
A comment from a woman on enotalone.com:
I am 31 years old, and not looking for anyone, but I have a lot of guy friends/acquaintances my age and the trend I see is a bit disheartening. There’s about 8 different ones that I know who are between 29-32 and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD.
I just don’t get it. There are plenty of women closer to their ages and single, but yet they all go for the young women. I feel kind of sad for women entering the dating market, at least where I’m from because it seems women my age have no hope in competing with these younger, perkier women.
Just a rant I suppose. I don’t have anything against younger women of course, but I can’t help but feel a bit unnerved by the trend I see here.
This is an overt observation of what women understand from a very early age – women’s sexual marketability declines with age, while men’s (should) increases as they age. This woman’s concerns should come as no shock to any Red Pill aware man. It’s the clarion call of a woman who’s aging out of the SMP and on the tail end of her Epiphany Phase.
All women have conditions (prerequisites) for men in order for them to become intimate (sexual) with them; he’s got to be good looking, he’s got to be financially stable (surplus resources), he’s got to have some status, respectability, ambition, be confident, he has to be the initiator, he’s has to be decisive, he has to make an emotional connection with her, he’s got have ‘provider’ potential,..etc., etc. And the list goes on and on for any individual woman and according to her ability (i.e. looks) to demand each condition. Each of these personal conditions for intimacy is set in a priority order depending on her ability to demand them and this demand is mediated by her age relative to her attractiveness to men.
It’s no secret that a woman’s sexual marketability declines as she ages and men’s increases as he ages. As a woman ages she progressively loses her ability to physically attract a mate (his one condition for intimacy), thus her conditions and their priority order shift accordingly because she is forced to compete with younger, more attractive women for the same pool of eligible men.
These men tend to be the ones best able to provide for her long term security and any resulting offspring. Thus, well established men (with status, money, hopefully good looks, etc.) in their early 30’s are the prime targets and the more they exemplify her conditions for intimacy, in their existing priority order, the more suitable he becomes for that intimacy and the harder she will compete with other women to achieve his long term commitment.
Pop-psychology would have us believe that women in their late 30’s to early 40’s are in their sexual prime. This may serve to increase the self-esteem of women finding themselves unable to command the male attention they did in their youth, but nothing could be further from the truth. While pre-menopausal women do in fact experience a spike in their testosterone levels and a resulting sex drive increase prior to the last of their eggs dropping, it is women between the ages of 18 and 26 that are in fact in their prime fertility stages. Women’s bodies in this age range are far better prepared for the rigors of pregnancy. At no other phase in her life is she more sexually active and most capable of commanding the attentions of the best male meeting her conditional criteria and in their most strict order. However these conditions are still mediated by her physical attractiveness – thus, if she’s fat her conditions (and their priority) will be adjusted accordingly – but she is nonetheless at her personal prime in this phase.
Unsurprisingly we see in most cultures older males striving for the attentions of the younger and more attractive females, but in western culture he becomes vilified and shamed for this – or at least that’s what western feminized women would like to be the case. The most common complaint women in their mid-thirties bemoan is that “There’s no good men” or they can’t understand why men just can’t “grow up” and find them more attractive than the young women they used to be themselves.
Increasingly, ‘careerist women’ desiring to finally start a family at age 35 find that men – particularly the ones that meet their conditions – in their age range (33-38) are not interested in women (to say nothing of ‘careerist women’) of their own age range. They’re interested in the 22 year olds who wouldn’t give them the time of day when they didn’t have the status (or maturity) that they’ve just discovered they now have. And of course the 35 year old career woman was one of these 22 year old girls, only 13 years prior, who was doing precisely the same thing the 22 year old girls are doing today.
But that doesn’t stop 30 something women from complaining about how men their age are ‘infantile’ for wanting to breed with ‘little girls’, rather than mature, intelligent, respectable career women such as themselves. They are incapable of conceiving why men ‘wont live up to their responsibilities’ and commit to a lifetime with them. They write article after article about how men are in fact threatened by their ‘successfulness’ or their ‘status’, when the simple fact remains that his breeding choices are dictated by one single condition – she’s got to be hot. Unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. The mid-thirties woman is (with a few notable exceptions) simply not as attractive as younger women.
So as an unspoken reaction to this predicament we get to see the popularity of the idea that “You can be 40 and still ‘have it'” among women. “Those men and their fragile egos just don’t know what they’re missing. How dare they be aroused by, and date younger more attractive women, we’ll show them”, they’d have them believe and pander to this dynamic while encouraging the fallacy that ‘men ought to be ashamed of their sexual impulse.
And finally we encounter the 40+ woman looking for what she couldn’t get in her 30s. Her priorities and conditions for intimacy have been altered radically now. At 40, the career woman has abandoned the idea of long term commitment; she may make up some sort of internalized blame for men not accepting her, but the truth comes that time has or is running out.
Perhaps she’s divorced, perhaps she’s a single mother, but at 40+ the importance becomes sex as empowerment for her. She still wants to know she’s ‘still got it’ and since none of the men of the age she’d like to be in an LTR with are biting she’ll be more than happy to get with a 22 year old ‘hunk’. They’re easy pickin’s since none of the girls their own age are interested in them.
They’re virile, young, dumb and full of cum. That’ll show those immature older men who don’t know how to commit! She’ll beat ’em at their own game. “Look at what I’ve got! A hot guy (relative, actually) who knows how to pleasure an older woman”; again shaming and insinuating older men’s sexual performance isn’t up to ‘women’s standards’. All conditions for intimacy and the priority orders she had before are out the window with the exception of physical attractiveness now, which, interestingly enough, has been a man’s only condition since he hit puberty. She’s come full circle, only now she makes an effort to enhance her appearance in the gym, with plastic surgery, Botox, breast augmentation, anything that will increase the attraction for young guys.
And of course the young guys are all too happy to ‘fill that hole’ (pun intended) since the effort required to get after it with the 40+ is practically nil and the rejection ratio is far lower. In addition most 22 year old guys know an LTR is more or less out of the question; they may be a booty call for her, but that’s an ideal situation for him, sex on demand with no expectation of any form of security for her. They like to make up reasonings like “she’s more experienced in bed” or “we’re both in our sexual primes”, but this just serves to justify him being a booty call, as if he’d have a problem with that.
The real irony of the whole situation is that 40+ woman is now doing exactly what she mercilessly criticized these ‘immature’, problematic 30-40 something men for doing. However, we don’t see any articles telling women to grow up, or to do the right thing or how infantile they are for sexually desiring younger men. On the contrary, they’re applauded for ‘bucking the system’ and embracing their sexual natures (as if they were formerly repressed) and “You go girl!” using isolated celebrity examples like Demi Moore fucking Ashton Kutcher as a role model.
The SMP After Marriage
For a long while I’ve been content to let bloggers like Athol Kay address sexual dynamics post-marriage (or LTR). I don’t think it’s any real secret that Married Man Sex Life has been more than compromised by a feminine-correct influence and the discussion is now directed by women’s imperatives there. This has been the forum’s state for some time now. So as such, I feel it’s kind of incumbent upon me to open myself up to addressing Red Pill issues within marriage (or LTRs) for the foreseeable future. This is just an avenue I’ll be opening up here, not a particular focus, don’t worry.
The following was a comment from YaReally in last week’s thread. I thought this more or less summed up the disconnect he believes exists between Old Married Guys (OMGs) and Young Single Guys (YSGs) who both have enough Red Pill awareness to want to employ it in their marriages as well as the plates they’re spinning as a PUA:
Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn’t come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we’re happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that’s awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives’ pics in the “post your idea of a 10” threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it’s simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.
This is an interesting paradox for OMGs, but I think it’s also not accounting for how sexual priorities and Frame shifts as a couple matures. The most glaring shift is of course maturing men’s SMV comparative to their wives’ will almost always be an order of magnitude above that of their wives’. As I laid out in Preventive Medicine, at this stage of maturity the task for wives becomes one of keeping that husband in the dark about his real SMV status; the concern being his sexual disinterest in her and him coming to a realization of his SMV and he leaves her for ‘younger, hotter, tighter’. Whether this is an actual threat is often inconsequential – unless that guy is so thoroughly Beta and ridiculous he’ll overtly acknowledge it – what occurs at this phase of a woman’s maturity is either a passive form of Dread or a feeling of regret for not having better optimized Hypergamy for herself so late in life.
Most men (i.e. Blue Pill Betas) never make this connection and blunder through their peak SMV years with a wife whose late-life competition anxiety sounds like nagging most of the time, or else it’s a possessive Frame grab with the latent purpose of keeping him focused on “her needs” rather than coming to understand he’s in the best position to capitalize on his SMV in his lifetime. This is actually part of the Blue Pill, feminine-correct plan for maintaining an optimal Hypergamy (or at least the impression of it) for women.
I’ve mentioned countless times on this blog that men’s peak SMV years are generally around the age of 34-38 depending upon how well he’s established himself in a variety of ways that contribute to it. As Red Pill awareness grows I (hopefully) expect more men will be able to capitalize on their moment of clarity as well as use this peak moment to enjoy and choose what’s best for themselves and their futures with regards to women. When men reach this peak it is generally a point at which women are also at their most necessitous (i.e. the Epiphany Phase). This simple matter of logistics also contributes to that man’s peak SMV in the form of making his commitment a valued commodity – presuming he’s built himself into that peak in the years prior to it.
My hope would be that men simply forestall any and all monogamous commitment until this phase, but for the men who find themselves in this peak phase while married, it is the most opportune time in which you can push the envelope with your wife from a Red Pill perspective. One grave error I think Athol Kay has made is in his “mindful attraction plan” – a feminized, feminine-correct watering down of his previous version’s attraction plan – his emphasis is to not go too overt or exaggerate a husbands SMV or make a Red Pill Alpha impression so threatening that it causes dread in his wife. I would argue that this is precisely what he needs to inculcate in his wife, and particularly if, up until this phase, she’s firmly dictated the Frame of their relationship since marriage.
I should add that this advice isn’t meant as some form of punishment or a big ‘get even’ with a man’s wife, but rather, a man pressing his SMV advantage at this point, to the point of instilling dread, will form a more solid attachment with his dominant Frame being the primary one – which is something his wife has likely craved for their marriage since the outset.
What YaReally (probably inadvertently) is revealing here is that women of lower SMV are far easier to attract and keep attracted than high (peak) SMV women. As women age that SMV advantage decreases, but the majority of men – and particularly married Beta men – still believe that their older wives and lower SMV women require the same or more attention to maintain that attraction.
Feminine-primary social conventions build this into a man’s Blue Pill conditioning so he believes that a marriage “always requires a lot of work” before and after he’s been married. This is why Athol’s Blue Pill advice of not overdoing the Alpha is so in error; it proceeds from the same sentiment that women need security during the part of a man’s life where he’s at his SMV peak and she’s at her most necessitous. A man’s “Burden of Performance” is then distorted by the Feminine Imperative to be defined as how well he will can quell his wife’s insecurities about him being in the best SMV status of his life.
Pop culture likes to call this effect “wife goggles”, but that’s a euphemism for how feminine-primary social conventions have conditioned men to feel a need to pander to their wife’s insecurity. In doing so they self-defeat any positive effect that this natural dread would benefit him and his relationship with his wife. If a man makes a conscious choice to limit himself in the phase of his life where he can best capitalize on his peak SMV this lifts the burden of a woman being the focus of him having to do so to make her feel secure.
And all of this has been about married men; feminine-primary social conventions have a whole set of social dictates intended to get a single man in this phase of life to willfully limit his own options. This is why we get shaming tactics and presumptions of ego-centrism for men in this demographic. This is why they’re called commit-o-phobes; because the hope is that these men will feel some measure of inappropriateness about their natural sexual impulses and choose an older women as a choice of mate. A woman who, again, is at her most necessitous and insecure about her future in the SMP or her long term prospectives.

Yeah everyone’s talking past each other because everyone still is not making distinctions between ‘are you beta’ (relating to mindset) and ‘is this specific action beta (even if the person performing it is overall alpha).
Which brings us to a pertinent non-provisioner example who is the antithesis of Ghengis……
” Also I understood from the start that we were discussing sexual strategies (AF/BB). Thats why electricity, crimes, apples, career choices are irrelevant. Even though alpha beta is used for almost everything, I assumed we were talking sexual strategy where its distinguishable.” No. the (new) drumbeat is Provisioning is beta. Always and in all circumstances. Nobody’s ” butthurt ” at all, just countering an absolute put forth that is demonstrably inaccurate. Just answer the question without obfuscation and casting suspicions on the pain thresholds of men’s butts. Simple. I’ll stop talking now and await your answer to the question at… Read more »
@MrT
Right. *Rolleyes*
Non of us can pick up on the sub-communication. Right?
Guys talking among other guys. Shit gets said.
It is not like the different factions are “right”. But give me a break on the Alpha AMOGing.
The amount of shit slung at the OMG’s is disingenuous, starting out with Rollo quoting YaReally as the OMG’s trying to keep their 70 y.o. wives happy. I call B.S. on that shit.
Nihilism all the way down there. Idealism and pragmatism all the way up here.
@Scribb
The hvren dude gets into beta traits and provisioning in the second and third parts of the series.
https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-2/
https://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-3-the-formula/
I should stress that I don’t think this is a perfect model; overall there are better ones, including RM ones. But seeing things from another perspective has a way of revealing another facet of the underlying reality.
If you Google “alpha wolf,” you are returned hits about wolves.
If you Google “alpha bear” you are returned hits about a mobile game.
Because in evo-psych there are no alpha bears.
“EVERY SINGLE ONE IS DATING A 21-23 YEAR OLD”
You know why? Because the others are invisible: https://therationalmale.com/2015/02/24/the-invisibles/
@ Forge “Yeah everyone’s talking past each other because everyone still is not making distinctions between ‘are you beta’ (relating to mindset) and ‘is this specific action beta (even if the person performing it is overall alpha).” You are my favorite person ..over the last few hours for giving me that link!!! Lol. Not to start anything ( trying to take scrib’s advice…really I am..) but there’s always a reason that the ” talking past ” get started. Guys dig in hard. Discussion ceases. Asking about mindset has gone unanswered. I understand the distinctions and nuance. My question to discern… Read more »
OK, I think I get Rollo’s objection to Scray a bit better now. If I’m getting this right (@Rollo feel free to correct), the point isn’t that you don’t need some sort of comfort and provisioning within an LTR. And that comfort and provisioning doesn’t give the tingles, sure, it’s not the AF side of things. The distinction Rollo is trying to make is different from that. It’s that, with the right frame and mindset, the action of provisioning has a very different function than it does with a ‘beta’ mindset. Rather than coming from a place of ‘let me… Read more »
I might also add that the “provisioning is Beta” drumbeat is pretty loud on the MGTOW forums too.
Just sayin’
“Nobody’s ” butthurt ” at all, just countering an absolute put forth that is demonstrably inaccurate.” Of course not. “You guys are Butt-hurt by one mentioning beta” is a Strawman argument. No one is butt-hurt by accusations that provisioning is a problem. It is not a factor. For those who don’t actually think twice about providing and don’t factor it into our non-blue pill non 100%beta, less than 100% alpha sexual strategy. Sexual strategy is one thing. Living a life with real power, being congruent and being Sentient’s DPA is another. A comprehensive plan (rather than a sniper sexual plan)… Read more »
@Blax
“But, you see, this is still just down to definitions again. Scray is using A/B to define specific behaviors divorced of all external context or value judgement. Rollo is using A/B as a way of illustrating different mindsets which will alter the tone of all actions taken within it – whether alpha or beta on the face.” Scray sure is. Nothing wrong with that. For Him. The dichotomy is fine if you want to keep PUA and LTR strategies dichotomous. Divorced from external content or value judgment if fine if that is what you want. Others actually live in a… Read more »
@all REGARDING SEXUAL STRATEGIES: AN ACTION THAT SATISFIES THE BETA BUCKS PART OF WOMENS HYPERGAMY = BETA ACTION. AN ACTION THAT SATISFIES THE ALPHA FUCKS PART OF WOMENS HYPERGAMY = ALPHA ACTION Just a premise I and scray (i think) use when discussing this. @blax ” Also I understood from the start that we were discussing sexual strategies (AF/BB). Thats why electricity, crimes, apples, career choices are irrelevant. Even though alpha beta is used for almost everything, I assumed we were talking sexual strategy where its distinguishable.” “No” scray started this shit in this manner so I was anyway “Nobody’s… Read more »
Rollo ” If provisioning is inherently Beta, a pLTR arrangement is inherently Beta as well?” Ya said from the start, his goal was to outline the relationship that maximizes your attractiveness but that there were unavoidable unattractive (read: beta) behaviors (having a kid limits your ability to walk away, if the goal is to raise it). A 100% alpha harambe dick swinging psychopath wouldn’t have a primary, let alone a wife, so your question about provisioning for wife and kids…yea beta. Forge “Yeah everyone’s talking past each other because everyone still is not making distinctions between ‘are you beta’ (relating… Read more »
@SJF
Theres the rub. Scray started this discussion (i think). Regarding sexual strategies.
Thats not to say everyone cannot discuss whatever he wants, just note that when responding to scray/me.
The reason there are no alpha bears is because bears are not social animals. The species practices a ONS sexual strategy. Males get the bang then wander (or are driven) off.
“The dichotomy is fine if you want to keep PUA and LTR strategies dichotomous.”
You use both sides whether you want short term or LTR.
Welcome to the real world Neo
http://trauma.kajabi.com/fe/83637-safety-emdr?r=y
Alright, a quick anecdote relating to the OP before I pack it for the night. I was hanging with the ‘rents yesterday evening and walked into a conversation…well, more a bitch-fest. My mother was talking about a lady from church – always a good sign lol. So the church they go to is very traditional. Suits for men, pants forbidden for women and head covering arbitrary, etc. This girl had once been mildly rebellious against these norms, she was one of the ‘cool ones’ who didn’t make her entire life about following minutiae about rules and judging others for not… Read more »
@Othergrain
I phrased it poorly. Some people are carefully making those distinctions. Others aren’t. Others don’t seem to grok them in the first place.
Scray begins with the assumption of certain axioms. Even if he states those axioms overtly as premises, accepting them is not required by default. And that is why people are talking past each other. For example (from Mr. T): ” I don’t think mindset is relevant. We’re talking action, not motive.” It is perfectly acceptable to respond with, “OK, we can take that premise and construct a model around it, but . . . I don’t think the premise is valid.” When building abstract models analytically, such as in mathematics, premises begin with “IF . . .” But we are… Read more »
@kfg
that kinda implies that alpha/beta distinctions will only be relevant in a social context, not a merely sexual one. Hence using the dichotomy in a purely sexual context will introduce distortions to the model. Which I imagine is your point.
(re: bears, though your last comment expands on the context)
Identify
http://wp.me/p4tvpM-1NyK
@kfg
You have a habit of adressing me and quoting other people. Should I get upset?
@Mr. T:
If you think I’m hitting on you and you don’t think I’m cute, yeah, probably.
@Forge: ” Hence using the dichotomy in a purely sexual context will introduce distortions to the model.”
There ya go.
@kfg
Better get that beta action goin and get me a drink.
@KFG
http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2014/01/praxeology-truth-of-game.html
“The most common use of the term is in connection with the Austrian School of Economics . . .”
and a founding premise of the Austrian School of Economics is that motives matter.
A friend of a friend; a good looking guy in his late 20’s got hit on by a mid to late 40’s cougar at a nightclub.
She was trying to punch far above her weight division
His response to her ….”Come back and see me when you are twenty years younger.”
kfg
Males get the bang then wander (or are driven) off.
Oh, so bears are libertarians?
And even they think the party is a joke.
@kfg
Should have used terminology instead of premise in my post.
Provisioning is a beta tell. If there is a hint or implication that part of why she is with you is that you somehow pay to make the companionship/sex possible, you are beta with/to her. If she is paying you to fuck her then you are terribly alpha with/to that one. There is the neutral ground where each brings exactly the same amount of resources. Sex is not a provision either way.
Men always provide for women they deem to have a higher sexual market value than themselves. She will qualify his ability and willingness to buy things for her.
We’re all providers at some stage.
That’s the price of playing the game.
@Mr. T walawala seems upset for example. Even though I think it is because he thinks he was insulted but w/e. Huh? Not at all. I’ve been going through a lot of my own soul searching to find some sense of the Red Pill in action. The whole “provisioning” argument got me thinking. I’ve had a number of interesting situations arise lately and seen how some friends of mine deal with their own. I have to take the idea of “paying” on a case by case basis and determine: “Am I doing this because I HAVE to?” or because I… Read more »
I get it. But a couple of things on my mind. 1) When you say “western culture” do you speak generally? I have found it to be a lot “worse” in USA than in Europe, having spent much of the last 10 years here. Women treated me much, much better in Europe than here. 100% of the times I have been punched has been by USA women. 100% of the worst insults I have had hurled at me, the worst flakes and the general shocking behavior has been in USA. 2) This blog and the entire Hypergamy theory appears to… Read more »
I have found it to be a lot “worse” in USA than in Europe, having spent much of the last 10 years here. This is generally true, still, although Europe differs as between regions as well in terms of the inter-sexual relations. The UK is closer to conditions in the US, whereas Eastern and Southern Europe are different. Parts of Latin America are more like conditions in Southern Europe as well. In general, however, as compared to the “rest of the world” women in the West, whether Europe or North America, share more in common — again, when compared to… Read more »
“And even they think the party is a joke.”
lol! 🙂
My husband is the only man I ever let pay for a date. He’s also the only “alpha” (by my definition) I’ve ever dated. I liked being “kept” by him. I currently like being owned by him.
@Novaseeker – I agree with your premise; I just feel that there is an overly predominant tone on this blog of “Women are going to screw you over and it’s not their fault, they cannot help it because biology – and if you disagree in any way then that’s just your Blue Pill conditioning talking.” I’m of the view that the gender politics in USA are screwed and that such tone may be influenced by USA “bad experiences”. Not that I even know where the authors are based, despite having read a good number of the posts. I think the… Read more »
@LEX, read more.
https://therationalmale.com/2014/07/08/game-and-circumstance/
https://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/
https://therationalmale.com/2015/05/25/changing-your-programming/
The disconnect for me on the A/B topic discusion is steming from an oldpoint of view. The extreme black and white view point speaks loudly of a time when the pimp was the alpha and the jimmy john was the beta the woman was simply being used one for money the other for sex. Note this AF/BB extreme satisfying her hypergamy seems to be dubious.?? At the other end of the extreme is sexless androgeny.Some where in between these two extremes remains a healthy balance.This healthy balance in todays age of confusion is becoming the exception rather than the rule.… Read more »
Side note re the SMV and aging, I can’t think of a better example of hormones driving and aging woman into nuttery than Judgybitch currently.
I won’t link, but she’s going the way of (she who cannot be named). But even worse. After shaming her husband and calling him a pussy (in different words), following with a post on “watching her dance like a whore” (the actual words), today she brings a sponsored relationship advertisement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjWYbcbpiWA
provision or possession? If you can’t fathom the latter… well then misunderstanding is understandable…
I think we should not forget the extra SMV factors when judging the men´s behaviour. It is very well that you have an SMV advantage over your wife when you are forty. On the other hand, capitalising on that advantage might not be such a good idea since it might very well endanger other very important aspects of your life. By that time you may as well have children you are fond of or, say, a million dollars you are fond of as well. The SMV and the legal leverage exist independently of each other and they tend to strengthen… Read more »
While were at the motives, I dont know what scrays were (probably preventing guys become victims of their rationalizations) but for me its only explaining the terminology. To optimize communication. @SJF “Different tribes shouldn’t dictate the conditions for other tribes.” Now youre being ridiculous. Who is dictating what? Do you feel your personal liberties are threatened just because we put different words to meanings? But go on, and then wonder why people are making fun of you. Its not even like its some arbitrary: “Hmm, I think Ill put this word to this meaning. Seems fine.” Its HYPERGAMY that decides.… Read more »
@Chump No More
“If Alpha is a mindset and not a demographic, then Beta must be equally so.
Provisioning is neither Alpha nor Beta, it’s an action or behavior… but mindset does drive the intent and the tone..”
And we have a winner!
Next topic…
@Anon: Don´t know if it´s age, I think judgybitch is just at the stage of the fight learning curve when new skills come easy and she thinks she´s invincible. I laughed my ass off at the “my husband is not good at being a man” thing as I imagined the surprise which would show on her face if she just once saw her husband really pushed to violence. She might quickly find out he´s much better at being a man than her supertrained self. As my friend once said: kravmaga-schravmaga, them tiny arms break so easy. I suppose that if… Read more »
@Anonymous REeader “I’m sure there are men in LTR’s / marriages who lurk here who just are not all that attracted to their women anymore. Getting betaized, having her turn into a perpetually shit testing harpy… What should the hypothetical married man do when his wife broke his wife-goggles?” He balls up and dumps her sorry ass. It’s not that hard to do. Did this after 28 years. “But there are men who don’t / can’t / won’t do that. Maybe it’s religious or philosophical limits, or the man knows what divorce does to offspring even when they are in… Read more »
Bugger…no woman who respects her husband would have ever said what she said. I’ll tell you what has happened and it’s as clear as day. She has a crush on the martial arts instructor she is spending five hours per day five days a week with (the “good at being a man” guy) and collaborating on a book with.
@disgruntled
“Next topic…”
No, this is the winner.
In all seriousness, I give it two more pages…
Some of her audience has caught on, but most probably haven’t (I don’t keep up with the comments I stopped reading her when I started having to sign on the Facebook or something to comment…that’s not for me). The reason they haven’t is because they’d already “bought” what she has been selling. Once a person is sold and has a time/emotional investment they are very reluctant to back out. That’s just the way people are wired (sales people use this to a great deal of effectiveness…even when you know they’re selling you and even when you know the tactic and… Read more »
i guess I’ve taken the advice to “flip the script” to such a point that women are regularly provisioning me. dinners, drinks, clothes, guns, electronics and even a couple tattoos. i like it.
now, what do these ladies all have in common? all over 30. they know they’re running out of options lol
just lol. i know this is a potential bait and switch (ask me how i know) but since the RP I’ll take the advantage:
they can keep bribing me for dick while i still work on the young ones.
@Scray
“@Rollo
Yes it boils down to if you felt like it.”
The problem with that statement is that it ignores the ‘mindset’ aspect of the provisioning transaction. “Feel like it” lumps both types of provisioning into one bucket.
I don’t know how a discussion on how different actions ping hypergamy in different ways ended up talking about the economy of Austria (😉 jokes, guys) but I agree with MrT, especially: Just seems more intuitive to base the dichotomy on hypergamy. Basing the dichotomy on motives introduces distortions to the sexual [hypergamy] context. Even if we ARE talking about alpha and beta wrt society at large, you can be a boardroom alpha and be pussywhipped at home. Sure, when analytically looking at a market, motives are important. But what do we know about women? That they don’t think logically… Read more »
“There are no alpha bears because all bears are alpha.”
By that measure, so are fruit flies.
Bugger…no woman who respects her husband would have ever said what she said. I’ll tell you what has happened and it’s as clear as day. She has a crush on the martial arts instructor she is spending five hours per day five days a week with (the “good at being a man” guy) and collaborating on a book with. Pretty much. It also is a classic setup at this stage/age, however, that her husband is failing at terribly. I have seen this dynamic play out in more than a couple of marriages. What happens is that one spouse (often the… Read more »
“Alpha is not a demographic, it’s a mindset.” I’ve always had an issue with this statement, not because of the “alpha is not a demographic”, which I fully agree with, but the part that states “it is a mindset”. That part always bugged me because it suggests that actions themselves are neither alpha or beta. In my mind, it conflicts with what we know are alpha traits and that somehow they can be framed as beta depending on the mindset. Let’s take the action of buying her a drink. No matter your MPO, buying a woman a drink will not… Read more »
Good assessment, Novaseeker. “In fact, at this point, unless the husband radically changes what he is doing, it will inevitably lead there — and that is largely his fault for being clueless in terms of not seeing how his wife picking up a masculine skill that he lacks, and being taught this skill by other men who have that skill that he lacks, will lead her to see him as less of a man. That cluelessness is on him.” I’m not so certain he should’ve seen this coming. They probably keep entirely different hobbies. He doesn’t seem to be directly… Read more »
@Sentient – “If your guys are not going to do ANYTHING but bleed out… Well then they should just get into a comfortable position.”
Drops mic, walks from stage…
Damn. Cold truth but so to the point.
Kayos That’s my main issue with “anything you do can be alpha”. There are specific actions or traits that will not result in tingles no matter who is performing them. That is not to say there are no good reasons to buy a girl a drink, but that’s not going to be the reason she sees you as alpha. Strip down what you think is alpha and you will find three irreducible traits, across all demographics… Dynamic, Passionate and Authentic. Let’s take the action of buying her a drink. No matter your MPO, buying a woman a drink will not… Read more »
Look at it from this perspective: two guys buy a girl a drink, one is your average Beta the other guy is Owen Cook. Which guy buying the girl a drink comes across as DHV?
@ sentient
“Wrong… unless you aren’t ejaculating maybe?”
Heh.
Look at it from this perspective: two guys buy a girl a drink, one is your average Beta the other guy is Owen Cook. Which guy buying the girl a drink comes across as DHV? The tingle for the girl comes from the attention of THAT guy… not the price of the drink… “Bartender, the lady and I will have two McGuffins.” Mr Big in early SATC was the archetype Alpha Provider [yes the series turned him BB… no matter.. he was the initial “dream” Fantasy Man AF+BB package]… of course he was based on a much older archetype –… Read more »
Scray’s point is that provisioning is beta not that beta is bad. Lots of men get into marriages not knowing this and think that provisioning is masculine behavior that women respond to (acting as a father in family dynamics). It isn’t true.
probably better to use the terms:
comfort vs. attraction
RE: Judgy Bitch, it appears she’s finally acknowledged that the MRM are equalists who’ve always embraced feminists to fight their fight for them. Does AVfM still endorse her or did Elam disown her like he did Christina Hoff-Summers?
Is Scray using the statement “provisioning is beta” pejoratively? (a phrase that has negative connotations or that is intended to disparage or belittle).
I can’t tell.
@ Forge “I probably just came across as having kind of weird views to them, I dunno. My mother (no insult) thinks mostly emotionally, but my father is quite rational. But rationality doesn’t seem to touch this for most men.” Testify, brother. There’s a ROK article which partly states, “Avoid women who love art…but suck at it.” Same-same with spirituality/religion. Women love the feeling of mysticism but generally stink at the nuts and bolts. Milady’s attempts at rote spirituality is one example. No matter how much throttle a woman applies to selfrighteous diversions, the governor kicks in. RP men are… Read more »
I don’t understand why this has to be so fucking hard. As an engineer, I subscribe to the KISS method, and very early in my RP awakening I wrestled with the concepts of Alpha & Beta and how I’m ‘supposed’ to behave.. My path to understanding was paying attention to the fact that there’s a reason why Rollo’s 1st Iron Rule is ‘Frame’. Alpha vs Beta isn’t in the ‘what’, it’s in the ‘why’ and the ‘how’, and ‘why’ and ‘how’ are governed/driven by mindset. Alpha = prioritizing myself, being my MPO, seeking approval only from myself, and behaving congruently… Read more »
A story of drinks and kryptonite… So post Halloween candy distribution at home, my WK buddy and I go to an upscale neighborhood bar/restaurant around 10PM to grab a drink. Place is dead, they are starting to close up. The bar has about 8 people around it, including two waitresses who are off tonight and hanging out. We know one of them well and she introduces the other… I did not recall seeing her before at first… The 35YO manager is there as well and she buys us a round. The “new” girl is introduced… smoking hot 23yo, long blond… Read more »
Seems appropriate enough:
http://www.theonion.com/article/housewife-charged-in-sex-for-security-scam-1773
“… but the kryptonite is strong…”
Abort! Abort! Abort!
@ SJF Initially I’d say that was the case. As the argument progressed, the definition magically softened. Again we are being confronted with the absolute/black and white paradigm. These things will always degrade into non discussion. I’m beginning to believe that it’s a function of not appreciating abstract ( to him/them ) thought. Just like in the past, it’s more about trying to win the argument rather than gain deeper understanding. Some tigers eat men. Not all tigers are man-eaters. Motive, intent and ability. Motives count. Pre meditated vs murder by degree vs manslaughter. Somebody was still killed. And in… Read more »
@Mr. T (I thought of assigning it to Othergrain for the joke): “There are no alpha bears because all bears are alpha.” There are no special snowflakes because all snowflakes are special. Alpha is a place in a social hierarchy. Bears are asocial. All male bears are MGTOW (and all male kakapo are PUA’s. “Males loosely gather in an arena and compete with each other to attract females. Females listen to the males as they display, or “lek”. They choose a mate based on the quality of his display; they are not pursued by the males in any overt way.… Read more »
@Scray – Re: ” like this why I’m lolling and giffing and shit because it just goes to show that — and there’s really no other way to say it at this point — there’s some serious foundation FIELD-based gaps in knowledge among the OMGs and that shit is starting to infect people who are trying to get out there and hustle.” Bullshit. That’s your closed and biased mind. Nothing of the sort is happening on this thread – only in your head. You want to have an impact here, right? Don’t be so goddamned dismissive so thoughtlessly. We are… Read more »
Left out this snippet…
At one point I was teasing her about being a skinny girl and had my hand about all the way around her upper arm where the tricep, bicep and shoulder meet…and had her pulled forward on me with her head down on my one shoulder while I was shaking her whole body with the other hand on her arm “see … this here… shake shake shake shake look at how skinny you are.. shake shake shake this is the spot…” and she was cackling her head off… BF kino.
@scray @rollo
@Rollo, thanks for that link.
@scray, am I correct to say that anybody using Mystery Method A1-S3 MUST be beta at least in the comfort stage, correct? So, although one may never be commit-beta, one must be hookup-beta at some stage. This isn’t an argument; I just like to think about the fine points of shit that fascinates me.
Aging
http://wp.me/p4tvpM-1Nyd
Speaking of Comfort stage, I don’t quite understand it or the difference between C1 and C2. I get the idea of building some comfort and I also get the idea of not moving backwards back into A stage, but I don’t get the subtleties of what is different within the different phases of Comfort nor why they should be in that order. A1 to A3 makes perfect sense, comparably.
@KFG: Isn’t Aladdin a case of Pauper Charming?
Thought the same,.
@IAS, this may help.
http://www.dallaspua.com/files/Mystery_Method_Cheat_Sheet.pdf
SJF “Is Scray using the statement “provisioning is beta” pejoratively? (a phrase that has negative connotations or that is intended to disparage or belittle).” How many times do we have to tell you, no? Alpha doesn’t not equal good, beta doesn’t not equal bad. Put it this way, I’d like to have a kid someday and PROVIDE for it (and probably the mother). That is a BETA thing to do and I’m cool with that lol. Love how you define words for us common folk btw, you know how hard it is to look up definitions these days… Rollo “Look… Read more »
I thought Alpha could be characterized by the response it elicits in women.
@IAS: Aladdin is a Hero’s Journey. It is a man’s romance, not a woman’s romance (which we now call an “adventure” since, over the past century, the FI has corrupted the meaning of “romance” to mere “love story’). Nonetheless, when he meets the princess he appears to be a pauper, but in fact turns out to be the most powerful and richest man in the world (get command of a genie and see if you aren’t). Because it is a Hero’s Journey, in the second act he is faced with defeat and despair, he will lose the princess by being… Read more »
Damn tablet crash. Lost a post. Now I’m getting the disconnect clearly. Motive, Intent and context. Some guys only accept the idea of ” provision” as a sexual strategy. They don’t see it as a byproduct ever. Give you shit so you’ll love and respect me more. Or just so I can get/hold your attention. Personally, I’ve never had that mindset. From what I gather, I only have a strategy consisting of having sex. This is only dependent on me and my ” ability “. All else is independent and stand alone. The disconnect is in the willful ignoring of… Read more »
@ sentient “WK buddy is getting agitated and he ends up leaving…” Here’s why most RP guys are alone. Most men are conditioned “Clockwork Orange” to avoid the semblance of RP and those who live it. BP is paralysis. I can’t count the times I’ve said in the last year “What? Your dick fall off?” re: an acquaintance having to make a RP decision. When out, people will freak with my monkeyshines. Essentially they ask: Why unilaterally break off the prechewed work convos and start at whatever hottie just peeked me? They ARE watching and can’t understand why I wouldn’t… Read more »
@Agent P: “I thought Alpha could be characterized by the response it elicits in women.” Yes, and it could also be characterized by the response it elicits in men. Both characterizations are correct, but partial. It is perfectly OK to examine the parts, but it is an error to ignore the whole. Your city’s water system is an engineering system, but it is part of a social system. People who live in a rural setting with a private wells have a different social structure. The parts are interrelated and all feed back into the other parts. So, what is the… Read more »
YaReally Sentient HABD Hank Walawala Forge and PUA Just a quick update/Lay Report – been making more of an effort to meet girls in the Small Town. It really is a desert but there is the odd oasis here even if I had to do it exhausted after 12-14 hours in the office. I actually matched a girl on Tinder (a fairly rare occurrence) and she wasn’t a bot and she turned up instead of flaking. Early 30s Asian chubby HB5.5-6 but she passed the boner test which is the main thing. Not that much to report really – it… Read more »
Question: What is an AMOG?
@scribblerg
Bullshit. That’s your closed and biased mind. Nothing of the sort is happening on this thread
here quote where I said these words I’m accused of saying, scribb, because of my “closed and biased” mind (hint: nowhere!):
” When you start advocating universal non-provider, non beta, all alpha strategies for all of Game”
“You talk all alpha, beta sucks,”
” Scray believes if you’re not alpha you’re beta”
and that’s just on THIS page. so yeah bro, it’s all in my head!
lol btw at equating “suffering foolishness gladly” with “social intelligence.”
@Blaximus Forge maybe this will help… scray is right in the sense that most men can’t pull off ‘alpha provider’ (not surprising when most men can’t pull off ‘alpha’ on any level…)… and it really gets harder as the girl gets hotter… bc at some level, just pinging ‘beta’ at any time with her is going to make it harder to get to ‘alpha’ with her… and also that AF and BB don’t ever go to together at the same time with the same girl… and that anything not ‘just sexing her up’ is ‘beta’… (that’s just based on the… Read more »
@all bottom line: you want a formulation that works in THE FIELD…go with STRICT BEHAVIORS and understand that it takes BOTH alpha and beta traits to succeed with the seduction. calibration is all about knowing where you’re at and when to dial up the beta or alpha. this “mental intent” stuff IMO is completely unworkable because now everything can be alpha, even behavior that literally defines the beta strategy (provisioning — yes, that is the behavior directly associated with beta, so to say that provisioning can be alpha is to utter something like ‘a round square can exist in normal… Read more »
So, by this definition then, how does a guy like Owen, go out into the field and intentionally displays Beta subcoms (to prove a point) or appearance, but through the use of Game, confidence and attitude is still able to present the perception that he is Alpha despite handicapping himself to appear Beta?
@SFC Ton
Always to much ego vested in the wrong kind of shit which leads to a bunch of squabbling over dumb shit leading me to think the need to rufte everything is probably a good sign someone’s frame needs shoring up.
having the potential to get shot at work tends to focus your attention on the important shit…lol…
good luck!
@Culum. Well done. Now you understand that all women are like that. It’s about game and timing. Logistics are crucial. I went to a bar with an hb7 I met on public transport. She was holding my hand and sitting close. Suddenly the waitress moved us to a table with a better view…but lousy for getting close. Killed the kino vibe. Keep ploughing. Two years ago I made a goal of only banging girls under 30 with some rare exceptions of 32. The first few were tinder and Okc rejects 5s and 6s. But it was like training wheels. I… Read more »
culum
Awesome stuff… Just keep doing this when you are in the big city… just like this… with the hotter girls all exactly the same… Boom. That’s it.
Now if you pay the $20 tab and use your Uber on your 1 hour pull ONS… well Scray might say you are beta… No matter…
The thing is Herstory… this girl here, you are the cool mysterious guy she got swept up by… they all love that.
Nice
@culum It really is a desert but there is the odd oasis here even if I had to do it exhausted after 12-14 hours in the office. mad props. you guys who make it happen despite there not being a whole lot of “target-rich” environments in your locale have some great dedication. I actually matched a girl on Tinder (a fairly rare occurrence) and she wasn’t a bot and she turned up instead of flaking. Early 30s Asian chubby HB5.5-6 but she passed the boner test which is the main thing. don’t look now, but you’re turning into a player… Read more »
EhIntellect Does this sound familiar? Honest question. Yes… which is why I never bother explaining RP stuff to guys except in self selecting forums and not get upset when they act BP IRL… Like my WK buddy, he is a great guy… very Alpha in many, many ways except his mindset… so he doesn’t get negs or getting girls aggravated etc. he usually steps in and apologizes for me, says “i’m an asshole” in a good natured way and tries to smooth stuff over… and he is NOT on board with any extra marital stuff at all… so I usually… Read more »
“The actual defined meaning of the word (at least to everyone but PUA’s) and the only one that makes actual sense.” I didn’t come up with the concept of using alpha and beta to define certain behaviours and women’s hypergamy. Lol after all your time in the manosphere this is now a problem for you? Everyone’s hung up in the terminology, bringing in whatever baggage they have associated with the words. let’s call it Cad Cock and Dad Dollars. There, now we’ve removed the fact that “alpha and beta are typically used when talking about social hierarchy” We’re arguing semantics,… Read more »
@rollo So, by this definition then, how does a guy like Owen, go out into the field and intentionally displays Beta subcoms (to prove a point) or appearance, but through the use of Game, confidence and attitude is still able to present the perception that he is Alpha despite handicapping himself to appear Beta? because, once again, everyone is a MIX of the two. so what is Owen doing? oh yeah. he’s rolling in with chodey subcomms AT FIRST. then he is CALIBRATING to get the bang. like I just said: calibration is all about knowing where you’re at and… Read more »
@AR But there are men who don’t / can’t / won’t do that. Maybe it’s religious or philosophical limits, or the man knows what divorce does to offspring even when they are in college, can’t afford the split, etc. What should those men do? I know some men who may be in this situation – can’t always tell from the outside, but…I’ve seen enough divorces over the years to have some clue when one is brewing in my social circle / extended family. Please note, this is a request for a discussion on a problem. It is not an invitation… Read more »
Othergrain
Everyone’s hung up in the terminology, bringing in whatever baggage they have associated with the words. let’s call it Cad Cock and Dad Dollars. There, now we’ve removed the fact that “alpha and beta are typically used when talking about social hierarchy”
When the entire case is based around the use of the undefined term “provisioning”, rather than the motives and actions around it, well what do you expect?
On Dad Dollars – when does that kick in? Is it $5, $20? $100?
” “but she passed the boner test [so whatever]” is a great thought process. once you start running through enough girls, that’s what it will boil down to. it’s just incidental to the larger ‘who gives a shit’ mindset that chicks are practically going to smell lol.”
“So, by this definition then, how does a guy like Owen, go out into the field and intentionally displays Beta subcoms (to prove a point) or appearance, but through the use of Game, confidence and attitude is still able to present the perception that he is Alpha despite handicapping himself to appear Beta?” Not sure I understand what you mean. Subcomms ARE actions: laser eyes is alpha, averting eyes is beta, etc. Take the video that’s constantly posted here, Owen and his doctor buddy. They are ACTING differently and therefore Owen gets away with saying the exact same shit beta… Read more »