The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

1,119 comments on “The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

  1. I’d like Goldmund to follow up with the girl on what happend next… I bet it went something like this…

    Aussie: Did you fuck that guy!!!
    Girl: Do you think I’m just some slut that fucks strangers in the bathroom?!!!
    Aussie: Well you came back all red… Ah ehhhmm… Uh…
    Girl: So you’re calling me. Slut! You pervert!!!
    Aussie: I uh… No… I mean.. I don’t know.. Uh….
    Girl: You said you loved me. If you REALLY loved me you would never accuse me of anything like this!!!!
    Aussie: uh baby… I DO love you… I’m sorry I just… Ahhh…. I’m sorry!! Forgive me!!!
    Girl: You’re just like all the other guys.
    Aussie: No baby. I’m sorry. I’m not. I’ll prove it to you!!!
    Girl: We’ll see.. I just.. I can’t even… I’m going to take a bath.

  2. Last time I’m saying it. Only repeating on more time:

    Goldmund picking up the chick in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. The context he did it in, the brazenness of it, does. I’ve detailed why; I believe it’s dishonorable and short-sighted.

    It was definitely a good object lesson on what hypergamy is capable of, but I also think it’s irresponsible to pass this off as something guys can get away with outside the context in which G lives and operates.

    Don’t disrespect the Sky God and not expecr repercussions. I’m not talking about me, I’m just the Kid. I’m talking about the concepts the Sky God respresents.

    Now, I real estate to go close and sinple wills to draft. Have at it, fellas.

  3. “… I bet it went something like this…”

    I wouldn’t bet on it, but I’m afraid that it might well have. The guy has taken the lab, but he doesn’t have anyone to give him the theory. If he doesn’t do The Google Search he’ll have a hard time coming to make sense of it.

    Even if it didn’t go down that way, he’ll still probably end up at NAWALT.

  4. @Kid Jupiter,

    I’ve enjoyed reading your comments. You are a principled man. I respect that.

    Yet forget about all the other commenters right now and how you feel about them, and then seriously consider this point:

    At no point in your comments have you every said that THE GIRL is the psychopath (psychopath: uncaring person with shallow emotions).

    She accepts an expensive plane ride to America knowing the Aussie likes her and will want some action and takes the ticket anyway. She gets there and stays in his room and knowingly flirts with Goldmund in front of him and them fucks Goldmund at the same bar at the Aussie.

    We call this “psychopathy” hypergamy, but I’d argue that if you must throw the psychopath label at anybody, it should be at the girl first.

    All the older regulars here agree with you on principles, but we feel your ire is misdirected. Sure you criticized the girl for her behavior, but you don’t throw the psycho label at her, only at the men reacting to her behavior. If you go back and read the comments and ignore the ribbing and joshing aspects of the comments, you’ll see more agreement than disagreement.

  5. @Kid Jupiter

    A major part of the many Blue Pill ideals Betas try to realize through the use of Red Pill tools is the hope of “vanquishing” an “Evil” man, in order to purchase the right to THEN flood the bitch with neediness and validation-seeking. It’s just one more step. Making every man in the world responsible for making sure your Beta game succeeds works in a Beta’s head because he stupidly believes every “real” man is trying to get pussy the same way; HIS socially approved way.

    But he’s playing the sucker’s game. Some men don’t WANT to be suckers.

  6. “At no point in your comments have you every said that THE GIRL is the psychopath . . .”

    To be fair, he has said that she has the attributes that would be considered psychopathic if she were a man. Ironically, given the venue, it is his absolute rejection of an equalist frame that is part of what is getting him into “trouble” here. Which I’m sure contributes to his confusion over being “attacked.”

  7. Sentient
    I bet it went something like this…

    I don’t LOL much, but LOL. Because it’s true.

  8. Once upon a time years ago I accidentally triggered a little party girl in a social non-party context by labeling her with the nickname “Teasey”. She got all up in my face with “Are you calling me a TEASER?” but her friends dragged her away before I got my answer out. She had a whole rationalization hamster-run full of reasons why her cock teasing behavior was anything but teasing.

    I never apologized for that and her friend kept hanging around me, it was a mystery at the time. Gosh, I must have been frustrating to those girls. Almost as though I was clit teasing them.

  9. KJ: The kids in Podunk won’t listen — they are the enlisted material, remember?

    I doubt there is a per-capita difference, by population density, in bathroom-lays-by-not-the-escort.

  10. @kfg, I must have missed that comment. perhaps I should put it another way with analogy:

    All of us have “debate lanes” we choose to lead with as the most important to us. Kid chooses to lead with the “guys should do what’s noble” debate lane. The older guys here choose to lead with the “cats are cats, so it’s our burden and responsibility to master them” debate lane.

    Red Pill more closely follows the cats are cats lane. This lane is where mastery lies.
    White Knights and principled betas more closely follow the noble lane. This lane is the lane where frustration rules the day. I don’t think Kid’s a white knight, but he is frustrated with the system as it is.

  11. I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it.

    This is all a waste of time and mental energy. I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal

  12. Kid
    Last time I’m saying it

    Heh.

    Goldmund picking up the chick in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. The context he did it in, the brazenness of it, does. I’ve detailed why; I believe it’s dishonorable and short-sighted.

    The context is part of the pickup. Why you can’t or won’t see this is curious. Lack of experience?

    Your “dishonorable” is laughable. By the older, more tradtional standards of honor Aussie guy was dishonorable in bringing that girl over in the first place for any purpose other than (a) supervised employment or (b) marriage. By the older standards you don’t have any more honor than Casanova did.

    Your “dishonerable” reminds me of the old joke that ends “We know what you are, we’re just dickering about price”. Most 25 year olds haven’t heard that joke, though.

  13. @SJB:

    I once knew a girl who you could trigger by looking at and saying, “Cornfield.”

    Just because in a small town everyone knows what you’ve been doing almost before you do, doesn’t mean it doesn’t get done.

  14. newlyaloof
    All of us have “debate lanes” we choose to lead with as the most important to us. Kid chooses to lead with the “guys should do what’s noble” debate lane. The older guys here choose to lead with the “cats are cats, so it’s our burden and responsibility to master them” debate lane.

    Concise. Concur.

  15. Not to be morbid here, but you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be? (Don’t misread that as a barbaric Sicilian threat. It’s a legit question.)

    I’m going to follow Mickey Mantle’s Yankee Stadium monument:

    “A Great Teammate.”

    That’s how I want to be remembered. As a great teammate on all the “teams” I’ve played on. Guys always knew I had their back and would do my best to pick them up.

    How do you want to be remembered?

    BTW, I’m being cremated. Burial in a cemetery is a vainglorious waste of real estate that someone like me could be closing.

  16. Newly

    How are things?

    I don’t think Kid’s a white knight, but he is frustrated with the system as it is.

    The worst kind of WK is the one who is doing it to other dudes – on behalf of All Women.

  17. This is all a waste of time and mental energy. I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal

    Precisely correct, Morpheus.

    Over the last almost 10 or so years in the sphere, though, it’s become plain to me that there are some guys who, dispositionally, can’t accept this. They’re not all WKs, many of them accept most of the red pill, but they can’t accept the piece about how the broader issues are not solvable, and must be accepted as the context moving forward, meaning focus on *you* and your life, and not “broader issues”. It’s important to *understand* the broader context, of course, in order to adapt to it profitably in your own life, but a focus on *changing* that context is where some guys just dispositionally can’t accept it. I remember a similar thing on the other blog you used to contribute to where some guy eventually came to the conclusion that he couldn’t accept that the context is not fundamentally changeable, because it went against his disposition. Every now and then someone like this comes long, and this appears to be one of those times.

  18. Mickey… the All-American Boy

    As Yankee Stadium approached its 50th birthday in 1972, team officials requested memories from their greatest players of their favorite memories at the stadium. Mantle—a three-time MVP, Triple Crown winner (leading the league in home runs, runs batted in, and batting average in the same season), and seven-time World Series champ—surely had plenty from which to choose. He chose none.

    When filling out the form from the Yankees, Mantle answered the statement, “I consider the following my outstanding experience at Yankee Stadium” like this: “I got a blow job under the right field bleachers by the Yankee bull pen.”The Yankee form followed up with: “This event occurred on or about (give as much detail as you can).”Classy as ever, Mantle answered, “It was about the third or fourth inning. I had a pulled groin and couldn’t f—k at the time. She was a very nice girl and asked me what to do with the cum after I come in her mouth. I said don’t ask me, I’m no cock-sucker.”And he signed it, “Mickey Mantle, The All-American Boy.”

    http://listverse.com/2015/09/18/10-sordid-stories-of-baseballs-greatest-switch-hitter/

  19. @KJ

    Not to be morbid here, but you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be?

    I was recently at the funeral of an in-law…he was foreign…the only blood relative there was his son…his widow was there, too…and the small church was packed. The man was well-loved and missed. I’ll be surprised if more than five people show up at my funeral. So I’ve thought about this a little. Mrs. Gamer has said that she would never marry again or have any romance after I go, assuming I go first, so there’s that. And there are probably some of my ex-dance-partners who might miss me. Got a story about that.

    I heard about a man, who had been a dance escort on cruise ships, who passed away. Dozens of his ex-dance-partners were weeping at his funeral. Probably fucked most of them.

  20. @Sentient, it’s strangely good right now. When I have time, I’ll fill in the gaps, but I’ll leave some detail.

    Took advice from a while ago about lawyering up just in case. Contacted a nationwide law firm that specializes in men’s representation just so I could get a 1-hour consult as to what to expect, terms, costs, etc. I get assigned a woman lawyer. I’m thinking, “Can’t they find any dudes for this,” but I brush it off. Go to the appointment, lawyer is 5 minutes late … 10 minutes late … nobody telling he she’ll be right out. I start to steam. Then I hear receptionist talking to some other lady behind the glassed-in counter, “And if we know anything it’s that stupid-ass ex husbands are the most annoying things on the planet. Yeah, mine needs to give me more money for my two kids. Shit! I aught to punch him in his throat.”
    I was like wtf?! 15 minutes go by and I blew up. Told them to reschedule my appointment and give me another lawyer. They calm me and say she’ll be right out. Two more minutes go by and I finally have my meeting and get some information – mainly these leeches really want me to put down a $2,500 retainer and get the ball rolling. I thanked them for their time and rolled out of there. What a f’in mess and joke.

  21. Morpheus
    I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal

    Not just individual lives but family as well. There are men here with daughters, wives, sons, other relations. Leading all of them in a solid RP way is the best for all concerned, and that includes the churchgoing men. Dalrock has another posting on the divorce industry up, the only way to fight it is one man at a time. Everything else isn’t gonna work.

    Recently sat down with a new college grad, churchgoing man very solid in his religion, who has his first professional job in the bag. He knows how to work. He’s frustrated with the typical churchgoing girl who’s “waiting for Mr. Christian White Knight” and has been reading “Art of Manliness”. I wonder what other sites he’s been reading that he won’t talk about? Eh, once he’s settled in that cool job he needs a copy of Rollo’s book, on the sly.

  22. Kid Jupiter
    Anon Reader,

    You’re lost.

    Maybe. But I know how to read a compass and use it with a map. Yet I can find my backside without using map, compass or GPS. Go figure, eh?

  23. Great, seems like now I’m stimulating Sentient’s imagination to conjure up that I’m WKing for all women. Is that what that comment meant, or am I being defensive because every post of his is about me in some way?

    Regarding the Mick, good for him re the BJ. Doesn’t take away from the fact that he was a great teammate on the field. And, I’ve read that despite his substance abuse problems, he was a good teammate off of it, too.

  24. Sentient
    And he signed it, “Mickey Mantle, The All-American Boy.”

    But he did it for the team…

  25. ” . . . you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be?”

    Sure. It’s even, more or less, arisen as a subject here (under the title “legacy”).

    “I’m going to follow Mickey Mantle’s Yankee Stadium monument:

    “A Great Teammate.””

    We know, that’s what we’ve been telling you.

    I have not said it in every possible permutation, but I’ve covered the major variants pretty thoroughly, and now we’re just getting into reruns, which I’m sure must be frustrating for you. I haven’t done the Genghis Kahn spiel though, because the frame you’re coming from is more appropriately address by the Vox Day model of the hierarchy (go figure).

    “A Great Teammate” is the motto of the Delta. Deltas are the majority of men, who within the TRM frame would called Beta. Deltas value playing by the rules. Anyone who breaks the rules loses value. Deltas marry an OKish girl, buy a quarter acre plot bounded by a picket fence, adds 2.4 kids to the lot and add goes to work every day in a space bounded by his cubicle walls.

    Deltas are the bulk of civilization, and they run civilization. And anyone who breaks the rules of civilization is, ya know, uncivil. Perhaps even a psychopath.

    Because of their respect, even reverence for the rules, they are the major enforcers of them. Most people who go into law because they like the law are Deltas. But this can leave them with the illusion that . . .

    . . . they MAKE the rules. That the rules they follow must be the rules that everyone must follow.

    But Deltas don’t make the rules. Alphas make the rules. But when a Delta sees an Alpha making a rule, what he thinks he sees is a rule being broken and his sensibilities are offended. Such is the paradox of the Delta mindset.

    A Beta in this frame is a man who both knows and accepts that the Alpha makes the rules, and is willing to muscle the Deltas at the behest of the Alpha (as well as fend off the Betas of competing Alphas).

    KJ, you are a Delta. Not because we say so, but because you say so:

    “A Great Teammate.”

    That’s it, right there. Pure, raw, unadulterated Delta mindset. Or, within the TRM frame, Beta Provider (you may think you’re not a provider because you aren’t married, but you are wrong).

    You know Red Pill. You have studied it chapter and verse. So, you’re a Delta who knows Red Pill theory, because you still have a mindset ““A Great Teammate.”

    Protip: Mickey Mantle was owned. He wasn’t the pimp. He was the ho. And the people who paid to see him were the tricks.

    Mindset, mindset, everything is mindset.

    And it just so happens that Vox has just posted a couple articles at Alpha Game Plan that address this:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2017/06/context-vs-structure.html

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-decline-in-delta.html

  26. NewlyAloof
    When I have time, I’ll fill in the gaps, but I’ll leave some detail.

    Please do, if nothing else some other man will learn from your experience.

    A woman lawyer could be an asset to a man in a divorce action if she’s totally committed to her client. Looks like you need to shop around. I Am Not A Lawyer but if you drop some retainer money on one your ex won’t be able to use him/her/it, so if you are in smalltown you could sew up all the good ones with a one time investment. That could be to your advantage.

  27. “I reckon someone is just seriously pissed that Goldmund is excellent at nailing tail and they’re not.”

    And to illustrate how bass ackwards this thread is, I just waxed loquacious and somebody else summed it up in a pithy one liner.

  28. Regarding the Mick, good for him re the BJ.

    Now if that girl was at the park with some guy and told him she’d be right back, she was going to get a hot dog… well then…

  29. @KF: “I’m stimulating Sentient’s imagination to conjure up that I’m WKing for all women.”

    It’s your entire existence, right down to your core. Civilization was built by men, but for women. And civil life is feminized life.

    Men don’t want a little gingerbread cottage and a paper shuffling cubicle to pay for it. Men want to go out hunting, fishing and fighting. When they get permission to leave the cubicle, and if The Boss gives them “permission,” that’s what they do for fun.

  30. Just want to say that was a GREAT GREAT GREAT article-both yours and Goldmund’s. I’ve never realized until now that I can use beta-men’s misfortune to my own advantage. Typically I just get mesmorized by the ensuing train-wreck I’m witnessing; it never occurred to me to be an opportunist in the moment.

    I’m wondering if there’s enough material for a Rollo take on Kathy Griffith. I don’t think her pathology is getting enough attention. I wonder if all rabid fems feel this way towards their chosen man of hate. Instinct & Intuition say YES

  31. “It’s your entire existence, right down to your core.”

    OK, that’s an exaggeration. I retract and apologize. You’re half savage.

  32. Delta, Delta, Delta, can I help ya help ya help ya? HA

    Whatever you say, kfg.

    These “SMV” hierarchies are theoretical models, anyway. If you knew me in real life, you’d see I “make the rules” very often, in many situations. I also “follow the rules” very often, in other situations. The reason is because THAT’S LIFE. (Cue Sinatra.) Rules exist for a reason. Some rules are stupid, yes. Others, not so much – they’re important for keeping society together. There are different levels of rules. Rules rules rules.

    We are Alphas in some situations, betas in others, deltas, upsilons, and any other Greek letter of the alphabet. Hell, if I’m really out of my element, I’ll feel like an Omega – not a good feeling, at all. It’s mindset. If my concern for my teammates’ well-being and to flaunting the rules in certain social situations makes me a Delta in your mental hierarchy, then so be it.

    Some of you guys really live in a strictly theoretical world, divorced from reality. kfg, you’re probably the worst offender in that regard. It’s hard to believe you’re pushing 70. There is theory and there is reality. Often they overlap well, but sometimes they don’t totally superimpose on each other. “The map is not the territory” and all that. I’m only 44 and I know this.

    The one good thing you did for me here is forward the link to the Sultan Knish article. (I think it was you). That was a great article, it really summarizes the sociological dynamic well. If it wasn’t you, whoever posted that link, great link.

    As far as me being jealous of Goldmund, not really. I’ve had my share of NYC pussy. I went to law school there, I lived in Brooklyn for a couple years. I’m quite familiar with NYC girls in the Biblical Sense. I’ve become so tired of the vast majority of these girls, that even the sound of their voices make me cringe; I listened to Goldmund’s little interview on his website when I went to check him out further – where he interviews the chick he picked up on the subway platform. Just the sound of her voice made me sick. That urban, hipster voice, indicative of one who’s been fully indoctrinated in progressive left-wing propaganda – I think there was and article on CH calling these chicks “Globalist Girls.” Yeah, they’re sluts – trust me, I know that first-hand. Maybe I’ll post some good stories about some of my experiences in the big city.

    What Goldmund does is nothing new to me, although he does it on a scale that I never had the time or inclination to do. But, even in my own heyday, I’d never have done what he did at the dinner party. It’s just not me, I feel it’s dishonorable and too crass, as I’ve repeated 500 times.

    Maybe my ‘problem’ is I need a change of scenery. I’m tired of my surroundings in the NYC Metro. What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father, who’s now 94. I came along when he was 49, my mom was 33. My mom passed in 1999 and I was the only child of that marriage. So, I’m the only one around to look after him and his affairs, so can’t leave the NYC area right now.

    Regarding family, the Sicilians are like the Marines: no one gets left behind on the battlefield.

    But, it’s on my ‘to do’ list when I’m able. Get out of Gotham.

    To whomever posted earlier about funerals:

    We who have funerals where our body is present should consider ourselves lucky. Just think about how many men have died in war and their bodies were never recovered. So, no matter how many people show up to your service, if your carcass is there, it’s a good thing,

  33. @kfg, okay, I was hoping to wait out this cluck-fest until Rollo can put out a new post but your delta/teammate comment drew me back out….. it’s damn good one!!

    speaking of good teammates, if I ever need it, I hope that I too can get strangers to work so hard at correcting my ignorance and looking out for my best interests

  34. KJ – serious question here an off-topic…. although I’m still working to fully become RP, at some point I’d like to have more kids. Of course, I’m not yet at the point where it has to be decided but since I’m creeping up on 50, I’ve wondered how a child feels about having an older parent.

    Any insights?

  35. Over the last almost 10 or so years in the sphere, though, it’s become plain to me that there are some guys who, dispositionally, can’t accept this.

    Ha. You and I have been around these parts for a long, long time. It is interesting to me since I’ve seen so many cycles of newbies to see the same debates rehashed over and over again.

    They’re not all WKs, many of them accept most of the red pill, but they can’t accept the piece about how the broader issues are not solvable, and must be accepted as the context moving forward, meaning focus on *you* and your life, and not “broader issues”

    The genie can’t be put back in the bottle. There are very big picture issues here such as female voting and how economically independent women tend to vote, legal structures such as how courts rule on gender related issues. The idea that we can go back to a time when men had much more institutional control is absurd. If you want to “study” the “broader issues” go ahead and knock yourself out (looking at you KJ) maybe you can write a paper or something, but to think you can effect meaningful change on those broader issues is less realistic than thinking you can change the urea content of the Pacific Ocean by taking a piss in it.

    Going OT, let me ask your advice Nova since you’ve been where I now am, and possibly can save me some time and effort on the learning curve. I think we are roughly the same age (I’m 43)…I think you might be just a few years older, and I think socioeconomically we are similar…educated white collar office professionals. I don’t remember when your divorce was and thus when you had rejoined the dating/sexual marketplace. I will soon be divorced and frankly I don’t intend to forgo female companionship (no MGTOW for me) but I started dating my soon to be ex-wife in 2006 which predates ALOT of changes in the dating market. There were no “dating/hook-up” apps. Back then, you still went “out” and looked to meet women first in person, get a number, and go from there. My sense is these “dating apps” have really streamlined the process.

    I’ll be the first to admit my “Game” isn’t the tightest after years of not really being active (relationship and initial Game are different) but my strengths are “paper” type attributes, I’m lucky that I’m tall 6’3″, well-built (lifting weights for 21 years), highly educated (graduate degree MBA) so my initial thought is I am going to pass the filters of a lot of women on these apps, and then it will be just “don’t fuck it up game” from there but we will see.

    Anyhow, any advice on specifics would be much appreciated. Obviously, I get the entire RP strategic overlay, but tactics are going to vary. For example, a thirty something lawyer is probably going to look for for a guy like me than a heavily tattooed Harley chick is probably going to be more receptive to a bearded Harley dude. I think I know what my target market should be so any advice on how to most effiiciently get them would be appreciated. TIA

  36. Zipper,

    It was difficult, I’m not going to lie. My dad was from the WWII generation, while all my friends had baby boomer parents. This, plus his military background, made him very harsh with me. I’m sure his age didn’t help; I don’t think he was too keen on chasing around a rugrat, playing catch, baseball, etc with me when he was in his 50s.

    I rebelled after college and lived a bohemian life for a few years, had some new experiences, free of the constraints of the System. I needed that. Then, I plugged back in, on a different level, having had the experiences I needed.

    My advice for an older parent (and I will be one, too, if I have children) is to try to remain youthful so you’ll have the energy and patience to put up with the kid(s). Keep in physical shape, eat right, hit the weights. Also, don’t become mentally calcified – understand what’s going on in the world so your kid doesn’t feel like an alien around his peers because you can’t communicate and guide them in the manner their parents do,.

  37. What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father . . .

    That explains a great deal; more importantly it is doing a thing the right way rather than the wrong way.

  38. SJB,

    Thanks – that may inform why I am the way I am right now. When you’re put into the position to look after someone else and their affairs, it’s hard for it not to bleed over into other areas of life. I suppose it’s the same for when you have children, but caring for a parent is strange because it’s a role-reversal; he care for and protected you, now you’re doing it for him. I don’t have to wipe his ass and stuff (yet – hope never), but I have to look after the house (the house where I grew up, he won’t move). pay his bills, keep up on his medical stuff

  39. “If you knew me in real life, you’d see . . .”: Don’t you judge me by what you see on the Internet.

    “Some of you guys really live in a strictly theoretical world . . . “: I judge you by what I see on the Internet.

  40. Morpheus

    Back then, you still went “out” and looked to meet women first in person, get a number, and go from there.

    Same thing today… called Cold Approach. substitute get number with ONS, and proceed. See Field Reports menu…

    but tactics are going to vary.

    Not so much. Follow Mystery Method attraction model.

  41. “I suppose it’s the same for when you have children, but caring for a parent is strange because it’s a role-reversal; he care for and protected you, now you’re doing it for him.”

    I empathize with you. Really. Hang in there.

  42. Hey Morpheus —

    In my own experience, in the market for guys in their 40s with your background and “paper”, you will do quite well in terms of attracting attention. The apps are now becoming default, even Tinder, for women in the ages you’re likely looking at (late 20s to early-mid 30s) and there are the same issues of standing out in them as there have always been with dating websites, but you will likely not have as much of an issue standing out as some others might. The usual advice for profile pictures and so on applies, and the core concept of taking it into real life ASAP rather than getting into long messaging fests and so on as well.

    The key problem is what happens after, which is where the need for Game has skyrocketed in the years since my divorce in the mid-2000s. Getting the first meet isn’t that hard depending on what you bring to the table, but getting past it requires pretty good Game for the kinds of women you’ll be wanting to target. It may take a little bit to get back into the groove of meeting/building Game as compared with relationship Game. It’s also important to keep in mind that women in this age group can be a little tricky to Game because so many of them are in the epiphany/lane changing phase, and so a key issue is getting the women to not place you in the “provider” bucket from the get go, from the first meeting, by your frame, subcoms and overall charm/Game.

    I’m sure you will do fine in a big enough market, but the first steps back out may take some adjustment.

  43. kfg,

    I’d still beat you in an election. You sound like Hillary in the debates, when she’d fact-check Trump and tell the fact-checkers in fact-check land to fact-check.

    Who won?

    Pedantically pointing out perceived contradictions in my posts isn’t going to win you any points. This isn’t debate society, it isn’t me on the witness stand being cross-examined. The “audience” gets the drift of what I asserted, that you live in theory-land.

    I, on the other hand, have explained and detailed specifics from my life that show I’m a fluid guy, and you writing a whole post – albeit well-written – about how I’m a “Delta” is not completely accurate. I may be a delta in one situation, a beta in another, an alpha in another, a sigma in another, even an omega in yet another. (Everything in Vox Day’s hierarchy but a Lamba…)

    But, in the end, it’s just theory. It’s the menu, not the meal, the map, not the territory.

  44. ya KJ, it makes sense: *you* know and do the right thing in one area of your life and it’s natural to want the same *rightness* in other areas

    someone mentioned a while back about ‘implied contracts’ and/or ‘silent contracts’ or the like and although I’d heard of them before, it really hit me this time; one of my biggest realizations was that I had many running assumptions that weren’t shared by my wife, like ‘relationship equity’ and other man-think BP thought patterns; but we also make implied contracts with ourselves and sometimes I catch my dying BP self negotiating with my RP self (‘ought’ vs ‘is’)

    think of it, I’m trying to carry the water for my own demise… that’s fucked up; the best slaves are the ones that happily put on the shackles themselves, now that’s top shelf brainwashing

    from my vantage, you seem to have the red pill about halfway down but still choke sometimes on some of its ugly realities

  45. And thank you for your kind words re my dad. You do what you gotta do, no need to turn a necessity into a virtue.

  46. ” My advice for an older parent (and I will be one, too, if I have children) is to try to remain youthful so you’ll have the energy and patience to put up with the kid(s). Keep in physical shape, eat right, hit the weights. Also, don’t become mentally calcified – understand what’s going on in the world so your kid doesn’t feel like an alien around his peers because you can’t communicate and guide them in the manner their parents do,.”

    Very good advice.

    Veeerrryyyy good.

    We had debates here numerous time in the past, where young(er) guys without kids would tell us that we couldn’t possibly know/relate to our kids worlds. The meme used to be that are daughters ( not ours specifically ) were blowing guys in the club’s bathrooms. ( There’s that bathroom thing again…).

    But as you allude to above, it is possible, and even desirable to be able to relate to your kids and the world they inhabit. It’s important.

  47. Zipper,

    The contracts thing is interesting. When you get married, they call it “the marriage contract.” It’s basically supposed to be like a business arrangement. You do A, you get B. She does C, she gets D.

    Worked well for a long time because no one told women they didn’t have to do C to get D, and furthermore, that they could require you to do A and you don’t necessarily get B unless she wants you to.

    Once they got clued in that they didn’t have to fulfill their end anymore, and that the State would allow them to dissolve the agreement on a whim with “no fault.” the contract became an onerous one for a man to sign.

    My joke during the gay marriage debate was, “The way to achieve true marriage equality is to make ALL marriage ILLEGAL.”

    ——————

    I still don’t understand why you guys are saying I’m spitting up the RP, or I haven’t swallowed it. Because I don’t like what Goldmund did in that context?

    I read up thread that the context was part of the pickup. What is the value in that? To feel special because you ‘took what you wanted, when you wanted it’? That’s not even taking into account the third factor: ‘And no one stopped me.’

    I think in the Knish article he states that decadent societies need lots of regulations and rules because the people can’t and/or won’t regulate themselves. Looks like that’s true on a micro level, too – decadent people need to be regulated from outside because they can’t and/or won’t do it themselves.

    https://sultanknish.blogspot.ro/2016/04/in-city-of-decadents.html

    Maybe I’m misquoting, I’m in a hurry now.

  48. Kid Jupiter
    What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father, who’s now 94.

    That explains a lot. There’s bad news and good news. You have to do this, because nobody else will do it right. But you get to do this right, and that will matter to you for a long time.

    Furthermore:
    You only have to plan his funeral once, and you only get to plan it once. Don’t let anyone take that job away from you, no matter how well intentioned they may be. Not anyone, even family, gets that job except you.

  49. shit, now I’m stuck in this tar baby, too lol

    Right on with the marriage contract thing, only one side is enforceable; I wonder if this would be a valid legal defense.

    I think you *know* the RP stuff, but come across as not fully accepting of it yet. Just my opinion but I’ve observed similar behavior in myself and many others who’ve commented on this site. I’m not advocating what G did, but why get so bothered by ‘ought’ vs ‘is’ then if you’re fully RP? Shit, my ex ‘ought’ to have been more loyal and devoted seeing as how all my sacrifices and efforts were to her benefit. But that was my implied contract with her that she didn’t even know existed. Was I pissed? Fuck yeah.

    Now, in acceptance, I’ve changed myself to adapt to reality and deal with it as it ‘is.’ But this is not capitulation. I get to deal with reality in my own way, of my own choosing. So in a way, I *am* making my own reality. For me, acceptance leads directly to positive change.

    Wherever you’re at in your journey, I do wish you the quickest path to success as you define it. Everyone here is in your corner though it may not read that way at times.

  50. Dr. zipper
    I’ve wondered how a child feels about having an older parent.

    Speaking from personal experience, the first time a classmate told me “Your grandfather is here!” and it was actually my father it was strange. I got used to it. Older parents have a different perspective than younger ones do on a lot of things. It’s funny the first time your father tells you your American history book is wrong “I was there, and that’s crap”, later on it’s just interesting.

    Plus now with an actual blip up in birth rate among women over 35 it won’t be so rare / strange as it used to be.

    Kid Jupiter’s suggestion is sound. Staying flexible physically and mentally is good for a man no matter what his situation.

  51. AR – I’m a fine physical specimen now, played competitive sports my whole life and in great shape. But that’s now and health is one bug or accident away from being gone; true at any age.

    Any social trepidation to me being an old guy with a young chippie brood mare is just the FI’s hand on my shoulder (lol) and I have to get over that, which I will. My concern is for the child and whether it’s just a generally bad idea. Of course, my standards for fatherhood include active involvement with their raising…. I want to toss the ball and go hiking, not sit in my rocking chair waiting to hear their stories secondhand.

    At this point, however, I’m still a ways away from this being an imminent issue. Thanks for the feedback.

  52. @Morpheus

    “Anyhow, any advice on specifics would be much appreciated. Obviously, I get the entire RP strategic overlay, but tactics are going to vary. For example, a thirty something lawyer is probably going to look for for a guy like me than a heavily tattooed Harley chick is probably going to be more receptive to a bearded Harley dude. I think I know what my target market should be so any advice on how to most effiiciently get them would be appreciated. TIA”

    I’m not as old(30s), but fwiw, I think you should watch “The Natural” by RSDMax. You will probably be able to find it at “pick up torrents reddit.” It is the most up-to-date game product with tons of infield. Some parts are probably useless in your age(eg, advise to lift, hygiene lol) but it’s a very complete product(with complete guide for Tinder etc). Also, after that, you could watch Tom Torero’s youtube channel or RSDTyler’s “HotSeat @ Home.” They are ~40yo, so I guess it would be easy to reinforce the “gaming chicks in their 20s in my 40s” mindset.

  53. I’m working to make my epitaph the same as my epithet:

    “He Was an Asshole, But We Loved Him Anyway”

  54. My advice as an older parent is you play the cards life deals you. Eveything has advantages and disadvantages. I was younger with the 1st two but broke as hell, mostly gone, high stress position, short on patience……Really outside the energy factor I think its mostly upside to be an older parent.

    With these two, i am around most days, don’t work a regular shift etc, have some spare cash, little more wisdom to make up for the drop in energy, know some cool shit vs learning some cool shit with the 1st two.

    That’s life. Damn near everything has its ups and downs

  55. stuffin,

    Good video, I’m going to watch more of this guy. Rollo posted that other one by him yesterday.

  56. @kfg – not greedy, I can share; for some reason I’ve always gotten ‘epitaph’ and ‘epithet’ mixed up… makes for some great oopsies

    there you go again, Ton, distilling low grade swill into straight punch moonshine

  57. Thanks for the response Nova.

    It’s also important to keep in mind that women in this age group can be a little tricky to Game because so many of them are in the epiphany/lane changing phase, and so a key issue is getting the women to not place you in the “provider” bucket from the get go, from the first meeting, by your frame, subcoms and overall charm/Game.

    Yeah, I’m anticipating a potential tradeoff here between say 25-35 and 35-45. I think 35-45 year old women are less likely to be in that “settle down” ephiphany phase, and possibly coming out of divorces themselves so they may be in a “rediscovery” “just have fun” phase. Problem is I expect a severe deterioration in physical looks from say 30 to 45. If the women I went to high school with and are FB friends is any representative indication, there are some that just look horrendous…frankly, they’d have to pay me to have sex with them. I don’t know if it just aging poorly, smoking and drinking, and having kids, but some just look like train wrecks.

    I have spent the last 20 years of my life really taking care of myself (some would argue to a fault) with exercise, no smoking, no excessive drinking, thousands of dollars on supplements (many with anti-aging properties such as Resveratrol) so if I am going to stay similar age say around 40ish they’ve have to look like they are in really good shape for 40.

    If I go down to 25-30ish I am getting women who are transitioning from their “party years” to ephiphany lock it down phase so there is that high risk of being pegged as “that guy” with all its requisite burdens such as “earning” sex for the relationship committment. After TWO failed marriages, right now I have ZERO interest in the potential for being a THIRD woman’s settle down guy especially after this second marriage. It’s still early (she left me 6 weeks ago) but I am so cynical and jaded on marriage and long-term relationships right now it isn’t even funny.

    I am aware of all the different tactics and mindset to hopefully avoid that trap…don’t see her too frequently, don’t do “boyfriendy” things, don’t meet her family, etc. etc. but there is always that risk of being slotted into the “potential long-term guy” that subjects you to rules the “short-term fun guy” doesn’t have imposed on him.

  58. “I’m wondering if there’s enough material for a Rollo take on Kathy Griffith. I don’t think her pathology is getting enough attention.”

    I think she’s getting too much attention.
    Laugh at her for cultural appropriation (“privileged class white woman culturally appropriating the proud custom of a marginalized people”…beheadings are an ISIS thing, Yo!) and then set on the “ignore” dial.
    The more interesting thing to me is that this was a shoot with a famous photographer.
    So…a lot of people were in the room when that thing was made and no one raised the wtf? flag.
    That’s what echo chamber safe spaces do to people.

  59. I should add, I’d think differently if her sponsors were supporting her. If that were the case I’d want to see a mass boycott of those products. but she has been dumped by everyone and now all we get is her obtuse statements about being bullied and fits of the crying vapors.

  60. Morpheus —

    Yep, I was thinking you weren’t exactly chomping at the bit for another wife at this point.

    It’s a tradeoff, as you say, between these age groups.

    Most of the women around 40ish are not well maintained, unfortunately, as we all can see. However, it’s also the case that there are more of them who *are* well maintained, at least in the major metros, than ever before due to better health and fitness among a certain small segment of the population. (It’s one of the paradoxes of our age that this trend coexists with the larger trend towards widespread obesity in other population segments.) However, these women are in high demand *for their age*, because they know that for guys who are in the market for a woman of their age, they are at the top of the class and still small in absolute numbers — so things can get competitive for the well maintained, hot 40 year olds. Paradoxically, it’s because of this that it can actually be easier to attract women in their 20s at your age than a hot woman of around 40 because there are just so many more hot 25 year olds than 40 year olds that the competition is different for them — at least until the epiphany phase when the perspective shifts over and they may be less open to a fling with a hot, sexy older guy.

    Anyway, it’s a tradeoff — probably best and more fun to try both ends of the spectrum there and see what happens.

  61. Kathy Griffith’s pathetic press conference was the most laughs she’s ever gotten in her career.

  62. However, it’s also the case that there are more of them who *are* well maintained, at least in the major metros, than ever before due to better health and fitness among a certain small segment of the population. (It’s one of the paradoxes of our age that this trend coexists with the larger trend towards widespread obesity in other population segments.) However, these women are in high demand *for their age*, because they know that for guys who are in the market for a woman of their age, they are at the top of the class and still small in absolute numbers — so things can get competitive for the well maintained, hot 40 year olds. Paradoxically, it’s because of this that it can actually be easier to attract women in their 20s at your age than a hot woman of around 40 because there are just so many more hot 25 year olds than 40 year olds that the competition is different for them

    Thank you, this is the sort of market specific information that is INCREDIBLY USEFUL to know because it is so damn counterintuitive. This is going to sound like bragging, but I can easily pass for 30, even late 20s but that is pushing it. That said, I have no intention on lying on any of my profiles I create. Now just pondering it from the outside, I would have naturally assumed it would be much easier to attract and pull a hot 40 something over a hot 25 year old, but what you say about the “market demand” for hot 40 years old especially amongst guys committed to “age appropriate” dating suggests their value may be inflated, kind of like a studio apartment in Manhatten.

    In my individual circumstances it may in fact be easier to attract a hot 25 year old versus that hot 40 year old that every 40-50 rich guy is trying to nail down by spending tons of funds. Still, I have no intent on trying to sell “status” or “financial success”. Truth is, I’ve been a MASSIVE underachiever for my level of education (never progressed to any level of management position). But I got lucky in the looks department. In about another 2 months once I diet down some more of the bodyfat, I’d guess I’m in the top .1% of guys in their early 40s if you combine face, body, and height. I’m sure many of those hot 40 year olds have the rich successful guy who takes them out to the super expensive restaurants and the good looking guy as the sidepiece. I’ve got no objection to being the latter.

    In any case, I am sort of looking forward to getting out there and experimenting. I think what I find out, and the various successes and failures are going to be educational and ultimately an affirmation of EVERYTHING that Red Pill says about female choices in dating/mating.

  63. Morpheus

    “there is always that risk of being slotted into the “potential long-term guy” that subjects you to rules the “short-term fun guy” doesn’t have imposed on him.”

    Limit this risk by not starting out in a Husband Hunter acquisition app… Focus on cold approach, where you start out as short term fun guy.

  64. Morpheus,

    If you’re in great shape, take some pics and go on Tinder and Bumble. Take some pics that show off your physique and use them. Those apps are the ones where it’s quick-hit – they swipe right if they like your pic, and if you swipe right on their pic, too, then you can chat. Pretty sure that’s how it works.

    Google strategies for chatting with chicks on these two apps, because there’s a definite formula to it – you’ve got to be quick and pithy and to the point. It’s not like the old days, with Match.com, where you can look at a profile and email back and forth in a semi-normal conversational way. (I was slaying it on Match back around 2005-2006. Not so much with Tinder and Bumble, but I haven’t really tried too hard.)

    I would also recommend shaving a few years off your age if can get away with it, if you want to go for younger chicks; they tend to age discriminate on these apps in their search criteria. And increase your height to at least 6’1″ if you can get away with that, too. These are tips I’ve read.

    I’m not big on being dishonest, but you gotta do what you gotta do on these apps if that’s the way they play the game. And, who cares about it if you’re just going for quick hits, not the full relationship monty.

  65. @Kid Jupiter

    I would concur with KFG in the fact that the reason some of us were giving you shit was because we see value in you.

    One major reason that you faced such things is that for some of us, what you were saying and kept saying is out and out Blue Pill. Your Frame is nice and virtuous and all, but some of us are more concerned with amoral sexual strategy. I’d certainly like to play on your ball team as a team member, but I wouldn’t want to go picking up girls with you. (And I wouldn’t be picking up girls, because that’s not what I do, I would be your wing man.)

    Goldmund stated in his comments under the article that the OP references:

    Its funny when I think about first learning Game and every single one of my guy friends loved it. Really loved it. Especially when I was talking to so many girls while out at night and they came over to gather the scraps. But, all of them refused to accept the redpill, couldn’t bring themselves to understand the real reasons why Game worked, and clung to their old framework. Needless to say, I left those guys behind, and some of them royally fucked up their lives by getting involved with girls that broke them.

    Welcome here to commenting.

    Here’s a semi-pro tip about KFG and his desired role in discussion: He’s not out to lecture and feed you information. He’s trying to get you to come to your own realizations about your strategy in order for you to believe them stronger. He’s not going to kill you (the patient) with kindness. (refrain from tough necessary procedural work because that would be hard for you to have to do–that’s a term I used to employ when medical residents and teams weren’t wanting to do an invasive medical procedure that was in the best interest of the patient to keep them alive, when appropriate, rather than not. I’d question: “What, you want to kill the patient with kindness?” Sometimes surgery needs to be done.)

    The Red Pill is hard and it takes work. But it does work, when you try. I’ve been through a few debates here and very few of them didn’t change my perspective or reinforce my goals in life. I changed a lot of myself here, including the things I was lying to myself about. What my soul wanted and what my cognitive brain (1.,Ego and 2., SuperEgo) was lying to me about. Watch out for those two guys are trying to accomplish, because they frequently are liars.

  66. SJF,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    I’m actually a good pickup teammate, too. As I’ve alluded, I haven’t been a saint in my life, I’m only questioning where things are headed now on a societal basis. And I’m fairly tired of the NYC chick shtick

    A good wingman is essential; so many men don’t have the slightest clue what they’re doing. They’re either too shy, too nervous, or they want to be competitive with their partner – they’re too greedy. This is another example where team-based aptitude is necessary. You need to work together.

    The last time I really went out and gamed a girl in NYC was last summer with my cousin. Great guy, divorced. Normally good with women when he’s in his own element in Jersey. We went to Dangerfield’s comedy club on Upper East Side for an early Saturday show- I have friends in the comedy world who perform there. After the show, we went to the bar across the street – Treadwell, lots of young hotties hang there. The bar was freezing, AC was blasting. Two chicks sitting at bar to our right, one tall, thin, attractive, the other not so much. Ordered drinks. My cousin asked the bartender to turn down the AC, and they eventually did. I then tapped the attractive one on the shoulder – she was wearing a little cut off denim jacket that went to her waist. She turned around and I said, “I have some good news for you.” “Oh really, what’s that?” “They turned the air down. You can take you jacket off.”

    Ice broken.

    I started chatting with her and fending off the fat friend – she was a real mother hen type. My cousin was oblivious. I was teasing, flirting, etc. Put my hand on the girl’s back, she didn’t flinch. Escalated to rubbing up and down her back. No flinch. I turned around and called my cousin, brought him into the mix to try to fend off the fat friend, who was throwing major interference into my game, which I was doing my best to pacify away. He came over, introduced, and then went back and sat down! He was too disgusted by the fat friend to help me out. He sat down, and next thing you know this girl sticks her tongue down my throat. The fat friend was like, but your boyfriend! Blah blah. Chick gets up to go the the bathroom. Fat friend stays at the bar. I’m chatting with her; she was just laid off from Ralph Lauren and I was wearing a RL shirt. Hottie comes back. Her phone is blowing up. Apparently, they were supposed to meet at her boyfriend’s apartment and they were late. He was blowing up the phone and she didn’t answer. She sat back down and we started talking again. I put my arm around her and she leaned into me. We made out again and she shoved her tongue into it. She was a light-skinned Puerto Rican. She’s talking about sex, asked me if I thought I was going to fuck her. I was like, probably. Fat friend wasn’t having it. She grabbed the girl and started hustling her off. We gotta go, we gotta go. I’m like, give me your #. Fat friend takes my phone and starts entering a #. I told her I knew she was entering a fake # and grabbed the girl’s phone and called my phone, so I had her #. She hustles her off.

    The whole time, my cousin did nothing to help me by fending off the fat chick so I could hook up. He just sat there in his own world. I couldn’t be angry with him, but it was disappointing and an example of why you need a good wingman.

    Tried to reach the girl few days later but never returned my txt.

    So, long story longer : Please don’t interpret the fact that I criticized Goldmund for what he did in that situation as being a criticism of gaming girls, in general – even those with “boyfriends” (they all have some cock hanging around, usually several.) I just have a hard time with that specific scenario Goldmund was in.

    Game away.

  67. at least until the epiphany phase when the perspective shifts over and they may be less open to a fling with a hot, sexy older guy.

    I find that the girls in the late 20s are often very open to much older guys if those guys move like they are young and act young (not silly, but not giving organ recitals, either).

  68. dr. zipper
    Any social trepidation to me being an old guy with a young chippie brood mare is just the FI’s hand on my shoulder (lol) and I have to get over that, which I will.

    John Tyler became President of the US in 1841 after President Harrison died. Last time I checked, two of Tyler’s grandsons (not greatgrandsons) are still alive.

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/29842/president-john-tylers-grandsons-are-still-alive

    Tyler’s second wife produced a son for him when he was in his 60’s. That son married late also and had two sons when he was in his 50’s or 60’s. So forget the FI pushing on you. Stay fit and flexible.

  69. “I would also recommend shaving a few years off your age if can get away with it, if you want to go for younger chicks; they tend to age discriminate on these apps in their search criteria. And increase your height to at least 6’1″ if you can get away with that, too. These are tips I’ve read.”

    KJ,

    Thanks for the suggestions. No need for me to lie on height… Like I said upthread I’m a legit 6’3″. I may have to think about the age one a bit, no point in getting disqualified on age with chicks who wouldn’t disqualify in person before they knew an actual age and were interested otherwise

  70. @Kid

    “I started chatting with her and fending off the fat friend – she was a real mother hen type.”

    lol this was your mistake. Gotta befriend the fat girl instead of looking her as your enemy. Group Theory 101. SHE is your wingman.

  71. Goldmunds follow up to the original field report makes it quite clear that he thinks if he had not took advantage of the “urgency of attraction aka Rollos foam party guy” then given the “cool down” period if he had just taken the number and hit her up later he acknowledged the bang probably would not have happened!

    Red pill is a praxeology and amoral, I’m all about being in the “results business” and goldmunds actions yielded the optimal result in the given situation.

    I’ve said it before I’ll say it again women are just playthings ( and have no problem with being so ) stop taking them so seriously and get at it while the gettings good what do they have to do before you hear the Alpha siren call they are all signaling?

  72. Kid

    “So, long story longer : Please don’t interpret the fact that I criticized Goldmund”

    Would be fascinating if it wasn’t so predictable.

  73. ” I’ll say it again women are just playthings. . .”

    . . . and then he looked at me and said, “Why tho theoryth?”

  74. “Please don’t interpret the fact that I criticized Goldmund for what he did in that situation as being a criticism of gaming girls, in general – even those with “boyfriends”.

    After all the drama of the discussion in comments, if you go back and re-read the original post that Rollo made, the reason he wrote it is to admonish Blue Pill Beta orbiters of their faults in awarenss and advocate for Game savvy men to have power to accomplish their goals. Goldmund had a goal and he went for it without apology. He’s not advocating for singular Goldmund Unleashed pursuits. He is advocating for masculine self interest. Whatever that may be.

    Even though I live in a world that you might envy as civilized and orderly, (90% married, social checks and balances on immoral behavior, and not a lot of guys that got fucked over in life–because of their wise decisions and having put in the work to make themselves be good at being a man) I’m still an advocate for amoral game. I’m not immoral by any stretch. I have a solid moral code. The Red Pill as described by Rollo is bottoms up Awareness. What any man chooses to use that Awareness and Game for is his own decision. Rollo’s Red Pill Brand is unlike other red pill brands. And I can’t find fault with it. Including the Goldmund story, which fits the narrative.

    My Frame consists of monogamy, long term marriage, two delightful children, age 22 to 25, a great profession (that consists of observing the skin of girls stripped down to their underwear every day), financial security, masculine pursuits, peak experiences a couple times a month, super stable and respectful social life and satisfaction and happiness. But I still have an amoral desire to push into uncharted territory, like a Walter White from Breaking Bad. Push the Edge of Abilities (T.M.) And red pill awareness and Game rescued me from a most certain on-two-rails train crash. (Rescued with Married Red Pill Game). So I have a lot of desire to see other men succeed in a Feminine Imperative, Matrix hive-mind world. Life is beautiful, but time is valuable and a toolbox of amoral red pill and game is sitting right there ready for use. I don’t see Blue Pill fantasies as practical.

  75. j,

    “lol this was your mistake. Gotta befriend the fat girl instead of looking her as your enemy. Group Theory 101. SHE is your wingman.”

    That’s what I meant. ‘Fend’ was bad word choice. I was including her in convo, trying to charm her, but there came a point where I needed the wingman to step in so I could isolate with the attractive chick one on one. The reinforcements never arrived.
    ___________

    Poor Sentient. I feel sorry for the guy that he can’t let go. Let it out. Take it out, take it out on meeee.

  76. @KJ

    but there came a point where I needed the wingman to step in so I could isolate with the attractive chick one on one.

    Surely there was one thirsty chode in the bar…or didn’t you bother to chat up the other men in the bar?

  77. ASD,

    I was too involved with the girl, it happened very quickly. I didn’t want to disengage her and give the fatty friend solo access to her and then yank her from the venue.

  78. “Poor Sentient. I feel sorry for the guy that he can’t let go.”

    I have a spidey sense that Sentient let go of a lot more things in life than most men ever acquired.

  79. Kid

    Since you an an expert, i’d love to read your explanation of what you did to PR girl’s BF with your tongue being down her throat and your attempt to fuck her and how this was different to what Goldmund did? With all the honor and psychopathy analysis and all…

    Was it different because you failed to fuck her? What if it was just the tip?

  80. Sentient,

    You’re quite dense. Really dense, like granite. Or lead.

    1) I wasn’t at a dinner party with the BF
    2) He wasn’t there and I wasn’t doing it right in front of him
    3) I wasn’t offending the host who invited me
    4) I wouldn’t have fucked her in the bathroom

    There it is, laid out in 4 easy to understand points.

    Do you get it yet? What I’ve been saying for over 3 days now?

    I’m sure you don’t, because you really don’t want to get it, you want to keep picking, keep trying to find a contradiction in my rubric of why I didn’t like what Goldmund did.

    You’re sitting there, wherever you are, saying, “Yesss! Now I’ve got him! He’s contradicting himself and is a hypocrite!” It’s amazing that your mining of the transcripts didn’t uncover that I never said hooking up with a girl who has a boyfriend is absolutely, unequivocally, always wrong. I very specifically stated what I thought was wrong – doing it right in front of him (or even just the guy who brought her there, and continuing when told to stop by the host of the party I was at).

    But, you probably saw in the transcripts that I’ve been saying that all along and aren’t referencing it, because it wouldn’t allow you to continue to prosecute your case.

    I’m disappointed in you. I expect more from my comments digester.

  81. @Kid

    “I didn’t want to disengage her and give the fatty friend solo access to her and then yank her from the venue.”

    Outcome dependent. If plan A failed (befriend potential cockblock) plan B was to do what theasdgamer said (befriend a chode and throw him to her). She was pissed cause PR girl was getting all the action/attention and she wasn’t.

    “I told her I knew she was entering a fake # and grabbed the girl’s phone and called my phone, so I had her #. She hustles her off”

    “Tried to reach the girl few days later but never returned my txt.”

    Massive ASD no chance she was gonna text you back. Had to bang her right then and there or no bang (she was gonna visit her boyfriend after so no chance to bring her to your place) (so while fat girl is talking to chode, you take PR girl (who is very DTF) by the hand to the bathroom for a fast quickie (which is what the person you have a problem with figured out and accomplished.)

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