The Nature of Power

From Truth to Power:

Real Power is the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we control the directions of our lives.

Are women attracted to Power? Yes. Why? Because a man who has it is in control of his own circumstances (to the best of his ability). People need to be reminded of this because we tend to think of power as some tyrannical dominance over others. Sometimes power is exercised as such, but that’s not what defines real power.

There exist a set of Beta men who hold this idea because it fits into their self-loathing binary understanding of intersexual dynamics. On my Incels post comment thread there’s a conversation with a 25year old guy who considers himself an Incel and his self-awareness is one that he’s hopeless to be anything else. He believes he has no power and therefore nothing a woman would ever want from a man. As he persists in this belief he’s not wrong.

I’m proud of my commentariat for giving this guy some kind of hope and inspiration, but according to the Black Pilled set all they’re doing is setting him up for failure and disappointment. Because if he attempts to empower himself he’d just be making himself a more efficient pussy-beggar and or/setting himself up for more failure. The game is rigged so stop playing it, right? And even if he had the kind of access to women he wished for ‘the juice isn’t worth the squeeze’ is the circular logic, and he’d only be a failure from within a success – or something like that.

The old saying goes, ‘Everything is about sex, except sex; sex is about power’. But what is ‘power‘? The degree to which a person has control over circumstances that would otherwise govern their lives. But power is always measured by how it fits into a particular context, so in this instance that power is a control over sexual experience, gratification and ultimately reproduction. And really, this is the basis of how Hypergamy has become the socialized, prime-directive that is gynocentrism. What is the latent purpose of a feminine-primary social order? Empowering women to unilaterally control their reproductive circumstances and then as much of their own lives as follows that imperative.

Power is one aspect of attraction (sometimes arousal) for women. I would also say, by this definition, that power is an aspect of a man being Alpha, but it isn’t the only aspect. I can point to a lot of men who have no real power, influence, affluence or even social proof who nonetheless pull women and have women pull him because they have a look that fit a woman’s sexual ideal and/or had an Alpha mindset. I have been that guy.

Power is not a prerequisite for being Alpha, but the appearance of, the potential for, power certainly is. Remember, women are hardwired to seek out competency in men as part of their innate need for security in all its forms. This is why I make the distinction between power being ‘attractive’ to a woman (in the long term Beta Need side of Hypergamy) and not always an element in arousal – though when paired with an arousing man power is intoxicating for women sexually.

The appearance of, or potential for, real power in a man represents competency in his capacity to control the circumstances that would dictate the terms of his life. If a woman is to ultimately pair monogamously with a man, his access to power will ultimately dictate the terms of her life while paired with that man. So it follows that power would be a selected-for aspected of female attraction.

This is probably pretty remedial. “Duh, chicks dig power Rollo.”

Power is a part of that Alpha ideal, but the question to ask is why is power attractive to a woman? This is where militant MGTOWs and Black Pill nihilists show their colors. Most will say it’s because they want control or some parasitic association with a powerful man to further their own ends. In essence it’s about a need to control their circumstances by using a male proxy to exercise their own self-serving plans. It’s all very melodramatic until you pick apart the latent purposes of female power.

From an evolutionary perspective, what these guys think is “power” is really just social dominance, preselection and a good physique. That’s why they’re obsessed with the “Chad” archetype that bullied them in high school. That guy seems “powerful” and made a lasting impression on them because he effortlessly got women and reminds them of what they’re not. Whether or not the guy is genuinely ‘powerful’ in the sense that he’s in control of his own destiny is irrelevant – he has the appearance of what these guys think power should look like and he’s rewarded with pussy for it.

So, what to do? Do the same shit feminists do; change the game and try to convince everyone that they are the real deal and the world that they figured out (really constructed) on their own is the ‘real’ game everyone ought to be playing. Unless you’re Thundercock the Barbarian, which you never are, all you’re doing is trying to be like him, which amounts to you accruing ‘power’, (however they define it) no matter how self-interested you think you are, with the sole purpose of giving it away to a woman – which she will use to more completely own you, because, that’s “just how women are.”

Feminists do the same thing from their own base of interest. They cannot compete for Darwinistic reproductive success with women whose SMV outclasses their own.

Solution: Change the game to suit their lesser capacity to compete; embrace fat-positivity, shame men for their innate sexual choices and expressions, disqualify hot women by disempowering and stigmatizing their strengths. Ban Grid Girls, cheerleaders on TV and remove the swimsuits from Miss America.

All of these are adaptive strategies for increasing reproductive success. The problem is nature confounds these efforts over and over again. The idea is to change the rules of the game; to literally control the reality and context in which it’s played in order to make the ones changing it the superior players. Rather than find the cheat codes to play the existing game in ‘God Mode’ the idea is to just rewrite the game to suit their skills.

Ostensibly, the cover story of feminism has always been about some effort to achieve an idealized state of equality between men and women. This has never been the actual case, but even if we were to presume that this equality was tenable it still requires the players to ignore their strengths and weaknesses in playing the existing game and pretend that a new game, based on contrived rules, is now the true game. The problem is they can never get everyone to participate in the new game. The fact remains that we evolved to compete in a naturalistic game and most people instinctively get this reality even when they espouse a belief in the new game.

Beautiful women will aspire to a feminist-contrived norm, but on a root level of consciousness they understand that their beauty and sexuality puts them above their less beautiful sisters. This again is a form of power. It provides them a control advantage over their life circumstances and their hindbrains wont allow any pretense of a level playing field stop them from exercising it.

End Games

The same principle applies to the ends of MGTOW. I’m not even sure what the consensus is as to what an idealized outcome between the genders might be for a MGTOW mindset. Every time I’ve tried to parse out what happens when enough men go MGTOW that society shifts I’m usually met with some equalist future where women ‘come to their senses’ and take responsibility for their own actions. That and crypto currencies seem to be what the future MGTOW utopia looks like.

I’m not being flippant here. I’m genuinely curious as to what the end state of a MGTOW society ought to look like. Feminists seem to think that egalitarian equalism and gender neutrality, and a world where men and women are coequal agents is a future that’s possible. I’ve read the comparisons of feminism with Marxism and it’s not too far off with regard to their stated future hopes. I don’t buy any of it of course. It’s been proven over and over that feminism is a supremacism movement, but I’m interested in what the hopes are for the the cover story of feminism.

I wonder the same about MGTOW. Both MGTOW and feminism are ultimately interested in power – in the respect that power is the control over the individual circumstances that govern our lives. MGTOW make it very clear that dealing with women is an unacceptable risk (by order of degrees) and that until such time as the risks diminish to an acceptable tolerance they’ll simply ‘go their own way’ and avoid potentially dangerous entanglements with women. Sounds perfectly logical in a male deductive logic way, but what does the intended goal-state look like for MGTOW?

I’ve yet to get a clear consensus on this. Most of it seems to be awaiting an expected societal collapse whereafter women ‘come to their senses’ and somehow realize they really need men and voluntarily relinquish the power they hold today in favor of treating men more fairly. I’m doubtful of how realistic this is, but perhaps I’m mistaken in this being the perceived end game. Women of course would see this as being an abdication of their own interests – a surrender of feminism so to speak, but what does an acceptable ‘truce’ between men and women look like to feminists as well as MGTOWs?

I ask these questions because it seems to me that both movements depend on an adversarial state existing between the sexes. What would the inter-gender landscape need to look like for MGTOWs to deal with women or compete with other men? What would that landscape need to look like for feminism to dissolve and relinquish the abusive power it’s established over the lives of men?

339 comments

  1. Imo, one of the fastest ways to accrue ” power ” is to not do what everybody else is doing . Or at a minimum, do it differently.

    When I dance, I dance to the beat of the music, which is different than all the other guys. When I go out and don’t dance, I circulate and chat up various people and mess with strangers and make them feel important. Which is different than all the other guys.

  2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z49ixqSFAE&t=946s

    Maybe you should watch some of FaceandLMS videos. MGTOW, for many men is a cope. It should be MSTOW, mrn sent their own way. Let’s face it, many of those men are physically unappealing and aren’t neurotypical to boot. And game helps most if you are a decently looking and built guy who may need improvement in the area of social skills and/or confidence.

    But no amount of game will have a 5’3 balding, potbellied, 44 year old Indian slaying barely legal college cuties. He can only make up for that with lots of money.

  3. But no amount of game will have a 5’3 balding, potbellied, 44 year old Indian slaying barely legal college cuties.

    Would you believe that a 65 y.o. obese Jewish troll was banging models? Henry Kissinger. Sure, he was rich, but more than that, he had awesome social skills as well as power. And Game to boot. Without Game and social skills, no amount of money will help.

    A mid-20s hottie I didn’t know was bumping her butt against mine last Fri. night. I tried to get her to stop using swats (without turning to look at her), but that failed, then I bumped her butt hard with mine and she stumbled. Then I turned to look at her and was surprised how beautiful she was. So I grabbed her by the waist and pulled her in as we lasered each other and told her to kiss me or hit the road. The kiss was pathetic, so I moved on.

    NB

    I don’t have movie star good looks and I’m old and bald and fat. But I am white, so there’s that.

  4. Oh, I have shit for money, lol. Social Security and an IRA. But I don’t resemble a whale in any shape, manner, or form.

    NB

    A whale is a rich guy who spends a lot of money.

  5. I’ll start by saying I’ve been reading you for years and you’ve made a difference in my life. Thank you.

    The end game is death just as it always has been. MGTOW walkouts, used up post Wall feminist hags, bitter aging high notch count redpilled guys like Roosh and Delicious Tacos and myself, the young men you’re telling not to get married, we’ll all end up the same. We’re going to die without reproducing and be replaced by those who do. Whoever they may be.

    In the meantime I don’t blame the losers for dropping out. I’ve had everything going for me and the notch count to show for it from my younger years, and even I’m starting to wonder if it’s worth the trouble. Post Instagram post Tinder post SJW insanity, women are awful now. Gaming 5s takes real effort because they think they deserve royalty. Making anything work beyond short term sex is pointless because they bring nothing to the table except entitlement.

    I’ll keep going because that’s what a man does, but the optimism I once had is gone.

  6. Farmers market? That’s like taking a class in pottery at the junior college with post wall middle age white women. Thats some low level game. Might as well stay home and tazer your junk and post the vid to youtube for shits and giggle.

  7. Hahaha! “Farmer’s Market day game” huh? An untested venue for me… Hell, I even grow my own produce.. 😁 I’ll have to check this out!

    I just flirted with and for months now have been banging the hottie who cut my hair. I know that each man has his own strengths and battles to win, but this game shit isn’t as impossible as many make it out to be. I was truly concerned when I got divorced 2 years ago.. Do I still have game (I was never a ‘Chad’ even in my prime), where am I going to meet attractive women, etc..
    The biggest obstacle most men have is just finding their own natural self confidence. Make your life one that YOU enjoy first, and one that some women will be interested in. You won’t get them all and that’s fine, no man does. Learn to read IOIs and shamelessly invite these women to try you. Hold frame for God’s sake, and enjoy the ride. Remember that her imagination is your best friend in getting her intimacy. Don’t go overboard and act something you aren’t though, just do you and ‘play with’ her…
    The best thing I ever did was let go of the ‘pressure’ of feeling like I needed a woman to meet some societal standard of manhood or success.

  8. My prediction is that as more and more men go MGTOW, the amount of men going MGTOW from an earlier age will increase in proportion.

    This will mean more men that are not financially raped by the divorce courts and more men that will not have to spend money on raising kids.

    With the extra money and time that the MGTOW lifestyle will free up, a proportion of women will adapt by “selling their time and sex” to men in an openly stated manner.

    We are already seeing it with Sugar Daddy type websites.

    I expect that these sort of websites will become increasingly common.

    Why buy when you can hire and upgrade when you feel like it?
    After all; we all know that a woman’s love is entirely conditional.
    So men will adapt by controlling the conditions and women will adapt by accepting them in a mutually beneficial, openly stated context.

  9. The following is in no particular order.

    In my opinion TRP is a subset of MGTOW, not the other way round. By definition if you’re not buying into the societal narrative then you’re going your own way so you’re MGTOW.

    So we’re all MGTOW – But we define what that means for us, not anyone else.

    The only thing we have in common is that we refuse to comply with the societal expectations that don’t suit us. Non compliance of the plow horse on the sort of scale we are reaching is dangerous so they want to shut it down.

    It’s therefore convenient for them to badge us all as Incel / losers / neckbeards / unemployed / you name it, anything derogatory. Some vocal ones are – but a lot are not and this is just standard shaming that no one with a brain takes any notice of now. They don’t want us challenging the machine, they want us back on the fuckin plantation and paying our taxes.

    In terms of an end game, nothing has changed in what will be the eventual Darwinian outcome. Red Pill, MGTOW, Feminism will all be gone in the blink of an eye and the fittest will survive. (the fittest to adapt that is).

    Beautiful women have never needed feminism. They got what they wanted from men without it. Most women would be attractive enough to get what they want from most men if they remained feminine and kept the weight off; but that’s hard work and they’ve been told a lot of bullshit so they don’t do it.

    Fat and ugly women (most of them) therefore need another way to obtain what they want from men / the state hence feminism.

    Our lifetimes are the equivalent of a nanosecond in the long game. Some asshole decides to cut his cock off and grow tits? Who gives a fuck? that boys a gonner from the gene pool, and thank god for that.

    Wanna bloat up to the size of a small military vehicle, tattoo your face, die your hair green and insist you are still ‘beautiful’? You go grrrrl – good luck with that. Obesity is the second largest preventable cause of cancer and if that doesn’t get you Diabetis / blood pressure probably will. It’s unlikely you’ll breed and even if you do your options will be so limited that it won’t be with genetic A stock so that lineage will end sooner rather than later.

    Will women come to their senses? Well assuming they ever had any sense in the first place, I think not. If they do it won’t be soon enough to make any difference to us commenting here or probably our children.

    I do think that a Black Swan event might hit, and I still think that this will be Sexbots. I’ve been watching Turd Flinging Monkey and I spoke to him via Twitter. He’d like to convince himself that his doll has replaced women, and he talks about getting the hormone dump with her that you don’t get with a wank. I asked if he had pair bonded with her and he ducked and dived and squirmed round the answer; but the answer was ‘no, he hadn’t’. Essentially it was a posh wank. I still believe that a lot of men will get the best release available to them via ever improving sexbot technology. That doesn’t mean that they will pair bond but they’ll get the next best thing and this may prompt them to give up the pursuit of real women which would be the tipping point for society as bulk free validation would cease.

    The vast reduction of, or end of free validation that (beta) men give to women via social media (no Alpha worth his salt does this) is the interesting bit. Then think about an extinction curve. So it’s the rat in the cage thing. It pushes the button to get the pellet. If the machine dishes out pellets at random then the rat keeps pushing the button, however If the machine completely stops dispensing the pellet then the rat goes more and more nuts pushing the button until it realizes that this behavior no longer achieves the desired result so it stops doing it.

    As we speak, millions and millions of beta men are hitting the like button hundreds of times a day on social media and this is giving a free endorphie/dopamine hit to women (I’d love to know the statistics). Whilst the men get random reinforcement (the odd lay or a reciprocal ‘like’) the activity will continue; but when it reaches the point where men realise it’s futile (or they get most of what they want easier somewhere else) then the activity will stop. – Cue nervous breakdowns of half the women in the west.

    I would argue that most mens experience with online dating right now is some way down the extinction curve, in that the reinforcement is so in frequent that they close to dropping it completely.

    Recently I was on a country walk with a group including old post wall hags. A buff shirtless jogger went past and they literally howled and cat called him asking if he was single etc.. No man could ever do that to a woman in the current environment, and the protagonists would have been the first to call you out if you tried it. I called them out on it and told them to stop harassing him and they were stunned. This is what women would have to resort to if free (any) validation stopped. The balance of power would have tipped.

    I’m not going to quote JBP apart from the Lobster thing as reading him is the only way I learned bout them. Basically they have lasted 350 million years and quite simply 80%+ of the males don’t get to breed – period.

    They fight for territory with another male, they either win, in which case the females literally offer it up on a plate or they lose.

    If they lose some are killed, but others get such a bad kicking that their brain dissolves and they grow a new one that accepts their new lowly status as a survival mechanism. (I reckon a few go to the pub and bitch to their mates over a pint as well).

    I would argue that a lot of what we see going on is the equivalent of the brain dissolving in men and they are growing a new one that accepts their new lowly status as a survival mechanism.

    In the short term of our lifetimes we need to adapt to get what we want from women and society on our own terms. That’s all that’s relevant for us right now. The Red Pill and Game are probably the largest tools in the box.

  10. The farmer’s market is urban. There’s music venues and lots of food, alcohol, beer tents.

    The time of day draws the after office crowd and the suburban girls from well, 14 to 50. The women dress to impress. The nearby bars offer drinking deals and certain bars along the venu cater to certain crowds. One in particular caters to 40+ singles. The street is where the younger set game.

    Assume what you will, Fact.

    “Tazer your junk…”

    Your inexperience is showing. Everyone here knows you haven’t done anything worthwhile but please do go on commenting. Not trolling you…just an observation.

  11. @Face
    Well you’re right, there’s a lot of 50-something granola chicks, but at least they’re usually slender — on that diet of wheatgrass and kale, you know. And I don’t mind when women with nice hair let it go all silver. Just don’t get into politics with ’em!

    If you know how to cook and you look like you know what you’re doing with odd ingredients — at a veggie stand or especially at a fish market — reasonably shit-together middle-age women will chat you up. At my age there is no such thing as a bad IOI

  12. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Al7cELoLg
    “But in the years after my book came out, I had to watch a rival theory gain ground-namely, that sex flushes damaging mutations from the genome by remixing genes to expose bad ones. For much of the last two decades, the two theories have battled it out in the pages of journals, mainly in the form of rival mathematical models, on the whole demonstrating little but that models can support anything if you put the right assumptions in.

    Now, however, I am confident that the Red Queen holds the battlefield. She has vanquished her rivals largely because of a series of simple and rather beautiful experiments carried out in New Zealand by Curtis Lively of Indiana University and Jukka Jokela of the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich and their colleagues.

    The subject of the experiments is a small freshwater snail that is often infected with a parasitic worm that it catches from, and passes back to, ducks. The snail can reproduce either sexually or asexually. It favors sex in lakes and parts of lakes where parasites are most common. That’s the first hint of the presence of the Red Queen.

    Various other experiments now clinch the matter. Clones of asexual snails have a low parasite load when they first appear, but as they become more numerous, they become over-infected. The worm adjusts its genes to target the prevailing clone. Clones of snails that were common in the recent past prove to be more susceptible than rare clones to infection by the latest worms; and the recently common clones of snails are especially vulnerable to worms from their own lakes. In deeper water, asexual snails are more common; ducks do not feed there, so worms that reach these waters cannot evolve to attack the clones (the worm has sex inside the duck).

    For mammals like us, virgin birth is no longer an option (one alleged event aside). We are stuck with sex, presumably because of the need to keep outwitting short-lived, fast-evolving parasites.

    It is possible that the Red Queen also plays a role in the details of mammalian sex. One of the functions of male display seems to be to advertise relative health. By picking the most disease-resistant mates, females have bred males that display themselves in ways that would reveal any high parasite load.”
    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/sex-and-the-red-queen/
    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/only-innovation-can-save-us/

  13. “Farmers market? That’s like taking a class in pottery at the junior college with post wall middle age white women.”

    Maybe you’re shopping on the wrong side of the counter.

  14. Farmer’s markets, art fairs, street fairs of any stripe… All bomb game opportunities. Better than clubs imo because the girls have their guard down and a good open carries more impact with less distraction.

    Remember they are not reeeeaaaaalllly going out to by hydroponic lettuce .;)

  15. @theasdgamer

    You said: Would you believe that a 65 y.o. obese Jewish troll was banging models? Henry Kissinger. Sure, he was rich, but more than that, he had awesome social skills as well as power. And Game to boot. Without Game and social skills, no amount of money will help.

    Me: His game and social skills were icing on top of the already, very tasty money cake. How many average 65 year old retirees do you see banging models over 40 years younger than them? No doubt that some 65 year old men could at one time, but that time has long passed for them. Thirty years ago, when they were 35, I could believe them banging a succession of 20 something year models.

    True, social skills and confidence are needed, but you have to meet a certain looks threshold for it to translate into results. On the other hand, a good looking or even decent looking guy without much confidence and social skills won’t be living up to his full potential and maybe living far below it. But as I said, a 44 year old, 5’3 potbellied and balding Indian is in for a rude awakening if he thinks learning game is going to have him slaying cute college aged girls. He can go onto any campus and test this hypothesis.

    You: A mid-20s hottie I didn’t know was bumping her butt against mine last Fri. night. I tried to get her to stop using swats (without turning to look at her), but that failed, then I bumped her butt hard with mine and she stumbled. Then I turned to look at her and was surprised how beautiful she was. So I grabbed her by the waist and pulled her in as we lasered each other and told her to kiss me or hit the road. The kiss was pathetic, so I moved on.

    NB

    I don’t have movie star good looks and I’m old and bald and fat. But I am white, so there’s that.

    Me: I have to admit, I don’t believe you. But the question is why don’t I believe you. Because the more something departs from what I reasonably know to be true about the real world, the more skeptical I am.

    If you told me you went to McDonald’s for lunch yesterday, I likely would just take your word for it under normal circumstances. If you told me you flew like Superman into outer space and into the core of the sun, totally unprotected, yesterday afternoon, I would demand strong evidence before believing you.

    Your claim isn’t as extreme as flying to the sun, but it is more out of the ordinary than going to McDonald’s. A mid 20s attractive woman is unlikely to initiate sexual contact with an admittedly out of shape, well into middle age man (old enough to be her father) that she doesn’t know. At least if she doesn’t know you have money or you have high status, like a famous movie star. If Danny Devito said this, despite his looks, I may still believe him, because he has money and status. Since you say you’re “old” I’m guessing 50s or 60s. Only the most top tier of men that age can bang women in their 20s. For the most part. I’m sure exceptions exist.

    But when you hear a 17 or 18 year old girl say she likes “older” men, she generally means 27 year old men ( even 37 year old men if he’s attractive enough). She usually doesn’t mean a 67 year old man who could be her grandfather.

  16. Farmer’s Markets around here are pretty good, each time I go it’s a sea of leggings and tight clothing from mostly healthy looking women, pretty good place to pick up I would say.

    As for the original post, we currently have open hypergamy I would say, it’s interesting the effect on the younger guys in the office, I got two guys on my team who openly worship this married Indian 4(if that), had an older game aware friend who also was going down this road with this broad. There is a third young guy who is trying to game her but she’s pretty game aware herself so she strings all three of them around in order to get them to produce work for her, pretty successful, pussy can be very powerful when used in the correct manner.

    I struggle with this 80/20 question also, but I think it’s situational with women, you may find yourself in the 20 depending on the situation/context, it’s not written in stone per se. The one thing I would say is that commitment should be off the table for any guy these days, it’s just not worth it.

  17. Remember they are not reeeeaaaaalllly going out to by hydroponic lettuce .;)

    Girls are sexually opportunistic…it’s their default program…doesn’t mean their libido is on, tho. If they get a whiff of alpha, their libido will kick in, possibly without them even being aware of it.

    So girls herd together to buy hydroponic lettuce and get groomed (comforted/validated) by other girls–that’s what they’re thinking–they don’t even think about their sexually opportunistic strategy…they don’t need to think about it…it’s always on for them…alpha tingles => girl’s libido kicks in => sex just happens…girls don’t need to consciously “get it”…

    ASD happens if they become aware of their libido and attraction to a stranger.

    Otoh, men have to lead the sexual interaction and they have to consciously get it.

  18. Wow, the comments on this article are outstanding. Particularly the newer commenters who may or may not have been lurking for years. The MGTOW angle has hit a particularly sensitive point among us who have been either burnt in the past by divorce or who have decided for various reasons not to engage.

    @palmasailor July 19, 2018 at 4:16 am was a good attempt at describing the issue (brains melting and regrown). The regrowth could be towards a MGTOW direction or a RP/Game/Improvement direction. As we are all unique and our brain biochemistry differ in so many ways, I feel either direction is valid.

    I was lucky enough not to have been zeroed-out after a 28 year ltr. The laws here explicitly protect non-legalized unions from any financial compensation whatsoever. I do, however, have to pay child support for an 18+yo daughter who live with her mother and is going to school. But that aspect is formalized by the province – it works out to something like 550CAD per month plus 43% of other expenses like tuition, etc. My only concern about this is some of that loot might make its way into my ex’s pocket.

    In the meantime I’ve participated in the dating market these last 4 years with an ncount of 10. Most of the women my age (actually around 40-ish – I’m 59) aren’t really worth a damn. Damaged, flubby, and soft-muscled. Which is why I choose the SB route. Nothing (to me at least) beats a 19-20yo tight body and youthful energy. If I had more proximity to that age group I wouldn’t go the SB route, but to me it’s a reasonable compromise if I control the costs as I do.

    I agree with other’s here in that there’s only so much self improvement that can be done to raise your SMV. I’m short (5’5″), bald, and fairly socially inept, especially in groups. I lift, got rid of my glasses via laser eye surgery, and am fixing my teeth, which were pretty bad. So the effort is there and I feel so much better about myself – it’s not done just for pussy.

    So I go my own way in many areas of my life. I could choose to retire now but it’s hard to turn down 100K+ (CAD) for the next few years at a job where I basically work at one tenth capacity of what I used to do.

    As an aside:
    I propose the comments limited at 200. This may stop the recent degeneracy into pointless political debate and insult from the regulars who have nothing to contribute to the OP. Grow the fuck up boys – this is not your personal playground.

  19. Interesting experiment that demonstrates frame and “power”.

    After basically getting told I was being pushed out of my job I immediately got advice and started my own company.

    My first outreach to a few friends was “They screwed me over”…which I realized made me appear weak and out of conrol.

    I immediately changed that to “I’m starting my own thing…reaching out to line up some projects and seeing if you’d be interested”.

    Wow…the difference was huge. By demonstrating “power” over my own destiny vs reacting to a bad situation I realized that the being fucked over part…was all in my own head.

    This is the pivotal moment when you realize that abundance is a mentality, frame is your decision and power flows from that.

  20. @walawala
    You are an inspiration. Your progress and will-power has been amazing.

  21. @DisgruntledEarthling

    How do you control the costs on the SB thing.

    I’m in the same age group as you.

  22. I have to admit, I don’t believe you.

    No problem. The honesty is refreshing.

    Because the more something departs from what I reasonably know to be true about the real world

    …thanks for playing…seriously…great opportunity for analysis…

    …what you know?…or what you have seen (sort of)?…

    …when I have fun and am enjoying myself, I naturally work a room…getting in girls’ grills for a couple of secs, singing to them, moving on…rinse and repeat…

    …I chat up various people (both men and women) and make them laugh…they give me nonverbal validation which is easily seen if you are watching…

    …girls are watching like small rodents…opportunistic…

    …I show high energy and good social skills…

    …I show good posture…dominance…touching people dominantly and friendly…

    …girls see this…

    …I wear a cap, but even if I didn’t, they would rationalize away my shaved head/baldness…

    …they see my age and rationalize it as maturity…and they see my energy and it mitigates against my age….

    …they see my weight, but because I show energy, they rationalize it as muscles…(and I lift and don’t look like a blimp, but you can tell I’m overweight)…

    …you need to see things how women see things if you want to understand women and understand what’s possible for you…

    …so when I say, “…or what you have seen (sort of)?…”, I mean, “…you haven’t yet seen as you ought to see…”

    …seeing and understanding…this is our aim…

  23. There is no MGTOW utopia. MGTOW is concerned with the self and immediate family/friends, not civilization.

    It is focused inward. Feminism is focused outward – controlling everyone else’s behavior. Like an invasive weed. Eventually totalitarian.

  24. @palmasailor
    Don’t want to turn this into an SB/SD discussion board out of respect for TRM, but here’s a short summary.

    Contrary to most SD who seem to want to give it away, I’m a cheap bastard. My goal is proximity which is what the initial costs get me. I’ve never been rejected with a ‘you’re too old’ from SBs, which goes to prove to me that age is rarely an issue out in the wild. Her rep is the issue. Also, I look more like 42 rather than 59.

    So I’ll pay 200$ per meet. With my long term SB it went to 400$ every 2 weeks and meets were once a week, which went went up to twice a week, then weekend stays and more. I treated her like a gf and gamed her with lots of teasing and assumed mastery. At 19 she was pretty inexperienced and ate it up. The key here was keeping a long-term attitude with here and not making her feel like a ho (although the issue does come up from time-to-time), and keeping it clear I control the $ spigot and can move on to the next girl whenever I want.

    Now I don’t really pay an allowance except for coffee/lunch money. I cover tuition which is nowhere near what it is in the US. I game hard and the sex is great.

    The costs are manageable at the salary I’m making now. If and when Ii retire I’ll need to reconsider the whole thing.

    I could probably achieve the same results without the SB thing if I had proximity and wasn’t social retarded like I am. My fear of cold-approach is great and it’s something I’ve had since I was a child, be it cold-engaging people of either sex. Once in the door though, together with what I learned from MM and sexgod method, things are more normal. Doesn’t help that I grew up with a large stuttering problem which has mostly disappeared, but the damage has been done.

  25. @walawala
    Great example. At some point I’m assuming you not only reframed what you were telling other people but also what you were telling yourself. 90 percent of the game is 50 percent mental, as Yogi would say. So I’m struck by commenters like MarcoP who seem to have some positives to build on but still sound so down.

    I am generally pretty passive but when my business took a big hit due to 9/11 I sat down and found something fun I could add to the mix. It took months and months to establish but paid off for years.

  26. I still think the most significant influence is birth control and abortion. Both absolve women (and men) of the responsibilities and challenges of reproduction so they can enjoy the feel good without those responsibilities and challenges The power these reproductive interrupters provide is squarely placed in the female hand. Like I have written before, it is similar to insect control. Any chemical or hormone or homocidal practice that is designed to interrupt the reproductive life cycle of a species will also drastically change the social dynamic of that species.

  27. Sugar babies…why not just call them whores
    They are whores. But there’s different degrees of whoring. If you can understand that then there’s no point of further discussion and you can just scroll past my post, as I do most of your dancing monkey nonsense.

  28. If you work in restaurant business or foodie and you hit the farmers market because that’s what you already like to do, then do that for your own reasons. But otherwise sounds like beta game advice. You don’t want to be the one who is asking her if she wants to go antiquing on the weekend while she’s shopping for cock online in era of open hypergamy.

  29. Sugar baby dynamic is interesting, but at the end of the day it’s still whoring :).

    The mental gymnastics are mainly for the SB, so she can think of herself as not a whore, I would say it’s still a sub optimal setup for the man, as you are still handing out material resources directly. You want to get to the point where you hand out as little resources as possibles and that’s your default setting, a goal to strive towards is to have the woman bring you prizes, I’ve done it before when younger, didn’t give a shit either way but she ate it up.

    In Latin America, SBs are super common, order of the day for guys who have any excess money above what their family requires, even if they don’t most have a couple of girls on the side still.

  30. I’m lonely but not for that shit.

    Damned if you do damned if you don’t.

    Can’t live with them, can’t live without them.

    Those are all reactions to conditions formed by others. Form your own conditions. Recognize opportunities and capitalize on them. Women are not to be “respected”, worshiped or acquiesced to. They are to be used! Be the user not the used. No one can be the master of another unless they are first the master of themself.

    Use their expectations and yearnings to your advantage. Think. Every bribe works both ways. Every blackmail works both ways. All such “transactions” are recripical and can therefore be “flipped”. This is where opportunity often presents itself but is hidden to the average player. We are all players. We are born players in a universe where there aren’t anything but players. Even “not playing” is a players move.

    Think of it this way. Take a simple bribe. A bribe is an agreement, a contract of sorts. If you do this, I’ll give you that. The winner is the one who executs his or her end of the bargain last. Pretend to be “honerable” but NEVER honor your end of the agreement until YOU control the game. Let her be the one who leans out too far over her skies. NEVER invest too much by giving up this form of control.

  31. @Disgruntled

    Looks like a bargain to me. I have a number of plates but because I’m not exclusive I’m constantly gaming new women and it’s probably costing more than that.

    Downside is I’m not sure you’d get desire sex in the same way I do with the plates but I’m losing interest in the game to be honest.

    Straightforward transaction has its advantages.

  32. “Only the most top tier of men that age can bang women in their 20s. For the most part. I’m sure exceptions exist.”

    If only someone would observe these exceptional men, make note of what it is that makes them exceptional and relay that information to other men so that they had the opportunity to emulate them.

    What a world that would be.

    ” . . . a 44 year old, 5’3 potbellied and balding Indian . . .”

    Could get leaner, shave his head and put a ruby in his ear. Then learn game, because the former are only attractors, not catchers. If you knew game, you’d already know the difference.

  33. “I still think the most significant influence is ”

    Voting rights…

    “This is the pivotal moment when you realize that abundance is a mentality, frame is your decision and power flows from that.”

    Dilly Dilly!!!

    Frank – hypergamy doesn’t care what you believe…

    “If you work in restaurant business or foodie and you hit the farmers market because that’s what you already like to do, then do that for your own reasons.”

    Your own reason could be you like being around high concentrations of fuckable women, dipshit.

  34. Kfg

    “If only someone would observe these exceptional men, make note of what it is that makes them exceptional and relay that information to other men so that they had the opportunity to emulate them.”

    Preach!!!

  35. All this talk about nothing 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

  36. Women are not to be “respected”, worshiped or acquiesced to.

    +1

    They are to be used! Be the user not the used.

    Kind of harsh, don’t you think? If a girl passes your vetting, why not treat her like a vassal? Vassals who behave decently are treated decently.

  37. Ok, let’s have a poll. Who thinks I’m making shit up/exaggerating about my experiences going out and who thinks I’m on the level? This isn’t just for me…Rollo ought to get a post out of this. And if you could explain why you take the position you do, that would be an added bonus.

  38. Hundreds of women milling around aimlessly out in the sunshine is a good thing. But try to vet for dog lovers, not cat ladies.

    4-H fair coming up next weekend. Be there — aloha!

  39. @asd
    A little exaggeration can be a feature, not a bug. Coincidentally enough here’s a brand-new paper in The Journal of Social and Personal Relationships:

    “This research explores the possibility that exaggerating in order to entertain the listener while sharing previous experiences can increase interpersonal closeness in new relationships. It is hypothesized that adding exaggerations will increase the quality of the story, which will lead to increased interpersonal closeness, and that even listeners who are provided with the actual facts will show this effect.”

  40. @frank632 – this subject has beat absolutely to death by the regulars on this blog, so we’re all pretty tired of discussing it because there’s not much new to say (if you’re really interested check out the blog comments in summer/fall 2016 – especially the posts with 1000+ comments)…

    Sentient and kfg are trying to put you on the right track. In short: looks DO matter, but they don’t matter *as much* as you think, and their *function* isn’t what you think (this is what kfg is trying to say when he says they are “attractors”, not “catchers”). Other things being equal, of course it is better to have good looks than not, but it’s not that big a deal (assuming you’re not literally deformed or something).

    Since you brought up the “bald Indian programmer” meme, I am reminded of something West Indian Archie (the Game blogger and sometime commenter here) posted: about how the Indian guys *from India* that he knew were mostly massive losers with women (this is the stereotype you are thinking of), while the Indian origin guys he knew from the Caribbean generally pulled hot tail like crazy. The difference wasn’t in their looks or genes – it was in their attitude (which is determined by culture in this context).

    @DisgruntledEarthling and @Palmasailor – I’m 15ish years younger than you guys but I did a lot of SD dating (the majority of it was before you guys started commenting I think so you may not have seen the FRs/LRs). You don’t have to pay – you just have to screen for the girls who are looking for “successful older men” instead of cash as their primary motivator (they will still accept cash if you give it to them – it’s just not their primary motivation). It means more work up front but the results are far better on the back end – no need to pay and actual desire sex. I have never paid a girl from an SD site (except for buying drinks, plus paying for transport/gas costs a few times very early on before I wised up – plus of course the final encounter with druggie girl which permanently put me off SD dating early this year).

    I’ve posted about it before here, but I wrote about my approach in Blackdragon’s comments a couple years ago when he experimented with it (also pay very close attention to the commenter Dawson Stone who is around your age and has had considerable success with SD dating by using a very different approach from mine – a kind of high-value/non-needy soft mentorship approach):

    [Reposting with Blackdragon blog link removed – think it sent my post into mod – just google “Blackdragon sugar daddy” – it’s the top hit]

  41. @ASD – I can’t resist the invitation.

    I do think you are exaggerating/embellishing your circumstances, although probably not outright lying. I also think you imagine thoughts are occurring in the mind of your “object girl” that almost assuredly are NOT occurring. You are doing all of this because you have no inherent ability to calibrate your observations of behavior in social settings. You are well aware of that, and have been for many, many years, thus your “handle”. You have learned that you can substitute feedback from other guys as a proxy for the social skills you lack, so you post here to continually calibrate and obtain reassurance/validation that you are “getting the signals right”.

    Kudos to you for learning the value of that technique and the effort to continue to utilize it. It does appear to be a pretty effective proxy, but lacks the real-time feedback component necessary to the learning process of a typical guy trying to fine-tune his game.

    Sometimes you get feedback that you probably didn’t “get the signals right”, which you reject outright, rather than consider the merits of the response. My theory on that is, since you have long ago learned that you are unable to learn and adopt social calibration abilities, mostly due to that lack of real-time feedback loop inputs, you also know that you won’t be able to improve from the advice you get when it contradicts your expectations, so you simply move on to the next encounter/story/dance night.

    None of this is meant to be a criticism or to undermine your confidence. On the contrary, given your (assumed) genetic/social/cognitive limitations, it seems to me that you have created a system that works really well for you, and you are clearly enjoying your life as it is. You are living you for the sake of you, well informed about your own limitations and abilities.

  42. @theasdgamer – you asked, so:

    No, I don’t think you’re making stuff up. You’re obviously a fun, social guy who goes out and interacts with people a lot and I have no doubt you’re describing your interactions truthfully to the best of your recollection.

    I think people like dancing with you and hanging with you and you probably have good energy and vibes and you probably get some genuine attraction and IOIs.

    The problem is you don’t understand Game anywhere near as well as you think you do, and you use a lot of Game jargon without understanding what it means or being able to accurately analyze a social situation from a Game perspective. For someone who actually understands Game, reading your posts is a bit like reading a corporate-jargon heavy article or presentation – full of words like “re-engineering” and “innovation” and (these days) “blockchain” and “inflection point”, without any real understanding of the subject or what those terms mean or what is actually going on in social interactions.

    In particular (but not limited only to this) – you have no idea how to tell the difference between social interest and someone being polite and sexual interest, or what “lasering” means (pro tip: it is not just “looking someone in the eye”).

    But that’s more to do with your interpretation and understanding of events. In terms of actually going out, I’m sure you’re telling the truth and you occasionally get real IOIs, but mostly I suspect you’re perceived as the harmless, fun old guy who dances with everyone and creates good energy and vibes and boyfriends feel comfortable leaving their girlfriends with.

  43. “Any Jordan Peterson Fans out here?

    No.

    https://longreads.com/2018/07/12/petersons-complaint

    Laurie Penny, self described: ‘Nasty, British and short.’ Writer, journalist, social justice bard. Latest book: ‘Bitch Doctrine’

    That article makes my (eye)balls hurt. Wasted time…..

    “Prolific feminist writer Laurie Penny is mad as hell in her new collection, Bitch Doctrine . . . Expect essays on how the Trump administration is f—ing with us, how marginalized people are in danger in our current political climate, or how the inequality of women is never-ending. But what’s to relish most is Penny’s distinct voice and snarky takes that have made her previous works–including six books and countless viral articles–so popular.” – W Magazine, “10 Hottest New Books”

    “The feminist writer Laurie Penny gives us short essays on everything from the trials of being trolled to why exactly she calls herself polyamorous and genderqueer . . . Precise and rational . . . Provocative.” – Vogue

    “Bitch Doctrine is a powerful and fiercely funny series of articles laying out a radical vision of a kinder world. It’s a book that argues not only for justice and equality but for humor, for WiFi, for Battlestar Galactica and sugary tea and the pleasure of nuzzling your face in a dog’s neck. According to Penny, revolution and joyful diversion are not mutually exclusive. We can have our cake and our Cake Boss, too.” – The Village Voice

  44. “Bitch Doctrine is a powerful and fiercely funny series of articles laying out a radical vision of a kinder world.”

    So Penny is planning on taking herself out of it?

  45. DisgruntledEarthling
    Which is why I choose the SB route. Nothing (to me at least) beats a 19-20yo tight body and youthful energy. If I had more proximity to that age group I wouldn’t go the SB route, but to me it’s a reasonable compromise if I control the costs as I do.

    Not gonna be good for you in the longer run. The dopamine hits that your brain gets from renting these girls is sorta like what really anxious or depressed people get from their meds. Longer term you would be better off tapering down on the SugarBabies. Because be real: money / resources is involved as part of the quid pro quo.

    You can learn from these girls. But SB is a buffer nevertheless.

  46. @ASD:

    I don’t think you are lying or exaggerating about your experiences. But I am curious to know if you can GAME women outside of dance venue you frequent. I understand you are a regular and most people know you there.

    Talking about Indian guys, a few months ago I saw an Indian guy (true to the sterotype) at a club. He was alone, drunk and was dancing (making weird movements) in the middle of the club as if nobody was watching. Everybody had their eyes on him as he was just nuts blissfully unaware of where he was or what he was doing. Guys thought he was embarrassing himself, but all the girls around him were having fun with him, taking pics with him, twerking their butts against his crotch and being playful. That does not mean he was an Alpha Male. He was just a harmless drunk guy, and the girls were just “playing with him”.

    The question is, do girls flirt with you on the dance because they are DTF or are they just “playing with you”?

    In your mind you think they are DTF, but how would you know unless you close.

  47. As others have noted there is no end goal for MGTOW’s. As MGTOW is the man who stops making pussy his mental point of origin after swallowing all the red pill knowledge about female nature. Women “coming to their senses” is a delusion when you have hordes of pathetic males nurturing their solipsism and facilitating their infantile romanticism. If it was possible for all men to swallow the red pill in one instant and change their needy ways towards women then yes. Women would then be forced to adapt to this new reality! Quite unlikely to see this happen.

    On the other hand sex robots will completely make women obsolete! It will be a dramatic and subversive moment in the history of humanity! The hi-libido needs of men will be finally met to the point that the real woman would be considered too unattractive and gross to deal with in comparison to the customizable robo hotties!

  48. DisgruntledEarthling
    I could probably achieve the same results without the SB thing if I had proximity and wasn’t social retarded like I am. My fear of cold-approach is great and it’s something I’ve had since I was a child, be it cold-engaging people of either sex.

    That is a problem. There is a solution: approach more. Culum did 400 approaches, did you read his report? Yeah, your fear of cold approach is long standing, so the neural pathways are stronger / the “trenches” are deeper, but they still can be modified. Brain plasticity is real.

    I know it seems all “hurr-durr, jus’ face yer fears!” but there’s truth in that. Remember Blaximus wrote a couple of times about a fear of heights; he deprogrammed that out of his brain with measured doses of “look out this window” from tall buildings. Men who are AFC’s so much that they fear their wives anger have turned that around by facing the fear and eventually provoking her with Game.

    The cure for fear of cold approach is cold approach. Sales is all about cold approach. I know a high-dollar salesman in the industrial world who is real fond of “How to Win Friends and Influence People” even though it is a pretty old book by modern standards. Try reading that, it’s probably out there in PDF for free download.

    Once in the door though, together with what I learned from MM and sexgod method, things are more normal.

    Then your skill set is good enough. You are using SB’s as a buffer.

    Doesn’t help that I grew up with a large stuttering problem which has mostly disappeared, but the damage has been done.

    That doesn’t matter anymore. Your neuro-plastic brain has rewired. Whoever it was that had a stutter? He’s not around now. You are not him, and he is not you. Banish that ghost!

  49. Disgruntled Earthling

    If you were my red pill buddy in real life, I’d say that it sounds pretty legit to me (and efficient, to boot).

    I’ve seen it work in real life for someone that was very socially savvy, didn’t have the proximity/quantity of targets and was too busy MGTOWing. It worked great. And he wasn’t celibate with non SB’s either, plates were spun. And the cost was (relatively) ridiculously low for the services taken.

    If I were you, I’d definitely take advantage of that. It’s called disposable income for a reason, despite it’s often vastly more inexpensive than relationship game.

  50. 1. Everything Anonymous Reader said is spot on.

    2. The issue *for me* with sugar babies wasn’t the money or the price. It’s that paying them feels like cheating (btw, it is possible – way, way harder, but possible – to have desire sex with a chick you’re paying) and it rarely results in true desire sex. If it works for you and the “cost per orgasm” metric that some of the guys on that Blackdragon link works for you then great. But I never wanted to feel like I was paying. And that is true no matter how good the “deal” I was getting was. But like I said – if it genuinely is what you want and you are not using it as a buffer, then go for it (but trust me – you’re using it as a buffer – I may not have ever paid but I used online dating as a buffer for years to avoid having to do cold approach and I know exactly how it feels).

    3. One more note on the Indian programmer meme – YaReally actually covered this in his Archive but a lot of the current guys weren’t around when he was posting. If you have your Game/subcomms/attitude sorted (don’t have to be great – just pretty good), then having an initial first impression be some kind of negative stereotype can actually run in your favour.

    This could be “bald Indian programmer” or any other negative stereotype that is typically not something girls (think they) find attractive. If you then show them (not *tell* them – *show* them, through good Game/frame/subcomms) that you are actually an attractive, cool guy, and you’re NOT like other men who look like that – the fact that you are so unusual, and that you are massively exceeding their expectations is a major attraction booster…they didn’t expect to find a cool guy like you, but here you are (Scray worked this angle a lot too as a really short guy).

    If they see the typical looking Chad football player, they already *expect* him to be alpha in his behaviors. He doesn’t get extra points for that. But if the balding Indian programmer is alpha and dominant it can spike emotions and attraction like crazy (the reverse is also true: if a Chad looking guy *acts* like a nerdy computer programmer instead of being alpha and dominant, he loses even more points than the nerdy computer guy because of the surprise and the failure to live up to expectations).

    I don’t look like a nerdy computer programmer by any stretch but I am an average looking guy with an average physique and I look like I do the desk job that I do. Some of the most fun I’ve had is in conversations with a girl and a good looking wing where the girl starts of addressing her comments to him and looking at him to turning completely towards me and focussing on me as I spike her emotions more.

    PS – More Field Reports coming in August. I have a lot of time set aside to take things to the next level.

  51. It’s tough to categorize the whole MGTOW phenomenon as the motivations are far to broad to lend themselves to one standard category.

    For me, it was a transitory phase. To borrow a biblical reference, it was the equivalent of a 40 days in the desert Jesus spent affirming the foundation of his beliefs. My phase, well, it was an understanding that what I was doing wasn’t working, and not knowing exactly how to get to a point where things were working. Sometimes, you just need to strip away everything out of your life that’s causing problems so you can focus on yourself and what is important to you. It worked for me. I focused more on my life, about what I wanted to accomplish, and what I wanted my life to mean.

    The problem, as others here have pointed out, is when you don’t really leave your previous life behind and you continue to harbor the resentment over past treatment. In a sense, you haven’t gone your own way, you’re still letting your unworkable paradigm define you.

    You can never really completely leave your past behind, as we are the sum of our experiences. What we can do is understand how our experiences influence our thinking and consciously choose to react accordingly. What helped during that MGTOW phase was the discovery of the Stoic school of philosophy, particularly the writings of Epictetus, who pretty much decided that our reactions to life played a big part in our own suffering. Understanding that you can’t change others, but you can change yourself and your reactions to others went a long way to reducing the anger. I’m not perfect, and I have my lapses, but I think I’m in a better place now than then.

    Some guys go through the phase and decide that they enjoy the solitude and the peace that comes with it. That’s fine, as long as they’re doing it because they choose to do so and not to “punish” women by denying them their companionship. I’d also argue if they’re trying to flee from the pain of the past by MGTOW, they’re doing it for the wrong reasons as well.

    Others, they simply need the “time out” that MGTOW provides. One that allows them to reflect and examine their situation, decide what they really want, set those goals and set out to achieve them. This ultimately can set the foundation for the PUA’s “frame”, where they remain in control of what they want out of life and not permit someone else to hijack it for their own ends. I’m by no means a pick-up artist, and by most metrics I probably wouldn’t even be considered a success with women. But instead of improving myself to attract females, I’m doing it for myself. If women want to come along for the ride, that’s fine. If not, I’m not going to lose sleep over it either, as my focus is on that next step that gets me where I want to go.

  52. I don’t think you are lying or exaggerating about your experiences. But I am curious to know if you can GAME women outside of dance venue you frequent. I understand you are a regular and most people know you there.

    I wrote a FR from last Fri. night about this very thing. The experiences that I referenced in my reply to frank were from a non-dance venue.

    He was just a harmless drunk guy, and the girls were just “playing with him”.

    Even though I’m not drunk, girls may just “play with me”, too. The game is in the nonverbal communication. Mrs. Gamer is a standard girl when it comes to sexuality. I know what it looks like when she is “up for it”. And she “plays with me” sometimes, too. Even then, at some level, she is up for it. So, I know what it looks like when I see it in other girls. And I have a LOT of experience seeing that in Mrs. Gamer. But you have to know how to flip the switches and light girls up. And I know what being lit up looks like in Mrs. Gamer, too, so I can use that experience when I’m out.

    Last Fri. night, when the girl was bumping me, she was just playing. At least overtly and initially. When I started swatting her hard, not facing her (while chatting with friends) and nonverbally telling her to go away, she started to hook because she’s not used to that from guys and her desire for my attention increased. When I didn’t bite on her bait, the switch flipped to alpha, or at least I registered on her alpha-dar as a bigger blip. Then, when I knocked her over with a hard return bump, she got more feelz. Switches flipping. Then I grabbed her waist and pulled her in and told her to kiss me. Major dominance move and compliance test. (I didn’t think about it at the time–it’s how I roll.) I kissed her on the edge of her mouth, but it wasn’t enough to satisfy me, so I moved on. (But the fact that she stayed there as I held her was a strong IOI in itself.)

    The girl who was repeatedly telling me that she loved me and that I needed to stay away from her (when she came over to be with me and hold me) was obviously drunk (lol, I realized this later)…none of her friends were around…my friends were around…she was speaking slowly like drunks do when they’re having trouble talking…she was confused and was trying to tell me that she wanted to fuck and to tell herself to stay away from me…lol, silly drunk girl…she wasn’t “just playing.”

    When a girl gets in my grill and holds me and tells me that the guys she’s with is “just a friend”, she isn’t just playing with me. When an out of towner is squealing continuously as we dance and puts my hands on her tits in the middle of a two-step, she isn’t just playing with me. When a girl puts her hand on my ass late at night when we start to two-step, she isn’t just playing with me. Doesn’t mean she’s DTF–it’s a strong IOI. When a friend swats me, she’s just playing with me, but from other things I know that she’s interested, but not yet DTF. She wants A3 and isolation.

    When a girl goes to my truck and tries to talk me into having sex with her, she’s DTF.

    By the way, have you read my post about IOIs on my blog? Read that and then tell me if you think that I can calibrate IOIs accurately.

  53. People keep referring to the YaReally Archives. Can someone give me a link? I can’t seem to find them in a single collection as people have mentioned.

  54. @Marelius

    I don’t want to link because the blog software seems to be a bit funny about links today. But if you literally google that phrase, it’s like the third hit (the first two are Reddit discussions about the Archive which have more google juice).

    There are also a couple of huge PDF files floating around which contain most of the content from the Archive (but they are not fully up to date with all his posts through to the end of 2016 – it’s only the web archive that is fully up to date)

  55. Person A: “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”
    Person B: “But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge.”
    Person A: “Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”

    No true Scotsman or appeal to purity is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample. Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule (“no true Scotsman would do such a thing”; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group). –Wikipedia

  56. Incubus, I see and dance with girls who have no interest in me beyond dancing (if even that). So, I’m not under the misapprehension that all girls like me. I don’t know too many girls who only want to chat. Usually, if they want to chat, they want a romance. How do I know? Because they are lit up. There are girls who were lit up at one time and won’t even say hello now (and I’ve done nothing overtly to offend them). They gave up because I didn’t show interest and move things along.

  57. Downside is I’m not sure you’d get desire sex in the same way I do with the plates

    Two points: First – I’ve also bedded women from pof, okcupid, and bumble. Non of which were young and tight and non of which gave me anything close to desire sex as my current SB.
    Second – my goal is more a long term relationship rather than banging a different woman every week. I’ve been with the same SB for about 1.5 years down – she was 19 ans now she’s 21. She’ll study (biochem) until 2 AM, come to bed, wake me and fuck me silly. I get bjs in the truck while driving. I fuck her on semi-private beaches and in restaurant/bar parking lots. She’ll grab my junk whenever we’re in touching range. We’ll talk biochem, RP, and myriads of other subjects.

    Compare that with my latest bang from pof – a 42yo that wouldn’t even touch my dick. I think the desire sex is there but not because I pay her expenses. I game her hard and I don’t back down when she gets indignant. That is entirely new to me given by BP history.

    Yes, my SB’ing thing is a buffer and a crutch and not the optimum solution. Internally though I am changing and getting more confident that given the right situation I could cold-approach successfully. I guess I’ve gotten lazy.

    @Culum – yeah I’ve read your FRs but I’m not into the not-paying game. I’ve met up and laid some SBs the same night but I paid for it. I’ve recently updated my SD profile to say I’m not interested in SB or allowances but I’m here strictly for the young girls that prefer older men. But the profile is not active while I’m with my current SB. That day will come though.

  58. @DisgrintledEarthling

    Yes i reckon you can program their heads to get desire sex

    I’ll give it a go!

  59. Then your skill set is good enough. You are using SB’s as a buffer.
    Doesn’t help that I grew up with a large stuttering problem which has mostly disappeared, but the damage has been done.
    That doesn’t matter anymore. Your neuro-plastic brain has rewired. Whoever it was that had a stutter? He’s not around now. You are not him, and he is not you. Banish that ghost!

    Your neuro-plastic brain has rewired
    That process was started a good 20 years ago. I’ve given presentations at Apple HQ to the OS group about what my company was going at low-level loading encrypting processes on macOS. I’ve done things I would have cringed at in my youth. In terms of Power over my destiny I’m way ahead of the ‘normies’.

    Weirdly, that stutter comes back at awkward times (whoever invented the letter ‘s’ ought to be shot). But I get around that somehow, so it’s much less of an issue. The long term effects though of growing up in isolation mean that smalltalk is difficult for me. Making friends is hard. Group social interaction is a mystery. My brain has never developed all those little things it takes to get along with other humans although the desire is there. I wouldn’t call it autism but rather stunted development that isn’t getting the chance to develop.

    Staying 28 years in a crippled ltr hasn’t helped. I should have bailed before the kids came along but I was still BP and scared of being alone. But that’s in the past. My current dread is getting too old before I improve as much as I want. It’s basically a race against time at this point.

  60. Yes i reckon you can program their heads to get desire sex

    At the risk of being creepy, 19yo girls are very, very malleable. They can be receptive to many thing since all is new to them (well, most of them. I stay away from the obvious total sluts). I’ve introduced my current to bondage, toys, semi-public sex. She eats it up. 40yo’s are like: these are my demands…

    And they’re fresh and curious about the world although that varies with the girl.

  61. “They are to be used! Be the user not the used.
    Kind of harsh, don’t you think? If a girl passes your vetting, why not treat her like a vassal? Vassals who behave decently are treated decently.”

    Word modification control = perception control = manipulation

    The question of harshness is up to individual actions and the individual perception of what the word “use” refers to. This provides an opportunity to explain word usage, specifically how word usage is modified to control frame. This example is best related starting with a question. Why does the word “use” or “used” immediately solicit the negative connotation of “harsh”? Is it necessarily harsh to use someone? Is “use” synonymous with “abuse”? If so, then why didn’t I write the word “abuse”?

    We all use each other in various ways. Men use women. Women use men. This is not “kind of harsh” by default, except in the minds of those who have been conditioned to think so in one way or the other.

    The party (or gender) who controls the general perception of word meanings controls the frame of communication and the frame of every thought being communicated. Controlling frame is largely established by controlling just the PRECEPTION of what the majority thinks about a specific phenomena. If you accept another’s control of language in this way then you accept their intended general perceptions of what you communicate and you effectively are controlled by them. Effectively, you let them put their words (or their meaning of the words) in your mouth to make the general perception of what you say suit their purpose.

    So, ask yourself, “Why did I think “use” is “kind of harsh”?

    I wrote what I wrote knowing what I meant. I did not mean anything “kind of harsh” or in any way harsh at all. “Kind of harsh” was already conflated within your mind before I wrote my comment. But I did not program your mind with that conflation. Someone else did. Some other influence did. It was already programmed in your brain waiting for any application of the word “use” to appear in the context concerned.

  62. 19yo girls are very, very malleable. They can be receptive to many thing since all is new to them . . . . I’ve introduced my current to bondage, toys, semi-public sex. She eats it up.

    Heartily co-sign.

  63. Are you in control of yourself if words someone else writes are conflated in your mind with meanings that the writer did not intend… and conflated with meanings Webster’s dictionary does not include.

    Who or what is in control of what you think?

    You see, the modification of word meanings, just by subtle indirect conflation is used by manipulators, frame thieves really, in order to subvert established language and communication to usurp power. Don’t fooled by this phenomena. It’s the oldest and most commonly employed strategy. You can be its’ victim or you can ignore it or you can apply it yourself to exercise your power.

  64. Oh, just thought I’d mentioned I had a vasectomy yesterday. Cool procedure. Lightweight. On vacation until next week but I got bored today so went out to shoot pool for a couple of hours.
    I know some consider getting sniped a relinquishment of manhood, but I’ve had too many false alarms recently. And I do like it raw.

  65. I took a look on the seeking arrangements site today.. It looks like an attractive RP man could clean up well there without having to spare any ‘sugar’ lol…
    The SMV is on clear display too.. Anyone who thinks these girls don’t understand that at least on a hind-brain level are kidding themselves..

  66. Regarding the sb/sd dynamic for me it’s desire sex or nothing, after experiencing genuine desire sex on a regular basis I don’t see how anything less would be acceptable.

    Seeing my girls genuine desire to fuck me is a turn on feed back loop for me, I doubt I could stay hard and “perform “ without it st my age ( 50) that’s part of why staying in good physical shape is so important to me.

    If I continue to look after myself I don’t see why I won’t still be able to fuck still attractive 40 somethings well into my 60’s I’m thinking by the time I can’t my dick probably won’t work anyways so paying sugar babies isn’t on my agenda.

    If I found myself in need of going down that road I think watching porn and sorting myself out would be preferable to paying a sb to pretend to want to fuck me.

  67. The majority of MGTOW are undesirable men to begin with. Their self-sorting out of the pool is exactly what women–feminist or otherwise–want them to do. They will have absolutely zero impact on the social fabric ultimately. Now if feminists manage to continue to accrue power toward the end of making it illegal for Alphas to turn down women they’re not attracted to (which they ultimately will be forced to do to achieve their apparent goal state), you might see some serious shit.

    Put another way: the current “soft control” of men only legally and socially excludes undesirable men from the SMP via #metoo and the like. The eventual “hard control” of directly forcing desirable men to engage with women they have no interest in will be… interesting. I’m just curious what form it will take and if feminists and the SocJus crowd can cling to their power long enough to bring that control about in the face of a growing backlash from the general public.

  68. @Culum & Anonymous

    I reckon I can get the sugar baby thing going without paying using the successful older man mentor thing but I’ve been distracted with my business recently plus I had a few weeks away sailing.

    The boys here who are critical about paying for it need to get a couple of divorces under their belt and divide back the settlement to get a cost per lay.

    That should wake them up.

    Mine after my first marriage 22 years ago was about £800. Haven’t done the math on the second one as I don’t feel like confronting it.

  69. @Sun Wukong

    ‘The eventual “hard control” of directly forcing desirable men to engage with women they have no interest in will be… interesting’

    Well you just wouldn’t get the boner. You’d need chemical intervention. It would just be rape. But of course that would be fine this way round.

    With all that said I do actually see it happening. But firstly via societal shaming which is already happening and only later by legislation.

    For some time the girl that did my hair quizzed me on my dating / sex life and was completely any utterly astonished if I ever said I didn’t fancy a woman (often). In her mind this was unthinkable. She hadn’t actually rationalised it but in her mind she was completely entitled to any man she wanted. The man had no say in it really.

  70. @OBIT and disgruntled earthling

    Thanks. This has been tough but I’m getting great advice from former colleagues many of who are ready to work with me…two weeks ago I was depressed. Now I’ve got a number of prospects demanding My schedule and availabilities.

    I found out some unsavoury things about some of my colleagues that were not obvious.

    A lot of this re enforces my reframe. Yes you have to believe it for it to be authentic to those you’re trying to influence.

  71. NOTE: I am not critical of paying for sugar babies. I’m only saying it’s not right *for me* because I don’t enjoy it. The reason I don’t enjoy it isn’t because I’m paying (after all, I’m paying for drinks etc anyway, it’s only a question of degree to pay more), it’s because in my experience it makes it *much* harder to

    a) get desire sex

    b) accurately read the girl and understand her motivations and subcomms (ie, you’re always wondering if she’s doing something because she wants to or because she hopes to get cash out of you)

    Since I’m in this for desire sex and to improve my social skills and skills with women, it doesn’t suit me. It has *nothing* to do with the cost of getting laid and whether it is expensive or cheap in different contexts.

    But I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with it. In fact, it’s perfectly possible to get desire sex from someone you’re paying (it’s just harder, and the more you pay, the harder it is).

  72. “The majority of MGTOW are undesirable men to begin with.”

    True, in the absence of “Enforced Monogamy” (as defined by JBP) there will always be 80% of men that will be considered “undesirable”. Sure, there will be men who will move in and out of the 80/20 depending on the self improvement and effort they put in, but 80% will always be “undesirable”. That is how Hypergamy works.

  73. Sun wukong
    Great to read you again. I don’t think you can really control the 20%. They find a way to make life work for them. To Live and know that Desired Sex is something they have available to them. I’m noticing exceptions to everything as i go out and observe. In a more hopeful manor i think anyone in the 80 percent can more into the 20% with effort and Growth. But you have to have a serious red pill motivated reason to do so. Otherwise It falls apart in confronted with reality in the culture and climate we live with.

  74. 80%.

    Damn, that’s so harsh that I have to question the idea. 80% is the overwhelming bulk of men. The majority of American culture has a lot of oddly regimented and stubborn peculiarities, but does it really render 80% of men across the spectrum as the ” bottom ” wrt sexual dynamics?

  75. @NBTM

    Word modification control = perception control = manipulation

    This equation is what put JBP in the spotlight during his protests of the gender pronoun debacle of 2016 in Ontario. He refuses to comply with a law that is intentionally designed to assert word modification control with a specific end goal in mind. Even though he is clearly BP, he knows that the FI/Post Modernists are behind this and therefore JBP and TRP/TRM share a common enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

  76. @Blax

    I too question the viability of the assumption that 80% of men are excluded from the SMP. I think that a lot of statistics get mixed up and that number is the result.

    For example, the study that concluded through genetic research that

    “…4,000 to 8,000 years after humanity invented agriculture,…for every 17 women who were reproducing…only one man did the same…
    In more recent history, as a global average, about four or five women reproduced for every one man.”

    So the more recent stats for reproduction are 4:1 or 5:1 female to male ratios, or 20-25% of the men are getting 100% of the women pregnant.

    In the past, prior to widespread birth control, this was an accurate measure of who was having sex. In the last 50 years things have changed so dramatically due to modern birth control methods and active efforts of the FI to shift social norms that we can no longer rely on the genetic trend as an indicator for who has sexual access to women in the SMP.

    Even though its probably still true that 20-25% of the men have the genes that all women prefer, it does not necessarily follow that the remaining 75-80% of men have no access to sex with those women, since we know, thanks to Rollo, there are multiple reasons why a woman would engage with a man for sex.

  77. “80%.

    Damn, that’s so harsh that I have to question the idea. 80% is the overwhelming bulk of men. The majority of American culture has a lot of oddly regimented and stubborn peculiarities, but does it really render 80% of men across the spectrum as the ” bottom ” wrt sexual dynamics?”

    There is obviously a Bell Curve Distribution there. Change it to: the bottom 80% are less desirable than the top 20%. The bottom 20% of the 100% are certainly going to have less SMV merit than the rest. The guy at 79% is not as fucked as the guy at 19%.

    The important thing for young men in their 20’s to recognize is that they want a purpose and mission defined by them and executed over the decades to not be in a low hierarchical position later on.

    So maybe that is self-evident and goes without saying. A guy can’t sit around and always blame external factors for where he finds himself later on. And an awakened Red Pill older man can’t sit around and blame external factors for his own Relationship Game/ LTR/marriage (rather, shit or get off the pot–make a decision, or decisions)

    Some things shouldn’t be OverThought.

  78. Marelius

    Yup. That’s why I emphasized culture as a possible cohort/culprit. I read certain widely accepted memes, but they don’t line up with what I observe no matter where I go.

    I currently know or deal with about 50+/- men on a consistent basis over many years, and out of that number there are only 1 or 2 outliers that seem incapable of relating to women sexually.

    I’m trying to figure out why it is in the sphere the odds appear to be so heavily skewed against the man, and ” the culture ” aspect ( at least in the sphere) seems to have dictates and mandates that cause men to hamstring themselves by ” not setting “, which I read as pedestalizing particular women as ” top shelf “. But who determines this? I shudder every time I read an account of a man suffering because he feels he cannot succeed within the narrowly defined parameters set by other men.

    So I remain mindful of where I am getting this information.

    It’s all fun and games until somebody has a dry dick for an extended period of time because they don’t grasp that they are operating in someone else’s frame.

    So for my part, ” nay ” on the bottom 80% thing.

  79. Sjf

    Think about all of the men you know who have ” mates ” ( that aren’t whales of hb5’s ):over decades.

    What is it that would render a bulk of men ” less attractive “?

    *sniff* I smell piping hot buffers.

  80. A lot of men get to breed and have sex, but it does not mean that women find them desirable, or that such men as receiving “desire sex” from their women.

    We are not talking about which men get to breed, we are talking about which men women find desirable, or rather “undesirable”.

Leave a Reply