The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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theasdgamer
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@KJ

All I said was that the guy paid her way

Do you know what “sunk cost” is?

kfg
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kfg
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” GET A FUCKING SENSE OF HUMOR! ” And that 7.6 on the Richter scale you just felt was the world face palming in unison. “kfg basically called me a ‘barbarian’ because I’m Sicilian.” No. I was able to identify you as Sicilian from your empirically exhibited behavior. I noted that from a Western Civ point of view you would be considered a barbarian, and did so only because you expressed the idea that you wished to be part of Western Civ. If you wish to be part of Sicilian Civ, that’s cool, but note that Vox Day (whom you… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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I’d like to modify it for Ton:

“Every moment of every day, I’m smelling my own brand. And I enjoy it.”

kfg
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kfg
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@KH: ” I’m actually not sure right now how to steer my thoughts in your direction.”

That Red Pill you put in your mouth? Swallow it.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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^^ Ditto, for kfg.

kfg
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kfg
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@SFC Ton: “LOL I do a lot of shit for the lol’s KFG”

At every moment of every day, life is trying to kill you. Sooner or later it will succeed.

You can laugh about it or cry about it. You’ll enjoy the ride a lot more if you laugh about it.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Wow, kfg, you really are a piece of work. Now I’m not “a part of Western Civilization” because I’m Sicilian?

Last I checked, Sicily was part of Italy. Sicily was also a part of the Roman Empire, and a very important part, because of it’s location. The Roman Empire is the foundation of Western Civ; Rome civilized Europe. And, although they never subdued Germania, Roman influence couldn’t help but seep into Germanic culture, as well.

You REALLY love the smell of your own brand, kfg. Maybe moreso than Ton, as you try to come off much more intellectually and highbrow.

anon
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anon
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Lol kfg. Now you’re just showing off.

anon
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anon
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Most northern Italians don’t see a lot of difference between Sicily and Ethiopia.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Is that right, anon? “Most?” Name a few. You obviously have a huge sample base to chose from. Let’s hear it, straight from the horses’ mouths.

kfg
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kfg
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“Now I’m not “a part of Western Civilization” because I’m Sicilian?” Reading comprehension? Why are you asking me? I told you to ask Vox Day. We can add “message vs. messenger” confusion to your “ought vs. is” confusion. “Last I checked, Sicily was part of Italy.” Swallow the Red Pill and check again. Hint: Italy has been waging a genocidal war against the Austrian Tyrol for the last century. “Sicily was also a part of the Roman Empire, and a very important part, because of it’s location.” So was Palestine, which is why Rome fell. London is now Islam. Because… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Most northern Italians don’t see a lot of difference between Sicily and Ethiopia.”

Q.E.D. Although “to the left” they’re French rather than Austrian.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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kfg, you’re crossing the line, guy. Check yourself.

anon
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anon
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Kid:
I can’t remember all the names (I lived there for a couple of years).
Suffice it to say you’d have to beat up a lot of people.
I guess a picture is worth a thousand words though:

http://alphadesigner.com/wp-content/uploads/europe-according-to-italy.png

(my bad, everything south of Rome is like Ethiopia)

kfg
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kfg
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“kfg, you’re crossing the line, guy. Check yourself.”

Q.E.D. And according to SJF’s Dictum, I have explicitly declared my frame.

You are free to deal with it exactly as you wish, between social structure equals, but you are not the Secret King who can order it away. You might wish to do what Vox Day did – establish your own Kingdom where you are the overt King by right, although it’s only fair to note that being a King has social consequences.

Hence one of my own maxims:

If a woman demands that she be treated like a princess – Do It!

kfg
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kfg
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@anon:

STOP CALLING ME A THIEF!

stuffinbox
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stuffinbox
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@kfg

“@anon:

STOP CALLING ME A THIEF!”

They got it wrong your a babysitter.

theasdgamer
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where are the women with braided armpit hair and hairy legs on the map?

theasdgamer
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@KJ

Did you notice that the water running down your back was warm?

stuffinbox
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stuffinbox
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“where are the women with braided armpit hair and hairy legs on the map?”

Now who’s crossing the line? Don’t be steeling my woman asd.

theasdgamer
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@anon

Most northern Italians don’t see a lot of difference between Sicily and Ethiopia.

Most Italians want to leave Italy, per my sister who lives there.

Bromeo
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Bromeo
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@kj

What if it wasn’t G but some random guy at the club that she smashed? You’re coming from a blue pill mindset.

rugby11
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rugby11
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Creation and observation

kfg
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kfg
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“What if it wasn’t G but some random guy at the club that she smashed?”

G was some random guy at the club.

Q: What are the odds of my shuffling a deck and pulling the Ace of Spades off the top?
A: 1 in 52.

Q: I have just shuffled a deck and pulled the Ace of Spades off the top. What are the odds against that?
A: 0

Not understanding the above gets a shit ton of people into a shit ton of trouble.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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I think kfg’s sharp stick should be gold plated and held in reverence.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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ASD, Good one. I actually anticipated that. I get a point for an assist. Fyi, the water was cold. No golden showers here. Sorry if I ruined your voyeuristic fantasy. kfg, To bring ethnicity into an internet comment section such as this was a bad move. My Sicilian heritage has nothing to do with anything; I was born and reared in the US, both my parents were college educated, intelligent, well-spoken people, honorable, respected in the community, by people of ALL ethnicities and backgrounds. My dad served this country for 22 years as a US Navy officer, then retired and… Read more »

ChunkyMonkey
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ChunkyMonkey
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I see where Kid Jupiter is coming from. I think he’s pointing out that the situation described by Goldmund is not good i.e. there’s nothing in it to be celebrated, regardless of hypergamy, and if this behaviour goes unchecked at a societal wide level, then there isn’t going to be much of a civilisation left. I can only relate this back to my Mother’s disapproval of my Sister’s manipulative behaviour. Clearly both my Mother and Sister are hypergamous, however, my Mother was brought up in a time when behaviour like my Sister’s was shamed, ostracised, and she chose (partially due… Read more »

theasdgamer
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stuff, wood I do that? I hain’t even meated your broad

ChunkyMonkey
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p.s. Just to be absolutely clear, I’m not saying that RM is celebrating Goldumd’s story, rather it’s being used to highlight the workings of hypergamy, that’s not in dispute.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Get ready for the insults, Chunky.

“You’re so blue pill”
“You’re a beta”
“Ought vs Is”

Etc

Can’t even bring stuff like this up without them throwing shit at you.

These guys are so predictable.

Blaximus
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Blaximus
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@ Kid I think you’re missing the crux of what kfg was communicating. Your giving too much weight to the ethnicity part and glossing over the western civ thing. If one considers himself ” american ” or ” part of western civ “, then heritage mostly becomes a mute point in the larger thought. You’re foregoing heritage for another identity that’s more current and inline with reality. Adopting western civ without regard to original heritage. Sicily has a very interesting history, to put it mildly. But I’m not into telling people anything about their heritage. Kfg is spot on that… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@KJ

Good one. I actually anticipated that. I get a point for an assist.

If you’d kept quiet about it, you’d have gotten a point.

Sorry if I ruined your voyeuristic fantasy.

Believe it or not, I don’t want pics of Ton peeing down your back.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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ASD,

Nah. I get a point for an assist.

Setting up your teammates to score one at your expense and laugh about it together is a part of male bonding and a display of self-confidence: you’re confident enough in yourself to take a joke and even set one up at your own expense.

anon
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anon
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kfg: STOP CALLING ME A THIEF!”

Sorry. I’m…internally conflicted. Half of me even thinks the other half of me is a third world country.

http://alphadesigner.com/art-store/europe-according-to-switzerland-print/

kfg
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kfg
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“I think he’s pointing out that the situation described by Goldmund is not good i.e. there’s nothing in it to be celebrated, regardless of hypergamy, and if this behaviour goes unchecked at a societal wide level, then there isn’t going to be much of a civilisation left.” That is one of the two points he has actually managed to make clearly. Yeah. “To bring ethnicity into an internet comment section such as this was a bad move.” As I have said, it belongs at Vox Popoli or Gates of Vienna, at least so far as it does not relate to… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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kfg,

Keep diggin’. You’re almost at burial deprh.

Was that “Godfather” enough? I am Sicilian, after all…

kfg
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kfg
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http://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/New-Yorkers-View-of-the-World.jpg

This is why one of my stock jokes is, “I mean Upstate as in north of Albany, not as in north of 95th Street.”

Chump No More
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Chump No More
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Lol, @Blax, I had you for that area, from previous comments.

I know Bloomfield (and Holstens) well… Spent some time in Glen Ridge, Montclair & surroundings.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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kfg,

“That is one of the two points he has actually managed to make clearly. Yeah.”

As I’ve said already, I’m throwing around some ideas, hypotheticals, while you’re having an endless debate and attempting to put me into a Struggle Session. You’re exhausting and irritating. Not everything has to be turned into Debate Club.

Maybe you’re too ‘intellectual’ for your own good. Go to the gym, exercise, play outside. Get your body moving to alleviate some of the mental strain you appear to be under.

That is what “IS”

Roused
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Roused
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“You’re backpedalling now”

Each time you show start to chill out and engage without getting all triggered you can’t but help not step on your own dick you start again.

Impressive resume. You posting it reminds me of the bodybuilders I’ve photographed. Begging for attention and pining for validation. That’s what Facebook is for, not The Rational Male.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Roused,

Post something constructive and positive once in awhile and maybe then I’ll give a fuck about your opinion of me. You’re a constant ball of negativity and a real dick.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Oh, and stop referencing your Playgirl photoshoots. This is The Rational Male, not Grindr.

Roused
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Roused
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“then I’ll give a fuck about your opinion of me”

What makes you think I care anything about you or your opinion?

kfg
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kfg
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“Go to the gym, exercise, play outside. Get your body moving to alleviate some of the mental strain you appear to be under.”

Oh. Hey. You actually said something funny. Good show.

ChunkyMonkey
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ChunkyMonkey
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Hey chaps, a good discussion so far, but less ad-hominem would make it better.

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Chunky, I’m of the same opinion.

Unfortunately, that’s what passes for constructive dialogue here, since there’s no moderator. It’s a shame.

I’m just playing along – when in Rome, do as the Sicilians.

kfg
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kfg
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“I’m throwing around some ideas . . .”

Here’s an idea. Just something to think about. What if . . .

. . . you unplugged from the Matrix, made it through the period of hurting eyes without clawing them out, found your way Zion and took up life in the really true world, only to find out . . .

. . . Zion itself was a construct of the Matrix?

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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kfg, I’m outta gas with this, brother. You keep saying the same thing, in different ways. But, your preaching to the choir, because I’ve been through the “hurting eyes” period and I see clearly RP reality. Believe me, I see it, I experience it, and when my eyes were first painfully opened, it hurt like a MFer. I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete… Read more »

Sentient
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Sentient
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Mr. Brightside still isn’t getting it. He isn’t going to get it.

Kid – you think after KFG susses out your regional ethnicity based on less than 500 words you’d sit back and make a genuine good faith effort to understand what is obvious by your own posts what you don’t undestand. Many have been incredibly patient with you.

Sentient
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Sentient
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Now he will take up his ball(s?) And go home. It’s a thing.

Sentient
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Sentient
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But the bass player thing totally makes sense…

Kid Jupiter
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Kid Jupiter
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Sentient,

Now you’re gaslighting me.

My ethnicity has nothing to do with my stated positions. A guy of Polish descent, Russian, Japanese, English, etc could have the same position. Congrats to kfg, he guessed Sicilian. I bet you guys even have a mental picture of what I look like, too, based on all the mob movies you’ve watched.

Now you profess to have an occult knowledge of bass players, too. Because all bass players are the same, right? Geddy Lee from Rush and Cliff Williams from AC/DC – same instrument, same vibe, right?

The Struggle Session continues…

Yollo Comanche
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Yollo Comanche
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Welp. Being a Psychopath beats having the deserved contempt of people you learn to expect nothing but disapproval from. It’s almost like psychopaths learn to manipulate from their parents or something.

Boxcar
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Boxcar
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@Chunky Monkey

I am not going to defend Goldmund, or anyone else in that little story. But I just wanted to challenge your ethical perspective (what would society be like, if everyone acted that way), because it goes to the heart of TRP. The common RP suggestions that men never marry or have children, if acted on by everyone, would have pretty unpleasant consequences for society as a whole. But I would never say that a man has an ethical responsibility to sacrifice himself, just for the sake of society.

Keith
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Keith
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Chunky monkey About your sister. I have raised girls I have 17 and a 19 year old daughter. I got female cousins and aunts and mom. Just buried grandmaw last year. Let me tell you. You in no uncertain terms cannot control your sister. Only other females control the behavior of females.you cannot shame a woman only other weman can do that. Good attention or bad attention does not matter only attention matters. Or as some say there is no bad press. I got cousin we call her BB she got this name for fucking 2 guys in bathroom at… Read more »

SFC Ton
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SFC Ton
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Who you kin folk are is legit area of inquiry given that upwards of 80% of our personality is inherited.

stuffinbox
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stuffinbox
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Blackstone “The absolute rights of man, considered as a free agent, endowed with discernment to know good from evil, and with power of choosing those measures which appear to him to be most desirable, are usually summed up in one general appellation, and denominated the natural liberty of mankind. This natural liberty consists properly in a power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, unless by the law of nature: being a right inherent in us by birth, and one of the gifts of God to man at his creation, when he endowed him with the… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it.” And there are places to do that, but it is the obverse of what TRM is about. You are pointing north and saying “south.” Turn your compass card 180 degrees in… Read more »

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Kid Jupiter
I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it.

Pretty tall order. How about working up to that? Build a perpetual motion machine first.
Should be easy for someone with a law degree.

SFC Ton
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The common RP suggestions that men never marry or have children, if acted on by everyone, would have pretty unpleasant consequences for society as a whole. Boxcar ………. It’s a concern I understand but one I dismiss. What has society done lately to earn any sort of loyalty or concern for its well being? Loyalty etc has to be a two way street Things can and are going to get worse because society has turned it’s back on those who made it worthwhile. There is no realistic large scale turning back. And I am OK with that. To much civilization… Read more »

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@Kid Jupiter Esquire

It would appear that you are unable to convince 12 jurors of a crime.

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And there are places to do that, but it is the obverse of what TRM is about. Right. TRM is about a bottoms up approach. It’s not about top down saving culture or society from itself. And that is where the admonition to acknowledge how things are, rather than how they ought to be. In the OP, Goldmund formulated a situation report in his head. He then acted based on that as things unfolded. A lot of guys have come to the manosphere and decided that it must be a socio-cultural thing that was the problem with their own agency… Read more »

SFC Ton
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Kid jackass is a lawyer? That pretty much sums up everything wrong with him….. and most of western civilization he seems to be fond of…. while at the same time destroying it

stuffinbox
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@Ton

Here is his credentials hangin on the desk.

“My dad served this country for 22 years as a US Navy officer, then retired and worked for the Dept of the Navy as a civilian. I’m college educated, have a law degree, passed two bar exams. We’re a part of Western Civ, US society, and we’ve earned it.”

kfg
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@Sentient: “But the bass player thing totally makes sense…” Could be worse. Could be a drummer. @Stuffin Box: Vox Day would point out that the principle reason that Blackstone could write that was because Blackstone was English. The literal history (that is to say put down in writing) of that philosophy has roots that go back to Alfred the Great, and the cultural history (that is to say how people thought and behaved) goes back further than that, as Alfred’s project was to collect and collate what already was practice. Confucius wrote down some rather different ideas, because he had… Read more »

SFC Ton
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I didn’t doubt you brother but it pretry much explains things.

Does anyone around here give a fuck about his schooling or parents? And isn’t that sort of apeal a logical fallacy?

kfg
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“Kid jackass is a lawyer?”

And one who thinks that if a cop didn’t eyewitness it, it’s hearsay, and thus unprosecutable.

kfg
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“And isn’t that sort of apeal a logical fallacy?”

It’s an apology for the What About ME? fallacy.

kfg
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And the What About ME? fallacy is the personal variant of the Appeal to Undesirable Consequences fallacy.

SFC Ton
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Lol been awhile since I studied logic but I thought that fallacy was apeal to authority or some such

What I do remember is walking away from it all becuase none of it stacks up to the real world of fuck up shit we live in

stuffinbox
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@kfg

I am getting the sense that the course is being charted back on topic.

Where the utility of the beta,leaves a man feeling like a tool,left out in the rain.

While another man feels as a craftsman.

Kid Jupiter
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Ton, You’ve become a nihlist. Your over the top bravado and bluster betray a’sensitive core; you’re over-compensating. I can understand your jadedness- you’ve been in the trenches in the service, fighting hajis to “defend your country,” probably seen some real gruesome shit. (In quotes, because those wars are BS and only in certain people’s interests – certainly not yours or mine.. but let’s not get too far afield here.) Then you come back and see the shit going on home and say, “what the fuck did I put my ass on the line for?” So chicks can run rampant, doing… Read more »

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Appeal to Authority: It’s true because he said so. Ipse Dixit.

Appeal to Consequences: It can’t/must be true because it would mean something good/bad would also be true/happen.

But What About ME?: It can’t be true, because it would apply to me.

stuffinbox
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Fallacy? It is better to ask forgiveness than be denied permission.

SFC Ton
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I am not without sympathy for the blight of betas but 1st step of beta recovery is owning your shit

You’ll be stuck in bitch mode as long as you excuse your failures

SFC Ton
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Now you have magical pyshcolgical profiling powers?

SFC Ton
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You wouldn’t have to defend your shit if you weren’t pedalling bullshit

ChunkyMonkey
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@BoxCar Good question, I suppose what’s going on at large is a grand game of prisoner’s dilemma. I think if you look back several generations, there was the tacit realisation that everyone is better off if each individual could trust and co-operate with each other (with the government as a backstop to stop people reneging on contracts, and I think that might be part of the problem today, in that the government are allowing specific groups of people to renege on certain contracts like marriage without consequence). I think we’re moving away from that towards the pimp/whore/trick societal model that… Read more »

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kfg, I was describing simple assault with my “cop not witnessing it” thing. “Simple assault” is a “disorderly person” offense in most jurisdictions. A DP is a low-level misdemeanor, no arrests are made. “Aggravated assault” is different, there is an aggravating factor, such as the use of a weapon or application of deadly force that doesn’t result in actual death (bc then you’re dealing with homicide). Then an arrest is made and the state does the prosecution. Most fistfights are covered under simple assault, provided no weapons were used. These are not prosecuted by the state on it’s own; a… Read more »

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“But, my question is if we let things collapse, then what? ”

Then we don’t get smashed by the imminent cave in while in futile effort to prop shit up for assholes that won’t lift a finger to save their own asses.

And hopefully keep our own safe as this is a full time job in and of itself,thereby carrying on the survival of our progeny.

Better stay strong and out from under the “machine”.

Kid Jupiter
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Ton,

If I’m “peddling bullshit,” then just ignore me. You keep responding, attacking.

kfg
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“But, my question is if we let things collapse, then what?” I have a Morakniv Companion on body. I have a Fiskars hatchet within reach. Six paces away there is an axe handle by the outward opening, refrigerator hung door (the harder you push it, the tighter it’s closed). Die biting the throat. I’m not a tough guy, just not blind and unprepared. ” . . . underlying superstructure . . . ” Down is Up, Brother. Do you use language like that in contracts? “It just seems like a waste of time to get into nonstop shit-throwing . .… Read more »

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stuffin,

Chunky said it perfectly, in response to Ton:

“I’m not being flippant, and I’m saying this with complete sincerity, unless you live on a desert island you can’t dismiss or ignore society turning to chaos, because it will drag you down with it.”

There’s no place to hide if shit collapses.

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kfg,

Your guns and hatchets and and axehandles and teeth aren’t a legitimate response to the question.

I don’t believe my 9mm’s are enough to survive a collapse very long. Nor my knives or my teeth. I’d rather work toward avoiding a collapse in the first place.

SFC Ton
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I’m not being flippant, and I’m saying this with complete sincerity, unless you live on a desert island you can’t dismiss or ignore society turning to chaos, because it will drag you down with it. Chunk Monkey LOL I live on a pensuial with 6 other familes….. does that count? No its a legit point CM, but there is nothing that can be done for society. There are things I can do to maximize my family’s long term potential. Those things I can do, I have done and contuine to improve things as I see new opportunities even after my… Read more »

SFC Ton
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Ps, don’t forget to wash the brine off your pork chops before you throw them on the smoker

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@Boxcar “I am not going to defend Goldmund, or anyone else in that little story. But I just wanted to challenge your ethical perspective (what would society be like, if everyone acted that way), because it goes to the heart of TRP. The common RP suggestions that men never marry or have children, if acted on by everyone, would have pretty unpleasant consequences for society as a whole. But I would never say that a man has an ethical responsibility to sacrifice himself, just for the sake of society.” We would reach that point and then we’d adapt. The internet… Read more »

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There’s no place to hide if shit collapses.

Maybe. Mel Tappan thought otherwise. He never got to test his ideas. Search on his name.
Kid, your’e not the first to notice that things are breaking, not by a long shot. But act as though you are. That’s one of your problems.

SFC Ton
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I remember Tappan

stuffinbox
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“Ps, don’t forget to wash the brine off your pork chops before you throw them on the smoker”

Thin sliced tri tip and boneless beef ribs marinating in sea salt beer and honey not washing em off before smoking on rocky mnt maple.

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ChunkyMonkey
Which leaves people who can see the problems, and whom want to operate on a principle of trust and co-operation (i.e. the old set of rules), with a rather difficult dilemma.

For those people the world becomes something like concentric circles. Family and kin and some friends are in the inner, high trust circle. Neighbors in a further out circle. Etc. It means some people get a lot of trust, some get a little, some get none. This isn’t exactly new. Rural folks grew up this way in some places.

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Anon Reader,

“Kid, your’e not the first to notice that things are breaking, not by a long shot. But act as though you are. That’s one of your problems.”

Worthless comment. It’s not true, and accomplishes nothing.

kfg
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@KJ: “I was . . .” That may be what you meant, but it isn’t what you said. We read what you say, respond to that, then get taken to task for lacking “reading comprehension” because we didn’t read your mind and figure out what you really meant. In the case of “foundational superstructure” I can intuitively get at what you meant, but what you said was “the up down,” or in terms of an actual building, “the basement penthouse.” Reading comprehension depends for its “foundational superstructure” on comprehensible writing. ““Aggravated assault” is different, there is an aggravating factor, such… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
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kfg,

“Superstructure” was a typo. I was typing on my phone while out and it must’ve auto-corrected to superstructure and I didn’t notice.

I meant “substructure.”

Temper your pedantic nature to take into account technical difficulties and limitations. I got my point across and that’s all that matters. Same as Trump viz a viz his lack of eloquence in his delivery.

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My great grandfather’s defense was, “But I only hit him once.”

Must not have been too aggravated.

kfg
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@KJ: “I don’t believe my 9mm’s are enough to survive a collapse very long.”

Ah, well, there ya go. You expect to survive. I know I’m going to die. I expect the collapse to kill me. Doesn’t mean I can’t go down fighting.

Which is completely relevant to what I would do if I had shuffled the deck and drawn the Ace of Spades. Most people think the two questions are the same, and you are implying that you think that as well (like a foundational superstructure), but they are radically different.

stuffinbox
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There is a distinct possibility that “the collapse” has already taken place. Thereby causing the gradual failure of support systems slowly giving those that are able, adequate time to learn a new old way of life.

theasdgamer
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@KJ

Seeing these BS wars we’ve been in

Do you clean your guns or just let them rust to shit?

Currently, we let the hajjis immigrate, but we can turn off the spigot. If we have rusty weapons, they may overrun our border.

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stuffinbox
There is a distinct possibility that “the collapse” has is already takening place.

FIFY.

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