Choose Wisely

Potential vs. Struggle

“Women don’t care about the struggle. They wait at the finish line and fuck the winners.”

Rich Cooper

This is a popular belief in the Manosphere today. Hypergamous stress is so intense that women have turned into mercenaries with respect to vetting the men they’ll accept to plan a future with. I’ll admit, a lot of well-meaning Red Pill men believe women’s Hypergamous Filter is necessarily amoral if not overtly cruel. The ill-informed critics of Hypergamy believe in a binary extreme. They presume that all those Red Pill guys are self-defeated by the idea that all women are prostitutes and only “out to get theirs“. This is simplistic ignorance of the concept of Hypergamy meant to dissuade the curious from Red Pill truths that they refuse to process. But do they kind of have a point though?

Virtually every extreme of MGTOW and the Mens Rights Movement have some open variation of how Hypergamy is a straight jacket and

Why bother with a woman for anything other than a short term fuck if her Hypergamous nature will just predispose her to jumping ship to the first guy who comes along with a bigger dick or a bigger wallet?”

I covered all of these is detail in Hypergamy – The Misconceptions a while ago in case you’re curious as to why these are unfounded, and more often deliberate, misunderstandings of women’s nature. And no, that doesn’t mean I’m backpedaling on anything I’ve ever written about Hypergamy.

A couple weeks ago I got wrapped up in a Twitter exchange about the conflict between whether women indeed wait for the winners at the finish line or they make calculated bets about a man’s future potential.

From a pragmatic point of view I’m very much inclined to agree with this assessment. Yes, it makes women seem overly mercenary with respect to Hypergamy, but I’ve said it as much myself in any number of prior essays:

Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.

The Marriage Game

In a purely evolutionary context it’s true; because a woman’s sexual market value – and ultimately her only agency with men – is perishable Hypergamy cannot afford for a woman to waste her time on a ‘good bet‘. This truth is a basic, Darwinistic, rule for women’s sexual strategy.

Despite all the social conventions to make them believe otherwise, women’s hindbrains know that their sexual agency and prime fertility window in life is limited. This creates a degree of urgency in a woman as she gets closer to, or ages past, the Wall. This understanding necessitates tradeoffs, but optimally a woman would prefer not to take chances with her reproductive future – and ultimately her life’s future.

For the more nihilistically inclined men of the ‘sphere, this Darwinistic determinism seems like a reproductive death sentence. If women only fuck the winners at the finish line, and you’re a loser, you may as well give up and go jerk off, right? This defeatism is a core tenet of the Black Pill.

All that said, a lot of people disagree with this assessment:

Jack knows I love him, but he is living with a girl much younger than himself. While I think that’s cool, and proof of Red Pill concept, he is actually living out the point being made here. Statistically, women tend to prefer men who are 5 to 7 years their senior. Another aspect of women’s evolved mental firmware is the natural attraction to older men as prospective long term mates. Women know that it takes men longer to mature into the genuine value that her Hypergamous Filters test for. An older rich man is always more believable than a younger rich man. Women tend to pair with a man their senior because Hypergamy doesn’t need to wait on his potential when he’s already a proven commodity.

Most of the criticism in this thread centers on exaggerating the age of “marriageable men” to the point of absurdity, but women do look for long term security as a prime requisite of the men they hope to pair for life with. There is a root-level presumption in women, correct or not, that an older man will have established the status and resources a woman needs in a long term partner. In fact, our feminine-primary social order shames men for not preparing to assume this role of security provider for women by a certain age (usually 30ish).

Alexander is also a good friend, but I’m going to disagree with half of his assessment. Women don’t readily recognize potential in men. In fact most of them are piss poor at it. This is because they’ve been socially conditioned to focus more on themselves (and exacerbated by their innate solipsism) than be concerned with making a good assessment of men’s potential for future success.

Now, before you think I’m siding with the Hypergamous nihilists, this did give me pause to step back and assess my stance on women reading men’s potentials to provide for their future security. And that last part is the most important because women’s sexual strategy has two parts: Alpha Fucks – short term sexual needs – and Beta Bucks – long term provisioning and security needs. It’s the latter that we’re discussing in this debate.

Women want to fuck the winners in the short term, but they will also assess a man’s potential for the long term.

Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game.

The Epiphany Phase Revisited

In the essay Women’s Existential Fear I also made the following proposition:

The Existential Fear in women is that their innate, Hypergamous Filter, their Feminine Intuition, might be fooled, and by being fooled she may either die or have her reproductive potential compromised for her lifetime by bearing and raising the child of man who is a suboptimal Hypergamous choice for her – a man who exerted his will over her Hypergamous choosing filters.

Making Choices

All of this presumes that a woman is in some way testing for a man’s potential. Even women’s autonomous shit testing is a confirmation of this. So yes, women do look for potential in men. Some better than others. The Hypergamous Filter is an imperfect tool which is exactly why women needed to mystify their feminine intuition in popular understanding. Men had to be kept in the dark as to a woman’s motives because their filters have always been intuitive guesswork. This is a vulnerability that men might exploit – with good Game for instance – if women were ever honest about it.

Not all women can fuck the winners so they have to make calculated bets on men. This is also a reason women rely on social proof and the preselection cues of other women. If other women find a guy to be a ‘good bet’ it provides her a short cut to getting to intimacy. Again, Hypergamy cannot afford to miss out on a socially confirmed ‘good bet’. And yes, this is also a vulnerability in women’s vetting process that men with good Game regularly exploit.

So, the tradeoff is this: when a woman is at her peak sexual market value (SMV) she has the leisure to fuck the winners at the finish line. The more her SMV decays the fewer her options become, and the more likely it is that her necessity requires her to make a ‘bet’ on a man’s future potential. This is the primary reason women opt for the Beta in Waiting around her Epiphany Phase. Necessity forces her to go with good potential.

One of the ways feminism and female-primacy sabotages women’s ability to vet for good potential is in the mythology surrounding their sexual viability as they get older. Social conventions constantly reinforce the false idea that a woman’s SMV is indefinite – and by extension her agency over men should also be indefinite. This is why Blank Slate idealism and Social Constructionism are a preferred mythology for women. Without the Blank Slate a woman would be forced to accept the evolved realities of her sex. The Blank Slate is a prime source of women’s solipsistic denial of her own nature.

Turnkey Men

Do women care about the struggle? Do women ever appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate their own realities? I explored this topic a long time ago in Appreciation and I’m still going with my old assessment, no.

It may be that a man of Rich Cooper’s age, affluence and status only attracts the ‘finish line girls’ because he’s already a made man. He’s an attractive catch because he’s already a proven commodity. Thus, he tends to attract women who are looking for a ‘Turnkey’ man with an established world into which they want to move.

I should also add that most middle aged women, past their sexual prime and well past any long term potential they may’ve had themselves universally look for the ‘Turnkey’ man – once they’re done playing cougar immediately after their divorce. This is another illustration of women’s sexual strategy from the post-Wall side. Alpha Fucks – Beta Bucks never changes, only the context does. Post divorce women go through a second Epiphany Phase right after the divorce. Play cougar and fuck the fun college guys if they can because it’s easy, but be on the lookout for a ‘Turnkey’ winner who’s still ignorant of his Blue Pill conditioning at 45.

Whether it’s a woman in her late 20s or a post-Wall ‘mature woman‘ a man’s struggles to become her ideal is largely irrelevant to her. WHile women are speculators with respect to men it’s the end result of those struggles that’s the operative for her. Almost every woman who disagreed in the Twitter thread above all had some success story of how their brilliant feminine intuition led to them investing in the man they’re so proud to call a husband now. None of them were about how they made a horrible mistake in betting their future on a losing horse. So it’s important to see how the results skew for women.

Women will readily make claims on Relational Equity as an insurance against his leaving her later, once he’s achieved that potential. His struggle and her bearing through it with him is only important in that it produced the positive results she’d hoped for. That ‘dedication’ of seeing it through is her relationship insurance. It’s why women despise and reinforce the “trophy wife” meme. It’s prime indignation to have a man betray her speculation on him by rewarding a younger, hotter, tighter woman at the finish line.

Your struggle is her burden despite you having to bear it under duress of her abandoning you if you failed. Women will never appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate a reality, her sexual/life strategy, she believes was always her due. You just did what you were supposed to do as a man. Women believe it is their due to pair with a man who is worthy of her social media inflated ego. If that sounds harsh remember that women regularly bemoan the lack of men who are their “equal partners” in both money and education well after their prime SMV years are past.

Finally, the reason the finish line metaphor is apt is because more women than ever are postponing marriage in the expectation that ‘Turnkey’ made men will be waiting and available when they hit 31-33 years old, rather than investing in men with good potential in their early to mid 20s. Doing so would mean sacrificing their peak SMV Party Years when someone like Sheryl Sandberg convinces them to wait for the ‘Right Guy‘. It’s simple pragmatism for a woman not to bet her reproductive future on an unproven commodity so early in life. If she does, and it works out for the best, she’s practically sainted by the Sisterhood for her prudence and sacrifice for him. Behind every great man is a woman, right?

But if she chooses unwisely and her life goes to hell she’s wasted her own potential on a bad bet. Social conventions can mitigate this of course. Men can always be blamed for her downfall, but she’s still saddled with the consequences of that bad bet. And it is exactly these consequences of a bad Hypergamous choice that the Feminine Imperative will bend all its power to legally and socially insure against for women (i.e. legal abortion, child support laws, #MeToo, the Duluth Model of feminism).

All of this is why women are pushing their decision to marry, if at all, back to older and older ages. The average age of first marriage today is 27-28 for women, and the overall marriage rate has been in free-fall for decades now. This is why. This evolved dynamic is conflicting with our present age’s social imperatives for women and the falsehoods they are conditioned to believe about their sex from the earliest ages.

If you liked this topic you can also listen to my discussion about it with Donovan Sharpe here:

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

479 comments on “Choose Wisely

  1. ROLLO SAYS, But if she chooses unwisely and her life goes to hell she’s wasted her own potential on a bad bet.

    But we see this all the time. Women are having children with convicted serial killers.

    The young lady says, bring on the bad boys. It’s the young lady’s mother who wants her to marry the doctor.

    In areas where there is less plenty than the West there are women who judge a potential suitor by the number of goats a man has. In the west with it’s ample social safety net a woman can wait and wait to see if she can bag the alpha that makes her moist. Or at least have sex with an alpha and Then make her mother happy by bringing home a doctor.

    The west has set up a very pernicious problem with it’s fat society. We are encouraging women to wait to have kids later in the hopes that the Alpha Doctor will appear. So women wait. Whole nations have women waiting and waiting with rates of 30 percent virginity. And birth rates are declining and declining. Except among the poor who probably should have less kids.

    I think Rollo is writing more in hope of actual woman consideration rather than fact. When women actually think about mating they delay sex and children. When they don’t think in the Cancun Foam pit they have sex and kids.

    Why do we as men overthink this? The answer is as plain as day. Women don’t think about mate suitability for the majority of their fertile years. Any society that wishes to survive the coming wave of over breeding barbarians should definitely have a plan on how to maximize the children that come out of viable females ages 15-35.

    If you have dated a girl on the younger end of that age range you would know and know that you know, they are not really thinking about long term bets in men they have sex with. Up until modern birth control these dynamics were self correcting. More sexually active teenagers got pregnant and became mothers earlier. Therefore balancing the overly educated women.

    Now that’s not happening only the very stupid don’t use modern birth control.

    So only the very stupid are having stupid babies.

    I don’t want to have a pool side view of society collapsing. I dearly want to have this fixed. But we keep assuming women have active brains and are thinking about the future.

    I would most assuredly declare they are not thinking about anything but that Alpha pole they might be able to ride.

  2. @angry gamer…

    you’re 100% right. i have 3 sisters, and they have LOTS of friends. i’m the youngest so i got to hear all their conversations about men their age, dealing with older men, etc., and one thing is true: women are stuck FIRMLY in the present; they give zero fucks about the future overall, and they care even less about their personal future.

    when that hard alpha dick is ready, they jump on it… receive… and live with the consequences. they put their future SQUARELY in the hands of the penis owner-giving him full control of her body, and as a result, giving him control of her future if she gets pregnant, etc.

    all of her plans go out the door if she gets pregnant, and guess what, “he got me pregnant,” i.e., “i was just there… minding my business, and all of a sudden, his penis was in me and he ejaculated. now, he doesn’t want to take responsibility. it’s HIS fault!” i’ve heard this statement COUNTLESS times… over generations of women in my own family who repeat the mistakes of their elders. the man ALWAYS gets them pregnant; they had NOTHING to do with getting naked, sucking dick, holding their own thighs in the air, etc.

    women are worried about themselves in the present moment. they don’t care about you, and they don’t care about the future. it’s all about their current state of mind (feelings) and how the man she’s attracted to makes her feel AT THAT MOMENT. thinking anything past that is a waste of your time.

  3. Geez.

    Angry Gamer and big max (nice avatar names, by the way….It’s never failed to amuse me, the names you guys take. And what ever happened to Softek? I notice Angry Gamer capitalizes and big max uses lower case. Good luck with that.) have you ever heard of the concept of a bottoms up approach to your dealing with reality and inter-sexual dynamics, rather than a top down approach?

    What would you imagine that to be? What would it be to you?

  4. “Do women care about the struggle? Do women ever appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate their own realities? I explored this topic a long time ago in Appreciation and I’m still going with my old assessment, no.”

    Maybe not but women can still create life. I don;t struggle for women i struggle to get better at crafting the ultimate god version of myself.

    Not sure the improvements get better but self assessment and inner growth and change in people who push you to become the ultimate version of who you can become. Art appreciates Art a positive attitude can conquer the deepest realms of madness and failure. Constant rejection and total self awareness have been a struggle but im not giving up and giving in.
    Ill make it…
    she will come along the way

  5. Here’s a very good illustration of this as it plays out in real life. In my Latin dance group there’s now a series of contests which I also entered. Last year I entered with a friend of mine…just a female friend. We practiced and worked hard but a combination of factors including typical politics and various biases of judges who favour their own students we didn’t get into the semi finals. This year she avoided entering with me, joined with another friend and made it to the semi finals.

    Women don’t want potential they don’t want Mr. Right they want Mr Right Now whether that is in a business or social setting or a reproductive romantic one.

    But does this mean my value is poor? Absolutely not. I found a younger better partner this year who shared my interests in competing and did it just because it was fun…I was for her Mr Right Now…

    I wrote recently Of my loser friend who keeps chasing and being rejected by a cluster B Single mom cougar who told him by text “I want to start dating again”. He was crushed. I told him not to respond and to move on for good. He’s stuck rationalising how they were together 4 years etc. I asked him what part of “I want to start dating again” he didn’t understand.

    The adage of having two in the kitty isn’t some narcissistic hedging of your romantic prospects it’s the red pill way of managing this hypergamy.

  6. Women foolishly think men care about their college education and work experience. In reality, it’s a turn-off to men to be out-ranked & out-earned by their female love interests. If women had a better grasp of reality, they would realize that it’s a turn-off to their hind-brain as well. But women post-wall have fewer options and are left to date lesser educated & lesser valued men. Both sides lose after time. It all comes down to women empowerment and sexual liberation making it very easy to be turned-off my these modern overbearing and out-of-touch women.

  7. An interesting aspect of this is that, in terms of Provision capability, Universities are testing the students, to some extent to provide employers with some idea of their respective potential. I’m pretty sure the girls there are also taking note of that.

    Something to be said about college sports as well, I guess.

  8. Yeah, I totally recognise what the post says about world-building if you want to attract a woman into your life. And, boy, how I used to resent it. When I graduated college, I knew it would probably take me ten years of struggle before I could, say, afford to buy and maintain a car. Meanwhile, my female fellow-graduates, who were in the same financial boat as me, were driving their boyfriends’ cars, living rent-free in their boyfriends’ homes if they had to, and sporting tans from foreign holidays their boyfriends had paid for. Even less attractive women had men who stumped up for the occasional dinners and offered some form of safety net, even if it was a bit threadbare by comparison. I had nothing. In Man World, it’s do-or-die.

    Yet now, looking back, it’s clear that being forced to engage with the Struggle was what made me into a man worth respecting. And, if I’m honest, there were many times when I would have taken an easy way out had it been offered me. But when you know for a fact that no-one is going to come along and sweep you off your feet you just get on with it. You learn to master situations and your own fears, not because you want to, but because it’s the only thing that works. You end up developing character, sometimes even despite yourself.

    This is one of the big differences I see between men and women of my own age—that there are relatively few women with ‘character’. Those women who have it always have some shit in their past which they ended up confronting and mastering. And the few men I know who don’t have it whine and complain like … well, like women.

  9. Hypergamy? branch swinging? What a cynical view of women! Women are not nearly as cynical and opportunistic as the manosphere supposes. What women want is love and we are extremely sensitive to its absence. We can tell long before a man even has an inkling that he doesn’t or no longer loves us. Splitting up or divorce frees men to find a woman he does love. This isn’t Machiavellian cunning on women’s part. Love is all important to us and being stuck in a loveless or meh relationship is intolerable to most women.

  10. “What women want is love and we are extremely sensitive to its absence.”

    Note that it talks only about what it wants, not what it gives.

  11. Ex- Cartoonist

    “But when you know for a fact that no-one is going to come along and sweep you off your feet you just get on with it. You learn to master situations and your own fears, not because you want to, but because it’s the only thing that works. You end up developing character, sometimes even despite yourself.”

    The wisdom from Le Chateau…

    “If you are a man, know that the moment you were born the universe had it in for you. The deck was stacked. The deal was raw. Your expendability was programmed into your wet code before you gained self-awareness. The worldscape of genes can rebuild with the seed of one man should catastrophe strike, but each woman lost is a lethal blow to the repopulation project.

    In sober moments free of maudlin introspection, you will understand there is no other game to play save this one. This is why to live as a man is to TAKE what you want. Not to wait for it to be given to you. Because it will never be given. Not to anticipate the empathy of the overseers. Because they will never empathize. Not to expect the coddling of the crowd. Because they will never coddle. Not to assume the wagon circling of kindreds. Because they will never circle for you. You got the short stick, now what? Do you contemplate it and hope for a longer one? No.

    You sharpen it and jab it into the heart of every obstacle that sets itself in your way.”

    Hi Blax!

  12. Stephanie

    The definition of opportunistic is: exploiting chances offered by immediate circumstances without reference to a general plan or moral principle.

    “We can tell long before a man even has an inkling that he doesn’t or no longer loves us.”

    And vice versa, you can tell in an instant when you are attracted/not attracted to a man or want to pursue him for opportunities of reciprocal love/desire.

    Question 1: How is that not hypergamous seeking?

    Question 2: When you can tell in that instant, do you acknowledge that openly and up front, always, right away? Why not?

    The definition of cunning is: having or showing skill in achieving one’s ends by deceit or evasion.

  13. Women and as a result girls too are off the chain, Men and boys are chained to the rails,misinformed and trying to self correct in erroneous directions mainly due to misinformation.

    The best thing about Rollo’s writings IMO is the return to the basic drivers of behavior ,our instinct. This explains the fail-safe mode of humanity.

  14. It’s fascinating to see the Redpill community evolve/move forward and see the different branches that are diverting in different directions , reminds me of Christianity.

    Some truths are a very very bitter pill to swallow and some men just don’t want to go to the logical end with women. If you truly study women with a Redpill lens you will see as others have pointed out above, the majority of women only truly ever live in the moment and very little else when it comes to reproduction/sex, this is the way nature intended it to be, in order to get the best genes for the situation, you are essentially dealing with an animal at that point. Nothing much can be done there, you can rationalize, analyze, etc. but it’s still an animal like thinking and no matter how much work you put in, they are incapable of understanding your thought processes/future oriented thoughts in terms of sexual reproduction/sex. It’s why the endless woman analysis in the Redpill is getting stale, we are in diminishing returns territory here with the endless analyzing, in fact it may just be buffering on the part of the guy in order not acknowledge the animal like nature when it comes to sex.

    Accepting the above will also cut into the profit stream some of these red pill guys have setup with their e-courses, consulting, etc. At first I was critical of JBP not really wanting to talk about women/hypergamy but now I see it’s actually better he not do it, as it’s and endless abyss, and better to focus on other areas of life that are more quantifiable.

  15. Rollo: Statistically, women tend to prefer men who are 5 to 7 years their senior.

    …for long term relationships (which is Rollo’s OP context), not necessarily for STRs. Age differences often don’t matter for women who have STRs…e.g. cougars, sugar babies

    As regards women’s behavior–I see women who behave like they are feral and I see women who behave like they are civilized. Daughter Gamer’s girlfriends have tended to stay married past ten years. Otoh, I see lots of divorced women riding the carousel, too. Women all have the same sexual wiring, but not all women behave the same–training does mitigate the wiring to some extent.

    AWALT is true when applied to women’s sexual wiring…all women are hypergamous. AWALT does not apply to women’s behavior.

  16. @Sentient

    Ugly women are fucked up as much as ugly low-T male metrosexuals. But low-T male metrosexuals can change their situations by improving themselves, while ugly women can never ever ever get high value men.

    The deck is really only stacked against ugly women and against men who abhor self-improvement.

    Sean Penn is ugly when compared with Tom Cruise, but Penn has a beautiful 18 y.o. girlfriend. Why? Penn improved himself.

  17. Another one you’ve knocked out of the park, Rollo!

    The only thing I’d comment about Rich Cooper’s comment is that it is a rule of thumb, just like awalt, not a definitive truth.

  18. Meh on the post…

    I think Palma has a good take – there is stage for women when this kind of explicit thinking takes root. I think too many “manosphere” doods didn’t have success with women when they were young so they always fall into the beta bux kind of analysis.

    And there is way too much “twisdom” being fired off by guys who are now pandering to a paying base of followers, pithy sound bites that are red meat to the base but have not been thought through.

    This Rich Cooper guy, idk much aboot him (he’s canuck) except he seems like a sharp elbowed guy who has the skill to exploit a market. Not saying he is a bad guy or commenting on his overall message. Just a yellow flag… watch these guys in the fancy cars… Tate as well… In fact i will be very sad to start to see Rollo posting Bilzerian style pics like these other guys are all into now…

    There is far more power in a free message than charging guys $18.33 a minute or a monthly subscription.

    “As the exception I have known 4-5 very young women 18/19 get monogamous with very young men and stick with them. In all these cases the men have gone on to be very successful. All of these women were hot but the men were also good looking so It’s debate able whether the women managed to filter the men or just hung onto the hottest man they could.”

    Raises hand… lol Met wife at 21, dropped out of college, stayed with her, got married when she graduated, never had a plan, didn’t have a dime.

    Palma, Alpha Widows are made… they can be made at a young age.

    This guy been dating her since high school…

    “There’s also a conversation about whether or not having a hot young woman for regular sex freed up these men from the hunt for women to focus on their mission and succeed. I think it probably did.’

    Girls were never a conscious pursuit – “I need to get a girl”… They just were there, or showed up. Pursued once spotted sure… But never any thought about the next one. And never much thought about “mission”, just putting one step in front of the other as things unfolded.

    Maybe one could say “well sure everything worked so she’s there”, perhaps. Can’t test that, but whenever there has been a big drop on the roller coaster she’s always been the one to hang on tight.

    Take heart guys… Don’t listen to too much twisdom… Look at the broad picture, then make your conclusions. There are ride or die girls because there are guys who are worth riding or dying for. And those guys may surprise you…

    [inserts Alpha Triad graphic – no cost…]

    1. i will be very sad to start to see Rollo posting Bilzerian style pics like these other guys are all into now…

      Don’t hold your breath.

  19. “Ugly women are fucked up as much as ugly low-T male metrosexuals.”

    False comparison. At the end of the day, when the music’s over, there is a guy left standing.

  20. Rollo,

    Why do you and your supposed “red” pilled group continue to consort with known cuck Jack Murphy?

    Here is the article linked via imgur that he has since deleted admitting to being a self-admitted cuckold?

    Why are you posting his tweets?

    Could you care to explain this?

    I think there are many imposters amongst us.

  21. @michaelangelo

    Honestly this is the first I hear of that. Fuck that guy. He’s a cautionary tale.

  22. Curious and please elaborate: what does what Jack Murphy do/did/say have to do with Rollo?

    You posted something from 2015. How many men here even heard of read this?

    I take Rollo on his words alone. Never judge him for attempting to connect with other men to advance knowledge and help other men. Rollo isn’t Jack Murphy. Rollo can’t answer for Jack Murphy.

    Go ask Jack Murphy.

  23. Good analysis on the comments, each situation is individual as Sentient pointed out.

    As Blax pointed out Rollo is not Jack Murphy, so he cannot answer for him, Jack’s actions no longer match his message in terms of Mr. Murphy, the Redpill is going to splinter into the commercial and non-commercial version. There are some solid guys that Rollo is connected with , Rich Cooper is one of them, while I personally don’t enjoy Rich’s delivery he is straightforward and upfront about what he is doing, if you listen to him, he makes it clear he is looking out for himself first and does want to be compensated for his time/work, I don’t mind that all and it’s clear and concise.

    Other guys(not Rollo), wrap themselves in ideology/red pill while selling conference tickets/e-courses/consulting while saying it’s not about the money. As JBP pointed out about himself, some of these guys think they are the wave instead of simply being on the wave.

    Men must put in the work and e-courses/consulting/conferences can’t do it for you, you gotta get out there and lift the weight, create the discipline, approach and live your life in as fearless manner as possible.

  24. “This guy been dating her since high school…”

    again Sentient drop top material

    hailey wants to be a puppy…

    but she’s not.

    active on gram = seeking better offers
    pic 1 = she looks at camera, he looks at her. she leans out, he leans in. she hold his head like baby, he appear to almost have hoverhand instead of gripping that ass like he about to tear into it. she physically above him
    pic 2 = she lean out, he lean in. she sways hips away and pinches knees, he has faggy limp right wrist. her neck stiff while grabbing his like a scruff
    his gram is private. why the fuck would you have private set when it’s for promotion

    she needs him less than he needs her = power imbalance

    when she puts on the collar and leash, it’s because she wants to. and that negates the whole thing

    would definitely repeatedly bang haileygirl really fucking hard

  25. Missing a post from the new Andriod Tor browser… hmmmm

    I had to google Bilzerian. I mean you just have to forget these trust fund guys. He shouldn’t be in the manosphere as an example of any kind. You don’t need any game when you have that kind of wealth and lifestyle, poon fight each other for access to your doorstep.

    Let’s be clear, Bilzerian is only an example of the kind of Finstagram marketing all of these other guys seem to be copying these days, so to delude their followers into paying for subscriptions etc…

    [Coop’s charging $1,100 an hour for chat… Nice work if you can get it.]

  26. I met my now wife when she was 19,. I was 22. Assume what you will about my present options, her options in the kill or be killed Tinder SMP,

    IMO, it’s your choice to turn women en masse into the enemy or not.

    If I’m to believe women are the enemy, if the intersexual dynamic is truly a fixed pie as Rollo writes, then what I’ve experienced is one-off and ride or die is a myth.

    I’m not jaded enough to think that.

    I’ve an idea what’ll get guys laid better.

  27. Rollo I agree 100% that women do not and can not appreciate the sacrifices a man makes and the struggles he endures. As you have stated a man must make himself his mental point of origin. Without this a man will surrender or make the ultimate sacrifice to escape the pain inflicted by the feminine imperative. Feral indeed

  28. By my book Rollo and Rich are both right. Rollo admits as much indirectly — he wants to discredit the “fuck the winners” accusation but continually acknowledges they kind of have a point. Of course women don’t have an infalllible filtering mechanism. Most things exist on a spectrum. The main difference I see is that Rich is talking about women capitalizing on a beta bucks strategy and Rollo refers to both. Whether they’re hanging around on spring break for the guy shoulder pressing the keg or in the dining room at the Waldorf, they’re both finish lines of a sort.

    The fuck the winners line comes from a place of exasperation, that hypergamy gives no quarter. Whether women are correct in their filtering or not, they still want the absolute best they can get given their circumstances. They’re not looking to cut any deals (unless they’re playing both ends of the strategy).

    Jack only reinforces Rich’s point in pointing to the gobs of girls scooping up guys at elite universities. That’s a type of finish line too, right? Prestige university grads aren’t guaranteed to succeed, but they already have a much greater chance than joe blow. People who have gone to elite unis know that the hardest part is getting in. Those places want their students and grads to succeed. And the guys who got in were likely well connected, very bright, or very hard workers. Plenty of filtering went on before those girls ever showed up.

    The key part Rollo covers is the trend of later marriage. Careers, birth control, and social acceptance have allowed women to push their deal closing later and later while they ride, and that’s understandably frustrating for guys deprived of a cheerleader and muse in their early careers, guys who instead get competition for their breadwinning. He also could have touched on choice addiction and the tighter screen women have on their filters in their prime, and well past. I’m not advocating for giving up here, but the finish line phrasing is shorthand for a real phenomenon, and dissecting it as “not all spectators!” smacks of tone policing.

  29. So, the tradeoff is this: when a woman is at her peak sexual market value (SMV) she has the leisure to fuck the winners at the finish line. The more her SMV decays the fewer her options become, and the more likely it is that her necessity requires her to make a ‘bet’ on a man’s future potential.

    Since most American women, in general, between the ages of 18-28 aren’t marrying at all and are “doing other things*”, and since the majority of women who do agree to finally marry are 28+ in age, it suggests that ANY men who do get married in this day in age are not her first choice.

    They are not even her 2nd choice.
    Or even her 3rd or even 4th choice.
    One could safely deduce that ALL (or the vast majority of) brides today are settling. And not just settling, but settling HARD.

    Her very decision to marry at all is a compromise. She’s taking a haircut on him. Some will be shorter haircuts than others. But it is a haircut. A loss. An “L”.

    This might also suggests that even the beta males i waiting who eventually became qualified, good enough “good bets” for these women, are at best a consolation prize for her. Never her ideal consolidation.

    If true, then that’s not a very inspiring thought for a man’s future, even for your least idealistic, most realistic, and more Red Pill-aware grooms out there.

    In fact, it’s downright depressing that the best you can hope for is to be her sloppy 92nd, or 37th if your lucky.

    *- namely earning degrees, racking up massive student loan and consumer debts, starting careers, working 50 hour weeks and having lots of sex with rosters of different men.

  30. coders could easily make app that analyzes all pictures of desired subjects (most likely male and female but could work for dom/sub, more/less invested party etc) to determine the power and attraction dynamics

    using objective data points that rely on static pictures of body language would be better than using emotion to evaluate whether or not you were choosing wisely in making any human resources investments

    could also be used to flag warning signs when significant other’s body language changes at significant level

    a monthly subscription to have algos monitor social media feeds/cloud accounts

    “warning: rule x subsection y violation: that holiday photo where you dressed up in matching outfits with your wife and kids signals beta bux. remove and destroy”


    if people choose wisely the economy would fucking collapse

    our world is built on poor decisions and suckers being born every minute

    also, women are dogs

    please don’t close the comments section Rollo. much more learning to do

  31. “So, the tradeoff is this: when a woman is at her peak sexual market value (SMV) she has the leisure to fuck the winners at the finish line.”

    Not really.

    Most 36 year old peak Alphas are hunted to near extinction, long off the market, family, kids, mortgages, happy sex life and unavailable to 21 y.o. peak SMV women.

    Peak SMV women aren’t even considering peak SMV guys as the age difference puts the two groups in different cohorts, different value systems. They’re running in different circles, the peak Alpha tending to his chosen legacy.

    I’m of the opinion that a lot of guys here and manosphere wide devalue the concept of monogamous nuclear family as it limits the man’s sexual options.(he must be stupid or fooled or churchianity driven) while likewise criticising women for choosing sexually loose and unsustainable.lifestyles.

    The SMV is bizarre at times, I admit. Women should be scoring men to complement their lives but aren’t and they are generally miserable and confused. Men should be scoring women to complement their lives without the tedious social expectations and they’re anxious too.

    People don’t prefer to be incomplete, but remain so as to drop the transactional AF/BB approach to understanding each other is too big a leap of faith.

    All the anxiety and peace of mind alike is chosen.

  32. “Rollo confirms black pill yet again despite being against it”.


    When girls are in their prime (17-25), they don’t really care how far along you are in the race, just as long as you’ve got (L)ooks+game, they’ll fuck you.

    Post-Prime/Wall girls (28+), do place more importance on who’s leading the race, so they’ll head to the finish line and make themselves available to those with (M)oney and (S)tatus.

    *in general. inb4 examples of a girl in her prime fucking an ugly guy with Status and a post-prime girl fucking a broke good looking guy.

  33. From my experience they (wimen) start out with their sights lined out on “the winners” and as the paretto principle plays out it becomes painfully obvious to that 80% that they will have to settle for potential or spend more nights alone in the dark woods with that (I can only guess) empty yearning for the masculine.

    At some point they will reinvent the guy they settled for into something real or imagined alpha or jump to the next.

    There is some irony in that if she lands Alpha she will attempt to Betaize him and if she lands beta she will push him to the breaking point or Alpha up.

    They (wimenz) need to do this for their own social standing,they will start changing the story to fit their needs in a fake it type of part. Convincing themselves and their friends that the Beta they settled for is in fact and optimal choice. The kicker is when circumstances change that warrants a new optimization,so men should vet for being first choice and not settled for or at least act as if.

  34. “When girls are in their prime (17-25), they don’t really care how far along you are in the race….”

    So what you’re saying is girls fuck good looking/physically-ordered, clever/novel men?

    Yeah girls fuck. Like all the time.


    The point,i IMO, though, is she willing to carry his baby to term and does his age, marital status matter for that to occur?

    Is it a failure of a man’s AF if he can’t make it occur?

    You know, women do choose to fuck outside the AF/BB spectrum just as some women choose to not divorce and work it out for reasons beyond RP thought.

    That is real desire.

  35. Guys here are giving inherited wealth a bad taste and it’s totally a stupid thing to do.

    Getting something from nothing and no one is a nice superhero origin story, but there’s a whole lot of life to experience and people who do things you can’t that exist in the world.

    Telling yourself getting wealthy is against the rules is dumb and inconsiderate of a future where you just might be closer to your goals if only you hadn’t said that stupid thing to that one person that one time.

    Don’t be a hater. If you’re in denial of how the board looks, you can’t move the pieces.

  36. I happened to come to this blog after hearing the name Rollo mentioned as the godfather of the manosphere after stumbling on a you tube video. Can’t miss these redpill you tube videos; they are all over the damn place. What amazes me is that men are amazed and shocked by the nature of women. I’ve always have access to good looking women from a young age due to good looks (was also a little arrogant ) and even more so now. ( looks money, still arrogant, no apologies)

    I’ve come from a good looking family. Growing up as a boy, I’ve witnessed my uncles, cousins, fucked multiple women at the same time, even when broke. As for the older relatives 50 plus most had money and fucked younger good looking chicks 18 – 25 on a regular. Lots of them just paid for it straight up. They didn’t give a fuck.

    Why is it that in the manosphere a lot of so called redpill men constantly bemoan female hypergamy ( which is natural based on experience) but never ask themselves ” How do I effectively exercise my sexual prime directive by fucking the most good looking chicks i possible can?

    Looks, dominance etc is all well and good, but why limit yourself when you get older. Instead use your money to fuck the young sexy escorts . Seems to me that for all intents and purposes, most men red pill mgtow etc have a deep need for love and in their subconscious believe in that one special person. ( that is not natural) Ironically with regards to SMV, when you get in a relationship and are constantly improving yourself as a man, your “girl or wife” is going downhill. Basically you are putting more money and effort into a falling stock that is headed fast to zero. Don’t send good money after bad.

    I’ve always looked out for self. its a natural feeling. Maybe if you all were a little more carnal and see and accept nature as it is, you will have less worries about women.

  37. @Seth, No one “bemoans” female Hypergamy in the Red Pill. We acknowledge it for what it is, an evolved aspect of female nature and the motivating factor of women’s sexual strategy. The children who “bemoan” it are in the Black Pill and MGTOW communities because most like to reinforce their self-defeat in a sexual marketplace they can’t or wont compete in.

    Read this before you post your inevitable response:

    @Jay, The “Black Pill” communities are just the evolution of the True Forced Loneliness guys. They understand their inability to compete in the SMP and would rather wallow in their nihilistic defeatism than see the Red Pill for the opportunities it represents. There is no Black Pill. There are just guys who never cross the abyss from Blue Pill idealism to the opportunities of Red Pill awareness.

  38. @Palma

    You wouldn’t want to see your son doing a Bilzerian move? Destiny Fulfilled.

  39. @MichaelAngeloGloboHomo, I understand you’re likely part of GLOs sperg army who are review bombing The Rational Male on Amazon now – a book whose links have been a part of TRP for as long as it’s existed – but I’ll give you a response to your disingenuous pandering.

    In Jack’s past he’s been all about the same ‘poly’ lifestyle I’ve come out against in several posts you’ve never bothered to read here. I’ve locked horns with him on several occasions about it, and particularly when I went to war with Dr. Geoff Miller about his own self-confirming cuckolding. And that’s another incident you and the Globohomos who’ve shat all over the TRP sub conveniently ignore.

    The question you need to ask is why your autistic leader has such a mad-on for the 21 Convention that he obsessively fixates on it and its speakers (many of which I personally suggested speak)? If Jack’s being a cuckold bothers you so much why haven’t you called in to The Red Man Group to call us out for it in the last month?

    Because you’re cowardly children who just want attention.

    TRP has become increasingly inbred since the quarantine and its long-time mods realize this. They see the problem, but they don’t want to talk about it. Back in 2015 I went to war with Roosh because he threw TRP under the bus and then tried to reclaim it and put his logo on it. I did that because at the time I felt TRP was a positive community of guys sharing ideas and Roosh was profiteering from his self-serving “schism”. None of your sperg army seems to remember that. You don’t like Anthony, fine take that up with him. You think Jack’s a cuck? Yeah, probably so, and I’ve put my nuts on the anvil to say so. But it’s easier to make up memes that 4Chan would think were created by special needs children than actually call in and air your grievances like men. Because you aren’t men, you’re retarded children.

    Your bigger problem isn’t me or the 21 Convention – it’s the short-bus Secret King Gamma you look up to who wants to ‘play war’ with people who’ve actually built something beyond a Reddit profile and 20 Twitter egg accounts to troll from. When Reddit kills TRP – and if WordPress deleted CH Reddit will delete the sub – it’ll be because it turned into the ideological cesspool courtesy of your dyslexic army commander.

  40. @seth10

    “Instead use your money to fuck the young sexy escorts”

    Sounds like your rambling comment can be summed up right there. You don’t have to justify banging hookers if that works for you. Because redpilled men dont care who other men fuck. But not all men get the same satisfaction out of that. That kind of comment is also typical of the alt-right who are known to hijack manosphere blogs with the deflection of just bang a hooker once a month so we can get that behind us and then we can transition to ranting about those who oppress you.

  41. “Guys here are giving inherited wealth a bad taste and it’s totally a stupid thing to do.”

    I’m not against it per se as the wealth isn’t at issue generally. The issue is how unearned earned wealth recalibrates a man’s intention.

    Millionaire Next Door

    “Being wealthy can have an adverse impact on children, and the authors found that children of the affluent tend to be below average. As an example of why this is so, consider an affluent couple that generously offers to pay their newlywed child’s mortgage. The child will likely move into a house they couldn’t otherwise afford in a wealthier neighborhood. Rather than saving money, the child will then spend more money on cars, private schools, etc. to be able to keep up with the neighbors. This is one example of how children can become dependent on gifts from their wealthy parents.

    The authors research found that leaving children a large inheritance often did more damage than good. They suggest that millionaires who would like to leave their children an inheritance should do so very carefully. For example, inheritance can be placed in a trust and not released until certain milestones are met such as achieving a graduate degree or turning a certain age (like 35 years old). This can ensure that children don’t rely on the inheritance when they’re young and develop bad habits. Rather than giving monetary gifts, paying for enabling gifts like an education can result in greater benefits for the heirs.”

  42. “When girls are in their prime (17-25), they don’t really care how far along you are in the race, just as long as you’ve got (L)ooks+game, they’ll fuck you.”

    “When girls are in their prime (17-25), they don’t really care how far along you are in the race, just as long as you’ve got game, they’ll fuck you.”


    I’ll bet J hasn’t done cold approach in his life–I’ll bet that he always waits for girls to signal interest before he approaches them. That’s never been how I rolled. Sure, sometimes girls signal interest in me before I approach, but that’s usually after I’ve interacted with several girls already.

  43. “People born to real wealth drive beige Camrys and don’t have Instagram accounts.”

    Yeah, if they start with nothing and then earn their wealth, they drive beat up station wagons.

    Funnily enough, I don’t have an Instagram account and I recently was driving a silver Camaro convertible rental which cost $37, lol, and I got upgraded and given discounts by the woman agent just because. But I wasn’t born to real wealth, so that’s why I don’t drive a beige Camry.

  44. @Eh

    “For example, inheritance can be placed in a trust and not released until certain milestones are met such as… turning a certain age (like 35 years old). This can ensure that children don’t rely on the inheritance when they’re young and develop bad habits.”

    I’m against agressive inheritance taxes. But I’ve seen people fall into inheritance even after age 50, quit their day job, buy celebrity house in most expensive neighborhood, ultra-luxury car etc. Living a lifestyle the deceased family member never lived. Bascially acting like a chump with money with a target painted on his back for other people to take advantage of. Yes this is the mindset that wifes up a high maintenance woman who cucks him and he takes her back in exchange for sex once a week in the missionary position.

  45. “Instead use your money to fuck the young sexy escorts .”

    Because the AMOUNT of money some hot young Russian girl will take won’t be enough if it’s coming from some fat Harvey Weinstein-looking loser than from some rich rock-star type.

    Hypergamy is a biological driver and not based on material comforts per se.

    The Cave man with the biggest club or coolest looking lion skin robe vs the young, jacked cave man with no cave of his own—nail-biter there on who’s gonna get Wilma Flintstone in her prime.

    Guys who call out these Red Pill pillars don’t go deeper into the evolutionary psychology behind it…they simply look at their own family and say “No one does that in my social circle…must be bullshit”.

  46. “Instead use your money to fuck the young sexy escorts .”

    Sure, Seth, anyone can bang hookers. You pay, you bang. And? So what? You achieved nothing but an orgasm. She’s thinking of anything but you when you’re there — it’s basically expensive masturbation into a female who wishes she were anywhere else but fucking you.

    Some guys are into that, whatever floats your boat. Red pill guys seek desire sex — sex where women want to fuck you, not where women are fucking you because you’re a paying client. Anyone can do that — and, so, again, so what?

  47. Inherited money/inherited social status sounds like the best topic for the next rational male book. Maybe Rollo already covered it in book 3, I’m gonna order that tonight.

    We’ve already pissed off the weak, ugly, and fearful.

    Might as well finish it off and go for the poor and unconnected.

    These people aught to know what the Red Pill let ME know.

    “We pick our own Hell”.

  48. Yollo

    Lol. For some ( that don’t have ” money ” ) that lack can become a crutch and an excuse. ” Well yeah, if I had a billion dollars like that guy….”.

    I don’t hate on or count other people’s money, but I’m not impressed by either tons of cash ( fiat most likely ) or a severe lack of it. Just the thought of either can paralyze people sometimes.

    I guess depending on what a man wants, he should realize that he can have it. Money greases the skids, that’s for sure, but determination, acquired skills and motivation are absolutely winners.

    I don’t know much about boats and shit, but I knew a fellow once that told me he was building a boat. A 20 footer if I remember correctly ( like I said, I don’t know about boats so a lot of what he told me escaped me even as he was telling me..). The talked a lot about ” teak “. Says when it’s done he was going to sail it to South Carolina.

    He’d been telling me about this boat he was building for like 3 years. I was like ” yeah, uh-huh “. He came by with his dilapidated F250 pickup and asked me to install a heavy duty hitch on it. He’d decided against the 5th wheel thing. I’m still like ” okay…uh-huh “.

    Then, he came by with his 100% handbuilt boat, and it was one of the most gorgeous hand built things I’d ever seen. Funny, he didn’t particularly look like a guy that could do something like that. I must have asked him a dozen times, ” you sure you built this? Then he went aboard and retrieved his photo scrap book of him constructing it. 3 years worth of photos. He said it was water tight and sea worthy, so he was getting ready to sail away.

    And he did. Lol, and it didn’t sink ( said he’s spend month learning how to caulk and rope(?) the joints and he was confident ).

    Men are far more capable than they may think.

    But sure, money’s nice.

    I happen to like Bilzerian not because he’s wealthy, but because he looks like he has fun. I’m not impressed by the women always in his videos and Instagram, because money makes shit happen sometimes and blurs what’s really happening, but he looks like a guy that just said ” fuck it, I’m gonna drive it until the wheels fall off “.

    Hearts attacks, steroids, and god knows what else, isn’t forcing him from his chosen path.

    I might not think it’s smart, but there’s no way I can hate on it.



    Lol, there are guys that are just ” thousandaires ” that manage to party until they have heart attacks.

  49. This is a touchy subject. I simply thought I’d mention it before it got buried under waves of insecurity and bias. I hear someone hating on money and I think of all the time I wasted being at odds with all the nice qualities I wanted to have in my life.

    I’m glad you were able to appreciate my words, Blax.

  50. @Rollo,

    I’ve read your link and agree with most of your points because that is how it is. The truth is the truth regardless. However, after we cut through the bullshit and go right down to the core what is the natural end result of this male-female dynamic? What benefits does a man achieve in subjugating his natural desires and pairing with one woman as opposed to having almost unlimited options till the day he dies? At the end of the day, lots of supposedly “redpilled ” men still seem still to subjugate themselves to societal programming, whether its based on moralistic indoctrination or still adhering to an old set of principals they lived by from youth.

    If the real reason for learning to become a better man in all aspects ( which I agree with) is to keep and maintain one woman as opposed to having AND exercising other options, then as a man you are not fulfilling your basic prime directive. Ironically, you would have succeeded in that said woman fulfilling hers. ( A strong masculine successful man who maintains several points above her attractiveness, even as hers decline.

    To me it doesn’t make sense.

  51. @ walawala

    You are assuming it is an either or scenario. Sure, Wilma Flintstone will fuck young muscle caveman with no cave in her prime, but she still has to eat and get her hair done. If she wants money and Fred doesn’t have it she’ll fuck his old boss Mr. Slate for it if she needs it that badly. So too will Betty. They just won’t tell. Eventually the young muscular cave man with no cave will become an old caveman with no cave. Mr. Slate will still fuck Pebbles when she turns 18 if she needs the money bad enough too. I’ve seen hot good looking women 18-25 fuck old fat men for money. Happens all the time. ( Some of the women were my very cousins) They just wont broadcast to the world. Do you think that young hot Russian escort whose getting paid $300/hr and needs the money is going to pass up an overnight opportunity because the man is fat and bald? Maybe if he’s smelly …maybe

  52. “If the real reason for learning to become a better man in all aspects ( which I agree with) is to keep and maintain one woman as opposed to having AND exercising other options, then as a man you are not fulfilling your basic prime directive. Ironically, you would have succeeded in that said woman fulfilling hers. ( A strong masculine successful man who maintains several points above her attractiveness, even as hers decline.


    As opposed to having none and being chosen for what could be nefarious reasons, leaving you open more to the wraths of her hypergamy.

    This is why I stress ( and I think Rollo would agree ) that men exercise those ” options ” as much as humanly possible before possibly deciding to make another kind of ” choice ” Your basic prime directive is to have sex and procreate. Most often the ” sex ” comes about minus the ” procreation “. You have a sex drive for other reasons outside of busting your nuts, so to speak. ( Hit it Eh!!! Lol. ). That drive serves a larger purpose biologically.\

    Again, choice. You can only satisfy that biological drive and not reproduce at all. Or, you can reproduce and walk away from the resulting offspring. Or, you can choose to do something else.

    But, you will always still have choices to exercise your options any time you want, or as much as your SMV/Skillset will allow. Married 20+ years and I still have as many options/choices as ever. Thinking you don’t have any other options or choices is blue pill conditioned. You’re never stuck. You choose.

    Having lots and lots and lots and lots of sex can assist in your formulation of those choices. Banging a girl or two and then opting for ” The One ” is misguided for the majority of men ( not every single one…obviously ).

    Learning to become a better man has nothing directly to do with women, per se. The becoming better part comes along with having testicles and testosterone. Women are a side benefit.

    It. Ain’t. About. Her.

    Learning to become a better man should also assist you in making better choices. Because choices matter.

    So pick: Bang 20, 30, 40, 100, 200….. however many women you want to and see what you think about what your prime directive is. If you are a strong and masculine man, then you are still going to be a strong and masculine man, with or without Her.

  53. I’m not sure what you are rambling on about Seth10.

    A man has free will and choice and options.

    What is “natural” is not always what some have preference for, nor are willing to build their foundation on.

    What are you actually advocating for?

    And what is natural? Is it a compulsion?

  54. @seth. thank you for that comment. You’ve just confirmed alpha fux beta bux also know as…..hypergamy.

    A women’s whole mating strategy is based on making sure her needs are met.

    A man using his money and thinking the Russian model is banging him because she wants to bear his children…is deluding himself.

    The Black Pill isn’t a sexual strategy it’s the absence of one…

  55. @seth10

    “A women’s whole mating strategy is based on making sure her needs are met”.

    when a girl’s broke, she’ll contact old fat rich guy when she needs money.

    when a girls feelings are hurt, she’s gonna contact billy beta when she needs emotional support.

    when a girls horny, she’s gonna contact alpha stud when she needs sex.

    who do you want to be?

  56. @Palma
    I move in the circles of people who made their own money, and so far it’s destroyed all the kids it’s touched by rendering them either totally commercially useless or killed them via cars or drugs.

    There was a study concluding that 70% of wealthy families lose their fortune in the 2nd generation. By the 3rd generation, this number goes up to 90%.

    […] among the most compelling causes are younger family members who are ill-prepared or unwilling to shoulder the responsibility of wealth stewardship. They have grown up with plenty of money and are a step or two removed from the work ethic and drive of the people who made it for them. […]

    According to Mr. McCullough, almost as much time and effort should be spent in preparing the heirs to receive the wealth as actually investing and managing it. […]

    “Many things are solved by time and experience,” says Mr. McCullough, “but money and often power short-circuit those natural consequences. So parents end up using money, out of love, to help their children avoid the natural, character-building consequences of life.”

    Basically this:
    – Hard times create strong men.
    – Strong men create good times.
    – Good times create weak men.
    – Weak men create hard times.

    You need to make your own money.

    A good friend of mine received two grand from his father on his 15th birthday and was told to learn how to invest. 10 years later the guy’s passive income is sufficient to pay for his basic needs. But he’s got this “work ethic and drive” so he’s still very active, even spends a few days a week in a regular 9-5.

  57. @j
    when a girls feelings are hurt, she’s gonna contact billy beta when she needs emotional support.
    when a girls horny, she’s gonna contact alpha stud when she needs sex.

    Speaking of which…

    My wife’s friend from school, a single mother (interesting enough, the guy had started another family while still living with her expecting the baby, so not everything’s as stereotypical as the manosphere wants it to be) has quite a few orbiters. Some good looking, but as beta as they come.

    She’s in her 30s. Fit body, attractive face. Could easily get an alpha stud should she wish to go out and hunt for one. He wouldn’t even know she’s a mother nor how old she is.

    Instead, she ends up banging one of the orbiters. Not frequently, too much of a beta. Only when she has an itch to scratch. Eventually, he gets her pregnant. Oh the drama. She doesn’t want his baby and removes it.

    So let’s be clear. Banging doesn’t make a man an alpha.

    I don’t know about waiting at the finish line and fucking the winners. Yes, they don’t want the struggle (sure, they may want to hear about the hero’s journey, from the safe place). Yes, they prefer winners over losers (which in fact is more of a state of mind for men). But that’s about it.

    My reference experience aligns with what Palma and Sentient write. Women want to feel something strong and they want to avoid risk. The rest is just a consequence of where they are in life.

  58. @IRL

    “Could easily get an alpha stud should she wish to go out and hunt for one”

    Perhaps I should have emphasized that I was referring to the 17-25 target market. You know? the ones still in their ‘party years’ seeking to fulfill their short term sexual needs.

    Your 30-35 year old single mommy, isn’t as interested in satisfying her short term sexual needs. She’s in a phase (epiphany?) of her life where she’d rather hold out for a rich high status beta provider winner to take care of her and her kid. But naturally she still wants sex. So she’ll fuck that good looking convenient safe guy in her social circle in the meantime.

    “Banging doesn’t make a man an alpha”.

    I don’t think here is saying that having sex automatically makes you an alpha male lol.

  59. @ Cat

    “…while millions of other Americans eat out of garbage cans.”

    Hyperbolize much? Tone down the battle-axe and you might get laid more, babe. Well-sexed women flatly can not get up the rage to write that angrily.

    Wear a skirt, butch.

    @ ASD

    How did the convo come up that you are a self-made man (or did she intuit it?) and how did you convey it smoothly to get the upgrade? Masterful work. I’d really like to know the blow-by-blow details of your conversation with her.

    @ j

    “Perhaps I should have emphasized that I was referring to the 17-25 target market. You know? the ones still in their ‘party years’ seeking to fulfill their short term sexual needs”

    Thanks for confirming your slavish devotion to all “party years” women slavishly devoted to their short term sexual needs. That is why you are yet an kj incel. You are fooling no one. You literally parrot shit for the masses without posting anything novel.

    Speaking of….both colleges are about to let out soon around here and the table next to me tonight has 6 college girlfriends chatting about boys and love and how they wrangle with it all…they want something but are unsure how to get it. I approach, chit chat and directly then open with this question:

    1) How do you deal with text game and how do you know if a guy is worth replying to…i.e. what does he do to make you respond or not?

    It took a minute as half DID NOT know what text game is…they were baffled or stupid or such…and and the other half was clearly knowledgeable about it. (There was more to it said so don’t overanalyze what isn’t written here j). The latter half responded that the guy mustn’t reply too much or too quickly and they generally play it by feelz. The former half was interested but unsure how to talk to potential guys…they are literally too insecure to know what their short term sexual or otherwise needs are…they have no fucking clue. They are waiting for the right guy with the right look and feel and novelty to make sense to them and even then have guarded their hearts so that all in the realm of love is to be considered suspect until proven otherwise without doubt.

    It was fun as some got into the convo quickly and others….especially the prettiest….said little to none..

    This idea of “party years” is true in so far as a guy accepts women PREFER to be adrift and fucking with abandon…with zero consequence of it all…which is an incel dreamworld where all women are just one more stack away from dropping their pants. Sells books and other what-not.

    It just isn’t true. Young women actually do care about their short and long term sustainability though in a world which refuses to allow them some guidance…they’ll shit test the hell out of everything in sight…until they find something they can find faith in.

    Give them that faith and you can have all the pussy you want.

    j, you are a not-laid gamma faggot.

  60. It’s using the diminutive of the same name in a different language this time. Ignore it until the aisle gets cleaned up.

    Or, I suppose, shut down.

  61. All the money in the world won’t buy you an ounce of water in Hell.

    “Making money” is most Americans raison d’etre; and thus the Living Death that Modern Life is for Most People is normalized.

    “Slavery never ended; it was simply expanded to include all the races”

    Someone should give that guy a posthumous job with the Times; he could go places…

  62. @Palma
    I think this is the rub. The education of the children has to begin before the parents have even made the money.

    That may seem the easiest path. But it wouldn’t explain the remaining <10% of family businesses lasting 3+ generations.

    Like seduction, this has been studied and a lot has been said about it.

    Look here for instance:
    Perpetuating the Family Business: 50 Lessons Learned from the Long-Lasting, Successful Families in Business (John L Ward)

    Ward looks for answers in family-run companies that have stood the test of time, among them Ford Motors, Marriott Hotels, and Levi-Strauss. From these examples he culls fifty lessons for building and sustaining a family business.

    Some of the tips are just plain good business, such as creating clear and agreed-upon rules of governance. But, says Ward, “the most critical issues facing business-owning families are family-based issues more than they are business-based issues.” These issues include shaping a business that conforms to the family’s values, dealing with family feuds, and developing and encouraging children to follow in their parents’ footsteps. Consider this: The head of the family business not only has to keep the business healthy, but must also keep the family healthy. That could be the toughest job in business.

    Ward’s book is available here:

  63. J

    “So she’ll fuck that good looking convenient safe guy in her social circle in the meantime.”

    So will millions of high school and college girls this very weekend. Social circle is still the top way young people experience sex.

    Don’t let your former experiences occlude this reality.

  64. +1

    You have to have observed young girls over time to understand what they do wrt sex. Most aren’t randomly banging strangers.

    To find the one’s most likely to do so, hunt in clubs and bars. But recognize the bigger landscape.

  65. @All – I never went back to my last comment on the previous post as I don’t give a shit what any of you had to say about that commentary. Weird mentions of Parakeets don’t make any sense to me…

    The Red Pill world is becoming a caricature of itself as various voices monetize and we founder. Fyi, it’s not really our fault. The level of subversion and disinformation in our society’s institutions essentially quarantined us so we can really only have a personal experience of the Red Pill, or if we have a collective one, it’s done in obscurity and anonymity which is really just a signal of our complete suppression. This subversion has been carried out for 100 years and has known origins, but it’s been hidden and wiped from approved histories.

    Re: Rollo – As Rollo implies by his own characterizations, the entire RP world is becoming a fucking joke. I was kind of happy to see him go after those “retarded children” as they need to be shit on nonstop, but gosh, he sounded a lot like me when I get going on those frauds and fucking morons and gibbering imbeciles peddling nonsense all across the Red Pill “manosphere” now. Hehe, Rollo – fuck those punks where they breathe. They aren’t fit to shine your shoes.

    Re: The OP – Palma, Sentient, Walawala killing it as usual. I was shocked, @Ehintellect actually started off a comment in an interesting way but it didn’t take long for it to collapse into more buffering and mental masturbation.

    This post? A bit too rigid. The point to understand is simple. Hypergamy isn’t an evil impulse, rather, it’s identical to the mating drive in the back of male brains morally. It just is. If you are angry at hypergamy, or think women consciously engage it as a plot to fuck you over is to put yourself on the same level as conspiracy theory peddling third wave feminists. We evolved to this place, these behaviors and traits and impulses evolved over very long periods of time and aren’t strategies. Also, as with all behavior and humanity, there is variance. There is also an environment that has extreme effect on behavior as context is decisive for humans.

    Re: SJF – He asks a very smart and simple question. Are you doing this bottom up or top down? Top down means you are sitting around gassing about meta-analyses and invest huge amounts of energy on the political/sociological versus examining your own life and behavior. I did this myself, and in a way my shift away from that is what I continuously try to communicate here. The only value to having this knowledge is to change your own behavior. Remember, you don’t have to fuck every woman on earth, you just need to get one today. You don’t need to be Dan Bilzerian, you just need to save a bit of money on your grocery bill or car repair so you can accelerate your capital acquisition. You need to know how to navigate the world at your feet, not the meta world you imagine that doesn’t even actually exist.

    Work on your world and your life. Apply Red Pill knowledge to aid you in your quest for meaning and creating and power and success and ass and everything else in life. There are always little hacks and shortcuts, there is always possibility. Hint: This mindset is like catnip for women. The 1000 yard stare of a man with a plan and the power to see it through will cause much pussy moistening, even from a distance. Using the great Red Pill knowledge Rollo dispenses to give up and become resigned is exactly the wrong reaction. It’s just data and insight about how the “hamster” works. Women are not monsters, and in many ways todays world is a giant mindfuck for them too. Ever watch a woman you care about hit “the Wall”? Think that’s easy? Think that the moment she realizes she wasted her pussy and youth on casual sex and that now all she’s got are regrets, an STD, an abortion and the leftover, mostly loser men to choose from? I have. It’s just as agonizing as any man’s red pill awakening.

    For me, the process started by taking women off their pedestal and being angry with them but I had to get out of that as it was killing me. Game had me see just how self-destructive and idiotic that was, among other things. Banging numerous young hotties taught me that they are human beings. They have impulses just like I do, wrt attraction, interest, arousal. I don’t curse them, just as I don’t curse the sun rising in the east every morning. Rather, I try to enjoy the sun and get a tan…

  66. @ Blaximus,

    You said you’ve been married for 20+ years. I assume your wife is 40’s -50’s.

    Are you going to tell me you lust after your wife’s body the same way you did when she was younger?

    Are you going to tell me that should you be in a position to have younger, hotter women or better looking women than your wife, you would choose not to exercise those options?
    Maybe the reason for marrying was to get and raise a son. If so you don’t need to commit a lifetime to a particular woman for that.

    However ,the fact that you would limit yourself to one AND also commit to that one woman in a sealed monogamous relationship and yet still not fuck other women as your wife gets older and less attractive tells me that for all the options that you create and doing things for you and not for her there is still something stopping you from exercising those options. Are you really becoming a better man for you or are you doing it so that she would be less likely to stray? You say you are acting out of choice, but is that choice influenced by your innate natural desire as a man (which is naturally programmed to look out for you?) or is it societal programming?

    @ SJF

    ” What is “natural” is not always what some have preference for ”

    Having a preference against nature is an anomaly. Most preferences not in tune with the natural order of things is a result of societal programming.

    @ walawala

    Paying directly to bang and hoping that an escort likes you and want your children are two entirely different things. Seems to me that you yourself need to have a connection with a woman to fuck her. You don’t have to.walawala, you don’t have to.

    @novaseeker @ fact

    When you see a woman that inspires lust in you , you naturally want to dominate and beat the breaks off of her. If you get to fuck her due to your physical attraction, behavior and ability to arouse her good. If not, but she is down for fucking for money, that lust does not just go away. It is an energy that radiates from the core. You are not thinking about whether she likes you or not, You don’t even remember her name. You just don’t care. All you care about is beating it up at that time.

    A woman giving you sex due to physicality etc is natural. A woman giving you sex through monetary payment is natural.

    Men who have an issue with the idea of paying almost always want something more than sex from a woman. Most are seeking committed relationships deep down. They still have this idealized version of women.

    I took a little time to read about the blue pill etc. Lots of “redpilled” men are men that are aware of the natural dynamics of women but try to put parts of the truth into a bluepilled framework. Seems to me that the real desired end result is to achieve monogamy with the dream girl while being able to keep her from straying.

  67. Seth

    Lol, I’ve already had this conversation a few dozen times, so I will do without trying to explain.

    Fyi, I am in a position to have sex with ” younger ” women. But I don’t tend to pedestalize according to age.

    Again, go bang dozens of hundreds of the hottest, youngest ( within reason) women you can get your hands on. Then we can really talk.

    Yes, my wife is still extremely attractive, particularly to me. Choose well.

  68. Seth

    “I took a little time to read about the blue pill etc. ”

    You need to take more time… And you sound very thirsty. 🍺

  69. ducks

    Holy shit, did you see that low flying plane? Looks like it went right over my well someone’s … head …..

  70. “You have to have observed young girls over time to understand what they do wrt sex. Most aren’t randomly banging strangers.”

    If dating apps are the most common way of seeking sex, which seems to be true for the under 25 set of men and girls-who-are-average-looking, then your statement is only true for people over 25. Social circle is significant, but so are dating apps and bars. I’m not sure that social circle is where most of the sex occurs. And it seems to me that social media and social circle overlap heavily. Things aren’t so cut and dried. Girls are banging both friends AND strangers they met on social media.

  71. Seth

    “Are you going to tell me you lust after your wife’s body the same way you did when she was younger?”

    I’ve been with my wife for 31 years and I lust after her body more than I did when she was younger. And not in a blue pill way (ok, well maybe sometimes…). She is attractive.

    “…you would limit yourself to one AND also commit to that one woman in a sealed monogamous relationship”…

    That’s not a thing–sealed monogamous relationship. There is no seal. You get to choose each and every day.

  72. Oh, I forgot to say: We are not advocating for monogamy.

    Odd thing, Seth, if I got to choose any girl to fuck now, I’d choose my wife now.

  73. “We are not advocating for monogamy.”

    Seth seems to be reacting here as if he thinks it is somewhere else. There is a reason for the Internet rule “lurk moar.”

  74. Here you go Seth…

    “This 1955 Triumph TR2 was purchased new by the current owner when he was 27 years old. He is now 91 years old and verifies that he has added all 61,295 miles on the odometer. The owner states that the car has never been repainted and has not been driven in the rain in the past 40 years. The car has been stored during Canadian winters and has received continuous maintenance throughout the years. “

    I’d lust after this 64YO the same as in 1955…×644.jpg

  75. yeah but, it doesn’t have GPS or Collision Avoidance Technology. How would you possibly drive it because, say it with me, <I<>everything’s different now.

    hee hee heee….

  76. How does it go? As a man ages he learns to never trust a fart,never waste a hard-on and if you float it fly it or fuck it then rent it.

    You can’t rent a 55 TR2.

  77. Ok fellas…..

    Let’s stop whinging lust around without defining it FFS

    Deep breath.

    Lust is the use of sex outside it’s purpose.

    Now……..again take a breath….

    If I could procreate everytime I ejaculated…I would…and you’d have nothing but reverence for me. I would be highly in demand

    But I don’t so…..what the best alternative to pure fecundity?

    Ask now: how do you and me and @all use sex to develop lasting, creative and novel meaning?

    The less the outcome in consequential permanency of sex the more it is defined as lust.

    The point is this….again take a breath…fuck for fun or fuck for meaning…at some point every man looks at himself in the mirror.

    On the extremes you have two guys: one who nods and says I did my best and my conscience is clear. The other walks up to the roof and throws himself off.

  78. “I think that Roosh has paid a high price for his time as a player. He understands women so well he can’t pair bond.”

    Funny, some of us understand women quite well and have no trouble pair bonding. You know, those of us in LTRs for several decades.

    You are keyboard jockeying. Yes, Roosh doesn’t understand a lot about how to be a man in a LTR. But your diagnosis of the reason is faulty.

    If you want to marry a feral woman or Entitled Princess ™, like Katarina in “The Taming of the Shrew,” you will have to train her and that means that you will have to have a particular skillset to do so.

    Even if you vet women to find someone you want to have kids with, some training will still be required and that same skillset will be necessary.

  79. @ Palma

    “But he understands too much about the bad parts of their nature…”

    Bad parts? Why would nature perpetuate “bad”.

    Sounds specious…and butthurt on Roosh’s part. Roosh is not getting something others get and have gotten for well forever, and I agree with you he’s damaged and insular.

    Think of a ignorant friend not never caring what an oil change is and the engine seizes and your buddy baffled claims: “Stupid car. Must be bad parts.”

    Women are not the enemy, IMO.

    Let’s immediately stop sanctifying the godfathers of the manosphere. They’d appreciate the reality. Enough with the golden calves.

  80. “Women are not the enemy, IMO.”


    I go about my business and talk to guys. It never fails as an archetypical thing. The guys that are not getting laid launch into a tirade about how a top down approach to “teaching woman how to behave” ensues. I get bored and lose interest in their speech. I hate that talk.

    And then Roosh goes into a tirade on how to teach guys how to behave religiously. How trite and bizarre. It is a shame to not to be in a state of release from constraint. Shame on youse. Fuck.

  81. Rollo I admire your work. Your work is the only thing that keeps me sane in this world. Same for Rian Stone. Rian has a knack for cutting out the bullshit as well.

    Same for older Chateau Heartiste work.

    When you read that stuff it makes sense. Instead people are now polluting The Red Pill with the meaning of life and God. It looks like a form of powerplay.

    “True” Red Pill (similar to “TRVE BLACK METAL” is now “Be a traditionalist and a deep thinker”. It is a powerplay. And it POLLUTES The Red Pill.

    The Red Pill is way deeper than all of that. None of these philosophers brought the knowledge that The Red Pill provides to light before in such a straight forward applicable advice.

    You have people saying “you cannot pairbond after years of playing women”. Boohoo. Reality is rough sometimes. I think these people are still holding on to their blue pill ideals.

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