The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

This week my fellow 21 Convention speaker and good friend Goldmund posted a very poignant essay about his experience stealing a girl away from her Blue Pill orbiter for a same night lay. I’ll paraphrase a bit of it here as I riff on it, but do click over to his blog and read the entire exchange.

Before I do though, let me first begin by stating that I have been the Blue Pill orbiter Goldmund describes here. I think too many readers seem to think I write from some position of Alpha authority; as if I’ve always been the lesser Alpha I am today. I’m sorry if this disillusions anyone, but I’ve run the gamut from being a well-conditioned Blue Pill Beta, to being a verified-by-social proof rock star Alpha, to dropping almost into an Omega status with a BPD girlfriend, to maturing into a Red Pill aware, lesser Alpha I would humbly think of myself as today.

A lot of critics, and even a handful of Red Pill men I know, have a real tough time with what they believe are arbitrary terms – Alpha, Beta, Omega, Blue/Red Pill, etc. – but let me reiterate here that these terms have always been abstracts. They are placeholder words for larger ideas, not binary definitions. A lot of critics also, erroneously, believe that Blue Pill, Beta, Omega, White Knight, etc. are some dismissive insult to end a conversation with, rather than, again, the abstract terms used to describe a man’s condition. I’ve made it clear in prior posts that being Beta or Blue Pill isn’t a life sentence, and neither should it merit our scorn beyond the ignorance that man happens to be a subject of.

I’m prefacing this here because sometimes it’s hard to look at ourselves, or our past selves, from the perspective of a guy who is enduring the same Blue Pill conditioned delusions we had. The Blue Pill orbiter’s role in Goldmund’s story here is a guy I’m sure most Red Pill men can somewhat empathize (if not sympathize) with because they were this guy also. They made the same decisions based on the same foolish Blue Pill preconceptions about women, and due to the same ignorance and lack of any Red Pill awareness we once had. So in this respect, try to understand the following from an objective perspective of what it was like to be that ‘hopeless Blue Pill orbiter’ basing decisions on old books social understanding.

To outline the story briefly, Goldmund was invited to socialize with a friend and what he’d thought was a couple; a nice looking 23 year old woman and her dutiful Beta ‘pseudo-husband’ (edited for content):

It was Sunday evening, the weather was pleasant, and being around a group of great guys who were eager to learn had me in extra fine spirits. A text came in from a friend who said he was hosting some people from out of town and wanted me to join them all for dinner. I met them at a restaurant and sat down to eat.

At first I thought the two attractive people he was hosting were a couple. They were both from Australia and sitting next to each other at the table. I noticed that the guy was catering to the girl, not standing his ground in conversation, and ended up paying for her.

After dinner we all went to a bar where a band was playing, the girl came over to me and we started to chat. I immediately asked her “so, is that your husband?” and she responded with “oh, no, he’s just a friend” and gave a hungry ‘save me’ look.

[…] The Australian guy stood next to the girl while I walked closer to the front, and after the first song, I looked back and waved her over. She came right away and the guy glared at me like I was Satan.

She stood right in front of me and began dancing a little. While I rubbed my crotch on her wiggling ass, my hands went to her hips, then felt up her flat stomach before caressing her big boobs.

I said into her ear, “I’m going to take you on a date right now” and she looked back and smiled.

At this point you can probably see where this is going. One thing I think is very important to point out here is that Beta male orbiters of most stripes can simultaneously end up being their own worst enemies while reinforcing the Alpha impression of his sexual competitors. In most cases, that orbiter’s status is set in woman’s hindbrain and as such any other man’s status whom she happens to encounter is measured against his. Game savvy men should (usually do) know that Beta orbiters are an opportunity to establish an implied social proof. Orbiters actually strengthen your Game and SMV because of his baseline status and subconscious comparing of Hypergamous options.

Women want men who other men want to be and other women want to fuck. Whether it’s actually true or not, to a woman’s mind, her impression of your orbiter’s status means you are a man who wants to be like the competing Alpha – the guy who she and other women want to fuck.

In most instances there’s no real reason to AMOG an orbiter. We’ll get to this in a bit, but understand now that most orbiters are unwitting volunteers in aiding a Red Pill, Game aware, man boost his signal, so to speak, by complaining, doubting and criticizing the efficacy (or ethics) of it. In doing so, his less (or non) competitive status is also reinforced with every positive response a woman returns for that Red Pill awareness.

Remember, stay objective here, focus on what’s transpiring and why it’s working. Whether you’re the Blue Pill orbiter or the Red Pill seducer in a scenario like this, the real education comes from observing the process.

Goldmund continues:

We went to the back of the venue, and my friend came up to me and said “hey man, listen, that guy is really upset that you are hitting on the girl”.

“Well she surely isn’t going to fuck him, they aren’t together”

“Yeah, but he paid for her to come out to New York [from Australia], and last night, he told her that he loved her”

I couldn’t help but burst out laughing.

While this conversation was going on, the guy went up to the girl and begged her not to leave with me. At this point, I despised him, especially after my friend informed me that he had referred to me as ‘a creepy predator’, and wanted to teach him a lesson that stung. Especially since he was taller, better looking, and much more arrogant than me.

Right about here you’ll probably have a real tough time with the ethics of this scenario, but lets run down a few of the facts we know at this stage. First, ‘Pseudo-Husband’ is now the kind of Beta who pays for non-interested, or semi-interested women to go on international trips with him. This in itself is material for an entire post, but any Red Pill aware guy knows the mindset of the Beta sexual resource exchange – also known as the Savior Schema.

Just as an aside, I think this schema becomes all the more interesting when you account for the Sugar Babies companionship/sex dynamic going on today. It might be easy to think a Sugar Daddy paying for a woman’s exclusive attention would simply vote that girl off the island by closing his wallet, but when you mix pride, alcohol, Beta Game and expectation-but-not-expectation of sex with a Sugar Baby, well, that can make for a very volatile outcome. There’s a certain expectation of ROI when you pay for a woman’s international vacation.

Obviously Goldmund’s approach shifts at this stage, but, being the seasoned seduction artist he is, he has more than enough intel on the guy and IOIs from the girl to get the lay. At this point I expect Goldmund made it personal, but we’ll discuss this towards the end.

‘Pseudo-Husband’s’ impression of Goldmund as “creepy predator” is another tell as to his Blue Pill conditioned mindset. “Creepy predator” is fem-speak. It’s what I expect to hear come from a woman’s mouth, but when it comes from a man it’s a giveaway as to his conditioning; in this case feminine-primary.

As I’d rather not copy and paste all of Goldmund’s story here, I’ll ask that you read the sexual details on his site. Suffice it to say Goldmund expertly Games this woman and has quick-hit sex with her at the venue they were at. However, to continue with the analysis of this girl’s orbiter, let’s skip ahead to some select quotes:

Her face was red and we had been gone for about 20 minutes, so when we returned to the table, I’m 100% sure that everyone knew what just went down. The guy didn’t say a word while the rest of us chatted about sex over drinks, and when I got up to go home, he didn’t say goodbye. As I was leaving I told my friend to mention The Rational Male to him.

Major lessons found in this one, and they are so clear because a few years ago, I could picture myself being in the loser’s situation (I wouldn’t go so far as to pay for a chick to fly across the world, but I’ve done some extremely pathetic things in attempts to woo girls).

Game taught me that girls are incredibly sexual creatures, love being dirty, think about sex often, need it, and want to get fucked by men who are wild.

I’m sure the Australian guy never thought the girl was capable of having sex in a bar bathroom by a stranger, yet it happened right under his nose. Its hard to think of a bigger example of getting friend-zoned than this guy who had spent 1000s of dollars on the girl to confess his ‘love’ for her, only to be cucked by some Playboy she just met.

I think this is one of the hardest lessons a Blue Pill man has to learn before he understands the importance of being Red Pill aware. Most ‘Nice Guy’ orbiters/friends never really need to be AMOG’d by a sexual rival because they’re ignorant of the nature of Hypergamy. Even the ones who’ve experienced it personally from a woman, or having it flaunted in their face via commercial Open Hypergamy, these men still want their dream girl to somehow be different. Many a White Knight has been knocked from his horse after having the truth of women’s sexual natures viscerally illustrated for him. It’s the guys who go into denial, who fall back on the “Quality Woman” rationale and get back on the white horse who are truly lost.

I’ve been friend-zoned before and remember it being some of the most frustrating, mentally clouding times of my life. This guy was seething with anger so bad, he couldn’t even speak–or attempt to fight. The friend-zone is anguishing. Overcoming it happened when I started reading stories like the one above, started assuming every girl has slutty tendencies and will use weak guys for money, attention, gifts, or whatever it is that they are lacking.

Having your Blue Pill ego-investments dispelled in such a brutal fashion often leads to two types of misdirected anger: anger at the sexual rival who just schooled you in the most personal way about women’s Hypergamous sexual natures, and anger with a woman (or women) who are simply incapable of appreciating, or abiding, by the old social contracts, the old books he believes they ought to be.

This anger is not so much about a loss of investment as it is about a Blue Pill man having his inner world destroyed by outer world facts.

There was a point in my own life when I was something very similar to the Australian guy. I’m glad Goldmund mentioned my site and books to this guy’s friend because I’m still hopeful for men like this. I’ve had a few men in my Red Pill sphere tell me I ought not to care about men who don’t want, or don’t know how, to intrasexually compete; either due to their arrogance or ignorance. But that’s not what my goal is. While I understand that sometimes it’s necessary to Ghost on men at times, that’s never going to be my first impulse.

If the dude was cool about the situation and humble enough to talk to me like an adult about it, I would have gladly given him some advice and probably just got the girls number at some point and arranged to meet her privately.

Ego is the reason most people stay bluepill, you have to be honest with yourself and admit when something is wrong. And then find ways to fix it.

Hypergamy and Evolution want Hoes Before Bros

I understand Goldmund’s sentiment here. About 9 months, maybe a year ago I ran a Twitter poll asking whether it should be considered a Red Pill aware man’s duty to educate Beta men about their Blue Pill beliefs and why it’s the source of a lot of their troubles. For the most part, the consensus was that men should help other guys. That’s encouraging, but it’s also not always advisable. I find it fascinating that despite all of the attraction and arousal Red Pill aware men can knowingly generate in women with Dark Triad personality traits, they still believe they can compartmentalize those traits when it comes to helping their fellow man.

Should Goldmund have backed off this girl out of respect for a man who was obviously trapped in a Blue Pill negative feedback loop with her? Or did he do both him and her a favor?

I’ve personally had one of my best friends bang a girl I was locked in the friendzone with. This was a girl I’d tried for months to get her to sexually respond to my pathetically Blue Pill “I really care” Beta Game. I vividly remember (I was 19) the night I introduced him to her and so began a literal fuck-fest between the two of them that lasted about 2 months after only meeting for an hour that night. It was a hard kick in the teeth to take, one my friend and the girl showed absolutely no remorse or regret for, but it taught me a very valuable lesson. All the bullshit about “bros before hoes” all the idealistic pretty Blue Pill lies I believed about being friends and comfort first before sex went right out the window that week – where they belonged.

Personally it was hard to take, but objectively it was exactly what I needed to experience. I think this is a hard line for even a lot of Red Pill men to really cross today. Granted, I expect Goldmund was really into banging this girl that night more than he wanted to teach this guy some object lesson, but I think it’s going to be a really difficult area for Red Pill guys to sort out for themselves when it comes to “helping” Blue Pill guys unplug.

I’m reminded of the story about the guy who taped the note about banging another guy’s girlfriend under the toilet seat.

What is a Red Pill aware man’s ethical responsibility to Blue Pill men?

This is a two-part series of posts. In the next post I’ll consider how Red Pill men might deal with Blue Pill men in non-sexually competitive situations, and the advantages and dangers you might encounter.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

1,119 comments on “The Utility of Beta Men – Part I

  1. j,

    Sounds like way too many moving parts. Simplest solution was right there- my wing actually winging. I was already in set, wasn’t going to get up and break it, try to establish rapport with another dude to get him over to talk to a fat chick. Sounds awfully impractical.

    I don’t understand ASD. Autism Spectrum Disorder? I didn’t think I’d hear back from the chick, but I gave it a shot. Why not?

    I don’t recall Goldmund bringing a chode in to run interference for him. Am I missing what you mean? Or is it just taking the girl to the bathroom that you mean?

  2. I’d much rather have someone fuck my girlfriend infront of me or a bathroom in the same building where I’d know about it….. than somewhere where i’m not around thinking its doing me a favor.


    Be Amoral in Your Assessments, Be Ethical In Your Actions

    The criticism of Robert Greene’s works is that they are sociopathic or unscrupulous. Of course, anyone who has ever met Robert knows that he is an incredibly kind, generous and principled person. Is that a contradiction? Absolutely not—in fact, it’s actually the underlying message of all his books. Robert teaches us how to look at the world objectively. When I see an unethical person, I don’t get upset. I just see who they are, I study what they are doing. Then when it’s my turn to make the right decision in my own life, I make it. Robert’s books are like a biology textbook. They explain what various species do. But as humans we’re free to make our own choices in our own lives—and we should choose well (as he has done).

  4. @Kid

    “Sounds awfully impractical”


    “I didn’t think I’d hear back from the chick, but I gave it a shot. Why not?”

    Dude you were tongue wrestling in the bar with no clear logistics. She already knows you want sex (aka no more sexual tension). No qualifying/investment from her…basically running the same game 99% of guys run at bars. She sounds like she was drunk (like the chick from Goldmund’s post) so she probably wouldn’t remember you (or if she did, would have flaked on you cause you triggered her Anti Slut defense). Fat chick would also have deleted your number from her phone cause she didn’t like you. All these factors against you man…that’s why i said no fucking chance.

  5. Hey Kid

    Where ever you are, just make sure that’s where you want to be.

    The Bar, Red Pill sites, Blue Pill Buffer bliss.

    If so, why not go all in on where you wanna be?

    Red pill is not a half way proposition.You seem in such a hurry to be held back.

    1. Where I want to be is where I am: RP aware, while still adhering to my own personal boundaries and standards of conduct. It works for me, I’m happy with it.

      Right now I’m in monk mode. Works for me right now, it’s where I need to be. When it’s time to change to a more extroverted mode, I’ll change.

  6. @KJ

    I was too involved with the girl, it happened very quickly. I didn’t want to disengage her and give the fatty friend solo access to her and then yank her from the venue.

    You needed to chat those guys up before you started gaming specific girls. Maybe you could have brought those two girls over to some private party in the bar so that fatty girl would have had some entertainment.

    Funny, weird thing happened in the bar Fri. night. It was the two-girl set where one of them approached me about helping some random guy learn to dance. One girl said that they were taken…one was married and the other had a bf. The other girl busted first girl on not being taken. Haven’t seen that much. Encouraging her to go for me. Kind of an anti-cockblocker. Weird. Maybe married girl had a thing for me, too. (I don’t do married girls.)

    I did kino on both girls. I think approach girl gave married girl a look that told her to stay away from me when I kino’d married girl. Both girls were very bangable, but approach girl (who was single) was hotter.

  7. @KJ

    My point for the story was about the importance of good wingmen.

    And our point was that you need to be able to roll with the punches. Who has the better plan? (This isn’t a dick measuring contest. It’s about learning Game.)

  8. ASD,

    Appreciate the input and advice, I really do. All of you.

    Way too complicated. You’re bringing in a bunch of different variables into a situation, all hypothetical, and it makes things more complex than necessary or desirable.

    Regarding simplicity being favorable to complexity, an analogy for me is sometimes I’ll go into a rehearsal studio or onto a stage with a backline and they’ll have a bass amplifier with a shitload of tone knobs and a parametric EQ (sliders). First this I do is turn off the parametric EQ completely and set all the tone knobs to 12 o clock. I get a good volume and I tweak my tone off the tone knobs. Nice and simple, and I always sound great – I simplify the process. The less knobs, the better. The less moving parts, the better.

    I understand where you’re coming from, but the simplest, most practical solution would’ve been if I’d turned around at the bar and told my cousin, “Get your ass up and join this conversation and keep the fat chick occupied.” I don’t know why I didn’t; probably, I was too caught up in the moment and too distracted by this hot PR girl.

    If someone told me this story, that’s what I would’ve asked. “Why didn’t you just turn around and tell your cousin to get up and help you?”

    Why would you even suggest I get up, try to convince a stranger to leave his group and come hang with me and talk to a fat chick while I make out with her hot friend? Does that really make any practical sense to you? It doesn’t to me. It’s impractical advice. I appreciate the advice, but it’s not realistic.

    Sometimes, wringing all you can from a situation is playing tonsil hockey with a hot PR chick you gamed at the bar right in front of her fat, cockblocking mother hen friend, and that’s an accomplishment because you did it solo in a two set because your wingman failed you. It’s a net win.

    Sometimes, you meet a black chick at the bar at a comedy club on Upper West Side NYC, she tells you how much she loves dick and needs cum inside her by any means, and you take her outside and she blows you and swallows in the walk-down porch area of a brownstone. This is also another NYC Slut story from my history – maybe around 2009.

    Sometimes the ball leaves the park, sometimes it’s caught on the warning track, All you can do is step to the plate and take a nice swing with good technique.

  9. Kid

    Your hypocrisy was established way back there… Several other commenters pointed that out to you.

    I just enjoy seeing a Manster get excercised… All the rationalization and difference without a distinction blustery moralizing types like you display.

    How do you unfuck a girl Kid?

    1. Where was my “hypocrisy” established, Sentient? Tell me, genius. Because you’re actually starting to piss me off now with your fucking bullshit.

      You really are quite dumb. You’re so dense that you can’t see nuance in anything. Everything is an either/or proposition.

      Here’s a hint: life is nuanced. It’s not a black or white proposition. Black and white are extreme ends of a spectrum. Everything exists in between. Nuance.

      Go read some classics. Read the Platonic dialogues. Read Aristotle’s Ethics. You obviously don’t have this background material under your belt, and it shows.

      It’s YOU with the Manster, not I. Go exercise it. Do some reading. And shut the fuck up.

  10. And what you are experiencing is the result of cognitive dissonance… Quite common for hypocrites to get frothy…

  11. And the next step after the frothing and appeals to the crowd and the ad hominems is to pick up your ball and leave because… You just can’t even…

  12. Kid

    “Right now I’m in monk mode.”

    Now you tell us???? You could have volunteered that information a couple or four days ago.

    1. SJF,

      Why? Is Monk Mode somehow important overall? In the past year or so, I’ve just pulled myself back from a lot of outside social activity, other than working and playing music. It’s the situation with my dad that’s forced me into this mindset – not really interested in bringing anyone’s presence or energy into my more inner concentric circles. And I’m re-evaluating life, thinking about things, as reflected here and as I’m being accused of being a ‘hypocrite’ for now.

      Normal stuff for a thinking man.


      You’re acting out. How about you go unfuck yourself?

  13. “Where was my “hypocrisy” established, Sentient . . .”

    . . . because ‘What difference, at this point, does it make?’

  14. @KJ

    Way too complicated. You’re bringing in a bunch of different variables into a situation, all hypothetical, and it makes things more complex than necessary or desirable.

    I have in field experience. Contrary to your assumptions, I don’t typically go out dancing with Mrs. Gamer. Every. Fucking. Week.

    You obviously don’t get out much, Mr. Keyboard Jockey.

    I think you’ve played us all.

    I understand where you’re coming from, but the simplest, most practical solution

    Not this. You need a robust skill set. Well done buffering your lack of a skill set, tho.

    1. ASD,

      You go out “dancing” with your wife. You’re not hooking up with or fucking any of these other chicks. All your “game” of them is in your own head. I haven’t really said anything about this, I brought it up in passing earlier, but that’s your shtick.

      I read your comments about how you did this or that with young lasses while dancing and I laugh over here! It’s actually funny. Talk about buffers! The guy’s married, isn’t banging any of these chicks, isn’t even kissing them, but he’s “gaming” them, nonetheless. Please….

      And you’re going to give me advice on picking up chicks?

      I’ve gotten out plenty in my life, Gramps. Your “advice” was ludicrous and impractical. You don’t know what you’re talking about.


      Did you read the books I recommended yet? Get to it, what are you waiting for? Don’t just stick in the tip, get into it. You have a lot to learn.


      No hypocrisy here. I explained my reasoning when asked.

      I’ll say it again – great blog, but most of you guys commenting regularly are truly nut jobs.

  15. kfg – LOL…

    Civilized Rule Followers ™ love those distinctions without a difference, allows continued moralizing of Teh Heathen while they let their Id go unchecked in the name of “but this is different”… The Bible Kid, is full of stories about these kind of people, always throwing stones…

    Just the tip?

  16. This has been a thought provoking post and the comments have been fiery – ranging from downright ridiculous bullying and stone throwing in a kindergarten to some of the most profound wisdom to be found anywhere in the Manosphere.

    To Blaximus, Sentient, kfg, Morpheus and any other commenters I may have insulted, I apologize for it.

    I thank all the commenters for not going easy on each other, or getting frustrated and giving up on the debate. I don’t know how you all do it. On one hand you all claim you have no responsibility to other men, and here you are helping even the one’s with opposing views, the methods may be harsh but that is what is needed. Your effort and patience is much appreciated, gentlemen.

    Special thanks to Kid Junior for taking on the others and pushing the boundaries of the discussion into all directions possible.

    I found answers to questions I wasn’t even asking.

  17. @ Kid

    ” ASD,

    You go out “dancing” with your wife. You’re not hooking up with or fucking any of these other chicks. All your “game” of them is in your own head. I haven’t really said anything about this, I brought it up in passing earlier, but that’s your shtick.”

    Lol. Okay I have to jump in here, as I too engage quite frequently ( read: Damn near daily ) in what YaReally explained to me was ” Catch and Release “.

    Look at it as practice and confirmation, imo.

    I know my game works on the wife, but can I still game the average chick out in public? How will I know unless I do so?

    I know if I can fuck a chick the exact same way that I’ve known during 43 years of fucking chicks, lol.

    Confirmation: After my divorce I managed to bang almost every woman in the office where I worked. And it happened with lightening speed. The reason that it happened the way that it did, was that for the 7 years that I’d worked there, I’d gamed the ever loving shit out of every female in the office. Luckily, I didn’t experience the ” What do I do now ” regarding women and sex after my marriage ended. And I’m confident right now that if my current marriage exploded tonight, I won’t have any problems getting sexually satisfied with desire sex from a female. That shit stays handled.

    Most of game is indeed in your own head, I agree with you on that. It’s the same for mostly anything a man does – it begins with a thought and ends in action.

    I almost never walk out of my house without running some level of game on some random chick. It’s fairly unconscious. Like putting one foot in front of the other.

  18. Blax,

    Good comment. You’re one of the guys here who I really like, because you’ve disagreed with me on some things and pointed things out to me without being a fucking asshole and triggering my Sicilian Kid From Jersey attitude.

    I’ve observed what you brought up re swimming in pussy after you get divorced – not first-hand, of course, because I’ve never been married, let alone divorced. But with friends. For example, drummer in one of the groups I play in is in the beginning stages of his divorce and he’s got a woman he works with sending him pics of her twat and of videos of her playing with herself. We played a gig in the city and the chick singer in the band after us was all over him, getting in his way, etc. She was no beauty, but it’s just an illustrative point. I guess it changes your vibe or something if you’re handling the suck of the divorce standing up, rather than slouching down.

    So, you, Blaximus, have objective, pragmatic, empirical evidence of your ability to score chicks after your divorce, because you’ve done it.

    Does ASD?

    The only real test of whether all the “game” he plays in his head will actually translate into physical reality is if he’s removed from the buffer of his marriage.

    I’ve been told here that I have “buffers” because I drew a line on how far I would go, what I would & wouldn’t be willing to do, in specific situations. (Also been called a ‘hypocrite’ for this).

    But, there’s ASD’s buffer: he’s still married.

    I’ve observed that chicks will flirt with married men because it’s “safer.” They don’t necessarily intend on following through with anything real. And they’ll recoil if the man tries to make it real.

    Could he pull the girl if it was “for real,” not a drill?

    If or when he figures that out, for real, then he’ll be in a position to give out advice on gaming & picking up girls, for real.

    Until then, no.

  19. Kid

    Distinctions without a difference… [PS – you are in Stage 3, ad hominem attacks]

    1) I wasn’t at a dinner party with the BF
    [right, you weren’t invited to speak to the girls either, but you didn’t have any problem intruding on their party]

    2) He wasn’t there and I wasn’t doing it right in front of him

    [The CB told her friend and you about “Her Boyfriend”, just like Goldmund’s friend told him about the Aussie liking the girl. And he was on the phone calling her, right there in real time, because they were going to his place and you knew it and tried to fuck her anyway]

    3) I wasn’t offending the host who invited me

    [because you weren’t invited, in fact the CB wanted you to go away and YOU neglected your duty as a host to your cousin, who didn’t want to chat with a fat girl. But you wanted him to take one for “the team”. For your benefit solely. You weren’t a great teammate to him, no Mickey Mantle… lol. and he freshly divorced…]

    4) I wouldn’t have fucked her in the bathroom

    [Well you would have if it wasn’t a public bathroom, per your comments, because public bathrooms you find icky… but you didn’t have the skill to execute.]

    So tell us Kid, what is the difference between you and Goldmund?

    You both had a girls who you knew had a guy seriously into her and the girl was willing to get fucked anyway, Goldmund threw the Aussie under the bus, you tried to throw Phone BF under the bus, Goldmund was [arguably] a dick to his host, you were inarguably a dick to your cousin… so the difference without a distinction is the Aussie was present in flesh and blood and Phone BF wasn’t. So I guess that makes you a coward as well as a hypocrite, given your numerous – and humourous – allusions to violence. And the difference between wanting to fuck a girl [but failing] and fucking her is what?

    1. Sentient,

      When was the last time you solo approached a two-set in a bar and had the hot chick stick her tongue down your throat within 10 minutes, all while trying to appease the fat friend who was was trying to blow up the set?

      Right, never. OK. So, what position are you in to tell me that I didn’t have the “skill to execute?”

      How many opportunities have you had to “execute” as a guy in his mid-40s who had kids in his 20s? How many kids again? 4? You jumped right into the marriage and kids game. You know nothing about pick up game.

      When I have a question about married man game or raising kids game, I’ll ask you; it’s in those areas where you have experiential, pragmatic knowledge.

      Don’t yap like an expert about things outside your area of knowledge.

      The rest of your comment isn’t even worth addressing because it’s a pathetic stretch of reasoning.

    1. C’mon, now Blax – don’t be putting defending your buddies who you’ve known longer than me ahead of the truth.

  20. Kid J doesn’t think he is a hypocrite becuase he uses an extra layer of discretion and passive aggressiveness to bang chicks then G…. what ever his name is

    Which seems pretty fucking weak. I failed out of high school and can see there is no moral differences but like I said before, it takes college to become that fucking culess

    1. The real bottom line is G wouldn’t have banged the chick if Aussie or the friend put a fist into his face. Annnnnnddddd… it’s back to violence, the alpha and omega of boundary enforcement. I don’t condone it, but that’s what it takes to draw the line for some guys.

      Unfortunately, as I’ve said over and over, some people need boundaries enforced on them if they’re not capable of enforcing their own.

      Ton, you’re fucking clueless yourself. The only place a guy like you could possibly live is like you do, isolated from society-at-large because you display a complete lack of social skills. You’re like a vicious dog that has to be kept in a pen by itself. What is that dog worth? Not much. It usually gets put down before it can cause any more damage.

  21. @Kid

    Dude who gives a fuck about that. That’s sloppy game. Period. I make out with girls under 30 seconds pretty much every weekend I don’t give a shit. I’m focused on my goal (fucking a girl i’m attracted to). Theasdgamer and I (who go out every weekend) gave you the game plan (befriend the people at the bar first, then hit on girls. try to befriend the cockblock, if that doesn’t work, wave over your cousin to come in set, if that didn’t work, introduce cockblock to one of the guys you talked to early (who would be thrilled to be talking to a girl because his plans for the night were gonna be drink tons beer and look around at everyone else, then leave go home and jerk off) that would have helped you get isolation with PR girl. That’s not fucking complicated/impractical.

    1. j,

      Were you there? Did you see all these hypothetical guys around who you keep referring to? I remember the bar as being pretty empty, actually.

      Here’s the spot where this happened:

      Of course, more crowded in these picks than it was that day.

      Look, I’m tired of this whole thread now. It’s winding down. I’m moving on.

  22. ” You’re like a vicious dog that has to be kept in a pen by itself. ”

    Holy Shit!!!! I have been called this exact same thing , on more than one occasion, by different people.

    The best was right after a killer sex session.

    I didn’t realize it was an insult… lol.

  23. There were two basic differences:

    1. Face-ade. Not what it was, but how it looked.
    2. I . . . I . . . I . . . ME! . . . I . . .

    ” . . . G wouldn’t have banged the chick if Aussie or the friend put a fist into his face.”

    Which is how it would have gone down, because God was on his side. The nominative good guy wins because that is Just and the nominative bad guy never pulls an Indy and leaves the good guy gut shot while he walks off with the girl.

    Just how many Toontown axioms are you operating from anyway?

    “… it’s back to violence, the alpha and omega of boundary enforcement.”

    And if it didn’t happen, then it wasn’t a boundary in force.

    Reality, it’s the shit that happens even if you don’t want it to.

    1. kfg,

      It happened to me several years ago, for just talking to a girl at a party. Girl was flirty and receptive to me, I chatted her up, nothing even escalated beyond talking, dude comes along and attacks me. They weren’t even really together, from what I heard afterwards; he was just “courting” her – same status as Aussie.

      When I was in high school, maybe 15-16, I was talking to a girl I was friendly with outside her house. Her boyfriend, who was a few years older and had a car, suddenly pulled up, got out of the car, and came after me.

      Right or wrong, justified or not, regardless of their status, frame, or anything else this shit happens. (Granted, I’m from Jersey, but…)

      Guess what? I stopped talking to the girls. Boundary enforced, primate style.

      Not saying it’s right, but it’s effective, on an amoral “whatever works” level. Just like game, RP, all the shit you talk about here. Amorality. “Whatever Works.”

  24. @Incubus Rising:

    Words were spoken, but if they caused me any offense it was so minor I’d have to go back in the thread to figure out what it was.

    So fuhgeddaboudit.

  25. ” . . . shit happens.”

    All the time. Shit happened to Aussie guy too, but you see shit through polarized lenses.

    “I’m from Jersey”

    I know. That one I got from your language, but we’re probably at about my limit of precision now.

  26. Awwwww I hurt it’s wittle feelings

    So basically your a pussy who backs off when challenged by other men yet advocates other men challenging dudes over hatchet wounds….. man your head is twisted.

  27. kfg,

    “…shit happens.”

    Please don’t misquote me. Use the entire quote, in it’s context. Here it is, it was written by me in the context of describing guys using violence on other guys to set a boundary around “their” women:

    “Right or wrong, justified or not, regardless of their status, frame, or anything else this shit happens. (Granted, I’m from Jersey, but…)”

    Do you ever stop? Just asking, because once I figure out how to stop receiving notifications of comments for this thread, I’m turning it off so I stop receiving emails.


    Are you seriously accusing me of being a “pussy” because I’m “backing off when challenged by other men?”

    Doesn’t take a college education to see that I’ve gone toe to toe by myself with at least 7 of you for 5 days. You can’t accuse me of backing off from you guys in any way.

    I NEVER advocated the use of violence. I just said it’s effective, whether one thinks it’s right or wrong. On an amoral level, it works.

    You are wrong in your accusation of me.

    There comes a time when the war ends, soldier. Don’t be like those Japanese soldiers who were still fighting WWII when they found them in the jungle 20 years later. This has become a waste of time for me – I have other shit to do, and it’s gotten old.

  28. You are a fucking pussy. Toe to toe on the interwebz proves your manhood? You’re a fucking joke and a pussy who has pretty much done nothing else lately but advocate violence when more violent men made you haul ass with your tail between your leg

    You are a fucking pussy. You are such a pussy your balls are made of pussy

  29. “Right or wrong, justified or not, regardless of their status, frame, or anything else this shit happens. (Granted, I’m from Jersey, but…)”

    And, right or wrong, justified or not, the shit that happened to Aussie guy happens, but you see shit through polarized lenses.

  30. “You are a fucking pussy. You are such a pussy your balls are made of pussy..

    Oh man, I am definitely stealing this one.

  31. “I just said it’s effective, whether one thinks it’s right or wrong. On an amoral level, it works.”

    More polarized vision. On an amoral level, whether one thinks it’s right or wrong, what Goldmund did works. Aussie guy asked for it, and he got it. If Aussie guy wanted to start a physical altercation, Goldmund could have put a fist in his face. Goldmund’s boundaries enforced primate style. In full with context just up there ^

    ” . . . dude comes along and attacks me . . . Guess what? I stopped talking to the girls.”

    Ahhhhhhhh, I see.

  32. Kid

    When was the last time you solo approached a two-set in a bar and had the hot chick stick her tongue down your throat within 10 minutes, all while trying to appease the fat friend who was was trying to blow up the set?

    Right, never. OK. So, what position are you in to tell me that I didn’t have the “skill to execute?”

    Says someone who’s a long time reader of the site. I must LOL at you, kid. Truly this made me laugh out loud in a coffee joint full of earnest hipsters and cube farm inmates.

    This may look to you like WWE where you square off against 5 or 7 opponents. But really it’s more like a blanket party and you’ve made yourself the guest of honor.

  33. Kid “I NEVER advocated the use of violence” Jupiter

    A partial chronicling…

    SJF, Goldmund can do what he did because he’s a psychopath and isn’t able to set personal boundaries. Thus, he needs boundaries set for him.

    A few teeth knocked out might suffice to get him setting his own boundaries in future social settings.

    no other male forcibly enforced a boundary onto him, which would be the only way to keep a guy like him under control.

    Hmmm, I wonder if Goldmund would’ve had such chutzpah if it were a mean-looking Russian, instead of a nancyboy Aussie? If he felt the immediate threat of physical harm?

    People do not behave like that in a civil society. There should’ve been consequences, for both of them, as I’ve said.

    I’d like to see if/how G would’ve ‘rubbed it in’ if Aussie guy was a big, mean machine and made it clear he would splat G…

    (I also said psychopathic behavior also needs an external check).

    Sometimes the law and ‘bouncers’ won’t be there to protect you, snowflake. Then what are you going to do? How are you going to act?

    Kid… don’t keep showing your ass if you don’t want it kicked…

  34. Lot of weasel words up there. Might, would, wonder, etc. It’s all passive-aggressiveness, but technically just hypothesizing.

    That’s why I asked him if their ought to have been an intervention and he responded that yes, there should have been.

  35. That line isn’t a Ton Original.

    One of the upsides to a life time of military service, high risk contractor work and hanging out in biker bars is you hear a lot of funny shit but in this case I got that line from binge watching Archer while recovering from fucking up my ankle last year when that truck full of drunken diversity from South of Texas culturally enriched me and my motorcycle

    Yay immigration

  36. @KJ

    The only real test of whether all the “game” he plays in his head will actually translate into physical reality is if he’s removed from the buffer of his marriage.

    Marriage isn’t a buffer; it’s a constraint. Get your facts straight.

    If I have any “buffer” it’s autism. Autistic men are extremely unlikely to break their marriage vows. It’s one of the diagnostic tests for autism. But it can happen. I do what I can within my constraints.

    I’m not saying what I’ve done in social media. Too easy for that shit to end up in divorce court.

    I have pulled girls to a new venue for an “insta-date”. I’m not saying I banged them, but they followed me. Girls have wanted to follow me (create an insta-date) and I turned them down. Girls have tried to get me to ask them out and they’ve also asked me out. Girls have tried to get me to bang them in my truck. 80% of the girls I invite to my truck will go. The other 20% chase me hard.

    I’ve observed that chicks will flirt with married men because it’s “safer.”

    This shows that you’re just a keyboard jockey, KJ. Single chicks typically avoid married men if they know they’re married and the girl is aroused and might get busted. Married chicks seek out married men for hookups. Liz can clue you in about what she’s seen and heard.

    I’ve cold approached a girl in the middle of the afternoon when we were both stone cold sober and been in her apt. in 30 minutes, back before marriage.

    I’ve probably turned more girls down for sex than you’ve had sex with.

    You don’t understand that when a man has a strong internal frame, he gets lots of low-hanging fruit. That shit can return if a man shakes off his beta-ness.

    Girls have chased me for years. I can calibrate a girl’s interest very accurately.

    Gaming Mrs. Gamer is exactly the same as gaming single women. The burden of performance. I’ve gamed both. Once you’ve been married you can talk about how gaming single women is a whole nother animal than gaming your wife. Oh, wait, Blax has explained how the exact same principles apply because a girl’s sexual wiring doesn’t change just because she gets married. You really don’t know shit from Shinola. Even if you’re Sicilian and come from Jersey.

    “You’re such a pussy, your balls secrete vaginal fluid.”

    thassa joke, son, ah say, ah say, thassa joke

  37. @KJ

    Here’s another clue for ya…I haven’t worn a wedding ring in decades…let that sink in…girls new to a bar probably won’t know if I’m married…maybe I’m just pretending because I’m a lonely old man. But if they think that I AM married, then there’s preselection.

    And I have some social status at the bar because I dance well and have taught over a thousand girls how to dance. Probably status akin to that of a rock star of a local band.

  38. @KJ

    Here’s a pro tip…just because you’ve fucked several girls doesn’t mean that you understand women’s arousal or Game. Lots of naturals have no clue about Game and are Blue Pill about women.

  39. @ Kid Jupiter
    You are correct that you should take vengeance out on the woman and man if you as a man can if she or he has wronged you. It is not always possible to take vengeance out on her or him for whatever reasons there may be, but as soon as able you should do so which may or may not be never. I personally am not sure I would take vengeance out on Goldmund if I could if I were in Aussie man’s shoes, but I would take it out on Aussie woman. I could see how a man such as yourself would want to take vengeance out on Goldmund though even if I disagreed with it, and I am not saying whether I would agree or disagree as I do not know anything about the story other than what Goldmund said, However, the Aussie man should definitely take vengeance out on the Aussie woman if he can just to let her know what she did is unacceptable. After Aussie man took vengeance out on her and possibly him, then he should learn GAME. You are correct that because we as a society have let our women be protected from their consequences that it will in the end destroy civilized behavior and then violence will be more widespread. Right now women are allowed to do a lot more of what they want while men are constrained, but sooner or later that will change and men will be unrestrained, then more violence breaks out, and the present day conditions of this will not hold and be the same forever. I agree that civilized behavior is better than uncivilized behavior, but as SFC Ton alluded, we are heading for more uncivilized times.

    As a former enlisted man in the Army and a veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan, never think that officers don’t have the same animalistic behavior of the enlisted man. The only difference is that they know better of how and when to hide it because they have been taught whereas the enlisted man often has not and is not expected to do so as much, and they must do so otherwise it will have more dire consequences than if an enlisted man does the same thing. An example is that officers are not allowed to be publicly drunk off duty and out of uniform, but the enlisted military can be. SFC Ton is right that he had to train O1 and O2 Second and First Lieutenants how to be soldiers when they arrived in his platoon in on the job training after they arrived from the military academies such as West Point etc, or OCS or ROTC. The same thing happened in the Navy with your father where an E-7 upper level Non Commisioned officer did exactly what SFC Ton did. SFC Ton is right that one must be a man before one is a Gentleman, or that one must be a man before one is an officer and a gentleman.

  40. @ Kid Jupiter
    I also agree that it was uncivilized behavior that the Aussie woman and Goldmund having sex in a public bathroom. I think it is illegal and am surprised you mentioned nothing about this as a lawyer even if this kind of law is not your expertise. I served both in Iraq and Afghanistan as an enlisted Soldier for the U.S. Army.

  41. Is it ” uncivilized ” behavior for the pair to have sex in the bathroom for real?


    I must have a much different definition of civilization.

    Illegal? Hmmm… I don’t know. In my city there’s a law on the books about spitting in public. For a brief moment today while coming to work, my speedometer read 125. I’ve banged both wives on hoods of various automobiles in ” public spaces “.

    I make it my business to stay out of jail or prison, but I can’t imagine life while being overly concerned with ” Laws and Rules “. Civilization itself was formed on some very uncivilized behaviors after all.

    Let’s see…. homicide or bathroom sex ? Which is more likely to fuck up civilization?

  42. Doclove giving Kid Jupiter Blue Pill AFC support in suggesting revenge-fulness. Rollo covered that:

    “There’s not a lot of money in revenge” – Inigo Montoya

    It’s part of the human condition to desire what we think is justice. It’s our nature to make comparisons, and in the instance of inequality, to see them corrected. And although we rarely consider the ultimate consequences of our actions, this isn’t the reason we should temper a desire for revenge. The thing we ought to consider is the overall efforts and resources necessary in order to exact revenge and weigh them against the things we might achieve for our own betterment by redirecting them to our own purposes. Even the efforts required for a slight revenge are better spent with concerns of our own.

    This might seem like a long-winded way of saying “Living well is the best revenge”, and to a degree I think that’s true, but beware the ‘Well-lived’ life spent in pursuit of revenge. Revenge should never be your motivation for success. Even the time and mental effort needed to consider some appropriate way of making a woman aware of how she made you feel are resources better spent on meeting new prospective women who will reciprocate your interest. The root of confidence is developing, recognizing and acknowledging as many personal options as possible. Any effort you’d expend on revenge is a wasted opportunity to better yourself. Indifference to detractors and personal success are a far better revenge than any one sided injury you could inflict on them in return.

  43. @ SJF

    I’ve learned that revenge is a waste of time. Either you’re gonna do something right then and there, or you’re going to let it go – and I mean Let It Go.

    In the case of the Goldmund/Aussie thing, there’s billions of women on the planet. I could maybe see if there were only 5, and Goldmund pilfered one, but that’s not the case.

  44. “I’ve learned that revenge is a waste of time.

    … but I’m a HUGE fan of retaliation.”</blockquote

    One would be fucked by cognitive dissonance if he didn't realize the differences between inner desire. inner intention, and outer intention. Nor if he could hook up his soul's desire with his cognitive brain to allow him to have outer intention. And to act.

    …realization is brought about not by desire but by one’s attitude to that which is desired. It is not a person’s thoughts about the object of their desire that is significant but something else difficult to describe in words. There is a certain force that has the last word and yet it lingers in the wings whilst the thinking game takes centre stage. You will of course have guessed that this force is intention. The rational mind has not yet found a comprehensive definition for intention among the shelves of its chosen designations. Here we will roughly define intention as resoluteness in the decision to have and act.

    Now you can see that thoughts of themselves really do not mean anything in the process of attuning to a specific sector in the alternatives space. Thoughts are just foam on the crest of the wave of intention. It is not desire that is fulfilled so much as intention….

    …..Desire of itself leads to nothing. On the contrary, the more intensely you desire something the more active the backlash of balanced forces. Desire focuses on the goal whereas intention focuses on the process of achieving the goal. Desire is realized via the creation of excess potential in relation to the goal. Intention is realized via action. Intention does not intellectualize about whether the goal is achievable or not. Once the decision is made all you have to do is act.

    .—Vadim Zeland in Transurfing Reality

  45. @Everyone: I’ve been spending more time in the FR comments section and avoiding much of the Jupiter discussion, but am I glad I popped in to read “balls are made of pussy” comment.

    That is brilliant on so many levels.

    @SFC Ton: did you know that the scrotum is kind of like the labia fused together?

  46. I could maybe see if there were only 5, and Goldmund pilfered one, but that’s not the case.

    What the beta mind doesnt realise is that if a cucking girl could be stupid enough to overtly explain her predicament to the cucked beta, it would be something like,
    “It is your fault! It is youn you do not make me hot for you! Make me hot for you. I am made like this. You also know I need to eat, my kids need to eat but I have no money. You have the money. What can I do? And yet you disgust me so….”


  47. “Hehehe”

    To summarize your argument…all alphas are psychopaths and anyone who isn’t a psychopath is laughable and disgusting.

  48. Must be why I see so many uber hotties lined up on international flights wearing “Congo or bust!” tee shirts.

  49. Not to say there aren’t any folks (the planet is a large place) who would go to the Congo (a place with a lot of psychopathy, civil wars with conscripted child soldiers over the course of decades will do that) for a lay. And some folks also buy underwear at flea markets.

  50. @Cheupez:

    Psychopaths destroy social order, because they hold it in contempt.

    Alphas Leaders of Men generate social order, because they desire it.

  51. What women prefer is not for the best of society. Hypergamy gives no fuck for our vested interests in order. That feminism makes conventions whose consequences are very harmful to women is not a secret. But they dont care. Tear a woman’s pussy to shreds, and sooner enough she will show up willingly for another go at it.

  52. “What women prefer is not for the best of society.”

    Correct. But that does not imply that what they prefer is for the worst of society. They are looking for certain traits and behaviours. Psychopaths have them, but not all men who have them are psychopaths.

    All men are mammals. Not all mammals are men.

  53. @cheupez

    What women prefer is not for the best of society. Hypergamy gives no fuck for our vested interests in order.

    Just because women don’t care what’s best for society doesn’t mean that their interests can’t coincide with what’s best for society. Women find high status leaders of men sexually arousing along with dark triad men. Women used to be shamed for giving sexual attention to dark triad men, but the occurrence of that shaming has been greatly reduced.

    Not all alphas are dark triad men. Not all alphas are leaders of men. But almost all alphas are in one of those two groups.

  54. I’ve been listening to the back and forth between Kid Jupiter Vs. Sentient, ASDgamer et al. I think you are all missing some points:

    Point One:

    A man who invests in a woman is setting himself up for hurt and disappointment.

    So, Super Beta Aussie paid for the ticket or to generalize all of us men have put forth resources in an effort to fuck a woman, or worse, to form a lasting love relationship with our oneitis. It most often does not work out, and usually the more you spend the less it works out.

    Blaximus made a comment about taking a chick to the Caribbean, but taking the precaution of fucking her first. OK, some risk mitigation, but no guarantee. She could decide not to fuck you or she could decide to fuck a local. I’m told the red pill way, no experience myself, is to go solo as there are already women there that you do not need to transport.

    Then, Blaximus made the comment that a sexually satisfied woman doesn’t cheat. OK, that’s pure bullshit. Women do what they want based on their feelings. I expect this kind of remark from young inexperienced guys who still believe that you can fuck a woman into submission. I remember some guy touting sex god method or some such program.

    Blaximus made another very honest comment. He said he wasn’t bothered by men attempting to approach his first wife. He is on wife #2 now. So, he divorced wife #1, and as I recall he shared that it was most painful. Again, this is not a crack on him–not in the least. He invested in a woman, marriage and all, and was rewarded by being hurt and disappointed.

    Point Two:

    This isn’t a steel cage match of Goldmund Vs. Super Beta Aussie

    What if the mastermind in this situation is Aussie Chick? There are very few ways for her to lose in this scenario, unless Super Beta Aussie went murder suicide. She has her ticket. After she has been informed in no uncertain terms that SBA loves her, what’s her out? Fuck Goldmund! Now, this is even better if she has another Other Beta Aussie at home. She can now return to him and say that no, she didn’t fuck SBA. He’s just a friend. All the while keeping to herself that she fucked Goldmund in the bathroom—what a classy chick! I think Rollo covered this in an essay called Please Break Up With Me.

    We men have a tendency to see women as the object and not having agency, but I think our experience shows us that Goldmund was out of luck if she either mate guarded herself or turned down his advances.

    Point Three:

    You can’t control the woman. To a certain degree, you cannot control how you feel about the woman.

    SJF said that his wife has kept up her end of the bargain and if his marriage ended tomorrow, it would have been a good ride. I believe that he believes what he is saying. I don’t know how this works out in practice if a relationship ends in the real world.

    Point Four:

    SJF also said that he realizes that his wife is not a unicorn. It’s hard to comprehend that our trusted wives, like Wife Tomassi, Wife Blaximus, Wife SJF and yes, Wife If-I-Fell, probably have entertained thoughts of fucking someone else, leaving, divorcing, murdering, or whatever. They may have even mapped out some basic logistics. I have a theory that a “good” wife has both a higher IQ and more inclination to use it when making these calculations. More precisely, making the calculations not to do these things.

    Point Five:

    You can’t invest without risk. You can’t have more than a PUA, plate-spinning lifestyle unless you do invest. That is unless you believe that you can manage some non-family scheme for managing multiple women and raising children.

    Point Six:

    “Having” the woman limits your maneuverability.

    Momentary Alphaness:

    To illustrate how having the woman limits your maneuverability. I went accross country to see my old oneitis. When I got there, there were no fucks given, literally. I was hurt and angry. Anyway, on my next stop I met up with an old high school buddy at his college. I pulled the George Costanza. Arriving at a party, without hesitation, I walked up to the prettiest girl, a blue-eyed blond. I made solid eye contact, told her she was beautiful, grabbed her around the waist and bent her back for a full-tongue long slow kiss. I brought her back to the upright position, released her and told her I had been overcome by her beauty. Then, I met her boyfriend, who had been standing next to her. I made some half-hearted sorry dude comment. Anyway, she made eyes at me for the rest of the night. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the logistics or the balls to take it further. However, it made me a legend at my friend’s school, and many of his friends told me I had done in two minutes what they had been too timid to attempt in 2 years. I also heard from my friend that the couple split up a short time later. Apparently, she felt he was kind of a wimp, especially since he didn’t do anything about me kissing her.

    Disclaimer: If I appear to be a bit tense or harsh, I am interviewing for a position that, if it’s a good deal, if I can nail the interview and if I can obtain a good offer, I could extricate myself from the no-win situation in which I currently find myself. It’s a lot of if’s, I know, hence the tension, and the need to momentarily exercise my brain on another task.

  55. If I have understood Rollo well, I think “high status leaders” have qualities that women find attractive. I am not too sure those qualities necessarily make those men sexually arousing to women. I think those are comfort/security/provision related qualities which though they may appeal to the rational aspect of a womans thinking, they are likely to send the woman’s lizard brain to sleep.

    I have previously experienced this with women before I read Rollo but had no idea what was happening. Then after reading Rollo, I actively tried to test this on women I know. I switch on selfish SOB, I get a really passionate crazy woman. I give comfort, I get a pleasant “service” fuck.

    By the way. I support order. I am not a psychopath. But I can switch it on. Never been a convict (though I have done stuff that is definitely criminal but I did it with very careful discretion). My profession/career/line of work requires one to be an “upstanding citizen”.

    I also should say that I believe I have very beta qualities, being married and all. I am one who believes that all of us in here are betas of sorts. We are more of dads than we are cads. I agree with what Scrib was saying about once being born beta, never becoming alpha. I hope no one takes offence. It is just my opinion.

  56. Hypothetical scenario:
    You’re in a position of responsibility and a report that falls under your area of responsibility comes to your desk.
    Young woman (early 20s) tested positive for cocaine. Back story is, she went to a strip club, and after a while went into the back of the club, came out with some cocaine and took a hit in the corner of the club. Her ex, who is incarcerated in the pokey confirmed that “yes, she used to use ecstasy and cocaine from time to time”. She is not available for questioning because she is at a facility for “mental evaluation”.

    Is there some little part of you that might be just a little intrigued?
    Clearly she’s a mess, but what if she’s hot?
    Men do these cost to gains calculations too.
    A crazy hot bitch is going to probably arose a guy, temporarily, a bit more than standard Sally (who would never go into a strip club let alone know of figure out you could get coke in the back room) even if they look exactly the same.
    Dopamine is a power chemical, and highly addictive.
    Which sex is more risk adverse and which sex is less?

  57. Nah. This ‘take what you want’ logic is the same type of bullshit justification as robbing someone’s house and blaming them because they left a window unlocked. You think it is alpha to fuck your friend’s girlfriend? I disagree. If you are really alpha you have enough options to be able to pass by your friend’s girl. There are tons of available single women. You can’t get one? Then your rotation is shit, you fucking beta. Also – what about actually having standards for the women you date, and to insist that they maintain them or… no dick for them…? What a concept eh? If you are truly alpha then you can set the bar wherever you want, so why set it lower than a snake’s belly in a cart rut?

  58. @cheupez

    I think “high status leaders” have qualities that women find attractive. I am not too sure those qualities necessarily make those men sexually arousing to women.

    high status leaders…Bill Clinton, Henry Kissinger, Gregory Peck, Wilt the Stilt, various high profile rock bands…all laid like tile…no provisioning


    I heard from someone in a position to know that subordinates were bringing Bill Clinton an average of three women per day.

  59. @LEX: I kicked off an argument with Blaximus in the beginning of this thread on the same point. After a lot of “you’re a pussy”, “no you’re a pussy beggar” and reading 1,000+ comments on this thread, I can see why some find it repulsive and some are OK with it. In a way, I am glad I did not get a direct answer, it got me intrigued and after of lot thinking and comparing the comments from the opposing sides to this argument on this thread, it has made me realize that just being “Red Pill aware” and “GAME” does not free a man from the Matrix. The rabbits hole goes way deeper than we can imagine.

  60. @YC: “What’s your opinion of why psychopaths have contempt for social order?”

    I believe it is an essentially genetic trait, that although it appears destructive in most circumstances, in certain cases having a few around enhances survival at the tribal level.

    Like when the goblins come over the hill intent on killing you and taking your stuff.

    The necessity of being able to survive the very extremes of environment is often overlooked. The extreme is not just dangerous, it will wipe you out utterly if you aren’t prepared to handle it. The trick is to play the game of “Yeah, he’s a psychopath, but he’s our psychopath.” To manage him when times are peaceful, but be able to aim him at your enemies when they aren’t.

    @If-I-Fell: “What if the mastermind in this situation is Aussie Chick?”

    I take that essentially as a given. I have even projected her own internal dialogue about “managing” the situation.

    “Now, this is even better if she has another Other Beta Aussie at home.”

    I assume she a number of orbiters.

  61. @all

    Lots of you all think that AussieBozo had some rights because he paid for chick’s plane ticket. The right to keep other guys away from some chick you aren’t banging. Pure Blue Pill bullshit. That was never the case under patriarchy. It isn’t the case today. It’s the FI gaslighting your ass so that you all will give chicks free stuff and they can fuck whomever they please and you will live in a fantasyland where you imagine that you have some claim on a chick you’re not even banging. Of course, if you’re banging a chick under patriarchy, you have rights to exclusivity.


    I have a theory that a “good” wife has both a higher IQ and more inclination to use it when making these calculations.

    It’s about a woman being trained and following the training to limit her options–not IQ or any other shit. You younger guys don’t know of a world where most women were trained because it isn’t being done much any more. I used to watch “Last Man Standing” until I saw an episode where Mike Baxter caved on his daughters having sex under his roof. No more. Like Sentient, I think that you still have some training of young women in the UMC. Not universal in the UMC, by any means, but significant.

  62. ” I kicked off an argument with Blaximus in the beginning of this thread on the same point. After a lot of “you’re a pussy”, “no you’re a pussy beggar” and reading 1,000+ comments on this thread, I can see why some find it repulsive and some are OK with it. In a way, I am glad I did not get a direct answer, it got me intrigued and after of lot thinking and comparing the comments from the opposing sides to this argument on this thread, it has made me realize that just being “Red Pill aware” and “GAME” does not free a man from the Matrix. The rabbits hole goes way deeper than we can imagine.”

    The rabbit hole goes deep because the essence of yin/yang in human society is trust. We are independent social animals. Social norms are a way of saying, “See, I’m part of the group” and violating social norms is a way of signaling you are an outsider to that tribe/group.

  63. @LEX

    You’re confusing “ought” and “is”. Don’t try to shoehorn ethics in. Plenty of alphas don’t follow your ethics , tho some may.


    trying again with trust? lol

  64. For example:
    When you get onto that freeway, in your 1.5-2.5 ton cage of glass and steel, you are trusting that the other hundreds, even thousands of drivers in their steel cages hurtling along at speeds that would have been incomprehensible to our Founders, you are trusting that they, for whatever reasons unknown to you, are going to behave in X fashion, and not Y.
    Nobody is driving (“working”) collectively on the freeway towards a common goal.
    Similar goals, sure. Shared “rules of the road”, yes.
    But each is going to their own destination for their own reasons, not the collectives.

    The freeway is (IMO) a pretty apt illustration of the yin/yang of human society.
    It doesn’t work when “individualism” runs rampant.
    Conversely, nobody can use it when “collectivism” is the only game in town, because now ya gotta ride the bus, not drive the freeway. Public transportation, which only goes where the collective decides it goes, when the collective decides, at the collective’s pace.

  65. And those rules change depending on where you are. Kuwaitis drive differently from Italians who drive differently from Koreans who drive differently from Americans (who vary depending on the city and/or state one is in). Social norms prevail and establish what it correct, and where it is correct. Which, again, is why there are differences of interpretation for what is correct social convention.

  66. @anon

    Social norms are a way of saying, “See, I’m part of the group” and violating social norms is a way of signaling you are an outsider to that tribe/group.

    men are being gaslighted about norms…there are no norms…women don’t abide by norms…alphas don’t either…only betas…trust a woman to not abide by norms, lol…trust a woman to gaslight about norms

  67. I’m not confusing laws with social behavior.
    Laws are force. I think they are necessary. There must be enough force to supress the violation of the laws. But there can never be enough of such force if the vast majority of a society doesn’t share and independently adhere to certain values about right conduct.

    No amount of force is sufficient to suppress all predatory violence. Grant enough to the government, and the predators will simply shift to working within the government, which is even worse.
    Civilization is based on trust, and it takes a long, deep look at the social mechanisms that build trust as well as those that destroy it, to reverse the slow downward movement we’re on. Which in a nutshell, is kind of what TRP is about, innit?

  68. @ IIF

    I stick by my assertion. This has been my observation my entire life.

    A sexually and emotionally satisfied woman is as capable of cheating as any other woman, but usually will not. Problem is most men don’t know what it takes, or what it means to have a woman in this state. I still see this quite routinely, and my conclusion that it will never change.

    The only exception to this is The Whore, or the woman with some specific mental issues.

    Re: investment in women, I have no idea what that even means Wrt to myself. I’m not at all a ” women. Control access to sex ” guy, and never have been. Not familiar with the ” she decides not to fuck you..” Thing either.

    I’d never fly a bitch anywhere, and then try what amounts to an approach lol.


    I flew a chick to the Caribbean because I wanted to go, and I wanted to take her with me. Simple. There wasn’t a master plan that needs execution. We banged as soon as we got to the hotel, before anything, because we were highly sexually attracted to one another.

    Lastly, for the record, marriage #1 didn’t end due to infidelity.

    Going ba k to the sexually satisfied point, the only married woman ( that I’m sure of ) that I’d had sex with, one of the reasons that I didn’t suspect she was married was 1) because of the way she pursued me for sex. 2) the enthusiasm she displayed during sex. 3) the visible sexual release after each encounter – babygirl fell asleep hard

    Guys tend to delude themselves into thinking that they have shit handled, meaning once they get a wife or girlfriend, that’s done and gets checked off of a list. Like yard work. Women don’t work like that.

    Mindset and knowledge will determine one’s degree of success. Full Stop.

    It’s eye opening to see how some still empathize with the Aussie’s lack of knowledge, ability and execution. Losing strategy and mindset is supposed to culminate in a loss. Ignorance is something that he will have to address in his life going forward.

    In the meantime, good on Goldmund.


  69. “laws establish norms…no laws, no norms…laws about driving, sure…laws against adultery and premarital sex? lol, not any more”

    Respectfully, Gamer, I think you have it reversed (though not entirely…sometimes laws change norms, an example would be seatbelts and smoking).
    For example, there WERE laws against both, at one time, when social convention was different. Social conventions changed and pressure was placed on the laws to change. Sometimes social conventions and laws aren’t aligned, sometimes they are. We could call them “loose” taboos and “strong” taboos. For example, we have a loose taboo against spitting gum on the sidewalk. Singapore has a strong taboo. We get a lot more gum on our shoes.
    Anyway, done for this morning, hope you and yours have a good day.

  70. @anon: “Civilization is based on trust, and it takes a long, deep look at the social mechanisms that build trust as well as those that destroy it, to reverse the slow downward movement we’re on. Which in a nutshell, is kind of what TRP is about, innit?”

    I used to subscribe to these thoughts as well. But TRP is not about saving the civilization. The civilization does not want to be saved. As harsh as it may sound, it is in the best interest of the civilization when individuals act in their own best interest. Women are subconsciously aware of this (Hypergamy) and navigate through life applying this principle. Alphas are also subconsciously aware of this and when they act out accordingly “in their own best interest” (without thinking of the civilization), they are rewarded with the best that civilization has to offer.

    Alphas and females will survive in any type of civilization (advanced or primitive).

    The Blue Pilled men / Beta men follow the norms and rules to maintain a civilized society, because they are afraid they will not survive in a primitive form of civilization.

  71. @anon

    For example, there WERE laws against both, at one time, when social convention was different. Social conventions changed and pressure was placed on the laws to change.

    human wiring remains constant…biological desires remain constant

    laws change because values change…constraints are valued…values get attacked…constraints (laws) are removed…desires are unconstrained

    you get some weak taboos against extramarital sex in the UMC…not too much in other classes…no social sex norms for the whole society, except against pedophilia and bestiality and…virginity

  72. Facades are just that. People will play along, fooling themselves into thinking something as trivial as where they live, social circles or class puts them above biological nature.

    This is standard procedure in the most wealthy sectors of civilization. It’s how the weaker can create the illusion of power.

    It also usually signals the end of any given civilization, historically.

    Trust is indeed key to the success of these pseudo civilizations, even after they’ve become corrupted beyond reasonable hope.

  73. @If-I-Fell: “What if the mastermind in this situation is Aussie Chick?”

    The host was the “mastermind”.
    He knew the Aussie flew the girl here. Knew the Aussie told the girl “he loved her”. So the host invites his friend, the “god king” of players, to join himself, the Aussie, and the Aussie’s pedestal princess for dinner.
    Coincidence that Goldmund nailed the girl? Sure, just like it’s coincidence that if you drop a mouse in a box with a snake, the snake winds up with a lump in the middle.

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