Potential vs. Struggle
“Women don’t care about the struggle. They wait at the finish line and fuck the winners.”
Rich Cooper
This is a popular belief in the Manosphere today. Hypergamous stress is so intense that women have turned into mercenaries with respect to vetting the men they’ll accept to plan a future with. I’ll admit, a lot of well-meaning Red Pill men believe women’s Hypergamous Filter is necessarily amoral if not overtly cruel. The ill-informed critics of Hypergamy believe in a binary extreme. They presume that all those Red Pill guys are self-defeated by the idea that all women are prostitutes and only “out to get theirs“. This is simplistic ignorance of the concept of Hypergamy meant to dissuade the curious from Red Pill truths that they refuse to process. But do they kind of have a point though?
Virtually every extreme of MGTOW and the Mens Rights Movement have some open variation of how Hypergamy is a straight jacket and
“Why bother with a woman for anything other than a short term fuck if her Hypergamous nature will just predispose her to jumping ship to the first guy who comes along with a bigger dick or a bigger wallet?”
I covered all of these is detail in Hypergamy – The Misconceptions a while ago in case you’re curious as to why these are unfounded, and more often deliberate, misunderstandings of women’s nature. And no, that doesn’t mean I’m backpedaling on anything I’ve ever written about Hypergamy.
A couple weeks ago I got wrapped up in a Twitter exchange about the conflict between whether women indeed wait for the winners at the finish line or they make calculated bets about a man’s future potential.
From a pragmatic point of view I’m very much inclined to agree with this assessment. Yes, it makes women seem overly mercenary with respect to Hypergamy, but I’ve said it as much myself in any number of prior essays:
Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.
The Marriage Game
In a purely evolutionary context it’s true; because a woman’s sexual market value – and ultimately her only agency with men – is perishable Hypergamy cannot afford for a woman to waste her time on a ‘good bet‘. This truth is a basic, Darwinistic, rule for women’s sexual strategy.
Despite all the social conventions to make them believe otherwise, women’s hindbrains know that their sexual agency and prime fertility window in life is limited. This creates a degree of urgency in a woman as she gets closer to, or ages past, the Wall. This understanding necessitates tradeoffs, but optimally a woman would prefer not to take chances with her reproductive future – and ultimately her life’s future.
For the more nihilistically inclined men of the ‘sphere, this Darwinistic determinism seems like a reproductive death sentence. If women only fuck the winners at the finish line, and you’re a loser, you may as well give up and go jerk off, right? This defeatism is a core tenet of the Black Pill.
All that said, a lot of people disagree with this assessment:
Jack knows I love him, but he is living with a girl much younger than himself. While I think that’s cool, and proof of Red Pill concept, he is actually living out the point being made here. Statistically, women tend to prefer men who are 5 to 7 years their senior. Another aspect of women’s evolved mental firmware is the natural attraction to older men as prospective long term mates. Women know that it takes men longer to mature into the genuine value that her Hypergamous Filters test for. An older rich man is always more believable than a younger rich man. Women tend to pair with a man their senior because Hypergamy doesn’t need to wait on his potential when he’s already a proven commodity.
Most of the criticism in this thread centers on exaggerating the age of “marriageable men” to the point of absurdity, but women do look for long term security as a prime requisite of the men they hope to pair for life with. There is a root-level presumption in women, correct or not, that an older man will have established the status and resources a woman needs in a long term partner. In fact, our feminine-primary social order shames men for not preparing to assume this role of security provider for women by a certain age (usually 30ish).
Alexander is also a good friend, but I’m going to disagree with half of his assessment. Women don’t readily recognize potential in men. In fact most of them are piss poor at it. This is because they’ve been socially conditioned to focus more on themselves (and exacerbated by their innate solipsism) than be concerned with making a good assessment of men’s potential for future success.
Now, before you think I’m siding with the Hypergamous nihilists, this did give me pause to step back and assess my stance on women reading men’s potentials to provide for their future security. And that last part is the most important because women’s sexual strategy has two parts: Alpha Fucks – short term sexual needs – and Beta Bucks – long term provisioning and security needs. It’s the latter that we’re discussing in this debate.
Women want to fuck the winners in the short term, but they will also assess a man’s potential for the long term.
Hypergamy cannot afford to wait for 100% perfect confirmation of a man’s Alpha status before she has sex with him. This Hypergamic bypass is actually one vulnerability women have with respect to well calibrated Game.
The Epiphany Phase Revisited
In the essay Women’s Existential Fear I also made the following proposition:
The Existential Fear in women is that their innate, Hypergamous Filter, their Feminine Intuition, might be fooled, and by being fooled she may either die or have her reproductive potential compromised for her lifetime by bearing and raising the child of man who is a suboptimal Hypergamous choice for her – a man who exerted his will over her Hypergamous choosing filters.
Making Choices
All of this presumes that a woman is in some way testing for a man’s potential. Even women’s autonomous shit testing is a confirmation of this. So yes, women do look for potential in men. Some better than others. The Hypergamous Filter is an imperfect tool which is exactly why women needed to mystify their feminine intuition in popular understanding. Men had to be kept in the dark as to a woman’s motives because their filters have always been intuitive guesswork. This is a vulnerability that men might exploit – with good Game for instance – if women were ever honest about it.
Not all women can fuck the winners so they have to make calculated bets on men. This is also a reason women rely on social proof and the preselection cues of other women. If other women find a guy to be a ‘good bet’ it provides her a short cut to getting to intimacy. Again, Hypergamy cannot afford to miss out on a socially confirmed ‘good bet’. And yes, this is also a vulnerability in women’s vetting process that men with good Game regularly exploit.
So, the tradeoff is this: when a woman is at her peak sexual market value (SMV) she has the leisure to fuck the winners at the finish line. The more her SMV decays the fewer her options become, and the more likely it is that her necessity requires her to make a ‘bet’ on a man’s future potential. This is the primary reason women opt for the Beta in Waiting around her Epiphany Phase. Necessity forces her to go with good potential.
One of the ways feminism and female-primacy sabotages women’s ability to vet for good potential is in the mythology surrounding their sexual viability as they get older. Social conventions constantly reinforce the false idea that a woman’s SMV is indefinite – and by extension her agency over men should also be indefinite. This is why Blank Slate idealism and Social Constructionism are a preferred mythology for women. Without the Blank Slate a woman would be forced to accept the evolved realities of her sex. The Blank Slate is a prime source of women’s solipsistic denial of her own nature.
Turnkey Men
Do women care about the struggle? Do women ever appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate their own realities? I explored this topic a long time ago in Appreciation and I’m still going with my old assessment, no.
It may be that a man of Rich Cooper’s age, affluence and status only attracts the ‘finish line girls’ because he’s already a made man. He’s an attractive catch because he’s already a proven commodity. Thus, he tends to attract women who are looking for a ‘Turnkey’ man with an established world into which they want to move.
I should also add that most middle aged women, past their sexual prime and well past any long term potential they may’ve had themselves universally look for the ‘Turnkey’ man – once they’re done playing cougar immediately after their divorce. This is another illustration of women’s sexual strategy from the post-Wall side. Alpha Fucks – Beta Bucks never changes, only the context does. Post divorce women go through a second Epiphany Phase right after the divorce. Play cougar and fuck the fun college guys if they can because it’s easy, but be on the lookout for a ‘Turnkey’ winner who’s still ignorant of his Blue Pill conditioning at 45.
Whether it’s a woman in her late 20s or a post-Wall ‘mature woman‘ a man’s struggles to become her ideal is largely irrelevant to her. WHile women are speculators with respect to men it’s the end result of those struggles that’s the operative for her. Almost every woman who disagreed in the Twitter thread above all had some success story of how their brilliant feminine intuition led to them investing in the man they’re so proud to call a husband now. None of them were about how they made a horrible mistake in betting their future on a losing horse. So it’s important to see how the results skew for women.
Women will readily make claims on Relational Equity as an insurance against his leaving her later, once he’s achieved that potential. His struggle and her bearing through it with him is only important in that it produced the positive results she’d hoped for. That ‘dedication’ of seeing it through is her relationship insurance. It’s why women despise and reinforce the “trophy wife” meme. It’s prime indignation to have a man betray her speculation on him by rewarding a younger, hotter, tighter woman at the finish line.
Your struggle is her burden despite you having to bear it under duress of her abandoning you if you failed. Women will never appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate a reality, her sexual/life strategy, she believes was always her due. You just did what you were supposed to do as a man. Women believe it is their due to pair with a man who is worthy of her social media inflated ego. If that sounds harsh remember that women regularly bemoan the lack of men who are their “equal partners” in both money and education well after their prime SMV years are past.
Finally, the reason the finish line metaphor is apt is because more women than ever are postponing marriage in the expectation that ‘Turnkey’ made men will be waiting and available when they hit 31-33 years old, rather than investing in men with good potential in their early to mid 20s. Doing so would mean sacrificing their peak SMV Party Years when someone like Sheryl Sandberg convinces them to wait for the ‘Right Guy‘. It’s simple pragmatism for a woman not to bet her reproductive future on an unproven commodity so early in life. If she does, and it works out for the best, she’s practically sainted by the Sisterhood for her prudence and sacrifice for him. Behind every great man is a woman, right?
But if she chooses unwisely and her life goes to hell she’s wasted her own potential on a bad bet. Social conventions can mitigate this of course. Men can always be blamed for her downfall, but she’s still saddled with the consequences of that bad bet. And it is exactly these consequences of a bad Hypergamous choice that the Feminine Imperative will bend all its power to legally and socially insure against for women (i.e. legal abortion, child support laws, #MeToo, the Duluth Model of feminism).
All of this is why women are pushing their decision to marry, if at all, back to older and older ages. The average age of first marriage today is 27-28 for women, and the overall marriage rate has been in free-fall for decades now. This is why. This evolved dynamic is conflicting with our present age’s social imperatives for women and the falsehoods they are conditioned to believe about their sex from the earliest ages.
If you liked this topic you can also listen to my discussion about it with Donovan Sharpe here:
Everyone caught this, yes http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/rooshv-bans-pickup-artist-talk-after-religious-awakening.html
Apologies if it’s posted already
I’m the only R left in the Manosphere.
I’m the only R left in the Manosphere.
You’re the rare one whose message hasn’t diverged or degraded.
I do suspect this is all an epic troll from Roosh… Time will tell.
I have listened to Roosh for the last 3 years and I saw this coming. His gradual transformation was apparent in every new episode of “Roosh V Live”, he went from a PUA to Nationalist to Black Pilled and now God Pilled. He is the most dangerous to the system now . And he is a creation of the LEFT. He was a small time notorious PUA and “they” went after him, forcing him to dig deeper “who” and “why” are they after him, whose agenda does he threaten? This lead him to being a Nationalist and become a Trump… Read more »
I’m proposing the creation of the Grey Pill….it’s to cover off thinking and behaviours brought up earlier relating to “paying for it…”
If Black Pill is about withdrawing totally than some weasely middle-ground position for those who are alpha only in their own mind and believe paying to keep girls interested, or for sex is some sign of that status.
The Grey Pill…it’s a thing. Perfect for wishy-washy MGTOW’s who still aren’t quite ready to go into the bush, build a cabin and wank to their computers all day—because they want to.
Yeah the thing is that the red pill isn’t, and isn’t meant to be, a philosophy. It’s a crash course in reality when it comes to inter-sexual dynamics and how that works in the current context, the factors that go into that and determine it, and strategies for managing that and achieving your inter-sexual goals in this present environment. It isn’t an overarching philosophy. You tend to get massive fail when guys try to make it into one, because it’s ill-suited. It’s a praxeology, as Rollo often says, backed up by information about inter-sexual dynamics and information about the current… Read more »
So many lolz
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/nyregion/nxivm-cult-trial.html
“The women afflicted by jealousy eventually included Daniela and, it appears, her older and younger sisters. All three women had sexual relationships with Mr. Raniere, she testified.”
Post worthy… “Daniela said she gave up a scholarship to a Swiss school to move to New York State when she was only 16 to help Mr. Raniere and his followers in their purported efforts to end hunger, improve the lot of humanity and stave off the destruction of the planet. She made the decision even though she had not met the guru-like Mr. Raniere, known to his followers as “Vanguard.” But she had conjured up a mental image based upon descriptions from others.” Now that kind of pull is something… ” She described a crude atmosphere, in which he… Read more »
It is funny Rollo how your biggest fans always turn on you.
Forgive my ignorance, but what and who is this ” globohomo “? These little catchphrases…. And what does ” globomoism ” have to do with red pill or sex? Re: Roosh ( disclaimer: I’m not looking for a protracted fight or endless defending, just giving an opinion ). He’s always struck me as confused and uncomfortable, particularly over the last 6-7 years.. I agree with Nova’s take above. I do think a lot of it is because of the attacks he’s had over the last 5+ years, but imo, his reaction showed that he wasn’t really about that life. A… Read more »
Roosh says he was tripping on shrooms when he made the switch to God
This is just getting boring now, going round and round rehashing the same tired old concepts. Stop all this navel-gazing & get a life gentlemen. Do something fun and dangerous with your crew. Stop analysing women to within an inch of their existence. Very few of them are interesting beyond sex these days. It’s taken all the fun out of it. We’re all fucked anyways, what with climate change really starting to kick in and our rigged, corrupt political and financial system. Fuck women and what they want… Go ride a fast bike through the twisties instead of chasing hos.… Read more »
Rollo’s the last R? Oh please. Nature hates a void and the manosphere evo-bio develops, like, right now, in front of us. There’s another around the bend. There’s no Omega among us. Rollo remains for one reason alone: His intention was based on a universal, sustainable attempt at truth. No ulterior motives which is ironic as Rollo suggests Greene’s Laws of Power as required reading. Power is one long example of how to fool others though confidence men, manipulation, secrecy, lies, machinations, schemes, showmanship. Where does that above fit in here at TRM? How does sneaky-power factor in TRM’s perpetuation?… Read more »
@ Blaximus ” Fyi, I am in a position to have sex with ” younger ” women. But I don’t tend to pedestalize according to age’ Being attracted to young women is not pedestalizing. It is a natural biological attraction. If you have better options and don’t exercise them then I would concur that it is because of a ‘moralistic” approach you have taken which really is a result of your social conditioning. It is not wrong or right, it is what it is. “Again, go bang dozens of hundreds of the hottest, youngest ( within reason) women” The only… Read more »
” His intention was based on a universal, sustainable attempt at truth.”
Well so was Heartiste’s… And Heartiste was silenced against his will as a result. He didn’t go on the blog and shut down the forum.
@Rollo:
I’m the only R left in the Manosphere.
Rollo, ya rrreally R…
Hey there seth10.
You got your shit together. I can tell.
I’m trying to understand your background a bit. Oblige me a bit here with some demographics.
How old are you, in what size city do you live, your BMI, your n-count, are you from a nuclear family and are your parents yet married.
Again thank you for your contribution. Some OMG guys here need your fresh perspective of masculinity. Give us more my man!
@SliverFOX:
“Go ride a fast bike through the twisties instead of chasing hos. It’s a lot more real, way more dangerous and a much bigger buzz…”
That is what I have been doing myself. Got back into riding after 11 years. I don’t read or listen to “Red Pill” sermons anymore … not even the Red Man Group. Any screen time I have is dedicated only watching Harley Davidson videos. Waiting for the 2020 models to hit the showroom floor in August 2019.
Seth
Seems that you men need a little vice in your systems.
lol.
They tell you where the bathrooms are yet?
Seth 😂😂 You’re new. We’ve covered this a hundred times already. The reason I don’t drive my Hemi Baracuda to work every day is because it’s rare. Not average. Not tons of them everywhere you look. …and the average young inexperienced Honda accord driver couldn’t comprehend be able to drive it. Re: pedestalizing – there’s a huge difference between what you’re attracted to and how you perceive what it actually is. It’s how you think and talk about it. Re: enjoying life stuff. 😂 doing that. Have been doing that. Haven’t been ” restrained “. But it’s an excellent message,… Read more »
@ Sentient
I don’t disagree with you re: CH.
I’m not judging his intentions.
CH didn’t disappear for lack of sincerity.
That story isn’t over.
Ignorance can be forgiven, but not feigned ignorance. What is wrong with Catchphrases? Isn’t “Red Pill” a catchphrase? HOMOGLOBO is not important for this forum or me personally. But it is quite important to Roosh and some of his followers. It is a phenomenon and is quite real, but I am not going to delve into it. It does not effect me personally, but I like Roosh’s take on it and for exposing the Forest for the Trees. And this Gentlemen is the reason why Rollo is now the only “R” in the manosphere. He discusses Red Pill only in… Read more »
So, you know why it is but won’t tell?I
I have a fairly broad vocabulary, but I haven’t heard that catchphrase outside of particular circles incubutt.
Anyone else wanna clue me in?
And that phrase should remain in those limited circles. It is not relevant to this forum. If you are keen, why not hear it from the horse’s mouth and look up what Roosh has to say on it. Why do you need me to explain it to you? So that you can take this thread to page # MCXVII arguing about it? You have a lot of free time, I don’t.
All, enjoy your weekend and as SilverFox said, go out and do something fun.
Incubus ” I -could -tell-you-but-i’d-have-to-kill-you ” rising,
😂 thanks anyway. I’ll find out.
…limited circles…when it’s on the web😂😂
Nice try, but I am not going bit the bait. Get a life, Blax “I-got-shot-in-the-dick-but-survived-to-pee-from-my-ass” imus
“Why do you need me to explain it to you? ”
Incubus throwing bait. Lol.
Defensiveness is a tell of insecurity. There’s lack of confidence in his own belief.
😂
Took the bait while exclaiming not to do so, with a lame ass retort no less.
Luv ya Inyourbutt Rising.
Roosh says “obsession with the butt leads to homosexuality”. Stop having gay fantasies Blax or at least try and stay in the closet.
Eh When I was a wee lad, one of the first things I’d been shown was that when another kid showed his weakness or insecurity, you didn’t jump all over him ( unless you were a bully), but you did make note and catalogue it away until he came at you. Then he could be methodically taken apart. Shit, I was 10 when I understood that. Incufuck is correct, in that he’s not beholden to explain anything to anyone, but I didn’t ask him directly. Palma gave examples without the snark.😁 that’s the mark of maturity and confidence. Incucuck otoh… Read more »
The UN says that digital assistants are too female and too submissive. Calls for them to be programmed by women to be activists for pound me too and gender equality:
https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000367416.page=1
Roosh has jumped the shark. Is he re-inventing himself again as the Red Pill of religion? BS indicators are peaking into the red (pun intended). A while back he re-invented himself as the red pill of politics and took “donations” from stormfront trolls to let them dominate comments on his website, supposedly because he believed in “free speech” and they shared a common enemy in feminists. If roosh isn’t an opportunist, then he just looks confused. Maybe this has more to do with roosh turning 40, and he has the face of 60 y/o, and his clown game doesn’t get… Read more »
All this back and forth without any serious contribution (either ideas or help for men) is seriously dull. Any time someone attempts to express some alternative ideas to the cult of pussy, they get downvoted. The regulars need to do a little pondering about why they are here. Maybe lurk moar.
“Seems that you men need a little vice in your systems…..That’ll free you all up.”
OMG, I don’t have a desire to do any of those things Seth suggested. There must be something wrong with me…
And what am I not free from?
Oh yeah, I’m tied down by monogamy. That’s it.
That’s Moronic. No man is tied down by it.
“Oh yeah, I’m tied down by monogamy. That’s it.
That’s Moronic. No man is tied down by it”.
SJF
Hell, I’m trying to ease off the throttle more, so I’m not sure what Seth is on about.
Palma
Great and factual point. Game is applicable across the entire spectrum of a man’s life, but the one dimensional concentration concerning women almost demands that one become some kind of mental hoarder.
@Palma “All ok until you suddenly want kids, then if it’s a conscious decision you need to know who you are, where you’re going, and who you’re going there with as a partner. Roosh has been more about living the life of the degnerate alpha male. Desire to have children is innate and would typically manifest itself earlier in life and in different ways. When man makes big 180 degree life change around age 40, its almost always mid-life crisis brought on by declining T-levels. This combined with declining web traffic stats which he’ll do anything to reverse. Even sell… Read more »
Pertinent to the post, perhaps it’s as simple as Roosh wanting to have a woman invest in him, and he feels this is the best way to do it. How much do you think one particular woman is involved?
@Just Beers
“Pertinent to the post, perhaps it’s as simple as Roosh wanting to have a woman invest in him, and he feels this is the best way to do it. How much do you think one particular woman is involved?”
More like roosh is trying re-position himself in the manosphere with beta male provider game. Because his in-field nightclub game demonstrations from year 2000 aren’t working when small town girls in eastern europe all have access to tinder, and his beard is going gray overnight.
ot of well-meaning Red Pill men believe women’s Hypergamous Filter is necessarily amoral if not overtly cruel
……
Hypergammy is cruel when you’re on the loosing end of it.
SJF Waitaminute, Seth does have some points. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Young men absolutely need to do everything they want to and can conceive of. Sow those wild oats and get out in the world. That’s mainly how most men will avoid regrets late in life. I’ve done everything Seth laid out and more before I was 25. My motto was ” don’t knock it till you try it “, and I think by doing that it freed my mind up for other things. So when young guys that haven’t actually pushed their life envelopes can’t… Read more »
“Because his in-field nightclub game demonstrations from year 2000 aren’t working when small town girls in Eastern Europe all have access to tinder”
hot guy with basic game > average looking guy with cringy outdated 00s PUA game.
“and his beard is going gray overnight”
irrelevant.
“A women’s whole mating strategy is based on making sure her needs are met.” “Women are not the enemy.” The way I think about it is inspired by the article ‘Attractive Women Want it All: Good Genes, Economic Investment, Parenting Proclivities and Emotional Commitment’ in the journal of Evolutionary Psychology, where they identify these four clusters and note that ‘women will attempt to secure the best combination of all desired qualities from the same man’ (some women get around this optimization problem by finding men who agree to be cuckolded). This stood out to me as a standard mathematical optimization… Read more »
@j
“and his beard is going gray overnight” ….. “irrelevant.”
In this case I’m guessing that roosh wasn’t on track to become the next Dos Equis man. Stay thirsty my friends.
Blax Very nicely stated about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, it is pushing the envelope. Making your abilities limitless. Not being bound by conventions. I took issue at those bucket list things that Seth put up. Sleeve tattoos? Must travel to South America? Grabbing two hookers by pussy at one time. YGBFSM. Sure those sound fine to some. It’s not necessary and in my book not close to a desire. I’ve done a lot of things and pushed through resistence. And I don’t feel limitations, although they are there. I take issue at the bucket list.… Read more »
“My thinking here is that trying to define the problem in this way could give us some additional insights into female behavior… ”
As an RTS game, so you can juggle the parameters and see how they play out. Add an evolutionary module.
Try using your women as shock troops and see how that plays out for your nation.
Lol.
I luvs ya kfg.
( No ” homo “, global or otherwise….well…sapien…or not )
I don’t get the prejudice against MGTOW here. I believe every man is obligated to work and support himself to the best of his abilities. But relationship and sex? Those are purely optional. If he doesn’t want to engage in those, that is fine and he is under no obligation to do so.
Since roosh ‘converted’ is he going to refund all the tainted profits from his Bang book sales and website properties up to this point? That would be the christian thing to do, right? Answer the question, roosh. Prove you’re not part of the globohomo conspiracy. Put your money where your mouth is.
test comment
@Dragnet:
We have liftoff.
Test reading of test comment.
Walawala
“The Grey Pill…it’s a thing. Perfect for wishy-washy MGTOW’s who still aren’t quite ready to go into the bush, build a cabin and wank to their computers all day—because they want to.”
I was actually just thinking about this walking back
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KfZlkRPMpvE
Redpill aware betabux here. Don’t understand the down votes Seth has been getting as dude has been dropping truths. People seem to get hung up on Looks vs Game vs Money when from an evo-psych standpoint, these are all really just ways in which value is manifested and normally co-exist in some variant with each other A Man’s sexual engagement with a woman is essentially Transactional. You are trading either Looks (genetics), game (salesmanship), money (resources) in some combination for access to poonani. Which form of value a woman prioritizes as making the sale comes down to context, demographics, SMV… Read more »
@zen
Too many mopeds on your parking lot lately?
Ability.
No trading.
@Zendude “why the negative reaction to the Seth dude?” “I’ve even raw dogged escorts before”. Everything you wrote to rationalize why you think its ok for old men to bang whores (literal whores lol). “Well if game and looks are resources guys use to get sex, then why can’t I use money, which is also a resource, to get sex? lol. It’s fine, bro. Wanna bang hookers. Go ahead….just know that this is what you’ll miss out on: “I think one of the indicators of whether a woman actually wants to bang you is rawdogging” I used to think this… Read more »
Escorts.😐 Anything is possible, but if I found myself in a position where I had to hang an escort, that’s a fail on my part. Something went wrong. There are more non-escort women than there are escorts. Raw dogging a whore? Oh my. The examples never mentioned masculinity once. Women are biologically attracted to it. Ever see a wealthy guy get divorced? A handsome man ( cough* brad Pitt )? Does that ever happen? Why? Because money and ” looks ” are external things. Sure, you’ll get sex with either or both, but so will the pool boy or supermarket… Read more »
@J You got reading comprehension problems. It’s the other way around. People in LTRs with money (and who value both their LTR, time and productive capacity) and with an itch to scratch ain’t gonna hit the pavement somewhere in Eastern Europe to do “day game.” Nor are they—unless it comes easy and low risk (perhaps if said dude is good looking or very high status)—gonna spin plates. They are already getting enough love from their partners but sexual variety is the spice of life At any rate, your point is just irrelevant. This is about what it means to be… Read more »
@Seth & Zendude, While it is fun to always play on my turf and have the power this will get me the label “doesn’t play well with others”.
In the modern “first” world it is common to view every relationship as transactional, as if all were adopted and never had parents that loved them. Nobody pays parents.
Try learning to relate to your fellow man minus the transaction.
If money is all you have I wouldn’t want to take any.
@wahoo I was referring to transactional in the biological sense. Obviously day to day we relate to each other as human beings. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t step back and see the objective biological mechanisms underpinning reality. Hence why some men end up getting zeroed out as a result of hypergamy. One can relate to others as humans while also acknowledging our animal nature @blaximus Brad Pitt ain’t redpill aware. All I’m saying is that being a beta buxx is a viable strategy provided you know what you’re getting yourself into. The money thing is just a red herring. The… Read more »
@Zendude
“Nor are they—unless it comes easy and low risk”
“If a dude is already getting plenty of lays with minimal effort and without fame then he’s probably ridiculously good looking”.
Alright, mate. Bang your hookers. Because gaming girls is sooooooooo incredibly difficult if you’re not ‘ridiculously good looking’ haha.
“The dude with an empty apartment with a mattress on the floor.”
Actually had this. Only furnishing in the place.
Anyhow, the concept of “trading” is weak and misguided. Dog logic run rampant bereft of experience.
Re transactional sex:
Whores conduct transactions with zero sexual desire. It’s coldly calculating. Women who have sex because of intense desire act like addicts. Their reason for wanting sex is nothing like whores. No transaction is involved in desire sex.
But keep on buffering if it makes you happy. Of course, if you’re lazy, you will want to avoid self-improvement, because that takes work.
“ain’t gonna hit the pavement somewhere in Eastern Europe to do “day game.””
Well if we put EE aside (cause why go there when there are girls here) – false…
‘ridiculously good looking’
“All I’m saying is that being a beta buxx is a viable strategy provided you know what you’re getting yourself into.”
You don’t need to know…
I dont get why men who enjoy banging hookers feel the need to justify themselves on manosphere blogs. Just go do your own thing. If you live in a place like vegas where escorts hand out business cards on the street corner while you’re waiting for the walk signal in broad daylight, I could see how men could come to see it as no different from gambling on sports. But whats with the need to propose it as redpill solution for other men?
@Fact A more interesting question is why the collective herd often need to come in and justify their life-choices by calling out those with dissenting views as “justifying themselves.” Ironic isn’t is? Fact is (no pun intended) that I’m not even advocating chasing whores. The point made is that from a biological standpoint, paying for sex, game, or just leveraging looks with zero game are all viable sexual strategies. I’m not moralizing here If a physicist was to point out that the universe is comprised of sub-atomic particles in fields of force governed by physical laws, will you moralize? So… Read more »
@asd gamer “Whores conduct transactions with ZERO sexual desire. It’s coldly calculating. Women who have sex because of intense desire act like addicts. Their reason for wanting sex is NOTHING like whores. NO transaction is involved in desire sex. You’re very categorical and lack nuance–as if everything is an Either/Or proposition–which really has the effect of showing your inexperience Smoke a doobie, do something crazy for a change, maybe bang a whore and see how it’s really like Or maybe not… AUTISM: “Rigid, inflexible thinking is a common characteristic of individuals with ASD, and therefore individuals may have trouble problem-solving… Read more »
Not moralizing or justifying. Prostitution is one of the oldest professions, so dudes been banging whores since there was ” money “. It’s just that imo, on a blog about intersexual dynamics, it doesn’t really compute as far as understanding women. And personally, as I’ve said, I happen to think it’s mostly weak. If I find myself banging a woman for money, something has weakened me somehow. If I pay her thousands of dollars, somebody needs to shoot me, twice in the chest and once in the head. But that’s me. I wouldn’t try to end prostitution though. In fact,… Read more »
@Zen I wasn’t moralizing. I am amoral or libertarian on hookers. Personal decision. Do what works for you. I’m aware hookers do kinky stuff that man couldn’t get from relationship. Also aware that men with social options like charlie sheen might prefer hookers. To each their own. What sounds weak as all fuck is when men who bang hookers come on manosphere blogs and beg for validation from other men that they aren’t failed men because they bang hookers. Why the fuck do you need to explain your behavior to other men if you bang hookers? Stop groveling for approval… Read more »
Lol. Not my relationship experience.
@Fact Interesting. I make an off the cuff reference to hookers in my first comment (which is about 6 paragraphs in length) to illustrate a point about how you can never tell if raw-dogging really equates to desirability and that gets read as me making a manifesto about my choices in a forum of randos… Really? Alright… next time i’ll avoid trigger words Again, let me re-iterate the point: it’s about biological mechanics, hypergamy and sexual strategies enabled by said mechanics and social conditions. I mean if anything, the charitable interpretation should have been a positive one because it suggests… Read more »
“Don’t know why that’s the case. Maybe cuz I’m Beta Bux”
Probably Madonna/Whore as well, judging from your other limited views. Pretty typical.
@KFG: ‘As an RTS Game’. Hadn’t thought of that possibility: ‘Women: The Game’ by Red Pill Productions. Sounds good to me, whatever we can do to get men to see reality! @Palmasaily: ‘For mathematical purposes AF and BB are separate. AF compete within A and BB compete within B’ I view them more on a spectrum, like AF + BB <= 1, as you up the alpha you reduce the beta. Which made me realize that I overlooked an entirely different dimension of the optimization algorithm. In my comment above I was focusing on the process a woman goes through… Read more »
@J
“It’s over” ?
It never began, if you ask me. And this new phase is in continuity with before.
@SpoonMan I think it becomes easier to deal with it without emotion (i.e. women are not the enemy, it’s just their nature; you wouldn’t lament the fact that you should never stand between a bear and her cub, you just deal with it and don’t do it) Yeah. Just… figure what sort of joy you can derive from interaction with a biological algorithm (biorithm, I would say) devoid of self-consciousness. Any idea of emotional fulfilment turns into a vain hope — nothing lile intimacy, connection, can be “real” if the other party has no self-awareness. you even said “leave emotions… Read more »
Not a bad read SpoonMan.
@palmasailor Never said rawdogging was a good thing but sometimes stuff happens in the heat of the moment At any rate—and as I mentioned— the comment was really meant to be ironic. Rollo recently tweeted “condoms are beta”—-and yet here I am a self proclaimed beta engaged in raw action @sentient Your sound bites are hilarious. Let’s see: “limited views”, Madonna whore, “you don’t need to know”. What are you? Some wanna be guru? Who is the one enforcing distinctions like alpha-beta, Madonna-whore, etc…? If anything, I’m playing around with these distinctions to show that they are really false dichotomies… Read more »
Zendude
Says
“here I am a self proclaimed beta ”
Then says
“You can therefore dispense with the alpha beta terminology ”
Ummm. K.
@palm when i drew up the scenario of the 40 year old dude with the LTR in need of an itch, I was referring to myself and people like me (i’m obviously not unique) 1) i’ve done the game thing starting way back in ~2007 when the “game” was published. i’ve seen it progress from an approach based on process/tool/technique (i.e. mystery method process) to an approach premised on maximizing physical attributes and spamming (e.g. work to be your physical best + get good style + day game volume/tinder—see Good Looking Loser). There are of course other approaches but I… Read more »
“You can therefore dispense with the alpha beta terminology ”
Call them Chad and Fred if it makes you happy.
” . . . if your good looking enough . . .”
Most men judge the way a woman assesses looks by the way a man assesses looks, but they do not do so in the same manner. Hence my maxim:
A man can best judge the looks of a woman while she is sleeping.
A woman can best judge the looks of a man while he is chopping wood.
Zendude
“–Effort-Reward: if you check out the stats posted by Tom Torero, Krauser, GLL, Janka—-and these guys represent the segment of the industry marketing “honesty”—you’ll see at best something around 5 lays:100 approaches”
So you have guys with demonstrably little game posting results that suggest game has a low ROI.
Ummm. K.
Where natural game “wins” because it’s easier to execute and racks up massive losses… Lol
Where is the proficient game guy who rejects it? It wasn’t Yareally… It ain’t WIA.
Just more lazy BS…
@palm One more thing and this is circling back to Seth This whole Rollo thing > what’s in this site is grounded in stuff discovered in a high level by the pioneers of Evo Psych (David Buss) and their mass publishing popularizers The genius of Rollo is his radicalization of it–making it relevance to his contemporaries–plus exceptional Rhetoric (i.e. Marketing/Ad Copying). I mean he does have a Marketing background For example, you won’t find the whole Alpha-Beta dichotomy in David Buss, etc… They focused on more salient stuff like Resources and Physical Attributes. But from a marketing perspective, the Alpha-Beta… Read more »
Zendude Are the guys you mentioned re: 100 ” approaches ” = 5 lays, are they talking about snl’s/ same day lays, or just in general? 100 aproaches break out to 20 a day, not counting 2 days of the week. So if your out there and understand Game ( big ” G” ), you’ll have sexual encounters with 5 chicks a week, 20 a month, and so on.😁 Sure, to me it’s odd to look at that as an investment, because I like talking to women because I genuinely like women a lot. If you’re out there consistently chatting… Read more »
@blax
“But idk about that whole ” investment ” mindset, and I’m 100% against the idea that men have to dress, earn, lift – to attract women”.
So if a guy looks like the guys above and keeps getting instantly rejected upon approaching the girls he wants. He shouldn’t invest in himself by working out/fixing his diet and dressing better like the men below them, to get over that initial hurdle?
@palma
no. closed this Brazilian last night.
https://imgur.com/a/SSr639Q
Only place I’m going “out” to right now is to get myself a coffee 😉
J
I’m 100% against a man earning, dressing or lifting to get women’s attention.
Clear enough, right?
Rejection isn’t a thing A guy shouldn’t be a fat fuck, not for the women but for himself FIRST. Always him FIRST. Same with everything else.
Not in her frame. Ever.
This, evidently, is very very hard to grasp/understand.
Blax, Alot of guys in the redpill look at getting women/women as an investment, it’s pushed indirectly as the metric/ROI for your money investment in courses, conferences, books, time, etc. The most valuable asset in my life is time hence I don’t spend it chasing women for the most part, to each his own though. Men must work and constantly improve themselves, the game never ends that much is true. However, the guys pointing out the massive amount of time being spent on women/getting women is a red flag, ideally they should be coming to you if the life you… Read more »
Become a badass to keep yourself safe.
Women will arrive to keep themselves safe.
Chop wood to keep yourself warm.
Women will arrive to keep themselves warm.
The women will call this attraction to safety and warmth “looks.”
“A guy shouldn’t be a fat fuck”
Why? just because?
Andy Reid, one of the men above, is the coach for one of the teams favored to win the super bowl this year. Don’t think the guy gives a single fuck that he’s a fat piece of shit (“hey coach Reid you shouldn’t be fat!”). All he cares about is winning championships….but like if he wasn’t married and wanted go out and pull hot 21 year olds at Marquee he’d have a rough time lol. Competing with guys who are looksmaxxed.
Andy Reid is 61 years old, 6’3″ , and looks like he’s going about 280 or so. I’ve seen him upclose, and yeah, he should drop about 10 or 100 pounds for health reasons. If he wasn’t married, he’d still be able to pull a young hottie because nature of women ( understand this ). Maybe not a stable of 22 year olds, but a couple ( a stable of 22 year olds sounds terrible to me 😂). Why? Leader of men. Directing the top level athletes on the field. Andy Reid the Wal-Mart cashier would have a much tougher… Read more »
Kfg and foxguy –
+100.
I suspect Andy Reid has figured out there are hot girls in places besides Marquee…
https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-73258.html
good stuff
A lot of guys are going hard at Roosh, perhaps they should look in the mirror first. It’s pretty clear Roosh has some issues he needs to deal with stemming most likely from his childhood, he may also be a 1.5 generation immigrant which can fuck you up, seen it before. I don’t know if the religious thing is true on his part, but I will say that I don’t believe the guy to be fundamentally dishonest, confused for sure. You can’t be out banging sluts and promoting that while at the same time claiming to be for patriarchy/men/responsible women/leading,… Read more »
@Palmasailor, 10-4, I suspect that’s his problem, he is too insightful and at the core honest, he finds a movement/position he likes jumps onboard and then finds the holes and searches for something new, he is unable to lie to himself over the long term(sucks). He needs to look deeply inside himself and from that forge something new via a lot of work(pain and suffering). It’s possible but it’s going to take a lot of work from him, I wish him the best of luck, I do believe a lot of the answers we seek can be found via our… Read more »