The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

5 1 vote
Article Rating

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

Speak your mind

1.1K Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

I’d like Goldmund to follow up with the girl on what happend next… I bet it went something like this… Aussie: Did you fuck that guy!!! Girl: Do you think I’m just some slut that fucks strangers in the bathroom?!!! Aussie: Well you came back all red… Ah ehhhmm… Uh… Girl: So you’re calling me. Slut! You pervert!!! Aussie: I uh… No… I mean.. I don’t know.. Uh…. Girl: You said you loved me. If you REALLY loved me you would never accuse me of anything like this!!!! Aussie: uh baby… I DO love you… I’m sorry I just… Ahhh….… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Last time I’m saying it. Only repeating on more time: Goldmund picking up the chick in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. The context he did it in, the brazenness of it, does. I’ve detailed why; I believe it’s dishonorable and short-sighted. It was definitely a good object lesson on what hypergamy is capable of, but I also think it’s irresponsible to pass this off as something guys can get away with outside the context in which G lives and operates. Don’t disrespect the Sky God and not expecr repercussions. I’m not talking about me, I’m just the Kid. I’m… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“… I bet it went something like this…”

I wouldn’t bet on it, but I’m afraid that it might well have. The guy has taken the lab, but he doesn’t have anyone to give him the theory. If he doesn’t do The Google Search he’ll have a hard time coming to make sense of it.

Even if it didn’t go down that way, he’ll still probably end up at NAWALT.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Kid

I apologize. I misread you. It was there the whole time.

In-house.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Kid Jupiter, I’ve enjoyed reading your comments. You are a principled man. I respect that. Yet forget about all the other commenters right now and how you feel about them, and then seriously consider this point: At no point in your comments have you every said that THE GIRL is the psychopath (psychopath: uncaring person with shallow emotions). She accepts an expensive plane ride to America knowing the Aussie likes her and will want some action and takes the ticket anyway. She gets there and stays in his room and knowingly flirts with Goldmund in front of him and them… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
5 years ago

@Kid Jupiter A major part of the many Blue Pill ideals Betas try to realize through the use of Red Pill tools is the hope of “vanquishing” an “Evil” man, in order to purchase the right to THEN flood the bitch with neediness and validation-seeking. It’s just one more step. Making every man in the world responsible for making sure your Beta game succeeds works in a Beta’s head because he stupidly believes every “real” man is trying to get pussy the same way; HIS socially approved way. But he’s playing the sucker’s game. Some men don’t WANT to be… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“At no point in your comments have you every said that THE GIRL is the psychopath . . .”

To be fair, he has said that she has the attributes that would be considered psychopathic if she were a man. Ironically, given the venue, it is his absolute rejection of an equalist frame that is part of what is getting him into “trouble” here. Which I’m sure contributes to his confusion over being “attacked.”

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Sentient
I bet it went something like this…

I don’t LOL much, but LOL. Because it’s true.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Once upon a time years ago I accidentally triggered a little party girl in a social non-party context by labeling her with the nickname “Teasey”. She got all up in my face with “Are you calling me a TEASER?” but her friends dragged her away before I got my answer out. She had a whole rationalization hamster-run full of reasons why her cock teasing behavior was anything but teasing. I never apologized for that and her friend kept hanging around me, it was a mystery at the time. Gosh, I must have been frustrating to those girls. Almost as though… Read more »

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

KJ: The kids in Podunk won’t listen — they are the enlisted material, remember?

I doubt there is a per-capita difference, by population density, in bathroom-lays-by-not-the-escort.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@kfg, I must have missed that comment. perhaps I should put it another way with analogy: All of us have “debate lanes” we choose to lead with as the most important to us. Kid chooses to lead with the “guys should do what’s noble” debate lane. The older guys here choose to lead with the “cats are cats, so it’s our burden and responsibility to master them” debate lane. Red Pill more closely follows the cats are cats lane. This lane is where mastery lies. White Knights and principled betas more closely follow the noble lane. This lane is the… Read more »

Morpheus
Morpheus
5 years ago

I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it. This is all a waste of time and mental energy. I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Kid Last time I’m saying it Heh. Goldmund picking up the chick in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. The context he did it in, the brazenness of it, does. I’ve detailed why; I believe it’s dishonorable and short-sighted. The context is part of the pickup. Why you can’t or won’t see this is curious. Lack of experience? Your “dishonorable” is laughable. By the older, more tradtional standards of honor Aussie guy was dishonorable in bringing that girl over in the first place for any purpose other than (a) supervised employment or (b) marriage. By the older standards you don’t… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@SJB:

I once knew a girl who you could trigger by looking at and saying, “Cornfield.”

Just because in a small town everyone knows what you’ve been doing almost before you do, doesn’t mean it doesn’t get done.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

newlyaloof
All of us have “debate lanes” we choose to lead with as the most important to us. Kid chooses to lead with the “guys should do what’s noble” debate lane. The older guys here choose to lead with the “cats are cats, so it’s our burden and responsibility to master them” debate lane.

Concise. Concur.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Not to be morbid here, but you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be? (Don’t misread that as a barbaric Sicilian threat. It’s a legit question.) I’m going to follow Mickey Mantle’s Yankee Stadium monument: “A Great Teammate.” That’s how I want to be remembered. As a great teammate on all the “teams” I’ve played on. Guys always knew I had their back and would do my best to pick them up. How do you want to be remembered? BTW, I’m being cremated. Burial in a cemetery is a vainglorious waste of real estate that someone… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Anon Reader,

You’re lost. I feel for you, brother. Get well.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Newly

How are things?

I don’t think Kid’s a white knight, but he is frustrated with the system as it is.

The worst kind of WK is the one who is doing it to other dudes – on behalf of All Women.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
5 years ago

This is all a waste of time and mental energy. I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal Precisely correct, Morpheus. Over the last almost 10 or so years in the sphere, though, it’s become plain to me that there are some guys who, dispositionally, can’t accept this. They’re not all WKs, many of them accept most of the red pill, but they can’t accept the piece about how the broader issues… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Mickey… the All-American Boy As Yankee Stadium approached its 50th birthday in 1972, team officials requested memories from their greatest players of their favorite memories at the stadium. Mantle—a three-time MVP, Triple Crown winner (leading the league in home runs, runs batted in, and batting average in the same season), and seven-time World Series champ—surely had plenty from which to choose. He chose none. When filling out the form from the Yankees, Mantle answered the statement, “I consider the following my outstanding experience at Yankee Stadium” like this: “I got a blow job under the right field bleachers by the… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@KJ Not to be morbid here, but you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be? I was recently at the funeral of an in-law…he was foreign…the only blood relative there was his son…his widow was there, too…and the small church was packed. The man was well-loved and missed. I’ll be surprised if more than five people show up at my funeral. So I’ve thought about this a little. Mrs. Gamer has said that she would never marry again or have any romance after I go, assuming I go first, so there’s that. And there are probably… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, it’s strangely good right now. When I have time, I’ll fill in the gaps, but I’ll leave some detail. Took advice from a while ago about lawyering up just in case. Contacted a nationwide law firm that specializes in men’s representation just so I could get a 1-hour consult as to what to expect, terms, costs, etc. I get assigned a woman lawyer. I’m thinking, “Can’t they find any dudes for this,” but I brush it off. Go to the appointment, lawyer is 5 minutes late … 10 minutes late … nobody telling he she’ll be right out. I… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Morpheus I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal Not just individual lives but family as well. There are men here with daughters, wives, sons, other relations. Leading all of them in a solid RP way is the best for all concerned, and that includes the churchgoing men. Dalrock has another posting on the divorce industry up, the only way to fight it is one man at a time. Everything else isn’t… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Kid Jupiter
Anon Reader,

You’re lost.

Maybe. But I know how to read a compass and use it with a map. Yet I can find my backside without using map, compass or GPS. Go figure, eh?

theasdgamer
5 years ago

Lol, CNN has been busted rigging a protest event with Muslims supposedly protesting against ISIS:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/06/shock-video-cnn-creates-fakenews-london-following-terror-attacks-stages-anti-isis-muslim-protesters/

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Great, seems like now I’m stimulating Sentient’s imagination to conjure up that I’m WKing for all women. Is that what that comment meant, or am I being defensive because every post of his is about me in some way?

Regarding the Mick, good for him re the BJ. Doesn’t take away from the fact that he was a great teammate on the field. And, I’ve read that despite his substance abuse problems, he was a good teammate off of it, too.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Sentient
And he signed it, “Mickey Mantle, The All-American Boy.”

But he did it for the team…

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be?” Sure. It’s even, more or less, arisen as a subject here (under the title “legacy”). “I’m going to follow Mickey Mantle’s Yankee Stadium monument: “A Great Teammate.”” We know, that’s what we’ve been telling you. I have not said it in every possible permutation, but I’ve covered the major variants pretty thoroughly, and now we’re just getting into reruns, which I’m sure must be frustrating for you. I haven’t done the Genghis Kahn spiel though, because the frame you’re coming from is more appropriately… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

NewlyAloof When I have time, I’ll fill in the gaps, but I’ll leave some detail. Please do, if nothing else some other man will learn from your experience. A woman lawyer could be an asset to a man in a divorce action if she’s totally committed to her client. Looks like you need to shop around. I Am Not A Lawyer but if you drop some retainer money on one your ex won’t be able to use him/her/it, so if you are in smalltown you could sew up all the good ones with a one time investment. That could be… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“I reckon someone is just seriously pissed that Goldmund is excellent at nailing tail and they’re not.”

And to illustrate how bass ackwards this thread is, I just waxed loquacious and somebody else summed it up in a pithy one liner.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Regarding the Mick, good for him re the BJ.

Now if that girl was at the park with some guy and told him she’d be right back, she was going to get a hot dog… well then…

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@KF: “I’m stimulating Sentient’s imagination to conjure up that I’m WKing for all women.”

It’s your entire existence, right down to your core. Civilization was built by men, but for women. And civil life is feminized life.

Men don’t want a little gingerbread cottage and a paper shuffling cubicle to pay for it. Men want to go out hunting, fishing and fighting. When they get permission to leave the cubicle, and if The Boss gives them “permission,” that’s what they do for fun.

Trump is the Man
Trump is the Man
5 years ago

Just want to say that was a GREAT GREAT GREAT article-both yours and Goldmund’s. I’ve never realized until now that I can use beta-men’s misfortune to my own advantage. Typically I just get mesmorized by the ensuing train-wreck I’m witnessing; it never occurred to me to be an opportunist in the moment.

I’m wondering if there’s enough material for a Rollo take on Kathy Griffith. I don’t think her pathology is getting enough attention. I wonder if all rabid fems feel this way towards their chosen man of hate. Instinct & Intuition say YES

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“It’s your entire existence, right down to your core.”

OK, that’s an exaggeration. I retract and apologize. You’re half savage.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Delta, Delta, Delta, can I help ya help ya help ya? HA Whatever you say, kfg. These “SMV” hierarchies are theoretical models, anyway. If you knew me in real life, you’d see I “make the rules” very often, in many situations. I also “follow the rules” very often, in other situations. The reason is because THAT’S LIFE. (Cue Sinatra.) Rules exist for a reason. Some rules are stupid, yes. Others, not so much – they’re important for keeping society together. There are different levels of rules. Rules rules rules. We are Alphas in some situations, betas in others, deltas, upsilons,… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@kfg, okay, I was hoping to wait out this cluck-fest until Rollo can put out a new post but your delta/teammate comment drew me back out….. it’s damn good one!!

speaking of good teammates, if I ever need it, I hope that I too can get strangers to work so hard at correcting my ignorance and looking out for my best interests

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

KJ – serious question here an off-topic…. although I’m still working to fully become RP, at some point I’d like to have more kids. Of course, I’m not yet at the point where it has to be decided but since I’m creeping up on 50, I’ve wondered how a child feels about having an older parent.

Any insights?

Morpheus
Morpheus
5 years ago

Over the last almost 10 or so years in the sphere, though, it’s become plain to me that there are some guys who, dispositionally, can’t accept this. Ha. You and I have been around these parts for a long, long time. It is interesting to me since I’ve seen so many cycles of newbies to see the same debates rehashed over and over again. They’re not all WKs, many of them accept most of the red pill, but they can’t accept the piece about how the broader issues are not solvable, and must be accepted as the context moving forward,… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Zipper, It was difficult, I’m not going to lie. My dad was from the WWII generation, while all my friends had baby boomer parents. This, plus his military background, made him very harsh with me. I’m sure his age didn’t help; I don’t think he was too keen on chasing around a rugrat, playing catch, baseball, etc with me when he was in his 50s. I rebelled after college and lived a bohemian life for a few years, had some new experiences, free of the constraints of the System. I needed that. Then, I plugged back in, on a different… Read more »

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father . . .

That explains a great deal; more importantly it is doing a thing the right way rather than the wrong way.

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

thanks KJ – your perspective is appreciated

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

SJB, Thanks – that may inform why I am the way I am right now. When you’re put into the position to look after someone else and their affairs, it’s hard for it not to bleed over into other areas of life. I suppose it’s the same for when you have children, but caring for a parent is strange because it’s a role-reversal; he care for and protected you, now you’re doing it for him. I don’t have to wipe his ass and stuff (yet – hope never), but I have to look after the house (the house where I… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“If you knew me in real life, you’d see . . .”: Don’t you judge me by what you see on the Internet.

“Some of you guys really live in a strictly theoretical world . . . “: I judge you by what I see on the Internet.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Morpheus

Back then, you still went “out” and looked to meet women first in person, get a number, and go from there.

Same thing today… called Cold Approach. substitute get number with ONS, and proceed. See Field Reports menu…

but tactics are going to vary.

Not so much. Follow Mystery Method attraction model.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“I suppose it’s the same for when you have children, but caring for a parent is strange because it’s a role-reversal; he care for and protected you, now you’re doing it for him.”

I empathize with you. Really. Hang in there.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
5 years ago

Hey Morpheus — In my own experience, in the market for guys in their 40s with your background and “paper”, you will do quite well in terms of attracting attention. The apps are now becoming default, even Tinder, for women in the ages you’re likely looking at (late 20s to early-mid 30s) and there are the same issues of standing out in them as there have always been with dating websites, but you will likely not have as much of an issue standing out as some others might. The usual advice for profile pictures and so on applies, and the… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

kfg, I’d still beat you in an election. You sound like Hillary in the debates, when she’d fact-check Trump and tell the fact-checkers in fact-check land to fact-check. Who won? Pedantically pointing out perceived contradictions in my posts isn’t going to win you any points. This isn’t debate society, it isn’t me on the witness stand being cross-examined. The “audience” gets the drift of what I asserted, that you live in theory-land. I, on the other hand, have explained and detailed specifics from my life that show I’m a fluid guy, and you writing a whole post – albeit well-written… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

ya KJ, it makes sense: *you* know and do the right thing in one area of your life and it’s natural to want the same *rightness* in other areas someone mentioned a while back about ‘implied contracts’ and/or ‘silent contracts’ or the like and although I’d heard of them before, it really hit me this time; one of my biggest realizations was that I had many running assumptions that weren’t shared by my wife, like ‘relationship equity’ and other man-think BP thought patterns; but we also make implied contracts with ourselves and sometimes I catch my dying BP self negotiating… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

And thank you for your kind words re my dad. You do what you gotta do, no need to turn a necessity into a virtue.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

” My advice for an older parent (and I will be one, too, if I have children) is to try to remain youthful so you’ll have the energy and patience to put up with the kid(s). Keep in physical shape, eat right, hit the weights. Also, don’t become mentally calcified – understand what’s going on in the world so your kid doesn’t feel like an alien around his peers because you can’t communicate and guide them in the manner their parents do,.” Very good advice. Veeerrryyyy good. We had debates here numerous time in the past, where young(er) guys without… Read more »

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

@Kid Jupiter: a well known axiom: embrace the suck. This suck ends. Then it sucks more.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Zipper, The contracts thing is interesting. When you get married, they call it “the marriage contract.” It’s basically supposed to be like a business arrangement. You do A, you get B. She does C, she gets D. Worked well for a long time because no one told women they didn’t have to do C to get D, and furthermore, that they could require you to do A and you don’t necessarily get B unless she wants you to. Once they got clued in that they didn’t have to fulfill their end anymore, and that the State would allow them to… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Kid Jupiter What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father, who’s now 94. That explains a lot. There’s bad news and good news. You have to do this, because nobody else will do it right. But you get to do this right, and that will matter to you for a long time. Furthermore: You only have to plan his funeral once, and you only get to plan it once. Don’t let anyone take that job away from you, no matter how well intentioned they may be. Not anyone, even family, gets that job… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

shit, now I’m stuck in this tar baby, too lol Right on with the marriage contract thing, only one side is enforceable; I wonder if this would be a valid legal defense. I think you *know* the RP stuff, but come across as not fully accepting of it yet. Just my opinion but I’ve observed similar behavior in myself and many others who’ve commented on this site. I’m not advocating what G did, but why get so bothered by ‘ought’ vs ‘is’ then if you’re fully RP? Shit, my ex ‘ought’ to have been more loyal and devoted seeing as… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Dr. zipper I’ve wondered how a child feels about having an older parent. Speaking from personal experience, the first time a classmate told me “Your grandfather is here!” and it was actually my father it was strange. I got used to it. Older parents have a different perspective than younger ones do on a lot of things. It’s funny the first time your father tells you your American history book is wrong “I was there, and that’s crap”, later on it’s just interesting. Plus now with an actual blip up in birth rate among women over 35 it won’t be… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

Sometimes being an only child is a hinderance.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50FbeazFkgs&w=560&h=315%5D

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

AR – I’m a fine physical specimen now, played competitive sports my whole life and in great shape. But that’s now and health is one bug or accident away from being gone; true at any age. Any social trepidation to me being an old guy with a young chippie brood mare is just the FI’s hand on my shoulder (lol) and I have to get over that, which I will. My concern is for the child and whether it’s just a generally bad idea. Of course, my standards for fatherhood include active involvement with their raising…. I want to toss… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

My epitaph?

Boss of this whole mother fucking planet

stuffinbox
5 years ago

My only regret is not having spent one more day in the trenches.

Anon01
Anon01
5 years ago

@Morpheus “Anyhow, any advice on specifics would be much appreciated. Obviously, I get the entire RP strategic overlay, but tactics are going to vary. For example, a thirty something lawyer is probably going to look for for a guy like me than a heavily tattooed Harley chick is probably going to be more receptive to a bearded Harley dude. I think I know what my target market should be so any advice on how to most effiiciently get them would be appreciated. TIA” I’m not as old(30s), but fwiw, I think you should watch “The Natural” by RSDMax. You will… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

I’m working to make my epitaph the same as my epithet:

“He Was an Asshole, But We Loved Him Anyway”

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Dr. Zipper:

I think you’re going to have to share that one with Harlan Ellison.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

My advice as an older parent is you play the cards life deals you. Eveything has advantages and disadvantages. I was younger with the 1st two but broke as hell, mostly gone, high stress position, short on patience……Really outside the energy factor I think its mostly upside to be an older parent. With these two, i am around most days, don’t work a regular shift etc, have some spare cash, little more wisdom to make up for the drop in energy, know some cool shit vs learning some cool shit with the 1st two. That’s life. Damn near everything has… Read more »

Morpheus
Morpheus
5 years ago

Anon01,

Thank you. That is the type of specifics I was hoping for

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

stuffin,

Good video, I’m going to watch more of this guy. Rollo posted that other one by him yesterday.

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@kfg – not greedy, I can share; for some reason I’ve always gotten ‘epitaph’ and ‘epithet’ mixed up… makes for some great oopsies

there you go again, Ton, distilling low grade swill into straight punch moonshine

Morpheus
Morpheus
5 years ago

Thanks for the response Nova. It’s also important to keep in mind that women in this age group can be a little tricky to Game because so many of them are in the epiphany/lane changing phase, and so a key issue is getting the women to not place you in the “provider” bucket from the get go, from the first meeting, by your frame, subcoms and overall charm/Game. Yeah, I’m anticipating a potential tradeoff here between say 25-35 and 35-45. I think 35-45 year old women are less likely to be in that “settle down” ephiphany phase, and possibly coming… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Kid

Yes Peterson is very astute. Rugby 11 first introduced me to his vids.

Knish was first introduced by Kfg. also very concise.

John the Miner
John the Miner
5 years ago

Why did the host invite Goldmund to dinner?

stuffinbox
5 years ago

“Why did the host invite Goldmund to dinner?”

First guess;entertainment value.

Next: relationship therapy.

anon
anon
5 years ago

“I’m wondering if there’s enough material for a Rollo take on Kathy Griffith. I don’t think her pathology is getting enough attention.” I think she’s getting too much attention. Laugh at her for cultural appropriation (“privileged class white woman culturally appropriating the proud custom of a marginalized people”…beheadings are an ISIS thing, Yo!) and then set on the “ignore” dial. The more interesting thing to me is that this was a shoot with a famous photographer. So…a lot of people were in the room when that thing was made and no one raised the wtf? flag. That’s what echo chamber… Read more »

anon
anon
5 years ago

I should add, I’d think differently if her sponsors were supporting her. If that were the case I’d want to see a mass boycott of those products. but she has been dumped by everyone and now all we get is her obtuse statements about being bullied and fits of the crying vapors.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
5 years ago

Morpheus — Yep, I was thinking you weren’t exactly chomping at the bit for another wife at this point. It’s a tradeoff, as you say, between these age groups. Most of the women around 40ish are not well maintained, unfortunately, as we all can see. However, it’s also the case that there are more of them who *are* well maintained, at least in the major metros, than ever before due to better health and fitness among a certain small segment of the population. (It’s one of the paradoxes of our age that this trend coexists with the larger trend towards… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

“That’s what echo chamber safe spaces do to people.”

Who the heck is kathy griffith?

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Kathy Griffith’s pathetic press conference was the most laughs she’s ever gotten in her career.

Morpheus
Morpheus
5 years ago

However, it’s also the case that there are more of them who *are* well maintained, at least in the major metros, than ever before due to better health and fitness among a certain small segment of the population. (It’s one of the paradoxes of our age that this trend coexists with the larger trend towards widespread obesity in other population segments.) However, these women are in high demand *for their age*, because they know that for guys who are in the market for a woman of their age, they are at the top of the class and still small in… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Morpheus

“there is always that risk of being slotted into the “potential long-term guy” that subjects you to rules the “short-term fun guy” doesn’t have imposed on him.”

Limit this risk by not starting out in a Husband Hunter acquisition app… Focus on cold approach, where you start out as short term fun guy.

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Morpheus, If you’re in great shape, take some pics and go on Tinder and Bumble. Take some pics that show off your physique and use them. Those apps are the ones where it’s quick-hit – they swipe right if they like your pic, and if you swipe right on their pic, too, then you can chat. Pretty sure that’s how it works. Google strategies for chatting with chicks on these two apps, because there’s a definite formula to it – you’ve got to be quick and pithy and to the point. It’s not like the old days, with Match.com, where… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Kid Jupiter I would concur with KFG in the fact that the reason some of us were giving you shit was because we see value in you. One major reason that you faced such things is that for some of us, what you were saying and kept saying is out and out Blue Pill. Your Frame is nice and virtuous and all, but some of us are more concerned with amoral sexual strategy. I’d certainly like to play on your ball team as a team member, but I wouldn’t want to go picking up girls with you. (And I wouldn’t… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

SJF, Thanks for the kind words. I’m actually a good pickup teammate, too. As I’ve alluded, I haven’t been a saint in my life, I’m only questioning where things are headed now on a societal basis. And I’m fairly tired of the NYC chick shtick A good wingman is essential; so many men don’t have the slightest clue what they’re doing. They’re either too shy, too nervous, or they want to be competitive with their partner – they’re too greedy. This is another example where team-based aptitude is necessary. You need to work together. The last time I really went… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

at least until the epiphany phase when the perspective shifts over and they may be less open to a fling with a hot, sexy older guy.

I find that the girls in the late 20s are often very open to much older guys if those guys move like they are young and act young (not silly, but not giving organ recitals, either).

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

dr. zipper Any social trepidation to me being an old guy with a young chippie brood mare is just the FI’s hand on my shoulder (lol) and I have to get over that, which I will. John Tyler became President of the US in 1841 after President Harrison died. Last time I checked, two of Tyler’s grandsons (not greatgrandsons) are still alive. http://mentalfloss.com/article/29842/president-john-tylers-grandsons-are-still-alive Tyler’s second wife produced a son for him when he was in his 60’s. That son married late also and had two sons when he was in his 50’s or 60’s. So forget the FI pushing on… Read more »

Morpheus
Morpheus
5 years ago

“I would also recommend shaving a few years off your age if can get away with it, if you want to go for younger chicks; they tend to age discriminate on these apps in their search criteria. And increase your height to at least 6’1″ if you can get away with that, too. These are tips I’ve read.” KJ, Thanks for the suggestions. No need for me to lie on height… Like I said upthread I’m a legit 6’3″. I may have to think about the age one a bit, no point in getting disqualified on age with chicks who… Read more »

j
j
5 years ago

@Kid

“I started chatting with her and fending off the fat friend – she was a real mother hen type.”

lol this was your mistake. Gotta befriend the fat girl instead of looking her as your enemy. Group Theory 101. SHE is your wingman.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Age…

Just an arbitrary number.

Lol.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3jGZhGZMRk&w=854&h=480%5D

Sad thing is, in 2017, most chicks aren’t exactly worthy, young or old.

( no homo re: the video. )

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
5 years ago

Goldmunds follow up to the original field report makes it quite clear that he thinks if he had not took advantage of the “urgency of attraction aka Rollos foam party guy” then given the “cool down” period if he had just taken the number and hit her up later he acknowledged the bang probably would not have happened! Red pill is a praxeology and amoral, I’m all about being in the “results business” and goldmunds actions yielded the optimal result in the given situation. I’ve said it before I’ll say it again women are just playthings ( and have no… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Kid

“So, long story longer : Please don’t interpret the fact that I criticized Goldmund”

Would be fascinating if it wasn’t so predictable.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I’ve Got a Secret. Well, actually they do:

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” I’ll say it again women are just playthings. . .”

. . . and then he looked at me and said, “Why tho theoryth?”

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Please don’t interpret the fact that I criticized Goldmund for what he did in that situation as being a criticism of gaming girls, in general – even those with “boyfriends”. After all the drama of the discussion in comments, if you go back and re-read the original post that Rollo made, the reason he wrote it is to admonish Blue Pill Beta orbiters of their faults in awarenss and advocate for Game savvy men to have power to accomplish their goals. Goldmund had a goal and he went for it without apology. He’s not advocating for singular Goldmund Unleashed pursuits.… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

j,

“lol this was your mistake. Gotta befriend the fat girl instead of looking her as your enemy. Group Theory 101. SHE is your wingman.”

That’s what I meant. ‘Fend’ was bad word choice. I was including her in convo, trying to charm her, but there came a point where I needed the wingman to step in so I could isolate with the attractive chick one on one. The reinforcements never arrived.
___________

Poor Sentient. I feel sorry for the guy that he can’t let go. Let it out. Take it out, take it out on meeee.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@KJ

but there came a point where I needed the wingman to step in so I could isolate with the attractive chick one on one.

Surely there was one thirsty chode in the bar…or didn’t you bother to chat up the other men in the bar?

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

ASD,

I was too involved with the girl, it happened very quickly. I didn’t want to disengage her and give the fatty friend solo access to her and then yank her from the venue.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Poor Sentient. I feel sorry for the guy that he can’t let go.”

I have a spidey sense that Sentient let go of a lot more things in life than most men ever acquired.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Kid

Since you an an expert, i’d love to read your explanation of what you did to PR girl’s BF with your tongue being down her throat and your attempt to fuck her and how this was different to what Goldmund did? With all the honor and psychopathy analysis and all…

Was it different because you failed to fuck her? What if it was just the tip?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“. . . and then he looked at me and said, “Why tho theoryth?”

https://youtu.be/qkPGlVqqEP0

Kid Jupiter
Kid Jupiter
5 years ago

Sentient, You’re quite dense. Really dense, like granite. Or lead. 1) I wasn’t at a dinner party with the BF 2) He wasn’t there and I wasn’t doing it right in front of him 3) I wasn’t offending the host who invited me 4) I wouldn’t have fucked her in the bathroom There it is, laid out in 4 easy to understand points. Do you get it yet? What I’ve been saying for over 3 days now? I’m sure you don’t, because you really don’t want to get it, you want to keep picking, keep trying to find a contradiction… Read more »

j
j
5 years ago

@Kid “I didn’t want to disengage her and give the fatty friend solo access to her and then yank her from the venue.” Outcome dependent. If plan A failed (befriend potential cockblock) plan B was to do what theasdgamer said (befriend a chode and throw him to her). She was pissed cause PR girl was getting all the action/attention and she wasn’t. “I told her I knew she was entering a fake # and grabbed the girl’s phone and called my phone, so I had her #. She hustles her off” “Tried to reach the girl few days later but… Read more »

trackback

[…] Commenter Trent Lane had an excellent insight about what ought or ought not to be a Red Pill aware man’s duty to his fellow, unenlightened Blue Pill man. […]

1.1K
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
%d bloggers like this: