Blue Pill Frame

BluePillFrame

Establishing and internalizing a strong sense of Frame is one of the most fundamental aspects necessary for a man’s personal success. I’m hesitant to use the word “success” here because it subjectively means so much to men on an individual basis. “Success” is a relative term, but I intentionally began the Iron Rules of Tomassi with Frame because an understanding of this principle applies to so many different arenas in a man’s life.

It’s far too easy to conflate Frame (and the hoped-for success that can come about from it) with a power-of-positive-thinking motivational vibe. Developing, maintaining and internalizing a personal Frame isn’t derived from motivational thinking. That’s not to say it doesn’t help, but Frame can align either on realizable realities informed by Red Pill awareness or it can be founded on deeply ingrained investments in Blue Pill conditioning.

For some men, a Blue Pill mindset, and the conditioning principles that formed it, is the foundation of what they convince themselves is a very strong, very ‘correct’, establishment of Frame. It quite literally is the reality into which they expect a woman will want to be a part of and will want to readily cooperate within. The problem, of course, is that the Frame they’ve developed is informed by Old Rules/Blue Pill goals that mischaracterize the truer natures of women and what their motivations are.

This insistence of women adapting to a Blue Pill Frame is the root of many a Beta man’s downfall when a woman has finally run out of Alpha Fucks options during her Party Years and she’s “turned over a new leaf” in the necessitousness of her Epiphany Phase. Women aging out of the sexual marketplace are only too happy to appear to be a Beta man’s Blue Pill ship that’s finally come in.

Behold, Camelot

I have heard many times, from well-intended Blue Pill men, some variation of the Just Be Yourself self-righteous expectation that women should want to enter into his Frame. “If a woman can’t accept me for who I am, she’s not the right (quality) woman for me” is the standard refrain. The Frame is strong, the expectation is (seemingly) strong, but the Blue Pill foundation it’s built upon is flawed because it is influenced and conditioned by the Feminine Imperative that always expects him to focus outwardly instead of making himself his own mental point of origin.

If they were honest, these are the guys who will Beta Hamster their Blue Pill ideal of the ‘right’ girl being any one who acknowledges his Blue Pill Frame.

There’s usually some self-evincing rationale that sounds similar when a Blue Pill guy has his Frame challenged by a woman unwilling to play along with his “world”. Whether he comes to this by rejection or simply observing women’s solipsism and duplicity, the reasoning is never about the validity of what his Frame is based on, but rather the disqualification of a woman who contradicts his ego-investments in it (i.e. they become “low quality women” to him).

However, many a White Knight will have what, for all purposes, is a very strong personal Frame. This dedication to a Blue Pill conditioned mindset is central to their ego-investments and it’s a big reason why it’s so difficult to unplug a man from it apart from some trauma that shakes his investing his personality in it. And even then, it’s far easier to disqualify the women who want nothing to do with his Frame than it is to get him to reconsider his fundamental, Blue Pill, old books belief-set.

As I was picking apart the conditions that lead to a man like Steve from last week’s post to becoming what he is, I found it’s important to highlight the determination with which most men will defend their Blue Pill investments and defend the investments of other Blue Pill men with whom it aligns with.

From Enter White Knight:

Every random chump within earshot of your conversation about Game, about your ‘changed’ way of seeing inter-gender relations, about your most objective critical observations of how women ‘are’, etc. – understand, that chump waits everyday for an opportunity to “correct” you in as public a way as he’s able to muster. That AFC who’s been fed on a steady diet of noble intent, with ambitions of endearing a woman’s intimacy through his unique form of chivalry; that guy, he’s aching for an opportunity to prove his quality by publicly redressing a “villain” like you for your chauvinism. Even under the conditions of relative anonymity (like the internet), he’ll still cling to that want of proving his uniqueness just on the off chance that a woman might read his rebuff and be fatefully attracted to him.

The more invested a Blue Pill man is in his Frame, the more ardent a White Knight he’s likely to be. The problem in all of this is that his dedication to that Frame, and the expectation that ‘quality women’ will rationally and deductively appreciate it, is in error. Women fundamentally lack the ability to fully realize, much less appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate their reality. Even the most enlightened, appreciative woman you know still operates in a feminne-centric reality.

It’s easy to spot (and get annoyed with) a White Knight when he comes to the aid of M’Lady on an internet forum, but the defender-of-the-faith behavior also extends to other men, like himself, given to the same Blue Pill Frame and ideals. From a Red Pill perspective we know this is virtue signaling, but it’s also indicative of reaffirming a White Knight’s dedication to a Frame and belief-set that requires a constant reassurance in the face of so much observable contradiction.

Blue Pill Frame / Red Pill Awareness

In the manosphere, there’s a tendency to characterize the Blue Pill mindset with non-assertive “people pleaser” men conditioned from an early age to defer to women and sublimate themselves to the Feminine Imperative. For the most part, that generalization fits, but I think it’s important to understand that it’s entirely possible for otherwise very Alpha men to invest themselves in Blue Pill paradigms and then build Frames up around them.

While I was writing this, reader Softek had a very good take on how Frame can be applicable from both an Alpha and a Beta perspective:

Steve’s relationship is PERFECT.

It is in EXACT ALIGNMENT with his Frame.

His Frame, which he voluntarily maintains, is that of a Beta male. Weak, submissive, and priming him perfectly to be cuckolded.

Similarly, my relationship with my GF is perfect.

It’s in exact alignment with my Frame.

This is how it always works. It’s the only way it CAN work. Your Frame is your reality, period, end of story. I’m sticking to this idea of women having no Frame, because I think it can help men to realize that the man’s Frame – as far as the man is concerned – is the only thing that matters.

I’m going to stop here because this is one of his few assertions I don’t entirely agree with. Women’s innate sense of Frame is informed by their fundamentally solipsistic nature. How that solipsism is expressed can take different forms, but in all instances it places the experience of the woman as being central to her own importance.

The easy example is the Frame grab I outlined in The Talk where a woman (consciously or otherwise) seeks to assert her experience as being the primary Frame or when a man abdicates his Frame to satisfy a woman’s need for long-term security. The other side of this is that even when women are considered ‘powerless’, and they are acted upon (hypoagency), their solipsistic experience is still central to the nature of any Frame because that presumption of powerlessness informs her solipsism and she builds her Frame around it.

Women most definitely have a Frame; it is informed by solipsism and its state is determined by what her need for optimizing Hypergamy demands at any phase of her maturity and how well she is likely to consolidate on it. I understand what Softek is getting at here, but just observe Beta men who are trapped in submissive roles to their dominant wives and you’ll see how he’s acted upon within her Frame.

If your Frame is what you really want it to be, you’re all set. You will simply not put up with BS, so it won’t be necessary to calculate what kind of BS or shit tests are being thrown at you, because you’ll automatically pass them without even being conscious of them.

At a deeper level, there is no your reality vs. her reality, or who has more power in the relationship.

It all goes back to your relationship with yourself. Your Frame. You decide what you accept in your life, and what you don’t accept.

Everyone has been telling me to get out of my relationship. Why? Their Frame is different. Maybe they have more self-respect. Maybe they have more confidence. But ultimately, their Frame is different.

They would not put up with half the BS I’ve put up with. They would’ve been gone a long, long time ago and onto greener pastures.

I’m getting what I deserve. I’m getting the relationship that is PERFECT for me, which means it’s perfectly aligned with my [current, malleable, changeable] Frame.

Frame isn’t set in stone. It’s ours to control, and ours alone, because it belongs to us each individually.

If I want a different relationship, I need to change my Frame. What do I want? What am I willing to accept? What am I not willing to accept?

This is a very important point, to understand that Steve’s relationship is PERFECT….for him. A complete match with his Frame.

If you dig into WHY he’s in this relationship, it’s for that reason and that reason alone: it resonates with his Frame. It resonates with the perception he has of himself, and the rules he’s laid out for himself in his life.

He is doing exactly what an Alpha does: living 100% by his Frame.

It’s just that his Frame is weak and submissive instead of strong and self-serving.

It’s funny when you look at things like this. When you realize you’re already “Alpha” in the sense that you know how to live 100% in your Frame….what’s stopping you from changing your Frame?

You already know what it’s like to hold Frame. Not everyone can stay in an abusive, sexless relationship. It takes a pretty extreme Beta to put up with all that. I am a fucking Beta God. I will put up with more abuse than any man on this planet. I’m the most abject Beta in the world.

(I’m being deliberately hyperbolic here, bear with me)

The most abject Beta is simply the other side of the Apex Alpha coin.

Both stubbornly hold to their Frame. The Beta holds to his Frame to his inevitable cuckolding and destruction; the Alpha holds to his Frame to his self-gratification regardless of who tries to shame him or bring him down.

We need to stop thinking “Beta Bad” and “Alpha Good” and realize that Frame is subjective.

I may not agree with some of this, and considering Softek’s dependence on maintaining his relationship it’s easy to see why he feels this way, however, he does touch upon some foundational aspects of Frame. Yes, women get the men they deserve, or in this case, women enter into relations with the men who align with what they’ve created.

As I mention in Frame, yours should be a world women will want to enter or you will be entering her Frame. That said beware the motives of the woman who would eagerly embrace a Beta’s Frame. Those motives are rooted in necessity and not genuine desire. Just ask Saira Khan.

Understanding that a solid sense of Frame – literally creating a reality in which you live and expect others to interact within – is central to success is not a difficult concept to grasp for most men. Whether or not they feel an ownership of that Frame, or a motive to employ it, is what defines men’s understanding of it. And this discomfort men have in insisting upon a solid, active, Alpha Frame is precisely what the Feminine Imperative has sought to condition into men for going on five generations now.

Recently I’ve been commenting on yet another article of feminist triumphalism, glorying in the statistics that women are far happier after a divorce. This is standard feminist boilerplate, but the bloody handed cruelty of articles like this always ignore that the “men” they denigrate are the direct results of a generational conditioning that leads men to swallow Blue Pill idealism and abdicate Frame in the name of a nebulous egalitarian equalism.

As 39% more men put a gun in their mouths after a divorce, women will bemoan a generation of men the Feminine Imperative created to abdicate their Frame. So yes, when it comes to men becoming despondent and suicidal after having their Blue Pill idealistic ego-investments destroyed by the same imperative that invested it in them, yes, “Beta Bad” and “Alpha Good”.

712 comments

  1. A Blue Pill frame is based on scarcity. I’m now much more chill around girls but the interactions I have are much better.

    Girls i’m banging often tell me about orbiters or other guys they know as “non-sexual”.

    Establishing that sexual frame is critical after sparking attraction.

    Under-estimating pre-selection is a Blue Pill frame I am slowly but surely shedding.

    A few girls in my rotation have said or alluded to me banging other girls. I never say yes or no. But a scarcity mentality pops in once in a while and I worry if it’s a turn off for them.

    It never is. If they leave it’s for other reasons rarely because they think i’m banging other girls.

    I cannot stress enough to the newbies how critical it is to focus on the bigger picture while at the same time aiming for some short-term successes.

    I just got back from a party that was wall to wall hot girls. I bounced around, laughed, teased, complimented and worked the room.

    I wasn’t desperate for numbers or new bangs. I was just soaking it all in and having fun. It’s a big step to be in a place where you know when to pull and when it’s just all for fun.

    A Blue Pill frame is based on hope, on luck, on some outside forces that determine whether you’re successful…

  2. “The problem, of course, is that the Frame they’ve developed is informed by Old Rules/Blue Pill goals that mischaracterize the truer natures of women and what their motivations are.”

    A Blue Pill frame mischaracterizes the true nature and motivations of men as well. Personally, I think that fact might be more important. Men are not docile asexual people pleasers by nature. We’re programmed to believe we should tame our masculinity, and our sexuality is harmful and should be hidden and controlled. Suppressing who you are is what makes you feel like a piece of shit, and it just leads to depression, incongruence and creepiness or being friend-zoned.

  3. “Women’s innate sense of Frame is informed by their fundamentally solipsistic nature. How that solipsism is expressed can take different forms, but in all instances it places the experience of the woman as being central to her own importance”.

    My SO’s had an upbringing with an absent alcoholic father, and her employment puts her in contact with similar dysfunctional families. These experiences are her point of origin for her frame that men are not good parents. This has always been a huge frame battle before I learned about RP. Before I would cave into her due to her profession, but now after the RP, I know she is just projecting her self-centeredness. Her common refrain/shit test is that I have changed. What did change is that I became a father, which is a fantastic change, but this also put me in conflict with her poor father-image frame. So I really didn’t change (except for current RP awareness), life circumstances just propelled me into discovering this ugly little frame of hers.

  4. Rollo every day I wake up and smile because within me I change and realize I am more than capable of being the man I want to be.
    Your part played in that is staggering.
    Thank you

  5. @Andy
    “A Blue Pill frame mischaracterizes the true nature and motivations of men as well. Personally, I think that fact might be more important. Men are not docile asexual people pleasers by nature. We’re programmed to believe we should tame our masculinity, and our sexuality is harmful and should be hidden and controlled. Suppressing who you are is what makes you feel like a piece of shit, and it just leads to depression, incongruence and creepiness or being friend-zoned.”

    Well put…

    This comes to mind in effort with what we learn than what is their.

  6. @ Rollo:

    “Women most definitely have a Frame; it is informed by solipsism and its state is determined by what her need for optimizing Hypergamy demands at any phase of her maturity and how well she is likely to consolidate on it.”

    This is a good post. But the quote above is worthy of some further exposition. It’s actually worthy of its own separate post.

    Women’s frames are characterized by all the things you mentioned. There are other things too. In order of importance:

    –most importantly, her feelings. Everything revolves around her emotional state at any given moment. It’s why a woman’s frame is a constantly shifting target. Her emotional state IS her truth and her reality.

    –her need for provisioning, safety and security

    –her desire for attention, validation and affirmation

    –how others perceive her, or more to the point, how she believes others perceive her

    –her desire for sex with attractive men

  7. Following up:

    Ultimately, men’s and women’s competing frames are really all about power. Each frame attempts to assert power in the relationship.

    What’s different over the past 50 years or so is that the FI now has law, culture, government, Church, and every other societal institution supporting it. So the woman’s frame has more power by default — a situation that women want because it makes it easier for them to get what they (claim to) want. The FI also says, implicitly and explicitly, that a man’s frame is for all intents and purposes illegitimate. It is wrong, criminal and perverted to operate within a man’s frame.

    Frame is all about power, really. The person who dictates the frame they operate in is the person with more power in the relationship.

  8. Rollo, I don’t agree that women’s default solipsistic frame is the only frame that they can have. An alpha will pull a woman into his frame and a woman will morph her frame to fit his. A woman in a relationship with a beta will assume a dominant frame and the beta will morph his frame to fit hers. A woman who is a free agent will assume a different frame.

  9. A Blue Pill frame is based on scarcity.

    No. A Blue Pill frame comes from FI programming. Alphas can be Blue Pill and not operate from scarcity.

  10. “..The FI also says, implicitly and explicitly, that a man’s frame is for all intents and purposes illegitimate. It is wrong, criminal and perverted to operate within a man’s frame..”

    So true. The other day my wife, in one of her shit storms, said I was a bully because I would not take her on a date unless she wore decent , feminine clothes. I laughed and said “you don’t know the half of it, honey. I am also a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe, capitalist oppressor of the working class, white priveleged patriarch.”

    I realized that she was using the term bully like leftists use those other terms I listed. To paralyze, to shut down discussion, to frighten. Whether she knows it or not, my wife has accepted the FI and is using its tool kit.

  11. Those ‘women are happier’ is a highly dubious interpretation as that wasn’t the question they asked. The question was whether or not they regretted the divorce. That is definitely not the same question, and answering in the affirmative would require the respondent to be admit to making a mistake if they are the ones who initiated (which women are, about 70% of the time).

    The other thing is that this is not “women who got divorced are happier than women who chose not to”. Generally, the opposite is found.

    Of course that doesn’t sell the message that other people want to buy. People want justification, not truth.

  12. Rollo thank you for another great article. I too thank you for what I’ve learned, the dots I’ve connected thru my own experiences, as well as others. I cannot “un-see” what I see going on today, and I’m glad you put a light on what would normally be in the dark.

    Please keep up the good work, you have helped many, but i can say personally both of your books were fundamental in my awakening. Again, Thank you sir.

  13. Being a man and identifying as such is as much a part of our environment as it is to do with anything else. The loss of manufacturing in the west led to a decline of men being seen as men.
    The service industry was the preserve of women, until men were forced into those careers.

    There’s not much practical purpose for masculinity in this day and age. We have to accept the social-economic beta reality of our lives. There’s no escaping that.

    I like the idea of frame. But it’s dependent on how much control we have on our surroundings. A man with a bully for a boss can’t be secure in his frame. What I’m trying to say is you can’t fake frame.

  14. @ ollieoxenfree

    ” …I like the idea of frame. But it’s dependent on how much control we have on our surroundings. A man with a bully for a boss can’t be secure in his frame. What I’m trying to say is you can’t fake frame.”

    I wholeheartedly disagree with this right here.

    Your surroundings matter second, always.

    What a man always has control over is himself, his mind. Believe it or not, there is great comfort for a man when he understands that he is never his surroundings or what others think or do. Imo, that is dangerous thinking that ” we have to accept..” thus and so. You always have a choice.

    Look, if you are going along to get along, that is one thing, but do not let that become WHO you are and how you perceive yourself.

    Frame, that shit is WONDERFUL… lol.

    It will work wonders for you, and most times you don’t have to actively DO anything but exist in your Frame. Ex: A bully boss is a nuisance that a man might have to deal with for a limited amount of time a day, unless he can find other employment. He cannot actually ” change ” anything about you internally unless you allow it to happen. I deal with ” bosses ” of every stripe every day. They are reduced to ” things ” in my mind. Lol, like leaky faucets or weeds in the garden. Weeds don’t affect me internally. I pull ’em or spray ’em or fucking ignore them if I don’t feel like being bothered. It’s my choice.

    Boss: I need you to get me the *thing* asap!!! ( scowling face included )

    1) Lol, no fear. Fear no man or woman EVER.

    2) Hmmm… I could tell him to eat shit and die. My choice. An actual CHOICE/OPTION.

    3) Get Boss his * thing *, no feelz involved.

    8 hours a day is 8 fucking hours. I don’t live with boss, boss is not my buddy or pal, I’m not fucking my boss. Boss is not even in my personal Big picture of Life. Lol, he’s a *thing *. I have friends and family.

    Speaking of bosses, my immediate report is an EVP. He is brash and loud and has a habit of punching subordinates in a kind of playful manner, but hard because, you know, men can take it. I watch as these guys all punch each other every day. My immediate coworker is a very weak, frameless, AFC. So on top of that he gets the shit punched out of him daily. It’s sad and annoying to me. He doesn’t even know how to throw a punch back because, you know, he hates violence.

    He can’t be happy and satisfied inside.

    In 20 years of working for my company, no one has EVER laid a hand on me once. EVER. I’ve never told them not to punch me, I’ve not even mentioned it. In fact, my plan was to retaliate with an extremely hard flurry when punched. But it never happened.

    If a man is mostly rudderless in life, looking to be guided by ” society ” and church and other social things FIRST, then yup, you are 100% correct in your assertion. Guide yourself first.

    Be A Man. Regardless of outside forces and pressure and lack. They have zero to do with your manhood/masculinity. Manufacturing jobs left to china? Well, that sucks. Give no fucks in the end. It doesn’t/can’t define you. You wanna build shit? Build shit for yourself and your amusement.

  15. Been reading all your articles in the last couple of months.
    Very enlightening.

    This one is good too. Great read as always.

  16. Evening All,

    I thought you chaps would be interested in a “science” based article I’ve found:

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160630-the-enduring-enigma-of-female-desire

    It’s entitled “The Enduring Enigma of Female Desire”.

    Here’s a bit from the article (it acknowledges that women can lose sexual desire in a relationship more profoundly than men, but then rationalises this in much the same way that Saira Khan rationalises the same situation in her relationship with her husband):

    “For women, however, the loss is often much more severe, possibly because testosterone provides a buffering effect for men against things like mood, stress and fatigue. Women, on the other hand, often feel that their relationship has lost thrill of the unknown and the sense of mystery and risk that they felt at the beginning, and that domestic life – including exhaustion, anxiety, stress and busyness – produce a smoldering effect. “A lot of women are working their asses off,” says Nan Wise, a certified sex therapist and research scientist at Rutgers University-Newark. “A loss of spontaneous sexual desire is not pathological – it just reflects many women feeling overloaded.”

  17. @yareally @culum @habd @blax @PUA

    Went to mall in good city

    but funny thing is, I actually feel bad now about this place from being here a bunch and not progressing, whereas the mall in the “bad” city now I’m like WTF who cares, and doesn’t stress me out as much going there.

    Anyway, at mall, didn’t see easy opportunities. There’s several harder sets, like girls on the phone or in big groups, but needed some early successes to pump me up enough to do those. Got very frustrated.

    Left and went to bookstore. Chatted with a girl in manga section. She said . . . something . . . but all I heard was

    “Nerd nerd NERD nerd

    the verbal equivalent of bad breath.

    “So what mangas do you read.”

    “I don’t read any.”

    “oh.”

    and left

    Went back to mall. Indian 6 I guess in store. Not my type though.

    Asked what her favorite candy was. Said cashews

    “Pssh. That’s not even a candy. What ACTUAL candy do you like.”

    told me. chatted with her kind offhandedly as I looked over candy.

    “You ever get hit on by creepy old guys?”

    “Yeaah, its happened a couple of times.”

    “Me too. I get hit on by old guys all the time. Its because of my big booty. They’re like, ‘I’m straight, but I’d tap that ass.’ I get out of tickets the same way, just unbutton my shirt and the cop’s like ‘Okay, you can go now.'”

    She didn’t really play along. Not sure if she was ESL enough not to get it, or if it just wasn’t her thing. More of a issue where you have to switch between your rollodex of game until you hit something she responds to. I think a DHV would have been in order here — being social or intelligent, since that seemed to be more of the girl she was. High class or aspiring high class, so that shit would have the most impact on her from her upbrining.

    That wiped away the edge from being frustrated and angry, but still had an “offness”. Not enought to keep me from opening, but makes it harder to push to do new things.

    Later, girl called out to me. Sitting next to another sitting girl, and another one standing.

    “Are you ryan james?”

    “What?”

    “Ryan James. You are my sunday school teacher.”

    “No.”

    “Oh.”

    She got embarred, tilted her head down so her baseball cap covered her face.

    “You smoking the hash?”

    and she got confused

    “Uhh, you don’t smoke acid.”

    and other sitting girl said “No, HASH.”

    teased her a bit about that, other sitting girl said

    “She eats the ass tho.”

    “Ohh, so you are a lesbian. I see.”

    And cap girl got really embarressed. Head tilted down, hands on face.

    Turned to other sitting girl.

    “Is she always like this? Says things she thinks are a great idea . . . that aren’t.”

    “Oh, I don’t know her. I know this girl,” and motioned to standing girl “but I don’t know her.”

    She was kind of mean to the cap girl. Cap girl just sat with head down and hands on face. Kind of expected her to be play embarressed — like when you tease someone they ACT embarressed, and they are to a certain extent, but they aren’t REALLY embarrassed. Buts she seemed to really be upset. Almost concerned she might by crying. Was wanting her to say something to go off of, but nothing. Stayed in set a little bit talking with sitting girl, but left.

    Wanted to pull cap girl away from others, but just not sure how. Again, def not in state and tired, so very hard to do.

    Anyway, that was very good — for a group of friends. Since they were strangers, teasing like that made her very embarrassed. But in a group of girls that would have worked well. Could have played off of all of them and bouced around the girls. Cap girl was ambarressed, so switch off from her. Pump her back up by qualifying something about her, and go after the mean one more. Put more pressure on her I mean — ALL the pressure was on her, so switch it onto sitting girl. Tease her some. Just bounce around a bit, then pull the most receptive one.

    Felt kind of bad since I didn’t realize until late in the convo that she was legit embarrassed.

    Went back to bookstore. Nothing till end. 6 or 7 white girl alone in religion/new age section. Didn’t approach. Just off.

    could have done something like ask if she was into astrology, if she was a witch, something like that. but just worn out at this point.

    Same frustration, but more so since even on an off day, in a better city, I could still easily do a bunch of approaches. I wouldn’t do anything crazy on a day with a bad start, but I would still aproach and be social. Could get some numbers or instadates still. And being able to just approachapproachapproach would make it to where my bad days wouldn’t really be that bad, since I knew I would always have lots of people to talk to — who gives a shit that the first 5 went bad when I can talk to 50 more. Plus you don’t really have much down time — as soon as you finish one set, another is coming up behind them.

  18. I wanted to punch a guy in the face in a church for trying to publicly “correct” me on the subject of women. Nothing boils my blood faster than a beta cuck running his cuck mouth about shit he knows nothing about. The white-knight cuck factor is why I’ve come to realize it’s all or nothing lads. If you just have to speak publicly on the matter of gender relations, go full, non apologetic alpha or nothing. Even if people disagree with you, they will respect you for the fact you unapologetically don’t give a fuck what they think of you before you make your statement.

  19. I doubt that divorce makes women happier.
    I’ve often seen how women decay physically after divorce. In the case of my, ex who kicked me out some months ago, I receive a continuous stream of emails and messages with poems and love declaration. It looks as if she (post wall) is astonished at the quantity of thirsty dorks who want to enjoy her poon without investing anything on top of her suddenly being responsible for the full costs of her livelyhood.

  20. More dribble from the horrid Australian feminist Clementine Ford…

    dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/real-change-requires-work–something-not-all-men-understand-20160701-gpw9c6.html

  21. “Women are happier after a Devore”

    There’s been an interesting documentary on the BBC recently called “Mr v Mrs: Call the Mediator”. The program follows various couples going through varying degrees of acrimonious break up.

    Being a regular reader here, I was not surprised that the entire “mediation” process was completely dominated by women and that the Female Imperative reigned supreme. That said, observing how ruthlessly the men were being treated (tooled) was still unexpectedly shocking.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XIEc8bFtC1A

  22. Sometimes I believe the best way to strengthen your own individualistic frame as a man is to do things by your self for yourself.

    What I mean is accomplishing things in your career, for sport or at the gym or during overseas travel alone provides men with a sense of self worth and self belief. Also particularly with married guys or guys entertaining LTR’s doing this reaffirms that it is YOUR frame you want as the primary not the woman’s.

    This and a healthy understanding of the importance of a male dominant, confident frame for the health of any relationships with women are the key.

    Another excellent post Rollo, thank you.

    Dan

  23. It’s very gamma and anti masculine to come uninvited to another’s site and shill your blog….

    If you were masculine you would understand the ” hierarchy of the group” dynamic and that you need to earn the respect of your fellow men BEFORE you start advancing your agenda.

    So something like posting quality comments for a period of time, have guys requesting more posts more details etc. BEFORE you yap about your site… Basic stuff like that. And for a class move you never mention your blog, just link it to your profile.

    Fucking millenials… Raised by single moms… Think because they HAVE an opinion everyone MUST hear it.

    Pissmire…

    Sorcery god…. To LOL…

  24. Hank

    What are you doing? What is your intent in these bits? What do you look like? And do you wish to have sex with women?

    Real questions…

    To me it seems you would be better served doing 10 minutes of open mike night and get this dancing monkey out of your system before you go out.

    I ask what you look like because gay bits are fun and can work but WHEN it is obvi you are completely NOT gay… So if you might look gay you should can these bits…

    And no bits are going to work if you are not leading the interaction towards something… You will just keep getting what you are getting… Some giggles and then poof… Nothing.

    When you are spiking attraction that is when you start to move the interaction forward. Start with some compliance tests. “Hey hold this a sec” then move her within the venue “come here a minute” and lead her… Then bounce “im thirsty lets grab a coffee etc” or go for number close then “hey i have to meet my friend lets grab a drink sometime il text you”

    And for the love of Mystery get your hands on her early “thats a nice … Dress necklace tattoo etc” and touch her while being close and starting to laser. “Hey i like how your hair hangs down here” and brush her hair back. Etc.

    And when you go to bounce her take her hand wrist elbow small of back etc.

    Less jawing. Try it.

  25. What is a man without any frame?

    Do we all have frame?

    Even if it’s by default?

    Therefore can I argue:

    Blue Pill frame is built on “neediness” and requires external validation / approval. Like having a frame when you really don’t have a frame, really it’s no frame at all, rather a lack of it.

    The antithesis of being in a position of power, content within yourself, (no fucks given, take it or leave it) simply internalizing the terms you demand to live by.

  26. “It is my contention that women (who have full, rich “emotional” eyes) deliberately try to make contact eye-to-eye with men, who have poor, weak, glazed, non-emotional gazes, and when this fails, they assign the label of “thing” to him — or “useful dog.”

    Sorcerygod – OK you finally said something that makes some sense and is actually kinda profound. Except wrt the subject of “eyes”, I think what the women are selecting for, is the “wolfman” eyes. They want to sense the emotional intensity (everybody does actually), but since it’s gonna have to be the masculine variety (being the eyes of a man and all), …… well what is that, in terms of “eyes”? …..it’s not going to be the feminine receptive and beckoning gaze of – “come hither let’s go play and frolic in the cloverfield and throw daffodils at each other”, – instead, it’s going to be the masculine penetrative and consuming gaze of – “ahhh …. I like what I see! My eyes devour what I like, because in that way this world is mine!!! I’ll play the game and follow you to frolic in your cloverfield but when we get there, I’ll have you attend as I twirl the daffodil before your eyes, and spin your mind – magically transforming your world ….. leading you to the world of the satyr where the real frolicking will take place.”

    The women select for the confidence, man. It’s the way it has always been.

    But Sentient – this is “reciprocation”.

  27. ATT1LA – this “frame” discussion is bit misleading imo.

    Quoting for Rollo’s “Mental Point of Origin” article (Nov 14, 2014):

    “Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame. If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.”

    Here is the way I see it:

    1) the human condition is such that we all our own mental point of origin first and foremost. Any beliefs that fail to incorporate this basic existentially inescapable fact are delusions (of which there are a myriad). See Stirner for more on the philosophy that shows how this indeed is the psychic reality we each are subject to (Krauser has an article on Stirner – posted some time in Feb 2016 if I recall correctly).

    2) if you buy the above point, well then ……. it logically follows that frame is actually constantly being passed around, then. Believing that there is an over-riding dominant frame therefore actually is a delusion ….. even though it often seems this way – but no – no one is actually a “victim” (willing or otherwise), or a hypoagentic being, wrt the dominance of others quite the way people think – there is always always always personal agency and therefore personal responsibility at play for each, wrt frame. Our best cinema savants (like Kubrick, Bergman, Tarintino, Scorsese) subtly underline this sublime point in their best works – and are therefore celebrated by all for their genius.

    I think what Rollo is talking about wrt frame is the overt layer, and though Rollo does talk alot about covert activity within relationships, for some reason, he does not want to allow for such to be incorporated within the “frame” definition – so by Rollo’s definition – relationship frame is the overt only – what an outside observer would judge at first glance without going too deeply into the covert psychic rationale for each party upholding said overt frame dynamic. To get at the covert psychic rationale, for human relationships for which one partner seems to be dominant at the overt (could be either the man or the woman for inter-gender relationships) imo …..you are gonna have to delve into the personal psychic dynamic at play for each, wrt delusions, as outlined in #1 above.

    Of course Rollo does focus on covert psychic rationale, anyway, within his material, but tends to handle this topic of “covert psychic rationale” from a masculine-centric perspective only, instead of the birdseye perspective that I believe is often more useful.

    Rollo – What I am pointing to here does once again outline the flavor of our differences of opinion on many things – for you and I it always seems that this really isn’t a matter of disagreeing on the content of the discourse, so much as disagreeing as to where the EMPHASIS should be placed. As another example, near the end of the Princess thread you mentioned:

    “Wild Man seems to believe change comes from some process of internalization, and while it might start there, real change comes through externalization. If it doesn’t challenge you it doesn’t change you.”

    But I think it could be much better said like this:

    “YaReally seems to believe change comes from some process of externalization, and while it might start there, real change comes through internalization. If it doesn’t challenge you it doesn’t change you.”

  28. Re: @Horatius67 upthread a bit – “Whether she knows it or not, my wife has accepted the FI and is using its tool kit.” So fucking THIS.

    Another masterpiece, Rollo, truly. You may note I mostly don’t try to analyze your essays because I rarely think I can add to them. They stand on their own, and I just appreciate them. But they do fire off so many reflections on my own life and world. In no particular order:

    “The Toast” – a feminist site that just went under, publicly lauded by the likes of Madame President Hillary Clinton (practice saying that all you Trump fans, cuz that’s where we are headed) recently, lamenting their fall. Check out this essay, “Head Lice, Red Flags, and Emotional Abuse”http://the-toast.net/2015/08/25/head-lice-red-flags-and-emotional-abuse/. See how deeply the FI informed framing resides within her. A few beauts for you. And, of course, note that male Blue Pill conditioning is merely the other side of the coin. Women are just as subject to social conditioning, and given their adaptive solipsistic natures, I would say they are more prone to being less critical of the narrative offered them. I mean, when the average woman is told that women are innately more valuable than men, she just says, “Of course”…Okay, onwards.

    Note this excerpt:

    “When I was 12 years old, I got head lice.

    I waited for my mother to notice. I waited for what felt like weeks. It was disgusting, and I was disgusted with myself; they were crawling everywhere, falling off my head onto my school books, fat with my blood. But I never took any action to deal with it myself. I waited for my mother to notice.

    When I visited my father, as I did every fortnight, within about twenty minutes of my arrival he said “Oh my GOD. You’re crawling with lice!” and immediately went out, bought lice shampoo and dealt with it. This isn’t to say that my mother didn’t care for me, and it isn’t to say that my father was a more attentive parent. I understood even then that my mother had a lot of things on her mind and not a great deal of emotional fortitude. My father noticing was more a matter of coincidence—and to be honest, at twelve, I was probably capable of taking action myself. This was merely one of many incidents over the course of my life when I was waiting for someone to notice me, to notice what was happening to me.”

    Notice how her father is a mere prop in her narrative and how what her mother’s emotional state is what is primary. If you read on, you’ll note how she cherrypicks aspects of each of the male relationships she cites very carefully to erect a “case” for her being the victim of “emotional abuse”. It’s quite a read.

    She then goes on to describe her joy when the entire feminist community on The Toast and elsewhere cheered on her internalization of the FI victim meme. Check it out:

    ” was still not ready to leave; to actually change my life. Then one night we had a particularly vicious argument that ended, not unusually, with me sobbing on the floor, begging him to stop berating me. I told my sister via email, and I told my Toasties via a social media account he didn’t know I had, that he was emotionally abusing me. This was the first time I had named the abuse.

    And everyone believed me.

    Everyone believed me. Not a single one asked if it really happened that way, or said maybe he didn’t really mean it, or suggested that maybe I was also to blame.

    I can’t tell you the immense power that simply hearing “I believe you” had for me. Even now I can’t think of that moment without crying. If this is happening to you, I can’t urge you strongly enough to try to work through your shame and tell someone. You don’t have to leave that day. But I want you to get someone else’s view of you, to make sure that you aren’t being fed a lie, and I want you to experience that power of being believed. Being believed was what finally gave me the strength I needed to walk out the door. Depending on your situation, it may not be physically safe for you to “just walk out that door,” and if that’s the case, I encourage you to seek out the resources of your community.”

    THIS is social conditioning in full view. I was listening to some evo psych guru (can’t remember the name right now) talk about how important the herding/ingroup mentality is for humans. Imagine the rush this woman felts being cheered on, and welcomed and told that her emotions were “right” and that she was a victim? That none of it was her fault and that she had every right to revel in her victimhood?

    At a superficial level, one might compare this with the welcome men get here. And no doubt, we do tell men they are not crazy. That being pissed off and a bit crazed is a typical reaction. But then – after maybe 9 seconds – we pile on you and tell you that your only choice is to deal with reality head on. Not to revel in victimhood, and to in fact become less emotional about it, not more. To calm down and get clear vision.

    Look at how differently this feminist experiences reality, and this is why I’m sharing all this. I think some men believe that changing one’s frame is kind of like developing confidence or even a just about developing a more selfish orientation. But in fact, when it comes to intersexual dynamics, we labor under an immense array of institutions and social conventions that reinforce a Feminine Primary culture.

    And of course, this happens because it works. Humanity thrives when some men are “eusocial” – if you don’t know this word, look it up. E. O. Wilson spends a lot of time on this subject. Eusociality of certain classes of creatures in a species often leads to immense success – which is why Wilson studied ants and termites extensively. Worker ants labor against their own interests and without them, ants are not successful as a species. However, with these “eusocial” worker ants serving the interests of other ants, the entire species succeeds. Fyi, for those of you who don’t know, it ants and termites are considered immensely successful species from a biological standpoint in terms of the timespan they have existed, the varied geographies they live in and their dominant presence as a species.

    It’s not coincidental that they have a complex social structure. E. O. Wilson’s most important point at the meta level is that social structures and “group selection” are immensely important aspects of human evolution. In fact, without our social complexity, and sexual dimorphism at the center, grinding away, having us evolve via sexual selection and reproduction, we would still be living the trees. Our ability to form groups and complex social structures in those groups is the engine of most human progress, from a biological perspective but also wrt civilization and society itself.

    In fact, what she is doing, and what we are doing for that matter, is finding social groups that we can seek comfort it. This explains why mere reason will not suffice to break up such groups. This feminist writer has way too much at stake on a visceral, gut level about who she is and her place in the world to be shaken from her views. And of course, to maintain the delusion, the group MUST reinforce 100%, constantly.

    One last thought. There is a reason why the arguments and commentary about victim status and racism and bigotry and privilege etc. are being made at such a high pitch today. It’s because the stakes are so high for the SJW brigade, and as long as their victim narrative is accepted, everything else they do just follows. And this narrative grants women vast privileges and power, as it does all victim groups they identify. But if this narrative cracks – as it is doing – their entire worldview falls apart. If Muslims aren’t victims of Islamophobia and women aren’t chattel, controlled and oppressed by the evil patriarchy, well, then were are they left?

    Where is the feminist author of this victim porn left? She’s no longer just a weak, emotional woman who was incapable of making a relationship work and a semi-talented writer. Rather, under SJW victim rubric, she’s special, and her words really are magical. And she can be a mini-celebrity in this world, embracing her narcissism and solipsism. The choice is no choice at all when looked at clearly. Her story has been PUBLISHED now. You do realize there is no greater SJW cred than this, of course.

    One cannot escape the social conditioning. One cannot change it much individually, or collectively on the scale at which we operate here in the manosphere. One can establish his world as a redoubt from some of it, and game it for sure. You can even get to the point where you enjoy it – as I now do. Immensely, actually. But you can never escape it. Never.

    The “Blue Pill/Beta Male” is the end product of millions of external inputs that first have to defeat our innate maleness, and then program us to worship women. I think it happens young for most of us. I’m watching it happen to my 6yo nephew as his natural individualism and wildness is shamed and punished out of him every day. How his 10yo is sister is positioned way up the social food chain, how his “behavior” is always an issue. I watch his defiance weaken inexorably, like the lifeforce is being drained from him in a million little ways.

    This “civilizing” influence serves first and foremost to install a sense of self-loathing in men. Men will only dedicate themselves to others in their species if they have a mindset which permits that, and of course it goes against much male behavior and instincts so our very identity has to be eroded at the foundation of self-image. Even more galling is we are being trained to be ‘Beta with a side of Alpha’, the way Rollo describes. Told to “be a man” only when it’s convenient for women – even in their lamenting the lack of alpha in the men they create, they also seek to control it. And we willfully submit to the double-bind, cuz hey, I’m on the “hero’s journey”, right? There is a prize at the end of that trail, right? LoFuckingL…

    My point? Social conditioning runs so deep. My “game” now is all about frame. Much more than being my own mental point of origin, it’s also now one of “social intelligence” and entitlement and about being a bit of the hedonist. But still, behaviors and thoughts creep in all the time. And even more to the point? You are up against this social conditioning all the time, it’s the tide and we are swimming against it. You will feel friction at times, you will be driven mad by it – there is no escaping this.

    One can “embrace the suck” and shoulder the burden happily. But it doesn’t mean you aren’t going to counter constant adversity, nope, you will. You will be tempted to slip into those reflexive ways of being. The truth is that it’s magnificent to step out of the bindings that the mental and ontological prison this FI informed value system assigns to us. Every moment standing outside of it feels like basking in the sun.

    Happy 4th everyone.

  29. @hank

    Got very frustrated.
    Left and went to bookstore. Chatted with a girl in manga section. She said . . . something . . . but all I heard was

    I get it…some of these chicks are low value AND on top of that can be difficult, but you really have to charge your ego to the game. just let it go, especially before you’ve fucked any chick.

    remember….it’s never over.

    try to actively work on giving value and keeping a positive frame of mind.

    if you’re going to turn the mall into a place where you’re pretty much doing warm, rather than cold approaches, this skill is essential. like, sure, the chick you’re talking with may suck, but at the same time, a hot chick could see you over there having a good time and just being a cool well-liked guy….


    “You ever get hit on by creepy old guys?”
    “Yeaah, its happened a couple of times.”
    “Me too. I get hit on by old guys all the time. Its because of my big booty. They’re like, ‘I’m straight, but I’d tap that ass.’ I get out of tickets the same way, just unbutton my shirt and the cop’s like ‘Okay, you can go now.’”

    you’re still overgaming. this would have more impact with just ‘me too…’ *stare and smirk — and if she’s ESL laugh, so she gets that it’s a joke*

    I think a DHV would have been in order here — being social or intelligent, since that seemed to be more of the girl she was.

    yeah, you need to roll off just a bit on your verbosity at the beginning.
    the type of stuff you’re doing belongs more in like A2 or C1. But you’re here circling around social hook point (where she decides she is cool spending some time talking with you — no that’s not just her standing there feeling like a captive audience)

    overgaming or investing too much at the wrong stage of interaction is a DLV.

    “Are you ryan james?”
    “What?”
    “Ryan James. You are my sunday school teacher.”
    “No.”
    “Oh.”

    lol Mr. Overgame can’t even pick up an opportunity for huge DHV and rapoort-building?

    The answer is YES, I am Ryan James

    and then make up a bunch of stories that CLEARLY DID NOT HAPPEN so that everyone realizes that you aren’t Ryan James.

    You smoking the hash?”
    and she got confused
    “Uhh, you don’t smoke acid.”
    and other sitting girl said “No, HASH.”
    teased her a bit about that, other sitting girl said
    “She eats the ass tho.”
    “Ohh, so you are a lesbian. I see.”
    And cap girl got really embarressed. Head tilted down, hands on face.
    Turned to other sitting girl.
    “Is she always like this?”

    you’re killing me!

    calling her a lesbian?

    is she always like this? (that’s a line for chicks who are giving YOU a hard time, not for chicks who embarrassed themselves to talk to you)

    Wanted to pull cap girl away from others, but just not sure how. Again, def not in state and tired, so very hard to do.

    ya if you were positive in your mind and thoughts maybe you would have seen how easy it was to pull her. just sit down next to her, put your arm around her when she’s embarassed ‘awww hey it happens to all of us….I think X is Ryan James all the time..’

    that was an almost GIMME set.

    but it’s ok. right now you’re just focused on spitting game, which leads to sort of….

    you have to learn how to be more present and to think very quickly about where you’re at and what you need to do, exactly, to move yourself forward with the target.

    y were strangers, teasing like that made her very embarrassed. But in a group of girls that would have worked well.

    not necessarily. like, anything could potentially work well in some hypothetical situ. but the skill is to calibrate to the specific situ.

    generally, when a girl opens YOU, you really don’t need to tease her or whatever that much. at least not on the front end like you did lol

    @sentient

    To me it seems you would be better served doing 10 minutes of open mike night and get this dancing monkey out of your system before you go out.

    harsh, but ya…

  30. Scrib – I pretty much agree with the way you are framing some of the more deranged aspects of our current culture but I don’t really agree that nothing can be done about it.

    If each person adopts a more healthy perspective, and this happens enough, our memetic and mimetic human nature will see to it that such sentiment spreads, and when it spreads far and wide enough – it spreads like wildfire.

    Every time such dynamic has occurred in past history, such gestalt has been thwarted though ……. imo because the “more healthy human perspective” is not easily understood yet. I’m an optimist …… I think we are gonna get there.

    There are signs of that too. The wilder cultural gyrations (occurring with increasing frequency as well) that Blax speaks of, is a sign of that imo. The old ways are in death throes now. The death-throe-gyrations may become even become more violent first though.

    When that is done and over with, we should all try to get it it right this time.

  31. @Scribbler

    The Sebastian Junger book The Tribe (that Culum mentioned at the end of the Princess Experience comments) also has as it’s major theme, the increase in victim-hood seen in claims for PTSD in the military. Simple PTSD is often temporary and resolves. It is very, very low in Israeli post military because of the community. It is increasingly more common in today’s U.S military even as combat casualties become less in each war, and is more seen in these military troops that are not in forward positions.

    He also talks about how social conditioning of large societies screw people up (psychiatric conditions) more so than smaller tribal structures and communities (American Native Indian) ways.

    It’s a great read for perspective on your last comment.

    (check your email inbox)

    @Culum Struan

    Once again, awesome podcast of on the Tim Ferris Show talking to Sebastian Junger.

    A lot of the back and forth discussions I have had with Blaximus and myself vs. YaReally and Scray over the last couple months have been done for sport on my part. I believed in what I said and and engaged in intellectual discussion to learn more. Not to win an argument, but to get better.

    Make no mistake: YaReally and Scray’s discussions have changed me a lot by their explanations. I figured out my convictions better. Blaximus resonated with me and explained how my Frame should be. (and my frame is great these days. So I wasn’t toying with them, I really meant what I tried to say, I just didn’t formulate it as well as I could have.

    But I have to say I’ve had a conviction of sorts that culminated with that video livestream of Julian in which he advocates for “balance”.

    It’s been my contention for some time here in comments that when a man finds something good, he might want to settle down and find that balance, depending on if what he found is true quality.

    Well Sebastian Junger said it infinitely better than I can when he was asked on the podcast: “What would your 70 year old self tell your 20 year old self?” (For me, this is the exact same thing my 55 year old self would tell my 35 year old self.)

    Here is what he said in the podcast:

    “I think I would say to myself: The world is this continually unfolding set of possibilities and opportunities, and the tricky thing about life is on the one hand having the courage to enter into things that are unfamiliar.

    But to also have the wisdom to stop exploring when you found something that is worth sticking around for. That’s true of a place, a person, of a vocation.

    In balancing those two things, the courage of exploring and the commitment to staying, it’s very hard to get the balance–the ratio– of those two things right.

    And I would say to my younger self, just really be careful that you don’t error on one side or the other because you have an ill-conceived idea of who you are.

    It’s tough to find that balance and there are a lot of unhappy people out there because they are struggling to find that balance.”

    At 55 I find this statement true of my old self five years ago, when I was all about courageously exploring and always being courageous. This is especially true of my farm/ranch/hunting experiences. I was just too busy getting things done one after another and trying to dominate my field of play (mother nature) to settle down and just fucking enjoy what beauty was there, while not seeking a completion in life or tasks. Now the peak experiences I have out there are multiplying at a rapid rate.

    This is also true of my relationships with people and women (my wife). I didn’t have that balance back then. Now I do. I can be as Julien states “vulnerable” (because I have good Frame) and not 100% alpha all the time. And that works.

    I think the same thing is true for Long Term Relationship game. I’m not advocatinig for LTR’s, I’m just saying there is room for balance. It works the other way too, not enough exploring and having courage (Game, esp. PUA game) makes for a weak man.

  32. Disclaimer: In no way am I advocating for settling. And I’m not advocating for 35 year olds to slow down and stop charging ahead full steam. Not at all.

    In that podcast, Sebastian Junger also recounts how he was not afraid to die as a war journalist. He was set to go on another assignment in Libya during the Arab spring with the guy he made the movie Restrepo with, Tim Hetherington, but he passed (for balance in his life) because of new thing in his life in New York.

    And unfortunately Tim Hetherington was killed by a mortar shell in that assignment.

  33. SJF – a very much like that Junger quote you just posted. Calls for forbearance and equanimity (as well as the courage and the wisdom).

  34. @scray

    Excellent breakdown. Hank’s push/pulls were extreme. Not necessarily bad. Sure, they break a girl’s frame, but then you have to provide a LOT of comfort.

    “Hey, look, I was just messing with you because I like you.” [pull her in for a hug, then get in her grill with a moon-eyed/soft smile visage and laser her] You haltingly say, “I want to get to know you better.”

    Of course, this assumes that you are calibrating often and accurately, which lack of calibration was Hank’s main problem, which he stated.

    Gamer Maxim: Calibrate early, calibrate often.

  35. @SJF – Restrepo is amazing, Junger is the real deal for sure. A man to listen to.

    Re: Hank’s field reports – Learning a lot from the responses. I think what I’m doing is leashing to much in A1, which is not a bad adjustment for me as I think I was not well calibrated. But now I go for the chill vibe too much, yet when I try a gambit to spike an HB, it always works better. Witness the HB7 from last Saturday night. I reopened clumsily, “We – my friend and I – we were just saying something bad about you.” She’d already talked to my friend and she had wandered off. She was being cool to all of use but none of us were being passive.

    She was shocked and then intrigued, and when I said, “You look like girl who’d have weed” she smiled and giggled and played along. It was this escalation that made the dynamic change. It peaked with her offering to take us to her car to smoke, but now I see what I did. When that happened, I stopped gaming, it was like I thought to myself, “bammo, I’ve closed the deal” so I just chilled and the convo wandered and slowed. Got less interesting. And then a couple of minutes later she’s like, “I wonder whether it’s smart to smoke weed in downtown ______ on Saturday night?” She began backing off. I tried to tease her as an “Indian giver” but it was half hearted.

    When I think about it now, what I should have done was tease her a bit, “I knew you were a bad girl, and now, inviting a strange man to your car? I’ll be safe won’t I?” I should have kept doubling down till she got bubbly. Closed the space – which I’d already done, but not really lasering.

    Yeah, I think I see what I missed. I don’t have any advice for you Hank, as I’m still trying to figure it out too but I learn a lot from reading your posts and the analysis of them.

    Turns out my issue is about applying more heat initially, got it. I’ve been settling for more of a chill vibe after an initial spike or two. This is my natural shit getting in the way again. When I was younger, I would throw out a little bait and watch for how took it and since I was higher SMV, it took less bait. But I can see it working now. Now that I play it back in my mind, I realize that I kind of played it safe with the HB7, still. I’m getting off on the payoff of opening and staying inset longer. This is good progress, I’m also unafraid to neg on the open but it seems my appetite for being provocative wanes too quickly. Particularly with a youngish hottie in a bar, I’ve gotta spike the shit out of her. I should be more like that guy from the last thread, the PUA YaReally posted from the TV show – he opened that three-set by telling them that they looked retarded. That may be a bit much for me, but upping the temperature, getting the spike, this is key. Have to play bigger, well okay.

    This is why isolating is so key and consequently, the logistics, hmmm. Okay, i’m gonna go out sarging tonight. Why not? Recruiting a new wing.

  36. As long as Rollo’s talking about Frame, BluePillProfessor from MRP reddit had a good lecture and explanation about Frame factors in a youtube audio. He draws on Rollo and Heartiste and obviously has more of a married red pill lean.

    Frame is a hard thing to describe because your individual frame is precisely that: an individual frame. Your Frame is yours and yours alone.

    It’s not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters –Epictetus

    Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one. –Marcus Aurelius

    Technical notes: He starts out with a fast audio. It only lasts 1:15.
    He referred to username strategos_autokrator for expositions about frame on MRP reddit.

    It’s 13:35 and you can listen to it in your car while driving if you don’t want to waste the time.

    @The Man

    Sebastain Junger is a self admitted through-and-through political liberal. He advocates for forbearance and equanimity but mainly in small tribal structures <100 people (or the scalability of the military). It is normal for humans to egalitarianism intolerable and unworkable on a larger top-down scale like a large society.

    We were evolved to work as egalitarians in small tribes (with skin in the tribal game and the welfare of the small tribe). To do otherwise in a small tribe meant certain ostracization and death. That is not the case in a large society, as safety nets are there on a large scale and you don't actually have to do anything to reap rewards in a larger society. All men and women to tend to be egalitarian in small tribes. That is behaviorally observable.

  37. @scray

    Hey I see “ESL” thrown around alot ’round these parts. What’s it mean?

  38. @all
    Strongest frame always wins. Russell Brand sucks everyone into his frame wherever he goes because he has an insanely strong frame. Everyone reacts to Russell Brand. Girls have stronger frames than guys by FAR, but it’s because guys’ frames have been battered down by their FI conditioning. The chart from the weakest frame to the strongest frames would basically be 90% of men, then 90% of women, then another 5% of men, then a huge gap, then the other 10% of women, then a huuuuuuge gap, and then the other 5% of men. Going out and testing your frame regularly helps put you in that 10% of men.

    It’s not really related to your success with women. I’ve met players, Naturals, red pill guys, etc with crazy N-counts who still fall into full Blue Pill mindsets when they find their Madonna, or who simply have frames that are just stronger than most women/men, but are still easy to plow through when you’re in that top 5%.

    And you can have a strong frame in certain categories and a weak frame in others. You can be an army badass with massively strong frames around most of your life, but still have a weak fragile frame actually interacting with women or AMOGs when women are around, which is why we push guys into the field to forge their frames solid. You can’t think and pontificate your way into a strong frame sitting in your computer chair. You have to test it and have it shaken and learn to hold it, over and over, until you don’t flinch. Just like learning not to flinch and freeze up in boxing by getting in the ring and sparring…jumping rope and visualizing punches won’t make you not flinch.

    @Wild Man
    “But I think it could be much better said like this: “YaReally seems to believe change comes from some process of externalization, and while it might start there, real change comes through internalization. If it doesn’t challenge you it doesn’t change you.””

    Externalization CAUSES you to change your internals. That’s what you don’t get, because you don’t push guys through changing their externals and watch this happen. A man is challenging fuck all sitting in his armchair thinking up what he’d do in hypotheticals.

    @scribbler
    Don’t worry so much about making more of a huge initial spike. You’re already making initial spikes as it is, but regardless of how big the spikes are, they don’t last. Think of them like throwing a log on the fire. Even if you throw a bigass log, it’s still going to burn down it’ll just take a bit longer. The key is to keep throwing spikes in there when the fire starts dying. When I’m walking with a girl from the bar to my apartment, I don’t let things just go to silence and chill and die down, I’ll keep spiking her Buying Temp with little teases and callbacks. They won’t be as frequent or huge as when I first approached, they just keep the fire going and keep her rational mind from letting the ASD in.

    What you’re doing is throwing a bunch of logs on the fire and then going to sleep and waking up to cold ashes. When you were in your prime, she might throw some logs on the fire FOR you, but being out of your prime and with the way culture has shifted etc, you want to babysit her state a bit more.

    If you watch some infield pull vids of Tyler/Julien you’ll see that even when they’re pulling the girl they’ll keep teasing her and spiking her temp along the way.

    From around 13:15 this vid is basically a long-ass pull example:

    Note how he’s always ordering, always leading, always coming up with solutions to handle whatever her objections are (if he can’t just plow through them with dominance), he has to deal with multiple state interrupts that could sabotage everything but he just keeps his cool and adapts to each situation until they’re back at the hotel.

    And throughout it he’s spiking her Buying Temp, using call-back humor, passing shit-tests, qualifying her, saying things to slightly piss her off then smoothing it over (giving her the full range of emotions), etc

    What you’re doing is the initial work and then waiting for her to take the reins and lead the horse to the destination, and she might’ve when you were in your prime with all your social proof and massively confident subcomms and the smell of poon hanging off you 24/7 etc

    Shorter faster example:

    When he steals the girl from his student near the start of the video (because his student isn’t listening to his instructions to lead her for the pull instead of going for the number, to protect his ego from potential rejection), note how he keeps spiking her Buying Temp as they walk up the street. The girl doesn’t even really think about where they’re going because she’s having fun.

  39. ESL = English as a second language

    @YaReally

    What is this callback humor you speak of?

    Chilling listening to Crosby, Stills, and Nash. You don’t hear that much on the oldies stations.

  40. Scribblerg I’m glad you brought up eusociality, it’s an interesting topic that is relatively unnoticed.

    Howard Bloom in the Lucifer Principle has an interesting take on it.

    Eusociality offers a diametrically opposite view on modern psychology which is overly focused on introspection without actually observing the group dynamic which in reality causes pathologies in the first place. It’s an insidious way to shift the problem onto the individual and develop ‘coping’ mechanisms without addressing the pathology of the group dynamic.

    If modern social group structures are sick is it any wonder people respond with sickness.

    How can a responsible man being kicked out of his family social unit (social ostracism) while paying for it be anything other than the manifestation of a sick eusocial group structure?

    The problem with mental pint of origin is that no man is an island, mans greatest need is meaning and having a purpose, eusociality demands it. Otherwise the group neural network (hive mind of eusociality) subtly whispers, kill yourself…

    Frame is important but is trumped by meaning and purpose.

  41. @theasdgamer
    “What is this callback humor you speak of?”

    When you set up an in-joke with a girl and then call-back to it later to spike her Buying Temp.

    @all
    Meanwhile in Blue Pill world:

    “You’re Not “Awkward” With Women. You’re Just Creepy”, an article to remind shy introverted boys to never feel entitled enough to DARE talk to a woman:

    http://archive.is/4OzaU

    Written by a man who, well, you can read all about him for yourself lol

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/15/houston-press-writer-jef-rouner-tweets-picture-of-his-own-daughter-to-self-confessed-pedophile/

    And in other news, Mattress Girl has been given the Woman of Courage award by NOW for making up a false rape accusation and ruining a man’s life putting him through years of psychological hell because he didn’t handle Buyer’s Remorse well:

    The good news is people are making sure people know she’s full of shit. The bad news is this will, of course, be spun as her being harrassed by misogynistic MRA woman-haters as she sets up her Patreon fund for all the White Knights like the above article’s author to donate to.

    Gonna be an uphill battle to save men from the world that’s evolving out there.

  42. ” The problem with mental pint of origin is that no man is an island, mans greatest need is meaning and having a purpose, eusociality demands it. Otherwise the group neural network (hive mind of eusociality) subtly whispers, kill yourself…

    Frame is important but is trumped by meaning and purpose.”

    Does anyone reading along really, truly believe this line of thinking?

    I’m asking not as a slight or jab, but this whole way of seeing life, like there are ZERO option except working within the dictates or society or ” others ” , framed in such terms as complying is the sole option?

    Y’all really believe this?

    Sure. I guess one can say that ” no man is an island “. And yup, a man needs meaning and purpose. But really, who says that a man must follow some socially conditioned script to have meaning and purpose? There’s the ” Wrong Turn ” right there imo.

    Self determination. Or no?

    Choices ( along with consequences ). No?

    What or Who is ” demanding ” things of a man?

    Man can always refuse demands, right? Of does he HAVE to think he never has options?

    That shit sounds awful.

    I think a man could make a choice to follow every dictate of society. Imo, it will lead to frustration and ruin, but a man can make that choice. Part of the reason for the sphere, or so I thought, was to get this understanding through to men. I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve read ” you must ” or ” you have no choice ” or ” social pressure makes you..” or something along these lines.

    One can volunteer for victimhood, right?

    Social pressures abound. You have a choice always.

    Ask me how I know and I will write 1,500 boring assed words about ” social pressure and people bowing to, or fighting against it “. Hint: I have to fight against it if I want any semblance of a life. If I were to bow down to much of the societal thought or pressure, I’d have to blow my fucking brains out. Lol, society is cool when understood and kept in a proper perspective.

    Perspective. Great word.

  43. @ SJF

    ” Frame is a hard thing to describe because your individual frame is precisely that: an individual frame. Your Frame is yours and yours alone. ”

    I agree.

    I’d love to go all prescriptive, and fight the urge to do so, precisely because of this point. Frame is individualistic.

    And not all frames are ” good ” for men, like the title of this essay reflects.

    But I think I have a workable formula, lol. I’ll just wait a while for other guys to weigh in and give me more to ponder.

  44. @sentient @scray

    You guys need to NOT comment on guys new to game. You two are a fucking train wreck.

    What are you doing? What is your intent in these bits? What do you look like? And do you wish to have sex with women?

    And for the love of Mystery get your hands on her early “thats a nice … Dress necklace tattoo etc” and touch her while being close and starting to laser. “Hey i like how your hair hangs down here” and brush her hair back. Etc.

    I have never had a gf. Never kissed a girl. Never touched a girl. Basically all this stuff it new to me. So i am doing these things for the first time, and its usually in an open venue, in front of lots people.

    My situ is very bad. I very rarely see girls that pass just the boner test. I don’t have many venues to go to. I have medical conditions that make me VERY tired all the time. I have bad internals. I always feel like people are going to jump out and kick me out — “RAPIST RAPIST RAPIST!”. I have tried to leave where I am for years and no matter what I have tried it never works. Still stuck here. Have no friends. Have no hobbies.

    So it takes enourmous willpower to do any of this shit. Once I can move to a better location, I am set. I can just walk down the street just about, see plenty of 5’s, open like 50 a fucking night. I can make more progress in 20min there than I have in months where I am now.

    But despite that fact, I am STILL going out. I am STILL trying and keep up the momentum and learn what I can.

    So to answer “What am I doing”

    I am doing what I can

    I get it…some of these chicks are low value AND on top of that can be difficult, but you really have to charge your ego to the game. just let it go, especially before you’ve fucked any chick.

    try to actively work on giving value and keeping a positive frame of mind.

    Did that for 30 some odd hours last few weeks. Hopped around bars chatting with people. Do it all the time at work, where I talk to customers 1+ hours. Last time I went to that same bookstore talked to a girl, about the same shit, for much longer. This day I had a bad start and this girl was especially nerdy, so that’s why I ejected.

    yeah, you need to roll off just a bit on your verbosity at the beginning. the type of stuff you’re doing belongs more in like A2 or C1. But you’re here circling around social hook point (where she decides she is cool spending some time talking with you — no that’s not just her standing there feeling like a captive audience)

    overgaming or investing too much at the wrong stage of interaction is a DLV.

    Was more ESL, so not much feedback. Was also working from a very negative headspace, so was doing what I could. Did a much better job the day before. Same sort of dialogue, but much more back and forth. Went to number close on her, but didn’t get it since she was about to leave the state.

    What would you do to push her into A2? I feel like the convo never really goes anywhere. The girl won’t really get into the convo until you push it forward. 90/10 rule and all that.

    lol Mr. Overgame can’t even pick up an opportunity for huge DHV and rapoort-building?

    The answer is YES, I am Ryan James

    and then make up a bunch of stories that CLEARLY DID NOT HAPPEN so that everyone realizes that you aren’t Ryan James.

    Again, you guys are dipshits. Where did I ever say I was a pro PUA? I am just getting started. You were spitting gold when you got started right scray? The motherfuck.

    When I am on a roll, I do that shit. Had a girl think I was an optometrists, I bullshitted that I was. Got on a topic of drugs with two set, girls thought I was a drug dealer, bullshitted that one as well and went on with how I was a drug dealer.

    Operative thing here was — tired, out of state, negative attitude. I was doing the best I could to just stick around and keep at it.

    is she always like this? (that’s a line for chicks who are giving YOU a hard time, not for chicks who embarrassed themselves to talk to you)

    DING DING DING. All you gotta say. That’s why I do this shit — even if I can’t make much progress, I can still internalize things like this. Did not know the only time you used the ‘is she always like this’ line was on difficult chicks — because like everything else — this was the first time I used that line.

    @asd

    Hank’s push/pulls were extreme. Not necessarily bad. Sure, they break a girl’s frame, but then you have to provide a LOT of comfort.

    Of course, this assumes that you are calibrating often and accurately, which lack of calibration was Hank’s main problem, which he stated.

    Was not even THINKING of gaming. Was just trying to open and keep at it to get over negative headspace. Was trying just not to quit and head home. So I wasn’t even considering optimal moves at this time. Even being opened by that girl caught me off guard.

    Also, have never had a girl be legit embarrassed by stuff like that. Girls have done similar things that she did, but it was a playful “OMG you are sooo ruudee. Stahhhp.”

    So, again, “What am I doing.” — well here I have reference of pushing things to far and knowing now to watch out for girls being legit embarrassed, so I can pull back some.

    Yet again, this was THE FIRST TIME I had seen this in field.

    just sit down next to her, put your arm around her when she’s embarassed ‘awww hey it happens to all of us….I think X is Ryan James all the time..’

    Ideal thing to do, but where I was at mentally it was enough to just talk to them. Good reference for next time, to know what I can do.

    you have to learn how to be more present and to think very quickly about where you’re at and what you need to do, exactly, to move yourself forward with the target.

    I do what I can, but as I said, I am usually very tired so I can’t think that quickly in the moment. As I keep going out and doing FRs, I can get more reference experiences and advice on what to do next time, so if things come up, I INSTANTLY recognize it and already have a plan for it.

    But seeing things for the first times makes it very unlikely I will be able to come up with something fast.

    I am also focused on escalating/sexualizing/number closing, which are all still very new to me, so I am more about just blazing forward and going for it so I can get past my resistance and fear of doing those things in daygame venues. When I get more used to it, I can stop and think more about what I am doing in the moment.

    generally, when a girl opens YOU, you really don’t need to tease her or whatever that much. at least not on the front end like you did lol

    See, once again, all that really needs to be said.

    @scrib

    Learning a lot from the responses. I think what I’m doing is leashing to much in A1, which is not a bad adjustment for me as I think I was not well calibrated. But now I go for the chill vibe too much, yet when I try a gambit to spike an HB, it always works better.

    Maybe. Even for where I am just starting out, I have jumped into sets with minimal dialogue. But I was very much in state. So, yeah, if you subcoms are awesome, then you don’t really have to do much else. But if you are coming from being tired, or you just got off work, you’ll probably have to do a little more to get the girl into you.

    That’s where I think scray and sentient are just so off. They can’t remember back to when they were getting started — and I KNOW scray was fucking shit when he got started lol, since I read those FRs awhile back.

    But now that they are better, they can’t remember the way they were back then. So scray goes on a lot about “You don’t need to talk” or “Just push forward.”

    That’s TECHNICALLY true, and good overall advice, but especially for not saying much, it only works if you have great subcomms. Otherwise, you are going to have to demonstrate value another way to get her into you.

    I feel he’s too used to having progressed to where he is now, where he’s internalized game and is ALWAYS doing it automatically. And he can’t relate back to people that AREN’T in that state all the time.

  45. If women are solipsistic, don’t they possess the ability to discover they lack the philosophical aptitude of a man? Wouldn’t a woman usually defer to a man who verbally defeats her time and time again, rationalizing it as ‘I’m with him, so it’s natural he’s better than me’?

  46. @blindone

    If women are solipsistic, don’t they possess the ability to discover they lack the philosophical aptitude of a man?

    If women were able to consider a POV other than their own, possibly. But then, they are solipsistic, lol.

  47. @hank

    You guys need to NOT comment on guys new to game. You two are a fucking train wreck.

    lol

    But despite that fact, I am STILL going out. I am STILL trying and keep up the momentum and learn what I can.

    k cool, that’s step one. i was there. that’s why I’m telling you what I’m telling you. I’d say the same thing back to myself!

    overgaming basically signals your inexperience which is why it quickly turns into a DLV.

    Did that for 30 some odd hours last few weeks. Hopped around bars chatting with people. Do it all the time at work, where I talk to customers 1+ hours

    Okay. do it some more. Do it until you rewire your thoughts to not react the way you do to the chicks who are lower value and give you a hard time.

    Was more ESL, so not much feedback

    Yes with chicks who speak-a-da english not so good you need to ROLL OFF the verbals and use the > 90% of communication that isn’t verbal to communicate the message. most of your communication is probably verbal and you probably are lacking in the other areas — -which is fine, that’s typical of guys who don’t have experience.

    Again, you guys are dipshits. Where did I ever say I was a pro PUA? I am just getting started. You were spitting gold when you got started right scray? The motherfuck.

    I’m just giving you advice.

    I wasn’t spitting gold. I overgamed, just like you. And you know what? I fucking tape recorded myself giving my openers and stacks over and over and over and over and over again until I had my subcomms solid. I recorded myself saying and behaving in every possible way until I figured out what was congruent to what I was feeling.

    While I was doing that, I’d also read during the week about PUA, and like you, I’d toss up FR’s and have people dissect them and give me advice.

    So relax, man. I’m trying to help.

    When I am on a roll, I do that shit.

    Yeah well even Joe Beta does that shit when he’s ‘on a roll.’ That’s primarily how they land women, when they ever land them at all. You don’t want to be that guy who has to rely on the stars aligning for him to get on a roll.

    I can go out rain or shine and make it happen. Fuck being on a roll. If I see a hot chick walking my way I can execute. That’s what the game is all about.

    Got on a topic of drugs with two set, girls thought I was a drug dealer, bullshitted that one as well and went on with how I was a drug dealer.

    that’s not the point. the reason you say you’re X isn’t to convince them you’re X…it’s just an easy way to

    – roleplay
    – rapport build
    – DHV social savvy and grace
    etc. etc.

    So here, you’d say you were Ryan James and you’d toss in some stuff about ‘you’re the real pretty girl who sat in the front row right? You always looked a little hungover — you party a little on Saturday. I like that, you want to have at least SOMETHING to confess when you walk into Sunday School — I get it…’

    now you’re cold reading her and building an image of you and her and relating to her like a man to a woman

    Did not know the only time you used the ‘is she always like this’ line was on difficult chicks — because like everything else — this was the first time I used that line.

    dude I know lol. You’re sort of spraying and praying with all of your game and your verbosity. I get it.

    what you need to do is just MEMORIZE a STACK and learn how to deliver that stack to every chick you meet.

    It should look like —>

    opener
    2 or 3 DHV stories/routines
    1 cold reading activity
    2 or 3 C&F routines
    1 or 2 ‘crowd control’ lines (for people who try to fuck with you, ex: ‘is she always like this?’ or another good one ‘who brought their little sister to the bar/mall/wherever?’

    just pound that stack into the goddamn ground.

    if you just keep with it, you’ll notice yourself start to get better at exercising discretion and editing shit on the fly in response to specific circumstances.

  48. @ hank

    Bro, you are doing what you can as a beginner, I think you are way ahead and getting better, especially as you post fr’s here and go through your thoughts.

    If I can, I offer something, but I’m not PUA. I think it’s absolutely key that you stood up for yourself and reminded all of us that would attempt to offer any help, of just where you are and what the situation is when you go out.

    scray may have needed just a little reminder, but trust that he is trying to help out. Sentient too, but he can have a big hammer so he swings a little harder, lol. Just remember, everyone here is on your side in this. Everyone has different personalities so appreciate this.

    Constructive criticism from people that give a shit about a ” name on a screen ” ( h/t YaReally ) is some golden shit man. Never take it personal in a negative fashion, but yeah, stand up for yourself. Everybody here can take it.

    Cats that go out in the field regularly are a tremendous resource to you. You are becoming one of them. You are already on the journey that they’ve taken. They are, in essence, your future. I’m confident in saying that because you are DETERMINED and WILLING.

    Shit. Hard to stop any man with those qualities.

    Fwiw, I admire that you are being active. I read everything you type. Digest what Ya and scray and Sentient are saying to you, not HOW they are saying it. They only want you to succeed.

    Finally, make sure that you look out for your health while blazing new trails. You are pushing, and that is some good, strong stuff – and you will get what you want eventually. Just take care of yourself in the process.

  49. @Hank

    Was not even THINKING of gaming. Was just trying to open and keep at it to get over negative headspace. Was trying just not to quit and head home.

    Then you achieved your mission goal. Congrats. The post-mortem is usually helpful, too. “What was a good follow-up to X situation?”

    Julian’s vid showed an example of providing comfort, like I suggested, without the lasering and halting speech. Julian wanted to keep the woman moving. If he stopped, it would be as easy to start back as to continue to the “afterparty”.

    Julian vid showed the woman throwing shit tests frequently because Julian’s frame wasn’t boss level and the woman had doubts about his ability to control things and provide a good outcome.

    At some point you want to slip from direct to indirect game, so that the woman chases you. In Julian’s vid, Julian was constantly chasing the woman. That sucks. Julian’s great at handling shit tests, but he reacts defensively too often. These are common situations that the woman is throwing at Julian and handling them should be little effort for someone with Julian’s expertise. Beginners, not so much.

    Julian did a masterful job of dealing with the cameraman.

  50. @hank

    What would you do to push her into A2? I feel like the convo never really goes anywhere. The girl won’t really get into the convo until you push it forward. 90/10 rule and all that.

    yes 90/10 but proportionate to the stage in the interaction.

    so on the initial meet, think of yourself like a 5-20 second tagline. you invest a few seconds of being cool and awesome, and then you ROLL OFF and let her take a bite. now if after you ROLL OFF she’s still lukewarm, you can take a second and try again (probably shorter) and then if she’s still not digging it….roll out.

    you can linger if you want but it’s usually not worth it, esp if you’re not that experienced.

    now, how do we get past the social hook point?

    always be thinking about VALUE.

    who do people want to hang out with?

    people who give them VALUE.

    so for example, if you come at her and ask her for the time…it’s at the very least an opener, but you’re coming over and TAKING value. unless your subcomms are rock solid and you can bring a lot of more passive value, you’re not going to move yourself much toward the social hook point.

    but let’s say you roll up and say ‘oh you’re looking at this, there’s a special on those right now….’

    that’s VALUE you just added to her life.

    and then you can follow it up with ‘…but i wouldn’t pick that one, it doesn’t go with your skin tone…’ oh shit, now you’ve just jumped straight into A2 and relating to her like a man to a woman and leading and blah blah blah.

    you want to move into A2 and you don’t want to have to rely on your passive characteristics? BRING VALUE bring good info.

    or the chick with the manga, you could have talked to her about manga. she obviously LOVES it. people with hobbies that are weird like that are passionate about them and love to TELL PEOPLE about them….

    ….so you can give VALUE easily there by just LISTENING to her talk about it.

    now you look high value to everyone watching because she’s just passionately spilling her guts to you about whatever and you’re just standing there, nodding, smirking….

    but FIRST THING IS FIRST

    you need to GET IN A POSITIVE, VALUE-GIVING MINDSET

  51. Dancing and emotional impact FR

    Last night an early-20s woman (HB6) I danced with remembered dancing with me months before. I had made an emotional impact on her simply by dancing with her. Once.

    Another early-20s girl (HB6) I danced with last night gave me a hug. And wanted a pic of her and me. So I played standoffish briefly when she was doing some dilatory shit and then I pulled her in and she leaned her head on my shoulder. Some guy with her group said that she was talking about me all night. Hyperbole, but I made an impact.

    Several other girls wanted hugs after I danced with them.

    Dancing produces an emotional impact on girls that lasts.

    Some dude asked for advice after an HB7 opened him. The same broad was trying to get my attention, lol. It was late and she was looking for a good time.

    An HB8 was continually trying to get my attention all night. It was simply a validation move on her part.

  52. @hank holiday
    “You guys need to NOT comment on guys new to game. You two are a fucking train wreck.”

    lol’ed

    “I have never had a gf. Never kissed a girl. Never touched a girl. Basically all this stuff it new to me. So i am doing these things for the first time, and its usually in an open venue, in front of lots people.”

    Both of those guys have more of a Natural mindset (regardless of how they got there) so it’s harder to relate to your situation because you’re just frustrating…like “just DO it man!!” But I remember that stage clearly and a lot of my game is still (purposely) conscious infield, that’s why I’m focusing more on getting you to sharpen the game aspect more than the actually-get-laid aspect right now. ’cause you’ll get to a real city at some point and then you’ll already have solid game structure to start from.

    Like, you could put me in a room full of nothing but 500lbs whales and I’m not gonna fuck them, but I can practice all SORTS of game on them. Jealousy plotlines, merging sets, qualifying them, instigating and passing shit-tests, laser eye-contact and cutting space to build sexual tension, dealing with bad state, purposely blowing the set to try to recover, seeing what I can get them to do for me, push/pull, leading, building deep rapport, etc etc And if there’s dudes there even better, tons of AMOG and rapport-building and networking and shit to practice.

    And all of those skills are the same skills I’m going to use when I’m put in a room with a bunch of hot girls…there’d be an adjustment as the shellshock of engaging actual hot girls instead of 500lbs whales hits me at first, but that won’t take long to push through when most of my game is already running on auto-pilot from gaming the whale pool.

    “Operative thing here was — tired, out of state, negative attitude. I was doing the best I could to just stick around and keep at it.”

    All good man. You’re doing what you can with your situation and you’re doing a helluva lot more than 99% of guys would do in your situation. 99% of guys would make victim excuses to just not go out at all and complain and wait until the day they’re in a big city to even START learning the skillset. And you’re taking way more action infield than I did even though I started out in a big city with access to girls…like I spent more time infield choding around scared to talk to anyone my first year as a newbie than you do in your shitty city/venues. I went OUT a lot but that doesn’t mean I was tearing up 50 sets a night every night lol I can’t even count the number of nights I went out and didn’t open a single set or maybe half-ass opened one set, and went home kicking myself feeling like a piece of shit loser lol

    This is a slow process. This shit can take years to get down solid. It’s worth it in the long-run and the effects spill over into the rest of your life, but depending on your situation the start can be rough and slow. That’s why I’m pushing you to focus on networking and dropping comments about having to drive up to guys in the big city etc, ’cause I’m looking for ways to get you out of that shitty city (or find you a ride to split or a place to crash etc) to where you’ll have more opportunity and enjoy the process more.

    Personally I would rather work as a janitor at a McDonald’s making just enough to afford rent/food in some tiny cheap apartment sleeping on a mattress on the ground, than live in a city with so few options. Like I don’t know if you’re holding out for a certain type of job/career (and don’t tell us details ’cause privacy and all that) or applying for just anything right now, but if you’re holding out definitely consider taking some bullshit job in the big city that can cover rent/food. You can keep applying for a better job from there, but at least day to day you’d be in a better situation than now.

    Otherwise buckle in for the long haul and focus on the stuff you CAN practice infield, like you’re doing. And don’t sweat not fucking gross 4s lol There’s no way you’re going to live where you live for the rest of your life, at SOME POINT you’re going to find a way to get the fuck out of there to a better city and THEN I’ll hassle you to bang a decent-enough 6. And when you DO run into the occasional 7 there, Field Report that shit up if it doesn’t lead to a lay and we’ll figure out where to tighten your game up.

    “But seeing things for the first times makes it very unlikely I will be able to come up with something fast.”

    Don’t sweat it, this is just the process of learning the game. I liken it to trying to chase after someone riding their bike. At first you’re only gonna keep pace with them for a few steps and then lose it, then the next time you’re gonna run with them a bit longer before they leave you in the dust, then you might keep pace with them for a block before you run out of steam and watch them zoom off, etc etc but over time you get further and further and sooner or later they’re gonna run out of steam before you do lol

    “But I was very much in state.”

    State, as you’re finding out, makes a HUGE difference. Things you can get away with in state fall flat out of state and things that seem like they’d never work out of state fly like mad in state. Hitting state is when you’re basically unstifled and radiating good subcomms, which is why I always stress the subcomms making the difference stuff.

    Tyler has a lot of stuff on getting into state (like his Six Steps vids) because he has to do it robotically/systematically just ’cause of how his brain works and the amount of mind-numbing business-end work he does outside of pickup (and then has to go perform insane feats for some guy who paid thousands for a bootcamp, no pressure lol, so he HAD to come up with ways to force himself into state).

    But it’s VERY hard to do when there are basically no girls around to build momentum off, or, even if you can build momentum, no girls you’re into to even DO anything with that momentum. Once you’re in a better location with more girls, you’ll be able to tear shit up left and right.

    “and I KNOW scray was fucking shit when he got started lol, since I read those FRs awhile back.”

    lolol Scray turned into way more of a Natural than I was expecting from his first posts. But ya, he needed to go through a lot of shit to get there. Everyone does. And most people have a much better setup than you (like scribbler with his coffee shop full of cuties, scray with his social circles that hit up big city venues etc) This is all just the process. Location is your biggest issue right now, but the fact that you’re not letting it hold you back from even going out to TRY is part of why I look forward to your FRs and watching your progress.

    ’cause you’re showing more dedication to the skillset (whether it’s out of boredom or enthusiasm, when you’re talking to actual HOT girls it’ll turn INTO enthusiasm) than most newbies who look for any excuse NOT to go out and try…”ohhh, my haircut isn’t nice, I don’t want to go out to that mall full of hot girls that hank holiday would KILL to have access to” “ohhh the weather is kind of cloudy, I don’t want to go to that nightclub 10 minutes away that has 300 hot girls in it that hank holiday would drag himself through waist-deep snow to get to” lol like I don’t care why you’re taking action, the action you’re taking is going to make you fucking GOOD at this shit when you’re finally let loose in a real city.

    “That’s TECHNICALLY true, and good overall advice, but especially for not saying much, it only works if you have great subcomms. Otherwise, you are going to have to demonstrate value another way to get her into you.”

    Right. Once you GET solid subcomms it becomes harder to relate to guys who don’t have good subcomms…because what they’re saying IS true, you DO “just go for it” and “just do it” and “don’t worry about what you say” etc. But the process to get from near-virgin newbie territory to being able to “just go for it” can be a long process and there are reference experiences you’ll need to gain that help your subcomms and mental states and make “just be yourself” suddenly become good advice instead of frustrating fluff.

    Like ultimately pickup DOES come down to “just be yourself” when you come full-circle. It’s just that when you’re starting out that shit doesn’t mean ANYTHING helpful because “yourself” is a fucked up socially conditioned version of yourself, not your ACTUAL self that shines through when you’re in state lol The REAL you is you when you’re in state. THAT’S hank holiday. The guy between moments of being in state is the social conditioned hank holiday. Right now Scray comes off like he pretty much lives and breathes being in state, which is awesome for him and I’m happy as fuck to see that, but it makes it harder to give relatable advice to guys still struggling.

    On top of that some guys relate more to the drill sergeant “c’mon you pussy DO IT” pushing than the logical “well, here’s the reasons it’s a good idea to do it, but you decide what you want to do with that” coaching. I hate the drill sergeant stuff personally, it just gets my back up and makes me want to do the opposite of whatever they’re telling me, out of rebellious instinct. But a LOT of guys relate to the drill sergeant style and it’s faster to teach that way VS explain everything step by step and slowly coach a guy through it.

    @verbarglaucus
    “Wouldn’t a woman usually defer to a man who verbally defeats her time and time again, rationalizing it as ‘I’m with him, so it’s natural he’s better than me’?”

    This is most of the girls that fall in love with me lol They spend enough time around me and I always one-up them and because of solipsism and social validation they’re fed, that THEY’RE the smartest person in the world, so when I out-wit them verbally or present something that mindfucks them or clarifies some shit that confused them, they assume that since they’re the smartest person in the world and run circles around every other dude who falls into their frame and lets them always be right, but they can’t seem to get one over on ME, then I must be the SUPER smartest person in the world lol

    I’m not even doing anything amazing. I just have solid improv skills and “always have a better answer” from going out a lot and being shit-tested a ton and developing a strong frame in conversations etc. Craig Ferguson is a good example of always having better verbals/social calibration than the girls. Pretty much every hot actress on his show falls for him during their interviews because he’s always just slightly more clever than them.

    It’s not NECESSARY at all though. Like, you don’t NEED to have high-level verbals to get Attraction. But it does cause a snowball hamster rationalization effect in girls’ minds that help trigger Hypergamy.

    @scray
    “Okay. do it some more. Do it until you rewire your thoughts to not react the way you do to the chicks who are lower value and give you a hard time. ”

    lol he IS man. It’s just a slow process. Hank is literally the only one who’s been consistently doing up Field Reports here though, like every thread I see multiple FRs from him. Dude is hitting the pavement out there as much as he can.

    “Yes with chicks who speak-a-da english not so good you need to ROLL OFF the verbals and use the > 90% of communication that isn’t verbal to communicate the message. most of your communication is probably verbal and you probably are lacking in the other areas — -which is fine, that’s typical of guys who don’t have experience.”

    This. I LOVE verbals so I hate ESL gaming lol But when you run into ESL or complete other languages or nightclubs too loud to talk in etc, you gotta have them subcomms on lockdown.

    @Blaximus @hank holiday
    “I think it’s absolutely key that you stood up for yourself and reminded all of us that would attempt to offer any help, of just where you are and what the situation is when you go out.”

    This. Their advice could have been delivered in a less “tough love” way more calibrated to your situation/struggles, it’s fair to point that out and say lay off a bit. I’ve been following your posts for a while now and I’ve known guys in similar shitty location situations so I’m calibrating what I say to you to be more of a casual coaching thing.

    The reality is you’re making progress in pretty much every Field Report. Like every FR has some new epiphany or analysis or interaction surprise or sticking point you bump into etc. That’s all good shit, that’s the process right there.

    “Just remember, everyone here is on your side in this. Everyone has different personalities so appreciate this.”

    lol ya, they ARE trying to help. But it’s also fair to say like “look I don’t respond well to that kind of coaching, this shit is hard enough as it is without getting made fun of for not being a pro already, that kind of shit is just fucking me up more” and hoping they can calibrate a bit to that.

    I mean, this is all part of learning where your boundaries are and getting used to enforcing them etc Blaximus might not be able to consciously describe all the dynamics BEHIND that, but he can spot the overall jist of it and respects it because he “just gets” male interaction as a Natural alpha dude who’s probably seen a lot of guys learn to stand up for their boundaries as they grow.

    “Constructive criticism from people that give a shit about a ” name on a screen ” ( h/t YaReally ) is some golden shit man.”

    lol nothing against any of you when I call you that. It’s just better for me to stay as neutral as possible when I’m laying down brain-dumps on pickup topics. If I had a bunch of “but I LIKE this guy, I don’t want to call him out on this inaccurate shit” or “fuck this guy, no matter what he says I’m going to disagree with him because he’s an asshole” etc drama rattling around in my head it might eventually taint the advice I give and then it’s off into the hugbox and clique mentality we go.

    I’ll call out Rollo, Blaximus, Scray, etc if they say something that doesn’t align with the field and/or that I think will hold men back, but at the same time I’ll give props to Fleezer, gb_hill, hell even Roosh himself, if what they’re saying aligns with the field and/or I think it’ll help men. Zero fucks given, my focus is an accurate knowledge-base because that knowledge-base is going to live on longer than any of us or our squabbles/friendships. Some newbie AFC is going to be reading this in some obscure internet archive in 3016 and whether we’re BFFs or not isn’t going to matter to him, what’s going to matter is accurately understanding how to pass a shit-test lol

    “Fwiw, I admire that you are being active. I read everything you type.”

    Ditto. I don’t always have time to reply to each Field Report but I read them all and try to drop in notes when you bump into notable infield events.

    Also Scray’s breakdown he just posted of 90/10 giving value is solid. BUT if you’re a guy who likes a lot of verbal wordplay and subtle sarcasm/innuendo/frame-reversal (acting like old guys check you out stealing the frame of a hot girl etc) (like it sounds like hank is, I know I’m that way), them ESL chicks will fuck all that shit up…and then YOU feel dumb because what you said was hilarious/gold but you know THEY don’t get it and think you’re retarded and there goes the self-conscious spiral lol ESL convos are torture to me.

    @theasdgamer
    “Julian vid showed the woman throwing shit tests frequently because Julian’s frame wasn’t boss level and the woman had doubts about his ability to control things and provide a good outcome.”

    Ya it’s funny because Julien’s game isn’t even that good in his Shift infields. A lot of it is uncalibrated and reactive. And yet he’s still pulling like crazy because he’s still following an overall strategy that says “lead her out of the club, now lead her up the street, now lead her into a cab, now squash her “I’m not going to your afterparty” shit-tests” etc etc. For all the fight that girl put up, after the lay her hamster rationalizes that she’s happy you plowed and starts to chase you because her hamster has to find ways to rationalize why she slept with you lol

    A girl like that has a strong frame too, which is why it’s a good example. Like, when she stops to call her frame and gets all serious tone about it, no one is plowing THAT frame over. But she’s a girl with a shitload of male attention and orbiters feeding into her frame since she was a kid, whereas Julien is a guy who’s just learned to even HAVE a solid frame in his 20s.

    Most girls won’t put up that kind of massive testing, but she’s doing it because she WANTS him to pass all the tests, ultimately. She’s just skeptical that he CAN because he slips up here and there. IN the club, in the initial interaction where he carried her from the dance floor to the back room and passed all her tests, he was slaying it and she thought he was amazing (“……..so is that really your name?” after he just holds the silence leaning back is the point where she was fully won over). But once he went for the actual pull, he got more outcome dependent and reactive. I’m sure having a camera on you affects your outcome dependence and shit on top of it all, but like, the way she treated him inside the club VS outside has clear differences and it’s because INSIDE the club his frame was rock solid.

    “Julian did a masterful job of dealing with the cameraman.”

    That blew my mind lol And yet, from some of the stuff I’ve gotten away with infield I could see pulling that off. THAT’S a good example of frame control. Where he just dominates her frame about the guy and makes her disregard him and changes subjects and she follows his frame that the guy is just some random creeper instead of logically digging for more information on the weird situation.

    @theasdgamer
    “What are C&F routines? I’m sure I’m the only dummy here who has that question, it being so obvious and all, lol.”

    Can’t tell if you’re trolling now lol You know how to Google 😉

  53. @wala

    “A few girls in my rotation have said or alluded to me banging other girls. I never say yes or no. But a scarcity mentality pops in once in a while and I worry if it’s a turn off for them”

    I’ve gotten this from a girl I been seeing recently. She is 18 and a virgin (allegedly) and was initially really interested in how many people I’ve fucked. To which I told her some absurd number. Then claimed to be a virgin. She believed neither. Kept asking though. How do you respond when a girl persistently asks you that question? It was only for the first week I knew her but still. After the first couple of times I just said I don’t kiss and tell. I didn’t know how else to respond, just knew not to directly answer her.

  54. Hank

    Feel better? Got it out of your system now? Good.

    Here is the real deal… no pussy is going to to plop onto your dick because you did the hard work… it only will when you’ve done the right work.

    It is a brutally hard concept to digest for most… not just in game or sexual relations but in life in general… There are no participation awards that will mean anything to anyone at the end of the day.

    So take whatever comments I may make (and I’ve held off on most of your Fr’s) with this reality in mind. The same things I will say to my own children. The same reality I’ve dealt with my entire life.

    Get tough, get mad.. whatever.. but focus on doing the right work… and it will be hard, it may seem impossible… but there is only one way to succeed.

    So with that in mind, I do wish you well. everything I mention above to you is true and are the issues you need to work through… touching women foremost on your list of things to do… Conquer your deepest fears, fail forward fast! This is the only way to succeed…

    So yeah.. you can open women… Now what? work on that!

    Good luck…!

  55. Thanks Rollo for all you do and your thought leadership.

    oh and Happy Independence Day!

    I feel that Blue Pill frame and Red Pill awareness is the worst and why we get so many suicides, apathy and MGTOW. It’s tragic to KNOW what is going on and being unable to change your circumstance.

    A big change in my life happened when I realized that I don’t have to subordinate my needs as a male. In our feminized society we are told to not date a woman just for the prospect of sex. We are told not to expect devotion and deference.

    But in reality men need these things. So, a man has no choice but to expect that behavior from women. And if that means that 90% of the women in your particular area of the western world are not meeting your needs. So be it. Just because a woman is there does not mean you need to put up with her not fulfilling your needs as a man while she is fulfilling her needs as a woman.

    Nice Guy Syndrome

    You know the Nice Guy he’s even got a reddit sub. Where all kinds of man haters and other people just love to make fun of the “be nice and expect reciprocity”. What is funny on this sub there is an interesting dynamic when a Nice Guy has the audacity to speak a Red Pill truth.

    Red Pill truths like treat a woman like a princess get duped, treat a woman like dirt get her in bed. But it’s the “dishonesty” that Nice Guys get ridiculed for. No woman believes that Man just wants to date for companionship and friendship. Oh No women don’t for a minute believe that.

    So since it’s not believed that Man will just be Nice. Don’t be. Be honest, Brutally honest. State your needs early and often. And what you will discover is that the honesty moves more women into your frame than not.

  56. @ Ang Aamer

    ” So since it’s not believed that Man will just be Nice. Don’t be. Be honest, Brutally honest. State your needs early and often. And what you will discover is that the honesty moves more women into your frame than not.”

    Agreed.

    But if a guy decides that he is happier being ” nice “, then he should be that. The understanding is that women do not appreciate overly nice guys.

    They finish last.

    I am a supporter of men being honest. The ” brutal ” part is optional…but workable. One can go too far in either direction – too nice or prick. Reserve the brutality, lol, for when someone is trying to take advantage or use you. Catch them at the start and back that stuff down. Then, keep smiling…

    Guys need to understand what a woman sees when she sees ” nice guy “. You may come off as auditioning for a chair at the friendzone table. So don’t be so friendly as to get those wheels turning in her head.

    The reason I say these things is, if a guy is comfortable and naturally nice, he might just revert back to that condition under stress ( or shit tests ). Then you look all kinds of incongruent to her. Then, the trouble starts.

    Motto: be mostly nice until it’s time to be ” not nice “.

  57. @yareally

    Personally I would rather work as a janitor at a McDonald’s making just enough to afford rent/food in some tiny cheap apartment sleeping on a mattress on the ground, than live in a city with so few options. Like I don’t know if you’re holding out for a certain type of job/career (and don’t tell us details ’cause privacy and all that) or applying for just anything right now, but if you’re holding out definitely consider taking some bullshit job in the big city that can cover rent/food. You can keep applying for a better job from there, but at least day to day you’d be in a better situation than now.

    Its more of an issue of GETTING there. I don’t have anywhere near enough money to make the trip out to the places I have in mind to move too. So I need to save up money just for the trip, and to have some money to live off of until I can get a job there.

    at SOME POINT you’re going to find a way to get the fuck out of there to a better city and THEN I’ll hassle you to bang a decent-enough 6. And when you DO run into the occasional 7 there, Field Report that shit up if it doesn’t lead to a lay and we’ll figure out where to tighten your game up.

    That;s not really an issue lol. My 6 is generally most people’s 7 or even an 8. And like I said before, pretty sure I am a PoS guy (and that’s Pleasure of Sex for people not familiar. Not being emo, lol) for anything 5 or above in most cases, and probably even a 4 in some cases.

    Its just a) never had sex or made out, so I just go by how they look to get turned on. A lot of these girls I’m sure would still be pretty awesome, I just don’t have any experience making out or fucking to have that in mind — its just what they look like and b) don’t often see girls I like, so I am really paranoid of getting rejected. In a city where I can game tons of girls, if I bang a, lol, 4 lets say, and she;s totally unimpressed and says my dick is tiny. Lol, who cares, I’ll just get another one. But where I am at mentally now, where I don’t HAVE those other girls, having that 4 degrade me would be devistating. So I am a lot picker (but still not that picky) now, given my inexperience and location.

    Tyler has a lot of stuff on getting into state (like his Six Steps vids)

    will look at these

    But it’s VERY hard to do when there are basically no girls around to build momentum off, or, even if you can build momentum, no girls you’re into to even DO anything with that momentum. Once you’re in a better location with more girls, you’ll be able to tear shit up left and right.

    well maybe not lol. And its the guys too. Thats the issue with the bars. The one I was going to was okay, and I spent a lot of time talking to people, but I don’t really like those people. It isn’t that I don’t like talking to people — I very much do — but the people around here don’t have my same interests. So its work to do it and I got burnt out of it.

    Its the same with that food example. Yeah, I love to talk to people — but not so much when I am starving to death. When I have girls I can talk to that I like, and I get a number here and there, then fuck I am good. I’ll chat with who the fuck ever the rest of the day.

    First day I went to the bar, got asian 7’s number early on. So talked with people for 5 more hours. Fine, enjoyed it.

    Another time, got the asian 5’s number later — and chatted with 3 other asians as well. Then went out downtown and jumped into a bunch of random sets.

    But I have just gotten worn out because I need that interaction with girls to be like “Okay, had a snack, I’m not starving anymore. So I can go work on other stuff.” Whereas before then I just can’t make myself care. I isn’t a base NEED to talk to these people. So that in and of itself won’t motivate me. But make some progress with a girl, and then, okay, sure why not.

    “’cause you’re showing more dedication to the skillset (whether it’s out of boredom or enthusiasm, when you’re talking to actual HOT girls it’ll turn INTO enthusiasm)”

    Mmm, not really sure. Its more of I know where I am at mentally, and I know I have spent the better part of the past decade being stuck in my room, just trying to get through another day without killing myself. Being in that state for so long without really enjoying anything has almost completely used up all my energy. So I know I have to keep working on this stuff to progress, because pretty much I either work this out or I kill myself. That’s pretty much the only way it will end. I’m very low on energy left, so I have to just KEEP going out to keep going.

    Thats where I have gotten frazzled lately. Trying to make things work in daygame venues, which don’t really work. Getting that sexualizing down, jumping into stores that I wouldn’t go into, that’s something that I need a place with lots of girls to do. So I just openopenopen, and if nothing else, but sheer numbers I WILL get numbers, and eventually one of those WILL go to my day 2. So I could spend the whole day just going around the stores — and go to all of them, since pretty much all of them will have at least one girl I like — and just approach 50-100 girls. That FIRST day I would make huge progress, and would have a very positive view of the place. Next time I go, I could just have fun socializing. Get to know people there.

    Where I am at though, I can’t do that. There aren’t many people to approach. I don’t have those numbers to juts go ‘Okay, open this girl. Ehh, that sucked. lol, whatever, open this one. Yeah, still not feeling it. That’s okay, do this girl. Whoo. Sexualized a little bit, but . . . to faggy. Lol, think she thinks I am actually a gay. Now this girl. Better. Made huge progress on sexualizing. Unfortunately girl didn’t agree and maced me. Lol. That’s okay, now joke with this girl about it.’

    Ina place like that you can just gogogo without thinking, get the positive reference experiences, and you’re good. But here it takes too long to get a few openings, so I get NEGATIVE experiences, have MORE PRESSURE to do better next time, and get more PARANOID that people are like ‘why is that creepy guy always here.’ Which makes me less confident, more worried, which makes me more likeley to ACTUALLY be creepy.

    Its the sort of thing that in a better location, yeah, what I am dong is awesome. One day, literally just one day there, and I would be good on opening in daygame venues and sexualizing — not that I would do it WELL, but that I would be okay doing it and would do those things anytime I had the chance.

    most newbies who look for any excuse NOT to go out and try…”ohhh, my haircut isn’t nice, I don’t want to go out to that mall full of hot girls that hank holiday would KILL to have access to” “ohhh the weather is kind of cloudy, I don’t want to go to that nightclub 10 minutes away that has 300 hot girls in it that hank holiday would drag himself through waist-deep snow to get to” lol like I don’t care why you’re taking action, the action you’re taking is going to make you fucking GOOD at this shit when you’re finally let loose in a real city.

    Very much this. I have shitty clothes, I have a good sized hole in the crotch of my pants and on my ass, have had really long hairs hanging out of my nose somedays when I went out, have had a crazy neckbeard thing going on from not shaving, etc etc. That stuff doesn’t bother me. I am actually dissapointed when girls DON’T make fun of me for it, because that is what I am good at

    Like how I talk about how my old ass phone is an authentic caveman phone, or I have long nose hair because I am starting a new style of nose hair dreadlocks. That kind of one-one-one teasing/bullying is funny to me — I usually don’t get upset at all if people cal me out on it. I just have an issue with more group rejection, the more subtle kind where people don’t relly say anything, they just avoid you and give you looks. THAT I can’t deal with as well, and its what I talk about being worried when I go out that people are going to call me out on gaming girls and kick me out of the venue.

    I hate the drill sergeant stuff personally, it just gets my back up and makes me want to do the opposite of whatever they’re telling me, out of rebellious instinct.

    Yup. Don’t mind it in certain cases though. Once I get in a place where I can game easily, then PLEASE DO call me out on my bullshit if it comes up. Just not so much right now where I am very limited in what I do. I WANT to do more and physcally escalate and shit, its just I need more opprtunities to practice before I can make a big step like that and risk major fuckups.

    most of your communication is probably verbal and you probably are lacking in the other areas — -which is fine, that’s typical of guys who don’t have experience.

    I do have good nonverbals, at least some of the time, I just don’t have the confidence to do a whole approach with them. I get lots of IOIS and situs I could push further easier — the french girl, the serbian milf, the white girl in the video store, the blakc girl out in the mall. All these girls I was in solid A2 with and could easily go to A3 and number close or instadate. I just either a)didn’t like them that much and/or b) just didn’t go for it. So I am getting IOIs a lot of time mostly from nonverbals, I just need to get more practice to push further with it. I prematurly eject A LOT of times.

    Also Scray’s breakdown he just posted of 90/10 giving value is solid. BUT if you’re a guy who likes a lot of verbal wordplay and subtle sarcasm/innuendo/frame-reversal (acting like old guys check you out stealing the frame of a hot girl etc) (like it sounds like hank is, I know I’m that way), them ESL chicks will fuck all that shit up…and then YOU feel dumb because what you said was hilarious/gold but you know THEY don’t get it and think you’re retarded and there goes the self-conscious spiral lol ESL convos are torture to me.

    Very much this. Again, I can do the nonverbal stuff . . . when I get more confidence. But my verbal game tends to be that kind of stuff that ESL chicks won’t pick up on and will go ‘What” . . . and a lot of times these are girls that were at least somewhat interested in me, but the verbals throw them off and confuse them. So I feel like I did something wrong, when really it was mostly that they just didn’t pick up on what I was saying.

    @scray
    that’s not the point. the reason you say you’re X isn’t to convince them you’re X…it’s just an easy way to

    – roleplay
    – rapport build
    – DHV social savvy and grace
    etc. etc.

    So here, you’d say you were Ryan James and you’d toss in some stuff about ‘you’re the real pretty girl who sat in the front row right? You always looked a little hungover — you party a little on Saturday. I like that, you want to have at least SOMETHING to confess when you walk into Sunday School — I get it…’

    now you’re cold reading her and building an image of you and her and relating to her like a man to a woman

    That’s what I did. Play along and get more ridiculous as I went on. Optomestrist girl figured out I was lying when she asked where I went to school. Hesistated, she said

    “You aren’t and optomestrist! You would say where you went right away.”

    “Girl, I learned optometry IN THE STREETS.”

    And went from there, just joking around. Now, I can be more conscious about it next time, and do more roleplay and cold reads and shit, but most times theres a misunderstanding like that I just make it into a funny moment like that.

    what you need to do is just MEMORIZE a STACK and learn how to deliver that stack to every chick you meet.

    It should look like —>

    opener
    2 or 3 DHV stories/routines
    1 cold reading activity
    2 or 3 C&F routines
    1 or 2 ‘crowd control’ lines (for people who try to fuck with you, ex: ‘is she always like this?’ or another good one ‘who brought their little sister to the bar/mall/wherever?’

    just pound that stack into the goddamn ground.

    This I can look into more. Problem was some of my original ideas . . .din’t work well. So I need new ones. I’ve found the ones that work better are ones that actually happened, like my DHV of how I went to a wine bar and everyone liked me and bought me lots of wine and I felt like a hot chick since everyone was buying me drinks and trying to get in my pants (again, to yareally, like to flip the script).

    Its just I have found that TRYING to do routines or whatever has messed me up. So I need to get more comfortable in doing just a regular convo on the fly, and dropping these things as they come up.

    Issue is too many of these things are hard to remember and mess me up in set. If I could prectice more, I could get lots of reference experience and know what to do and what not to. But given where I am at, its hard to get practice with these things.

    @blax

    Finally, make sure that you look out for your health while blazing new trails. You are pushing, and that is some good, strong stuff – and you will get what you want eventually. Just take care of yourself in the process.

    Can’t deal with health issues until I get a better job, so stuck with them for the time being.

    @scray

    so on the initial meet, think of yourself like a 5-20 second tagline. you invest a few seconds of being cool and awesome, and then you ROLL OFF and let her take a bite. now if after you ROLL OFF she’s still lukewarm, you can take a second and try again (probably shorter) and then if she’s still not digging it….roll out.

    you can linger if you want but it’s usually not worth it, esp if you’re not that experienced.

    Okay, Happened with earlier manga girl. Chatted with her a bit . . . and got a kind of resistance. Subtle, like in the air. Wasn’t in her body lanaguge. Then I stepped back to look at some books and she immediately opened me again “So what are you loking for here.” I see what you are saying.

    If I can get some more of that stack worked out, I can have some polished openers and stuff to say. It would make it easier to open then — just do opener pretty much regardless of situ (tho OFC I can bring in stuff in that situ, like comment on clothes and stuff, but at this point just need to open regardles of how well calibrated). Would help in opening girls I don’t like — just go through the setup in autopilot. Won’t be idea, but will still get me practice and more social. Much easier to get motivate to do when I don’t have to think to open uggo, and when its more a part of a bigger goal. Just don’t close on her, but maybe pivot on her to other girls or social network. Well see — hard to do in my situ. But I will work on it.

    but FIRST THING IS FIRST

    you need to GET IN A POSITIVE, VALUE-GIVING MINDSET

    Yeah that’s the issue. Don’t have things to pump me up or have fun. Don’t have friends or hobbies. So its very difficult to ‘Just be positive bro.’ That said, it really only takes one decent open and number clothes to get me pumped up to where I WILL open pretty much everyone. But that one number close is very hard to get where I am.

    @sentient

    Here is the real deal… no pussy is going to to plop onto your dick because you did the hard work… it only will when you’ve done the right work.

    Yeah, that’s my issue. I WANT to practice and work a bunch and get good. Plan to spend my whole life working on this shit. Its just, where I live, I CAN”T practice, or at least its very difficult.

    I would love to approach and get shot down by a bunch of 7-10’s because holy shit, there are actually attractive girls. Lol, I have no problem going to nightclubs and pushing my boundaries and shit.

    Thing is, there are 0 (count ’em, zero) nightclubs anywhere near where I live. And there are very few venues otherwise. Give me a place where I can practice a bunch and sure, I will do all those things. But where I am at I can’t really do that so progress is slow. Which is obsenely frustrtating since I could solve all these issues in a single night in a different location. And the longer I go without major progress, the more negative thoughts I have and the harder it gets to push boundaries.

    So I would LOVE to work my ass off. But there aren’t places TOO work my ass off. So that is my frustration — I can’t to the hard work OR the right work.

  58. YaReally

    “Externalization CAUSES you to change your internals. That’s what you don’t get, because …. blah, blah blah (some made up shit about me) blah blah.”

    Yes – that’s what I said, and what I have been saying all along … externalization causes you to change your internals …… which ….. wait for it ….. is the real change!.

    Hahaha! – you funny – man.

  59. I’m sitting out the looks matter battle on nose hair, and please please do not post pictures

  60. if a guy is comfortable and naturally nice, he might just revert back to that condition under stress ( or shit tests ).

    In another part of my world it’s said thus:

    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your training

    That means a man needs to be trained to deal with (whatever) to the point that it is an unconscious response. Unconscious competence…and that includes visualization, self-talk, “if this then that” mental drills for them that didn’t get the Natural memo.

    Then you look all kinds of incongruent to her. Then, the trouble starts.

    Very important. The fitness tests are not the trouble. Trouble, real trouble, starts when the fitness tests are failed, when a man looks incongruent. That’s when the real drilling begins, something like a dentist looking for an abcess.

  61. @ hank

    Have you ever bought condoms or practiced putting them on? Ever bring them with you anywhere, like keep one in your pocket or your car or something? Put them on and masturbate into them and get used to how they feel? Get a fleshlight or make a makeshift one, put a condom on and pretend you’re fucking a girl?

    Just buying condoms and using them and having them feel normal in your life can be a huge help. Getting a fleshlight was a huge step for me for multiple reasons (overcoming guilt/shame/etc., and also experiencing a simulation of pussy, which helped me overcome the idea that sticking my cock in something is a huge deal)…..

    This is legit Level Zero Game. It took me literally months of practice to get the courage to actually buy a package of condoms, and it wasn’t until a few years after that that I actually used condoms for the first time in my life I had P in V.

    I won’t get into the making out with/caressing/fantasizing with my pillow during my whole teens, or fucking a Thai coconut thing. Yes, that happened more than once. The sexual deprivation I’ve been through and how sad it is is like an African kid chewing off his leg because he’s starving to death. I have done some pretty sad shit in my life but it was because I was in a sad state of affairs.

    I know the living hell that being incel is. I get flashes of it when I think of ending my current relationship. I’ll feel fine one day but when I think it’s really over, the self destructive coping mechanisms will come back out with a vengeance. I just completely shut down.

    I feel like I’m on “the other side,” after having P in V, and having so much sex that I don’t WANT to have sex (at least with the same girl)…..but those reactions I have, and how quickly I go into a death roll, are a stark reminder that I haven’t really left that behind.

    I’m proof that you can have sex, and yet still maintain the same scarcity mentality of an incel. And that comes with the same suicidal impulses and hopelessness.

    This is the real killer. The mentality. Like “Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic”….similar for Incel. Although sexual deprivation IMO has very real effects on the brain….getting hung up on that and dwelling on it and identifying with it also has very real effects on the brain. “The reverse side also has a reverse side.”

    And men who have been conditioned, basically through the trauma of extensive sexual and tactile and emotional deprivation over YEARS….can, like a veteran with PTSD, snap back into that fear and suicidal thinking in a moment’s notice.

    I’ve had 10 months with this girl so far, but when I feel like it’s really over for real…..it’s like it never happened, and I feel like I just had a weird dream after I made a suicide attempt 10 months ago. It’s like something out of Hellraiser, lol, like I killed myself and I’m back alive again and I have to re-live it over and over for eternity.

    The suicidal thing can carry over. Be careful with that. I thought having sex would save me, being with women would save me. Wrong.

    I made that mistake, and now I’m in a relationship that is VERY high stress, very high tension, way beyond my skill level and experience to manage….

    …and the thought of it ending, despite all the turmoil it’s causing me, makes me want to kill myself.

    And that is a very shitty situation to be in. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    When I started “Game” and thought I was Alpha, and was just after ONS or hookups or whatever….and then got attached to the first girl I had sex with, and this shitshow started….

    I realized it was the same shitshow I’ve had all along.

    I’ll concede to Rollo that women DO have a frame: solipsistic, Hypergamous frame.

    And remembering that over the past couple days has helped me to realize what I’m dealing with in this relationship. Even subtle, little things she does that are aimed at controlling/changing me and bending me to her will, i.e. trying to get me to comply with her Hypergamy. And solipsism? She’s ALWAYS right, no matter what, and everything she wants me to do never applies to her. Case in point.

    Being aware of someone else’s frame can help you get in touch with your own, by thinking….”well that’s shitty, I don’t want to get sucked into that,” etc.

    But my point stands. I am ALL for learning Game and getting out there. But it’s important to be careful with your mind and your emotions. This is the reasoning behind plate spinning.

    Then again, if you’ve never had sex, I think the stress and tension are inevitable.

    Can a guy who’s been a virgin his entire life and never touched a girl ever NOT get attached to the first attractive girl he gets with?

    Maybe it’s just a rite of passage thing these days. Rational Male is the only thing keeping a lot of guys like me in the fight and wanting to survive. Because through the whole shitshow I have guys saying that having other girls IS AN OPTION, and I don’t have to kill myself just because my first relationship didn’t work out or something.

    When you don’t have any experience, you CAN’T be completely rational, because your emotions are just too strong. That’s why support networks are ESSENTIAL and men have to lift other men up and do their best to be there when shit hits the fan for other guys.

    It’s like having a sitter when you’re getting high. You can go to very dark and scary places if you don’t have someone there to tell you everything’s OK and it’s just the effects of whatever it is you’re taking.

    I mean, even if you DO go there, having people to support you is a big help.

    Like “Dude, wanting to kill yourself is NORMAL for your situation, like being a late term incel. You have to understand you can get through this, and also, guys that have gotten laid, like the millions of Betas in unhappy marriages, are suicidal too, so the playing field isn’t as uneven as you think….like I’ve had a lot of times where I WISH I could just go on porn or play videogames like I did when I was incel, because I’m so bored with sex or frustrated with my relationship, etc……..there are no shortcuts, EVERYONE starts from Zero in one way or another, all that matters is you just get on the path you want to be on TODAY. A single step on that path is as good as ten million steps — all that matters is that you’re ON IT.”

    Anyway, yeah, lots of ups and downs for me recently, been going in and out of some very dark places, but some very bright ones too. I’m feeling more unstable and more stable than I ever have at the same time. I’m in a strange place. Hope everyone here is doing well, good to see the comment section thriving as always.

  62. Concerning the equality of keeping Alpha and Beta sufferer frames and the sides of one coin, I would a bit more prudent. The former needs strength to overcome adverse forces while the latter comes with no effort.

  63. Re: Sentient’s rant beginning with “no pussy is going to to plop onto your dick because you did the hard work… it only will when you’ve done the right work.”

    This insight is missing from many millennials I encounter, and not just in the area of pussy. I think many of them/you (get all pissed millennials, it will be amusing to read) have been trained by our weak-ass educational system to believe that everything in life has a recipe of sorts. A “7 Steps to Awesomeness”, Buzzfeed, kind of hip, snarky description of what to do. A “listicle” if you know what they are. And they get very frustrated when things are dynamic and complex. The cold truth that all not everyone is going to climb the ladder upwards, that life doesn’t give a shit how hard you tried or want it is seen as anachronistic and cranky or something. Lol, what a bunch of fucking pussies.

    Life sucks: Get a helmet. It’s going to be lots of loss, frustration and deprivation. Lots of self-imposed failure. Pain is necessary, misery is optional. And whining is never helpful.

    Like you, @Hank. I think you show little class and gratitude by coming back at Scray and Sentient with some sand in your vagina. Who gives a fuck if it makes you feel badly? What, did your Daddy never criticize you? Did you never have a coach or leader who demanded better of you and wasn’t nice about it? Are you really all about your feelz? Fuck that shit, and don’t bring it here. Nobody gives a shit how you feel about getting WORLD CLASS ONE-ON-ONE PUA COACHING. Be grateful. Stop whining. You are fucking lucky.

    But back to Millennials. One of the ground truths about life that Prog-Marxists get wrong is the notion of fairness. A classically liberal worldview never promised fairness in society, or equality of outcomes. The sense of entitlement that results from such a worldview is stunning to watch. They’ve been told to go to school and get good grades and then go to college and then maybe get a graduate degree and then you can have a good life. Lol.

    Newer male friend and possible wing and I changed plans last night and instead of going out, played some music at my place. First time we’ve hung out one-on-one. 35, lives with his Mom. Has no job. Still doesn’t know what he wants to do with his life. Decent musician/singer/songwriter but I think he thought he should have made it or something.

    But he thinks he’s smart. Like a guy who watched a Frontline episode smart. He has all these wild ideas about the economic and corporate world and talks of Wall Street and corporations and the people who exist in those worlds as if they are monsters or the source of our problems. It was so pathetic. He literally said, “I know a lot about the financial crisis because I watched an entire Frontline show on it”. I then told him what I did for a living and the upfront connection I had with the institutions that supposedly blew up the world wrt to derivatives trading and risk management, and he was stunned into silence. I did so when he then had begun to lecture me about how FDR had saved America and the poor by fixing capitalism’s evils due via govt programs.

    He was like a child from Idiocracy. I stopped him at this point and told him I wasn’t going to debate the Great Depression with him. He got offended so I asked him if he knew what happened to gold prices and flows during that period of time? The actual performance of the stock market? The double dip of the depression itself? How we never came out of it despite more than a decade of Hoover and then FDR’s massive, unconstitutional and largely failed economic and social interventions? Smoot-Hawley? The brittleness of our banking system due to state by state regulation? The effects of central banking actions?

    He just shut up. He doesn’t know anything about economics, finance or capital markets. He just likes to think he’s smarter than others by seeing his little, dipshit socialist view of the world. And he went on about it. This was after stopping playing music in the middle of our session because he “just wasn’t feeling right”. So we sit down and I even have to turn the music I turned on off. He proceeds to emit 30+ minutes of rambling Emo nonsense about how his life is fucked up. Barely coherent at times.

    What was really going on is this. I’m a confident, accomplished man in many ways. He’s at the lake house I live in, playing on my economical, old but kind of awesome rig. He sees my work area and I told him a little bit about my business, and I also feel entitled to pussy that he thinks may be “too young for him”, lol and some other stupid things. He was threatened and it brought up all his insecurities. And he thought I’d be interested or tolerant of any of it.

    Nope. I was embarrassed to be socializing with him. I was embarrassed for him as a man. I eventually just told him it was time to go – and he’s so socially retarded it takes 25 mins for him to finally get the fuck out of my place. So loud, so self-absorbed, yet so ignorant. At first he still wanted to argue the Great Depression with me so I finally just asked him; “how many books have you read on the Great Depression? I’ve read 6, in addition to countless articles and listening to many academic’s lecture on the subject” Him – 0.

    Saddest? His victimology was so obviously designed to let him off the hook for his sad little fucked up life. He was a relentless pussy as well, with a dollop of the ‘no fear’ brashness pose. In other words, a complete fucking joke. Even funnier, what I portrayed as a greatly reduced lifestyle was something that he realized he probably would never achieve in his entire life. When he whined about corporations and Wall Street, I challenged him to realize that actual real people formed corporations and banks – who did he think those people were? He basically said that they were master’s of the universe types, spinning and pulling the strings to exploit guys like him.

    What he didn’t get is what a joke it would be to exploit him. He has no assets, his work experience involved warehousing and other crap jobs. What exactly would some rich exploiter get out of him? Unemployed, mooching off the system and his Mommy? He’s deadweight in our society and economy, drafting along off the productive work of a smaller and smaller percentage of our society. And I think in some small corner of his viscera he knows it. He realizes what a ridiculously failed man he is and hates himself for it.

    That’s two for two with recent attempts to make new male friends up here with 30 something, single men. Fucking nutters and losers and socially retarded morons. It’s such a contrast with my friends in NYC, so much more sophisticated and successful and worldly and socially intelligent. I really wonder if I can ride out my life up in the woods. I’m having a really hard time finding men I can connect with up here.

  64. @SJF – Glad you liked the podcast too. Sounds like we like similar sorts of books (Talent Code, Practical Female Psychology, Tribe..etc). I’m hoping to get to the book Junger mentions in the podcast (Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari) later this week so I’ll let you know if I liked that one.

    @hank holiday – just to say props on consistently going out despite all the logistical issues and being a virgin etc. How old are you btw?

    I think I’ve posted before – I had my first kiss at 23 and sex at 24 – once you get going it’s all fine. My logistics aren’t great either because I divide my time between two places – 1/3 in a big city where I game a lot and 2/3 in a small town with a tiny social circle plus too much work to game much (which is where I am right now – hence not many FRs from me for another few weeks).

    It’s not as bad a situation as you, but I get how challenging the logistics are.

    All I can say is – you’re taking the right actions and moving forward and as long as you keep doing that you’ll be fine. It will take time but you’ll be fine.

    And I read all your FRs too, even if I don’t reply to every single one – it’s definitely worth doing here.

  65. Why are you in the woods @scribblerg? Like that’s not a sarcastic question or a suggestion – I’m just asking why do you live in the boonies if you don’t like it and want to be in the big city? You don’t have any family ties or anything – is it purely financial?

    As I just posted to hank above, I have a weird two-city existence myself and I’d rather spend all my time in the big city – but I’m working on changing that – spending more time in the big city over the next couple of years (getting up to 50% of my time from the current 1/3) and then eventually full time.

  66. @ hank holiday, YaReally

    „Tyler has a lot of stuff on getting into state (like his Six Steps vids)

    will look at these“

    Tylers Six Steps are the shit, they were a big epiphany for me, because they WORK . By shifting your definition of „success“ away from „I must get pussy“ to „I followed the steps“ you shift your focus away from outcome („pussy“) to the process itself („approaching“) and this is key key key.

    Also what Tyler says in one of the vids explaining The Steps, by shifting your frame of mind in this way you eliminate obliteration nights where you get rejected a lot and walk home feeling like the biggest loser in the world while all the other people around have fun and sex!! (plain bullshit, but your brain processes it like this, don’t we all know the feel) Because your success is not „I got this girl“ but „I followed the process“ and in the long run this will be what gets you the girls.

    @ hank holiday

    You obviously take action, enjoy chatting up people and have the balls to approach women in daygame as a beginner, which is a HUGE advantage and something many guys, myself included, never had. I know guys who favor day game because in their opinion it’s easier to slip under the radar and go in while at night in the bars and clubs the women have their shields up and so on.

    In my case, forcing myself to go out solo and sober to approach people in bars and clubs at night is one of the biggest fears I ever had to overcome and still have to overcome. I find it truly fascinating (and horrifying at the same time lol) how your own fucking brain is your enemy in this and that you can/must train it to help you. Like you sit at home before going out, getting in state, maybe watching or reading some cool stuff that gets you in the mood.

    You say to yourself; well, it’s clear, I’ll start talking to people even on the way to the bar, then when I get in I IMMEDIATELY approach the first person, man or woman, doesn’t matter and talk to them and then I’ll introduce some random people to them like I saw in this cool video from RSD and then … you even envision it and it seems like a completely workable plan in your mind before you leave the door.

    Then what happens: You walk outside, some drunk dudes are starting a fight at the food stand, somebody trips over your feet and spills beer on your shirt, a homeless person talking to himself screams at you, some amazing dolled up 6,2” goddess walks by who your brain processes as everything you ever wanted in life but never could have, a wall of sound hitting you, music crashing your ears, lights piercing your eyes … and you literally are not the same fucking person anymore you were before you left your house.

    There is so much more to this than just getting pussy. It grows you in so many ways.

  67. @ Scribblerg

    Nice rant like Danny Devito,I have some good friends in NH,members of the Nantooket river club,albiet they are all 50 plus years old.

    So are you going to adopt and mentor these retarded guys,maybe start a band,or teach them some skills?

    I have been hireing these strawberries [ pink soft and bruise easilly]for 25 years now.They talk a good game,can’t play for shit,once in awhile I find a gifted one[the gift of desperation]that can suck it up and be something.The world doesn’t owe any of us anything,if we want something we have to go out and earn it in a socialy acceptable fashion,even at the level of homeless person,if you can’t panhandle and bring some change to the party you won’t be invited to the fire circle.

    Years ago i asked this old welder ,What do you think about all these kids going of to college?he replied well someone has to do the work.

  68. Young felllas – Here is what you are after. What d’ya gotta change about your inner self, …… change about your own constellation of convictions that inform your behavior (behavior = your active link with your circumstances, ….. your world) in order to inhabit your own version of this?:

    Redpill is one of many schools that are in the business of counseling for a changing of your programming (programming = your belief system and therefore your convictions upon which the beliefs are built). For humans – self-changing this programming (self-programming) is actually possible because we are devilishly insane beings. We are actually beings that have been “designed” to make up a story of who we are and to believe the protagonist in the story is willful. Humans inhabit these stories. We are abstract to the extreme – so much so that our lives have become, and now actually are ……. magnificent abstractions.

    The magic, …… the insane human magic ….. is in taking control of your story …….. taking the belief in the willfullness of the protagonist that is you …………. and recursively applying that magic dust, the precious, to the underpinnings of the story arc ……. by using that magic dust of willfullness to change, by way of manipulation, the subliminal elements (the convictions) on which the story is upheld.

    If you see the truth of these abstract facts …….. well, the unbearable craziness of our human condition, that we all are gonna have to feel from time it time, can be mitigated by a feel for the magnificence of the whole ordeal. Everybody got the same deal here! That is one of the truly uplifting things to ponder ….. it can provide one with solace during the hours of darkness.

  69. @ Rugby

    That guys character is unemployable because of his attitude.

    Old George told me the new goal is,for the young americans to run the rest of the world by keyboard.This seemed farfetched to me at the time and i still can’t picture it ever working out.

  70. StuffinBox – “That guys character is unemployable because of his attitude.”

    But hey – Good Will Hunting – pretty damn good movie though – right? The dude is so smart, he clearly sees everybody’s BS, …. turns him cynical. But he is not so good at seeing his own BS ……. until he does ……. then the hope is, at closing scene, that he can give himself a break, and therefore give everybody else a break too, and therefore give his life a break, …. and become less cynical.

    Nice message huh?

  71. @hank

    okay i get it, you’re super ego invested and don’t like being critiqued. so yeah massive props on going out and taking steps to get it handled. i waited to help before i saw you consistently posting FRs because you seem like you’re in it to win it.

    at the same time, you aren’t going to get past this stage if you don’t just accept it.

    here, you’re saying that ‘yeah no i’m doing that’ in response to like half of the stuff I’m saying to do.

    you aren’t.

    here, let me pull up some of your recent interactions in other FRs:

    “You get hit on any old dudes today? Ah, me too. Its cuz of my big booty. All the guys are like ‘I’m straight and all, but I would totally tap that guys ass. Totes tap that ass. No homo. No homo. But I would do that dude.’”
    and if customer comes up
    “Oh, go ahead man. We’re just talking about getting hit on by old dudes and how my ass brings all the boys to the yard.”
    And in victoria secret to things like
    “Need suggestion on perfume.”
    “Is this for your girlfriend, wife?”
    “No. Its for me. Obviously. Can’t you tell I am a flaming homosexual?”

    “See, that girl gets it. She’s thinking ‘That guy totally sucks dick. Takes it whooosshh right up the pooper.’ Your gaydar is on point. (turn to worker) But you, you need to fix yours. Its broke as shit.”

    this isn’t going to A1-A2 and it isn’t DHV’ing you. It’s FUNNY and FUN (as you say) but it is NOT doing what I’m saying.

    here, you are DQ’ing and DLVing yourself into oblivion. First, if you’re obviously kidding, it isn’t even a DQ. Second, you keep calling yourself gay (honestly, look at how much you’re saying you’re gay in like the space of 15 seconds in this interaction before this chick even knows you when you’re obviously NOT gay…)

    so great. here’s a funny guy who calls himself gay and who isn’t gay and is NOT moving the interaction forward (hey i need perfume — ‘for your gf or wife’ (ATTEMPT TO RELATE TO YOU MAN TO WOMAN WOMAN TO MAN) and you just go ‘NAH I’M GAY LOLZ!’)

    if you want to DQ just let slip you have a gf or something that ACTUALLY COULD DQ you. IF you want to be funny about being gay, just use it ONE time…sparingly. and don’t call yourself gay, it’s more fun to toy with the implication. Or make USE of the fact that you’re not obviously gay and just let slip in the fact that ‘you’ve been converted several times before’ or just SOMETHING.

    “You copied my hair. Yeah, you saw me here before, and were like ‘that guy is fly as shit so I am going to copy him’”
    “thats not what i did.”
    “that’s what they all say” was looking off in the distance hands on hips as I said it — was almost a verbal sigh lol.
    didn’t do the “this is why we will never get along bit.” good start, but got to warm up to push to new things. just needed one more person here

    once again, here you are just dropping game bombs and not moving the interaction forward. here i will explain. first, you come in with a not-bad routine about her copying your hair. and then she says she didn’t, and then you give her a line that requires her to be invested in order for it to work

    “that’s what they all say…” needs her to be invested enough to say something (maybe stomp her feet) and say ‘no I’m serious, I didn’t lol!”

    this routine is a tease and works best if there’s some rapport there (either instantly through passive value you’re giving or value you’ve already given to cross the social hook point)

    her response makes it CLEAR you aren’t past SH and you’re not giving much passive value

    in which case, I’d ROLL OFF and tell her about how that hair goes with her face (point out details about her face and its shape and couple them with adjectives; see that hair goes better with you because of your heart-shaped face and so it balances the wide cheekbones and angled jaw. you’re probably pretty X Y Z cold read aren’t you….if you combined this with A B C look, it’d really do well for you…) and now you’ve given her VALUE, and when she acts surprised you know about this stuff, you have a lot of avenues open. now you can joke a little about the implication you’re gay, now you can build some rapport and break it later, etc.

    which leads us to the original statement in your post:

    That’s what I did. Play along and get more ridiculous as I went on.

    nah. it’s not being fun and ridiculous, even though being ‘fun’ is what allows you to subcomm all the other fun stuff. it’s about finding any excuse to RELATE TO HER MAN TO WOMAN. that is what A2 is all about, that’s what attracts her to you. she becomes aware, in a good way, that you have a dick.

    the sunday school ex has her sitting in the front row sunday morning despite being hung over — so she’s a DL party girl who can keep up appearances, and I’m a guy who’s experienced enough to spot it, but I’m cool with that, I’m not judgy. That’s the vibe beneath the words and if she plays along, it’s only a matter of time before I’m qualifying her. Everyone else, including her mean friend, is just gonna see us talking about Ryan James Sunday School, but really we’re subtly expressing our mutual desire to fuck.

    Right NOW, you just have the surface level stuff that’s funny. Which is good! Most guys have trouble with that. And you’re going out, which is good. The next level is to start putting together the hidden and lurking meaning behind everything you say.

    how do I know your optometrist example didn’t have that stuff?
    because she kept questioning you about actually being an optometrist!
    lol
    if you do this shit right, whether you are any of that stuff DOESN’T MATTER very quickly and it becomes a little code language for you and her.

    o its very difficult to ‘Just be positive bro.

    Okay, for whatever reason you guys take the specific mindset I give and spin it into Just be positive bro.

    I said get in a positive, VALUE GIVING mindset.

    Here, I will put it in more explicit terms: BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND APPROACH, ASK YOURSELF HOW I CAN GIVE VALUE TO THIS PERSON I’M ABOUT TO TALK TO? What routines/parts of my stack will add value? What can I say that will get her to think ‘THIS MALE HAS VALUE TO ME’

    FIRST STEP OF THE GAME IS YOU REALIZING THAT WOMEN GIVE NO FUCKS ABOUT YOU IF YOU DO NOT OFFER THEM VALUE.

    This is BASIC MM.

    The foundation of all your thinking. First and foremost, give value.

    Whether you’re Russell Brand, RDJ, or even Chris Evans — you’re giving value. And yeah, there’s many different ways to do that, but that’s the first thing you have to focus on.

    for me, i had to start with being sort of ‘the guy who knows about clubs’ and say ‘hey are you drinking x, nah, this drink is way better because a b c….’ ‘hey you here, well there’s this other place here that is cool because a b c…’ ‘be sure to ask for X y z, i know them, they will give you a b c…’

    it went — opener (mine used to be ‘hey guys, sorry i’m late,’) and then VALUE ADD for SH.

    so be positive or no…whatever. just always be thinking about how you are giving value. in your mind, like a freaking scrolling marquee HOW AM I GIVING VALUE GIVE VALUE GIVE VALUE….

    read routines with that in mind
    read about pua with that in mind

    Problem was some of my original ideas . . .din’t work well. So I need new ones.

    BRO your ideas are all fine!
    all the routines you have right now are legit. THE NEXT LEVEL is you figuring out how to mix and match them PROPERLY so that you give MAXIMUM value and move interactions forward.

    Its just I have found that TRYING to do routines or whatever has messed me up. So I need to get more comfortable in doing just a regular convo on the fly, and dropping these things as they come up.

    yes because it’s a skill you need to DEVELOP.

    but yeah you can just go start reg convos.
    honestly, focus on doing regular convos while constantly thinking about how to give value.

    i guarantee your interactions will start moving in better directions…

  72. @ya

    Right now Scray comes off like he pretty much lives and breathes being in state, which is awesome for him and I’m happy as fuck to see that, but it makes it harder to give relatable advice to guys still struggling.

    yeah, this is important to note too.

    The way I see it, tho, you’re here already lol.

    Like, I just remember what helped me. It wasn’t until I started focusing on my mindset that I could even really fully appreciate all the tactics you were giving me.

    That’s why I’m just like…’dude, fuck thinking that way, it’s gay, just think this way and focus on that…’ for the first step.

    Like, that’s what I kept telling scribbler. He was so in his head and afraid to pull the trigger and take back his manhood that all his interactions were just permeated by that bullshit mindset. and look at him now, totally let go of the baggage from his younger self. He’s like some sorta older PUA eagle who’s starting to fly now — lol to the point where he’s lecturing youngin millenials! I love it!

    Now, if scribb posted a FR I’d probably be more about tactics with him because now I can get in his head and see how he thinks and I don’t imagine him the way I imagine Hank, who probably has a lot of negative subcomms coming through when he interacts to such a large extent that I’m like ‘well bro we gotta go to the foundation.’

    So you know, if Hank is like ‘scray is a dick, you weren’t shit when you started either’ I’m like ‘lol whatever, he’ll see…soon he’ll see’ speaking of….

    @hank

    whenever I criticize you, you need to imagine this as my tone:

    like lol reading this shit with you maybe brings out a bit of harsh criticism but it’s because i’m like ‘WOW THIS DUDE IS SO MONEY AND HE’S JUST WALKING AROUND TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO THAT FACT’

    and i get it man…

    like, you probably haven’t that type of relationship before.

    I was lucky enough that that I had a few (not many) people IRL who were like that with me, in addition to names on the screen people lol.

  73. @Nastymate

    Some of the responses included a couple that said her brother is “going to be going places”
    Friend zone, heart ache, divorce court…

  74. @ scray

    re: giving value

    My experience with mentorship is it’s kind of an organic process that unfolds without any spoken agreement being uttered.

    Kind of like relationships with women, or how they should go. No “negotiated desire.” Just organically evolving and progressing based on genuine desire.

    This comes from giving value.

    Thanks for emphasizing that point.

    What’s funny is with my friend, our relationship has ALWAYS been about mutually giving value. Just naturally. Without even thinking about it. And it’s insane to me to think of analyzing this or even saying it’s “giving value” because it’s so fucking obvious that that’s how good relationships with ANYONE work, like you’d have to be mentally retarded not to understand this stuff.

    What do I do with my friend? Constantly build each other up, get excited talking about projects. It’s all we do. That’s why we get energized from each other. Bounce off each other’s ideas. I also show off my work to him and he appreciates it, and that’s a form of giving value to me. Just like when he’s about to give up on some project I’ll keep him going, and when it’s completed and he feels great, that’s me having given value to him.

    Even just joking around and everything we do all the time is giving value to each other.

    I think this is why girls shut down guys that are too aggressive without calibrating, like guys that “just want to fuck.” I have heard a LOT of girls genuinely get pissed off about guys like this.

    It’s because they’re not giving value. When you go too heavy and come off as creepy or just an asshole (not in a good way), it comes off as trying to TAKE value. Like you want sex FROM the girl, not to have sex WITH her.

    And that comes off as DLV because you’re needy, like an energy vampire. Like, “I’m sexually deprived, give me sex, I need it.”

    Instead of DHV and changing the perception of sexual desire to one of mutual tension, where it becomes fun for both people instead of one-sided harassment/pussy begging (this is how that comes off…..like ‘please give me pussy’ instead of being a high value guy that the girl will want to fuck on her own)

    Hence the “art” of Game. The deal is the WHOLE THING should be fun.

    Ever heard the song “The Chase Is Better Than The Catch”?

    I’ve had at LEAST as much fun building up sexual tension as actually having sex with the hookups I’ve had.

    It’s just funny to me because even though I haven’t been doing anything lately, when I think back to some experiences I have had, my first thought on Game is:

    “Dude, it’s not like this is rocket science.”

    It’s like 99% of Game is just pushing past the anxiety to actually do these things. Like closing and actually having sex. Actually understanding how it works is not that hard, it’s just the fear response most guys have, like,

    OMG, IF I NEG A GIRL, SHE’LL SLAP ME!!!!

    Or everyone in the bar will beat you up, or something stupid like that.

    It’s not complicated. Dogs fuck each other for Christ’s sake. It’s not rocket science. But men have been thoroughly conditioned to be out of touch with their innate sexual behaviors and impulses, whereas women have been conditioned to be completely in tune with them AND to have massive confidence.

    Just a brief moment of clarity. But there’s a reason I’ve had an easier time hitting on women when I’m drunk. Don’t call it liquid courage for nothing.

    But my point is that anxiety gets in the way, and all the hyper-analyzing is in a sense, a way of coping with that anxiety. I think most guys can understand Game on an intuitive level. There’s just so much FI conditioning and bullshit mental programming that it can feel hard or impossible to access that inner reservoir.

    Doesn’t mean it’s not there. When I gamed the shit out of this girl and fucked her like a champ, first P in V in my entire life no less, I probably owed about half of that to Xanax. Just erased my anxiety.

    It didn’t magically give me Game and PUA knowledge, but it did help me get out of my own way and I was doing escalating, negging, teasing, kino, etc. before I even heard about what any of that shit was. And I was completely relaxed. That’s why I did all that stuff and why I was able to pick up on IOI’s and follow through with no hesitation.

    I have like 2 pills left and I’m not sure if I can get a refill but if I’m gonna use them I might as well try it out somewhere and see if it can push me past the barrier to gaming strange women.

    Remember, emotions are king. The FI has successfully conditioned men not by implanting false ‘knowledge’ in them, but EMOTIONS that relate to that ‘knowledge’.

    Making men FEAR doing the shit that will actually get them laid is what keeps them plugged in.

  75. @scray @hank holiday
    “Like, I just remember what helped me. It wasn’t until I started focusing on my mindset that I could even really fully appreciate all the tactics you were giving me. ”

    Ya but I could have told you on day one “just give value dude” and it wouldn’t have helped. You have to go through that awkward stage of trying routines and shit before advice like that even makes sense. When you’re a newbie you don’t even know what value IS or what value you HAVE or what value people can GET from interacting with you because you have no frame of reference. Dude is giving value in his openers, he’s getting good reactions from girls and guys and pretty much everyone he interacts with loves him giving him drinks and iois and shit. He’s not leading that anywhere, but like, he’s not leeching value off the people he’s engaging with.

    You, as you are NOW, understand how much value you have to offer. *I* could see how much value you have to offer early on, but it doesn’t matter what I can see, what matters is what you can see. *I* could see how much value scribblerg had to offer early on, but he felt like he had none to offer a hot young girl. A newbie generally doesn’t KNOW he has value and has dealt with society telling him the exact opposite message most of his life…he has to go out and get those little feel-good “hey, she laughed when I said this! I have the ability to make a girl laugh and make people’s day better just by talking to them!!” moments first. That’s the stage hank is in right now. Dude doesn’t even have reference of having value to a girlfriend or anything yet and he doesn’t have a bunch of bro’s pumping him up, he’s just a dude out there in a shitty city trying to do what he can.

    It’s not that he can’t go faster, it’s just that “JUST BE IN A GOOD MOOD YOU FUCKIN MORON HOW COME YOU DON’T KNOW THIS SHIT I’VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 5 YEARS AND I WOULD JUST GRAB HER ASS AND BE LIKE YO BITCH SUCK MY DICK” clearly isn’t helping lol He’ll get there and he’ll go “oh I get what those guys were saying” down the road, but like, have some fuckin patience for a newb who’s already putting in more effort than most newbies and is learning what state even IS and how to manage it and is stuck wandering around alone stone cold sober with 2 hour gaps between HB5s he can find to even open in his city…he’s not out tearing up a nightclub full of dozens of hotties with 10 of his buddies pumping his state. He doesn’t have 40 years of tearing shit up slaying pussy under his belt.

    “He was so in his head and afraid to pull the trigger and take back his manhood that all his interactions were just permeated by that bullshit mindset. and look at him now, totally let go of the baggage from his younger self.”

    Same situ there. Scribbler had to gather a bunch of “you’re NOT a creepy old man” reference experiences before he even began to understand that he still has value to offer girls. Dude was a fucking wreck at first who didn’t believe he had any value to them.

    I get it, it’s frustrating to watch a newbie go through the slow initial stages when you’ve finally got the secrets all figured out. It’s like “just catch up to me, wtf!!” But you guys gotta put yourself in the dude’s shoes in terms of relating to him as teachers.

    Dude doesn’t come off ego-invested to me and butthurt about getting advice/critiques at ALL…you guys come off uncalibrated as fuck lol It’s like watching a little league kid’s dad think the solution to his son not hitting homeruns when he shouts at him, is to shout LOUDER lol Calibrate dat shit if you want the guy to learn. Walk him through what giving value IS, give him some examples, give him some routines, give him some exercises, help him understand that shit, relate to the logistical nightmare situation he’s working with.

    I mean, you don’t HAVE to, but he’s just going to go “fuck it, this is too much to get a grasp on, I give up” and bail. And maybe scribblerg and Sentient in their “fuck all the weak men” rant modes would just go “good then give up who cares you pussy” but I’d rather not see a guy bail on something he’s already ahead of other newbies at that’ll help fix his life.

  76. That 11-year old boy’s notes on dating sound like they were written by a trad con woman. Poor bastard.

  77. Emily on Reddit today

    As I said, the way TRP describes hypergamy is that women date upwards in terms of overall value, which they emphasize means looks (people like Rollo Tomassi have told me this directly …

  78. @ YaReally

    From “Monsters and Magical Sticks”:

    “The combination of internal belief systems (brought about by traumas, suggestions, or what have you), and the repetition of patterns of behavior that reinforce belief systems, simply results in an individual who is stuck and without choice. You must look not at what the world is doing to them, but rather what they are doing within the world based on what belief system and what patterns.

    Since a form of hypnosis has been used to convince them that things exist which do not exist, or that things do not exist which do exist, it would seem to me that a hair of the dog might be the best course of action. In short, if a person really believed they could be successful, they wouldn’t need you to tell them, “Of course you can be successful.”

    It seems ridiculous that somebody becomes, say, a psychiatrist or a psychologist with years and years of schooling, and spends time telling a patient something obvious such as, “Of course you can be successful. There are opportunities in this world.”

    The real problem is how to interrupt the pattern of behavior that continues to reinforce the belief system, and how to help the patient examine their own belief system, to help them acknowledge other choices that are available in the world.”

  79. @ hank

    Highly recommend taking up a hobby. My hobbies have branched out into a profession, and this is always a possibility, so keep that in mind. Even as a cottage industry, there’s a market for just about everything.

    Think about buying some supplies. Do you like art? Computers? Woodworking? Music? Cars?

    One of my friends recently took up an interest in wood carving. Has no idea how to do it and never did it before. Started out by buying a spokeshave and is learning how to hone blades and shit like that.

    My interest in nutrition led to starting a relationship a couple days ago with a 10th generation farmer. The guy was really interesting and was impressed with how much I knew about cattle and genetics and how that translated to the type of milk they produce and the health effects that could have.

    I’m planning on checking out their farm with my friend, and building up some rapport with them. It was pretty awesome and he also ended up giving me an insane deal on a few strip steaks, eggs, and some maple syrup they brought from their farm.

    Funny thing too, at the farmer’s market I went to, they also pay people to play there. I just rebuilt my 12 string acoustic guitar and it’s up and running, and I’m considering installing some passive pickups in it and building up my set list so I can start playing out again.

    Ironically enough, one of my hands has a disability so playing guitar is hard for me. I can play my ass off, but when I learn new songs, I have to adapt them to my disability because I just can’t do certain hand positions.

    That gets me discouraged and when I try to build up a new set list, I just feel like giving up…..but I’m pushing forward.

    Anyway, hobbies are doors to the world.

    I’m also really good at fixing and setting up guitars and am constantly building skills, including getting into building guitars from the ground up, and doing more and more complicated work.

    My dream is to regularly start gigging, alternating between solo acoustic and solo electric, the electric probably with a loop station, and to only play guitars that I’ve built entirely myself, like designed everything and built the guitar starting out with raw lumber.

    I’m getting closer every day.

    Anyway, that gets me excited, and also in a value-giving mode. It also gives me an endless amount of shit to do in my free time. If I’m feeling burned out on women and just want to shut down, I NEVER get bored. I have an endless amount of things to do that I’m interested in, even if it’s just researching nutrition on Google or thru using Sci-Hub and poring through Oxford journals and shit like that, looking up new music, playing guitar, making little cigarette cases out of exotic woods, blending tobacco, etc.

    It’s FUN. You’re missing out on a lot if you don’t have any hobbies.

    And there’s no reason you can’t. All you have to do is think about ANYTHING that you’re interested in. What’s cool to you? What do you like?

    -Drawing
    -Sculpting
    -Painting
    -Woodworking
    -Metalworking (e.g. forging knives, I had a teacher in high school who made knives, one day he brought in a damascus steel knife he forged himself and it was fucking cool as anything)
    -Welding
    -Music
    -Custom clothing

    It’s ENDLESS.

    If you can, start TODAY. Right now. Just ONE THING you’re interested in. You don’t have to act on it right away. Just plant the seed. If you have any spare money, consider investing in some tools that you could use for your hobby, if it’s a hobby that requires tools.

    Some of the most fun I’ve had has been building skills and watching my workshop grow from a screwdriver and a hammer to a couple full toolchests with labels, and tools to cover hundreds of different jobs. And having a slowly growing portfolio of my work and what I’ve accomplished.

    But it all starts with that first step.

    All that matters is that you think something is REALLY COOL, and want to learn how to do it.

    Lol, “Man you have to have Dwarven Ancestors”

    Think about the guys with waifu pillows and watching anime all day that are cast aside as weebs, and are like the literal bottom of the totem pole in social hierarchy.

    If some guy forged a samurai sword and it looked awesome, do you think he’d be in the same social status?

    People respect skill. Even when the people who have it might be socially awkward as fuck. And it can be a great door to meeting people and building up relationships if you want to go that path.

    There’s that like fucking autistic guy that learned how to shoot arrows in the ancient ways. Some people could think he’s a major fucking dork with too much time on his hands, but it’s fucking cool as hell.

    And you know what?

    “All is vanity.”

    Like if you want to learn how to shoot arrows in an era where it would be pointless, who gives a fuck? Go for it if that’s what you love. And it isn’t completely pointless because you could have a YouTube channel and make a ton of money if you got popular enough.

    I love guitars, but how much does guitar matter in the grand scheme of life?

    Who cares? Do you love doing it, is it fulfilling to you? That’s what matters.

    Anyway, that’s my two cents for now. Hobbies are a great world to get into. I think everyone should have at least one, if not many, and have at least one that they dedicate a lot of time and effort to, in pursuit of mastery.

    There’s no other joy like it. Starting from zero and seeing yourself grow. What I like with hobbies like woodworking is that you have tangible evidence of how far you’ve come.

    Women are great, but even N counts are subjective. You can’t hold an N count in your hand. Women shouldn’t be the focus of life anyway; only a complement to it.

    It might be a stretch, but hobbies are a great way to get you used to being in your own frame too.

    I’ve had plenty of times where my hobbies are the ONLY thing that kept me respecting my time and boundaries.

    Phone call? “Sorry, can’t talk right now, gluing something up. Really time critical thing I’m doing. I’ll talk to you later.”

    People seeing you get passionate about something is also infectious. People like that energy and want to be a part of it.

    I’d get on that ASAP. Just ONE THING….think of one thing, anything, and consider investing some time and money into it. Baby steps. Go to a supply store or something that would carry something you’re interested in, and try talking to some people, ask some questions.

  80. Ranting? Oh boy… Not hardly. These were just simple measured questions and observations.

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