As a few of my readers know my daughter is presently a sophomore at college. Every time she reaches a new milestone in her life I have a tendency to mentally go back in time in my own life and consider how utterly different her experiences are in comparison to my own. At 19 the thought of being as organized and honestly well off as she is in life now would never have occurred to me. For a very brief moment in my life back then I’d kept a journal of what it was I was doing and thinking at the time. My first ‘real’ girlfriend had given me this blank journal (she was one of those girls who wrote diaries) to write my thoughts in and being the Beta I was then most of it was filled with my Blue Pill frustration with girls. She’d gifted me this journal, I found out later, as an effort to absolve her of all the guilt she knew was coming her way for having cheated on me and deciding that, at 18 herself, she wanted to move on into her Party Years without the baggage of a dutiful Beta who thought he was going to marry her.
This was 1988 and the then 19 year old Rollo Tomassi was very much a typical Blue Pill Beta. I sometimes read back through the dozen or so pages I actually took the time to write back then to remind myself how I thought back then. I was very much and idealistic Beta back then, but I had several other friends who subscribed to the same Blue Pill delusions; and now with hindsight I realize this phase in a Beta’s life is one that was around long before and long after I went through it. This was the ‘Break Phase’ I outline in Preventive Medicine.
As it turned out, the girl who I predictably developed ONEitis for, the first girl to spread her legs for me (‘enthusiastically’), the girl I thought had to be “quality” if she appreciated a guy like me, was every bit the ‘play the field’ skank I would’ve never called her because it was what a “typical male” would say about her. At one point I had thought I’d want to marry her. My Blue Pill conditioning had taught me it would be the right, “supportive” thing to do; marry her and support her ambitions and goals (it’s what good Blue Pill boys ought to do) at the sacrifice of my own. And as directionless as I was then, that was an easy decision to make.
My daughter recently informed me that her boyfriend’s best friend just proposed to his girlfriend at 19. Both this guy and his girlfriend are also sophomores at the same school and this is what triggered the reminiscing for me. At 49, and having lived the life I have and the experiences I use on this blog today, I’m very glad my first girlfriend dumped me. That’s hard to say sometimes, particularly when I think back on the pit of misery years I spent with the BPD girlfriend I’d gotten involved with later, but I’m thankful for those bad experiences as much as the good ones. So, it’s really difficult for me to tell my daughter’s friend “oh, congratulations”.
It’s very difficult for me to endorse anyone getting married at so early an age these days or when I was 19. Modern marriage is a menagerie of horrors for today’s men. People say, “Rollo you’re married, how come you’re so hard on marriage?” It’s either that or they presume my marriage is a shit show and I’m venting like a petulant boy. When I’m critical of marriage it’s in spite of my own (very happy for 21 years) marriage. But I cannot condone it for men today – not in its present state. Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I’ve written in many prior posts that I don’t necessarily agree with that assessment, but I do understand it. The risks today far outweigh the rewards, but still there are men who, even with Red Pill awareness, will still take it on.
There’s a running debate I have going on with Hunter Drew (The Family Alpha) and Tanner Guzy (Masculine Style) about how marriage is a lifestyle decision, and depending on how informed a man is about the risks he assumes and when he decides to get married, this decision is literally a question of life or death for that guy. Both these guys married early in life, both have kids, and both will have far different experiences than myself in this respect. Both of them and myself have assumed the risks and sacrifices this entails. I’m fully aware that my wife can detonate the marriage at any time. I’m sure both Hunter and Tanner are well aware that their wives also have the right to have them removed from their home and take their children away from them for any reason. But we’re all married, and as I wrote in Surrender, we have all willingly put ourselves in the most vulnerable position a man can be in; we’ve bet our lives, livelihoods and the future health and happiness of our kids and families on what today is the ultimate suckers bet for a man. And what’s worse, we cannot ever expect women or our wives to ever relate with just how dangerous a position we willingly put ourselves in.
So I’m thinking about all of this after my daughter tells me about this 19 year old kid proposing to his girlfriend. Statistically his marriage will end before he’s 28. I would also bet that, like myself at 19, he’s making a decision that will affect him and his fiancé’s based on Blue Pill idealism – an idealism that’s informed by the Feminine Imperative and delusions of egalitarian equalism. Naturally I can’t possibly think this is a good idea. If I were this boy’s father I’d strongly advise against it, but there are others in the manosphere who would encourage this.
There’s an old saying that goes “marriage is our last, best chance for growing up”. I also disagree with this from the perspective of today’s version of marriage, but I understand how homey platitudes like this are appealing to a social order of men who it seems don’t want to grow up. It’s becoming a new way of AMOGing (particularly in religious circles); if you’ve got your shit together enough to see the wisdom in being married and starting a family you’re a “better man” than the ‘boys’ who they believe want to extend their adolescence. It’s really nothing new.
According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.
This is one half of strategic pluralism theory for men. Men who invest themselves in the long term aspect will always look for ways to validate their inability or unwillingness to pursue multiple partners. It’s easy to think that these men make their necessity a virtue, and that may or may not be the case, but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. The Blue Pill has always subjugated men to be predisposed to the one-mate investment strategy while simultaneously encouraging women to adopt a multiple mate strategy. That may seem counterintuitive, but when we look at the Sheryl Sandberg plan for Hypergamy we can see that what they believe is prudence is having a large selection of potential husbands from which to choose.
In Trad-Con manosphere thinking it seems like conventional wisdom to encourage men and women to marry younger. Look at where we’re at today; women forestall marriage – ostensibly to further a career, but really to falsely extend their Hypergamous decision making years – until their Epiphany Phase (29-31) or even beyond by freezing their eggs. Men take much more time to mature into their peak SMV potential, but what’s the common complaint? These men aren’t “being men” by preparing themselves for a life of family and marriage. They aren’t catering their lives’ decisions to fulfill women’s sexual strategy, and really what incentive do they have to when women are following the Sandbergian path of Hypergamy? Men and women marry later and later – if at all. Women unmarried by the time they’re 34-35 are likely to never marry in their lives.
So it seems like wisdom to tell this kid, “good on you”, in spite of all the odds staked against him and despite the Blue Pill idealistic delusions that are prompting him to propose. Trad-Cons love the idea of a return to something resembling “traditional values” in order to save western culture from itself, but it’s important to remember that those old books values are really just leverage in a new books world.
Marrying early, as I said, is usually the result of Blue Pill naiveté. Both young men and women are still ignorant of who they are or who they have a potential to become. I see a lot of early-marrieds originating in religious circles because this is their only means to “legitimate” sex, but there are the guys who see marrying early a better way to ensure ‘permanent’ sex for themselves. In some respects it’s almost a blessing that women at this age are so anti-marriage – most young men on the investment side of strategic pluralism are far too willing to kill their own dreams to accommodate their investment.
Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally, but it doesn’t remove the evolved influence. By the time that 20 year old mother and wife is 30, she’s had ten years to develop the resentment of her choice by living vicariously through her single girlfriends’ experiences. The context may change, but Hypergamy doesn’t.
Early marriage limits a man’s potential. Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Aristotle said, “The Ideal age for marriage in men is 35. The Ideal age for marriage in women is 18”, not unlike my sexual market value graph, but the reason for this is because it takes much longer for a man to establish himself as a man. The simple truth is that part of the sacrifice of being married means a man will not be able to capitalize on opportunities he would have were he single. Some opportunities may never even be made available to him because of him being married. This isn’t something most early-marrying men consider.
Men who marry early and stick it out through their peak SMV years often feel the mid-life crisis (epiphany) years much more acutely. This is kind of the man’s making up for missing out resentment a wife may feel as she becomes more and more aware that she can’t compete in the SMP for a better Hypergamous prospect. I don’t believe men have a “crisis” per se around this time, but what they do experience is a sense of introspection that’s colored by their now better capacity to understand the game they’ve been a part of with regards to women. When a man’s married well this is less of an issue, but there is a definite remorse over the “life he could’ve lived” if only he’d known better. This is an assessment of the sacrifices he’s made, how they paid off (if at all) and a sort of survey of his life up to that point.
The biggest ‘con’ to early marriage is that it’s always going to be a learn as you go prospect while trying to establish a world that a his wife of the future will want to defer herself to. This worked far better in a culture and time when women would be compelled to defer to a man’s mastery due to religion, social norms and respect. We do not live in those day anymore and women have actionable ‘outs’ of any commitment that doesn’t suit them, while men have more responsibilities to qualify themselves to suit women.
Early marriage has a few advantages, but all of these depend on the personal nature of the woman a man marries. That sounds kind of obvious, but if you go into a marriage with a solid Frame and a woman who expects to defer to your dominance, I think young marrieds might have a better shot at long term success. If a woman is a virgin, yes, this can be a real source of attachment for her if her husband imprints on her as solidly dominant Alpha. I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate. There is far too significant and imprinting with virgin women and sex with an Alpha man, or even a guy who seemed Alpha. This is the recipe for an Alpha Widow, but in a marriage it can make for a strong bond.
As has been mentioned countless times, the most stable and healthy way to raise children is in a committed marriage. This might be the only advantage marriage may have for a man today. In an early marriage I would think that a woman being at her sexual market value peak, combined with following her true biological clock (her prime fertility window 22-26) the odds of having happy healthy children are improved. I have a cousin who spent more than half his life building himself into a millionaire architect, but at my age (49) his children are 5 and 7. I can’t imagine living this life now. I suppose money might make it easier, but evolutionarily speaking he and I should effectively be grandfathers by now. I married at 28 and there are advantages and disadvantages to this as well, but I cannot imagine having young children at my age.
Finally, for the “well, duh” moment, it goes without saying that a young wife/mother should necessarily be playing on your team. The only possible successful prospect for a younger marriage to have any stability is if that woman understands what it is she’s sacrificing. Women likewise sacrifice their own personal potentials and later this becomes their source of resentment. The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage.
In the Trad-Con sphere today there is a constant droning for personal responsibility on the part of men. There is little to none about the responsibilities of women. We’re constantly told that women are only the way they are because men have allowed it. I’ve written before that this is a cop out and an absolving of women’s complicity that mirrors what the Feminine Imperative has put forth. Women are taught not to do anything “for a man” and anything a woman does that might be expressly for a man is is conflated with subservience. Consequently we get generations of women who only indulge their natural solipsism and expect men’s sacrifices as part of the utilities. This is one of the primary reasons all marriages fail; there is no complementarity. Marriage becomes nothing but a naked exchange of resources on the part of the man and anything a woman might do ‘for’ him is frowned upon. And don’t think this is just limited to those blue haired feminists, you can find it at your church.
Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.
[…] The Marriage Game […]
Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Trad-Cons are concerned only with rationalizing their own life choices and sacrificed possibilities, and trying like hell to preserve a past they’re stuck in that no longer exists. It has long since been supplanted by orders for men and privileges for women in a single mommy support service rivaled only by welfare. The rest of us in the manosphere are concerned about the results the individual (ourselves or others, depending on the… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRPDGEgaATU “Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally,… Read more »
I cannot recommend marriage for any young man today, especially those living in the U.S., Canada and Europe. The level of attitude, ingratitude and all-out disdain exhibited among modern Western women today cannot be overstated. The value proposition of marriage itself, and all incentives for it, have been swept away. Even women have gradually given up entirely trying to persuade against, or sugar-coat what is happening, because there is so much human wreckage strewn about for all men to see. A young man age 19 (or ANY age for that matter) would be wise to simply take inventory of the… Read more »
It’s taking a lot longer even for men to peak now. I know my family priest who comes from a family of generations who are all doing the same thing. They start from childhood and are quite ready to do their trade by their late teens. Those who are still in the profession (they earn enough by being in the city and going out of town now and then) just study college because it’s the standard thing to at least be college educated. These guys all marry early to girls of similar backgrounds. My priest is 65 or 70 and… Read more »
” A young man age 19 (or ANY age for that matter) would be wise to simply take inventory of the intersexual relations with in his own proximity. Just take a look at his own father and grandfathers, uncles, brothers, friends and colleagues and also any nephews he has. It’s not even those men in his life who are divorced, separated from their children, going to jail or hopelessly paying off unaudited child support and lifetime alimony amounts. No, he merely needs to look at all of the men who are still married, most of whom are completely fucking sexless… Read more »
Sri You hit partially on some of what I was getting at. My family has been here in the U.S. for 10 generations ( my kids are the 10th…11 coming up ) and my generation was the first to have an availability and funds to attend college. Yet people before us knew how to thrive without corporate jobs and high salaries, and dead bedrooms were rare as families had double digits of children. There wasn’t time for bullshitting around as you had to grow up, and ” man up ” in every sense of the word. By 19, you were… Read more »
@Blax: On what has changed with men: I don’t think it’s that complicated brother – social engineering. Elites in society, in my opinion, have been pushing for an increased docility in men so they can expand their control globally. I keep telling people that the pervasiveness of the FI is also at play here in the “3rd world” urban setting. Increased medication and effeminization of boys, while attacking their innate masculinity is also a factor. With increasing gynocentricity in society we get this increase lack of foresight as a cultural attribute. Solipsism becomes a societal trait and we end up… Read more »
@Blaximus “Question for those commenters over 35 or so, is this what you see when you look at your dad and uncles and grandfathers? I’m serious and curious. Lots of things have changed in the last generation or so, but I want some other opinions. My comments do not reflect any of the OP themes. Indeed I know the dark times are upon us, but I have a 26 year old daughter and 23 year old son. And I live in Unicornland. I never knew a grandfather, and barely knew any uncles (knew of them, but didn’t really have any… Read more »
February 2, 2018 at 7:51 pm
Something has changed beside women’s movement/feminism/FI. Something with males.
Less death generally. So a man is less likely to take the true measure of the world. But that makes each death more significant.
Women with one child tend to overprotect that child. Two is a bit better. Three or four is probably the minimum for significantly reduced sMothering.
“Something has changed beside women’s movement/feminism/FI. Something with males. It’s more complicated than we seem to think.”
Its pretty simple. Feminism/FI has lead to men checking out of society on a mass scale (the 80%) and the rise of the Incel economy is here to satisfy said men. The other guys (the top 20%) are living in jerkboy’s paradise.
Rank meat’s not worth full price, living in a Jerk-boy’s Paradise.
My RealGirl never gets lice, living in a Jerk-boy’s Paradise.
The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage. There’s the rub, right there. No matter what she’s like when you marry her, she’s going to change, and all the forces acting on her (except you, yourself) are pushing her away from you. Not every… Read more »
@ j Okay, I agree. But why are males not fighting for their manhood? It’s not in a majority of men’s natures to just fold up and roll over ( see every war ever ), so there’s gotta be more of an explanation. As I’ve said many times, a kitten will fight to defend itself. Is it the anti male influence from such early ages? What’s driving men to abandon rebellion and fighting for what their testosterone is supposed to be driving them towards? I’m having a hard time understanding the ‘ why ‘. I get what’s happening, I just… Read more »
If anything is worth fighting and dying for, it’s yourself, no?
@Blax: On fighting for one’s self: Agreed! And, I think, to some extent, MGTOW, despite its short comings, is one way if rebelling.
Some lessons are just going to have to happen the hard way.
@Blaximus, masculinity IS the ultimate muscle. But muscles cannot grow without growing pains and challenges. The problem I see is pleasure addiction on the wasters and work addiction to burnout on the other. At least in a war, you could die and put an end to your misery, but the corporate grind is a different story. There’s a saying, “You know how strong you can get only when being strong is the only choice you have.” That pretty much sums up old school. Strength is a choice now, and most people make it only after life’s kicked them a few… Read more »
Rollo, I get the impression you are almost taunting me to respond to this (as my positions have been made clear in the past). Let me offer this simple response at first: Context matters. Context makes all the difference concerning marriage. Early marriage in a good environment? Good idea. Early marriage in an unhealthy environment? Awful, terrible -just the worst- idea. The problem is that most environments these days are unhealthy. Unless you are connected to and part of a traditionalist community, early marriage is no better than late marriage. Marriage in that context is simply a dangerous, risky thing… Read more »
@Donal: The thing is, you can’t depend on environment.
Environment helps but it can’t form the basis of frame.
You must be or provide the frame. That way, with string internals, tempered by experienced preferably, you can handle business.
The people who would normally lead an actual fight (against foreign invaders, say) are the ones living in jerkboy paradise. They have no reason to want anything to change.
We used to have this concept of the 3 big sins – wine, women and wealth, but what it means has flown over a lot of people’s heads The blue pilled generation simply checks out of society and goes to addictions (wine) if there’s no incentive in the form of women, while people on the other end are working themselves to death (and divorce) for wealth that’s actually beyond their capacity to enjoy in peace. There’s a certain amount of evolutionary pain (outside your comfort zone) that you need to go through if you need to burn off your bad… Read more »
“…And for good reason- it is too much of a risk to a man’s health, finances, sanity, and most importantly, soul…” So commandment – Thou shall make your evolution always as the point of origin and incentive, never a woman, or the world that treats you as toilet paper. If you do it right, you will become a sun, not a moon (that needs light). Counter intuitively, this will get you more than what you expected. And you will end up giving more to society and being more fulfilled than what you thought. I know that ideal sounds unrealistic, but… Read more »
@Blaximus Question for those commenters over 35 or so, is this what you see when you look at your dad and uncles and grandfathers? Grandfathers? No. They both died before it got bad. Father? Eh, she divorced him because he was abusive. I witnessed it. She was justified. Of course the fact that she soon turned abusive on me showed she wasn’t exactly a catch herself so who knows? Maybe she provoked him a lot. Uncles? Ohhhh yeah especially the ones that married my blood aunts were miiiiiiserable. The women on my mom’s side were horrible, henpecking, bitchy, conniving cunts… Read more »
Sun’s got the info for ya Blax… why you ask the question is confusing… haven’t you been paying attention? mgtow sound familiar to you? [[Is it the anti male influence from such early ages?]] ya that and more… [[What’s driving men to abandon rebellion and fighting for what their testosterone is supposed to be driving them towards?]] I’m thinking the distilled information is this: women/the feminine/western culture has blamed, shamed and abandoned men, fathers, husbands, brothers, sons… with the full backing of the federal, state and county gov’t for the past 60+ years – Men have been abandoned by ‘their’… Read more »
@Rollo: very interesting post. I myself married close to your age (a bit younger), but as a virgin to a virgin (got my N=2 only recently, posted on the FRs). I used to be very religious and this was, as you wrote, the “legitimate” avenue to sex. I also loved her and we’d been together for a few years (without sex, because religion; and there were times it was me definitely me stopping it, but I was definitely mostly blue pill then). I still love her, but I am very thankful for the RP awareness and a few weeks after,… Read more »
men are idealistic but also needy with less opportunities nowadays, at least in Western countries.
Noone develops a dominant frame being needy. So their marriage is often doomed from the start.
@Blax But why are males not fighting for their manhood?…Is it the anti male influence from such early ages? Yes. Where you had all these masculine men teaching you skills and pumping you up, guys nowadays are aren’t taught how to be men and instead are told by teachers, the media, and society at large how pathetic and corrupt and evil they are. Furthermore, those masculine men from the past would take young guys out on physically demanding, dangerous, and exhilarating adventures that kept them healthy and gave them a sense of power, of agency, and success. The world was… Read more »
“tsotha February 2, 2018 at 9:27 pm Blaximus, The people who would normally lead an actual fight (against foreign invaders, say) are the ones living in jerkboy paradise. They have no reason to want anything to change.” Women can do what they want but it is the laws on the books that compel men to comply and blunt the dread that men can have on women. The West has weaponized the law. All the grandstanding about rule of law and equal enforcement still boils down to who makes the law and how is it harmful. The West also have profiteering… Read more »
Personally, I do not think West can reign its profiteers hiding behind the charade of rule of law. The greed is irresistible.
Too much energy wasted on arguments in the court of law and court of public opinion instead of true freedom and innovation.
They will implode the West with hair slitting interpretation of the law and also other countries who aspire to be like West.
Get a good lawyer on retainer, be on good terms with mafioso of your neighborhood and enjoy the decline.
With the sale of flamethrowers, Elon Musk started garage sale of his brand value.
Never believed he was a blue pill though he advocated blue pill, he has entered charlatan territory.
If he cannot turn around his ship then he may double down on blue pill support to gets sympathy and support from juries that would help him in his forthcoming bankruptcy and legal issues.
His flagship endeavors are getting nowhere.
Part of the problem is K-12 public schools are much more chick-driven than they used to be. My kids’ K-4th grade elementary school did not have a single male employee. Their intermediate school had a handful of male teachers, but far more female teachers. Whereas my elementary schools had male principals and at least a few male teachers starting around 3rd grade or so. It’s totally chick-driven in terms of the parents too. Where I live (boring, conservative suburbs in the Midwest), the PTOs have all-female officers and about 99% female attendance at PTO meetings. Sure, no guy in his… Read more »
“but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. ” With me being raised this has always been something to consider a bishop in the church of my youth died 2 days ago and i just found out. I became angry because if my flaws pouring out of me. In appears as if i am very much ego invested in something being the way i want it to be but not the way it is.… Read more »
“More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you.” Rolo, this one goes against Briffault’s Law. Woman is always on her own team only. If she can derive benefit (real or just sense of security for her) from you, you are “team”. If she will have impression that benefit has diminished or she would be able to derive greater benefit elsewhere, you will see in no uncertain terms that there have never been any “team”. Only master pimp can go against Briffault’s Law by employing sophisticated psychological techniques to create imaginary benefits in woman’s… Read more »
@Limitless, It is possible to circumvent Briffault’s, but most men don’t have the stomach for it. Briffault’s Law and Hypergamy are the dynamics that pretty much define western cultures today. I’d be curious to see what Jordan Peterson would make of Briffault’s.
A touch off-topic, but I have only just noticed an oft-used phrase, Rollo using it to refer to himself and a couple of others: “SHE can detonate the marriage at any time”. It’s all over the manosphere. Less discussed is that men, too, can pull the trigger. Why live in fear, trying to appease the one terrorising you with this prospect? As @Sri mentioned above, divorce is like communism as although each takes half (or one takes almost everything), and still both are poorer. Divorce is like nuclear, mutually assured destruction. Of course a woman will wave the D-word around… Read more »
“Something has changed beside women’s movement/feminism/FI. Something with males.
Straight up fear has taken hold of males (note use of male not men). Not just with respect to marriage. It’s not the FI.
Jeez look at this board, half a dozen (so far) never married guys shitting themselves.
It is to lol.
I’ll let some more panic induced diarrhea squish out before responding.
Let theorists and KJ’s get it out. Heh
those masculine men from the past would take young guys out on physically demanding, dangerous, and exhilarating adventures that kept them healthy and gave them a sense of power, of agency, and success. The world was theirs.
Straight up fantasy bullshit. lol
in the 80’s we were all latchkey kids. We were alone. We made ourselves. Boomer parents where all about themselves.
This kind of looking for excuses instead of looking within is what is holding males back. Fear.
Same as it ever was.
If you are Beta you will reap Beta results.
I recall, 2003-ish, being at dinner with a married mid-Boomer couple (both on the second). He and I were talking back and forth about some theological point and he was standing forth with great vigor. His wife spoke to him sharply and then said to my wife: “That’s my job: when he gets up on his pedestal I need to reach over and shake it.” A man does not marry a woman, he marries a commissar—but it was not so in the beginning we are assured. Viewing a marriage as a team event is very much old books; in the… Read more »
What’s driving men to abandon rebellion and fighting for what their testosterone is supposed to be driving them towards?
Fear. Fear emanating from faux economic abundance. Juuust enough comfort to dissuade anything that will bring momentary discomfort. Part of the fear is masked by delusion.
Viewing a marriage as a team event is very much old books
Not the oldest books though… Look into “helpmeet”. Think about how that works in an evo/bio/psych sense.
Re this tweet
Figure out who “they” are. It isn’t “women” or the FI.
@Sentient: Sure. Yet who did she play for?
@SJB “Viewing a marriage as a team event is very much old books; in the new book marriage is for assignment of accrued benefits.” Is it though? Maybe you’re talking about the female part, but in my circles (and I’ve lived in different parts of the world) males still think in terms of making it work for their ‘partner’. They want to be with someone they can share their life with, support each other and be there for good and bad. So they want to remove or minimize the ‘bad’ that she feels. After years and years of investment and… Read more »
“…..and all that the OMGs have to say on this forum is grow up young man.” Sentient: Straight up fantasy bullshit. lol in the 80’s we were all latchkey kids. We were alone. We made ourselves. Boomer parents where all about themselves. This kind of looking for excuses instead of looking within is what is holding males back. Fear. Same as it ever was. I’m distinctly proud of not being hovered over as a teenager. Autodidact and self-made man and all that. What some of these guys are missing is that there are men like you and Blaximus out there… Read more »
You tell me.
My dad was explosively violent. Not an impressively big guy, nor impressively successful. He had a lot of stress and it came out in wicked bouts of temper, unmitigated fury. Died young. Talking about my father with my confirmation sponsor in my early 20’s. The sponsor is all-around highly successful, never knew my father. I lucked out he extended a helping hand when I needed it. Describing my father to him, I lamented he wasn’t as successful and struggled with figuring life out personally, financially, emotionally. Sponsor sternly: You know…your father was trying his best. Friends, that was the MOST… Read more »
Eating a pile of bacon and eggs, but I gotta chime in real quick.
I don’t allow women to speak to me in the manner you described without repercussions, and I absolutely won’t have a wife talking that kind of shit ( joking aside of course ), particularly in front of others.
Stuff like that is not the fault of the woman, it’s the tolerance of the man and capitulation is not really what she’s looking for.
But hell yeah, she’ll take it if you volunteer it.
@IRL: I do understand what you are saying—men desire intimate female companionship (companion = one with whom you share bread). Contemporary marriage seems a very poor avenue to exercise that desire as social (and legal) norms no longer prohibit intimate opposite sex companionship. What, then, is the point of marriage other than assignment of pension survivor benefits (a thing that will go the way of the dodo)?
@Sentient: You know very well: Team Slytherin.
@Blaximus: But hell yeah, she’ll take it if you volunteer it.
There it is – the ratchet turns only toward the female — until the oil needs to be changed that is.
Bacon & eggs is a good plan.
No, the ratchet turns both ways always. Never cede, have the strength to turn the ratchet your way.
… A ratchet that only turns one way is called ” a broken tool “.
@Blaximus I hypothesize human beings in general have an innate ability to understand the Law of Diminishing Returns. I think Men have a dulled sense of the law due to our intrinsic Idealism driven nature but none the lesss we posess an aute cost-benefit gauge even to the point of evaluating something as primal as Sex and mating strategy. “The juice isnt worth the squeeze” is the simplest way to phrase it. Yes there are many brainwashing tactics and biology manipulating substances causing an imbalance in the force and the typical male motto is “never surrender” until it turns into… Read more »
Question for those commenters over 35 or so, is this what you see when you look at your dad and uncles and grandfathers? From what I can tell it got worse. My Father probably doesn’t even know, what an enthusiastic woman in bed looks like, but he said he would never have accepted sexlessness. With my brothers-in-law or my married friends it seems to be the norm. I personally have never seen a marriage where I wanted to be the husband. And that’s a terrible thing. Because working so “the kids can have it better” is a damn good purpose… Read more »
Stuff like that is not the fault of the woman, it’s the tolerance of the man and capitulation is not really what she’s looking for.
See how Adam might have handled it?
lol I know who (((they))) are 😉
I think you know some of them… keep looking.
As a young green eyed, tanned super head turning plate I had ages ago once opined to me when telling me that a friend of hers askednif she and I were getting serious, ” you can’t turn a how into a housewife “. We both knew who she was. No harm, no foul. My experience is that roughly 20%, give or take, of chicks I’ve dealt with sexually were actual raging hoes. Popular wisdom is trying to dictate that this number is somehow astronomically higher these days, but I’m not 100% sold on that. I think the ratio is fairly… Read more »
@Blax: I don’t want to comment on my parents. Grandparents: father side, grandfather died very young, grandmother never remarried, old style widow. Mother side, grandfather could handle grandmother reasonably well I think. Uncles: mostly messy. Younger one I think is miserable in the marriage. Another one is fairly alpha but married really young and remains married but is very openly against marriage, my guess is he bangs the wife frequently but would rather not put up with all the shit testing. Couple of older ones got out of first marriage, one divorced and remarried much later, seems to handle it… Read more »
@Blax: LOL at the gangbang. What is the appeal though (for you)? I can see the appeal of, say, a MFF threesome, but outright gangbang doesn’t seem that interesting.
Ha spell check doesn’t like ” hoe ” and insists on inserting ” how “.
God’s most cherished creation… Man. When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in… Read more »
@Blaximus: The man in my story above let that ratchet click go as far as I know. He was, God rest his soul, a father and an uncle from an intact family as I remember. Why did he let it go? Don’t know. That model of intersexual behavior does not seem to have become less common.
@Sentient: the man was correct: it was the Creator who decided man ought not to be alone. Stopping at the dog would have been fine. lol
Persistent denial of responsibility = beta.
Imagine what your kids would look like if that was the case…
@Sentient: yup, we’re their kids.
IAS The few times I’ve been involved in a gangbang, it technically wasn’t a gang ( with one exception of a train ). More like threesomes. Only 2 mmf , and only one was requested. The other just happened because the chick made her intentions blatant and she made herself available. But in each instance it was in the woman’s frame. Not ideal, but that only become apparent after ejaculation. All mff trysts came at the woman’s suggestion. The last one was at her suggestion and she brought the lamb to slaughter. It was more like she and I teamed… Read more »
Sentient going Old Testament. I likes.
No we’re not…
At least I’m not….
@Sentient: gotcha—not even adopted. ROTFLMAO
IAS My parents are coming up on their 58th anniversary this summer ( God willing…see what you started sentient?? ). My grandparents, paternal grandparents stayed happily together until the end, and passed within months of each other in their 90’s. My maternal grandmother threw my grandfather out of the home due to his being a raging alcoholic. They’d reconcile and break up consistently. My great grandfather ( paternal ) lost his first wife and remarried and sired an even bigger family. He outlived the second wife as well and remained solo until death. Great aunts and uncles didn’t believe in… Read more »
“Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are.” I read this differently – competency, like the Gangestad study “why muscularity is sexy” is not tallness (or muscles for that matter). But women go for men who show genetic raw physical dominance (over competence) when in the fertile window. Therefore, the dom/com hierarchy tips towards dominance (lobster) raher than competence, during estrus. In a degenerate… Read more »
Wisdom, this blogpost – and wonder if one has to be first hit by that train before seeing it. At 18, do we have the depth to even be able to decipher, much less absorb, these. “You go to war with the army you have . . .” (Rumsfeld). Seems at 18, we’re been loaded with blue pill heroics (but don’t know it); have a brain that isn’t optimally developed for eight years more (but don’t know it); have ample time to get solidly established (but don’t know it – so everything seems now-critical); have a biological drive (and know… Read more »
[Let this be a lesson to you; being a natural Alpha doesn’t insulate you from the extrinsic influences that would make you Beta or force you to capitulate to institutions based on a Beta mindset.]
😂😂😂😂😂 Corey Worthington
It does seem he wasn’t trying and didn’t care though. ❤
Lol!! Hilarious 😁!
… big gal
He’s 24 and she is 28.
When you believe that marriage is the only legitimate context for sex and raising children, and you believe that young parenthood is best for baby and parents, there really is no other option than young marriage. If a nineteen year old son said he was getting married, I’d say, great! How can I help support your marriage. Something you consistently leave out is that marriage is not just about the two people that marry: it’s about the two people that marry and the two (or more) sets of parents attached to them. Marriage is a family business. And woe betide… Read more »
@Sentient Fear. Fear emanating from faux economic abundance. Juuust enough comfort to dissuade anything that will bring momentary discomfort. Part of the fear is masked by delusion. This. Reminded me that Stanley and Danko said exactly the same thing in The Millionaire Next Door. Can’t be arsed to look for and quote the whole chapters, so just a quick note from Stanley’s blog: Those children who are the least productive in economic terms often receive the lion’s share of their parents’ capital. The results of this inequity of distribution are predictable. It further weakens the weakest child and strengthens the… Read more »
But why are males not fighting for their manhood? It’s not in a majority of men’s natures to just fold up and roll over ( see every war ever ), so there’s gotta be more of an explanation.
Most males aren’t fighting for their manhood for the same reason most males can be easily transformed into voluntary cannon fodder – they are blue-pilled betas who cannot resist social pressure and manipulation, and who simply don’t know any better. See every war ever.
We will have to do better than just whine about the raw deal that marriage represents for men today. Marriage is a stage in life that, by original design, gives purpose and meaning individually and collectively. A revised or rebooted form of marriage has to fill that niche. Marriage is broken for men and therefore it’s broken for women, too. Men are suffering more acutely at the moment, but the effects on women are pretty clear. If you work in an office environment, you can see the depressed mess that is a single woman in her thirties. Even if she… Read more »
Is it the anti male influence from such early ages? What’s driving men to abandon rebellion and fighting for what their testosterone is supposed to be driving them towards? Well, most have low testosterone to begin with. There are environmental issues at play that are lowering testosterone, which reduces that “male type energy and rebellion” across the board. Couple that with feminism, single motherhood, internet/smartphones/tech (the most substantial buffer ever made, really), feminization of education and culture and so on, and you get low motivation males across the board. Doubt this will change much soon, which creates a market advantage… Read more »
Gentlemen, i am so glad i never got sucked in and got married or had kids. Well, it would be nice to have a 20 yo daughter at this stage of my mid-life (51), but i have had total freedom for my whole adult life. No nagging wife or demanding, ungrateful kids. No continual financial or emotional demands. Any time i get into a “relationship” with a woman i just feel like my balls are in a vice. Really, it is too high a price to pay for sex unless as a man you can hold such solid frame that… Read more »
Now it’s time to jump on the dirt bike and blast across the bush tracks to my mate’s place on this lovely Sunday morning. Life is good out here in the wilderness. Chins up, gentlemen!
February 3, 2018 at 4:59 am
Woman is always on her own team only.
My experience is that if you can get a woman to bond with you and stay bonded she becomes part of your team. I will add that in my case it was not easy. After 40+ years (red pill since ’62) I’m just starting to get results.
And she had one-itis almost from the start.;
So why did I stay so long? Kids. And the kids were my choice.
IMO if you get married nowadays you’re a sucker 😂😂😂
You should be able to hold frame anywhere. Even on Mars. : )
The first thing he would do would be to disbelieve their DPA and use his mouth too much, doubting. Instead of observing Masters at their Craft.
The first rules and probably the hardest to teach novices is to “shut up and pay attention.”
This dead old guy noticed it.
“Silence is only frightening to people who are compulsively verbalizing.”
— William S. Burroughs
And quitcherbitchin. Society has actually enacted Game into law. “Enthusiastic consent.” ALRIGHT!
ps: @donalgraeme/Earl Are you going to try this? https://americandadweb.wordpress.com/2018/02/01/orthodox-courtship/
February 3, 2018 at 8:00 am
… A ratchet that only turns one way is called ” a broken tool “.
Mine is biased. LOL
@ M.Simon https://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/comment-page-3/#comment-136711 (SJF January 20, 2016 at 10:42 am) ….Asking for someone to be a mentor never works. You are asking what you can take from them. You can’t do that…… ….I made it easy on them when hanging out. I didn’t tell them my life story. They don’t have the time. I made it straight to the point, always, so they could deal with it fast. I asked easy questions at first. I didn’t just ask any question, I asked precise questions, which wouldn’t wear them down. Doing this helped them invest in me. Since I asked easy… Read more »
February 3, 2018 at 8:28 am
Chimps do it. What the girl was doing was against your human bias for female selection.
In any case for a LTR she MUST have one-itis for you.
Nagging wife? Ungrateful kids? Whoa. I’ve seen wives do the nagging thing out in public. To anyone that’s actually been nagged, what do they say when nagging? What’s their beef? Stephan Molyneux disagrees with me on this, but I look at it like this – I have my kids from birth ( I actually helped… well, okay I watched… my youngest be born 18 years ago, and cut the cord and pointed to her and told wifey ” mine “..lol ) and no matter how many Maury shows I’ve seen, I can’t see how your kids can be ungrateful or… Read more »
“A couple of years ago I told her that most girls can’t cook a damn thing, and I asked her was she just ” average ” lol. ”
These hoes better learn or else…lol
February 3, 2018 at 9:26 am
In a LTR with two they go off and shop together and don’t mind if you beg off.
And being in a position to grab 4 Ds at once is a joy.
But longer term it is an unstable relationship.
I can do the damn cooking. Call me when the bot can walk a quarter mile, cross Main St. at rush hour, at 20 below, and pick up the brats.
You also probably took control and asserted yourself and your woman welcomed you to do that. These stupid random men think(hope/nobody asked them what they thought or wanted) their ugly bitchy wives will turn into compliant, dimes after the shitty reception.
Lmao… pimp game marriage. Even porn stars read Rollo’s book (starts at 2:59)… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Art5A5Sjkc Emma started her career in webcamming in 2011 at the age of 19. Since then she has consistently impressed with her uncanny ability to attract and entertain audiences and monetize on her personal brand. As a webcam performer she has been a Top Model ($10K+monthly) for over 6 years. She has won 5 industry awards for webcamming including winning 3 years running at the Live Cam Awards. As an entrepreneur Emma has created multiple income streams through membership websites, affiliate marketing, amateur content programs, merchandising and… Read more »
Yollo Well, damn. that’s one way to put it I guess. Re: Take control. I’d dated a bunch of gorgeous chicks that had crazy sex skills and all of the womanly amenities. If I ever started thinking that this might be the one, the testing started and many of them failed miserably. The ” nagging ” mentioned above? That eliminated a chick immediately from consideration past dick and dinners. The ” Strong, Independent, I-don’t-need-no-man” types also became memories after their usefulness for sex waned. You gotta bring more than pussy to the table. My friends always complained that I was… Read more »
… that reminds me. the Toyota is due for an oil change. Oily burden.