot of that. It could be that regular high speed Internet porn use does affect us on a very real physiological level, perhaps the most significant thing being a drop in dopamine or decreased sensitivity of dopamine receptors. I got paranoid about that. And that paranoia’s gone on and off. I’ve gone between using porn every day to not using it for months straight, back and forth.… Read more »

Novaseeker
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Novaseeker
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One of the broader stories about the shift away from industrial capitalism is that elites no longer need the masses to work in their factories. They can still use the women, because they’re women—but it’s the men, in particular, they have no need for. @Lucien — Yes. This started to happen with factory automation a few decades ago and then sped up with the mass exportation of industrial jobs, generally, coinciding with the rise of the “service economy”. That service economy, of course, makes Richard Florida’s numerically small “creative class” wealthy (to varying degrees … at least economically well-off, if… Read more »

The Red Baron
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The Red Baron
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Lol more gynocentric virgin shaming from PUAs and wannabe alphas, Rollo’s solipsism is astonishing – I am starting to lose lotta respect for him but alteast he is (pretending?) to try and keep an open mind..guys like Bar Bar and Stardusk have left these PUA clowns in the dust and are light years ahead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNttiuddy6E MGTOW is a serious threat to game blogs, website clicks and book sales revenue..I am seeing a concerted effort to discredit it, although I think it is a very small part of the manosphere and should not threaten ‘alphas’ looking to be sexually validated from… Read more »

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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we are all different biologically and have different interests, basically MGTOWs have put the importance of ‘game’ in the right perspective to ones life.

Yes, yes, I’ve heard it all before, “No no no, we have the correct interpretation of the bible. Don’t listen to those other guys..”

Rational thought is your only salvation child, not any pet theory or youtube figurehead.

Hobbes
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@TheRedBaron- that is a powerful video and a very well made argument. I have to admit- as someone who believes and practices Game, who doesn’t feel like he has a horse in this race, since I don’t really label myself in any one camp- the most rational and well made arguments here are coming from the MGTOW group. Especially when you realize that MGTOWs seem to embrace the idea of getting laid. How much of a buffer can it be to rejection when you are still willing to perform, but only under your own self defined rule and limits? I… Read more »

The Red Baron
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@Hobbes you are doing it right, be sceptical of everyone’s arguments whether youtube messiahs or best-selling authors and think for yourself mate. We can recognise some individuals are right more often than others without forming a cult worshipping movement around them. Also continue to not label yourself..just enjoy this fight with popcorn in hand. Remember people who disagree with you will (often unintentionally) ridicule your manhood or manipulate your sense of honour and even use dissuasive definitions like beta, isolationist, asexual, misogynist and so on. Civilisation (through trial&error) has found a way to yoke the max out of male utility… Read more »

Vulpine
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Vulpine
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MGTOW is simply men putting their money where their mouth is. That is, “voting with our actions”. Don’t like what is being sold? Vote with your dollar: spend it elsewhere. Don’t like the weather? Vote with your feet: move to where the weather is better. Don’t like the common values/morals/ethics? Vote with your mind: stand by your own convictions. Don’t care for modern women’s antics? Vote with your cock: fuck only the “ideal” ones. I do what I do because I want the solace, spiritually, intellectually, and morally, of knowing I’m not the problem (not only with women, but also… Read more »

Hobbes
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There does seem to be a sort of circular firing squad thing happening here. One thing about women is that they will band together from all ideologies and classes to support each other when it’s in their own perceived self interest. We seem to be doing the opposite. A divided house will not stand. If there is one common denominator in all the factions of mens groups its this- we want a return to power.. be that power sexual, legal or self determination. Maybe we can start there. Maybe the deeper understanding than mgtows seeking “buffers” or puas being “pussy… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Rollo- granted on some of the points, but a pox on everyones house as far throwing each other under the bus is concerned. PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs- it seems everyone is willing to throw each other under the bus. It’s disingenuous to present that as solely an MRA issue. Hell PUAs will throw you under the bus for a lay. As to the point of MRAs and equalism, I agree, its a problem. But it’s not like PUAs, you or anyone else in the RP manosphere has any good ideas on putting that genie back in the bottle. As we all… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Rollo- Whoa, just realized something.. took a minute to sink in. You state that MRAs state that “MRAs are not PUAs” but isn’t that just basically the truth? a truth chosen by PUAs themselves? PUAs distance themselves from MRAs, if PUAs, MGTOWS and MRAs stood together then we could hold them to that standard, as well as holding them accountable to accepting donations etc from BP sources. You cant exclude yourself from a group then expect solidarity with them, or to have influence with them. Just as you can not deny resources and aid to a group then deride them… Read more »

Novaseeker
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There will never be “unity” among the various subspheres of the manosphere — MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, TRPers, Trads, etc. The reason is that they all want different things. Yes, they share a dislike of the current system, but that isn’t enough for unity — their takeaways about the current system, and what is the solution, are very different from each other, and therefore there will always be tension between them, and people making distinctions and deciding where they fit (and where they don’t). This is why I’ve always viewed the manosphere as a clearing house of ideas, rather than anything… Read more »

Lucien
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Lucien
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“There will never be “unity” among the various subspheres of the manosphere — MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, TRPers, Trads, etc. The reason is that they all want different things.” I don’t know if I believe this. “it’s, in fact, normal for men to trash each other in this way — it’s how we operate.” Is this how men operated when the Allies stormed Normandy? Men band together when there is good reason. Loyalty is a male virtue. I think there are differences of emphasis between these groups but they are slight. As for the problems with MRAs: yes, egalitarian equalism is… Read more »

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