No Prescriptions

On Saturday I had a great discussion with Anthony Johnson, Rian Stone (Married Red Pill Reddit) and “Carl” from Black Label Logic. The topic was a critique of the impact Dr. Jordan Peterson is having on a society of ‘lost’ (mostly) young men and how his message is affecting this generally rudderless generation of men. It’s a little over two hours long, but from the overwhelming response on YouTube, Facebook, Reddit and other forums it’s definitely struck a nerve. As an aside here, I’m considering making this meet up video format something I may do semi-regularly (like every other week) with some of the men I consider peers in the manosphere.

You can watch this talk at your leisure, but it has taught me a few things. As I mentioned in the chat it’s next to impossible to have any disagreement or critique of people whom other’s believe are your betters. As Rollo Tomassi it’s impossible for me to be critical of any high profile guy in the sphere without the accusations of professional jealousy or sour grapes being the first reflexive response from haters. I got that, but I’ve learned the conversation is more important that trying to convince anyone of it being genuine. In fact, I think it belies a bigger problem when they are above critique.

That aside, I think it was good to finally parse where Red Pill awareness and what Peterson is advocating have some overlap and where we differ. Peterson is a fountain of hope for the ‘lost’ boys, so anything critical of his message is going to sound like it’s endorsing an “enjoy the decline” mentality. I can’t expect everyone to have read up on my own opinion about that, but the short version is that I’ve never been convinced of some inevitable decline and fall of western civilization. In other words, I think it is possible to turn the ship around; where I may differ is in how that might be done.

For the record here I want to say that I have a great respect for Dr. Peterson. I think he’s what the sphere has needed for a while and I think he fits the role of ‘champion’ that a generation of young men have wanted to place on someone. Ideologically I agree with about 85-90% of what he advocates and there’s no doubt that he’s got definite skin in the game. In fact I really hate it when people use that as some catch phrase to disqualify men today. As a man we all have skin in the game now. How much and to what degree may be debatable, but we all live in a feminine-primary social order and as such we all have a lot to risk whether we acknowledge this or not.

Where I differ with Peterson is in his very Trad-Con solutions to turning the ship around. I wasn’t shocked to see him endorsed in videos for Prager University. In some ways what he proposes resonates with young men looking for a direction because their fathers and generations of Blue Pill men haven’t been able to deliver a way out of Hell for them. I go into this in more detail in our talk here, but here are some of my issues with Peterson’s take on things:

• Life is suffering and sacrifice: In every video I’ve watched Dr. Peterson’s founding (zen-like) premise is that life is suffering and the best men can do is to find ways to minimize that suffering. Men (and I’ve yet to see a video addressing women) must sacrifice parts or all of themselves in order to qualify for “genuine” manhood. The degree of that self-sacrifice is relative to how high a status that man can achieve.

I fundamentally disagree with this premise though I do understand why it’s so appealing to a ‘lost generation’ of young men. From my own perspective, life is based on a perpetual discontent, but how a man deals with that discontent – creatively or destructively – is the measure of him. Furthermore, I would argue that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make in order to facilitate their reality.

• Blue Pill conditioning seems to define his perspective of women: Essentially the archetype he has for women was formed for him as a 7 year old boy when he first developed a soul-mate ONEitis for his wife. His reluctance to acknowledge the Alpha Fucks side of women’s Hypergamy in any video (beyond his repeated use of 50 Shades of Grey as a humorous example) leads me to the impression that he defaults to women as innately ‘good’ and above too much criticism. As such he focuses almost entirely on the good provider / parental investment / Beta need side of Hypergamy. This is unsurprising as it follows the same Trad-Con interpretations of women being “closer to God than men” and men must qualify themselves, and sacrifice themselves for women’s (wives) intimate approval. Dalrock has covered this dynamic among male “complementarian” Christian leaders quite extensively.

• Sacrifice of men is a parallel to men’s disposability: Men will blow themselves up for pussy. From what I gather from his talks Peterson endorses male disposability as a form of Honor. He seems to play on the ‘Man Up / Shut Up’ dynamic I talked about in The Honor SystemWhat ever aspect of maleness that serves the feminine purpose is a man’s masculine responsibility, yet any aspect that disagrees with feminine primacy is labeled Patriarchy and Misogyny. I’m not suggesting Peterson is accusing men of Patriarchy or Misogyny, rather, like most Trad-Cons, it’s a question of living up to one’s duty as a man in his disposability and his usefulness in that sacrifice.

• “Get your shit together” is also a plea for sacrifice: If a man is less valuable his sacrifice is less meaningful. No one cares about mediocre / average men’s sacrifices, but if a man accepts that he is to improve himself it is so that his sacrifice is more appreciated and important. Thus, the comparisons to Christ’s sacrifice as being the ultimate expression of sacrifice and meaning which Peterson uses in his dissertations on manhood and the Bible. My issue here is that women and a feminine-primary social order lack a capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make because these are taken-for-granted expectations of what a man just “ought to do”.

• Peterson is egalitarian to a fault: The mantra may be for men to sack up and make something of themselves, but this is couched in an egalitarian equalism that’s prevalent today. If I had one question to ask Jordan it would be this; is there a dominance hierarchy in a healthy LTR or marriage? I don’t know for certain. My guess is he would say it passes back and forth between a husband and wife which is to say he falls back on an egalitarian ideal. However, outside the family structure he acknowledges that men and women in a state of egalitarianism choose to adopt traditional gender roles (I think he gave the same example as was covered here).

• Dr. Peterson regularly resorts to shaming language with men, rarely does he do the same with women: This may be a simple question of his delivery, but Peterson is always harder on men than he is with women. In so doing he adopts the AMOGing of only men techniques that a pastor like Mark Driscoll uses from the pulpit. Inso doing he pedestalizes women and absolves them of any consequences of their Hypergamous choices by imploring men to “man up and marry those sluts“. In essence the sacrificial nature of men becomes one that is necessary for the continuance of ‘family’ and western culture in spite of women. I also see how this plays into the idea of women lacking any moral agency, personal responsibility and wiping the bad behavior of women off on the men who have allowed this to happen. Once again it comes back to the hypoagency of women.

• Peterson believes that desire can be negotiated: This is my biggest problem with Peterson’s approach to women. This undoubtedly comes from his being a clinical psychologist, but like most therapists he defaults to the idea that genuine desire can be motivated by a process of negotiation. If there is one example of his lack of experience with women it is this belief. In several of his interviews and podcasts he makes reference to appealing to women’s reason and negotiating terms for acceptable behavior (always a man’s behavior) in exchange for intimacy and/or a stress-free marriage. This is the egalitarian, Oprah Approved, male-sublimated means to achieving transactional intimacy.

As you might guess, I strongly disagree with negotiating intimacy. You cannot negotiate genuine desire. You can obligate a woman to fuck you (now called rape) via negotiation, but you cannot organically inspire genuine desire in a woman. This has always been my main point of contention with the marriage counseling trade for a long time.

What is the Red Pill version of “man-up”?

I had a commenter ask me this in the last comment thread. I think there’s two sides to this question. First, I think there’s a need to keep the Red Pill (in the intersexual sense) as close to an objectivist purpose as possible. That means Red Pill awareness is the result of a continuing praxeology.

I’ve locked horns with a few Red Pill guys recently who seem to think that ‘Red Pill’ is an ideology and it’s just the counter revolt to feminism; basically it is feminism for men. I think that does a huge disservice to everything and everyone that’s brought us to where we are today in Red Pill awareness and all of the work and personal risk that was put on the line to explore what we know as Red Pill awareness now. Not only that it casually devalues the effort and work that’s continuing right now.

Critics and feminists alike want to draw parallels in the manosphere to whatever (fictitious) wave of feminism they think applies to whatever the Men’s Rights Movement is calling Red Pill at the moment. Believing that Red Pill is an ideology is one more casualty of how the term / brand has been bastardized by other ideologies who’ve never had any business referring to themselves as “red pill”.

Presuming Red Pill is just an ideology is juvenile, and unsurprisingly it’s an opinion of some underexperienced men in the manosphere who want for simplistic answers. They don’t want to think about what Red Pill awareness implies on a larger social scale. They want a flag to wave and an easy to understand ideology so they can stick it to their feminist enemies. I get it. They want Red Pill (however they define it) to be that ideology, but to me, I think, and I’ve always said it, the Red Pill needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, areligious and amoral to ensure that it stays true to understanding truth. It needs to remain true to being an aggregate of men’s collected experiences with intersexual dynamics.

What these guys want is a meaning to that truth, but that’s not the Red Pill. Meaning is what men will apply to that truth according to their individual needs, situations and circumstances. This is why Peterson and probably some more personalities to follow him will be popular in the future; they prioritize meaning above truth. If you listen to the first podcast of Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson they spend the entire time trying to come to an agreed measure of truth between the two of them so they can move on (in the second podcast) to what is meaning.

You want to know why I don’t do prescriptions on The Rational Male? Because we disempower ourselves when we follow someone else’s path and not our own.

There is a deep need in almost all people to improve or ‘fix’ ourselves in some way. I’ve written essays about it; discontent is is the human condition. That in no way means that life is suffering as per the Peterson (Zen) doctrine, but it is man’s condition to never be satisfied with even the greatest of accomplishments. That is what put us at the top of the species contest on this planet. You can be constructively or destructively discontent, but when you tell me that life is suffering and the only way to lessen that suffering (never to solve it of course) is to sacrifice my way to a better life all that says to me is that you’re out of ideas for a creative solution and you’re all-in on the destructive methods. Either that or you’ll continue naval gazing.

Fuck that.

So, the Red Pill needs to remain a praxeology and it ought to always resist being force-fit into an ideology because it’s always some ideological hack who wants to claim the truth it reveals as proof of his own purpose. The Red Pill has to remain an open source aggregate of men’s experiences. That’s why we’re still here today in spite of the Rooshs who said it would die out 3 years ago – it’s open source and decentralized information.

Now, to the second point, what does ‘Man up’ mean in the Red Pill context? I think this is really for the individual to decide, but I’d say that it would involve a man utilizing and internalizing the awareness the Red Pill represents to him and improving his life with it. In the Safety Net post’s comment thread there are hundreds of examples of how men saved their own lives, often literally. How the Red Pill truth reached them and then manifested in their lives is highly individual. I mentioned the need for a dissociation with ideology because that usually means aligning oneself with the expectations of someone else’s version of truth, not the objective (or as objective as we can make it) truth of the Red Pill.

When I hear ‘man-up’, I identify the context only as derogatory… is there any other definition which is not?

It should, because in almost all contexts imploring a guy to “Man Up” is following someone else’s path, not your own. This is what I mean when I say that I’m not in the business of creating better men, I’m in the business of men making themselves better men. And in today’s world of men seeking direction there is no shortage of personalities who’d like nothing more than to profit from selling men on their paths.

If there is a definition of ‘manning up’ in a Red Pill sense it is living a better way than your previous life that was informed by the falsehoods of your Blue Pill conditioning. Manning up Red Pill is killing off that old Blue Pill-created persona and killing off the false idealisms it taught you. It’s understanding and internalizing that those lies made you a less authentic person because the Blue Pill is firmly an ideology, but one that wears the mask of freedom or choice or individualism. If self-improvement in a Red Pill sense entail some basic tenets, one is that a man cuts himself away from that old Blue Pill paradigm and rebuilds a better life for himself based on a real understanding of intersexual truth on the personal, social and political scales.

Manning up Red Pill begins with rejecting the lies of egalitarian equalism and a commitment to real objective understanding of intersexual dynamics.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Nigel
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Nigel

Invite him to do a video conference with you all, as the one you’ve just posted.

Mr. Generic
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Mr. Generic

I feel like Dr. Jordan Peterson is the righteous sugar-coating of the red pill, needed so the masses can gobble it down before they fully realize just what it is they have all swallowed.

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[…] No Prescriptions […]

Ronin
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Ronin

Peterson is very careful of what he says, l’m pretty sure he’s laying out the prescription for the red pill in a way feminists can’t effectively attack . The channel four interview showing exactly how it works.

MichItaly
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MichItaly

Well, some of your disagreements with Peterson reminded me that saw: It’s difficult to understand something when your job depends on not understanding it. This I think clarifies his attitude towards the feminine-primacy bias burdening culture, law, and court decisions, and male-female psychological differences (which are enormous). This and nothing else. Because there’s nothing blue pill to him in any topic and point of discussion where being not blue pill isn’ lt a menace to his job and popularity. He is highly open-minded, and careless of preconceptions and dominant cultural memes. He’s trying as much truth as humanly possible to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong

@Rollo

Was wondering about that. Had been keeping an eye on Molyneaux’s channel and hadn’t heard a peep yet. At any rate how do you think it went?

status confirmed
Guest
status confirmed

@Ronin- “Peterson is very careful of what he says, l’m pretty sure he’s laying out the prescription for the red pill in a way feminists can’t effectively attack.” While I like your thought, and respect that tactic, I’ve learned in friendly arguments in real life with self-described feminists that they don’t fight reason with reason. I used to see their eyes glaze over when presented with reason. They’d give me an indignant look and come just short of saying, “But that’s just how it is, everyone knows that.” (“It” being whatever flawed conclusion is currently accepted as mainstream truth.) I… Read more »

John
Guest
John

Take Dr. Peterson’s word as one more input for building your Red Pill life. I watched a number of his videos, including the BBC Channel 4 interview, and read his book. What I got was a framework for how I can think about recreating my life. There were some things he wrote about that resonated with me, other things that didn’t. It all came down to where I was at in my life when I watched and read him. What I was looking for. What I was filtering. Maybe because I had been reading The Rational Male, TRP, many other… Read more »

fleezer
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fleezer

“life is suffering”

the way I understand the sixth patriarch, “suffering” (pain) only happens when you are attached to outcomes

this guy’s blue pilled thinking in terms of females is incompatibile with a positive accepting outlook on the first truth because he would be so devastated by what his blue pill self would percieve as a “failure” (wifes unleashed hypergamy) of outcome that he cannot consider it, so of course he thinks he and all men “suffer” in the traditional medical kind of sense of the word

dudes from the west should not fuck with zen. they warned us

Chuck
Guest
Chuck

“Is he hot or is he hubby?” is the advice of a woman dating coach for women over forty. In the middle of one of her seminars, one of the women attendees says that nice guys don’t turn her on. And the coach says, yes, because they’re nerds. And everyone in the seminar agrees that nice guys don’t turn them on. Then the coach tells them that, if they want a man who will stick with them and treat them well, they are going to have to marry a man who doesn’t turn them on. She said, if the guy’s… Read more »

GhostofSteveMcQueen
Guest
GhostofSteveMcQueen

FWIW: To me “man up” means losing your blue pill illusions, embracing red pill reality, and walking the walk of a human being who controls his own life and destiny, fully aware of the evolutionary basis for male-female dynamics and the totally different ways in which men & women are treated or perceived in this world.

In short, accepting reality and acting accordingly.

[A+]

peregrinejohn
Guest
peregrinejohn

I agree with Mr. Generic and Ronin. Seducing minds into the truth is no vice, and something that should probably be done more often and in more ways.

It also seems a good time to point out and recall that “the red pill” is a metaphor for leaving the illusions and seeing things how they really are. Just that: seeing the truth. That such a thing could be shoved into becoming an ideology shows both the reflexive desire people have for an ideology and the unavoidable problem ideologies run into.

EhIntellect
Guest
EhIntellect

@fleezer

My friends and I chatted about suffering this weekend.

Your outcome dependent interpretation is apt.

Where there’s commitment there’s a chance for personal failure and hedging ones marriage/job/health… with viable alternatives is RP essence.

Chuck
Guest
Chuck

Life is suffering. Okay this is going to get kind of Zen so prepare yourself. The Buddha gave the flower sermon. All of his followers gathered around him for the sermon. He held out his hand, and in it he held a flower. He set there looking at the flower. Minute after minute he just sat there looking at the flower. He didn’t say anything. His disciples began to murmur among themselves. What was this sermon about? Then one student understood. The Buddha knew that this student understood, and he ended the sermon. That student began the Zen School of… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Rollo Re: Fuck or Wait I’ve never had to ask a woman for sex and had them fuck on the second date a couple times pre-RP. I can say post-RP I’ve had fuck on the first date a couple times and it’s come very close to fuck on the first time meeting me several times. As in Fat Mama Hen managed to sneak them off when I wasn’t looking on two different occasions. And once a shitty wing man cock-blocked, and once a jealous husband I was unaware of showed up and cock-blocked… Bottom line: I’ve had them make me… Read more »

Lost Patrol
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Lost Patrol

Marriage debate – meet Pour Girl 2.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

Oh and a tip to avoid talking over each other that I learned when running The Man Table: have a text side channel that isn’t part of the audio, and have a moderator. Have the next guy that wants to speak indicate with a signal in the text channel, and have moderator handle transitioning to him.

SJB
Guest
SJB

@Rollo: my sense of it is JBP considers Maps of Meaning to be his work; his definitions are therein. You might gain traction by critiquing within what he considers the scope of the critique-able and then expanding into your areas of expertise. Otherwise it may just come off as ad homimen.

I grant you that young men may not hear JBP’s definition plus contextual framework and that’s a pity. His transition from pedagogue to celebrity has shorten a semester’s work into Y-minute video clips which are then re-mixed to present whatever the mixer desires. Chaos.

AustralianIrishman
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AustralianIrishman

First time commenter, although I have read the whole archive and 2 of your books so I am relatively familiar with your work. There are a few aspects of JBP’s work that I think were slightly inaccurate in the article (full disclosure – I have listened to approx 20-30 hours of his podcast/videos which is nowhere near his complete works, so take what I am saying here with a grain of salt). 1. While JBP does often say that suffering is a constant in life, he generally doesn’t recommend trying to minimise the suffering as a solution. He argues that… Read more »

WestIndianArchie
Guest

The guy complaining that he couldn’t sit through 2 hours of Peterson, had 5 minutes too much air time.

lazarusluz
Guest

AustralianIrishman: I was planning to write some ideas about how I think Rollo may be misinterpreting some parts of Peterson’s ideas, but you did more less what I had in mind in a very articulate way, so there’s no need to do so now. I hope Rollo responds to your post, as you make some good points. Aside that, as far as top advice on the manosphere Rollo and Peterson would be the top two that in my view hold the best answers and that make the most interesting analysis, It would be highly interesting to watch them discuss this… Read more »

Just Beers
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Just Beers

AustralianIrishman

Good post and analysis. Thanks for that. Agree with nearly all, the other things just quibbles…

Just Beers
Guest
Just Beers

JBP does the same thing the OMGs do when he says man up and get your shit together.

And JBP says thus to everyone, not just men.

Of course, true red pill seems to state that women can never “man up” and be truly responsible without a solid masculinely framed guy to show the way. That’s the biggest difference between Rollo and JBP, but it’s a big one.

kfg
Guest
kfg

“‘ . . . red pill seems to state that women can never “man up” . . . ”

Because . . . Women are not men with tits.

Just Beers
Guest
Just Beers

@kfg

I agree

Ezio
Guest
Ezio

> “As Rollo Tomassi it’s impossible for me to be critical of any high profile guy in the sphere without the accusations of professional jealousy or sour grapes being the first reflexive response from haters.”

When someone resorts to ad hominem attacks like this, it means they’re unable to engage with you on your ideas, and I would consider that a win on every measure that matters.

I like Dr. Peterson too, but some of his supporters are real morons who are no better than the Feminists and intellectual dishonesty they’re railing against.

boulderhead
Guest

I am still looking for the video where I first noticed JP’s blue pill misery where he describes how treating your spouse will be reciprocated. This video isn’t it but if you tune in at around 4 minutes you will see some strange disconnect in his normally fluid thought also consternation of expresion in a blue pill based relationship prescription. Give it a look.

https://youtu.be/tvQ7T-zAyYUhttps://youtu.be/tvQ7T-zAyYU

Don’t try this at home.

Marcos A.
Guest

I could’nt help but notice all the art equipment in your studio. Do you have an online portfolio? Would be interesting to see…

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Just Beers, kfg

Even feminists agree… contingent on it being beneficial to do so.

SJF
Guest
SJF

I don’t see the Venn Diagram of JBP and The Red Pill as so intimately intertwined. But I do see the value of delineating the dangers of the Blue Pill Mindset. The fact remains: JBP has no incentive to give up his Blue Pill Ideals that he is happy within, in his relationship with his wife. He has no impetus to be red pill in regards to personal inter-sexual relationships, even if he is against top down egalitarian political arrangements. He’s against the top down egalitarianism and all the LGBT shit, and all the transgender shit. He want’s men to… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

More explicitly, the socio-biological function of women is different from that of men, they cannot be “responsible” in the same sense.. They can “woman up” to their responsibilities as women.

Which will put them in conflict with men. Which does not make women evil. It just makes them women.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@SJF

We should form a cult, though. That would be fun. I can’t wait.

Oh oh oh! I know what role I want!

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

Uh oh, stomachs roasting in hell….

ManlyMan
Guest
ManlyMan

Peterson has the exact same problem many TradCons-trying-to-be-red-pill have:

Starts with an “r”, ands with “gion”.

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

Region?

Just Beers
Guest
Just Beers

@ ManlyMan
“February 12, 2018 at 7:55 pm
Peterson has the exact same problem many TradCons-trying-to-be-red-pill have:

Starts with an “r”, ands with “

His understanding of religion and the power of human cultural stories are one of his great strengths. Actually fuels his red pill side.

Rollo’s explication of complementary roles shows up again and again (and again) in “religious” tales. And the male Hierarchical heroes journey, too, helps understand capitalism. Norse, Greek, Judeo-Christian, it’s all in there.

FoxGuy
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FoxGuy

JBP is extremely interesting, his videos do inspire me to action and I personally like this delivery style. Unfortunately, he has been unwilling to look into the abyss with regards to women in the videos I have seen of him, and I don’t necessarily think it’s because he is holding back. This is really the only difference I see with him and the Red Pill, but it’s a huge difference as someone has pointed out, perhaps the biggest difference of all and the true key to internalizing red pill. JBP regards women as rational actors from an egalitarian standpoint. I’m… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

“If there is a definition of ‘manning up’ in a Red Pill sense it is living a better way than your previous life that was informed by the falsehoods of your Blue Pill conditioning.” RULE 4 COMPARE YOURSELF TO WHO YOU WERE YESTERDAY, NOT TO WHO SOMEONE ELSE IS TODAY Jordan Peterson is intellectually intriguing, I say as an autodidact intellectual. He can get someone off on the intellectual realm. Last April of 2017 I had some guys out to cut down trees and inoculate good mushroom spawn into them at my Farm. It was a The Tribe attempted peak… Read more »

GW
Guest
GW

Great post Rollo! Overall, I 90+% agree with your analysis of Peterson and since I am well versed in RP (thanks to you et al) I can take the very valuable nuggets Peterson delivers and easily ignore the BP/egalitarian fallacies.

On the life is suffering bullet (the weakest on IMO), I don’t think he says you have to suffer, but, like Peck in “The Road Less Traveled” you have to accept that pain and death are given and thus transcend them (quit whining) and move forward productively.

Ronin
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Ronin

I first noticed Peterson on Public television “TVO” several years ago doing opinion pieces aimed at women “Wondering where all the good men had gone”which were very red pill. In a nut shell his belief is “Nobody gives a shit about men, so fix yourself”… l find very little at fault with that, it’s a way of saying that women are out for themselves and are monkey branchers…if you want a women you have to offer them what they want. In the Newman interview it was very evident he knows what shit tests, Game and Frame are and the best… Read more »

Ronin
Guest
Ronin
Mean Mr. Mustard
Guest
Mean Mr. Mustard

Years ago I read; The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History by Howard Bloom which correctly stated that;

Men were designed by nature to lead short, nasty, brutal lives and women were designed to lead long, miserable ones.

M Simon
Guest

If I had one question to ask Jordan it would be this; is there a dominance hierarchy in a healthy LTR or marriage?

Heh.

M Simon
Guest

status confirmed February 12, 2018 at 3:43 pm You can get a woman to reason. It takes a long time and your arguments must be absolutely bullet proof. You wear them down. It also helps if you can point out the specifics (with nuance) of their emotional reaction. I have been making consistent statements to the LTR for 40+ years. She is just starting to catch on. Women’s emotional reaction can be an enormous help if you are sensitive to every flutter and then reframe it in your frame. The one big secret I learned in the last 20 years… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

https://therationalmale.com/2018/02/02/the-marriage-game/comment-page-7/#comment-239074

M Simon
February 9, 2018 at 4:37 am

Rollo,

Ask Jordan if a family constitutes a dominance hierarchy.

Follow up if appropriate: How should the leader be decided.

Third: The optimum case.

CSI
Guest
CSI

I’m not sure on this, but does Peterson advocate the average man should marry, as part of his manly responsibilities? Marriage though is optional. Its supposed to be something you engage in, not because its the right thing to do, but because you’ll find it ultimately rewarding. For the average “beta” man, it probably used to be. If a man takes an honest look at what marriage will do for him, and decides its not worth it, then there should be no shame if he decides not to marry.

Just Beers
Guest
Just Beers

@SJF
“His Rule 4 is an obtuse explanation that is better explained by Reality Transurfing. Reality Transufing is much more concrete for the abstract injunction in Rule 4 of JBP.”

Do you recommend the entire series or just the first transurfing book?

Also, as an ENTP, I can very much understand where Forge is coming from regarding his interest in JBP.

M Simon
Guest

CSI
February 13, 2018 at 2:03 am

I would add two conditions.
1. A child is on the way or soon on the way. Very soon. This was in fact sort of traditional.
2. She has ONE-itis for you.

Otherwise it is 1. Not worth it or 2. Not feasible, because sooner or later you will make an “irretrievable mistake” in her eyes.

I had this subconsciously figured out when I got married in ’83. Well before the current mess was screaming.

SJB
Guest
SJB

@SJF: Blue Oyster Cult / Red Lobster Cult? Have breaded shrimp while shouting for more cowbell? Maybe I’ll give it a whirl. lol

I’ve tried, based on your recommendation, reading Zeland but it is just not grokking. I’ve put it down and will come back to it in a couple of months.

Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising
Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising

“Investors proposing to buy the assets of the Weinstein company, which includes a catalog of 279 films and a building in New York’s Tribeca, had reportedly planned to install a female-majority board.” The FI gets its hands on one of the biggest production houses in Hollywood. Get ready for a tsunami of movies that will push Feminine Supremacy and socially engineer men to voluntarily chop of their testicles. Women can’t create such businesses on their own, hence immoral tactics were used to take him down (I don’t condone what he did, but I don’t believe that those women are “victims”).… Read more »

UK Steve
Guest
UK Steve

Rather off-topic, I know, but check out this UK TV ad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIgdjNdCnK4

Not only does Mike have to work late, presumably to keep Lisa in the style to which she’s become accustomed, but he also has to “make up” for it by cooking her dinner when he gets home!

Adam
Guest

Men who are new to the Red Pill or who are relatively inexperienced want the Red Pill to be an ideology because they desire that comforting embrace. They are coming from the Blue Pill which as you have pointed out is an ideology so they want that form to continue. With an ideology you don’t have to think, it’s all about believing. The Red Pill is all about thinking which causes them to freak out.

As far as Red Pill being feminism for men, no, not at all. That’s known as MGTOW.

Ostnarc
Guest
Ostnarc

I agree with Rollo. I’ve watched a few videos on YouTube of Jordan and he strikes me as blue pill in many ways which I found a little strange after seeing a debate with him on channel 4 but hey he’s probably hasn’t read any of rollos work. Jordan is still a top guy though if a little misguided. I don’t think there is an easy answer to fix western society. Female primacy is the complete norm. Afew years ago I wouldn’t have even understood what female primacy was/is. That bloody rabbit hole is huge!

boulderhead
Guest

That bloody rabbit hole is huge! huge huge huge huge huge huge huge

JT McMahon
Guest
JT McMahon

“So, the Red Pill needs to remain a praxeology and it ought to always resist being force-fit into an ideology . . .” Exactly. Takes wisdom to see this though, because the human mind is “spring-loaded” in preference of defining ideologies and forming groups based on these. The power of RM is it has not become brittleized into an “-ism” with attendant articles of faith. It is vibrant, fresh, eagerly incorporating new data as it becomes available. It is more method, like science, than dogma. As soon as Red Pill becomes an “-ism” or a prescription of a set of… Read more »

Chimera
Guest
Chimera

I’m a long time reader and this is my first comment. Rollo. Your writings have saved a life. No hyperbole. I have nearly completed a close reading of JBP Maps of Meaning and can say that, although some of its core notions can be applied to the praxeology of the red pill, his work and lectures should *not* be considered a representation or summation of red pill principles. The RP focuses on the the hypergamous impulse that manifests as the purposeful actions and behaviors of the human female in intersexual mating practices. The chaos that results from unfettered hypergamy forces… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@SJF “His Rule 4 is an obtuse explanation that is better explained by Reality Transurfing. Reality Transufing is much more concrete for the abstract injunction in Rule 4 of JBP.” Do you recommend the entire series or just the first transurfing book? Also, as an ENTP, I can very much understand where Forge is coming from regarding his interest in JBP. @Just Beers Definitely the entire series. Reality transurfing. Steps I-V It’s $9.99 on Amazon Kindle, the torrented copies I’ve seen are shit. I have Kindle Unlimited and can borrow it for free. (And loopholes to transfer to USB and… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Ostnarc: Western society as we knew it is dead. It committed suicide in the early 20th century. Its rotting corpse continues to shuffle on as a zombie, which fools most into thinking it is still alive. When it finally falls over they will be shocked and stunned, much as the Romans were to discover that their Empire had fallen a hundred years before they noticed it. It cannot be “fixed” in the sense of restored. The only way is forward from where we are. Where it ends up may well be a Western society, but it will be a different… Read more »

walawala
Guest
walawala

This all sounds like one giant shit test…increasingly I’m getting:

“That’s sexist…”

“Don’t me rude..”

Etc…from girls I’m gaming and neg or sexualise the interactions with. But it’s all about tonality…these shit tests are now automatic reactions to anything that 40 years ago would have been basic masculinity.

Ignoring, smiling, amused mastery …name your pua response raises your value.

Man up is basically “don’t take my shit if you want me to fuck you”

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“as far as top advice on the manosphere Rollo and Peterson would be the top two that in my view hold the best answers and that make the most interesting analysis, It would be highly interesting to watch them discuss this topics live” Rollo can flip him. that would be a massive coup. dude just has to realize that the nine year old princess unicorn he fell in luv with in 1925 would fuck an entire prison full of dudes if you catch her in the right moment – and that in no way makes her “unlovable” or whatever it… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
Guest

@ Rollo – “I’ve locked horns with a few Red Pill guys recently who seem to think that ‘Red Pill’ is an ideology and it’s just the counter revolt to feminism; basically it is feminism for men.” Yup! The Red Pill is what YOU make of it. It is inevitable that you lock horns with some guys concerning this. Because some (probably many actually) are literally still subjugating themselves to women by thinking the Red Pill is a “counter revolt” to feminism. By thinking this, they place the feminist imperative in the position of authority, higher power, over what men… Read more »

T
Guest
T

@Chuck With respect The translation of “Suffering” in Buddhism as “boredom” is a very poor one. The First Noble Truth of Buddhism IS NOT the truth of “suffering” or “boredom.” It is the Truth of Dukkha. Dukkha is a (Pali/Sanskrit) term that literally refers to a wheel on a cart that is off-kilter. It is almost precisely what Rollo defined it as- (almost) perpetual discontent. A wheel that is off-kilter IS moving the cart straight a little bit of the time, but the rest it is not. Doesn’t mean the cart doesn’t move- though an off-kilter wheel is more likely… Read more »

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“In their minds, what men think and do are reactions to what women do rather than actions men initiate.”

ouch.

maybe they should have blown up more stuff as kids. they’d see exactly what kind of actions boys with lighters can initiate

go ahead and replace lighter with cock and the same is true because he’d know… I make that pussy wet. ME.

nasty twisting shiv there, man

kfg
Guest
kfg

“maybe they should have blown up more stuff as kids. they’d see exactly what kind of actions boys with lighters can initiate”

I still have the plastic army truck and cannon that my father gave me for my first birthday. None of the Bag O’ Hundred Army Men that came with it lived past my 12th.

Mitch
Guest
Mitch

Ronin Peterson is very careful of what he says, l’m pretty sure he’s laying out the prescription for the red pill in a way feminists can’t effectively attack . The channel four interview showing exactly how it works. I read him that way too. He’s aware of himself as an actor on a public stage, and aware that demonstrating full red-pill awareness would place him firmly – and permanently – outside the bounds of acceptable discourse. Of course he could totally be a BP in his relationship with his wife. But videos where he demonstrates deference to her could easily… Read more »

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“It is the Truth of Dukkha. Dukkha is a (Pali/Sanskrit) term that literally refers to a wheel on a cart that is off-kilter.” so the entire system is based on the idea that shit just ain’t right? lol. poor unhappy prince, so very tired of whores and hash which one is the system/religion that’s based on the idea that shit’s great? Pua maybe because fucking is great and it’s pretty much what we’re here to do years ago someone said after looking at a vix chart or something, “fuck it. I’m out. it’s craft beer and titties for me” does… Read more »

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

” Ever heard of Thomas Merton?”

no. thanks for the tip

kfg
Guest
kfg

“so the entire system is based on the idea that shit just ain’t right?”

No, on the idea that shit don’t revolve around your desires. That just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that it’s not right.

“it’s craft beer and titties for me.” does that version of the west have a chance at survival? we’ll find out”

Yes. It might even be where to put the safe money, but the path to it won’t be all titties and beer.

Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising

“Not only does Mike have to work late, presumably to keep Lisa in the style to which she’s become accustomed, but he also has to “make up” for it by cooking her dinner when he gets home!”

Now all Mike needs to do is the dishes, “clean the bedroom” and hope/pray/beg for the obligatory starfish sex, and be understanding if Lisa refuses because she has a headache (again).

JBP will be so proud of Mike. Life is a suffering …. after all.

Daniel
Guest
Daniel

@Chimera

The red pill helps us get laid but it does nothing to extinguish the existential anxiety that western men collectively feel. What value does a man have beyond the sexual?

Very well put. TRP tends to be preoccupied with sex, and JBP is not. Women aren’t the most important thing in life. Even if you go your own way, there’s more to life than getting in shape, making money and having a hobby.

lh
Guest
lh

SJB:my sense of it is JBP considers Maps of Meaning to be his work; his definitions are therein. You might gain traction by critiquing within what he considers the scope of the critique-able and then expanding into your areas of expertise. Otherwise it may just come off as ad homimen. I grant you that young men may not hear JBP’s definition plus contextual framework and that’s a pity. His transition from pedagogue to celebrity has shorten a semester’s work into Y-minute video clips which are then re-mixed to present whatever the mixer desires. Chaos. This is very true. Skip all… Read more »

JT McMahon
Guest
JT McMahon

“As you might guess, I strongly disagree with negotiating intimacy. You cannot negotiate genuine desire. You can obligate a woman to fuck you (now called rape) via negotiation, but you cannot organically inspire genuine desire in a woman.” Of Course. Because desire is of limbic-brain. Not thinking-brain. But the viability of “negotiated intimacy” is the inevitable result of an intellectualized approach founded on some basic beliefs i.e., dogmas. Peterson is not being disingenuous; he does not even see the dogmas. Got to deny a lot of reality to preserve an intellectually intensive thinking ideology founded upon dogma. And that precisely… Read more »

ReaderY
Guest
ReaderY

If Peterson got divorce raped, he might change his perspective. Especially if she was branch swinging to another man on standby. It just takes one divorce rape, initiated by the woman of course, to change your idealistic blue pilled view of women and their hypergameous nature.

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“shit don’t revolve around your desires.” gonna be a tough sell then. and I even practice stare at the wall. i’d be more interested in something that supports my feelings of power like obama. that new portrait is amazing. only one guy I’ve seen so far called it… he has two right hands (not left hand invisible thumb with secret sixth finger – just hidden right thumb) obama’s religion allows him to believe that he is the first man, adam, who was made with allahs hands, and that he alone will speak to allah on mankinds behalf he is totally… Read more »

status confirmed
Guest
status confirmed

@M Simon Can you offer some stories that involve the “abuse” that’s worked for you? Blax has gotten through to me on several points using stories. Thomas Shelby in Peaky Blinders and Clint Eastwood in High Plains Drifter are good examples of what it looks like when you simply act, without discussion, without permission and without consensus. It sounds pathetic as I type it, but I’m trying to get back to my natural state; before I started hedging my bets in the world and trying to protect my progress in my corner of the world. I went way overboard with… Read more »

lh
Guest
lh

I think it’s clear Jordan Peterson lacks experience with women. His “game” is basically something he is advocating as an option: Find yourself a profession and work 80h a week for 30 years, it will surely give you the status to which some woman will be attracted enough to be your wife. And that’s not all wrong. But it’s also a very, very limited approach to women. And it might indeed be bad, if a figure of authority like Peterson has become is advocating this kind of solutions – wich will fail on many. But at the same time this… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

Daniel

TRP is NOT preoccupied with sex. That’s an interpretation

Novaseeker
Guest
Novaseeker

Peterson would be a tough one to convert to TRP, I think. He’s principally a scientist, and so he’s intellectually very geared towards peer-reviewed studies (many of which he’s conducted himself) following academic-style procedures and regression analysis and so on. He will listen to anecdata, but to the extent that it doesn’t line up with his understanding of the “scientifically proven facts”, he won’t be quick to accept it. In other words — his paradigm is based on his scientific worldview (note, scientific, not just rational — it’s a specific epistemology here, not just rational reasoning) and, in his case,… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Fleezer:

“…He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man’s soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?”

There’s your God of Titties and Beer Through Personal Power

lh
Guest
lh

Another RedPill statement Peterson agrees on is “men test ideas, women test men”.

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

““why am I such a piece of shit that you won’t take me seriously” or “why would you live with her and you won’t even talk about it with me”. ” these are some of the magic words. you should be able to make her cry in under 30 seconds too, just like a little sister. you got it. “Piece of shit” -Status- Confirmed has serious plate-spinin’ itch. whoever wings with him is gonna be in for a great time this is so great. every single day guys are waking up. just imagine a full bloom a player once said:… Read more »

fleezer
Guest
fleezer

“There’s your God of Titties and Beer Through Personal Power”

I would be working for free in your non-existent cult

but only because you would be happy when I left without saying goodbye

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Another RedPill statement Peterson agrees on is “men test ideas, women test men”.”

Yes and no. He’s confining the statement to the Ivory Tower, ignoring that one of the ideas men test is “I think I can beat the crap out of you take your stuff. Including a War Bride.”

Novaseeker
Guest
Novaseeker

do n-counts for fags count? if they do, his was over 500

Heh. Gay “game” is mostly like “girl game” — all about looks, because they’re trying to attract guys, and guys are driven by looks (gay guys, too).

His key line in that same song was this: “but when you shake your ass, they notice fast, some mistakes were built to last!”. Yep, exactly — that’s “gay game” in a nutshell right there.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11
Mitch
Guest
Mitch

@SJF Off-topic. Just wanted to respond briefly to your Meyers Briggs stuff at the end of the last thread. I’ve never gotten anywhere with that because my results are always pretty inconclusive, and will vary depending on where I’m at in my life when I take the test. I guess you could say that my personality is not particularly fixed or stable over long periods of time. And not easily categorized. I’m always I and N, but the last two letters seem to be up for grabs. It makes sense because for most people it can take quite awhile to… Read more »

M Simon
Guest

status confirmed
February 13, 2018 at 8:42 am

I don’t think there is a formula. Yo have to calibrate it to the girl.

Some need a “beating”. For others a few swats on the fanny suffice.

But just for your titillation. She “likes” hearing stories about being forced to watch me love another woman while she is forced to watch and help. “It makes you drop your barriers.”

Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising

“do n-counts for fags count? if they do, his was over 500”

Yes, they do. Because men (even gay men) don’t lie about n count.

With females however, it is quite subjective – “if its not in the area code, then it does note count.”
– “If its with a girl, it does not count”
– “If it anal or oral, it does not count”
– “If it is with an ‘Aziz’, it does not count”
– “If she was drunk, it does not count”
…. blah blah blah

May the Player Reset in Peace:

Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising

* Rest

JT McMahon
Guest
JT McMahon

In the spirit of self-criticism over my previous posts (and in defense of Peterson): Perhaps the “Lost Generation” isn’t lost at all. Perhaps these see all too-clearly; and this is why they are walking. Perhaps the accomplishment of strenuous, death-defying, courageous things in that critical early stage of manhood requires self-deception. Perhaps we need to believe there is some great reward -the love of a true woman- at the end of that endeavor, even if there is no reward. Perhaps playing “Judas Goat” – knowingly or not – is the role Peterson is burdened with. Would I have accomplished those… Read more »

JT McMahon
Guest
JT McMahon
kfg
Guest
kfg

“There may be fewer takers for the role “suicide bomber” if the truth of “seventy black-eyed virgins” was known.”

Sure, but more motorcycle street racers.

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