The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?

This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

1,119 comments on “The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

  1. Man those were the days for Raleigh! Man did they ruin the town. On my last bbq run to Raleigh some chick with a jersey accent was trying to tell me what was real Carolina bbq. Turned out the joint was owned by this family from up north.

    No thanks to that

    Maybe we have, though I am 10 years your junior

  2. Gotta read Goldmund’s follow up post.

    But before I do, let me just put something out there on the table.

    I still say Goldmund did nothing ” wrong “. Evidently it was more ill advised than he thought, but I find it appalling that people close to him would give him shit. He didn’t rape anybody.

    A simple ” Hey man, stop fucking chicks in bathrooms when we hang out ” should suffice.

    Social consequences? Well, whatever. Depends on just how deeply you are tied to the ( blue pill ) opinions of others, and what social circles you choose to inhabit.

  3. LOL folks I roll with would be surprised if I didn’t bang the bitch in the bath room, or bent her over my Harley behind the bar

  4. @ Kid

    ” You can be rest assured, I would be willing – and quite able – to enforce my boundaries on you, should you have tried to pull a Goldmund. ”

    And this^^^^ is exactly how it should be. From time to time men test each other. Nothing wrong with that, in this violence avoidance society we inhabit.

    Kid, even though we see this issue differently, we seem to think alike in some respects.

    We’re savages.



  5. @ Kid

    Easy man. You joke about the wrong shit when trying to be funny. You’re stepping out of fucking line.

  6. Blax,

    I was asking SFC in all seriousness if he has PTSD. I get that vibe from him, based on the way he writes and the things he says, combined with his military history. Not a joke, wasn’t trying to be funny.

    Eddie Murphy Raw is the best, love it! Golden age of stand up comedy.

  7. @Kid Gamma

    Seems like from Goldmund’s follow up that he’s actually catching some consequences now for what he did. Was it worth it? A drunken poke in the toilet with a chick he’ll never see again, and now these people don’t want him around any more social settings? I guess it depends on how much this particular group of people means to him, how important they are in his life.

    Hmm. How much did G have invested in this lot? Not a lot. Will his friend vanish? G probably doesn’t care…often better to ditch Blue Pill friends. Still, thx for the heads up about the followup.

    It’s a BP world, guys. Most people out there don’t get it. You will pay social consequences if you do this shit too brazenly. Watch out.

    If it’s a social circle where you have an investment (i.e., care about keeping access like a job or family or church or a hobby), cosign. Otherwise, who gives a fuck?

  8. Shit, Kid

    Move through Denial, Anger, Bargaining and Depression. Acceptance is your Red Pill target.

  9. ASDGamma,

    Don’t you have dancing to do with Mrs. Gamma and your Harem of Platonic Dancers who you’re “gaming” tonight?

    Or is it “gamma-ing?”

  10. @ Kid

    If you’re serious, and it was not a joke, well alright. I don’t think that this comment thread, with the way it’s been getting heated, is the forum to ask Ton that question. He has a blog and you could reach him. But once we all start fucking with each other and going at each other, you can see how your question can get misconstrued.

    Benefit of doubt advanced.

  11. “I enjoy everything about being masculine. You?”

    I’ve already stated as much. And I’m happy with my red pill. While you are choking on it.

  12. “SJF, if you’re going to throw a diss at me, at least have it make sense.”

    Sorry, I claim Inscrutable Mastermind Status. You are on your own. Good luck with that.

  13. SJF,

    Have you been drinking?


    That’s why I think this comment section should be moderated. I understand why Rollo wants open commentary, but the shit talking goes too far and you can’t tell seriousness from insults from joking.

    I can talk shit pretty well, and here it seems a necessary survival skill, but I’d rather be talking about serious stuff here, in the spirit of Rollo’s OPs.

    Kind of tough when one makes a point and 5 guys jump down his throat with insults.

    It is what it is.

  14. @Kid Gamma

    This shit is fun!

    Don’t you have dancing to do with Mrs. Gamma and your Harem of Platonic Dancers who you’re “gaming” tonight?
    Or is it “gamma-ing?”

    lol, good one, gamma-ing…if I wanted to know how to gamma. I’d just watch you

    trying to shame me for doing what I want? lol, you’re a trip

    platonic dancers, lol, these broads are looking for dick when they approach a man around midnight in a hookup bar…I don’t mention uggos or whales who approach me or try to get my attention…very few of those do…most are hotties…but you probably don’t believe me…honestly, it’s trippy, I have a hard time (heh) believing it myself

  15. @KJ

    really, don’t take this personally…just men punching each other in the arm

    I was out at a boardgame meetup today and a broad saw me and said hi, but I didn’t recognize her…she had changed her looks radically…she had a look of being taken aback…later I sent her a message that I didn’t have any problem with her new look…it was just that my face recognition software needed updating…hah!…I felt that she needed a little comfort…she replied quickly that I was fine…she’s about a 7 (face and figure…nice boobs!) and mid-20s…I’d say that me just being myself without dancing is high value, but the competition in the board game meetup is meager, lol

    Now, do I tease her, inferring that she looks a little gothic, saying that some girl mentioned that there are some new cute purses with metal that would make great accessories…how would you play it?

  16. Honor is a man’s reputation for strength, courage and mastery within the context of an honor group comprised primarily of other men. Stated as a masculine virtue: Honor is concern for one’s reputation for strength, courage and mastery within the context of an honor group comprised primarily of other men.—Pg 57 The Way of Men

  17. @KJ

    Seems like you’re watching me quite intensely. It’s getting *creepy*.

    Damn straight! I’m enjoying our sparring. You feeling creeped out just makes me lol.

  18. “Seems I’ve fallen behind.

    A commenter like Kill the Joy should only be a complement to your keyboard session, not the focus of it.

  19. Having read Goldmund’s latest article, I still render a ” Not Guilty ” verdict.

    I won’t even share any of my ” drunk fuck ” stories. Shit happens.

    But I’ve been thinking a lot about the OP and Goldmund’s piece and why I’m so adamant in my opinion. Self reflection and examination and all that.

    When I bounced in a strip club, I encountered lots of guys that would imprint on a dancer to stupid crazy levels in just a few hours. The club had a strict ” hands off ” policy that fell to me to enforce. So not wanting to have to eject guys who were only trying to have a good time and see some practically naked chicks, I’d gently remind guys when I saw them getting overheated, that the chick was working and she wasn’t going to go home with you and be your girlfriend. This was a constant thing. Sometimes it was the same few guys, over and over again.

    Saturday nights were completely off the fucking hook. The club was always filled to capacity, and I also had to keep a count of the patrons to ensure we didn’t go too far over the maximum capacity fire code thing. I also worked for the ” agency ” ( a guy name Armondo ) that supplied the dancers, and I picked them up and delivered them to the club, and drove them home afterwards. On Saturdays I had to make a few trips to gather the girls because Saturday was a Fully Loaded night.

    Dancers were 90% Brazilian, 10% Russian. Friday nights it was the reverse. Saturday averaged 10-15 dancers. There were quite a few of these…

    In the mix. My friends used to think working at a strip club was a dream job, but on Saturdays, I fucking earned my money.

    It’s always amazing to me how little a woman has to do to get some guys totally sprung.

    One night I’ll never forget, there was a regular there. He kinda looked like Richard Petty, dressed in all black all the time, with a black ” cowboy ” hat and shades. Sounds funny, but that shit actually worked for his build/frame. His favorite dancer was a blonde haired, blue eyed ” 9 ” named Thais. She would sit with him often when she was on a break. He was a gentleman and obeyed the rules, so I gave no fucks.

    This particular Saturday, Richard Petty stayed around until closing. I saw him talking to Thais, then he began yelling, then he grabbed her… then we had a conversation. Richard told me that he was upset at getting played, and that he wasn’t going to tolerate it. Unbeknownst to me, it seems Richard had dropped a thousand dollars, mostly on Thais, because she as much as said she was going home with him after closing. He wanted satisfaction: Pussy or his cash back. That was not going to happen at all. It’s like demanding your money back from Harrahs or some shit. Bet with your head….

    To make matters worse, Armondo showed up to help corral the girls and Richard was completely flipping out. Thing about Armondo is he had an interesting disposition. No bullshit tolerated at all. He was raised somewhere in the Amazon jungle or some shit, and he carried…. well, knife doesn’t describe it. It was more like a small machete. So Richard is yelling and waving his arms, he even took off his glasses. Armondo started pacing back and forth, inching ever closer to Richard. Armondo mumbled something in Portuguese that I only partially understood, but the fact that the dancers standing around us all started backing away slowly made things crystal clear.

    I pulled Richard out of the club, across the street into the parking lot. He wanted to fight, but I refused. I kept telling him to talk to me, yell at me, even take a swing if he wanted – but he wasn’t getting his money back. Armondo piled 10 chicks into his shitty minivan, leaving 5 girls with me. Richard poured his heart out to me for well over an hour. I made the girls stand by my car and wait the whole time. Finally Richard deflated. He looked beaten and spent. I told him that if he couldn’t play by the rules, he was banned. I told him to keep his cash in his pocket because NOBODY was EVER going to fuck him from the club. I thought this was stuff that was fairly understood. He shook my hand and left.

    I put the girls in my car and berated them all the way to their destinations. ” Watch what the fuck you say to the customers, because they believe you “. Thais translated.

    I got 500 bucks from the girls, 100 a piece. Lol. Plus 500 from ” the bar “. I had what Richard lost. Poor dude.

    What guys think in their heads about what they are owed or entitled to, just because they expended some cash and were nice and smiled, I understand the place that thinking comes from, but my field of fucks is barren.

    So drunken bathroom fucking or whatever, aussie boy can go kick fucking rocks. Some lessons are harsh as all fuck, but the hardness matches the hardness of the head learning said lesson.

  20. And I’ll be damned if Rugby’s reference to Jordan Peterson’s videos and his endorsement of The Trailer Park Boys on Netflix doesn’t really make sense.

    That shit is enjoyable.

  21. ASD,

    I played a college graduation party today. I’m a musician, I play bass guitar. I have a few different projects going, this was a 3 piece classic rock/blues joint I do with a couple other guys. Party was for a friend of guitarist/singer’s daughter. North Jersey suburbs.

    Man, several cute 22 yr old chicks there. Made eyes with a couple of them. Between sets, approached and talked, light convo, teasing. Only problem was the venue; these chicks had their little boyfriends there, parents lurking around, etc; so I moderated myself, because of the venue, plus I was working. Wouldn’t have been smart, so I respected the social limitations, like I’ve been hemming & hawing about here… I couldn’t even pull a # because these guys were all over them like hawks. So I let it go, took a flyer. Best course of action for this situation. There are plenty of other chicks out there.

    I’m 44, but I look 10 yrs younger. I’m in good shape, no wrinkles, full head of hair (salt & pepper, but I dye it my natural color black and it doesn’t look fake). And I play bass, on a stage. I can pull younger chicks; my youngest since I hit 40s was 23.

    I really don’t know specifically how you should’ve teased that chick you described. Generally, you keep it light, some playful negs. It’s really specific to the time, place, scenario you’re in, and you improvise. As long as you’re having fun with it, that’s the key. And as long as you’re pushing the envelope a little if it’s a girl you can pull. Your logistics are good, the scenarios is conducive, etc. That’s really all I can say, not being there in real time.

  22. We have all done stupid things. Most of us remember them with some regret. But chest thumping after being invited to a party and pulling your host’s friend’s girl for a fuck in the bathroom reveals a pathologically approbating attitude to what appears to be incontinence. Personally, if I am that thirsty, I would rather stick it into a prostitute.

  23. SJF,

    At what point are you going to cut the shit? ASD, Blax, and even Rollo have seemed to welcome me into the group to communicate on the level, and you continue with the attacks.

    WTF is your problem, man?

  24. @KJ

    You AMOG the boyfriends and parents as the cool, fun guy. You wait until the cockblockers (bf’s, parents, friends) have comfort with you before you pay any attention to the girls. You pull the nos. using plausible deniability so that no one is put off. E.g., maybe you will teach them bass or hook them up with a voice coach, etc. Hand them a business card. Sneaky fucker strategy. I’m just kj-ing…but I am really fucking smart when it comes to tactics.

  25. @ cheupez

    Disagree about the thirst level.

    When I was single, and wanted sex, if the opportunity presented itself in the lavatory, I’d most likely would’ve went for it. it’s not thirsty ime. Especially if a few stiff drinks were involved. It seems a lot of dissenters act like he banged the woman in full view of all of the guests or something.

    Opportunity and urgency makes shit happen. That’s a PUA standard.

  26. I have a hard time taking a decent dump in a public bathroom. But you guys are banging chicks in there. Maybe I really am BP.

  27. I must admit I am unwilling to confess how many times I screwed chicks in the club’s gents/ladies. (Hell, I even did one last week!) But I would not have done with the girl of a friend of the guy who invited me to a party. No. But that’s just me… In fact as I reflect more on this I smell lack of self confidence in the Gm fella. He is trying validate himself.

    Being invited to a party and knowingly going for the host’s friend’s girlfriend is a bit lame. But thumping your chest during and even after the deed also speaks to someone with some level of deprivation of good judgement. Is Gm a teenager?

  28. Only recourse for aussie bloke was to follow them into the bog and go full Bateman. Logistics of disposal may have been a bit tricky. Lot of cutting and flushing required.

  29. @ cheupez

    So, it’s all on Goldmund, and the chick is blameless?

    She was forced and coerced and dragged off against her will?

    Nah, hoes gonna hoe. Hoes are good for the environment. Eco friendly and biodegradable.

    Just don’t fucking try to date one and fly her anywhere. Aussie should’ve just taken her into a bathroom back in Australia.

  30. @cheupez

    Being invited to a party and knowingly going for the host’s friend’s girlfriend is a bit lame.

    Yeah, no sense enforcing your boundaries when the host’s friend calls you a “creepy fucker.” Totally right.

    And nowadays it’s perfectly Ok to claim property rights over women you aren’t banging. Again, totally right.

    Hell, if my friend who invited me to the party claimed property rights over some broad he isn’t banging, I’d go for her if I wanted. But that’s just me.

    There’s a fishy smell of the FI (like a diseased cunt) in a lot of these anti-Gm comments. And I’m not particularly a fan of Gm…have read one or two of his posts.

    But thumping your chest during and even after the deed also speaks to someone with some level of deprivation of good judgement.

    Ya think? Gm said he was drunk. But AussieBozo had it coming. He crossed boundaries first.

  31. The strip club world is a fucked up way to make a living

    The girls are fucked in the head

    The patron are fucked in the head

    Owning one makes you fucked in the head

    Bouncing in one will make you red pill or fucked in the head. It does give you the chance to bang strippers but once you’ve spent so,easy serious time around them the last thing you want to do with dancers is fuck them but if you want to bang strippers pick them up at the gym, rehab or be the guy slinging coke at them

  32. @ ASD

    Strippers that I was responsible for didn’t ” whore ” in the club. I babysat.

    But I have no real clue what a lot of them did with their down time. But the girls I knew were sending thousands of dollars back to family in Brazil. Same with the Russian girls. Shit, these chicks had thousand dollar phone bills monthly.

    Yet, I know that guys were offering money to bang, and I’m positive that a lot of dudes that offered 500 – 1,000 bucks probably got ass.

    Once I dropped them off at their homes, I could care less what they did.

    Ton is right about the coke, lol. I used to search each girls purse and panties like I worked for TSA. I did not want cops pulling me over with coke anywhere in my Car or near me. And I had to watch for ” dealers ” doing hand-to-hands with the girls inside the club.

    Yeah, it’s a safe bet that pay for play was more common than appearances let on.

  33. “So, it’s all on Goldmund, and the chick is blameless?”

    Both The Incubus and the Jovian are working from that axiom. Well, not blameless, but a very different order of blame, one in which the blame carries no sense of responsibility. The blame of a puppy caught chewing your slippers. Goldmund is the one who needs to be beat up, even though it takes two to tango, because he was the actor with agency.

    And perhaps that’s the way it ought to be, but it isn’t the way it was.

    The social rules of engagement were those that allowed the girl to be there in the first place, rather than forcefully shut up in some convent in Australia by the men to whom she legitimately belonged. Rules which accord her agency.

    KJ is accepting the rules that got her there in the first place and then suddenly shouting, “New rules!,” when under those new rules (old rules which accepting as applying now mean you are Blue Pill) Aussie guy would be due the respect owed to a scoundrel who had absconded with a whore who was not his. Not a party of ladies and gentlemen, but a den of the lowest thieves squabbling over the loot.

    “But AussieBozo had it coming. He crossed boundaries first.”

    Under both sets of rules. And he suffered consequences. One of the consequences though, if he can pull himself together enough to understand what happened to him, is that he now has a quarter of a chance to not end up with his brains spattered across the back of his garage.

    1. ASD,

      I only sat in the urinal because I thought the water running down my back would help me relax.


      “KJ is accepting the rules that got her there in the first place and then suddenly shouting, “New rules!,” when under those new rules (old rules which accepting as applying now mean you are Blue Pill) Aussie guy would be due the respect owed to a scoundrel who had absconded with a whore who was not his. Not a party of ladies and gentlemen, but a den of the lowest thieves squabbling over the loot.”


      I’m glad I stimulate your imagination so much…. When did I make this assertion?

      All I said was that the guy paid her way, he should’ve stood up for himself and actively imposed some ‘rules’ for in that situation, not passive-aggressively mumbled “predator!” and skulked in the corner. Yeah, maybe it’s ‘lame’, ‘BP’, whatever – but it’s better than doing nothing, IMO.

      Yeah – guy fucked up in the first place by bringing her out, professing undying love, being an super chode. But, you realize that your positioning on this entire subject gives the chick all the power to do as she likes, with no agency or responsibility. (Just like Jack wrote ’em in As Good As It Gts).

      Maybe that’s the dynamic in the natural ‘pre-civilized’ world, but us men built civilization, and it required the restraint of the wonton expression of female whims. (Maybe we can call these times the “post-civilized world.” I can’t wait until it looks like Planet of the Apes…… what was the hot mute chick’s name again? Nova?)

      BTW, I find the thesis put forth by some guys in the Manosphere (CH?) that the mass importation into Europe of Miidle Eastern & N. African Muslim men and the feminist’s support of it and acceptance of their ‘rape culture’ is a direct reaction to the emasculation and feminization of European men. These bitches WANT to be dominated, WANT a check put on the unrestrained expression of their Grrrl Power. I guess Sharia Law is effective in that regard. We shall see….

      Honestly, I’m getting tired of this whole subject now. Looking forward to the next one, so we can argue for 3 days and 850 comments on a new topic.

  34. What an awful story.

    The Australian chap had a covert contract going on there (he pays for girls holiday in return for love and sex from girl).

    I don’t know what the girl had said to him, but she was wrong to accept the offer of a free holiday. Knowing what I know about women which isn’t very much (I avoid women like this like the plague, which is most women), the girl probably made up some sob story about being stressed at work, or not having had a holiday and being so tired and ill, or whatever, knowing that he would probably offer some sort of support.

    She would have also known from the moment he offered (more likely before then otherwise she wouldn’t have bothered manipulating for a free holiday) that he had feelings for her that she did not reciprocate.

    My Sister used to behave in a similar way (much to my Mum’s disapproval, who would say “Don’t do this, men will expect things from you”. Clearly my Mum was bought up in a social climate where women who behaved like this were ostracised and shamed)

    One example, probably the first, I remember was when she was still 15, my family had a surprise early one morning (about 07:45), when a 23 old bloke turned up at the family home to offer my Sister a lift to school.

    None of this made my Sister a better person, and she got worse, not better.

    Ultimately though, it’s men that enable that sort of behaviour (if men called out that sort of manipulation for what is, women wouldn’t bother). There’s nothing wrong with being kind or charitable, but I think it’s very important who you offer your time, energy, and charity to, and it’s important for men to know this.

  35. “Clearly my Mum was bought up in a social climate where women who behaved like this were ostracised and shamed . . .”

    And thus didn’t understand she was telling your sister something she already knew all too well, your mother believing that your sister wouldn’t behave like that if she understood it.

    Rather than behaving like that because she did.

  36. @kfg

    I don’t disagree, my Sister knew exactly what she was doing, and she got more adept the more people she manipulated.

  37. Lol Blax, I did my stripper time and seen that shit from damn near every angle. Where ever there are biker’s or soldiers there are strippers. I had a boss who gave most of our mission warning order briefs for our training ops at this strip club famous for the ugliest strippers and cheapest beer. I think he had a stake in that joint but it was raunchy as hell and you could cut lose there. Occasionally the dancers would earn some sympathy money but I am pretty sure they made more money in tips from waitressing then dancing.

    I worked “security” in a semi famous strip club, got to know the owner and the stripping game pretty well. Probably tossed as many dancers out of the bar as we did patrons. Strippers are an easily replaced commodity, just like any woman. Patrons laying down serious money were much more valuable. Watched girls milk $1000’s out of suckers. Meet a few girls who had regular lives outside of partying but even they were damaged goods. Seen half nekkid chicks fight over tricks, blow and who knows what else.

    Watched the MC world kind of take over the strip club game. Mixed bag of results.

    I’ve been to a strip club as a patron maybe 5 times on my own accord. Bachelor party deals, pulled 3 strippers, and not by spending money on them. The rest of the strippers I have banged I meet in the gym, at MC parties and once at a breakfast joint in Surf City, basically the other side of Top Sail island. Once you know strippers you know what off duty dancers look like. Pulled into the parking lot with some of the boys, parked my bike illegally and rolled up to her and started chatting. I hadn’t shaved in like 2 years so I thought for sure she would shoot me down and me and the crew would be laughing about it over pancakes.

  38. “. . . I thought for sure she would shoot me down and me and the crew would be laughing about it over pancakes.”

    An entire tome on alpha mindset boiled down to its essence. Read it and learn, Boys.

  39. Regarding the girl in the story about the Assuie beta

    It’s likely she knew the Aussie beta wanted to bang her. And it’s likely she had no problems abusing his generosity for a vacation and it’s likely she had no plans on banging the Aussie chump or any other dude then along comes some dude who knows how to trip her triggers and she’s getting bent over in the bathroom, tottaly unaware of how it all went down….. “it just happened”

    Here’s the deal. In this life you are either a pimp, a ho or a trick.

    Pimps know life is a game and have mastered the game to some degree and are living life on their terms to the greatest extent their skill set, knowledge and balls allow.

    Ho’s know life is a game but are gaming for a pimp. Almost everyone is a ho to someone. If you pay taxes you are ho’ing for the government if nothing else so yes in the big picture you can have serious pimp game and still be just a ho

    Tricks are suckers who don’t understand they are being gamed every fucking moment of their waking life. Simps to be exploited.

    Assuie beta is a trick.

  40. And the prime dictum of pimps and ho’s is “Never smarten up a trick.”

    That’s why TRM is subversive. And that’s why Goldmund did the Aussie, who would likely never find his way to TRM and would have his sensibilities* offended if he did, a favor.**

    *In the universe outside of KJ’s head this means “finer feelings” and offend is a synonym for “hurt.”

    **An act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.

  41. ChunkyMonkey
    The Australian chap had a covert contract going on there (he pays for girls holiday in return for love and sex from girl).

    In his mind, yeah. In her mind, not so much. Very possibly a case of oneitis.
    Stuff like this happens. Buidling up a relationship in your head doesn’t work. Blax posted about the man who got oneitis for a stripper. There’s other versions – college man gets oneitis for a girl, she graduates and gets a job hundreds of miles away, so he packs up and goes to get a job in that city. Or college girl does “year abroad” in [foreign country], naturally winds up with a “boyfriend” there, then returns home. In her head she’s collected expereinces and now is done. He gets oneitis and buys an airplane ticket to her home town.

    A man who buys an airplane ticket across the Pacific based on what he feelz is setting himself up for disappointment at the very least. The only reason we are even talking about this is because Goldmund was so blatant about his pickup, if he’d been a bit more covert and spent the entire night with her 36 hours later nobody – except for the man who paid her way – would be so shocked.

    The real issue here in the modern sense is oneitis. Because under the older rules the only way that girl would have been traveling alone to a foreign country would be as a potential employee in service. A nurse or teacher traveling to a job that was already set up for her, with men prepared to chaperone her travels, something like that.

    In the modern FI dominated world, she got to eat her cake and have it too, because her oneitis-infected friend made it possible for her. He signed a contract in his head that she did not see.

  42. PS, sorry for all the typos, guys. I’m in a rush, wanted to bang that one out to give fresh meat for kfg, SJF, SFC, to jump down my throat today. And maybe mersonia will come out of the woodwork, too – who knows?

  43. Step one in being a man is stop playing the victim card. You tried to race card us for fucks sakes. No one here respects that bitch ass shit. No one gets the pussy pass around here

    #2 there is no justice in this life. If a man wants justice he has to make it for himself.

    If Aussie cuck wants his due from that bitch he should drop some flab, back on some muscle, shave his head, grow a beard, buy a Harely, lose a tooth in a bar fight, get some offensive ink, man the fuck up and go bang that chicks hottest frienemies. Her hotter littler sister and maybe her mom too.

    Hell Aussie cuck could show up here tomorrow and every brother here would help do just that but none of us are going to throw a pitty party for some simp

  44. SFC,

    Step #3 is GET A FUCKING SENSE OF HUMOR! Good christ, get the stick out of your ass, guy.

  45. Race card? kfg basically called me a ‘barbarian’ because I’m Sicilian. So I asked him if he would do the same if I were a Jew or Black – takes a little more balls to go after those ethnic groups so overtly.

  46. “…. When did I make this assertion?”

    With nearly every word you have written. You are about the only who does not understand what you have written means and how you fail to keep the boundaries clear between ought and is.

    That’s why men are “laughing” at you.

    For the record, I am not one of those men. I am, deliberately and with “malice” aforethought, poking you with a pointy stick. I can offer no excuses for offending your sensibilities. It is what I intended to do.

    I’m not here to engender good feelings about me. I’m here to smarten up tricks, knowing full well that they will wish to repay the kindness by knocking my teeth in. Same as it ever was.

    ” . . . a direct reaction to the emasculation and feminization of European men.”

    Civilization is inherently feminizing. Can’t have one without the other.

    “These bitches WANT to be dominated, WANT a check put on the unrestrained expression of their Grrrl Power.”

    When a group of Swedish men organized to protect their civilization (which is inherently about protecting women), Swedish women responded with, “We’re not your women.” Can’t get much more overt about it than that. One of the biggest problems they’re having in the “refugee” centers is that they can’t keep the female volunteers from fucking the “clients.”

    Are you, by any chance, labouring under the misapprehension that just because I have taken some issue with you that I disagree with you?

  47. good lord fellas, I step away from the computer for a couple of days and am excited about going over the comments… it’s like panning for gold, gotta go thru a whole bunch of dirt to find a nugget or two

    here’s what I get instead

  48. ….and to who wrote this “guy deserves to be treated with respect”

    …. from one of my all time faves:

  49. kfg,

    Not at all. I can tell you agree with me on a Meta level re. the socio issue.

    We’re talking in parallel, our minds aren’t meeting. I’m actually not sure right now how to steer my thoughts in your direction.

    My philosophy is to go always down swinging, because at least you made an effort, at least you went down in action, not passively. (As an analogy, I cringe when baseball players strike out looking, especially when their eyeballing borderline pitches. Swing the fking bat!)

    Regarding Aussie, I’ve been saying that all along. In that situation, the guy already put himself into a bad spot. So, at the least, he should’ve just bounced from the venue and cut off the girl from further time and resource vampirism for showing him up. That’s how I would’ve handled it.

    And if there was going to be a confrontation with G (which there was, albeit a very limp-wristed one), it should’ve been more overt, not passive-aggressive. Not necessarily fists, but an overt boundary drawn between men.

    Is this the “OUGHT” you keep hemming on about? “Ought” vs “Is”? I have no idea what you’re talking about; you keep saying the same thing and it makes no sense to me.

    I’m engaging in hypothetical thoughts here – isn’t that clear to you yet?

    I know what happened
    I know the guy is a chode.
    I know he’s BP as fuck.
    I know he got played.

    I get it.

    I’m making my argument from a ‘sociological’ position, for want of a better term. It’s just an argument, it’s just theoretical.

    You keep saying people are ‘laughing’ at me. For making a theoretical argument? For stating something theoretical? For playing with some ideas?

    You’re ‘poking me with a stick’? For what purpose? Your own gratification? To make yourself look good? I get it already, I don’t need to be poked. I f I were completely out in left field, then it would be appropriate to poke. But I’m in the dugout, with the rest of the team, playing with ideas.

    “He shouldn’t have thrown the changeup there, he should’ve thrown the breaking ball.”
    “The manager should’ve sent the runner.”
    “Shouldn’t have waived the runner home with 2 outs. Never make the 3rd out of an inning at home plate.”

    Theoretical ideas. Something going on on the field and we’re commenting on it. That’s all it is, kfg.

  50. “Every moment of everyday we are selling our brand, whether we know it or not.”

    Says the Ton, Tonishly.
    There really ought to be a page reserved just for his quotable quotes.


    And that 7.6 on the Richter scale you just felt was the world face palming in unison.

    “kfg basically called me a ‘barbarian’ because I’m Sicilian.”

    No. I was able to identify you as Sicilian from your empirically exhibited behavior. I noted that from a Western Civ point of view you would be considered a barbarian, and did so only because you expressed the idea that you wished to be part of Western Civ.

    If you wish to be part of Sicilian Civ, that’s cool, but note that Vox Day (whom you have expressed admiration for) would tell you that you have to go back to Sicily. That when the Moslems are driven out, you’re going with them, and that any objections you might put forward are simply expressions of the “What about ME?” logical fallacy.

    Because you are a Fake American who is only half civilized (although he would express it as you being half savage).

    You think Vox Day is a smart guy because you agree with his take on driving out the invaders, never realizing that he’s talking about YOU. Don’t believe me? Go ask him.

    And now that you have been told, you’ll have no excuse for being shocked and stunned when it happens. It won’t stop you, but you’ll have no excuse.

    The Yamoto considered all Europeans barbarians when they met them. The Europeans were confused, because the social structure of the Yamoto was nearly the inverse of the European, and yet in many ways they were more civilized than Europe. Yet the Han considered the Yamoto barbarians. My own ancestors, from the Roman point of view, were the very definition of barbarians, and yet a substantial part of the former Roman empire is now named after my father’s family, who drove out the Moors and founded Christendom. It’s possible that some ancestors on my mother’s side were present at Teutoburg Forest, kicking Roman teeth down their throats.

    Everyone is a barbarian to someone. Stop taking logical arguments personally as an offense to your sensibilities. That’s gamma bullshit. Vox Day ran a series at Alpha Game Plan on how to kill the inner gamma. Perhaps you should take a look at it.

  52. I’d like to modify it for Ton:

    “Every moment of every day, I’m smelling my own brand. And I enjoy it.”

  53. @KH: ” I’m actually not sure right now how to steer my thoughts in your direction.”

    That Red Pill you put in your mouth? Swallow it.

  54. @SFC Ton: “LOL I do a lot of shit for the lol’s KFG”

    At every moment of every day, life is trying to kill you. Sooner or later it will succeed.

    You can laugh about it or cry about it. You’ll enjoy the ride a lot more if you laugh about it.

  55. Wow, kfg, you really are a piece of work. Now I’m not “a part of Western Civilization” because I’m Sicilian?

    Last I checked, Sicily was part of Italy. Sicily was also a part of the Roman Empire, and a very important part, because of it’s location. The Roman Empire is the foundation of Western Civ; Rome civilized Europe. And, although they never subdued Germania, Roman influence couldn’t help but seep into Germanic culture, as well.

    You REALLY love the smell of your own brand, kfg. Maybe moreso than Ton, as you try to come off much more intellectually and highbrow.

  56. Is that right, anon? “Most?” Name a few. You obviously have a huge sample base to chose from. Let’s hear it, straight from the horses’ mouths.

  57. “Now I’m not “a part of Western Civilization” because I’m Sicilian?”

    Reading comprehension? Why are you asking me? I told you to ask Vox Day. We can add “message vs. messenger” confusion to your “ought vs. is” confusion.

    “Last I checked, Sicily was part of Italy.”

    Swallow the Red Pill and check again. Hint: Italy has been waging a genocidal war against the Austrian Tyrol for the last century.

    “Sicily was also a part of the Roman Empire, and a very important part, because of it’s location.”

    So was Palestine, which is why Rome fell. London is now Islam. Because they had an empire. You can ask Vox Day about how that works as well. It isn’t the subject here.

    “Maybe moreso than Ton, as you try to come off much more intellectually and highbrow.”

    The difference between Ton and myself is that he is a soldier and I am an intellectual. It’s just the way we’re wired. The difference between myself and an academic is that I live in the real world, so Ton and I have enough similarities that we can meet somewhere in the middle.

    We both know exactly where our rifles are and how to get them with what we’re carrying on body.

  58. “Most northern Italians don’t see a lot of difference between Sicily and Ethiopia.”

    Q.E.D. Although “to the left” they’re French rather than Austrian.

  59. “kfg, you’re crossing the line, guy. Check yourself.”

    Q.E.D. And according to SJF’s Dictum, I have explicitly declared my frame.

    You are free to deal with it exactly as you wish, between social structure equals, but you are not the Secret King who can order it away. You might wish to do what Vox Day did – establish your own Kingdom where you are the overt King by right, although it’s only fair to note that being a King has social consequences.

    Hence one of my own maxims:

    If a woman demands that she be treated like a princess – Do It!

  60. @anon

    Most northern Italians don’t see a lot of difference between Sicily and Ethiopia.

    Most Italians want to leave Italy, per my sister who lives there.

  61. @kj

    What if it wasn’t G but some random guy at the club that she smashed? You’re coming from a blue pill mindset.

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