A Teachable Moment


Teachable

While I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be educational for many new readers and what I tell him here might give even my regulars something new to think about.

This is the part I can’t get. I can look back and see how my beta behaviors made it impossible for my ex to respect and love me. I see those behaviors for what they are, but what I can’t do is internalize a competing value system, or a competing idealism, one which would allow me to judge myself in the way you’re judging yourself here. I still get stuck on “but she *should* have loved me for those behaviors,” even if I understand on an intellectual level why she didn’t. Even if I game myself into believing I feel differently about it, I know that on some level, I’m still going to be hoping that every girl I get involved with will prove to be capable of fulfilling that blue pill idealism. I fully expect to just fall back into oneitis and needy supplicating behaviors whenever I meet somebody. they just creep up on you without you even realizing it.

When I go into the intricacies of men’s innate sense of idealism this is what I mean. In a Blue Pill context there will always be an expectation of some possibility of an ideal state with a woman. The problem here isn’t men’s idealism, but rather the conditioning of it to expect an idealized Blue Pill outcome.

From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

The reality is that he’d been convinced of a Blue Pill social order founded on an Old Set of Books.

Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.

When I wrote Our Sisters’ Keeper I delved into the question of whether it could be expected of women to take responsibility for their own decisions, moral or otherwise. It generally comes down to a question of the seeming determinism that Hypergamy represents, and the deductive male-logic that, idealistically, expects women to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

In this respect Hypergamy doesn’t provide women with an excuse for the consequences, but the question of personal responsibility still doesn’t change the the underlying motivators, incentives and influences that Hypergamy exerts over women. The devil biology made me do it is the same alibi for Hypergamy as it is for men’s Selfish Gene.

While the software may change with the environment, our firmware and our hardware are still very much based in the evolution that benefitted our prehistoric predecessors. What measure you personally choose to judge yourself by is up to you, but again, the hardware and the firmware doesn’t change.

Under our modern social environment women have an unprecedented, virtually unilateral, stewardship of the gene pool. So much so in fact that women’s sexual selection strategy, Hypergamy and feminine social primacy are enforced by law and ensaturated into our social fabric. Whether this is for ‘the greater good’ or not all depends on who’s agenda defines what ‘good’ is.

For a very long time men had at least some measure of being able to direct the course that the gene pool was going. Men’s influence today is only as potent as women’s legislated sexual selection will allow them.

Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.

You’re presuming an egalitarian inspired similarity between men and women, and once again I’ll refer you to what I proposed above; you’re expecting software to override firmware and hardware. There are simply evidential and provable physical and cognitive differences between men and women.

I believe you’re correct – women are perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – however, this is not women’s firmware directive. It is not their initial mental point of origin.

True, women can learn to be empathetic, learn to be idealistic, and yes, learn to sublimate their innate solipsism, but their capacity to learn to override their firmware doesn’t erase the root conditions they must learn and practice to override.

And yes, we’ve reached a (western) social order that prioritizes and privileges women by setting the bar very low for them, thus making this ‘learning’, or even the desire to learn, to override their neural firmware not just a challenge, but entirely unexpected of them.

The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.

Dalrock has a series of posts about feminism that blames men for the failures of feminism. Feminism would work if not for uncooperative men; the same is true for Blue Pill men – Blue Pill idealism would work if not for uncooperative women. Both blame the failures of their goal-states on the other sex’s personal / social character flaws without consideration of the hindbrain, firmware that always rebels against those states.

How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.

What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.

Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?

There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies:

The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.

And thus we come back to the software vs. firmware conflict again.

This is what I mean when I say that women are “awful.” I don’t even have words for it. I don’t understand how I’m supposed to get past the contempt or sense of being wronged. You can tell yourself “stop being beta, bro. Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better, etc.,” or anything you like, it doesn’t change the reality or the fact that I recognize the reality. It’s like trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

The first step is giving up hope on the Blue Pill ideals you’ve been conditioned to believe are desirable, much less achievable. You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm.

The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.

Men’s idealistic nature can either be his greatest vulnerability or the source of his greatest strength and drive. It’s the context and conditioning of that idealism that makes it a danger or a boon. Stoicism is a practical measuring of that idealism based on self-knowledge and a truthful understanding of the state in which a man lives (Red Pill awareness).

Why are we so much more idealistic and imaginative in our youth? Because we have very little life experience with which to measure that idealism against. This is exactly why the Feminine Imperative must condition men from an early age – to direct that idealism to its own Blue Pill ends before a man learns enough about his reality to reject the imperatives’ ends in favor of his own.

And that is why undiluted, uncompromised Red Pill awareness being widely available is a threat to the Feminine Imperative.


733 responses to “A Teachable Moment

  • Jeremy

    I was going to reply to Divided Line, but I deleted it.

    I respect him and didn’t want to trample his comments with criticism because he is being sincere in “thinking aloud” in the comments here. I think he’s demonstrating a phase of red pill understanding that a lot of guys go through, myself included. Those thoughts that raced through my head going through those realizations still occasionally surface. When they do, the best outcome is usually a recognition of yet another aspect of my own life, and my own environment, that demonstrates simple truths of it that would otherwise be invisible to me had I not read the manosphere.

  • Jeremy

    Hah, I just now looked at the image for this post… lol, fantastic.

  • The Question

    “You need to accept that Blue Pill idealism will never be achieved in a Red Pill paradigm. The next step is to accept that you can create new hope and a new ideal founded on Red Pill awareness rather than succumbing to a nihilistic despair that’s based on the hope for Blue Pill falsehoods.”

    This was definitely one of the hardest things for me to do, and even now it can be a struggle to avoid slipping back into that mindset or fully embracing nihilism. It’s like trying to do weight lifting properly after years of improper technique; either you do it right and reach the desired PRs or you do it wrong and end up injuring yourself.

    The resistance by a lot of men to this notion of adopting the RP ideal isn’t that they think it’s wrong, but they’re angry that they’ve been thoroughly deceived for so long and wasted so much of their life on this planet based on false ideas and now have to completely start over. The thought is: Why should they, the victim, have to do all this work? It can be overwhelming to discover just how far down the rabbit hole goes.

    It’s like constructing a building based on blueprints someone else designed, only to discover that the foundation was improperly designed by the architect and as a result you have to tear it down and begin once more. Meanwhile, the architect refuses to admit their folly. Unfortunately, if the building is going to get done and stay up, it has to be rebuilt the right way.

  • Jeremy

    There is great power in the Golden Rule. I don’t mean that from the sentimentalist, “do unto others” perspective, but rather how available you make yourself to exploitation and manipulation when adopting that mindset. There is no position more vulnerable than an expectation of equal treatment from another for like treatment from yourself. It presumes a mutually shared acknowledgement of how that other would perceive treating you as they would themselves.

    From a historical/inter-cultural perspective… Many more than a few western (or eastern) human explorers died because they put too much into the golden rule… expecting that treating others how they expected to be treated would work out just fine.

  • nogoingback

    Damn. Talk about wanting to be reinserted into the matrix. I guess for some guys the realization is much more harsh considering where they’re coming from.

    For me personally, once it becomes instinctual to view things from a red pill lens, you never dream of going back. You relish the thought of everyday becoming 1% better and creating your own future.

    Also, P.S. Rollo, the copyright on your site at the bottom of the page says 2009-2013.

    Here’s an article for a simple script you can copy and paste to never have to worry about it again.
    http://www.wpbeginner.com/wp-tutorials/how-to-add-a-dynamic-copyright-date-in-wordpress-footer/

    Keep up the awesome work. It’s been invaluable to my journey.

  • Forge the Sky

    Well, seeing as I wrote a large reply to that comment 20 minutes before this was posted (Rollo’s reading my mind or some shit), I may as well re-post it here since discussion of all this will probably move. Apologies to those who saw it on the old thread, just scroll on by:

    @Divided Line

    Tremendous comment, I think it’s the best description I’ve seen of how a bluepill mindset ‘feels’ like from within once one is redpill aware.

    A lot of the things you’re describing I went through as well. Maybe I should have written more about them as I was going through them, but I just saw it as being my issue to solve at that point I guess. Or I was just afraid to seem doubtful.

    I don’t have a magic solution for you, but maybe I can pull out some of the thoughts you have and illustrate how my thinking changed about them over time.

    “Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. Whatever evo-psych explanation we can come with, it doesn’t provide them with an excuse. They’re not stewards of the gene pool, there is no greater good that is served by hypergamy. In a modern context it’s a liability, not an asset. At the limbic level they’re screening for traits that would have been advantageous 20,000 years ago, not in a modern industrial or post industrial society. Should I try to convince myself otherwise and judge myself according to my evolutionary fitness or something? It seems absurd.”

    Hmm, how can I put this. I get what you’re saying and how this is frustrating, like sure this system is outdated and doesn’t make sense any more. But when I’m gardening or something I don’t complain about how the weeds are getting in the way of my crops and it doesn’t make sense that they should grow there because I’ll just pull them up and they won’t reproduce anyways. I’m not going to just refuse to pull them up because what they’re doing doesn’t make sense. Why on earth should it make sense?

    You know what else doesn’t make sense? Men’s preference for young, fit women on birth control over and above an ugly 35yo who isn’t. Heck, men’s desire to have sex if they have a condom on doesn’t make sense either, if nature kept up it should just be this massive turnoff to put a condom on and we just wouldn’t want to have sex till it’s off.

    This isn’t women, it’s everything. If you’re turned on by a hot young thing you’re just as controlled by outdated biology as women are. But the way I see it, this isn’t a thing to be angry or frustrated about. It just means that things are often more complex and intricate and unpredictable than if everything just went according to the plan we had in our head. And I like observing and interacting with a world that constantly defies expectation and reveals different levels of complexity. So when women don’t act in a way that I think it would be convenient for them to act, I just think that’s cool now. It’s this whole other aspect to reality that I can explore.

    Honestly, I’ve not heard any guy who’s getting laid well talk like this. They can still realize how fucked up it is, they can be like ‘Yeah this is totally impractical I guess we’re just following our monkey brains lol’ and then just keep having fun with it, but they don’t ponder it overmuch. So there’s that too.

    “Women aren’t dogs, they’re human beings. They’re perfectly capable of self awareness and of awareness of others. In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism – anybody who can think at an abstract level should be. Women are unaware of themselves because the bar is so low for them, because they are profoundly privileged and everything is handed to them on a silver platter, not because they’re incapable of treating men in a way that would have made the blue pill equality ideal possible.

    It really just boils down to a profound form of inferiority, their unwillingness to empathize or give a shit. They don’t care because they don’t have to. It’s a fundamental hollowness at the core of their character.”

    Dude, if hot girls just threw themselves at you each time you went into public ever since you were like 13 and you had like 1/4 the libido you do I doubt you’d turn out any different.

    “How do you just accept that and blame yourself for being beta? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, I’m saying I want to be able to do the same thing. I just can’t access that mindset.”

    It’s good that you want it, you won’t possibly get it otherwise. I really think it boils down to just interacting with women in ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ fashions for a while as practice, until you begin to see the way they react viscerally to each attitude. I mean, I don’t force it or anything, it’s just some girls I acted beta with bc I liked them but wasn’t after them, and other girls turned me on so I started acting more alpha with them as I got better at this.

    Once you start to do that, you develop an intuitive empathy for how girls react the way they do. It’s just like, ‘oh, I’m being beta, of course she reacts like this,’ in the same way that if someone tells you a joke when you’re in a bad mood you might just glare at them for annoying you, but when you’re in a social mood you laugh. And if you tease someone when they’re in the wrong mood, you quickly recognize it and aren’t like ‘WHY?! WHY do they react with such HOSTILITY to my WELL-MEANT RIBBING?! Just yesterday I saw him LAUGH when that other dude did the EXACT SAME THING!!” Instead you’re just like ‘whoop, hit them with that at the wrong time.’ Lol, same thing happens with girls. Oh, I just wasn’t registering as alpha to her so of course she shot down my attempt to sexualize things.

    “What was so terrible about the blue pill equalism really? We all regard it with contempt, but we’re just being pragmatic, since it’s unworkable, a cruel lie we were all fed from birth. I get all that. But in and of itself, what was so terrible about it? Had it been possible – which it is not – would the idea been worthy of such contempt? I can’t convince myself of that.”

    I mean, primarily we denounce it because it doesn’t work. I don’t think it isn’t an appealing-sounding thing. Just, why bother thinking about it. Like those pretty geocentric diagrams of the solar system. People who are still unplugging denigrate it and treat it with contempt, since they’re still having to distance themselves from it and it sounds really fucking appealing to rationalize keeping it around some days.

    “All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way. I can look back on it and see it as beta, and if I regard women like robots running an evo-psych script, I can see that it would have been impossible for her to love and respect me, I guess. So is that what it boils down to? Thinking about women as if they are children or dumb dogs and accepting it?”

    Yes, this selfless aspect of yourself, liking it, and fearing losing it – I really empathize with that. That was the most difficult part of unplugging for me. I was terrified that I’d end up being a ‘bad’ person, that if I let that go it wouldn’t be replaced by a different sort of goodness. And I got the largest part of my joy and meaning in life in being someone who naturally did for others. I didn’t even really expect tit-for-tat, though there was definitely a subconscious contract running there that I was unaware of – some expectation of a degree of appreciation and reciprocal good treatment.

    I think the only reason I really changed my perspective on that was born of pure necessity – I was miserable, in fierce emotional pain, I had no way out in the value system I was holding. So the only option was to change. At some point when I was breaking off things with the girl I was seeing at the time, I told her (was still at some level trying to hold on, there was no good reason I should have confided this really lol) that the old me, kind, gentle, patient, thinks of others first – that I liked that guy a lot. He was pleasant. But I wanted more from life, I wanted to do more. And so he had to die. And I knew he was gonna fight for his life like a motherfucker, but I haven’t lost an internal battle in my whole life and I was gonna win.

    She was sad to hear that. She was afraid I was going to become a ‘jerk.’ And you know? For a while I kind of did. It takes you a while to get your footing again. But I promise you, if the kindness and care and compassion you have now are anything more than a narcissitic facade – and I don’t get that feeling from you at all – you will find your footing again, and you will find a more effective way to express your desire to do good.

    Or do you think Rollo puts all this work in for us for his health?

    I think what you find after a while is that you still have the same impulse to compassion that you did before. But you’ll begin to realize that the way you expressed it before was actually quite servile – it presumed that the other person deserved, and would benefit from, your kindness. That sort of ‘niceness’ is as shallow as the sort of person who gives a dog a treat whenever it asks for one, and often when it doesn’t. Little burst of good emotions, and in the long run the dog gets fat and spoiled. You haven’t done it any good at all.

    But I don’t want to muddy the waters with dog analogies given your language above, lol. I’m not comparing women to dogs here, this is true of your kindness to anyone. You think you’re being a good person when you’re really just being co-dependant. You think you’re being righteous when you’re just being nice. And you know,

    It takes a paradigm shift to see things from a level where your previous actions were simplistic or corrupted. You can’t solve a problem from within the same mindset that created it.

    I’m just beginning to learn, but with that paradigm shift I see niceness and reciprocity as only one tool in the toolbox of ‘goodness to other people.’ Negative emotions feature prominently as well.

    “My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.”

    This is why I urge you to go out and try all sorts of things you haven’t done before so you can start to find out what sorts of things you might regard as improvements to yourself. You can start small; I just started by going to clubs sometimes (never did that before), dancing at weddings and shit when I’d always been too embarrassed to, and taking random road trips to little towns and national parks and just trekking or wandering and seeing who/what I found.

    Like I said yesterday, you don’t know how you’re actually going to react to a lot of things cause it’s like you’re in a huge dark room and you won’t let yourself walk in certain directions so you don’t know what’s there.

    Also,

    Look at the angst Sun Wukong and myself and Scribb often have after having some unpleasant experience shoved in our face in the field. That’s the thing that changes you. You learn things about your ego and your preferences and your preconceptions that you could never have found out just by thinking about it. And it’s the pain that motivates you to change your perspective on things. You never will otherwise.

    Pain begets strength. Pain begets wisdom. Just read Tolkien, he understood that profoundly.

    [….]

    “Maybe this is what would work: What if I just separate my life into two spheres.

    [….]

    If I did it this way, maybe it would help me sort out which desires and aspirations are actually my own and which are really just a subconscious attempt to qualify for women. I could establish a sense of self apart from how I believe they perceive me and from there make myself the mental point of origin and cultivate frame.”

    Yes! Very good. You start there. This gives you practice with women, and it also allows you to figure your own self out independantly of them – so your ego isn’t all bound up in what they think of you and your mission and performance. They are separate.

    “If I did it that way, then maybe I could truly internalize making women an addition to my life, rather than the focus of it.”

    And eventually you’ll learn (I suspect, I’m still developing the basic skills but I can see the beginnings of this) how and in what fashion you can actually care about women again. Not as a mother, not as a co-dependant ego prop, but for what and who they are. Different, not to be relied upon as a rock under your feet, but more like the wind that brings the cool, the heat, the rain and the clouds at diverse and unlooked-for times.

  • Forge the Sky

    @Jeremy

    “I respect him and didn’t want to trample his comments with criticism because he is being sincere in “thinking aloud” in the comments here. I think he’s demonstrating a phase of red pill understanding that a lot of guys go through, myself included. Those thoughts that raced through my head going through those realizations still occasionally surface. When they do, the best outcome is usually a recognition of yet another aspect of my own life, and my own environment, that demonstrates simple truths of it that would otherwise be invisible to me had I not read the manosphere.”

    Yeah, I hope the main thrust of my reply is ‘I’ve thought a lot of these same things, here’s where I ended up, hope that saves you a few trips down blind alleys’ rather than criticism.

  • Jeremy

    @Forge

    This of course brings up the question… well, when should I have learned these things, and ideally who should have taught me?

    For that answer, I keep thinking, “Father”… however I don’t think even a dad can truly “instruct” a kid from first principles on the harsh realities of dealing with women as an adult male. I think dad’s best hope is that his son “strawberries his knees” good and early, so he can do what Rollo did in this post.

  • jorxster

    In my day to day interactions with colleagues, I realize that the vast majority of men are not ready for the Red Pill, or even if they are, completely unaware of it.

    * I’d like to see methods and ideas of testing the topic of red pill with other men who could be receptive to it. Or to tell when they aren’t, and not to waste time on them. *

    For example, I met an old colleague for lunch recently who had recently moved in with his girlfriend. I told him a little bit about my journey, from breaking up with my ex, discovering red pill, etc.

    “Oh, red pill.” He gave an obscure impression that he was not in the slightest bit interested– and I got the sense that someone had shared it with him in a poor manner previously. A mind that could have once been open to new ideas was now closed (or maybe it was, already, judging by the fact he had just moved in with a girl).

    And in that moment, it felt like he had dismissed what was a large part of my success, disinterested.

    So, I’d like to see someone in the community step up and give pointers on how to test red pill subjects with our fellow men who are still plugged in.

  • Andy

    “In theory they’re perfectly capable of higher order idealism”

    I wonder what people that have gone through gender reassignment would say about that. I’m assuming that idealism is probably some artifact of testosterone. I’ve heard some fucked up stuff about women taking testosterone like increased understanding of physics, increased interest in sci-fi. Shit like that. Here’s a couple links.

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-caldwell/5-things-i-learned-taking_b_8917498.html

  • IAS

    That comment by Divided Line is masterful and Rollo did well to address it.

    To Divided Line: I think I get where you are coming from. I may still be there. The Golden Rule has its limits – like a pacifist that eventually must use violence if someone tries to use violence in him, you need to Tit-for-Tat against certain undesirable behavior (if you don’t know Game Theory, in the mathematical sense, look up iterated prisoner’s dilemma; there are other Game Theory scenarios and concepts that are useful for a Red Pill man).

    What is helping me since my RP “awakening” in a new idealism sense is that I can clearly see that I can be a better man. Being even more Stoic than I was is a good example (I was already fairly Stoic but I’m more dedicated to it than ever before).

    You don’t need to go the “Dark Triad” route to be effective in attracting the hunter-gatherer female libido.

    In fact, it is probably a Crisis of Motive if you do something just to appeal to the female libido
    https://therationalmale.com/2013/07/18/crisis-of-motive/

    But you can strive to be a better man and still appeal to the female libido, and you probably will be even happier than when you were relying too much on the Golden Rule.

  • GW

    I am glad you posted this Rollo as I missed DL’s candid and cogent explanation of the struggle that is common to many of us.
    Given I am one year into Red Pill and 14 years married with kids, I have been struggling with this fundamental issue myself with no safety net. Our relationship now often appears as a cyclical microcosm of what DL said.
    1. I establish dominance by attempting to be (depending on circumstances) some combination of indifferent, aloof, cold, selfish & assertive. Though hardly easy or natural, it tends to work.
    2. She is mostly submissive and agreeable for a period while I maintain frame without needing anything from her. I work on my goals while she supports me and our family.
    3. I (obviously imperfectly) attempt to reward her for behavior by being more available and attentive. I am trying to tune, this but I am sure I am slipping up because of my idealism is misdirected, because I feel myself becoming addicted to her behavior in #2.
    4. Sooner than later she challenges me on something I did that was “cold” or “mean” and I am caught off guard because of my idealism instead of maintaining frame per #1, above.

    I am working on all of these steps, but something seems to happen from #2 to #3 that is my weakness. I swear, when learn how to handle this better I will be able to sustain, without herculean emotional and intellectual effort anyways, a red pill idealistic relationship. In short, I need to re-wire myself from the emotional beta-male mindset (man up) and focus on improving my life for me. Those last two steps along with practice seem to be the key to success (at least my gaps to fill).

  • ChocDoc

    ” The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
    For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

    Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?

    The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.”

    Your Essay and the actual one of Illimitablemen should be read together.
    There are many things that i really have understood after i have read your books.

    I have understood clearly, especially in the past year, that in my life it’s all about me.
    You are right when you say, that our Idealism is our greatest vulnerability, but also our source of our greatest strength and drive.

    For this year, my goal will be to adjust my idealism that way, that i stay positive, full of energy and drive, but in the same time to be clever and skilled enough to close that idealism “Backdoor”.

    A very good old quote from a persian Poet named Rumi:
    “Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself !! ”

    In 2015 i made great progress to understand clearly what is going around in this society. I have read a lot from different sources.
    In 2016 i feel that iam ready to build myself a good and strong future.

    Cheers Rollo

  • Jeremy

    @jorxster

    So, I’d like to see someone in the community step up and give pointers on how to test red pill subjects with our fellow men who are still plugged in.

    With great care.

    Speaking as someone who was raised in a christian cult, I’m fully versed in the tremendous power of mental resistance to ideas once a mind has suspended critical thinking on a matter. Most wars are begun with significant amounts of human mental resistance to stepping down from a position that is truly ridiculous.

    There’s a great war series that’s now available on Netflix called “Diaries of the Great War.” I recommend it if you like that sort of thing. The first episode, is to my mind, the best. You get to see from the perspective of human journals, that world war 1 started literally because of a mental disease that was widespread at the time, they called it patriotism but what it really was was a reverence to their leaders and government. No one wanted war, but at the same time everyone wanted to demonstrate their patriotism, and they were all convinced that the war would end within months of it starting. What they got was one of the most horrific meat grinders in human history that had no end and ultimately spawned WW2.

    That is the power of minds that are made up, they will literally pull individuals by the millions to their deaths.

  • GW

    @ChocDoc,
    Which (of the many) essay from IllimitableMen are you referring to?
    Thanks in advance, GW

  • LeeLee

    This confuses me a little bit. There is a sadness for men that the Blue Pill is a lie? To me, the Blue Pill is awful, being treated like an equal is awful — it’s like.. having to be treated like a man even though I’m not, and calling that romance.

    I have this theory (actually it’s my husband’s theory but I like it) that the Blue Pill is a tribute not to romance or sexual intimacy but to overbearing mothers. From my view it actually spits in the face of intimacy to please the mother who demands worshipers assemble at the altar of the Strong Masculine Woman.

    Maybe my brain isn’t working well today..

  • GW

    @Jeremy, Agreed. We are all habituated to state rule, which is simply modern serfdom. Governments are responsible for over 95% of all atrocities in the world. The political class is the most pragmatic, ethically bankrupt group of people in society, yet they are worshiped as deities.

  • IAS

    @LeeLee: possibly the reason you can’t get the sadness about BP being a lie is that you don’t have the same burden of performance.

    The BP ideal isn’t just about being equal (which I think many BP men may not even believe in), but it contains parts about Men being appreciated for their efforts, which Rollo linked to in the post above:
    https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/14/appreciation/

  • Jeremy

    @LeeLee

    This confuses me a little bit. There is a sadness for men that the Blue Pill is a lie?

    Yes.

    The reason is because in blue-pill-idealism-land, a.k.a. “The Happiest Place On Earth”… women are not only *able* to easily empathize with men, but they outright choose to do so when a man has sacrificed for her.

    The truth that women, in fact, cannot empathize with men and probably wouldn’t default to do so even if they could is a sad cold reality to any man sufficiently invested in blue pill land. It says that everything a man does, the woman he wanted to share his life with wont ever fully appreciate it. It reveals a loneliness in the burden of performance that blue-pill men did not realize they were operating within.

  • ChocDoc

    @ GW

    Iam speaking from the ” Tuition From Tragedy – Ben’s Story ” essay from IllimitableMen.

    A well known yet often heared story.
    Idealism and Blue Pill….an explosive mixture !

  • GW

    @LeeLee,
    I think there is some muddling with the FI marketing and what men falsely believe they can achieve. For example, I never considered women like men, in spite of the social conditioning, and was repulsed by the notion that they should be. The (fallacious) ideal is that if a man commits with honestly, diligence and loyalty to a women he can expect those things in return.
    I partially agree with your husband’s theory, but it is only a partial explanation. With my prior blue-bill conditioning, I was still, on occasion, a contextual alpha, and played the part well (unconsciously because I was in my flow). I literally had one women come into a hotel room I was sharing with another guy and climb in bed naked with me while he was in the same room. Yet I was still wearing my blue-pill glasses that I should be loyal, monogamous (even when dating only), chivalrous, etc. with the (false) expectation that society (not a sentient being of course) would shower me with appreciation. This was not because I worshipped man-like women or my mother (who somewhat fits the description and was my single parent), but because not only her, but the bulk of our culture supports this fallacious (FI) illusion. I am healing my psyche from this BS fortunately, thanks to Rollo & other trailblazers, including many like-minded men here, who I will be eternally grateful to.

  • GW

    I forgot some juicy details above….that supports Rollo’s other claims (“They will find you”)
    The gal mentioned above was unexpected, uninvited, and had told the hotel staff that she was staying with me to obtain a key. The room was dark (though not so dark that my roommate didn’t see what was happening) and I was sound asleep when she perpetrated all of this.

  • Jeremy

    @GW

    Stop, reverse the genders:

    I forgot some juicy details above….
    The guy I mentioned above was unexpected, uninvited, and had told the hotel staff that he was staying with me to obtain a key. The room was dark (though not so dark that my roommate didn’t see what was happening) and I was sound asleep when he perpetrated all of this.

    Naturally, I called the police, he’s now in prison serving 20.

  • GW

    Thanks ChocDoc

    @IAS Well put! It is sad when one finds one of the biggest assumptions one made about life, which one made many sacrifices and put in much effort, is fallacious and much of that effort and sacrifice will have no payback. Yeah, that hurts!!

  • GW

    @Jeremy Exactly, though she was surely a 7 (8 if not for a scar on forehead from childhood) and was, sort of, seeking consent. 🙂

  • IAS

    @Rollo and others: from the myriad BP “ideal” lies, which one causes you more sadness not to be true? In other words, if you could apply a “patch” to address one “bug/feature” of the female hardware/firmware, what would you patch?

    I’m guessing the “bug/feature” of solipsism that allows a woman to abandon a terminally ill husband and branch swing without even a blemish on their conscience. I personally find that pretty harsh. I get why it was selected for during evolution, but still.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/03/war-brides/

  • newlyaloof

    @leelee, haha. Your comment, as good intentioned as it may be, reads like a woman trying to be a nurturing mother to us unpluggers. Please wait in the lobby.

    Why? Cause this isn’t about you, but your words are:

    “This confuses [[me]] a little bit. There is a sadness for men that the Blue Pill is a lie? To [[me]], the Blue Pill is awful, being treated like an equal is awful — it’s like.. having to be treated like a man even though [[I’m]] not, and calling that romance.

    [[I]] have this theory (actually it’s [[my]] husband’s theory but [[I]] like it) that the Blue Pill is a tribute not to romance or sexual intimacy but to overbearing mothers. From [[my]] view it actually spits in the face of intimacy to please the mother who demands worshipers assemble at the altar of the Strong Masculine Woman.

    Maybe [[my]] brain isn’t working well today..” lol.

    @Divided, never again let anybody get you butthurt – traffic, job stress, bills, debts, women, nothing. Make that promise and stop your brain from letting yourself get butthurt when you feel wronged. Sure, you have to practice this buffer, but it’s a wonderful buffer to have. My home life is much better this past month and a half. I’m actually happy again (read some of my past comments on the Open Relationships post.

  • Pinelero

    I’m adapting a dual idealism… one for society at large and one for my interpersonal relationships with women. Women are off the pedestal, but that doesn’t mean that my idealism for other aspects of life must be burned down with it. I respect hypergamy it has sustained the species to this day, but I will not be victim to it.

  • ChocDoc

    @ IAS

    Quiet many patches are needed, cause there are a lot of bugs to fix.

    Here’s my ranking of the female Bugs/Feature that bothers me most.

    1) opportunistic love
    2) Strong solipsism to justify every bull****

    many more of course…but these 2 bugs/features are really annoying.

  • Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy

    My journey was much like Forge’s or DL’s, though I luckily got to the finish line quicker. At the time all I could see was that things for me were starting to go horribly wrong and I didn’t know why, or how to fix, because I too thought I was “doing everything right” but it was all backfiring and the abyss loomed. While my progress has had its steps forward and occasionally back, at least I “got” that I was now seeing how the world really worked, and I had better get used to it fast. Encounter, adapt, overcome.

    What we all need to remember is that the Blue Pill is a hivemind-spread cultural idea that spread airborne like Ebola in the mid-to-late 70’s and continues now: be a sensitive new age guy (SNAG), show your feminine side, show you’re nice and not like those awful sexist MCP’s and Someday You Will Be Loved. Maybe it was a reaction to Free Love and the soulless Swinging 70’s, maybe it emerged partly from second-wave feminism, maybe it was a mental whammajammer from the Bilderberg Group. Just about everyone bought into it, and they still do. And unhappiness abounds for both men and women, who don’t get what the Blue Pill promises. We’ve all bought into the lie, As often happens in history, when we see the lie for what it is, we don’t confront it, we blame ourselves because we didn’t do the Blue Pill Dance right. And keep colliding with the floor.

    It’s something like the “our leaders are perfect” patriotism, the blindly-obeyed mentality that started WW 1, as noted above in the Netflix show. No one can say who started it, it just spread. Sometimes all hell literally has to break loose for the big lie to be overthrown and the reset to happen.

  • Duderick Budrick

    Maybe another way of thinking of it, apols to anyone in the thread who already said it, haven’t read through all comments.

    While it’s useful to have a rational understanding of hypergamy and female behaviors, and the male behaviors that repel / draw women based on their hardwired responses, it’s not useful to try to apply principles of logic and justice to it. We can say it’s not fair that it is men (other than those who are naturally Alpha) who should suppress normal-feeling, responsible, “romantic” behaviors in order to avoid triggering a subconscious, hindbrain rejection response in women, and instead act in ways that go against our “better nature” or upbringing in order to trigger positive responses, while women just get to act the way their hormones tell them to.*

    I think it’s more useful to think of heterosexual men and women as being members of two groups that are eternally destined to have opposing interests (mutually exclusive mating strategies), but whose conflict and interaction is necessary and interesting and makes each group “more” than it would be without the other. There have been plenty of bitter sports rivalries (Steelers-Cowboys, Yankees-Red Sox, Lakers-Celtics, etc.) that really benefited both teams at the same time they were at each other’s throats. The Mystics couldn’t kill Skeksis without dying themselves. There was a “solution” to the Cold War – but with 30 years’ hindsight, by defeating the Soviet Union the United States also defeated itself: the USA and USSR were utterly ideologically opposed to each other but this conflict allowed these countries to dominate the world completely between themselves in a way that it seems no one country will ever be able to do. Had the Cold War “game” continued instead of ending, it probably would have benefited both the US and the USSR as long as they could keep the tension just short of all-out war. But I digress.

    *It’s not quite correct to say that in Battle of Mating Strategies, men are the conscious ones with perspective and women are lizard-brained automatons. Open Hypergamy refutes this – with feminism and the Internet, things are being said openly that were previously shared in women-only circles. It’s just that men and women are looking for sex in different ways, and in most cultures women have been conditioned to lie about their true desires. Men generally want sex with an attractive partner who’s open-minded but not slutty – in other words, sex with an aesthetic adrenaline rush. Women want sex with abandon, catharsis, heightened drama, exotic settings, a sense of the taboo – in other words sex with an emotional adrenaline rush. When men find their ideal sexual partner, they tend to want to parade her around for everyone to know. When a woman finds her ideal sexual partner, she may well only tell her sister and close girlfriends about him, or may just write about it in her diary or keep it to herself.

    And here’s something that’s unfair from the female perspective – there’s much more a man can “do” to make himself more attractive, and over a much longer period of time. Makeup, clothes, diet, workout and surgery can help a woman look more attractive, but a 23-year-old Kate Upton type can eat hamburgers and go without makeup and still upstage a 35-year-old woman who spends all day at the spa and the gym, whereas no 23-year-old yoga instructor can pull women like an attractive, experienced, rich, smooth 40-year-old man.

    The aggregate of male desires and the aggregate of female desires are irreconcilable, as are male and female biology, so while it’s useful and necessary to know the difference, it’s folly to try to find some kind of compromise or “third path.” The differences between men and women aren’t right or wrong, they just are. And stopping playing the Game really just means that you left the field.

  • LeeLee

    @IAS & @Jeremy — Okay, I think I get it. The sadness is that women not only aren’t the magical beings of virtue that the FI says we are, we’re truly deeply flawed in ways that are difficult for men to connect with or even believe?

  • kfg

    @Lee Lee:

    No. The sadness is that you don’t understand the sadness.

  • Shameful

    I went back and reread Sister’s Keeper and with what you say here it does sound like women have no real moral agency. That in theory they could but that we cannot expect it, akin to running across bigfoot in the forest. If they are so completely and totally controlled by their firmware can we expect anyrhing that ever deviates from that? Now clearly society judges men constantly for adhering to his firmware. Would not a more natural state be a man acrion in total compliance to that firmware, and what would that base state of man look like if played out en mass?

  • Jeremy

    @LeeLee

    Try not to think of it as a flaw, or else you’re comparing women to mans ideal female. “Blue Pill” only works because men are taught to idealize women in ways contrary enough to reality that it allows the men to accept their own subjugation. But in that fantasy, the men were promised something that is literally impossible, something they would otherwise never get from women, true appreciation for their sacrifice.

    Try to imagine yourself as a young boy. This is much easier said than done. You’ve got more energy than any adult around you, more energy than any female around you, and everything is interesting simply because you feel like you have enough energy to start fusion reactors. This all happens because your body is designed to gear up its metabolism for a day when it will need to handle significant sustained power output just to accomplish the things that life requires of you. What’s more, since your body can not bear new life, you realize in the back of your mind that your only legacy in life, the only way to make a mark on history and create some memory of yourself that lives on will be what you create with your own hands, your own energy. In the past this meant cutting down and moving logs to build homes, foretresses, etc, all with human muscle power.

    Now imagine that large amount of energy slowly finding direction as you mature, finding direction into dreams and ideas for your own future, things you’ll do, things you’ll build, things you’ll see. Now further imagine that blue pill nonsense got a hold of you early, and made you believe that all that energy that you sensed you would have for your life would actually be appreciated by some woman you meet in the future, that your sacrifice of your body and its energy over your lifetime would be rewarded because women understood this sacrifice instinctively.

    Now imagine after growing up believing all that, after investing in some woman and having children with her and supporting them all.. that someone tells you that women don’t understand your sacrifice. And furthermore even if they could easily understand that, their own perspective on their own lives is more important to them.

    Men and raw male energy is what turned the world from a place where we huddled in fear around our home campfires only feet away from large packs of predators at night, to a world where space colonization is our next logical step. That is where male energy takes us. To learn after sacrificing significant amounts of male energy that women don’t understand what the individual sacrifice of that effort towards making a family means to a man is, frankly, the toughest pill a man has to swallow. It’s too much, many men literally blow their own brains out upon realizing it.

  • Duderick Budrick

    In Divided Line’s comment, he (apols if I’m mischaracterizing) hates Red Pill at the same time he recognizes it works, or, more precisely, he hates that Red Pill is necessary in order to have a relationship with a woman where she respects you, making Red Pill a sort of necessary evil. And there’s some envy (and awe) of women and their sexuality being at once hypocritical and natural, the mountain that men can come to honestly and be rejected, or trick into coming to them and be rewarded.

    Before we envy women too much, think about what male sexuality has given us that it hasn’t given women: Agency. The ability to understand, adjust, play the game as subjects rather than as objects. How does a woman get a man? She makes her willingness known to him, and if she’s hot enough, he fucks her. If he enjoyed the fucking enough, or if there’s not another woman more attractive who wants to fuck him, he’ll come back for more. He might also stick around for food and other comforts. That’s why there’s no female Red Pill – a woman can strategize all she wants and it won’t make her any hotter or more desirable. What are all women’s magazines about? How to be hotter, and how to fuck better — and for women who’ve settled down, how to cook and otherwise make your home more comfortable, and how to manipulate your man. How boring.

    So yeah, while on the one hand, it’s unfair that in order to land the hyper-talented Tom Brady, who is not only a prime physical specimen but can do things with his body and mind–under intense physical and psychological stress–that maybe one in a million human beings can do, all Gisele Bundchen (a high-school dropout from rural Brazil) had to do was be really hot.

    On the other hand, that spells out how hopeless things look for the 99.9999% of women who aren’t so naturally hot that they get signed to a modeling contract while walking through the mall – no amount of hard work, education, talent, stick-to-itiveness and so on can make a woman attractive as much as just being born with hot genes can. And while Tom Brady’s certainly a good-looking guy, he’d still be able to marry a model if he was uglier, and Gisele wouldn’t have given a second look to Tom Brady the good-looking auto mechanic.

    Men have the power to change their sexual circumstances through doing and deciding and implementing, and as even Divided Line admits, Red Pill works. It works even for men who thought they weren’t attractive to women. There’s nothing in women’s toolbox that can change their sexual circumstances so easily or so radically.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsflgC7AmyCi3yx-_20rH5hOjkAfHwipEJc0S9aird8mStmniuFg

    It all starts somewhere
    Divided Line really wants to hold on tight though.

  • Forge the Sky

    There’s a lot of good stuff to respond to in the OP as well. Good article, Rollo. Basically you’re using this as a case study to stitch together a few different concepts you’ve elucidated before.

    The capacity for women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, but what this does is pit women’s innate dispositions against what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes, and then holds women personally responsible for not ‘learning’ to override their firmware.’

    [….]

    “Again, men’s idealistic root note wants some kind of cooperative Blue Pill harmony to exist in a mutually shared, mutually negotiated and mutually agreed upon state between men and women. Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men. The Feminine Imperative figured that out a hundred thousand years ago – men are the True Romantics, and that’s been their thumbscrew for millennia.

    This seems to imply that a circumstance wherein a bluepill reality is realized to the degree that women are capable and incentivized to participate in it fulfills many aspects of the masculine imperative. Or is ‘masculine imperative’ different from ‘what men think would be an ideal state for both sexes?’ I know that the FI is generally what women solipsistically believe is the optimal state both genders should devote themselves to, but perhaps that’s due to a solipsistic factor that men don’t possess?

    It’s confusing because we usually talk about how bluepill reality is the way that women maneuver men into adopting women’s imperatives as their own, rather than the other way around.

    “The fundamental differences between men and women (idealistic vs. opportunistic love concepts) virtually ensure that a conflict will occur when you pair this expectation of equal treatment and equal appreciation with the cardinal rule of sexual strategies….”

    Men’s predilection for idealism make them the logical candidates for this compromise or abandonment of their own imperatives, however, in doing so they fall prey to self-sacrifice in the hopes of mutual appreciation, earning relational equity and all while idealistically affirming for themselves their own righteousness of that sacrifice. The more you suffer the more it shows you really care, right?”

    Basically women’s innate pragmatism predisposes them to come out on top in any system where masculine dominance isn’t a material necessity….

    “The problem then becomes one of women fundamentally lacking the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate her own reality.”

    …but when the shoe is on the other foot men’s innate compassion/defense instinct towards women helps keep things from getting this out of hand.

    Then again, maybe not. Some societies are fairly cruel to women. Maybe a woman’s fundamental lack of capacity to understand our sacrifices is reflected in a different yet no less pertinent incapability to understand on our part.

  • Matt

    It angers me as well. I cannot love a woman how I planned on wanting to love her, thanks to the red pill. Instead, we must satisfy their feral selection requirements.

    By the way, I don’t think the selection of alpha cads is in anyway a bug of evolution as some have written. The possibility of societal destruction and rebuilding would always necessitate the hindbrain to maintain a supply of physical alphas in the gene pool. Your average computer science, narrow-framed programmer may appear to be the proper selection for our modern economy, yet the risk of a rebuild will always get alpha genes in demand.

  • nastynate

    @jorxster

    “So, I’d like to see someone in the community step up and give pointers on how to test red pill subjects with our fellow men who are still plugged in.”

    In my experience it’s almost impossible to approach the subject unless the man has recently gone through severe trauma that he has no prescription for. I’ve tried many, many times with family and friends to approach the subject directly, and have had little success. So many men are so heavily invested in the old set of books, they have to see their world burning before them before their minds are open to the full truth. I wasn’t immune either. It took a very traumatic relationship and breakup to wake me up as well. The best way to share the life with other men is to live it, and live it well. And when they see your success, tell them.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    @nastymate
    They also get just enough feedback from women to keep trying that you can’t really get them to see anything you may have to talk about.
    You’ll probably get dismissed as having trouble meeting or getting along with women.

  • Craig

    “The more you suffer, the more it shows your really care, right? Yehehea.”

  • Craig

    belay my last. it’s this one:

  • Duderick Budrick

    @Jeremy

    When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it? You might say “thanks honey, I appreciate it,” but most likely you think it’s a throwaway BS flip-the-script guilt-trip argument (or possibly even a waste of time and money and an excuse for hedonism, rather than a sacrifice); in Western society there are many reasons for a woman to want to look good other than to please her man. You might think that, just the opposite, if she was single she’d work on her looks even harder.

    Now, when a man says to a woman “I did this all for you,” referring to the personal sacrifices he made to provide for her and her children, and to build a career, be successful and provide for the future, she hears it in the same way – “what’s he saying, that without me to inspire him he’d be an unemployed loser? Nonsense, he’d have done the same thing if he were single, or more likely, he’d have supported some other woman and some other kids.” At worst, she hears it as him blaming his misery on her, and possibly it makes him sound less attractive because rather than being a go-getter predator dynamo, he’s a reluctant warrior who’d rather be on the couch and only play-acts at being a winner.

    Now think about the striving and hustling you do when you’re single – in a way you’re doing it for a woman, in the sense that you need to demonstrate certain value to be in the Game, just as a single woman tries to look good for a man. Can you blame either of them, once they’ve found each other, for suspecting that, to the extent their partner continues to do these things, they’re doing it not exclusively as a sacrifice for their partner?

  • Jeremy

    @Duderick Budrick

    When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it?

    Actually that is a pure manipulation, but you know this already I think. What is being done there is the woman is throwing things out that she should be doing anyway, for her own self-interest, and recharacterizing them as some kind of “grand sacrifice” for the betterment of the man in her life. The equivalent would be a man saying, “See honey, I lifted some weights, increased my max, see how much I’ve sacrificed for you?”

    Can you blame either of them, once they’ve found each other, for suspecting that, to the extent their partner continues to do these things, they’re doing it not exclusively as a sacrifice for their partner?

    There is a fundamental difference, however. A man’s energy to create over his lifetime is his only power to leave any lasting legacy of his own existence. The power to bring new life into the world is greater than this, and that power is reserved to the women. People carry more of their mothers DNA than the fathers, simply by where they gestate. The line of humanity is actually a line of mothers. The legacy of human existence is one of female sacrifice of their youthful beauty for new life, much like a flower that is beautiful only for a time, and then bears new seed.

    Male sacrifice is invisible to women. They literally cannot see it, because they cannot conceive of what it is like to be without a womb. They don’t know what it is like to be the one who cannot share in the chain of new human life. Men instead must sacrifice their own lives, minute by minute, for either his own ends or those who would seek to make him a slave. And since that’s all he has, there’s a huge difference between being a slave or a free man. Abusively manipulative women don’t realize that every nagging request, every insistence on extra effort from a man, every attempt to re-direct his energy for her ends, is little different from a man who keeps a woman in limbo bit-by-bit over her entire fertile years, never impregnating her, and leaving her barren.

    I’m not trying to paint a victimhood picture of men. I’m attempting to describe the sacrifice of men in terms that women might understand.

  • Jeremy

    @Duderick Budrick

    When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it?

    Actually that is a pure manipulation, but you know this already I think. What is being done there is the woman is throwing things out that she should be doing anyway, for her own self-interest, and recharacterizing them as some kind of “grand sacrifice” for the betterment of the man in her life. The equivalent would be a man saying, “See honey, I lifted some weights, increased my max, see how much I’ve sacrificed for you?”

    Can you blame either of them, once they’ve found each other, for suspecting that, to the extent their partner continues to do these things, they’re doing it not exclusively as a sacrifice for their partner?

    There is a fundamental difference, however. A man’s energy to create over his lifetime is his only power to leave any lasting legacy of his own existence. The power to bring new life into the world is greater than this, and that power is reserved to the women. People carry more of their mothers DNA than the fathers, simply by where they gestate. The line of humanity is actually a line of mothers. The legacy of human existence is one of female sacrifice of their youthful beauty for new life, much like a flower that is beautiful only for a time, and then bears new seed.

    Male sacrifice is invisible to women. They literally cannot see it, because they cannot conceive of what it is like to be without a womb. They don’t know what it is like to be the one who cannot share in the chain of new human life. Men must instead must sacrifice their own lives, minute by minute, for either his own ends or those who would seek to make him a slave. And since that’s all he has, there’s a huge difference between being a slave or a free man. Abusively manipulative women don’t realize that every nagging request, every insistence on extra effort from a man, every attempt to re-direct his energy for her ends, is little different from a man who keeps a woman in limbo bit-by-bit over her entire fertile years, never impregnating her, and leaving her barren.

  • Niko Choski (@nikochoski)

    @Duderick Budrick

    When your woman says to you “I go to the gym / buy nice clothes / do my hair and makeup / go to the spa / etc to look nice for you,” do you believe it?

    When a woman states something like that, try the opposite. Tell her I don’t like it when you do your make up. I don’t like it when you hit the gym. I want you as you are right now in the nude. Without make up, without you having to tone up for anything, just for me. This is how I like it.

    There is no way a woman does any of that shit for you alone; a woman does things that make her more attractive for herself and herself alone. A woman will do these things because she is competing with other women.

  • having a bad day

    @Divided Line

    i read your comment on the other thread…at first i thought you were actually a girl…lol…then, i thought you were trying to troll…then, i realized that i had been away from newbie red pill converts for so long that it kind of surprised me…i had forgotten what it’s like to be on the cusp of red pill acceptance…lol…so, i apologize for that…

    congratulations! on at least attempting to choke down the red pill. it’s not easy (in the same way that learning another language is not easy), but it’s definitely doable…and you are just about there…and you are certainly on the right path…

    every one of us goes through this phase…don’t beat yourself up, it’s not like you had a choice before of being blue pill…there is a reason ‘The Matrix” is the analogy the manosphere uses…

    i think the thing that helped me the most in accepting red pill ideas (or at least helped me deal with the anger…) was realizing that girls really CAN’T help themselves…AND AWALT…lol…it’s wired in on a subconscious level…in other words, it’s like color-blindness, girls can’t even see what they are doing/missing…

    like Rollo indicates, it’s wired in…that ‘s why i was going to ‘lol’ at your ‘girls aren’t like dogs’ comment…lol…bc they actually are…lol…and that evo-psych robot idea had some good merit too…lol…

    every one of the MGTOW (and a lot of red pillers, too) and certainly all of the angry ones, seem to have this idea that girls are consciously manipulating them… but it’s just not true…(that’s the same reason game can work btw…) it’s like getting angry at a pit bull that bites your hand while you’re holding out a nice, juicy steak…lol…

    this misunderstanding results in anger bc who wants to get screwed over?…but girls really ARE like dogs…lol…they operate on a hindbrain primacy…which leads to AF/BB sexual strategies…which this whole site explains…

    i just want to point out that it WILL take some time. even if you just accepted the all red pill truths are reality right now (if that was even possible)…it will STILL take time to adjust…that’s just the way we are wired…so, just keep at it and you’ll get there…

    @Rollo

    in general, i agree with most of what you wrote here about girls being ABLE to understand and adopt a blue pill ideology (on a bell curve, of course…) but i disagree with this:

    “The capacity fro women to realize that Blue Pill ideal is there, ”

    which pretty much invalidated the entire premise…

    i don’t believe that girls have the ability/capacity to hold BOTH a blue pill ideology wrt their ‘partner’ AND have an AUTHENTIC desire for sex with that SAME ‘partner’…bc that would involve negotiating desire…and that never works…they just can’t do it = AF/BB…

    i do agree that girls have the ability to hold that blue pill ideology wrt to society in general (that is after all feminism…lol), but that egalitarian value set doesn’t translate to ‘Beta Fux’…lol…which, i think would be a necessary component of any blue pill man’s ‘total package value set”…after all, who doesn’t want authentic desire?…

    i just wanted to hit this point, too:

    “Yes, Blue Pill equalism seems very pragmatic, that’s what makes subscribing to it so seductive, and potentially so damaging for idealistic men.”

    it is also very ‘easy’… i think that is part of why it’s so seductive…which is easier – being the ‘leader’ (who has responsibility alone…) or being the ‘equal’ (who shares responsibility)?…echoing above, what blue pill men want is equality WITH authentic desire, too…(which is what they think they are signing up for…)

    i noticed this point bc this is one i’m still working through…this was/is the hardest blue pill idea for me to give up/work through…technically, i’m rebelling against my burden of performance…lol…i’m having a hard time reconciling red pill totality with that idea…it’s tough…

    good luck!

  • Pete

    In essence a male who lacks self respect and confidence follows the path of martyrdom in order to appeal to women, in spite of history proving such sacrifice only adds to his lack of value.

  • kfg

    @Jeremy: “The power to bring new life into the world is greater than this, and that power is reserved to the women.”

    I’d like to see one, show me. No. Really. Sit one down in front of me and have her show me. I’ll wait.

    She’s likely to get upset by the affair, because she knows she can’t, but doesn’t want you to know she can’t. That knowledge robs her of her power.

    @Shameful: “Would not a more natural state be a man acrion in total compliance to that firmware, and what would that base state of man look like if played out en mass?”

    Like a fireteam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWbuCxriMb8

    Pay close attention at 55 seconds.

  • having a bad day

    @Matt

    “The possibility of societal destruction and rebuilding would always necessitate the hindbrain to maintain a supply of physical alphas in the gene pool.”

    YaReally will probably be along to correct you on this limiting belief (alpha’s are only physical studs = ‘just lift, bro…’), but the only thing a girl’s hindbrain really cares about is whether or not you know how to get her into bed/sex…bc then she gets a sexy son in 9 months…a ‘computer nerd’ with good game is perfectly capable of banging hard 10s…

    good luck!

  • kfg

    @Having a Bad Day:

  • rugby11

    In favor of my own.
    Thank you Rollo Tommassi

  • Lucien

    I agree with Divided Line. There is no particular glory in satisfying some girl’s primitive hindbrain.

    The problem I see with all this Red Pill absolutism is this. We constantly hear about the Feminine Imperative and how it dominates and control everything and has done so for 1,000 years. But that’s simply not true. For much, perhaps most, of human history it simply didn’t matter what girls liked or wanted. Nobody knew and nobody gave a damn. Only after the sexual revolution and liberated, consequence-free sex for women have we really had to deal with what women want, sexually speaking. Before that it was strictly controlled by social rules and the inevitability of pregnancy.

    Let’s say you were a smart, decently good looking but somewhat modest girl. Knowing that guys lost their minds over pornstars and bimbos, would you set out to turn yourself into one? That would be foolish. You would take some strategic steps to make sure you appealed to a man, but you would not make it the organizing principle of your life. At least, you shouldn’t.

  • Robert What?

    Men have always had to perform. That is nothing new. What is new (relatively speaking) is society’s removal of almost all the historic incentives for men to perform. Yet most plod on regardless hoping against hope. Society used to provide men certain benefits in acknowledgement of the enormous sacrifices of being a responsible husband, father, and community member.: respect, a certain amount of deference, property rights and male-only spaces. Those are all gone, but men are still expected to live up to historic responsibilities. I’m amazed any guys still get married.

  • rugby11

    @Lucien
    “Let’s say you were a smart, decently good looking but somewhat modest girl. Knowing that guys lost their minds over pornstars and bimbos, would you set out to turn yourself into one? That would be foolish. You would take some strategic steps to make sure you appealed to a man, but you would not make it the organizing principle of your life. At least, you shouldn’t.”

    Are culture has made that alone the way Romans treated gladiators. As pornstars thy where envied and admonished because they could do things the average male couldn’t. Yet they suffered and died at the expense of the masses. The best where able to stay alive mainly because they became a brand but I dot think any lasts more than 15 yrs or 300 stadium fights. The burden of performance here was at the pinocle of importance in being male.
    Perform or die… Thumb up or down.

  • kfg

    @Lucien: ” . . . it simply didn’t matter what girls liked or wanted.”

  • ShanksNes (@ShanksNes)

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/#comment-136402 @kfg. That’s the most succinct way to put it.

    @LeeLee : Men and women experience the world differently. Since the woman’s world view is solipsistic, it wouldn’t allow her to picture emotional states in third person the way men do. It would be like trying to walk north, when you’re standing on north pole – you just can’t do it.

    Here’s one analogy (don’t know if it will work). Imagine yourself in a mystical amazonian world filled with women, with the exception of one man – your husband. All women start at the same point and the same age, but their rates of aging are different. Both of you are happily married to each other and deeply in love with each other. You have a daughter together. But there’s a catch – nature dictates that your man’s affection is proportional to how youthful you are relative to your peers. His sex drive remains constant. All people are heterosexual. The world is much bigger than earth with a much smaller population. People rarely meet easily. Men are so rare that they occur once a generation.

    Imagine living in such a world. Your hubby is fucking a lot of women and has children with them. But he’s chosen to share his emotions and intimacy exclusively with you. He thinks only about you when he goes to work. He cares only about you.

    But as time passes, you become older. There are other women who look much older since they age faster or don’t take care of themselves. But now there are women who look younger, since they age slower. Now you are a redpill woman and you know the law of “hyperyouth”. You are terrified that you’ll loose him. So you start taking extra care of him. You take care of your skin and are meticulous in your make up. You put more into your cooking. You work out and read all about how to be crazy in bed. You massage his shoulders (hehe..). You cheer him up when he’s feeling a bit down. You know he’s a rational and decent person; Seeing how much effort you’re putting up for him, he’ll be able to “empathize” with you and make a “conscious choice” to be with you. You also try “gaming” him – tactics to keep him away from other girls.

    But you find that he’s spending more time with the other girls. Sure he fucks them, but now he’s talking about how jenny has the sweetest voice. You guys are cuddling and he says that unlike his “previous wife” stacy who’s was “exciting”, he loves the fact that you’re so “reliable and calm”. You’re having sex, and he remarks how you smell almost as good as debbie.

    He loves your daughter. But he often praises his “other” daughter daisy for being great at baseball. And his daughter “zoe” has taken up acting, and he often goes to her plays.

    How’d you feel knowing that as much as he genuinely cares about you, there’s no guarantee that he’s thinking about you when he’s with you? And that despite your “performance”, the degree of intimacy that you’re entitled to is sealed by your own genes relative to other women, and that he’ll never appreciate your efforts to secure his intimacy, since he’s incapable of doing so for evolutionary reasons. And that even if you manage to keep him forever, it wasn’t because he didn’t want to feel affectionate with other women, but was simply unable to do so due to logistical concerns and would abandon you the minute he finds a much younger woman? And even if he doesn’t do that, he was surely thinking of it?

    This is the burden of performance. For a redpill man, this is the kind of world that he lives in.

  • scribblerg

    @LeeLee – Men are upset that the Blue Pill is a lie because if true, it would allow lower value men to still have desire sex. It’s that simple. They want women to desire them without having to be desirous. It’s even worse if you think about it from a PUA point of view. Generating a woman’s interest, attraction and arousal is non-trivial and takes really paying attention to the women. In fact, you kind of actually have to really desire her, as in a way, women are testing men for true desire too when they are selecting. It takes quite a bit of effort to fuck a woman (this is also why MGTOW and other Blue Pillers think just being good looking or jacked or tall is all it takes to get laid).

    Blue Pill men don’t want to do all that work, they just want hot sex when they want it, how they want it. It’s pretty much like a baby wanting its binky – NOW!!! Lol, fucking butthurt beta, blue pill bitches are really starting to piss me off.

    @Jeremy – Sincerity is cheap and often a form of special pleading. It’s cheap and common and has almost no effect once you see it for the emotional manipulation that it is.

    @Matt – Are you also angry that you can’t sprout wings and fly? Being angry that the Red Pill is so is just as futile and self-defeating.

    @DudeRick – Do you actually want to know when your plate/ltr/wife tells you something like that about what she does for you? Sexualize it, respond by saying something like, “Yeah, spin around and show me that ass”, and then slap it. Play into her wanting to please you, she’s begging to be treated like a sexual being. Tell her to put on My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult ‎– Dirty Little Secrets (Music To Strip By) and show all that work off. I did that one night when I was 38, dating a nubile 23 yr old waif. Our date for the night was playing strip miniature golf in a makeshift course i set up around my apt (all you need is a few of those red plastic cups, cheapest date ever and i bet she still remembers it). I remember that song playing in the background. Women want to be sex objects, but only for those of us who “get it”. I used to get it…I’m getting back there in a hurry.

    But my sense is that you want to see it as some form of manipulation. The longer you see women as the enemy, the longer you will be miserable and useless with them.

  • stuffinbox

    After being fed the blue pill with a spoon full of sugar.Then being shamed and ostracized for any display of masculinity they set me loose on the world like Parcifal.To be exploited kicked and beaten for my ideals.To finaly resemble an alpha chump.Upon learning about the red pill everything made sense and I could no longer blame anyone myself included for living a lie that was so well perpetrated.The red pill went down that easy.but the blue pill is like trying to remove a treble hook without ripping the guts out.Like pulling a splinter it hurts but leaving it in prolongs the pain then it festers.I think the pain may be relative to the extent of the deception more so than the actual age of discovering the truth.I still want to fight the good fight and have no more illusions of who to involve in the planning.My commitments get what they need not what they want and don’t concern themselves with how I provide this.If anyone wants more they can go get it.

    That being said I’m happier in my life and work ,there is no place for politics or manipulation in what I do.Work seems to be the only occupation that makes sense.

  • scribblerg

    @Forge – Your comment is epic. Just take a look at any 40 yr old overweight women who men treat like she is invisible – is not male sexual nature just as cruel in its own way?

    @Duderick – Your observation about male agency is also brilliant, men have an innate ability to be actors in the world which women have to work harder to generate. Of course, for men who’d rather play 40 hours of video games a week and LARP on manosphere and mentally masturbate, well, the very idea of their own agency shames them so they suppress it.

    And here’s the Thrill Kill Cult album I was talking to. It’s great stripping music. One of my favorite cuts on it is “Hard, Fast and Beautiful”…

  • scribblerg

    @Stuffin – What Rollo is offering us is the step to take from where you stand. I get it, it’s a mindfuck for sure but once you’ve gotten that you have to ask yourself the following questions:

    1. How long will I wallow in self-pity upon this realization?

    2. So what? Really – so fucking what? Part of the Blue Pill idealism and equalism is this idea that things should be fair and just – horseshit. Why shouldn’t you live a life that is full of suffering and deceit? Why not you? Why are you so special that you shouldn’t suffer? Most human’s lives are full of suffering and oppression and misery. You are just another bozo on the bus and are not special.

    3. What’s next? Make the choice to take on self-improvement and become your own point of mental origin. What else is available from this place? MGTOW – embracing desolation and rage and seeing women as monsters? Is that really an empowered, happy place to stand? Fuck no.

    But as with any other endeavor in life, many men just don’t want to change. They don’t want to do the work. They are content to settle for petty ego gratification and delusion. Fair enough, but don’t expect me to do anything but scoff at such a choice. And don’t kid yourselves, folks, you are choosing either way. Choose wisely.

  • elitelami

    When men discovered that the earth was round not flat navigators didn’t bitch and moan about revising maps and having to design tools to accommodate the nature of the earths geography.

    Rollo has distilled the nature of the female and armed with that information you have the power to construct you life however you want and fashion tools to market his possible and yet you bitch and moan and whine.

    I hate male pussies

  • scribblerg

    @LeeLee – Also, you last post on shame, apologizing and mercy was incredibly insightful and honest. I’ve never seen apologizing described in the way that you did in that post. You have surprising self-awareness and compassion for a woman and I bet that is a result of you being with a dominant, strong man you feel submissive to, yes?

    I’m starting to think that women are bitches so often because they don’t feel safe being otherwise and don’t have that protective dominance only a man can give them. Submission must be so delicious for a woman. As for me, I don’t have much experience submitting…

  • stuffinbox

    @Scribb
    Thanks man my first mode of self improvement will be getting some much needed rest,then maybe a long ride on the scooter.It’s hard not to see her as a monster when she monster fucked my legs off Saturday night.
    But realy I totaly agree with your points I just don’t see whats next and to tired to realy give a shit right now.

  • Mistral

    From a strictly deductive standpoint DL’s ex should have loved him for the idealized, pro-social, pro-family, pro-parental investment, pro-providership and pro-egalitarian that were some of the most integral parts of his life’s Blue Pill conditioning.

    Yep. But we ain’t playin’ “Should’ves”. For any man older that his early teens, Shit Gets Real, fast. You can be the Car Crash or you can be the Backlash. Your choice.

  • ETA

    Being Red Pill doesn’t mean one shouldn’t invest efforts in Blue Pill goals. He shouldn’t expect the result to be ideal, but that doesn’t exclude him from wanting the same goals as one living in a BP paradigm.

    Example: Not being being an equalist, doesn’t mean a man doesn’t expect/want a woman to bring money in the family, what it means is that you don’t expect the woman to make just as much as you, but you still want her to make some money.

  • hank holiday

    I posted a while back to yareally and some other guys. Sorry I can’t remember your names. I can never remember the names of things. Today I couldn’t remember what a bagel was called, so i just asked for “3 bread donuts”.

    I haven’t made much progress as my issue is more one of location and motivation than PUA. However, I’ve narrowed down on what I need to get past that.

    I have been getting a lot of iois from girls. Not 100% sure why. Problem is they are all in passing, such as when a girl walked all the way across the almost empty restaurant to sit at the table closest to me me. I was already almost late for work so I had no time to do anything. It sucked.

    I saw a nice half japanese half indian girl at a deli, and got to talk to her real briefly, but enough to learn that she usually got called a mexican and hated it. So I thought naturally I could say “oh, hey its that mexican girl” when I saw her again and tease her about it. However, I went back many times but never saw her again.

    So I’ve been looking all around, trying to find girls I am attracted to so I can get that rush of adrenalin to be able to consistenty practice pua (I have to at least see a girl I like first, THEN I can flirt with girls I don’t like. otherwise I just can’t get myself to care). That was until I watched this show with a bunch of Korean girls and I was like, I would fuck the shit out of all those girls. Even then, when I had horrible sleep problems (2-4 hrs sleep a night for a week) and was sick, I would LOVE to go hit on those girls right then if I could. I could get completely blown out and I wouldn’t care at all because holy shit there are actually pretty girls around.

    That got me thinking. I will probably be able to get a house with a guy I work with here in the next month or so. Its almost right next door to a university (10 min walk away) and is close to downtown (10 min drive away). But I don’t think that will really help me much because I don’t like this area and don’t like the girls here at all.

    I had planned to work for another year to save up some money and get more job experience, and then move to another state, but now I realise I should really leave ASAP, and I should go to another country. Problem is I don’t have much work experience or money. Im not like guys in their late 30’s or 40’s who have saved up for decades and can just go spend a month in a foreign country.

    But that’s what I would like to do. Go to a completely new country. It will be a brand new place that I have never been before. I won’t have to hunt around for days just to see maybe (if I am lucky) a single girl that I like. Instead, I will be in a place that is almost 100% girls I like.

    I have no idea how I would do this though. I don’t need much money, but I do need enough to eat and have a place to stay.

    Any suggestions? I just feel like doing this, if I can, would supercharge my efforts, not just in that I will be infinitely more excited and motivated than I am currently, but also in that having to get by in a foreign country mosty or entirely on my own will help me to develop as a man.

  • DeNihilist

    So here’s the paradox according to FI.

    We (men) are to be trained by them (women) to be BP.

    Yet when fully trained in said dynamic, the trainers (women) then turn on us (men) and yearn for A MAN.

    Interesting.

  • jorxster

    @Hank

    I think the fastest way is to study and get a career that is valued overseas. Or if you can set goals and motivate yourself, pick up development skills like web or app development, then you could even work remotely from anywhere in the world.

    in my case, I’m not even 30 yet but could get a job in almost any (modern) country in the world, (europe, asia, south america, etc). That’s after 5 years of highly specialized IT developer (and I’ve never been to Uni, either.)

  • LostInThePlantation

    If you’re looking for a relationship where your dedication, loyalty and love are returned in kind, you can still have one, you just need to look in the right place. Get a large breed, male dog and you will find exactly the bond and level of reciprocation you are looking for. Keeps its mouth shut, will love you and stick by you no matter what, always happy to see you, takes immense pleasure in even the smallest things you do for it.

    When this all boils down to for me is comparing where I am now to where I was when I was 9 years old. Back then women hardly figured in my life, I was spontaneous, free and happy. The drive for sex then caused chaos in my life, providing me with this powerful drive to meet a woman and bed her.

    The romantic notions of mutual love and respect are probably to a large extent the male ideal of rewarding a female for a steady supply of sex – they just mistakenly expect this to be reciprocated from a member of their species for which sex is not a strong motivator for anything beyond casual pleasure and childbirth.

    If you’re honest with yourself, as soon as you have gotten sexually bored of a female all those high-falutin feelings aren’t nearly as important to you and usually your loyalty and exclusivity of commitment is the first thing to go – this is the red pill women understand, that they are essentially semen receptacles for men and all the airy fairy emotional lovey dovey bullshit is just an expression of male gratefulness (which is why it has no real value to them).

    The real crisis of the Red Pill for me has been realizing that absent sex I have little interest in women. There are exceptions (and good women) but for the most part I find them shallow, boring, self absorbed, obsessed with triviality, gossipy (and extremely antagonistic to other females behind their backs) and often not all that bright. The women I find myself appreciating are the ones who show signs of selflessness and nurturing – those who cook for and care for the people around them.

    So what.. now I am supposed to want to stick my dick in someone who I am not even interested in having a conversation with? Someone whose motives I implicitly understand and have no appreciation of? Accept that I will in this process become an Alpha widowmaker leaving a trail of female wreckage behind me?

    And even if I secure my sex supply from multiple sources and stay emotionally aloof, I am still just kicking the can down the road. By the time most men are 60 they are not realistically in the game anymore. They will then live with lack one way or another – I watched it happen to my Alpha grandad who lived to 94 and spent the last 30 years of his life without any sex supply after decades of screwing his young university students. It tortured him for all those 30 years – dude used to hit on my girlfriends.

    So I am not sure plates and sex for sex sake are actually the answers. The answer might be to reduce psychological reliance on sex itself, and thereby reduce psychological reliance on women altogether. To focus on the male things that provide joy and simplicity. To treat sex like an occasional indulgence rather than an object of pursuit – I really can’t see anything else working in the long term.

  • LostInThePlantation

    And an off-topic observation concerning the dominance of the female imperative. If hypergamy is winning, and women are out there riding the alpha cock carousel and generously rewarding the Alphas, bad boys, douchebags and jerks with pussy time – why is the first generation of males birthed by these women the biggest bunch of pussies in human history?

    You can blame the feminized culture to some extent, and the comfort and ease provided by the West, but even physiologically there is a noticeable increase of scrawny, slack-shouldered, oval faced kids. The only thing I am seeing change is they are taller than Generation X. A German friend of mine told me that boys wearing makeup is becoming common in Germany.

    There should be a shitload of sexy sons walking around in this climate of unrestrained hypgermany and dominant FI. Where are they?

  • Culum Struan

    @having a bad day – welcome (back?) to the TRM comments threads..the water’s fine!

  • RedJoker

    I’ve been realizing recently that Red Pill awareness matches very closely with Objectivism. It ties in with idealism (both the vulnerability and the strength), our definition of alpha, and our emphasis on reality.

    From Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand):
    Metaphysics: objective reality
    Red Pill awareness is about accepting reality for what it is.

    Epistemology: reason
    The title of this blog is “The Rational Male”…

    Ethics: self-interest
    This is the definition of alpha, having yourself as your mental point of origin. It has also been described as enlightened self-interest, both on this blog and in Objectivist books.

    From https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/19/the-cardinal-rule-of-relationships/:

    Rollo Tomassi wrote:

    This is the man who passes the sh!t test. It’s called ‘enlightened self-interest’ , and a principle I wholely endorse.

    Divided Line wrote:

    All I did was treat my ex the way I wanted to be treated. In fact, that’s all I did in any of my relationships. And not even because I was trying to be Ghandi or live according to some conscious code, but simply because that is what came naturally. That’s what made the relationship appealing and worth investing in in the first place. Feeling that way about her cultivated a selfless aspect of myself, one that I actually *like.* I miss feeling that way. I loved her because she inspired me to treat her the way I did, or to want to treat her that way.

    Selflessness is only a virtue if you’re operating in a Christian philosophy. In objectivism, selflessness is evil. As we know, women feel no arousal for the selfless man.

    Politics: individual rights and capitalism
    Not a topic that’s covered much on this blog but lines up with the politics of most Red Pill writers, who strongly favor capitalism.

    This is where Objectivism ties in with idealism from a red pill perspective. The vulnerability, from an Objectivist point of view, is the idealism of egalitarianism. The strength is the idealism of seeing the world as it can be; of building, creating and shaping by Man’s hand and mind.

    Aesthetics: metaphysical value-judgments
    Pretty much what all of the red pill blogs as entities in themselves are.

    Objectivist aesthetics ties in to the metaphysics of reality and also idealism. Art is a method for the artist to describe what is ultimately true and important about the nature of reality and humanity. Red Pill blogs are a method for the artist to describe what is ultimately true and important about the nature of reality and humanity.

    Divided Line wrote:

    My idealism was co-opted to serve the FI, but what is competing idealism? Stoicism and being a badass who can take it? Beating myself up for being beta and striving for what? It’s like I’m supposed to improve myself, but I can’t see anything that I would actually regard as an improvement, just traits that would appeal to women’s hunter gatherer libido.

    It’s interesting that Stoicism is so popular among the Red Pill since the Stoics were essentially hippies. There are some interesting ideas but it’s ultimately bankrupt as a philosophy—it preaches cutting yourself off from your emotions (as if that were possible), and so the world. If you read Xsplat you’ll be aware of the power that using your emotions has on women. Stoicism just teaches the emotional management side (and not very well).

    Anyway, recommended reading: The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

  • Culum Struan

    @Hank holiday – good on you for reaching out and asking for help.

    If you check out YaReally’s archive I think he’s answered variations of your questions before. Basically if it’s important enough to you, I’m sure you CAN find a way. Like we can’t give you specific advice without knowing details about where you live, what work you do etc and it’s not advisable to post that information online.

    But I refuse to believe you literally can’t move to another state where there are more girls you like and get a job at McDonalds if you REALLY wanted to (unless you are divorced and have kids living nearby now or something).

    That said, are you sure there aren’t girls you like in your current local area? If you are in a large university town, you are in pretty much the best place possible for hot girls (with the exception of LA, Vegas, New York, Miami perhaps), and a variety of hot girls at that (I mean – Japanese/Indian? I’ve never met a girl like that and I’d love to).

    Isn’t it more likely that your brain is coming up with a “buffer” against rejection? Like instead of risking rejection from a girl it’s easier to go “Oh, she’s not hot enough for me”.

    If you’re really sure it’s the girls you don’t like, then figure out why that is and move to somewhere that DOES have girls you like..

  • Pinelero

    @DeNihilist (January 19th, 2016 at 1:14 am )

    “So here’s the paradox according to FI.
    We (men) are to be trained by them (women) to be BP.
    Yet when fully trained in said dynamic, the trainers (women) then turn on us (men) and yearn for A MAN. Interesting.”

    Is it a paradox or just covert communication that men “just don’t get” (and women don’t really get either). BP acceptance of equal opportunity before the law for voting, property rights, and economic opportunity for women is now part of society, and it is a fixture of how men relate to women outside of relationships. Men have to compete with women for jobs, to serve them as clients, manage women as employees, or have them as a boss.

    Within the framework of a relationship, similar employment of BP equalist idealism may lead to the relationship disappointments like boredom, lack of sex, and being victim of some of the types of women that are drawn to post here. This is why the RP works within the confines of the relationship, and is viewed with suspicion or fear of being implemented as well outside of a relationship (i.e. retrograde back to the 1950’s).

  • vczxcz

    Love these kind of posts, they have the effect on me of reminding how I got into the Red Pill.

    The first text I read and realised something was wrong with the world was “Confessions of a Reformed InCel” by whoism3, and from there I found TRM.

    We are blessed to have the Internet and be able to find answers to these “failures on the matrix” when we occasionally see them. Our brothers in the 80s weren’t so lucky

  • walawala

    Interesting post. I have had this mental debate with myself since learning game 6 years ago. The internal monologue goes something like this: “Why do I have to be such a dick just to keep her interested?”

    Two things: first, you attract the girls in your life you want and game is a tool for that. Deciding to stay or go should be your decision not hers.

    Secondly, and this is from recent experience, I met a girl while traveling recently who because of how I gamed her: neg, push/pull, teasing, then comfort, then escalating, then teasing—kept her intrigued and interested that she was all over me. She wouldn’t bang me insisting that I had to “work” for it to which I replied….”I’ve never had to and don’t need to.” I still didn’t bang her that night but she’s now planning to meet up with me again and kept saying “I love your classic phrase ‘we’ll see’, lots of unpredictability”.

    After all that as I had to leave I did send her a youtube clip of a song we had danced to. “Wow, she texted, so many sides to you.”

    Right… This is not some random behavior. It’s all aimed at tapping into a woman’s biological need to be dominated.

  • scribblerg

    @WalaWala – Great insights about how to get a woman interested instead of focusing on our interest. I do have a question though. What do you think you could have done differently to have fucked her?

  • Bromeo

    lol a whole post schooling DL in RP, funny but nothing new here. Hes been posting here for a while too, thought he was way past that stage.

  • Bromeo

    “Right… This is not some random behavior. It’s all aimed at tapping into a woman’s biological need to be dominated.”

    I don’t see any dominance in what you wrote on that fr….

  • walawala

    @Scribble Good question. In this case, I think I could have been EVER more of a dick and not been so…as she put it “A beast”. I think once I made it clear I wanted to bang her, I should have pulled back. That or more time. Comfort it needed. Comfort is about either time, or calibration or both. This one happened also to be married so needed a sense of longing. After I left she immediately started texting about when and where we could meet next. Her ASD went up and she wanted to feel more in control. She was uncomfortable about how fast it was moving and told me she had no idea the impact meeting me would have.

    Different levels of game are needed on different girls. There’s another one I’m meeting. She came out to my New Year’s Eve party. I gamed her. Suggested drinks. She jumped on that but she works. So she made time for me in between her work to meet up. Then I was going away, so we met up just before me flying out. The logistics make banging her hard. But…the push-pull….the teasing and the comfort seem to have an effect. The next time we meet up it will be at my place. If the interaction isn’t going anywhere or I sense she’s less than committed, I reach out twice, then never again.

  • having a bad day

    @Culum

    “@having a bad day – welcome (back?) to the TRM comments threads..the water’s fine!”

    yea, i got sick of the stack over there…and the ‘non-nested’ comments here suck less than that, so here i am…lol…(even though i like most of the guys over there and i think they are right about most of that stuff)

    plus, like YaReally says it’s changed in the last 6 months or so…i think the term is ‘virtue-signalling’…lol…it’s become less about red-pill men self-improving and more about feeding the red-pill confirmation bias… without the corresponding calls to action (at least on the political/racial topics)).

    i lost literally EVERY comment i tried to post this last weekend…everything! – game type posts, political/race stuff, even those little ‘in the stack’ notices…lol…i had a couple to you/Sentient on some stuff that got eaten, too…so, i gave up…those nsa filters are cranked down too hard (on me at least…lol). i think they cut me off when i did that analysis/deconstruction on how to beat islam with social media…lol…losing that one really pissed me off bc i didn’t save it (of course…lol) i had just gotten 3 ‘big’ comments through, so figured it was safe…lol…all those guys over there were bitching about the euro invasion, so like a good red piller, i wanted to take some action to ‘better my life’…instead of just complaining (like a girl…lol)…

    plus, i think i need to go back into ‘trainee’ mode on some aspects of red-pilling (mostly issues with my burden of performance)…and i think this is probably a better place for that than CH…

    good luck!

  • scribblerg

    Glenn Frey passed, sigh…Always liked the Eagles and him. Here’s an Eagle’s tune that always got me going. Straight up rock and roll.

  • Divided Line

    Great article and I appreciate the thoughtful comments. For me, it’s just about trying to find a way to get past the anger. It’s just counter productive and feels like baggage at this point. I was turned on to the Red Pill maybe a year and a half ago, and it’s just been the anger phase ever since. Now it’s just about accepting it for what it is and getting on with it.

    Anger and cynicism are like self-pity: They’re like security blankets. What I’m going to try instead is trusting that whatever new goal appears on the horizon will be preferable to the Blue Pill Disney movie bullshit. Even if it isn’t, if I just believe that it might be, maybe I can escape the nihilism and sense of loss which saps my motivation to turn things around.

    I’m trying to let women off the hook so that I can stop feeling such overwhelming contempt for them. To some degree, I can understand what women are doing. They aren’t going to be attracted to you just because cultural convention says they should be anymore than we would genuinely be sexually attracted to a woman because she’d accomplished whatever goals professionally, financially, or whatever. None of those things will hold a candle to youth and signs of fertility. It’s not like either sex chose the way they were wired.

    As a few of you pointed out, who wants to be with a person who feels obligated to them? That’s a fair point. On the other hand, I didn’t mind being obligated to somebody. It gave me a direction and purpose, but whatever Women aren’t built that way. There’s nothing anybody can do about it. I just have to figure out how to put myself first and direct that energy elsewhere.

    It’s a pretty grim, disappointing, and shabby world women have created, but it’s the only world there is so there’s no sense in crying about it. Whatever altruism I have, it’s clearly wasted on women. They don’t want it anyway and I no longer have any desire to go on playing Don Quixote while trying to give it to them, so maybe women and I are finally on the same page.

  • having a bad day

    @kfg

    i’m not sure what you’re trying to say with that photo – either agreeing with me and providing an example… or disagreeing and providing an example…lol…(mostly bc i don’t know what it is exactly…it looks like some girls being punished for being nazi ‘collaborators’?…)

    so, i realized that the photo is triggering me like a Rorschach test…lol…

    if that’s what the photo is, i see 2 things – 1) game works and 2) the competition anxiety/jealousy (butthurt) is strong in women who have ‘settled’…

    if those girls in the photo ‘collaborated’ with nazi ‘alpha studs’, they did it IN SPITE of the social pressures on them to NOT do that. do you think that the social pressures on them to not slut it up with german soldiers before the nazis lost was any less than this photo indicates? of course it wasn’t…that means that red pill/game is accurate…and can trigger girls regardless of the social situ…especially fertile (young, hot) girls…who have yet to ‘settle’ bc they can still attract alpha genetics…

    the other women in that society (through their beta providers/orbiters) need to punish those girls bc it’s just a way for them to secure resources for themselves and their children…which were scarce in the post-war aftermath…and also they have competition anxiety (for largely the same reasons)…bc those girls being punished COULD take their men (in a ‘free market’…) if they weren’t punished…

    do you really think that if those other women had told their beta providers/orbiters to not punish those girls that it would have happened?…or that if there WERE plenty of resources to go around, that those girls would have been punished?…just look at the modern west to find the answer to that…

    this is all just straight up FI…

    good luck!

  • rugby11

    @RedJoker
    “Selflessness is only a virtue if you’re operating in a Christian philosophy. In objectivism, selflessness is evil. As we know, women feel no arousal for the selfless man.”
    http://www.worldcat.org/title/outsider/oclc/606763919
    Very damn true coming from someone who used to put emphasis on being selfless.

    What makes this even more relevant. Is that in takes away the burden of performance. That’s something I had to keep learning. But Rollo was and is a great help in allowing it to become second nature.

    @Divided line
    “Anger and cynicism are like self-pity: They’re like security blankets. What I’m going to try instead is trusting that whatever new goal appears on the horizon will be preferable to the Blue Pill Disney movie bullshit. Even if it isn’t, if I just believe that it might be, maybe I can escape the nihilism and sense of loss which saps my motivation to turn things around.”
    I run bike and move with dance. This is a very important insight all my demons in the pass came from contemplation of very painful experiences when I go back and face them in a red pill aware adult way I heal myself and their is no pity or remorse and anger. I meet two of the most abusive people in my life over the weekend and yesterday. I dived into my demons and let them go.

  • Anonymous Reader

    walawala
    Right… This is not some random behavior. It’s all aimed at tapping into a woman’s biological need to be dominated.

    Exactly. Women are not men. Men are not women. Women are not men who can have babies. Men are not defective women. Many men who consider themselves unplugged are actually still carrying some of this Blue Pill junk in their head, back in the “premises” or “assumptions” part.

    Men often respond badly to attempts at domination by other men. Therefore it is easy to assume, under the “she’s just like me” model that it is mean or even cruel to dominate a woman. It isn’t. As with dogs, who are hardwired to fit into a hierarchy, women crave a man to dominate and lead them. It’s not “sick”, it’s not “wrong”, it’s not “cruel”, it’s not “misogyny” to dominate a woman. It’s necessary, for both her well being and yours.

    As with dogs, who if they cannot identify the pack leader, willl try to lead the pack – a woman who can’t feel that a man is leading her, will try to lead. In both cases – dog trying to be pack leader to humans, woman trying to be “man” to man – nothing good will result. Ask any man whose gone through that.

  • Divided Line

    Idealism has to be a biologically rooted feature of male heterosexuality because we’re typically attracted to the ones we protect. Female heterosexuality must be rooted in opportunism because they’re typically attracted to the protector. We fight the wars and they play war bride and fuck whoever wins.

    We marry the dictates of our sexual firmware to idealism while women marry the dictates of their sexual firmware to admiration. We look down on the object of sexual desire, they look up to the object of theirs.

    The one we protect has no burden of performance. They are permitted to be weak. But this isn’t true for the one we count on to protect us. To earn the admiration of another means to shoulder the burden, to perform, or at least to appear as if we are capable of doing so. So all of that seems to make sense and fit together reasonably well.

    It seems like this is the whole problem for men: It’s alien to us to sexualize admiration the way women do, so hypergamy is like a blank spot, something that is fundamentally foreign to the male condition. I don’t care if some woman cured cancer, it doesn’t mean I want to bang her. As for what women are admiring, it’s inherently amoral and irrational anyway. It’s a sexual, limbic level admiration for strength, mastery, and dominance, not a rational one. So really, she wouldn’t necessarily get tingles if you cured cancer either unless the perception of your status, mastery, and power flipped those biological switches for her.

    So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission? It seems as if we do, but it doesn’t seem to be as dominant a feature of male sexual desire as fetishizing admiration is for women. Am I wrong about this? Women clearly care about dominance, but it doesn’t seem like men care as much about submissiveness. The puzzle pieces don’t seem to fit together as neatly as one would like.

  • GW

    @Duderick B.
    I like your comment. Good way of putting it. Very interesting that the same thing stated slightly differently, a change of angle of frame really, makes it much easier to implement. I have to keep my wife under control with spending $ on clothing or she would consume all of our disposable income buying clothes “for me”. LOL

  • GW

    @Jeremy I appreciate your point.
    Women (current research suggests) only have a slightly larger impact on the gene pool than men do because of mitochondria, which is inherited from the mother only (or, according to some research, almost exclusively). However, there is also research suggesting the father is more important in some ways. Below is a link to one theory. Your general point has some validity, but to say men are irrelevant to the gene pool and we don’t have offspring is not quite accurate.
    What we (historically especially) do have, is less certainty about a kid being ours and the opportunity to compensate for that risk by spreading our seed early and often. Not doing this spreading when the opportunity is available is a sacrifice for us.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2977710/People-genetically-like-fathers-mothers-Scientists-discover-use-paternal-DNA.html

  • redlight

    Amy Schumer (movie trainwreck) does a lot of stand up comedy about being a slut. On network TV she said when she sees Bradley Cooper she grabs her ankles and says “any hole”. So how did she react when a 17 year old nerd spent some time talking to her and the tweeted:

    Spent the night with @amyschumer. Certainly not the first guy to write that.

    Did she:
    1) Ignore
    2) Shame
    3) Agree and Amplify
    4) Get Angry
    5) Forgive

    While you are thinking about that, Amy, 34, now has boyfriend, 29. Would you guess he is alpha or beta? Hint: He says about a photo “One more from last night because this girl looked insanely gorgeous and I’m in love with her”

    Just to be clear she says: “I’ve never been dating anyone that the public’s really known about. But I like that everyone thinks I’ve been single my whole life. They’re like, ‘She got her first boyfriend!’ and I’m like ‘No, I’ve dated people over the years.”

    http://www.people.com/article/amy-schumer-and-boyfriend-contine-public-love-affair-share-adorable-photo

    Back to the skill testing question. She tweeted back:

    I get it. Cause I’m a whore? Glad I took a photo with you. Hi to your dad.

    http://pagesix.com/2016/01/19/amy-schumer-blasts-17-year-old-critic-over-sexist-jab/

    Bonus question: what is the term for a kitten and kat(e) spat?

  • Chump No More

    “It’s a pretty grim, disappointing, and shabby world women have created…”

    I have a bit different take. Women are absolutely culpable in our present misandrist society but they’ve had an abundance of ‘help’…

    – Legislators
    – Divorce lawyers
    – Family law judges
    – Owners of child support servicing companies
    – Partners of PR/lobbying firms advocating for these institutions
    – CEOs of companies whose products are being consumed by women
    – Advertising firms making misandrist commercials to appeal to the consumers of these products.

    All predominately male… not white-knighting, but feeding off the carcasses of destroyed men by advocating, enabling, facilitating, (goading?) women to do what women are programmed to do.

    Am I claiming that women are merely victims? Of course not, just attempting to point out that we’re fighting a two-front war here.

  • Longgone

    LostInThePlantation

    “I watched it happen to my Alpha grandad who lived to 94 and spent the last 30 years of his life without any sex supply after decades of screwing his young university students. It tortured him for all those 30 years – dude used to hit on my girlfriends.”

    You’re worrying me a little here………….

  • Jeremy

    @GW

    Your general point has some validity, but to say men are irrelevant to the gene pool and we don’t have offspring is not quite accurate.

    Thankfully for both of us, I didn’t say that. I was actually speaking to LeeLee, who as a woman has trouble understanding why men might feel sad about the blue pill being bullshit. To explain things in a way a woman might understand, I was forced to exaggerate the fundamental difference that men and women have, that women have been trained to ignore. That difference comes down to the fact that any mother regardless of what she may have done with her hands over her lifetime can always feel satisfied about her life because she’s leaving children behind. Dead mothers leave people who will remember them behind, and they were physically involved in bringing those beings to life.

    Men do not have this “failsafe” in life. All a man has to leave behind is the fruit of his own efforts, the rewards for his own performance. Hence, male satisfaction with life hinges almost directly on what he is able to accomplish given his starting position. Lucky for men, they tend to have more energy to do things, so this should work out… except when women decide that male energy is for their exclusive use and manipulate their way to make use of it.

    Perhaps I went too far in my exaggeration on DNA legacy, but I think my actual point is still valid, that there are fundamental differences in where men and women can take satisfaction from their lives, and it is in this difference that men are manipulated by blue-pill thinking to believe that it’s ok to sacrifice for her, because she “appreciates the sacrifice”.

  • Culum Struan

    @having a bad day – now we just need Sentient here (wala, scray and YaReally all here already). Not sure why the stack is so hard on you – it’s a bit unpredictable but I get all my short posts and a lot of long posts through when using Firefox.

    But the atmosphere certainly a lot more civil and analytical about studying red pill dynamics here..

    Speaking of which (esp if you had something on Islam and social media etc) you (and everyone else) should really be reading Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) blog if you’re not already. Guy obviously reads red pill stuff and has either taken the red pill or is close to it. Can tell from his writing and subject matter. He had a post a while back about how to beat ISIS etc (it had to do with reframing their fight away from being a heroic struggle to convincing the grunt footsoldiers that their commanders were running a con job on them).

    And he just had a recent post on how the United States is basically a matriarchy in some aspects (his version of writing about the FI). I’m convinced he’s just decided to write about the red pill using his own terminology to make it more palatable. ,

  • Andy

    “As with dogs, who if they cannot identify the pack leader, willl try to lead the pack – a woman who can’t feel that a man is leading her, will try to lead. ”

    Agreed. They’re totally like dogs. lol. Hilarious and True.

    “So here’s the thing, do we sexualize their submission?”

    I do. I love that shit. Embrace your masculinity.

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