The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

1,116 comments

  1. SOP..never put yourself in that situation, if you are, then hit on every other women in the place off and on..the hamster is ferocious and has to be kept in it’s cage.

  2. “I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.”

    That was the best line ever. And it represents un-repentant masculinity. Which is a goal to move toward. (Also props for Rollo to admit and endorse Lesser Alpha mindset, with a greater Beta Frame. Which is a proposition that works in MRP with children without apologizing for un-repentant masculinity. Good job there, Rollo for the Frame.)

    Or did he do both him and her a favor?

    Yes. He certainly did her a favor. And hopefully he can wake the fuck up.

    I don’t think it is possible to wake up an unrepentant Blue Pill guy. Unless he leans towards being at the end of his rope and wants/needs/is open to Red Pill Awareness and as a by-product, then Game.

    I thank gods for my lucky stars that I had a red pill mentor, and I’m fortunate to have a few buddies that were Blue Pill indoctrinated that were able to see the light at the end of the tunnel via Red Pill awareness.

    The guys that see that light, and want to overcome their Blue Pill heritage are ripe for mentoring.
    And it can turn out great for the mentee.

    I can’t think of a more balanced proposition than Goldmund recommending that his buddy turn the Blue Pill guy to The Rational Male Awareness. What a great exemplar of how things are, rather than how they ought to be for the pretty little lies Blue Pill heretics of Red Pill.

    Game is amoral, not immoral. If you don’t acknowledge this it will be used against you, as women’s code is what is emotionally proper in a moment. Don’t hope to hold women to a standard of morality. Life’s too short to ponder the correctness of your heart and mind if you are up on the learning curve of red pill and game. Don’t lack Mastery and Know Thyself.

  3. I’ve taken home a coworkers date right in front of him at a Christmas party . He tried to fight me. I was irresistible to the woman. She couldn’t stand him, but would do anything for me and we had just met.

    A few years before that I have taken women to bars and have had men take them from me in the afformentioned exact fashion.

    Sometimes you’re the player, sometimes you’re the pawn.

  4. I’d help him, or try to, if he asked, if he brought up the subject, if he mentioned his confusion about some girl, or if he was seemed generally unhappy about aspects of his life. Because if you knew about a bait and switch retail situation, you’d probably be more than willing to advise a stranger on avoiding it.
    But in trying to help some body blue pill, if they’re too much a jerk in their reaction, they
    have to be on their own and get help from some body in their future.

  5. What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?

    If I don’t know the guy, no responsibility. If he’s in the friendzone, no responsibility. If she’s fucking my friend, it’s bros before hoes.

    I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

    Well, I smiled and shook my head and thought that flying a girl you aren’t fucking to meet her was pathetic. I’m sure Mrs. Gamer would think likewise.

    Speaking of Mrs. Gamer…Mrs. Gamer asked me if I had any problem with her hiring a professional dancer to go dancing with her. I told her not to put her hand on his butt like a broad did on mine Fri. night. Mrs. Gamer eventually told me that I had given her too much info and the subject of her hiring some dancer to go out with her fell by the wayside.

    So much for Mrs. Gamer’s Dread Game. lol

    I was trying to play online chess and Mrs. Gamer decided to “distract me” to “make me lose.” Just another shit test at the Gamer domicile. A grab for attention. Now to go spank her.

    lol

    I have my little fun episodes.

  6. I don’t comment a lot in this blog. However, I think it is important to make a comment that many will probably disagree with but is certainly true for me.

    If you ask someone what is the greatest benefit he gained by reading Rollo’s articles, I am sure that you will get various responses:

    “I finally got laid”

    “I managed to successfully spin plates”

    “I understood the true nature of women”

    “I stopped giving a f#@$ and focused on myself (and the women came after)”

    …etc

    I am sure that all of these are true, not the least reason being that I have experienced these benefits myself.

    However, if I may suggest an unpopular opinion, the greatest benefit that one gets from reading Rollo’s article is the fact that you are giving yourself a safety net. And the most important thing in my opinion is that you give yourself this safety net EVEN IF you don’t truly believe what Rollo writes.

    If I may elaborate briefly, by safety net I mean LITERALLY safety net. The safety net’s purpose is not for you not to fall. It is for you not to DIE after you have fallen. I believe this is an important distinction (and forgive me Rollo if you have touched on this in one of your articles already). At least for me this is HUGE.

    There is a nontrivial probability that you ARE going to fall. Unless you really swear to not EVER feel ANY emotional connection with a woman, then it is highly likely that at some point you WILL fall in love with a girl. Sure, I am positive that many guys will consider that this is something that they can control now that they are RP aware, but you MAY at some point fall in love and you WILL lose your “cool” (btw if you don’t want to call it love call it infatuation; there will be a girl whose combination of laughter, looks, mannerisms and personality will produce this to you; if you want to deny it go ahead and you may be right. But as I said this is just MY humble opinion).

    So where does the whole “safety net” come into play? Well, it comes into play when things go south. You WILL loose your cool and she might not notice but then again she also may notice. You will think that this girl is different. Again, it is easy to say that AWALT, but you are not dealing with a bunch of 1s and 0s. It is a human being, standing in front of you, with a personality, with a voice, with interests, opinions and the like. So your brain will tell you that THIS one is different.

    And when it turns out that she is not, and she goes cold or dumps you, or cheats on you, then my friend you are going to be JUST FINE. Because you have a safety net. I am not saying that you won’t be sad (you will) but you won’t try to throw yourself under a bridge. The safety net is placed there for a simple reason. The reason is that, in the beginning stages of your infatuation, before you started thinking that she is “not like that”, a little voice inside of you said “You have read about this situation in the RM brother. This may be an illusion. Be careful”.

    Yes, you muted that voice for a while, but you never killed it. And when the inevitable happened this little voice came back and said ” Oh well. We knew it. Nothing wrong with giving it a shot. Now let’s move on. Hey check out Little Miss Perkytits at the counter.”

    I know that many of you will laugh at this but, to me at least this is a big deal. I also think that the analogy of the safety net is pretty accurate. Even if all of Rollo’s writings hadn’t helped me AT ALL with getting laid, improving myself etc and THE ONLY benefit was gaining that safety net, I think that reading Rollo’s articles would have still bee very much worth it.

  7. Growing up, the guys around me, we had a kind of code. You’d at least ask a guy if he was going to do something with a chick instead of bullshitting around and being unable to close the deal. But that deal didn’t extend too far outside of your immediate social circle, and it hardly ever extended to total strangers.

    I personally have a very, very strong dislike of orbiters. I don’t feel I have any kind of duty to help them, other than boning the object of their desire so that they’d wake up.

    I used to feel bad for cats like that one in Goldmund’s tale. These cats don’t need anybody’s bad feelings or sympathy because it isn’t helpful. Maybe anger and frustration can coax them into action.

    I lost a friend in high school because I banged a chick he was in ‘ love ‘ with. But in my defense, because we were boys, I asked him if he was serious about the girl, and he said ” no “. So I told him I was going to bang the shit out of her at an upcoming party that weekend, and he said he did not care, but added that ” She’s not gonna do anything with you..”.

    So, that weekend at the party I zeroed in on this chick hard. Every slow song that played I dragged her out on the floor and molested her. Lol. By the end of the night, she was kissing my neck and breathing heavy. My boy was standing against the wall watching, but he was nodding and smiling. At the end of the festivities, I approached my boy to tell him I was leaving – the object of his desire standing behind me with her head against my back. That beautiful girl was banged senseless on a dark, dark country road that night. She was banged inside and outside of the car. Stripped totally nekid… lol. After we were spent, I turned on my headlights and had her stand in front of my car in the buff so I could really see what I was working with.

    The next morning I went to my boys house to pick him up and go play some basketball. We did that practically every Sunday morning. But this day he was sulking and acting angry. So I asked him what the problem was and he said ” nothing “. So I told him that I hoped he wasn’t mad about the girl because he was really going to be mad when he got in my car and saw her panties hanging from my rearview.

    We didn’t play ball that day. He was insinuating that he wanted to do me bodily harm. We were pretty much finished as friends that day. The last conversation we had was kind of ugly. It was in the student’s parking lot at school. I had a cheerleader pinned against my trunk and he walked by and said really loud, ” You gonna hang her panties from your mirror too?”, and before I could self censor, I replied something like ” She’s not wearing any, but if it will make you feel better you can smell my fingers later…”.

    We didn’t speak to each other after that.

    Looking back, I don’t feel I was wrong in any way. If I’d have avoided sex with willing girls because some other bonehead was fumbling around trying to get at her, off the top of my head .. there would’ve been at least 6 or 7 girls I wouldn’t have banged. And neither would the guys. Wasted pussy.

    Listen, it happens to many of us. My nemesis was named Cyrus. I was too slow on the draw and he banged a chick I’d spent most of one summer lusting after, waiting for the perfect circumstances . As we used to say, ” If you’re slow, you blow “. But I didn’t get butthurt. I stepped it up because the competition was fierce. I was 15 at the time and that fucking lesson STUCK.

    I didn’t want any guy’s ” help ” getting girls once I’ve started gaming her. If I fail, I fail. Live to fuck another day.

    How else is a beta guy supposed to learn?

  8. “Listen, it happens to many of us. My nemesis was named Cyrus. I was too slow on the draw and he banged a chick I’d spent most of one summer lusting after, waiting for the perfect circumstances . As we used to say, ” If you’re slow, you blow “. But I didn’t get butthurt. I stepped it up because the competition was fierce. I was 15 at the time and that fucking lesson STUCK.”

    LOL we used to say “barber shop blues,you snooze you lose” meaning you missed your chance for some trim.

    At the hotsprings soaking my weary bones,this 9+ in a black bikini comes in dry and IOIn. I kept a weather eye on that and she wasn’t alone. She comes into the hot pool and gives me a smile,this guy about thirties follows her and sits on her left sheese.

    Another old contractor and I are swapping war stories and blakini chick is rapt, and then she blurts out some self qualification stuff about being from a construction family. Things are going ok cept for her sulking boyfriend with the dirty looks so wtf,till she publicly disses the guy and says how useless he is around the house,I respond a total fn lie that he looks capable enough to me and the asshole thanks me in front of her.

    Hard to tell what to do till she tips her disrespectfull hand then I know if she was naked in my headlights I would proly call her stupid cuck ass boy friend and tell him to get her sorry 9+ ass out of the road.

    When I was a younger man I would have tapped that ass,kicked his ass if he had a problem with it,but then women even the cheating type back then at least had enough respect to lie about it now I’m not so sure.

    I guess if I take the guys side or tap that ass totally depends on the womans attitude meaning I am not hard up enough to break my own code of ethics for some shakey pudin,after all it is just a poke in the hairy end of a belly in some cases..

  9. “What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?”

    My responsibility is to not bullshit them.
    Not to actively educate, mind you, to but leave their learning experience stark and plain.

    “Dude, she came with me!”
    “and when she wants to meet other men she will ask you again”.

    “Dude, she is my girlfriend!”
    “None of my business”
    “We have an agreement!”
    “Did you check with me first? No. Because agreements between you two are none of my business”

    “Dude, we are engaged!”
    “I respect that. And when she stops putting her hands inside my jacket I shall take it seriously.”

    “Dude, I will fuck you up!”
    “Now is good for me”

    “Dude, you have no morals!”
    “Actually, I do. They are just not the same as yours.
    I don’t break up families. I don’t lie to kids. I don’t seduce married women.
    But making you attractive to ladies is not a part of them”

  10. I think of this as just an advanced (more extreme) form of triage.
    As Rollo has posted before, “save the ones you can, read last rites to the dying.”

    In a case such as this, where the guy is so beta that he is simply not open the reason and/or persuasion, sometimes it is necessary to drive the knife in further and induce extreme pain before they will consider surgery and other medicine.

    And if they still don’t get it, then they never will and are not a “bro”.

  11. Right attitude about helping men.

    Sometimes a man is a fool because he’s a fool, sometimes he’s a fool because he no shit just doesn’t know.

    I took like a duck to water to the red pill, because as blue pill as I was, I knew in my heart that something was sideways I just didn’t have the words for it. The minute I was exposed, that’s the minute I knew what my instincts had been trying to tell me.

    There is no wisdom without humility. If you like “being right” more than the truth, then yeah helping a guy like that isn’t going to work. But you’d be surprised how many guys out there are just waiting for the knowledge like I was. I’m grateful there were men who were speaking the truth and that I heard it.

  12. What’s missing here is the sociology/sexual dominance hierarchy.

    Female sex is a scarce resource, men compete for resources and women are the arbiters of who reins in the dominance hierarchy. Women are literally socio/sexual status determinants.

    Male ultruism only occurs when there is no competition, otherwise it is co-operation among like standing individuals, domination or conflict.

    The beta (necessarily low on the dominance hierarchy) is trying to compete and gain sexual resources via exchanging goods (a trait of a low status male) and is literally signalling his low status. Goldmund’s behaviour was simply a biologically reflexive response to a low status male challenging a higher status male.

    Coaching sport I’ve seen it all too often, artificially giving status to a low status male is recipe for disaster, giving the reigns to someone who can’t handle it simply doesn’t work. To the victor goes the spoils, it is a dominance hierarchy and it isn’t neccesarily fair.

    Our friend here was taught a valuable lesson (be better) but he won’t learn it. He’ll simply do what low status males do, bitch and moan and feel depressed and anguish. Can’t blame him, it’s simply the lot of a low status male.

    Darwinian pragmatism at its best, nature is amoral and doesn’t care.

  13. It is not the main point of the essay, but I am glad that Rollo tries to, at least in passing, destigmatize beta qualities. Beta qualities are an essential part of what makes us men. How do I know? I had low testosterone until my mid-30’s. When I started to inject testosterone, that came with both Alpha and Beta qualities…

    Alpha — Large increase in muscle mass, confidence, social and leadership skills, plus some of that “mental point of origin”

    Beta — I became much more productive and capable. I also began to emotionally connect with women in the tender-hearted way that leads a man to “oneitis.”

    Frankly, losing the “beta” qualities would make it difficult to live a happy, successful and fulfilling life. But they have become stigmatized because they are associated with men being used by women.

    It is largely a socio-political phenomenon, that our male providership is taken from us without our consent. Did your condom break with that sweet girl you just met? Congrats, you might have 18 years of child support in front of you. Did your wife cheat on you, then leave you to play the field? Congrats, you will also be paying child support until at least your child’s 18th birthday (yes, I know a guy who pays child support for “children” over 18). And in case you are inclined to follow your own moral compass, the penalty for noncompliance is prison.

    Men are going to predictably respond to this with a self-improvement approach — “Ok, I don’t want to be THAT GUY, so how can I become someone other than a beta loser?” For starters, “don’t get married and don’t have kids” are the obvious answers we hear over and over and over in TRP community. That is not an accident.

    Whereas women respond to their issues with a political movement (ie, feminism) — “How can society save and protect me from this bad stuff.”

    The male approach is more practical to the individual, but it also avoids necessary social and legal change. But until society begins to respect men’s freedom of choice and agency in their lives, “Beta” qualities will continue to be associated with men getting used and abused by women.

    As a guy who sees the value in Beta qualities, I think that is a real shame.

    [NB: I am not saying that Rollo should be starting a political movement, or that TRP knowledge would be unnecessary if we just changed a few laws.]

  14. @Logic Well Spoken! And I would add, the safety net works because RedPill is accurate. If Red Pill (the biological nature of men & women and insight obtainable from this) were not demonstrably true, then there would be no safety net. The safety net is part and parcel of Red Pill.

  15. Another great article, I look forward to seeing part two. I’ve done a few posts detailing some similar thoughts, and I think it’s important to look at things objectively. This is a necessary shock to the system for a Beta, but the Alpha side of the coin should be kept objective as well. Viewing it from the lens of Hypergamy, one competitor met the girl’s hypergamic needs of the moment while the other did not (if anyone wants to read my full thoughts on this you can read here: https://alphajedi.com/2017/05/27/know-they-enemy/). Now, as a seasoned Red Pill Alpha one can spot this like like Gouldmund did. But the interesting question that is raised is what do we owe as Red Pill aware men to Blue Bill men? I’ve been both guys in that scenario so this story really struck a cord from my own experiences. I’ve found with many Blue Pill guys the best route to go is to “lead them with a trail of bread crumbs” until they reach their own conclusion themselves. Too much truth up front is a shock and causes anger and rejection. To little can lead them to a state of depression or redoubling efforts to repeat the same cycle. But dropping little bits of Red Pill truth here and there to give hope and intrigue I’ve found works wonders. I do some work in the dating industry and it’s essential to do so in an industry built on Blue Pill principles.

  16. It’s scary for much this post resonates with me.

    Even tho I walked away from the sphere to concentrate on living life, I’ve always read every one of your articles since I have notifications set for your new posts.

    Only you.

    Keep up the good reads. This one was worth sending my regards on.

  17. Hey kids there’s a song for it too!

    Little BlackBook by Jimmy Dean from 1961:

    Guy who gets dumped,pickswityna few more ideas himself.a new one before the sun goes down,

    The wife HATES this song, cant stand it.

    I’ll come back in part 2

  18. That was not necessary. There are billions of women out there to screw. Knowingly pulling such a move on a woman that some other guy has paid an international vacation for is unwise. Being taller and better looking than a guy is reason for you to hawl in a herd of bitches into the party for the crew, not to scrum for some scrawny fella’s bitch. Eesh!

  19. Back in the late 90’s i was living in Miami partying and working to pay for it!
    At one point I was staying at a hotel/hostel frequented by backpackers from all over.

    I’d made friends with a 6ft 5 ageing alpha called John from Birmingham Uk he was around 40 at the time ( I’m from Liverpool Uk) . This guy had charm and charisma in spades but was living on the top floor of this hotel (the tropics on 15th and Collins on Miami Beach) in a residents room ( not yet refurbished to a standard suitable for a hotel so pretty crappy) but this guy had great game.

    The owner of the hotel/hostal (Swiss guy multi millionaire about johns age but definitely full blue pill beta) had invited this girl over from his hometown and was very excited for her arrival ( we drank with one of the front desk girls sometimes) he was telling her how classy and sophisticated this girl was and how she wasn’t like these Miami “party girls”.

    It was obvious he had a massive crush on this chick and he had funded her trip to Miami to come and see him even giving her the best room at the hotel even though he had a super luxury penthouse close by!! don’t wanna scare that classy chick with expectations of sex now do you mr multi millionaire??

    Anyway she arrived about 2pm on a weekend afternoon, me and John lazing by the pool with a few cold beers holding court with some newbie backpacker girls from can’t remember where. ( hotel owner guy out of town on business until that evening).

    Swiss chick ( about 28-30 and hb8) wastes no time in coming down from her room to the pool area in her bikini.
    John zeros in on her like the player he is, within 10 mins he has her play fighting in the pool and in less than an hour he is fucking her noisily in his room with the windows open for all to hear poolside!

    This chick publicly and noisily cucked mr multi millionaire hotel owner who I’m quite sure she knew had serious romantic intentions towards her for a loser guy who fitted storm panels and hurricane shutters from the back of his van when he was sober enough to actually make it to work!

    Hotel guy arrives that evening all smiles and unaware to take his prize to an upmarket Italian on ocean drive that we couldn’t afford to eat in even if we could have got a table (unlikely).

    If I remember correctly I think it took about 2 days before he found out his unicorn had been defiled by “loser John” that first afternoon she arrived. Apparently he flew into a beta rage and immediately checked her out of her room and arranged a flight home for her.

    Swiss unicorn refused to leave and moved into Johns shitty room for the rest of her stay where they fucked noisily to the amusement of all the guests and hotel staff that knew her story.

    Beta hotel guy got his revenge by throwing John out of his room at the end of his months rental period and banned him from the hotel/pool/bar.

    Me and John then got an apt share for a year and I’d like to say I learned a lot from this natural alpha but truth be told I ended up meeting a wealthy BPD Italian chick who was on vacation, ended up in Italy with her pregnant and married within 6 months followed by six years of beta backsliding before I’d had enough and took my balls back! So I mustn’t have learnt too much from Alpha John!

    The only good thing to come out of it is my 15 year old son who I travel to Italy ( no hardship tbh) to see 4/5 times a year.

    I’m trying from last year to start instilling some red pill ideas into him but I can see his FI programming runs deep even at this age. But I hold out some hope as last summer he dumped his girlfriend because ” she was always asking for presents and wanted to spend too much time with me” so maybe all is not lost, but I’m prepared for the possibility that he will need to have his blue pill heart stamped on before I can really make an impression.

  20. Logic,

    That’s a really great comment which resonates with me right now

    “However, if I may suggest an unpopular opinion, the greatest benefit that one gets from reading Rollo’s article is the fact that you are giving yourself a safety net. And the most important thing in my opinion is that you give yourself this safety net EVEN IF you don’t truly believe what Rollo writes.

    If I may elaborate briefly, by safety net I mean LITERALLY safety net. The safety net’s purpose is not for you not to fall. It is for you not to DIE after you have fallen. I believe this is an important distinction (and forgive me Rollo if you have touched on this in one of your articles already). At least for me this is HUGE.

    ……

    And when it turns out that she is not, and she goes cold or dumps you, or cheats on you, then my friend you are going to be JUST FINE. Because you have a safety net. I am not saying that you won’t be sad (you will) but you won’t try to throw yourself under a bridge. The safety net is placed there for a simple reason. The reason is that, in the beginning stages of your infatuation, before you started thinking that she is “not like that”, a little voice inside of you said “You have read about this situation in the RM brother. This may be an illusion. Be careful”.

    Yes, you muted that voice for a while, but you never killed it. And when the inevitable happened this little voice came back and said ” Oh well. We knew it. Nothing wrong with giving it a shot. Now let’s move on. Hey check out Little Miss Perkytits at the counter.”

    Exactly right. All of it!

    My 2nd marriage recently ended (about 6 weeks ago my wife left me and informed me she was filing for divorce) and to be honest I’ve sort of surprised myself just how emotionally unaffected I’ve been compared to my first marriage ending (which was before Red Pill, Rollo, and Rational Male). I’ve actually had multiple people comment incredulously at just how well I am doing. I’ve recommitted to a much more intense and frequent workout regimen, and am down about 20 pounds in those 6 weeks.

    I credit my Red Pill perspective for enabling me to stay relatively stoic about it all, and refocus on something positive. I think it helps that I realize I haven’t lost my “Soulmate” because that is bullshit to begin with, and that women are fungible at least partly. Don’t get me wrong, I really do feel like I lost by best friend and have times of sadness. It certainly helps to realize that “Little Miss Perktits/Tight Ass/Tighter Wetter Pussy” is out there, and I’ll be fucking her soon enough.

    I’d add that my Red Pill perspective also clues me in to what awaits my soon to be ex-wife who is 43 going on 53 in terms of her menopausal stage and very overweight (we started dating when she was 32 with the body of a fitness model). Schadenfreude is probably the wrong term since I don’t actively wish her a horrible experience in the SMP, but I do know she is in for a very rude awakening once she tests the dating waters.

    But yeah, you are absolutely right. The fact of the matter is many “Red Pill” guys are going to form strong emotional bonds with women, and it will hurt when those bonds are severed unless you are a psychopath who doesn’t feel emotions like love, affection, etc. But the most powerful thing about the Red Pill perspective is knowing you will be JUST FINE and that truly the world is filled with other female options.

  21. @Rollo: Goldmund did the guy a bigger favor by doing it overtly even if he wanted to spite the orbiter, than he would have if he had done it covertly and given the orbiter enough leeway to rationalize it away. Which to be fair, orbiter may still rationalize despite the 20 min spent in the bathroom and red face (e.g. “Maybe they were just making out”).

  22. Being taller and better looking than a guy is reason for you to hawl in a herd of bitches into the party for the crew, not to scrum for some scrawny fella’s bitch. Eesh!

    LOL, Massive Reading Comprehension FAIL. You clearly REVERSED which guy was “taller and better looking” from the original story.

  23. Funny, this bought up a memory of a very similar situation I was in – I found Sosuave / Rationalmale and heartiste in ~2010 or so – I think the term “Red Pill” wasn’t even prevalent back then. Looking back, I was strongly Blue-pilled with very few Alpha tendencies at the time. During early stages of my “Red-pilling” process, I ended up accepting my at-the-time oneitis from my home-country to stay at my place for three summer months (I was studying abroad).

    Didn’t pay for the tickets, but I did allow her to stay, rent free, at my house, and spend stupid amount of time helping to find her summer job, take her around places, introduce to all my friends etc.

    I realize now that I had, at the time, what Rollo has defined as “Children with dynamite” mentality – hoping that my new found Red Pill awareness would allow me to woo and charm the past romantic interest at heart and show her how great I became. Now, I have indeed grown from that kid she knew when I “professed my feelings” to a semi-popular guy at a sports team, with a lot of genuine alphas as my friends and team-mates, but that was, of course, not enough.

    After getting shot down twice, I realized I will have to spend anther two months with this girl living under my roof. She wasn’t interested in me “that way” at all. When one of my alpha buddies asked me if I’m with the girl, after a short hesitation I smiled and told him to go for it. I didn’t cry myself to sleep, but I think I felt quite heavy at that time.

    Therein, he soon gave me a first-hand experience of women’s duplicity and sexuality, on my one-itis no less!

    It took him what, one chat during a party, and one “cinema date” ? She’d seldom stay over at his place for a couple of weeks, and me, still being naive, believed her when she said they never had sex, although my gut feeling was saying that wasn’t true.
    When my buddy confirmed my suspicions, it hit me like a back of bricks (not the sleeping part, but the lying in your face from someone I thought was my childhood friend).

    And herein lies the rub – if not for my alpha buddy, I’d probably have spent a lot more time trying to come to terms with what the red pill is about. The guy did me a favor – after all, I was the one who told to go for it, and he was very polite to ask me first, and was genuinely good guy who helped me out on quite a few occasions.

    I believe I remember this vividly, since this was the breaking point for me. It was easy for me to believe that what we now commonly define as Red Pill, was true, right from the start, but it was hard to overcome my emotions and previous programming (sort of – yup, that’s right, and I should do that, but when the time comes I switch back to ol’ ways). I needed for someone to break these illusions for me, because there was always that gnawing blue pill hope/doubt that would force me to default to sub-optimal actions.

    I wondered if I should write this next part, but I think this would serve as a good illustration of how quickly these sort of “catalyst” events can work out in ones transition to a red-pill world; Now mind you – I was already digesting the pill, and had internalized a lot of theory at that time, so one could say that I was “primed” for the switch, I just needed a little push.

    As she found herself another interest, I did what anyone else with a shattered ego would do – get angry, read more PUA tricks, give her less attention, do my best to cultivate ZFG attitude. It wasn’t a radical change, more of a subtle one, – I was still helpful on the outside and took care of her (she was sort of my responsibility, at the time), took her to parties with me and so on, but I’ve stopped going out of my way so much, she just… stopped being a focus of my daily life.

    As the parties were daily occurrence, often the same big social circle, my alpha buddy would spend his time with her there, and I’d be free to do whatever stupid antics I wanted with my friends. I stopped tracking her movement with the corner of my eye, and honestly, felt somewhat relieved. She bought her new friend from work, and this new girl started fancying me. It all culminated with my one-itis barging into my room at 4AM after one of the parties, tears in her eyes and mascara running down her face, babbling something incoherent about how she is glad I’m home.

    I’d have left the party earlier together with this another girl, just to walk her home since she lived next door to my place, and she was just. Bless my alpha buddy, as when he was inquiring if I knew why she left in such a hurry, he dropped this nugget:

    “Oh yeah, she asked if I’d seen where you were. I told her you probably picked up some chick and went to her place.”

    I never realized, but I had social status. I had put on muscle. I dressed well (thanks to one of my female friends who had impeccable clothing taste). I had a reasonable number of girls give me IOI’s I’d ignore. Without myself knowing it, I even had pre-selection!

    The only reason why I was failing so much (in general, with girls), was nothing else but my blue-pill inner self that constantly sabotaged me. That was probably the most important piece that I was refusing to change about myself, clinging to the blue-pill idealizations for so much time, and yet when my frame started to shift, it opened the doors I never though were possible!

    The rest of the summer was such a difference.
    My one-itis ceased her “relationship” with my buddy – although that’s likely more due to different reasons than me, and more to do with uncomfortable situation of her flipping out into hysterics and running out of his house at 4AM.
    There was a moment when we were alone slightly drunk, and she was looking me in the eyes talking about us kissing (didn’t have the balls to make a move, which was likely a blessing in disguise – I was nowhere near emotionally ready.)
    There was a moment where I was laying in bed and observing the very same ONE-ITIS OF 5+ years and her single-mom girlfriend, in the same bed as I, wearing just their underwear and titty boxing each other.
    But most of all, I was free of the one-itis curse. She ceased being that special. I ceased to look at women as something special – it is one thing to read about this, and very different to see it with your very own eyes.

    I’d love to say that I became uber-alpha in the few weeks, but it took me better part of next three years to get where I would be very comfortable with women. I did quite a lot of mistakes on the way, relapsed to my blue-pill tendencies a few times, and I still have ways to go. Nevertheless, if my friend hadn’t banged my one-itis, I doubt it I’d be where I am right now.

    The biggest favor a Red-Pill man can do to a Blue-Pill man? Fuck their oneitis, and send them pictures.

  24. The biggest favor a Red-Pill man can do to a Blue-Pill man? Fuck their oneitis, and send them pictures.

    Yup, Blue-Pill conditioning isn’t something someone can be gradually persuaded of in bite size morsels over a long period of time. The only way is to be violently shaken disconnected out of it in some of the most viscerally disturbing ways possible. It isn’t an accident that most guys find the Red Pill after some extremely negative experience with women in their lives that starts the questioning process of what society has taught them.

  25. Another great blast from the past post with current day applicability. They always strike me the same way because reading them sends me back in time to a dozen or more examples with me playing various key roles in the scenarios as described. Who can read these without replaying old movies of his life in his head?

    Sometimes I was a winner and sometimes the loser, but I’m definitely left with the impression that the women involved ended up getting things the way they wanted them by the time it was all over. The fact I remember it that way probably means something but I can’t figure out what.

    I like that quick take and review on the abstract terminology, effectively representing different levels on a spectrum of ignorance and preconditioning. A man can move into and out of these, advance or backslide, or even be two or more of these things simultaneously. It’s a process so just keep moving along at your best pace. Stasis is the enemy.

  26. You lost me when you began telling how you felt her up on the dance floor. If that is Alpha behavior, then it has a new definition. Alpha reigns and that starts with being a leader by being in control of the situations around you and that starts with you. This type of behavior is what is wrong with everything in the world today. And for to let you says volumes about her.

  27. Not yet, everything you wrote is pure bullshit. In sociosexual terms, one of the key attributes of alphas is quick sexual escalation that women respond to. You are conflating alpha with the trait of restraint. Restraint may be good or bad in any given situation sexual or otherwise but it doesn’t have shit to do with alpha. If anything, it is beta to exercise restraint because it is often coming from weakness, fear, timidity, or misplaced white Knight notions

  28. “Blue-Pill conditioning isn’t something someone can be gradually persuaded of in bite size morsels over a long period of time. The only way is to be violently shaken disconnected out of it in some of the most viscerally disturbing ways possible.”

    Was talking to a good looking friend (25 years old) who revealed that he used to be insecure in the past (acne scars) and said he had problems cold approaching. I asked him his n count and he shamefully revealed it was in the 70s and paled in to consideration compared to his friends who were into the hundreds….

  29. Recently, a girl I was banging and then escalated into a dom/sub bdsm relationship tried flipping the script on me.

    She spun this jealousy plotline with 2 friends of mine. To cut to the chase in this story, I banged her right up until her “break-up” meltdown by text to which responded: “k”.

    I went on a 3 week holiday and never reached out to her but she went out of her way to make me react to her jealousy ploys: photos of her and a guy, posts about ‘meeting some hot guy’ etc.

    She then stalked me at an event I was at by showing up and giving the manager of the venue a box which turned out to be the various Christmas gifts and stuff I had bought her.

    When the manager showed me the box I said “Open it”. A few of us stood around like it was Al Capone’s vault. One of her orbiters who was a sort of “Friend” of mine was hanging around.

    After opening the box up and revealing its contents and weird letter, the orbiter blurted out to me that he had taken her to an expensive dinner, bought her a couple of bottle of wines, she got sloppy drunk and threw himself at her.

    Now… bear in mind I had ghosted the girl and had banged her before that meltdown. I had basically gotten everything I could out of that shitty relationship and was moving on.

    But it pissed me off that the orbiter had made a move and she had thrown herself at him.

    She did it clearly out of desperation and possibly because she knew orbiter couldn’t keep his mouth shut.

    Still as a Red Pill guy I was pissed off at her…who I’ve continued to ghost now for 5 months and him who I told to fuck off for being a duplicitous piece of shit.

    So, the moral of this story is that guys will always try to AMOG you but it’s all about what the relationship dynamic is or was.

    In the original post, the dude paid for the girl to come over and she banged some random dude on a night out.

    It’s not a great feeling. But in my case I just focused on banging other girls and have brought girls out and crazy plate has been out. It feels good knowing her hamster is in over-drive.

    But nothing beats walking away from a girl like that.

    The original post is about two things: the tragi-comic orbiter and the hypergamous woman.

  30. @Walawala Washington

    That is a good story with alot of meat,your”friend” was the “utility beta” in this case as she used him in an effort to manipulate you into the next phase of her relationship plan.

    This is to be expected of most women with a loose high value man,and also to be expected of a blue pill “friend” to step in and spill the beans.

    I would remind him that he got lucky because she was trying to manipulate you and although she planned to fuck him the whole time,it took two bottles of booze to lower her inhibitions enough to give it to his beta ass,she tooled him to try and get to you and had to be drunk to do it.

  31. What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?

    Not much more than pointing out the obvious: women have agency (albeit diminished); a woman can mate-guard herself. If she does not, you are not her mate.

  32. @stuff. The fear of looking beta in my scenario motivated me to move fast to ghost and find social proof in the form of being seen with hotter girls.

    But to relate it to the topic…the motivation may have been different but the feeling I experienced was similar to the dude in the original post.

    In my case there was a bit of “how long was this going on!!?”

    But a few weeks back orbiter came out and crazy plate was out too at a bar event.

    Normally I ignore her. But I must confess I did keep an eye on him.

    She deliberately hovered around him. He glanced nervously in my direction and ignored her.

    So…he learned his lesson: lost a friend and the girl became radioactive.

    A hollow victory for me. But a good Learning on leaving sooner when things smell bad.

  33. Hi again – or really high again. I did mean to post the Jimmy Dean link, it’s a fun listen, and OT. And the wife really does HATE it, it’s the Song of the Alpha. The rest of my graveyard shift reply? That’s when the Peruvian covfefe really began to kick in srsly. [Hic-CUP]

    That’s right boys and girls – don’t do drugs. Instead, give them ALL to Uncle Fred.

    Like I said, will add more when part 2 drops. I would expect this to resonate, I have my own story comprising another version of How I Got Cucked Into Enlightenment, the high hard way.
    Learning lots from all of you.

  34. This story was my life right after college through my 20’s. Hell I was known as the guy to know to meet hot women with when out. For years I was in the dark. I found this site in January and I’m still unlearning a lot if set in bullshit. I’m concerned because was I took the 🇷d 💊I haven’t really aaprached women at all. I don’t want too. I wanted to be worried about it, but I am where I am. I’m not angry at women or going MGTOW, it’s more meh, uninspired.

    Does this behavior sound right or on track. I feel like damn should I be worried? I’ve made quite a few changes the past 6 months while reading thru the archives. I do have a big change coming up, quitting my job after 11 years and going back to school fulltime. I’ll be living on campus, maybe that change up is what I need.

    For the first time in a long while.. I’m comfortable. I’m sure there’s more to unlearn and learn.

  35. @ not yet

    Not all alphas are leaders of men, nor are they always in control of their environments or even their emotions. Mindset, not demographic and all that.

    Sometimes it’s not so easy to spot the alpha. There’s lots of posers and pretenders afoot.

    Alpha behavior isn’t part of the problems men face today, the problem is a lack of reasonable balance. Young naturally alpha males are being artificially snuffed out in grade school. The characteristics are being demonized. Those characteristics are inherent and form a base operating system for manhood. They vary in intensity by degrees.

    I see a lot of reference in the sphere pointing to the extremes when alpha is discussed. Seems like only the harshest interpretations of alpha are recognized. This is why so many men struggle when they try to develop alpha characteristics, because they try to morph themselves into raging idiot psychopaths.

    Alpha is many things at different stages of life, or it should be.

  36. @ sjb
    ” a woman can mate-gaurd herself. If she does not, then she is not your mate”.

    Couldn’t have put it any better myself.

    Fortunately because of my size and also the way I look and carry myself I’ve never had to deal with a situation man on man like in the Op.
    I’ve had a few silly girls try and engineer the “lets you and him fight” scenario in my younger years but none of them ever stood up to the plate so it was all easy wins for me.

    I agree that any woman who is presenting herself as a “quality woman” needs to take care of the mate guarding dynamic herself, unless she is being hounded by an idiot who won’t take No! for an answer in which case then and only then I’ll take care of the situation myself.

    If she doesn’t handle run of the mill mate gaurding situations herself, then that’s a high drama red flag and like you say she’s indicated that she’s not my mate and I find that disrespectful so a definite NEXT.

  37. @Walawala

    Good move in moving on quick.

    this has always been an issue for me on plate theory before I got married I was doing this plate spinning lost track of N’s. The phenomenon was that each and every one would eventualy start playing these games with me that I took as a sign they wanted more in the relationship and I hated playing games with women.

    This was naive of me to even expect to find a woman that didn’t play games,to manipulate men.

    Sentient and Yareally have both given some good tips on setting a frame that is less likely to lead to this BS.

    Goldmund hooked up with a girl from out of town,on a sort of vacation and looking for a good time that was stuck with a simp,perfect scene for non comitment fun. This doesn’t come around every day.

  38. Guess you really need to size up the Blue Pill dude and his allies before pulling a stunt like this, or at least be proficient at self-defense. Goldmund is lucky; a lot of guys I know & observe would’ve broken his crown, and their friends would’ve joined in the attack. Especially if Goldmund isn’t as physically large as them.

    Still, good story, illustrative of a lot of the topics discussed here.

  39. “Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.”
    This is the epicenter of the dance community.

  40. This is a great comment thread and I’m glad to see it.

    If there is nothing else you ever take from the manosphere, take Logic’s “safety net” comment. You’ll fall. You’ll fail. You’ll catch feels. It will hurt. But you will be fine. You’ll be OK. It will work itself out in the fullness of time, if you put forth effort and take care of yourself.

  41. Johnycomelately
    “He’ll simply do what low status males do, bitch and moan and feel depressed and anguish. ”

    But do you not draw them in to a better way?

  42. cheupez
    May 31, 2017 at 11:04 pm
    “That was not necessary. There are billions of women out there to screw. Knowingly pulling such a move on a woman that some other guy has paid an international vacation for is unwise. Being taller and better looking than a guy is reason for you to hawl in a herd of bitches into the party for the crew, not to scrum for some scrawny fella’s bitch. Eesh!”

    Why was it unwise?

    It’s been made clear from many men, myself included, that it takes a shitty event(s) as a catalyst to seek help. Based on what we all read it would seem Goldmund did the guy a favor. What reason would he change his behavior if his date hadn’t been banged by another guy? The beta needed it thrown in his face, otherwise he will just continue with his behavior.

    Seeing your date or woman act really shitty provides great learning experiences. I should know.

  43. Good thread, lots of good stories… Brings back a bunch of memories and observations with RP lenses on.

    First – the only way a guy is going to be in the right frame to absorb RP truth is through self discovery. Now some people can learn quickly via observation of others, some can learn through experience and some fight what they are seeing and never learn.

    But undoubtedly the shortest path to an accepting mode of understanding is through episodes like the OP. The more brutal and painful the better. So play on playas… all women are fair game – it is up to them to draw the boundaries – don’t ever think that you are doing some guy a favor from backing off… You are giving him an advantage he will never give you when push comes to shove.

    For me… a few things stand out. IN 10th grade I guess, I was enamored of this long curly haired blonde with painted on jeans, hoop earings and penchent for clomping through the hall with those candies high heel clog things that were popular in the 80s… Total gum snapper rocker chick from a WC neighborhood. Now I was quetly observant of her, her schedule, her locker… found ways to glide by her class (I was always roaming the halls during class time it seems) and look at her, catch her eye. But too shy yet to approach. needless to say this pattern allowed me to build up an idealized version of her in my mind, even though we never said more then hey to each other for a month or so.

    Then my buddy’s GF – a 19YO drop out with a stripper body and her own place, which he tormented as a 10th grader lol – said hey let’s all go out this Friday, Candies Girl wants to go out with you. OK I thought. So we went on a double date thing, cruising in around in the car, stopped some place cheap for a bite, probably drank soem cheap wine the girls like…. and I totally muffed it. Her manner, etc. was not up to the image I had developed. so I was pretty quiet and withdrawn and really didn’t enjoy the foursome dynamic… Laid an egg… Never went out with her again.

    A few months later, my Buddy – who was a gorilla, seriously he looked like Tarzan at 14 – on one of his periodic forced breaks from his ride or die girl (she was suicidal during one break up) started to hook up with Candies girl.. he would tell me “goddamn man she is hot, she wraps her legs and locks them around you while you fuck her”… Total slut… in a good way… lol… This did nothing positive to my image of her, though I wasn’t mad at all with my buddy. More confused… he had this super hot older chick fucking his brains out, buying him shit and he was torturing her breaking up all the time and fucking other girls… Why wouldn’t he just enjoy what he had??? I may have had a bit of a crush on that girl, because she would seek me out often to keep tabs on him and vent her anguish…

    So a few years later in college when I hooked up with this girl who was stalking me for a few months without my knowledge… I thought I had hit it big. Good looking girl, totally into me, buy me stuff, spend money on hotels (she was working not in school)… I would be The Best BF Eva! (TM), and prove it to her too… cause we met a month before I was transferring to another school. So we do long distance for a couple of months. three or four trips back to see her. On the fourth, something ain’t right. We are in hotel, bang but she is off. says she is sick… Then confesses she started banging the married 25 YO manager of the place she worked… so much for payback on the TBBFE strategy… Blew me away. Very ugly episode of trying to figure out what I did wrong etc…

    But a few months later, the switch FLIPPED. Done. Like that. I AM THE PRIZE. Fuck bitches… and I did, I did. I went on a crazy Alpha tear for th enext 18 months. Pure mindset. Nexting girls merrily, banging their friends, rolling up on chicks like I WAS A GOLDEN GOD! Success after success after success…

    So during this time, what was to be the end of it in hindsite, I am in this Goldmundesque situation. Friend is out with his GF, they are fighting so he invites me to meet them. Girl invites her friend and she shows up with an orbiter dude. Turns out orbiter and her dated but she broke up with him at the start of the semester, and now back home at the end he was there to try and do whatever he could to win her back. Well this girl was my 10 physically and emotionally and it was liek a bomb went off… I went straight at her and blew her away. we bounced to a club I was known at, we danced crazily together, I pulled her into dark corners and we isolated for an hour or so… She gives me her number at the end of the night, as we were all leaving. She had driven orbiter to the bar. He is all “man you are a good dancer, I wish I could dance liek that!”, I’m just like w/e man…

    Anyhow I hook up with this girl in the next couple of days, and we are banging right off and to me this is all perfectly normal and expected behavior. Her GF is shocked “she isn’t like that” she tells my friend… her brother and Mom are shocked… Who the hell is this dude rolling up from nowhere…??? Orbiter is beside himself, tries to wedge back in via her brothers (coming over to hang out with them etc.). Anyhow this is over a week or so before she went back to school. A few weeks after she leaves I go by her place to pick up something because I am heading to visit her on campus, to spend 4 days there, her mom’s jaw drops when I tell her this… LOL I am oblivious that mom might be taken aback at this news…

    Get to campus, she has four orbiters there… chodey guys that help take her to and from class late at night (she didn’t have a car), hang around and drink and chat etc. Buy meals out… all that. So one of these dudes stops by her place while I am there. He is in the living room, they are chatting… After a bit I come rolling out of the bedroom in a robe (lol that was my thing back then, silk robe) and bedhead and take a seat on the couch… “What’s up dude” to the guy… She goes and brings me a plate of pineapple. The guy is in total shock… like who the fuck is THIS guy??? she says “oh hey, this is Sentient, we met over break”… she is oblivious… she really thinks these guys are just friends… LOL. Later I’m like those guys are all into you… she is Naw we are just friends… ended up marrying her… But before that… that original orbiter… that fucker made another hard run at her… squashed that by squashing her… and really the feeling was of total and complete triumph… he had to move 1,000 miles away… LOL.

    You can’t trust a guy around a girl…

  44. @Logic Re: Safety net..

    This is a point I’ve repeatedly made here on TRM.. totally agree..

    I think the usefulness extracted for a particular individual from different aspects of Game and Frame wisdom depend entirely on the reality and phase of life of the individual.. There is high diversity among men of what their circumstances, goals, desires, and problems are.

    My life’s successes/failures with girls fall into the category of “guy who can get laid”, but definitely NOT “guy all the chicks want to bang”. Some people might get that impression, because I generally have a nice looking female with me, showing affection that makes it clear I’m not in the friendzone.. Yes Rollo, indulge me for a moment and accept that my pre-marital, and post-marital liaisons qualify as ample experience. I was known in high school for pulling chicks from other schools. Showing up at the party with a hottie no one has seen before.. I’ve had pats on the back even from rival dudes from rival groups, commending me like… damn Tuff where do you find these women?

    I am a handsome man. Most girlfriends I’ve had think they have landed Mr. #1, and they tell me so. I have manners, street smarts, and diversity of experience incorporated into my identity, to the point I’m capable of associating with any person from any degree of affluence, from Royals right on down to street people. I have such great diversity of experience, that maintaining an air of ‘mystery’ when dealing with new people, is never a problem. I think being somewhat of an enigma is super important in ALL relationships. I believe this skill set comes from my family moving (relocating) 18 times before I reached the age of 20. When you are constantly forced to start anew, you gain a lot of diverse experiences.

    My physique is my albatross – I am tall and ‘skinny’, is the correct word. I lift some, and I am very fit for my age, despite my bad habits of drinking and smoking, and the musculature I do have is very defined and aesthetically pleasing to the eyes of some women who have no problem getting past my slight frame. Fortunately, I’m 6′ tall (barefooted).

    so My Reality: It is very rare that a female stranger simply ‘dislikes’ me. Most think I’m fun, handsome, intelligent, sincere, and strong enough to hang around and get to know me. But fully 95% of these gals that I feel are ‘in my league’ (6-8), do not have any arousal for me, no matter how hard I’m working them. In other words, the IOI I get from any realistically attainable girls are unmistakable. They’re either in or out from the get-go. This is just my personal experience.. when I pick up on an IOI from a girl, It’s a DONE DEAL.. that’s it.. At that point I only need to decide if I’m interested in moving forward. If I want to bang her that night, it will happen.

    When a chick turns her nose up at me, I usually do not work very hard at all, because I’m well aware of the whole pussy-begging phenomenon, and I have no interest in it.

    So, you can see how someone in my situ does not have much use for the advice centered around closing the deal.. pushing through ASD.. LMR.. number of dates before the bang.. all the things that occur between the open and the bang. In general, if I open a chick it’s because she gave some IOI. And in general, if I get that far I’m good to go.

    But there is still much useful wisdom for me in all I’ve learned here at TRM. And as I’ve posted before, the concept @Logic is describing, the ability to walk on a dime, move on immediately, minimize the pain, embrace outcome-independence from the beginning, perfecting long term frame, and understanding and handling women instead of just reacting to them and their misdeeds… That’s the safety net, and it’s invaluable.

  45. @wala

    @stuff. The fear of looking beta in my scenario motivated me to move fast to ghost and find social proof in the form of being seen with hotter girls.

    If you have to use being seen with hot girls as social proof, then you haven’t got strong internals. Work on those internals, buddy. You’re gonna get tested, so plan for that and you won’t look beta when you bust the shit tests.

    I talk about the weather and other innocuous shit, but my nonverbal communication is golden. I don’t need to create emotional spikes in girls with clever wordplay–my dancing and social proof do that…I’m playing Dodgegirl all the time with girls young enough to be my grandkids. Indirect Game.

    Now I’m wearing cheap shitty jeans and my boots have rips and I don’t buy girls drinks and all this shit is still going on and it impacts my marriage for good.

    Mrs. Gamer was going into the office today for an office birthday party and I asked her what time she’d be home. She told me and I said, “Just enough time,” (vague and open-ended) and Mrs. Gamer said, “What? To see your girlfriend?” and I said, “Come home soon!” Mrs. Gamer is snarky and flirty at the same time when she’s feeling Dread.

  46. Tuff

    I have manners, street smarts, and diversity of experience incorporated into my identity, to the point I’m capable of associating with any person from any degree of affluence, from Royals right on down to street people. I have such great diversity of experience, that maintaining an air of ‘mystery’ when dealing with new people, is never a problem. I think being somewhat of an enigma is super important in ALL relationships.

    Me too… Very useful skills. If young dudes want to devlop these skills, work at a bunch of different places… I counted up once and worked at over 30 different jobs… From blue collar to finance will billionaires…

    Re “the mystery” the other day I built something in my yard. Borrowed a neighbors saw. I was returning it and his wife asks what I was up to… I say and she is “you used power tools?”… Of course I tell her… she say she is surprised, and impressed… I laugh at her “I built a restaurant in 10 months when I worked construction”… “really…!!!!” she says…

  47. Tuff

    When a chick turns her nose up at me, I usually do not work very hard at all, because I’m well aware of the whole pussy-begging phenomenon, and I have no interest in it.

    So, you can see how someone in my situ does not have much use for the advice centered around closing the deal.. pushing through ASD.. LMR.. number of dates before the bang.. all the things that occur between the open and the bang. In general, if I open a chick it’s because she gave some IOI. And in general, if I get that far I’m good to go.

    I am in a similar position re looks, MMA build, toned muscle. But not a big guy dressed. What you are experiencing is picking the low hanging fruit… Sure it’s easy to work off of IOI’s, recognizing IOI’s is critical to success with women, game aware or not. But it is low hanging fruit. You can add a whole other range of girls… girls that YOU choose if you develop an understanding of the Female Language of Seduction aka Game. And once you are playing it isn’t a burden, because you know you have quite a bit of control in how things unfold.

    Give it a shot, it is auseful skill to develop.

  48. @Morpheus

    Not yet, everything you wrote is pure bullshit. In sociosexual terms, one of the key attributes of alphas is quick sexual escalation that women respond to.

    PDA sucks, man. Isolate before you do that shit. Sometimes being autistic is an advantage.

    Betas look for social proof from being able to escalate on a hot girl in public. It’s a trap. For preselection, you need girls to be lit up around you and no more. I really know my shit about this.

    NB:

    Lit Up…staring at you, face flushed, eyes bright with pupils dilated, smiling, laughing, giggling, working hard to get your attention

    See my old post about how to tell if a girl really likes you as an alpha…search on Indicators of Interest on my blog.

  49. As a devil’s advocate, being beta is not always a bad thing. Soldiers need to take orders. Companies need to run smoothly. Not everyone can be fucking alpha. Nothing would ever get done. Bros need to look out for bros.

  50. @Blaximus: Congratulations, your notch count is 6-7 pussies higher because you banged your friends’ girlfriends / wives / love interest. Kudos to you to also hang their panties on your car’s rearview mirror to rub it in your friends’ faces. You must be a real alpha.

    Nobody knows whether your friends got the taste of Red Pill getting fucked over and insulted by you, and that if they changed their ways. But I am sure you taught them a lesson for sure – “that they can never trust any man ever – not even someone they consider a friend”.

  51. Incubus

    But I am sure you taught them a lesson for sure – “that they can never trust any man ever – not even someone they consider a friend”.

    This is a very useful lesson. One you fail to heed at your own peril.

    When push comes to shove… and it will, in love, on the job, on the stump, in the boardroom… better to be the shover than the shovee…

  52. @Logic

    the greatest benefit that one gets from reading Rollo’s article is the fact that you are giving yourself a safety net.

    I built my own safety net long ago. Here’s the story.

    I had a gf in college for about 8 months. Saw her every day. She was really into me. I was a jerk and refused to apologize and she dumped me. Then I saw her walking with another guy where she knew I would be and I was in agony and groaned and bent over right in front of her. I was so humiliated. My ex-gf didn’t do that shit again, but it helped me to realize what a ball-buster feelings can be. Now, I seek to love, but not be “in love”.

    Seeking to be “in love” is seeking to become an addict. That shit is toxic and my college gf helped me to realize that fact. Still, I developed feelings about a dance partner a few years ago and my safety net was there to warn me about them so that the addiction was fairly mild. I saw those feelings as hostile to my interests.

    This is not to take away anything from Rollo’s article–it’s fantastic.

  53. On trust…

    Generally I follow the approach, with business, life etc… “If it can happen, it can happen” in other words, if there is a structural way for an event to take place, it might, hell it probably will, especially if one siude is benefitting from it… That little clause in that agreement? the one you think the otherside aren’t going to avail themsleves of… That big deal you close that you are sure the Boss is going to reward you for, even though doesn’t have to?

    yeah wait and see. This Golden Rule mentality is soil from which tall Betas grow.

  54. @Boxcar

    Frankly, losing the “beta” qualities would make it difficult to live a happy, successful and fulfilling life. But they have become stigmatized because they are associated with men being used by women.

    I used to lock horns about the necessity of Beta traits with Athol Kay back before women took over his message. The problem with this idea is that 80%+ of men in a feminine-primary social order that has systematically engineered a majority of men to be predominantly Betas possess all these Beta behavioral and psychological attributes in spades.

    As such, there will always be a gross overemphasis on the value of those aspects. I don’t believe in a balance of Alpha to Beta traits. It’s my opinion that men should make Alpha traits their predominant, default set, only expressing Beta traits as necessary to maintain a minimum comfort level – and even then, this comfort level should only be apparent to reinforce a necessary anxiety level for a woman’s continued interest in a man.

    Also, I believe there needs to be a distinction between Alpha and Beta behavioral sets and Alpha and Beta mindsets. Most men today are raised into a Beta mindset and this manifests in their behaviors. Vice versa for Alpha mindsets. However, that isn’t to say that a man of a predominantly Alpha mindset can’t deliberately display a Beta attribute in order to serve his own ends. Same with Beta men displaying a Alpha attributes. The problem with this lies in what is congruent with the overall perception of that man’s status to a woman.

    In the case of the Australian guy whom Goldmund schooled, the woman already had a preconceived understanding that his mindset was that of a Beta. Had he displayed some brief “flash of Alpha” it would’ve seemed inauthentic and incongruous with her preconception. However, going from an Alpha preconception to a brief “flash of Beta” is endearing and reinforcing for a woman.

    Ergo, there is no neutral balance of Alpha and Beta that a woman will ever find attractive in a man. His mindset and behaviors must be predominantly, consistently Alpha to hold her Hypergamous sexual and relational interests. While occasional, strategic and brief expressions of a Beta-like trait are necessary for comfort, there is no advantage in a man trying to maintain some equilateral balance of Alpha to Beta, and if anything it only serves to confuse a woman about her estimate of your status.

  55. However, going from an Alpha preconception to a brief “flash of Beta” is endearing and reinforcing for a woman.

    Indeed… this I believe is the basis for creating a Ride or Die girl. Massive Alpha, then surprising, sometimes astonishing Beta and emotional availability…

  56. @ Incubus

    Lol. I’ll work on feeling remorse in a few years. Busy now.

    The friends I’ve kept lifelong can endure what you see as ‘ insults’. It’s part of what makes our friendships last over multiple decades.

    And you are semi correct. When I was a young man I tried to bang every girl I could get my hands on. I tried to fuck every girl in high school as well. That’s how I learned. But you are misguided if you think I tried to bang my friends actual girlfriends. Pining away in virtual obscurity does not entitle a man to pussy. Action does. No harm, no foul.

    Be an action hero.

    The lesson is in fact – trust no woman. I fixed it for you.

  57. Nowhere near the punch of many of the stories here, but even the story I posted in Field Reports a couple of months ago – about me stepping back from the girl I opened who was totally into me, and my wing taking her home – hit me pretty hard emotionally. It’s not so much that girl – I get laid enough and another one is no big deal. But just the way I stepped back voluntarily and my wing was totally oblivious to the sacrifice I made for him.

    I’m not doing that again. He’s my buddy, and if he *asks*, I won’t fight over a girl with him. But no more self-ejecting to be “nice” which doesn’t get appreciated. He can step up and compete like anyone else. And he’ll lose. He’s good looking, ripped (Crossfit fanatic) and fun, but I’m much more engaging, more sexual and more driven (and smarter, and know more about Game, although that’s the least important thing).

    Speaking of which – Sentient – I’ve finally locked in a workout routine that I can keep up sustainably, even with my travel schedule. It’s basically a series of intense bodyweight progressions covering all major muscle groups (calisthenics) 3x week. Supplemented by quite a bit of walking (although the walking varies a lot depending on location). No gym needed, no equipment needed (except a pullup bar, but you can buy bars that screw into a door for $10) and I’ve been pretty religious about my workout for like the last 3 months or more. Plus a pretty good stretching/isometric holds routine for basic flexibility.

    I’m starting from a very low base, so still pretty weak in absolute terms, but I’m very consistent, enjoying it a lot (started looking at Youtube videos on form and reading books about exercise etc which would have been unheard of before). Can’t see much change in shape (yet), but I track my workouts closely and I’m enjoying solid noob gains – getting stronger and doing better every single workout. And I really push myself to where I’m shattered at the end of each workout (and then try to sleep myself and get enough recovery). Diet is still not optimal, but I don’t eat much crap and with my travel schedule it’s not too bad.

    From what I’ve read, bodyweight training takes longer to build muscle than weights at the gym, and it will also never get you as massive as you can get at the gym, but the muscle is more sustainable and lasts longer, and you’re more likely to be flexible and balanced in your development. Most importantly for me, I’m enjoying it and it is sustainable because I can workout anywhere and I’m getting consistently stronger.

    Also, I’m not posting so much in Field Reports etc anymore (I still read all of Rollo’s posts and glance at the comments) for a while. Partly I’ve been very focussed on work (and working out) and haven’t had a Going Out Blitz since like late March (next one coming up in late June). But most importantly..I don’t want to “do a Softek” (lol) and keep spinning my wheels posting a lot about my current sticking points, which haven’t changed in some time. I am working through flipping that mental switch myself and I’ll be back to my FRs when I have progress to report..but until then – I need to process it and take action on my own. I have all the advice I need.

  58. CH’s best post on trust and mindset

    In sober moments free of maudlin introspection, you will understand there is no other game to play save this one. This is why to live as a man is to TAKE what you want. Not to wait for it to be given to you. Because it will never be given. Not to anticipate the empathy of the overseers. Because they will never empathize. Not to expect the coddling of the crowd. Because they will never coddle. Not to assume the wagon circling of kindreds. Because they will never circle for you. You got the short stick, now what? Do you contemplate it and hope for a longer one? No.

    You sharpen it and jab it into the heart of every obstacle that sets itself in your way.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/the-fundamental-premise/

    To be inscribed for your son on his high school graduation present, preferably a large knife or the reciever of an FN FAL…

  59. “No gym needed, no equipment needed (except a pullup bar . . .”

    Find a used walker as well. If you’re patient you might find one free that the previous owner “doesn’t need any more.” Replace the wheels with crutch ends.

    Dips.

  60. I hear you @Sentient.. and I didn’t mean to make it sound like rejection avoidance is my M.O. Admittedly it is to a degree, but part of that is just my phase of life. I’m really not on any mission to rack up notches.. in my world, it’s often more trouble than it’s worth.. But I do agree with you that I’m taking the easy out by only going for what I know I can get. I’m just fortunate that I have that 1 in 20 that makes it easy on me. I swear to you gentlemen, since the age of 15, I have not experienced more than 3 months without a chick I’m b

    There’s also another dynamic.. As I mentioned in this post, guys have various goals. Two things I know very well about myself:

    1. I have a tendency to go really hard at the chick who is 1-2 points above me in SMV if she shows IOI, even going too far to make her MINE. This is a huge source of my pain over the years, because the relationship is always high maintenance when you do that. Add to that my strong ego, that I hate to fail, and my extremely high level of willpower, and that’s how one gets sucked into a 20 year marriage with an unworthy (while at least hot, and horny) chick.

    2. now at 45, I am more fulfilled by genuine intimacy with a chick than with sex. Good sex was always and is still a requirement for me, and while my N-count may be low (around 20), I’ll compare my raw overall numbers, and diversity of sexual experiences to any man on the planet. I mean that, and it feels pretty good to be a skinny kid who can truthfully say that. But anyway, the intimacy aspect has also always been part of it for me, which is what made me a serial monogamist, I suppose. When I hear things like “all guys need variety”, etc.. I scratch my head some, because it doesn’t really add up when you look at a lot of guys’ behavior in going hard for the chick they want, and then getting attached to her. I’m guilty of this.

    So the point of all my rambling is I think there is a big difference in the takeaway from TRP between the guy who’s struggling to get laid at all, or enough (at least by women he truly desires), vs. guy who is maybe searching for a quality woman to marry, vs. the guy who just got destroyed and needs answers and to know that he’s not alone (where I was 2 years ago), vs. a guy like me now, who’s problems lie more in the realm of how to keep a woman I really like happy, in-check, and under my spell where she belongs (i.e. all LTR guys).

    Someone who is more talented than me should put some thought into it and breakdown the exact categories of men in this regard. Three I mentioned above for starters, and I’m sure there are more. A sort of map to discover which category you’re in, and direct you to the more useful RP genres for your situation.

  61. @KFG – LOL. Now that’s a unique way to get started on dips.

    Yes, it’s further along the progressions. I’m not strong enough to actually do dips yet, but I’ve been doing holds at the top of the dip movement to get used to it. Even a sturdy chair will do if you use the arms of the chair (I need to lift the legs up then of course, but that’s a core workout).

  62. @Rollo

    While occasional, strategic and brief expressions of a Beta-like trait are necessary for comfort, there is no advantage in a man trying to maintain some equilateral balance of Alpha to Beta, and if anything it only serves to confuse a woman about her estimate of your status.

    …which leads us to infer that you need to be calibrating a woman because her nonverbal communication will tell you when she needs comfort (i.e., the expression of Beta traits). And so we arrive at a post about relationships that I wrote years ago.

  63. @Blaximus: You haven’t fixed anything about me. I have been Red Pilled long before I knew that it was called Red Pill or there is a community of people with the same ideas.

    Again, how small is your dick that you have keep bragging that you bang everything you see, you what is your notch count. Everyman who has been Red Pilled over time will bang many women, which is the case with most of the commenters on this forum.

    I don’t expect remorse from people like you. Banging women your friends are interested is not the issue here. It the way you have described you have treated your friends after – hanging panties on your rearview mirror, telling them to smell your sticky fingers. Real men don’t have to insult and ridicule other men to prove their self-worth.

    If you think that breaking your friends’ trust and insulting them is better than missing an opportunity to bang some silly bitch, then you are no better than any Blue Pilled guy who will do anything for pussy.

    You seem to have some deep-seated insecurities if you still have to brag how you fucked over your friends and insulted them. And just like women you are using the hamster logic that you did those men a favor.

    It is apparent that you have put pussy on a pedestal and will do anything to get it – even if it means screwing over your friends.

    “The friends I’ve kept lifelong can endure what you see as ‘ insults’.” – Are you trying to say that you have friends who have forgiven you after you banged their women and rubbed panties on their faces?

  64. Incubus

    I thinik you are the one putting pussy on a pedestal, your comments suggest a scarcity mentality. Alphas welcome competition, even if they lose. Because girls are fungible. There was a post a while back at The Chateau about Errol Flynn and a story about him on a boat with David Niven and tossing Niven overboard and speeding away with his girl on the boat, presumably to bang… and the kommenters where overwhelmed with this dastardly move…

    But to Niven, treading water… a guy who could snap his fingers and have showgirl number 46 in a blink… I’m sure he was laughing his ass off as he started to swim back to shore… well played sir!

  65. @Sentient: You know what is scarcity mentality? Fucking over your friends to bang their women and bragging to them after, tossing your friends overboard to get some pussy. Real power does not lie in fighting for pussy, it is having the courage to walk away from it, because you know that there is abundance of it.

    “Alphas welcome competition, even if they lose. Because girls are fungible.” – typical blue pilled PUA trash talk. Are we living in jungles in stone-age that we must fight other men, break their heads and steal their women for a quick bang?

    I started seeing real success with women when I stopped competing for pussy. It was the attitude of abundance that when I walk away from pussy, I made it clear that I can get it anytime I want on my terms. And that is where you separate yourself from other men and women can see this.

    “To have success with women, you can’t rely on just using game, YOU HAVE TO BE THE GAME”.

  66. Are we living in jungles in stone-age that we must fight other men, break their heads and steal their women for a quick bang?

    Yes.

    I think you are conflating the abundance mentality concept with WK’ing on behalf of your bros… if you can walk away from pussy so can your bros right? Unless they can’t compete…

  67. @Rollo, what you say makes sense, particularly in the circumstances that men find themselves in today. Every man needs to have some degree of control over the direction of his life. Women likewise need the same. As feminists have argued, it is an intolerable condition, for women to always be one sexual encounter away from sending her life into a tailspin (through pregnancy). That same intolerable lack of control exists with respect to men, who are forced into the provisioning role, even against our will. If men’s provisioning had to be earned (ie, women actually depended on us), it would also be easier to have frame under those circumstances.

  68. @Sentient: “think you are conflating the abundance mentality concept with WK’ing on behalf of your bros…” – I have never done anything “for” my bros or any other man, whatever I do is for me. There are times I have walked away from pussy, and it has always come back chasing after me and I have banged the hell out of it on my terms.

    And to make it clear, I am not a 21-year-old college kid going around night clubs hitting on girls in front of their boyfriends – all that RSDTyler stupid PUA shit is degrading and reeks of pussy begging. If you are fine with resorting to such tactics in the name of “healthy competition”, then you are just trying to compensate for your insecurities and your past failures with women.

    I have been with enough women to know that all vaginas feel the same. And there is no vagina in the world that has power over me. I don’t “have to” bang every pussy I see to prove that I am Alpha. I get women “my terms” (which is abundance mindset) – not on “any terms” (which is scarcity mindset).

  69. @Sentient: I have been on this forum for a while and I have seen you comment a lot on all the posts. And “Wait What??” is all you can come up with?

  70. If you think that breaking your friends’ trust and insulting them is better than missing an opportunity to bang some silly bitch, then you are no better than any Blue Pilled guy who will do anything for pussy.

    “Friends”, duly noted, but what about the situation Goldmund was in? He wasn’t ‘friends’ with the Australian guy.

    As I mentioned in the OP, Hypergamy and evolution don’t care about “Bros before Hoes”. Women will just as readily fulfill their AF/BB imperative with different men and rationalize it as “honorable” for the guy she effectively cuckolds to assume parental investment of a guy who didn’t sire the child.

  71. @ Incubus

    Lol. Woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something?

    Ok. Let’s see here….

    ” Again, how small is your dick that you have keep bragging that you bang everything you see, you what is your notch count. Everyman who has been Red Pilled over time will bang many women, which is the case with most of the commenters on this forum. ”

    Dick questions? Really?

    trust me, you don’t really want to know.

    Ditto the N-count.

    Neither of these are of any import here.

    ” I don’t expect remorse from people like you. Banging women your friends are interested is not the issue here. It the way you have described you have treated your friends after – hanging panties on your rearview mirror, telling them to smell your sticky fingers. Real men don’t have to insult and ridicule other men to prove their self-worth.”

    No true Scotsman…

    You’re welcome to be a nurturing coddler. That’s not for me. Btw, ” I ” prove my self worth to myself. As a RP individual, you should already get this. You have work to do.

    ” If you think that breaking your friends’ trust and insulting them is better than missing an opportunity to bang some silly bitch, then you are no better than any Blue Pilled guy who will do anything for pussy.”

    Ohhh, but you are wrong. I didn’t/don’t break friends trust. Maybe you need you take off your ” Angry Glasses ” and re-read what I’d posted. And I am better than the average blue pilled guy because I won’t do anything for pussy. Go back a few years and read some of my comments. You don’t get me at all. Not my issue.

    ” You seem to have some deep-seated insecurities if you still have to brag how you fucked over your friends and insulted them. And just like women you are using the hamster logic that you did those men a favor.”

    *Yawn*

    I have zero insecurities, lol. I wasn’t ” bragging “, I was relating a story that I thought was pertinent to the OP.

    Idk, maybe you hang out with dudes you don’t really know well? Or it’s a sewing circle of some sort? You should pay more attention to how true male friends interact sometimes. Guys don’t usually hand each other Kleenex’s outside of funerals and the like.

    ” It is apparent that you have put pussy on a pedestal and will do anything to get it – even if it means screwing over your friends. ”

    LMAO. Boy, you REALLY don’t know me at all. You MUST not have been following the comments here for very long.

    “The friends I’ve kept lifelong can endure what you see as ‘ insults’.” – Are you trying to say that you have friends who have forgiven you after you banged their women and rubbed panties on their faces?”

    Again, for the Hard of Reading: I’ve never banged a friend’s woman. An orbiting dude doesn’t have a gf in the object of his misguided obsession. Get it? …. and you say you’re RP. Pffftttt….

    Are you done being butthurt?

    Now some friendly advice for you – You sir, need to check your RP status. Most of what you’ve said sounds suspiciously Blue pill imo. Softer than Wonder Bread. Sounds like you’ve been slow on the draw and had a few women snatched away from you because you couldn’t Hold ’em. Don’t take it out on me.

    http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

  72. “I have been with enough women to know that all vaginas feel the same.”

    You might want to change your brand of condoms.

  73. @Blaximus: Not a single straight answer to anything I said. And you say you are a long time commenter? Ha. Come up with better answers. And stop using women speak – “you are just angry”, “you can’t get laid”, “you’ve had women taken away from you”, “you are butthurt”.

    “LMAO. Boy, you REALLY don’t know me at all. You MUST not have been following the comments here for very long.” – What’s there to know about a guy who has to hang panties on his rearview mirror anytime he gets a bang?

  74. @Incubus

    You either die a virgin, or live long enough to see yourself become Chad…..

    “Why so serious?”

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