Idealism

 

idealism

When Neil Strauss was writing The Game there was an interesting side topic he explored towards the end of the book. He became concerned that the guys who were learning PUA skills and experiencing such success with women of a calibre they’d never experienced before would turn into what he called “Social Robots.” The idea was one that these formerly Game-less guys would become Game automatons; mouthing the scripts, acting out the behaviors and meeting any countermanding behaviors or scripts from women with calculated and planned “if then” contingencies.

The fear was that these Social Robots “weren’t themselves”, they were what Mystery Method, Real Social Dynamics, etc. were programing them to be and the relative success they experienced only reinforces that “robot-ness”. My experience with guys from this blog, SoSuave and other forums has been entirely different. If anything most men transitioning to a Red Pill mindset tenaciously cling to the ‘Just Be Yourself and the right girl will come along’ mentality.

A strong resistance guys have to Red Pill awareness will always be the “faking it” and keeping it up effort they believe is necessary to perpetuate some nominal success with women. They don’t want to indefinitely be someone they’re not. It’s not genuine to them and either they feel slighted for having to be an acceptable character for women’s intimate attention or they come to the conclusion that it’s impossible to maintain ‘the act’ indefinitely. Either way there’s a resentment that stems from needing to change themselves for a woman’s acceptance – who they truly are should be enough for the right woman.

I’ve written more than a few essays about this dynamic and the process of internalizing Red Pill awareness and Game, but what I want to explore here is the root idealism men retain and rely on when it comes to their unconditioned Game. In truth this Game is very much the result of the conditioning of the Feminine Imperative, but the idealistic concept of love that men hold fast to is what makes that conditioning so effective.

What’s Your Game?

I’ve written before that every man has a Game. No matter who the guy is, no matter what his culture or background, every guy has some concept of what he believes is the best, most appropriate, most effective way to approach, interact with and progress to intimacy with a woman. How effective that “Game” really is is subjective, but if you asked any guy you know how best to go about getting a girlfriend he’ll explain his Game to you.

Men in a Blue Pill mindset will likely parrot back what their feminine-primary conditioning had him internalize. Just Be Yourself, treat her with respect, don’t objectify her, don’t try to be someone you’re not, are just a few of the conventions you’ll get from a Blue Pill guy who is oblivious to the influence the Feminine Imperative has had on what he believes are his own ideas about how best to come to intimacy with a woman.

For the most part his beliefs in his methodology are really the deductive conclusions he’s made by listening to the advice women have told him about how best to “treat a woman” if he wants to get with her. A Blue Pill mindset is characterized by identifying with the feminine, so being false is equated with anything counter to that identification.

When you dissect it, that conditioned Blue Pill / Beta Game is dictated by the need for accurate evaluation of men’s Hypergamous potential for women. Anything that aids in women’s evaluating a man’s hypergamous potential to her is a tool for optimizing Hypergamy. The dynamics of social proof and pre-selection are essentially shortcuts women’s subconscious uses to consider men’s value to her. Likewise the emphasis Blue Pill Game places on men’s ‘genuineness’ is a feminine conditioning that serves much the same purpose – better hypergamous evaluation. If men can be conditioned to be up front about who they are and what they are, if they internalize a mental point of origin that defers by default to feminine primacy, and if they can be socially expected to default to full and honest disclosure with women by just being themselves, this then makes a woman’s hypergamous evaluation of him that much more efficient.

This is where most Blue Pill men fail in their Game; who they are is no mystery, their deference and respect is worthless because it’s common and unmerited, and just who he is isn’t the character she wants him to play with her.

So even in the best of Blue Pill circumstances, a man is still playing at who he believes will be acceptable to the feminine. His genuineness is what best identifies with the feminine. Blue Pill / Beta Game is really an even more insidious version of social robotics; the script is internalized, the act is who he is. However, it’s important to consider that this genuineness is still rooted in his idealistic concept of a mutual and reciprocal love.

From Of Love and War:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to.

In The Burden of  Performance I made the case for men’s need to perform for feminine acceptance and how men’s idealistic concept of love centers not on a want for unconditional love, but rather a love free from the performance requirements women’s opportunistic, Hypergamous, concept of love demands of him. This quote sums up that idealistic want for rest from having to perform to earn a woman’s love and acceptance.

The problem of course is the supposition that a performanceless love would ever really be love, but men’s idealistic nature still believes that the state is realizable. On a social scale the Feminine Imperative sees the resource utility in this and so encourages the idea that both men and women mutually share his concept of idealized love. Thus men, unaware of the respective differences in concepts both sexes hold with regard to love, enter into a perpetual state of qualifying for a love they believe women should be capable of. Men will work hard, build empires and amass fortunes to come to that state of performanceless rest they idealize should be possible with a woman.

The Marriage of Idealism and Opportunism

About two weeks ago I was called to the carpet in the commentary by George Weeks (a.k.a. Not Born This Morning, one of many aliases) for what he believes was an inconsistency in my assessment of men’s idealistic concept of love and how that idealism is really symbiotic with women’s opportunistic concept of love. I’ll spare you his autistic attention trolling, but he did raise a few points I do need to clarify about how men and women’s separate, but purpose driven, concepts of love developed.

From Intersexual Hierarchies:

In the beginning of this series I stated that men and women’s approach to love was ultimately complementary to one another and in this last model we can really see how the two dovetail together. That may seem a bit strange at this point, but when social influences imbalance this conventional complement we see how well the two come together.

When a woman’s opportunistic approach to love is cast into the primary, dominant love paradigm for a couple, and a family, that pairing and family is now at the mercy of an opportunism necessitated by that woman’s hypergamy and the drive to optimize it. Conversely, when a man’s idealistic approach to love is in the dominant frame (as in the conventional model) it acts as a buffer to women’s loving opportunism that would otherwise imbalance and threaten the endurance of that family and relationship.

From Heartiste’s post:

7. Arguments about chores, money, sex life, and romance were highest in couples where the woman made all or most of the decisions. Female decision-making status was an even stronger determinant of relationship dissatisfaction than female breadwinner status. Women can handle making more money in a relationship, but they despise being the leader in a relationship.

8. Argument frequency decreased among female breadwinners if they were not the primary decision-makers. Lesson for men: You can have a happy relationship with a woman who makes more than you as long as you remain the dominant force in her non-work life. Or: GAME SAVES MARRIAGES.

When a woman’s love concept is the dominant one, that relationship will be governed by her opportunism and the quest for her hypergamic optimization. The ultimate desired end of that optimization is a conventional love hierarchy where a dominant Man is the driving, decisive member of that sexual pairing.

This was the meat of George’s confusion. As with the opportunism that Hypergamy predisposes women to, men’s idealistic concept of love stems from his want for genuineness and a want for what could be. I’d suggest that men’s idealism is the natural extension of the burden of performance. From a Beta perspective, one where women are his mental point of origin, that burden is an unfair yoke; one to be borne out of necessity and ideally cast off if he could change the game. To the Alpha who makes himself his mental point of origin, that burden is a challenge to be overcome and to strengthen oneself by. In either respect, both seek an idealistically better outcome than what that burden represents to them.

In and of itself, a man’s idealism can be a source of strength or his greatest weakness. And while unfettered Hypergamic opportunism has been responsible for many of women’s worst atrocities to men, in and of itself Hypergamy is the framework in which the human species has evolved. Neither is good nor bad, but become so in how they are considered and how they are applied.

Men’s idealistic concept of love is a buffer against women’s opportunistic concept of love. When that idealism is expressed from a Beta mindset women’s opportunism dominates him and it’s debilitating. When it’s expressed from an Alpha mindset it supersedes her opportunism to the relationship’s benefit.

Conditioned Idealism

If you want to use Blue Valentine (the movie) as an example, the guy in the relationship abdicates all authority and ambition over to his wife’s opportunism. He idealistically believes “love is all that matters” and has no greater ambition than to please her and ‘just be himself’, because his conditioning has taught him that should be enough. His Beta conditioning convinced his idealism that his wife would shared in that idealistic concept of love in spite of his absence of performance. Consequently she despises him for it. She’s the de facto authority in the relationship and he slips into the subdominant (another child to care for) role.

Now if a man’s Alpha, willful, idealism propels him to greater ambition, and to prioritize his concept of love as the dominant, and places himself as his mental point of origin for which a woman accepts you can see how this leads to the conventional model. His idealism is enforced by how he considers it and how he applies it.

Men’s idealistic concept of love can be the worst debilitation in a man’s life when that idealistic nature is expressed from a supplicating Beta mentality. It will crush him when that idealism is all about a bill of goods he idealistically hopes a woman shares and will reciprocate with. This is predominantly how we experience idealism in our present cultural environment of feminized social primacy.

From an Alpha perspective that idealism is a necessary buffer against that same feminine opportunistic concept of love that would otherwise tear a Beta apart.

There was a time when men’s idealistic concept of love was respected above the opportunistic (Hypergamy based) concept of love. I explored this social control of Hypergamy in Women Behaving Badly.

Under the old set of books, when men’s attractiveness (if not arousal) was based on his primary provisioning role his love-idealism defined the intergender relationship. Thus, we still have notions of chivalry, traditional romance, conventional models of a love hierarchy, etc. These are old books ideals, and the main reason I’ve always asserted that men are the True Romantics is due exactly to this love-idealism.

There was a time when men’s idealistic love concept pushed him to achievements that had social merit and were appreciated. Ovid, Shakespeare and the Beatles would not be the human icons they are if that idealism weren’t a driving force in men and society. Likewise, women’s opportunistic, hypergamy-based concept of love, while cruel in its extreme, has nonetheless been a driving motivation for men’s idealistic love as well as a filter for sexual selection.

Under the new set of books, in a feminine-centric social order, the strengths of that male idealism, love honor and integrity are made to serve the purpose of the Feminine Imperative. Men’s idealistic love becomes a liability when he’s conditioned to believe that women share that same idealism, rather than hold to an opportunistic standard. This is what we have today with generations of men conditioned and feminized for identifying with the feminine. These are the generations of men who were conditioned to internalize the equalist lie that men and women are the same and all is relative. From that perspective it should follow that both sexes would share a mutual concept of love – this is the misunderstanding that leads men to expect their idealism to be reciprocated and thus leads to their exploitation and self-abuse.

A man’s idealism becomes his liability when he enters a woman’s opportunistic frame still believing they both share a mutual concept of love.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@ Rollo – Not currently as I got bored of recording and the old stuff kind of sucks. I am considering doing something on YouTube and will send a link when I do so.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

The question that has started to run around in my head is this: is the destruction of marriage/LTR an inevitability in any sufficiently advanced free civilized society? Think about the past where humans evolved in tribal societies. Your options for mates were limited (pretty much static), and the established heirarchy was more or less static as well. While polygyny and hypergamy made sense at a species-wide level, to the individual and even to the tribe they didn’t. They would be a source of internal conflict that could be quite damaging or even fatal to the entire tribe. Fast forward to… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

So here I am traveling the world with barely enough time to read, much less reply. But I’ve got to commend your image choice here Rollo; it’s really excellent. Making me think a bit even before reading the post.

Maybe a bit because I’ve been sightseeing and sometimes have had to, begrudgingly, take selfies for family so all my pics aren’t just like some damn postcard.

Cheers from Portugal! Enjoying lurking here between it all.

SF

The Wallmeister
The Wallmeister
7 years ago

Either way, women loving opportunistically doesn’t last once you hit the wall.

http://todayslifestyle.com/entertainment/celebs/the-20-hottest-babes-of-the-90s-where-are-they-now-201544310

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Glenn, “I think right now we are seeing a “Perfect Storm” of politics, culture and hypergamy on ‘roids in a fit of runaway selection due to the feedbacks, and it’s throwing our whole society out of whack. It’s bound to burn itself out, but wow, does it suck to be dealing with. I also realize that I’m just a grain of sand on a beach, and am being whipped around by all this. I can change exactly nothing about it, all I can really do is try to deal with it. I just want to be happy, I don’t need… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
7 years ago

Rollo,

Thank you for writing this. I know I had requested “The Marriage of Idealism and Opportunism” and you wrote it here. It does not go over my head.

Beyond the 48 laws of power, are there others on a to read list. I have 4 months before a tremendous workload.

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

A final thought. The only way I can see a man being idealistic in harmony with a woman’s opportunism is to constantly measure her against his own ideal template of who she needs to be to fulfill him. I read somewhere men marry their girlfriends and discover to their shock that they got wives instead. The girlfriend is the ideal, the wife is lesser, and the maintenance costs are higher. With correct mindset once the weight increases and hair gets cut she is no longer ideal and his love for her reflects her lack of adherence to his ideal standards.… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

Just re-read the article, and I still get a purple feeling from this idea of Idealism. But in the end I am going to hold off judgement until I read the book. This post came up as a response to someone questioning what was written in the book, so maybe reading the idea in the context it was originally presented will either make me see I’m just missing it, or whether I decide it just doesn’t fit into my experience of things. When I first came to TRM I remember being in a state over a woman I was seeing… Read more »

LiveFearless
7 years ago

Did Fortune Magazine’s
Erica Swallow just respond to the success of “The
Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” by Rollo Tomassi?

A close friend just shared her views
on the Erica Swallow piece.

The FB comments below her post
fit this discussion of Idealism
and “egalitarian equalism”
(phrase coined by Rollo Tomassi)

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

There was once a blog in the manosphere from Solomon II. Does anyone remember him? It was before my time on the manosphere. It was about idealism for the longtime married guy’s wife. There is still this ability to be old school if the wife was locked down before the time of cellphones and Facebooks. Those of you technically skilled can potentially go to the archive at ROK and go to page 69 of the archive and read about how an old guy can still choose the old wife over the hottie harlot young chicks. Keep in mind that those… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

And where’s jeremy? I need to know, man.
Is that a Bell&Howell super8 or straight eight that Monsieur le Hipster is arseing about with? Or an early Canon? (Couldn’t care less about Girly’s 35mm reflex).

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

“Even the most Alpha male on the planet will have difficulty when the fight is him vs. the whole of society.”
Sun, maybe I should just leave off commenting and let you pull the waggon. Bang on it, my son.
Cunt’s still got to feed himself, keep himself warm and
never, ever get sick. Even if he’s all on his own-i-o.
A hard task, outside the Tropics. Impossible on your own, for more than a couple of winters. (Break a leg for luck, luv!)
Which a lot of *Very Silly People* can’t seem to grasp.

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

Pffttt. Spot the errant italic tag, people.

Bromeo
Bromeo
7 years ago

I can see Rollo be whipped by his wife at home LOL 😉

cyfox
cyfox
7 years ago

Thanks Rollo, this article was the missing link for me, that has set my mind at ease.

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@cyfox- can I ask how so? I feel like I’m missing it. What did you get from it that it set you at ease?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@badpainter

The only way I can see a man being idealistic in harmony with a woman’s opportunism is to constantly measure her against his own ideal template of who she needs to be to fulfill him.

I can see this and agree with it. I expected that if an Alpha Man brings his idealism to the marriage, then it will require his constant vigilance to be maintained. Then again, it’s the job of any leader to maintain any relationship he’s engaged in by measuring against his ideal then enforcing changes. I wouldn’t expect his marriage to be any different.

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Sun- I think I see my problem here- If a man is constantly measuring and enforcing then he is not, by my definition, idealizing. That doesn’t sound like idealism, does it? It sounds like very pragmatic thinking. So maybe I’m getting hung up on the definition of “ideal”, but it seems a better word should be chosen if that is what we are saying. For example, if what we are defining as idealism is a man comparing his real gf/wife to an ideal and then measuring and enforcing rules to get the relationship to his ideal, then we can say… Read more »

cyfox
cyfox
7 years ago

@Hobbes. I’d have to read again to bring up fine points, but… I now feel comfortable with the “burden of performance”. I used to be blue pill ideal. Now I know not to look for that anymore. I can look back at my experiences, and see what a tragedy blue pill thinking led to. After a year or more of internalizing these new ideas… processing all the memories/nightmares in a new mindset, the only question I had left was: “What am I going to do with my desire for a soulmate… for the ideal relationship? What about loving others as… Read more »

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Striver
Striver
7 years ago

It’s possible for an alpha who’s always maintaining frame to be idealistic about marriage itself, but how can he be idealistic about his partner? By definition, her opinions and behavior are irrelevant and only useful to determine tactics. With betas idealization/supplication is really about the only tool in the toolbox a man has left. Even a framing alpha is essentially supplication and a bluff. Who is going to spend time on Marriage Game if it isn’t needed? Marriage Game is needed because the wife of a framing alpha can still walk away at any time for any reason, and he… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes It is an act of idealism to get married in the feminized first world to begin with, in my opinion. However, more to your point yes I do see it as idealism even if a Man is measuring and adjusting. Think for a moment about what you consider the ideal man you wish to be, and then think about how you’ll probably never achieve it. It is still being an idealist to aspire to that ideal, even if you in all reality know you’ll never achieve it. To me idealism is the mere act of aspiring to an ideal… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
7 years ago

I like RP because it is creating beasts out of men, unleashing manliness and the IDGAF attitude. Damn it feels good to feel alive.

I just wonder sometimes why RP isn’t more widespread, its like there are only a handful of people like Rollo posting about new topics in the manosphere. How is it out of the billions of people in the world we only have like less than 10 writing about the RP theories. How is it possible something so true in reality is only discovered by a such a small group of men.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
7 years ago

” You can be The Most Interesting Man in the World and still be raked over the coals because you made bad decisions, or were put into adverse circumstances,” I think this is what Glenn is saying.. You will be put into these adverse circumstances.. no matter who you are or what you do. Your ‘decisions’ and actions are practically meaningless in this new paradigm. So why expend all this energy trying to juggle it, navigate it, and hope you reach the promised land? Just accept it, but take no shit and take no prisoners. To make myself feel better..… Read more »

Mr T.
Mr T.
7 years ago

Ps
Idealization leads to pedestalization .

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago

Man this has to shared with other males it’s the only way not to get attacked in public for bringing it up. Observe and go forth.

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
7 years ago

p.s. if you follow my prescription above, you must make sure to spend some time with fellows who have gone through the meat grinder (i.e. the family courts). Their advice will be priceless, and unfortunately, the average married chump avoids those men, and those topics, like the plague. Big mistake. The system is so fucking irrational and skewed, your intuition will NOT suffice. You must acquire first hand knowledge. For example, stashing cash.. you can do this easily.. however, her cunt lawyer will dig deep and spend much effort trying to identify exactly that. You must be very cunning and… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

OT… I did not get a chance to say Congratulations on the new book Rollo. Somehow my wordpress login wasn’t working. So, Congrats. I owned a paper copy of the first one, and passed it onto my brother. He has since passed it onto one of this friends/acquaintances. Last word from that guy is that he loved it and also passed it onto a friend of his. Sorry for cutting into your sales, but just wanted to share that. I’m going to be getting multiple copies of both the first and the second one next week. I already have it… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
7 years ago

@Rollo “I would argue that Beta conditioning combined with Blue Pill hope and men’s idealistic concept of love predispose them to insecurities they believe only women can uniquely solve for them.” My personal observation is that these men are on a never-ending quest for idealized reunion with their mother’s “unconditional” love (or, if they didn’t get it from mommy, to rewrite their life script and obtain that which their conditioned BP hope tells them is out there in that one special snowflake). They are like bugs that will endlessly cling to the outside of a screen door or repeatedly bump… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
7 years ago

And Roosh—not to downplay his massive contributions to the Sphere in any way—fairly reeks of “desperately seeking the Madonna.” It’s always interesting that many of the borderline misogynist gamers seem to keep flying at the “ideal woman” window pane and that they are obviously frustrated BP idealists. At least through my red colored lenses, anyway.

I don’t fault Roosh for his ongoing quest. It has driven him to publicly generate a prodigious and helpful body of work. However, in an RP reality—such an ideal is obviously not a realistic, achievable goal.

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@ Rollo – Thanks for the spirited response and I guess to some degree I’m being provocative intentionally to air this out. It’s also true that I find myself very emotional about all of this and well, I just let it rip as i think that’s the best service I can do for other men here. I also appreciate the clarification, in the sense of being descriptive rather than prescriptive, it actually makes a difference in how I see your commentary. And yes, I guess I have to admit that I know you are not recommending a binary man-up or… Read more »

locoss
locoss
7 years ago

rollo…why are ur books so cheap? i am not complaining..thanks fore making ur works available. u save men agony

[I’m a saint, what can I say? Actually spreading the message is more important to me. I make a good living in my career already; turning my writing into a living would compromise the message. I don’t ever want to be dependent on writing for my livelihood – I’ve seen what’s happened to the Purple Pill bloggers who have.]

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
7 years ago

@Rollo “I would argue that Beta conditioning combined with Blue Pill hope and men’s idealistic concept of love predispose them to insecurities they believe only women can uniquely solve for them.” @Glenn ” I do long for a respite from the constant pressure to perform,” I think what we’re broadly defining as idealism here is more along the lines of Glenn’s statement, than Rollo’s.. imo Guys are gluttons for punishment, and will ignore red flags and carry on with a worthless woman, because they are weary, because they are desperate, because they want things to be easy, because they want… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Glenn “But still, I wonder how many men could ever make it work in today’s world?” Obviously very few. Look at how few men as a percentage of the population actually join this community. Starting with the truth about yourself and the world around you is the bare minimum. Then look at how many guys get a look at that, throw their hands up with a “Fuck it I can’t win.” and go MGTOW. What’s left is probably the sum total of men that can do it. Not very many. “And at what cost to them personally?” What has it… Read more »

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
7 years ago

It’s also the same exact reason we hang on for so long to obviously broken relationships, as long as our base needs are being met.. We don’t want to be cast back out into that morbid see of wannabes who don’t have a woman locked down, and must perform. I think rejection buffering is your greatest articulated concept. For me it is the number 1 thing I am currently internalizing. A 100% ‘no fear’ attitude toward rejection. This is truly loving oneself. You can say you love yourself all day long, but unless you’ve accomplished ‘no fear of rejection’, and… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago

This is idealism 1908
http://www.jacklondons.net/buildafire.html

TuffLuv
TuffLuv
7 years ago

@rollo Man, I think it’s just because guys are trying to qualify to be that long-term prospect for a woman, not just a lay. Again, because they want their quest to end here, with her, so they can rest. Anxious to believe they’ve found ‘The One’. They wholeheartedly believe, and probably correctly, that the chick differentiates between cads and long term prospects, and they want to present themselves as the latter. Occam’s razor my friend. “For all of men’s default respect for women and playing nice, they’re met with negligible reward (if any) for that disposition.” That’s the rub of… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
7 years ago

I find it so hard to see men still think women(hypergamy) would reward them for their ideal love .
the moment you lose your job is the moment hypergamy would kick in and all your ideal love is worth nothing to her.
the best way is George`s way .

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago

Well here is a soundbite of idealism
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VaFFwABew1w

Jeremy
7 years ago

@ Glenn, While I can empathize with the feeling of “pressure” to constantly perform… in reality there is no pressure save what we place on ourselves. You can absolutely go through life with low expectations, game the ugly tatted chicks, and still have a happy life. No one is saying that you *must* use your knowledge of the red pill to succeed at nailing down an HB8+ for life, or else you’re some kind of failure. “Perform” as much or as little as you like. Just know that your skill at gaming is likely a direct linear function to how… Read more »

Mr T
Mr T
7 years ago

one last thought
the only time when a woman appreciate the “ideal love” is when you are 30 and she is 50.

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

Your fame is spreading, chief. Even as far as this popular, long-running and fairly tough-minded housing and economics forum over in EnglandLand.
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/147969-deluded-old-scrapper-birds-on-dating-sites/page-285#entry1102689700
[OK OK, only a few of them are actually nutso, the rest are sound]

Mr T
Mr T
7 years ago

@Glenn

YOU NEED TO TAKE A BREAK FROM WOMEN .
try it for 6 months.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

Great commentary this week. Sun Wukong keeps up a streak of 50% saying what I want to say first and 50% saying things I didn’t think of. Glenn hammers things out aggressively. Not trying to just be everyone’s cheerleader here, but don’t have much time atm for critical reply. Just wanted to give a few shout-outs. Ang Angmar; great comment earlier. I’ve postulated before that women posess less agency wrt their sexual instincts – men have limited control, women nearly none. This goes far in explaining the (apparently genuine) sentiment women have about their choices being someone else’s fault –… Read more »

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
7 years ago

@Forge

“I’ve postulated before that women posess less agency wrt their sexual instincts – men have limited control, women nearly none. This goes far in explaining the (apparently genuine) sentiment women have about their choices being someone else’s fault – it really does feel that way to them.”

Or so they would have you believe. This, my friend, is a very slippery slope of rationale that justifies all sorts of bad acting from serious rape accusations to the more commonplace “it just happened” excuses.

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Rollo- If that is what you are saying, then I think my problem was the opposite of what I thought. In short, I was reading too deeply into it and expecting it to be more complicated than what you are trying to say. Go figure. @Sun, Glenn etc- I honestly think that is you didn’t get married in the 0’s in your 20s, or unless you are now young enough to catch a woman before she goes feral, thus being able to influence her with more power.. then the marriage ship has sailed. Shit, even under those more idealistic conditions… Read more »

StringsofCoins
7 years ago

@everyone,

Thanks for your comments

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
7 years ago

@Rollo “I realize there is a socialization aspect to this, but why should it be that most men retain a natural deference to the feminine? For all of men’s default respect for women and playing nice, they’re met with negligible reward (if any) for that disposition. Why does it still feel ‘wrong’ to be an asshole to women when that’s what women directly or indirectly reward men for? Most Blue Pill guys will still cling to that Nice Guy script even after it’s been proven to them that women love Jerks. It feels wrong to act like the Jerk. Why?”… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  The Diplomat

That was the best comment I got the “privilege” to learn from yet.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Rollo

Why does it still feel ‘wrong’ to be an asshole to women when that’s what women directly or indirectly reward men for? Most Blue Pill guys will still cling to that Nice Guy script even after it’s been proven to them that women love Jerks. It feels wrong to act like the Jerk. Why?

Maybe I’m blithely missing a point or being overly simplistic here but: because being a nice guy is the path of least social and psychological effort. People are lazy.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes I honestly think that is you didn’t get married in the 0’s in your 20s, or unless you are now young enough to catch a woman before she goes feral, thus being able to influence her with more power.. then the marriage ship has sailed. In all fairness this is entirely possible, but then again you’re also implicitly invoking the magical unicorn fable here. If you believe in unicorns, then yes the time may have passed. If you believe you don’t find a good woman but instead make one, then things are tougher but not impossible. I’m still not… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Sun- there is alot of territory between a unicorn and clay the can be molded. I imagine you’d agree that there has to be a minimum of quality for anything to work. I’m saying most women don’t reach the minimum requirement to qualify as malleable. Forget unicorns man, it’s about having a minimum of standards- i.e. a reasonable n count, capable of intimacy, non alpha widow, non virulently feminist/careerist, etc. You can’t turn shit into gold, and while a mans behavior will influence a womans behavior, it’s not like you can think that if you just “Manned Up” enough, you… Read more »

Johnycomelately
7 years ago

I wonder how many ghetto baby daddys suffer from idealism. Dalrock made an interesting point about failure to launch being young mens reaction to a lack of female signalling or to put it differently the waning of idealism. Pre Millenials are grounded in monogamy culture idealism, post Millenials will be a different kettle of fish. Just talked to one of my soccer players (23 years old) and he mentioned how he calculated that it would be cheaper to break up with his girlfriend and pay child support than remain within a relationship (his 2nd child, already paying for another one… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@The Diplomat – I recognize the ability for women to utilize this narrative for their own benefit. I think it’s similar to how a man might have, in previous times especially, used an ‘I don’t know my own strength’ excuse for beating their wives or children. Acknowledging the rationalization there does not excuse the man, and it would also be foolish to thereby deny that men do, as a matter of fact, have greater strength. So I could be wrong here. I have no data nor a clear way of collecting it. But if I’m right that would be valuable… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

A bit of a digression, but I think it’s very useful in general for men to understand woman’s arousal state and process – if not intuitively, at least didactically at first so you can figure out how to properly initiate, escalate, and figure out your weak spots.

Wish I had that knowledge a few years back, ha. It’s probably easy for men who have had no issue with attracting women how huge such small things can be.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago

What incensed him the most was the blatant jokes of the ones that passed it all off as a jest, pretending to understand everything and in reality not knowing their own minds.
James Joyce, Ulysses

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Quoting Ulysses is an intolerable act of cruelty no matter how nicely played.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago
Striver
Striver
7 years ago

Gotta tell an anecdote, only sort of related to idealism, but anyway: Went to a party this weekend, all guys, played cards. The wife of the host was there, tending to stuff. Nice looking woman, still slender, but in her 40s so getting on up there. Anyway, I am not yet divorced, and I have backed away from any tentative dating to work on myself, game, whatever. Another man there is my age (middle age) and has been divorced for some time. He is going on about meeting people on Match.com et al and hititng up the host and his… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Striver

“Do you think you can handle Jennifer?”

Depends. Does she wear a collar I can hook the leash to, or do I have to bring a muzzle?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

Actually I think my future response to that one any time I hear it will be shorter:

“I own a pet crate.”

The Diplomat
The Diplomat
7 years ago

Lol. Striver’s friend is on Match.com and is beseeching his party host’s wife to hook him up with dates at a man’s card game.

Shit test survey says: It’s pretty obvious that guy can’t handle Jennifer. Or Leslie. Or Karen. Or Charisse.

447
447
7 years ago

@RM: “I realize there is a socialization aspect to this, but why should it be that most men retain a natural deference to the feminine? For all of men’s default respect for women and playing nice, they’re met with negligible reward (if any) for that disposition.” I think you perhaps seriously underestimate the power of socialization as an aggregate of life-long-forces, rewards and punishments. Just a few examples of what socialization can make humans do: – blow yourself up to kill (only a few) enemies – willingly let yourself be sacrificed for a snake in the sky that somehow wants… Read more »

447
447
7 years ago

@ Striver: “This “can you handle me” business. Why is that a badge of honor?” To females, it is. It’s a classic case of sexual projection: Just because women think that a “untameable” man who is hard to control is sexually attractive, they project that onto men as some version of a “seductive challenge” – it’s part of pop songs on a regular basis. They mean something like: “I am very wild and sexually developed, are you alpha enough to MAKE ME WANT to be a good pussycat?” Of course, those are the exact same women who go to see… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Rollo, “Why does it still feel ‘wrong’ to be an asshole to women when that’s what women directly or indirectly reward men for? Most Blue Pill guys will still cling to that Nice Guy script even after it’s been proven to them that women love Jerks. It feels wrong to act like the Jerk. Why?” I think, at least at first, acting like a jerk feels kind of like giving a speech you didn’t prepare for – a kind of anxiety about playing an unfamiliar script – that will, on top of that, have unpredictable consequences. When I’ve managed to… Read more »

LiveFearless
7 years ago

http://imgur.com/9jBd2Ys

Sometimes perfect ‘marketing’ pieces just appear in front of you. The 100+ comments in support of the project are priceless.

Many comments were from ex boyfriends that assume they’ll be written about in the book. Interesting.

Excalibur
Excalibur
7 years ago

“Now I don’t know if he is going to pursue anything with “Jennifer” or what will go down there. I’m sitting that one out. But the shit test is so ridiculous. All it does is weed out the cautious, responsible types in favor of the most aggressive. Since they haven’t been in the driver’s seat in choosing their spouse in most of history, it’s no surprise that they’re so poor at choosing partners.” The “shit test” as some kind of “fitness test” that women give men is moronic. It’s just bad, immature and rude behavior by women. If anything, a… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

“If a woman genuinely likes a man, and she is emotionally healthy and mature, “
I can’t think of any cases on record. Probably doesn’t exist.
Beneath all the tankgrll bluster and YOLOism they pretend to, I have to agree with 447. Too often been disappointed by an instant reversion to “unsexy, scared little girl mode” the minute she’s out of the public gaze and the door shuts. It’s a real cock-shriveller.

Or is it just me? Should I shower&shave better, maybe?

Striver
Striver
7 years ago

Back to the topic at hand. Men and women have a symbiotic relationship. Like predator/prey, wolves and deer, whatever. It is the job of the wolf pack to hunt the deer the best they can. However, if the wolves become too numerous or efficient, they gorge on deer for a while, then die of starvation because all of the deer are gone. Right now, Western women are gorging at the hypergamy and serial monogamy troughs. Their resource extraction and opportunism has become far too efficient, and they are killing off the idealism of men. It can’t last. I thought I… Read more »

Divided Line
7 years ago

Do you guys ever wonder if women don’t have their own blue pill and that the female red pill is coming down the pipe? I think the female red pill will reveal to them that men aren’t the powerful, raping, threatening, oppressive monsters they complain about but secretly desire. They’ll figure out, in fact, that most guys want a break from performing and some damn peace. I wonder which gender will find their own respective red pill more disappointing.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago

All I can say is that maybe the mindset here is long gone but surely missed
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.html

Vulpine
Vulpine
7 years ago

“Can you handle Jennifer?” “I sEEeee. Forget I asked.” As for ideals, I have them. Experience has proven to me what “love” ideals are realistic with regards to women, so I keep it simple. 1. Shorter than me. 2. Weighs less than me. 3. Dark, preferably black, hair. The only one that really matters to me is #2. If she starts weighing more than me, she doesn’t “love” me, end of relationship. Simple, realistic, finite. Sure, I could just say “passes the boner test as long as she’s with me”, but, it isn’t well received in conversation, or is deliberately… Read more »

Vulpine
Vulpine
7 years ago

Now that I considered “fat is beautiful”, let me retract “chocolate” and instead offer “Viagra is a woman’s ‘blue-pill'”, instead.

Vulpine
Vulpine
7 years ago

Yes, yes… it’s just another reincarnation of the same ‘ol “jump at my pedestal” trick.

I used to fall for that “man up and deal with my crap” shame routine. GAH!

Twenty-nine abortions?

I suddenly have an idea for a “Dead Kennedys” album cover, not unlike the soap scenes in Fight Club, except with a different clinic’s dumpster.

Lucien
Lucien
7 years ago

This post exemplifies something that has bothered me about your writing from the start. It’s what I call the “one-dimensional society” fallacy. The greatest exemplar of this fallacy was the critical theory of Adorno and Horkheimer, as laid out in their work the Dialectic of Enlightenment. Adorno and Horkheimer lived through the emergence of totalitarianism. They thought that, alongside Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, the United States also exhibited an emerging totalitarianism in its economy and culture, but one that was more subtle. So they sifted through all the laws, habits, practices, and culture to undercover a single, all-encompassing hegemonic… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Lucien – “They thought that, alongside Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, the United States also exhibited an emerging totalitarianism in its economy and culture, but one that was more subtle.”

Seems they right about that at least.

Divided Line
7 years ago

@ Lucien Have you ever read the Dialectic of Sex by Shulamith Firestone? She’s a 2nd wave radfem who later turned out to be schizophrenic, I think. She argued that Marx, while correct about the origin of ideology in our experience of our material condition, had failed to recognize a “sexual substratum” beneath productive and economic relations. In other words, the original material condition is a sexual market place of mates. Even if she was wrong about everything else and even if she misread the implications of that substratum, I think that’s spot on. The real germ of society and… Read more »

Amit
7 years ago

This is why this blog appeals to me. You talk about BIOLOGICAL reality, the 1s and 0s which are affected by this reality, the social implications of this reality. It simply isnt wishy washy but grounded in evidence and research. There have been so many times in the past Ive gotten advice on issues of gender and its always been some type of feel good meme…keep doing what your doing Rollo…you bring a sanity to a world of “the feeelz”.

Jeremy
7 years ago

I wonder if Lucien would say the same thing about a “male” imperative if it were written like so… “So even in the best of Red Pill circumstances, a woman is still weaker than a man and thus unable to build her own house, grow her own food, take out her own trash. Her duplicity is what best extracts from the masculine the services she needs. Red Pill / Female Game is really an even more insidious version of social robotics; the script becomes internalized, the act is who she is.” Both sexes have hard-coded strengths and weaknesses that are… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

“The greatest exemplar of this fallacy was the critical theory of Adorno and Horkheimer, as laid out in their work … “
… paging 8oxer, paging 8oxer over @Dalrock’s …
Over to you on this, my fine frankfurtian friend.
Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Tam the Bam
Tam the Bam
7 years ago

Agreed. Shulamith Firestone was somewhere beyond schizo, well into shrieking moon-cabbage territory. Made Charlie Manson sound rational.

Brendan
Brendan
7 years ago

“This was the meat of George’s confusion. As with the opportunism that Hypergamy predisposes women to, men’s idealistic concept of love stems from his want for genuineness and a want for what could be. I’d suggest that men’s idealism is the natural extension of the burden of performance. From a Beta perspective, one where women are his mental point of origin, that burden is an unfair yoke; one to be borne out of necessity and ideally cast off if he could change the game. To the Alpha who makes himself his mental point of origin, that burden is a challenge… Read more »

Jeremy
7 years ago

@Brendan I think the thing that gets me most is that in order to do “Game” I have to lie to my partner. I have to pretend like I don’t actually care about her, or I have to genuinely not care about her, and I have to play stupid games with her. Why should you care about your SO more than yourself? Can you know what your SO needs better than He/She does? If so, what’s your secret to mind reading? If not, then you have to acknowledge that the person you know best is yourself, and no one else.… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy
Brendan
Brendan
7 years ago

Thank you for being patient with me Rollo. I hope that you can be patient for a little while longer. I would like to make sure that I understand these things correctly. Maybe somebody else can answer me if Rollo doesn’t. When I first read the part of your article that I quoted, I was very offended and angry and I did not understand. But I realized from the other comments that everybody else understood. So what you said obviously made sense, but there was some sort of psychological block that was keeping me from wanting to understand it. So… Read more »

Divided Line
7 years ago

@ Brendan You’ve articulated my position on it perfectly. I don’t see that male and female relations of this sort can even be sustainable in a modern context. The sexual marketplace is a bit like a failed labor market. In a failing economic system, there will always be those gung ho, never-say-die, self described badasses who refuse to give in to what they regard as defeatism, but this has as much to do with their insecurities and unwillingness to make any serious criticism of the system in which they compete and expect to be successful as it does any strength… Read more »

muddge
muddge
7 years ago

@ Divided Line

“There’s nothing men can do anymore.”

and

” If enough guys unplug and stop playing the game, the whole thing collapses.”

I understand the cause for pessimism, but these are two contradictory statements.

Brendan
Brendan
7 years ago

Divided line, you said that you described your position perfectly, but I didn’t see what your message has to do with my message. The only part of my message which seems to be connected to yours is the part where I asked whether women would get even pickier if all the men in the world turned alpha. I suppose if I were trapped in the USA, I would probably stay MGTOW, but I’m planning on going to Russia soon, so I’m going to try dating again. My experience is that foreign women treat me nicer than US women, and Russian… Read more »

Lucien
Lucien
7 years ago

” I think the thing that gets me most is that in order to do “Game” I have to lie to my partner. I have to pretend like I don’t actually care about her, or I have to genuinely not care about her, and I have to play stupid games with her. I would attack any man who treated me the same way that game says you should treat a woman.” Actually what Brendan writes kind of intersects with the underlying concern beneath my post. I want to speak from experience for a second. Basically: when I’ve gotten a woman… Read more »

Wolf N. Shepherd
7 years ago

It’s very true that every guy has his own version of game. If you try to explain how game works to the ignorant, often they’ll throw back something about girls liking them for them. They don’t act like a simpering faggot around their bros, but still they can’t see that their different behavior around women, designed (misguidedly) to help them get laid, is fundamentally the same as the behavior engineered by Mystery and his kin.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

@Ra Sputin March 26th, 2015 at 6:50 am https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201308/what-do-women-really-want If anyone didn’t have the time to read this survey of what women want, go back and read it. tl;dr pretty much everything that Rollo has written about for the last 14 years in a updated, referenced evolutionary and behavioral psychology essay. Knowledge backing up experiential knowledge and theory. @rugby11ljh March 26th, 2015 at 3:01 pm Hey rollo this goes to your tweet on Amber and shit testing https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3hwP8m6NC0 This clip is the end but the story has such good social dynamics on alpha fucks beta bucks and well dealing with… Read more »

xabi
xabi
7 years ago

I think Rollo is the first PUA I see, who says or implies we should not reject idealism, just give it a new direction (or shape, or whatever). That’s why I think he is the best, he defies everyone, lol. Some paragraphs in this article have been an eyeopener for me, i’ll think through them… Very interesting More or less… I got this idea: Betas of the world should abandon idealism so with the help of Game can morph to Alphas, and after that embrace idealism again. Then, idealism will be an advantage and newborn Alphas will live ignorant of… Read more »

trackback
7 years ago

[…] you have a look at the picture I used for my post Idealism you can get an idea of how men and women experience their existence. This masterfully encapsulates […]

Dumb Pollock
Dumb Pollock
7 years ago

I would describe the difference between the anti-game and the Game to be the different methods in unlocking a strongbox. You could either use a sledgehammer to break the lock. Or you could learn to pick a lock. One is messy but other will impress the girls more.

trackback
6 years ago

[…] the age of 5 on into (and beyond) our teenage years. So it should come as no surprise that male idealism finds its most formative roots when we’re kids. Even when our imaginations aren’t fed […]

trackback

[…] This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism. […]

trackback
6 years ago

[…] covered male idealism in a generic sense before, however that idealism (the unhealthy kind) when put in the context of a […]

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