The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?


This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sentient
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Here we go… Enter the Yareally Gambit You guys are like the two old guys in the balcony…

Kid you are 4 years younger than me, for the record. And before you get to it, I do not live isolated on a farm… I live in a largish city… been all over… have five kids and a hot wife of over 25 years… So you will need to dig deeper for the made up slights…

But please go on about how everyone is attacking you… Comedy Gold!

Kid Jupiter
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Anon Reader,

You ever look in the mirror yourself?

Emotions are good, when directed. They’re natural, not going anywhere. We all have them. I like to express mine.

What’s wrong with it? Should I strive to be Mr. Spock or LCDR Data on Star Trek, instead? What’s your ideal that I’m not living up to?

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@ Sentient

I never thought the day would come when I’d miss being called a hard head.

Never been called a dickhead though, lol, but I’d hear men talking and laugh when I heard the phrase.

Kid Jupiter
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Blax,

Sentient looks like a citrole after his last comment.

Somehow, the Sicilians managed to make “cucumber” an insult.

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Kid Emotions are good, when directed. They’re natural, not going anywhere. We all have them. I like to express mine. Aaaand KJ runs down another rabbit trail. Kid, your emotional incontinence isn’t the issue, rather it’s the ongoing sub-text. From the start you’ve been emotionally flailing around because the rest of us don’t agree with you, aren’t like you, etc. Did you figure out why Goldmund’s lighting-fast pickup triggers your emotional reaction yet? That would be some good self-knowledge to have. Do you understand why you are so outraged that the rest of us aren’t as outraged? That would be… Read more »

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“Zen . . . Let’s just say was doing more in Seattle in the mid-to-late 90s than playing bass.” I haven’t taught it at Harvard since about 1990. I wanted to title it “I don’t know shit (but then neither do you),” but got overruled by committee. D.T. Suzuki drives me nuts with his going on, and on, and on about how you can’t go on and on about Zen. He never could break away from the academic analytic approach to a subject which is neither academic nor analytical. I found it rather easy to break away from Harvard. Never… Read more »

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Rollo to Kid Jupiter
So either he’s a lot more versatile than you think, or women all over the country are more predictable in their sexual selection protocol than you think.

KJ likely is a Quality Woman sort of man. Maybe that’s why Goldmund’s pickup triggers him emotionally.

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@kfg

What is the sound of one tenured hand clapping?

Anonymous Reader
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Business opportunity here. Merge it with Crossfit and franchise?

http://nypost.com/2017/06/03/this-intensive-boot-camp-is-designed-to-revive-a-mans-primal-nature/

The meta is that this even exists with such a price tag.

Lost Patrol
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Alphas can do this while doing charity work, or burning down a village.

And on the same day. Good one.

kfg
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@KJ: “In a civilized society (which we still live in, I think…), the last two options really aren’t viable . . .”

You must have had a rather narrow exposure to civilization, and gone through that wearing blinders.

You’re projecting “ought” while ignoring “is,” again. Go figure.

@AR: “What is the sound of one tenured hand clapping?”

Hah! No. Wait. Shit!

Sentient
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Kid keeps claiming no one is debating fairly with him… yet when questions he does not wish to answer are posed, he snarkily ignores them, while further claiming unfair tactics are being used against him. Here you go Kid, for the second time Sentient June 2, 2017 at 10:40 am “Kid I’ll try once more to reason with you, you ain’t making it easy and are now in gamma meltdown territory. So assuming arguendo Aussie left her… and she suffer Teh Consequences(TM) as you describe. So what? WHY is it relevant to him? Suggest you ponder this a bit before… Read more »

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Rollo, Nice try regarding Goldmund, but his cross-country drive are also in his wheelhouse because of the anonymity aspect. He can hit and run, he’s not sitting in one smaller-scale place. My assertion is that if he was ‘stuck’ in one place with smaller scale and no anonymity, accountability to smaller-scale groups for his behavior, his current game model wouldn’t work, and might actually be dangerous for him. I’ve read our Alpha post before. You state yourself that it’s a hard concept to define, it’s a mindset, etc. I think it’s best not to clog up the channels with it… Read more »

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Almost forgot Kid’s snappy rejoinder… this is a guy who self proclaim she is great at verbal argument mind you…

Kid Jupiter
June 2, 2017 at 11:30 am
Sentient, I’ll no longer be replying substantively to you or ASD anymore. Keep ranting all you want, if it makes you feel good.

Grow up, guys.

So… killer debating is describing a question you don’t wish to answer as a rant and ploughing on making assertions…

Seems about right.

Sentient
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Here you go Kid, for the second time

I was wrong… my bad. Here you go for the third time….

Kid Jupiter
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Sentient,

Wow, you must have a lot of time on your hands to go back and mine through 850 past comments to cite one I made early in the thread. There have been a lot of developments since then in the discussion, it’s gone into completely different directions.

But, thanks for reminding me that I was supposed to be ignoring you. Let me get back to that. Maybe you’ll come up with something substantive and constructive to post. Or maybe you’ll continue being a cafone. We’ll see.

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Kid to Rollo My assertion is that if he was ‘stuck’ in one place with smaller scale and no anonymity, accountability to smaller-scale groups for his behavior, his current game model wouldn’t work, and might actually be dangerous for him. So what? That’s not going to happen, so what difference does it make? If Goldmund was transported to the Moon with a few hours of oxygen his social skills would be useless…but so what? KJ You’re really starting to bore me. I’ve been quite clear that it’s not the “lightning fast pickup” that triggers me, it’s the context in which… Read more »

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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me up when Anon Reader is done. I’ve already discussed these issues regarding the Goldmund thing. Maybe Sentient can digest the transcript for him – he’s good at that.

kfg
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KJ: “My assertion is that if he was ‘stuck’ in one place . . .”

Yes. If all the parameters of the interaction were changed, then everything would have been different.

We get it.

Sentient
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Kid

From a guy who is great at arguing and swears he is swaying the unseen crowd [though that conceit is a whoooole other topic], not impressive but par for this course… I thought real estate closings, now I’m thinking run of the mill wills.

Kid Jupiter
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YES!! Kfg gets something I said! I’m truly ecstatic. I may even get drunk on a schoolnight tonight in celebration!! Ha

Ok, kids in Powdunk, Middle America: don’t try Goldmund’s “pickup a chick and fuck her in the bathroom in front of the guy who brought her to the dinner party” in your small hometown! That only works without social (and maybe physical) consequences in the anonymous, large-scale big city or when you have the luxury of blowing out of town quickly on your cross country trip, like Trust Fund Goldmund.

It rhymes.

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Kid, why does Goldmund’s pickup trigger you? Why are you afraid to find out?
and why do these qustions bother you?

Of course Goldmund could only exist and run his Game in modern times. No way any man could have done that 200 or more years ago when society was simpler. Right?

https://infogalactic.com/info/Giacomo_Casanova

Right.

Sentient
thought real estate closings, now I’m thinking run of the mill wills.

Looking that way.

kfg
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“Ok, kids in Powdunk, Middle America . . .”

It’s spelled “Podunk,” and I’m not in it, but it’s within bicycle day trip distance from here. Not figuratively, literally.

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Ok, kids in Powdunk, Middle America: don’t try Goldmund’s “pickup a chick and fuck her in the bathroom in front of the guy who brought her to the dinner party” in your small hometown! That only works without social (and maybe physical) consequences in the anonymous, large-scale big city or when you have the luxury of blowing out of town quickly on your cross country trip, like Trust Fund Goldmund. In addition to my and ARs questions, you’ll also have to explain how in this civilized society you swear we still live in you keep coming back to the threat… Read more »

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I’d like Goldmund to follow up with the girl on what happend next… I bet it went something like this… Aussie: Did you fuck that guy!!! Girl: Do you think I’m just some slut that fucks strangers in the bathroom?!!! Aussie: Well you came back all red… Ah ehhhmm… Uh… Girl: So you’re calling me. Slut! You pervert!!! Aussie: I uh… No… I mean.. I don’t know.. Uh…. Girl: You said you loved me. If you REALLY loved me you would never accuse me of anything like this!!!! Aussie: uh baby… I DO love you… I’m sorry I just… Ahhh….… Read more »

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Last time I’m saying it. Only repeating on more time: Goldmund picking up the chick in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. The context he did it in, the brazenness of it, does. I’ve detailed why; I believe it’s dishonorable and short-sighted. It was definitely a good object lesson on what hypergamy is capable of, but I also think it’s irresponsible to pass this off as something guys can get away with outside the context in which G lives and operates. Don’t disrespect the Sky God and not expecr repercussions. I’m not talking about me, I’m just the Kid. I’m… Read more »

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“… I bet it went something like this…”

I wouldn’t bet on it, but I’m afraid that it might well have. The guy has taken the lab, but he doesn’t have anyone to give him the theory. If he doesn’t do The Google Search he’ll have a hard time coming to make sense of it.

Even if it didn’t go down that way, he’ll still probably end up at NAWALT.

Sentient
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Kid

I apologize. I misread you. It was there the whole time.

In-house.

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@Kid Jupiter, I’ve enjoyed reading your comments. You are a principled man. I respect that. Yet forget about all the other commenters right now and how you feel about them, and then seriously consider this point: At no point in your comments have you every said that THE GIRL is the psychopath (psychopath: uncaring person with shallow emotions). She accepts an expensive plane ride to America knowing the Aussie likes her and will want some action and takes the ticket anyway. She gets there and stays in his room and knowingly flirts with Goldmund in front of him and them… Read more »

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@Kid Jupiter

A major part of the many Blue Pill ideals Betas try to realize through the use of Red Pill tools is the hope of “vanquishing” an “Evil” man, in order to purchase the right to THEN flood the bitch with neediness and validation-seeking. It’s just one more step. Making every man in the world responsible for making sure your Beta game succeeds works in a Beta’s head because he stupidly believes every “real” man is trying to get pussy the same way; HIS socially approved way.

But he’s playing the sucker’s game. Some men don’t WANT to be suckers.

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“At no point in your comments have you every said that THE GIRL is the psychopath . . .”

To be fair, he has said that she has the attributes that would be considered psychopathic if she were a man. Ironically, given the venue, it is his absolute rejection of an equalist frame that is part of what is getting him into “trouble” here. Which I’m sure contributes to his confusion over being “attacked.”

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Sentient
I bet it went something like this…

I don’t LOL much, but LOL. Because it’s true.

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Once upon a time years ago I accidentally triggered a little party girl in a social non-party context by labeling her with the nickname “Teasey”. She got all up in my face with “Are you calling me a TEASER?” but her friends dragged her away before I got my answer out. She had a whole rationalization hamster-run full of reasons why her cock teasing behavior was anything but teasing. I never apologized for that and her friend kept hanging around me, it was a mystery at the time. Gosh, I must have been frustrating to those girls. Almost as though… Read more »

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KJ: The kids in Podunk won’t listen — they are the enlisted material, remember?

I doubt there is a per-capita difference, by population density, in bathroom-lays-by-not-the-escort.

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@kfg, I must have missed that comment. perhaps I should put it another way with analogy: All of us have “debate lanes” we choose to lead with as the most important to us. Kid chooses to lead with the “guys should do what’s noble” debate lane. The older guys here choose to lead with the “cats are cats, so it’s our burden and responsibility to master them” debate lane. Red Pill more closely follows the cats are cats lane. This lane is where mastery lies. White Knights and principled betas more closely follow the noble lane. This lane is the… Read more »

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I’m now at the point of dealing with that reality, and part of that process (for me) is looking at it and analyzing it from the larger, ‘meta’, socio-cultural level, where we’re headed collectively as a society, and how to forestall a complete collapse of any semblance of a social contract due to the complete unleashing of female hypergamy, effected by the removal of all social constraints on it. This is all a waste of time and mental energy. I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to… Read more »

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Kid Last time I’m saying it Heh. Goldmund picking up the chick in and of itself, doesn’t bother me. The context he did it in, the brazenness of it, does. I’ve detailed why; I believe it’s dishonorable and short-sighted. The context is part of the pickup. Why you can’t or won’t see this is curious. Lack of experience? Your “dishonorable” is laughable. By the older, more tradtional standards of honor Aussie guy was dishonorable in bringing that girl over in the first place for any purpose other than (a) supervised employment or (b) marriage. By the older standards you don’t… Read more »

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@SJB:

I once knew a girl who you could trigger by looking at and saying, “Cornfield.”

Just because in a small town everyone knows what you’ve been doing almost before you do, doesn’t mean it doesn’t get done.

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newlyaloof
All of us have “debate lanes” we choose to lead with as the most important to us. Kid chooses to lead with the “guys should do what’s noble” debate lane. The older guys here choose to lead with the “cats are cats, so it’s our burden and responsibility to master them” debate lane.

Concise. Concur.

Kid Jupiter
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Not to be morbid here, but you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be? (Don’t misread that as a barbaric Sicilian threat. It’s a legit question.)

I’m going to follow Mickey Mantle’s Yankee Stadium monument:

“A Great Teammate.”

That’s how I want to be remembered. As a great teammate on all the “teams” I’ve played on. Guys always knew I had their back and would do my best to pick them up.

How do you want to be remembered?

BTW, I’m being cremated. Burial in a cemetery is a vainglorious waste of real estate that someone like me could be closing.

Kid Jupiter
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Anon Reader,

You’re lost. I feel for you, brother. Get well.

Sentient
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Newly

How are things?

I don’t think Kid’s a white knight, but he is frustrated with the system as it is.

The worst kind of WK is the one who is doing it to other dudes – on behalf of All Women.

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This is all a waste of time and mental energy. I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal Precisely correct, Morpheus. Over the last almost 10 or so years in the sphere, though, it’s become plain to me that there are some guys who, dispositionally, can’t accept this. They’re not all WKs, many of them accept most of the red pill, but they can’t accept the piece about how the broader issues… Read more »

Sentient
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Mickey… the All-American Boy As Yankee Stadium approached its 50th birthday in 1972, team officials requested memories from their greatest players of their favorite memories at the stadium. Mantle—a three-time MVP, Triple Crown winner (leading the league in home runs, runs batted in, and batting average in the same season), and seven-time World Series champ—surely had plenty from which to choose. He chose none. When filling out the form from the Yankees, Mantle answered the statement, “I consider the following my outstanding experience at Yankee Stadium” like this: “I got a blow job under the right field bleachers by the… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@KJ Not to be morbid here, but you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be? I was recently at the funeral of an in-law…he was foreign…the only blood relative there was his son…his widow was there, too…and the small church was packed. The man was well-loved and missed. I’ll be surprised if more than five people show up at my funeral. So I’ve thought about this a little. Mrs. Gamer has said that she would never marry again or have any romance after I go, assuming I go first, so there’s that. And there are probably… Read more »

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@Sentient, it’s strangely good right now. When I have time, I’ll fill in the gaps, but I’ll leave some detail. Took advice from a while ago about lawyering up just in case. Contacted a nationwide law firm that specializes in men’s representation just so I could get a 1-hour consult as to what to expect, terms, costs, etc. I get assigned a woman lawyer. I’m thinking, “Can’t they find any dudes for this,” but I brush it off. Go to the appointment, lawyer is 5 minutes late … 10 minutes late … nobody telling he she’ll be right out. I… Read more »

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Morpheus I think most RP guys are rightly focused on improving their individual lives, not analyzing macro societal changes and how to change society. RP is the polar opposite of feminism in that the political is personal Not just individual lives but family as well. There are men here with daughters, wives, sons, other relations. Leading all of them in a solid RP way is the best for all concerned, and that includes the churchgoing men. Dalrock has another posting on the divorce industry up, the only way to fight it is one man at a time. Everything else isn’t… Read more »

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Kid Jupiter
Anon Reader,

You’re lost.

Maybe. But I know how to read a compass and use it with a map. Yet I can find my backside without using map, compass or GPS. Go figure, eh?

theasdgamer
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Lol, CNN has been busted rigging a protest event with Muslims supposedly protesting against ISIS:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/06/shock-video-cnn-creates-fakenews-london-following-terror-attacks-stages-anti-isis-muslim-protesters/

Kid Jupiter
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Great, seems like now I’m stimulating Sentient’s imagination to conjure up that I’m WKing for all women. Is that what that comment meant, or am I being defensive because every post of his is about me in some way?

Regarding the Mick, good for him re the BJ. Doesn’t take away from the fact that he was a great teammate on the field. And, I’ve read that despite his substance abuse problems, he was a good teammate off of it, too.

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Sentient
And he signed it, “Mickey Mantle, The All-American Boy.”

But he did it for the team…

kfg
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” . . . you guys ever think about what your epitaph is going to be?” Sure. It’s even, more or less, arisen as a subject here (under the title “legacy”). “I’m going to follow Mickey Mantle’s Yankee Stadium monument: “A Great Teammate.”” We know, that’s what we’ve been telling you. I have not said it in every possible permutation, but I’ve covered the major variants pretty thoroughly, and now we’re just getting into reruns, which I’m sure must be frustrating for you. I haven’t done the Genghis Kahn spiel though, because the frame you’re coming from is more appropriately… Read more »

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NewlyAloof When I have time, I’ll fill in the gaps, but I’ll leave some detail. Please do, if nothing else some other man will learn from your experience. A woman lawyer could be an asset to a man in a divorce action if she’s totally committed to her client. Looks like you need to shop around. I Am Not A Lawyer but if you drop some retainer money on one your ex won’t be able to use him/her/it, so if you are in smalltown you could sew up all the good ones with a one time investment. That could be… Read more »

kfg
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“I reckon someone is just seriously pissed that Goldmund is excellent at nailing tail and they’re not.”

And to illustrate how bass ackwards this thread is, I just waxed loquacious and somebody else summed it up in a pithy one liner.

Sentient
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Regarding the Mick, good for him re the BJ.

Now if that girl was at the park with some guy and told him she’d be right back, she was going to get a hot dog… well then…

kfg
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@KF: “I’m stimulating Sentient’s imagination to conjure up that I’m WKing for all women.”

It’s your entire existence, right down to your core. Civilization was built by men, but for women. And civil life is feminized life.

Men don’t want a little gingerbread cottage and a paper shuffling cubicle to pay for it. Men want to go out hunting, fishing and fighting. When they get permission to leave the cubicle, and if The Boss gives them “permission,” that’s what they do for fun.

Trump is the Man
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Just want to say that was a GREAT GREAT GREAT article-both yours and Goldmund’s. I’ve never realized until now that I can use beta-men’s misfortune to my own advantage. Typically I just get mesmorized by the ensuing train-wreck I’m witnessing; it never occurred to me to be an opportunist in the moment.

I’m wondering if there’s enough material for a Rollo take on Kathy Griffith. I don’t think her pathology is getting enough attention. I wonder if all rabid fems feel this way towards their chosen man of hate. Instinct & Intuition say YES

kfg
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“It’s your entire existence, right down to your core.”

OK, that’s an exaggeration. I retract and apologize. You’re half savage.

Kid Jupiter
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Delta, Delta, Delta, can I help ya help ya help ya? HA Whatever you say, kfg. These “SMV” hierarchies are theoretical models, anyway. If you knew me in real life, you’d see I “make the rules” very often, in many situations. I also “follow the rules” very often, in other situations. The reason is because THAT’S LIFE. (Cue Sinatra.) Rules exist for a reason. Some rules are stupid, yes. Others, not so much – they’re important for keeping society together. There are different levels of rules. Rules rules rules. We are Alphas in some situations, betas in others, deltas, upsilons,… Read more »

dr zipper
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@kfg, okay, I was hoping to wait out this cluck-fest until Rollo can put out a new post but your delta/teammate comment drew me back out….. it’s damn good one!!

speaking of good teammates, if I ever need it, I hope that I too can get strangers to work so hard at correcting my ignorance and looking out for my best interests

dr zipper
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KJ – serious question here an off-topic…. although I’m still working to fully become RP, at some point I’d like to have more kids. Of course, I’m not yet at the point where it has to be decided but since I’m creeping up on 50, I’ve wondered how a child feels about having an older parent.

Any insights?

Morpheus
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Over the last almost 10 or so years in the sphere, though, it’s become plain to me that there are some guys who, dispositionally, can’t accept this. Ha. You and I have been around these parts for a long, long time. It is interesting to me since I’ve seen so many cycles of newbies to see the same debates rehashed over and over again. They’re not all WKs, many of them accept most of the red pill, but they can’t accept the piece about how the broader issues are not solvable, and must be accepted as the context moving forward,… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
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Zipper, It was difficult, I’m not going to lie. My dad was from the WWII generation, while all my friends had baby boomer parents. This, plus his military background, made him very harsh with me. I’m sure his age didn’t help; I don’t think he was too keen on chasing around a rugrat, playing catch, baseball, etc with me when he was in his 50s. I rebelled after college and lived a bohemian life for a few years, had some new experiences, free of the constraints of the System. I needed that. Then, I plugged back in, on a different… Read more »

SJB
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What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father . . .

That explains a great deal; more importantly it is doing a thing the right way rather than the wrong way.

dr zipper
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thanks KJ – your perspective is appreciated

Kid Jupiter
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SJB, Thanks – that may inform why I am the way I am right now. When you’re put into the position to look after someone else and their affairs, it’s hard for it not to bleed over into other areas of life. I suppose it’s the same for when you have children, but caring for a parent is strange because it’s a role-reversal; he care for and protected you, now you’re doing it for him. I don’t have to wipe his ass and stuff (yet – hope never), but I have to look after the house (the house where I… Read more »

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“If you knew me in real life, you’d see . . .”: Don’t you judge me by what you see on the Internet.

“Some of you guys really live in a strictly theoretical world . . . “: I judge you by what I see on the Internet.

Sentient
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Morpheus

Back then, you still went “out” and looked to meet women first in person, get a number, and go from there.

Same thing today… called Cold Approach. substitute get number with ONS, and proceed. See Field Reports menu…

but tactics are going to vary.

Not so much. Follow Mystery Method attraction model.

kfg
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“I suppose it’s the same for when you have children, but caring for a parent is strange because it’s a role-reversal; he care for and protected you, now you’re doing it for him.”

I empathize with you. Really. Hang in there.

Novaseeker
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Hey Morpheus — In my own experience, in the market for guys in their 40s with your background and “paper”, you will do quite well in terms of attracting attention. The apps are now becoming default, even Tinder, for women in the ages you’re likely looking at (late 20s to early-mid 30s) and there are the same issues of standing out in them as there have always been with dating websites, but you will likely not have as much of an issue standing out as some others might. The usual advice for profile pictures and so on applies, and the… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
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kfg, I’d still beat you in an election. You sound like Hillary in the debates, when she’d fact-check Trump and tell the fact-checkers in fact-check land to fact-check. Who won? Pedantically pointing out perceived contradictions in my posts isn’t going to win you any points. This isn’t debate society, it isn’t me on the witness stand being cross-examined. The “audience” gets the drift of what I asserted, that you live in theory-land. I, on the other hand, have explained and detailed specifics from my life that show I’m a fluid guy, and you writing a whole post – albeit well-written… Read more »

dr zipper
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ya KJ, it makes sense: *you* know and do the right thing in one area of your life and it’s natural to want the same *rightness* in other areas someone mentioned a while back about ‘implied contracts’ and/or ‘silent contracts’ or the like and although I’d heard of them before, it really hit me this time; one of my biggest realizations was that I had many running assumptions that weren’t shared by my wife, like ‘relationship equity’ and other man-think BP thought patterns; but we also make implied contracts with ourselves and sometimes I catch my dying BP self negotiating… Read more »

Kid Jupiter
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And thank you for your kind words re my dad. You do what you gotta do, no need to turn a necessity into a virtue.

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” My advice for an older parent (and I will be one, too, if I have children) is to try to remain youthful so you’ll have the energy and patience to put up with the kid(s). Keep in physical shape, eat right, hit the weights. Also, don’t become mentally calcified – understand what’s going on in the world so your kid doesn’t feel like an alien around his peers because you can’t communicate and guide them in the manner their parents do,.” Very good advice. Veeerrryyyy good. We had debates here numerous time in the past, where young(er) guys without… Read more »

SJB
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@Kid Jupiter: a well known axiom: embrace the suck. This suck ends. Then it sucks more.

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Zipper, The contracts thing is interesting. When you get married, they call it “the marriage contract.” It’s basically supposed to be like a business arrangement. You do A, you get B. She does C, she gets D. Worked well for a long time because no one told women they didn’t have to do C to get D, and furthermore, that they could require you to do A and you don’t necessarily get B unless she wants you to. Once they got clued in that they didn’t have to fulfill their end anymore, and that the State would allow them to… Read more »

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Kid Jupiter
What I haven’t told you guys is I’m also the primary caretaker for my father, who’s now 94.

That explains a lot. There’s bad news and good news. You have to do this, because nobody else will do it right. But you get to do this right, and that will matter to you for a long time.

Furthermore:
You only have to plan his funeral once, and you only get to plan it once. Don’t let anyone take that job away from you, no matter how well intentioned they may be. Not anyone, even family, gets that job except you.

dr zipper
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shit, now I’m stuck in this tar baby, too lol Right on with the marriage contract thing, only one side is enforceable; I wonder if this would be a valid legal defense. I think you *know* the RP stuff, but come across as not fully accepting of it yet. Just my opinion but I’ve observed similar behavior in myself and many others who’ve commented on this site. I’m not advocating what G did, but why get so bothered by ‘ought’ vs ‘is’ then if you’re fully RP? Shit, my ex ‘ought’ to have been more loyal and devoted seeing as… Read more »

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Dr. zipper I’ve wondered how a child feels about having an older parent. Speaking from personal experience, the first time a classmate told me “Your grandfather is here!” and it was actually my father it was strange. I got used to it. Older parents have a different perspective than younger ones do on a lot of things. It’s funny the first time your father tells you your American history book is wrong “I was there, and that’s crap”, later on it’s just interesting. Plus now with an actual blip up in birth rate among women over 35 it won’t be… Read more »

stuffinbox
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Sometimes being an only child is a hinderance.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50FbeazFkgs&w=560&h=315%5D

dr zipper
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AR – I’m a fine physical specimen now, played competitive sports my whole life and in great shape. But that’s now and health is one bug or accident away from being gone; true at any age. Any social trepidation to me being an old guy with a young chippie brood mare is just the FI’s hand on my shoulder (lol) and I have to get over that, which I will. My concern is for the child and whether it’s just a generally bad idea. Of course, my standards for fatherhood include active involvement with their raising…. I want to toss… Read more »

SFC Ton
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My epitaph?

Boss of this whole mother fucking planet

stuffinbox
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My only regret is not having spent one more day in the trenches.

Anon01
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@Morpheus “Anyhow, any advice on specifics would be much appreciated. Obviously, I get the entire RP strategic overlay, but tactics are going to vary. For example, a thirty something lawyer is probably going to look for for a guy like me than a heavily tattooed Harley chick is probably going to be more receptive to a bearded Harley dude. I think I know what my target market should be so any advice on how to most effiiciently get them would be appreciated. TIA” I’m not as old(30s), but fwiw, I think you should watch “The Natural” by RSDMax. You will… Read more »

dr zipper
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I’m working to make my epitaph the same as my epithet:

“He Was an Asshole, But We Loved Him Anyway”

kfg
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@Dr. Zipper:

I think you’re going to have to share that one with Harlan Ellison.

SFC Ton
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My advice as an older parent is you play the cards life deals you. Eveything has advantages and disadvantages. I was younger with the 1st two but broke as hell, mostly gone, high stress position, short on patience……Really outside the energy factor I think its mostly upside to be an older parent. With these two, i am around most days, don’t work a regular shift etc, have some spare cash, little more wisdom to make up for the drop in energy, know some cool shit vs learning some cool shit with the 1st two. That’s life. Damn near everything has… Read more »

Morpheus
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Anon01,

Thank you. That is the type of specifics I was hoping for

Kid Jupiter
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stuffin,

Good video, I’m going to watch more of this guy. Rollo posted that other one by him yesterday.

dr zipper
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@kfg – not greedy, I can share; for some reason I’ve always gotten ‘epitaph’ and ‘epithet’ mixed up… makes for some great oopsies

there you go again, Ton, distilling low grade swill into straight punch moonshine

Morpheus
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Thanks for the response Nova. It’s also important to keep in mind that women in this age group can be a little tricky to Game because so many of them are in the epiphany/lane changing phase, and so a key issue is getting the women to not place you in the “provider” bucket from the get go, from the first meeting, by your frame, subcoms and overall charm/Game. Yeah, I’m anticipating a potential tradeoff here between say 25-35 and 35-45. I think 35-45 year old women are less likely to be in that “settle down” ephiphany phase, and possibly coming… Read more »

stuffinbox
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@Kid

Yes Peterson is very astute. Rugby 11 first introduced me to his vids.

Knish was first introduced by Kfg. also very concise.

John the Miner
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Why did the host invite Goldmund to dinner?

stuffinbox
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“Why did the host invite Goldmund to dinner?”

First guess;entertainment value.

Next: relationship therapy.

anon
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“I’m wondering if there’s enough material for a Rollo take on Kathy Griffith. I don’t think her pathology is getting enough attention.”

I think she’s getting too much attention.
Laugh at her for cultural appropriation (“privileged class white woman culturally appropriating the proud custom of a marginalized people”…beheadings are an ISIS thing, Yo!) and then set on the “ignore” dial.
The more interesting thing to me is that this was a shoot with a famous photographer.
So…a lot of people were in the room when that thing was made and no one raised the wtf? flag.
That’s what echo chamber safe spaces do to people.

anon
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I should add, I’d think differently if her sponsors were supporting her. If that were the case I’d want to see a mass boycott of those products. but she has been dumped by everyone and now all we get is her obtuse statements about being bullied and fits of the crying vapors.

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