The Isolationists

isolation

Pandora at Sosuave has a conundrum for us to solve today:

It seems there are two contradictory schools of thought on dating:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. Im not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

2.) The other argument is that you should not be indifferent at all. This school of thought says that dating is purely a numbers game. Its similar to sales. The more women you meet the higher the likely hood of one of these women liking you. The more approaches you do the more lays you get. Simple statistics. This school of thought is the opposite of indifference. This is the way i personally go about dating and i have had mediocre results. This is represented by the NEXTING mentality.

Not sure which one to choose or which one is correct. I do know that i am tired of being a slave to vagina. I do OK but it takes a ton of work to get one mediocre lay. Its not good for your self esteem either. Being rejected or toyed with mentally is unhealthy for your psyche. Most of my friends are also slaves to getting laid. Roosh V made a post about how ” His Boner is his master”.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

Before we get down to nuts and bolts here let me address this last part first. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” life. God forbid you reach fulfillment in life. The human state is one of a perpetuated discontent, and so long as that discontent is constructively pursued, this is a good thing. When anyone presents you with a plan or an abstract for life fulfillment, understand that they are selling you something based on the very human want for a better life.

That said, the rest of the question makes for some interesting debate. I often read a common thread in the manosphere about how men should develop some mental disposition of “outcome independence.” I understand the sentiment and why it would be beneficial for any guy to simply shrug his shoulders and say “either way, yes, no, I’m good with it”, but what this really boils down to is another indirect Buffer against real rejection.

I’ve read some ‘life coaches’ rattle off something similar. The idea is that if you put yourself out there, just by doing so, a woman will appreciate the inherent risk of rejection in your approach and at least give you merit points for trying when she does reject you. It’s a flawed idea because it presumes the women you’d approach would have any capacity to recognize that risk, much less reward the effort. It presumes that women would have that rational insight in the moment and think “well, he must have confidence for just trying to hit on me” and add that to some subconscious list of pros and cons for accepting or rejecting him.

And of course when it comes to light that the majority of women don’t have any concept of the approach-risk appreciation they’re supposed to have, that’s when a guy is told he’s hitting on the wrong kind of woman – they’re not the “quality” women they should be risking themselves with.

So the next deductive step becomes one of insulating oneself against that rejection preemptively. Thus, outcome independence becomes not just a mindset, but also a (misguided) Game strategy. Therein lies the conflict; is outcome independence who you are or is it a strategy disconnected from yourself which you rely on to Buffer rejection?

I touched on this in Vulnerability:

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

In a larger scope, there is no real outcome independence. Even making the effort to adopt that IDGAF mindset is itself an investment in an outcome. If you were truly indifferent to the outcome of a situation there would be no discussion about it.

Being truly indifferent to whether or not a woman accepts or rejects you implies a disinterest in that woman’s interests in you. There are certainly ways to insulate oneself against a negative outcome, but outcome independence is not Game itself. You will learn more from your failures than from your successes.

With that in mind Pandora raises some interesting propositions here:

1.) You hear from one side of the argument to pursue your interests in life and women will come to you. This is what the MGTOW movement espouses. I’m not sure if men can even be totally indifferent to the power of pussy. But some believe the total indifference is the key to a fulfilling love life. I have found that if you are indifferent then you will get nothing and be celibate. This doesn’t sound very good.

I think for the most part this want for indifference gets pushed to extremes. As I’ve stated many times, a woman should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. However, that doesn’t mean a complete dissociation from women is healthy. For a woman to be a complement to your life you’ll need interact with, and understand the nature of, women.

Roissy summed this position up well in the 16 Commandments of Poon:

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

What this commandment doesn’t presuppose is that there isn’t a woman in a man’s life to be superseded by his mission. It’s not all mission, no woman. The MGTOW branch of the manosphere is made up of a diverse set of guys. From my experience not all MGTOWs are interested in complete indifference to women; most would be happy to have women be interested in them enough to make an effort to associate themselves with them, they just don’t see the point in making a direct effort to make those connections. Others simply resign themselves to isolation and meeting their physical needs with porn or escorts while they ‘enjoy’ life and pursue their own interests absent of women.

There is an inherent problem in this latter MGTOW preference, they build a fortress around themselves:

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

You cannot entirely remove yourself from the Game. You can cede the governance of your participation in intersexual dynamics to whatever or whomever you think may control it, but you cannot recuse yourself from its influences. This is a foundational truth I think some MRAs and the more isolationist MGTOWs believe they can in some way buffer for themselves. They believe that not playing the Game is a preferable situation to “dealing” with the means and efforts necessary to “succeed” with women.

The natural progression then becomes one of self-affirmation in the belief that they’re not ‘dealing’ with women, and any guy who is is little more than a slave doing the bidding of women by even his interest in applying an effort to understand and interact with them. Even the most marginal effort becomes ‘pussy begging’.

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

The problem with the ‘pussy begging’ rationale becomes one of defining what degree of interest a man ought to have with women. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; the women who accommodate this level of (dis)interest become ‘quality women’ while those who don’t align with that impression serve as convenient proof of their isolationist belief. The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.The logic then becomes circular.

The opposite extreme, and one intersexual isolationists like to promote, is that it’s all a numbers game with regards to any “success” with women. If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall something will stick. Isolationists would have us believe that even what sticks is rarely worth the effort (sour grapes), but if you play the game often enough what you get is due more to persistence than any real accuracy of applied Game.

So is it ” Pursue your interests in life and women will take care of themselves” vs ” Go out and do the field work”..which one will lead to a more fulfilling life?

I’d say a measured balance of both. I don’t believe for a moment that any man is functionally indifferent to the influence of women. Men are the True Romantics; we want our idealistic impression of love to be impossibly reciprocated. We look for ways to buffer the frustration of trying to make our concept of love and female acceptance fit women’s when we don’t understand that each sex adheres to separate ideals. Outcome independence, isolationism, are ways some men think they can enforce our ideal as the standard for women.

With the Feminine Imperative in social ascendance women enforce a Hypergamous ideal that imbalances intergender dynamics, but that doesn’t mean men are powerless to effect their own interests and draw women into men’s Frame. The solution isn’t one of ‘taking all your toys and going home’ to wait for women to come around to appreciate men. It’s going to take a learned interaction.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited. Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with. I always stress the importance of Frame control – it’s the first Iron Rule of Tomassi – but this presupposes you have command of that frame to begin with. She enters your reality, you don’t enter hers, but you must have a reality a woman wants to enter into before you can maintain it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

413 comments on “The Isolationists

  1. @TuffLuv

    “Because your hand can’t submit to you while simultaneously letting you fuck it?”

    Nonsense. My left and right bitches know exactly who’s running the show.

    Wait…

  2. With all due respect, is the obsession with weight lifting an American thing? I was maybe raised in another world, but I played mostly team sports.
    In South America (for example) weight lifting is not the “manly” pursuit of choice. Soccer, baseball, etc.
    I tend to run and make an attempt to box.

  3. “In South America (for example) weight lifting is not the “manly” pursuit of choice. Soccer, baseball, etc.
    I tend to run and make an attempt to box.”

    Really? The Brazilians seem to be pretty into it.

    I wouldn’t characterize it as an “obsession.” I think that just plays into the stereotypical mindset, which is not accidentally one tied up with denigrating masculinity (all masculinity is just extreme posturing, etc.) Personally I do it because I enjoy the hell out of it. I play sports as well. But I need something I can do on my own at random times of day in conjunction with my schedule, and indoors, in conjunction with the fact that the weather is always fucked in the Northeast.

  4. With all due respect, is the obsession with weight lifting an American thing? I was maybe raised in another world, but I played mostly team sports.
    In South America (for example) weight lifting is not the “manly” pursuit of choice. Soccer, baseball, etc.
    I tend to run and make an attempt to box.

    Very much the preferred male “type” here by women is a very cut/shredded male physique — not the kind of physique many soccer players have (soccer players have little cache here, as you know), but bigger/more muscular.

  5. Rollo, no need to be sarcastic. Don’t get it personal. Maybe i’ve got lost in translation. I will try again.

    The problem is, there are a lot of good and useful advice on PUA sites on how to attract women, appreciate that. But very little of how to manage long relationships with a redpill mindset.

    Yes, there is that “internalizing the alpha mindset” thing, which in my opinion looks too abstract and unrealistic. Showing no weakness during, who knows, 30-40 years? a lifetime. Tiresome, at least.

    And the christian blogs, no offense but, useless for an atheist like myself.

    The MGTOW philosophy covers that niche, they propose rejecting long term involvement with women (not being incel, or necessarily paying for hookers) and embrace selfimprovement as a way of life.

    As I see it, you don’t contradict each other, you center your attention in different time spans.

    I don’t know, maybe you can consider voicing your opinions on what you expect from a long relationship on a future entry. Not just telling us what betas like me expect from idealistic love, we all know that, what i’m curious about is what an alpha like you gets from exposing himself to the risks of divorce. Just an idea.

    Maybe you can be more constructive giving us hope in a future instead of throwing away the “can’t get laid” card. No sarcasm on my part.

  6. I am only asking because every single PUA blog emphasizes weight lifting. And, I agree.
    I grew up with men that player soccer( everywhere) did judo and boxed. Weights came sometimes after pushups and rigorous calestenics.

    I understand the attraction to building muscle. I see it. I think a lot of men would benefit just by being in shape. As in, not fat.

  7. We also played rugby. Which can be pretty brutal. I mean, quite bloody. Funny how we bonded after fist fighting on the pitch…
    Anyway, thank you gentlemen.

  8. @Rollo

    what a question… the touch, the smell, the sight of a real woman body in front of you?

    a prostitute is not different from any other woman

    1. So, there is a quality that is experientially different with a real live woman then? What if, in the future, technology created a virtual woman (digitally or physically) that provided you with the same tactile experience when you had sex with it? Would that be preferable to a ‘real’ prostitute?

  9. @yossarian

    With all due respect, is the obsession with weight lifting an American thing? I was maybe raised in another world, but I played mostly team sports.

    It’s more that it’s the easiest way to carve out the body type American women want. Honestly I’m a big proponent of team sports (or some kind of cardio) and some form of lifting. Both are great for you, and both have their own benefits and drawbacks.

    @Novaseeker

    soccer players have little cache here, as you know

    Can confirm this. Played soccer in the US from 4-20 years old consistently. I was able to easily leg press on the order of 800lbs, run 6 minute miles, and consistently outlast anyone I knew in an endurance contest. Had to wear baggy pants because pants the right size with a normal straight leg fit squeezed my crotch and thighs something fierce. I was also able to fly completely under the radar with chicks. It’s great sport for conditioning, but even better for being ignored by American women.

    Funny societal thing: people from South America or Europe always asked upon seeing my legs if I was a soccer player. Russians, however, asked if I was with the ballet. Danseurs apparently pull crazy amounts of ass in traditional Russian society. Really should have visited Russia back then and played that role up…

  10. That is just what I wanted to mention. On certain South American beaches the women will line up to watch you play soccer…
    And yes, European, South American, and African women love guys with strong legs.

  11. @ DD
    “I’m sorry dude, I know you’re trying to be helpful, but this is exactly the kind of assbackwards horribly wrong ignorant bullshit I get from childless women who can’t possibly understand my plight.”

    What ignorant bullshit are you referring to?

    Yes, I was trying to be helpful because I’ve been in your shoes. This is not the forum to attack fellow red pillers offering realistic advice.
    You say you’ve been red pill for a year, but I’m having my doubts. I know you are stuck in the bitter RP phase so I will take your words with a grain of salt.

    As novaseeker pointed out, your visitation schedule is not sustainable, is unfair and unreasonable.

    DD “I’m the only one who teaches them red pill ideas.”

    What can you possibly “teach” tiny little girls about red pill? You can use amused mastery on girls 7-8+ but a 3 year old? Come on dude.

    DD – “Yes I’m damn hot and in shape and they tell me I’m damn hot and they want to fuck me on Friday but not Wednesday.”

    Tags on yourself? If you’re so damn hot chicks be banging you on any night of the week my friend. You need to tighten your Game. Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do.

    DD – “No, it will never get better. My daughters will never get back the 1,560 nights and mornings they did not get a hug from their dad the past six years. They will never get that back and their lives are altered forever in a horrible way.”

    Your defeatist attitude, negativity and bitterness will be picked up by your kids. Yes things are altered, but you’re not dead – that would be horrible. You see them every weekend – 4 nights a fortnight is about average these days. Try supervised visits or zero nights a week like some guys I know.

    DD – “Contrast men: in the manosphere, the hated manosphere, a VERY large % of us are very self-evaluating, take the blame, blame men, say divorce is because men are not alpha enough and did not control her even though we get no support from the church, state, government, or law.”

    I don’t agree at all. Yes, we do self-evaluate here – that’s what this forum is for. Regular commenters can be open and transparent here about their own situations and get real advice from experienced RP guys. Take the blame…blame men…no, not that I’ve seen here.

    DD – “I guess I am going to have to start my own blog and write my own book, because some of you are not getting it and not taking red pill far enough.”

    Good luck with that…

    So apparently I “don’t get it” but who else here ‘doesn’t get it’?

    And what do mean when you say ‘not taking the red pill far enough’?

  12. Prostitutes are everywhere in East Europe. I mean literally for peanuts. Everywhere.
    Yet, the men flood the bar and club scene. And, they are lining up for marriage.
    They want the thrill of the chase. Always.

    1. It’s fairly obvious why women would foment a social condition that shames men for seeking out prostitutes for sex (devaluation of their agency), but again, pragmatically, why would a guy opt for ‘unpaid’ women in preference to ‘paid’ women if the result is all the same?

      Many men are simply unable to compete in the ‘chase’, so I’m reluctant to believe the challenge is a primary motivator. And for men who claim dealing with ‘unpaid’ women isn’t worth the reward (sex), what makes prostitutes more worth the effort (and sometimes risks) than relatively effortless pornography?

  13. @ Rollo

    well, there are other factors beyond the tactile (and other senses) experience, and the thrill of doing something forbidden, etc, i don’t know how to say it in english, but in spanish there is a word, “morbo”, which applies to all the situations, circumstances, qualities, etc, that improve the sexual attraction and excitement without knowing exactly why. for example, fucking with your girlfriend with her parents sleeping next door,.

    but i see where are you going

    at the end all is a cost-benefit analysis. i dont think technology can provide you the same experience as a prostitute, and prostitutes dont give you the same experience as a woman that you gamed…

    but dont be naive, prostitutes enjoy sex like everyone. you would be very surprised how little that difference is

  14. @ Rollo – Prostitutes just seem so condescending, robotic & completely fake. I’ve been dragged into a brothel twice and both times were terrible and I swore off them forever. I have mates that use them every weekend and I really don’t get it. Maybe they think its the closest thing to negotiated desire they’ll ever get?
    Me, Id rather Game & sarge, even if there is no pussy that night. I just see pros as giving up. If I really need to clear the pipes, I’d take porn any day of the week.

  15. @yossarian
    I confess I’m not certain. A guess: Henry Miller mythologized some of what people would consider weaknesses: his joblessness, promiscuity and emotional and financial dependence on women.

  16. Using a gaming analogy …

    Banging real life 4s is easy mode.
    Banging real life 6s is normal mode.
    Banging real life 8s is hard/challenge mode.
    Banging hookers is cheat mode.
    Fapping to porn is watching Twitch.Tv.

      1. I suppose the distinction is the degree of effort/skill required — easy to hard to cheating (just buying it “pay to win”) vs just watching others play the game (porn). Kind of a sliding scale. I think there is also the human contact element, although I can’t imagine that is so great with a hooker (I have never patronized one, although I have been propositioned by a few).

  17. @stuttie

    Gotta agree. Yeah OK, divorce makes things a bitch. Yes, your kids are incredibly important to you. However, I think it’s a Blue Pill as hell mindset to completely throw all of your own happiness out for your kids. It’s martyrdom expecting them to appreciate your sacrifices later. They won’t.

    Much like women, kids should be a complement to your life not the focus of it. Every couple that has kids then turns their focus away from each other strictly to the kids seems to doom their relationship. The couples I’ve seen that are happily married till their death put each other first and the kids second. They realize that the kids can’t be happy with parents that aren’t happy.

    DD, your hard work and drive are admirable, but I think you need to let your needs be met or you’re gonna burn out. Then what will your kids have? There’s no point to any of this if your joy always comes second to everybody else’ joy, including your kids. I agree with the other folks here, and I’m saying it because I want dudes here to learn to enjoy their lives: if things aren’t working as they are and you aren’t happy with them (you sound like you really aren’t) then try to change something.

    Personally I’d look at shifting two weekends a month by a day. Don’t give up the amount of time you have right now, but take care of yourself so that your kids get the best of you. Enlightened Self-Interest is about remembering that you have to be taken care of before you can take care of anyone else. That’s been my guiding principle in discovering TRP.

    1. Now we’re getting somewhere.

      Desire cannot be negotiated. Sexual performance can, behavior can, compliance to your own desires can, but real desire, genuinely motivated desire cannot.

      You can lead a woman to that desire. You can create conditions that will prompt it, and even your resources might be a factor in that, but you wont negotiate an exchange for a genuine desire that isn’t there to begin with.

  18. @ Calvino

    His autobiographical narrator is a creation of fantasy and reality. Yes, he talks about himself, but boy does he embelish… So, I meant I can write a lot of bullshit, and I do. Sometimes. But, there’s a moral to the story.

    Thank you for responding. This is the most educated bunch of commentators I have ever encountered on a blog. Touche my friend.

  19. @Novaseeker

    Depressing at my age to be trying to break in to regularly playing Normal Mode. I suppose I should feel good I’ve had at least a couple Hard Mode chicks in my life even when I was Blue Pill.

  20. I’ve always preferred phone sex or sexting to going on porn, if it was an available option. Always. I’ve only had a few in-person “real” experiences — and I would’ve taken more of those in a heart beat had I had the chance.

    I read a whole bunch about porn addiction, and I don’t know. I’ve gone on a massive amount of porn and started at an early age, but the prospect of being with a real girl was always more than enough to “break” the “addiction” instantaneously for me.

    Anyone arguing for porn over real women:

    Try going 9 years straight without touching or being touched by a single girl even once and just using porn and masturbation as an outlet, and let me know how that works out for you.

    They say not to trust PUA advice from guys who can’t get laid.

    Well, what would someone know about “not needing sex” if they never even went longer than a year in their lives without it? If it’s never really been an issue for them? If sex was ALWAYS a regular part of their lives?

    As for the people that actually aren’t getting any sex, well, I haven’t met a single person yet who seemed perfectly okay about it.

    Not to say they can’t exist. But if it truly didn’t bother them, they wouldn’t get into a discussion about it, so we’d never know anyway.

    re: Artificial Intelligence sex dolls

    Sure. I don’t know if it would replace real women. I think the real deal would be how close technology could come to replicating real sex with a real woman.

    I don’t see how that would be anywhere near possible, at least not at this point in time. There’re so many factors and variables that are impossible to account for. It’s not only the sensory input, but how we’re reacting to it.

    I can tickle myself for some reason. It’s basically unbearable. Feels no different than if someone else was doing it. Might mean I’m crazy or something. Ha.

    I don’t know. But it’s interesting because I think the perception of “other” is a huge part of what makes sex what it is, beyond the stimulation of the genitals. Maybe if you THOUGHT you were having sex with a real woman that’d be one thing — but knowing it was a doll or robot or something would probably mess with things.

    Unless you’re a freak like me and can have imaginary conversations and tickle yourself and stuff. I guess I haven’t completely recovered since they let me out of the looney bin. Hehe.

    Anyway, with the sex doll/bot the only way to know would be to experience it. I’d say it would probably be better than regular porn though, on the basis that I like using my fleshlight more than my hands, for sure.

    Funnily enough, I’m still a virgin, so I have no standard of comparison for what it feels like to actually have sex. The blowjobs I’ve gotten though were definitely better than the fleshlight. It’s the whole experience of it. Although I get kind of narcissistic if you could call it that, and get off a lot on girls complimenting me. I’m a good looking guy with a great dick and a whole lot of bad luck being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so I haven’t had much experience. But the little I have had, the compliments were a big part of the enjoyment for me.

    Definitely enjoy the feeling of “being a man.” Like the girl feeling really turned on and knowing she really wants me. Completely different from rubbing one out to an HB10 on PornHub.

  21. Where I live you can ass fuck a quite pretty 20-something blond romanian prostitute and then make her swallow your cum for 30€.

    The return/cost marginal ratio is higher when you switch from porn to prostitution than from prostitution to unpaid women.

    I hope that gives you an answer Rollo. If prostitutes costed 3000€ maybe the sustitution factor would made Game and Porn cheaper in terms of Opportunity Costs.

  22. As for prostitutes, I wouldn’t do it just because of the money and the fact that it’s illegal.

    But if it was cheap and there were really good looking ones, the only other reason I’d avoid it would be because of the ego validation, if you could call it that.

    Basically, not the “challenge” of getting the girl, but…for me, no substitute for being with a girl that is genuinely turned on by you and wants to fuck you. That’s the epitome.

    And it isn’t the “challenge” of getting there — it’s just the reality of it happening.

    Genuine desire is the name of the game. Personally I’d rather go on porn and masturbate alone than have sex with women that didn’t have genuine desire for me.

    I’ve never gone to a prostitute though. So I can’t say for sure. All I can state is my RESISTANCE to going to a prostitute, never having gone to one.

    I can’t afford to spend a lot of money though and that would be a major deterrent for me — and if cheap, affordable prostitutes that were also attractive were common and easy to get…

    ….well, I don’t know. It’d be interesting to see if blogs like this would continue to exist. Would that really make a big difference? What would happen?

    All I can say is having experienced genuine desire from a woman, that’s the best thing I’ve ever experienced with them, and everything else pales in comparison. And has paled in comparison ever since.

    Even the LDR I was in when I was 18, which I’ve largely pushed out of mind (we never met up in person, so I didn’t consider it a relationship)…there was genuine desire there. If it weren’t for my borderline agoraphobia I easily could’ve gone out to see her and we probably would’ve fucked our brains out.

    And that was nice. I’ve always gone on porn. But the porn would always go on hold whenever sexting or anything would be available with a girl that really wanted to fuck me.

    I always got more turned on by that than any porn I ever looked at. There’s a lot to be said for that. I’ve also experienced extreme sexual deprivation in my life. And the desperation that comes from that speaks volumes not about me, but how our brains are wired.

  23. @Rollo

    The oddest thing to me has been having conversations (just months before discovering TRP) with people and saying that I don’t want to be the guy a chick “settled” for. I want her genuine desire. The reaction almost universally is “But that’s not realistic!” from men and women. That’s probably the first time I hit on the realization that the first world really is full of people who’ve subjugated their dreams and happiness to a consumerist status quo of just checking boxes in life.

    Marriage? Check.
    House? Check.
    Boring job? Check.
    Kids? Check.
    Life that consists of essentially the same day repeating over and over again? Check.

    It’s like the goal in modern society is for everyone to live in their own personal Groundhog Day. No wonder so many people are miserable in their marriages and relationships. They literally can’t imagine being genuinely desired by their partner in the beginning, much less 20 years down the road.

  24. “Where I live you can ass fuck a quite pretty 20-something blond romanian prostitute and then make her swallow your cum for 30€.”

    Wow. Well, when you put it like that…Jesus, where do you live? 30 euros?

    “Many men are simply unable to compete in the ‘chase’, so I’m reluctant to believe the challenge is a primary motivator. And for men who claim dealing with ‘unpaid’ women isn’t worth the reward (sex), what makes prostitutes more worth the effort (and sometimes risks) than relatively effortless pornography?”

    Here’s my analysis. The reason we are reluctant to go from real women to pros: it implies that you have no value as a man. If you can’t sufficiently stimulate desire in a woman, that raises questions about your value. Even if you could hide this from others, you can’t hide it from yourself. And I think it matters to your self-worth. If you’re not doing it out of desperation but something else like convenience, I think that’s different, but I wouldn’t know. You can only know that you’re non-desperate if you’ve pulled pussy recently, and if that’s true why wouldn’t you just try again or attempt an LTR?

    From pros to porn: at this point you’ve bitten the bullet on self-worth, so now it’s a trade-off between the risk and inconvenience of actually going out for a pro, and the marginal advantage of being with a live—though indifferent—body. A closer call.

  25. BTW: I was also opposed to her visiting me because I didn’t have my own place. So there was that too.

    re: Her. I saw that movie. Ugh.

    All I can say is that experiencing GENUINE DESIRE from a woman changed my life. I got some of that on the Internet in LDRs, the most serious one being a 2.5 year thing with one girl. Writing letters to each other and everything. Want to talk cringing Blue Pill? I would seal the letters I’d write to her in wax.

    Although I wrote a lot of dirty things and a lot of my letters to her were just elaborately written out stories (in cursive of course) about how hard I would fuck her and all the details and everything like that. It was a lot of fun. It sucked cause I had so many issues and was basically a complete wreck, and had no REAL in-person sex life, but it was still a connection.

    Even though it wasn’t a “real” relationship, it was still a human connection. Male-female sexual connection. And it was based on mutual desire. She definitely was turned on by me and between her and this other girl (the one who actually spent time with me in-person), I’m very familiar with getting asked to send them pictures of my dick, sending sexts, other things that indicate….yep…

    GENUINE DESIRE. Like just random messages “I love your cock” or telling me how badly they wanted to fuck me, just messages out of the blue, all these fantasies about me, etc.

    THAT is the best I’ve experienced.

    As for the whole artificial intelligence thing — the plot popularity probably continues because of guys’ desire for that genuine desire but for one reason or another, not being able to get it.

    There’s a movie called “Air Doll.” Similar kind of thing. Kind of, but much better done IMO. The sex doll comes to life.

    But it doesn’t have a happy ending, and it kind of shifts to her experience of life and is kind of a metaphor for how little time we have on earth. It focuses on that a lot more than her romantic relationship with this guy, and the general concepts of loneliness, and how it affects different people in different stages of life.

    But yeah, as far as Her goes, I think it’s all fantasy-fulfillment.

    Ever hear of “waifu” in Japanese “otaku” culture? Now THAT is some scary shit. Those guys that get pillowcases that have anime characters on them and they have sex with them or cum all over them and stuff.

    THAT IS SCARY!! I might’ve gone a long time without sex but even the LDR I was “in” with that girl for 2.5 years, and all the letters we sent, on top of regular Internet messaging and webcam chatting…….yeah. Big difference.

    Girls sending nude pics. Only happened for me with those two girls. But that was pretty awesome.

    It’s all based on genuine desire. Having experienced genuine desire from women at LEAST once in my life, and feeling how much of an effect it had on me — like oh, THIS is what I’ve been after — says it all for me. Case closed.

    Notice how even the “artificial” intelligence in movies like Her, ALWAYS seem to “come to life” and develop a real consciousness. People crave that connection and consciousness is required to have that connection. So conveniently the robots or whatever will develop humanity, and then we get those warm good feelings watching the movie, or the same heart-rending feelings we’d get if we saw a movie with solely human characters getting torn apart, etc.

    But yeah. The element of genuine desire is always “infused” into these things in one way or another. Because that’s what makes it “work.” That’s what makes it appealing.

    Nothing ever got me harder than genuine desire, anyway. I’ll be raring to go if I get a naked pic or being asked to see a picture of my dick. Whereas I could spend a half hour on a porn site and see hundreds of drop dead gorgeous knockouts and barely be able to keep my dick up because it’s so boring.

  26. Bingo.
    The “chase” to be desired, wanted, craved, etc.
    That is the quest. Prostitutes can not compete with that. It is 30 Euros. That is your worth…
    No way. One would rather go pound the pavement. Find one that WANTS you….And so on.

    What if a MAN did not give a fuck anymore about being desired? Is that possible? Is that the MGTOW message?

  27. RT: Sandberg insists “choreplay is real.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/opinion/sunday/sheryl-sandberg-adam-grant-how-men-can-succeed-in-the-boardroom-and-the-bedroom.html?mabReward=R7&action=click&contentCollection=Technology&region=Footer&module=Recommendation&src=recg&pgtype=article

    What say you?

    Another interesting factoid: “Twenty-five percent of United States gross domestic product growth since 1970 is attributed to the increase in women entering the paid work force.”

    That’s a cute way of putting it. How much of that “productivity growth” is slashing wages for the same work as a result of increased supply?

    An under-discussed topic: the role of feminism in generating social inequality and, in the long run, oligarchy.

    Come to think of it it’s no accident why Sandberg is engaged in this enterprise; it will probably redound to her benefit: not as a woman, but as a member of the corporate executive class that stands to benefit from the destruction of the family and the acceleration of consumer capitalism.

  28. @Rollo

    I agree. Everyone needs human connection, and I don’t believe anyone who says otherwise. But i don’t think that the prostitutes argument proves anything. It depends, but they may respond only to a physiological urge, that needs to be resolved.

    Furthermore…the desire is a complicated subject. Sexual desire can be based on domination, validation, … and in both cases be expressed in opposite ways.

    I can see the prostitutes giving a huge sense of domination to the client. He pays, he decides what to do. Where, how much time, how much she moans, shut up, not that way, etc.. But he has no validation. She only is there for the money. Maybe, she founds him coincidentally attractive, or at least she tries to, but he will not feel the validation, he cant be sure of what to think.

    On the other hand, an “unpaid” woman, gives you the boost of conficence, she wanted to be with you. But you can’t fully dominate the situation. You must adhere to a procedure. The Game rules. You have to be the alpha.

  29. Her proves that even technological bitches are hypergamous.

    Gonna feel like shit when your first bitchbot dumps you for a cad.

  30. Lucien – “And for men who claim dealing with ‘unpaid’ women isn’t worth the reward (sex), what makes prostitutes more worth the effort (and sometimes risks) than relatively effortless pornography?”

    Ooh ooh I know this one!

    One word: honesty.

    Or to complicate that, there is zero uncertainty about what the transaction is and why it’s happening. No ambiguity, no questioning of motives, no uncertainty about anything. It’s very liberating.

    Now we all know the whole routine is an act, and there is no desire on her part. So what? Given the ability of women to fake things does it matter what’s real and what’s not so long as the illusion is skillfully executed? If being real is such a big deal do we now have to avoid all forms of fictional narrative entertainment?

    I would say any man who wants the “real thing” and needs the “true desire” not see a prostitute, nor worry about those who do. It’s just a different set of priorities and perspectives.

  31. In regards to weightlifting, there are several reasons why it is a good thing for a man to pursue.

    Strength is key attribute which makes a male masculine, and makes him complementary and a polar opposite to a woman (feminine and needing protection in a pre-civilized world).

    Weightlifting, including powerlifting (as opposed to simple muscle building) gives a man strength. He can feel it and others can see it. Put two men next to each other–one that lifts and one that doesn’t. The one that lifts will look over and have inner game that he is stronger than the other. The one that doesn’t sees the other man as potentially stronger if a fight ensues. Weightlifing develops and inner game thing and an outer image. A lifter is a better man and also may carry a better image. There are real and imagined benefits. Just walking into a room after weightlifting for a year (even if you are no bigger) will result in better body language which is not a small matter for game.

    Just as a woman puts on makeup to look more feminine, a man that lifts weights is, and appears to be more masculine.

    There is a mindset to lifting. You can see it in yourself or others at the gym. Some guys are just putting in time, listening to music, watching their phone and taking 5 minutes between reps and yawning (I hate that when waiting for the squat rack to clear). Others are on a mission to accomplish something hard and fast and good. Training your body trains your mind to be more aggressive.

    All this talk about MGTOW, apathy and nihilism, and not pursuing women. If testosterone were higher in an individual, pursuing would be more intense (if so desired). Lifting increases T. and makes a man more masculine. Those that want to suppress their sex drive and testosterone production can always drink more than three ethanol drinks per day and refrain from weightlifting.

    And lifting doesn’t have to end up with any specific body morphology. You don’t have to end up looking too bulky. Depends on your muscle type (fast or slow twitch). 30 years ago I lifted in the first year and a half of college at Notre Dame in the Rockne Memorial gym. My partner increased his best bench press weight from 180 lbs. to 185 lbs. while my max increased from 185 to 265 during the 18 months.

  32. @ Rollo “What I’m saying is that the even the more isolationist MGTOWs still want that human connection. They want real desire.”

    That is a huge key feature for me. Real desire from a woman. In a LTR and married man game, the kiss of death is a partner’s contempt. The holy grail for a man is the woman’s real un-negotiated desire. Red pill awareness and good game if mastered can accomplish this. Mastery is important.

  33. Pros are legal where I live. In fact the suburb I live in is brothel mecca.

    I’m not a very cashed up individual – I’m a tradesman living in the 5th most expensive city in the world.

    So maybe if I had access to unlimited funds and could fuck high-class hb9 hookers a couple of nights a week, I might change my mind.

    Still, I’d rather my hb7 plates un-negotiated desire than a hb9 moan and groan fake oooo’s and ahhhh’s at me whilst looking at the clock on the wall.

  34. “MGTOW gets nothing and becomes a White Knight Mangina frustrated chump beta orbiter. ”

    This is a direct inversion of reality.
    My point is that MGTOW are no longer giving out free labor or free anything from the friend zone.

    Take your 80/20 rule:
    If the unsexed %80 quit paying energy into the system,the cost of doing business increases %400 to you so called alpha winners.
    If you’re at max capacity payout already this means you lose your woman,you would need 4 women (plates spinning) to keep one.

    This is why all the butthurt here,you are finally paying retail prices,just like a woman who has to hire a HVAC contractor instead of the ‘nice’ single guy next door doing it for her for free.

    Compredo swinehunts?

  35. “What I’m saying is that the even the more isolationist MGTOWs still want that human connection. They want real desire.”

    Real desire for what?
    Being a better utility?
    No thanks.
    Right in the heals of ‘real’ desire’ always comes the rejection nuke from orbit+moral panic=creep labeling.
    My one alpha buddy had a divorce where his biotch made false accusations about him molesting his daughter+DV against her.
    $30,000 later he was exonerated and now chases fatties.
    a REAL MAN ALPHA
    willing to pay ANY price
    real desire,again?
    No thanks,again

  36. Well ok.
    Rollo does have a way of winning by attrition,and he has worn me down over the years.
    I do have a real desire to undercut the corrupt institution of marriage by fucking one housewife at a time.
    This is very easy to do,because not only are they pre-disposed to do so,but also that no man can hold frame indefinitely.

    Like Jim Morrision’s backdoor man,the little girl knows what the men do not understand.

    Ya see,I avoid commitment altogether,and the police State has already conditioned men not to take violent action against cuckholdry.

    It’s a total win-win situation for me,at minimal cost,just pea-cocking the ‘game; yall taught me so well.

    Happy now?
    lolz butthex

  37. Ah, it’s the guy that doesn’t understand economics again.

    @freebird

    You seem kinda mad, bro. Did you get lost going your own way and end up here? I’d be mad too. Having no sense of direction must be frustrating.

  38. Late to the convo- as always, so many awesome, thought provoking comments. Love this place.
    Glenn had some interesting points I’d love to see responded to more- alot for the MGTOW/MRA shaming does sound suspiciously like the FIs shaming language.

    I don’t care if what path a man decides to take once they become RP. So long as men become red pill, it’s good. What I reserve my ire for is BP men. They are, to be a bit dramatic here, the enemy. It is them who pass the laws, drive up the price of pussy, and enable our current social dysfunction. An MRA is fighting on one front, the MGTOW is fighting on another front, as well the PUAs. What we all have in common is that women will have to deal with a man out for himself- whether its his legal self (MRA), his emotional self (MGTOW) or his sexual self (PUA). I have no beef with any of it and refuse to play the female game of shaming other men. It’s fucking BP.

    I have more respect for a RP MGTOW than BP Alpha.

  39. BTW Rollo-Congrats! I know what I’ll be kicking back to read after this semester is over and done with!

  40. The takeaway for me from this whole conversation has been that the vast majority of the visible element of MGTOW are exactly what I posited earlier—a pissy, butthurt covey of broken-winged birds that are still choking on the BP and can’t seem to muster up enough sand to swallow the RP whole. The world has always been generously peppered with this type of lone-hamster and will be for the foreseeable future. I wish both them and their cabins of solitude godspeed.

    What I find most annoying about them is that (almost) all of them visiting here vociferously claim to be full-bore RP men, and will scratch, claw and whine themselves into asphyxiation in a vain attempt to prove to the rest of us what is so obviously not true. They are more invested in their defensive posture than to any kind of honest dialogue.

    Maybe a number of them are “salvageable,” as Rollo asserted. Time will tell. Personally, I completely doubt it from what I’ve read on this thread.

  41. “Jesus, where do you live? 30 euros?”
    Lucien, the boy’s not lying. Going rate for Quality (cough cough so I am reliably informed), and it’s very far from illegal (until they can figure out a way to put VAT on it). But it’s not an artistically fulfilling project.
    Although to be fair, it’s wa-ay more cost effective in satisfaction terms than a Premier League season ticket. Word t’ th’ wise ..

  42. “The real “breakdown in the deal” isn’t between men and women, per se, but between men, in terms of spreading the sexual wealth. The reason is that the men who would be sexually wealthy have no need for the support, efforts, work, etc., of the men who would be sexually poor, so they can cut them off from sexual “subsidies” like enforced monogamy, without society collapsing in total due to the degree of prosperity, which provides a buffer of significance.”

    This, by the way, is totally brilliant. This is exactly my reading of the situation. When I was in college one of my professors showed us some statistics about feminism and certain economic variables – I really wished I had remembered them because they were stunning. But his ultimate point, though he didn’t say it explicitly, was that feminism is basically an instrument of (a certain stage of) capitalism. And the different “waves” of feminism, I believe, correspond to different phases as well. I think there is probably a correlation between 1st/2nd wave and industrial capitalism, and third wave and consumer/service capitalism.

    It’s absolutely correct to say that the contract is between elite men and all the other men. I’ve been studying the role of military affairs in generating the prerequisites of democracy and it’s a viable argument that democracy emerges when the elites need a broader population to fight for them. Hence the correlation between mass conscription, nationalistic/total wars, and the spread of democracy in Europe in the 19th c.

    One of the broader stories about the shift away from industrial capitalism is that elites no longer need the masses to work in their factories. They can still use the women, because they’re women—but it’s the men, in particular, they have no need for.

    You also pointed out the bread and circuses element—which is why I think pornography is actually a fundamental pillar of our social contract at this point. It keeps most of the men effete and subdued, ensuring that they don’t throw any wrenches into the machine.

  43. @wolf

    If you’re quoting the guy from Spain. I think he said just the opposite. I think you misquoted him.

  44. @yossarian,

    In Asia it’s the same. Even Taiwan and South Korea have booming P4P industries and have for a long time. It’s more discreet than Thailand etc. But there is a lot going on, hidden away. ‘Face’ is huge here and working girls would keep it well hidden. And yeah, the guys still go to clubs too. I think it’s because it’s two different things. Clubs are fun, drinking, friends, chasing. The hidden P4P is for urges. I think a lot of guys engage in both worlds. I worked with the most squeaky clean, conservative, mild Chinese dude once. BP guy with a girlfriend. Accidentally saw his browser bar. True accident. The guy had been on a famous Hong Kong p4p site. They do it quietly. It’s no big deal at all. It’s almost like the porn of East Asia, Eastern Europe. You do your porn. You don’t let people know or discuss it. Guys in the East visit working girls. They don’t want people to know. They’re not going to skip out on a fun Saturday night by draining their balls with a prostitute at 8pm and tucking in for bed at 9pm, thinking “Sweet. I’m not horny.”. Like guys in the US still want Saturday night for fun, chasing. Most won’t jerk it at 8pm in order to skip out on Saturday night.

  45. @xabi

    “what i’m curious about is what an alpha like you gets from exposing himself to the risks of divorce.”

    “Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
    Morpheus: No, Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.”

  46. @ Lucien:

    “The real “breakdown in the deal” isn’t between men and women, per se, but between men, in terms of spreading the sexual wealth. The reason is that the men who would be sexually wealthy have no need for the support, efforts, work, etc., of the men who would be sexually poor, so they can cut them off from sexual “subsidies” like enforced monogamy, without society collapsing in total due to the degree of prosperity, which provides a buffer of significance.”

    It’s absolutely correct to say that the contract is between elite men and all the other men.

    One of the broader stories about the shift away from industrial capitalism is that elites no longer need the masses to work in their factories. They can still use the women, because they’re women—but it’s the men, in particular, they have no need for.

    You also pointed out the bread and circuses element—which is why I think pornography is actually a fundamental pillar of our social contract at this point. It keeps most of the men effete and subdued, ensuring that they don’t throw any wrenches into the machine. ”

    I think we come slowly to the core of our problem in here.
    It always has been a men’s world…..a elite men’s world.
    And since real democracy and justice is no longer given we will slowly go back to the days where a few have it all and the rest have to fight for the crumbs

  47. I do notice that when I don’t masturbate or go on porn, even for as little as a few days, my mentality starts to shift. Your brain on porn dot com explains a lot of that. It could be that regular high speed Internet porn use does affect us on a very real physiological level, perhaps the most significant thing being a drop in dopamine or decreased sensitivity of dopamine receptors.

    I got paranoid about that. And that paranoia’s gone on and off. I’ve gone between using porn every day to not using it for months straight, back and forth.

    Real sex is the only remedy I see for myself, to be honest. And I don’t like that. But I don’t have a say in how I’m hard-wired. I’d also love to have no physical needs and just roam the earth and go wherever I want and do whatever I please, but that’s not real life.

    There are “Breatharians” who claim that they can live on nothing but fresh air. And also people that say that they can eat sunlight with their eyes and live off of nothing but the energy they get from that.

    Kind of reminds me of guys trying to completely suppress their desire to fuck women, and claim that they’ve transcended those ‘base’ desires and genuinely have no need or desire for sex at all. Or the sour grapes route — showing contempt for what they want but can’t have.

    It all sounds pathological from my neck of the woods. Men are hard-wired to fuck women, and to want to fuck women. We’re also hard wired to need food and water and to sleep. It’s just the way it is. You won’t die from a lack of sex, but you also won’t die from a starvation diet. Your metabolism will just slow down and your health will go to shit, but you’ll live. Your life will just massively suck and you’ll be more likely to die from a whole bunch of different diseases, you’ll have very little energy, likely no clarity of thought, and deal with severe depression and anxiety on a regular basis.

    We’re probably hard-wired to function optimally when we have a regular sex life. Like it or not.

    So whatever the ideology we choose to have, we have to be real with ourselves. Ideologically you might be disgusted with women’s behavior in modern society, but your dick still wants to fuck them. We have to be honest with ourselves as far as what we’re up against goes.

    I still use porn regularly to keep the frustration at bay. I’ve quit for 6 months before and focused on gaming girls — when it didn’t work out I got frustrated, gave up, and went back to porn. I was so angry after all the effort I put into quitting porn and trying to escalate with girls, and failing — so fucking mad.

    But it’s probably because that’s not all. Lately I’ve been working on myself to see if I can get through some of my childhood issues, e.g. abuse and getting molested.

    One thing I’ve been specifically focusing on is SEPARATING sex and emotions in my mind. Because of what I went through, I tend to see sex as a “solution” to issues that have nothing to do with sex. e.g. having been bullied, abused, etc. Although the being molested thing does pertain to sex, in that I feel like I was unfairly cheated out of having normal experiences and having my earliest sexual experience be with a man against my will — that kind of fucked me up a bit.

    So that keeps me in isolation mode. I get pissed off just thinking of other people having a normal sex life, and all it makes me want to do is shut myself away, because when I get in that mode, anyone who has a girlfriend/boyfriend and has a normal sex life as I perceive it pisses me off so much I can hardly stand to look at them.

    HOWEVER — that’s what I mean about making a DISTINCTION between sex and unrelated issues. Even being molested, for me, is actually unrelated to sex — sex with a woman that wants me and I want to be with has nothing to do with getting violated and taken advantage of, which is what happened to me as a kid.

    They’re not the same thing. And I think if I can deal with my separate issues and clear all that out, I’ll probably find that pursuing sex with women will be a lot easier. The times I have initiated a hookup I had a panic attack, both times, and that sucked, but my body just physiologically reacted. Auto-pilot.

    So again…making the distinction between personal issues and SEX is important. I don’t want to be throwing myself a pity-party here: I’m making a point and I think it’s incredibly important for guys to get this. Worthy of a blog post for sure, IMO —

    — making a distinction between personal issues, e.g. abandonment, rejection, from abuse in childhood or whatever — and sex, Game, etc. as far as women go.

    Part of my own resistance to TRP was having to accept that sex wasn’t the panacea I’d hoped it would be. That I WANTED it to be. Sex is just sex. Even if it’s a need, it’s still just sex. It doesn’t have to be this big Hollywood production. Looking at it as a more everyday thing makes learning Game seem easier, seems to lessen the blow of rejection, while at the same time not suppressing or repressing our desires.

    I think TRP actually gets us MORE IN TOUCH with our ACTUAL desires.

    I’m a big fan of Zen. A big tenet in Zen is to be honest with yourself and your emotions. Which also means not exaggerating them beyond what they really, genuinely are.

    TRP has helped me, anyway, get a more realistic understanding of sex, and my desire for it. I used to tell a lot of stories around it. And I wanted a ‘unicorn’ because I was looking for a solution to the trauma I experienced in childhood.

    As I’ve taken personal responsibility for dealing with my issues on my own, and SEPARATING my issues, and my dealing with them, from sex….even though I’m still pissed I currently have no sex life, it makes it easier to manage. Because having a sex life feels more achievable now that I’m not making it seem like a Hollywood production where I have to get my happy ending and compensation for everything that happened to me.

    Now it’s more like, I’m dealing with all this shit. Okay. That’s on me. It’s up to me to help myself with that. Sex is something else. Women are something else. They’re separate from my issues.

    Seeing things that way has been helping me a lot. Make a distinction in your mind. Make a separation.

    This is right in line with unplugging. I think letting go of the “unicorn” idea and the myth of “soul mates” has a lot to do with separating our personal issues in our mind from our desire for sex. I know it’s helped me a lot.

    Wanting a woman to help you with your issues and also be turned on by you is also right in line with Blue Pill “Game.” Vulnerability doesn’t work.

    I also find it’s easier for me to be more masculine the more I respect myself and my issues. I don’t have to explain shit to anybody. I know what I’ve gone through. I don’t need to justify myself or my behavior or anything. And now that I know “mystery” is a good thing to have, and holding your cards close to your chest — it makes it even easier to do, now that I know there’s more of a reward in it for me for acting and thinking that way.

    As opposed to wearing my heart on my sleeve. I’ll divulge my personal life and struggles here, but nowhere else. And especially not to women.

    That’s another “Distinction.” Knowing I like talking anonymously on here, for example, and say things I would NEVER say to other people in real life. I’m understanding how things work more and more every day.

    So yeah, still no sex life, but I’ve at least had a couple hookups since I started reading this blog. Which is tremendous, coming from absolutely Zero. And I have a feeling I’ll make more progress in the near future.

    The discussions on the topics here are helpful. This is what we do as men: understand the situation, get down to the nuts and bolts and start figuring out how to do something that’s going to actually work. It ain’t easy and this stuff is complicated. Fortunately we’re also hard-wired for dealing with complex problems like this and figuring things out and making real progress in the real world.

  48. One of the broader stories about the shift away from industrial capitalism is that elites no longer need the masses to work in their factories. They can still use the women, because they’re women—but it’s the men, in particular, they have no need for.

    @Lucien —

    Yes.

    This started to happen with factory automation a few decades ago and then sped up with the mass exportation of industrial jobs, generally, coinciding with the rise of the “service economy”.

    That service economy, of course, makes Richard Florida’s numerically small “creative class” wealthy (to varying degrees … at least economically well-off, if not exactly “wealthy”), otherwise features a lot of mediocre white collar office jobs supporting the service industry. These jobs require some education (they often revolve around writing and processing of documents, accounting and book-keeping, marketing, etc.), but the key issue is that they can be done more or less equally well by women as by men, given the right education and skillsets — that is, the “brawn” element has been removed from most of working America outside of the trades, military, first responders and so on.

    Of course, men will tend to work longer and be more ambitious in general than the women, but this isn’t always what you want for a good “line worker”. You want *some* people like this, so you can promote them to middle management and, in a few cases, higher, but otherwise you want competent, docile, obedient and mostly not very ambitious line workers. You can reward them with praise and flexibility as much as money, and this helps your bottom line. This is why corporations are filling up with women workers — they fit the bill very well as “line workers” in the service economy, happy to have their 8 to 4 gig, craving stability over ambition, eager to please, reactive to praise and very appreciative of flexibility more than they are of overtime. Great line workers, really. Better than guys, who are always looking for the next thing, angling for promotions and constantly negotiating raises, see through the bullshit of praise, don’t care much about flexibility or stability, and are looking to take your own job.

    I work in a Fortune 200 company — have for the last ~20 years now. There were always a lot of women at the company, but over the last two decades, this has only deepened. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that, at times, I will walk into a meeting and be one of 2-3 men in a room of 25 women — accountants, lawyers, marketing people, etc. Or when I am making a presentation to field staff, I’ll look around the room and see that it’s 60-70%, or more, female. This is now the norm, and it’s not just HR (HR is more like 80%+ female). The only exception is when I am among the senior execs — they are still mostly men, and only about 20-25% are women. This gets a lot of attention from feminists, who want more women at the top, but what gets no attention from anyone is how the rest of the organization (and it isn’t just my company) is becoming overwhelmingly female at all levels outside of the top leadership levels.

    When you step back and take a look, the picture becomes clearer, if you have red pill glasses on. The hierarchies are simply lining up:

    Top men (with some women)
    Women (with some men)
    Rest of the men (with some women)

    The rise of the service industry has gone hand in hand with these developments (and related ones, like the feminization of education, the hugely disparate matriculation and graduation rates at universities and so on). It’s quite true that the new economy needs less men than it used to, and is quite happy to have women be most of the line workers and middle managers. They make better (for the reasons above) workers in these positions. Of course, the “top” men (again, Richard Florida’s “creative class”) are needed to found, steer, lead these companies (with a handful of Sheryl Sandbergs in these positions, of course), but otherwise unless it is a highly technical field like programming, biotech or something like that, the service economy is a mostly female show, and that walks hand in hand with third wave feminism — it feeds on it and reinforces it at the same time.

  49. Lol more gynocentric virgin shaming from PUAs and wannabe alphas, Rollo’s solipsism is astonishing – I am starting to lose lotta respect for him but alteast he is (pretending?) to try and keep an open mind..guys like Bar Bar and Stardusk have left these PUA clowns in the dust and are light years ahead:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNttiuddy6E

    MGTOW is a serious threat to game blogs, website clicks and book sales revenue..I am seeing a concerted effort to discredit it, although I think it is a very small part of the manosphere and should not threaten ‘alphas’ looking to be sexually validated from females as it shrinks the supply of men getting in their way.

    The comment earlier about everyone thinking their experience is universal was absolutely on point – we are all different biologically and have different interests, basically MGTOWs have put the importance of ‘game’ in the right perspective to ones life. The only way to beat MGTOWs is to challenge their ‘manliness’ and redefine masculinity in a gynocentric sense.

    Rollo will actually help MGTOW grow unintentionally – I challenge him to listen to all of Stardusk’s and Bar Bar’s vids and try to debunk what they are saying. I know he spent almost a decade in the SoSuave forum to form his opinions, but Bar Bar & Stardusk add a vital perspective that men need to also hear and decide for themselves what is the best option for them).

    I wish goodluck to Rollo, I am sure he will find flaws in MGTOW philosophy and MGTOWs will be forced to revisit their ideas in order to refine them so they are consistent.

    I personally hate the label MGTOW but I have to admit their movement is idealogically less inconsistent than the looks-money-status chasing hamster wheel types found in the vocal portion of the manoshphere.

  50. we are all different biologically and have different interests, basically MGTOWs have put the importance of ‘game’ in the right perspective to ones life.

    Yes, yes, I’ve heard it all before, “No no no, we have the correct interpretation of the bible. Don’t listen to those other guys..”

    Rational thought is your only salvation child, not any pet theory or youtube figurehead.

  51. @TheRedBaron- that is a powerful video and a very well made argument.
    I have to admit- as someone who believes and practices Game, who doesn’t feel like he has a horse in this race, since I don’t really label myself in any one camp- the most rational and well made arguments here are coming from the MGTOW group. Especially when you realize that MGTOWs seem to embrace the idea of getting laid. How much of a buffer can it be to rejection when you are still willing to perform, but only under your own self defined rule and limits?
    I feel I am still where I as when I started reading this thread- respecting every mans individual choices, refusing to do womens work of shaming men for those decisions, and embracing parts of each philosophy that works for me and makes sense to me.

  52. @Hobbes you are doing it right, be sceptical of everyone’s arguments whether youtube messiahs or best-selling authors and think for yourself mate. We can recognise some individuals are right more often than others without forming a cult worshipping movement around them. Also continue to not label yourself..just enjoy this fight with popcorn in hand.

    Remember people who disagree with you will (often unintentionally) ridicule your manhood or manipulate your sense of honour and even use dissuasive definitions like beta, isolationist, asexual, misogynist and so on.

    Civilisation (through trial&error) has found a way to yoke the max out of male utility by hyperinflating the access to a female’s reproductive value and sh*tting men out from gynocentric engine of male disposability (biologically hardwired in everyone’s brains in addition to social conditioning).

    You will also like this vid from Bar Bar I feel:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT4dzJhvy-U

    I often disagree with Rollo’s, Bar Bar’s, Stardusk’s views..which is the point of openly exchanging ideas, I wish Rollo researches mgtow more so we can all get closer to the truth through open dialogue instead of burning straw men like this post did where his intellectual laziness ended up causing a lot of unproductive arguments based on misunderstanding of the concept of mgtow not to mention the time wasted.

  53. MGTOW is simply men putting their money where their mouth is. That is, “voting with our actions”. Don’t like what is being sold? Vote with your dollar: spend it elsewhere. Don’t like the weather? Vote with your feet: move to where the weather is better. Don’t like the common values/morals/ethics? Vote with your mind: stand by your own convictions. Don’t care for modern women’s antics? Vote with your cock: fuck only the “ideal” ones.

    I do what I do because I want the solace, spiritually, intellectually, and morally, of knowing I’m not the problem (not only with women, but also in a more worldly sense), but part of the solution, and certainly not contributing to the problem (bidding up the price, consumption versus production, pollution, etc.). I can’t change everybody, but I can change myself.

    There needs to be something said, here, regarding simplicity. We are spammed, constantly bombarded, with influences which sculpt our minds. If you remove all the extraneous stimuli, actively strive to isolate your will, you’ll find new clarity. “Returning to nature” serves to eliminate just this sort of unhealthy spam. Consider why you don’t see religious retreats in the middle of cities: too much distraction! Listen close: that “buzz” you hear is the sound of your inner-voice being drowned out. Instead of waiting for “God” to “grant” you “the serenity…”, like some voodoo gift of pity under the christmas tree, be a little proactive and afford yourself serenity, instead.

    Neo was looking for “the Matrix” (and Morpheus) because he knew “something wasn’t quite right”. Any dude has to come to a point where he suspects something is “off” before seeking out the Red Pill. Morpheus, an obvious MRA sort, can’t just run around handing out red pills to the masses and expect a bunch of “Neo’s” as a result. Morpheus likely would get a few purple-pillers, a few PUA’s, and some MGTOWs out of his endeavors. And, of course, there will be a few “Cyphers” that just want to re-join the blue-pill flock of sheeple. “When you see an agent, you do like we do: run.” To where? Then what?

    The movie would have been entirely different if Neo, instead of being a white-knight martyr fighting the machine, said, “Fuck this. Zion is someone else’s utopia”, grabbed Trinity’s arm, and bogarted the Nebuchadnezzar to start his own life. What if Neo felt a stronger sense of self-reliance and didn’t accept his destiny as the pre-destined one that the “Oracle”, Morpheus, and the peers on his ship shamed him into cuckholding? He wasn’t, after all, cool with the idea that he wasn’t in control of his life. But, they chipped away at him until his priorities aligned with their agendas. “Help us! Save us, Neo! You’re an anomaly!”

    Neo died relatively quickly as a result. He could’ve been like, “Peace, bitches, I got 99 problems…” and put a bun in Trinity’s oven, had some mistresses and three-ways, raised a couple red-pill kids, and lived a longer, healthier life had he decided to not be a pawn in someone else’s game. Neo didn’t need to run into the mouth of the beast: all that was needed to kill the machine was take away the power source, the “batteries”. A guy that goes MGTOW is one less battery for the machine, simply put. A drop in the bucket, you could say, but a difference none the less.

    This is a war. We are soldiers.
    MRA’s are “active duty”, MGTOW’s are standing ready as reservists.
    Both are on the same team, just with different priorities.

  54. There does seem to be a sort of circular firing squad thing happening here. One thing about women is that they will band together from all ideologies and classes to support each other when it’s in their own perceived self interest. We seem to be doing the opposite.
    A divided house will not stand.
    If there is one common denominator in all the factions of mens groups its this- we want a return to power.. be that power sexual, legal or self determination. Maybe we can start there.
    Maybe the deeper understanding than mgtows seeking “buffers” or puas being “pussy beggars” etc is seeing that where each man goes depends on where he feels most stripped of power.
    A beta AFC feels powerless in the sexual realm so he seeks out PUA
    A ass raped divorced dad is stripped of legal power over his children and family so he seeks out and becomes an MRA
    A man who feels forced to abandon his own needs and desires to service the FI seeks power through mgtow
    Each seeks power in the realm he feels most oppressed in. Each imagines that complete power in this realm will lead to freedom, but the fact is true freedom is only accomplished when a man reclaims power in every field.
    I have always raged at the fact that when women study, or opine really, on male psychology it is always painted in the darkest colors. Women do this because it is a successful manipulation of a mans self image. I think we as men have internalized this as well. But men will jump on that grenade to save his troop, men will lay down thier lives for a principle, so I never bought it. I think it’s probably closer to the truth that each faction of the manosphere is seeking a return to his natural, rightful powers of which we have all been somewhat stripped. I find it closer to the truth than saying men are just “pussy beggars” or “Losers”.

    1. MRAs are making a concerted push to get all of the manosphere under one tent. The problem with that is their tent poles are based on the misguided notion that egalitarian equalism is an ideal state between the sexes. They seem more than happy to invite the FI regulating influence of women into that Male Space because they believe the same lie that feminists have spewed for a long time – that an equal state of gender parity is in any way achievable or preferable.

      They’re happy to co-opt the elements of Red Pill awareness (the elements that ate the least offensive to their female support) the previously despised if it means they can pull in new (donating) members.

      Once the next Eliot Rodger incident happens you’ll see how quick the story will be “MRAs are NOT PUAs” and they wipe that association off on anything conveniently Red Pill.

  55. @Rollo- granted on some of the points, but a pox on everyones house as far throwing each other under the bus is concerned. PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs- it seems everyone is willing to throw each other under the bus. It’s disingenuous to present that as solely an MRA issue. Hell PUAs will throw you under the bus for a lay.

    As to the point of MRAs and equalism, I agree, its a problem. But it’s not like PUAs, you or anyone else in the RP manosphere has any good ideas on putting that genie back in the bottle. As we all sit here aware that equalism is bullshit, women are way past equalism and deep into superiority territory at this point. Simple pragmatism states that, legally speaking, equality under the courts is at least better than what we have now. I’ll admit to not reading much MRA stuff, so feel free to inform me if there is more to that argument than what I am aware of.

  56. @Rollo- Whoa, just realized something.. took a minute to sink in. You state that MRAs state that “MRAs are not PUAs” but isn’t that just basically the truth? a truth chosen by PUAs themselves? PUAs distance themselves from MRAs, if PUAs, MGTOWS and MRAs stood together then we could hold them to that standard, as well as holding them accountable to accepting donations etc from BP sources.
    You cant exclude yourself from a group then expect solidarity with them, or to have influence with them. Just as you can not deny resources and aid to a group then deride them for getting it elsewhere. That makes no sense.
    I’m not placing the blame on the current situation at PUAs feet- after all I am more about Game here than MRA or MGTOW,- MRAs need to fix their own houses.and find a message that doesn’t undermine RP truths somehow.. but so do PUAs and MGTOWs.

  57. There will never be “unity” among the various subspheres of the manosphere — MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, TRPers, Trads, etc. The reason is that they all want different things. Yes, they share a dislike of the current system, but that isn’t enough for unity — their takeaways about the current system, and what is the solution, are very different from each other, and therefore there will always be tension between them, and people making distinctions and deciding where they fit (and where they don’t).

    This is why I’ve always viewed the manosphere as a clearing house of ideas, rather than anything else. Guys come, troubled with the world and their place in it, read some things, sample some ideas and practices, and then find their way into one wing or other of the sphere, or leave the sphere altogether. This is the natural path. Yes, these guys all share a degree of discontent with the current setup, but that isn’t enough of a basis for unity among the various subspheres — they’re too different in orientation and approach. It would be good if there were more tolerance among them, but that’s wishful thinking as well — we’re all AMOGs, we all think we’re the ones who are right, in our subsphere, and so trashing the other subspheres from time to time (and it seems to happen at least once every 6-12 months in the manosphere) is to be expected. This isn’t the first, and it won’t be the last — it’s, in fact, normal for men to trash each other in this way — it’s how we operate.

  58. “There will never be “unity” among the various subspheres of the manosphere — MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, TRPers, Trads, etc. The reason is that they all want different things.”

    I don’t know if I believe this.

    “it’s, in fact, normal for men to trash each other in this way — it’s how we operate.”

    Is this how men operated when the Allies stormed Normandy? Men band together when there is good reason. Loyalty is a male virtue.

    I think there are differences of emphasis between these groups but they are slight.

    As for the problems with MRAs: yes, egalitarian equalism is false, as a vision of relations between the sexes. But formal legal equality does not imply an equalist vision across all domains of society. I believe the emphasis should be on bringing back a genuine private sphere: in other words, on undoing “the personal is the political.” Formal legal equality is consistent with a complementary vision of relations between the sexes, because the law is only one domain of life. Still, I agree, I hate the framing of the issue as “men as another victim group.”

  59. Two other things:

    Return of Kings actually has a lot of articles already on the “don’t bid up the price of pussy” idea. http://www.returnofkings.com/53875/do-your-part-to-stop-the-thirsty-guy-revolution

    But another thing weighing in favor of the MGTOW types: men who game often express contempt for women in general and the women the sleep with. Problem: shit always rubs off on you. It’s very hard to spend time in the company of people who suck, without losing a bit of yourself to it. Honestly I’ve come up to the threshold of trying to play the field at other times of my life, and just turned back—because I didn’t want to become a vain, empty, manipulative skirt chaser. Pretty much every PUA I’ve read owns up to something like this—some sort of accumulated emotional damage. This is where a response might be something about how “the red pill is bitter.” Yeah, but do you have to have a shitty life just because? There’s no easy answer. But this is a factor.

  60. Is this how men operated when the Allies stormed Normandy? Men band together when there is good reason. Loyalty is a male virtue.

    As part of a pack aligned against other men, yes. As “men per se”, no.

    Sports teams, militaries, corporations — all are competitive/collaborative male hierarchies, but the key is that they band together to defeat a different male banded hierarchy that is in competition. Men don’t band together as a *sex* or on behalf of the entire male sex — women do that (adaptive as the weaker sex, so strength in numbers and all that).

    So the prospect of uniting men together under the banner of “men”, or some kind of “male interest” per se, is extremely weak. Rather, what you will see is men separating out into different groups (different competing male hierarchies) and squaring off with each other — this is the way of men (and that’s what Normandy was, too — two groups of male hierarchies fighting it out), and it’s why we see it in the manosphere as the men *here* split off into competing hierarchies and duke it out periodically.

  61. Men think they are apex predators because they hunt every species on earth including other men.

    Women hunt men,or have men hunt men by proxy.

    I know whom the REAL apex predator is,am sensible enough to not hide my instinctive fear.

    Especially given that that Police State uses gynocentrism as it’s main rationale for violations of human rights and breeches of the US Constitution.

    You ‘fearless’ men are really just ‘stupid’ men.
    Enjoy being someone else’s lunch.

    @sun
    Is that monetarily efficient enough for you?
    Geez,even the Keynesians are not that stupid.

  62. @freebird

    Your economic ignorance is still intact, but now you’re just adding heaping helpings of bitter butthurt. Quit while you’re not as far behind as you could be if you keep talking.

  63. Anyone else notice that all this Tilikum does in comments is attack other men and declare how much better he is?

  64. So Rollo are you really fishing for comments on what is ‘genuine desire’? Are you trying to get people thinking that it is not all physical but borders on the realm of spiritual?

    Is genuine desire to sole realm of women or can this human connection be found elsewhere?

  65. The thought presented by Pandora is a fallacy, strictly speaking. He believes that there are only two possible courses of actions and leaves no options for a third perspective. Such perspective is what I will call “on the move approach” (OTMA).

    OTMA implies that a man will focus all his energy and drive to pursue his lifelong goals, and will always perform activities that
    a) make him grow as a person
    b) fulfill him
    c) make him grow wealthier (wealth comes in the form of wisdom, happiness, health, money, and time as a commodity with the ultimate value)

    While doing that, it is a fact that any man will encounter female counterparts. Being able to interact with them will offer opportunities for dating and sex.

    OTMA is probably the option with the highest return of investment of all the three, as a man will always profit from those activities where he encounters women. He attends a one-week seminar on “emotional intelligence”, meets a girl and asks her out. Regardless of the outcome, he already profited from enrolling in the seminar, as he will walk away with more than he came in.

    Also, there is no such thing as an outcome-indifferent aproach. We are human beings, not robots, and thus we are prone to all the spectre of emotions: hate, suffering, frustration, joy, bliss, happiness. Any man who asks 500 girls will eventually start feeling bad if he does not come to get decent results. In this matter, both mindsets presented by Pandora are expensive, as pussy-hunting requires a lot of effort and negation attempts against our masculine core (that is, fuck everything that has vagina, is young and slim).

    OTMA may reduce the number of women you meet, and at the same time will increase your relative probabilities of success. What do you prefer, having a 1:2 succcess rate or a 10:1000 success? Also, even if results are adverse, a man will continue making progress and growing wealthier, until his wealth will be so big that will simply collapse the CNS of any woman he meets.

  66. You should change the name of your blog to the rationalization male. You’re essentially trying to paint yourself as the god of truth who knows everything and you’ve got a bunch of cuck betas eating up every spoonful of shit you feed them, because you offer them answers.

  67. LOL misses the boat completely. We LOL at him.

    Actually read TRM and you’ll find that the commenters are among the most critical, jaded, and cynical you’ll find; prepared to disbelieve everything and everybody. They accept the writing here because the phenomena described is readily observable in everyday life, and now they know why it happens that way.

    If it didn’t hold together they would reject it out of hand and go someplace else.

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