The Nature of Power

From Truth to Power:

Real Power is the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we control the directions of our lives.

Are women attracted to Power? Yes. Why? Because a man who has it is in control of his own circumstances (to the best of his ability). People need to be reminded of this because we tend to think of power as some tyrannical dominance over others. Sometimes power is exercised as such, but that’s not what defines real power.

There exist a set of Beta men who hold this idea because it fits into their self-loathing binary understanding of intersexual dynamics. On my Incels post comment thread there’s a conversation with a 25year old guy who considers himself an Incel and his self-awareness is one that he’s hopeless to be anything else. He believes he has no power and therefore nothing a woman would ever want from a man. As he persists in this belief he’s not wrong.

I’m proud of my commentariat for giving this guy some kind of hope and inspiration, but according to the Black Pilled set all they’re doing is setting him up for failure and disappointment. Because if he attempts to empower himself he’d just be making himself a more efficient pussy-beggar and or/setting himself up for more failure. The game is rigged so stop playing it, right? And even if he had the kind of access to women he wished for ‘the juice isn’t worth the squeeze’ is the circular logic, and he’d only be a failure from within a success – or something like that.

The old saying goes, ‘Everything is about sex, except sex; sex is about power’. But what is ‘power‘? The degree to which a person has control over circumstances that would otherwise govern their lives. But power is always measured by how it fits into a particular context, so in this instance that power is a control over sexual experience, gratification and ultimately reproduction. And really, this is the basis of how Hypergamy has become the socialized, prime-directive that is gynocentrism. What is the latent purpose of a feminine-primary social order? Empowering women to unilaterally control their reproductive circumstances and then as much of their own lives as follows that imperative.

Power is one aspect of attraction (sometimes arousal) for women. I would also say, by this definition, that power is an aspect of a man being Alpha, but it isn’t the only aspect. I can point to a lot of men who have no real power, influence, affluence or even social proof who nonetheless pull women and have women pull him because they have a look that fit a woman’s sexual ideal and/or had an Alpha mindset. I have been that guy.

Power is not a prerequisite for being Alpha, but the appearance of, the potential for, power certainly is. Remember, women are hardwired to seek out competency in men as part of their innate need for security in all its forms. This is why I make the distinction between power being ‘attractive’ to a woman (in the long term Beta Need side of Hypergamy) and not always an element in arousal – though when paired with an arousing man power is intoxicating for women sexually.

The appearance of, or potential for, real power in a man represents competency in his capacity to control the circumstances that would dictate the terms of his life. If a woman is to ultimately pair monogamously with a man, his access to power will ultimately dictate the terms of her life while paired with that man. So it follows that power would be a selected-for aspected of female attraction.

This is probably pretty remedial. “Duh, chicks dig power Rollo.”

Power is a part of that Alpha ideal, but the question to ask is why is power attractive to a woman? This is where militant MGTOWs and Black Pill nihilists show their colors. Most will say it’s because they want control or some parasitic association with a powerful man to further their own ends. In essence it’s about a need to control their circumstances by using a male proxy to exercise their own self-serving plans. It’s all very melodramatic until you pick apart the latent purposes of female power.

From an evolutionary perspective, what these guys think is “power” is really just social dominance, preselection and a good physique. That’s why they’re obsessed with the “Chad” archetype that bullied them in high school. That guy seems “powerful” and made a lasting impression on them because he effortlessly got women and reminds them of what they’re not. Whether or not the guy is genuinely ‘powerful’ in the sense that he’s in control of his own destiny is irrelevant – he has the appearance of what these guys think power should look like and he’s rewarded with pussy for it.

So, what to do? Do the same shit feminists do; change the game and try to convince everyone that they are the real deal and the world that they figured out (really constructed) on their own is the ‘real’ game everyone ought to be playing. Unless you’re Thundercock the Barbarian, which you never are, all you’re doing is trying to be like him, which amounts to you accruing ‘power’, (however they define it) no matter how self-interested you think you are, with the sole purpose of giving it away to a woman – which she will use to more completely own you, because, that’s “just how women are.”

Feminists do the same thing from their own base of interest. They cannot compete for Darwinistic reproductive success with women whose SMV outclasses their own.

Solution: Change the game to suit their lesser capacity to compete; embrace fat-positivity, shame men for their innate sexual choices and expressions, disqualify hot women by disempowering and stigmatizing their strengths. Ban Grid Girls, cheerleaders on TV and remove the swimsuits from Miss America.

All of these are adaptive strategies for increasing reproductive success. The problem is nature confounds these efforts over and over again. The idea is to change the rules of the game; to literally control the reality and context in which it’s played in order to make the ones changing it the superior players. Rather than find the cheat codes to play the existing game in ‘God Mode’ the idea is to just rewrite the game to suit their skills.

Ostensibly, the cover story of feminism has always been about some effort to achieve an idealized state of equality between men and women. This has never been the actual case, but even if we were to presume that this equality was tenable it still requires the players to ignore their strengths and weaknesses in playing the existing game and pretend that a new game, based on contrived rules, is now the true game. The problem is they can never get everyone to participate in the new game. The fact remains that we evolved to compete in a naturalistic game and most people instinctively get this reality even when they espouse a belief in the new game.

Beautiful women will aspire to a feminist-contrived norm, but on a root level of consciousness they understand that their beauty and sexuality puts them above their less beautiful sisters. This again is a form of power. It provides them a control advantage over their life circumstances and their hindbrains wont allow any pretense of a level playing field stop them from exercising it.

End Games

The same principle applies to the ends of MGTOW. I’m not even sure what the consensus is as to what an idealized outcome between the genders might be for a MGTOW mindset. Every time I’ve tried to parse out what happens when enough men go MGTOW that society shifts I’m usually met with some equalist future where women ‘come to their senses’ and take responsibility for their own actions. That and crypto currencies seem to be what the future MGTOW utopia looks like.

I’m not being flippant here. I’m genuinely curious as to what the end state of a MGTOW society ought to look like. Feminists seem to think that egalitarian equalism and gender neutrality, and a world where men and women are coequal agents is a future that’s possible. I’ve read the comparisons of feminism with Marxism and it’s not too far off with regard to their stated future hopes. I don’t buy any of it of course. It’s been proven over and over that feminism is a supremacism movement, but I’m interested in what the hopes are for the the cover story of feminism.

I wonder the same about MGTOW. Both MGTOW and feminism are ultimately interested in power – in the respect that power is the control over the individual circumstances that govern our lives. MGTOW make it very clear that dealing with women is an unacceptable risk (by order of degrees) and that until such time as the risks diminish to an acceptable tolerance they’ll simply ‘go their own way’ and avoid potentially dangerous entanglements with women. Sounds perfectly logical in a male deductive logic way, but what does the intended goal-state look like for MGTOW?

I’ve yet to get a clear consensus on this. Most of it seems to be awaiting an expected societal collapse whereafter women ‘come to their senses’ and somehow realize they really need men and voluntarily relinquish the power they hold today in favor of treating men more fairly. I’m doubtful of how realistic this is, but perhaps I’m mistaken in this being the perceived end game. Women of course would see this as being an abdication of their own interests – a surrender of feminism so to speak, but what does an acceptable ‘truce’ between men and women look like to feminists as well as MGTOWs?

I ask these questions because it seems to me that both movements depend on an adversarial state existing between the sexes. What would the inter-gender landscape need to look like for MGTOWs to deal with women or compete with other men? What would that landscape need to look like for feminism to dissolve and relinquish the abusive power it’s established over the lives of men?

340 comments

  1. I’ve had to wrestle with this myself. I haven’t had a girlfriend in 14 years (I’m 39 now). So i was basically ‘MGTOW’ long before the term was coined. Although it wasn’t out of anger or bitterness…I just simply had no game (still don’t), and I also just really enjoyed/enjoy being single and living a drama-free life. I will admit that I’ve progressively gotten MORE upset/angry over the years, but it’s definitely something I’m trying to work on because I know that it doesn’t serve me. I also have had that same thought in the back of my mind of “Okay cunts. Keep it up and more men are going to just check out altogether and THEN maybe you’ll come to your senses.” But that’s the whole problem! 99% of women are INCAPABLE of “coming to their senses” because they’re incapable of self-reflection. No, what’s MORE likely to happen, is they’ll just continue to double down on their whining and complaining and blaming. Everything will CONTINUE to be mens’ fault forevermore

  2. The pursuit of equality is a dead end, it doesn’t exist. Power is generated by polarity. The FI wins the Darwin Award.

  3. Excellent post as usual Rollo. Very intresting peice on “Power”. It’s difficult to find writing online about the subject and its masculine conceptualization in pair with intersexual dynamics. Especially in the 21st century without it turning into an imagionary wall street billionaire play boy circle jerk fantasy or the “mind over matter” unbreakable frame mantras.

    As far as the future MGTOW hope to achieve? That’s a good question. The vast majority either want “on the plantation” or “back on the plantation” but with better pay, better farm equipment, better stock and an appreciation for their hard work. Even if it’s not their day to day moto, men have a craving and a need a for purpose that negates them being genetic dead ends. Only problem in modernit is that Pussy is a ponzi scheme and masculinity has been commodified and repurposed right into scarcity and instability for moderm men. Even if modern women turned over a new leaf for fear of a collapse. Defeat, surrender or truce you will always remember that in the not so long ago past, they would put your head on a a pike for ” a lil bit of thang, a little bit of fame, and a little bit of change”

  4. “I’m not being flippant here. I’m genuinely curious as to what the end state of a MGTOW society ought to look like.”

    You could–maybe–talk to MGTOWs about this. Try your new friend Turd Flinging Monkey for example. His answer will be essentially: “I didn’t say ask women to give up their rights. I said take women’s rights away.” He thinks patriarchy is the inevitable end state of civilization; it’s just a question of who will reinstate it. Maybe go on his show or other MGTOWs if you want to know what they think. Instead, the fact that you didn’t spend much time asking them shows you are being flippant here.

    [Apparently you don’t follow The Red Man Group podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i3Z9_jFesY ]

  5. In my opinion what both mgtow and feminism share is a sense of victimhood and helplessness. Neither of those qualities are in a leader or success archtype. It’s why they both can get you so far and then no farther. Ultimately they will both give way to a powerful masculine man. It’s the archtype built on top of the opposite qualities. Responsibility and personal control(power).

  6. In my opinion what both mgtow and feminism share is a sense of victimhood and helplessness. Neither of those qualities are in a leader or success archtype. It’s why these mindsets both can get you so far and then no farther. Ultimately they will both give way to a powerful masculine man. It’s the archtype built on top of the opposite qualities. Responsibility and personal control(power).

  7. In my opinion what both mgtow and feminism share is a sense of victimhood and helplessness. Neither of those qualities are in a leader or successful archtype. It’s why they both can get you so far and then no farther. Ultimately both mindsets will give way to a powerful masculine man. It’s the archtype built on top of the opposite qualities. Personal Responsibility and personal control(power).

  8. What is my source of power? The red pill, we have been taught to be incongruent with ourselves as men. If it were not for the red pill I would of never known about game,how crazy some women are, making myself my mental point of origin and machevalianism. My biggest red pill lesson? When you know why, you can act and when you act you improve. Thanks for the post Rollo.

  9. Women don’t love, hate or ignore you for what you are but for what they IMAGINE you are.

  10. There appears to be a misconception that MGTOW is some sort of centralised movement, with an organising committee, manifesto etc. Apparently, there are some… personalities… identifying as MGTOW that attempt to enforce some sort of dogma, canon about what it really is. Unlike Feminism, no-one can kick a man out of MGTOW. He may not even be aware he is one.

    If you boil it down, there is no single MGTOW “way”. Really, it’s each man going his own respective way, chosen by him for himself. So, a man who makes himself his own mental point of origin, decides not to marry because the laws suck… is he MGTOW? Or an MRA (well, maybe if he agitates for changes in certain laws)? Or perhaps just a Rational Male (for lack of yet another classifier)? Some incel tells him he can’t be MGTOW because he still likes to go out, game and bang women… and his response is “whatever, I don’t give a fuck what you think”.

    I think there is a fallacious preconception that MGTOWs are after some “end game”. Why does there have to be one? What is the end game of Red Pill? Perhaps the means IS the end. If I’m not mistaken, critics of this place came up with much the same argument: “But Rollo, what if EVERY man got Red Pilled and gamed women into bed?” etc. And the answer is the same. Never gonna happen, that every man will get Red Pilled or go MGTOW or become an Arch-PUA or help get divorce laws changed or de-feminize their church or whatever.

    I see the Red Pill as being a rather broad church, including MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs etc. They’ve each got slight differences in what mysteries of the “faith” have been revealed to them (i.e. the natures of women and men) and how they practice their faith (i.e. live their life and relate to women). Without exception, each sees itself as the One True Faith.

    I’m no MGTOW. I’m an OMG. But I have read enough different Red Pill viewpoints throughout the Manosphere to realise that many of them have value for different reasons. I don’t see the need for factionalism and in-fighting. If a man thinks being a PUA is “his” road, that’s his choice. Or by being an MRA. Or a MGTOW. Why does anyone care? Sure, ask him “how’s that working out for you?” and discuss it. However, any “denomination” ragging on another seems not too different to gynocentric society telling a man he has to follow the standard Books 1.0 version of life of doing good at school and getting a good job to wife up a woman and raise her children (aka “serve the FI!”).

  11. A man going is own way is not waiting for “women to come to their senses.” It’s enough that he himself came to his senses.

  12. Yes, Mineter said it.

    It is a wrong conception to view MGTOW as a “movement” with “end goals” comparable to feminism or other -ism.

    To “go MGTOW” is just a PERSONAL decision and has nothing to do with wishing that the world (or women/men) could/should become so or so. It’s just about what seems to work best for ME now and here. About my own mental point of origin. That’s all.

    If some people try to make a “movement” out of MGTOW they’re mistaken and not real MGTOWs anymore. Because “movement” means either taking on other’s “mental points of origin” or convincing/forcing others to accept one’s own MPoO. It’s easy to see that if I’m part of a movement I don’t have a genuine own MPoO.

  13. Rollo, I have read almost all of your content but it is this article that made me ask two questions:

    – do you think that civilization and society are inherently a net benefit to us as humans. If so, why?
    – do you think that both of the above are inherently a net benefit to the world. If so, why?

    Thanks!

  14. “I can point to a lot of men who have no real power, influence, affluence or even social proof who nonetheless pull women and have women pull him because they have a look that fit a woman’s sexual ideal and/or had an Alpha mindset. I have been that guy.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK1vUhP0fUw
    “Feminists do the same thing from their own base of interest. They cannot compete for Darwinistic reproductive success with women whose SMV outclasses their own.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqgiqpKMtWg
    “I’m not being flippant here. I’m genuinely curious as to what the end state of a MGTOW society ought to look like. Feminists seem to think that egalitarian equalism and gender neutrality, and a world where men and women are coequal agents is a future that’s possible. I’ve read the comparisons of feminism with Marxism and it’s not too far off with regard to their stated future hopes. I don’t buy any of it of course. It’s been proven over and over that feminism is a supremacism movement, but I’m interested in what the hopes are for the the cover story of feminism.”

  15. All of these are adaptive strategies for increasing reproductive success.

    It sounds like you think their strategies will work. Then later you deny it. That’s confusing.

    “All of these are adaptive strategies which they suppose will increase reproductive success.”

  16. Even though I am no scientist, I am very much interested in it and do believe that the only way anything can be explained in this universe is through science. And I think this post is the most scientific way of explaining what feminism is all about. It actually makes perfect sense. The envy, the resentment, the hate. It is the same thing with incel culture, full of resentment, hate, envy, and when the unfulfilled testosterone rush kicks in, unfortunately rage and violence.

    It is funny that the only side of this coin that you can see on TV is the male side of the picture. Blaming men (incels, mgtow, red pill etc.). You can’t see any negativity against feminism, obviously, because no media company will take the chance to take on and lose the majority of their viewers (women of course).

    Anyway, I am a 37 year old guy and I just want to share a few words with you my brothers here (if anyone is reading). The first thing you need to do is to accept the truth that not all of us, or even most of us will ever be alphas in our lives. But as men, we are smart enough (unlike feminists) to not even try to change the rules of the game of nature that took millions of years to form. What we can do is to accept our situation and adapt, and make the best of our circumstances. Just try to become the best of what you can become and get the best of what you can get from life. Yeah sure, you won’t be able to “pull prime pussy” and date with supermodels, but if you are an average guy who is not fat, relatively clean and can keep a steady job, you will be able to get some. Yes they won’t be the women of your dreams but you know that you are not the dream guy either. You are not rich, you are not a prince or you are not the muscular Chad. Just accept your situation, work on yourself, better yourself and be patient. Some of them will bounce right back from their alphas into your lap and that is when you gotta make the most of it. Sure, she won’t stick with you for long but who cares? You are not afflicted with “oneitis” anymore. You are red pill aware men. You are grown up men who won’t lose his shit to a woman leaving. Just say goodbye and get another one. This is what women always do. Just don’t turn women into “trophies” in your head, always leave an open back door. I know, it is not easy to defy one’s own instinct, yes you will feel sad for some of them, for the time, effort
    and resourcens that you spent but it is your fucking life and you can’t ruin it for anyone else’s. Why would you? Just read Rollo’s books and do not put women on pedestals in your head.

    And you know what, if it’s been a long time, don’t be so hard on yourself. Pay for sex if you have to. Do not abstain yourself. The demeaning nature of paying for sex is a concept created by the very same feminine imperative, just to keep you on a fucking leash. If you are here, you are not on a leash anymore, just enjoy your life, in the best ways that you can.

  17. I see various guys say things that indicate that they somehow want women to think like men. E.g., “maybe you’ll come to your senses” or “modern women turned over a new leaf “. Maybe these guys think that under Patriarchy women thought like men. But that was never the case. Never. Under Patriarchy, women’s Hypergamy was mitigated to some degree. Men generally didn’t need to worry about it. And men who were “with it” understood that women didn’t think like men.

    Women CAN’T think like men because their brains are physically different. Wired totally differently. Men who suppose that women can think like men are still Blue Pill to some degree. Taking another step towards becoming more Red Pill requires accepting this fundamental difference between men and women and taking the time to observe women and learn about women.

    I can hear the retorts now. “You’re pussy pandering.” Ok, think of it as if women are just another biological species which you, as a biologist, are studying. You’re studying biology. Why? Because women are half the population and we cannot avoid dealing with them. It’s in our interest to understand women.

  18. https://www.thoughtco.com/samson-and-delilah-700215
    This is probably pretty remedial. “Duh, chicks dig power Rollo.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbIwIx8tpfU
    “I ask these questions because it seems to me that both movements depend on an adversarial state existing between the sexes. What would the inter-gender landscape need to look like for MGTOWs to deal with women or compete with other men? What would that landscape need to look like for feminism to dissolve and relinquish the abusive power it’s established over the lives of men?”
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/04/you-thought-you-knew-the-story-of-samson-and-delilah-you-were-wrong/

  19. When we were kids we used to play this game called whiplash,basically everyone held hands and ran in a crooked line the last one in line would inevitably get thrown away in the grass,the inertia made it impossible to hold on or keep your footing.

    It would appear that MGTOW is the whiplash effect of feminism. If we are really MGTOW we would stop playing their game,stop getting thrown.

  20. ASD,

    Good morning.

    Legally codified feminism seeks greater options for women’s sexual strategy. It’s a strategy, and is limited by human nature. Garbage in, garbage out.

    You of all commenters understand TPTB want our compliance, not our souls. Knowing this I give Ceasar’s what’s his and all else is up for grabs. All else, that is, what women really want, validation of a certain man.

    Desire sex goes both ways. Women want it, above all.

    MGTOW is stupid. It reinforces limited options not expanding options. How’s that helpful?

    MGTOW tightly circumscribe a life into what they can directly control, playing not to lose. Painting MGTOW targets around arrows calling it bullseye.

    That’s living an almost-life.

  21. @asdgamer “It’s in our interest to understand women” – very much depends on what you want. In work setting, or majority of formal settings, the prevalent model of behaviour is still very much based on male world-view, what we tend to call “professional”. That is, emphasizing logical thinking, mitigation of emotional responses and focus on results. That’s how men tend to see the world. Women who have entered those environments (corporate structures etc.) have adapted to this behavioural model because it is the most effective one for the job. So, for the purpose of forming effective working relationships with females in the workplace you don’t really need to “understand women”, it serves you no purpose.

    It only pays to understand women if you’re willing / likely to participate in the game. Those who intend to interact with women in professional capacity only (i.e. non-romantic / sexual) might as well spare themselves the bother. And that has nothing to do with “pussy pandering”, I’m just being pragmatic. If you’re into the game – yes, you will definitely need to understand women and this site is a real treasure trove.

  22. @EhIntellect: “MGTOW is stupid. It reinforces limited options not expanding options. How’s that helpful? ” – it can be helpful to oneself to limit options which carry risks that cannot be anticipated, or quantified. You can be in a relationship where you desire and are desired in turn. That relationship can, and has frequently been known to, change rapidly and outside of your control. Sure, there are many techniques and measures one can employ to limit the risk, but it is inherent and some aspects one simply cannot control or mitigate.

    Legal forces are invariably in the employ of the fairer sex nowadays, so you always hand over a significant degree of power over yourself to whatever female you decide to form a relationship with. Whether it is brief (ONS), whether it is a LTR with no cohabitation, moving in together, getting married – in all of those scenarios the judiciary grants that female tools to enforce her demands on you. ONS can result in accusations of rape. All relationships can result in entrapment through pregnancy, and so on.

    Yes, those are certainly options. But they are seriously risky. To me, on balance, they are not worth it. You are free to do whatever you want. You have all the information. As long as you are aware of the risks and potential consequences and still want to be involved, confident in your ability to stave off those risks through personal competency – all the power to you. But I disagree that MGTOW live “an almost-life” – they simply approach the risks, and their own means of mitigating them, differently. Judgment is a reflection on the one doing the judging.

  23. Handmade, many women are only “playing the game” in a professional world. Many go the easy route, getting ahead by sleeping with the boss and undercutting you with the boss after they’ve fucked and she’s lying in bed with him. Or maybe the girls in the office have a girls’ night out and one or more of them undercuts you with the others and lines them up to undercut you at the office together. Go ahead and blindfold yourself and ignore women’s deceptive strategies. Does this really sound like a good plan?

  24. Legal forces are invariably in the employ of the fairer sex nowadays, so you always hand over a significant degree of power over yourself to whatever female you decide to form a relationship with.

    Sure, if you’re stupid. But if you understand how to obtain social power, you can avoid the legal realm. And even in the legal realm, social power is important.

  25. If you’re into the game – yes, you will definitely need to understand women and this site is a real treasure trove.

    This is another element of the Blue Pill–that game only involves obtaining sex. Game is about far more than obtaining sex–it is about strategies for obtaining success for your mission in any social arena. Game is important in any arena where people gather in groups–at the office, in sales, at Walmart, in the mall, at church, at the country club, at the bar, at Comic Con, at parties, in a fraternity, etc.

  26. There is no END GAME for MGTOW. It comprises of men who are in the bottom 80% of the male dominance hierarchy. They have swallowed the RED PILL and are aware that they will never receive desire sex / unconditional love from any female. At best they will be used as a Beta Provider or a tax paying slave. Unfortunately, these men can elect either SURVIVAL or REPRODUCTION. And they choose SURVIVAL, because chasing REPRODUCTION entails a very high probability of being “zeroed out”. In the absence of “enforced monogamy” (as defined by JBP) there will always be a bottom 80% males who will have a losing hand, and eventually they will become aware that the GAME is rigged … by NATURE.

    Men have evolved to look for a meaning in their life outside of themselves. A wife and children provided that meaning. But when these men go MGTOW route (call it survival strategy or coping mechanism) they look for a new meaning – they believe their “sacrifice” (abandoning their sexual strategy) will change the power structure between the genders and restore “Patriarchy” when women and society realize that they are losing out on the productivity of these men. The Red Pillers will say this is nothing more than a buffer making “necessity into a virtue”. I am not a MGTOW, but I understand where they are coming from. The idea of restoring Patriarchy by checking out of the SMP is what gives meaning to their life.

    MGTOWs like TFM give hope to these men that “feminism is a self-correcting problem”.
    That this has happened in the past many times when great civilizations were destroyed when women gained power and eventually Patriarchy was restored, because, society could not prosper without the participation of 80% of males. But in the current modern “western” civilization, society does not need the participation of these 80% of males, thanks to Artificial Intelligence and Robots.

    The future is female with only top 10% of the males. The bottom 90% males are superfluous and will be “tolerated” as long as they are compliant (being productive and paying taxes) and invisible (relying on sex bots / porn), if they step out of line they will be “taken care of”.

    TFM says men will take away women’s voting rights. I say females (with 10% of Alpha Males) will take away the voting rights of the bottom 90% males. We will find out soon.

  27. “it can be helpful to oneself to limit options which carry risks that cannot be anticipated, or quantified. ”

    That’s a life of risk management. I get enough of that OTJ.

  28. A bit of hyperbolic exaggeration.

    I don’t buy for a minute that 80% of men will never get ” desire sex ” and my position is that it’s always a matter of a man’s knowledge base along with degrees of Red pill understanding.

    It’s the capitulation lebowski.

    Acceptance, fear and resignation. None of these constitute facts.

    Think about it rationally for a second: if the ” top 10% ” are having a party, why is that so?

    Projections of unmitigated power across the spectrum of all females isn’t realistic or based in facts, because biology. Biology is your friend in this instance, it you are aware. Women aren’t men and never have been – nor will they ever be.

  29. You nailed it at the end, Rollo. Third/fourth wave feminists and MGTOWs evolved after Marx’s Conflict Theory of Sociology took hold. They’re reactionary movements that can’t exist without the oppressor holding them down. Therefore, they have no end game because without the oppressor, they cease to have a reason to exist.

  30. @Handmade

    Notice some of the themes of the original post. MGTOW is certainly a hallmark of Monk Mode which is a tactical space in order to become stronger, smarter and more refined as a masculine male. It is by nature temporary in order to get a Signal for your purpose and Mission without the surrounding Noise. It might take a while. It’s not an end state.

    Dwelling permanently in MGTOW space is in the end not a masculine calling. It’s for lost boys and those that don’t want to engage in reality. In reality humans engage socially in groups (namely because these days there are too many humans out and about). Wouldn’t it be great to live with very few humans in small tribes (75 humans maximum) according to how our way to function developed? In that space, wouldn’t things all the sudden be less complex?
    Trouble is, thats now how your reality is these days

    Original Post Tags:

    Inter-gender communication–Reality is that you can’t eschew interacting with the other sex. You can be 90% in your own head, but the other 50 % of humans are female. They are right there staring you in the face each day, when they aren’t finger fucking their I-Phones.
    Positive Masculinity– as opposed to no masculinity or feminization of males (male pussies) positive masculinity generally involves interacting with women.
    The Feminine Imperative– Hypergamy doesn’t care what you think.
    Feminine psyche– is uniquely different than a positive masculine psyche
    Hypergamy– seeks it’s own level
    Intergender relations– are Mastered in order to harness The Nature of Power
    Male perspective–is different than female perspective
    Manosphere– is an information toolbox for men that is an interactive dialog with other men to deal with a man’s reality and hierarchical status in that reality.
    Relationships– will be had by humans, inter-sexual and non-sexual. “Denying the utility of Power, vilifying it’s usages, is in itself a a means of using Power.” “The one who has the most power in a relationship is the one that needs the other less” But you can’t go Nexting every single potential Muse out there. What’s the use of inter-sexual power there? To sit around and masturbate?
    Sexual Market Value– Comes from being desirable to the other sex.
    Social Conventions, social proof, society– You aren’t in a vacuum, these things exist. Do you want to be a Zero?

    ASD: “Taking another step towards becoming more Red Pill requires accepting this fundamental difference between men and women and taking the time to observe women and learn about women.

    I can hear the retorts now. “You’re pussy pandering.” Ok, think of it as if women are just another biological species which you, as a biologist, are studying. You’re studying biology. Why? Because women are half the population and we cannot avoid dealing with them. It’s in our interest to understand women.

    Handmade mentions dealing with women in the workforce. That may work when a man is lower in the workplace hierarchy. What if I employ, as boss, nine women and no males in a 1600 sq.ft. office? …and we provide provide professionsl services to lots of male and female clients?

    “That is, emphasizing logical thinking, mitigation of emotional responses and focus on results. That’s how men tend to see the world. Women who have entered those environments (corporate structures etc.) have adapted to this behavioural model because it is the most effective one for the job. So, for the purpose of forming effective working relationships with females in the workplace you don’t really need to “understand women”, it serves you no purpose.”

    Ignorance is not bliss there. I have lots of Power in the office and that leverage works for them, the clients and me. Mainly because I deal with my employees as females and lead them.

    “It only pays to understand women if you’re willing / likely to participate in the game. Those who intend to interact with women in professional capacity only (i.e. non-romantic / sexual) might as well spare themselves the bother. And that has nothing to do with “pussy pandering”, I’m just being pragmatic. If you’re into the game – yes, you will definitely need to understand women and this site is a real treasure trove.”

    So what you are saying is that you are low in a professional hierarchy and in intersexual relationships and you simply not interested in paying a price to move up with power in that capacity?

    Perhaps, at your age you might want to consider that if IT is a big Game, you might want to be good at playing at the game as A Man in The Arena (H/T Teddy Roosevelt). Do you actually want to be one of those cold and timid souls (a pussy) who neither know victory nor defeat? That’s not tagged under masculine.

  31. This guy looks a bit soft and probably blue pill (don’t know for sure. I don’t care enough to watch any videos of him longer than this one), but it still makes me laugh:

  32. “This is where militant MGTOWs and Black Pill nihilists show their colors.”

    What you’re saying about “power” is true in the natural world, but in the real world of supernatural witchcraft and sorcery in which we find our selves it is not a sufficient analysis. By “witchcraft” and “sorcery” I’m referring to evil wicked legal spells such as “The Duluth Model” of domestic violence. Psychology and biology and evolution and do not matter for squat when they have “The Duluth Model” as a trump card they can play anytime they want. “The Duluth Model” and other such “spells” rig the game against men in such a way that we cannot survive as men much less “win” without a plan to deal with the magic legal spells they have cast against us.
    So, what I’m saying is, a man needs to consult with competent legal counsel before he even dreams about dealing with women on any basis, not just romantic and sexual.

  33. @asdgamer – some interesting points. Some I agree with, some less so. As for women in the workplace – you’re actually right, there is a lot more going on. I mean, your boss can also be a woman one day. So, sure, whatever helps. My blind spot is that female in my role is quite rare so I generally interact with women in a x-dept fashion only. Sounds like I have something to learn.

    When you talk about social power vs legal power – this is the difference between soft and hard. In the end, hard beats soft. As I said, much can be done to set up your relationship using soft power but, in the end, should you miscalculate – you are still up against hard power. Many followed your approach, many failed terribly vs hard power. To be sure, many of those were unaware of TRP knowledge, such as contained here. Perhaps it would have worked differently for them if they had been.

    What turns me off personally is having to work for it so hard with rewards being so meagre in the end, and risk being inherent. I may not be as full of life as your good self, perhaps leading someone other than myself is just not for me; at least not in personal life. There’s plenty enough of that at work, so the burden of performance is just too much to bear for me outside of work. I am one of those men who Rollo described as wanting to come home and chill, be myself, have someone who I don’t have to set straight all the time. I know that women are not designed for that so I would rather be with my mates.

    As for social game – worked pretty OK for me so far. In terms of social standing it’s worked out OK, definitely doing fine on professional front. I suppose my position at work makes me at once not worried about anyone undercutting me and also very wary of stepping out of (however imaginary) bounds with female colleagues. I’d rather keep it dry and polite. So, yeah, I get the overall social game and I am not enthusiastic about intimate game based on risk/reward.

    Thanks for your responses, as everyone else I come here to learn so always happy to be checked.

    @EhIntellect: this is too funny, same here re: RM at work. However, as I said above, although likelihood you can close down somewhat there will be occasions where you just can’t. Then you find out about severity. I know so many cases second-hand (thankfully) where people did everything right and still got eviscerated through no fault of their own that it really brought it home.

    You should be thankful for the confidence you have towards being able to manage personal/intimate situations reliably. I’m less confident about mine because I have seen examples of different personality types I know ending up in the same bin.

    To be clear – to each their own. Everyone is their own man, entitled to nothing but their choices and decisions. You do what’s right for you and all the good luck to you. I do what works for me, I just wanted to disagree on the “almost-life” point. Saw both sides of the fence, got very lucky on exit of my only marriage (no casualties) and I like it far more now than I did before.

  34. The quote in the first comment is interesting. If a man were truly MGTOW, he would not be upset if women were not interested in him – he wouldn’t care because he’s going his own way. The quote makes it clear that this guy does care, deeply, that women do not find him attractive. It’s clear he’s not actually “going his own way.” And at some point the smoldering rage building up in him may explode.

    So what is the actual mindset of this guy who is not trying to get a woman but resentful of the fact that women don’t come flocking to him? In my mind, it’s true narcissism and a warped sense of reality. (I say “true narcissism” because I believe that most people who are labeled as “narcissistic” are not actually self-loving, they are actually extremely insecure and always compensating for that in manners that are interpreted by others as narcissistic). But this guy firmly believes that women SHOULD find him attractive because he’s so awesome. And if women don’t find him attractive it’s their problem, not his. And if someone were to tell him “maybe you should improve yourself to become attractive,” that would be an affront to his well-developed internal sense of awesomeness. This guy truly loves himself but apparently he’s the only one, which is why he’s angry.

    This guy also has a warped sense of reality because he truly believes deep in his gut that women should be attracted to the person he is. But one of the beautiful things about the red pill is that you cast aside the bullshit beliefs about women being virtuous and seeing a man “for who he is inside” and you actually see women for what they are – people looking for the best mate they can snag and using their own criteria, not yours, to make that determination. In that respect, women are no different than men – we are people looking for the best mate using our own criteria. Women who desire “Chad” aren’t evil or shallow, they’re just women. Men who want to sleep with a bikini model aren’t evil or shallow, they’re just men.

    But here’s the thing – the world doesn’t give a shit what you believe about yourself or what you believe women should find attractive. If you’re a 230 pound guy with a gut, women aren’t going to find you as physically attractive as a guy who is 40 pounds lighter and more muscular. If you’re a Cheetos eating couch potato with no job, you’re not as attractive to a woman as a man who has a good career. If women don’t want to fuck you, accept the fact that you’re not as awesome as you think you are and work on making yourself someone a woman would like to fuck. Cast aside your belief that you are perfect just the way you are and improve yourself. Or, in the alternative, truly go your own way and do it without anger or judgment of others.

  35. @SJF How very interesting. I’ll start from the end, because this piqued my interest reading your post:

    “Do you actually want to be one of those cold and timid souls (a pussy) who neither know victory nor defeat? That’s not tagged under masculine.”

    Besides a fair bit of projection and inference (not uncommon in the earlier part of your post) I object to your ownership of what is masculine and what is not. As said before – judgment reflects on the one doing the judging. If you feel that masculinity is defined by conquering female character – good for you; many disagree.

    What saddens me is that you disclose the degree of power and control you have in your workplace but appear to jump to conclusions without further consideration. You seem to have already constructed a whole image of me and are operating on this basis – my advice is as it always has been: stick with the issue, not with the person. Trust me, it’s very liberating and a cornerstone of progression in the corporate world. Perhaps working with nine women is rubbing off on you. I certainly could not envisage myself in this scenario due to diversity constraints… Maybe that policy was of use after all…

    The post tags simply emphasize the world view and are arbitrary, my friend. “Positive masculinity” – is this a trademark? Who says that it generally involves interacting with women? “The Feminine Imperative – Hypergamy doesn’t care what you think” – I know. That’s why I also don’t care what women think of me. Like for like. “Inter-gender communication–Reality is that you can’t eschew interacting with the other sex. You can be 90% in your own head, but the other 50 % of humans are female. They are right there staring you in the face each day, when they aren’t finger fucking their I-Phones.” – oh, but I can eschew interacting with me, even when they are staring me in the face. I am not compelled to do anything. I might change my mind one day but it is not for anyone to tell me what’s “proper” masculine.

    Your world is yours. Mine is mine. I tell you about mine. Fell free to tell me about yours, but don’t coerce me to live in it.

  36. Hi Rollo, this may have been covered elsewhere but just curious if you have devised a “litmus test” to say you are red pill. I realize this can deal with generalities but I’m just thinking on my own personal level that I feel red pill because I do not pedestalize any more. I used to do that all the time and have oneitis all the time as well (which technically should only happen once in your life by definition). It’s a very distinct difference that I now do not pedestalize at all when I was so preoccupied with it before.

  37. Huh, i never imagined that my discussion will be used as opening. Sure, im an incel but even i see going MGTOW as running away from problems. As for me, im just in good ol’ Abyss where hatred for women, anger for past beta movies and inability to make the last step mixes into big pile of negativity.

  38. “Besides a fair bit of projection and inference (not uncommon in the earlier part of your post) I object to your ownership of what is masculine and what is not. As said before – judgment reflects on the one doing the judging. If you feel that masculinity is defined by conquering female character – good for you; many disagree.”

    I think Masculinity is more defined by conquering male character defects and having masculine virtues as in The Way of Men. Strength, Courage, Mastery and Honor among men. Women are welcomed to come along and be a complement to that, not the focus of that.

    “Perhaps working with nine women is rubbing off on you.”

    Not hardly.

    I thought the issue was not having masculine power.

    It’s not conquering female character. It’s playing with female characters.

    Play with her, and play with her

  39. @amonymous dude,

    Most of your post is just conjecture about Jonas. He is not much, if any, of what you describe him as. You should go to the Post and read through the dialog that Rollo was referencing to understand what of yours is conjecture vs truth. Also, Jonas posted up thread, so you could ask him directly.

  40. What turns me off personally is having to work for it so hard with rewards being so meagre in the end, and risk being inherent. I may not be as full of life as your good self, perhaps leading someone other than myself is just not for me; at least not in personal life.

    Being a man–and developing into being a man–requires hard work and accepting risks. You might not see the rewards from your current perspective, but as you change, so will your perspective. I didn’t use to see social stuff as very important (even kind of dirty!)–I focused on technical stuff and was good at it. I wasn’t particularly full of life previously, in a social setting. But now that I’ve grown and become more adept at social stuff, my perspective has changed, even though I’m still pretty fair at technical stuff.

    So, yeah, I get the overall social game and I am not enthusiastic about intimate game based on risk/reward.

    As you become more adept at overall social game, your intimate game will necessarily improve as well and so will your confidence in your ability to accept risk.

    Is anger a problem for you when it comes to women? I can see avoiding women with the legal risks if you can’t control your anger. But then, a man who can’t control his anger is weak and needs to fix that. So a lack of control of anger needn’t be a permanent reason to avoid women.

    What is so hard for many men to accept is that they are deficient at being men. It’s so much more palatable to blame women. But it’s only when you look at who you are and accept it that you can work on improving yourself.

  41. I think the idea is if enough ‘men’ run off and join mgtow, the women get poor and lonely and want men back on equal terms.
    It wouldn’t work quite like that . Women have uncle Sam to transfer wealth from the men to them without being in a relationship. If there was a relationship she can end it and get a bigger payout from him.

    There will always be plenty of men not mgtow for women can get attention from, plus there are lots of cats, and when she gets older she can marry an exotic man from a third world country who wants a green card.
    That could get interesting, import enough third world men and they may set up their patriarchy here. With the legal definition of marriage already so stretched it won’t take much for a Muslim immigrant to demand legal recognition of his marriage to 4 wives. Equal protection and penumbras and slippery slope…

    Yeah, the mgtow might get their patriarchy back but it won’t ever be from women coming about. It will be from men stronger and more stubborn than them.

  42. @SJF it seems we entirely agree. Honour, strength, integrity, courage – this is what I strive for as the ideal of masculinity. This is what want to live by. The only point where I reserve lack of agreement is the final one. That is no doubt the result of my own experiences and where I am in life. I think perhaps we have a somewhat divergent outlook on life in general – but that is to be welcomed.

    Panta rei – nothing is set in stone and a time may well come when I will have come full circle and look at my relationship to womenfolk differently. Never say never – another thing life has taught me. In any case – thanks for the advice and your meaning well; all to scarce in this world.

  43. There are s lot mgtows who are not even aware of the concept, my local pub is full of them. Most of these guys are 35 + and have limited sexual contact with women, many have been married and were zeroed out several years ago. Some are higher income blue collar types, policemen, firemen etc. 30+ that have never married, they pump and dump for the most part.

    Where it all goes is as past history indicates, civilization stagnation and decay . Look to 1930’s Germany as a model, displaced men with few options are dangerous.

  44. You can call me an involuntary mgtow, or a recently incel. I’ve had a couple of LTRs (10-15yrs), a few STRs (not many), all of them went up in smoke. The LTRs because they cheated, the STRs because I was too embittered to allow them any leeway for bitch games. Single for the past 6 years. And there’s absolutely nothing in sight anymore. I’m too lonely, too old, too zeroed out. First of all, please note I’ve been reading and metabolizing TRM for 8 years now, so spare me the friendly pep talk, “quit whining you fucking pussy loser”, “just start lifting”, “just go out and fuck 50 hotties a day”, “just be more alpha”. I’ve heard it all and tried my best to practice it. I’ve learned very well that nobody gives a fuck. Women hate you when you’re down, and men don’t care. But these days, simply saying “I’m not okay” makes you a whiner, a loser, boring, a fucking pussy. I know and I’ve pulled myself up without any help whatsoever. Not boasting, just saying.
    For most of my adult life I’ve been struggling with weight problems. I quit whining. I’ve gone out and done karate, lifting, squatting, running. I’ve cleaned up my eating, gone paleo, curtailed drinking. (It didn’t help that I was raised among boozers and was always ready for a drink). It all worked for a while, then it stopped working. I became thin, then fat, then thin again, then fat again. When I was thin, I cleaned up my act and spent a lot of money in good clothes that I can’t wear anymore. Weights did not make me muscular, only thick and barrel-like. I suppose I wasn’t young anymore, but still. For a few years after my LTRs detonated I went out often, searching for new sociality, went to bars, concerts, discos. I genuinely liked dancing and I met lots of people, though I admit with most of them I was in a drunken haze. I fell in with women who would always play head games that pushed me to aggressiveness and finally walking out. Yeah I know, shit test fail. The 50 hotties a day part never materialized. Of course I don’t have game, but I only wanted a normal life. I played by the old set of books and I believed in Relational Equity. You know very well how that turned out.
    Now, at 50, I feel exhausted and defeated. I’m fat and alone. Running around the country to find opportunities for human contact is not so fun anymore, and all the things that come so naturally for other men seem to take me an incredible amount of effort that only pays off once in a dozen years then just vanishes like it never existed.
    What I have going for myself is I have interests, and money. I play guitar and piano with a few local bands, I write, I read. I’m exhausted, but not bored. Since I’ve been single, my bank account allows me to indulge. I want a motorcycle, I can buy it. I want a new instrument just because I like it, no problem. Learning and playing music is wonderful and life is worth living simply because of it. I am definitely my own mental point of origin, but that is no victory when there is no alternative. In a way, I have power over my life. I could take a luxury holiday pretty much anywhere in the world, but what’s the point doing it alone? Well sure, it could’ve been worse, I could’ve eaten a bullet from any of my guns, but I’ve no intention to do that. I am not crippled or actively hated or unacceptably flawed, I am just completely ignored. I’m in a good place, psychologically speaking. But none of this matters. By most standards, I am a failure because I am single, without kids, and nothing in sight for the foreseeable future. I could say in all seriousness I’m mgtow, but I know full well it is no point of honour. I don’t hate anyone, no one needs to fear any rage meltdown from me, but I do feel resentful. I’m not happy with this. All I wanted was a normal life, growing old with a normal woman and a few friends who would be on my side. I got none of this, and there’s nothing like it in sight for me. I can’t say any of this to anyone, because now I know what bullshit “Just Be Yourself” is. I just wrote all of this shit because once in a million years, one has to vent, if only to be able to carry on and keep pulling himself up. Cheers.

  45. Handmade,

    “I like it far more now than I did before.”

    No snark…past performance is not an indicator of future return. Yeah I get you’ve burned you hand on the stove and all.

    I’m not a good manager, so I don’t.

    Forcefitting her or anyone into my frame isn’t a long term solution so I don’t do that either.

    People recognize calm self actualization. That DPA thing. If you find your center, your certainty follows. The world as it is, bullshit and all, will be much more tolerable, even enjoyable when dealing with unpredicted vagaries.

  46. Handmade: “– do you think that civilization and society are inherently a net benefit to us as humans. If so, why?”

    I think the answer to the above would depend entirely on whether or not you are glad you’re alive.
    If the answer is, “No, I wish I’d never been born” then civilization and society (which are really just human animals collaborating to stay alive and create an environment where they can reproduce more) are not a net benefit to you.
    But if you want to be alive (not to mention the ability to communicate like this…over infrastructure having been produced by civilization, not to mention the ability to read and write which took some time to develop and required civilization) civilization is of net benefit to you.

  47. “You can call me an involuntary mgtow . . .”

    . . . but that would be an oxymoron.

  48. What would the inter-gender landscape need to look like for MGTOWs to deal with women or compete with other men? What would that landscape need to look like for feminism to dissolve and relinquish the abusive power it’s established over the lives of men?

    Androgyny. The battle of the sexes ceases only when there are no sexes.

    Great header art. Delilah got the seed and the money.

  49. The question is a good one: “What is the end game of Mgtow?”

    The answer is rather obvious, to me at least, when we look at the current field of play.
    That field of play we are all living in is post-war.
    The war has already been lost to gynocentrism and to feminist ideals. And not by a little bit, or with any straggling insurgents of consequence. There is no insolent rebellion of note. Not even Mgtows claim that.

    The war is over. And it was a decisive loss for men and boys.
    There is no tract of your existence as a man anymore where this is not both pervasive and in-your-face obvious.
    It doesn’t matter if you are 5 or 55 years old – K-12 primary and secondary education, university, the military, the world of work, sexual relationships and dating, marriage, reproduction, divorce, long-term healthcare and retirement.
    You have mentioned before that young male children as young as the age of 4 are being encouraged to question their gender and sexuality by care giving adults, primarily single mothers, but also teachers and therapists, and to become transsexuals.

    The post-war has brought regime change, new laws, and a cold war – which is where we are now.
    Men are adjusting to that new regime – female only scholarships and grants, lowered hiring-, and work-related standards in almost all fields, admissions quotas, preferential career advancements, unilateral female reproductive rights, the Duluth Model enforcement of domestic violence, false allegations, #MeToo politic, and the government and corporate endorsed wholesale vilification, criminalization and control of masculine sexuality.
    Can it get any worse? Of course it can.
    Women are adjusting also to this adversarial, cold war with men.
    A lot of women ARE coming to the senses as of late, and sadly realizing they probably can’t undo the damage done. At least not in time to benefit them.

    For a truce to take place, you have to find some semblance – however small – of common ground and build out from there.

    So what is the common ground to be held with feminists?
    Sometimes we seem to forget that the men and women who identify as feminists or who adhere to such ideals prefer to be openly lied to.

    They are not interested in the truth.
    It’s ironic because they get angry, offended and indignant when can’t seem to get any straight answers to modern day symptoms of problems (relationships, marriage, sexual relations, “equality”), but when you tell them the unaltered, veritable truth about intersexual dynamics as well as the importance of power being commensurate with responsibility and accountability, when you tell them about cause-and-effect….well, remind us – how do they respond?
    They hate it!
    They reject it. They call you a misogynist and a sexist.
    And then they threaten you with lawsuits, public shaming on Twitter and Facebook, financial annihilation and losing your job and future livelihood.

    How can a man negotiate a truce with such adversaries? And why would he want to?
    So that finally a woman out there somewhere will finally be nice to him?
    Is that really the best we can ask for as men?

    Mgtow doesn’t see a political solution, or a truce as possible.
    Yeah, in 8 to 10 years marriage and related traditions will be gone, except in the most credulous of cultures. Reproduction is going to nosedive even further. The welfare state will cave in on itself. And economic productivity and standards of living will decline. Women and children are going to suffer when this happens.

    That’s not an end game. It’s just a consequence.
    Mgtows don’t have any grand designs, other than self-preservation.

    I personally can’t imagine a sustainable situation where women continue to hold such high levels of power, authority and unilateral rights and feel free to exhibit open hypergamy witout consequence while absolving themselves of all legal and financial accountability and responsibility. I also can’t imagine the most conciliatory of men negotiating a truce to such tyranny either.

    I could be wrong, but the end game of Mgtow is irrelevant. All that matters is the outcome, which is not their design.
    Whatever comes, comes and the surviving men will adjust to that new regime also. And so will the feminists.

  50. “What is the end game of Mgtow?”

    Expectation that the “ennemy” will come to their sense and change their behaviour because, well, you sure showed these gals what they missed by ignoring them.

    Basically, regressing to a ten year old child’s world view.

  51. Good start in this article, comparing MGTOW to feminism is trite but true.

    I have not yet read comments, but wish to add that power struggles within a relationship (one on one LTR / marriage) have likely become more common because of feminist sloganeering.

    Currently I’m reading The Bitch in the House. It’s written by a an authoress, a girl who writes, and it’s a collection of essays written by other women, many of them writers, about their relationships with men, many of whom are writers or English professors. So there’s no danger of sample error, for sure.

    I can’t read too much at one time because some of the turns of phrase resonate strongly with crap that women have said / done in my past, which turns on my fight/freeze/flight reaction and stokes up the cortisol. It’s like listening to a really annoying creative writing grad student who has been drinking bourbon and Red Bull.

    All that aside, the usual no-win situations are very visible: “We agreed to co-parent! He doesn’t do enough!” followed by “He doesn’t co-parent like me!” (equalist equalism plus men and women as identical / interchangeable) followed in time by “He’s doing more with the children than me!” (actual female nurturing software running into careerism and pushing out envy).

    Equalist equalism sets women up to be men’s equals, but in many areas of life they simply cannot really compete, therefore they are set up for failure. They want power over others but cannot handle the responsibility.

  52. There are just enough signs happening for MGTOW to grow confidence in stating “See, we’re coming”.
    A columnist in Seattle writing an op/ed about why men don’t seem to approach her or other women anymore. A study on marriage rates shows up here. Another article about being freezing eggs there. I saw a tv news clip that was annoyingly titled, trying to be catchy I guess, as the middle child is disappearing from families. The number of married couples having more than 2 children is apparently falling rapidly.
    Sometimes it seems like the imagined end game is a scenario of all across the world after a period of men’s acknowledgement and interaction with women being equivalent to drone robots having just enough capability to sense objects in proximity to avoid bumping into them, that women will start to try to interact, just to be ignored. Like a Twilight Zone ending. Sounds fanciful but there’s just enough going on to make you think that something drastic just might happen.
    There’s been example after example of “Once again, biology trumps ideology” when it comes to the FI and the drastic things feminism tries to implement. And MGTOW is a drastic change if you think of it as taking hold on a wide scale. But the thing is, there are some aspects of it you can see clearly taking hold in a slow creep. There hasn’t been a time where this amount of men through words and actions have expressed, and felt comfortable with expressing, that they just don’t feel like it when it comes to women. And drastic changes usually take hold, whereas fads quickly fade, because of a slow creep.
    There’s definitely no “see what you’ve done” moment for the MGTOW. But I think there might be a few protracted things brought on by MGTOW. And you’ll probably see it taking effect with some changes you can analyze along racial lines as well.
    The number of black women getting married with dip way down.
    White women having children out of marriage will go up and along with that there will be discussion of making child support be similar to spousal support, regardless of never being married to her. With the rationale being even though you were never married, may not have ever lived together, you are a family and should be treated as such.
    There may be some changes in the number of annulments vs divorces. Marriage may be viewed more and more as knowing it’s temporary going in.

  53. “Are women attracted to Power?”

    Who cares?

    What man would care other than a man lacking power? A man who cares “what women are attracted to” is a man who lives subject to women. The need to gain or understand power in order to facilitate being attractive to women manifests a desire for women’s approval that is greater than a desire for power itself. If the man wanted power, he would seek and find it first. Everything else power brings is a benefit of self control vs being controlled by others. If the man is in control of himself, then he dose t give a shit. His control of himself defines his condition rather than his condition being controlled by his perceptions of what others want. Self control vs being controlled by others is his higher priority. Any man who seeks power in order to attract women is a man who puts himself below women. Such men doom themselves to being nothing more than posers.

  54. @Colby

    Turd Flinging Monkey describes the “War Bride” phenom, then uses the term itself towards the end of the video. I’m pretty sure Rollo knows about War Brides…

    It’s not even higher education. I can’t lay my hand on the URL but there’s been a strong correlation found between female literacy and declining TFR. You can check this by looking at female literacy rates in countries that still have a TFR > 2.1, such as Yemen, Nigeria, etc.

    Rollo’s question – what is the end state for MGTOW – remains unanswered. Likely for the same reason feminists can’t answer it….

  55. @ Constraindlocus

    “The war is over. ”

    “I could be wrong…”

    Ya think?

    C’mon man! Power off and take a walk in the sunshine.

  56. “I’m genuinely curious as to what the end state of a MGTOW society ought to look like.”

    In my opinion we just haven’t reached the point technologically whereby a MGTOW reality could even become feasible. I happened to go on a Sci Fi bender over the weekend and i watched my two Favourite movies Blade Runner And Blade Runner 2049 . A little Dystopian in nature but really representative of what society could look like if technology in my opinion was at it’s apex.

    Mind you I’m not so much interested in the enviromental aspects of that world , I more so focus on societal impacts if men were indeed able to purchase at whim and connect with artificial constructs vs real live women.

    In the Blade Runner films I feel that they introduced a lot of technology in reverse order, such as in BR 2049 we saw that essentially Kay had an artificial girlfriend that was at first essentially home bound due to his hampered ability to afford a mobile emitter. But when he did upgrade his AI his ability to explore his world with her also changed him as well.

    If you were able to purchase anything like this today I think you would seriously see a significant noticeable drop in men in the Sexual marketplace.

    Your unplugged guy who decides to go MGTOW can now have a functional relationship with an artificial construct that he essentially sets up to his liking that also learns his likes and dislikes through neural networking and who also never strays. Would he even need a woman then? That really is the question.

    Now imagine that you are legally able to purchase a “Skinjob” that is real and physical that is set up to the simulacra of your artificial construct and well it’s pretty much game over for society.

    This what a MGTOW endgame looks like.

    The amount of legislation that would have to be overcome for this to become a reality today would be arduous to say the least, but future societies might not have such a huge hangup about it.

    I myself am redpill and pretty much subscribe to making myself as the best man I can be for myself and not to the benefit of any woman, but I have to admit if the technology were there I might me okay with having my own Skinjob.

  57. Water Cannon Boy
    There hasn’t been a time where this amount of men through words and actions have expressed, and felt comfortable with expressing, that they just don’t feel like it when it comes to women.

    Why were taxes on bachelors created in the late Roman empire?

  58. “Are women attracted to Power?”

    Who cares?

    I’ve answered that question previously. Since we live in a social milieu where half the pop is women, most men should care enough to attempt to understand how women act and think. Even a Blue Pill natural should care, because he is liable to get #metoo’d if he’s clueless. Some guys get laid a lot, but suck at relationships…future child support lackeys. Even people with power like Weinstein are subject to women’s shenanigans. But still clueless….

  59. Rollo
    Ostensibly, the cover story of feminism has always been about some effort to achieve an idealized state of equality between men and women. This has never been the actual case, but even if we were to presume that this equality was tenable it still requires the players to ignore their strengths and weaknesses in playing the existing game and pretend that a new game, based on contrived rules, is now the true game.

    See “code of conduct” in open source software and various conventions. Not only are some men being required to play a new game based on contrived rules, a handful of mentally ill people retain the authority to change the rules at any time. “Change the rules at any time” is also what lies under “affirmative consent”.

    It’s all about filtering Betas out at any cost. Women can and have shit-tested their relationships to destruction, now we see some doing that to organizations.

    Therefor, MGTOW is a rational response in some situations, sorry to say. A man who is a nerdy fan of SF might just decide to not attend ComicCon this year, rather than risk running afoul of nebulous “code of conduct” rules that can be interpreted, re-interpreted and re-re-interpreted on a minute by minute basis. Fat cosplay girls “win” by running off the fat cosplay guys, but at the same time they lose because no other men want to even get within touching distance. The girls wind up competing for a smaller and smaller set of (relatively) Alpha men.

    The same dynamic can be seen on at least some college campuses.

    The choice is really between assortive mating and some degree of polygamy, but women aren’t really very good at that whole “cause and effect” notion.

  60. Women can and have shit-tested their relationships to destruction, now we see some doing that to organizations.

    Of course, men are blameless because there are no men running the feminist show.

  61. “Every time I’ve tried to parse out what happens when enough men go MGTOW that society shifts I’m usually met with some equalist future where women ‘come to their senses’”

    Yes, yes, yes. And the same dynamic applies to all social competition, not just the sexual. The modes operand is to convivence enough “followers” to go along with a damn lie, a false representation of reality, of the universe, a “hope”, a call to the way things “should” be… because its “better” for all. But really its just the weakling, the ignoble way of trying to rig the game, trying to subvert reality. This is because the lie, the scam, the false promise of a universal communal guarantee for every individual, is the weaklings or the less desirables ONLY hope.

    Imagine there’s no heaven
    Imagine there’s no hell
    Imagine there’s no countries
    Imagine all the world living in peeee…ace.

    Living in pee.

    Pee, pee, pee. Just piss it all over the world.

    Yes.

    Imagine there are no countries
    Imagine you don’t have to defend yourself from anyone
    Imagine you don’t have to accept responsibility for yourself
    Imagine everyone “loving” everyone
    Imagine everyone is providing for everyone
    Imagine no one has to provide

    “It’s easy if you try”

    Imagining is just so easy, its just so wonderful, so beautiful…I’m just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round…. I really love to watch them roll.

    It is really sick!!!

    All we have to do is just imagine. And if the world, the universe, doesn’t deliver what we imagine, then we can dye our hair pink, and blue, and green and make inflammatory and incendiary posters about anyone who is honest about reality. And we can yell and scream at politicians and the public and incite violence. And then when someone asks us what the hell we are doing with ourselves, we will just tell everyone that we are trying to help everyone get along with each other.

  62. @Tribal – I like your points and think you see things clearly.. It’s a good message. However for the 80% of men all is not lost. Reality is a bitch but must be accepted in order to grow. I don’t think any man is permanently down and out. You just have to focus on the parts of life you can control and make them more the way you want. If MGTOW helps with that, and I’m sure it does for many men, then great. Making yourself mental point of origin and taking the P off the pedestal is a must. As others have said MGTOW is not an end game unless you really just want to concede defeat, and no man should do that.

    @MarcoP – Thank you for sharing all that. You have your head on straight and see things as they are. Good. I think you know you could have put up with a bitch, have kids, and be bitter and broke. Be happy you declined to live that like, even though you’re understandably frustrated now. You’re far better than most AFCs right now. Be satisfied with the life you have built and look for women who want to enter into your frame/ be a part of YOUR life. I think you will find some. If not then it’s still 100 times better for you than sacrificing yourself to be an unappreciated part of ‘her’ life (frame).

  63. MGTOW use to be divorced middle aged men recounting their experiences with their ex partners. The whole debilitating and acrimonious divorce with a promise to one and all they’d never remarry. Invariably they do, though that’s neither here nor there. These men have social proof. They’ve been there and done it.

    The men who co-opted MGTOW are involuntary celibates. Men, worthy of our derision.

    Although their presence shouldn’t tarnish the otherwise, sound, core principles of the philosophy.

    Feminism is equal rights for women. The right for women to enjoy the same advantages as men. Men (by and large) had earned their position whereas women hadn’t. The state steps in to address this imbalance, citing, the historical disenfranchisement of women (merited). Money changes hands and laws are passed. Now a woman can financially ruin a man through divorce. The same privilege a man held over a woman at one time.
    When men had this power, it was their offspring who suffered the most. It’s ironic those children would become the feminist and their enablers of today.

    Feminism seeks the power wielded by those on the other side of the glass ceiling.
    A country is only as powerful as it’s military and feminism is loath to become that which it abhors.

    “Most of it seems to be awaiting an expected societal collapse whereafter women ‘come to their senses’ and somehow realize they really need men and voluntarily relinquish the power they hold today in favor of treating men more fairly. I’m doubtful of how realistic this is, but perhaps I’m mistaken in this being the perceived end game. Women of course would see this as being an abdication of their own interests – a surrender of feminism so to speak”.

    Women won’t come to their senses, men will. The posters Incubus_Rising and Palmasailor made two complementary post awhile ago in which Incubus wrote of qualified female nurses and dentists leaving those professions to go to the mediterranean in the hopes of meeting a successful rapper, producer or anyone who could afford to provide them with the life they feel they’re entitled to.
    Palmasailor then wrote of penniless middle aged women he knew on dating websites, too poor to afford a bus into town. The failures in Incubus_Rising’s post become the women in Palmasailor’s post.
    This isn’t to say a woman can’t still ensnare a man as seen by this link where a cookie lady befriends and marries a man with parkinson disease and gets him to change his will, not once, but twice to benefit her.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/780694/Richard-Jonathan-Powell-lose-inheritance-court-fight-fathers-will

    At present money is relatively easy to come by. Credit cards, business loans, personal loans, payday loans. You name it, it’s on hand. Men are quick to appease women with money as the value of it is cheap. With financial institutions beginning to tighten lending criteria men will once again appreciate their hard earned resources and think twice before relinquishing them.

  64. “…he has the appearance of what these guys think power should look like and he’s rewarded with pussy for it”

    “rewarded”?

    Is he going to get a treat?

    Is he an employee, a slave, a subordinate, a dog?

    It is all in how a man frames himself.

    Who gets “rewarded” other than one who is conditioned to perform a behavior for someone else’s entertainment or benefit. Here is what you have to do, here is what you have to become, and then you will be ‘rewarded”… with pussy. Who is stupid enough to chase the carrot, to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or god forbid to find his “soul mate”?

    Anyone ready to sign up? Apparently almost everyone.

    I reality, the “alpha” (but “alpha” and “beta”, what the fuck are those!?) but for our discussion, “the alpha”…. No, lets just say the man, the fucking man, the man who is in control of himself takes what is available to him. He reaps the benefits of being in control of himself and exercising his own power. Such a man isn’t intimidated by every little prissy nuance, by every potential trick or potential implied or insinuated threat. Insecurity has no tyranny over him. He is not a chicken shit. If he were, he would not be in control of himself and he would never sally forth exercising his own power and he would never reap the benefits.

    So, there is a world of difference in being “rewarded” and reaping the benefits. It is all a matter of perception. A man who reaps the benefits, simply takes what is offered. A man who seeks rewards never reaps the benefits because he is too busy “earning” the “rewards”.

    Which side of the game do you want to play? The one with false guarantees of “rewards” offered by others in exchange for you “earning” them, or the one with real risks and real benefits that can only be experienced by accepting responsibility for yourself?

  65. “I’m genuinely curious as to what the end state of a MGTOW society ought to look like. Feminists seem to think that egalitarian equalism and gender neutrality, and a world where men and women are coequal agents is a future that’s possible. I’ve read the comparisons of feminism with Marxism and it’s not too far off with regard to their stated future hopes. I don’t buy any of it of course. It’s been proven over and over that feminism is a supremacism movement, but I’m interested in what the hopes are for the the cover story of feminism.
    I wonder the same about MGTOW. Both MGTOW and feminism are ultimately interested in power – in the respect that power is the control over the individual circumstances that govern our lives. MGTOW make it very clear that dealing with women is an unacceptable risk (by order of degrees) and that until such time as the risks diminish to an acceptable tolerance they’ll simply ‘go their own way’ and avoid potentially dangerous entanglements with women. Sounds perfectly logical in a male deductive logic way, but what does the intended goal-state look like for MGTOW?”

    The future is now. We see this playing out now. Feminism was exclusively and until fairly recently an Anglo Saxon phenomena and it originated in the upper middle class. MGTOW, I believe, also primarily originated and resides with the same. The results are happening now. They began happening immediately as those phenomena first manifested themselves. The primary results or effects are a significant decline in birth rates, pregnancy much later in the life cycle, a notable increase in “birth defects”, an increase in self entitlement mentality, disintegration of the ancient primordial family tribal unit, gender confusion, social fragmentation and atomization, general devolution of the western culture structure, and its being subsumed by others. Don’t know what the effect will be going forward? Maybe the rest of the worlds inhabitants will embrace the same, maybe not. If so, we can expect the same results. Why would anything different happen?

  66. Rollo, MGTOW is inherently inward looking, so assuming these guys are motivated by some big picture vision of the future is a mistake. They simply don’t care. They’re busy concentrating on making their own lives the best they can be. It’s an overly simplified way to power (cutting the Gordian Knot) and you could argue that it’s an illusion, however, mocking them and lumping them in with nihilists is just counterproductive, not to mention mean-spirited. It reveals a certain arrogant conceit that tends to come out in your writing when referring to men who don’t have game, but are simply seeking safe harbour.

  67. Anyone who doesn’t think we are fragmented just needs to observe the fact that Facebook recognizes at least 51 different genders.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-each-of-facebooks-51-new-gender-options-means

    Gender has been fragmented from heterosexual (involving 2) to heterosexual and homosexual and bisexual (involving a confusion of 2) to now 51 +. This is sexual fragmentation of sexual fragmentation of sexual fragmentation of sexual fragmentation ad nauseum. Most of it has ballooned into what it is now just during the past few years. And make no mistake, it is being MANDATED by law as well as forced conscription via social fear mongering orchestrated by the emotionally manipulative main stream media tyranny.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/05/17/you-can-be-fined-for-not-calling-people-ze-or-hir-if-thats-the-pronoun-they-demand-that-you-use/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.93e6b159ea58

    http://www.californiafamily.org/2018/good-news-law-penalizing-misgendering-with-hefty-fine-and-or-jail-time-being-legally-challenged/

    These laws are literally designed premeditatedly and carefully painstakingly legislated to tear apart the structure of our culture. Make no mistake, your overlords want to destroy the culture. They want to destroy your identity of yourself at one of its most fundamental profound levels, the sexual level. They want to reframe life. And their frame is a death frame. This is because your overlords are not the ones nature would have selected by natural competition. They would have been culled out in natural circumstances, they would not have survived. They would have died of natural causes or been executed or sacrificed to the gods. Now the law, the state and its army of police and judges protects them and by effect enforces and advances their agenda. They are the result of a disease. They are pathogens, parasites. They seek to destroy not only western culture, but all cultures as they sell and impose their lies and the impossibility of universal equality, universal sameness where all humans are the same and biology is just frivolous attachments that can be exchanged like parts of a Lego set. By extension they seek to destroy the human species. It is the reality of life itself that they wage their war against. No species can sustain their insanity.

  68. They’re busy concentrating on making their own lives the best they can be.

    Shouldn’t they first make themselves the best they can be so that they can find out who they are? Then they’ll have a basis for a life mission.

  69. ” safe harbor “? Interesting.

    Safe harbor is a temporary thing for men. It’s used to regroup. Permanent safe harbor is for women, children and the elderly and ill. And that safety is usually provided by men.

  70. Given the purpose of male and female: https://youtu.be/_5OvgQW6FG4 feminism is clearly not far from a natural human female state – an acidic environment, marshalled immune response, obstacles, etc.

    MGTOW is a refusal to swim; the only state is non-action.

  71. > What would that landscape need to look like for feminism to dissolve and relinquish the abusive power it’s established over the lives of men?

    Remember that when a society is gripped by a meme, such as the FI, it won’t relinquish its control voluntarily.

    What will happen is that the affected society will have to compete economically and militarily in the international competition of nations. This is where the true worth of social systems gets tested and either sinks or swims according to its value.

    Think of the Soviet Union. It collapsed when its people simply couldn’t keep going under its economic malaise. Now, one must remember that it took 70 years for the collapse to happen. The collapse of the Roman empire, the Spanish empire, all happened as societies became too weak to send off external enemies waiting around the periphery. Occasionally transition of societies of societies from unsustainable models is managed, as was demonstrated in China, but collapse is the rule.

    We are already seeing the decline in FI-dominated western countries as they throw away money on SJW initiatives that provide a negative economic return, and as they waste money on military organizations bloated by waste and defense contractor corruption, and crippled by SJW interference.

    Meanwhile China and Russia are spending money effectively on technologies that negate the sea power that underlies the US empire and soon will overcome US air power, as the US cripples itself with the too-big-to-fail F-35 boondoggle while these countries move ahead with real technologies that actually work.

    Perhaps this photo illustrates best of all howthe end will come:

    http://helpingmisguidedvoters.com/qmeme_1458777362314_346.jpg

    The new societies are massing their forces for the inevitable redistribution of wealth and territory. And the feminists and SJWs will be as onsolete and gone as a soviet commissar from the 1980s.

  72. “Feminism is equal rights for women. The right for women to enjoy the same advantages as men.”

    Feminism is not equal rights for women. It is women vilifying men while simultaneously trying to be like men.

    Women will never “enjoy” the same “advantages” as men because women are not men. They cannot do the same things a man can do. Many can lie and certainly have lied that they can do the same thing a man can do for generations. But their lie does not change reality. And, men have not been the woman oppressors, woman abusers, that feminists have lied to their daughters and sons about for generations either. By far most men have worked their asses off their whole lives supporting families, dying earlier than women, dying in war, dying of suicide. These are not “advantages”. Does anyone think that being a slave on the corporate plantation is an “advantage”? How many women are signing up for the hamster on a wheel corporate slave program in order to earn money, so they can be “a good provider” and attract a mate to have a family with, or god forbid “find a soul mate”? How many women want THAT “privilege”?

    Got it?

    There are men and there are women.

    Got it??

    Men have a penis.
    Women have a vagina.

    Got it????

    Still confused?

    The penis and vagina are just two significant differences.
    There are many other significant differences.
    The differences exist at the organ level we know SOME about.
    The differences exist at the molecular level we know a little about.
    The molecular level is built on the atomic level we know less about.
    The atomic level is built on the subatomic level, levels we know almost nothing about.

    Why don’t some people get this?

    Why do some people insist in making up bullshit different than what we actually experience and
    what we actually are, then threaten anyone and everyone with incarceration or fines or violence who isn’t willing to go along with their bullshit?

    Why are we putting up with them?

    Equal rights activists want you to believe that people are all the same, that fundamentally everyone is equal. They want you to believe that men and women are fundamentally the same. That our biological differences are only frivolous and superficial. They promote the idea that “what really matters” is “what’s inside a person” and “inside” we are all the same. We are NOT the same, but this is their mantra and they sell it to you couched in the pretense that it is promoted to generate “equal respect” and “equal opportunity”. But this is also a lie. This is a lie because if they really respected anyone, they would respect the differences instead of vilifying anyone and everyone who they even suspect may point out the differences. You see, their aim is not to encourage equal respect. Their aim is to stimulate a war between people over reality vs a delusion. They know very well what they are doing. The reality of life is that we are not equal, we are not all the same. This is a self evident blatant factual observation, not a judgement. If you think this is in any way blasphemous, then you have swallowed so much of their Koolaid that you have become their Koolaid. They are using you They want to destroy the nature of life because life does not serve them what they want.

  73. “Meanwhile China and Russia are spending money effectively on technologies that negate the sea power that underlies the US empire and soon will overcome US air power, as the US cripples itself with the too-big-to-fail F-35 boondoggle while these countries move ahead with real technologies that actually work.”

    I’m not going to champion the F35 (even the pilots who fly it call if Fat Amy), but I have to ask…what technologies to you believe the Russians and Chinese are working on that will “overcome US air power”?

  74. Rollo is respected thought leader. But I don’t think his generation fully gets it. Millennials have grown up with the smartphone. Dating apps are the new norm. On dating apps women only like 25% male profiles. While men like 50% female profiles. Only top tier males are in the game. The average male 5/10 has to like over 100 female profiles to get one match, which then turns into a date with a woman a couple notches less attractive than him. So the average male is relagated to validating some less attractive woman once a year by banging a woman he doesn’t want to call back, just for his slump buster. I don’t know if you call that MGTOW, because these men haven’t technically dropped out yet, but this is much bigger and growing part of the male population than in past generations. The internet is providing the data in aggregate now, this isn’t anectdotal narratives. The numbers are what they are. Not sure if that answers anybody’s question or just raises more.

  75. … how did I ever reach a respectable n-count prior to the internet ( mostly…) and ” dating apps”???

    How in the world did all those millions of previous males ever get ” laid ” or whatever?

    If you play by somebody else’s rules, you’ll get what they give you. Don’t complain.

  76. Imo, one of the fastest ways to accrue ” power ” is to not do what everybody else is doing . Or at a minimum, do it differently. If you look at a cohort of males all doing the exact same things, the exact same way, you can’t learn anything much from the comparative results.

    No need to duplicate another man’s failures. Create some unique failures of your own, and guess what? There will be some real successes eventually. Maybe. But following failing plans will result in mostly fails.

    Agreed?

  77. @ Eh

    My great grandfather used to tell me how easy we had it ( getting chicks ) because we had electricity and cars.

    My grandfather told me we had it easy because ” loose morals “. Lol.

    My father told me that I had an unhealthy obsession – but don’t stop.

  78. I’m batch’n it tonight.

    Am I staying in? Fuck no! I’ll be at the farmer’s market. They might as well call it the meat market with all women cruising.

  79. Farmers’ markets ARE a fertile field for day game, especially for my overripe demographic

  80. Blaximus @

    July 18, 2018 at 3:19 pm says:

    “… how did I ever reach a respectable n-count prior to the internet ( mostly…) and ” dating apps”???”
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Because of coal burners like your wife you dumb fuck.

Leave a Reply