Potential vs. Struggle
“Women don’t care about the struggle. They wait at the finish line and fuck the winners.”
Rich Cooper
This is a popular belief in the Manosphere today. Hypergamous stress is so intense that women have turned into mercenaries with respect to vetting the men they’ll accept to plan a future with. I’ll admit, a lot of well-meaning Red Pill men believe women’s Hypergamous Filter is necessarily amoral if not overtly cruel. The ill-informed critics of Hypergamy believe in a binary extreme. They presume that all those Red Pill guys are self-defeated by the idea that all women are prostitutes and only “out to get theirs“. This is simplistic ignorance of the concept of Hypergamy meant to dissuade the curious from Red Pill truths that they refuse to process. But do they kind of have a point though?
Virtually every extreme of MGTOW and the Mens Rights Movement have some open variation of how Hypergamy is a straight jacket and
“Why bother with a woman for anything other than a short term fuck if her Hypergamous nature will just predispose her to jumping ship to the first guy who comes along with a bigger dick or a bigger wallet?”
I covered all of these is detail in Hypergamy – The Misconceptions a while ago in case you’re curious as to why these are unfounded, and more often deliberate, misunderstandings of women’s nature. And no, that doesn’t mean I’m backpedaling on anything I’ve ever written about Hypergamy.
A couple weeks ago I got wrapped up in a Twitter exchange about the conflict between whether women indeed wait for the winners at the finish line or they make calculated bets about a man’s future potential.
From a pragmatic point of view I’m very much inclined to agree with this assessment. Yes, it makes women seem overly mercenary with respect to Hypergamy, but I’ve said it as much myself in any number of prior essays:
Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.
The Marriage Game
In a purely evolutionary context it’s true; because a woman’s sexual market value – and ultimately her only agency with men – is perishable Hypergamy cannot afford for a woman to waste her time on a ‘good bet‘. This truth is a basic, Darwinistic, rule for women’s sexual strategy.
Despite all the social conventions to make them believe otherwise, women’s hindbrains know that their sexual agency and prime fertility window in life is limited. This creates a degree of urgency in a woman as she gets closer to, or ages past, the Wall. This understanding necessitates tradeoffs, but optimally a woman would prefer not to take chances with her reproductive future – and ultimately her life’s future.
For the more nihilistically inclined men of the ‘sphere, this Darwinistic determinism seems like a reproductive death sentence. If women only fuck the winners at the finish line, and you’re a loser, you may as well give up and go jerk off, right? This defeatism is a core tenet of the Black Pill.
All that said, a lot of people disagree with this assessment:
Jack knows I love him, but he is living with a girl much younger than himself. While I think that’s cool, and proof of Red Pill concept, he is actually living out the point being made here. Statistically, women tend to prefer men who are 5 to 7 years their senior. Another aspect of women’s evolved mental firmware is the natural attraction to older men as prospective long term mates. Women know that it takes men longer to mature into the genuine value that her Hypergamous Filters test for. An older rich man is always more believable than a younger rich man. Women tend to pair with a man their senior because Hypergamy doesn’t need to wait on his potential when he’s already a proven commodity.
Most of the criticism in this thread centers on exaggerating the age of “marriageable men” to the point of absurdity, but women do look for long term security as a prime requisite of the men they hope to pair for life with. There is a root-level presumption in women, correct or not, that an older man will have established the status and resources a woman needs in a long term partner. In fact, our feminine-primary social order shames men for not preparing to assume this role of security provider for women by a certain age (usually 30ish).
Alexander is also a good friend, but I’m going to disagree with half of his assessment. Women don’t readily recognize potential in men. In fact most of them are piss poor at it. This is because they’ve been socially conditioned to focus more on themselves (and exacerbated by their innate solipsism) than be concerned with making a good assessment of men’s potential for future success.
Now, before you think I’m siding with the Hypergamous nihilists, this did give me pause to step back and assess my stance on women reading men’s potentials to provide for their future security. And that last part is the most important because women’s sexual strategy has two parts: Alpha Fucks – short term sexual needs – and Beta Bucks – long term provisioning and security needs. It’s the latter that we’re discussing in this debate.
Women want to fuck the winners in the short term, but they will also assess a man’s potential for the long term.
Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game.
The Epiphany Phase Revisited
In the essay Women’s Existential Fear I also made the following proposition:
The Existential Fear in women is that their innate, Hypergamous Filter, their Feminine Intuition, might be fooled, and by being fooled she may either die or have her reproductive potential compromised for her lifetime by bearing and raising the child of man who is a suboptimal Hypergamous choice for her – a man who exerted his will over her Hypergamous choosing filters.
Making Choices
All of this presumes that a woman is in some way testing for a man’s potential. Even women’s autonomous shit testing is a confirmation of this. So yes, women do look for potential in men. Some better than others. The Hypergamous Filter is an imperfect tool which is exactly why women needed to mystify their feminine intuition in popular understanding. Men had to be kept in the dark as to a woman’s motives because their filters have always been intuitive guesswork. This is a vulnerability that men might exploit – with good Game for instance – if women were ever honest about it.
Not all women can fuck the winners so they have to make calculated bets on men. This is also a reason women rely on social proof and the preselection cues of other women. If other women find a guy to be a ‘good bet’ it provides her a short cut to getting to intimacy. Again, Hypergamy cannot afford to miss out on a socially confirmed ‘good bet’. And yes, this is also a vulnerability in women’s vetting process that men with good Game regularly exploit.
So, the tradeoff is this: when a woman is at her peak sexual market value (SMV) she has the leisure to fuck the winners at the finish line. The more her SMV decays the fewer her options become, and the more likely it is that her necessity requires her to make a ‘bet’ on a man’s future potential. This is the primary reason women opt for the Beta in Waiting around her Epiphany Phase. Necessity forces her to go with good potential.
One of the ways feminism and female-primacy sabotages women’s ability to vet for good potential is in the mythology surrounding their sexual viability as they get older. Social conventions constantly reinforce the false idea that a woman’s SMV is indefinite – and by extension her agency over men should also be indefinite. This is why Blank Slate idealism and Social Constructionism are a preferred mythology for women. Without the Blank Slate a woman would be forced to accept the evolved realities of her sex. The Blank Slate is a prime source of women’s solipsistic denial of her own nature.
Turnkey Men
Do women care about the struggle? Do women ever appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate their own realities? I explored this topic a long time ago in Appreciation and I’m still going with my old assessment, no.
It may be that a man of Rich Cooper’s age, affluence and status only attracts the ‘finish line girls’ because he’s already a made man. He’s an attractive catch because he’s already a proven commodity. Thus, he tends to attract women who are looking for a ‘Turnkey’ man with an established world into which they want to move.
I should also add that most middle aged women, past their sexual prime and well past any long term potential they may’ve had themselves universally look for the ‘Turnkey’ man – once they’re done playing cougar immediately after their divorce. This is another illustration of women’s sexual strategy from the post-Wall side. Alpha Fucks – Beta Bucks never changes, only the context does. Post divorce women go through a second Epiphany Phase right after the divorce. Play cougar and fuck the fun college guys if they can because it’s easy, but be on the lookout for a ‘Turnkey’ winner who’s still ignorant of his Blue Pill conditioning at 45.
Whether it’s a woman in her late 20s or a post-Wall ‘mature woman‘ a man’s struggles to become her ideal is largely irrelevant to her. WHile women are speculators with respect to men it’s the end result of those struggles that’s the operative for her. Almost every woman who disagreed in the Twitter thread above all had some success story of how their brilliant feminine intuition led to them investing in the man they’re so proud to call a husband now. None of them were about how they made a horrible mistake in betting their future on a losing horse. So it’s important to see how the results skew for women.
Women will readily make claims on Relational Equity as an insurance against his leaving her later, once he’s achieved that potential. His struggle and her bearing through it with him is only important in that it produced the positive results she’d hoped for. That ‘dedication’ of seeing it through is her relationship insurance. It’s why women despise and reinforce the “trophy wife” meme. It’s prime indignation to have a man betray her speculation on him by rewarding a younger, hotter, tighter woman at the finish line.
Your struggle is her burden despite you having to bear it under duress of her abandoning you if you failed. Women will never appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate a reality, her sexual/life strategy, she believes was always her due. You just did what you were supposed to do as a man. Women believe it is their due to pair with a man who is worthy of her social media inflated ego. If that sounds harsh remember that women regularly bemoan the lack of men who are their “equal partners” in both money and education well after their prime SMV years are past.
Finally, the reason the finish line metaphor is apt is because more women than ever are postponing marriage in the expectation that ‘Turnkey’ made men will be waiting and available when they hit 31-33 years old, rather than investing in men with good potential in their early to mid 20s. Doing so would mean sacrificing their peak SMV Party Years when someone like Sheryl Sandberg convinces them to wait for the ‘Right Guy‘. It’s simple pragmatism for a woman not to bet her reproductive future on an unproven commodity so early in life. If she does, and it works out for the best, she’s practically sainted by the Sisterhood for her prudence and sacrifice for him. Behind every great man is a woman, right?
But if she chooses unwisely and her life goes to hell she’s wasted her own potential on a bad bet. Social conventions can mitigate this of course. Men can always be blamed for her downfall, but she’s still saddled with the consequences of that bad bet. And it is exactly these consequences of a bad Hypergamous choice that the Feminine Imperative will bend all its power to legally and socially insure against for women (i.e. legal abortion, child support laws, #MeToo, the Duluth Model of feminism).
All of this is why women are pushing their decision to marry, if at all, back to older and older ages. The average age of first marriage today is 27-28 for women, and the overall marriage rate has been in free-fall for decades now. This is why. This evolved dynamic is conflicting with our present age’s social imperatives for women and the falsehoods they are conditioned to believe about their sex from the earliest ages.
If you liked this topic you can also listen to my discussion about it with Donovan Sharpe here:
It seems like the red pill as praxeology looks at women as a biological mechanism with NO value or cause/effect given to consciousness. Maybe Roosh is adding a degree of consideration of consciousness to things…?
Clearly this then brings into the equation some moral considerations.
Maybe he should stop short of getting moralistic BUT perhaps adding a consideration of consciousness into the Red Pill equation essentially necessitates an inclusion of ones own moral perspective.
@foxguy
That’s like saying I can’t be about having a successful career, launching a business and trying to make money AND be about Buddhist principles like non attachment. Yes I can. Tough line to walk but it’s possible. Then again you can’t have a coin without two sides. A successful business can have an intentional loss leader. A new father can hate his child (at times). The conscious is matched with an unconscious. And on and on we go. So maybe it’s not even a line to be walked but two sides to be explored.
The Dude with his volume claims ignores some important points. First, game isn’t primarily about getting lays–it’s about manipulating people to accomplish your goals. That can include getting lays, but doesn’t have to–it might be about getting a hotel discount or an upgrade on a rental or a free drink or a job offer or a contract agreement. Second, about game working…you can just sit back and not do any approaches and get 100% lays if you only pick low-hanging fruit. No game required for that. But if you want to lay prettier women, you have to approach and demonstrate… Read more »
@ RandomDude “It seems like the red pill as praxeology looks at women as a biological mechanism with NO value or cause/effect given to consciousness.” I struggle with this too, to be honest. It feels demeaning to women to see them as biological mechanisms, and I have female friends and work colleagues whom I absolutely regard as valuable, conscious people. Yet in the context of a sexual relationship, the principles that make for deep, lasting friendships (trust, acceptance, honesty) simply don’t apply. Red Pill principles do. Game works. I’ve said ‘Game’ things to a woman, thinking ‘This can’t possibly work’… Read more »
Trust honesty and acceptance can absolutely exist in a sexual relationship. Again, it’s up to the man to be able to recognize and engender these things. People in general, all of them won’t be trusting/trustworthy or honest nor accepting. Everybody won’t be your good friend. The greater the number of people you interact with, and being able to understand who they are ( Game ), assists in finding people who fit ( I resist the term ” value ” because it’s vague, corporate and insufficient ) within your life for the long term. This takes time. You can’t just wake… Read more »
@ASD Sure. Actually showing up is key. So what you’re saying is True but trivially True In fact, why even the need to use the term “game”? Why not just use the term “Sales.”? This has the advantage of not confining yourself to narrow range of literature. Lots of good peer-reviewed stuff in Sales research Second, being charitable here but I think when you equate “game” (or in my language “sales”) to “manipulation” you’re probably referring to what’s actually happening behaviorally in a non-pejorative objective sense. I say that because the best salesmen DON’T come in with the INTENT to… Read more »
Game is not sales.
Methinks the waters are hopelessly muddied.
Because of Game, I’ve always been a salesman’s worst nightmare. Game is deeper than someone buying you drinks or being ” friendly “.
[…] Source link […]
“3) Build yourself up > there’s more ROI in that than studying game material”
Of course building up your game isn’t building yourself up…
Lol
Game deniers gonna deny. That simple.
Also this “product” orientation is foolish. Puts yourself in her frame to start… But again dog logic compels check the box thinking…
Hey Archie! Help!!!!
30+ years ago, I read a Tony Robbins book ( and haven’t bothered since ). Inadvertently I think, Robbins managed to touch on some aspects of Game. I never figured out where he got the inspiration though. The part that struck me was the idea of ” mirroring “. Game is getting someone comfortable, and in that comfort ( by degree ), the truth will begin to emerge. You have to become comfortable as well, meaning no judgements. Get them to tell you who they are and accept that ( not to accept falseness…But that’s a different thing altogether). During… Read more »
“Inadvertently I think, Robbins managed to touch on some aspects of Game. ”
Well NLP has been part of Fame since the early 1990’s and Ross Jefferies.
Game is about reading people, qualifying them, getting them to trust you, getting people to like you, etc. Good sales uses game. Good sales vets people to see if they need what you are selling–otherwise you get lots of returns. I never got many returns, unlike other salesmen. I was usually second in sales volume. Good game helps you realize when someone else is trying to game you. Always game the sales people to get the best deals. @The Dude Re: showing up I was competing with a married resident and with a handsome, older, wealthy man. They both showed… Read more »
“Get them to tell you who they are and accept that. During that phase, you’ll figure out how the person communicates, and you’ll adapt naturally or start to ” mirror ” them”.
25:58 – 32:40
https://youtu.be/xIibTg09JMc?t=1558
” People trust people they like ”
😂
Yeah, but guys need to grow out of that shit.
” like ” and ” trust” are two totally different things. ” Like ” is feelz driven. ” Trust ” is driven by proof/evidence over time.
@Blaximus The way the term “game” is used is a lot like the way the term “value” or even “alpha” is used. It’s vague and hopelessly ill-defined. Some dudes use it to refer to all the tools, techniques, process, world-view, basically everything under the sun mobilized to get Tail: physical fitness, making money, social skills, whatevers If THAT isn’t putting yourself in a woman’s frame then i don’t know what is BTW–I’m also a salesman’s worst nightmare. I chock that up to just being a smart consumer @Sentient The heck you talking about. Building yourself up (AKA building a good… Read more »
@Sentient
“3) Build yourself up > there’s more ROI in that than studying game material”
“Of course building up your game isn’t building yourself up…”
You’re gonna need to explain that one to Mr. ‘If you build it the will come’ (aka blax) and Mr. chop wood to keep yourself warm guy…
J The guy in the video has some points, but the interaction sounds like he’s in an interview. He sees it as ” demonstrating value ” ( see why I dislike the overuse of that term? He’s talking about what he ” does ” in a dry, interview way. No real value outside of provider possibilities and a heap of dog logic ), and he might get laid because girls fuck when they want to. If other dudes can’t hold a conversation…at all, then this guy looks a better bet. Not because he’s demonstrating value. He’s smart enough to be… Read more »
Zendude
My definition of Game isn’t the same as pua game.
It’s confusing, I know.
Game isn’t ” woman centric “.
“You’re gonna need to explain that one to Mr. ‘If you build it the will come’ (aka blax) and Mr. chop wood to keep yourself warm guy…”
I dont think so. They know that attraction is one thing and understanding attraction ans what to do with it is another.
Now this Zen guy on the other hand…
“but the interaction sounds like he’s in an interview”
Your looking at the surface level (dog logic….of course it sounds that way to you) and missing the underlying principles of what he’s actually doing (controlling the conversation to where he’s now flipped the script, to where she’s trying to game him).
FYI: I think this interaction is boring too lmao. But I understand the principles he’s using and try to implement them in my game.
“It’s like creating an elaborate language that does the same thing as common sense. ”
What examination of the subject have you done?
Common Sense says “be yourself” lol
Lol. Dude in the video isn’t controlling anything, he’s just talking and convincing himself that he’s doing something deeper.
Dog logic. WOOF!!!!
lol
@sentient Think back to High School Who was getting laid? Pretty boys (looks), Jocks (status), that one dude with a sense of humor (personality) If you had none of the above, what were your parents telling you? Make money.. build it and it will come AKA: COMMON SENSE Unless you’re extremely autistic, “be yourself” never meant “drink a 6 pack of beer and watch football all day.” It meant: “don’t be fake.” The person telling you to “be yourself” was also probably a friend or family member, somebody who probably ASSUMED YOU ALREADY HAD VALUE. Why would they think that?… Read more »
Make money.. build it and it will come
Desire sex won’t come that way. Relationship/transactional sex, yes, but not pure desire sex.
That’s fine for most guys — most guys never get desire sex, so they don’t know the difference anyway — and because of that they can be just as gratified by a hooker, because that isn’t desire sex either but they don’t know what desire sex is like, so they don’t know what they’re missing.
Sometimes ignorance really is bliss, I guess.
If you build yourself up primarily for the purpose of others(if you build it they will come) then you aren’t really in your own frame to begin with. If you become component you will attract others , is it 9s and 10s ? I don’t know. I know some guys with good social game who are incompetent in other very key areas of life such as security/combat skills, in my opinion those are more important than chasing women. It may just be me, but every time I see these PUA like RSD, Mystery, etc, videos, I defiantly personally don’t see… Read more »
“The way forward is to go backwards”
https://youtu.be/aq5ecBaOb6Y
“Think back to High School
Who was getting laid?
Pretty boys (looks), Jocks (status), that one dude with a sense of humor (personality)”
Lol. You never went to a house party in high school?
Lots of pimply faced average guys getting laid in high school. Guys working at Burger King had GFs. Burnouts banging girls in basements. Guys picking up girls at the movies and going to drink and hang out.
Guys who got laid just stepped up and went for it.
@nova alright, that was a bit of hyperbole on my part. It was meant to read “build it and they will come.” money just being one aspect of building it as per “desire” sex. I’ll take you to mean the experience of sex with a woman who finds you extremely attractive. Real talk here: we both know that type of sex is accessible to many if not most Men. All they got to do is date down. Attraction sex is all about assymetry. But that’s probably not even what you’re saying. What you really really want to say is having… Read more »
@Sentient
I only remembered the Hot Broads. Whatever purple haired ogre that the pimply kid was getting doesn’t count
“I only remembered the Hot Broads. ”
Masturbation is as masturbation does.
You skipped answering my question btw. Or did you?
“It meant: “don’t be fake.” The person telling you to “be yourself” was also probably a friend or family member, ”
Haha. Mothers, sisters, girlfriends of friends…
Just be nice!
zen — Desire sex = is the kind of sex a woman has with a man based on pure desire, regardless of the rest of his “context” (i.e., regardless of “buffers” like money, status, fame, etc.). Every “contextual” vector that comes into play makes the sex a bit more transactional, even if it is outside the context of a relationship per se, because the woman is getting something in return, apart than just gratifying her open, undeniable, raw lust. Desire sex is the kind of sex that woman who is in the grip if that kind of undeniable raw lust… Read more »
“in the degree of filthiness ”
And there’s that Madonna/Whore thing, right on schedule.
” . . . Men way back in the early 20th or late 19th century didn’t exactly go around supplicating to women or running game.” Court-ing; going to court. What for? To supplicate to women. The lower classes went to the fair to supplicate to women. In rural areas they still do. Dating, a new and radical thing, began in the “Gay Nineties.” It first became broadly popular among socially radical cosmopolitans of the “Roaring Twenties,” in the general social disruption caused by WWI. The word “dating” only arose with WWII and didn’t become a general social convention until the… Read more »
@kfg @nova
Great comments.
@nova I’ve never fought in a war but I have a sense for what it could be like to fight in one That one guy who found a video of his wife doing all manner of filthy sex he’s been asking from her with somebody else also probably has an idea of what it’s like without experiencing it first hand Anyone who’s had sex with a woman who lusted for him and then subsequently dated a woman closer to his level who didn’t lust just as much also could probably tell what it’s like I also doubt the Russian Oligarch… Read more »
“Make yourself strong (and you don’t need game for that)”
And by that you mean pay hookers for it (sex).
lol ok.
Zen
Can we fast forward to the part where “fine. Game works on drunk bar sluts but if you want a quality woman…”
Unless you want to say none of the above is valid and that only “game” can catapault a man to the heights of “desire sex” (which is really gonna turn things into a philosophical discussion) Well that is the discussion. Game is the most reliable means of doing that. “Building yourself” works fine from a life perspective overall and isn’t a bad thing, but it doesn’t get you desire sex unless you fuck down -2 or more. All of us know guys who did a great job of building themselves into multi-millionaire entrepreneurs, senior execs in large corps, partners in… Read more »
@palmasailor Look dude, I’m obviously not a reductionist. Looks, Money, Status, Personality etc… these are just drivers. They increase your odds, sometimes substantially so. There are also plenty of other factors in play like the pool of available men (i.e. your competitive landscape), etc… What do you think is more plausible: You read some game book, drop an opinion opener and get laid OR You going out on the regular, figuring out through trial and error what works and doesn’t work, and through the process learning to better communicate the value you’ve accumulated throughout the years till you hit your… Read more »
Zen
“You read some game book, drop an opinion opener and get laid OR You going out on the regular, figuring out through trial and error what works and doesn’t work, and through the process learning to better communicate ”
Not a reductionist eh? Because for Sure Game is against going out and practicing.
That whole “field is king” thing doesn’t exist.
Look pal it’s clear you don’t know anything about game that isn’t from wiki.
“And what’s the deal with this whole Madonna-Whore thing? I want both in the same woman…”
Whoosh! and Q.E.D.
@Nova “I agree that a man can get that, to some extent with “down” fucking, provided he is attractive enough that a woman who is -2 SMV still passes his boner test (this generally doesn’t work for average attractiveness guys, because even for them a 3 doesn’t pass the boner test). But, as you say, the idea is getting desire sex from women whom you find very attractive, not just women who pass the boner test at 2am.” “average attractiveness”…SMV for guys is based on looks, right? I assume you’ll say no. So what is a man’s attractiveness based on?… Read more »
@Nova Building yourself up is necessary and sometimes enough but not always sufficient for “desire sex” As much as I’d like to have a debate on Game, whether it’s really a thing and Desire Sex—and frankly this is a good forum for it as this is a Manosphere blog and not a Game blog—I think we can both acknowledge that it will a very labor intensive and possibly futile task First off, compared to the “Red Pill”, there isn’t exactly a non-ambiguous question begging agreed upon conception of “game.” Is it really a thing? If so, how is it different… Read more »
Let’s throw this wrench into the gears: why is it “Incels” don’t want to bang hookers to end their sexlessness?
Answers of “They’re all disordered spergs, who cares?” will be ignored.
What really is the reason for and how did this red pill thing come about? It was always there. It always was. It is what it is. And it will always be. It is the truth. The issue men have is with dealing with women’s hypergamy. Men want to control it. Some want to get rid of it. In doing so, you will have to get rid of women and that won’t be good for anybody. But every heart break, every complaint and every bewilderment that men face with regards to the sexual dynamics between men and women can be… Read more »
@Rollo It’s Culture.. particularly a weakness in this culture that equates success as a man with “desire sex” or “notch count” Indeed, that’s the great irony in Roissy’s conception of Alpha. Alpha in the USA = notch count. Doesn’t matter if you discover a new continent, be the first man in Mars, find a cure for cancer, you’re lol perceived as a “loser” if some alpha buddha has more notches than you. Come to think about it… perhaps he was being an ironist all along! In other parts of the world such as Spain and Germany, it ain’t a problem.… Read more »
@rollo Here’s another wrench.. if game as defined is truly the great equalizer, then why has it had next to zero impact? This game thing has been out since 2006, yet today you have 30% of Men under the age of 30 getting zero sex… And please don’t say they weren’t really doing game. What the proselytizers fail to acknowledge is that we are perpetually in a Red Queen situation. This is why the idea of pussy paradise only exists in a particular place and time. Once it’s advertized… the place gets flooded by westerners and soon after the former… Read more »
“This game thing has been out since 2006 . . .”
https://infogalactic.com/info/Don_Juan
Do these guys suddenly get HB8s and 9s? Of course not. Rome wasn’t built in a day. But they have no chance of having desire sex with a woman they find very attractive without Game. It doesn’t really matter if they are good looking, rich, high status. All of that helps you in terms of giving you access to places where beautiful women are found, that’s true. But getting desire sex with one of those women … well that is something your money and your status and your looks won’t get you, because those women have all not lusted for… Read more »
“every person who has ever had a problem with anyone using hookers are usually” 6) men who have the ability (game) to seduce and bed desirable women. Who have trouble understanding why any attractive man would ever resort to paying girls $$$ to do something they already like doing for free, with said attractive men. “Even if no other woman is around, her hindbrain tells her that she better get him quick before some other woman does”. lol. and how exactly do you go about inspiring this feeling in a whore? Her job title is literally to fuck anyone who’ll… Read more »
@Rollo. Why do incels not want to bang hookers? The mentality of these guys is one of pain and loss which they channel through their delusion that they’re holding out. My divorced friend who’s holding out for the Milf ex who wants to bang other dudes is a good looking guy. But he told me he could never do anything that would hurt her….she tells him she wants to “date” other guys and he thinks it’s a shit test. I explain the concept of hypergamy and how saying she “wants” to date other people means she IS banging other dudes.… Read more »
“Why do incels not want to bang hookers?”
There would be many reasons of course. In the US it would be difficult for the white/asian middle class boys who mostly seem to make up Incels to find prostitutes. At least ones that seem clean and safe. Also you can’t really take whatever self-professed incels write online as the gospel truth. A lot of what you read would be posturing and an act. Perhaps they aren’t as desperate or as lonely as they make themselves out to be.
@Seth — At the end of the day what most men really mean is enthusiastic sex or unenthusiastic sex. Nope — that’s not desire sex, not quite, as your later example demonstrates: Creating a high energy atmosphere( an extension of you) and Having two experienced whores suck your cock while waving an extra $100 bill and playing the game which one of these girls suck it the best(or fuck it the best). will more often that not give you that freaky sex. (women are sexual freaks by nature including the good girl most men supposedly vet for) Reason being, one… Read more »
Incels are typically focused on one girl whom they idolize in a Madonna complex and won’t consider other girls. Especially prostitutes.
@ Rollo
Why don’t incels go to hookers to end their sexlessless?
I imagine they do or at least try it as a solution. But when one goes without sex for a long period, whether months or even years, it’s not the lack of sex which hurts—it’s the feeling of being unwanted, undesireable and powerless to do anything about it. I believe most men want to feel wanted, and paying for sex simply doesn’t resolve that. Indeed, the usual ‘Suck ‘n Fuck’ services of a hooker can actually bring that feeling into sharper relief rather than mitigate it.
Great discussion. I said it before, and I’ll say it again – God Bless You Nova. You too Palma. I’d not noticed that Seth and Zen were missing the desire sex aspect. It’s informative how they downplay it, and that’s not my throwing shade. Like Nova says, you don’t know what you don’t know, and as Palma says, once you’ve has it you don’t care to settle for something else. For some guys it doesn’t matter. Ejaculation is ejaculation. The Indy 500 isn’t the same as your local interstate though, even though people ” drive ” on both, that driving… Read more »
s”: why is it “Incels” don’t want to bang hookers to end their sexlessness?” Hazard guess, If the brain is wired to porn and pixels is the main arousal mechanism then the real thing becomes problematic. Ie why pay for some wet spot and then have to view porn in order to experience it and to top things off it won’t stop asking questions. Another thing I’ve noticed is the results of lower testosterone over all = a low reproductive instinct coupled with fewer IOI’s,It’s as if young mens libido has been effectively wiped out. Then if this is the… Read more »
Incels don’t go buying hookers because
-they are still heavily stuck in the Blue Pill fantasy of finding ‘the one’, rom-com style.
-they are protectors of the feminine imperative, and supporting prostitution is going against the feminine imperative.
-also, buying a pro is not romantic. Incels would rather plan a Mega Date and cuddle afterwards, coz that’s what a gentleman does.
/End 2 cents
@Rollo – They’re all disordered spergs, who cares?
@nova Don’t see how you think I’m redirecting. Your contention was that game enables uglies to get desire sex with HB 8s provided that they put in the time and effort Now don’t come in and say that transformation from a frog to a prince is also part of the “game” as some of your followers may appeal to on your behalf. Recall you mentioned that despite the various conceptions of game out there—to the point that it can mean anything and therefore nothing—that all I got to do is pick any conception there. Well in that case I will… Read more »
@Zendude “Your contention was that game enables uglies to get desire sex with HB 8s provided that they put in the time and effort” No, if you’re a 2/10 looks-wise (but even then, you can definitely move up 2 SMV points via looks+style maxxing, and then get desire sex from bangable girls (around the 5-6 range) with good game. But that’s only if your absolutely hideous. And that’s totally up to him to decide if he prefers transactional sex with HB7-8s (don’t think there are HB9 hookers lol) Vs desire sex with HB5-6s) you’re not gonna be banging HB8s via… Read more »
To be the wife of a general, you have to marry a lieutenant. – old Russian proverb (supposedly) Single women have to take substantial bets in life no matter what they choose, just like men. Staying single is itself a bet, because it’s based on the assumption of a future happy spinster life. A woman can pair up with a man who seems to have future potential, and if she makes the right choice, he will become the sort of man who would not choose her 10-15 years later, or she can delay the choice and hope that she’ll retain… Read more »
Your contention was that game enables uglies to get desire sex with HB 8s provided that they put in the time and effort No, I never actually said that. What I said is that for anyone to have desire sex with an HB8 it takes Game, regardless of how they look. That doesn’t mean a male “2”, in genetic terms, can get there. It does mean, however, that a male “5” can, with Game. Will he have as easy a time of it as a genetic male “8” will? No, he won’t. But he can also beat the genetic male… Read more »
Only glancing quickly at comments – saw Novaseeker had commented and clicked through to read for two minutes. Think the points have been covered, but just want to quickly add that as a former incel and virgin until age 24, who then had “normal” relationships and dating and sex with several women till my early 30s, the first time I had true desire sex in my early 30s (NOT the previous relationships and women who were all perfectly willing and happy to sleep with me and enjoyed themselves) was utterly revelatory. It’s like night and day – once you experience… Read more »
@culum, I tried to find the story on desire sex you refer to but failed. It’d be very instructive to read a bit about it, the background that led there and so on. If you have a vague sense of where it is, or can post a link, it’d be great. By the way, while looking for it I read the first posts of FR, @ehintellect’s stories and the discussions around those of all you guys. These are testing days and it’s so inspiring to read and compare to the way he writes now. For all the newbies like me… Read more »
Desire vs. Negotiated sex There’s not much difference as both manipulate a woman’s survival insecurity. Desire sex occurs as if she doesn’t fuck you her future genetic survival might cease. Negotiated sex occurs as if she doesn’t fuck you her immediate genetic survival might cease…which is a problem for her future genetic survival. In conclusion, the idea that one is better than the other is false. Both impose an existential fear of nothingness (dread) to elicit sex. Remove the fear, she walks away if you subscribe strictly to the binary female AF/BB theory…or predicate the relationship on something else if… Read more »
@Nova Fair enough. Our disagreement seems academic at this point You say: Person X learns game–X being some dude with the requisite looks, status ,etc…–and applies that skillset in some environment resulting in desire sex with HB8 I say: Person X reads game and gets inspired to go out regularly—X being some dude with the requisite looks, status, social skills,etc..—and along the way in his journey through the process of exposure learns to relax around women. Eventually he meets someone that has the hots for a composite of traits he posseses (looks + humor or whatever) and give him a… Read more »
@palm also, regarding the Product thing I did say above that I’m a wise consumer and do my due diligence. In general, if a “how-to” or “awarness raising” product is consistent with the results of the emprical sciences, then I’m less likely to be skepitcal Motive also matters. Like Rollo has been doing this waayyyy back since the SoSuave era. And who knows why… Maybe intellecutal masturbation or some such and it makes sense since this is an interesting and important topic. If somebody after years of reflection wanted to condense his writings and put it out in the public… Read more »
Well
https://givingpledge.org/Pledger.aspx?id=393
18.5 isn’t bad
“You call it game, I call it going out there and selling the Product you already have”
Game isn’t selling. There’s no rational effect. Spiking a woman’s libido primarily affects a woman’s midbrain by increasing her dopamine levels. Laughter, giggles, shrieks, lube. This isn’t about presenting a product.
@ Rc Good to see you back. Something about all this RP desire vs. negotiated sex confuses a lot of guys. Why? It’s not the whole story…. and that is why we “don’t see Rollo dishing out very specific solutions” as he has none. He’s got some observations and remains in the evo-bio camp which turns the intersexual dynamic into one of stimulus-response which deceives men into viewing women as strict non-sentients. It’s easier to look at others as animals to be herded, apparently. Assuming all sex is AF/BB…then all sex is negotiated…either women giving pussy for AF seed or… Read more »
@EhIntellect “Assuming all sex is AF/BB…then all sex is negotiated” That’s what I’m been saying when I said it’s essentially transactional. If you look behind the hood, a chick is gonna select a man based on his looks which is a cue for his overall and primordial genetic profile (a very reductive view of it) and/or provisioning capabilities (which probably correlates to qualities that became important as we evolved). From a female first person perspective, when a woman see a hot dude, she’s really saying i’ll trade sex for your genetic material…Of course there’s variance. So you will have outliers… Read more »
this guy again… If you look behind the hood, a chick is gonna select a man based on his looks which is a cue for his overall and primordial genetic profile (a very reductive view of it) and/or provisioning capabilities (which probably correlates to qualities that became important as we evolved). Sure ignore ALL the experiences that disprove this… lol Cause skinny ass broke guys aren’t ever banging hot young girls… Do you even know what attraction switches are bro? “Now although behind the hood it’s transactional, a guy with great genetic material is more likely to phenomenally or experientially… Read more »
@ASD Here’s a thought experiment Say I go to a club with an HB9 hooker and I say to her “You see that guy over there… his name is Novaseeker… I want you to go over to him and make him think you want to have his baby.” Nova runs his game, takes her to the bathroom and does wild animal sex—and as his MO records it After the deed, Nova comes over to me and says “Yo Zendude, let me show you something… this…this right here is desire-sex… here’s another video… here’s one more… you see dude… this is… Read more »
You call it game, I call it going out there and selling the Product you already have”
Game isn’t selling. There’s no rational effect. Spiking a woman’s libido primarily affects a woman’s midbrain by increasing her dopamine levels. Laughter, giggles, shrieks, lube. This isn’t about presenting a product.
Have to agree with ASD of all people… Guys like Zen are locked into a zero sum model, basic dog logic run amok. He would fail “selling” roller coaster rides…
“That’s what I’m been saying when I said it’s essentially transactional.” zendude, that is where you are wrong. You render women into beasts….to which they are, to an extent, and so are you….but not only that….there’s more to it and speaking of our existence strictly evo-bio renders evo-bio results and hence the present shit show of feminism and equality and all that other stuff fouling up our lives. We choose our disorder. Think of it in another context… Why are some communities, neighborhoods, families, marriages more stable and self-perpetuating? Are you contending the stability is based on strict give-take? Are… Read more »
@ASD
And then I pull the same scheme on Sentient and when I come in to tell the truth, he says…. “oh this guy again!” “what a joke!” “Game-Denialist!!!”
oh brother
@ Sentient
“Just straight KJing now…”
Oh yeah. The inexperience shows and quickly.
“Then you have cases where you can have the wildest most intense experience with a hooker…”
Lol stupid. WTF is he talking about? Who is reporting wild intense hooker sex to this goofball?
All the guys I’ve read here who’ve used hookers say meh about it all.
zendude….try again.
I say: Person X reads game and gets inspired to go out regularly—X being some dude with the requisite looks, status, social skills,etc..—and along the way in his journey through the process of exposure learns to relax around women. Eventually he meets someone that has the hots for a composite of traits he posseses (looks + humor or whatever) and give him a lustful blowjob in the bathroom and thanks him You call it game, I call it going out there and selling the Product you already have Gee it’s like a guy can learn social skills and how to… Read more »
“Say I go to a club with an HB9 hooker and I say to her “You see that guy over there… his name is Novaseeker… I want you to go over to him and make him think you want to have his baby”
Stopped reading here. An HB9 isn’t gonna approach you. Let alone be DTF right away. And give zero resistance to a club bathroom pull. Thats just experience talking. I don’t know Nova, but I’m sure he would know something was off and not go through with it.
An HB9 isn’t gonna approach you. Let alone be DTF right away. And give zero resistance
An HB9 escort would. And Nova and everyone else with half a brain would know she was a hooker. and SHE would talk terms up front.
The hypothetical is inapposite. I get the point — if it feels similar to desire sex, how can you tell the difference? Your idea is that the only reason you would think otherwise is if you knew it was a hooker, because a hooker faking desire sex feels the same to you as actual desire sex does, provided you don’t know she’s a hooker. Your suggestion, of course, is that any woman, not just a hooker, can “fake” desire sex if she is motivated to do so — to get your genes or your provision, which you see as transactional… Read more »
@fellas key word here is “make him think” as in convince him @nova you haven’t banged a hooker so that basically limits your worldview. you’re gonna say “touche” yo’ve never had “desire sex” how to solve this? well part of the reason I built up the thought experiment to include videos is to show that the behavior of the HB9 is virtually identical to the other chicks you’ve been banging and dude, don’t say a hooker won’t be able to fake it. There’s a reason people pay a pemium to get the Girl Friend Experience THEY KNOW HOW TO FAKE… Read more »
There’s a reason people pay a pemium to get the Girl Friend Experience
THEY KNOW HOW TO FAKE IT
They don’t fake getting payment. At all. There is no way a John can not know he paid her for it
The delusion is on the guy’s part to start out with. She doesn’t have to convince him by faking it…
They don’t fake getting payment. At all. There is no way a John can not know he paid her for it Right, but he’s saying what if you didn’t know she was a hooker (ie, you aren’t paying her, zen is, and he’s put her up to a rouse to pretend she’s really into you, while you presumably don’t know she’s a pro, so she “acts” and dresses and so on like a regular girl who’s just really into you. J makes a good point that an HB9 wouldn’t approach. Zen, I disagree that a man wouldn’t be able to… Read more »
Lol. Zen, Have you ever gone to an amusement park that had a haunted house or some other ” scary ” ride? Ever watch the reactions of people screaming at the top of their lungs? Unless they are idiots, the participants know they aren’t going to die in the ride. The dude with the giant axe isn’t really going to murder them. But they go, suspend belief for a while and experience a feeling. A hooker is like the person dressed like Jason in a hockey mask. You’re looking for the thrill, and you’re perceptions lead you down that path.… Read more »
Nova
When he says “people pay a pemium” he’s gone beyond the entrapment hypothetical. Not too many Dutch Uncles out there buying the unwitting GFE’s…
Sent —
That’s true.
Said it was my last post, but sometimes you just break your own rules. This is interesting. @palmasailor “When I sold the Eur/sek and Eur/Nok this morning during London hours” Why did you have to do the trade in London hours today? Doesn’t really matter although london morning sees more directional action especially for eur and scandinavian pairs. (for obvious reasons) Sold short based on signal time, just doubled up. I’ll see how they progress and adjust positions to suit. Now, for all the talks about desired sex, will the experts tell me how does it come about? Does it… Read more »
“Now, for all the talks about desired sex, will the experts tell me how does it come about? Does it happen out of thin air? Is it a one hit wonder? You don’t have to get into the marrow and bones. What triggers it? Little Seth wants to know.” Seth Saying: you don’t have to get into the marrow and bones is disingenuous. It may be simple or it may not be simple to “just get it” for any one man to be aware of what it is and how it comes about. Rollo doesn’t write his essays for no… Read more »
@nova she doesn’t even have to be faking In fact, you can run your game as normal and let’s say she responds to it The key thing in the thought experiment is that she’s paid Once you find out, you’ll always ask yourself: was it the money or the game? the Point here is YOU WILL NEVER KNOW what’s the takeaway here? YOU’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO ABSOLUTELY TELL IF IT’S DESIRE SEX OR NOT This is a Rashomon situation. I get 80% is like running in the direction you’re heading. We’re herd like people But if I can convince… Read more »
@Palmasailor
” London was shut on Monday”.
I know. So too was US due to holidays, but trading still goes on. Europe was open. Its a 24 hour market. Banks, brokers etc are globally connected. We generally call the time between 3 am et to 11 am et London hours.(Europe open mostly during that time also)
Should clear things up.
“…what’s the takeaway here? YOU’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO ABSOLUTELY TELL IF IT’S DESIRE SEX OR NOT.” Which is what: It is probabilistic not deterministic also applies to…. “But if I can convince one dude to think for himself and to come to his own conclusions (and who knows he may go back to the stampede), then my job here is done.” To what end? That is your ego investments talking. And what gets most guys in trouble is lack of awareness of inter-sexual dynamics, not knowing what they don’t know, blind spots and ego investments. The reason someone invented… Read more »
“you haven’t banged a hooker so that basically limits your worldview….”
I’ve not stuck an ice pick in my ear either. Look it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. How do we know? I’ve a sense of understanding…more than knowledge…there’s a difference and thus I can presume a lot without experiencing it all.
Noobs claim special status and argue exceptions as the rule. Thank you for your contribution, zen.
@SFJ
We are all on the same tent here. It’s a big tent
I disagree in having one solution for reasons already stated
Anyway.. I’ve exhausted this topic and already made my point
Interesting read
https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html
“I disagree in having one solution for reasons already stated
Anyway.. I’ve exhausted this topic and already made my point.”
Hopefully you have exhausted your Rolodex of Strawman Arguments also.
What’s this about “one solution”?
1989: The age-old fake-orgasm debate reaches its peak with the release of When Harry Met Sally.
2019: Today’s more nuanced outlook is evident as the discussion moves on to faking desire sex.
Aside from general behavior and energy levels, aren’t there some specific localized physical cues that reliably help distinguish desire sex from transactional sex, you’ll-do-for-now sex or let-me-know-when-you’re-done-up-there sex?