Idealism

 

idealism

When Neil Strauss was writing The Game there was an interesting side topic he explored towards the end of the book. He became concerned that the guys who were learning PUA skills and experiencing such success with women of a calibre they’d never experienced before would turn into what he called “Social Robots.” The idea was one that these formerly Game-less guys would become Game automatons; mouthing the scripts, acting out the behaviors and meeting any countermanding behaviors or scripts from women with calculated and planned “if then” contingencies.

The fear was that these Social Robots “weren’t themselves”, they were what Mystery Method, Real Social Dynamics, etc. were programing them to be and the relative success they experienced only reinforces that “robot-ness”. My experience with guys from this blog, SoSuave and other forums has been entirely different. If anything most men transitioning to a Red Pill mindset tenaciously cling to the ‘Just Be Yourself and the right girl will come along’ mentality.

A strong resistance guys have to Red Pill awareness will always be the “faking it” and keeping it up effort they believe is necessary to perpetuate some nominal success with women. They don’t want to indefinitely be someone they’re not. It’s not genuine to them and either they feel slighted for having to be an acceptable character for women’s intimate attention or they come to the conclusion that it’s impossible to maintain ‘the act’ indefinitely. Either way there’s a resentment that stems from needing to change themselves for a woman’s acceptance – who they truly are should be enough for the right woman.

I’ve written more than a few essays about this dynamic and the process of internalizing Red Pill awareness and Game, but what I want to explore here is the root idealism men retain and rely on when it comes to their unconditioned Game. In truth this Game is very much the result of the conditioning of the Feminine Imperative, but the idealistic concept of love that men hold fast to is what makes that conditioning so effective.

What’s Your Game?

I’ve written before that every man has a Game. No matter who the guy is, no matter what his culture or background, every guy has some concept of what he believes is the best, most appropriate, most effective way to approach, interact with and progress to intimacy with a woman. How effective that “Game” really is is subjective, but if you asked any guy you know how best to go about getting a girlfriend he’ll explain his Game to you.

Men in a Blue Pill mindset will likely parrot back what their feminine-primary conditioning had him internalize. Just Be Yourself, treat her with respect, don’t objectify her, don’t try to be someone you’re not, are just a few of the conventions you’ll get from a Blue Pill guy who is oblivious to the influence the Feminine Imperative has had on what he believes are his own ideas about how best to come to intimacy with a woman.

For the most part his beliefs in his methodology are really the deductive conclusions he’s made by listening to the advice women have told him about how best to “treat a woman” if he wants to get with her. A Blue Pill mindset is characterized by identifying with the feminine, so being false is equated with anything counter to that identification.

When you dissect it, that conditioned Blue Pill / Beta Game is dictated by the need for accurate evaluation of men’s Hypergamous potential for women. Anything that aids in women’s evaluating a man’s hypergamous potential to her is a tool for optimizing Hypergamy. The dynamics of social proof and pre-selection are essentially shortcuts women’s subconscious uses to consider men’s value to her. Likewise the emphasis Blue Pill Game places on men’s ‘genuineness’ is a feminine conditioning that serves much the same purpose – better hypergamous evaluation. If men can be conditioned to be up front about who they are and what they are, if they internalize a mental point of origin that defers by default to feminine primacy, and if they can be socially expected to default to full and honest disclosure with women by just being themselves, this then makes a woman’s hypergamous evaluation of him that much more efficient.

This is where most Blue Pill men fail in their Game; who they are is no mystery, their deference and respect is worthless because it’s common and unmerited, and just who he is isn’t the character she wants him to play with her.

So even in the best of Blue Pill circumstances, a man is still playing at who he believes will be acceptable to the feminine. His genuineness is what best identifies with the feminine. Blue Pill / Beta Game is really an even more insidious version of social robotics; the script is internalized, the act is who he is. However, it’s important to consider that this genuineness is still rooted in his idealistic concept of a mutual and reciprocal love.

From Of Love and War:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to.

In The Burden of  Performance I made the case for men’s need to perform for feminine acceptance and how men’s idealistic concept of love centers not on a want for unconditional love, but rather a love free from the performance requirements women’s opportunistic, Hypergamous, concept of love demands of him. This quote sums up that idealistic want for rest from having to perform to earn a woman’s love and acceptance.

The problem of course is the supposition that a performanceless love would ever really be love, but men’s idealistic nature still believes that the state is realizable. On a social scale the Feminine Imperative sees the resource utility in this and so encourages the idea that both men and women mutually share his concept of idealized love. Thus men, unaware of the respective differences in concepts both sexes hold with regard to love, enter into a perpetual state of qualifying for a love they believe women should be capable of. Men will work hard, build empires and amass fortunes to come to that state of performanceless rest they idealize should be possible with a woman.

The Marriage of Idealism and Opportunism

About two weeks ago I was called to the carpet in the commentary by George Weeks (a.k.a. Not Born This Morning, one of many aliases) for what he believes was an inconsistency in my assessment of men’s idealistic concept of love and how that idealism is really symbiotic with women’s opportunistic concept of love. I’ll spare you his autistic attention trolling, but he did raise a few points I do need to clarify about how men and women’s separate, but purpose driven, concepts of love developed.

From Intersexual Hierarchies:

In the beginning of this series I stated that men and women’s approach to love was ultimately complementary to one another and in this last model we can really see how the two dovetail together. That may seem a bit strange at this point, but when social influences imbalance this conventional complement we see how well the two come together.

When a woman’s opportunistic approach to love is cast into the primary, dominant love paradigm for a couple, and a family, that pairing and family is now at the mercy of an opportunism necessitated by that woman’s hypergamy and the drive to optimize it. Conversely, when a man’s idealistic approach to love is in the dominant frame (as in the conventional model) it acts as a buffer to women’s loving opportunism that would otherwise imbalance and threaten the endurance of that family and relationship.

From Heartiste’s post:

7. Arguments about chores, money, sex life, and romance were highest in couples where the woman made all or most of the decisions. Female decision-making status was an even stronger determinant of relationship dissatisfaction than female breadwinner status. Women can handle making more money in a relationship, but they despise being the leader in a relationship.

8. Argument frequency decreased among female breadwinners if they were not the primary decision-makers. Lesson for men: You can have a happy relationship with a woman who makes more than you as long as you remain the dominant force in her non-work life. Or: GAME SAVES MARRIAGES.

When a woman’s love concept is the dominant one, that relationship will be governed by her opportunism and the quest for her hypergamic optimization. The ultimate desired end of that optimization is a conventional love hierarchy where a dominant Man is the driving, decisive member of that sexual pairing.

This was the meat of George’s confusion. As with the opportunism that Hypergamy predisposes women to, men’s idealistic concept of love stems from his want for genuineness and a want for what could be. I’d suggest that men’s idealism is the natural extension of the burden of performance. From a Beta perspective, one where women are his mental point of origin, that burden is an unfair yoke; one to be borne out of necessity and ideally cast off if he could change the game. To the Alpha who makes himself his mental point of origin, that burden is a challenge to be overcome and to strengthen oneself by. In either respect, both seek an idealistically better outcome than what that burden represents to them.

In and of itself, a man’s idealism can be a source of strength or his greatest weakness. And while unfettered Hypergamic opportunism has been responsible for many of women’s worst atrocities to men, in and of itself Hypergamy is the framework in which the human species has evolved. Neither is good nor bad, but become so in how they are considered and how they are applied.

Men’s idealistic concept of love is a buffer against women’s opportunistic concept of love. When that idealism is expressed from a Beta mindset women’s opportunism dominates him and it’s debilitating. When it’s expressed from an Alpha mindset it supersedes her opportunism to the relationship’s benefit.

Conditioned Idealism

If you want to use Blue Valentine (the movie) as an example, the guy in the relationship abdicates all authority and ambition over to his wife’s opportunism. He idealistically believes “love is all that matters” and has no greater ambition than to please her and ‘just be himself’, because his conditioning has taught him that should be enough. His Beta conditioning convinced his idealism that his wife would shared in that idealistic concept of love in spite of his absence of performance. Consequently she despises him for it. She’s the de facto authority in the relationship and he slips into the subdominant (another child to care for) role.

Now if a man’s Alpha, willful, idealism propels him to greater ambition, and to prioritize his concept of love as the dominant, and places himself as his mental point of origin for which a woman accepts you can see how this leads to the conventional model. His idealism is enforced by how he considers it and how he applies it.

Men’s idealistic concept of love can be the worst debilitation in a man’s life when that idealistic nature is expressed from a supplicating Beta mentality. It will crush him when that idealism is all about a bill of goods he idealistically hopes a woman shares and will reciprocate with. This is predominantly how we experience idealism in our present cultural environment of feminized social primacy.

From an Alpha perspective that idealism is a necessary buffer against that same feminine opportunistic concept of love that would otherwise tear a Beta apart.

There was a time when men’s idealistic concept of love was respected above the opportunistic (Hypergamy based) concept of love. I explored this social control of Hypergamy in Women Behaving Badly.

Under the old set of books, when men’s attractiveness (if not arousal) was based on his primary provisioning role his love-idealism defined the intergender relationship. Thus, we still have notions of chivalry, traditional romance, conventional models of a love hierarchy, etc. These are old books ideals, and the main reason I’ve always asserted that men are the True Romantics is due exactly to this love-idealism.

There was a time when men’s idealistic love concept pushed him to achievements that had social merit and were appreciated. Ovid, Shakespeare and the Beatles would not be the human icons they are if that idealism weren’t a driving force in men and society. Likewise, women’s opportunistic, hypergamy-based concept of love, while cruel in its extreme, has nonetheless been a driving motivation for men’s idealistic love as well as a filter for sexual selection.

Under the new set of books, in a feminine-centric social order, the strengths of that male idealism, love honor and integrity are made to serve the purpose of the Feminine Imperative. Men’s idealistic love becomes a liability when he’s conditioned to believe that women share that same idealism, rather than hold to an opportunistic standard. This is what we have today with generations of men conditioned and feminized for identifying with the feminine. These are the generations of men who were conditioned to internalize the equalist lie that men and women are the same and all is relative. From that perspective it should follow that both sexes would share a mutual concept of love – this is the misunderstanding that leads men to expect their idealism to be reciprocated and thus leads to their exploitation and self-abuse.

A man’s idealism becomes his liability when he enters a woman’s opportunistic frame still believing they both share a mutual concept of love.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Saki
Guest
Saki

Great article as always.

” If anything most men transitioning to a Red Pill mindset tenaciously cling to the ‘Just Be Yourself and the right girl will come along’ mentality.”

I didn’t cling to it, but it sure was unpleasant to let go of. I can certainly understand why people want to keep believing it, to their own detriment.

Found a little thing for you to fix.

“However, it’s important consider that this genuineness is still rooted in his idealistic concept of a mutual and reciprocal love.”

Missing a *to* between important and consider.

D. Horrenbrand
Guest

Great one as always.

We cannot change nature of women, but we can work on ourselves. Also current society is based on primal drives- advertisement everywhere is bombarding us (men) with sex and content related to it. Women themselves got much more options (males) to choose from. Yet, as usually with any kind of abundance they became over-satiated instead of appreciative…

Regards,
__
Datson H.
https://redmalehummingbird.wordpress.com/

rugby11ljh
Guest
rugby11ljh

Well said the movie had the word blue in it.

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[…] two books The Rational Male Volume 1 and The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine Volume 2. Rollo Tomassi has now written the ultimate post: Idealism. Its content is going to transform millions of men’s lives. They are smart of course, but they […]

Stefan
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Stefan

Excellent article Rollo. Would still love to connect for a personal consultation.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

Rollo, you are so far out ahead I now can appreciate the generosity it trekkers for you to turn around and spell this out.

it must be like a virtuoso musician teaching someone that’s never held a violin

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

The irony that those that dread what they perceive being red pill as a constant exertion and faking it, are probably the ones who most tried the just tell me what you want and I’ll do it, but ended up dreading the frustration that it led to. To them red pillness is not being them, but resorting to the just tell me appeal is asking a woman to tell them to be something that they’re not. Another part of it is men having more of a general liking for women that goes against so much media messaging that they here… Read more »

Allen
Guest
Allen

“treat her with respect, don’t objectify her,” I would say this is where I went wrong with every woman I have ever been with. I’ve seen other guys pull hot chicks doing the opposite of that quote enough times to know it is complete bullshit.

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

Also, since there’s so much discussion on society being feminized I wanted to ask you Rollo about when you started letting your kid go around the neighborhood on her own. Came across an article about parents in Maryland that had CPS charge them with neglect because they let their 6yr old daughter, together with their 10yr old son, walk by themselves back and forth from a local park to their home. The father’s name sounds like he’s Russian or Ukrainian, don’t know about the mother. The article made me think about all the blog posts I’ve come across about eastern… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

And now I just clicked on the link to the Daily Mail article about the married woman jailer who got caught banging the inmate in jail for attempted rape in a supply closet and claims that it wasn’t her fault. He seduced her.

singlemalt
Guest
singlemalt

“We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while. We want to, so badly. If we do, we soon are no longer able to.” I have found that I must be on… Read more »

thedeclineandfall
Guest

I read that article Water Canon Boy. A man convicted of rape pulled a married prison guard as a plate. I bet the husband’s idealism about marriage is gone now.

There is an opportunity for him to recover however. Hopefully he get tested for STD’s and then divorces her cheating ass. She put herself in a position of legal weakness; he simply needs to pull the trigger and win that divorce.

Exactly what Rollo has been saying; you can’t relax, stop game, or let your frame slip in marriage.

Tilikum
Guest

I think it’s simpler than that.

Men search for the unconditional love they thought they were getting from their mother, and must internalize that its not any more possible to get there with his own mother much less a partner.

Brain chemistry goes into protect mode and psychology kicks in with some form of Madonna/whore.

The reality is that very few of us men are strong enough to live essentially alone and independent. Women know this and skillfully exploit it, thats all. No need to let it frustrate you.

Mr T.
Guest
Mr T.

In a recent zoological scientific study (I don’t have the link) showed that most donkeys believed they were being idealistically loved for who they are rather than what they do.

Ps
Another great post.

Driver
Guest
Driver

Good stuff here as always.

I found another example of a movie for you to use for discussion on Beta behavior. It’s called The Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.

It, like Blue Valentine, shows how Beta behavior (and the concept he holds as love) can tear him apart by “just being himself”, not having ambition and only existing to please her.

It is a must watch movie for all of those men transitioning over from blue to red.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

I contend that as long as the FI is the dominant social schema in the West, that the “transition” from blue pill to red is NEVER over. It’s a constant process, even if–as Rollo posits–it becomes an effortless mindset. Any intentional mindset requires perpetual maintenance in the face of the never ending stream of stimuli and random circumstance that life presents. I really don’t believe the “effortless” part. Maybe less work over time, but the job is never over. That’s a conceit that causes so many marrieds to slip into BP hell. Maybe a topic for the next RM essay:… Read more »

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

Now I’m just waiting for Rollo or someone else to post 3 links saying, “already covered that topic.”

Striver
Guest
Striver

Instead of gaming the “wife” (in quotes because the designation is a joke with the legions of whores today), why not go the other way and ignore her completely. I mean, if you’re actually going to get married, knock her up a couple of times, but why put any effort into the marriage after that. I don’t think gaming can really eliminate frivorce, so why spend the time? Be idealistic about something else. Read a bio on John Wayne recently. Wayne was an alpha, but did not really have game. Had three marriages and they didn’t work out. First one… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

I’m not seeing the nihilism in idealism. An idealist should shoot for being two standard of deviations beyond the mean. Or at the minimum one. Don’t be the the average in the ideocracy. Average=AFC. I see the fallacy all the time. If you can’t shoot for the two standard deviations above the mean on the bell curve, then all you efforts won’t be satisfactory as far as idealism goes. I’ve mentioned once or twice too often the MBTI. It isn’t valid in a world where people are average. It only is valid when people are polar in their ways of… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

Striver “Instead of gaming the “wife” (in quotes because the designation is a joke with the legions of whores today), why not go the other way and ignore her completely. I mean, if you’re actually going to get married, knock her up a couple of times, but why put any effort into the marriage after that. I don’t think gaming can really eliminate frivorce, so why spend the time? Be idealistic about something else.” It’s not a joke where I live in a community where 1 out of 18 marriages end in divorce, 1 out of 50 houses ended up… Read more »

447
Guest
447

“Gaming the wife: Some of us got married in the 90’s. Me, Rollo, and Ian Ironwood. Not a travesty. Define yourself. Know your strengths and weakness. Maximize the former and minimize the latter. Be your best actualized self without fear of your weaknesses. Be a man that other man would perceive as good at being a man. Then women would take more interest as you become a better man. Game is not about tricking others. It is about being a better man, father to your sons, husband to your wife, boyfriend to your girlfriend, etc.” –> I have difficulties understanding… Read more »

Matt
Guest
Matt

Rollo, have you ever written anything on how society treats men who undergo say a hair transplant surgery vs. women who get breast implants. Basically, it appears that a man is vilified for trying to alter his natural, genetic state, while women are pretty much given a free pass when it comes to cosmetic improvement. I guess it just comes down to the fact that hypergamy hates to be tricked.

Water Cannon Boy
Guest
Water Cannon Boy

He has written about that. At least in some degree. Men must stand by their word, while a woman has a right to change her mind. It’s still part of women’s desire to optimize their choice and sexual urgency and one way to do that is to minimize a man’s choice. Shame men from doing things that can be seen as artificial so that she can be sure that what she gets as her most optimized choice really is her most optimized. So the specific topic of hair transplant may not be there, but the principle and concepts are. He’s… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

I just had an epiphany. Rollo is peddling nothing more than traditionalist horseshit wrapped up in high falutin’ manospheric language. This article? It’s essentially “man the fuck up or shut up and continue to be a pussy loser”. I mean, what is it you are really saying here, Rollo? What is the formula for a good life for a man? Marry a virgin in her early 20s. Become very successful financially so you can play provider well Find a woman who will agree at some level to play a traditional female role Don’t ever have any setbacks in life Don’t… Read more »

walawala
Guest
walawala

Great post. There is a side of me that sometimes thinks…”I wish I didn’t “need” game to get girls.” But that’s like saying I wish I didn’t need to speak to communicate. No one is a natural communicator, it takes years of practice to be a good public speaker, or a musician or good at languages. The understanding of game is really re-programming your way of thinking and how you perceive the world. Do you perceive if from the woman’s point of view and pedestalize? Or do you take it from the “Masculine imperative” and take charge? It’s a choice.… Read more »

Lucky White Male
Guest
Lucky White Male

Glenn @ anger stage of accepting Red Pill

don’t wish it was easier wish you were better

Divided Line
Guest

Legalize and regulate prostitution. Abolish marriage and child support. Gender war ends. Men win. It’s just time to drop the pretense and bullshit. There just isn’t any point in doing all this. Women are not capable of empathy, genuine intimacy, or love. So even if you successfully game her and her desire is genuine, what is it really worth? She’s a sociopathic overgrown child, one who will rationalize reasons to destroy your life on a whim should she get bored, so why does her opinion of you even matter? There’s no real connection between the two of you, so what… Read more »

Divided Line
Guest

@ Lucky White Male

Better at what?

alpha seed
Guest
alpha seed

Hi Rollo. Can you post your thoughts on the sexual double standard… the ‘master key is a good key, but a lock that is opened by many keys is just a shitty lock’. My friend yesterday said that, it is the same thing for men and women. That the fact that i have a few girls at once is just as bad a woman sleeping around/being a slut. (spin plates) He basically said that woman should be able to act like men sexually and that is acceptable. Do you agree? Is a man to accept that his eventual partner may… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

@Glenn, I don’t see Rollo as advocating for Traditionalism. It may look a bit like it, but to me there is one big difference. What I get out of this is to drop the idealism. Steel your heart, because you know that every woman you are ever with is going to eventually cut your heart out if something goes wrong. A traditional guy will be destroyed by that because he hung on to his idealism. A red pill guy will simply understand it is the nature of what we face. Like it or not, men are born with a hardwired… Read more »

Excalibur
Guest
Excalibur

@Divided Line @8:39: I second that comment. Damn straight. To all men, what exactly do you think is the “prize” that you oh, so desire and work so hard for (game)? I have promiscuous guy friends and quite often they regale me of their dalliances and all of their associated problems that these women always bring. Dealing with these women can be legally, financially and emotionally lethal to a man, much more so than you think. Men improve and build themselves up for what? To be a prop in a womans’ life? Well, that’s what you really are. Improve yourself… Read more »

girlwithadragonflytattoo
Guest

Wow Glen… you just proved my post I JUST finished writing this morning.

http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/03/21/awards-achievements-actions-to-help-others-no-one-cares/

Excalibur
Guest
Excalibur

Thugtician Wisdom on relationships:

Lucky White Male
Guest
Lucky White Male

This is very interesting. Alpha Fux Beta Bux dichotomy and other issues touched on in Rollo’s work –

1. Porn star Kortney Kane:

http://www.pornhub.com/pornstar/kortney-kane

2. The ” real life” Kortney Kane, age 29, looking to cash in for a Beta Hubby (Porn stars can’t last much past age 30):

https://instagram.com/lil_miss_hk/

In the second, skim through and read some of the quotes. You will see every woman’s rationalizations about who she was, who she wants to be and the type of man she is suddenly now entitled to…

I wish her luck

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“Hold your horses pardner.” No one is advocating to wait to find a unicorn and marry her or have a LTR. Life and society has changed. Look at a wikipedia syopsis of the movie “Idiocracy” if you haven’t seen the movie (not worth watching except for the first 15 minutes) or read Aaron Cleary’s “Enjoy the Decline”. Society got fat and complacent and is in decline. 25 years ago it was still worth marrying and sure maybe some of us found a unicorn. Or maybe we kept frame and have skills to hold someone we still find better than another… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ GWDT You might appreciate this zen koan, “The Giver Should Be Thankful.” While Seisetsu was the master of Engaku in Kamakura he required larger quarters, since those in which he was teaching were overcrowded. Umezu Seibei, a merchant of Edo, decided to donate five hundred pieces of gold, called ryo, toward the construction of a more commodious school. This money he brought to the teacher. Seisetsu said: “All right. I will take it.” Umezu gave Seisetsu the sack of gold, but he was dissatisfied with the attitude of the teacher. One might live a whole year on three ryo,… Read more »

girlwithadragonflytattoo
Guest

Right. Because he is blessed with so much to be able to give in the first place.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

@ Glenn, Who would NOT want to do this?: The formula for a good life for a man Marry a virgin in her early 20s. Become very successful financially Find a woman who will agree to play a traditional female role Don’t ever have any setbacks in life Don’t ever get discouraged Be buff and big and strong Wake up every day and step into the blocks to run yet another race as hard as you can Never be vulnerable Never be weak Never let you guard down with women Maintain the “frame” of your relationship and impose traditional idealistic… Read more »

Badpainter
Guest

@ Softek If the giver should be thankful the recipient shoud be what? Grateful? Resentful? Minimally appreciative? This is problem of BetaBux. The provider should be thankful he has the means to provide, but is he allowed any expectations of the recipient? The current order suggests an obligation to provide to give with nothing to be expected in return. There is no reason for the giver to be thankful for existence of the recipient. The recipient is not a positive contribution to the givers life unless giving something of value in return either to the giver or in the name… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ GWDT Yes, precisely. Although the abundance he’s blessed with isn’t his money. The story could be about a poor man who finds some money on the street and donates it to someone else, and the meaning behind the koan would be the same. The main idea is that, in the very act of giving itself, the giver and the receiver are rewarded equally. If you go out of your way to do something for someone else on the premise of expecting a reward, any reward you get will never be enough. If you go out of your way to… Read more »

Badpainter
Guest

@ Softek I agree, such is the nature of charity. Personal relationships are not charitable enterprises. In personal relationships everyone gives and takes and obvious disparities in the give and take end up breaking those relationships. As regards the BetaBux giving the entire arrangement is understood to be a quid pro quo. Even the blue pill sells it that way. Provide her material upkeep get rewarded. Of course the bait and switch is to change the terms to the reward to only being allowed to give, and thus the con. This : “Put another way: did the guy who donated… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

For all the non-idealists, there is also the flip side of GWDT’s statement theme that no one cares about what you did do. And that is seen in some cute song lyrics by The Tragically Hip: “Sundown in the Paris of the prairies wheat kings have all their treasures buried And all you hear are the rusty breezes pushing Around the weather vane Jesus In his Zippo lighter, he sees the killer’s face maybe It’s someone standing in a killer’s place twenty years for nothing, well that’s Nothing new, besides, no one’s interested in something you didn’t do Wheat kings… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
Guest
Is This Thing On?

A thank you is nothing. Not saying thanks is less than nothing. If you give to someone who doesn’t even have the social grace to say thank you then it is normal to feel slighted. It is a reasonable expectation to at least be treated with reciprical courtasy. Now if you expect the person to gush all over you and laud your generousity in public, then you are not giving for the right reasons. People who do not at least treat you courtiously should be dropped from your circle.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Glenn The list of stuff you talk about doing though… let’s be honest here: nobody gives a fuck who you are, they care only what you can do for them. Everybody will view you that way. Whether you’re doing it for something external or something internal, you have to do all those things to have what you want in this world. That’s a simple fact. Nobody will ever give a fuck who you are, they will only care what you can do for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing none of that, finding some way to move to… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

BTW, I shared the koan because I felt like it pertained to the more general idea that GWDT wrote about in her article, about hard work and achievements not being appreciated by other people, and how to cope with that. And I think that dovetails nicely with the concept of general idealism: if you want to do something for the betterment of humanity, believe in it, and follow that goal, and work towards what you believe in — but don’t expect that people will recognize what you do in this lifetime. They might, or they might not. If you base… Read more »

LiveFearless
Guest

With Keith Ferrazzi right now, he just repeated something from a prior book he wrote:

“50 percent of americans say that no one has their back,
and of those 60 percent are married”

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Nathan

Retreat to a Christian community (Get thee to a Red State)

Having lived my entire life in the South and been raised by Bible thumpers, you lost me there. That’s the very definition of hell to me, hence the reason I’m attempting to get out of the South ASAP.

StringsofCoins
Guest

Once the idealism is gone and you start to evaluate women in a conditional sense then how do you find the motivation to actually want to spend time with one of them? They make poor friends, poor conversation, and poor co-workers. The only reason to spend time with them is for sex. Eventually sex just became meaningless to me. I can’t remember the faces, much less the names, of all the women I screwed over the first year after I became red pill aware. All women have become the same to me. None of them, no vag, no hole for… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@StringsofCoins

Mormons not working out?

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

@ Sun,
I like the holy rollers. to me it’s endearing

George Meeks
Guest
George Meeks

No ideal actually exists. Idealism cannot be realism.

In reality there is only game.

Each idealism is only a tool used in the game.

Mischievous Cad
Guest
Mischievous Cad

Are Women Implicitly Sexist? Rollo and regulars, correct me if I’m wrong but at 13.32 minutes into the clip below, Karen Straughan touches upon a phenomenon that has far-reaching implications regarding the underlying forces that shape inter-gender relations. A phenomenon which has been largely neglected elsewhere in the Manosphere. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pYY7V6oGn58 The “Own Gender-Group Bias” research she refers to, revealed that the female brain has an extremely strong “Automatic Own Gender Group Bias Mechanism”, which the male brain simply does not have. In fact, the male brain tends to have a “Automatic Anti-Own Gender Group Bias Mechanism“. If true, this would… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

“The giver should be thankful” in this case, that someone with more talent/brains and prestige than him was able to make better use of his cash than he could, by furthering the development of an outcome he presumably desired. In this case an educated, civilized public Otherwise why not spend the 500 big ones on having the snooty fucker ninja’d to death? I dread to think what Diogenes would have replied. 500 big ones he couldn’t have acquired in the first place if he was surrounded by starving halfwitted bandits and marauding tribes, instead of an orderly society which gave… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Nathan

Anyone that judges me for the thought crime of believing in the wrong (or no) invisible man isn’t endearing. They’re clinically insane.

StringsofCoins
Guest

@Sun, I appreciate the morality immensely but the culture is the same traditional “man up and marry that slut” nonsense I have read people complaining about here. Anyway religion or not all women are still women. Rather then find families trying to contain and guide their hypergamous daughters and sisters instead they are trying to shame men (me) into taking these useless sluts off of their hands. No thanks. Overall I am enjoying the experience. Only one man that I have met so far seems to have any red pill awareness and isn’t just another agent of the FI. Funny… Read more »

Badpainter
Guest

Stringsofcoins – “How have you all retained some form of idealism with women? How have you been able to relate to them as more then just poorly operated life support systems for a vagina?” I share this problem. If the interaction is purely business there are no problems. Women are differently competent/incompetent from men in that sense and actually a pleasant change from dealing with men. Really I can only muster up temporary observational amusement. Nothing that rises much above cynicism. In social settings I feel like the terminator except instead of scrolling data about guns or whatever I am… Read more »

the bandit
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the bandit

Thank you, Rollo. I needed this.

Jafyk
Guest
Jafyk

Rollo, I clicked on a link you posted on one of this comment sections. The link led me to a video about your book on Youtube. After watching the video I couldn’t help but see one of those suggested videos on the side. One of them was one of a woman who posted a video “o.m.g., I found out my husband was cheating on me”. I watched the whole video and the woman generally sounded genuinely hurt, reflective and talks about all this little details of her husband, that I think is irrelevant as the focus should be “he cheated… Read more »

Ang Aamer
Guest

Rational Male Irrational Female We laugh at these trite sayings but men from the beginning of time have noticed the differences between the sexes. The ultimate implications of GAME is that Human Female mating strategy not a conscious rational exercise. If game’s success is reality. Then we have to ultimately reevaluate the female mind in terms of logical thought. We all have seen female friends make huge mistakes in mate selection but we never would take these events as an indication of female mental deficiency. But yet WE DO discuss game openly and never consider the full implications of a… Read more »

Hobbes
Guest
Hobbes

There is a bit of a problem with this idealism and wanted to think about it a bit before I posted anything. A while ago, I think it was is Rollos “burden of performance” post, it caused in me a wonderful epiphany that has lasted to this day. I finally got it, and I look back at it as the day I finally became more red pill than not. So ever since I have had o issues with understanding and accepting the burden of performance and if anything, I have come to feel excited about rising up to the challenge,… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@StringsofCoins

the culture is the same traditional “man up and marry that slut” nonsense I have read people complaining about here. Anyway religion or not all women are still women.

This was exactly the experience I was talking about in my younger years. We live in a culture that’s 75% Christian (or some variation thereof), and yet it still exists as the femcentric mess we all observe here. If that doesn’t drive home how ultimately ineffectual religion is at the societal scale, nothing will. Hypergamy doesn’t care about your religion or your piety.

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@Hobbes Many of the people who are defending the “idealist alpha” in the responses, as well as Rollo himself, are married. I’m not married, but I can see a possible tack to take that results in Alpha idealism and RP views. Living up to your own ideals first and requiring a woman entering your frame to accept those ideals as truth could feasibly work. I might very well be wrong, but I can at least see it as a possibility. It would require absolutely rock solid frame that I don’t think most men are capable of once they’re in a… Read more »

Eon
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Eon

“His Beta conditioning convinced his idealism that his wife would shared in that idealistic concept of love in spite of his absence of performance. Consequently she despises him for it. She’s the de facto authority in the relationship and he slips into the subdominant (another child to care for) role.”

Interesting comparison. The tendency of women to bitch incessantly about the difficulty of raising children does seem disturbingly similar to the bitterness they hold towards a male who can not dominate in the relationship.

Hobbes
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Hobbes

@Sun- my problem is that what you are describing is the how, not the why. I you are going in with rock solid frame knowing female nature etc.. then that is, but no human definition, idealism. There has to be a part of you that believes in idealistic notion of love for it to qualify as idealism. If all we are talking about is frame, then there is no reason to bring idealism into the mix. Hell it simply becomes superfluous. Simply put, to be idealistic about your love with a woman, you have to believe in some way that… Read more »

Badpainter
Guest

@ Hobbes Maybe the process of unplugging permanently damages the ability suspend disbelief when it comes to being idealistic about women. When so much of the process involves abandoning long held ideals a tenacious clinging to reality may be the substitute for BP idealism. Coupled with having been a fool and made a fool by the FI the new RP man is not in good position to take anything on faith. I see little hope for such men, myself included, to ever be able put aside their knowledge of reality long enough to embrace and act on an idealistic love… Read more »

gunnerq
Guest

OP: ” I’d suggest that men’s idealism is the natural extension of the burden of performance.” Perhaps the male idealism is better stated as the idea she will be content with a basic minimum of resources just as men are content with a basic minimum of sexual attractiveness. The idealism leads him to believe she will appreciate his current, sufficient resources instead of hypergamously blowing up what she has for a chance at grabbing more. “Men’s idealistic love becomes a liability when he’s conditioned to believe that women share that same idealism, rather than hold to an opportunistic standard.” This… Read more »

Hobbes
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Hobbes

@badpainter- yes, I agree. We all come at this from our own unique perspectives. But it makes my point. A single guy who goes red pill can more easily burn it all down, take it in and redesign himself and his life accordingly. In contrast a man who is married- even if alpha- and grows more red pill, or is suddenly thrust into confronting it, will have a hard time reconciling it all- much more than the single man. He can not simply “burn it all down” without hellish consequences, he is most definitely still in love, has a family… Read more »

Mr T.
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Mr T.

While men strive for the ideal, women -being the weak sex – strive for survival .

The truth is women DO want men to believe in the idealistic love (and they mischievously loves it and deep inside they know it is NOT sexy) it serves their survival+needs.

The Lone Planet
Guest
The Lone Planet

Game = trying to keep your girlfriend/wife from putting a bullet in your skull. How long before the stalling tactics run out? Place your bets gentlemen.

StringsofCoins
Guest

@Hobbes, Very good post. I’m not sure what you, badpainter, glen, or I am supposed to do. Since my personal red pill awakening the only way I’ve been able to relate to women is fully with the knowledge that they can not love me. It’s not very fulfilling. Perhaps women will start to bring back the lost art of charm so they can better fake love and snag themselves a tool through marriage. Otherwise it’s a failing economy and socialist state as men focus more and more on the art of seduction and women just bask in the romp. Maybe… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
Guest
Yollo Comanche

HA! Timely post Rollo! Know what I learned after re-reading the rational male and getting to Preventive medicine 2? I learned that my WHOLE self-hood had been hamstrung into promoting what basically amount to convenient social constructs that basically took the legs off of any horse I tried to put in the race. Even working out and getting a six-pack amounted to jack-shit because I still believed I was the unpopular little stuttering emotional wreck on the inside. This book is essentially a re-frame. But in my case it was an antidote. In relation to this post, my idealism has… Read more »

rugby11ljh
Guest
rugby11ljh

Man after reading the comments I can only imagine going out and doing some physical activity with all of you. Holy hell how I can relate.

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

I think Badpainter put it beautifully: “Maybe the process of unplugging permanently damages the ability to suspend disbelief when it comes to being idealistic about women. When so much of the process involves abandoning long held ideals a tenacious clinging to reality may be the substitute for BP idealism. Coupled with having been a fool and made a fool by the FI the new RP man is not in good position to take anything on faith.” It’s an adjustment, to be sure, to live and thrive in an inhospitable desert. To choose to stay alive by any means necessary in… Read more »

‘c’h’okmah
Guest
‘c’h’okmah

Ok, I’m going to back this up just one step. A common theme that I witness throughout almost all of the comments on this blog is about society’s relationship to the person posting the comment. Great, that is a very real and true thing. We are social creatures, after all. However, to the extent that one chooses to remain in that place, AFTER READING THIS BLOG, then one is choosing, in my humble observation, to ignore the subtext of Rollo’s teachings. Look, I’m not going to mince words. Western “society” as we know it, is completely FUBAR. I can’t put… Read more »

thedeclineandfall
Guest

Interesting points gunnerq. Those hard-working men who want to be rewarded for their accomplishments will never find gratitude in this narcissistic selfie culture. It is what Rollo talks about with the “old set of rulebooks”.

Biology will eventually take care of civilization; the more feminist nations are going extinct due to below replacement fertility. Many will be wiped out by Muslim immigrants as they age and grey.

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

““idealism” can take simple knowledge of women’s timeline and use it to imply BOTH alpha fucks AND beta bucks “provisioning” while talking to new women. Which means we guys can imply BOTH and trigger the “Jackpot” response in women.” tip of the hat to Yollo Commanche. Your quote is profound. And that is also true of whichever timeline your woman partner is. I still sense a lot of nihilism going on in today’s comments. In the manosphere, 25 year old single men, 30 to 45 year old divorced men, and 53 year old married men are not disparate. Neither is… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“Like Cypher in the Matrix film: consciously choosing the known lie because the truth is just too desolate and unpalatable to contemplate.”

Was Glenn imitating Cypher earlier today? Intentionally or unintentionally?

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

@‘c’h’okmah “For the love of Pete, STOP PLAYING THEIR GAME. Their game ONLY works when you WILLFULLY play it. So stop. Just stop playing it. To be clear, that does NOT mean to GYOW, vis a vis females. It simply means to stop trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.” I never did think that Atlas Shrugged was workable. It lacked a further spiritual dimenson. Ayn Rand was just a bit too much like Hillary Clinton in a non-feminine way. (Both of the two being un-feminine INTJ bitches,the 0.8% of the female population). I had unique study-group… Read more »

sjfrellc
Guest
sjfrellc

“I came home and realized how socialist Europe, Germany and esp. East Berlin was. I resolved that the U.S. was more “wide open for opportunity” and non- socialist back then. (And a lot less feminist-equalist back then). I resolve to myself, that if life in this grand world is but a game, then, I’m going to damn well learn the rules and play it well. 20 years from now I’m not going to apologize for either not knowing the rules to the game, or for not having played it well. One of the primal motivating forces in my life back… Read more »

‘c’h’okmah
Guest
‘c’h’okmah

Oooool,Choose an item. @sjfrellc Just showed upon here, all of a sudden like, similar to fungi sprouting after a rain. So non-obvious. Jeez. Atlas Shrugged comes from an agenda. You are correct. It’s not workable, and never will be. “Pipe dream,” comes to mind. The ‘spiritual dimension’ of which you speak is a very real thing. No one wants to acknowledge that, but, of course, it’s true, as we all know. The “further spiritual dimension” of which you speak is otherwise known by plain folk as the banal term called “commonsense.” Widely understood, rarely articulated as such. “I resolve to… Read more »

Tom Arrow (@gotomarrow)
Guest

What you call idealistic love – I assume you mean courtly love – wasn’t even true in earlier times, at least not in a sexual sense. I remember Kenneth Clark going on about the absurdity of putting a woman on a pedestal earlier to the age of Romanticism in his documentary Civilization. We are not only being spoon-fed a lie, we are also spoon-fed false history. I don’t assume that women were ever different. Look at films like Jules et Jim, 50 years old. Nothing different. I don’t believe that there was any big change – albeit men may have… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy

Re:the giver being thankful. I get from it if you knew ahead of time that the receiver wasn’t going to say thank you, would you still give to them? And if you wouldn’t, then I guess your reason for giving wasn’t just out of trying to help. It was partly an attempt to facilitate getting something back. Maybe just a thank you. Or maybe to give so that others can see you giving. I reminded of a time I was visiting two girls once. When the time came around that they were going to eat dinner I was going to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

I suppose I personally am at a point where I still wind up finding women I wouldn’t keep even if I had a device that could 100% remove hypergamy from them, so whether I can have idealistic love in an LTR doesn’t even matter to me right now. It is currently nothing more than an academic discussion for me, being of absolutely no personal consequence until I’ve established far better Game and moved to somewhere with better male:female and female:fewhale ratios. For the moment I’ve clamped down hard on oneitis, have a plan that includes no steady woman, and have… Read more »

‘c’h’okmah
Guest
‘c’h’okmah

@Tom Arrow, False history. Imagine, just for one millisecond, that you were spoonfed a lie your entire life. What cause of action would you have in our legal system? Fraud is a no-bullshit cause of action… the entire façade depends upon it. What if you, and everyone situated like you, pressed on that nerve, simultaneously? It would crash the system, overnight, despite their fraud. Think about that. Just think about it. For 15 seconds. Think about it. Now, per Tom Arrow, let’s talk about idealistic love. Courtly love? Come on. Can we please be serious about this for 5 seconds?… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy

Sun, think you could ever be with somebody knowing that a together come what may won’t ever be there completely? That there is always a scenario that if it happens, she’ll go feral (Rollo’s post) but because you’re living your life as you want it for you, chances are it won’t happen?

The Diplomat
Guest
The Diplomat

Related to this post on idealism, and definitely worth a second read:

http://therationalmale.com/2014/05/13/intersexual-hierarchies-part-ii/

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@WCB Sun, think you could ever be with somebody knowing that a together come what may won’t ever be there completely? This depends entirely on if I ever decide I want children. It’s pretty much agreed upon by all parties in modern society that two loving parents are the best thing for a child. Currently I’m not interested in kids, but if I ever am I don’t think I could go the surrogate route or anything like that. They’d need a mother. That being said, if human beings did evolve to be complementary in relationships (and a child’s need for… Read more »

LiveFearless
Guest

@StringsofCoins You wrote: “I do wonder if Rollo’s wife knows about and reads this website.” Rollo answered that three years ago: My wife trusts me implicitly; in fact she’s been the inspiration of, or planted the germ of an idea in me about a lot of post topics most of my readers would find surprising. Find those powerful words and a longer elaboration that will surprise you in the same paragraph here: http://therationalmale.com/2012/02/28/fidelity/ With your question in mind, there are a lot of discussions here in the comment section circling around questions that have been answered in one of the… Read more »

Glenn
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Glenn

Let me be clear about something. What I said doesn’t mean I don’t get or understand “game”, and in fact my rejection of what Rollo is proposing in this post is based on Red Pill awareness. And I’ll reiterate my personal quals for those who want to dismiss me as being a loser. I have an N of over 100. I’ve fucked more dimes than most of the guys on this blog will in 10 lifetimes. I made more money by the time I was 40 than 5 of you will make in your entire lives. I’ve written books, traveled… Read more »

Glenn
Guest
Glenn

@ SunWukong – Your last comment concerned me. Keep this in mind, the more you try to win a women over, the less interested she will be in you. And the dynamic Rollo suggests is implicitly you trying to win her over. You keep her interest by being a mystery, by being a fantasy, by being less accessible than her. You be the most accomplished man on earth but if you vassalize yourself to her, she will fuck the pool boy who “just doesn’t give any fucks”. I’d rather be the pool boy… As for children, you are correct. But… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

sjfrellc “realized how socialist Europe, Germany and esp. East Berlin was. I resolved that the U.S. was more “wide open for opportunity” and non- socialist back then. (And a lot less feminist-equalist back then).” Aha. There’s a reason for that. There are two Janus faces to “socialism”. It’s not all beer and skittles, you know. Exactly one hundred years ago the states of Europe decided to indulge in on/off bouts of Total War, separated by about a generation. Even in the ensuing “Peace” the populations needed bribing and cajoling to prevent wholesale defection to one side of the Iron Curtain… Read more »

Octavian
Guest

Here’s the deal. Like I’ve elaborated on my blog, the social order has inverted. It used to be the men who were socially empowered to pick mates and run society. It is now women, and we men are the gender to be plucked like flowers in a garden by women. Face it guys-we don’t have a choice anymore. THEY do. We can game until we’re blue in the face, and shell just walk away if it suits her. Conversely if she wants you-whether its for a roll in the hay or because of your resources -all you need do is… Read more »

Softek
Guest
Softek

@ Glenn I’m an experienced guitarist and have been doing building and repairs for years. I laugh when people say “A poor musician blames the instrument.” A lot of times the problem really is the instrument. Anyone want idealism? Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSPoYlfY0j4 Hendrix never got married. Died at 27. The greatest and most influential rock guitarist in history. In “Stone Free” one of the verses goes: “A woman here a woman there try to keep me in a plastic cage But they don’t realize it’s so easy to break But sometimes I can feel my heart kinda running hot… Read more »

Hobbes
Guest
Hobbes

@Glenn- I agree with you as my last few posts show. I find this idealism with RP to be non-compatible But I think I get where Rollo is coming from to a degree.In our natural state- in the wild, so to speak- primitive mans idealism would have been complementary with womans hypergamy. A man needed to defend, feed and want to stay around with a woman, so his idealization of her would have increased the chances of his genes surviving. Her hypergamy would have ensured that she found the best mate to do these things for her. In the natural,… Read more »

Mr T
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Mr T
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