The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

5 1 vote
Article Rating

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

Speak your mind

1.1K Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Roused
Roused
4 years ago

Kid Jupiter wrote: “It just seems like a waste of time to get into nonstop shit-throwing and defending of myself, which I’m fully capable of, but which isn’t really helping me move my own ball.” SJF WROTE: Right. TRM is about a bottoms up approach. It’s not about top down saving culture or society from itself. And that is where the admonition to acknowledge how things are, rather than how they ought to be. That. IT IS A BOTTOMS UP APPROACH, WON’T WORK ANY OTHER WAY. Hey man, I am being sincere now because you’ve stuck with this like a… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid doesn’t eat cookies.
Maybe the time has come today when he should?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

asdgamer
I’d pick people who have hiked the Appalachian Trail,

Do you know any of those people already, as in “right now”? I sure would like to.

Roused
Roused
4 years ago

And yeah, I sometimes get all touchy-feely (no homo) after a day working outside followed by a glass of bourbon and a nice cigar. Nice to reflect on what a great fucking space this is.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

I haven’t done End to End. I’m thinking of doing it for my 70th, and in memoriam of a guy who I once met on the Vermont section who was doing the same. We were only in company for a couple of days, because I was actually doing the Long Trail at the time, but he made an impression on me.

And it fits neatly in between my long term cycling goals.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

People who hiked the App Trail?

Lesbians?

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

On pork chops… 2 hours is sufficient, else you are cooking it in brine.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“People who hiked the App Trail? Lesbians?”

I suppose which ever opportunity presents itself.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
4 years ago

Hmmm. I wouldn’t be so sure that the collapse is coming anytime soon. Societies tend to be more resilient than people who are dissatisfied with them generally think, and our society is quite affluent, militarily powerful, technologically advanced and generally has enough bread and circuses to keep most of the would-be destroyers at bay for quite some time. No future predictions are certain, of course, but banking on a near or even medium term collapse is not necessarily a good bet. In any case, the “honorable” approach advocated by KJ here would not be much of an improvement over the… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

It’s always great to see ya Novaseeker.

Great stuff.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ Kid

On not understanding kfg, lol.

After reading every comment from kfg over the years, my advice to you would be to turn off your ” active brain ” to grasp his points. I’ve yet to see anyone here, or IRL, who says so much while typing so little.

But your brain can get in the way of understanding. That’s true with lots of stuff. Hell, many eastern religion/philosophies are built on that very concept.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

” . . . they are not going to get rolled back.” The only direction there has ever been is forward. Going back to some Golden Age (which probably never even actually existed) is just another form of Utopianism. Even if you tear down what you have you still have to start from where you are and move on. Knowing where you are helps. Just a bit. I think it’s worth noting that most Appalachian Trail through hikers these days don’t necessarily know a lot about survival. Their chief concern is making time. If they aren’t constrained by social obligations,… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Roused, I’m not going to slam you after a post like that. Very good post, I appreciate it. I don’t like what Goldmund did. I think it was terrible. I’m not sure why I have such a visceral reaction to it; something like that has never happened to me before, so it’s not an experience-based negative reaction. It just seems objectively wrong to me that he’d do what he did, drunk or not. I’m not even going to get into the chick’s end of it; I don’t expect dogs to meow and cats to bark, why would I expect a… Read more »

theasdgamer
4 years ago

I met people who have hiked the App Trail in a meetup group.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

“It’s always great to see ya Novaseeker. Great stuff.” I agree, Which is what are you going to do about it? Like the Original Post? Are you going to go on about it with 500 or a 1000 comments in debate? Are you going to be in the bargaining phase of Grief? If every one were just to behave properly my Kid Jupiter work would be done. Are you going to get through Red Pill triage? Are you going to be happy with Red Pill Awareness? Does Kid Jupiter have a millstone around his neck or the freedom and the… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

SJF, Not tired, not swimming against any RP Brand. I don’t believe being RP and abhorring what Goldmund did in that situation are mutually exclusive. You are talking some very Left-Hand Path shit here. The Left-Hand Path may be the way to “untold earthly power and hedonic pleasure,” but be careful; you’d better really, REALLY know what you’re fucking with if you think you can sustain a “bottom-up” approach to life forever, without some guidance from “The Up,” which has an overview of things, like a helicopter observing traffic down below. You are sorely mistaken if you think you can… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

” Look up Jupiter/Zeus . . .”

Dyeus in the old religion. The sky god, so naturally also the god thunder and lighting. Also the father of the gods, so at some point Phater was often added to it.

God (of the sky) the Father. Deus pater.

You’d almost think they were all talking about the same damn thing.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ Kid My last comment tonight, as I gotta bang and get my beauty sleep. Growing up I was part of a fairly huge social circle. I can’t even count in hindsight. Around 7 or 8 guys I grew up with joined the military fresh out of high school. 3 of these guys, count ’em, THREE, were deemed ‘ special ‘. Once I actually was able to grasp what that meant, I was more proud of them than they were of themselves, lol. I’d ride the bus from Jersey to Bragg and Benning to be around them when they had… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid Jupiter I don’t like what Goldmund did. I think it was terrible. I’m not sure why I have such a visceral reaction to it; something like that has never happened to me before, so it’s not an experience-based negative reaction. You might try figuring out why you had and have that emotional reaction. Nobody else here knows for sure, it’s inside your head. You’re outraged by it, and then outraged that none of the other men here share your outrage. It’s all emotion, all the time. Plus “what if all men acted like Goldmund” is a logical fallacy that… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Blax, “It’s easy to point a finger at a man and attempt to misguidedly ridicule ‘ bluster and bravado ‘ without the understanding that the man is a proven commodity. He has something most guys don’t have, or will never bother to find out if they have, because the test is too hard, too dangerous or fucking deadly.” That’s great. I don’t begrudge Ton his special skill and experience. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is, indeed, an elite soldier. I’ll suspend any disbelief and take his and your word for it, even though many of… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Anon Reader, “Kid, be as outraged about Goldmund as you want, but it would be a good idea if you were to stop demanding that all the rest of us join you in ritual outrage.” I didn’t demand the rest of you join me in “ritual outrage,” whatever the fuck that is. It’s not “ritual outrage,” it’s actual outrage. I was responding to Roused’s query of me, and I stated that it bothers me that most of you guys think what Goldmund did is OK, and I detailed why I don’t think it’s OK and what I believe are the… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
4 years ago

@Kid Jupiter

“but I really don’t see a problem with my have the decency to find Goldmund’s actions objectionable.”

You can find it objectionable. But WOMEN don’t. To women the woman did no wrong since the stupid fuck was just her plane ticket.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Yollo, I don’t really care what WOMEN think. As I’ve said, WOMEN don’t have the capacity to judge right from wrong, control themselves, and set boundaries for themselves; they need an outside force restraining and keeping in check their destructive impulses. Men knew this for 1000s of years. It’s only in the last 100 years in Western society that they’ve been programmed to forget and the social contract changed to allow women unrestrained expression of their destructive impulses. This is why I focus mostly on Goldmund’s agency in the situation, not the chick’s. I wouldn’t expect her to act any… Read more »

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
4 years ago

Kid Jupiter touches on an interesting topic that relates to Rollo’s assertion concerning the ‘old set’ of books. In Baumeister’s controversial work ‘Cultural Suppression of Female Sexuality’ he proposed the ‘female sexual control theory’ concerning female sexuality. He basically proposed that females on the aggregate use sex as a resource and control its supply intrasexually for maximum resource extraction. http://www.austin-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Cultural-Suppression-of-Female-Sexuality.pdf This supply limit (sexual prudence, chastity, virginity etc.) required maximum resources and marriage from men to be accessed, beta Bucks, old set of books. Problem now is that females want to engage in their sexuality freely (unlimited supply) with alphas… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Johnny, I’m not operating from any set of books near to what the Aussie guy in the story is operating from. I would never be caught dead in a situation like that – I was woke to that dynamic long before I found RM and the RP. My parents, especially my mother – believe it or not – clued me in to women’s ways when I was much younger. Thank Jove, because the divorce-related carnage I’ve witnessed among my friends and family is mind-boggling. (I’ve never been married.) You’re 100% correct about plate spinning, but spinning multiple plates effectively and… Read more »

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
4 years ago

I understand where your coming from Jupiter, it’s the same paradigm every man is facing nowadays.

I know a woman who’s had a friends with benefits for two years and is only using him for sex while she searches for a ‘real relationship’. Like, what the fuck?

I simply can’t reconcile paying for something someone got for free, it’s a suckers bet. I’m fine with friend with benefits but no way will I commit my resources beyond that.

SFC Ton
4 years ago

The collaspe is in full effect for working class/ blue collar America, rural or inner city. Both political parties are overtly hostile to both groups, though the dems are more overt about it. We haven’t not seem the full impact of a lot of things and automation is only going to make shit worse. The fan boy mad max wet dream collapse is unlikely for most Americans but will occur in some locations. I have spent my working life in one failed nation state or another and things are always worse when various ethnic groups reside side by side. The… Read more »

Trent Lane
Trent Lane
4 years ago

Actually, if you accept this for achievable truth „Novaseeker: “The option open to men is to adapt to the new reality, which is what we are about doing here at this blog.” and combine it with this „Rollo: What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?“ an interesting question is, are there ethical responsibilities which can be generalized and forwarded to men with the purpose of giving value to all people involved in Goldmunds example: the girl, the beta, yourself. And if yes, why bother? And actually there are. It‘s advanced stuff and (almost goes… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

Lol, no I don’t

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

Putin that is….

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
4 years ago

Rollo already talked about how it isn’t our responsibility to give women better Betas.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

Re: having ( nice ) things signaling provider, I disagree because ” provider ‘ is something that’s telegraphed through word and action. The ‘ money and stuff ‘ thing trips up many men. Wrt women and sex, some men see it as the path of least resistance. ‘ once I get the money/clothes/car, I’ll get girls ‘ is a mindset most chicks can smell on you. Most will treat you accordingly. Aussie boy is a good example. He had enough resources to buy an extra plane ticket and, I assume, get lodging for a chick. From G’s account, he just… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Blax, “Re: having ( nice ) things signaling provider, I disagree because ” provider ‘ is something that’s telegraphed through word and action.” I don’t believe that this is realistic. It’s correct in theory, but not in practice – I see it all around me and experience it, as well. When you drive a nice car, wear nice clothing, go to nice restaurants, what it telegraphs is that you can afford such things, and what that translates to in women’s minds is “he can provide.” We’re not talking about rocket scientists here – they don’t do complex math calculations, they… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“A basement full of bandaides,beans and bullets, while not useless, ain’t the most effect things a man could be doing.” Skills. The stuff ain’t worth shit without them and you’re probably going to lose most of the stuff anyway. The stuff is your grub”stake,” your Starter Kit to improve your longer term odds, not what you’re going to live on forever. You’re going to have to live off the environment, whatever that happens to be, and you won’t know what that is until you get there. Same as it ever was. I walk through an REI thinking, “You know, you… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

kfg, “They’re animals, anyway. Let them lose their souls.” – Sollozzo in “The Godfather” Apparently, that’s a big concept for Sicilians – being a human vs. being an animal. I used to hear it all the time coming from my older relatives when I was growing up: “They act like animals!’; “They treated us like animals!”; “It was like a zoo!”; “We’re not animals!” – stuff along those lines. Maybe it’s because to people like kfg and (apparently) Vox Day, we are animals and we have to prove otherwise? I don’t know for sure, it’s something worth pondering. But, my… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

“; I started giving the ‘provider vibe’ as I got my professional credentials and started working and taking responsibility.” No misconceptions to clear up KJ… You describe the betaization process you went through, which is built upon your Golden Rule substructure… And all this blathering is just rationalizing what you feel, what every Beta feels losing to an Alpha. Jealousy… And I’ve spent time with only a mattress furnishing a one bedroom apartment at one end and BH and Out East and other big money enclaves… Where merely being there signals wealth, let alone what you have on or how… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
4 years ago
Reply to  Sentient

Dalrock
http://wp.me/sXWyH-suckers

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Oh and you aren’t a special southern Italian snowflake cheech… I am a quarter Sicilian. And a quarter Neapolitan myself…

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

https://youtu.be/gGdGFtwCNBE

Kid Justice – outro…

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“I used to hear it all the time coming from my older relatives when I was growing up . . .” So, empirical observation is racism, which is bad, but if it’s culturally ingrained racism, it’s just an expression and just peachy. Got it. Q: What is an animal? A: Something that has no soul, so is exempt from being treated as if it has one. An interesting bit about how the Inquisition played out in the New World: Protestants had little compunction about killing Natives, because they had no souls, they were just animals and could be treated as… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Sentient, “No misconceptions to clear up KJ… You describe the betaization process you went through, which is built upon your Golden Rule substructure…” It’s called “growing up.” As I wrote in one of my late-night dissertations last night, men need to be able to cooperate with one another in groups. Part of that process is respecting boundaries. If you carry yourself constantly with an “Alpha” bearing, you may be able to slay the ladies, but you’re going to have a hard time gaining and keeping the cooperation of other men. And it’s men’s cooperation you’ll need if you want to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

“Respect is a two-way street.”

No it’s not. I wise man I worked with on a construction site told me “a man respects you once you’ve broken his nose”… Now has was just out of prison and looking to put his life back on track again… But no doubt he would not hesitate to earn some bloke’s respect again at the expense of some scraped knuckles…

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Sigmas are Alphas who are loners…

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

kfg, “I’m not attacking you. I’m holding up a mirror to your attack. So maybe, if you can learn to distinguish reflections from reality, you can start to get a clue about what the words you type actually mean in the world outside of your head.” We have very different writing and thinking styles. You’re very left-brained and literal, I’m more right-brained and figurative. I like to focus on the style, the impact and effect of the words I use. I like using funny words and descriptors. I like to paint with broad strokes. You’re more concerned with the words’… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

“If you carry yourself constantly with an “Alpha” bearing, you may be able to slay the ladies, but you’re going to have a hard time gaining and keeping the cooperation of other men. ”

Dissertation on Genghis Khan incoming in 3. 2. 1…

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Senient,

An Alpha is a leader. Lesser men will follow an Alpha if he’s smart and displays that he cares about them and has their best interests in mind. A Sigma leads no one, is a lone wolf. Not an alpha – no men will follow him.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Kid… You’re not great at arguing either…

Real estate closings?

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

A sigma follows his own lead…

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

So, to clarify my earlier point, if you carry yourself with an “Alpha” bearing that’s selfish and doesn’t seem to benefit the other lesser men, then no cooperation, that’s what will give you a hard time gaining cooperation.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Sentient, I’m great at arguing verbally. I’m great at making a case, when I can get up and speak, without being interrupted constantly and without being jabbed with little, pedantic barbs from guys like you and kfg. That’s called debate: I get up and speak, then you get up and speak. What do you do? You really haven’t put yourself out there at all, you just sit back and slice at me. How about making some assertions, taking some risks? All I’ve done is take risks here, saying stuff. All you’ve done is sit back and attack me. How about… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Making assertions is the problem… That’s not debating. And I’m still wating for you to answer the question posed to you way way at the top o’ this thread…

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Sentient,

Making assertions is a problem? How so? I think it’s perfectly fine to make assertions. If someone like me didn’t display masculine risk-taking here and make some assertions, guys like you and kfg would have nothing to do but go around in little mental circles and grind the existing sand in your heads ever finer, until there’s nothing left.

What was your question? I’m writing on the fly here, not going to have the time to really get into it today

theasdgamer
4 years ago

If you want to help other guys, be the guy that other guys will emulate rather than merely envy. Don’t do it for women, but because it’s an important mission.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

“Thus, an interesting ‘game’ concept if you have means is ‘How do I pretend that I don’t?'” Well if you want an exemplar, here’s one: http://www.returnofkings.com/66782/how-to-deal-with-people-who-hate-on-your-lifestyle (read the whole essay) It’s not about winning anymore with women—you can’t win. At this stage, it’s all about not losing. There are a thousand ways to lose, but there’s only one way to not lose: become an unapologetic asshole (if you’re not one already). This is not some seduction strategy or game advice—it’s a life requirement. It’s a survival tactic that will help you succeed during these turbulent times. I’m not suggesting you… Read more »

theasdgamer
4 years ago

@KJ

An Alpha is a leader.

There are different definitions of “alpha.” Some alphas don’t put effort into leading men.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@KJ: “You’re very left-brained and literal . . .” And yet just up there a bit Blaximus tells you, based on his long term observation, that exactly the opposite is true. Huh. ” I’m more right-brained and figurative.” And that’s what we’ve been telling you all along, and you have been adamantly denying. Huh. One could almost be led to the conclusion that your compass card has gotten turned 180 degrees in its housing (not literally, figuratively) and you need to look at it in a mirror to see it the right way ’round. “To bring up the “I Jewed… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“I get up and speak, then you get up and speak.”

Whereas here on an internet forum all the words just come out in a jumble all on top of one another.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmO-ziHU_D8

Assertion != debate… also you can’t claim unique – and temporal – definitions…

“masculine risk-taking ” – is what Goldmund did… you are posting on a an anonomys message board.

“guys like you and kfg would have nothing to do but go around in little mental circles and grind the existing sand in your heads ever finer, until there’s nothing left.”

This is the guy calling for no ad hominems?

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

” . . . grind the existing sand in your heads ever finer, until there’s nothing left.””

Hey, that’s Zen Buddhism!

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

ASD,

And those Alphas who don’t put effort into leading men don’t gain the cooperation of other men in any endeavors that require such.

Trent Lane
Trent Lane
4 years ago

Yollo Comanche: „Rollo already talked about how it isn’t our responsibility to give women better Betas.“ This goes without saying, too. The very notion is absurd if you operate/think from a Red Pill paradigm. This would do nothing for the other guy at all. Ethic responsibilities in a red pill paradigm for those who are not in it is an interesting concept. If we all accept Red Pill principles like Hypergamy, AF/BB and so on as truth (which most of us do, since we‘re here) and as you advance in Game you see, know and can do more with social… Read more »

theasdgamer
4 years ago

@KJ When you drive a nice car, wear nice clothing, go to nice restaurants, “women will pigeonhole you as BB. I drive a shitty truck, wear used, shitty threads, eat fast food, but I come from Old Money ™ and there’s no escaping my nonverbal communication of entitlement. Externals can’t overcome internals. The way a beta’s mind works, if you have the externals, the internals show up. I honestly feel entitled to girls’ attention and their bodies if I want. And girls read that entitlement, of course. Even when they’re a whole lot younger than I am. Girls ping off… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid Jupiter:
“I have no idea who the Yamato are.”

There is a site where you can learn many things. It is called “Google”. Some people use it to look up words they do not know. Try it sometime.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=yamato

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

Man, I haven’t heard ” testa dura ” in ages…..

All alphas are not leaders of other men. Kid, it appears that you attribute mostly positives to ‘ alpha ‘, but alphas are still human and are subject to the same positives and negatives as anyone else. The difference is that usually they approach issues with the intent to always have things go in their favor

Alphas can do this while doing charity work, or burning down a village.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

Someone sure is getting his mettle tested in a group while moving around portable goalposts… KFG once said in relation to Jack Donovan’s The Way of Men: “The way of women is the hive. All women belong to the hive simply by virtue of being women. The way of men is the trade society and a few good buddies he will put his life on the line for. Men are not alone when they don’t have a woman. Men are alone when they don’t have a right hand man, a fireteam and a secret society defined by trade. Belonging to… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid Jupiter to ASD
And those Alphas who don’t put effort into leading men don’t gain the cooperation of other men in any endeavors that require such.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they don’t care. Not everyone is like you, understand that yet?

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Blax

My best buddies dad walked around muttering “testa da minchia” all the time… sometimes abbreviated to “da minchia” and a shake of the head… as way to deal with the weariness of the world which confronted and confounded him daily…

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

” . . . there’s no escaping my nonverbal communication of entitlement.”

I’ve mentioned a few times before that the principle thing I’ve gotten out of PUA blogs/Red Pill is how to make myself less attractive and noticeable. It’s an effort. Grey Man does not come naturally to me.

And it ain’t because I’m classically good looking or Huuuuuge:

comment image

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

@kfg
“Walk through the REI…”

Americans love to substitute gadgetry for skills. We wind up with some cool gadgets that way, and a lot of nearly useless objects. Speaking as an REI member, mind you.

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

… A man can cooperate with you voluntarily, or you can beat cooperation out of him or kill him.

Everything else is artifice. Artifice is not necessarily bad, but it doesn’t change the underlying facts.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

kfg, “Whereas here on an internet forum all the words just come out in a jumble all on top of one another.” Here on an internet forum, I post something, then I have you, Sentient, SJF, etc. attacking me, while generally making no comments of an assertive nature. At this point, I can probably assert something like, “Grass is green,” and have you guys attack me with, “No, grass isn’t necessarily green. Sometimes it’s blue, as in Kentucky Bluegrass. Sometimes it’s brown, if you don’t water it.” That’s how far gone you guys are, you can’t see the forest from… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Anon Reader,

Just saw this post of yours:

“Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they don’t care. Not everyone is like you, understand that yet?”

You would’ve been better to just stop at, “Maybe they don’t care,” and left out the baseless attack on me, that I want or expect everyone to be like me.

Got it, brother?

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Blax,

Real quick:

“… A man can cooperate with you voluntarily, or you can beat cooperation out of him or kill him.”

In a civilized society (which we still live in, I think…), the last two options really aren’t viable, so, realistically, you must obtain voluntary cooperation out of other men.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

” The difference is that usually they approach issues with the intent to always have things go in their favor” Bingo… Time to upgrade from the Golden Rule, Kid, to the Platinum Rule [do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it]… but I suspect you have a very painful 10 years or so coming before you are ready for that… Ponder the Story of the Entrepreneur. The Entrepreneur meets with an eager young associate… He takes him to a mountan top and points to a large home… “you see that mansion there… you see that seven… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid
You would’ve been better to just stop at, “Maybe they don’t care,” and left out the baseless attack on me, that I want or expect everyone to be like me.

It’s a recurring theme in your emotionalism. No mirrors in your house? Or just never look at them?

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

Force is always and option.

Artifice and all that

Technically, grass is not green. The effects of light reflection from chlorophyll makes grass appear green. That’s why in winter or lawn death, grass doesn’t have that lush green appearance.

… But you didn’t hear that from me.😀

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Here we go… Enter the Yareally Gambit You guys are like the two old guys in the balcony…

Kid you are 4 years younger than me, for the record. And before you get to it, I do not live isolated on a farm… I live in a largish city… been all over… have five kids and a hot wife of over 25 years… So you will need to dig deeper for the made up slights…

But please go on about how everyone is attacking you… Comedy Gold!

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Anon Reader,

You ever look in the mirror yourself?

Emotions are good, when directed. They’re natural, not going anywhere. We all have them. I like to express mine.

What’s wrong with it? Should I strive to be Mr. Spock or LCDR Data on Star Trek, instead? What’s your ideal that I’m not living up to?

Blaximus
Blaximus
4 years ago

@ Sentient

I never thought the day would come when I’d miss being called a hard head.

Never been called a dickhead though, lol, but I’d hear men talking and laugh when I heard the phrase.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Blax,

Sentient looks like a citrole after his last comment.

Somehow, the Sicilians managed to make “cucumber” an insult.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid Emotions are good, when directed. They’re natural, not going anywhere. We all have them. I like to express mine. Aaaand KJ runs down another rabbit trail. Kid, your emotional incontinence isn’t the issue, rather it’s the ongoing sub-text. From the start you’ve been emotionally flailing around because the rest of us don’t agree with you, aren’t like you, etc. Did you figure out why Goldmund’s lighting-fast pickup triggers your emotional reaction yet? That would be some good self-knowledge to have. Do you understand why you are so outraged that the rest of us aren’t as outraged? That would be… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“Zen . . . Let’s just say was doing more in Seattle in the mid-to-late 90s than playing bass.” I haven’t taught it at Harvard since about 1990. I wanted to title it “I don’t know shit (but then neither do you),” but got overruled by committee. D.T. Suzuki drives me nuts with his going on, and on, and on about how you can’t go on and on about Zen. He never could break away from the academic analytic approach to a subject which is neither academic nor analytical. I found it rather easy to break away from Harvard. Never… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Rollo to Kid Jupiter
So either he’s a lot more versatile than you think, or women all over the country are more predictable in their sexual selection protocol than you think.

KJ likely is a Quality Woman sort of man. Maybe that’s why Goldmund’s pickup triggers him emotionally.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

@kfg

What is the sound of one tenured hand clapping?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Business opportunity here. Merge it with Crossfit and franchise?

http://nypost.com/2017/06/03/this-intensive-boot-camp-is-designed-to-revive-a-mans-primal-nature/

The meta is that this even exists with such a price tag.

Lost Patrol
Lost Patrol
4 years ago

Alphas can do this while doing charity work, or burning down a village.

And on the same day. Good one.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@KJ: “In a civilized society (which we still live in, I think…), the last two options really aren’t viable . . .”

You must have had a rather narrow exposure to civilization, and gone through that wearing blinders.

You’re projecting “ought” while ignoring “is,” again. Go figure.

@AR: “What is the sound of one tenured hand clapping?”

Hah! No. Wait. Shit!

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Kid keeps claiming no one is debating fairly with him… yet when questions he does not wish to answer are posed, he snarkily ignores them, while further claiming unfair tactics are being used against him. Here you go Kid, for the second time Sentient June 2, 2017 at 10:40 am “Kid I’ll try once more to reason with you, you ain’t making it easy and are now in gamma meltdown territory. So assuming arguendo Aussie left her… and she suffer Teh Consequences(TM) as you describe. So what? WHY is it relevant to him? Suggest you ponder this a bit before… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Rollo, Nice try regarding Goldmund, but his cross-country drive are also in his wheelhouse because of the anonymity aspect. He can hit and run, he’s not sitting in one smaller-scale place. My assertion is that if he was ‘stuck’ in one place with smaller scale and no anonymity, accountability to smaller-scale groups for his behavior, his current game model wouldn’t work, and might actually be dangerous for him. I’ve read our Alpha post before. You state yourself that it’s a hard concept to define, it’s a mindset, etc. I think it’s best not to clog up the channels with it… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Almost forgot Kid’s snappy rejoinder… this is a guy who self proclaim she is great at verbal argument mind you…

Kid Jupiter
June 2, 2017 at 11:30 am
Sentient, I’ll no longer be replying substantively to you or ASD anymore. Keep ranting all you want, if it makes you feel good.

Grow up, guys.

So… killer debating is describing a question you don’t wish to answer as a rant and ploughing on making assertions…

Seems about right.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Here you go Kid, for the second time

I was wrong… my bad. Here you go for the third time….

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

Sentient,

Wow, you must have a lot of time on your hands to go back and mine through 850 past comments to cite one I made early in the thread. There have been a lot of developments since then in the discussion, it’s gone into completely different directions.

But, thanks for reminding me that I was supposed to be ignoring you. Let me get back to that. Maybe you’ll come up with something substantive and constructive to post. Or maybe you’ll continue being a cafone. We’ll see.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid to Rollo My assertion is that if he was ‘stuck’ in one place with smaller scale and no anonymity, accountability to smaller-scale groups for his behavior, his current game model wouldn’t work, and might actually be dangerous for him. So what? That’s not going to happen, so what difference does it make? If Goldmund was transported to the Moon with a few hours of oxygen his social skills would be useless…but so what? KJ You’re really starting to bore me. I’ve been quite clear that it’s not the “lightning fast pickup” that triggers me, it’s the context in which… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me up when Anon Reader is done. I’ve already discussed these issues regarding the Goldmund thing. Maybe Sentient can digest the transcript for him – he’s good at that.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

KJ: “My assertion is that if he was ‘stuck’ in one place . . .”

Yes. If all the parameters of the interaction were changed, then everything would have been different.

We get it.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Kid

From a guy who is great at arguing and swears he is swaying the unseen crowd [though that conceit is a whoooole other topic], not impressive but par for this course… I thought real estate closings, now I’m thinking run of the mill wills.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
4 years ago

YES!! Kfg gets something I said! I’m truly ecstatic. I may even get drunk on a schoolnight tonight in celebration!! Ha

Ok, kids in Powdunk, Middle America: don’t try Goldmund’s “pickup a chick and fuck her in the bathroom in front of the guy who brought her to the dinner party” in your small hometown! That only works without social (and maybe physical) consequences in the anonymous, large-scale big city or when you have the luxury of blowing out of town quickly on your cross country trip, like Trust Fund Goldmund.

It rhymes.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
4 years ago

Kid, why does Goldmund’s pickup trigger you? Why are you afraid to find out?
and why do these qustions bother you?

Of course Goldmund could only exist and run his Game in modern times. No way any man could have done that 200 or more years ago when society was simpler. Right?

https://infogalactic.com/info/Giacomo_Casanova

Right.

Sentient
thought real estate closings, now I’m thinking run of the mill wills.

Looking that way.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“Ok, kids in Powdunk, Middle America . . .”

It’s spelled “Podunk,” and I’m not in it, but it’s within bicycle day trip distance from here. Not figuratively, literally.

Sentient
Sentient
4 years ago

Ok, kids in Powdunk, Middle America: don’t try Goldmund’s “pickup a chick and fuck her in the bathroom in front of the guy who brought her to the dinner party” in your small hometown! That only works without social (and maybe physical) consequences in the anonymous, large-scale big city or when you have the luxury of blowing out of town quickly on your cross country trip, like Trust Fund Goldmund. In addition to my and ARs questions, you’ll also have to explain how in this civilized society you swear we still live in you keep coming back to the threat… Read more »

1.1K
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
%d bloggers like this: