Rites of Passage

aboriginal-passage

In the past I’ve discussed the hesitancy of young men to refer to themselves as ‘men’ or to really even embrace what might be considered a ‘conventional’ idea of masculinity. You’ve probably read me using that word before. I use the word conventional because I feel it conveys a better understanding of a naturalized expression of masculinity in a way that men evolved into. Occasionally I have a reader ask me why I don’t use the term ‘traditional’ with respect to masculinity, but I’m not sure they really mean the same thing.

It’s easy to think of masculinity in terms of tradition, but whose tradition are we really referring to? ‘Traditional Masculinity’ as a term has assumed a derogatory meaning in a feminine-primary social order. It’s become one of those catch-terms that we’re all supposed to understand as being characteristic of backward mindsets. It’s part of the social convention that seeks to ridicule, shame and confuse boys who later become men about what masculinity ought to mean to them. So, it’s for this reason I use the word ‘conventional’. It conveys the idea that masculinity in a binary sense has evolved aspects that are inherent and unique to men. So while certain cultures may have had different traditions and traditional roles for men, there is a unifying conventionality of masculinity that relates to all men and maleness in general.

Feminine-centrism doesn’t like this idea. It doesn’t like the idea that masculine characteristics or behaviors are the sole propriety of men. The reflex then is to paint any conventionally masculine attribute, way of thinking, aggression, passion or aspiration as either representative of ‘toxic’ harmful or anti-social, or, depending on its usefulness in securing power, it’s cast as something “not necessarily masculine” since some women can lay claim to that trait.

In several prior posts I’ve outlined how boys are taught from a very early age to gender-loathe their maleness. It’s part of Blue Pill conditioning, but more so, I think it’s important for Blue Pill or unplugging adult men to understand the mechanics and reasoning behind why it’s in the Feminine Imperative’s interests to keep conventional masculinity something ambiguous, arbitrary or something men ought to be able to fluidly define for themselves. That last part there is important, because what most men think is their own self-definition of masculinity is always founded in what the Feminine Imperative has conditioned him to believe is correct.

Latent Purposes

In a social order that’s ostensibly founded upon a baseline equalism (in principle) among men and women we have to look at why it might be necessary for boys to be taught that ‘traditional’ masculinity is toxic. The easy answer is a want for control, but not so much in the terms of convincing boys to become men who will loathe their maleness. Remember, there’s a lot of conventional masculinity that is conveniently useful to further the interests of women and Hypergamy – but the conditioning becomes one of selectively classifying the useful aspects as ‘healthy’ and the non-useful ones as ‘toxic’.

The most important thing to consider here is that, for future men, equalism’s purpose in their upbringing is to prevent them from ever internalizing the idea that they should be their own mental point of origin. This I think is one of the fundamental issues most Blue Pill men struggle with in their own unplugging.

One of the old books, traditional, understandings is that men, by virtue of being male, can expect a degree of authority in their lives and in their families. A man may not be the boss at work, but the traditional understanding was that he could expect to be the head of household in his own home. Feminine primacy, under the auspices of equalism, has effectively conditioned this idea out of men over the course of generations. If men and women are blank-slate functional equals, ideally, there will never be a default authority in an intersexual relationship.

From a conventional, evolutionary perspective we know this baseline equalism is not just false, but we also understand that it serves as a control over the masculine nature men are born into. Men and women are different; cognitively, neurologically, biologically and psychologically, but our socialized presumptions with regard to how boys are raised to be men deliberately conditions them to believe we are the same – or at least functionally so.

The Crime of Being Male

There’s been some pushback to this in our Red Pill awakening, and not all of it is the result of the manosphere. As Hypergamy becomes more openly embraced in a larger social respect, more men are made aware of their deliberate conditioning to accommodate it. What they choose to do with that awareness is up to them, but the response from the Feminine Imperative to this awareness is to criminalize or make toxic the embrace of conventional masculinity on the part of men. It becomes a hate-crime to express any conventionally male attribute.

This is a potential danger for Blue Pill men in that the expressions of maleness that they display are on one hand desired by women, but also a risk to their reputation or livelihood if that expression is offensive to women. Red Pill aware men may have the advantage of knowing women’s nature well enough to mitigate the risks, but Blue Pill men will be stuck in a paradigm that puts them at risk for wanting to be men.

Again, equalist Blue Pill conditioning’s purpose is to prevent men from assuming themselves as their mental point of origin, but once a man’s disabused himself of putting the feminine as his primary internal concern there must be an opposite, contingent, reaction on the part of the Feminine Imperative to put him back into compliance. Thus, we see the criminalization of maleness.

Pedestals

For some time it’s been a manosphere staple to tell guys to take the girl off the pedestal if he wants to be successful with women. We call it pedestalization, but one reason that dynamic, to put a woman on a higher order than oneself, is so pervasive in men is due exactly to this “equalist” conditioning. The internalization is one of making that girl, that woman, the centerpiece of a man’s headspace. This becomes who he is and it’s the result of a childhood that taught him he must place the concerns of girls above his own on many different psychological levels.

Once that guy becomes Red Pill aware, no matter who does his unplugging, not only does he remove girls from the pedestal personally, but also on a larger sociological scope. And this scope is what the Feminine Imperative must pushback against.

Blue Pill conditioning teaches boys/men to cast doubt on their own masculinity. What constitutes masculinity? Is it a mask or a performance they put on? Is it something to be proud of or some problem to keep in check? Should boys/men feel insecure or secure about it? These are the consistent ambiguities the Feminine Imperative wants to invest into the next generations of men because it keeps women on the pedestal. Only women possess the solution to their problem of maleness.

But the Blue Pill also conditions boys/men to never presume to consider themselves as a “man”. The joke is that men are never really men, but rather they become ‘bigger boys’. This is a social convention that attempts to keep men in a juvenilized state and thus ensuring women are the only ‘adults’ to make the judgement call. This ridicule has the purpose of denying men their status of ‘manhood’. If men are perpetual boys, they can never assume the default ‘headship’ of being men. It is a control for authority.

This is another reason men are conditioned to keep women on the pedestal; only women can confirm ‘manhood’ from a superior (mental) position in that man’s mind. When a woman is at the top of a man’s mental point of origin – and not even a specific woman, but womankind – she decides his status of being a man. So it follows that men ought to internalize the doubt of understanding manhood or conventional masculinity.

So, the struggle men have in coming to a Red Pill awareness is one of removing women from this pedestal, but also one of giving oneself permission to be a man. This may seem kind of simplistic, but to a guy who’s been conditioned to put women before himself in his own internal, mental, conversations it’s a very tough challenge. Blue Pill conditioning invests a doubt into boys and then men. They are conditioned to self-regulate on many levels, but to generally put their own concerns beneath those of others and largely the feminine. They are taught to self-sublimate by never giving themselves permission to be “men” in a conventional sense.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #9

Never Self-Deprecate under any circumstance. This is a Kiss of Death that you self-initiate and is the antithesis of the Prize Mentality. Once you’ve accepted yourself and presented yourself as a “complete douche” there’s no going back to confidence with a woman. Never appeal to a woman’s sympathies. Her sympathies are given by her own volition, never when they are begged for – women despise the obligation of sympathy. Nothing kills arousal like pity. Even if you don’t seriously consider yourself pathetic, it never serves your best interest to paint yourself as pathetic. Self-Depreciation is a misguided tool for the AFC, and not something that would even occur to an Alpha.

One important reason I made this an Iron Rule was because it’s almost a default response of men to presume their own ridiculousness. The reflexive response is of course to not take yourself so seriously and have an ability to laugh at yourself when it’s merited. That’s all fine and well, a necessity for a healthy sense of self, but few men realize their ease with self-deprecation is a result of their conditioning to find themselves ridiculous as men. “Men” are ridiculous.

It’s very easy for Red Pill aware men to lose sight of what the Blue Pill conditions men for and how this conditioning has evolved over the course of generations. The latent purpose remains the same (preventing men from adopting their own mental point of origin), but the methods and social mores change fluidly with what the Feminine Imperative finds most efficient for the time. For the past 20 years there’s been a concentrated effort to remove men from deciding their own manhood for themselves.

Rites of Passage

From Remove the Man:

Guys vs. Men

I was participating in a conversation just recently with a young woman of 26 and a young man of 18. The conversation itself wasn’t important, but at one point the young man referred to himself as a ‘Man’. He said something to the effect of, “Well I’m a man, and men do,..” At the word ‘man’ she cut him off with the unconscious snigger that’s resulted from years of feminine ridicule conditioning. Just the mention of a man self-referencing as a “man” is enough to inspire feminine ridicule. It’s laughable for a man to consider himself a man.

This exchange got me to wondering about the turning point at which I began to self-reference as a “Man”. In the face of a constant conditioned ridicule, it’s almost an uncomfortable recognition to distinguish yourself as a Man. It’s too easy to just think of yourself as a ‘guy’ and never be so presumptuous as to insist upon your manhood. In girl-world, to claim to be a Man is to admit to arrogance – it’s to embrace a flawed nature.

It’s important to note here that in embracing your status as a Man, instead of ‘just a guy’, you are passing a meta-shit test. By embracing self-referenced manhood, you are rejecting what a world aligned against you would like you to believe about yourself. You’re endorsing yourself as a Man with self-assurance despite the self-doubt the Feminine Imperative relies upon men believing about themselves, masculinity and the dubious state of manhood as a whole. By flagrantly referring to yourself as a Man you are passing the meta-shit test – you’re overtly stating you’re a Man, but you you’re covertly stating “I Just Get It.”

One of the key elements to unplugging is changing your mind about yourself. This is one of the biggest obstacle to guys coming to accept a Red Pill aware reality. This self-denial of their own ‘manhood’, which becomes a resistance to embracing anything conventionally masculine as being positive, is a foreign thought.

As I mentioned in that post, there used to be a time when boys would go through some rite of passage and be considered a ‘man’ by his family and peers. It’s important for Red Pill men to realize how this passage into a state of manhood has been deliberately confused or shamed out of significance to all but the most traditional of cultures.

Most male rites of passage are painted as cruel and barbaric hazing rituals in a fem-centric society. That’s a popularized and easy connection to make, but what underlies this effort to disqualify manhood as legitimate is a push to force men into compliance with the Feminine Imperative and feminine-primacy.

I would suggest that men coming into a Red Pill awareness need to embrace being a “man”. Red Pill men need a rite of passage of some sort. Sometimes we ask about when a guy finally came into his Red Pill awareness. We compare stories about what we were like when we were still living in a Blue Pill paradigm and then what form of trauma (or not) triggered that Blue Pill disillusionment. We discuss going through the various stages of grief for our past Blue Pill idealism, the nihilism, the anger, the disbelief, then the acceptance and the new enthusiasm of being Red Pill aware and the potential that means.

But there needs to be a rite of passage for passing from that Blue Pill state to a new Red pill awareness and part of this should be a conscious acknowledgement of  giving yourself permission to be a man. This needs to be part of changing your mind about yourself as you become more aware of the agency you really have in a conventionally male respect. You need a point at which you set yourself apart from Blue Pill men and a feminine-primary social order.

Most (Beta) guys have a difficult time embracing the authority and due deference that being a conventional man should convey to him. They are uncomfortable on an ego-personality level with accepting this dominant male role because it goes against everything their feminine-centric upbringing has taught them to internalize.

However, with that authority comes responsibility. I would argue that many a Blue Pill guy is comforted by the lies of equalism because he believes that egalitarianism and the expectations that men and women are functional equals in some way exempts him from his uniquely male burden of performance. On some level of consciousness, even the Beta men who are comforted by equalism still realize that their maleness, their ‘secure’ masculinity, will only ever be merited and judged by his performance. And that performance is firmly grounded in conventionally male tests.

 

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@Sent – 924

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Dr. Zipper, I’ll always remember my father telling me, “Son, if you have to clean toilets, make sure you’re the best motherfucking toilet cleaner there.” It really resonated with me. What you do is who you are. Turn in a sloppy paper? Well, that paper has your name on it. Do a shitty job (pun intended) cleaning toilets? Well, that job has your name on it. Relating back to right of passage, he also told me to enjoy the journey as much as the destination. He knew young bucks only wanted to get to the finish line without noticing everything… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . I’m not too good to clean toilets, no other motherfucker is either.”

I think there’s a Biblical passage about that; “Let he who does not shit . . .” or something.

My first car, paid for with my own money, was a rather ratty 356. I’m otherwise located at the moment, but sometimes I comment here from its driver’s seat.

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@kfg – “… there’s a Biblical passage about that…”

yep, it’s in the Book of Job lol

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@Rollo – so you think it was sent with an agenda? derailing or diluting or diverting the topic?

btw, today I’m on an alliterative hot streak

SFC Ton
5 years ago

That was hardcore mgtow? I thought it was buttsore beta who just found out the world isn’t all sunshine and rainbows with unicorns pooping soft served ice cream

https://youtu.be/YbYWhdLO43Q

theasdgamer
5 years ago

I hitched up the east coast and also to Houston…took a one-way free air fare to Houston, then hitched to see my grandma in McAllen, then hitched back to Houston where I worked for my uncle for a few weeks For a couple of months during one summer I lived on one bowl of cereal per meal with a small burger on Friday. I was quite hungry during this time. I never lived off of roadkill or out of trash cans. I’m not too good to clean toilets, no other motherfucker is either. I was a sewage treatment plant worker… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@ASD – I hitchhiked around a bit too, New England mostly. Such an adventure setting out with 20 bux in your pocket and 500 miles to cover and just sticking your thumb out. Sure, had a guy try to molest me once – he regretted it after I pulled my knife. But that’s all part it, learning how to “handle yourself”.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Ton – Isn’t that what a MGTOW is? I think you’ve nailed it.

Red Pill Definition of MGTOW: “Buttsore beta who just found out the world isn’t all sunshine and rainbows with unicorns pooping soft served ice cream.”

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

He he For a couple of months during one summer I lived on one bowl of cereal per meal with a small burger on Friday. I was quite hungry during this time. I never lived off of roadkill or out of trash cans. For a couple of months in college I had a buttered tortilla with sugar sprinkled on it for breakfast and for lunch a package of the very cheap ($0.29) chopped frozen broccoli with soy sauce…. and vodka, still had lots of vodka… Supplemented with the occasional happy hour buffet spread ($3 all you can drink plus buffet)… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Naw I am not anti mgtow. I know a fair number of men who have walked from main stream life without all the online mgtow melodrama

Man I want to get my businesses established so I can go back to saddle tramping around. Dying to do the run Key West to Dead Horse run. Can’t pack lite on that one but what the hell

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Ton – Really? MGTOW is broad but in general I don’t buy their “i’m just disconnecting from women” as an affirmative thing for them. For me it’s giving up on winning the sexual game. Hence i find it anti-masculine. It’s like they are making a virtue of their weakness, of their surrender, of their give-up. I don’t respect it, as much as I might understand it.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

What’s the difference between a Ranger and a mule? Mules are smart enough to know when to quit

The Army likes to starve you for protracted periods of time when trying to ensure you’re to stupid to give up. My experience with contemplating a roadkill supper was during one of those proving my stupidly bouts. Decided it wasn’t fresh enough and didn’t need the shits on top of everything else

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

how does MGTOW differ from having a mental point of origin (MPO) for yourself? unless you physically isolate yourself from women it seems like putting yourself first would be a good first step to drawing them to you, based on my understanding of RP

SFC Ton
5 years ago

When a man has enough he’s and enough. So they spend time doing what brings them joy.

You can do that like a whiny bitch or like a boss.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ dr zipper

Having sex with women fits nicely in a man’s mpo.

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

Meteing out masculine-type responsibility and independence (IMO includes cooking, keeping one’s billet square, grooming for success, too) changes throughout boyhood, and can be accomplished much earlier than the cultural norm. Riflery, pistolry, basic vehicle knowledge and home repair, athleticism and physical fitness, critical thinking re: politics and social cultural standards, all can begin around 6-7 y.o. It’s heavy lifting, but it’s my burden of performance and has required me to retroactively learn a lot. By the time boys are 13, they’ll have the basics of self-defense, objective reason, and the clarity of Truth to start dealing with the vagaries and… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“how does MGTOW differ from having a mental point of origin (MPO) for yourself?”

It adds the maxim, “When faced with options, choose the one that leaves the most options open.”

Scribbler defines it differently.

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Chump No More
Chump No More
5 years ago

@kfg

The interview of Dr Jordan Peterson is fantastic. Thanks for linking. I’m bookmarking because reading it through once was not enough.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

lol I was speaking of Dead Horse AK

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

EhIntellect

This book and others helped my boys comprehend what they’re capable of if allowed and they accept the freedom to exercise their agency. Yeah, it was a book…but anyways.

Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe c. 1719 is fantastic for this purpose as well for boys who have learned to read… say 6/7 or so. some of language is archaic. When my son was younger we read it together every night.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@scrib @ASD – I hitchhiked around a bit too, New England mostly. Such an adventure setting out with 20 bux in your pocket and 500 miles to cover and just sticking your thumb out. Sure, had a guy try to molest me once – he regretted it after I pulled my knife. But that’s all part it, learning how to “handle yourself”. Cool adventure story…way to handle yourself…builds confidence! I hitched up to Virginia Beach…no men hit on me while I hitched…in an airport when I was waiting for a free flight, a man put his hand on my knee… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Crusoe (the family name corrupted from the German name “Kreutznaer”) sets sail from the Queen’s Dock in Hull on a sea voyage in August 1651, against the wishes of his parents, who want him to pursue a career, possibly in law. After a tumultuous journey where his ship is wrecked in a storm, his lust for the sea remains so strong that he sets out to sea again. This journey, too, ends in disaster, as the ship is taken over by Salé pirates (the Salé Rovers) and Crusoe is enslaved by a Moor. Two years later, he escapes in a… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . .Dead Horse AK . . .”

I’d probably want to take the above bike for that run, but a place called Dead Horse which you get to by going around Oh Shit Corner is a bit of a temptation.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Legit

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@EhIntellect – You’re doing similar things as I do with my 10yo son. We’ve disassembled small ICE engines together with me explaining as we go. I make him do the wrenching on his dirtbike. Whenever we have some mechanical thing to throw away, I’ll first make him take it apart and harvest the hardware (nuts, bolts, etc). We’ll deconstruct advertising, marketing and persuasion techniques together so he can recognize when being influenced covertly. I’ve explained to him why the girl in his class tries to get him to carry her books, sharpen her pencil, etc. I say to him explicitly:… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Last comment on MGTOW. One doesn’t “opt out” of the sexual marketplace. You can’t. You can only win or lose. Men never stop wanting to fuck. It’s not like choosing to live someplace else or to homestead or whatever. It’s to deny a fundamental impulse that is a big part of what makes us male. And remember I’m a 54yo guy who’s a bit worn out and has every reason to go MGTOW. I tried it, and it made me hate myself. It’s been often said here, “T-Rex doesn’t want to eat, he wants to hunt.” or something like that.… Read more »

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
5 years ago

@ scribblerg

It’s like the well known actors saying
” you don’t retire from Hollywood, hollywood retires you”.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Let’s not have the definition argument – MGTOW means eschewing women and sex. If that isn’t what you mean by MGTOW, then MGTOW is meaningless. One does not need to walk away from women to cut your own path in life, and many men do so while banging hotties left and right. In fact, being outside the norm can be a signal of high value and often generates sexual interest in women. MGTOW should be more desired by women, right? I mean, they don’t lower their value by begging/chasing, and they are so focused on developing themselves as men, right?… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@scrib – ” MGTOW means eschewing women and sex” oh so that’s the distinction, thanks “Take a good look at who’s doing real MGTOW….” I can’t really think of anyone I know that made some conscious decision to shun women, at least none that told me or acts that way. Is there anyone in the public eye to give an example? Is it fair to disregard their other merits and abilities? I’m sure I have many shortcomings in one context that someone could view as making me unworthy in other areas, shit, nobody’s perfect. And if the majority of men… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

Just to clarify, I know you didn’t state that non-RP men are unworthy. Let me rephrase: “Does their decision on how to handle women take away from of their other qualities to the extent that you suggest?”

Chump No More
Chump No More
5 years ago

@scrib
“Last comment on MGTOW. One doesn’t “opt out” of the sexual marketplace. You can’t. You can only win or lose.”

Sound like Thermodynamics… “There is a game, you can’t change the rules, and you don’t get to opt out.”

PUAs try to change the rules and MGTOWs try to opt out.

And what are the rules you might ask? Along with mindset & externalization, you must have real, actual value.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ AR

I’m going to read the Japan article, but even before I do I just wanna exclaim: Wtf happened to a culture that produced these guys?

http://img12.deviantart.net/0471/i/2004/221/f/8/samurai_statue.jpg

Now produces these guys…

http://fashiongens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/japanese-style-clothing-men.jpg

Who’d a thunk it?

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

scribblerg
https://soundcloud.com/mahdy/01-tool-vicarious-h8me
Just sayin’…

constrainedlocus
5 years ago

Your mentioning of “favorable” masculine attributes that benefit the feminine primary social order versus “toxic masculine” attributes that offend it, a great example her of how the scientific discipline of psychology is pathologizing men: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/11/22/sexist-men-have-psychological-problems/?utm_term=.5e97e489ed4b The Journal of Counseling Psychology identified 11 “traditionally masculine” norms: – desire to win – need for emotional control – risk-taking – violence – dominance – sexual promiscuity or playboy behavior – self-reliance – primacy of work – power over women – disdain for homosexuality – pursuit of status “the men who stuck more strongly to these norms were more likely to experience problems such… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

“All young men require an official introduction to the intuitive, psychic, and mysterious darkness of their inner beings. They need to learn how to surrender, how to listen closely to an inner voice, how to clarify their values, how to pray, how to seek vision, and how to prophesy. All young men must ask themselves such questions as: “To whom do I pray?” “Who are my sacred ancestors?” “What is my life story?” “Why was I born?” “Why will I die?” “Who are the true heroes and teachers of my life?” “What gifts have I been blessed with?” “Who are… Read more »

frank632
5 years ago

Women want men to tell them what to do. Never shall I be in any relationship with any woman where it is not abundantly clear that I am the boss and I make the rules. Why? Because it works. Notice something. Notice how loyal and sexually faithful women are to men who are abusive and controlling. Notice how they’ll crawl through broken glass to “make it work” with these men. Notice how they spend years of their prime chasing these men. Notice how no sex act is too degrading for them to perform in order to make him happy. I… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

The Four Shields, Solo Time in Nature, Nature as Teacher, and Storytelling and Mirroring.
http://schooloflostborders.org/global

http://schooloflostborders.org/term/practice-living-and-dying

http://schooloflostborders.org/term/beyond-our-borders

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

frankie my man, you sure know how to make an entrance

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

” Kick in the door, wavin’ my 44, all you heard was poppa don’t hit me no more..”\

– Biggie Smalls

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Big Bank Frank

I kind of agree with the spirit of what you are communicating for the most part, But I submit that a man doesn’t have to be ” abusive ” to get the desired effect with a woman.

Most will submit to domination, and even enjoy this, but it can be accomplished without going overboard. If you happen upon a chick that actually enjoys or tolerates getting truly physically injured, she’s got some serious issues.

Not Born This Morning
5 years ago

“You need a point at which you set yourself apart from Blue Pill men and a feminine-primary social order.” Great post, really liked it. And (in my experience) I think it is necessary for a man to define that point so he can keep it as a reference to remember who and what he really is, especially today. Today all such traditional rights of passage have been exterminated from the main culture, so it is imperative a man defines himself in this way and, probably more importantly, older men who understand encourage younger men. Any tradition defining male right of… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

The destruction of their homeland via the US army air Corp and then liberalism forced onto them by the usa destroyed their culture

And masculinity in the West has also fallen, thanks to liberalism destroying traditional concepts culture

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Ton

” The destruction of their homeland via the US army air Corp and then liberalism forced onto them by the usa destroyed their culture

And masculinity in the West has also fallen, thanks to liberalism destroying traditional concepts culture ”

Yep. Sounds bout right.

And the cure for it all is something basically as simple as looking backward for an answer.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

Can never go back my man

I don’t have any decent answers but I know that much

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Frank…. No no no…. [and I don’t really care about the hitting] This is how the pimp gets and keeps hand… Since the pimp knows that his hos live in constant pain, he finds the ho’s pain point and offers a solution, he takes her away from the pain. He takes her places that she’s never been, places that don’t resemble the nightmare called her life. This is why a pimp takes a turnout away from her family. Not only does it take her old painful life away but it reinforces her dependence on him, in her new life he… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

For it is the duty of an astronomer to compose the history of the celestial motions through careful and expert study. Nicolaus Copernicus

The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
We cannot seem to reach an end crippling our communication.
https://soundcloud.com/feign-fof/tool-schism
https://books.google.com/books/about/Retrieving_Political_Emotion.html?id=olIMIUQ1a0gC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false
“This man has conquered the world! What have you done?”
The philosopher replied without an instant’s hesitation, “I have conquered the need to conquer the world.”
― Steven Pressfield, The Virtues of War: A Novel of Alexander the Great
http://www.stevenpressfield.com/the-virtues-of-war/

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“And these concepts, degrading and dignity…. these are dog concepts not cat concepts…” There are rights of passage of men. And most of them involved a concept of teaching a young boy or man he is stronger. He lacks weakness. TON’s four bullet points are analogous to strength, courage, mastery and honor ( among men). Blaximus and Sentient are pointing to the fact that abuse is not at all the same as dominance or leading women. Abuse is weakness for a leading man, that certainly can work for a woman of low self esteem. ( You should want nothing to… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

The Lunch Pail Manifesto We must find the work that brings our lives meaning. We must strive to make our work purposeful, truthful, and authentic, a pure offering to our Muse and fellow human beings. We must wage a lifelong war with Resistance and accept that instant gratification is an oxymoron. We must not speak of our work with false modesty or braggadocio. We must not debase our work for short term gain nor elevate it above its rightful station to inflate our ego. We must not covet the fruits of our work, or the fruits of others’ work. We… Read more »

mersonia
5 years ago

All the mental masturbation…

comment image

Come back Ya save us

Eric
Eric
5 years ago

Good article. I think it takes great confidence to realize you are your own best point of mental origin. And when you do realize the truth of it despite societal influences, and see how it makes you the de facto leader of your own family (at the very least), you are certainly a man. I am spending a lot of time with my boys, talking to them about the positive attributes of being a man, telling them they are good young “men,” boxing with them, working out with them, reading masculine books with them, talking to the about the nature… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

ok mersonia, you got the floor, entertain us

stuffinbox
5 years ago

@Rugby

From this
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDM6v1XhWEg&w=560&h=315%5D

To this

v

stuffinbox
5 years ago
stuffinbox
5 years ago
hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@mersonia

All the mental masturbation…

Come back Ya save us

lol.

Kaminsky
Kaminsky
5 years ago

How many truly celibate MGTOW’s are there? How many have you all really encountered? Pulling an Aaron Clarey (and mouthing off as if you’ve been creeping around outside thousands of basement windows to read a sweeping and detailed read on MGTOWs) is bullshit. Clickbait bullshit. There is a dude named “Tim” in the manosphere who makes great posts who I think is the ONLY true MGTOW I’ve encountered. I might even be wrong about that. He’s never even come out and said it entirely and he is still the only one I can think of. There are way more “I’m… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago

stuffinbox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz7XK847zZc
Off to reality in rest.

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
5 years ago

@Blax

“I’m going to read the Japan article, but even before I do I just wanna exclaim: Wtf happened to a culture that produced these guys?”

We dropped two nukes on them, and made their God-Emperor admit he isn’t divine.

These people thought they’d conquer the world. We showed THEM, didn’t we? We made them our bitch. They’re still glowing. Their children are still being born with fucked up teeth.

Winners and Losers. Rama Rama.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

This post just jogged a memory from my brain of what I consider a right of passage my father gave me. I was around 8-10 in the car with my father. We come to a busy street where we have to make a left turn. He says, “I’ll look this way; you let me know when your way is clear and I’m gonna go. Don’t mess up or you’ll kill us cause I ain’t looking your way.” I thought he was kidding at first, but he turned his head out toward his window and would say, “My way’s clear. Can… Read more »

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

Newlyaloof

I’ve got similar memories, along with: dad works the clutch, I get to shift. Lots of fun on the windy backroads.

SFC Ton
5 years ago

what do you think is mental masturbation here?

Everything not posted by YaReally? Which is odd…. Given the mental masturbation marathons generated around some of his topics

theasdgamer
5 years ago

“Come back Ya save us” = IOI aimed at YaReally

8==========D

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Rollo and Ton

Cosign Ton. I stopped responding to mersonia because he lends nothing to any conversation here other than as a half asses defender of Ya.

Phantom commenter, occasional troll. Insignificant stranger.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

I bet YaReally is slightly embarrassed and maybe more than a little uncomfortable about the YCS displays of love (YaReally Cocksucking Squad). He might need to do the #nohomo to fend them off.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

…. situational alpha widow.

OK. No more Snark from me. Back to a nice discussion.

Ryan Stroeder
Ryan Stroeder
5 years ago

Thank you so much! I’ve been a huge fan since year 1 and own all your books, with many others bought as gifts. I was hoping you would cover best practices for finances for men who want children. Do we allow for two completely seperate entities financially, with negotiation for common purchases? Is one account a good idea due to risk exposure? Really hoping you’ll cover this as it pertains to leading a family in a redpill way. Ryan On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:49 PM, The Rational Male wrote: > Rollo Tomassi posted: ” In the past I’ve… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Ryan I was hoping you would cover best practices for finances for men who want children. Do we allow for two completely seperate entities financially, with negotiation for common purchases? Is one account a good idea due to risk exposure? Ryan, best practice is you control the finances. You set up the accounts you need and you give her an allocated amount if she can be trusted to spend it wisely. You take away if she doesn’t. You pay the majority of bills (my wife has an allowance and she pays for groceries and incidental items out of that. 90%… Read more »

newlyaloof
5 years ago

Come on fellas. My marriage ain’t perfect right now by far, but I was a lost soul with no hope before I found Chateau, Rollo, and commenters Sentient and YaReally. A person may hear the same words 100 times from different people in different ways, but not until these four people did it “just click” for me to be able to see the Matrix. The first comments I ever read from YaReally over at Chateau really pissed me off, but something about them caused me stick around. I had given up on “Game” because upon first glance, it just appeared… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Newlyaloof

wazzup Newly…

Look, the kitchen is hot. But that is where the coffee is. I’m enjoying my cup and raise one to those who will join.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Newly

Your post coming on the Rites of Passage thread is noted… no irony.

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Sentient

newlyaloof

No complaints just help from exposure. The thing about other men is they can call you on your behavior if you ask for observations you may not be aware of or habits you do. For example ways to communicate that don’t involve complaining or criticizing condemning. Just living within yourself wholeheartedly. Welcome aboard

cattaro
cattaro
5 years ago

One question not conected with on going dialog…I have a friend who was in situation to must cut one testis (tumor). He already have 2 kids, mixed alpha beta behavior, good shape…etc. But he told me that he got an analise with minimum chance to have kids again in his life. Is it a big atraction down to his wife and women in generaly.

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@Sentient, I understand men with rib each other and do what men do, but I think it passed that point just like us men know THE INSTANT when two dudes are play fighting/wrestling and then it all a sudden gets too serious. I still like the kitchen; just wish it felt more like a Friday and not a Monday in that joint more often. lol!

cattaro
cattaro
5 years ago

tumor (cancer)

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@rugby, I understand man. Have we not developed a sense of community here at TRM? I have bonded with its members. I am sad to see them splinter. This is all it boils down to. But I’ll move on easily enough. In fact, I think it’s best that I not mention this issue any longer.

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  newlyaloof

Newlyaloof I read a bit about that. I suppose it’s a huge reason to only speak about myself with any assumptions an anyone else. But egos clash with topics that some find sincer and personal and others find less so. Not sure exactly what to do about it. I read the humor sometimes at others I get thrown off with no context. Doing stuff such as this in person is always more useful. Not many can however. One solution that’s vague and more or less none effective is to only post relevant things. But than who’s to say what’s relevant?… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Newlyaloof I think it is cool you brought it up and I appreciate your concern about the splintering. You are totally right about arguing like women. (Pushing the other side of the debate to get emotional.) https://illimitablemen.com/2014/03/09/how-women-argue/ Good point, Rugby: “For example ways to communicate that don’t involve complaining or criticizing condemning.” (I also have no complaints, just help from the exposure.) So, once again, Umm, Sorry? from me. I promise to try harder on my side of the aisle and don’t mind being called out with appropriate criticism by another man. I promise to try to not act like… Read more »

SFC Ton
5 years ago

situational alpha widow.

LOL

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

“Iron Rule of Tomassi #9 Never Self-Deprecate under any circumstance. This is a Kiss of Death that you self-initiate and is the antithesis of the Prize Mentality. Once you’ve accepted yourself and presented yourself as a “complete douche” there’s no going back to confidence with a woman. Never appeal to a woman’s sympathies. Her sympathies are given by her own volition, never when they are begged for – women despise the obligation of sympathy. Nothing kills arousal like pity. Even if you don’t seriously consider yourself pathetic, it never serves your best interest to paint yourself as pathetic. Self-Depreciation is… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Softek

Softek
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4hQuXX7OOoI
Performance
Complimentary performance
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HULj4OyA73g
No self deprecation
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmbryEthan/status/365674005623078914
“Used to verbally beat the shit out of myself. I HATED myself. To death. For the longest time. And when I realized it wasn’t healthy I put a LOT of conscious effort on a daily basis into stopping the negative self-talk.”
Groups help to put your perspective and version of yourself in check.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@Blax OK. No more Snark from me. Back to a nice discussion. I hate it when boys pick up their marbles and go home. I was so enjoying the game. 🙂 @newly None of this is serious on my part…think of it as a rite of passage…I wasn’t offended more than a minute or two by YaReally’s comments about OMGs, but I REALLY didn’t like his manipulation of the younger men. Notice that scrib and I are friendly acquaintances now…he has fixed some of his shit and I’m very happy for him…I always wished him the best and hoped for… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@Softek

It just flew out of my mouth. It was automatic.

But you recognized it immediately. Yeah, that shit can be scary when you fuck up automatically. So you still have some work to do…big deal. You’ve made some progress. Until you let go of mama, your progress will be limited, which is what everybody has been telling you. It’s scary to let go.

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

@Rollo Speaking of bots, is rugby one? It seems like all of his posts I’ve seen are linking to shit, and maybe some random quotes. I’ve seen several posts of his in the field reports section that are just short form links with absolutely no context provided whatsoever… Sometimes posted back-to-back. @Scrib I think your definition is far too narrow. The last time I checked in on the YouTube MGTOW community, their definition, as the lowest common denominator, was men who categorically refuse marriage. Barbarossa, a fairly well known and respected MGTOW, does not eschew sex with women. He is,… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Pellaeon

Pellaeon Not a bot just a curious storyteller. The links tend to be on field reports from an open source forum called the casual sex project. Which is why I post them their. It’s time field data. Other links or just things I think about when deep aspects of masculine culture is on clash with social order and post of observations about how society works. Math for example comes up when attempting to draw experience into relatiability. Or films and sounds expression the range of mate ortaments and how it resonates with human emotion and developement. I’m a kinetic learner… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

“These are all fear-based behaviors used to distract others” Been in enough morbidity and mortality reviews to enjoy non-personal nature of the heated discussions here, even if they were meant to shake my mettle. Most practitioners who go more heat/less light defensiveness and try to disregard possible alternatives end up compounding the criticism, damages of review. “Patient care is ultimately a team effort, I, too, am part of that team.” has helped me through some unfortunate M&M’s. No cagey tactics, just a genuine desire to get to a truthful result and leave with my pride intact. No different here. P.S.… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

“These are all fear-based behaviors used to distract others” Been in enough morbidity and mortality reviews to enjoy non-personal nature of the heated discussions here, even if they were meant to shake my mettle. Most practitioners who go more heat/less light defensiveness and try to disregard possible alternatives end up compounding the criticism, damages of review. “Patient care is ultimately a team effort, I, too, am part of that team.” has helped me through some unfortunate M&M’s. No cagey tactics, just a genuine desire to get to a truthful result and leave with my pride intact. No different here. P.S.… Read more »

othergrain
othergrain
5 years ago

Yet you’re the one been talking about sucking dick for days now ASD 😉 Softek Good example of self-depreciation from a bad, low self esteem, mindset. Using it to reinforce already destructive beliefs about yourself: “I spilled coffee all over my keyboard. See! I *am* a loser!” But it can also be used to show a security in something that’s technically a fault like height or weight. Even then, it’s a fine line, I think RDJ or Hank Moody have some good examples, at work rn so can’t search for them. As far as the Iron Rule goes, if you… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  othergrain

Pellaeon
Context Dalrock
http://wp.me/pXWyH-aoD

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ asd I’m not out Gaming girls, and this was the first time in a while, which is part of why I think this happened. I’ve been feeling pretty good about myself overall, but auto-pilot behaviors come out in Game-specific contexts. Exactly like Rollo described: self-deprecation is misguided “Game” by Betas/Blue Pill guys, where they think that putting themselves down is attractive. I no longer believe that AT ALL, but I have past behaviors that I never conditioned out of myself. Because I’m not imprinting new behaviors. It’s just like in my “business” (hard to call it that with the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“But it can also be used to show a security in something that’s technically a fault like height or weight.”

I’m not a big guy. Only average height and what cyclists refer to as either an “elf” or a “starving European weasel.”

Which is cool, because it means most guys can’t try to borrow my vintage Italian sports cars.

Fred Flange, Xisself
Fred Flange, Xisself
5 years ago

@Softek For future use, it’s all about the MPO. This is maybe not Game 101, perhaps Game 102. A self deprecating joke is proper as a sidestep to a shit test, which then gives you license to push back with a neg or zinger of your own. All pro comedians do this. Alternate: do zingers first, then the self-deprecating gag to convey you’re not a total insecure whiner, you can zing yourself (and own it) before the gal or someone else does. E.G., You could say “I’m a loser” in an outrageous Ice Cube-gangsta style that gets a laugh, meaning… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

I am trying to relate this to the OP too, which I think my story does. I’m a good example of what happens when men don’t grow up with strong role models and men LEADING a “Rite of Passage.” The big key to Rites of Passage with men are that they are LED. Yeah, men can go through solitary journeys, but it’s disconnected from the roots: validation, encouragement, discipline, and guidance *from other men.* TRM is the best place I’ve found for this, and is doing the best job I can expect to make up for what I’m lacking in… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ Fred Flange My problem was I THOUGHT I was using it in a comedic way. I only realized after the words came out of my mouth that it came off as insecure even though I said it in a “confident” or nonchalant tone. I THOUGHT it was a zinger in my head, but was just something an insecure, low self esteem guy would say. At least for the time being, I feel like I’m a little too spergy to implement that kind of Game 102 with self-deprecation…might be such a huge issue with me that I’d be better off… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“The big key to Rites of Passage with men are that they are LED.” You are trained for the rite. The rite you undertake alone (although not necessarily in isolation as in walkabout). You train your martial art with your instructor and in groups. You undertake your belt test alone; as in no aid. “No culture I’m aware of has these rituals at 27 or 30 or 40 years old . . .” There been discussed here many small “rites of passage,” which are perfectly valid and might occur at various ages, but the idea of “rite of passage” that’s… Read more »

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

@Rollo well, if Rugby is a bot he’s makes for a damn convincing human since I had lunch with him in Vegas at the MiD conference about a year ago. Haha, yeah I’d say that’s a good Turing test. @Rugby Not a bot just a curious storyteller. The links tend to be on field reports from an open source forum called the casual sex project. Which is why I post them their. Gotcha. Yeah I would find it helpful if you continued to add context around the links like you did here: Pellaeon Context Dalrock http://wp.me/pXWyH-aoD I know someone else… Read more »

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

@rugby11: “Lunch with a convincing bot” — a scene from BladeRunner?

Your Tool/Perfect Circle/Puscifier links have made a good soundtrack for work this week.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@ Softek “I do have “When I Say No I Feel Guilty” and should refer to that more regularly.” You’re damn right Softek. There is a big difference between being assertive and being self deprecating. You need to work on assertiveness. The whole Rite of Passage original post is about assertiveness (of masculinity) which is mostly Mental Point of Origin and that is the sine qua non of Assertiveness. Assertiveness is the quality of being self-assured and confident without being aggressive. It can’t be had at the same time as anxiety. The way to lessen anxiety (your latest field blunder… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“The whole Rite of Passage original post is about assertiveness (of masculinity) which is mostly Mental Point of Origin and that is the sine qua non of Assertiveness.”

The whole upshot of the rite of passage is that before you have passed it, when the men meet in council you are shooed away.

After you have passed it you have the right to sit in council and say your piece.

Sisyphus
Sisyphus
5 years ago

I wish I had had a way to have my boys go through some rite of passage when they were growing up. I didn’t know then that they needed one but I tried to instill a sense of manhood anyway (fishing, camping, lifting, trail running, fixing stuff, etc.) in them once I was red pill but I think it was too late into adolescence. As a father, I have watched my two boys go off into the world in very different ways; one embraced the red pill and the other is totally fem-centric. They were raised into adolescence while I… Read more »

dr zipper
dr zipper
5 years ago

@softek – “When I Say No I Feel Guilty”

Back in the early ’90s this is the one that laid the groundwork for me to start figuring shit out. It will shine a light to help you get out of the darkness.

I hope it helps you as much as it did me.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ cattaro ” One question not conected with on going dialog…I have a friend who was in situation to must cut one testis (tumor). He already have 2 kids, mixed alpha beta behavior, good shape…etc. But he told me that he got an analise with minimum chance to have kids again in his life. Is it a big atraction down to his wife and women in generaly.” This will be a highly individualized circumstance of course, but If I had to wager, I’d say that a man that has 2 kids already shouldn’t really have issues with not having more,… Read more »

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