The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?

This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.


  1. kfg,

    Already addressed my superstructure typo, yet you use it as a weapon to hit me again. Do it again. Third time’s the charm.

    Why should I listen to anything you say if you’re expressing such nihilism? It’s the philosophy of death.

    I want to live, to survive, to rebuild. I’ll certainly fight if necessary – and I am as we speak, on the mental level – but I’m not going into any fights thinking like a member of Napoleon’s Forlorn Hope Brigade or like I’m in a trench at the Somme in 1915. Sure, I’m going to die someday; we all have our appointment. But I’m going to do the best I can to survive, as long as possible, by winning.

    I’m going to do so much winning that I might get tired of winning… But, probably not.

  2. @KJ: ““Superstructure” was a typo.”

    Fair enough. But you might want to be concerned that I couldn’t tell something like that had happened. It looked perfectly typical of the sort of thing you might write.

    @YC: “The internet didn’t exist until about a generation ago.”

    When I was born artificial satellites and two American states didn’t exist. When my great aunt (my oldest living relative) was born, traffic cones, a Charlie Chaplin movie, and the Italian Tyrol didn’t exist, but the Austro-Hungarian Empire did.

    It’s amazing how much things can change in a single generation, but how much things can change in a single lifetime can really put the whole change thang into perspective.

  3. kfg,

    “Fair enough. But you might want to be concerned that I couldn’t tell something like that had happened. It looked perfectly typical of the sort of thing you might write.”

    Gimme a break.

    You’re wasting your time here. You should be teaching “I Know Everything 101” at Harvard.

  4. lol my ex-wife’s uncle was an old school cowboy. Cattle drives, rode a horse, lived on the range etc and he lived to see the early days of the Internet

  5. @kfg

    Ah, well, there ya go. You expect to survive. I know I’m going to die. I expect the collapse to kill me. Doesn’t mean I can’t go down fighting.

    I don’t fight like a Marine, who never retreats…I retreat and gather forces for eventual victory, like Geo. Washington. I don’t rely on personal fighting ability if I can avoid it. Doesn’t mean I can’t fight…there’s just no percentage in doing it if I can use better weapons.

    Victory through overwhelming betapower…the utility of the beta.

    Social skills, frame, self-confidence, and a sense of entitlement will allow alphas to survive by relying on the skills of betas…civilization will morph, but not disappear. You can craft your own little patriarchal kingdom from the bottom up.

  6. “Already addressed my superstructure typo, yet you use it as a weapon to hit me again.”

    There’s this shit called “time.” Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

    “Why should I listen to anything you say if you’re expressing such nihilism?”

    I know you have internet access. Did you know you can look up the meaning of words on the internet before you use them? I only mean to poke you with a pointy stick, not punch you in the jaw, but come on, you leaned right in to that one.

    You are going to die. Something is going to take you out. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe 60 years from tomorrow. But it’s going to happen. Simple fact all grown ups know.

    Many devout Christians (i.e. not nihilists by definition) plan their lives around the idea that they could die in just five minutes.

    “No point buildin’ that thar, ’cause ta cricks just gonna riiize in ta spring and wash it plumb away” ain’t nihilism. It’s just plain horse sense.

    It is a deductive fact that if a collapse happens, it will kill me, but a pretty solid deduction. If nothing else the medical care required to get me through another 60 years is unlikely to be available.

    I’d love to take the cycling World Hour Record for 120+ year olds, but what’s love got to do with it?

  7. Ton
    Let me know if that not washing them off works for you.

    My chops were to salty for me but everyone else loved them

    How long are you soaking them?

  8. Depends on the number and thickness of the chops

    In this case over night, they were all bone in and about 1 &1/2″ thick and I had 14 of them

    Everyone loved them but me. Reckon I am not that big a fan of salt

  9. kfg,

    What’s the point of your last post? Just give me the summary. You know I’m not as bright as you (none are); I’ve read it three times and still can’t understand what you’re getting at. It makes absolutely no sense to me in the context of a reply to the last post I addressed to you.

  10. Excuse me, post before last. I know your hyper-pedantic nature won’t let that detail pass.

  11. “I don’t fight like a Marine, who never retreats…I retreat and gather forces for eventual victory, like Geo. Washington.”

    Mall Ninjas will be in the 1.5 wave to die. I think I’ll at least make it longer than that. I have addressed some of these issues, but I’m not going get into it here. And most of the survival blogs are filled up with clueless nutters who think they’re going Rambo their way through.

    I remember a video of a guy who spent two years putting together a bug-out bag before he went out in the field to try it out.

    Didn’t last the night. I wasn’t surprised, but he had to learn the hard way. At least he did it before an actual bug-out.

    Q: Why do Estonians “water” their flower beds with motor oil?
    A: To keep their guns from rusting.

  12. @Kid jupiter Esquire

    You are in your 40s and just becoming set in your ways. Twenty years from now they will be in stone. Consider this before you disrespect your elders,on their methods of deduction,if you cannot be taught at your age how much less in 20 more.

    For myself Disrespect to elders(unless they are dangerously out of line) is bad karma and will bring about much unnescessarry pain and suffering.

  13. stuffinbox,

    Wow, just when I thought this whole thing couldn’t get any weirder, you post that.

    There are some serious loose screws bouncing around here.

  14. “Excuse me, post before last.”

    See? That’s that “time” thing right there.

    “You should be teaching “I Know Everything 101” at Harvard.”

    Oh. Hey. Another funny. I’m going to have to enjoy this one by myself, but the peanut gallery can extrapolate from the former. I’ll throw this into the mix though:

    Now MIT was MIT when Harvard was a pup
    And MIT’ll be MIT when Harvard’s time is up
    And if any Harvard sonofabitch, thinks he’s in our class
    He can pucker up his rosy lips and kiss the beaver’s ass

    Princeton’s run by Wellesley, and Wellesley’s run by Yale
    And Yale is run by Vasser, and Vasser’s run by tail
    Harvard’s run by stiff pricks, the kind you raise by hand
    But MIT’s run by engineers, the finest in the land

    “You know I’m not as bright as you (none are) . . .”

    Don’t be silly. There’s at least seven and might be as many as twelve. Once you get above about four standard deviations the precision breaks down to about a standard deviation, and above that it’s a bit of direct comparison deal. There aren’t enough data points to form a valid statistical base. In effect everyone out there is an outlier.

  15. stuffinbox,

    Thanks, Pops!


    Once again, I don’t understand you. What does the “time” reference mean? The rest is blah blah blah

  16. @kfg

    Once again, I don’t understand you. What does the “time” reference mean? The rest is blah blah blah

    I think we need a lower shelf for the cookies.

  17. ASD,

    I don’t eat cookies. How about something constructive? I don’t understand what he’s talking about.

  18. @kfg

    Mall Ninjas will be in the 1.5 wave to die.

    I’d pick people who have hiked the Appalachian Trail, outdoors enthusiasts, and one or two SWAT team or SF men, a mechanic, a machinist, a doctor/medic…maybe 20 people…cross-train people so that we have two apprentices and one expert for all specialties. We’d figure out where we’re lacking and recruit the skills needed.

  19. While Kid Jupiter does, lord knows what at this point, I look forward to seeing Kathy Griffin, Lida Bloom, Alec Baldwin and Jim Carey’s defense of Bill Mahers right to be edgy as a comedian and his “house nigger” jibe…

    Please tweet their responses…

  20. Kid Jupiter wrote:

    “It just seems like a waste of time to get into nonstop shit-throwing and defending of myself, which I’m fully capable of, but which isn’t really helping me move my own ball.”

    Right. TRM is about a bottoms up approach. It’s not about top down saving culture or society from itself. And that is where the admonition to acknowledge how things are, rather than how they ought to be.



    Hey man, I am being sincere now because you’ve stuck with this like a pit bull. I love debating in real life, it fits my personality type. I don’t do it much here because frankly I’m still a rookie and the red pill is slowly digesting in me. I still urp it up now and then because it’s a bitter pill to swallow. There are phases to all this and you’re in one now, but for sure it’s not acceptance.

    Some men here have been very patient with you. But you are not seeing that. It’s ok dude. Everybody has their own story and while they are unique, many of them resonate with similar patterns of life experience. We’ve all arrived at TRM for our own reasons. You’re upset with Goldmund’s behavior for your own reasons. They are legit. You’re feelings and reasons for being pissed are legit. But…..the men you are going back and forth with volley after volley are pretty damn bright guys. I’ve kept my mouth shut for the most part on TRM because I know when I don’t know shit and instead of talking shit about a topic I’m a newb at I keep quiet. But I luv these dudes for what they bring to the table. No homo stuff as Blax would say. Lol

    Rollo’s blog, the dudes here and (especially SJF) have been damn near life savers for me. In the real world SJF talked me off more than one cliff…let’s round up to a half dozen. I’m grateful as hell for his patience and deep knowledge of what he shares. Rollo just keeps rolling. ASD makes me laugh my ass off. TON is a righteous dude. Sentient is a playa with groovy shit to share. Blax crushes’em all and some of us wish we had real brothers like him.

    TRM is a tribe of sorts.if you are able to relax and take time to appreciate all that these people have to offer it becomes pretty fucking amazing to come to this virtual space and learn, share, write in frustration, laugh, debate and enjoy being a better man. You wrote you’ve been have been visiting this space for a while. For whatever reasons you decided this post was the time to jump into the comments. You’ve tried very very hard to share your beliefs and positions. Kudos to you for being a determined guy to stick to your guns. I’ve learned in life that if you know you’re right and nobody will listen then perhaps the delivery is off. I often have to adjust my delivery at work. I know my shit pretty well at work but come off as a condescending asshole sometimes. When I realize and NEED to get my message across I change my delivery.

    When I find out I was wrong I reconsider and learn.

    My whole life I was wrong about a lot of shit. Heaps of praise to all the guys mentioned above (and others I didn’t mention by name) for what they share because I now know what I don’t know about the red pill.

    I hope you stick around. I also hope you’re able to find a way to communicate with these very awesome dudes so that you find benefit to their dialogue.

    If you want to slam me for writing this feel free. Let whatever shit out you need to. It won’t make me feel bad. I truly don’t care what you think of me. That is not important. What matters is why did you arrive here and what are your personal goals? You don’t have to share them, but maybe just consider that others here have similar goals and the learning never stops until we’re dead.

  21. asdgamer
    I’d pick people who have hiked the Appalachian Trail,

    Do you know any of those people already, as in “right now”? I sure would like to.

  22. And yeah, I sometimes get all touchy-feely (no homo) after a day working outside followed by a glass of bourbon and a nice cigar. Nice to reflect on what a great fucking space this is.

  23. I haven’t done End to End. I’m thinking of doing it for my 70th, and in memoriam of a guy who I once met on the Vermont section who was doing the same. We were only in company for a couple of days, because I was actually doing the Long Trail at the time, but he made an impression on me.

    And it fits neatly in between my long term cycling goals.

  24. “People who hiked the App Trail? Lesbians?”

    I suppose which ever opportunity presents itself.

  25. Hmmm.

    I wouldn’t be so sure that the collapse is coming anytime soon. Societies tend to be more resilient than people who are dissatisfied with them generally think, and our society is quite affluent, militarily powerful, technologically advanced and generally has enough bread and circuses to keep most of the would-be destroyers at bay for quite some time. No future predictions are certain, of course, but banking on a near or even medium term collapse is not necessarily a good bet.

    In any case, the “honorable” approach advocated by KJ here would not be much of an improvement over the behavior he finds psychopathic here. Whether you’re banging her in the bathroom or banging her a few days later, there still isn’t “honor” or “trust” among men there, the female behavior isn’t significantly more controlled, and hypergamy isn’t being significantly hemmed in because she’s banging 24 hours later and in private. Yes, it may feel less primitive to you, but if you’re concerned about such things as civilization decline and a lack of honorable behavior, you also would be looking to hem in the lay that happens 2 days later — which you aren’t doing, probably because a part of you recognizes that this is impossible under the current conditions.

    Those conditions are less about “men not acting to hem in hypergamy and enforce external limits on women’s behavior” as they are about massive technological and economic changes that have liberated women, full stop — from sex being likely to result in pregnancy, to ability to terminate a pregnancy at will, to the ability to support themselves (“be her own beta”) due to the rise of the service and techno-economy, these are things that aren’t getting rolled back, and they are the real reasons women are behaving as they are. In other words, because they can for the first time in human history due to unprecedented technological changes around pregnancies, and the development of an economy in which they can more readily participate and earn substantial amounts of money independently of being tied to their fathers, brothers or husbands. None of that is changing, none of it is getting rolled back, and all of it is the real reason why we live in a world of Open Hypergamy, as Rollo rightly describes it. It was as soon as they were available and solidified that women’s behaviors changed substantially in how they were acting them out. Hypergamy is not new, but the rise of casual sex, hookups, bathroom sex and so-on if rather new and not something most women were acting out historically, despite having *wanted* to do so, because of the *consequences* that *nature* imposed on them — almost as soon as those were removed, the behaviors almost instantly changed, in the space of less than a generation. No men “standing up to the behaviors” would have changed that one iota.

    Dreams of rolling this back or regulating it or limiting it, or of seeing some phantom Caliphate impose sharia, are fruitless and pointless in this context, precisely because they overlook the underlying reasons for why things are the way they are. The option open to men is to adapt to the new reality, which is what we are about doing here at this blog. Because that is still possible in this environment, and the rest of it is not — no longer possible. The underlying reasons are real, tangible and technological, and they are not going to get rolled back.

  26. @ Kid

    On not understanding kfg, lol.

    After reading every comment from kfg over the years, my advice to you would be to turn off your ” active brain ” to grasp his points. I’ve yet to see anyone here, or IRL, who says so much while typing so little.

    But your brain can get in the way of understanding. That’s true with lots of stuff. Hell, many eastern religion/philosophies are built on that very concept.

  27. ” . . . they are not going to get rolled back.”

    The only direction there has ever been is forward. Going back to some Golden Age (which probably never even actually existed) is just another form of Utopianism. Even if you tear down what you have you still have to start from where you are and move on. Knowing where you are helps. Just a bit.

    I think it’s worth noting that most Appalachian Trail through hikers these days don’t necessarily know a lot about survival. Their chief concern is making time. If they aren’t constrained by social obligations, they are still constrained by the natural – the weather. There’s a fairly narrow window in which you can reasonably expect to get it done without having to break off and complete it some following year.

    So they rely on careful planning of logistics that make the attempt highly dependent on a functioning civil society off the trail.

    What they do know, as a collective consciousness, is what really happens to gear away from the REI store and weekend parks.

  28. Roused,

    I’m not going to slam you after a post like that. Very good post, I appreciate it.

    I don’t like what Goldmund did. I think it was terrible. I’m not sure why I have such a visceral reaction to it; something like that has never happened to me before, so it’s not an experience-based negative reaction.

    It just seems objectively wrong to me that he’d do what he did, drunk or not. I’m not even going to get into the chick’s end of it; I don’t expect dogs to meow and cats to bark, why would I expect a chick to exercise responsibility for herself and her behavior? Chicks need outside limits placed on them because they’re incapable of doing so themselves – it’s always someone else’s fault. “One thing led to another”, and all that shit. Rollo’s buddy Roosh had a good essay on it, that women are like water, they take on the shape of the vessel into which they’re poured.

    I understand Goldmund sensed an opportunity to get a lay. I love getting laid – I’m keen for opportunities to have sex. I would surmise all of us do. But, not like that. Not right in front of the guy who brought her there. I don’t think it matters what the status was between the chick and the Aussie. You were invited to a dinner party by a mutual friend and this is not the way to act. Just take a flyer; Goldmund is always out and about, picking up chicks. A new one would be there the next day and he wouldn’t even remember or regret taking a flyer on this chick.

    I’m also skeeved by the public bathroom thing. To each his own, and apparently this happens quite a bit in the big city, but I think it’s disgusting. But let animals be animals.

    As I’ve admitted, I’ve hooked up with and banged girls with boyfriends, girls with weird orbiters who thought they were together. I was even banging a married chick in 2014 who was separated – I broke that off when she told me that they were still “separated” but he moved back into the house. She wanted me to come stay over her house while he was there! (I’d never been inside the house, I always hosted.) That’s how fucked up women are, she thought that would be OK, because they had an official status as “separated.” Meantime, I knew full well the dude still thought of her as “his.” So, why would I show him up like that? In the house he bought and lived in for years? (He didn’t know me, I never met him, but I know how this shit works.)

    I would never show up another man to his face like that, it would make me feel ashamed of myself as a man. There is such a thing as honor and pride.

    The fact that most of the guys here think that what G did in that scenario in OK also bothers me. It’s taking the “only the strong survive” thing too far. It’s barbaric, animalistic behavior, not a good reflection on these guys or their values as men. Not the kind of guys I’d trust to have my back when the cards are down. We all have bad luck, sometimes fall on tough times or a rough patch. Last thing I’d want around in those situations are guys I couldn’t trust. Because being OK with this shit translates into other areas of life, as well.

    Maybe I’m the crazy one, but I think it’s important to surround yourself with a good crew in life, guys who won’t kick you when you’re down and who you can trust to behave with proper social etiquette at events you host, who won’t embarrass you. I believe there is an objective right and wrong, and that’s it.

    Now, what I’m doing here… I like Rollo’s writing, I like to read the blog. It’s been eye-opening for me, been a regular reader for about 3 years. I tried commenting and getting involved in discussions in the past, but this same sort of thing happened – personal attacks, abuse, constant criticism that wasn’t even remotely constructive – with a different cast of characters. One guy was particularly bad. I was just like, fuck this – these guys are whacked.

    You say one thing they disagree with, or that they think isn’t “Red Pill,” and they go fking bananas. Who are these guys? What makes them experts? I don’t know them personally, I can’t observe how they live their lives, if they actually practice what they preach or are just keyboard jockeys. Half the shit they say makes no sense.

    Like the shit kfg is saying about “I don’t plan on surviving,” his meanderings that are supposed to be some kind of profound intellectual revelations, and his constant pedantic criticism. and know-it-all posturing. Wow, give him a medal! He guessed my ethnicity! That makes him Nostradameus, we must listen.

    How about this Ton guy? Can this schtick be for real? He sounds like a real kook. Calls me “Kid Jackass.” gets on me as “attention seeking” because I gave some of my background to flesh out my points.

    stuffinbox – “Respect your elders, sonny.” Thanks, grandpa! WTF is that all about?

    SJF, another winner. I say what I do, that I play bass, share a little about myself, he says he doesn’t believe it and starts mocking me.

    Blax is cool. ASD came around. Couple other guys like Chunky – good comments, rational, nuanced points, don’t just blanket discount everything he doesn’t agree with as BLUE PILL.

    But, seriously, some of you guys need your heads examined. It’s disappointing that a blog of this caliber has such nut jobs as regular commenters. Get help.

  29. “It’s always great to see ya Novaseeker.

    Great stuff.”

    I agree, Which is what are you going to do about it? Like the Original Post? Are you going to go on about it with 500 or a 1000 comments in debate? Are you going to be in the bargaining phase of Grief? If every one were just to behave properly my Kid Jupiter work would be done.

    Are you going to get through Red Pill triage? Are you going to be happy with Red Pill Awareness?

    Does Kid Jupiter have a millstone around his neck or the freedom and the power and the sovereignty to exploit his new found red pill and Game powers? Or piss and moan about them?

    Keep in mind that tribal virtues work on small scales. Ask SFC Ton what happens when he scales his buddies in the military. What about the first 5 buddies? The next ten (25)? The next 25 (75). The next 1500? What happens when you have 2500 military soldier buddies in your group. What happens there? Do you really care? About them?

    What happens when you have 350 million in your American tribe and you have Hillary Clinton as a President? What happens with your tribe? It falls apart. Because it is no longer a small tribe that home Sapiens were evolutionarily designed for.

    Which is why you do you and have a Goldmund approach to life. The top down stuff won’t work. Cause it flies in the face of the law of least energy. And each bottoms-up approach is different in it’s own way. In order to be happy you have to account for each and every one of a range of criteria. That takes competence on each an every on of those criteria. So start your journey and just do it.

    It’s no surprise that Kid Jupiter is tired, he’s swimming against the tide of The Red Pill Brand on TRM. That’s called flailing in the waters.

  30. SJF,

    Not tired, not swimming against any RP Brand. I don’t believe being RP and abhorring what Goldmund did in that situation are mutually exclusive.

    You are talking some very Left-Hand Path shit here. The Left-Hand Path may be the way to “untold earthly power and hedonic pleasure,” but be careful; you’d better really, REALLY know what you’re fucking with if you think you can sustain a “bottom-up” approach to life forever, without some guidance from “The Up,” which has an overview of things, like a helicopter observing traffic down below. You are sorely mistaken if you think you can pull shit like Goldmund did indefinitely and not face consequences, somehow and somewhere. Bank on it.

    Some may call the “Up” I’m referring to “God,” but it’s more complex than a guy with a beard in the sky. It’s a metaphysical concept.

    Go look it up if you’re confused and don’t know what I’m talking about with those terms.

    Why do you think I selected the handle that I did? Kid Jupiter? It symbolizes something. Look up Jupiter/Zeus from Greco-Roman mythology. Look up what concepts he stands for, not just the obvious things. He also stands for mercy and compassion. The word “Jovial” comes from Jove, another name for Jupiter. Jovial, good spirits, good vibes.

    Mercy and compassion are two of the traits that separate us from animals. Also, from the non-Western cultures that are out-reproducing us and taking us over, little by little. We have a good thing going with our culture, we should do everything we can to preserve it.

  31. ” Look up Jupiter/Zeus . . .”

    Dyeus in the old religion. The sky god, so naturally also the god thunder and lighting. Also the father of the gods, so at some point Phater was often added to it.

    God (of the sky) the Father. Deus pater.

    You’d almost think they were all talking about the same damn thing.

  32. @ Kid

    My last comment tonight, as I gotta bang and get my beauty sleep.

    Growing up I was part of a fairly huge social circle. I can’t even count in hindsight.

    Around 7 or 8 guys I grew up with joined the military fresh out of high school. 3 of these guys, count ’em, THREE, were deemed ‘ special ‘. Once I actually was able to grasp what that meant, I was more proud of them than they were of themselves, lol.

    I’d ride the bus from Jersey to Bragg and Benning to be around them when they had leave, and when they came home, they’d travel in packs of special guys. It was like they’d known each other forever.

    Just like in the real world, everybody isn’t special. Not all men are even capable of really even relating to special.

    It’s easy to point a finger at a man and attempt to misguidedly ridicule ‘ bluster and bravado ‘ without the understanding that the man is a proven commodity. He has something most guys don’t have, or will never bother to find out if they have, because the test is too hard, too dangerous or fucking deadly.

    How does a man act if he knows shit about himself, other men and the world at large, in ways 99% of men will never be tested enough to know?

    Realistically, how can the untested, comfortable man judge the tested one?

    We’re not all equal. Truth. Some guys master their circumstances and do and say and be what and how they want to. That in itself rubs folks the wrong way.

    Some of us over-respect ‘ boundaries’ and never test them.

    Men on whole are being tested by the FI every minute of the day, and most of us are failing miserably. Don’t be too quick to misunderstand the proven man whose been tested and has figured shit out for himself. Looks and sounds like bluster and bravado in the eye of the unproven.

    Oh, and kfg doesn’t sound like a death loving nihilist. We are indeed all going to die. Proven fact, lol. The trick is in what degree of fear that fact instills in you? How does it hinder?

    Then, as SJF says ” what are you going to do about it?”.


  33. Kid Jupiter
    I don’t like what Goldmund did. I think it was terrible. I’m not sure why I have such a visceral reaction to it; something like that has never happened to me before, so it’s not an experience-based negative reaction.

    You might try figuring out why you had and have that emotional reaction. Nobody else here knows for sure, it’s inside your head. You’re outraged by it, and then outraged that none of the other men here share your outrage. It’s all emotion, all the time.

    Plus “what if all men acted like Goldmund” is a logical fallacy that I won’t name right now. It is not going to happen, so it’s moot.

    The fact that most of the guys here think that what G did in that scenario in OK also bothers me.

    Making stuff up inside your head and projecting it onto others is not communication. It is projection. You have not read very closely over and over again.

    However emotional this makes you, nobody died. Nobody was permanently maimed. A lot worse stuff happens every day than “beta guy oneitis spends money on woman who gets screwed by some other man”. Beta guy didn’t go back to his place and stick a gun in his mouth, or hang himself from the nearest tree. If you’ve truly read every posting on this site you know what I am referring to.

    Kid, be as outraged about Goldmund as you want, but it would be a good idea if you were to stop demanding that all the rest of us join you in ritual outrage.

  34. Blax,

    “It’s easy to point a finger at a man and attempt to misguidedly ridicule ‘ bluster and bravado ‘ without the understanding that the man is a proven commodity. He has something most guys don’t have, or will never bother to find out if they have, because the test is too hard, too dangerous or fucking deadly.”

    That’s great. I don’t begrudge Ton his special skill and experience. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is, indeed, an elite soldier. I’ll suspend any disbelief and take his and your word for it, even though many of you were quick to doubt and disbelieve me when I told you about myself and what I do.

    But Ton’s specialness is not the only specialness out there worthy of respect. We all have our own strengths. I have “special” knowledge and skills that I’ve only touched on here. Not combat-related, but that wasn’t my path in life.

    Does that make Ton more “special” than me and my skills, what I contribute to the tribe? Not that I’m looking for special snowflake head pats, just asking. Seems that Ton thinks he’s “specialer” than me because he did things I didn’t do, that put him into harm’s way more than I’ve had to be in life. I tip my hat to him and acknowledge it, but I’m not going to take any shit from him, solely because of that. Respect is a two-way street.

    Like the way he dissed my father because he was an officer. My father’s path wasn’t combat-related, either. He was a supply officer, kind of like the quartermaster, aboard Navy ships. His biggest tours of duty were aboard aircraft carriers. So, for example, the SEALs are tough guys, have important jobs, are elite sailors. Same with the pilots, they’re elite officers. But, they need to eat aboard the ship when their out to sea, right? They need to be supplied, right? Someone has to do that job and be skilled enough to have the right supplies at hand when and where they’re needed, so the tactical guys like SEALs and pilots can do their jobs. That’s called logictics, and it’s part of the Strategy-Tactics-Logistics triad. One is not more important than the other.

    The tactics guys usually have the most bravado, because they’re the real ‘players’, direct action guys. They become arrogant, like the QB of the football team, or whatever. Many think they’re better than everyone else and forget that they need support to do their jobs correctly and efficiently. For every one of them, there are maybe 10 guys supporting them who also have pride in their job and esprit de corps, too.

  35. Anon Reader,

    “Kid, be as outraged about Goldmund as you want, but it would be a good idea if you were to stop demanding that all the rest of us join you in ritual outrage.”

    I didn’t demand the rest of you join me in “ritual outrage,” whatever the fuck that is. It’s not “ritual outrage,” it’s actual outrage.

    I was responding to Roused’s query of me, and I stated that it bothers me that most of you guys think what Goldmund did is OK, and I detailed why I don’t think it’s OK and what I believe are the downstream effects of thinking it’s OK.

    I didn’t tell you to think another way. You’re free to think any way you want. I’m free to dissent and think it’s wrong, and explain why.

    Like I said earlier, I don’t believe being disgusted at what Goldmund did in that situation and being “RP Aware” are mutually exclusive. I haven’t gotten amnesia and forgotten the RP truths I’ve learned at RM and other Manosphere sites. I’m still aware of the FI, hypergamy, the New Set Of Books, etc. My eyes are open and I see it all around me.

    I just think what he did was wrong. That’s it. Do yourself a favor and stop reading into it. I’ll figure it out – but I really don’t see a problem with my have the decency to find Goldmund’s actions objectionable.

  36. @Kid Jupiter

    “but I really don’t see a problem with my have the decency to find Goldmund’s actions objectionable.”

    You can find it objectionable. But WOMEN don’t. To women the woman did no wrong since the stupid fuck was just her plane ticket.

  37. Yollo,

    I don’t really care what WOMEN think. As I’ve said, WOMEN don’t have the capacity to judge right from wrong, control themselves, and set boundaries for themselves; they need an outside force restraining and keeping in check their destructive impulses.

    Men knew this for 1000s of years. It’s only in the last 100 years in Western society that they’ve been programmed to forget and the social contract changed to allow women unrestrained expression of their destructive impulses.

    This is why I focus mostly on Goldmund’s agency in the situation, not the chick’s. I wouldn’t expect her to act any differently.


    BTW, I’ve done some more research on Goldmund, reading more of his blog, Twitter, etc. He’s really a product of Big City anonymity and scale. He couldn’t get away with this shit in a smaller-scale community, with more social cohesion and consequences for anti-social behavior. Just read his last blog post, where he states that the host of the dinner party is pissed at him and probably won’t be inviting him to any more events with women present; his ‘game’ breaks down when the scale is smaller because there’s a check put on his behavior. Plus, what other, less ‘freewheeling’ guys would want this fucker around their women, knowing what he’s capable of? His blessing turns into his curse if it’s taken out of it’s realm of effectiveness.

    Guys like this are required to live like “lone wolves” because they can’t gain the trust of other men, more beta men (most of society). They’ll exclude him from their groups because they can’t trust him, he doesn’t follow established social rules. Yeah, I know – chicks dig it. But, it’s not an easy road when you can’t gain the cooperation of other men. Chicks are good for one thing in today’s environment, but when you need shit done, you want to have a solid crew of guys you can count on.

    He seems like a very smart, interesting guy, though. But someone is paying his bills, and I don’t think it’s him; living in NYC, even Brooklyn, isn’t cheap, by any stretch. But this guy has what seems to be unlimited time and resources to go galavanting all over, drinking $9 drinks, partying, writing books, going on vacations. Maybe he hit Powerball or something, but more likely, he’s a trust fund kid with the luxury of being able to fart around on Daddy’s dime, with no responsibilities. Much easier to lead the life he leads without worrying about where your next dollar is coming from…

  38. Kid Jupiter touches on an interesting topic that relates to Rollo’s assertion concerning the ‘old set’ of books.

    In Baumeister’s controversial work ‘Cultural Suppression of Female Sexuality’ he proposed the ‘female sexual control theory’ concerning female sexuality. He basically proposed that females on the aggregate use sex as a resource and control its supply intrasexually for maximum resource extraction.

    This supply limit (sexual prudence, chastity, virginity etc.) required maximum resources and marriage from men to be accessed, beta Bucks, old set of books.

    Problem now is that females want to engage in their sexuality freely (unlimited supply) with alphas while still expecting maximum resources and commitment for their sexuality from betas. To the extent they,ve back ended marriage contracts and expect the right to pursue their sexuality even while married.

    The real question is why pay for something someone else got for free? Plate spinning is the par excellence response to the new paradigm, the new set of books. It’s the price women themselves have put on their pussies.

    Kid Jupiter and Goldmun’s friend are simply operating from the old set of books.

  39. Johnny,

    I’m not operating from any set of books near to what the Aussie guy in the story is operating from. I would never be caught dead in a situation like that – I was woke to that dynamic long before I found RM and the RP. My parents, especially my mother – believe it or not – clued me in to women’s ways when I was much younger. Thank Jove, because the divorce-related carnage I’ve witnessed among my friends and family is mind-boggling. (I’ve never been married.)

    You’re 100% correct about plate spinning, but spinning multiple plates effectively and actually getting pussy from the different plates concurrently is often easier said than done, especially for a guy with a career and some resources, as opposed to a bohemian slouch like Goldmund, who obviously has resources coming from somewhere, but no career and lives like an artist.

    When you have a career and resources, some nice things, chicks will put the Beta Bucks tag on you, even if you act with alpha behaviors. They interpret your nice stuff as equating ‘provider’ and will hold out with the pussy. Conversely, the guys who have nothing (or appear that way), who can effectuate The Right Attitude, can spin productive plates easier because the chicks don’t expect anything else from them up-front (they may catch feelings and want to know “where this is going” later, but it’s easier to lay them up-front).

    Rollo details this where he states that he had a river of pussy in his broke musician days, living like an animal with a mattress on the floor. I also can vouch for it; the most action I got was in the 5 years I took off between college and law school, when I lived on the West Coast, worked in restaurants and odd jobs and played music. And I got a lot of play in law school, as well; I made myself different than the other stiffs by still keeping my hair somewhat long and dressing down most of the time. Chicks thought I was hot.

    Things got tougher as I got older and had to clean up my act and grow up; I started giving the ‘provider vibe’ as I got my professional credentials and started working and taking responsibility.

    Just wanted to clear up another misconception.

  40. I understand where your coming from Jupiter, it’s the same paradigm every man is facing nowadays.

    I know a woman who’s had a friends with benefits for two years and is only using him for sex while she searches for a ‘real relationship’. Like, what the fuck?

    I simply can’t reconcile paying for something someone got for free, it’s a suckers bet. I’m fine with friend with benefits but no way will I commit my resources beyond that.

  41. The collaspe is in full effect for working class/ blue collar America, rural or inner city. Both political parties are overtly hostile to both groups, though the dems are more overt about it. We haven’t not seem the full impact of a lot of things and automation is only going to make shit worse.

    The fan boy mad max wet dream collapse is unlikely for most Americans but will occur in some locations. I have spent my working life in one failed nation state or another and things are always worse when various ethnic groups reside side by side. The usa has a lot of that and we ain’t special. Their is no magic dirt and I see no reason why, when the full effect of the various, social, economic, cultural and political changes take effect that areas of the usa won’t see ethnic cleansing to some degree or another. Our a greater degree of ethinc cleansing. We already have our share of that going on but the media has its ways of labeling it something else. Out side those hot zones, the usa has been and will contuine to become increasingly third world like in its crime, violence, coruption, soical capital, bribery, good, services etc etc.

    The best way to deal with this is establishing generational wealth and moving to stable, homogeneous , monochromatic areas. Folks who have median or better iq have at least one more generation, though amassing real wealth and physical assets will become much more difficult. Folks on the wrong side of the bell curve are already knee deep in shit, with more shit rolling down hill on them

    A basement full of bandaides,beans and bullets, while not useless, ain’t the most effect things a man could be doing. It is easier and sexier in a way, so I get the appeal

  42. Actually, if you accept this for achievable truth

    „Novaseeker: “The option open to men is to adapt to the new reality, which is what we are about doing here at this blog.”

    and combine it with this

    „Rollo: What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?“

    an interesting question is, are there ethical responsibilities which can be generalized and forwarded to men with the purpose of giving value to all people involved in Goldmunds example: the girl, the beta, yourself. And if yes, why bother?

    And actually there are. It‘s advanced stuff and (almost goes without saying) voluntary. If you‘re advanced you can use your red pill/game knowledge to pluck girls of guys, wrack lives, cause massive drama, breakups, divorces, violence …. Just to get your dick wet. It will work, no prob.

    On the other side, like with Goldmund scenario: You can pick up a „taken“ girl from her beta in whatever constellation. You can give her the AF she craves because you have the knowledge that she‘s craving it, the experience to see the situation for what it is and the skills to do it. You can even „teach the Beta a lesson“ through it, as arrogant as that may sound. He will not see it and be bitter, hateful, hurt, pissed, angry, raging, will want to beat your ass and/or whine about it. But it may be the kick he needs to finally hit ground zero and, say, google: „How to attract women“ or even „why are women such heartless bitches???“ or something. And find the information out here. And might take first steps in a better direction with his life.

    To the outside it will look exactly the same: Assholish player prick took the girl from another guy. But the place it‘s coming from is very different.

    This seems to be the paradox with „acting ethically“ in a red pill/game context. To get advanced you have to get free from social conditioning. This forces you to make your own rules, because there simply are none and/or you‘re not bound to obey them. You are „free“ and have „social power“ but with that comes responsibility. Ultimately you realize that trying to give value instead of taking it paradoxically benefits yourself through benefitting other around you. Not because of some flowery universal laws of good and evil, but because of human psychology.

    You can bang 1000 girls through pure narcissistic dark triad asshole me vs. the world red pill game, but down that road you‘ll fuck yourself too and end up in a place that‘s very dark. If you are a legit sociopath you wont or can’t care. But you are not a legit sociopath.

    And yet even the very mindset that there COULD be a place where „taking a girl from another guy“ COULD benefit the lifes of the persons involved INCLUDING the other guy is so far outside the reality of the plugged in mainstream that you have to travel VERY far from the masses to even consider this. It‘s even outside the reality of many people IN the Red Pill community.

    Advanced shit.

  43. Rollo already talked about how it isn’t our responsibility to give women better Betas.

  44. Re: having ( nice ) things signaling provider, I disagree because ” provider ‘ is something that’s telegraphed through word and action.

    The ‘ money and stuff ‘ thing trips up many men. Wrt women and sex, some men see it as the path of least resistance. ‘ once I get the money/clothes/car, I’ll get girls ‘ is a mindset most chicks can smell on you. Most will treat you accordingly.

    Aussie boy is a good example. He had enough resources to buy an extra plane ticket and, I assume, get lodging for a chick. From G’s account, he just had to show up. Powerball aside, who made the financial investment?

  45. Blax,

    “Re: having ( nice ) things signaling provider, I disagree because ” provider ‘ is something that’s telegraphed through word and action.”

    I don’t believe that this is realistic. It’s correct in theory, but not in practice – I see it all around me and experience it, as well.

    When you drive a nice car, wear nice clothing, go to nice restaurants, what it telegraphs is that you can afford such things, and what that translates to in women’s minds is “he can provide.” We’re not talking about rocket scientists here – they don’t do complex math calculations, they react to what they’re immediately presented,

    Note that I’m not talking about the uber-rich out in the Hamptons or in Beverly Hills here – that is a sub-culture and world all its own. I’m talking about in “regular” middle America. Yes, a man with means’ attitude is important and can somewhat overcome being pigeonholed as a BB, but my point is that it’s easier for a man to spin productive plates if he’s not materially well-off and has the right attitude vs. if he is materially well-off with that same attitude.

    Thus, an interesting ‘game’ concept if you have means is “How do I pretend that I don’t?”

  46. “A basement full of bandaides,beans and bullets, while not useless, ain’t the most effect things a man could be doing.”

    Skills. The stuff ain’t worth shit without them and you’re probably going to lose most of the stuff anyway. The stuff is your grub”stake,” your Starter Kit to improve your longer term odds, not what you’re going to live on forever. You’re going to have to live off the environment, whatever that happens to be, and you won’t know what that is until you get there. Same as it ever was.

    I walk through an REI thinking, “You know, you wouldn’t need three quarters of this stuff if you learned to tie knots in twine you made and actually learned how to use a cheap ass pocket knife.”

    Nothing wrong with having the stuff, but when your guy line and the little plastic tensioner break, what are you going to do if you don’t know how to make a new guy line from found stuff and throw a taught-line hitch in it?

    That goes for higher tech too. It wouldn’t hurt to know how to scrounge through some high tech leavings and fabricate a working radio set out of it.

    And people skills will likely prove the most valuable skills of all. Crawling off alone into the woods is most likely crawling off to die like an animal. Humans thrive by cooperation.

    Trent Lane: “Actually, if you accept this for achievable truth . . .”
    KFG: “Good stuff.”
    The Juvenile Jovian: “But that’s what I’ve been saying all along!”
    The World: “No, it isn’t.”

    @KJ: “. . . living like an animal with a mattress on the floor.”

    Are you calling the Yamato animals?

  47. kfg,

    “They’re animals, anyway. Let them lose their souls.” – Sollozzo in “The Godfather”

    Apparently, that’s a big concept for Sicilians – being a human vs. being an animal. I used to hear it all the time coming from my older relatives when I was growing up: “They act like animals!’; “They treated us like animals!”; “It was like a zoo!”; “We’re not animals!” – stuff along those lines.

    Maybe it’s because to people like kfg and (apparently) Vox Day, we are animals and we have to prove otherwise? I don’t know for sure, it’s something worth pondering.

    But, my use of the term “animal,” such as in the phrase, “lived like an animal with a mattress on the floor,” is strictly a stylistic choice in words, based on my own internalized vernacular.

    I have no idea who the Yamato are. Are they Japanese?

  48. “; I started giving the ‘provider vibe’ as I got my professional credentials and started working and taking responsibility.”

    No misconceptions to clear up KJ… You describe the betaization process you went through, which is built upon your Golden Rule substructure…

    And all this blathering is just rationalizing what you feel, what every Beta feels losing to an Alpha. Jealousy…

    And I’ve spent time with only a mattress furnishing a one bedroom apartment at one end and BH and Out East and other big money enclaves… Where merely being there signals wealth, let alone what you have on or how you carry yourself. And the Game is the same. Alpha is attractive to women… Acting on this gets you laid very very fast…

    PS – Aussie would be able to buy himself more $9 drinks if he wasn’t buying girls who dont want to fuck him plane tickets…

  49. Oh and you aren’t a special southern Italian snowflake cheech… I am a quarter Sicilian. And a quarter Neapolitan myself…

  50. “I used to hear it all the time coming from my older relatives when I was growing up . . .”

    So, empirical observation is racism, which is bad, but if it’s culturally ingrained racism, it’s just an expression and just peachy. Got it.

    Q: What is an animal?
    A: Something that has no soul, so is exempt from being treated as if it has one.

    An interesting bit about how the Inquisition played out in the New World:

    Protestants had little compunction about killing Natives, because they had no souls, they were just animals and could be treated as such.

    Catholics considered that barbaric, because the Natives had souls and should be treated as humans, so they converted and baptised them.

    Then they had little compunction against killing them, because that was just sending their immortal souls to Heaven.

    To use your own example, what if I used the expressions I heard from my elders:

    “I Jewed him down,” or “They love their watermelon”? (That last one is tricky)

    I’m not attacking you. I’m holding up a mirror to your attack. So maybe, if you can learn to distinguish reflections from reality, you can start to get a clue about what the words you type actually mean in the world outside of your head.

    “I have no idea who the Yamato are.”

    The majority ethnicity occupying the island of Japan. Generally now also considered a race. Generally speaking a requirement for being a citizen of the nation-state of Japan.

  51. Sentient,

    “No misconceptions to clear up KJ… You describe the betaization process you went through, which is built upon your Golden Rule substructure…”

    It’s called “growing up.” As I wrote in one of my late-night dissertations last night, men need to be able to cooperate with one another in groups. Part of that process is respecting boundaries. If you carry yourself constantly with an “Alpha” bearing, you may be able to slay the ladies, but you’re going to have a hard time gaining and keeping the cooperation of other men. And it’s men’s cooperation you’ll need if you want to get things accomplished in the world. You have to balance this shit out, Sentient. Don’t be a “testa dura.”

    Hence, my “Golden Rule” of not picking up and fucking a girl another man brought to a dinner party, in the bathroom while still at the party. It doesn’t matter what their relationship status is, whether she “wanted it,” whether it makes me alpha, beta, gamma, kappa – I would respect that boundary in that situation because the future cooperation of my crew of males is more important that a quick thrill in the lavatory.

    PS, Goldmund is nowhere near an Alpha male, just for the record. Studying the Vox Day schematic, he’s a sigma. But, like I said, definitely a creature of the anonymity and scale of the Big City. Would be impossible for him to run his game in a smaller town with SFC Tons around, rather than the effete hipsters he’s dealing with in Brooklyn.

  52. “Respect is a two-way street.”

    No it’s not. I wise man I worked with on a construction site told me “a man respects you once you’ve broken his nose”… Now has was just out of prison and looking to put his life back on track again… But no doubt he would not hesitate to earn some bloke’s respect again at the expense of some scraped knuckles…

  53. kfg,

    “I’m not attacking you. I’m holding up a mirror to your attack. So maybe, if you can learn to distinguish reflections from reality, you can start to get a clue about what the words you type actually mean in the world outside of your head.”

    We have very different writing and thinking styles. You’re very left-brained and literal, I’m more right-brained and figurative. I like to focus on the style, the impact and effect of the words I use. I like using funny words and descriptors. I like to paint with broad strokes. You’re more concerned with the words’ literal meanings, and you’re more detail-oriented. Maybe miss the forest from the trees, whereas I err on the opposite end.

    To bring up the “I Jewed him down” and “I love watermelon” that you heard from your elders in comparison to me using “animals” is a bit of a stretch, no?

    To this point, I’m terrible at legal writing. I’m not the guy to go to for legal briefs. You would be great at it.

  54. “If you carry yourself constantly with an “Alpha” bearing, you may be able to slay the ladies, but you’re going to have a hard time gaining and keeping the cooperation of other men. ”

    Dissertation on Genghis Khan incoming in 3. 2. 1…

  55. Senient,

    An Alpha is a leader. Lesser men will follow an Alpha if he’s smart and displays that he cares about them and has their best interests in mind. A Sigma leads no one, is a lone wolf. Not an alpha – no men will follow him.

  56. So, to clarify my earlier point, if you carry yourself with an “Alpha” bearing that’s selfish and doesn’t seem to benefit the other lesser men, then no cooperation, that’s what will give you a hard time gaining cooperation.

  57. Sentient, I’m great at arguing verbally. I’m great at making a case, when I can get up and speak, without being interrupted constantly and without being jabbed with little, pedantic barbs from guys like you and kfg. That’s called debate: I get up and speak, then you get up and speak.

    What do you do? You really haven’t put yourself out there at all, you just sit back and slice at me. How about making some assertions, taking some risks? All I’ve done is take risks here, saying stuff. All you’ve done is sit back and attack me. How about you grow a pair and make some assertions, rather than strictly negations?

    Or are you more content and comfortable to ride my tip, because that’s your style?

  58. Making assertions is the problem… That’s not debating. And I’m still wating for you to answer the question posed to you way way at the top o’ this thread…

  59. Sentient,

    Making assertions is a problem? How so? I think it’s perfectly fine to make assertions. If someone like me didn’t display masculine risk-taking here and make some assertions, guys like you and kfg would have nothing to do but go around in little mental circles and grind the existing sand in your heads ever finer, until there’s nothing left.

    What was your question? I’m writing on the fly here, not going to have the time to really get into it today

  60. If you want to help other guys, be the guy that other guys will emulate rather than merely envy. Don’t do it for women, but because it’s an important mission.

  61. “Thus, an interesting ‘game’ concept if you have means is ‘How do I pretend that I don’t?'”

    Well if you want an exemplar, here’s one:

    (read the whole essay)

    It’s not about winning anymore with women—you can’t win. At this stage, it’s all about not losing. There are a thousand ways to lose, but there’s only one way to not lose: become an unapologetic asshole (if you’re not one already). This is not some seduction strategy or game advice—it’s a life requirement.

    It’s a survival tactic that will help you succeed during these turbulent times. I’m not suggesting you behave like I do, I can’t define your morals and I don’t want to—it’s on you to figure that out for yourself. What I am saying, though, is that you should never put your dignity and self-respect on the negotiating table. In other words: don’t be a spineless pussy.

    People, especially women, will try to steamroller you if they think they can get away with it—don’t fucking let them, ever. You should only do what’s best for you and for the people you love, and, most importantly, who love you too and will always have your back. Everyone else be damned.

    Lastly, don’t you ever worry about those people who decide to play the game and do the “right thing.” They won’t have any trouble finding you once their little dream world turns to shit and they need some guidance or moral support. All they’ll need to do is look down the road less traveled, and once they spot the guy that’s holding a bag full of money, doing whatever the fuck he wants with a smile on his face…

    Then they’ll know when they’ve found you.

    You don’t actually have to be an unapologetic asshole. Just have the attitude of one in your own way.

    This also dovetails with Rollos comment earlier in the comments:

    …..there is no neutral balance of Alpha and Beta that a woman will ever find attractive in a man. His mindset and behaviors must be predominantly, consistently Alpha to hold her Hypergamous sexual and relational interests.

  62. @KJ: “You’re very left-brained and literal . . .”

    And yet just up there a bit Blaximus tells you, based on his long term observation, that exactly the opposite is true. Huh.

    ” I’m more right-brained and figurative.”

    And that’s what we’ve been telling you all along, and you have been adamantly denying. Huh.

    One could almost be led to the conclusion that your compass card has gotten turned 180 degrees in its housing (not literally, figuratively) and you need to look at it in a mirror to see it the right way ’round.

    “To bring up the “I Jewed him down” and “I love watermelon” that you heard from your elders in comparison to me using “animals” is a bit of a stretch, no?”

    No. You’re just employing But What About ME? again.

    “I’m not the guy to go to for legal briefs. You would be great at it.”

    I have been employed to aid clerks and have presented argument in court.

    @Sentient: “Dissertation on Genghis Khan incoming in 3. 2. 1…”

    I’ve been thinking it for what, a couple days now?

  63. “I get up and speak, then you get up and speak.”

    Whereas here on an internet forum all the words just come out in a jumble all on top of one another.

  64. Assertion != debate… also you can’t claim unique – and temporal – definitions…

    “masculine risk-taking ” – is what Goldmund did… you are posting on a an anonomys message board.

    “guys like you and kfg would have nothing to do but go around in little mental circles and grind the existing sand in your heads ever finer, until there’s nothing left.”

    This is the guy calling for no ad hominems?

  65. ” . . . grind the existing sand in your heads ever finer, until there’s nothing left.””

    Hey, that’s Zen Buddhism!

  66. ASD,

    And those Alphas who don’t put effort into leading men don’t gain the cooperation of other men in any endeavors that require such.

  67. Yollo Comanche: „Rollo already talked about how it isn’t our responsibility to give women better Betas.“

    This goes without saying, too. The very notion is absurd if you operate/think from a Red Pill paradigm. This would do nothing for the other guy at all.

    Ethic responsibilities in a red pill paradigm for those who are not in it is an interesting concept. If we all accept Red Pill principles like Hypergamy, AF/BB and so on as truth (which most of us do, since we‘re here) and as you advance in Game you see, know and can do more with social and intergender dynamics than 99% of the men around you.

    You can use this for destruction and mayhem. You can use this to selfishly get your needs met with zero fucks given about anyone. Or you can use it to get your needs met AND give value to the people you interact with.

    The question is, why should you.
    The answer is, aside from metaphysical reasons like religion, Karma and so forth, in which you can chose to believe or not: you mainly do it for yourself.

    By fucking others up this way you fuck yourself up. Is it possible to go down the route of destruction this way with zero fucks given about anyone and lead a happy, fulfilled life long term? Probably for some. More likely you‘ll end up fucked yourself, without purpose, unable to ever satisfy your raging narcissistic urges, burning out and getting more and more shallow as you chase the next kick.

    Giving value makes you happier than taking value. It sounds corny like a cliche, but if long term happiness in life is your concern, it‘s true.

  68. @KJ

    When you drive a nice car, wear nice clothing, go to nice restaurants, “women will pigeonhole you as BB.

    I drive a shitty truck, wear used, shitty threads, eat fast food, but I come from Old Money ™ and there’s no escaping my nonverbal communication of entitlement. Externals can’t overcome internals. The way a beta’s mind works, if you have the externals, the internals show up. I honestly feel entitled to girls’ attention and their bodies if I want. And girls read that entitlement, of course. Even when they’re a whole lot younger than I am. Girls ping off of my internals, not my externals. The same goes for guys who have stuff…their internals follow their externals, but girls work the same way and ping off of guys’ internals. It’s a question of maintaining solid alpha internals instead of BB internals.

    I really wish you’d work on helping the people here (including yourself, unless you think you have your shit totally together…I sure as hell don’t) instead of fixing society, which is way beyond our ability to change.

  69. Kid Jupiter:
    “I have no idea who the Yamato are.”

    There is a site where you can learn many things. It is called “Google”. Some people use it to look up words they do not know. Try it sometime.

  70. Man, I haven’t heard ” testa dura ” in ages…..

    All alphas are not leaders of other men. Kid, it appears that you attribute mostly positives to ‘ alpha ‘, but alphas are still human and are subject to the same positives and negatives as anyone else. The difference is that usually they approach issues with the intent to always have things go in their favor

    Alphas can do this while doing charity work, or burning down a village.

  71. Someone sure is getting his mettle tested in a group while moving around portable goalposts…

    KFG once said in relation to Jack Donovan’s The Way of Men:

    “The way of women is the hive. All women belong to the hive simply by virtue of being women.

    The way of men is the trade society and a few good buddies he will put his life on the line for.

    Men are not alone when they don’t have a woman. Men are alone when they don’t have a right hand man, a fireteam and a secret society defined by trade. Belonging to all of these requires some formal or informal right of passage.

    The burden of performance. Men are individual not because they don’t belong to some group, but because they are only accepted by the group on an individual basis after his mettle has been tested.”

    In regards to Alpha and hierarchies, Jack Donovan wrote:

    Deficient masculinity is simply a lack of strength, courage or mastery.

    Because masculinity and honor are by nature hierarchical, all men are in some way deficient in masculinity compared to a higher status man. There is always a higher status man, if not in your group, then in another, and if not in this way then in that way, and if not now, then eventually. No one is the strongest, most courageous and the smartest or most masterful man—though some men are closer to the ideal or perfect “form” of masculinity than others. Masculinity in the perfect ideal is aspirational, not attainable. The point is to be better, stronger, more courageous, more masterful—to achieve greater honor.

    The men who possess the least of these qualities or suffer from an excessive lack of one in particular are the men who other men don’t want to be. They are furthest from the ideal. So long as they don’t openly despise the ideal or attempt to move the goalposts to appear “more masculine” by creating some new artificial standard, men will tend to include and help members of their gang or tribe who are unusually deficient in strength, courage or mastery. The lowest status men within a group are still usually included in the group unless they bring shame to the group as a whole—thus endangering the group, at least in theory—or fail so miserably that they become an excessive burden. Most high status men are not monsters, and most low status men don’t want to be a burden on others (because dependency is slavery), so men who are not good at being men generally try to find some way to make themselves useful or at least tolerable to a given group of men. Think of the funny fat guys and the frail artists and the nurturing fellows who make sure everything is in order for the men of action. All large groups of men seem to have members who assume these kinds of low status roles while remaining part of the honor group.

    Deficient masculinity is undesirable and results in low status. Men despise deficient masculinity in themselves because they would naturally rather be stronger, more courageous, and more masterful. Deficient masculinity rarely arouses hate or anger within a male group, though it may result in some general frustration.

    Full reference here, back when talking “egalitarian” with wildman :

  72. Kid Jupiter to ASD
    And those Alphas who don’t put effort into leading men don’t gain the cooperation of other men in any endeavors that require such.

    Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they don’t care. Not everyone is like you, understand that yet?

  73. Blax

    My best buddies dad walked around muttering “testa da minchia” all the time… sometimes abbreviated to “da minchia” and a shake of the head… as way to deal with the weariness of the world which confronted and confounded him daily…

  74. ” . . . there’s no escaping my nonverbal communication of entitlement.”

    I’ve mentioned a few times before that the principle thing I’ve gotten out of PUA blogs/Red Pill is how to make myself less attractive and noticeable. It’s an effort. Grey Man does not come naturally to me.

    And it ain’t because I’m classically good looking or Huuuuuge:

  75. @kfg
    “Walk through the REI…”

    Americans love to substitute gadgetry for skills. We wind up with some cool gadgets that way, and a lot of nearly useless objects. Speaking as an REI member, mind you.

  76. … A man can cooperate with you voluntarily, or you can beat cooperation out of him or kill him.

    Everything else is artifice. Artifice is not necessarily bad, but it doesn’t change the underlying facts.

  77. kfg,

    “Whereas here on an internet forum all the words just come out in a jumble all on top of one another.”

    Here on an internet forum, I post something, then I have you, Sentient, SJF, etc. attacking me, while generally making no comments of an assertive nature. At this point, I can probably assert something like, “Grass is green,” and have you guys attack me with, “No, grass isn’t necessarily green. Sometimes it’s blue, as in Kentucky Bluegrass. Sometimes it’s brown, if you don’t water it.”

    That’s how far gone you guys are, you can’t see the forest from the trees anymore with this shit.

    You guys are like the two old guys in the balcony on The Muppet Show; you create nothing, criticize everything.

    “No. You’re just employing But What About ME? again.”

    Once again, kfg, I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I’m serious when I say that; sometimes, I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say. I don’t understand how you can get “what about ME” from asking you how comparing something charged like “I Jewed him” and “I like watermelons” with “animals” is in any way relevant.

    Are you inferring a racial context to “animals?” Sometimes it was used in that context, but it wasn’t exclusively used that way. When Sollozzo used it in “The Godfather,” it was in a racial context. I used the quote because it came to mind and was a playful call-back to your bringing my ethnicity into the discussion.

    The Sicilians had very specific terms for black people, but I won’t go there here – not necessary, not relevant.

    Re: Zen – I’m more aware of certain subjects than I let on here. I’ve hinted at some of it, but these are topics that I don’t lead with and I’ve found are best to introduce slowly into any interactions, if at all. Let’s just say was doing more in Seattle in the mid-to-late 90s than playing bass.


    ” “masculine risk-taking ” – is what Goldmund did… you are posting on a an anonomys message board.”

    What Goldmund did wasn’t much of a risk; he himself wrote that he sized up the Aussie first to see if he was at risk of a beat-down for grabbing the girl, and he ascertained that Aussie wouldn’t defend, so he went for it. Not a risk. If it was a guy who would’ve posed a risk for Goldmund’s physical safety, I don’t believe Goldmund would’ve taken the risk, even if it was a guy who didn’t have strong frame with the girl.

    “Grind the sand” isn’t much of an ad hominem. My Muppet Show analogy was far worse.


    I’ll read the ROK article later. Thanks for the link.

  78. Anon Reader,

    Just saw this post of yours:

    “Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they don’t care. Not everyone is like you, understand that yet?”

    You would’ve been better to just stop at, “Maybe they don’t care,” and left out the baseless attack on me, that I want or expect everyone to be like me.

    Got it, brother?

  79. Blax,

    Real quick:

    “… A man can cooperate with you voluntarily, or you can beat cooperation out of him or kill him.”

    In a civilized society (which we still live in, I think…), the last two options really aren’t viable, so, realistically, you must obtain voluntary cooperation out of other men.

  80. ” The difference is that usually they approach issues with the intent to always have things go in their favor”

    Bingo… Time to upgrade from the Golden Rule, Kid, to the Platinum Rule [do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it]… but I suspect you have a very painful 10 years or so coming before you are ready for that…

    Ponder the Story of the Entrepreneur.

    The Entrepreneur meets with an eager young associate… He takes him to a mountan top and points to a large home… “you see that mansion there… you see that seven car garage? You see the Ferraris, the Mercedes? Look over there… you see the beach? You see that oceanfront beach house?”. “I See it! I see it all!”, says the associate, grinning. The Entrepreneur claps him on the back, looks him in the smiling face… “you my man… YOU are the guy that’s going to help me get all that!”.

  81. Kid
    You would’ve been better to just stop at, “Maybe they don’t care,” and left out the baseless attack on me, that I want or expect everyone to be like me.

    It’s a recurring theme in your emotionalism. No mirrors in your house? Or just never look at them?

  82. Force is always and option.

    Artifice and all that

    Technically, grass is not green. The effects of light reflection from chlorophyll makes grass appear green. That’s why in winter or lawn death, grass doesn’t have that lush green appearance.

    … But you didn’t hear that from me.😀

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