Rites of Passage

aboriginal-passage

In the past I’ve discussed the hesitancy of young men to refer to themselves as ‘men’ or to really even embrace what might be considered a ‘conventional’ idea of masculinity. You’ve probably read me using that word before. I use the word conventional because I feel it conveys a better understanding of a naturalized expression of masculinity in a way that men evolved into. Occasionally I have a reader ask me why I don’t use the term ‘traditional’ with respect to masculinity, but I’m not sure they really mean the same thing.

It’s easy to think of masculinity in terms of tradition, but whose tradition are we really referring to? ‘Traditional Masculinity’ as a term has assumed a derogatory meaning in a feminine-primary social order. It’s become one of those catch-terms that we’re all supposed to understand as being characteristic of backward mindsets. It’s part of the social convention that seeks to ridicule, shame and confuse boys who later become men about what masculinity ought to mean to them. So, it’s for this reason I use the word ‘conventional’. It conveys the idea that masculinity in a binary sense has evolved aspects that are inherent and unique to men. So while certain cultures may have had different traditions and traditional roles for men, there is a unifying conventionality of masculinity that relates to all men and maleness in general.

Feminine-centrism doesn’t like this idea. It doesn’t like the idea that masculine characteristics or behaviors are the sole propriety of men. The reflex then is to paint any conventionally masculine attribute, way of thinking, aggression, passion or aspiration as either representative of ‘toxic’ harmful or anti-social, or, depending on its usefulness in securing power, it’s cast as something “not necessarily masculine” since some women can lay claim to that trait.

In several prior posts I’ve outlined how boys are taught from a very early age to gender-loathe their maleness. It’s part of Blue Pill conditioning, but more so, I think it’s important for Blue Pill or unplugging adult men to understand the mechanics and reasoning behind why it’s in the Feminine Imperative’s interests to keep conventional masculinity something ambiguous, arbitrary or something men ought to be able to fluidly define for themselves. That last part there is important, because what most men think is their own self-definition of masculinity is always founded in what the Feminine Imperative has conditioned him to believe is correct.

Latent Purposes

In a social order that’s ostensibly founded upon a baseline equalism (in principle) among men and women we have to look at why it might be necessary for boys to be taught that ‘traditional’ masculinity is toxic. The easy answer is a want for control, but not so much in the terms of convincing boys to become men who will loathe their maleness. Remember, there’s a lot of conventional masculinity that is conveniently useful to further the interests of women and Hypergamy – but the conditioning becomes one of selectively classifying the useful aspects as ‘healthy’ and the non-useful ones as ‘toxic’.

The most important thing to consider here is that, for future men, equalism’s purpose in their upbringing is to prevent them from ever internalizing the idea that they should be their own mental point of origin. This I think is one of the fundamental issues most Blue Pill men struggle with in their own unplugging.

One of the old books, traditional, understandings is that men, by virtue of being male, can expect a degree of authority in their lives and in their families. A man may not be the boss at work, but the traditional understanding was that he could expect to be the head of household in his own home. Feminine primacy, under the auspices of equalism, has effectively conditioned this idea out of men over the course of generations. If men and women are blank-slate functional equals, ideally, there will never be a default authority in an intersexual relationship.

From a conventional, evolutionary perspective we know this baseline equalism is not just false, but we also understand that it serves as a control over the masculine nature men are born into. Men and women are different; cognitively, neurologically, biologically and psychologically, but our socialized presumptions with regard to how boys are raised to be men deliberately conditions them to believe we are the same – or at least functionally so.

The Crime of Being Male

There’s been some pushback to this in our Red Pill awakening, and not all of it is the result of the manosphere. As Hypergamy becomes more openly embraced in a larger social respect, more men are made aware of their deliberate conditioning to accommodate it. What they choose to do with that awareness is up to them, but the response from the Feminine Imperative to this awareness is to criminalize or make toxic the embrace of conventional masculinity on the part of men. It becomes a hate-crime to express any conventionally male attribute.

This is a potential danger for Blue Pill men in that the expressions of maleness that they display are on one hand desired by women, but also a risk to their reputation or livelihood if that expression is offensive to women. Red Pill aware men may have the advantage of knowing women’s nature well enough to mitigate the risks, but Blue Pill men will be stuck in a paradigm that puts them at risk for wanting to be men.

Again, equalist Blue Pill conditioning’s purpose is to prevent men from assuming themselves as their mental point of origin, but once a man’s disabused himself of putting the feminine as his primary internal concern there must be an opposite, contingent, reaction on the part of the Feminine Imperative to put him back into compliance. Thus, we see the criminalization of maleness.

Pedestals

For some time it’s been a manosphere staple to tell guys to take the girl off the pedestal if he wants to be successful with women. We call it pedestalization, but one reason that dynamic, to put a woman on a higher order than oneself, is so pervasive in men is due exactly to this “equalist” conditioning. The internalization is one of making that girl, that woman, the centerpiece of a man’s headspace. This becomes who he is and it’s the result of a childhood that taught him he must place the concerns of girls above his own on many different psychological levels.

Once that guy becomes Red Pill aware, no matter who does his unplugging, not only does he remove girls from the pedestal personally, but also on a larger sociological scope. And this scope is what the Feminine Imperative must pushback against.

Blue Pill conditioning teaches boys/men to cast doubt on their own masculinity. What constitutes masculinity? Is it a mask or a performance they put on? Is it something to be proud of or some problem to keep in check? Should boys/men feel insecure or secure about it? These are the consistent ambiguities the Feminine Imperative wants to invest into the next generations of men because it keeps women on the pedestal. Only women possess the solution to their problem of maleness.

But the Blue Pill also conditions boys/men to never presume to consider themselves as a “man”. The joke is that men are never really men, but rather they become ‘bigger boys’. This is a social convention that attempts to keep men in a juvenilized state and thus ensuring women are the only ‘adults’ to make the judgement call. This ridicule has the purpose of denying men their status of ‘manhood’. If men are perpetual boys, they can never assume the default ‘headship’ of being men. It is a control for authority.

This is another reason men are conditioned to keep women on the pedestal; only women can confirm ‘manhood’ from a superior (mental) position in that man’s mind. When a woman is at the top of a man’s mental point of origin – and not even a specific woman, but womankind – she decides his status of being a man. So it follows that men ought to internalize the doubt of understanding manhood or conventional masculinity.

So, the struggle men have in coming to a Red Pill awareness is one of removing women from this pedestal, but also one of giving oneself permission to be a man. This may seem kind of simplistic, but to a guy who’s been conditioned to put women before himself in his own internal, mental, conversations it’s a very tough challenge. Blue Pill conditioning invests a doubt into boys and then men. They are conditioned to self-regulate on many levels, but to generally put their own concerns beneath those of others and largely the feminine. They are taught to self-sublimate by never giving themselves permission to be “men” in a conventional sense.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #9

Never Self-Deprecate under any circumstance. This is a Kiss of Death that you self-initiate and is the antithesis of the Prize Mentality. Once you’ve accepted yourself and presented yourself as a “complete douche” there’s no going back to confidence with a woman. Never appeal to a woman’s sympathies. Her sympathies are given by her own volition, never when they are begged for – women despise the obligation of sympathy. Nothing kills arousal like pity. Even if you don’t seriously consider yourself pathetic, it never serves your best interest to paint yourself as pathetic. Self-Depreciation is a misguided tool for the AFC, and not something that would even occur to an Alpha.

One important reason I made this an Iron Rule was because it’s almost a default response of men to presume their own ridiculousness. The reflexive response is of course to not take yourself so seriously and have an ability to laugh at yourself when it’s merited. That’s all fine and well, a necessity for a healthy sense of self, but few men realize their ease with self-deprecation is a result of their conditioning to find themselves ridiculous as men. “Men” are ridiculous.

It’s very easy for Red Pill aware men to lose sight of what the Blue Pill conditions men for and how this conditioning has evolved over the course of generations. The latent purpose remains the same (preventing men from adopting their own mental point of origin), but the methods and social mores change fluidly with what the Feminine Imperative finds most efficient for the time. For the past 20 years there’s been a concentrated effort to remove men from deciding their own manhood for themselves.

Rites of Passage

From Remove the Man:

Guys vs. Men

I was participating in a conversation just recently with a young woman of 26 and a young man of 18. The conversation itself wasn’t important, but at one point the young man referred to himself as a ‘Man’. He said something to the effect of, “Well I’m a man, and men do,..” At the word ‘man’ she cut him off with the unconscious snigger that’s resulted from years of feminine ridicule conditioning. Just the mention of a man self-referencing as a “man” is enough to inspire feminine ridicule. It’s laughable for a man to consider himself a man.

This exchange got me to wondering about the turning point at which I began to self-reference as a “Man”. In the face of a constant conditioned ridicule, it’s almost an uncomfortable recognition to distinguish yourself as a Man. It’s too easy to just think of yourself as a ‘guy’ and never be so presumptuous as to insist upon your manhood. In girl-world, to claim to be a Man is to admit to arrogance – it’s to embrace a flawed nature.

It’s important to note here that in embracing your status as a Man, instead of ‘just a guy’, you are passing a meta-shit test. By embracing self-referenced manhood, you are rejecting what a world aligned against you would like you to believe about yourself. You’re endorsing yourself as a Man with self-assurance despite the self-doubt the Feminine Imperative relies upon men believing about themselves, masculinity and the dubious state of manhood as a whole. By flagrantly referring to yourself as a Man you are passing the meta-shit test – you’re overtly stating you’re a Man, but you you’re covertly stating “I Just Get It.”

One of the key elements to unplugging is changing your mind about yourself. This is one of the biggest obstacle to guys coming to accept a Red Pill aware reality. This self-denial of their own ‘manhood’, which becomes a resistance to embracing anything conventionally masculine as being positive, is a foreign thought.

As I mentioned in that post, there used to be a time when boys would go through some rite of passage and be considered a ‘man’ by his family and peers. It’s important for Red Pill men to realize how this passage into a state of manhood has been deliberately confused or shamed out of significance to all but the most traditional of cultures.

Most male rites of passage are painted as cruel and barbaric hazing rituals in a fem-centric society. That’s a popularized and easy connection to make, but what underlies this effort to disqualify manhood as legitimate is a push to force men into compliance with the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primacy.

I would suggest that men coming into a Red Pill awareness need to embrace being a “man”. Red Pill men need a rite of passage of some sort. Sometimes we ask about when a guy finally came into his Red Pill awareness. We compare stories about what we were like when we were still living in a Blue Pill paradigm and then what form of trauma (or not) triggered that Blue Pill disillusionment. We discuss going through the various stages of grief for our past Blue Pill idealism, the nihilism, the anger, the disbelief, then the acceptance and the new enthusiasm of being Red Pill aware and the potential that means.

But there needs to be a rite of passage for passing from that Blue Pill state to a new Red pill awareness and part of this should be a conscious acknowledgement of  giving yourself permission to be a man. This needs to be part of changing your mind about yourself as you become more aware of the agency you really have in a conventionally male respect. You need a point at which you set yourself apart from Blue Pill men and a feminine-primary social order.

Most (Beta) guys have a difficult time embracing the authority and due deference that being a conventional man should convey to him. They are uncomfortable on an ego-personality level with accepting this dominant male role because it goes against everything their feminine-centric upbringing has taught them to internalize.

However, with that authority comes responsibility. I would argue that many a Blue Pill guy is comforted by the lies of equalism because he believes that egalitarianism and the expectations that men and women are functional equals in some way exempts him from his uniquely male burden of performance. On some level of consciousness, even the Beta men who are comforted by equalism still realize that their maleness, their ‘secure’ masculinity, will only ever be merited and judged by his performance. And that performance is firmly grounded in conventionally male tests.

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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SFC Ton
5 years ago

I feel none of this would ever had happened if all of us were meeting in person however.
……….

Yeah because I would have moved to a new venue

The YSG vs OMG debate….. reminds me of the Clinton’s what the definition of is is. Utterly fucking pointless and there’s bourbon to drink, bikes to ride and bitches to bang

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Elooie You are being indirect in your questioning. If I were Rollo I would question: what are you really asking. In other words: “How can I help you?” What are your motivations and goals? Do you want to “get” with some of the girls in your employment? If you do, this is the paradox that Scribbler was going through in mentorship game with younger women. It takes balance. And it is sexual balance if that is what you are actually asking about and if that is appropriate in your workplace. “Both of those situations in a blue pill world would… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Elooie

Plus get a better avatar name. WTF?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“I feel none of this would ever had happened if all of us were meeting in person however.” I can’t recall ever actually throwing punches in real life. But I don’t recall ever really being blue pill or not battling against the feminine imperative. I can’t recall ever not disagreeing with other guys that I didn’t resonate with. The greatest thrill in my life was hopping on a co-workers Hond 550 Four in 1980. I tried to buy one with no money a year later. I saw one in the Salvation Army store back in 1982. (Priced at $500.) But… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

SJF In the late 70s early 80s I worked for this old wrench,one of the 10th mountain div. ski patrol,met most of the 10th as they would come to hang at the garage talk politics bet on games ect. Made the mistake of talking humor with his wife,something to the efect of how okies drop their jaw for effect after saying something.She took offense to this and mentioned it to the old man. He got in my face,and he was snorting mad,you bet I made a sincere apology to his wife in his presence. I was young and dumb and… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ Rollo One of the main reasons I chose what I’m doing as my profession is because it’s a trade. Supplying tangible products/services. Faster EFT strikes me as very similar to PUA. Yes, it works. The heart of it is really good. I’ve seen the benefits firsthand, both with myself and other people. In Faster EFT the advice is “actionable” in the sense that there is a specific thing to do to deal with emotional issues. It isn’t some pie in the sky idealism thing — there is a specific plan of action with the specific goal of addressing emotional… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
5 years ago

“why are these things ALWAYS like a minimum of a couple thousand dollars?” see the cnn doc about james arthur ray. they interviewed a couple of women who were in sedona when those poeple died in the sweat lodge. this one woman pulled out a bankers box of notebooks she said were filled with writing she had done at his seminars over a period of YEARS. she hadn’t looked at the stuff for a year but was ready to get back to work on herself. lol. perfect ons material. all of them. “self improvement is masturbation” – palahniuk/uhls “self improvement… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

Being a man. Integrity. Rites of Passage are all about becoming something greater than you were before. Wiser. Stronger. Authenticity. The loss of that, for whatever reason, is not good. And maybe is what gives way to people whoring themselves out. It’s a moot point if you look at TRP as an individual journey and that you don’t need anyone except yourself to go through any particular Rite of Passage. But I maintain it’s a cultural thing at heart. This doesn’t mean the individual can’t go through “Rites of Passage,” but I wouldn’t call them “Rites of Passage” for semantics’… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

My toughest rite of passage was when in eighth grade when a group (maybe 8) of big, tough kids confronted me (I was a shrimp) and the leader told me to suck his dick. I put up my fists and got ready to fight. The leader was so sure that I would beg or comply that he didn’t know what to do at that point. Another guy who was a clown but also a tough kid started telling the leader why he didn’t need to beat me up and how it wouldn’t earn him any laurels and I got some… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Welp, I tried.

Lost Patrol
Lost Patrol
5 years ago

boys and men are emotionally stunted and damaged because of how they’re forced to suppress their emotions, etc.

If they’re emotionally stunted and damaged, it’s because they’re not suppressing their emotions near enough. The kind of emotions women are talking about? Suppress the hell out of them. They won’t help you.

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Lost Patrol

Dalrock
http://wp.me/pXWyH-ari

ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@Elooie, you’re onto something. I read your post and saw myself in it. Unfortunately, as the emotional dumpster. Although I sincerely believe I have turned the corner of late.
I would be interested in any solicited essay on the topic.

ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@Rollo

If RSD are moving into the positive thinking model, their clients will soon question their approach as well as their results.
Those questioning minds will eventual discover this blog. Ultimately swell your ranks.

Don’t you think you owe the boys and girls at RSD, a christmas card at least?

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“I mean after all once you accept women for what they are and realize the game you’re playing….and just say shit it is what it is.. then it just is what it is. You play and You get better.”

wise words right there… Fuck it, might as well have some fun.

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

Blax “I will always be this way because it’s part of who I am. It’s got nothing to do with ego…” http://gph.is/13FqVUf I mean, you do see what you did there, right? Who is this “I” you speak of? SJF “Yeah, it’s not cliques going on. More like tribal associations.” http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/incredulous.gif po-tay-to, po-tah-to Ollie “I would be interested in any solicited essay on the topic.” When they start treating you as an emotional tampon, walk away. Take your ball and go home because they sure as hell won’t be playing with your balls. It means she doesn’t see you as… Read more »

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

@Hank It is easier to doxx Register the blog using an email with bogus personal details. he doesn’t want to think up topics. He only needs one – “post your field reports here.” That’s it. Literally. Not the title, the entire post of each and every page on the blog. He can get away with just one page on the blog for a long time until the comments get too unwieldy. Then he creates his second blog post. “FRs part 2.” Again, not the title, this is the entirety of the post. The only significant thing that changes about how… Read more »

anon
anon
5 years ago

There was a scene (I’ve been trying to find it on youtube to link here but it doesn’t seem to be available) in the most recent episode of Vikings, with Ivar (Ragnar’s crippled son). Ivar agreed to go on a raid to England with his father, and his mother had a vision that he would die on the journey. She loved him more than anyone else in the world and didn’t want him to go, and told him about her vision. His entire life she had protected him due to his disability. His response (as best I can remember it):… Read more »

mersonia
5 years ago

@Palleon “He only needs one – “post your field reports here.” That’s it. Literally. Not the title, the entire post of each and every page on the blog. ” Yeah I doubt anyone just wants to look at field reports all day.. But Yeah Basically his the gist of his goal was to reach individuals like scribblerg who felt younger women wouldn’t be attracted to him and whatnot ,and show him that it was possible and encourage him to not give up on himself and that it could be done. To clear up PUA Misconceptions and provide lurkers with information,… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

“Fuck it, might as well have some fun.” Yeah, it’s about a fun, satisfying life, ain’t it? “O God, make me good, but not yet.” ― Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited Weekend’s almost here, wrestling season started (Yay!) so I’ll drop the youngest off for practice, then to a nearby pub with wife. Speaking of, I haven’t needed to post many wifey updates since she internalized a lot, and her labile emotional requirements seem sated. If she has an epic melt down and I’ll be sure to pony up. Here’s a good example her frame-grabby: Last night sharing a cigar and… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Before long she’ll giggle like a school girl when you call her the wine wench

anon
anon
5 years ago
Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

Yeah I doubt anyone just wants to look at field reports all day..

Have you never heard of alt.seduction.fast? This is quite literally how PUA took root – people reading each other’s field reports over an email group and providing feedback for each other.

How long have you been doing pick up and posting field reports online? Personally, I’ve been doing it for a long time, and it’s not easy to find someone who gives quality feedback.

If YaReally ever started a blog of this nature, I would go there for his feedback.

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

RCM
http://wp.me/p4dCzl-1IZ

mersonia
5 years ago

@Pellyboy “ave you never heard of alt.seduction.fast? This is quite literally how PUA took root – people reading each other’s field reports over an email group and providing feedback for each other.” Don’t got time for all that gotta get the kiddies ready and stuff while I write these post just cause I feel like blessing you guys with my words today. but Yeah man……Time Sink…. Your missing the point. “How long have you been doing pick up and posting field reports online? Personally, I’ve been doing it for a long time, and it’s not easy to find someone who… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Palleon – “Barbarossa” isn’t a MGTOW. He dates and fucks women – he just doesn’t do LTRs or marriage. But he rejects and spits on PUAs, lol. He’s also a pseudo-intellectual dingbat on many topics he opines about. His political and economic ideas are juvenile sophistry and he refuses to engage on those issues when he is schooled. Sure, he calls himself MGTOW. Someone else on this thread pointed this out too and all I have to say is this. Being independent and dealing with women on your own terms is what the Red Pill is all about. That is… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Andy – You want truth? Shut the fuck up, your entire comment was adolescent, pseudo-intellectual, dime-store psychological bullshit. Your ego is coming through as you tear down men 10 times better than you will likely ever become.

In the real world you’d be gargling with your teeth right now. Just who in the fuck do you think you are?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Rollo That RSD video is one of the most rambling things I’ve seen in a while. There was maybe 30 minutes of material there, tops. Tyler’s bumping up against TRM / Athol MMSL / Dalrock territory. “Men are from Mars” and Deida are 90’s books, sorta useful but out of date, this is ironic given RSD’s cutting-edge image. His cold call, club / street game is obviously strong, but he’s obviously not congruent in LTR game. Maybe someone needs to send him a couple of books, like “TRM” and “Preventative medicine”, heh. “You don’t attract what you want, you attract… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Rollo – Bravo. Great comment. It seems some men are confused about what you are doing here. You are beyond and deeper than PUA and the Men’s Rights Movement. You base your commentary on science and ideas that are not just hackneyed slogans and then are open to questioning them. Your entire pose is descriptive and analytical versus prescriptive while some of the morons biting at your ankles don’t even know what that fucking means. The fact that you don’t monetize this is absolutely key. I’ve had a similar experience with my writing and music. I decided long ago that… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@scribblerg

I appreciate Rollo’s stuff. Learned a lot from everyone here. Just wish he’d open his mind a bit more… but, that’s just my idealism showing again.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Andy – No, it’s your bitchy arrogance showing again. Your fatal flaw as a man. Guys like you used to get punched a lot and then they shut up. But these days pussies like you run their mouths without tasting their own blood in their mouths.

Shut up. For like a year. It will probably be the best year of your life.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Andy – And remember, you just asked for this.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Sorry I picked on your bff dude.

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

I mean, what is your definition of MGTOW that differs from the Red Pill as I defined it above? *Shrug* The only MGTOWs I really payed any attention to were Barbarossa and RazorBladeKandy. I feel that both exposed me to some ideas that were both useful and new to me, particularly razor blade Kandy. The idea that both men and women are biologically designed for Gynocentrism did not really register with me until I started listening to them. I already gave you the definition they used. I remember it particularly as they’re was a big blow up with Paul Elam… Read more »

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

@Mersonia

You gotta move on bro…. nothing last forever

Do you honestly think I’m upset?

I thought I was merely calmly supporting my argument.

Which parts of my posts give you the impression that I’m feeling butt hurt?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Pelleon I also believe that being “red pill” is more like being in shape than it is like passing a milestone. You can be in really great shape now, but still not quite be in as good of a shape as the guy next to you. If you don’t continue to exercise, than you decline in physique and stamina until you start exercising again. Likewise, I believe that being red pill is less a binary state of “plugged” and “unplugged,” and more of a constant exercise in overcoming the wireless signals of the matrix and forcing your brain to use… Read more »

Chump No More
Chump No More
5 years ago

@Andy “Sorry I picked on your bff dude.” This passive-aggressive, juvenile shit is why the adults here call you out. For some reason, @SJF sees something in you worth redeeming but I still stand by original my evaluation… you’re a whiny, petulant child with an over-dramatized case of buyer’s remorse, obsessing constantly about ‘what you’ve missed’ or ‘not getting’. Kid, there’s no such thing as a raw deal, because life is about what you do and what you allow. Buyer’s remorse is nothing more than not owning the path you chose and/or not having the balls to pick a new… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

I think even for te best of us this is a hope we wish for. We can’t escape the burden of performance. This has been the root of my trauma since I was 8yrs old. When I got pulverized with emotional rate from women in my family. I didn’t let it affect me by it did none the less. Their was no push back from my dad who lived and is still living a double life. I can’t change the people who ha said the words “Iove you” the most to me. The guilt and social sickness was hard on… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Andy, have you read “Man’s search for meaning” by Viktor Frankl at all, or lately?

Just asking.

ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@scribblerg If 80-90% of women are chasing 20% of men, why shouldn’t 80% of men give up? Why waste time, money and energy trying to catch a girl who doesn’t want to be caught by you? Better he save those things and make something of himself. If all else fails at least a hypergamous woman will make herself available to him. I also hate the lie that men can have women on their own terms. Almost all of today’s women (in the west) subscribe to the feminine imperative. A woman may pretend she isn’t a member of that club, for… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“Many of the OMGs have good-naturally given you their time, attention and good, actionable advise and your choice for a (non) good-bye speech was to tell them to “Fuck off”.” Yeah, kind shitty. I’ll admit that. Although I just really like that clip from Half Baked and it seemed like an awesome time to use it. lol. Thanks guys! “It doesn’t surprise me one bit that you chose to align with the PUAs. Their craft is founded in the ability to create the illusion of value where none may actually exist… and for the adept, this works well with ONS… Read more »

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

“If 80-90% of women are chasing 20% of men, why shouldn’t 80% of men give up?” Because of biology. “A woman may pretend she isn’t a member of that club, for as long as it suits her. But at the drop of a hat, she’ll drop the act.” A woman may pretend she don’t need no man, for as long as it suits her. But at the hint of alpha, shell drop the act. “How would you catergorise men who are red pill aware, but haven’t killed their beta?” As ” almost there”. “What of the man who went MGTOW… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

ollie
How would you catergorise men who are red pill aware, but haven’t killed their beta?

Not yet fully red pill. Still in the process of becoming red pill.
Possibly still stuck in the bargaining phase.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Chump No More Well said in a married LTR red pill fashion. Actionable advice for Andy. Just a little bit of clarification in something I have said indirectly before. I have a little hope for Andy simply because I remember when I was his age and had similar aged children. I think he’s going through a phase. (A dangerous one at that.) My hope is the fog and the dust clears for him over time. A couple years. I was in a fog of war with the process of raising young children and my wife being a woman of high… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“…most use it as an excuse not to bust a move . . .” Move upstream and review the Vikings thingy. The woman here seems to get it better than the men at the moment. Throughout most of history, most men have spent most of their time in an environment absent of women. As young as 5 they were sent to schools where there were no women. They went into military service where there no women; none, even secretaries and nurses were men. They went to jobs where there was no HR and no women. NO women. When they chased… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Andy, have you read “Man’s search for meaning” by Viktor Frankl at all, or lately?” Back in the old days (the late 1970’s) we actually had to read books because internet searches weren’t available. I read that book back then, probably as a required reading in Humanities Seminar. These day’s simply exploring Wikipedia or searching for a review of an old book is actually quite rewarding. Frankl’s concepts are worth knowing and understanding. Rather than power or pleasure (Heh, PUA life), Victor Frankl’s concept was the belief that it is the striving to find a meaning in one’s life that… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

kfg “The Hero Path We have not even to risk the adventure alone for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known … we have only to follow the thread of the hero path. And where we had thought to find an abomination we shall find a God. And where we had thought to slay another we shall slay ourselves. Where we had thought to travel outwards we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone we shall be with all the world.” ― Joseph… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Look, the reason I’m interested in the PUA stuff is mostly for the growth. The social skills, frame control, learning to control my state, learning more about myself, deriving my self worth internally and having it tested… and we’re all for conquering fears here right? I think it’ll make me a better Dad too… I don’t see why it has to be separate from TRM and TRP, and MRA, and all this shit… BUT… I get that it is very easily misunderstood. I was a guy that misunderstood it… I’ll check out the books. Thanks. Working my way through a… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@Andy Look, the reason I’m interested in the PUA stuff is mostly for the growth. The social skills, frame control, learning to control my state, learning more about myself, deriving my self worth internally and having it tested Me, too. Best wishes. It still tickles and surprises me when a young hottie tries to get my attention. (I bet you get the same feeling.) There were two who sat across the table from me, trying to get my attention. I gave them some, flirting with and teasing them. It was a board game meetup, so it’s easy to be out… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Rugby “We can’t escape the burden of performance. This has been the root of my trauma since I was 8yrs old. When I got pulverized with emotional rate from women in my family. I didn’t let it affect me by it did none the less.” What happened when you were 8? When I was 7 my parents divorced,and as the oldest male in the house I recieved the brunt of abuse and still do. “Their was no push back from my dad who lived and is still living a double life” A man does what he can to survive. .”… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

There may have been one heck of a Rite of Passage about 8,000 years ago.

https://psmag.com/8-000-years-ago-17-women-reproduced-for-every-one-man-6d41445ae73d#.uvnz3intc

Evo – psych sez “Gee, why is it that women might go along with polygamy under some conditions? Anything to do with a genetic bottleneck in the past?”

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Greg Cochrane didn’t buy it, but did have an explanation.

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/y-chromosome-crash/

Someone remind me how many children Genghis Khan fathered.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I had an odd experience yesterday. TL;DR: All this talk about technology distancing people and 2016 women not being able to engage with men because of technology self validation, is self evident, but not an excuse to not engage and be authentic. Passionate and dynamic are optional, but desirable. Wealth, wealth, looks status don’t actually go out of style. The odd experience was watching an old movie. Mr. Skeffington with Bette Davis and Claude Raines from 1944. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Skeffington The actors, especially the men were terribly straightforward, unflinching, non jittery and always looked someone in the eyes when they were talking… Read more »

anon
anon
5 years ago

“No”

So why do you come here Liz?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Andy “Look, the reason I’m interested in the PUA stuff is mostly for the growth. The social skills, frame control, learning to control my state, learning more about myself, deriving my self worth internally and having it tested… and we’re all for conquering fears here right? I think it’ll make me a better Dad too… I don’t see why it has to be separate from TRM and TRP, and MRA, and all this shit… BUT… I get that it is very easily misunderstood. I was a guy that misunderstood it…” Sounds legit to me. And thanks for your admission. You… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“All the men were DPA, but still on a bell curve . . .”

The race doesn’t get easier as your condition improves, it gets faster.

If everyone is improving, it gets much, much harder as the time gaps between competitors shrink and they have to run faster just to maintain their normal finishing place – but the results tables all look the same, an ordered list. 90% of men cannot be above average.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

You gotta be shitting me. Liz and Em-ily are engaging in subcommunication here. With anon avatars. How the hell did that happen?

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@AR

Interesting reads,the two things both authors fail to recognize is there never was an egalitarian utopia and white men didn’t invent slavery

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

That’s been going for months. At least one of them used to be “a” and the other “A.” Now they’re both wearing the same Halloween costume.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“90% of men cannot be above average.” Back in 1984-1985 I used to be terribly frightful if I couldn’t be above 93.5% in my medical school grades (otherwise known as Honors). It was so much enjoyable to look down on the others. And not because of Schadenfreude, but from desire for own personal merit. As I’ve mentioned before, I was literally assaulted at the time with comments from my classmates: “Why do we have to learn this shit (referring to the mundane), why can’t we just get to the good stuff?” Which is where came my SJF Maxim #1: “Everything… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“That’s been going for months. At least one of them used to be “a” and the other “A.” Now they’re both wearing the same Halloween costume.”

I’m shocked to learned that female observation and subcommunication has been going on here for months. In a submissive way. Lol: Anon-ing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM_A4Skusro

Subtle ways of female sub-communication: It’s a thing.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Relevant to my earlier comment, the South London Being A Man festival (BAM) is a feminist conference where women give men permission to peacefully assemble and explore the masculine identity that mommy will approve of:

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

stuffinbox
Interesting reads,the two things both authors fail to recognize is there never was an egalitarian utopia and white men didn’t invent slavery

Yup.
Cochrane pointed out that just because male-DNA didn’t survive from 8,000 years ago doesn’t mean it faded out then, there’s plenty of other times for it to fade. But the Dark Triad works on women for a reason. “Rape” fantasies exist for a reason, they don’t just pop out of nowhere.
Fitness testing bubbling up from a woman’s hindbrain isn’t an accident. It may be vestigal, but it isn’t an accident.

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@AR

A native american friend was taught his native culture by the old men.One of the rituals involved a sacred club used to publicly bash in the head of an unruly slave in a ritual to keep order save food and show alpha.

We know who’s dna is being passed on in this instance.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

anon
December 9, 2016 at 7:31 pm

Too. Much. Information.

Shush.

flandersfleming
5 years ago

Dear Rollo, off- topic but I’ve read a great deal of your work and your ideas have helped codify my previous confusion about why I was having or not having success with females. Thank You! I’m curious about how you would break-down a marriage of high-school sweethearts or just people who went to HS together(not sure they dated since HS in every case). I graduated 20 years ago but I know people like this. Did they both abandon their strategies? Is it traditionalism, true love or laziness? I haven’t been able to define it. If you covered this in an… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@anon December 9, 2016 at 7:31 pm “I believe someone told Liz to stop posting here so she switched to anon (i THINK that was the reason, not sure.) And I get banned by Rollo if I post my name.” She only drinks coffee at midnight, when the moment is not Right, her timing is quite unusual You see her confidence is tragic, but her intuition magic And the shape of her body unusual Meet Virgina (nee, Em-iley) I can’t wait to Meet Virginia, yeah e yeah hey hey hey *Emi-ley) Well she wants to be the queen and Then… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@flandersfleming

If Rollo were to question you further, I dare say he would question “What is your question of how I can help you?”

Rather than questioning third party issues. Who the fuck knows how to help those off in the distance? What are you going to do about yourself? What issue do you have with those early (sweetheart) adopters? What problems do they present for you? Are you annoyed by them, or do they just frustrate you because they are, or are not working?

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Re: Meet Vagina Virginia:

This song was inspired at least partially by one of Pat Monahan’s friends, who according to Pat, would make up all these stories about stuff that Pat supposedly did. Pat says the song isn’t supposed to be about one woman, but rather, several people.

Otherwise known as archetypes.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

BTW,

Are you actually advancing your Real Girl Power knowledge in the Philosophy Studies Realm?

That shit takes thinking outside (of the Main Stream Media) box. Good luck with that.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I don’t actually have a problem with you. At all. I think you are as cute as my daughter’s best girlfriends. I know the host of the blog you are posting on thinks you are a fucking liar. But hey Soul Sister, you actually have a one track mind that doesn’t resonate with the rational male. You prove the red pill case. You are opportunistic as all get out and I wouldn’t take you fishing. Mind you some of us don’t diss-love women. Liz actually, as she has reporte,d has a healthy respect for her husband. You actually don’t treat… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

“If man is to survive, he will have learned to take a delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a delight, part of life’s exciting variety, not something to fear.” ― Gene Roddenberry http://youtu.be/KMa1v7ii5P0?a “It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will not reach our ultimate goal. The effort itself yields its own reward.” “Time is the fire in which we burn.” Broke passed the primal and connected politely than… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Particularly awkward in December.”

But it’s given enough time to build up a differentiable stain pattern on the outfits, so you’ve got that going for you, which is nice.

ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@other grain

If you don’t think biology is something to be overcome, then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion.

When you dismiss a man seeking to better himself for the prospect of meeting a woman. You place her currency above, that of his.
You’re in fact intimating all his efforts are worth the possibility of a chance encounter.
If there’s a better definition of the blue pill, I have yet to find it.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@AR Looking at the abstract of the paper of interest… Here, we present a study of 456 geographically diverse high-coverage Y chromosome sequences http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract So, the study is based on Y-chromosome reproduction. If a man only has daughters, then he won’t pass on his Y-chromosome. Oops. At least one of a woman’s sex chromosomes will ALWAYS be passed on in reproduction. A man’s Y-chromosome has approximately a 50% chance of not being passed on for any particular offspring. The more generations, the more the authors’ mistake will make it appear like men don’t reproduce. Anthropological dumbasses, lol. We hypothesize that… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“If you don’t think biology is something to be overcome, then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion.”

If you think that you can overcome biology, then you have an irreconcilable difference with reality.

And by the way, can I interest you in my Breatharian boot camp? Only $3k American.* Graduates qualify to take my levitation boot camp.

*No refunds for drop outs.

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

“If you don’t think biology is something to be overcome, then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion.” Best of luck with that. “When you dismiss a man seeking to better himself for the prospect of meeting a woman. You place her currency above, that of his.” Nope. When you think you need to stay out of the smp until you better yourself before even the PROSPECT of meeting a woman, you’re inherently assuming you are not good enough NOW. It also follows that her currency MUST be above yours because you need to improve your current self to meet… Read more »

kuchak
kuchak
5 years ago

The topic pic took me back to the first time I saw that flick, “Walkabout”. I recall being amazed at the amount of nudity in it, for the time.

ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@othergrain When a man has the urge to fornicate and his partner doesn’t. His biology demands he subdue his partner in order to gain satisfaction. Instead of doing this, the man calmly goes to the bathroom and relieves himself, with the aid of pornography. With this simple act he overcame his biology. The thirsty man who arrives at a well and allows his dog to drink before he does, has overcome his physiological imperative. Civilization was built on humans curtailing their base instincts. A MGTOW man in mission mode is gathering resources expressly for himself. What worries me is you… Read more »

Kaminsky
Kaminsky
5 years ago

@Ollie “As if what he achieves must have been for her benefit all along.” Exactly this. Nothing smokes out trad-con blue-pillers like a MGTOW discussion. Go back and forth with them long enough (it’s usually immediate anyway) and they will reveal their pedestalization tendencies or their need for female approval or some such fem-centric conditioning. Usually, it’s a guy who backs up his claim to being redpill with a female’s stamp of approval. “I’m redpill! I’ve kept a wife for thirty years. See? That proves it.” There are chicken or egg dynamics all over the place with MGTOW discussions so… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

We need an international MGTOW Day where we all give the traditional MGTOW Day gift, “What the hell is MGTOW?”

Trent Lane
Trent Lane
5 years ago

@ Rollo vs. YaReally beef. I think it’s sad and unfortunate and could have been avoided. Because like someone else remarked I too feel that you both, Rollo and YaReally, have the same altruistic passion for helping men in general and incredibly invaluable shit to offer. Your approaches are complementing each other, it’s really the ying and yang of the whole picture. So it’s sad that what was and could have been an incredibly benefitial cooperation and cohabitation should clash like this. But what can you do. As rare as any red pill man with a true understanding and appreciation… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@Trent cosign what you said. you need that balance of OMG and YSG to get an accurate picture of the world. You need the guys working theory and the guys out in the field learning how things work in real time. The more communication there is between the two, the more concrete their ideas become. TRM gives PUA a deeper understanding of why certain game techniques work (in most cases, hypergamy) and PUA/FRs help refine TRM theory. Unfortunately what happens is people cling to tribal identities and to their own beliefs and don’t want to listen to or accept ideas… Read more »

mersonia
5 years ago

@Hank

“But they just keeep going. So those two should learn to let it drop after a while. Cuz OMGs certainly won’t.”

Nah…. some people got stamina and go for days….so you gotta go for days

Colbert
Colbert
5 years ago
rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@Hank Holiday YaReally, Scray, Blaximus, Kfg and all the other PUA sycophants are frauds. I get sick of having to scroll past their rubbish. Endless field reports from men who never seem to leave their computers. Where do they get the time to do half the stuff they claim? Their responses, to anyone questioning their methods, are always trite. Then when this is pointed out there’s always someone on hand to excuse their indifference with a “they’ve been doing this for a long time and they don’t have time for newbies. You just need to get out there and do… Read more »

ollieoxenfree1
ollieoxenfree1
5 years ago

@Hank Holiday

Looks are the god of attraction. Anyone saying otherwise is a heretic and a fool to boot.
All of us kneel before that altar in some form or fashion.

PUAs are selling a product and have to convince men looks don’t count. Which speaks to Rollo’s assertion, RSD are manipulating those in need of help.

Trent Lane
Trent Lane
5 years ago

@Hank Everything you said except I‘d try to get away from this unfortunate OMG/YSG brandings too. It‘s not helpful and creates all kind of indentity-branding-baggage. There certainly are OMGs who are more social, outgoing, gaming and in the field than a lot of YSGs and bitter, lonely, ranting YSGs stuck in the stale comfort-zone-monotony of their brains and computer chairs forever. I‘d see it as Red Pill and PUA because these are more nuanced and helpful terms than OMG/YSG in what we are trying to communicate. As a Red-Pill-Man of any age ore marriage status who never goes out and… Read more »

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

@YaReally and @Scray (just in case he Ctrl+F this) @Hank and @Trent: I agree with much of what you said, it is a shame that YaReally got fed up and I lost a chunk of respect for anyone that was glad to see him leave and continued with snark about the whole issue well after he left. I don’t think he is coming back to this comment section, which is a shame. That said, I think Ya will continue to post somewhere else. Maybe he will be gracious enough to let us know somehow, maybe the archive will eventually track… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Ollie – I have a nickname for men who give up. “Losers”. Notice it’s not based on whether they win or lose. And of course, you are assuming 80% of of men can’t get laid, lol. Have you read anything here? Perhaps you should try out this thing called “The Red Pill”? Let me break it down for you: 1. You internalize your own masculinity and appetite and innate nature. Own it, stop resisting it. You stop shaming it. You realize you are essentially a sexual predator, not meaning you will take women agains their will but rather that you… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Re: Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning – Gave it to my daughter upon her college graduation and she looked at me like I was insane. I always held it as one of the most moving books I’ve ever read and thought that she’d be “ready” for it.

Lol.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

When a man has the urge to fornicate and his partner doesn’t. His biology demands he subdue his partner in order to gain satisfaction. Instead of doing this, the man calmly goes to the bathroom and relieves himself, with the aid of pornography.

With this simple act he overcame his biology.

Painful rationalization… he used a buffer to avoid his biology. He did not triumph over it.

Do the hard work… Don’t be this guy. sad. 🙁

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@Hank

You need the guys working theory and the guys out in the field learning how things work in real time.

So Rollo, Blax, Sentient, and I aren’t out in the field? Lol, silly boy.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Hank

Mainly, its OMG’s who accept any questioning of marriage as a personal assault on their wives

I’m an OMG and I don’t recall any such thing. I think that Blax is in the same camp as me and he’s an OMG. Ditto Rollo. IDK about Sentient, but I suspect that he wouldn’t advocate marriage. I think that you’re Making Shit Up ™. Silly boy.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@Ollie Looks are the god of attraction. Anyone saying otherwise is a heretic and a fool to boot. The old troll Henry Kissinger was laid like tile. Call me a Red Pill heretic from Blue Pill “Looks are the god of attraction”. You can call me a fool as well, lol, Idc. Looks matter somewhat, especially if you are relying on IOIs before you approach. The hottest guys approach without waiting for IOIs. Last night this old fart (c’est moi) was dancing with hotties all night and young, handsome guys were just watching. The hotties were giving me logistical info… Read more »

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

“A MGTOW man in mission mode is gathering resources expressly for himself. What worries me is you fail to grasp this concept. As if what he achieves must have been for her benefit all along. He’s doing it because he wants to impress her or feel he has earned her affection by pandering to her hypergamy.” Men have no use for resources, outside of how they help him successfully reproduce. That’s it. The meaning of life is to pass on DNA. “What’s so wrong with him taking his hard earned gains and using them for his own purpose? Your line… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Everything you said except I‘d try to get away from this unfortunate OMG/YSG brandings too. I note, however, that as I am being accused of being part of the anti-PUA, OMG clique by one part of the room, while being accused of being a PUA sycophant from another part of the room is a pretty good bit of evidence that I am neither. What I appear to be is a human Rorshcach test. Call me a Watchman and give me a T-shirt that reads “Aim you projection here.” “… he used a buffer to avoid his biology.” No, actually, he… Read more »

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