The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

1,119 comments on “The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

  1. “What if it wasn’t G but some random guy at the club that she smashed?”

    G was some random guy at the club.

    Q: What are the odds of my shuffling a deck and pulling the Ace of Spades off the top?
    A: 1 in 52.

    Q: I have just shuffled a deck and pulled the Ace of Spades off the top. What are the odds against that?
    A: 0

    Not understanding the above gets a shit ton of people into a shit ton of trouble.

  2. ASD,

    Good one. I actually anticipated that. I get a point for an assist.

    Fyi, the water was cold. No golden showers here. Sorry if I ruined your voyeuristic fantasy.

    kfg,

    To bring ethnicity into an internet comment section such as this was a bad move. My Sicilian heritage has nothing to do with anything; I was born and reared in the US, both my parents were college educated, intelligent, well-spoken people, honorable, respected in the community, by people of ALL ethnicities and backgrounds.

    My dad served this country for 22 years as a US Navy officer, then retired and worked for the Dept of the Navy as a civilian. I’m college educated, have a law degree, passed two bar exams. We’re a part of Western Civ, US society, and we’ve earned it.

    You’re backpedalling now and trying to use Vox as a human shield to protect yourself from the fallout your own ignorant introduction of my ethnicity into the discussion.

    Best to back off the subject of my ethnicity having any bearing on this discussion; you’re only digging a deeper hole with your hamstering.

    As far as the objective subject of Sicily vs Palestine, Sicily became a part of the Empire a lot earlier than Palestine, and was integrated into it far better than Palestine ever was. It’s an apples to oranges comparison.

    I suggest you re-swallow your RP because you’ve coughed it up with all the hamstering.

  3. I see where Kid Jupiter is coming from.

    I think he’s pointing out that the situation described by Goldmund is not good i.e. there’s nothing in it to be celebrated, regardless of hypergamy, and if this behaviour goes unchecked at a societal wide level, then there isn’t going to be much of a civilisation left.

    I can only relate this back to my Mother’s disapproval of my Sister’s manipulative behaviour.

    Clearly both my Mother and Sister are hypergamous, however, my Mother was brought up in a time when behaviour like my Sister’s was shamed, ostracised, and she chose (partially due to the social conventions and partially due to her own agency) to be a faithful wife and mother.

    My Sister hasn’t experienced this, and unrestrained hypergamy has allowed her to treat a great many men very poorly. Since hitting her mid 30s, she has since “calmed down” and settled with a stand up fellow and had a child.

    The man my Sister has settled with also has another child from a previous relationship, with a very disturbed women, who uses the child as weapon (in terms of access) with which to threaten him. This poor child is basically a pawn in an ongoing custody battle, and spends most of his time with his biological mother who also has a on going string of different boyfriends. I do not know how this situation can be good for this poor little boy.

    Further, my Sister has dropped hints from her behaviour that she’s not satisfied in her relationship, and I recently found out she’s still in contact with an abusive psychopathic ex that used to beat her.

    If my Sister acts on her hypergamy again and destroys her relationship with this man, she’s going to fuck further an already fucked up family. She’ll muck her own biological child’s life, and that of another child that has begun to see her as a motherly figure.

    Repeat this society wide, and to a large degree this is happening, we are heading for huge problems in the future.

    I think that’s Kid Jupiter’s point, and I don’t think it’s controversial to say that.

  4. p.s. Just to be absolutely clear, I’m not saying that RM is celebrating Goldumd’s story, rather it’s being used to highlight the workings of hypergamy, that’s not in dispute.

  5. Get ready for the insults, Chunky.

    “You’re so blue pill”
    “You’re a beta”
    “Ought vs Is”

    Etc

    Can’t even bring stuff like this up without them throwing shit at you.

    These guys are so predictable.

  6. @ Kid

    I think you’re missing the crux of what kfg was communicating. Your giving too much weight to the ethnicity part and glossing over the western civ thing.

    If one considers himself ” american ” or ” part of western civ “, then heritage mostly becomes a mute point in the larger thought. You’re foregoing heritage for another identity that’s more current and inline with reality. Adopting western civ without regard to original heritage.

    Sicily has a very interesting history, to put it mildly. But I’m not into telling people anything about their heritage.

    Kfg is spot on that everyone was considered a barbarian by someone else. Take his words and thought in context and shit will be learned.

    Or you can hold on to offense and miss the point.

  7. @KJ

    Good one. I actually anticipated that. I get a point for an assist.

    If you’d kept quiet about it, you’d have gotten a point.

    Sorry if I ruined your voyeuristic fantasy.

    Believe it or not, I don’t want pics of Ton peeing down your back.

  8. ASD,

    Nah. I get a point for an assist.

    Setting up your teammates to score one at your expense and laugh about it together is a part of male bonding and a display of self-confidence: you’re confident enough in yourself to take a joke and even set one up at your own expense.

  9. “I think he’s pointing out that the situation described by Goldmund is not good i.e. there’s nothing in it to be celebrated, regardless of hypergamy, and if this behaviour goes unchecked at a societal wide level, then there isn’t going to be much of a civilisation left.”

    That is one of the two points he has actually managed to make clearly. Yeah.

    “To bring ethnicity into an internet comment section such as this was a bad move.”

    As I have said, it belongs at Vox Popoli or Gates of Vienna, at least so far as it does not relate to how it affects socio-sexual dynamics. You posited a socio-sexual dynamic which is contrary to both the one you exist in and the one you espouse.

    But is entirely congruent with that of your ancestors. Which is how I was able to “guess” where they came from. It shows. Call me a Thief (one great grandparent), it’s OK, I won’t get bent out of shape or nuthin’, and then we can discuss to what degree my own behavior stems from and is congruent with that particular part of my ethnicity (maybe sticking them in more than one eighth way is some sort of cultural appropriation?).

    It is also worth noting that nation, country, nation state, race, ethnicity and culture all mean different things. To confuse them is to be unable to discuss them rationally.

    But the big question is, can you calmly and rationally settle down and discuss what IS?

  10. kfg,

    Keep diggin’. You’re almost at burial deprh.

    Was that “Godfather” enough? I am Sicilian, after all…

  11. Lol, @Blax, I had you for that area, from previous comments.

    I know Bloomfield (and Holstens) well… Spent some time in Glen Ridge, Montclair & surroundings.

  12. kfg,

    “That is one of the two points he has actually managed to make clearly. Yeah.”

    As I’ve said already, I’m throwing around some ideas, hypotheticals, while you’re having an endless debate and attempting to put me into a Struggle Session. You’re exhausting and irritating. Not everything has to be turned into Debate Club.

    Maybe you’re too ‘intellectual’ for your own good. Go to the gym, exercise, play outside. Get your body moving to alleviate some of the mental strain you appear to be under.

    That is what “IS”

  13. “You’re backpedalling now”

    Each time you show start to chill out and engage without getting all triggered you can’t but help not step on your own dick you start again.

    Impressive resume. You posting it reminds me of the bodybuilders I’ve photographed. Begging for attention and pining for validation. That’s what Facebook is for, not The Rational Male.

  14. Roused,

    Post something constructive and positive once in awhile and maybe then I’ll give a fuck about your opinion of me. You’re a constant ball of negativity and a real dick.

  15. “then I’ll give a fuck about your opinion of me”

    What makes you think I care anything about you or your opinion?

  16. “Go to the gym, exercise, play outside. Get your body moving to alleviate some of the mental strain you appear to be under.”

    Oh. Hey. You actually said something funny. Good show.

  17. Chunky, I’m of the same opinion.

    Unfortunately, that’s what passes for constructive dialogue here, since there’s no moderator. It’s a shame.

    I’m just playing along – when in Rome, do as the Sicilians.

  18. “I’m throwing around some ideas . . .”

    Here’s an idea. Just something to think about. What if . . .

    . . . you unplugged from the Matrix, made it through the period of hurting eyes without clawing them out, found your way Zion and took up life in the really true world, only to find out . . .

    . . . Zion itself was a construct of the Matrix?

  19. kfg,

    I’m outta gas with this, brother.

    You keep saying the same thing, in different ways. But, your preaching to the choir, because I’ve been through the “hurting eyes” period and I see clearly RP reality. Believe me, I see it, I experience it, and when my eyes were first painfully opened, it hurt like a MFer.

    I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it.

    Given the nature of Rollo’s writing, I thought I could discuss these issues here, play around with some ideas, and engage in thought experiments and hypotheticals. Apparently, I was wrong, because a few of you guys want to keep beating the same drum. We aren’t on the same wavelength; I get your positions, but you refuse to get mine, and, in addition to that, you want to attack mine in an endless debate and put me through some kind of warped Struggle Session to ‘reeducate’ me in your own nihilistic view of what “IS.” Anything that deviates from your “IS” dogma isn’t tolerated and leads to further Struggle Sessions.

    You’re actually engaged in a dominance-submission game, in which the only acceptable result is me submitting to you. It has nothing to do with rationality, intellectualism, or anything else. Totalitarianism in action.

    It’s a tremendous waste of time and a shame that a blog of Rollo’s quality has a comments section that degenerates into this BS. It was bad when it was just scribblerg acting like an asshole; now he’s gone (apparently), but his attitude has metastasized into more of you.

    Enough already.

  20. Mr. Brightside still isn’t getting it. He isn’t going to get it.

    Kid – you think after KFG susses out your regional ethnicity based on less than 500 words you’d sit back and make a genuine good faith effort to understand what is obvious by your own posts what you don’t undestand. Many have been incredibly patient with you.

  21. Sentient,

    Now you’re gaslighting me.

    My ethnicity has nothing to do with my stated positions. A guy of Polish descent, Russian, Japanese, English, etc could have the same position. Congrats to kfg, he guessed Sicilian. I bet you guys even have a mental picture of what I look like, too, based on all the mob movies you’ve watched.

    Now you profess to have an occult knowledge of bass players, too. Because all bass players are the same, right? Geddy Lee from Rush and Cliff Williams from AC/DC – same instrument, same vibe, right?

    The Struggle Session continues…

  22. Welp. Being a Psychopath beats having the deserved contempt of people you learn to expect nothing but disapproval from. It’s almost like psychopaths learn to manipulate from their parents or something.

  23. @Chunky Monkey

    I am not going to defend Goldmund, or anyone else in that little story. But I just wanted to challenge your ethical perspective (what would society be like, if everyone acted that way), because it goes to the heart of TRP. The common RP suggestions that men never marry or have children, if acted on by everyone, would have pretty unpleasant consequences for society as a whole. But I would never say that a man has an ethical responsibility to sacrifice himself, just for the sake of society.

  24. Chunky monkey About your sister. I have raised girls I have 17 and a 19 year old daughter. I got female cousins and aunts and mom. Just buried grandmaw last year. Let me tell you. You in no uncertain terms cannot control your sister. Only other females control the behavior of females.you cannot shame a woman only other weman can do that. Good attention or bad attention does not matter only attention matters. Or as some say there is no bad press. I got cousin we call her BB she got this name for fucking 2 guys in bathroom at bar while married. Bathroom bitch is what it stands for. She did not curtail her behavior until the females in the family found out and started shaming her. She don’t and your sister doesn’t give a shit about your opinion in her sex life. Hypergamy don’t care. The females your sister runs with are the only ones that decide what’s appropriate. Still waiting ROLLO for the part 2

  25. Blackstone

    “The absolute rights of man, considered as a free agent, endowed with discernment to know good from evil, and with power of choosing those measures which appear to him to be most desirable, are usually summed up in one general appellation, and denominated the natural liberty of mankind. This natural liberty consists properly in a power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, unless by the law of nature: being a right inherent in us by birth, and one of the gifts of God to man at his creation, when he endowed him with the faculty of freewill.( But every man, when he enters into society, gives up a part of his natural liberty, as the price of so valuable a purchase; and, in consideration of receiving the advantages of mutual commerce, obliges himself to conform to those laws, which the community has thought proper to establish).”

    Perhaps after a couple of brews the price no longer outweighed the liberty for the supposed trespassers.

  26. “I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it.”

    And there are places to do that, but it is the obverse of what TRM is about. You are pointing north and saying “south.” Turn your compass card 180 degrees in the housing and the charts might start to make a lot more sense to you.

  27. Kid Jupiter
    I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it.

    Pretty tall order. How about working up to that? Build a perpetual motion machine first.
    Should be easy for someone with a law degree.

  28. The common RP suggestions that men never marry or have children, if acted on by everyone, would have pretty unpleasant consequences for society as a whole.
    Boxcar
    ……….

    It’s a concern I understand but one I dismiss. What has society done lately to earn any sort of loyalty or concern for its well being? Loyalty etc has to be a two way street

    Things can and are going to get worse because society has turned it’s back on those who made it worthwhile. There is no realistic large scale turning back. And I am OK with that. To much civilization is bad for the masculine soul and is utter death for individual masculine sovereignty

    Society has to create a better incentive plan then butt sore beta bufoonish rants if you don’t want some dude raw dogging some orbiter’s bitch in the bathroom

  29. And there are places to do that, but it is the obverse of what TRM is about.

    Right. TRM is about a bottoms up approach. It’s not about top down saving culture or society from itself. And that is where the admonition to acknowledge how things are, rather than how they ought to be.

    In the OP, Goldmund formulated a situation report in his head. He then acted based on that as things unfolded. A lot of guys have come to the manosphere and decided that it must be a socio-cultural thing that was the problem with their own agency to act.

    Ten years ago I acquired a kayak and proceeded to go upstream on a river and they come back downstream cause that is where my car was. I found that took quite a bit of energy. So from then on I decided my time was more valuable and it was a lot more enjoyable going downstream (because of the law of least effort). So thereafter I put a bicyle at my destination before putting in upstream.

    Golmund merely went with the current, as is his style.

  30. Kid jackass is a lawyer? That pretty much sums up everything wrong with him….. and most of western civilization he seems to be fond of…. while at the same time destroying it

  31. @Ton

    Here is his credentials hangin on the desk.

    “My dad served this country for 22 years as a US Navy officer, then retired and worked for the Dept of the Navy as a civilian. I’m college educated, have a law degree, passed two bar exams. We’re a part of Western Civ, US society, and we’ve earned it.”

  32. @Sentient: “But the bass player thing totally makes sense…”

    Could be worse. Could be a drummer.

    @Stuffin Box:

    Vox Day would point out that the principle reason that Blackstone could write that was because Blackstone was English. The literal history (that is to say put down in writing) of that philosophy has roots that go back to Alfred the Great, and the cultural history (that is to say how people thought and behaved) goes back further than that, as Alfred’s project was to collect and collate what already was practice.

    Confucius wrote down some rather different ideas, because he had a different cultural background.

    TRP is about getting under those ideas to find the universal basis of all culture. When you strip it all away to the point where you can’t strip it any more without destroying it, what’s left?

    If Zion itself is a construct of the Matrix, what is the real REAL true reality.

    We can’t look to Neo to find out, he never did, because the Wachowski Things didn’t have a fucking clue and just started making up bullshit as they went along.

  33. I didn’t doubt you brother but it pretry much explains things.

    Does anyone around here give a fuck about his schooling or parents? And isn’t that sort of apeal a logical fallacy?

  34. “Kid jackass is a lawyer?”

    And one who thinks that if a cop didn’t eyewitness it, it’s hearsay, and thus unprosecutable.

  35. “And isn’t that sort of apeal a logical fallacy?”

    It’s an apology for the What About ME? fallacy.

  36. And the What About ME? fallacy is the personal variant of the Appeal to Undesirable Consequences fallacy.

  37. Lol been awhile since I studied logic but I thought that fallacy was apeal to authority or some such

    What I do remember is walking away from it all becuase none of it stacks up to the real world of fuck up shit we live in

  38. @kfg

    I am getting the sense that the course is being charted back on topic.

    Where the utility of the beta,leaves a man feeling like a tool,left out in the rain.

    While another man feels as a craftsman.

  39. Ton,

    You’ve become a nihlist. Your over the top bravado and bluster betray a’sensitive core; you’re over-compensating.

    I can understand your jadedness- you’ve been in the trenches in the service, fighting hajis to “defend your country,” probably seen some real gruesome shit. (In quotes, because those wars are BS and only in certain people’s interests – certainly not yours or mine.. but let’s not get too far afield here.)

    Then you come back and see the shit going on home and say, “what the fuck did I put my ass on the line for?” So chicks can run rampant, doing whatever they want with no consequences, men getting the shaft left and right by a society that misleads and doesn’t care about them, and, of course, trannies fighting for the right to use the ladies’ room…. Doesn’t seem worth it, I get it.

    I wanted to be like my father and join the service, but he actually vehemently dissuaded me. He put in his time and did his duty, but came to the conclusion that the service treats you like a “second-class citizen,” in his words. And this is coming from a career guy, O-5. Seeing these BS wars we’ve been in the last 25 years, I get the point.

    But, my question is if we let things collapse, then what? This whole manosphere thing started with a few guys and has grown into quite a significant phenomenon, one that managed to get on the radar of the “Matrix” and which the Matrix views as a threat; just look at the shit they put Roosh through (a lot of it self-inflicted, but it’s a good example). Like him or hate him, what they did to him is indicative that they view men getting together and figuring out the underlying superstructure and source code of a society that’s against them is a huge threat, because that ‘virus’ will spread if not contained (and it has).

    One of the reasons I also read Return Of Kings regularly is because the writers not only discuss the problems and what “IS”, but also discuss potential solutions. That’s constructive, IMO. To solely focus on what “IS” and the problems, while not considering potential solutions (“oughts”?) – and actively ridiculing those who even address potential solutions – is not constructive or healthy. It’s just nihlism, and that’s the philosophy of death.

    I know Rollo has problems with Roosh, not sure of the specifics and I don’t care because I like both of their work. Just bringing him up as a quick example.

    If you guys don’t think what I have to contribute has value here, I won’t contribute anymore. I’ll just go back to reading the OPs and not get involved in the comments. No problem. It just seems like a waste of time to get into nonstop shit-throwing and defending of myself, which I’m fully capable of, but which isn’t really helping me move my own ball.

  40. Appeal to Authority: It’s true because he said so. Ipse Dixit.

    Appeal to Consequences: It can’t/must be true because it would mean something good/bad would also be true/happen.

    But What About ME?: It can’t be true, because it would apply to me.

  41. I am not without sympathy for the blight of betas but 1st step of beta recovery is owning your shit

    You’ll be stuck in bitch mode as long as you excuse your failures

  42. @BoxCar

    Good question,

    I suppose what’s going on at large is a grand game of prisoner’s dilemma. I think if you look back several generations, there was the tacit realisation that everyone is better off if each individual could trust and co-operate with each other (with the government as a backstop to stop people reneging on contracts, and I think that might be part of the problem today, in that the government are allowing specific groups of people to renege on certain contracts like marriage without consequence).

    I think we’re moving away from that towards the pimp/whore/trick societal model that SFC alluded to, and which is ultimately a zero sum game where a small elite parasitically “pimp” off of everyone else and live relatively better lives, but collectively we never progress to a better standard of living.

    Which leaves people who can see the problems, and whom want to operate on a principle of trust and co-operation (i.e. the old set of rules), with a rather difficult dilemma.

    In terms of marriage and relationships, the only solution I can see for a man is to find a women who shares his values, if that’s even possible.

    @SFCTon

    “It’s a concern I understand but one I dismiss. What has society done lately to earn any sort of loyalty or concern for its well being? Loyalty etc has to be a two way street”

    I’m not being flippant, and I’m saying this with complete sincerity, unless you live on a desert island you can’t dismiss or ignore society turning to chaos, because it will drag you down with it.

    @Keith

    That’s a good observation and I agree with you, she didn’t give a shit what I thought, and only ever seemed mildly embarrassed when Mum find out about her escapades (even she struggled to confront my Sister over the things she did). I was really just an observer from a teenager onward, who watched in horror as my previously cute little kid sister did one reprehensible, reckless, thing after the next.

    The only time I offered any sort of interference was when I learned her scumbag boyfriend at the time was beating her up (I said I would beat his head into a bloody pulp, and I was confused at the time when she became quite angry at the suggestion. Her reaction is not so confusing now that I’ve read TRM), or when she tried manipulation on my friends (the only case she tried that I know of was for money rather than sex, and I slapped her down for it and told her to stop embarrassing me).

    As I mention before my Mum tried hold my Sister accountable without success, because my Sister was more dominant than my mother (I remember the whole power struggle between my Mum and my Sister. My Sister was even gas lighting my Mum by stealing personal possessions of hers and denying any involvement. It was a nightmare living in the same house. Again at the time I was utterly befuddled with what she was doing, less so having read TRM). My Sister’s best friend was also a raging slut, whose nickname in her place of work was “sperm bank”.

    If she blows up her current relationship, I shall feel sad for those poor boys, and I’ll try and help my nephew however I can.

  43. kfg,

    I was describing simple assault with my “cop not witnessing it” thing.

    “Simple assault” is a “disorderly person” offense in most jurisdictions. A DP is a low-level misdemeanor, no arrests are made.

    “Aggravated assault” is different, there is an aggravating factor, such as the use of a weapon or application of deadly force that doesn’t result in actual death (bc then you’re dealing with homicide). Then an arrest is made and the state does the prosecution.

    Most fistfights are covered under simple assault, provided no weapons were used.

    These are not prosecuted by the state on it’s own; a civil complaint must he filed by a complaintant, then the legal process begins. It’s actually almost a hybrid of criminal and civil law, and is handled completely at the municipal court level.

    (Whereas if an arrest is made, ie agg assault, arraignment takes place in muni court where incident occurred and prosecution occurs st state trial court level)

  44. “But, my question is if we let things collapse, then what? ”

    Then we don’t get smashed by the imminent cave in while in futile effort to prop shit up for assholes that won’t lift a finger to save their own asses.

    And hopefully keep our own safe as this is a full time job in and of itself,thereby carrying on the survival of our progeny.

    Better stay strong and out from under the “machine”.

  45. Ton,

    If I’m “peddling bullshit,” then just ignore me. You keep responding, attacking.

  46. “But, my question is if we let things collapse, then what?”

    I have a Morakniv Companion on body. I have a Fiskars hatchet within reach. Six paces away there is an axe handle by the outward opening, refrigerator hung door (the harder you push it, the tighter it’s closed). Die biting the throat.

    I’m not a tough guy, just not blind and unprepared.

    ” . . . underlying superstructure . . . ”

    Down is Up, Brother. Do you use language like that in contracts?

    “It just seems like a waste of time to get into nonstop shit-throwing . . .”

    If I didn’t think that maybe you might have value, I wouldn’t bother.

  47. stuffin,

    Chunky said it perfectly, in response to Ton:

    “I’m not being flippant, and I’m saying this with complete sincerity, unless you live on a desert island you can’t dismiss or ignore society turning to chaos, because it will drag you down with it.”

    There’s no place to hide if shit collapses.

  48. kfg,

    Your guns and hatchets and and axehandles and teeth aren’t a legitimate response to the question.

    I don’t believe my 9mm’s are enough to survive a collapse very long. Nor my knives or my teeth. I’d rather work toward avoiding a collapse in the first place.

  49. I’m not being flippant, and I’m saying this with complete sincerity, unless you live on a desert island you can’t dismiss or ignore society turning to chaos, because it will drag you down with it.
    Chunk Monkey

    LOL I live on a pensuial with 6 other familes….. does that count?

    No its a legit point CM, but there is nothing that can be done for society. There are things I can do to maximize my family’s long term potential. Those things I can do, I have done and contuine to improve things as I see new opportunities even after my biggest gamble for their sakes turned out all bad

    There is no letting things collapse. They are collapsing and will collapse. The old bonds are shattered long before we were born and the gulf widens. There is only one practical way for the collaspe not to get extremely violent and drawn out, but the shot callers and typical man in the street will never go for it.

    I don’t tilt at windmills.

    Side note, I think part of Trump’s appeal was a belief he would renew do of the old bonds but whatever Trump does to reinstate some of these things are merely blips

  50. @Boxcar

    “I am not going to defend Goldmund, or anyone else in that little story. But I just wanted to challenge your ethical perspective (what would society be like, if everyone acted that way), because it goes to the heart of TRP. The common RP suggestions that men never marry or have children, if acted on by everyone, would have pretty unpleasant consequences for society as a whole. But I would never say that a man has an ethical responsibility to sacrifice himself, just for the sake of society.”

    We would reach that point and then we’d adapt. The internet didn’t exist until about a generation ago.

    There’s no way we’re getting away with destroying ourselves this time. This time we’re gonna learn.

  51. There’s no place to hide if shit collapses.

    Maybe. Mel Tappan thought otherwise. He never got to test his ideas. Search on his name.
    Kid, your’e not the first to notice that things are breaking, not by a long shot. But act as though you are. That’s one of your problems.

  52. “Ps, don’t forget to wash the brine off your pork chops before you throw them on the smoker”

    Thin sliced tri tip and boneless beef ribs marinating in sea salt beer and honey not washing em off before smoking on rocky mnt maple.

  53. ChunkyMonkey
    Which leaves people who can see the problems, and whom want to operate on a principle of trust and co-operation (i.e. the old set of rules), with a rather difficult dilemma.

    For those people the world becomes something like concentric circles. Family and kin and some friends are in the inner, high trust circle. Neighbors in a further out circle. Etc. It means some people get a lot of trust, some get a little, some get none. This isn’t exactly new. Rural folks grew up this way in some places.

  54. Anon Reader,

    “Kid, your’e not the first to notice that things are breaking, not by a long shot. But act as though you are. That’s one of your problems.”

    Worthless comment. It’s not true, and accomplishes nothing.

  55. @KJ: “I was . . .”

    That may be what you meant, but it isn’t what you said. We read what you say, respond to that, then get taken to task for lacking “reading comprehension” because we didn’t read your mind and figure out what you really meant.

    In the case of “foundational superstructure” I can intuitively get at what you meant, but what you said was “the up down,” or in terms of an actual building, “the basement penthouse.”

    Reading comprehension depends for its “foundational superstructure” on comprehensible writing.

    ““Aggravated assault” is different, there is an aggravating factor, such as the use of a weapon or application of deadly force . . .”

    My great grandfather’s defense was, “But I only hit him once.”

  56. kfg,

    “Superstructure” was a typo. I was typing on my phone while out and it must’ve auto-corrected to superstructure and I didn’t notice.

    I meant “substructure.”

    Temper your pedantic nature to take into account technical difficulties and limitations. I got my point across and that’s all that matters. Same as Trump viz a viz his lack of eloquence in his delivery.

  57. My great grandfather’s defense was, “But I only hit him once.”

    Must not have been too aggravated.

  58. @KJ: “I don’t believe my 9mm’s are enough to survive a collapse very long.”

    Ah, well, there ya go. You expect to survive. I know I’m going to die. I expect the collapse to kill me. Doesn’t mean I can’t go down fighting.

    Which is completely relevant to what I would do if I had shuffled the deck and drawn the Ace of Spades. Most people think the two questions are the same, and you are implying that you think that as well (like a foundational superstructure), but they are radically different.

  59. There is a distinct possibility that “the collapse” has already taken place. Thereby causing the gradual failure of support systems slowly giving those that are able, adequate time to learn a new old way of life.

  60. @KJ

    Seeing these BS wars we’ve been in

    Do you clean your guns or just let them rust to shit?

    Currently, we let the hajjis immigrate, but we can turn off the spigot. If we have rusty weapons, they may overrun our border.

  61. stuffinbox
    There is a distinct possibility that “the collapse” has is already takening place.

    FIFY.

  62. kfg,

    Already addressed my superstructure typo, yet you use it as a weapon to hit me again. Do it again. Third time’s the charm.

    Why should I listen to anything you say if you’re expressing such nihilism? It’s the philosophy of death.

    I want to live, to survive, to rebuild. I’ll certainly fight if necessary – and I am as we speak, on the mental level – but I’m not going into any fights thinking like a member of Napoleon’s Forlorn Hope Brigade or like I’m in a trench at the Somme in 1915. Sure, I’m going to die someday; we all have our appointment. But I’m going to do the best I can to survive, as long as possible, by winning.

    I’m going to do so much winning that I might get tired of winning… But, probably not.

  63. @KJ: ““Superstructure” was a typo.”

    Fair enough. But you might want to be concerned that I couldn’t tell something like that had happened. It looked perfectly typical of the sort of thing you might write.

    @YC: “The internet didn’t exist until about a generation ago.”

    When I was born artificial satellites and two American states didn’t exist. When my great aunt (my oldest living relative) was born, traffic cones, a Charlie Chaplin movie, and the Italian Tyrol didn’t exist, but the Austro-Hungarian Empire did.

    It’s amazing how much things can change in a single generation, but how much things can change in a single lifetime can really put the whole change thang into perspective.

  64. kfg,

    “Fair enough. But you might want to be concerned that I couldn’t tell something like that had happened. It looked perfectly typical of the sort of thing you might write.”

    Gimme a break.

    You’re wasting your time here. You should be teaching “I Know Everything 101” at Harvard.

  65. lol my ex-wife’s uncle was an old school cowboy. Cattle drives, rode a horse, lived on the range etc and he lived to see the early days of the Internet

  66. @kfg

    Ah, well, there ya go. You expect to survive. I know I’m going to die. I expect the collapse to kill me. Doesn’t mean I can’t go down fighting.

    I don’t fight like a Marine, who never retreats…I retreat and gather forces for eventual victory, like Geo. Washington. I don’t rely on personal fighting ability if I can avoid it. Doesn’t mean I can’t fight…there’s just no percentage in doing it if I can use better weapons.

    Victory through overwhelming betapower…the utility of the beta.

    Social skills, frame, self-confidence, and a sense of entitlement will allow alphas to survive by relying on the skills of betas…civilization will morph, but not disappear. You can craft your own little patriarchal kingdom from the bottom up.

  67. “Already addressed my superstructure typo, yet you use it as a weapon to hit me again.”

    There’s this shit called “time.” Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

    “Why should I listen to anything you say if you’re expressing such nihilism?”

    I know you have internet access. Did you know you can look up the meaning of words on the internet before you use them? I only mean to poke you with a pointy stick, not punch you in the jaw, but come on, you leaned right in to that one.

    You are going to die. Something is going to take you out. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe 60 years from tomorrow. But it’s going to happen. Simple fact all grown ups know.

    Many devout Christians (i.e. not nihilists by definition) plan their lives around the idea that they could die in just five minutes.

    “No point buildin’ that thar, ’cause ta cricks just gonna riiize in ta spring and wash it plumb away” ain’t nihilism. It’s just plain horse sense.

    It is a deductive fact that if a collapse happens, it will kill me, but a pretty solid deduction. If nothing else the medical care required to get me through another 60 years is unlikely to be available.

    I’d love to take the cycling World Hour Record for 120+ year olds, but what’s love got to do with it?

  68. Ton
    Let me know if that not washing them off works for you.

    My chops were to salty for me but everyone else loved them

    How long are you soaking them?

  69. Depends on the number and thickness of the chops

    In this case over night, they were all bone in and about 1 &1/2″ thick and I had 14 of them

    Everyone loved them but me. Reckon I am not that big a fan of salt

  70. kfg,

    What’s the point of your last post? Just give me the summary. You know I’m not as bright as you (none are); I’ve read it three times and still can’t understand what you’re getting at. It makes absolutely no sense to me in the context of a reply to the last post I addressed to you.

  71. Excuse me, post before last. I know your hyper-pedantic nature won’t let that detail pass.

  72. “I don’t fight like a Marine, who never retreats…I retreat and gather forces for eventual victory, like Geo. Washington.”

    Mall Ninjas will be in the 1.5 wave to die. I think I’ll at least make it longer than that. I have addressed some of these issues, but I’m not going get into it here. And most of the survival blogs are filled up with clueless nutters who think they’re going Rambo their way through.

    I remember a video of a guy who spent two years putting together a bug-out bag before he went out in the field to try it out.

    Didn’t last the night. I wasn’t surprised, but he had to learn the hard way. At least he did it before an actual bug-out.

    Q: Why do Estonians “water” their flower beds with motor oil?
    A: To keep their guns from rusting.

  73. @Kid jupiter Esquire

    You are in your 40s and just becoming set in your ways. Twenty years from now they will be in stone. Consider this before you disrespect your elders,on their methods of deduction,if you cannot be taught at your age how much less in 20 more.

    For myself Disrespect to elders(unless they are dangerously out of line) is bad karma and will bring about much unnescessarry pain and suffering.

  74. stuffinbox,

    Wow, just when I thought this whole thing couldn’t get any weirder, you post that.

    There are some serious loose screws bouncing around here.

  75. “Excuse me, post before last.”

    See? That’s that “time” thing right there.

    “You should be teaching “I Know Everything 101” at Harvard.”

    Oh. Hey. Another funny. I’m going to have to enjoy this one by myself, but the peanut gallery can extrapolate from the former. I’ll throw this into the mix though:

    Now MIT was MIT when Harvard was a pup
    And MIT’ll be MIT when Harvard’s time is up
    And if any Harvard sonofabitch, thinks he’s in our class
    He can pucker up his rosy lips and kiss the beaver’s ass

    Princeton’s run by Wellesley, and Wellesley’s run by Yale
    And Yale is run by Vasser, and Vasser’s run by tail
    Harvard’s run by stiff pricks, the kind you raise by hand
    But MIT’s run by engineers, the finest in the land

    “You know I’m not as bright as you (none are) . . .”

    Don’t be silly. There’s at least seven and might be as many as twelve. Once you get above about four standard deviations the precision breaks down to about a standard deviation, and above that it’s a bit of direct comparison deal. There aren’t enough data points to form a valid statistical base. In effect everyone out there is an outlier.

  76. stuffinbox,

    Thanks, Pops!

    kfg,

    Once again, I don’t understand you. What does the “time” reference mean? The rest is blah blah blah

  77. @kfg

    kfg,
    Once again, I don’t understand you. What does the “time” reference mean? The rest is blah blah blah

    I think we need a lower shelf for the cookies.

  78. ASD,

    I don’t eat cookies. How about something constructive? I don’t understand what he’s talking about.

  79. @kfg

    Mall Ninjas will be in the 1.5 wave to die.

    I’d pick people who have hiked the Appalachian Trail, outdoors enthusiasts, and one or two SWAT team or SF men, a mechanic, a machinist, a doctor/medic…maybe 20 people…cross-train people so that we have two apprentices and one expert for all specialties. We’d figure out where we’re lacking and recruit the skills needed.

  80. While Kid Jupiter does, lord knows what at this point, I look forward to seeing Kathy Griffin, Lida Bloom, Alec Baldwin and Jim Carey’s defense of Bill Mahers right to be edgy as a comedian and his “house nigger” jibe…

    Please tweet their responses…

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