Sugar Babies

prettywhitegirl

Whenever I use a manosphere acronym I’m always torn between presuming my readers will already know the terminology and need to re-explain a concept that the letters represent to new readers. We use a lot of acronyms and placeholder terms in the ‘sphere. These are necessary, but when you apply needed terms to abstractions and unfamiliar ideas critics will always fill the blanks in for themselves by telling you what you think you mean according to their preconceptions.

Next to the (abstract) terms of ‘Alpha’ and ‘Beta’, SMP and SMV are two of the more contentious placeholders for manosphere concepts. SMP is Sexual Marketplace and SMV is used to represent the relative Sexual Market Value of an individual within that SMP. There’s a lot to consider when when we attempt to define just what that ‘marketplace’ entails, but the point of contention for critics is that by valuating a person based on a perceived market state we dehumanize that individual. For those uninitiated to Red Pill concepts, a complete denial of any sexual marketplace is usually the first retort.

People are People and everyone is special” or some variation of the nebulous individual’s uniqueness needing to be held as the benchmark for each case of ‘value’ are the common refrains. Even denying an observable, measurable marketplace altogether for fear of being ‘judgemental’ is part of the Red Pill critic’s predictable counter to the idea of a sexual marketplace.

However, the latent purpose of this denial is really a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ tactic that keeps players ignorant of the system they exist in. Just as with the 49th Law of Power, deny the game exists and you can better play it.

As with all Red Pill truths, the awareness of where one fits into the scheme of the SMP, and accepting the sometimes cruel realities of it can be a bucket of cold reality for men (and women). The simple truth is that our capacity to valuate various stimuli in our environment has been a survival-beneficial adaptation for us.

We commodify a lot of our personal lives these days. We simply don’t have a problem accepting the easier aspects of this. ‘Time is money” is quick aphorism we apply to a lot of situation for ourselves. When a woman does the breakdown of all her ‘unpaid’ housework or childcare for an article in Forbes she’s lauded for commodifying and valuating that work. But let a man commodify women based on their general sexual appeal and utility to his sexual strategy and he’s dehumanizing and objectifying women.

If you’re interested in further reading about how we apply market principles to various aspects of our lives I’d suggest the book Life Inc. by Doug Rushkoff. It’s a great read, particularly the ideas about how we view buying a house as an investment rather than a place to live. I bring this up here because it’s a similar dynamic to how women invest themselves with men in the long term and the short term according to Hypergamous necessity. Women’s Hypergamy largely defines the modern sexual marketplace.

The Benefits of Opportunism

Women love opportunistically, men love idealistically. I’ve written several essays about how Hypergamy predisposes (often subconsciously) women to sexual opportunism, and men’s concept of love is rooted in idealism. I won’t belabor summing up these dynamics today, but if you want to review them you can read through the Love series of posts, and male idealism can be found here.

In 2016, the modern dating landscape, as well as contemporary marriage, has become varying degrees of ‘sex work’. I went into this topic a year and a half ago in Commodifying Love. This post was mostly meant to elaborate on another post Dalrock had written observing the utility feminist had with being miserly with love. I sought to explore it a bit further:

As Open Hypergamy becomes more proudly embraced and normalized in society, so too will women’s sexual strategy be laid more bare. And in laying that strategy bare, so too will women’s opportunistic model of love become more apparent to men. This new apparentness is already conflicting with the old-order messaging that kept men hopeful of realizing their idealistic love state.

Women cannot sell Open Hypergamy and the love-conquers-all ethereal ideal love at the same time.

I daresay this quote was a good bit of foreshadowing. One aspect of having a Red Pill lens is that it allows you to see the writing on the wall in so many ways with regard to intersexual dynamics and how they influence societal shifts. When I proposed that men and women’s concepts of love differ, and that much of the disconnect between the sexes is the result of the fact that we don’t share a mutual point of origin for that love, Blue Pill people got upset.

Women’s concept of love originates in an opportunism stemming from a subconscious need to optimize Hypergamy. To this day I still get angry comments from women for having used the word “opportunism”. Naturally, there’s a negative connotation to opportunism, but I use it in this context to describe a function in women’s sexual strategy. I could’ve used the term ‘practical’ or ‘pragmatic’, but often enough what inspires women’s need to optimize Hypergamy is anything but practical or pragmatic.

Everyone needs to realize that men are the “romantics pretending to be realists” and women; vice versa.

This week I received more than a few requests to give my take on the latest trend in women’s sexual opportunism. This comes courtesy of Vanity Fair and their exposé of the Sugar Babies/Sugar Daddies “dating” dynamic that’s become part of The New Prostitution Economy. Have a read of the whole article, but the short version is a breakdown of how women (all in their SMV peak years) look for “arrangements” with generous men eager to fund their lifestyles or (ostensibly) their education goals. In exchange, these men get the privilege of ‘dating’ if not fucking these women who would otherwise be out of whatever league they ascribe themselves to.

sugarbabies_2

I have a real love-hate relationship with articles like this. It’s far too easy to pile on and get wrapped up in the salaciousness and outrage dynamic – which is really what the article is written to prompt. But at the risk of writing an article about how “horrible women are/becoming” I think this trend is really the next logical extension of what I was describing in Commodifying Love a year and a half ago.

Yes, it’s just prostitution by another name. Yes, there is a pop-culture effort to normalize what would otherwise be a manipulative exploitation of men – but who cares, right? If poor Beta saps have the money, it’s only pragmatic that women legitimize the ‘pay-to-play’ model while they can capitalize on it in their prime years, right? And yes, the feminist narrative will simultaneously vilify the men resorting to being a “Sugar Daddy” while applauding the empowered women who play the game as well as they do.

Sarcasm aside, what’s underneath this dynamic is a graphic illustration of just how women’s opportunism looks when the stigma of keeping Hypergamy concealed from men is now brought into the light and proudly embraced in a feminine-centric social order. The social effort to normalize Open Hypergamy takes another step forward when women’s effective prostitution becomes indistinguishable from ‘normal’ dating – that is dating based on common attraction or interest.

The ‘date’-as-investment-opportunity becomes inseparable from women’s opportunistic concept of, and approach towards, love. Commodifying love and sex blurs the line between what is genuine desire and what is motivated interest. The conventional meme is that women have a difficult time separating sex from emotional investment, but the progression of Open Hypergamy – in this case the deliberate feigning of intimate interests on the part of women – puts the lie to this and reveals the true pragmatism with which women will apply their sexuality. Open Hypergamy becomes open prostitution, but this relationship becomes an accepted exchange or transaction the more comfortable women get with revealing the crueler nature of their sexual strategy.

“You can’t tell who the hookers are anymore.”

When we look at women’s opportunistic approach to love, psycho-social dynamics like the War Bride dynamic come into stark contrast next to the Sugar Babies trend – they are both natural extensions of women’s need to optimize Hypergamy and ensure their long term security.

“You can’t tell who the hookers are anymore,” says another guy at the bar, a well-known D.J. in his 30s. “They’re not strippers, they’re not on the corner, there’s no more madam. They look like all the other club girls.”

He tells a story of a young woman he let stay in his hotel room one weekend while he was working in Las Vegas. “She met up with this other girl and all of a sudden they had all these men’s watches and wallets and cash. They wereworking.” He laughs, still amazed at the memory.

“It’s like hooking has just become like this weird, distorted extension of dating,” the D.J. says. “ ‘He took me to dinner. He throws me money for rent’—it’s just become so casual. I think it’s dating apps—when sex is so disposable, if it doesn’t mean anything, then why not get paid for it? But don’t call it prostitution—no, now it’s liberation.”

They all look the same because the commodification of intimacy is the same. Hooking is dating when the only degree of separation is in the comfort women have in the transaction. The necessary compartmentalizing of feelings or emotional investment on the part of women – the ones we’ve been sold for so long as inseparable from their sexuality – are only mitigated by men they perceive as having a higher SMV than those who they view as ‘clients’.

Money isn’t a factor in this equation of SMV; why would it be when provisioning is so easily had via dating clients ready to pay her rent or something else comparable? I’ve dug into this before, but with respect to women’s short-term sexual priorities (the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy) money rarely plays a role in genuine arousal; and even then it’s by order of degree in how necessitous that woman may be – or in this case, how entitled to those resources she has convinced herself she deserves.

The larger social embrace of “Sugaring” is an extension of Open Hypergamy. So not only is there an expectation of capitalizing on a woman’s party years, but that once she’s reached the Epiphany Phase she can be relatively confident that her years of Sugaring will be socially normalized and not factor into her long-term capacity to optimize Hypergamy (see the Sandberg effect). Women’s opportunistic concept of love is informed by Hypergamy, so it feeds into the SMP valuation of her intimate transactions.

And this dynamic isn’t just limited to younger women in their SMV peak years; women in their later phases of maturity have also found how useful apps like Tinder are in getting men to do the manual labor tasks they’d otherwise have to pay for themselves.

Genuine femininity has become so rare in our present social order that it can now be bartered as a luxury experience for men who can afford it. So uncommon is feminine behaviors and demeanor now that men will pay a woman’s bills when they can convincingly act feminine, sweet and appreciative. It’s no surprise that married men account for the majority of Sugar Daddies; they seek what they lack in their marriages – sex, femininity, appreciation, caring, even loving conversation – an escape from wives who feel entitled to their efforts and provisioning with out reciprocation.

Even feigned femininity is better than a nagging loneliness in marriage

Transactions

Acknowledging Hypergamy openly is acknowledging the transactional nature of women’s concept of love. It’s ugly, but as Hypergamy becomes an increasingly normalized a blurring of the line between dating and prostitution becomes more common. As I’ve said before, there will come a point that even the most Blue Pill man will be forced to recognize women’s blatant sexual strategies. As it stands now there is some confusion for these guys, thus, we see men wondering who the hooker is and who the available club girl is because both employ similar methodologies.

As a result men become less able to distinguish genuine desire from transactional role playing by women. Even in marriage transactional role playing has already been normalized and a presumption of a feminine frame of authority pervades most marriages – wives allow a husband to believe he’s in his Frame so long as the transaction is beneficial to what her ego believes is her due (see Briffault’s Law).

Solutions & Caveats

Sometimes it’s not enough to simply say “now you know, and knowing is half the battle”. The other half of the battle is taking actions and precautions to avoid the tar pits and protect oneself. In the future I believe it will be imperative for men not only to understand the nature of women’s sexual strategy, but also what to expect from the results of women’s previous decisions to effect them.

Guys ought to consider that by marrying or engaging in an LTR with former Sugar Babies they will not only deal with an Alpha Widow in terms of her sexual past, but also Sugar Daddy provider widows as well. Imagine the lifestyle switch to a lower socioeconomic status than what her former Daddy provided her with. Even dutiful Betas in Waiting will find their patience tested in competing with the previous lifestyle of a Sugar Baby.

Of course the easiest answer is always to recuse yourself from dating a Sugar Baby, to say nothing about entering an LTR with her, but as I mentioned earlier, hooking will be dating or some crossing of that line in the not so distant future. It’s important to bear this in mind, particularly when the transactional nature of it will run contradictory to the narrative that men are never owed sex for anything. The subcommunication is one of an implied contract, but the indignation will be one of men’s non-selected presumptions that sex is what’s being barter for.

From now and into the foreseeable future men must consider women from a realistic assessment of how their sexual strategies inform their decisions and base their own decisions accordingly. It’s also important to remember that the sexual market place differs in various contexts. Usually this context is reflective of the culture or social group engaging in, and reinforcing it. Women sexual opportunism doesn’t change, only how it’s expressed in a social context. Not all women are ‘Sugaring’, however the motives that allow for a normalization of it exist in all women – even the sweet nice ones who want to make a good impression on you.

It’s not impossible to engender a genuine desire in a woman. If that weren’t the case I wouldn’t be writing, but it’s important to be aware of how Hypergamy will evolved social dynamics to better facilitate its optimization. This can be a very damaging influence on both women and the men who attempt to navigate a sexual marketplace founded on unchecked Hypergamy.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Sentient Of course the ones needing a class are fat. Too bad the only advice they need is the bit they don’t want to hear: “Lose the weight, stop covering yourself in tats, don’t be a bitch, and if that don’t do it then you have to get a real job because women wanted equal rights.” It can be said in less than 30 seconds for free by any dude they meet. I suppose there’s money in telling them what they want to hear instead, so it makes since there’s meet ups. Lotta women living in straight up delusional fantasies… Read more »

SJB
SJB
6 years ago

@scray: Ha! I’m busted.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“The market only clears if the price is right.”

Those creatures, whatever they are, can’t afford me.

@Digireaper:

It sounds to me as if you need to build an apartment – in your mind.
One where you are the only resident, and a grown up.

You note that you wouldn’t go on a cruise again, but you don’t say why.

Pinelero
Pinelero
6 years ago

@man;

“8) By way of deeper consideration wrt the topic of female desire for the masculine, in light of the implication of #4 & #5 above – my arguments around successful masculine conviction-formation inadvertently providing for unintentional “confidence tells”, which women read …….. does provide for the hallmark of better logic due to the better gender symmetry so implied, than other conceptions on this topic put forward here.” Can you dumb this down for me, as I don’t understand where this is going. I’m still can’t determine if you are a troll or not.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Can you dumb this down for me . . .”

The concatenation of a plethora of unusual words that prove difficult to parse the significance of in their totality does not imply that it is the auditor who lacks mental acuity.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

Pinelero – it basically means, wrt the female desire for the masculine, it doesn’t matter what women want – because women don’t possess the rationale to conceive of what they want in the masculine – so the answer to the question – “what to women want wrt their desire for the masculine?” …. is…. “who cares” …. because there is no way to know what matters in this respect, by way of looking to women for the answer to that. All women know is ……. she intuitively knows it when she sees it …… it’s in the tells for genuine… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Now also interestingly …… this doesn’t mean that men should ignore women’s perspective …… but instead . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

. . . don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

Rollo – why don’t you have a crack at unpackaging the implications of the Demographics essay that M Simon linked – showing how your view is contrarian to my view in this respect (mind you – logic will be expected wrt your efforts)

http://issues.org/13-2/courtw/

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

– advice taken. Have started reading Hariri’s Sapiens. Only partway through but interesting how he points that it is nearly universal through history in all cultures (except the late 20th century West) that men were of higher status than women, but virtually all other distinctions (race, religion, etc) varied tremendously and why there is no good reason to explain that.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

kfg – ” . . don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do”

yeah – seeking the women’s perspective is not easy ……. it’s both listening and watching and noticing where the cognitive dissonance arises wrt words not matching behavior, among other exercises, to better inform oneself wrt said perspective.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@man

First you need to read “Date-onomics: How Dating Became a Lopsided Numbers Game” which ….. greatly ….. expanded the original idea wrt the old article, updated the numbers, and ….. flushed out ….. some stuff. Once you have unpackaged that, then post wrt your latest thoughts

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@kfg

The concatenation of a plethora of unusual words that prove difficult to parse the significance of in their totality does not imply that it is the auditor who lacks mental acuity.

I’m sorry, your pathetic attempt to mimic a certain individual didn’t even register on my bullshit-o-meter. You need more words, sentence complexity, and run-ons. lol

theasdgamer
6 years ago

Sunbody wrote: I suppose there’s money in telling them what they want to hear instead

Yep…dating coaches…soak the old, fat broads

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

CS – in one of the youtube vids on a Harari lecture – he does have a theory – he postulates that normatively, women are in fact superior at better control of resources (the measure of social dominance he so uses) within smaller groups of less than 150 individuals that are not under existential threat by another group. He postulates that women’s strengths wrt the reading of the emotional subtext of those around them allows for said superiority. Harari goes on to postulate that for humankind, what has happened is that this female strength has been usurped by a certain… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

redlight – I think you are referencing the wrong link wrt my comment:

http://issues.org/13-2/courtw/

SJB
SJB
6 years ago

: Mimesis, when attempted with courage and sincerity, forces the individual, or community, to interrogate the roots of self regarding the desire to in-group self away from the discomfort – and opprobrium – of out-grouping; self-regarding completely exposes the existential base of pathos enabling the self to both differentiate within the in-group and out-group while, at the same time, retaining membership in both while yet strengthen the pillar of positive ego core. In such state, self finds pathetic as the ultimate good, the stance par excellence buttressing forays into other-space.

(This is serious fun.)

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

@redlight – thanks I’ll check those articles out re Hamptons sex party etc

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

speaking of desire at a deep level… what @TheMan jerks off to at night.

http://all-len-all.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/hillary-16.jpg

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@asd

kfg wasn’t mimicking, he was demonstrating.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

Andy – what?! Hey – I know your kidding but the joke ain’t even funny cause you misreading me somehow.

Hillary is very very bad news imo (and I think it should be obvious that such sentiment is in keeping with my views on things).

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

@Scray – the distinction in my mind isn’t between “spending money” (or time/effort/whatever) and “not spending money” – as you say all men are paying even if it is with time/effort. More like I want the “genuine desire” and to be viewed as a Lover so no (or very limited) resources will be invested *in the girl*. I’ve spent stupid amounts of time and fair amounts of money on dating – cover charges for clubs, extending business trips and paying for the extra hotel night myself, car rental, gas, time (driving to the next city, or to a rural area… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
6 years ago

“a man always pays. How much and what coin are deeply personal. We call those we consider to spend too much blue-pill. Regardless of the label, the man always pays.” I see it differently. Some men pay, but a smart man invests. My wife is an income producing net positive asset. I invested time in her initially, but now that she is trained, she pays massive dividends. My costs to keep her, in time and dollars, are far less than what she brings home/does for me and far far less than what I’d have to pay today for a woman… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@The ASD Gamer: “your pathetic attempt to mimic a certain individual didn’t even register on my bullshit-o-meter.” Then I have perhaps succeeded. My intent was not to mimic, but to contrast. I sprachen Highfalutin’, as well as being at least conversational in several systems of jargon. I recognize the difference between the actual tongue and confused, jargon laden, babble seeking to emulate it. I wished to provide an example that demonstrated that even with gratuitous syllable expansion and a certain opacity of word choice it is still possible to communicate succinctly, compactly and to the point. Of course it helps… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@man

what is the title of the paper you are referencing on male/female dynamics/demographics?

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

redlight – the paper’s title “The Drug War’s Perverse Toll” as was first linked by M Simon today in this thread, but under a link called ‘Demographics’. Not sure why M Simon’s link was titled incorrectly (you would have to ask him that).

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Sun epic shit man. Re: depression: manic-depressive disorder aside, the whole thing is really starting to look more like ‘brain signalling dysfunction downstream of immune imbalance potentially caused by changeable lifestyle factors’ rather than the old psychodynamic ‘aberrant personality behavior hardwired in by early-life events.’ Which is great because it means it can be definitively turned around rather than simply routed around. I mean, that’s not to minimize it or say that the biological predisposition can be altered. But it’s a great thing to be able to look at the past and realize, ‘hey, there’s no outstanding reason that has… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Forge

Hey if ya don’t want me banging your daughter when she’s legal, knock up an ugly chick instead of a hot one!

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Holy shit, I made kfg’s point in less words than he did

http://i.imgur.com/qpRRkNU.gif

SJB
SJB
6 years ago

@fleezer: Excellent comment on your part. I’d just mention opportunity cost; I’m sure you’ve adjudicated it wisely but would also say that is the price you are willing to pay. As noted: it is deeply personal.

Cheers.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Sun

If my alleles are half as dominant as I am, well, I’m shit out of luck.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@man

oh, I though you were referring to something written this century, what Simon called “Demographics in College”. My view is men who are incarcerated make poor BB candidates, while also being simultaneously deprived of the AF variety of young hot pussy. Watch Orange is the new Black for counterpoint, and read this more recent paper:

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“If my alleles are half as dominant as I am, well, I’m shit out of luck.”

My wife likes to say that our kids got the best attributes of both of us…

I agree. They look exactly like me.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Holy shit, I made kfg’s point in less words than he did”

And it took me so long to type it that you beat me to my own punch.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Alright, back on topic for a tick. @Rollo “why bother learning Game at all if the nature of women’s Game is just transactional and pussy can be bought? Not only can it be bought, but the transaction is increasingly crossing into openly acknowledged social acceptability – Dating IS hooking.” Well, aside from the possibility that you just enjoy learning game more than earning money like YaReally, or that game is just more accessible in your circumstance…. 1. Game increases your impact regardless of other methods used. If you’re using money to get laid, game will still help you. 2. Game… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

This bullshit is all about posing. The sugar babies are posing for their clients-victims and their clients-victims all pose for the babies. It’s all a posing contest, a game of smoking mirrors and con-artistry. Yet everyone knows this before joining the show. This includes those who pretend to be an authority on “evolutionary psychology” and “social dynamics”. Each attempts to out pose others hoping to gain dominance. It’s really all bullshit, a thin veneer, superficial and lacking real substance. Why be fooled and upset by somthing so frivolous and trite? Alpha / Beta is all about posing. The very idea… Read more »

Random Angeleno
Random Angeleno
6 years ago

Blurring the lines between whore and wife in the exchange of a man’s provision for a woman’s sex, that is what’s happening here.

Used to be the one was 30 minutes and the other 30 years. Fairly clear boundary. Now, pay ’em to leave and pay ’em to stay can be uncomfortably close to each other.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

NBTM cliff notes: “Don’t become, just be.

Fuck causality I guess.

ChunkyMonkey
ChunkyMonkey
6 years ago

@SJF Thanks for the conversation gambit on the other thread and the link to the breadcrumbs article, I get what you’re saying, the best analogy would be, that you’re playing the role of Michael Parkinson (he was a chat show host in the UK many years ago), and if you do that well the women will do most of the talking (and the way to do that is ask an open ended question, as opposed to focusing on specific details). Rather than at the moment me feeling like I’m trying to get blood out of a stone. I enjoyed the… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@NBTM

“merry ground of paper tigers”

did you mean

merry go round of paper tigers, as in a non-threatening carousel?

“you’re all a bunch of posers” (or poseurs) is often a subculture reference, and doesn’t work well in an aimless rant, perhaps more focus in the next one

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@NBTM:

Knowing it’s a game is what makes the game enjoyable.

ChunkyMonkey
ChunkyMonkey
6 years ago

@Sentient,

Relating back to what SJF said, the open ended question stuff, in terms of the mystery method, is part of the Conversation and Connection phase, but this is after A1 (openers, false time constraint, neg), A2 (making her interested by DHV’ing with a story of some sort), and A3 (you showing interest in her)?

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ NBTM ” This bullshit is all about posing. The sugar babies are posing for their clients-victims and their clients-victims all pose for the babies. It’s all a posing contest, a game of smoking mirrors and con-artistry. Yet everyone knows this before joining the show. This includes those who pretend to be an authority on “evolutionary psychology” and “social dynamics”. Each attempts to out pose others hoping to gain dominance. It’s really all bullshit, a thin veneer, superficial and lacking real substance. Why be fooled and upset by somthing so frivolous and trite? Alpha / Beta is all about posing.… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

ChunkyMonkey

http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/Before_PU/basic/280.html

No time… Check out the overview… it’s very short…

hank holiday
hank holiday
6 years ago

@digireaper Nice to see you again. Wondering where you were. First Sun, then you. Everyone is coming back now. Well, I ended up going to a cruise trip 2 months ago, alone. That was the first time I did that kind of travel, alone Firsty, that’s a huge deal. For anyone. Especially since: I made stops in ports of 4 different countries. And I went alone in a couple of them, I asked the local people for directions, used public transportation, you know small stuff. Yeah going to not one but 4 new countries is a big deal. That is… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@NBTM

There, there. Let’s treat that butthurt for you:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/004/420/91f.gif

hank holiday
hank holiday
6 years ago

@digireaper

You can also think of a few openers and follow up question, and post them here. We can look over them and give you some tips.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Sun

Lol. GODDAMN!!!!!!!! It is GOOD as fuck to have you back!!!!

Lol.

* note to self: Sun is back in effect, don’t sip coffee while reading comments any longer*

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

This topic makes me think of sexual polarity in society. Men crave femininity, women crave masculinity. What happens when supplies of both fall low? Demand increases and substitutes arise. Women are less effected at first since they have less aversion to sharing one of the few remaining masculine men than men have of sharing a woman. Like we say here, a man wants a woman to be a slut, but she has to be his slut. And a woman prefers 10% of a high-value man to 100% of a low-value man. So women ride the carousel until they can’t, because… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@ Ranger
@Chunkymonkey

(Sorry Chunkymonkey, I don’t remember your frame of reference. And Ranger I don’t have any advice on interacting in a city with a foreign languge).

But perhaps these links may be of benefit:

http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/advanced/235.html

http://www.succeedsocially.com/

Lost Patrol
Lost Patrol
6 years ago

@Rollo:

“And yes, the feminist narrative will simultaneously vilify the men resorting to being a “Sugar Daddy” while applauding the empowered women who play the game as well as they do.”

I was nodding my head in agreement whilst reading this, right up until – “Sarcasm aside…”

I really figured that would be the narrative. I’m living at cynicism critical mass.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Sugar Babies. It is interesting that this phenomenon even exists, but it is understandable *why* it exists. What I’m curious about is this, are 20 something year old men as in awe of young(er) chicks as us older guys? Lol, by US, I’m referring to a very large percentage of the male populous that appears to be obsessed with young women. I understand that it is driven partly by biology on some level, but the feeding frenzy mentality we are now witnessing is driven on another level by society and the various media. As regular readers here that know me… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Jesus Christ on a boogie board”

Google images has nothing. Opportunity knocks.

Jedi Wonk
Jedi Wonk
6 years ago

15 years ago, I set my main partner-in-crime up with the most beautiful woman I had ever met in . He is even more of a geek troll than *I* am. After a year she told him that she would no longer be accepting his $10,000/month.

Had she gotten a better offer? No, he was not showing up often enough to get what he was paying for!

GW
GW
6 years ago

Wow, the Sugar Baby chick in that video is like a 5.5 and she is able to easily extract money from guys? Jeez. Sorry state for the world of men this must be. @Rollo, “If poor Beta saps have the money, it’s only pragmatic that women legitimize the ‘pay-to-play’ model while they can capitalize on it in their prime years, right? And yes, the feminist narrative will simultaneously vilify the men resorting to being a “Sugar Daddy” while applauding the empowered women who play the game as well as they do.” This is the reality, as we say. Game theory… Read more »

Jedi Wonk
Jedi Wonk
6 years ago

Ten years ago, I ran into a damsel in distress: a shop girl whose car was about to die and who had no money to fix it/no credit to get another. So my partner bought her a new Mercedes convertible. When the man we both worked for at the time, who happened to own a major league ball club, met her, he sent his private jet to fetch a selection of engagement rings from his personal jeweler in another state. I was bombarded with calls from my partner’s family members beseeching me to “don’t let him screw this up!” But… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Some folks have way too much money. Some have way too little.

Life is funny…. lol?

Weyman Lundquist
Weyman Lundquist
6 years ago

I was divorced by my wife after 23 years of marriage. She was a good person, and she definitely made the right call. We had an amicable divorce and I am so much happier now. (I don’t pay spousal support because I always insisted that she pay her own way) I have been debating whether I will ever marry again, and no is pretty much winning. I am pretty good with the sugar daddy thing. It is kind of a relief for a man to know that he can have a beautiful GF without getting married again. The fact that… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
6 years ago

@forge @yareally @scray Okay, so this FR is dedicated to playdontpay, since he’s my biggest fan. Couldn’t do it without all your kind words and support. So there I was, standing outside the mall with sweat beading up upon my face. I beheld the tall brick facade of the building and was overcome with apprehension. Would this be another day of nothing more than wandering the labyrinthine halls within? Or would I finally find my valhalla of big booty bitches? lol Anyway, saw a 7 white by the railing. Was a long way down. “Does it give you the hebbejeebies… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Blaximus “What I’m curious about is this, are 20 something year old men as in awe of young(er) chicks as us older guys? Lol, by US, I’m referring to a very large percentage of the male populous that appears to be obsessed with young women. I understand that it is driven partly by biology on some level, but the feeding frenzy mentality we are now witnessing is driven on another level by society and the various media. (ed. no shit sherlock, it’s bad” Blax, one of the things I learned from reading Harari’s “Sapiens” book is confirmed by our knowledge… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

Sugar babies are simply listening to their FI spokespersons, when those spokespersons say: “The only difference between you and someone you envy is you settled for less.” (Megyn Kelly (hypergamy queen) interviewed by Sheryl Sandberg (open hypergamist)

http://fortune.com/2014/10/07/megyn-kelly-sheryl-sandberg-mpw/

Kelly decided to make her life philosophy “settle for more”. It’s her and the sugar babies prerogative.

It’s normal behavior for women in 2016. Want to try to fix normal? Good luck with that. Start being better.

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@Novaseeker “It does reveal, though, that many more women would openly hook, or do something like SBing, which is the functional equivalent of hooking, if they could do so without stigma, and also without feeling like they were hooking.” This goes back to what scray and I were saying about with the Nancy Friday shit. Like, this whole “what, women would do this stuff?!” mindblowing experience a lot of red pill guys will go through hearing about all of this is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a good demonstration of “look what happens when you provide an… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

My comments at 6:52 reflect why someone like me clutches family life (hard won and monogamy–or not). It’s really a throwback to that old school European Community life (ref. Switzerland). It’s not really so bad in the Upper Middle Class when it is cultivated over years. At least it’s not nihilistic or “riding the tiger” of the new paradigm. And it recall’s F. Roger Devlins call for the old school. Of course, the old school is probably not available to the new school. But us old school guys aren’t going to throw the old school away–when it is working, and… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@ YaReally You. Complete. Me. Lol. ” Of course you do, you’ve had your fill of hot young pussy. But good luck convincing the guys who are you when you were 20 years old that they should have a “reasonable perspective” lol” Everything you said is 100% Troof, buuuutttt…. I had pretty much the same perspective at 20 concerning women/pussy ( except for a short period where I’d lost my fucking mind. I’m better now. The voices in my head are much quieter..). I recall a chick that was pretty much as close to a 10 as I’m willing to… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Oh, and a chick can’t give you pussy, you can GIVE her dick. Lol. You’re Da Prize.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@YaReally A lot of the “the girls in EE/Asia/wherever are way hotter than those American sluts” thing in the Manosphere isn’t actually about hotness levels Yes. Don’t get me wrong: part of what’s appealing about those parts of the world is that their women aren’t hambeasts. The chick I’m banging right now is asian, 5’2″, and weighs all of 105 soaking wet. Women in those parts of the world are actually concerned about their looks, because they actually realize that they can’t change biology and make men like fatties. But the other part is that yes they haven’t had the… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Blax

I recall a chick that was pretty much as close to a 10 as I’m willing to give her, telling me once while making out that if I’d beg her for it, she’d fuck me. I was in my teens. Talk about messing up the ” moment “. I cursed her out…since my hard on vanished like D.B. Cooper… and almost Hulked out I was so offended.

I don’t matter how hot she is, a blatant Frame grab like that deserves only one reaction every single time in all circumstances:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/038/732/633673088039538329-nukethemfromorbit.jpg

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Side note: started lifting finally tonight after finding a good set of used weights. I don’t want to imagine the second day soreness I’m gonna have, ‘cuz my every muscle feels like Emily after the entire frat runs a train on her.

#YesIWentThere #ShotsFired

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

“She was serious. Her head was just a little to pumped up for my tastes. Experiences like that helped to form my perspectives. I figure I can *maybe* put a thought into guys heads about hot chicks.”

Don’t bang Crazy?

Based on Rollos tweet #JenniferAnniston today:

https://therationalmale.com/2012/04/27/single-hot-crazy/

You and 2 million other viewers probably have seen this reference in the manosphere before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwbKYcBdVyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjBuicfuJ8I

@Sun Wukong

Just a reminder: If you lift and are sore for two days, you can lift on day three and not get sore-er.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Yeah, I usually aim for a return on the third day and it works out.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@YaReally

” … mindblowing experience a lot of red pill guys will go through hearing about all of this is just the tip of the iceberg”

You mean blue pill guys? Do you want me to quote 100 threads from r/TheRedPill alone about what TRP guys expect?

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@redlight “You mean blue pill guys? Do you want me to quote 100 threads from r/TheRedPill alone about what TRP guys expect?” I mean Red Pill guys. Unless you’re suggesting that none of the guys on TRP, in the Manosphere, MGTOW, MRA, PUA, etc have madonna/whore complexes and/or still categorize girls into sluts and good girls. If you think putting the Red Pill in your mouth is the same as swallowing it, you might as well read through that Tag the Sponsors thread again to watch a bunch of red pill guys having trouble digesting what they’re seeing. @Blaximus “I… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@redlight You mean blue pill guys? Do you want me to quote 100 threads from r/TheRedPill alone about what TRP guys expect? sure. they talk tough and blah blah fucking blah but then when CONFRONTED with the shit, you see all this butthurt OMG THIS IS WHY WOMEN CANT VOTE. OMG SOCIETY HAS COLLAPSED. OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG I CAN’T BELEE THIS. NO GIRLS ALLOWED IN THE FORT EVAAAR or at least, that’s what most of it reads like to me 😀 i don’t even know how people can even be mad about any of this shit. when you… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@yareally

“I mean Red Pill guys … have madonna/whore complexes and/or still categorize girls into sluts and good girls.”

So Red Pill guys don’t believe in AWALT?

M Simon
6 years ago

SJB July 13th, 2016 at 10:34 am @M Simon: I wonder how many female college students, toned and fit 6s and 7s, become SBs as the same-age Chads are taken by the 8+ girls. I was witness to that when I was working in Tennessee on contract (Robert Shaw Controls). A bunch of guys/girls of upper class status were partying a rather down scale restaurant (compared to their class) and I was sitting at a near by table. The girls were obviously ranking the guys for their $$ potential and the queen bee was getting the “best guy” who was… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@redlight
“So Red Pill guys don’t believe in AWALT?”

They SHOULD. But like scray says:

“sure. they talk tough and blah blah fucking blah but then when CONFRONTED with the shit, you see all this butthurt”

I deal with reality not theory.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@scary

you guys should just watch Nymphomaniac….pretty much the entire theme of the movie….power. that’s a TRP ever there ever was one.

I’ve watched I & II, no surprises, you should know I have a bdsm background

M Simon
6 years ago

SJF July 13th, 2016 at 8:18 pm Well I violated the rules almost totally. The LTR was a 9/9. Hot/Crazy. Over the years I have been teaching her to be saner. Funny enough as her SMV declined she was more receptive to sanity. Since I still get a fair number of IOIs even at my age (71) the LTR has to up her game to keep some other girl from sweeping me away. Too funny. What helps is that she is proud/terrified that I still generate interest. Proud because women rank each other on how their guy does with other… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@redlight

I’ve watched I & II, no surprises, you should know I have a bdsm background

lol if you watched on that level you missed the entire point.

SHE’S NOT A NYMPHOMANIAC BRUH…..

.she’s. addicted. to. power.

M Simon
6 years ago

But that’s rarely actually men’s end goal. Their end goal is generally to feel legitimate desire from women, not just a wet hole…otherwise they would just go fuck hookers.

Back when I realized that pussy was easy (N #4 or #5) I decided that I would not bang any girl who was not ravenously hot for me. If she didn’t have very high interest I wasn’t interested. It limited my N count. But the experiences were excellent.

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

Meanwhile, while women are being taught to be Sugarbabies and Red Pill guys watch Nymphomaniac, and Blaximus rants about the good ol’ days, this is what kids are being programmed with before there’s any masculine influence in their lives till college (esp in single mother homes, and even in college they’ve become SJW beehives where the men better toe the line or face a kangaroo court firing/expulsion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z5ICVEIRIk Oh god, 14:30. If you don’t know who this slimy douchebag is, he’s the guy who wrote filmed edited etc Anita Sarkeesian’s series. The dude has a fascination with manipulating social trends… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

You don’t have to get married to have this lol I’ll get the same treatment showing up with a hot fuckbuddy I’m not legally tied to. We use girls for this kind of stuff all the time. Was at a business meeting today and brought the LTR along (she had set up the meeting). The guy and I were discussing electronics, mechanical engineering, and raising capital. The LTR had dressed in a tight blouse that showed off her best assets. Her 42 DDs (naturals I might add). And I noticed the guy giving the DDs the eye. My first thought… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@scary

“.she’s. addicted. to. power.”

read this and explain it:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/feb/21/jamie-bell-charlotte-gainsbourg-nymphomaniac

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@all re: Where This Discussion Is Heading:

I think we can agree that Redpill includes a healthy combination of experienced, knowledgeable men and dudes still in the anger/bargaining stages of RP digestion. And a few paranoid fabricators which are endemic to any online fringe group.

M Simon
6 years ago

As such, conclusions drawn from investigations into the man/woman differences don’t pass the logical sniff test if they imply an asymmetry at the level of the individual unit. Of course there is asymmetry. Women want men with higher earning potential than them (usually) and smarter than them (usually). As to IQ. A difference of more that 20 points will doom most relationships. That is a little over 1 SD. Beyond that they can’t talk to each other. I got me a HB9 who could do trigonometry. A fairly rare combination. OTOH she was right on the edge of the amount… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

kfg
July 13th, 2016 at 11:24 am

Hilarious. And true

M Simon
6 years ago

The Man
July 13th, 2016 at 1:01 pm

redlight – the paper’s title “The Drug War’s Perverse Toll” as was first linked by M Simon today in this thread, but under a link called ‘Demographics’. Not sure why M Simon’s link was titled incorrectly

UH. Dude (well possibly an over estimate). M/F ratio is an aspect of Demographics.

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong
Lifting – Good and you’ll be sore for the next 3 weeks but keep at it. However I’m starting to side with YaReally with the not needing to lift thing if you got good game. For us newbies it’s probably just a crutch. But I’m 57 and lifting for me (besides the obvious visual aspects) is more about testosterone management. This is key at my age.
Also, check out the reddit fitness group for tips on how not to hurt yourself.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@YaReally

What impact is Sarkeesian’s series going to have? It’s very obvious propaganda.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Disgruntled

I’m already in reasonably good shape due to jogging and kung fu, so it’s a purely fitness thing for me. I’ve always been at least health and fitness conscious. I hate feeling weak and flabby at all regardless of if I’m pursuing women or not.

As for reading material on the subject I’ve been using Rippetoe’s Starting Strength as my resource for now.

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Yareally This? “I’m talking about how do you convince them to get married and then not blow that marriage up?” my question is just how the fuck do you teach them to even WANT to stand up against all that social pressure in the first place? or this? Because you were fortunate enough to receive social conditioning that other guys didn’t and future guys won’t. Your warnings are an alien language to a 20yo guy in 2016 Why do you not believe that “social conditioning” will work on kids on one hand and then call out the very same social… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

One thing that I didn’t really expect with the little girls is how they’re born with femininity. Like the dresses and pink thing is hardwired. I have no idea why a dress would be hardwired… maybe the feeling of vulnerability?? not sure. Also the color pink??? No idea.. Sounds fucked up, but it’s pretty obvious.. Most of the little girls are obsessed with babies too… Like, even at 18 months they start pretending to be a mom. It’s fascinating. Definitely hardwired.

newlyaloof
6 years ago

@YaReally, Hey man. I’m updating my summary page of all your advice I’ve been compiling. I think it would be quite helpful if I could get you to do an example of the A1 – S3 that I can add to the page. You left a few of these in the past, but I’m having a hard time finding them. I have a link to the MM cheat sheet, but having a FR-ype example with convos would be cool. I’ll keep looking in the meantime.

newlyaloof
6 years ago

@YaReally, also MM looks alot like Tyler’s Digest and his V.A.C.Q.S. where he adds a few more distinctions (V Q), so if you want to mention that, cool too.

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

OK for guys looking for Red Pill movies… here is a good one for summer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hFH3q5bz1Q Big Wednesday – the story of an Alpha, a Sigma and a Beta with a special guest appearance by the FI. Movie was released in 1978. Some great RP observations to be had and a great reminder of the kinds of fun times to be had with your bros. I had the good fortune to get into lifeguarding and did this every summer through college… and surfing as well. It is a pretty RP culture still to this day. Many times taking surf trips,… Read more »

Ranger
Ranger
6 years ago

@SJF and Redlight. Thanks for the readings and actions advice. This week has been a lot of work, so not enough time to go out. Still making an effort to open people at the conference I am at, and keeping the conversation going. I did the Autism Spectre test and scored 19 out of 50, which according to the test means no or little autistic traits. It is as I expected, I really do think that most of my people and relationship issues comes from bad conditioning and can be mostly dated to my early teen years. I was a… Read more »

Ranger
Ranger
6 years ago

Forgot to add

I live abroad for work, but am taking every opportunity to travel to places on my own since the divorce. I know that travelling alone is one of the best ways to force me to adapt and pusj my comfort zone. And my trip to Russia gave me a lot of good reference experience, and still paying dividends, in training and information at least.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@redlight

read this and explain it:

read the behind the scenes interview and use that to explain what?

she goes to the sadist because she’s trying to reclaim her power….

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

M Simon: I said to redlight: “redlight – the paper’s title “The Drug War’s Perverse Toll” as was first linked by M Simon today in this thread, but under a link called ‘Demographics’. Not sure why M Simon’s link was titled incorrectly” You said to me: “UH. Dude (well possibly an over estimate). M/F ratio is an aspect of Demographics.” Alright fair enough, I shouldn’t have taken the short cut, and instead said to redlight “Not sure why M Simon’s link was titled differently”. My apologies to you M Simon. Of course the nomenclature you use for your own electronic… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@scary “she goes to the sadist because she’s trying to reclaim her power….” nice try but no Finally, and perhaps most tellingly, Joe seeks a sense of control and power through sex. … At one point she says to a sex partner, during coitus, “I can’t feel anything,” and it is clear that she is talking not just about physical numbness, but emotional numbness. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201404/nymphomaniac-realistic-look-female-hypersexuality This is was written about the first movie, but applies just as well to the second, with the bdsm and other extremes. First, who do we all know who suffers emotional numbness (and likely physical… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

redlight – nice insights (you know – except about Emily – I would rather leave that one alone myself – don’t know enough to make those judgements – but I can see your logic at the superficial wrt Emily, nevertheless). But for other women I have know personally – yeah – I can see how your insights are not superficial. I have long wondered what is going on here with such women (and there probably is a male counterpart for this kind of thing – but it would function and operated differently methinks). Question: To your way of thinking –… Read more »

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