Sugar Babies


Whenever I use a manosphere acronym I’m always torn between presuming my readers will already know the terminology and need to re-explain a concept that the letters represent to new readers. We use a lot of acronyms and placeholder terms in the ‘sphere. These are necessary, but when you apply needed terms to abstractions and unfamiliar ideas critics will always fill the blanks in for themselves by telling you what you think you mean according to their preconceptions.

Next to the (abstract) terms of ‘Alpha’ and ‘Beta’, SMP and SMV are two of the more contentious placeholders for manosphere concepts. SMP is Sexual Marketplace and SMV is used to represent the relative Sexual Market Value of an individual within that SMP. There’s a lot to consider when when we attempt to define just what that ‘marketplace’ entails, but the point of contention for critics is that by valuating a person based on a perceived market state we dehumanize that individual. For those uninitiated to Red Pill concepts, a complete denial of any sexual marketplace is usually the first retort.

People are People and everyone is special” or some variation of the nebulous individual’s uniqueness needing to be held as the benchmark for each case of ‘value’ are the common refrains. Even denying an observable, measurable marketplace altogether for fear of being ‘judgemental’ is part of the Red Pill critic’s predictable counter to the idea of a sexual marketplace.

However, the latent purpose of this denial is really a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ tactic that keeps players ignorant of the system they exist in. Just as with the 49th Law of Power, deny the game exists and you can better play it.

As with all Red Pill truths, the awareness of where one fits into the scheme of the SMP, and accepting the sometimes cruel realities of it can be a bucket of cold reality for men (and women). The simple truth is that our capacity to valuate various stimuli in our environment has been a survival-beneficial adaptation for us.

We commodify a lot of our personal lives these days. We simply don’t have a problem accepting the easier aspects of this. ‘Time is money” is quick aphorism we apply to a lot of situation for ourselves. When a woman does the breakdown of all her ‘unpaid’ housework or childcare for an article in Forbes she’s lauded for commodifying and valuating that work. But let a man commodify women based on their general sexual appeal and utility to his sexual strategy and he’s dehumanizing and objectifying women.

If you’re interested in further reading about how we apply market principles to various aspects of our lives I’d suggest the book Life Inc. by Doug Rushkoff. It’s a great read, particularly the ideas about how we view buying a house as an investment rather than a place to live. I bring this up here because it’s a similar dynamic to how women invest themselves with men in the long term and the short term according to Hypergamous necessity. Women’s Hypergamy largely defines the modern sexual marketplace.

The Benefits of Opportunism

Women love opportunistically, men love idealistically. I’ve written several essays about how Hypergamy predisposes (often subconsciously) women to sexual opportunism, and men’s concept of love is rooted in idealism. I won’t belabor summing up these dynamics today, but if you want to review them you can read through the Love series of posts, and male idealism can be found here.

In 2016, the modern dating landscape, as well as contemporary marriage, has become varying degrees of ‘sex work’. I went into this topic a year and a half ago in Commodifying Love. This post was mostly meant to elaborate on another post Dalrock had written observing the utility feminist had with being miserly with love. I sought to explore it a bit further:

As Open Hypergamy becomes more proudly embraced and normalized in society, so too will women’s sexual strategy be laid more bare. And in laying that strategy bare, so too will women’s opportunistic model of love become more apparent to men. This new apparentness is already conflicting with the old-order messaging that kept men hopeful of realizing their idealistic love state.

Women cannot sell Open Hypergamy and the love-conquers-all ethereal ideal love at the same time.

I daresay this quote was a good bit of foreshadowing. One aspect of having a Red Pill lens is that it allows you to see the writing on the wall in so many ways with regard to intersexual dynamics and how they influence societal shifts. When I proposed that men and women’s concepts of love differ, and that much of the disconnect between the sexes is the result of the fact that we don’t share a mutual point of origin for that love, Blue Pill people got upset.

Women’s concept of love originates in an opportunism stemming from a subconscious need to optimize Hypergamy. To this day I still get angry comments from women for having used the word “opportunism”. Naturally, there’s a negative connotation to opportunism, but I use it in this context to describe a function in women’s sexual strategy. I could’ve used the term ‘practical’ or ‘pragmatic’, but often enough what inspires women’s need to optimize Hypergamy is anything but practical or pragmatic.

Everyone needs to realize that men are the “romantics pretending to be realists” and women; vice versa.

This week I received more than a few requests to give my take on the latest trend in women’s sexual opportunism. This comes courtesy of Vanity Fair and their exposé of the Sugar Babies/Sugar Daddies “dating” dynamic that’s become part of The New Prostitution Economy. Have a read of the whole article, but the short version is a breakdown of how women (all in their SMV peak years) look for “arrangements” with generous men eager to fund their lifestyles or (ostensibly) their education goals. In exchange, these men get the privilege of ‘dating’ if not fucking these women who would otherwise be out of whatever league they ascribe themselves to.


I have a real love-hate relationship with articles like this. It’s far too easy to pile on and get wrapped up in the salaciousness and outrage dynamic – which is really what the article is written to prompt. But at the risk of writing an article about how “horrible women are/becoming” I think this trend is really the next logical extension of what I was describing in Commodifying Love a year and a half ago.

Yes, it’s just prostitution by another name. Yes, there is a pop-culture effort to normalize what would otherwise be a manipulative exploitation of men – but who cares, right? If poor Beta saps have the money, it’s only pragmatic that women legitimize the ‘pay-to-play’ model while they can capitalize on it in their prime years, right? And yes, the feminist narrative will simultaneously vilify the men resorting to being a “Sugar Daddy” while applauding the empowered women who play the game as well as they do.

Sarcasm aside, what’s underneath this dynamic is a graphic illustration of just how women’s opportunism looks when the stigma of keeping Hypergamy concealed from men is now brought into the light and proudly embraced in a feminine-centric social order. The social effort to normalize Open Hypergamy takes another step forward when women’s effective prostitution becomes indistinguishable from ‘normal’ dating – that is dating based on common attraction or interest.

The ‘date’-as-investment-opportunity becomes inseparable from women’s opportunistic concept of, and approach towards, love. Commodifying love and sex blurs the line between what is genuine desire and what is motivated interest. The conventional meme is that women have a difficult time separating sex from emotional investment, but the progression of Open Hypergamy – in this case the deliberate feigning of intimate interests on the part of women – puts the lie to this and reveals the true pragmatism with which women will apply their sexuality. Open Hypergamy becomes open prostitution, but this relationship becomes an accepted exchange or transaction the more comfortable women get with revealing the crueler nature of their sexual strategy.

“You can’t tell who the hookers are anymore.”

When we look at women’s opportunistic approach to love, psycho-social dynamics like the War Bride dynamic come into stark contrast next to the Sugar Babies trend – they are both natural extensions of women’s need to optimize Hypergamy and ensure their long term security.

“You can’t tell who the hookers are anymore,” says another guy at the bar, a well-known D.J. in his 30s. “They’re not strippers, they’re not on the corner, there’s no more madam. They look like all the other club girls.”

He tells a story of a young woman he let stay in his hotel room one weekend while he was working in Las Vegas. “She met up with this other girl and all of a sudden they had all these men’s watches and wallets and cash. They wereworking.” He laughs, still amazed at the memory.

“It’s like hooking has just become like this weird, distorted extension of dating,” the D.J. says. “ ‘He took me to dinner. He throws me money for rent’—it’s just become so casual. I think it’s dating apps—when sex is so disposable, if it doesn’t mean anything, then why not get paid for it? But don’t call it prostitution—no, now it’s liberation.”

They all look the same because the commodification of intimacy is the same. Hooking is dating when the only degree of separation is in the comfort women have in the transaction. The necessary compartmentalizing of feelings or emotional investment on the part of women – the ones we’ve been sold for so long as inseparable from their sexuality – are only mitigated by men they perceive as having a higher SMV than those who they view as ‘clients’.

Money isn’t a factor in this equation of SMV; why would it be when provisioning is so easily had via dating clients ready to pay her rent or something else comparable? I’ve dug into this before, but with respect to women’s short-term sexual priorities (the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy) money rarely plays a role in genuine arousal; and even then it’s by order of degree in how necessitous that woman may be – or in this case, how entitled to those resources she has convinced herself she deserves.

The larger social embrace of “Sugaring” is an extension of Open Hypergamy. So not only is there an expectation of capitalizing on a woman’s party years, but that once she’s reached the Epiphany Phase she can be relatively confident that her years of Sugaring will be socially normalized and not factor into her long-term capacity to optimize Hypergamy (see the Sandberg effect). Women’s opportunistic concept of love is informed by Hypergamy, so it feeds into the SMP valuation of her intimate transactions.

And this dynamic isn’t just limited to younger women in their SMV peak years; women in their later phases of maturity have also found how useful apps like Tinder are in getting men to do the manual labor tasks they’d otherwise have to pay for themselves.

Genuine femininity has become so rare in our present social order that it can now be bartered as a luxury experience for men who can afford it. So uncommon is feminine behaviors and demeanor now that men will pay a woman’s bills when they can convincingly act feminine, sweet and appreciative. It’s no surprise that married men account for the majority of Sugar Daddies; they seek what they lack in their marriages – sex, femininity, appreciation, caring, even loving conversation – an escape from wives who feel entitled to their efforts and provisioning with out reciprocation.

Even feigned femininity is better than a nagging loneliness in marriage


Acknowledging Hypergamy openly is acknowledging the transactional nature of women’s concept of love. It’s ugly, but as Hypergamy becomes an increasingly normalized a blurring of the line between dating and prostitution becomes more common. As I’ve said before, there will come a point that even the most Blue Pill man will be forced to recognize women’s blatant sexual strategies. As it stands now there is some confusion for these guys, thus, we see men wondering who the hooker is and who the available club girl is because both employ similar methodologies.

As a result men become less able to distinguish genuine desire from transactional role playing by women. Even in marriage transactional role playing has already been normalized and a presumption of a feminine frame of authority pervades most marriages – wives allow a husband to believe he’s in his Frame so long as the transaction is beneficial to what her ego believes is her due (see Briffault’s Law).

Solutions & Caveats

Sometimes it’s not enough to simply say “now you know, and knowing is half the battle”. The other half of the battle is taking actions and precautions to avoid the tar pits and protect oneself. In the future I believe it will be imperative for men not only to understand the nature of women’s sexual strategy, but also what to expect from the results of women’s previous decisions to effect them.

Guys ought to consider that by marrying or engaging in an LTR with former Sugar Babies they will not only deal with an Alpha Widow in terms of her sexual past, but also Sugar Daddy provider widows as well. Imagine the lifestyle switch to a lower socioeconomic status than what her former Daddy provided her with. Even dutiful Betas in Waiting will find their patience tested in competing with the previous lifestyle of a Sugar Baby.

Of course the easiest answer is always to recuse yourself from dating a Sugar Baby, to say nothing about entering an LTR with her, but as I mentioned earlier, hooking will be dating or some crossing of that line in the not so distant future. It’s important to bear this in mind, particularly when the transactional nature of it will run contradictory to the narrative that men are never owed sex for anything. The subcommunication is one of an implied contract, but the indignation will be one of men’s non-selected presumptions that sex is what’s being barter for.

From now and into the foreseeable future men must consider women from a realistic assessment of how their sexual strategies inform their decisions and base their own decisions accordingly. It’s also important to remember that the sexual market place differs in various contexts. Usually this context is reflective of the culture or social group engaging in, and reinforcing it. Women sexual opportunism doesn’t change, only how it’s expressed in a social context. Not all women are ‘Sugaring’, however the motives that allow for a normalization of it exist in all women – even the sweet nice ones who want to make a good impression on you.

It’s not impossible to engender a genuine desire in a woman. If that weren’t the case I wouldn’t be writing, but it’s important to be aware of how Hypergamy will evolved social dynamics to better facilitate its optimization. This can be a very damaging influence on both women and the men who attempt to navigate a sexual marketplace founded on unchecked Hypergamy.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

706 comments on “Sugar Babies

  1. okay, it’s ho ho ho in July

    Sugar babes are just example of women being great resource extractors, it’s never going to be just AF

  2. Wow… a females solipsistic expectation that a man should pay for a normal date is now being extended into paying her rent and school tuition. The sugar babies are just western geisha girls with the rest of them using the gov’t as a sugar daddy.

    What is the sugar daddy rate for a 4 versus an 8?

    “Even in marriage transactional role playing has already been normalized and a presumption of a feminine frame of authority pervades most marriages – wives allow a husband to believe he’s in his Frame so long as the transaction is beneficial to what her ego believes is her due (see Briffault’s Law).” Now I’m thinking what do I give her that makes it worthwhile for her?

  3. I used Seeking Arrangement for a couple months before suspending my account (stopping payment). My photo was pretty generic – not a head shot – but I live in a big enough city where I could be generally anonymous on there. I was a little different, in that I can do well for myself otherwise. Just got bored and curious and gave it a shot.

    I can’t tell you how easy it was to get laid on there if you’re 25-35 and attractive. And all without spending much. The younger, naive ones just want a little shopping and to be treated well. It’s basically dating, just a little bit more expensive. But what’s the alternative? I can spend a little more with a cute and fun 21 year old, or I can date a girl that’s 25 who has been with more guys and who has the BS problems. (Rollo, in your first book you had a part about this. It hit me hard but I’ve obviously ignored the advice- this is too much fun.)

    Then you have the mature ones and the young ones that are really, really savvy. They know what they’re doing.

    One girl I was hooking up with told me about her sugar daddies. Guys that were married and 55+. She’d get a few hundred bucks each time they hooked up. One guy wanted her exclusive but could only pay $600/month. She wouldn’t do it. Another one of her guys was like 75 years old and she just took some pills and drank some wine and turned over and let him finish.

    The sugar baby/sugar daddy thing is becoming very prevalent. Girls I’ve met off that site tell me that they had no idea their friends were doing the same thing until they had to explain the new clothes or older guys they were seeing. And there’s no shame.

  4. rap can be pretty red pill but I’m listening to the new song Champions and Gucci Mane goes

    “I gave my bitch two mil’ cause she stuck around”

    wait, what?

    it turns out he was in jail for a bit, his bitch stayed around (as far as he knew) so he gave her 2M

  5. Sugar babies are effectively prostitutes that pretend to be your girlfriend. As such, they’ll have the same tenacity a girlfriend has to deny you sex and attach politics to the pussy despite being paid far in excess of what an honest working girl charges for politics free pussy.

    Transactionally speaking, that’s a horrible deal for a man.

    And a man who can afford a sugar baby can definitely a college age prostitute, so why the hell would he want a sugar baby?

    As Rollo rightfully states: he’s looking for femininity, for a woman to pretend to desire him and care about him. It’s more of a psychological need than it is a sexual, if it was just sexual he’d see a hooker.

    But as those of us who have been around these parts of the internet for awhile know to be an immutable law of human relationships: desire cannot be negotiated. Paying a woman whatever amount of money will not have her genuinely desiring you. So a man who pays a sugar baby to exert the positives of femininity onto him is getting ripped off. He’s not getting what he really wants from a woman, because the thing he wants can’t be bought.

    Money can buy a lot of things, genuine desire isn’t one of them. It can buy you the drugs and equipment to forge a better body that’ll elicit lust from women, it can buy you access to almost any country and plentiful favours from people at all levels of society – but it can’t buy genuine desire.

    And so if a man accepts it’s not genuine desire, and that’ll he pay for artificial desire, that’s the only way he can even begin to remotely rationalise the sugar baby/sugar daddy dynamic as positive or conducive to his well-being.

    Of course men like us know better. We know this is female predation at its finest looking to rebrand the world’s oldest profession as an acceptable modern social convention.

    Note how the sugar baby/sugar daddy narrative is rooted around the woman’s needs, she needs money for college, she needs money for rent, or whatever. And what does she give in return? “He gets to date her”. A vague non-answer that can be broken down into a couple of things:

    – He lucks out and finds a girl who legitimately likes him and falls in love with him. I’d assign a very low probability to this potential outcome, but it’s possible.

    – He gets to fuck a very expensive and overpriced prostitute a few times per month

    – He gets a girl who is very good at acting and makes him feel desired, this is what he’s really after, the feeling of peak fertility feminine desire.

    – He gets nothing, not even sex, and not even a woman who is any good at pretending she likes him.

    At worst he takes on another financial liability in his desperate search for feminine desire, a leech and a nag who’ll use each meet up with him as an opportunity to extract further money or gifts.

    No doubt she’ll find ever inventive ways to pad her delivery in an effort to increase the probability he gets her that Louis Vuitton bag or pair of designer shoes she’s been eyeing up. At it’s heart it’s just woman’s hypergamic materialism looking to convince and rinse unhappy but relatively wealthy men.

    The name of the game is this: the longer she can convince you she loves you/wants you, the more money you’ll give her. When the facade becomes too much for her to bear and your genuine feelings for her irk her to the point of disgust, she’ll make a swift exit.

    Remember, you can buy pussy, but you can’t buy love. Don’t even be gullible enough to try.

  6. The sugar baby trend evokes a mixed bag of emotions for me. On the one hand, I feel anxiety, fear, and dread that these girls can engage in such scandalous behavior with limited repercussions (few men would have the sense to figure out what kind of a girl she is and therefore rule out a relationship with her. I don’t think she’ll be volunteering details about her sugar baby “career” to potential boyfriends/husbands.)

    On the other hand, it gives me a joyful smirk to look back on all the “out of my league” sugar babies I’ve banged while posing as a potential sugar daddy, only to fuck them and chuck them without paying a damn dime.

    But that’s a racket that will soon be up as sugar dating becomes the norm and girls figure out how to work the game and weed out “splenda” daddies like me.

    One things for sure, any girl I ever consider dating in the future, I’ll be snagging her phone when she’s not looking, pull up, and see if any login information prepopulates.

  7. One girl I was hooking up with told me about her sugar daddies. Guys that were married and 55+. She’d get a few hundred bucks each time they hooked up.

    This is not a bad deal at all for a guy with a good income who might spend exactly that much on “date night” with his 50-something wife – and in this case, he gets to bang a 20-something body instead. It is even more of a screaming deal for a guy that age who is dealing with a dead bedroom and/or a wife who totally let herself go to seed.

  8. In reality these men are purchasing an illusion akin to that of a girlfriend-experience. However, as the woman is “not really” a prostitute in their minds, it is somehow different. If you buy a professional, then you are fully aware that she offers the exact same service to others. However, if you get a “sugarbaby” (that term is the creepiest I’ve heard ever including “furries”) they may rationalize to themselves that they are in fact special.

    In effect, both parties in the transaction are creating a joint frame in which she is not a whore and he is not a john. He imagines that she only does this for him, and she imagines that there is no competition. They are creating a parallel reality that obscures their true actions from their own mind. Neither of them wants to admit the truth of the arrangement.

    Then man gets his fantasy, of a young, peak SMV woman, desiring him above all (despite the fact that desire cannot be bought) thus satisfying him on a superficial level. She gets money for selling her time and body, but in true female fashion rationalizes it away as “he’s not paying for sex and companionship, we are merely dating it is normal for men to help out their girlfriend”.

    It will be an interesting day when the legal system tests whether the hammer of justice or the rationalizations of delusional men and women make up reality.

  9. Oh lordy. Rollo how am I supposed to get any work done when you keep posting articles on such good fucking topics. I gotta not read this one till later in the week lol

  10. Can you summarize Rushkoff’s stance on buying a house? How are you as sucker to the corporation? Better off in a rental apt?

  11. Anecdotal dialogue
    Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
    Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill… Well, I suppose… we would have to discuss terms, of course…
    Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
    Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!
    Churchill: Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.

    Just making honest whores out of amateurs… but really this is not new, the lack of shame is for sure, but in older times they were called “mistresses”. Mistresses got gifts, not hard cash, but also the receipt.

    exchanges were made… exchanges were made.

    Really these days, it’s very hard to go out to a “nice” lounge in a big city and not run into a) full blown escorts, b) seeking arrangements girls or c) part time hookers (ha ha a late 20’s hispanic nurse comes to mind)

  12. This post is a nice breakdown of an age-old topic as Sentient has identified. The only difference now is how much its out in the open due to the destructive nature of feminism.

    Rollo, a small grammatical error under the “Transactions” paragraph. 2nd sentence, you need to drop the ‘an’.

  13. But before I run away, the biggest thing to discuss in my mind in 2016 isn’t the sugar daddies that are actually GETTING sex. That shit’s been around forever.

    It’s the culture we’re in that’s grooming boys into becoming sugar daddies who DON’T get sex and are OKAY with it. Like that kid in that video I posted where he donated all his money to a girl he’ll never even directly interact with let alone fuck and he was on cloud 9. If that kid was at least directly hiring her for sex, I mean, that’s just how shit has been since the beginning of time.

    But the scary part is this breed of Blue Pill FI-conditioned guys coming up who are conditioned to hand their resources to women and feel ASHAMED for expecting ANYTHING from it, to the point where they’re HAPPY and TURN DOWN sex in exchange for it…like they’re literally convinced that they just want to make a girl smile and that’s enough for them, because she’s not some HOOKER SLUT, she’s a unicorn he just wants to take care of and expect nothing in return (except secretly hoping she’ll fall in love with him someday).

    Technology has given these guys the ability to hand their resources over INSTANTLY, across the WORLD, for a girl they only see on a webcam or Instagram/Amazon Wishlist/Blog/Kickstarter/Patreon page, while the FI has conditioned them to do it and expect nothing in return.

    That’s very different than even 10-20+ years ago where that kid in the video I linked would have no way to even KNOW that girl exists (he’d have to interact with girls around him pre-internet) let alone “fall in love” with her and wouldn’t have the technology to just shower her with his resources with the click of a button.

    It’s fuckin crazy. It’s like they’re being conditioned into voluntarily becoming batteries powering the Matrix and will FIGHT someone trying to unplug them.

  14. @black label

    great summary, and it’s less likely she’s a total drug addict, and a lot harder for police to run a sting op on sugar daddies

  15. @yareally

    “It’s the culture we’re in that’s grooming boys into becoming sugar daddies who DON’T get sex and are OKAY with it.”

    as opposed to:

    It’s the culture that has already groomed boys into becoming daddies who DON’T get sex after some time and MUST accept it.

  16. @IllimitableMan: Genuine desire? What is that in a woman? That is, seeking to acquire genes, a dominated orgasm, a month’s rent: what is the difference?

    Fie on a woman’s desire: my desire is her desire. If I desire to make it transactional in my own coin – i.e. my frame – what’s the rub?

  17. Damn, this is such a good article. As someone that has gamed on SA it really rings true. I’ve found great regular plates there, along with the incredibly entitled 24 yr olds who fully expect 1k/meet and more just for their precious time (no thanks). My greatest insight came from a 8 mo non SD/SB relationship with a hardcore sugar baby who was perhaps the most hypergamist women I’ve ever encountered, and fully emblematic of what the article describes. 26. An easy objective 9/10. Older men would fly her around the world – she would convey stories of her pussy literally seizing up, in rejection of SD cock – desire cannot be bought this is for sure. It’s funny though – although many speak of the denial around what the SD/SB relationship is, in her weakest moments she would admit it was ‘work’ (and in many cases thankless from her friends who would tag along while “she did all the work”). Of course, ultimately after playing alpha FB to her for a good while, her feelings ultimately drove a quick exit, as they were getting in the way of her guilt-free hypergamist pursuits which took precedence I suppose. But it sure was a good 8 months, a great plate, and one heck of an education on the SD/SB world that Rollo so accurately describes in hypergamist terms.

  18. @Rollo: While I agree the mainstreaming of dates-for-hire seems to overtly strength the FI, I wonder if the will be a covert backlash: having a mistress may no longer be a cause for divorce—after all, everybody is doing it. Perhaps we’ll hear the equal argument to “man up and marry the slut” as “philanderers are fine providers: cowgirl up.”

  19. Does your wife agree with all of your writings?
    Hope she isnt “sugaring” too much.
    People are generally selfish, i guess its true but not just for women but men as well.
    You gotta be somewhat selfish, as there are more than 7 billion of us on the planet by now.

  20. @SJB

    “having a mistress may no longer be a cause for divorce”

    if you want to see an amazing reverse-gender of this, last week’s Savage Love:

    married for 14 years … Sex between us (often kinky) has always been great. We have a wonderful life together and two perfect children. I learned recently that my wife has been unfaithful to me throughout our marriage. She began an affair with an older man soon before we were married, and they were physically intimate for five years, including bondage and a Master/sub relationship.

    … and of course she slept with other guys. Dan Savage says the marriage is done but assumes the guy is looking for reasons to stay so suggests:

    She must have been loyal to you in other ways or you would’ve divorced her long before you discovered her infidelities. Think back over the last 17 years: every kind and loving gesture, every considerate action, every intimacy, every moment you took care of each other—was it all a lie?
    I’m not trying to exonerate your wife, and I’m not trying to minimize her betrayal or your pain. But if you want to stay together, you’re going to have to tell yourself a new story, one that makes room for contradiction (loves you, cheated on you), betrayal (shitloads), apologies (shitloads from her), forgiveness (shitloads from you), and… some accommodations going forward.

    not bad, but not world class so he brings in Esther Perel, author of Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence, and most recent TED Talk “Rethinking Infidelity”. She says, in part:

    You have a good relationship, from everything you tell me, and the question is always, does one discovery topple an entire relationship, an entire history? …
    You have so much riding on this. Separate the feelings about what you’ve just discovered from the feelings about the marriage. They’re not one in the same. The marriage has accomplished a tremendous amount. You have children, you have dealt with you parents’ illnesses and perhaps even deaths, you have weathered economic turnarounds together. With so many marital tasks in your hands, this does not necessarily redefine an entire relationship.

  21. Also this thread is mandatory reading for this discussion, far as I’m concerned:

    THIS is what’s really happening out there. This isn’t just a few random ex-hookers or some obscure anomaly cases or some shit. This is the culture hot girls with social media accounts are being bred into from their early teens and the type of thing that society is trying to normalize to girls. I’ve met a bunch of girls who have/had multiple sugar daddies and who are offered flights and vacations and all sorts of shit sometimes for sex sometimes for just their attention. And these are just NORMAL girls that you would never expect it from. And they openly discuss it with their girlfriends who have/had similar arrangements/offers. The only reason they talk about it with me is because I’m non-judgemental and bring the subject up in conversation because it’s interesting to me and then they start confessing or telling me about their friends.

    It’s going to get worse and worse and more and more spread and more and more conditioned as “normal/acceptable”…why? Because why NOT? It’s win/win. The guys who would normally have no female attention have found ways to buy their attention, which gives them incentive to work hard and contribute to society to earn money/resources to afford it, and the women get resources for minimal effort (often no effort at all if they aren’t even putting out). And alphas still fuck whatever they want.

    So who’s going to tear this system down or slow it up? That’s why I bring it up…it’s not fully widespread now, but I don’t see any reason this train will derail instead of picking up speed.

  22. Lets put this into a model. have as our major premise that 90% of women are all attracted to and feel genuine desire for 10% of men. This is in line with the writings of Rollo, Heartiste, Illimitableman and many other manosphere authors.

    Given an equal population distribution that means that you have 3.5b women and 3.5b men. Out of those 3.15b women are attracted to and feel genuine desire for a total of 350m men. (I’m not going to adjust for people who are gay, as I assume an even distribution for them as well)

    This obviously will leave either a lot of men or a lot of women in very unhappy states. The men because they will not be able to procreate, the women because they cannot optimize hypergamy.

    This used to be solved through marriage, which “forcefully” distributed women relatively equally among men to avoid large groups of sexually frustrated men, because we can all see how that ends with groups like ISIS. This also ensured that the men would have a stake in being productive citizens, to feed their families.

    In a situation of full on hypergamy, it follows that a great majority of men have no incentive to be productive unless they can be given incentives that require productivity such as providing for a sugarbaby. This becomes their new “family” of sorts. I however doubt that this can take the place of children.

    It also follows that you will have large groups of men with no hope of attaining this status, nor having offspring, therefore no incentive to be peaceful. For these men, the bribe of society has lost its luster and all that remains is force.

    In such a situation 10% of men will be very happy as they get all the genuine desire of the females channeled onto them. However the major question such an arrangement begs is whether in that situation hypergamy will re-calibrate and prefer the top 10% of the top 10%, thus leaving large groups of women unhappy yet again.

  23. lol fuck I love this topic too much:

    Imagine the internal “I’m the prize” value mindset you need to have to talk like this to someone offering you $20,000 lol like just “ugh, no promises, I’ll do what I want, but I’ll LET you give me $20,000 and a vacation I suppose, but my company should be enough to earn that $20,000”

    And YOU (the average dude learning game) wanna go approach a girl while you’re internally thinking “I’m a loser 🙁 she wouldn’t like me 🙁 I don’t have any value to offer her :(” This is why internal game is important lol, you need to view your value the way this chick views hers.

    She offers up her friends to join her in being WATERBOARDED while he jerks off to it. And then sends a video of her choking on a bottle of water for $1000 to prove she can do it.

    And some guy is gonna marry her because he was so impressed at how noble she was when he met her at the rally against the cruelty of waterboarding terrorists for information.

    Not every girl is doing this kind of thing to this level…YET. But like I say, why would the train derail? If you thought Nancy Friday was a good glimpse into the real deep psychology of women, try Instagram lol

  24. for some reason I expect blue pill prof to riff in here with “sex is money”

    Strip clubs, cam girls, porn, dungeons etc. show that sexually based transactions continue to don’t always have penetration. However the degree that men are willing to pay significant amounts of money for just non-sexual female attention will remain very negligible

  25. @yareally @scray

    Went to mall in good city. Didn’t see anything.

    Bookstore. 6 black. But SUPER busy. Probably about 6 people within earshot, several actually sitting down. Came back around a few times, but always lots of people. Tried opening a bunch of the other customers there, but it didn’t really help with the apprehension of opening there — well, of doing so with sexual intent anyway. However, that will help a bunch once I have more experience doing that — in that case, just chatting up the others to show target AND obstacles that I am a cool social guy, so when I go into sexual stuff, the others won’t care as much. Its not some creep doing this, its this fun guy who already made everyone else laugh.

    A 5/6 was at a magazine rack. But same deal. Jam packed. She sat down. I got a magazine and sat down too. But it just felt too awkward, like the time had passed, and again very conscious of others around.

    Went to fancy grocery store. Was a 5/6 redhead. Very thin. Not even remotely my type. Opened her on what beer she liked. Hated her voice (not being mean, just honest)

    Now, unfortunately, there are a few key details I forgot. I don’t remember if she explained WHY the beer was her favorite or if I asked her.

    She did ask me what my favorite was. I told her. Not sure if she asked me why or if I just told her. Inadvertantly did some push when I explained why I liked it — which was that it was pretty much the exact opposite of the one she liked.

    I think she was blushing, but it was subtle and may have been from the heat.

    Didn’t push it further. Definitely can’t go into the manonwoman vibe if I am not attracted on some level. If I try it — and you’ll see that in a bit — it comes off as incongruent and blow the set.

    Walked toward exit. Saw muscular dude in tanktop. Had the haircut where its partially shaved on the sides, moderately long in center. This guy was curious. I couldn’t tell if he was just a gym rat or a gay. So I was analyzing him trying to figure it out. He glanced over at me. But I still had not figured out if he was positive or negative on the sucking of cock. I was determined to do so. We had this wierd moment where we were both looking at each other like “WTF”

    Then we came close together, our lips just brushing past each other. We made out then and there, afterwhich I led him to the mens room where we made passionate gayboy love.

    It was truly romantic.

    Actually I was like “Well shit. Now he’s either gonna beat my ass or bang my ass.” Fortunately, I escaped the hippie grocery store with all of my orifaces unviolated.

    Lol, this just made me remember. In high school I was in class with this artsy bass player guy and a huge jock. The bass player gave me a letter aledgedly written by the jock where the jock professed his love for me and desire to make hot steamy man love to me. So I composed this elaborate love letter back to him. Wish I still had it. Gave it to the jock. He got to like the first sentence before he said “What the hell” got embarrased, and threw it away. Bass player got it out of the trash, read it, and couldn’t stop laughing for the rest of the day.

    Next day, went to mall again. Nothing, but got to chat with some workers. Icecream place. White uggo (yelloew teeth).

    “You guys have a storm here the other day.”

    “Uhhh, I think.”

    “Well, it stormed where I was on Saturday. Thing was, I was at this restaurant when a lightning bolt struck it. It actually shocked a guy there.”

    “No, it coudn’t have been on Saturday. It was friday when it stormed.”

    And she was arguing with me. Not mad or anything. I was thinking. . . okay.

    “There were totnadoes out near the mountains.”

    “Huh. That’s strange. I used to live where there were tornadoes all the time, but you don’t hear of them out here much.”

    “No. there are a lot of them out here actually.”


    4/5 balckish girl there as well. She had given me some napkins with my icecream. White girl gave me somemore

    “Oh I don’t need those I already have some.”

    “Well you can never have too many. It looks like there is too much syrup on one side.”

    There wasn’t

    Turned to balck girl

    “Oh I see. You did that on purpose. You’re like “I can tell I don’t like this guy already, so I am going to make him have a huge mess.”

    Girl was somewhat receptive.

    Uggo then barges in

    “Well have a nice day sir.”

    Could have pushed it further with something about teasing her for being rude or making me go away, but had no further interest in that set.

    Saw a 3 set of blakcs. COuld have done supergirl cold read on them, but they weren’t attractive, and like I ay it is very hard to game on girls out of the blue like that if I’m not attracted to them. Still noting this, so may be able to work on a game to self amuse to get to open the sets like that. It will be easier to open sets of less attractive girls than indivisuals, since I am working the whole group, rather than an indivisual, and I will also get more of a reaction that can help pump my state.

    Will be easier tho if I can get a # earlier in the day. Then I can be like “Okay, made progress. Got a potential day 2. Now I can fuck around will ust social shit and uggos or whatever, and not feel like I am not making progress. I can just go have fun more easily.

    Bookstore. Nothing.

    Mall in bad city. Nothing.

    Saw a lone worker in a clothing store. Waited for it to clear out, then approached. was a 5/6 white. Not attracted.

    “You got any sales?”

    she pointed them out

    “Yeah just looking for some ideas for christmas. Like to get it done early”

    “Who’s it for?”

    “No one in particular. Just seeing if there’s something thats a good price that looks good, then I’ll figure out who it should go to.”

    “You know their sizes.”

    “Not really.”

    “Okay, well you should get (I think it was skirts or something) since they don’t hae to be as exact.”

    “Yeah I am not going to buy anything now, I am just getting ideas.”

    “We’ll have different clothes in here in about a week.”

    “How come.”

    “We’re swapping them out with another store.”

    “You guys have any big storms here the other day?”

    “Umm, I guess.”

    “Well I was at this store the other day and a lightning bolt struck it. Actually shocked a guy who worked there.”

    and she was doing the whole look to the side bit towards another worker off in the distance.

    Thanked her and walked off.

    So here is the deal with this stuff. Didn’t like the girl. When that happens, I pretty much just check out. I don’t care and just go bllllooooaaahhhh. Lol. Second, I don’t care about clothes at all. So from pretty much the get go the interaction is 100% incongruent and just looks all wrong. Also started with a customer vibe, and stayed there too long. Transitioning to a more generally social vibe was jarring.

    Contrasted to when I go to places I actually want to go (bookstore, video store, etc) where I DO somewhat want to be there and know things, so it comes across as congruent. Plus I switch to social vibe — like that white 6

    “You know about these movies.”

    “No guy up front does. He’s the expert.”

    “So what are you the expert in?”

    “I’m studying biology.”

    and then went into cold read. bout 5 sec in. As opposed to clothes girl above, was 1 min to shit to just general socalizing that was incongruent to the situ.

    went back to the mall in good city. nothing there. Then bam, 2 set of 7/8. But this was about 4 hours into the day of nothing but chatting with some uggos and one bad set, so just not menatlly ready to jump into a set like that. Had they been stationary, I probably could have walked around a bit, thinking of aproach, and then eventually open them. As it was they were walking passed me, so didn’t open.

    Saw a place that looked like it sold wedding dresses. Popped in

    “You sell wedding dresses?

    And instantly better. Lol, since I was legit interested, body language was good. I approached clothes girl head on — BAD. Same with girl at deli. Not interested, made myself approach — so also approached dead on — and so she ofc took a step back. Thats a thing — when I am not interested, my bodylanguage is bad. But when I am legit interest on some level, its good.

    So it was here. Enter looking at dressed. Start talking faceing AWAY from girl, then at the end turn to look over my shoulder at her.

    Chatted real briefly about if it was busy. Noted that it came in waves. Slight smirk on girl when I said this. Not as big as with asian 6/7 from week ago, but def there.

    She was like a 4/5 so didn’t push.

    But helped override the bad set.

    Bookstore again, nothing.

    Went to eat.

    Ordered. 6 white with her date. 6 walks up to order at the register next to me. Wasn’t super close to me, but just pinged my radar. Made me look over at her. She just felt like, just a smidge too close. Ordered, then

    “Oh my god. You have that shake now.”

    and guy is like “Go ahead and get it babe.”

    So I chimed in “Yeah, just get it and make him pay for it.”

    She didn’t really respond but guy is like “Yeah, I mean I am paying for everything. So go right ahead babe.”

    (pukes internally)

    Sat down in empty part of building. Front end is also mostly empty. I sit in a corner — to start typing this very FR. And lo and behold the 6 sits down at the table directly in front of me. She sits facing me. It is the only seat in the entire place that directly faces me. There are about 11 other places she could have sat in that section ALONE.

    Guy comes along, gets her to move down to a seat just one back — so rather than be directly next to my table, now there is one table between us.

    7 blakc shows. Looked like workout outfit. Very nice body. Little to no makeup. Probably an 8 all dolled up. In the same range as the 7/8 2 set, but those girls were dolled the FUCK up.

    So, waited a bit. She went to sit down away from me.

    mmm. never opened in a restaurant like this. Go to condiments area. Older blakc worker. Chat up her. She can’t find the napkins! I say, lol, yeah I did that as a prank once. I swapped all the items around and he was like “Man, why can’t I find any of this stuff.” And I’m over in a corner just laughing. He deserved it though. He pranked me, so I got him back. She said she got frustrated at the younguns who messed stuff up. And I said, so thats when you just smack the crap out of them. She said no she couldn’t do that.

    eeeeh. 7 too far off. Went back to eat.

    hmm. mayeb go out to car, then open her on the way back in.

    pass by white cop. female. looks like what you’d expect a white cop to look like.

    “You arrest anyone today.”

    “Not today”

    “So you HAVE arrested someone, right?”


    “What was the craziest arrest?”

    “Oh, I can’t really remember.”

    I just lol at all these white girls. The ugly ones just don’t want to talk EVER. Ugly white chicks are about the only people who ever DON’T want to keep taking to me.

    eehhh. went back to table.

    okay, gonna do this. went out, came back in. 7 is looking out the window, we actually met eyes when I was outside. When I cam back in, she was still looking out.

    “You are a runner right?”

    “No. I’ll take that as a compliment though.”

    “Yeah, I always want to run, but halfway through I’m like ‘You know what, what i really want now is some doritoes. Maybe a couple cheesecakes.”

    “Yup. That’s like me now.” She had a salad, lol.

    Think I asked her about what exercise she did and she said she did nothing.

    “So what do you do for work. Wait. You’re a nurse right?”

    “No, I work at a bank.”

    “Ahh. So you just slip yourself some money when no one is looking.”

    “Nope don’t do that.”

    “Officially you don’t.”

    and huh, can’t really remember what I said. but it was to the effect of yes she did steal money, but like she wasn’t going to admit it. Her “I don’t steal” was a cover.

    So here I opened a lone girl at a restaurant, which was a pretty big deal. Had some eeh, basic A2. Not real strong, but she was definitely talking to me and not trying to cut me off. Needed to provide more value. . .and knew that this was the time to sit down next to her. But wasn’t sure how, so ejected

    This is how it is done. Do like I did, just basic chatting to gauge where she is at. If receptive, go into DHV like this.

    “Maybe you can help me out real quick with this issue I have. Just a real quick question for you.”

    Move to sit down as I say this.

    “So, I have this thing. Came up here recently.” kind of speak slow. get like, that intimate vibe. like just you and me are gonna talk. kind of hard to explain. DHV with 7 would be this

    “So I was out at a coffee shop the other day when this cute girl sat down next to me. She crossed her leg so it hiked up her skirt a bit and showed off her legs. She was giving me them eyes. You know what I am talking about (and show it, glancing down at my crossed legs, then look back up at her, then back to legs. Just aping that smoldering look from girls – – but I’m essentially lasering her as I do this). Thing is, I had a really important project for work I had to get done. So I ignored her for a bit. Once I finished, I chatted with her real quick. buuutt right away I could tell right away we weren’t going to get along. Not my type. So I left without getting her number. Once I got home though, I saw that she friend requested me on facebook.

    Thing is, I never told her my name. She must have looked on my laptop or on one of my papers to get my name.

    So like, I’ve got this stalker now. Lol. What do you think I should do? How should I get rid of her?”

    Get her response. If good, go into my qualification routine. Then can number close with something like “Huh. I never would have guessed you were into Midget goatfucking porn. That’s very interesting. I tell you what. We should meet up for coffee sometime. You can pay since you are loaded from stealing from banks. Okay, well how about tomorrow at 2? Sound good. One last thing though. Just promise me you won’t fall madly in love with me and start stalking me. Already got enough of those as it is.”

    False time constraint is what I was missing. Not thinking of that is what made it feel a bit awkward to try and sit down next to her. But rembering that should help for next time.

    For restaurants then:

    Chat as you pass. Basic social stuff.

    False time contraint.

    Sit down.

    DHV and laser.


    Re: cashier girl: sounds like strong interest from her that she was having to conceal due to being at work/in public.

    yaya. just getting more references of IOIs. And unlearning bad internals. Since I’ve never really done anything with girls, its hard to really deeo down BELIEV they are IOIs. Its different when you have IOI — then bang. But I have a history of HUGE IOI — nothing. Again, doesn’t mean the IOIs weren’t legit. And I know specifically in all those cases WHY things faded later on. But my brain still needs that proof of IOI – then makeout/sex.

    Helps to have other guys confirm IOIs though.

    Girls show off their hair as a way of flirting. Also conceal the bottom of their face, tilt the chin down, and look up to you.

    Learn the basic body language of attraction and you’ll see girls transforming them into casual everyday things like this.

    yaya. Just have to get used to girl’s attraction. As a guy, and attrative girl is an attractive girl. But girls have things like windows. So they can be attracted to you, then fall out of attraction. Which is strange as a guy because, like, a huge titty 8 will alwasy be attractive. So its just getting accustomed to these gender differences that are so strange as a guy.

    Those openers aren’t…. particularly ‘serious,’ in the way I’m meaning. If it helps you, think of ‘serious’ as communicating (IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER) -INTENT-

    Okay, there was the misunderstanding. I was talking about serious as in non-funny for real convos. You mean serious as in manonwoman shit. So yeah, haven’t done that much.

    add to that the fact that like, a girl DIRECTLY COMPLIMENTING you like….throws you off guard and you don’t even know if she’s actually interested. that’s all par for the course of this internal shit I’m talking about.

    yaya. like above. have to recalibrate IOIs. from IOIS = shes probably not actually into you and you are imagining things or she is just being friendly or messing with you — to — IOIs equal attraction. just bad internals from those interactions with girls I had 4+ years ago.

    lol and the fact that like, actually showing ANY intent — subcomm or verbal — is, TO YOU, like…a MAD TRICK JUMP, FURTHER proves my point.

    mostly cuz I am daygaming, in situs where sexual intent is not as socially acceptable and where there are other people around. will prolly try to stop by some bars again later in the week. MUCH fewer girls (period, and especially of girls I like) however much more comfortavle in sexualizing in that venue.

  26. Rollo,

    I said in a comment months ago that woman are incapable of “love”. You disagreed. Sugar daddies are a manifestation of the fact that It’s all a business transaction to women. Their hamster can make them believe that they love, and they do desire men, but at the end of the day it’s all bullshit. You grow up as a Catholic man with traditional parents thinking is sex special. It’s not, it’s a means to an end for women. Even the most hard-core PUAs end up falling in love, and the women dump them. Women do not love as men understand the concept.

  27. Lordy… As always, dryly and precisely on point. I have a plate that was blending into a ltr until I found out she was actively searching for and had met a sugar daddy. Of course she said he disappeared and that was that. I know he, or others like him are in the picture. She’s very careful now but it’s obvious. It sucks. Yes, I know…next. Still sucks.

  28. > Of course the easiest answer is always to recuse yourself from dating a Sugar Baby, to say nothing about entering an LTR with her

    Easy to say, but no chick is going to admit to having been a sugar baby, any more than they admit to having ridden the cock carousel.

  29. okay, so better opener stuff and self-amusing game things to get in state

    very congruent to me, by being incongruent

    gist is that I quote classic 90’s rap songs. But I say them like in a normal convo. Then when she doesn’t know or call me out on it fast (if blakc, which is like 80% of the girls I open) I make fun of them for not knowing it.

    So one I had already thought of was in response to if she asks me something like “What do you think you are doing” or “haha, like THAT is going to work.” then I would say somthing like.

    “Huh. Well usually I just creep up from behind and ask what your interests are, who you be with things that make you smile, what numbers to dial you gon’ be here for a while? I’m gon’ go call my crew, you go call your crew, we can rendezvous at the bar around 2”

    but like, completely normal white boy voice. Will probably slightly change lyrics to be more like something a white dude would say.

    and then if she doesn’t pick up on it, just look at her like shes an idiot

    “You don’t recognize that? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? You call yourself a blakc girl, and you don’t know big papi? What the fuck. You know what, give it to me. Give it to me. Your balck card. You aren’t a balck girl anymore. You aren’t Shanika anymore. You’re sally, the white chick”

    and if anyone else is around, open them

    “Can you believe this chick. She doesn’t know big papi from biggie smalls. I am the whitest white boy around, and even *I* know that shit.”

    So just work out opners and such that use those lyrics. Can quote them literally or translate them into whiteboy speak.

    Also is a good opportunity to randomly drop into being SUPER black. I’ve done blakc girl impressions before just to illustrate points, like not even trying to be funny, and everyone cracked up

    Works since I am so white, people don’t expect it. Same with the rap lyrics, people wouldn’t expect it. So its like “Wait a sec, whats he saying. Oh wait, thats x rap song.”

    Hmm, lots of stuff I can do with this. I’ll have to work on it more.

    Lots of rap songs are super sexual, so there’s a lot of that I can work in as well.

    And I can also use i to qualify girls as well

    “Wow, wouldn’t expect an asian girl to know that.”

    “Most girls don’t figure it out all that quick.”

    and then drop into comfort rapport asking about music, like what other rap songs they listen to, or whatelse they listen to besides rap.

    or can go into cultural differences.

    huh, just lots of stuff here for push/pull, sexualizing, qualifying, etc.

    will work on this more. just thought of it and I think its a winner.

  30. @Nature Boy,

    >Does “women love opportunistically” apply equally to BB and AF?

    Women love betas opportunistically, and strategically

    Women love alphas passionately, and in the moment

  31. Atticus

    You grow up as a Catholic man with traditional parents thinking is sex special. It’s not, it’s a means to an end for women.

    ? ? ? Did you miss the chapter on Lot’s daughters?

  32. @Tom

    So you’re saying that WLO only applies to BB. I suspect that Rollo wouldn’t agree with that, and I’m curious for his take on it.

  33. You still get angry comments from women for using the term “opportunistic” because women like to use that term for men who they feel are seeking to hook up with somebody in the same manner they do. And they intend to use the term with clear negative connotation.
    And like everything else in this world of equality, women despise a man who they think at any time is aware and borrowing the same tactics they use for gain in the sexual market place.

  34. “Genuine femininity has become so rare in our present social order it can now be bartered as a luxury experience for men who can afford it.”

    Normal men can still experience it in limited doses. I go to certain restaurants now not just for the food but because I know I’m going to be served by a young, cute, feminine waitress. At first, they do the whole “fake pleasantness” thing when taking your order or doing small talk, but once you start teasing them or doing C&F, they respond accordingly. Some of my experiences flirting with waitresses were more fun, enjoyable, and natural than actual dates (not on the same night, obviously)

    Honestly, I think a lot of women know how to be feminine. They just don’t know how to be feminine within the context of a dating relationship. Some switch turns on inside of them or something.

  35. Anything that gets YaReally stoked and bringing up old classics is worthwhile reading. Good job Rollo.

  36. “And there’s no shame.”
    Sorta Sugar Daddy, when money is involved, there hardly ever is.

  37. The Rocket lives … and talks about something he knows about … Sugar Babies, lol.

    Haven’t visited this place much in many months and just happen to stop by tonight and find a topic that I am expert at. And Rollo isn’t. So will spill the beans about my situation but then again … I already did. Use the search if you must.

    So my current SB is 12 yrs younger than me. Had her since before I burned my bridges here. First date was Sept of last year. Been meeting weekly since October. So reason #1 of why I am willing to pay a SB; no flaking. I’ve been seeing this girl for 9 months. Nearly every week. That would be meet for sex, twice, every week for nine months and not a single line of bullshit, not a single flake. No … its the wrong time of the month, I’m sick, I didn’t sleep well, work sucks, my car broke down, my phone don’t work, jimmy boy shit his pants, etc. NADDA. Not once. That would be 9 months x 4 weeks x sex twice in other words … I got sex, on demand, 72 times in a row with ZERO FLAKES. For all the doubters … YaReally … I’m speaking to you … try that in the real world. Brad Pitt don’t get 72 times in a row with zero flakes. Now, actually, there has been about 4 weeks where we didn’t get together over those 9 months … 2x over Xmas/NYE doe to the holidays, once when it didn’t work out, and once where she was having her period and not feeling up to it (I’m not a dick, it was ok). But seriously dudes … you sick of getting lied to, treated like crap, stood up, flaked on … put money on it … the dynamic changes when you put money on it. So the real tally is: (9 months x 4) – 4) x 2. In other words … I’ve fucked the same girl 64 times in way less than a year. Got a question for all the married folks out there … do some math, please. Given the frequency of sex you and you wife have … how long did it take for you to have sex 64 times ? Not at the beginning, lol. But now. 2 yrs ? 3 yrs ? 4 yrs ? 5 yrs ? Add up the opportunity cost …. If you add up your time and money spent on your wife … I bet it was 10x what I spent on my SB. And the sex was way better. And she ain’t fat. And she ain’t nagging my ass.

    Frame control is always important and thanks to Rollo for helping me there. I think it was our second or maybe third date … which set the frame. She came over, we fucked and since it was a nice day we went for a walk around a local lake. And then stopped for Ice Cream. We met at a local mall and she left her car there because we barely knew each other then … and we’d agreed to meet for at least 2 hrs on each date. And I’d told her my #1 priority was sex. So we’d been together for 2 hrs … but instead of taking her back to her car … I took her back to my house and fucked her again. And then I took her to her car so she could go home. I set the frame: every time we get together I get to fuck her twice. That’s what I’m paying her for. And that’s what she expects; that’s the frame.

    Second reason I fuck SBs. Instant respect and yeah, that’s back to frame. She’s an SB for a reason … like most women she has no idea how to manage money. She’s a nurse and makes a pretty good income but spends way more than what she earns. So … I’m rich, I’m successful, I got money to burn … instant respect in her eyes. I don’t think men in the sphere realize how bad it is for most men. The beta schmucks they like to make fun of … are BROKE … pretty much all of them. Divorce-raped, paying child support, etc. Most men, even desirable men … have no money to spend on a woman and OH, HOW THEY LIKE THAT !!! You wanna see a woman’s eye’s light up … drop some cash on her. In today’s environment … that you are able to even do that … you get put on a pedestal, instant respect.

    Third reason I fuck SBs. CHOICE. I don’t like FATTIES. Find them repulsive. No-boner-for-the-fatty. So … my choices are limited, right. Most middle aged women today are obese pigs. The obesity rate among single, middle aged women is incredible … my rough estimate is 80% in my area ( So … got a question for the guys here … those top 20% of females in this demographic … do you think they don’t realize that THEY HAVE IT MADE, THEY’RE SKINNY AND MEN WANT SKINNY !!!! Yeah, they have their choice of men and are picky as hell. What changes the equation ? Yeah, throw some money down. You ain’t over 6 ft tall ? Don’t spend 2 hrs a day in the gym ? Haven’t pissed your life away learning to lie, deceive, manipulate and bullshit like a used car salesman or a woman (ps, its called “game”) ? Pretty simple really. I don’t like fatties. I am not willing to do what is necessary to meet the demands of all the stuck up, entitled cunts … who really have only one thing going for them … THEY ARE NOT OBESE. So to even the odds, I put money on it. I want skinny, I get skinny. Oh … in case you are wondering my SB is 5-4, 115 lbs, 34B, with nice perky nipples. A firm ass, shaved pussy, bleached blonde … well not bleached … her stylist does it for her. Nails done. Tanned in the winter. You get the idea. She takes care of herself … my money goes for something, right ? I want skinny, I want sexy … I get that.

    Now here’s the deal. Not all SBs are created equal and I know that I got it good and don’t want to fuck it up. Believe me, the sex is pretty awesome (for both of us) and I’ve mulled it a bunch “why am I paying her when she enjoys it as much as me ???”. But I always back down, cause I realize I got it good and can afford it. And while she enjoys our relationship as much as me, she needs the money. So it works for us. Both of us. That’s what an SD/SB relationship is about; mutually beneficial relationship. That’s what its called and that’s what it is.

    One final comment: I wouldn’t say that I would choose this type of relationship … if given the choice and I cut my teeth, post divorce, on hookers … so, yeah, I know the difference !!! But the truth is … as men, we aren’t given the choice over how we’d like the world to operate. We have to deal with the situation as it exists. That’s reality. And given the current dynamic, I don’t want to get married again … even if I could find someone who is marriage-worthy. I don’t want to play the games. I’m not over 6 ft tall and good looking. So I’m using what advantages that I do have (money) to get what I want (sex) with someone I find attractive (skinny). My girl gets my attention, my sexual attention (haha, talk about an Alpha-Widow, after me this girl is warped for life), and yeah … my money. She’s a Sugar Baby … and you know what … she’s got it pretty fucking good. I do too. And that’s the point.

    1. What’s funny is that the girl in the picture I used for this post I wouldn’t rate above an HB6, but there she is. When I did my research for this essay I sifted through a great many pictures and articles and I’ll say that there are some very attractive girls (some the same calibre as my pour girls, who also do the SB thing), but the vast majority are what I’d rate as average, maybe HB5-6 range.

      And there they are. They’re not fat, but they’re the same girls who’re in the seat next to you at church or waiting your table or you see in the grocery store.

  38. Yo guys, long time no see. Been busy with life and shit.


    As Rollo rightfully states: he’s looking for femininity, for a woman to pretend to desire him and care about him. It’s more of a psychological need than it is a sexual, if it was just sexual he’d see a hooker.

    Gotta disagree here; “Sugaring” has been normalized for women amongst each other, visiting a prostitute has not for men. I suspect it’s as much a function about what’s socially acceptable vs. what can ruin your social standing. A lot of guys probably do it because they’re in a position that getting arrested would be incredibly damaging to their established lives.

    In my case I’m finding the young ones are such easy targets that I don’t need to “sugar” with even marginally decent game. In Texas 17 is the age of consent… and the last chick I fucked was a very cute petite little 17 year old chick. In fact she said she wanted to see me after getting back from whatever she’s doing this summer. We’ll see. Still very feminine, bubbly, and enjoyable. None of the usual jaded bullshit I see in women just Pre or Post Wall.

    I have utterly abandoned the over 25 dating space even though I’m 39, largely because not only are the 17-25 year olds hotter but they’re just more enjoyable. Women in that age range just react so well to even marginally acceptable Game because their male peers are such effeminate pussies. Gaming chicks right around that 20 year old range is actually fun because they accept your fun energy and reciprocate it.

    Accepting a “Sugar Baby” or “Sugar Widow” on their terms is just as Beta as being some Alpha Widow’s pre-cucked bitch. No thanks, not when they’re easier to Game than less attractive older women. The only trick I’ve found is finding good places to pull them from, but I’m getting there.

  39. @Rollo

    Yeah that was the first thing I noticed; first chick was remarkable for her completely unremarkable looks. I might Game her to talk to her hot friend, but under no circumstances would I give her more than a couple seconds consideration for a lay unless she just tossed it at me immediately. Even then she’d just be one you break the glass on in case of emergency.

  40. > But that’s a racket that will soon be up as sugar dating becomes the norm and girls figure out how to work the game and weed out “splenda” daddies like me.

    In ‘Germany, we got this

    The woman who creted this is a celebrated entrepreneur….

  41. @Rollo

    Gotcha. Just wanted you to clarify that. Given the negative connotation of opportunism it’s easier for me to associate it with BB than with AF. Tom’s response shows I’m not the only one.

    Perhaps it’s easiest to see WLO in an AF context in the War Brides scenario.

  42. @ placesundpeople

    Probably got the idea from something that’s was done 6 or 7 years ago by a man. Who looks the part.
    Girl accepts dates among guys who bid on it.

  43. Guess we done here. Again. Good luck, dudes … reality ain’t what it seems. You did take the Red pill, right ? Did you unplug? You’ve been lied too, did you know that. Lied to about everything. Learn to recognize that. And recognize the truth. Yeah, it ain’t easy … so grow the fuck up. Nobody said it was easy. You got balls, deal with it … with reality. A girl’s got a pussy so that ain’t her job (deal with reality). She wants money to make her situation easy ? You got money ? Deal with it. Learn frame control. Its real.

    Rollo … keep trying to teach … most won’t get the message but some will … those are the dudes who make it worthwhile …

  44. Perhaps this is what is causing the “herbivore” phenomenon in Japan.

    There, women as young as 13 use social media and mobile phones to meet Johns and exchange sex for cash.

    This is not only completely normalized, but accepted for the most part.

    If Japan is any case, once men wake up, they will disengage completely, and I don’t blame them.

    Japanese Men witnessed this FIRST HAND and have decided en masse to reject women.

    Japan is what happens when Open Hypergamy is unleashed and accepted for the most part.

    I strongly believe that there will not be any betas in waiting when women hit the “epiphany” stage. Christianity MIGHT have been enough to shame men into reaching their “ideal love” with a former sugar baby, however with it’s decline, there is not even a spiritual upside for acceptance.

    Just my $0.02.

  45. haha, AF/BB at its most basic in your face.

    To be sure, SD/SB have always been around in some form or other. Think somebody mentioned mistresses above, that was yesteryear’s term for it. If there’s been any change, it’s that the internet has really opened things up and pushed it above the radar into the realm of acceptability. Maybe not my acceptability, but mine doesn’t matter much, never did.

    I recall that some working girls included the acronym “GFE” in their ads. GFE = girlfriend experience, that has been around a long time, it far predates this post. Dunno if they still do, but there have always been at least some working girls who sought and/or accepted SB arrangements. Only now they’re competing with girls who would never think of themselves as hookers.

    Another take: I’ve been to Asia a few times and noticed that in some countries, the SD/SB thing has a life of its own, the locals have got it down, especially when it comes to their karaokes. Throw in the western beta boys tossing chunks of change at the lower class working girls over there and one sees these are just different representations of the same essential dynamic.

    Anyway thanks Rollo for bringing this back into the spotlight with a description of today’s social environment. Outstanding post.

  46. YaReally
    July 11th, 2016 at 6:16 pm

    “Imagine the internal “I’m the prize” value mindset you need to have to talk like this to someone offering you $20,000 lol like just “ugh, no promises, I’ll do what I want, but I’ll LET you give me $20,000 and a vacation I suppose, but my company should be enough to earn that $20,000”
    And YOU (the average dude learning game) wanna go approach a girl while you’re internally thinking “I’m a loser😦 she wouldn’t like me😦 I don’t have any value to offer her :(” This is why internal game is important lol, you need to view your value the way this chick views hers”

    Yeah, this is just an extension of a Western woman’s everyday mindset of expectation and entitlement. from the age of 15, not of full adult conscious awareness and suddenly they are getting attention and social value just for existing (i.e., growing tits), while the boys only get it for achieving something. it’s like the arrogant entitled attitude of children raised in wealthy families, that’s all they know and it’s as natural as breathing.

    it’s a relatively simple metric for success – wear nice clothes and makeup, show tits/ass/legs/ get attention and validation. the interesting thing is they really have no value that is comparable to a rich wealthy family. a man coming into his inheritance has real value. he can choose to piss it all away; a woman has no choice, it gets taken as easy as it was given.
    at least in the social media age they can leverage it.

    It took me till post 30 to be able to consistently look beyond a woman’s outer facade and not be overawed by it. Im naturally aloof and indifferent, but its only recently i can tease, prod, mock women, show value and be detached from the pussy.

    it’s interesting seeing the wheels in a woman’s head turn in situations when you are expected to acknowledge the awesome awesomeness of her pussy is not having the desired effect. A young queen bee working at my local gym (hard 10 out of this world body) gradually got increasingly miffed and then rude when i refused to acknowledge her beyond pleasantries (snooping social media she is obsessed with puppies, has extreme daddy abandonment and stalker issues). there’s almost a thought bubble above their heads, “but, but, but….pussy”). As if its sufficient to carry them forever.

    At worst I can jerk off, go on a pub crawl, tinder or go on holiday to some exotic place and be satisfied without the entanglements. I am also very forward looking and don’t see what value is offered on an ongoing basis s part of long term committment.

  47. I made fun of the RVF’ers over their gay Pokemon thread but these guys make some good points in their reports:

    For guys wanting to do Daygame esp the younger guys who grew up with Pokemon (it was just after my time for me so I know fuck all about it) it sounds like there could be a lot of potential given the dynamics of how it works. I’ll definitely be trying “Are you catching Pokemon?” out as an opener at the bars to girls with their phone out.

    Probably something that’s only going to last for the summer/fall, but that’s still a solid window of opportunity to ride the wave and rack up some poon.

    Also lol at the stories of nerds reporting sore legs from walking around in the sunshine for the first time in their lives etc This thing could help a lot of nerdy guys who WANT to get out there and socialize and make friends but don’t drink or want to go to bars. But a PUA walking into a group would instantly be the Hypergamous best option in the group to the girls and like they say in the thread Pokemon is popular enough that just from the sheer numbers involved there’s probably a lot of bangable girls into it (plus fatties are too lazy to leave their apartment and walk around VS girls using it as motivation to go for a jog/walk etc lol)

    Interesting times we live in lol

  48. I was in an American College town last year.Never in my life have I witnessed the HB7,8,9 female frenzy.The energy was electric.I’ve partied from Sydney to LA to London to Ibiza in the day.
    These American girls were all after the college athletes.Again nowhere else in the world has this sport system or school system.Its amazing in it’s scale.
    The tears and drama was something to behold.It was just all female energy.The abundance these sports guys had was amazing.The saddess was the blokes who were has beens or never made it.They actually thought they had game.
    As a non American looking at your system to me these girls were all looking for the big score not cock.Every dude was a would be millionare.Losing one of these dudes was like having the winning lottery ticket and losing it on the way to cash it in..And thats your hot yank chick.
    Sugardaddy is maybe the HB5-6’s way to get in on this game.Your school system is now breeding whores with it’s bullshit fees.I ain’t complaining.

    I’m one of those dudes that loves American women I can can score 2 points above my SMV there and 15 -20 years younger..thanks to the redpill TRM and Pua…I don’t give a shit if you believe that but with my mates we all rate yank chicks highly.The grass is always greener.

    I met alot of really good blokes in the US just out of the game brooding or seething over their beers stuck in the system.

    Anyway my mate just looked at he’s Tinder down here ,showing me hot 18 to 20 year olds pages. I count 3 saying they are up for a SB and these girls are 18.They are popping up on he’s 38 year old page.I don’t do Tinder .

  49. Jeez I haven’t even worked through the last page of comments on the last post and here we have a post on something I have a LOT of experience with.

    In a hurry but the point about how a beta provider is going to find it difficult to keep up the lifestyle expectations of a former SB is interesting – not just Alpha Widow, but also Sugar Baby Widow.

    The classic RooshV Forum thread on Instagram hookers/Tag The Sponsor (previously linked to on here by me and then Rollo wrote a post about it in relation to a comment by AnonymousBosch) is very long but it does have an interesting bit about exactly this – imagine you’re a hot girl on the far end of the curve and you’ve been a hooker/yacht girl/whatever for oil sheikhs and hung out on private yachts and private jets and free drugs as much as you want, all the shopping you can afford. If you’re clever (very few are) maybe you’ve saved $1 million by the time your “career” is effectively over at 25.

    How on earth do you adjust to being the wife of a dentist in Scarsdale, NY or similar? Like that’s a fantastic soft landing for a chick like that but it will never ever match what she had – and $1 million doesn’t last very long with those kind of tastes. It’s doubly cruel – you don’t expect the dentist to live up to her previous alphas..but he can’t live up to the Dubai sheikh lifestyle either..

    Bit of a rush so no time to dig out the link to that thread now

  50. @ Hank holiday
    Why do you insist on posting your boring long ass field reports that are totally unrelated on every topic?
    I don’t give a fuck about your good mall/bad mall bullshit.
    Start your own blog if you feel the need to drone on I’m fed up of having to scroll through your tedious ramblings.

  51. “How on earth do you adjust to being the wife of a dentist in Scarsdale, NY or similar? Like that’s a fantastic soft landing for a chick like that but it will never ever match what she had – and $1 million doesn’t last very long with those kind of tastes.”

    For the “win” they become trophies

    Married to billionaire Jets owner Woody Johnson, 20 years her senior, the 46-year-old former financier Suzanne Ircha has a degree from Cornell University and made her first million by age 26.

    Daily Beast a few years ago about russian women stalking the Hamptons for investment bankers. This recent article about a sex party mentioned them, but the writer couldn’t get close to talk:

  52. @mad max

    I strongly believe that there will not be any betas in waiting when women hit the “epiphany” stage.

    If there is one thing that is common between the marriage strike folk (men will boycott marriage) and the marriage lockout idea (yareally’s post-wall women will mine sexless betas for resources) is that there will be no divorce rape, and that’s cool.

  53. That article was the most complicated piece of mental gymnastics I’ve read in a long time. You think you’ve read it all, then something new comes along and blows your mind all over again.

    The hamstering of the female mind knows no bounds.

  54. SUN!!!!!!!

    Man, I can’t tell you how good it is to see your icon posting up.

    Missed you something awful.

    Welcome back!!!!!

  55. “It took me till post 30 to be able to consistently look beyond a woman’s outer facade and not be overawed by it” Being able to not be swayed or lured by the siren call of sex/pussy is a true measure of a man’s maturity. It’s more than just having abundance mentality; it’s having your own internal focus and guide that may allow a woman to share in it or not.

  56. @Rollo, great post. Gives me more to think about as I contemplate how to tell my young daughter about the birds and the bees in future.

    P.S. Can you hit up your introductory clauses with some commas, man! Why you against the comma, bro. (Just ribbin’ ya)

    @YaReally, didn’t think about that aspect of Pokemon. I think besides that though, it’s just a crap sandwich making zombies out of human minds. Sad to see these people walking around all day like that.

  57. Welp, on the bright side it cant get much worse. I guess you could say it’s a good thing that society is better reflecting human nature. Once we (men) start to take power back it will be on a super strong foundation because there’ll be no more tricks to pull. The FI is painting itself into a corner, because once hypergamy is completely freed and open and normalized everyone will be red pill…. And the pendulum will swing back.

  58. being a whore used to be a very dangerous profession.

    now whores have the police state as their pimp. the danger is gone. all that’s left is the reward of travel and mass produced trinkets

    the problem also extends to the top 10% Chads, as even though they won’t pay and do generate genuine desire, they too are banging whores

    and should they decide to knock one up, their daughters will be raised to be whores

    pussy is a commodity and in finally recognizing this fact, rape should be reduced from a felony punishable by incareration to misdemeanor theft punishable by fine

  59. Sun

    “The only trick I’ve found is finding good places to pull them from, but I’m getting there.”

    Come now… they are all around you…

    Every college campus is packed out with young, attractive girls… Hit up all the coffee shops and smoothy places by day… ones close to yoga places are prime.

    What do they want?

  60. This is just BB on steroids. Alphas are on tinder getting this same girls pussies for free.

    Any guy considering these apps should just use tinder, show their wealth without promising giving any money, and then pump and dump. Record everything as anti-false-rape-claim safety.

  61. @rollo

    I have used sa for the last couple months and I would have to agree with the attractiveness rating. That’s my problem with it, they are not even that hot.

    One caveat though, I suspect the more attractive women hide their profile and selectively reach out to the men they like. Even on sa the attractive women are bombarded with a huge amount of messages and probably have to use this method to screen.

  62. @Sun Wukong

    “I have utterly abandoned the over 25 dating space…..

    Gaming chicks right around that 20 year old range is actually fun because they accept your fun energy and reciprocate it.”

    You sound like you dragged yourself through that long dark tunnel of grief.

    Also looks like you “know thyself” better ( Delphic Greek Maxim).


    Welcome back, man. I’m glad you ain’t dead yet. (your ghosting kind of scared some of us. The last time we talked, after a round table session, your last resigned sigh was actually kinda scary sounding, Lol….)

    You were missed. Be well and have fun.

  63. Culum

    “How on earth do you adjust to being the wife of a dentist in Scarsdale, NY or similar?”

    How? She looks in the mirror… For all the animus directed at women for being beautiful and leveraging their beauty, their attitude etc.

    Believe me… SHE knows every defect she has… she knows every wrinkle… she knows exactly how she stacks up to younger girls… Now she may not want to acknowledge this publicly or let YOU know… but she knows…

    and in this nest of insecurity the seeds of great game are planted.

    Pity a woman… she is a suicide bomber… time tick o’tocking away every single day until the inevitable BOOM! event… just doesn’t know exactly when that will be just that it WILL be…

    Man, that kind of pressure will make you crazy, right?

  64. A man once asked “How do you go bankrupt” and a wiser man said “slowly… for a long… time then all of a sudden”…

  65. This is too good. Buried in chasing electrical gremlins…damn.

    But I gotta implore once more: guys, control yourselves with regards to the Hot Young Chicks narrative. For Christ sakes!!!

    Hot. Young.

    Never an excuse to get all ramped up and hyper. Get your shit under control and get the proper perspective. They are just girls!!!! There’s billions of them on the planet.

    C’mon think!!!

    PEDESTALize no chick for any reason. this is what’s driving this whoredom in the first place.

    I get a little queazy with every gush over the hawt babe.

    Fuck them. Lol, literally. stop praising them.

    I’ll be back…like an old T1000. But for now, fuck sugar babies.. for free ( wear condom because these hoes sound a bit nasty… don’t blind yourself into a hawt case of herpes…lmao…. BITCHES )

  66. The SD/SB stuff is refreshingly honest. My favorite part, tho, is the attempt by other females policing the FI and shifting the blame to men by positing that SB’s are really just being exploited, as if these young women didn’t know exactly what they were doing.

  67. “How do you go bankrupt” and a wiser man said “slowly… for a long… time then all of a sudden”…”

    The trick is being in the morgue an hour before the receiver knows you’re dead.

  68. Well, it might be a good thing for women to truly know their SMV. Wonder if the OP opener ever got her SD?

  69. @Blaximus

    THANK YOU lol

    It always make me cringe when guys on here spend a whole paragraph describing their girl’s tits

  70. The real skill in Alpha is getting girls to do things or give you stuff. I’m now at the point where girls are sending me hot selfies, wanting to cook for me, wanting to hang with me, etc etc.

    I now find myself becoming much more selective.

    This Sugar Baby “phenomenon” is men falling into the role that women should be playing—chasing, paying for attention.

    This idea of having a concubine is no guarantee of exclusivity or instant gratification. It’s an addiction in the same way guys are addicted to porn sites or online gambling.

    The transactional nature of Sugar Babies taps into a deep longing on the part of a certain type of man who feels power through money…or gifts.

    At the lower end of this is the needy Beta who rushes over to fix a girl’s computer. At the high end it’s pay for play and the “girlfriend experience”.

    I see this all the time—the dumpy loser with the hot girl and the economic disparity and age gap between them is obvious. But he’s saved up enough to be able to afford this “lifestyle”.

    Hypergamy supercedes any other forms of “value” demonstration. You can pay and have a kept woman. But when you’re away what have you really got? All these girls lump every guy they meet into either lover or provider. The provider relationship will always remain transactional and negotiated.

    I knew of a very attractive woman who was a Sugar Baby….though she was not young. The Sugar Daddy was an extremely wealthy and well-connected guy. She kept lamenting how he wouldn’t marry her. The ultimate transaction. He was keen to keep inserting coins into this slut machine for the easy pay-off and it gave him a certain “control”.

  71. @Rollo ““People are People and everyone is special” or some variation of the nebulous individual’s uniqueness needing to be held as the benchmark for each case of ‘value’ are the common refrains. Even denying an observable, measurable marketplace altogether for fear of being ‘judgemental’ is part of the Red Pill critic’s predictable counter to the idea of a sexual marketplace.”

    I wholeheartedly agree. Fear of competition and a personal sense of inadequacy are the primary motivators of this “everyone is special” mentality. It provides “hope” against “cruel” reality. Nature, life itself ensures its continuence by competition, eliminating weak and atypical unsuccessful aberrations. Those who wish for universal equanimity are fooling themselves. They hope to avoid effort and personal performance. Their hope is to unify a large enough group to end competition itself because they fear they cannot compete or are unwilling to apply themselves. The promotion of this dynamic exists not only in the sexual market place but also in the economic, political and all other social market places. It is promoted anywhere there is competition. An irony pervades as the promoters of this are selling a fallacy to achieve dominance and power over those who are fool,enough to buy into it.

  72. “Men love idealistically”

    I believe this is true, but only for men who,have not fully accepted the red pill.

    Each woman is a potential opportunity, some desirable, some not. What man would not accept the opportunity to mate with a younger more desirable female than one he is currently legally and socially handcuffed to? What man does not fantasize about such opportunities? Women come and go in a man’s life. Some age out, some get fat, some die, some are discovered to be less agreeable than assumed. Be honest and consider what is going on in the mind of a man, your mind. Why does this blog and the manosphere exist other than mans desire to improve his opportunities? What man isn’t always at least thinking about improving his sex life and upgrading or exploring options….various opportunities.

  73. Eat. Pray. Love… Divorce: What happens when the romance that inspired thousands to find their own happy ever after comes to a bubble-popping end?

    Eat Pray Love author Elizabeth Gilbert has just announced she has separated from husband Jose Nunes after 12 years together

    Ten years ago, Eat Pray Love became the romance of the decade

    It told the story of Gilbert, who embarked on a journey of self-discovery

    Read more:

  74. When the ideal is in conflict with the real, there is a problem.

    Respect reality, consider ideology with skepticism.

  75. @Sentient

    Like I said: I’m getting there. 😉

    @Blax @SJF

    Heh, yeah life and work went in to asses and elbows time so I had to go do that. Good news is that I blew away the last of my debts, picked up the new camera I’d been wanting to snag for a couple years, and grabbed a used enduro bike to take with me living on the road for a couple years. Planning to load that and the Triumph I already had in to a toy hauler in 11 months and head out for a couple years. Now just need to find said hauler and a truck for under 20k or so…

  76. But Rollo, she”s ” young ” and ” tight “, and if a man were ” honest ” ( lol ), there’s no rejection possible. No man can resist youth. Especially older men. You’re not talking advantage of an evidently weak and helpless client base.


  77. @Rollo: “She wouldn’t even register for my notice”

    She is what I have referred to here as a “bollard.”
    I’d notice her to the extent that I would have to avoid running into her.

  78. Bollard…. Lol

    See her in her 5.6 glory… Note the roundness of face and thickness of upper arm…

    Hear the tick tick tock of the ticking bomb clock…

    1. @YaReally, have you been reading the anti-gay tweets Matt Forney’s been getting his click-bait fix with recently?

      Basically he’s taking Milo Yiannopolous to task for being a false-flag alt-right gay degenerate.

      Someone who isn’t me needs to link him the pictures of Roosh having dinner with him in London while he was on tour last year. Entertaining.

  79. I love how “red pill” guys are shocked, shocked, by this shit.

    you guys need to lose this ‘purity of white women’ trope. they’re laughing at you for it.

    i mean, think about it….first and foremost, hot young pussy is in high demand by men everywhere. second, hot young white pussy is a status symbol par excellence in the U.S.

    that = $$$$$$$$$$$$$

    and like…lol, yeah man….truly hot chicks, the true 8+ chicks inhabit a world that you SIMPLY DO NOT.

    But before I run away, the biggest thing to discuss in my mind in 2016 isn’t the sugar daddies that are actually GETTING sex. That shit’s been around forever.

    this is key.

    I mean, I always say that there are multiple ways to get pussy, and money is one of them. And some guys are like ‘naaah dude, that’s not REAL desire…’


    yeah man, if you’re spending $$$$$ to ALTER your environment and make you the center of the world, YES, that is building desire. why? because you’re just essentially paying everyone off to serve you and gain dominance lol.

    the problem is that most dudes don’t have this type of $$$$.

    like if you’re a billionaire or whatever and this shit is just chump change, fuck man, why not? easy as fuck.

    Yes, it’s just prostitution by another name. Yes, there is a pop-culture effort to normalize what would otherwise be a manipulative exploitation of men – but who cares, right?

    I meaaaan….

    …as a guy you’re always paying for it, so w/e. whether it’s your time, your attention, etc…you’re paying for it. even dudes with sky high passive value paid for it….but they just won the random lottery of born into a culture that associates their particular look with a shitload of positive traits.

    manipulative exploitation?

    lol nah.

    men want pussy.

    and they want it bad.

    so making a group pay — in whatever way — for something they want seems fair to me.

    it’s nothing personal and it’s all value exchange.

    “It’s like hooking has just become like this weird, distorted extension of dating,” the D.J. says. “ ‘He took me to dinner. He throws me money for rent’—it’s just become so casual. I think it’s dating apps—when sex is so disposable, if it doesn’t mean anything, then why not get paid for it? But don’t call it prostitution—no, now it’s liberation.”

    honestly, the dating apps have just shined a light on shit that already existed.

    and yeah, now most of the female world can partake.

    idk i can’t deal with this ‘my pretty pure womenzzzz, whyyyyy’ shit. i get that a lot of dudes in the prior generation were brought up that way, just like this generation is gonna grow up with ‘give MONEY AND RESOURCES to women DIRECTLY WITH NO QUID PRO QUO.’

    but, i mean… everything else in ‘muricuh, it’s a shit test.

  80. Illimitable man brings up a salient point, namely that this transaction isn’t a transaction at all. The sugar babies are doing exactly what any other woman would do here. Give the minimal amount of affection to avhieve the maximum amount of resources. It takes away the fair, transactional nature of the girlfriend experience

    Even feigned femininity is better than a nagging loneliness in marriage

    If that doesn’t give you pause, it should. It hits me like a ton of bricks. I won’t fault women for employing strategy to get what they desire. I will fault men for hamstringing themselves. Hamstringing by this horrible attempt at doing the same. If this were a transactional affair, the men would be holding these girls to task. Granted, if they were, then they wouldn’t need them, they would have the skills to have this without the upfront price tag. Sure, feminine behaviours are becoming rarer, consider the masculine ones that are enabling it. The Beige Phillip rule seems apt here. Women are as shity as the men they are reflecting. Or as Archwinger puts it, women are as shitty as you let them be.

    Depending on what kind of man you are, you can see sugar babies in one of two ways. The first, is the decline of femininity, and mourn for it. The other? angry at the lack of masculinity, and a call to task.

  81. @scary

    I love how “red pill” guys are shocked, shocked, by this shit.

    you guys need to lose this ‘purity of white women’ trope. they’re laughing at you for it.

    Are you confusing this with another site. The only person talking about white is Hank in his FR, which is not about sugar tits. Nobody is talking about purity. We are talking about hoes, prostitutes, hookers, gfe, sex for money.

    Please quote windmills you are tilting at, or go back to writing about the best way to game in a mall.

  82. Are you confusing this with another site. The only person talking about white is Hank in his FR, which is not about sugar tits. Nobody is talking about purity. We are talking about hoes, prostitutes, hookers, gfe, sex for money.
    Please quote windmills you are tilting at, or go back to writing about the best way to game in a mall.

    blah blah blah i don’t have time to explain all the social conditioning layers beneath layers that gives rise to these feelings.

    here’s a hint tho, check out the pics posted here….they’re of young, innocent looking white chicks.


    and you’re so spun out you’re like ‘WE’RE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THAT, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE WHORES who are hoes/prostitutes/hookers/gfe/sex for money, NOT THE PURE MADONNAS YOU FOOL!’

    fucker. they’re all the same. embrace it.
    the only one tilting at windmills is you but you don’t even know it.
    points for saying please, but the answer is nah…

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