The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

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Hamster Tamer
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Hamster Tamer

SOP..never put yourself in that situation, if you are, then hit on every other women in the place off and on..the hamster is ferocious and has to be kept in it’s cage.

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[…] The Utility of Beta Men – Part I […]

Agent P
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Agent P

Anger is the fruit of frustrated ambition……

SJF
Guest
SJF

“I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.” That was the best line ever. And it represents un-repentant masculinity. Which is a goal to move toward. (Also props for Rollo to admit and endorse Lesser Alpha mindset, with a greater Beta Frame. Which is a proposition that works in MRP with children without apologizing for un-repentant masculinity. Good job there, Rollo for the Frame.) Or did he do both him and her a favor? Yes. He certainly did her a favor. And hopefully he can wake the fuck up. I don’t think it is possible to wake up an unrepentant Blue… Read more »

Bill
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Bill

I’ve taken home a coworkers date right in front of him at a Christmas party . He tried to fight me. I was irresistible to the woman. She couldn’t stand him, but would do anything for me and we had just met.

A few years before that I have taken women to bars and have had men take them from me in the afformentioned exact fashion.

Sometimes you’re the player, sometimes you’re the pawn.

SFC Ton
Guest

I am my brothers keeper

I don’t own random dudes on the sidewalk what I owe my brothers.

Sentient
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Sentient

Juicy post…

Water Cannon Boy
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Water Cannon Boy

I’d help him, or try to, if he asked, if he brought up the subject, if he mentioned his confusion about some girl, or if he was seemed generally unhappy about aspects of his life. Because if you knew about a bait and switch retail situation, you’d probably be more than willing to advise a stranger on avoiding it.
But in trying to help some body blue pill, if they’re too much a jerk in their reaction, they
have to be on their own and get help from some body in their future.

theasdgamer
Guest

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men? If I don’t know the guy, no responsibility. If he’s in the friendzone, no responsibility. If she’s fucking my friend, it’s bros before hoes. I couldn’t help but burst out laughing. Well, I smiled and shook my head and thought that flying a girl you aren’t fucking to meet her was pathetic. I’m sure Mrs. Gamer would think likewise. Speaking of Mrs. Gamer…Mrs. Gamer asked me if I had any problem with her hiring a professional dancer to go dancing with her. I told her not to… Read more »

Logic
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Logic

I don’t comment a lot in this blog. However, I think it is important to make a comment that many will probably disagree with but is certainly true for me. If you ask someone what is the greatest benefit he gained by reading Rollo’s articles, I am sure that you will get various responses: “I finally got laid” “I managed to successfully spin plates” “I understood the true nature of women” “I stopped giving a f#@$ and focused on myself (and the women came after)” …etc I am sure that all of these are true, not the least reason being… Read more »

glimpsesfrommarcus
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Assume the win; take with confidence what is offered. Alphas don’t stand in line

Blaximus
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Blaximus

Growing up, the guys around me, we had a kind of code. You’d at least ask a guy if he was going to do something with a chick instead of bullshitting around and being unable to close the deal. But that deal didn’t extend too far outside of your immediate social circle, and it hardly ever extended to total strangers. I personally have a very, very strong dislike of orbiters. I don’t feel I have any kind of duty to help them, other than boning the object of their desire so that they’d wake up. I used to feel bad… Read more »

stuffinbox
Guest

“Listen, it happens to many of us. My nemesis was named Cyrus. I was too slow on the draw and he banged a chick I’d spent most of one summer lusting after, waiting for the perfect circumstances . As we used to say, ” If you’re slow, you blow “. But I didn’t get butthurt. I stepped it up because the competition was fierce. I was 15 at the time and that fucking lesson STUCK.” LOL we used to say “barber shop blues,you snooze you lose” meaning you missed your chance for some trim. At the hotsprings soaking my weary… Read more »

Elite Manhood
Guest

I get it and it’s true I feel the same way

Saracen III
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Saracen III

“What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?” My responsibility is to not bullshit them. Not to actively educate, mind you, to but leave their learning experience stark and plain. “Dude, she came with me!” “and when she wants to meet other men she will ask you again”. “Dude, she is my girlfriend!” “None of my business” “We have an agreement!” “Did you check with me first? No. Because agreements between you two are none of my business” “Dude, we are engaged!” “I respect that. And when she stops putting her hands inside my jacket… Read more »

BC
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BC

I think of this as just an advanced (more extreme) form of triage.
As Rollo has posted before, “save the ones you can, read last rites to the dying.”

In a case such as this, where the guy is so beta that he is simply not open the reason and/or persuasion, sometimes it is necessary to drive the knife in further and induce extreme pain before they will consider surgery and other medicine.

And if they still don’t get it, then they never will and are not a “bro”.

greenmantlehoyos
Guest

Right attitude about helping men. Sometimes a man is a fool because he’s a fool, sometimes he’s a fool because he no shit just doesn’t know. I took like a duck to water to the red pill, because as blue pill as I was, I knew in my heart that something was sideways I just didn’t have the words for it. The minute I was exposed, that’s the minute I knew what my instincts had been trying to tell me. There is no wisdom without humility. If you like “being right” more than the truth, then yeah helping a guy… Read more »

Johnycomelately
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Johnycomelately

What’s missing here is the sociology/sexual dominance hierarchy. Female sex is a scarce resource, men compete for resources and women are the arbiters of who reins in the dominance hierarchy. Women are literally socio/sexual status determinants. Male ultruism only occurs when there is no competition, otherwise it is co-operation among like standing individuals, domination or conflict. The beta (necessarily low on the dominance hierarchy) is trying to compete and gain sexual resources via exchanging goods (a trait of a low status male) and is literally signalling his low status. Goldmund’s behaviour was simply a biologically reflexive response to a low… Read more »

Boxcar
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Boxcar

It is not the main point of the essay, but I am glad that Rollo tries to, at least in passing, destigmatize beta qualities. Beta qualities are an essential part of what makes us men. How do I know? I had low testosterone until my mid-30’s. When I started to inject testosterone, that came with both Alpha and Beta qualities… Alpha — Large increase in muscle mass, confidence, social and leadership skills, plus some of that “mental point of origin” Beta — I became much more productive and capable. I also began to emotionally connect with women in the tender-hearted… Read more »

GW
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GW

@Logic Well Spoken! And I would add, the safety net works because RedPill is accurate. If Red Pill (the biological nature of men & women and insight obtainable from this) were not demonstrably true, then there would be no safety net. The safety net is part and parcel of Red Pill.

Alpha Jedi
Guest

Another great article, I look forward to seeing part two. I’ve done a few posts detailing some similar thoughts, and I think it’s important to look at things objectively. This is a necessary shock to the system for a Beta, but the Alpha side of the coin should be kept objective as well. Viewing it from the lens of Hypergamy, one competitor met the girl’s hypergamic needs of the moment while the other did not (if anyone wants to read my full thoughts on this you can read here: https://alphajedi.com/2017/05/27/know-they-enemy/). Now, as a seasoned Red Pill Alpha one can spot… Read more »

M3
Guest

It’s scary for much this post resonates with me.

Even tho I walked away from the sphere to concentrate on living life, I’ve always read every one of your articles since I have notifications set for your new posts.

Only you.

Keep up the good reads. This one was worth sending my regards on.

Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books For Cucks)
Guest
Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books For Cucks)

Hey kids there’s a song for it too!

Little BlackBook by Jimmy Dean from 1961:

https://youtu.be/9oQyNlYPNVU

Guy who gets dumped,pickswityna few more ideas himself.a new one before the sun goes down,

The wife HATES this song, cant stand it.

I’ll come back in part 2

cheupez
Guest

That was not necessary. There are billions of women out there to screw. Knowingly pulling such a move on a woman that some other guy has paid an international vacation for is unwise. Being taller and better looking than a guy is reason for you to hawl in a herd of bitches into the party for the crew, not to scrum for some scrawny fella’s bitch. Eesh!

Playdontpay
Guest
Playdontpay

Back in the late 90’s i was living in Miami partying and working to pay for it! At one point I was staying at a hotel/hostel frequented by backpackers from all over. I’d made friends with a 6ft 5 ageing alpha called John from Birmingham Uk he was around 40 at the time ( I’m from Liverpool Uk) . This guy had charm and charisma in spades but was living on the top floor of this hotel (the tropics on 15th and Collins on Miami Beach) in a residents room ( not yet refurbished to a standard suitable for a… Read more »

Morpheus
Guest

Logic, That’s a really great comment which resonates with me right now “However, if I may suggest an unpopular opinion, the greatest benefit that one gets from reading Rollo’s article is the fact that you are giving yourself a safety net. And the most important thing in my opinion is that you give yourself this safety net EVEN IF you don’t truly believe what Rollo writes. If I may elaborate briefly, by safety net I mean LITERALLY safety net. The safety net’s purpose is not for you not to fall. It is for you not to DIE after you have… Read more »

Morpheus
Guest

M3, hope all is well with you!

IAS
Guest
IAS

@Rollo: Goldmund did the guy a bigger favor by doing it overtly even if he wanted to spite the orbiter, than he would have if he had done it covertly and given the orbiter enough leeway to rationalize it away. Which to be fair, orbiter may still rationalize despite the 20 min spent in the bathroom and red face (e.g. “Maybe they were just making out”).

Morpheus
Guest

Being taller and better looking than a guy is reason for you to hawl in a herd of bitches into the party for the crew, not to scrum for some scrawny fella’s bitch. Eesh!

LOL, Massive Reading Comprehension FAIL. You clearly REVERSED which guy was “taller and better looking” from the original story.

~A
Guest
~A

Funny, this bought up a memory of a very similar situation I was in – I found Sosuave / Rationalmale and heartiste in ~2010 or so – I think the term “Red Pill” wasn’t even prevalent back then. Looking back, I was strongly Blue-pilled with very few Alpha tendencies at the time. During early stages of my “Red-pilling” process, I ended up accepting my at-the-time oneitis from my home-country to stay at my place for three summer months (I was studying abroad). Didn’t pay for the tickets, but I did allow her to stay, rent free, at my house, and… Read more »

Morpheus
Guest

The biggest favor a Red-Pill man can do to a Blue-Pill man? Fuck their oneitis, and send them pictures.

Yup, Blue-Pill conditioning isn’t something someone can be gradually persuaded of in bite size morsels over a long period of time. The only way is to be violently shaken disconnected out of it in some of the most viscerally disturbing ways possible. It isn’t an accident that most guys find the Red Pill after some extremely negative experience with women in their lives that starts the questioning process of what society has taught them.

Lost Patrol
Guest
Lost Patrol

Another great blast from the past post with current day applicability. They always strike me the same way because reading them sends me back in time to a dozen or more examples with me playing various key roles in the scenarios as described. Who can read these without replaying old movies of his life in his head? Sometimes I was a winner and sometimes the loser, but I’m definitely left with the impression that the women involved ended up getting things the way they wanted them by the time it was all over. The fact I remember it that way… Read more »

not-yet
Guest

You lost me when you began telling how you felt her up on the dance floor. If that is Alpha behavior, then it has a new definition. Alpha reigns and that starts with being a leader by being in control of the situations around you and that starts with you. This type of behavior is what is wrong with everything in the world today. And for to let you says volumes about her.

Morpheus
Guest

Not yet, everything you wrote is pure bullshit. In sociosexual terms, one of the key attributes of alphas is quick sexual escalation that women respond to. You are conflating alpha with the trait of restraint. Restraint may be good or bad in any given situation sexual or otherwise but it doesn’t have shit to do with alpha. If anything, it is beta to exercise restraint because it is often coming from weakness, fear, timidity, or misplaced white Knight notions

Johnycomelately
Guest
Johnycomelately

“Blue-Pill conditioning isn’t something someone can be gradually persuaded of in bite size morsels over a long period of time. The only way is to be violently shaken disconnected out of it in some of the most viscerally disturbing ways possible.”

Was talking to a good looking friend (25 years old) who revealed that he used to be insecure in the past (acne scars) and said he had problems cold approaching. I asked him his n count and he shamefully revealed it was in the 70s and paled in to consideration compared to his friends who were into the hundreds….

walawala
Guest
walawala

Recently, a girl I was banging and then escalated into a dom/sub bdsm relationship tried flipping the script on me. She spun this jealousy plotline with 2 friends of mine. To cut to the chase in this story, I banged her right up until her “break-up” meltdown by text to which responded: “k”. I went on a 3 week holiday and never reached out to her but she went out of her way to make me react to her jealousy ploys: photos of her and a guy, posts about ‘meeting some hot guy’ etc. She then stalked me at an… Read more »

stuffinbox
Guest

@Walawala Washington That is a good story with alot of meat,your”friend” was the “utility beta” in this case as she used him in an effort to manipulate you into the next phase of her relationship plan. This is to be expected of most women with a loose high value man,and also to be expected of a blue pill “friend” to step in and spill the beans. I would remind him that he got lucky because she was trying to manipulate you and although she planned to fuck him the whole time,it took two bottles of booze to lower her inhibitions… Read more »

SJB
Guest
SJB

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?

Not much more than pointing out the obvious: women have agency (albeit diminished); a woman can mate-guard herself. If she does not, you are not her mate.

IAS
Guest
IAS

@ ~A: thanks for writing that, interesting read.

walawala
Guest
walawala

@stuff. The fear of looking beta in my scenario motivated me to move fast to ghost and find social proof in the form of being seen with hotter girls. But to relate it to the topic…the motivation may have been different but the feeling I experienced was similar to the dude in the original post. In my case there was a bit of “how long was this going on!!?” But a few weeks back orbiter came out and crazy plate was out too at a bar event. Normally I ignore her. But I must confess I did keep an eye… Read more »

Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books For Cucks)
Guest
Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books For Cucks)

Hi again – or really high again. I did mean to post the Jimmy Dean link, it’s a fun listen, and OT. And the wife really does HATE it, it’s the Song of the Alpha. The rest of my graveyard shift reply? That’s when the Peruvian covfefe really began to kick in srsly. [Hic-CUP] That’s right boys and girls – don’t do drugs. Instead, give them ALL to Uncle Fred. Like I said, will add more when part 2 drops. I would expect this to resonate, I have my own story comprising another version of How I Got Cucked Into… Read more »

Rand
Guest
Rand

This story was my life right after college through my 20’s. Hell I was known as the guy to know to meet hot women with when out. For years I was in the dark. I found this site in January and I’m still unlearning a lot if set in bullshit. I’m concerned because was I took the 🇷d 💊I haven’t really aaprached women at all. I don’t want too. I wanted to be worried about it, but I am where I am. I’m not angry at women or going MGTOW, it’s more meh, uninspired. Does this behavior sound right or… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@ not yet Not all alphas are leaders of men, nor are they always in control of their environments or even their emotions. Mindset, not demographic and all that. Sometimes it’s not so easy to spot the alpha. There’s lots of posers and pretenders afoot. Alpha behavior isn’t part of the problems men face today, the problem is a lack of reasonable balance. Young naturally alpha males are being artificially snuffed out in grade school. The characteristics are being demonized. Those characteristics are inherent and form a base operating system for manhood. They vary in intensity by degrees. I see… Read more »

Playdontpay
Guest
Playdontpay

@ sjb ” a woman can mate-gaurd herself. If she does not, then she is not your mate”. Couldn’t have put it any better myself. Fortunately because of my size and also the way I look and carry myself I’ve never had to deal with a situation man on man like in the Op. I’ve had a few silly girls try and engineer the “lets you and him fight” scenario in my younger years but none of them ever stood up to the plate so it was all easy wins for me. I agree that any woman who is presenting… Read more »

stuffinbox
Guest

@Walawala Good move in moving on quick. this has always been an issue for me on plate theory before I got married I was doing this plate spinning lost track of N’s. The phenomenon was that each and every one would eventualy start playing these games with me that I took as a sign they wanted more in the relationship and I hated playing games with women. This was naive of me to even expect to find a woman that didn’t play games,to manipulate men. Sentient and Yareally have both given some good tips on setting a frame that is… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Guest
Kid Jupiter

Guess you really need to size up the Blue Pill dude and his allies before pulling a stunt like this, or at least be proficient at self-defense. Goldmund is lucky; a lot of guys I know & observe would’ve broken his crown, and their friends would’ve joined in the attack. Especially if Goldmund isn’t as physically large as them.

Still, good story, illustrative of a lot of the topics discussed here.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

“Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.”
This is the epicenter of the dance community.

thedeti
Guest

This is a great comment thread and I’m glad to see it.

If there is nothing else you ever take from the manosphere, take Logic’s “safety net” comment. You’ll fall. You’ll fail. You’ll catch feels. It will hurt. But you will be fine. You’ll be OK. It will work itself out in the fullness of time, if you put forth effort and take care of yourself.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

Johnycomelately
“He’ll simply do what low status males do, bitch and moan and feel depressed and anguish. ”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwsekxZodZ8
But do you not draw them in to a better way?

Roused
Guest
Roused

cheupez May 31, 2017 at 11:04 pm “That was not necessary. There are billions of women out there to screw. Knowingly pulling such a move on a woman that some other guy has paid an international vacation for is unwise. Being taller and better looking than a guy is reason for you to hawl in a herd of bitches into the party for the crew, not to scrum for some scrawny fella’s bitch. Eesh!” Why was it unwise? It’s been made clear from many men, myself included, that it takes a shitty event(s) as a catalyst to seek help. Based… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

Good thread, lots of good stories… Brings back a bunch of memories and observations with RP lenses on. First – the only way a guy is going to be in the right frame to absorb RP truth is through self discovery. Now some people can learn quickly via observation of others, some can learn through experience and some fight what they are seeing and never learn. But undoubtedly the shortest path to an accepting mode of understanding is through episodes like the OP. The more brutal and painful the better. So play on playas… all women are fair game –… Read more »

TuffLuv
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TuffLuv

@Logic Re: Safety net.. This is a point I’ve repeatedly made here on TRM.. totally agree.. I think the usefulness extracted for a particular individual from different aspects of Game and Frame wisdom depend entirely on the reality and phase of life of the individual.. There is high diversity among men of what their circumstances, goals, desires, and problems are. My life’s successes/failures with girls fall into the category of “guy who can get laid”, but definitely NOT “guy all the chicks want to bang”. Some people might get that impression, because I generally have a nice looking female with… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

@wala @stuff. The fear of looking beta in my scenario motivated me to move fast to ghost and find social proof in the form of being seen with hotter girls. If you have to use being seen with hot girls as social proof, then you haven’t got strong internals. Work on those internals, buddy. You’re gonna get tested, so plan for that and you won’t look beta when you bust the shit tests. I talk about the weather and other innocuous shit, but my nonverbal communication is golden. I don’t need to create emotional spikes in girls with clever wordplay–my… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

Tuff I have manners, street smarts, and diversity of experience incorporated into my identity, to the point I’m capable of associating with any person from any degree of affluence, from Royals right on down to street people. I have such great diversity of experience, that maintaining an air of ‘mystery’ when dealing with new people, is never a problem. I think being somewhat of an enigma is super important in ALL relationships. Me too… Very useful skills. If young dudes want to devlop these skills, work at a bunch of different places… I counted up once and worked at over… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

Tuff When a chick turns her nose up at me, I usually do not work very hard at all, because I’m well aware of the whole pussy-begging phenomenon, and I have no interest in it. So, you can see how someone in my situ does not have much use for the advice centered around closing the deal.. pushing through ASD.. LMR.. number of dates before the bang.. all the things that occur between the open and the bang. In general, if I open a chick it’s because she gave some IOI. And in general, if I get that far I’m… Read more »

theasdgamer
Guest

@Morpheus Not yet, everything you wrote is pure bullshit. In sociosexual terms, one of the key attributes of alphas is quick sexual escalation that women respond to. PDA sucks, man. Isolate before you do that shit. Sometimes being autistic is an advantage. Betas look for social proof from being able to escalate on a hot girl in public. It’s a trap. For preselection, you need girls to be lit up around you and no more. I really know my shit about this. NB: Lit Up…staring at you, face flushed, eyes bright with pupils dilated, smiling, laughing, giggling, working hard to… Read more »

dave
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dave

As a devil’s advocate, being beta is not always a bad thing. Soldiers need to take orders. Companies need to run smoothly. Not everyone can be fucking alpha. Nothing would ever get done. Bros need to look out for bros.

theasdgamer
Guest

@Morpheus

Glad to see that you’re moving on.

Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising

@Blaximus: Congratulations, your notch count is 6-7 pussies higher because you banged your friends’ girlfriends / wives / love interest. Kudos to you to also hang their panties on your car’s rearview mirror to rub it in your friends’ faces. You must be a real alpha.

Nobody knows whether your friends got the taste of Red Pill getting fucked over and insulted by you, and that if they changed their ways. But I am sure you taught them a lesson for sure – “that they can never trust any man ever – not even someone they consider a friend”.

IAS
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IAS

@Sentient: hey, it is Sentient’s origin story!

Sentient
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Sentient

Incubus

But I am sure you taught them a lesson for sure – “that they can never trust any man ever – not even someone they consider a friend”.

This is a very useful lesson. One you fail to heed at your own peril.

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When push comes to shove… and it will, in love, on the job, on the stump, in the boardroom… better to be the shover than the shovee…

Sentient
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Sentient

IAS – a few parts of it… I’ve posted much of this before I think.

theasdgamer
Guest

@Logic the greatest benefit that one gets from reading Rollo’s article is the fact that you are giving yourself a safety net. I built my own safety net long ago. Here’s the story. I had a gf in college for about 8 months. Saw her every day. She was really into me. I was a jerk and refused to apologize and she dumped me. Then I saw her walking with another guy where she knew I would be and I was in agony and groaned and bent over right in front of her. I was so humiliated. My ex-gf didn’t… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

On trust… Generally I follow the approach, with business, life etc… “If it can happen, it can happen” in other words, if there is a structural way for an event to take place, it might, hell it probably will, especially if one siude is benefitting from it… That little clause in that agreement? the one you think the otherside aren’t going to avail themsleves of… That big deal you close that you are sure the Boss is going to reward you for, even though doesn’t have to? yeah wait and see. This Golden Rule mentality is soil from which tall… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

However, going from an Alpha preconception to a brief “flash of Beta” is endearing and reinforcing for a woman.

Indeed… this I believe is the basis for creating a Ride or Die girl. Massive Alpha, then surprising, sometimes astonishing Beta and emotional availability…

Blaximus
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Blaximus

@ Incubus Lol. I’ll work on feeling remorse in a few years. Busy now. The friends I’ve kept lifelong can endure what you see as ‘ insults’. It’s part of what makes our friendships last over multiple decades. And you are semi correct. When I was a young man I tried to bang every girl I could get my hands on. I tried to fuck every girl in high school as well. That’s how I learned. But you are misguided if you think I tried to bang my friends actual girlfriends. Pining away in virtual obscurity does not entitle a… Read more »

Culum Struan
Guest
Culum Struan

Nowhere near the punch of many of the stories here, but even the story I posted in Field Reports a couple of months ago – about me stepping back from the girl I opened who was totally into me, and my wing taking her home – hit me pretty hard emotionally. It’s not so much that girl – I get laid enough and another one is no big deal. But just the way I stepped back voluntarily and my wing was totally oblivious to the sacrifice I made for him. I’m not doing that again. He’s my buddy, and if… Read more »

kfg
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kfg

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Sentient
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Sentient

CH’s best post on trust and mindset In sober moments free of maudlin introspection, you will understand there is no other game to play save this one. This is why to live as a man is to TAKE what you want. Not to wait for it to be given to you. Because it will never be given. Not to anticipate the empathy of the overseers. Because they will never empathize. Not to expect the coddling of the crowd. Because they will never coddle. Not to assume the wagon circling of kindreds. Because they will never circle for you. You got… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“No gym needed, no equipment needed (except a pullup bar . . .”

Find a used walker as well. If you’re patient you might find one free that the previous owner “doesn’t need any more.” Replace the wheels with crutch ends.

Dips.

TuffLuv
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TuffLuv

I hear you @Sentient.. and I didn’t mean to make it sound like rejection avoidance is my M.O. Admittedly it is to a degree, but part of that is just my phase of life. I’m really not on any mission to rack up notches.. in my world, it’s often more trouble than it’s worth.. But I do agree with you that I’m taking the easy out by only going for what I know I can get. I’m just fortunate that I have that 1 in 20 that makes it easy on me. I swear to you gentlemen, since the age… Read more »

Culum Struan
Guest
Culum Struan

@KFG – LOL. Now that’s a unique way to get started on dips.

Yes, it’s further along the progressions. I’m not strong enough to actually do dips yet, but I’ve been doing holds at the top of the dip movement to get used to it. Even a sturdy chair will do if you use the arms of the chair (I need to lift the legs up then of course, but that’s a core workout).

randbukoswki
Guest

@cheupez

From Goldmund’s Blog Post: “Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.”

theasdgamer
Guest

@Rollo

While occasional, strategic and brief expressions of a Beta-like trait are necessary for comfort, there is no advantage in a man trying to maintain some equilateral balance of Alpha to Beta, and if anything it only serves to confuse a woman about her estimate of your status.

…which leads us to infer that you need to be calibrating a woman because her nonverbal communication will tell you when she needs comfort (i.e., the expression of Beta traits). And so we arrive at a post about relationships that I wrote years ago.

theasdgamer
Guest

@Culum

I’m not strong enough to actually do dips yet

Use your legs to assist you as needed.

Sentient
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Sentient

Culum

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George is smiling (5’10” 175)…

Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising

@Blaximus: You haven’t fixed anything about me. I have been Red Pilled long before I knew that it was called Red Pill or there is a community of people with the same ideas. Again, how small is your dick that you have keep bragging that you bang everything you see, you what is your notch count. Everyman who has been Red Pilled over time will bang many women, which is the case with most of the commenters on this forum. I don’t expect remorse from people like you. Banging women your friends are interested is not the issue here. It… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

Incubus I thinik you are the one putting pussy on a pedestal, your comments suggest a scarcity mentality. Alphas welcome competition, even if they lose. Because girls are fungible. There was a post a while back at The Chateau about Errol Flynn and a story about him on a boat with David Niven and tossing Niven overboard and speeding away with his girl on the boat, presumably to bang… and the kommenters where overwhelmed with this dastardly move… But to Niven, treading water… a guy who could snap his fingers and have showgirl number 46 in a blink… I’m sure… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

https://therationalmale.com/2016/07/29/the-cardinal-rule-of-sexual-strategies/comment-page-5/#comment-165553

an old FR on intratribe competition in situ… everyone was OK at the end… lol

Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising

@Sentient: You know what is scarcity mentality? Fucking over your friends to bang their women and bragging to them after, tossing your friends overboard to get some pussy. Real power does not lie in fighting for pussy, it is having the courage to walk away from it, because you know that there is abundance of it. “Alphas welcome competition, even if they lose. Because girls are fungible.” – typical blue pilled PUA trash talk. Are we living in jungles in stone-age that we must fight other men, break their heads and steal their women for a quick bang? I started… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

Are we living in jungles in stone-age that we must fight other men, break their heads and steal their women for a quick bang?

Yes.

I think you are conflating the abundance mentality concept with WK’ing on behalf of your bros… if you can walk away from pussy so can your bros right? Unless they can’t compete…

Boxcar
Guest
Boxcar

@Rollo, what you say makes sense, particularly in the circumstances that men find themselves in today. Every man needs to have some degree of control over the direction of his life. Women likewise need the same. As feminists have argued, it is an intolerable condition, for women to always be one sexual encounter away from sending her life into a tailspin (through pregnancy). That same intolerable lack of control exists with respect to men, who are forced into the provisioning role, even against our will. If men’s provisioning had to be earned (ie, women actually depended on us), it would… Read more »

Incubus_Rising
Guest
Incubus_Rising

@Sentient: “think you are conflating the abundance mentality concept with WK’ing on behalf of your bros…” – I have never done anything “for” my bros or any other man, whatever I do is for me. There are times I have walked away from pussy, and it has always come back chasing after me and I have banged the hell out of it on my terms. And to make it clear, I am not a 21-year-old college kid going around night clubs hitting on girls in front of their boyfriends – all that RSDTyler stupid PUA shit is degrading and reeks… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient

I have been with enough women to know that all vaginas feel the same.

Wait what???

Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising

@Sentient: I have been on this forum for a while and I have seen you comment a lot on all the posts. And “Wait What??” is all you can come up with?

Blaximus
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Blaximus

@ Incubus Lol. Woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something? Ok. Let’s see here…. ” Again, how small is your dick that you have keep bragging that you bang everything you see, you what is your notch count. Everyman who has been Red Pilled over time will bang many women, which is the case with most of the commenters on this forum. ” Dick questions? Really? trust me, you don’t really want to know. Ditto the N-count. Neither of these are of any import here. ” I don’t expect remorse from people like you. Banging women… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus

” I have been with enough women to know that all vaginas feel the same. ”

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Blaximus
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Blaximus

…. oh dear. My gifs!!!!!

rugby11
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rugby11


anon
Guest
anon

“I have been with enough women to know that all vaginas feel the same.”

You might want to change your brand of condoms.

Blaximus
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Blaximus

Or get your penis examined asap.

Incubus_Rising
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Incubus_Rising

@Blaximus: Not a single straight answer to anything I said. And you say you are a long time commenter? Ha. Come up with better answers. And stop using women speak – “you are just angry”, “you can’t get laid”, “you’ve had women taken away from you”, “you are butthurt”.

“LMAO. Boy, you REALLY don’t know me at all. You MUST not have been following the comments here for very long.” – What’s there to know about a guy who has to hang panties on his rearview mirror anytime he gets a bang?

Yollo Comanche
Guest
Yollo Comanche

@Incubus

You either die a virgin, or live long enough to see yourself become Chad…..

“Why so serious?”

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