Case Study – Mitch’s Purple Pill

mitch

This week we had an interesting situation arise in the comment threads. A new(?) reader, Mitch, dropped in to recount his affair with a Ukrainian woman he’d become enamored with, emphasis mine:

I’d like to encourage men who still want a good wife to look East. As in, Russia, Ukraine and other former USSR counties. I cannot begin to tell you how encouraged and revitalized I am by this woman I met – and by most of the women I met and interacted with before I found “the One.

Full stop. Whenever a man even casually mentions a woman as ‘the ONE‘ you know he’s still clinging to his Blue Pill, feminine-primary conditioning. This is your first signal of a man’s mindset and is a glaring Beta Tell.

Next Mitch moves on to qualify the object of his, still unmet, ONEitis:

The biggest difference between these women and western women are three things: 1) They have a strong desire to find “their Right Man”. Educated, smart, attractive women with careers find life is not meaningful without husband and family. 2) What they require from a man is reliability, respectfulness and willingness to provide for a family. They want to be treated respectfully and well, but they definitely want to be treated like a woman. 3) They have no ambivalence whatsoever about being appealing to their man.

They celebrate this about themselves, their femininity and sex appeal. These women are genuine, direct, and have no time for games and are generally not interested (but are quite aware of) western feminism. Interestingly, during Soviet times women were “emancipated” from the homes and out into the factory and collectives, and the government propaganda machine even downplayed and tried to discourage marriage. So these women really know what all this means, and since the collapse of the USSR, (which has been a mixed bag for them in many ways) they have enthusiastically embraced traditional gender and marriage relationships. In fact, my woman very explicitly told me early on that she had no interest in an egalitarian relationship – and she has been very clear about what she wants and expects from me, and I couldn’t be more delighted.
(I’ve spent a week with her in person, talk on Skype a couple times a day, am meeting her in Italy in 7 weeks, after which she comes back here, hopefully for good. Oh, and she’s gorgeous and awesome in a million different ways. Wish me luck…. )

Sounds like a Blue Pill dream come true, right? I haven’t done a case study in some time so I’m going to take Mitch’s situation here and riff on it a bit. I really think it’s good to review certain fundamentals for the sake of men who are new to my work, but also for Red Pill men to understand the Blue Pill way of thinking to better help men like Mitch to unplug.

In The Purple Pill I outlined the process by which previously Red Pill men degrade themselves back into their Blue Pill mindsets. Most do this in the same fashion as someone like Tucker Max. They renounce their Red Pill behaviors and, for the most part, make attempts to compartmentalize the harsh truths they know women would rather they didn’t know or expose to other men. Guys of this Purple Pill stripe still cling (or return to clinging) to their old Blue Pill idealism in the hopes that the goals their old conditioning taught them was still possible.

This Purple Pill man still has had some exposure to, and practice with, a Red Pill awareness. The difference is that due to some life circumstance (unplanned or “accidental” pregnancy) or some part of his Beta self he was unable to disconnect from (the soul mate myth) in his Red Pill awareness.

However, Mitch represents another type of Purple Pill man. This is the guy who’s become Red Pill aware, but believes he can make his Blue Pill idealism work in a Red Pill context from the outset of his partial unplugging. As a result, there’s a certain degree of affirmation seeking men of this stripe look for from other men in Red Pill forums. That affirmation is entirely based in the false hope that he can use Red Pill truths to achieve Blue Pill goals. Thus, he looks for affirmation in this feminine-primary idealism without realizing he’s really just asking Red Pill men for their permission to persist in his Blue Pill hope while calling it Red Pill for himself.

Mitch goes on over several comments in an effort to get this permission to define his ONEitis as a Red Pill goal by qualifying her in every Blue Pill way imaginable. Needless to say the stink of Blue Pill conditioning wasn’t hard for my forum members to identify. He insists he’s read my work well enough to be considered Red Pill aware, but his actions and attitudes with this woman tell a much different story.

When called out on this fact we get the obligatory, “Lol…you guys can go fuck yourselves..

Lol…you guys can go fuck yourselves. I appreciate where ya’ll are coming from, though. Trying to save me from myself. And i appreciate how naive my post must sound to a bunch of hard core red pillers like yourselves. However, I am not nearly as inexperienced with women and LTR’s as ya’ll assume. I have learned a lot from red pill in general and this site in particular – it’s very insightful and helpful, and I’ve adjusted my attitude and posture toward women because of it. At the same time, though, it strikes me that many of you are taking on red pill ideas as a kind of ideology, and that’s its own kind of danger. The absolute certainty that ya’ll think you know all you need to know about me and my woman and my relationship from that very brief post is what I mean. As if red-pill theory, or whatever it is, completely and concisely explains the total dynamic between a man and woman. Red pill explains a lot of things really well, but certainly not the totality of the mystery that is between a man a woman in a marriage. If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then I feel sorry for you. Red pill helps me tremendously in seeing more clearly what is going on. I totally get that I am a beta provider for her, that a large part of my appeal is what I can provide, and I get that she is turned on by alpha traits. Both of these things can coexist in the same person. Understanding this and what’s behind it makes me feel less anxious and insecure about that, because I’m more clear about what to do.

Also, being a beta provider does not make me a bitch. Providing for my woman and family is a large part of what makes me a man, and I derive great satisfaction and pride in doing so.
Also, I am not in any way “settling” for a 44 yo woman. Younger women were/are available to me, but that is not what i choose.

There’s a lot more to life than fucks and bucks, but if that’s all it is for you, then this is the type of woman you will attract. In a relationship, what you get is what you are. If I can’t find a way to live with an open heart, then I don’t know what the fucking point is. But, to each his own.

I don’t get mad with responses like this. It’s really all part of men’s unplugging. I’ve said it a million times, unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work. Understand this now if you ever hope to aid a guy in coming to the Red Pill, there will always be a lot of anger, denial and frustration that comes from the disillusionment of breaking a man’s ego-investment in a Blue Pill mindset that he’s been conditioned to for the better part of his lifetime.

I found Mitch’s story engaging because it so faithfully follows the progression of rationales Purple Pill men will use in order to hold fast to their old, comfortable mindset. Thus, you see the binary extremes of anything that contradicts those old investments:

The absolute certainty that ya’ll think you know all you need to know about me and my woman and my relationship from that very brief post is what I mean. As if red-pill theory, or whatever it is, completely and concisely explains the total dynamic between a man and woman.

Here we see the attempt to cast doubt, but also a plea for confirmation of theory. He wants to believe that because there are no hard-fast conclusions of the uncomfortable aspects of the Red Pill that the possibility exists that his Blue Pill hopes may still be valid.

Red pill explains a lot of things really well, but certainly not the totality of the mystery that is between a man a woman in a marriage. If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then I feel sorry for you.

Disqualification, but wrapped in the magical romantic language of Blue Pill idealism. Add a bit of pseudo-heartfelt pity for the men who wont reaffirm his idealisms.

Red pill helps me tremendously in seeing more clearly what is going on. I totally get that I am a beta provider for her, that a large part of my appeal is what I can provide, and I get that she is turned on by alpha traits. Both of these things can coexist in the same person. Understanding this and what’s behind it makes me feel less anxious and insecure about that, because I’m more clear about what to do.

Later on in the comments, Mitch tries to reassure me he’s thoroughly read my essays, but it’s obvious he hasn’t read The Myth of the Good Guy after making this comment. Most of his remaining comments are variations of this, to which he’s entirely oblivious of how apparent his Blue Pill nature is to the forum.

Feel free to read through the conversations, but they all came to a head in his most recent admission here:

 

Guys, thanks for sticking with me.

I sent her a text this morning that basically said I am going to fuck you in Italy. I love you, and this is what’s going down. We’ve had a number of conversations about sex before, about what didn’t happen in Odessa, etc. But I never pushed too hard. She says can we talk. So I skype her. And we go round and round about this. I’m staying calm, even sweet. But firm. The solipsism is off the charts – of course I’d seen this every time we argue, but eh, she’s a woman, what else is new? I just keep gently and firmly sticking to the topic, and she’s doing all she can to change it. Lashing out at me, saying I’m mentally ill, she thought I was different than other men, I’m trying to rape her, etc. Saying I’ve blown our relationship, she has all what I want, but I’m blowing it, good bye. On and on. Jesus Christ.

I’m now strongly suspecting bpd. These women are a fucking magnet for me. I did have interactions with very normal, genuine nice women over there – and tended to be religious – one very nice woman that I enjoyed talking to was very upfront from the beginning that she’s strong Catholic and will not have sex before marriage. I respect that completely. That didn’t even chase me off. It’s just that this other woman was so much more compelling. If she is bpd, she is the third experience I’ve had with this type. They are like catnip to me. Now that I see it, I’m definitely not going down that road with her because I’m all too aware of where it inevitably leads. Good. But, still..fuck!

Mitch, you’re not going to like what I’m about to type here for you, but just know that it’s a necessary kick in the ass and I’m in no way trying to flame you. As I mentioned in my last comment to you, you really need to read all of the links in my Year One collection.

I’m going to pick apart your latest report about this girl you ‘love’ and I think you should really give yourself some time to consider what you think has been your half-measure unplugging.

I sent her a text this morning that basically said I am going to fuck you in Italy. I love you, and this is what’s going down.We’ve had a number of conversations about sex before, about what didn’t happen in Odessa, etc. But I never pushed too hard. She says can we talk.

Two things here; first, you are using texting as a Buffer. This is what I would expect from a teenager or someone with an adolescent social skill set. Texting you ‘love’ her and convincing yourself you do after no more than a week of in-person interaction is a major, jumbotron-scale signal that you are not only Beta and Blue Pill, but also you subscribe to a scarcity mentality. This is rule one.

Secondly, you cannot negotiate genuine desire. You having conversations about how you’re going to fuck her in Italy are evidence that you really have no clue how Game works. Your pre-sex talks about having sex are again a major signal of your Blue Pill headspace:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #3

Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. It’s sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way to fuck you. She will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, fuck the shit out of you and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife comes home early from work – women who want to fuck will find a way to fuck. The girl who tells you she needs to be comfortable and wants a relationship first is the same girl who fucked the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break just half an hour after meeting him.

Your conversations are all evidence that you buy into the ‘open communication’ Blue Pill narrative.

So I skype her. And we go round and round about this. I’m staying calm, even sweet. [Beta] But firm.[still thinking RP men will say that’s Alpha] The solipsism is off the charts – of course I’d seen this every time we argue, but eh, she’s a woman, what else is new?[attempt to confirm RP terms, and another plea for affirmation]

I just keep gently and firmly sticking to the topic, and she’s doing all she can to change it. Lashing out at me, saying I’m mentally ill, she thought I was different than other men, I’m trying to rape her, etc. Saying I’ve blown our relationship, she has all what I want, but I’m blowing it, good bye. On and on. Jesus Christ.

All this woman is doing is confirming your status as a Beta for her. Likely she thought you’d be an easy mark, but your overt insistence on preplanned, negotiated and scheduled sex has made her lose interest in you even as a Beta provider.

I’m now strongly suspecting bpd. These women are a fucking magnet for me. I did have interactions with very normal, genuine nice women over there – and tended to be religious – one very nice woman that I enjoyed talking to was very upfront from the beginning that she’s strong Catholic and will not have sex before marriage. I respect that completely.

This woman is not suffering from BPD, she’s responding how most women would when they have a man’s Beta status overtly confirmed for them. You believe these ‘types’ of women are drawn to you when in fact you have the same effect on every woman when you overtly demonstrate your lower value to them by sticking to your Beta Game while thinking it’s some how the correct, Red Pill way of dealing with women.

The only reason you believe you respect a Catholic woman is because you have no choice but to respect her because she reaffirms your Blue Pill nature, but still wont fuck you.

I’m going to invite the commenters to address Mitch’s situation in the comment thread, but I’ll start here by saying you really need to thoroughly read through my posts (or books if you prefer). You are in no way ‘woke’ to a Red Pill awareness Mitch. For as much as you believe you are, your behaviors, your mindset, all point to a guy who’s read some Red Pill ideas, but can’t disconnect from his Blue Pill hopes and attitudes.

You’re trying to force fit a Blue Pill hope into a Red Pill reality. This is why the last 3 women you’ve reported you’ve been involved with have been the same. It’s not them, it’s you.

Again, I didn’t write this post to flame you, but rather to let you serve as an example of how pervasive a Blue Pill mindset is, and how it retards a man’s social intelligence and his maturation.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

775 comments on “Case Study – Mitch’s Purple Pill

  1. @IAS

    I agree with the threshold thing, but I don’t understand why you and others much better versed in Red Pill would think that pLTRs don’t have Game benefits over marriage.

    it does for ‘just dating’…lol… but kids change everything… it’s not just a popular meme…lol…

    Seems like a very direct consequence of RP fundamentals that I listed already.
    I don’t think it is just me being a Red Pill rookie and missing something.

    the only thing you are ‘missing’ is that kids really do change everything…

    HOW that plays out doesn’t seem to have had the same amount of ‘field testing’ as pua/game has had… and it’s a relatively new concept to the ‘shere… = how to game yourself a family…lol… and we are off the edge of the map…

    but it’s NOT hopeless… besides that big dragon (the system) over there, we know EXACTLY what to do…lol…

    good luck!

  2. IAS

    “I agree with the threshold thing, but I don’t understand why you and others much better versed in Red Pill would think that pLTRs don’t have Game benefits over marriage. Seems like a very direct consequence of RP fundamentals that I listed already.”

    I’ve been thinking about that point for weeks now, because it didn’t seem to add up.

    Starting with dread, I think sentient just made some seriously good points:

    “Why? Because women think like women and they KNOW that if YOU are not around THEM some OTHER craft bitch MAY BE and how that can go down regardless of what you proclaim…

    Ever introduce your wife to a solid 9 22YO co worker you’ve been traveling the country with every other week for 6 months ? Dread? Triggered…. LOL But baby… nothing happened I SWEAR (and it’s true lol)!”

    Case in point: Rollo

    We may also be looking at dread from too logical a way (as men do) whereas we know women think based on feels…

    As he was saying, it wasn’t the ACT of him getting some side that triggered it, it was his changed MINDSET…which can be changed by different methods…

    Yareally was saying, if we take the attraction triggers we ALL agree on to the logical conclusion, a pLTR is the most attractive (extreme end of bell curve maybe). And I agree, but I don’t think that’s the whole deal. As HABD was telling Mitch, if it seems paradoxical, keep digging.

    I think the pLTR is the logical conclusion of AF. (Well, no LTR at all probably would be…) but having a kid requires some BB (why I don’t necessarily like the black/white distinction). married guys, what are your thoughts on the balance of AF/BB?

    Even looking at the attraction triggers from Mystery Method…not all of them are necessarily AF…protector of loved ones…I’d list them all but I’m on the train and don’t want to do that in my phone.

  3. @ IAS ( again )

    ” With that in mind, beyond YaReally which clearly thinks dread is harder if married, I think Rollo himself does agree that it is harder to create Dread if you are legally married (@Rollo please step in if I’m misrepresenting you).
    Certainly that is pretty much the consensus in the MRP reddit, that it is harder to dread.”

    warning: Humblebragging ahead

    Ok, I’ll use myself as an example to try to get some points about married dread.

    I go out with my wife quite often. I enjoy her company, and she enjoys mine. We have a pretty good time while out and about. But for some reason ( to my advantage ), quite a few women don’t seem to recognize that we are a couple. My wife is younger than I am numerically, but she looks quite a bit younger than me in comparison. Maybe that’s it…. I’m not sure and it’s not important to me.

    But wifey is greatly aware of women giving attention to me. She doesn’t always comment on what she’s seeing, but after 18+ years I know that she pays rapt attention.

    She has said as much, that a woman needs a man that other women want.

    I work to keep myself in good/decent shape. Admittedly, at 55 it’s starting to get a little harder, but I still put in the effort. I normally dress well enough to stand out from the crowd, but not to look ” try hard put together ‘.

    The cars that I like also attract attention from a lot of women. When wifey is in the passenger’s seat, she is aware of women watching the car drive down the street, or staring at it, and me, when the walk past in a crosswalk at a red light.

    She rarely ever makes a comment though.

    I go out often with my friends and I never get pushback, but after a night out I’ve noticed the sex takes place on que, even if I come in at 4am. And it’s damned passionate.

    The wife believes that a woman keeps her man by providing him what he needs and wants, and that a wife must stay on her toes to make sure he’s happy and satisfied. Once, my friends were going to a strip club in a dangerous area, and I declined the invite having an attempted carjacking foisted on me in that area, and having worked in a strip club for a number of years.

    Later that same evening while I was chilling watching sportscenter, wifey came into the livingroom wearing skimpy lingerie, put on music,climbed on the coffee table and stripped for me, including a lapdance.

    The next day a few of my friends wives were over my house, complaining how they didn’t like their husbands going to strip clubs. Then they asked my wife how does she ” control me so that I don’t go to places like that “. Lol.

    She was blunt ( as she’s known for being ). She told them something like : He is a grown man and he does what he wants to. I don’t control him. If I felt I had to control him, I’d have stayed single. He chose, on his own, for his own reasons, not to go. So I showed him that there’s nothing out in the streets that he can get, that he can’t have at home. I stripped for him, lapdanced him, blew him, and rode him hard. No stripper can compete with me on that level. Great opportunity for me to do my thing and have fun with my husband. Y’all need to get on my level…

    Lol.

    And she’s a school teacher no less. Dirty school teacher.

    She sees it all. And she imagines what she can’t see. I never, ever correct her wrt women hitting on me on some level. I don’t censor myself around her wrt women approaching me to talk or flirt.

    She understands my mindset, my dick is mine and I can do with it whatever I choose, with whoever I choose. She excepts that concept, but she has a concept of her own, which is – keep your man well fed and well fucked and you won’t have many problems.

    She is confident in her abilities.

    18+ years and counting. As I type this, I am neither hungry or horny ( at the moment…). I’ll be home in approx. 6 hours though…….

    Practically all of my married friends dread their wives in some manner. A couple even bang the odd chick here and there. Women do not hold the cards on a man’s sexuality. That’s a myth. But they can provide you with compelling reasons not to stray.

    This is true for GF’s, LTR’s, Wives, Fuckbuddies, or what ever, but the key is always YOU.

  4. Maybe a better way to put it is: most of the attraction triggers or DHVs are INDEPENDENT of the AF-BB, lover-provider spectrum.

    You can trigger some, like preselection, through lover MEANS (her coming over and seeing used condoms all over your bedroom) or otherwise (her simply witnessing you being good with women(waitresses, shop clerks (hired guns)))

  5. Novaseeker can correct me on the following if he wants to.

    Anti-Family Court is not really a court under the US Constitution. It’s a court of equity, a court of “fairness”, not so much a court of law. A man hauled into this court doesn’t have any of the Constitutional rights he’d have in even a low level Justice of the Peace court.

    Murderers have more rights than a husband in anti-family court.

    A man in front of an anti-Family court judge cannot confront his accuser(s). He can be made to testify against himself. All kinds of spurious junk can be admitted as “evidence”, such as a Protection Order against him obtained via blatant perjury. His soon to be ex can meet with her attorney and the judge and maybe his attorney or maybe not, in an “Ex Parte” hearing and then send him the judgement & the bill. “We got together and played Court today, here’s what you are guilty of and how much you will pay me for the next 10 years”. Anti-Family court judges can decide how much child support / alimony a man should pay based on what the judge thinks he should be earning it is called “Imputed Income”. It doesn’t have to bear any resemblance to his real income at all. If he falls too far behind, the judge can order him arrested and imprisoned, and held there until the deb is paid – yes, this is “debtors prison”, something that the Englishmen in 1776 were opposed to. Deal with it.

    Oh, and the ex wife doesn’t have to ever account for even on penny of child support. She can blow it all on her new boyfriend’s Harley if she wants to and no anti-Family court judge will even blink an eye.

    There’s even more beyond this but I think the point should be clear?

    Now guess what? Fathers who are not married to the woman are treated worse than husbands. All the above, plus anything else they can think up just because he’s a no-good babydaddy sonofabitch woman hater cad Deadbeat Dad bastard.

    If married fathers have zero rights in anti-Family court, unmarried ones have …. negative rights.

    Something like the pLTR idea has been tried, in living memory. And no, Sentient, no, Blaximus, I’m not talking about the projects or the ‘hood. I’m talking about the hippies. Simmer down.

    The hippies of the 1960’s and 70’s and I guess into the 80’s were doing their thing, their “let’s live together as long as it’s all good”, their soft harem / group marriage / polymarriage / musical chairs whatever relationship at a different time than now. All the anti-Family court stuff didn’t really exist , not yet. Marriage wasn’t at that time the 3-way it is now, with Big Sibling hogging the covers on the bed, leaving Wife with the sheet and Husband with nothing. A hippie girl who felt wronged didn’t have the Federally funded VAWA mandated Duluth Wheel to crush her hippie dude with – Duluth didn’t even exist until 1980, and it took a few years to propagate out into the larger legal system.

    Plus the hippies were all about being countercultural, with dropping out of the system. So if Cute Hippy Girl turned up preggers and there was a man or two or three she could potentially names as “Daddy” they all might just work out a deal, you know, an arrangement thing, without bringing The Man into it. Their business, y’dig? ‘Cause The Man will just bring cops and pigs and stuff into it, better to just keep it in the flower-power community, see.

    I’m not making this up. Know some people who were born in the late 60’s to mid 70’s who grew up in rather fluid circumstances familywise; parents who were “married” in some sort of vague commonlawish sense, parents who had drifted apart and formed some sort of group thing and drifted further apart, families with three adults who were all in the same bed, and so forth.

    Yes. I know people who grew up in what could be called a pLTR. Some did ok, some not so good, a couple are dead. Such is life.

    All this to one side – what the hippies managed to get away with 30-40 years ago doesn’t matter anymore. The laws changed in the 80’s. They changed again in the 90’s. What they got away with is almost impossible now, because the legal landscape has drastically changed.

    (Pretty ironic that the “Get your government out of my bedroom!” Boomers have managed to shove the government further into our bedrooms than ever before. Different rant…)

    When it comes to family “law”, the much despised MRA’s are pretty much the only game in town for pushing back at any of this (Yeah, Blax,that includes fathers4justice, go ahead and hate on those men who just want 50-50 custody of their kids, it’s ok). If co-custody ever becomes a norm for divorced parents, it will be because of the MRA’s. Nobody else cares. And furthermore, it will be over the opposition of all feminists, which specifically includes “traditional” “conservative” men aka White Knights.

    tl’dr
    It can get really nasty in anti-Family court for any married man who is a father. It’s very, very likely to be worse for an unmarried man who is a father. Don’t like it? Me neither, but these are the facts.

  6. @ AR

    Good stuff man.

    And I don’t ” hate ” on Fathers4Justice really, I just think that they need to do more of this:

    http://www.fathers-4-justice.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MANIFESTO-FACT-SHEET.jpg

    As opposed to this:

    https://newf4j.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/aaqsk.jpeg

    Although it would be accurate if the Judge in antifamily court were to dress like Bane, they do not. They are serious about throttling men that come before them.

    It is indeed imperative that men wishing to have children outside of marriage understand how the ” justice ” system will treat them. Again, not advocating for marriage here, but a man must know what he’s up against as a man impregnating a woman sans marriage.

    It shouldn’t matter if everything is fair and equal, but we all know that’s not the case. To quote HABD, the FI is cunning and pervasive.

    Imo, if men really wanted to escape this court dictated fuckery, they need to attack it from the legal side first. Yes, protest, absolutely, but get legislature(s) to assist in changing the laws.

    Hell, it’s worth a shot.

    First, attack it on the state level by contacting state reps. I think it’s a numbers game. The FI isn’t really all that strong numbers wise, but the few have much legislative pull because men don’t fight back. Guys normally find out after they get shafted.

    Second, attack it federally. No court should be allowed to violate constitutional rights. What would the Supreme Court have to say about this? ( I gotta look that up ).

    Problem is that men aren’t making a coordinated effort to fight back in large enough numbers.

    MRA is a drop in a 55 gallon drum. Something more ( that I am at a loss to define ) must be done.

  7. O/T kind of-

    I’ve been recently maintaining that if men do not bond together and help one another and fight the insane man-hate that’s becoming prevalent, it’s only a matter of time before all men will find themselves subject to this type of shit –

    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JfYdGpolS8&w=640&h=360%5D

    The ” laws ” will be used against you in an ever increasing manner. It is always a dangerous idea when men are ” targeted ” in some fashion. Imo, (anti)family court is the first salvo. If left unchallenged, it will escalate until just being male is an offense.

    Lol….ask me how I already know this.

  8. A quick thought on who gets screwed the worst in anti Family court. Based on my totally non-random sampling I sorta suspect it is the situational Alphas who are most likely to get a truly epic beating, the “man comes home from work to find the locks changed, a cop car waiting, he gets 10 minutes to pack his bags and leave” sort of thing.

    One man I know who has a lot of command presence, not surprising in a veteran of combat, married an East Asian woman who had two children then got unhaaaapy and frivorced him to the tune of “sole custody”. The original decree let him see his kids four (4) days per year. He’s spent a lot of time and money since then to get anything like an equitable situation. Dozens of court hearings per year, lots of cash on attorney fees. He’s still not anywhere near co-parenting, but it’s a lot better than it was.

    Another man is very intelligent. Well known in his field. Got tenured very quickly, because his department didn’t want to lose him. Always has outside funding for research. Presents papers at big conferences around the world. Is approachable by students but still a big man in his institution. He was totally, absolutely blindsided by his frivorce. I heard him talking on the phone that day to a friend, “Half of everything! Half of my IRA! Half of EVERYTHING! I can’t believe how greedy she’s become!” and I just tiptoed down the hall, because i frankly didn’t want to see him at that moment. Oh, and this was one of those classic “can’t pelase them” moments: one of her justifications boiled down to “He’s never around!” because he worked long hours on research projects as well as teaching and mentoring students. Of course, those long hours meant more funding from industry and government, and therefore more coin banked for her as a SAHM and their children, but…I don’t need to go on, do I?

    That Alpha label, whether it’s CEO or Tenured Professor is like a uniform. It’s not the same thing as inner game. But it signals Real Deal Alpha to women, especially back a few years ago when Provider Game was still sort of workable.

    So the girls marry what they think is a Real Deal Alpha and find out they actually got a Beta provider. The disappointment takes a few years to set in, and eventually turns to frustration and then to fury. At this point frivorce pressures start building.

    In a way, the female disappointment at finding their Alpha is really a Beta is a kind of mirror image of the male disappointment when his Hottie girlfriend turns into a starfish-wife. Of course there is a huge, glaring, difference: via social pressure, men are told to Man UP and endure whatever bad behavior and downright mean shit that a women chooses to throw at him, while women are told that they deserve the very bestest of bestness and they should just dump any man who fails to measure up to the ever-changing wall of standards. Women’s disappointment can be salved with cash and prizes, men should just take up a hobby and do some more choreplay. That’s the message from all the “marriage advice” industries far as I can tell.

    tl;der
    Women who are fooled by externals, (who fool themselves IOW) may wind up furious, and take their fury out on the nearest man…whathisname, that “till death do us part” guy.

    Inner game matters. A lot.

  9. Still making my way to the end of these comments, and of the many things I’ve noticed and wanted to say…

    @ The Diplomat

    “Anyone else gotten this vibe from ‘Mitch?’”

    LOL yes, particularly with the whole “you men” thing. Alright back to catching up lmao

  10. @HABD:
    thanks, I think I just need to figure it out for myself at this point, no one else can do that for me.
    If you are interested here is my s(h)ituation described in a post some weeks ago:
    https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/05/the-best-of-the-rational-male-year-5/comment-page-3/#comment-168838

    @Sentient and the rest: I think there is always going to be a “inner game” difference between (irrational?) self-confidence as in “Yes, I could totally pull those hotties and bang them if I want to, I just don’t” and the solid proof of having just done it.

    Sentient, in your FR of your first extra-marital ONS, I interpreted that the main reason you went for it was precisely to confirm / be sure that the problem wasn’t you, it was your wife. Although in the end I’d argue it was you, and you probably needed to move from the “I could do it if I wanted to” to “I just did it” to sort out.

    Blax and Rollo don’t need to push it as far with his the respective wives for whatever reason. AWALT, but not all women are exactly the same, hence vetting and not all situations are the same for sure. Sentient apparently did need to cross that line.

  11. I just finished reading through this thread and I FINALLY have some clarity on what the older married guys have been saying -especially HABD’s breakdown (and some of Blax and Sentient’s talk about triggering dread when married and how being married or not is irrelevant).

    The KEY point I get from HABD is that a pLTR only helps with attraction IF you can next the girl by virtue of NOT being married. But if you have a kid with her, you CAN’T next her and are in fact tied to her MORE strongly than being married, so the pLTR (unmarried) benefit disappears. Plus being married actually gives you SOME advantages wrt kids and society and The System which a pLTR doesn’t.

    I’d really like to see YaReally’s serious response to this point. I think a version of this was posted before on an earlier thread (much less detail) and he said something along the lines of how you ARE tied to the chick you have a kid with, but if you already have one chain tying you to her (the kid), you don’t need to voluntarily add another chain (marriage). But the counter to that I assume is HABD’s point – the second chain of marriage doesn’t lock you down MORE even though it is an additional chain – all the meaningful lockdown happens with the kid – and in fact the second chain gives you certain ADVANTAGES so you may as well go for it.

    Also, getting married doesn’t actually prevent you from running a non-monogamous pLTR (which is what I think HABD is saying but he hasn’t elaborated on that aspect) so you CAN actually get married and do that. But you don’t have to actually PinV other girls (unless you want to) to maintain dread, because according to Blax and Sentient, the presence or absence of legal marriage doesn’t (in their experience) significantly affect the dread they induce – because their actions and their social proof and IOIs from hot girls are not affected by marital status. YaReally’s response would be that IN ADDITION to the above being unmarried makes it easier to walk away, so you may as well have that additional advantage too – but if we accept the earlier premise that it DOESN’T make it easier to walk away when you have kids, then that point fails..

    This is pretty much what the OMGs are saying right?

    YaReally – I’d really like to hear your response to this, because I finally feel like I’m getting a grip on the points and it makes a lot of sense to me.

    (the only potential flaw I can see in the OMG argument – and it’s not even a flaw, just an assertion that needs to be tested – is: “Is it TRUE that having a kid with a girl locks you down to such an extent that marriage on top of that makes no significant difference?” (I can see that the other part of HABD’s point is clearly true – being married gives you some benefits/status as the husband/father that unmarried men don’t get – but is it empirically true that marriage doesn’t ADD to the burden? I think that’s the bit YaReally may take issue with).

  12. IAS
    I crossed that line once, had an EM affair. it was to have fun that was sorely lacking at home but as much as anything it was kind of to confirm that “I still had it”. Which I did, she was a little hottie which just plain feels good to score that, especially away from another man who on the face of it seemed pretty sorted out but was actually BB all the way.

    Ultimately when wife found out about it, it got rebooted as dread writ large.

    I will say however, that between the time I did it and it was found out, that my confidence etc was boosted immensely.It did in fact sort things out for me substantially,immediately, because I was sliding into the “Is it her or is it me?” swamp of crazy. Wife was effectively gas-lighting me and arbitrarily and unilaterally retroactively renegotiating the terms of our marriage. Getting an “external point of reference” entirely changed the dynamic of things. Not in its totallity, but it revealed power I feared I had lost, that i didn’t even really realize I needed.

    @AR. There was a time before RP or early RP where I was thinking about divorce, or bracing for it, so I started my research hard and fast. I already was involved a great deal with my kids lives, demonstrably so, but I doubled down on it. So I started planning for it and made it part of my daily routine to ensure that should things end up in court, I would come off as the super parent. So I make a point of booking and taking the kids to all dr appts. I sign everyone’s homework every night, I lead parent teacher interviews, I am listed as the emergency contact and primary contact for everything they do. In my jurisdiction all those things play into any kind of custody battle. Anything that requires a parents signature, I am there signing to make sure there is a paper trail almost devoid of the mother, even when she was a stay at home mom I did it religiously.
    Plus on counter measures I made sure to document all the crazy pills my wife was on, and her inability to use them properly etc. For bad behavior like smoking weed in a house with kids, I simply make sure wife is with me and participating also whenever it happens.
    Long story short, I made a point of understanding strategically what the “narrative” would have to be with the kids should shit come off the rails to improve my chances of an outcome acceptable to me. I make a point of staying in touch with that and keeping it well serviced all the way down the line. The protection it would afford me would be high percentage of custody should I want it and shifting the financial focus to child support that would stay vested for the most part with me.
    The upside to all of this at this point is that if the kids were asked who they want to live with it would 98% be me for my daughter and 50/50 for my son. (He wouldn’t accept having to choose if it came to it), my daughter wouldn’t even pause to take a breath before she answered.
    None of that took or takes a great deal of effort, just a bit of foresight and planning. The upside in the moment is that i am actually a great dad. I am there when they come home from school, I do all that super dad shit without being BB at this point. I look at it simply as “I want it done right so I better do it”. By way of example, if my wife left for a week of business travel, the house actually runs even smoother than normal because the random factor gets reduced.

  13. IAS – you are seizing upon one little thing in the whole scheme of reframing your relationship… don’t ignore the much larger part of the story… you can see another snippet here… all the other kind of things you need to do… “the work”…

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/asshole-game-week-the-relationship-reset/

    The Chateau has plenty of readers already in relationships and (lucifer help you) marriage. Many of them would like to know how to apply asshole game to the women they love and are afraid to drive into boredom because of legal ramifications.

    The rules of the Game don’t change when you decide to keep a woman around for longer than a few nights. All that changes is the frequency and intensity of your tactical assault. Instead of “shock and awe”, it’s more like “surprise and delight”.

    On that dulcet note, reader Sentient demonstrates by example,

    A few notes on asshole game from the confines of a marriage/LTR. Now while these may not have the the same storytelling value of asking a single girl to hold your drink while fucking another girl in front of her, they do render the desired nuclear effect on a fully pampered princess bride, who has grown accustomed to her beta lackey hubby:

    1. She asks you to fill her water glass with a whiney “i’m thirsty… and a wiggle of a raised glass” and you say “No thanks”.

    2. She asks you to run downstairs and get her xxxx from yyyy and you say “I think you can manage that, it’s good for your glutes too”.

    3. She informs you that her BFF has arranged a play date for the kids and you and her an hour away from home at some place you have zero desire to go to, and she expects you to be the driver, as always and you say “Have a good time, not interested”.

    4. You make a move for sex at 10 PM on a Wednesday night, she gives you the cold shoulder and something like “we just had sex [fill in the blank] days ago”, and you say “Ok, have a good night”, kiss her on the head and leave the house “not sleepy, going out for a bit” your departing words… a furious litany of hamsterese lighting up your phone for the next hour, which you ignore.

    5. and the coup de grace, when she wants to have a BIG TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP and she says “I don’t like how you have been acting the last [fill in the blank]…” and you look her square in the eye and shrug “you don’t have to”.

    BOOOOM goes the dynamite. Relationship reset activated. #winning #welcomebacktestes #tingles

    “Relationship Reset” is a good way of putting it. That’s precisely what you want to do. Reset your girlfriend’s or wife’s impression of you. And there’s no hotter button to push than the one that activates a tingle torrent. A million things about you can anger a woman, but if her anger is accompanied by a stirring in her snatch she’ll rationalize your flaws away as if they were puffs of girlish illusion.

    Assuming, arguendo, your position, well now you still have a choice reset your subcoms via Blax/Rollo or me. But I still disagree with your premise.

    Figure out what YOU want, then go about doing the work…

  14. “Anyone that judges you has their own issues.”

    Take up my cycling offer and I will judge the shit out of you, like you’ve never been judged before.

    Because I will care about you.

  15. @Sentient

    How do you view yourself? That is how your subcoms look.

    Consider a comparison of my buddy and me.

    Exactly. I have a buddy who thinks that he’s super alpha because he has banged over 50 women, although most are 5s and just a few 6s and nothing higher. When a fattie called him for a hookup, he ended our night of drinking beer/hanging out to go fuck her after a very short time. Otoh, when Mrs. Gamer instigated me for a fuck a different night, I told her that I already had plans, sorry. I have only banged two women–a 9 and a 10…and finger-fucked maybe 12-20, most of whom weren’t hot enough for me to stick my dick in or else logistical issues got in the way. My buddy is needy and I am not. Even when I was single, I was never needy, except when I believed that I needed a gf to give me emotional feewings.

    My subcomms are solid and my buddy’s subcomms suck. Hot women give me IOIs, but they don’t even see him. We both get attention from 6s. I don’t even see 5s. The number of fucks don’t tell the whole story–quality matters, too.

    If you’ve never fucked a woman hotter than a 6, you aren’t alpha.

    If you are so needy that you fuck a fattie, you aren’t alpha. Drunk alphas fuck fatties, but never sober.

  16. @IAS

    read through your situ…

    some basic points (random) to ponder…

    you don’t HAVE to ‘cheat’ if you are uncomfortable doing that… (and don’t take this as advocacy…lol…i’m just pointing this out…) but that feeling of ‘cheating’ you have is the FI pushing on you… bc you feel like you are ‘not entitled to get what you want’…

    if you don’t have kids… and never WANT kids… you probably shouldn’t be married anyway… and ESPECIALLY if SHE really DOES want kids… bc then one of you is living a less than optimal life… and ESPECIALLY if she is closing out her ‘pop out a kid’ fertility phase…

    if you are in an LDR, that says something about your commitment to each other… unless there really ARE no jobs around where you are for her, she COULD have moved with you… either one of you COULD have insisted… and since this was well before you got RP, were you still concerned about ‘divorce rape’? or did you just not want to be around her?… or did she not want to be around you?…

    if you weren’t married to her, would you still date her? (like in Blaximus’ situ… he would STILL choose to ‘date’ his wife, even if he wasn’t already married to her…) your answer to THAT should help you decide what to do… and if not, why not?…

    ‘chemical pair bonding’ doesn’t just happen with girls…lol… ‘wife goggles’ really ARE a ‘thing’…lol… if you were a virgin with her, you have some of this in play too…

    what benefit does ‘being married’ (and especially to her) have for you?… are you ‘guaranteed’ sex when you do see each other? is just hanging around her fun for you?… do you look forward to seeing her, or is it just a chore?… could YOU change the situ to get what you want WITHOUT divorce?…

    you CAN game your wife…lol… she is a girl after all…lol… like i told @Andy, wives are just live-in shit test generators… you know, for game practice…lol… you can still get that same effect, even if you don’t ‘live together’… game her by text, phone calls, whatever… also, you can use her to practice every aspect of game – compile her rolodex of shit tests, practice adjusting her moods (up or down), push YOUR boundaries wrt girls… there’s a lot of possibilities… which are admittedly limited bc you don’t live together, but are still there when you do see her…

    make your own decisions, based on your own value set…and your own observations of your own life… just bc some random names on a computer screen tell you something is true, doesn’t make it true (and that includes me…lol… i’m just some sperg on the interwebs who can’t even tie my own shoes without velcro…lol). YOU need to make your own decisions, bc YOU have to live with the consequences… having said that, don’t make your decisions based on fear of failure… make them based on an expectation of success… even IF you don’t currently have comfort with necessary skills to make that success happen…

    are you sure her N=1 is still true?… she has a much higher chance than a random girl, whose N count was high to start with, but it really is 2016…lol… and a girl’s hindbrain still ‘wants da babies’… regardless of her ‘values’ (religious or not)…

    every year of marriage means a greater likelihood of alimony… as well as splitting up more marital assets/debts…

    continuing to improve yourself is a great goal… staying married or not…

    check with a lawyer to see what your situ actually IS before you pull any triggers… could be better or worse than you think, and it’s ALWAYS better to KNOW… the fact that you don’t have kids is a HUGE financial discount in your favor…lol… regardless of however the marital split goes… try to keep some perspective…lol… or you’ll just get wound up for no reason…

    soooo, following that idea… be conscious of an ‘oopsie’… especially if she WANTS ‘da babies’… lol… do you think that she would think that she could leverage THAT into getting a house?… (note – none of this happens on a conscious level for most girls…so, factor that into your relationship dynamic…)

    i think @Rollo had some commentary on LDRs…

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/26/buffers/

    Virtually every common problem guys deal with finds it’s basis in these buffers:

    LDRs – Long Distance Relationships. The AFC will entertain an LDR because it was based on a previous acceptance of intimacy and being no longer convenient (due to distance) the guy will cling to the “relationship” because it’s a buffer against potential rejection from new women instead of accepting the relationship as being finished and maturely re-entering the dating pool. It’s a perceived “sure thing”, even if only rarely rewarding.

    that’s probably in play here on some level, so being aware of it helps with your analysis of your situ…

    that’s all i have for now, but that should give you something for your brain to chew on for a while…

    good luck!

  17. @Agent P at 7:27am

    props… THAT’S how you do it…lol…

    don’t forget that you ‘make sure’ (even if the wife does that stuff mostly) the kids get fed, bathed, laundry gets done, groceries are gotten (helps to do this a couple times…if not always… take the kids with for an outing…lol), house gets cleaned, etc… (and especially meds get administered properly…). also, kids up and ready for school, kids put to bed/read to… physical AND emotional health…

    and props on being great dad!…

    good luck!

  18. @HABD: thanks, some slightly different POV to help my own though process.

    Also, beyond the buffers article, Rollo on LDRs.
    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/20/letting-go-of-invisible-friend/

    I am not guaranteed any benefits (desire can’t be negotiated). I just couldn’t understand prior to the RP how it could be days and weeks apart, and then I make the trip to visit and can be left blue balled (with physical pain). At least when I’m apart I don’t get blue balled.

    The key question is indeed what are the benefits for me. And when I revisit this question it just seems like a net negative. At that stage it isn’t even “Can I get better women” and being worried about rejection but I’d even be better off MTGOW (which isn’t the plan anyway).

    Her N=1, obviously in a LDR she has lots of opportunities. I genuinely think she doesn’t even masturbate though. Besides, unless I actually knew she cheated, I think I can’t factor that into my decision.

    I am aware that her N=1 and my N=1 play a role in my inaction, but after 1 year of RP, self-improvement and not that much marriage improvement I think I’m finally getting over it.

    Here is where I feel the FI pushing on me: I’m paranoid about talking this with my brother or buddies. I think there is a chance they could warn my wife. Maybe that is unfair of me to them, but the worry is there so I don’t risk it.

  19. @Culum

    (the only potential flaw I can see in the OMG argument – and it’s not even a flaw, just an assertion that needs to be tested – is: “Is it TRUE that having a kid with a girl locks you down to such an extent that marriage on top of that makes no significant difference?” (I can see that the other part of HABD’s point is clearly true – being married gives you some benefits/status as the husband/father that unmarried men don’t get – but is it empirically true that marriage doesn’t ADD to the burden? I think that’s the bit YaReally may take issue with).

    the ‘lock down’ comes from the girl ‘locking you down’ by being the MOM…lol…(bc part of the problem as defined was ‘live with your kid, and raise him in a 2 parent family… so mom HAS to be there…lol), and that’s exponentially more of a ‘lock down’ than a legal signature on a contract for marriage…

    AND

    the ‘lock down’ also comes from the ‘system’ imposing its terms on your situ (if you are not legal contract married)… bc of ‘being named as the father’ of the kid AND the fact that ‘mom’ triggers the system into action… (note – you could still ‘walk away’ from the ‘relationship’, but THAT defeats the problem as defined of ‘being able to live with your kid’, so you really can’t do that anyway…lol)…

    either way… you CAN’T walk away from the SYSTEM…

    and what part of ‘up to 65% of your income’ (for child support… as well as facing jail time for not being ABLE to pay…as well as the system seizing all of your assets to pay for your child support arrears…) is WORSE than being legal contract married is so hard to understand?…lol

    good luck!

  20. habd
    you CAN’T walk away from the SYSTEM

    That’s the tl;dr of my dribble about the hippies of the 60’s and 70’s and 80’s.
    They actively walked away from the system, and it worked for some of them, for a while.

    The system has been reworked, changed, tweaked multiple times since then explicitly to make it all but impossible to walk away from. “For the children”, of course.

  21. IAS

    I used to spend a lot of time at the MMSL board, back when the forum first started… until things got weird with the female mods and I ended up banned (HABD as well LOL)

    One thing that was useful was to see in real time thousands of guys all with the exact same issues, mostly coming from the exact same place – never had hand, always in scarcity mindset, never wanted to rock the boat, “nice guys” etc. All getting the exact same outcomes – low attraction, passive aggressive behavior, frustration and anger, etc.

    One diagnostic tool they came up with that was actually pretty useful, at least it would cut down a lot of time wasting, was the “Triage Questionnaire”… Invariably there would be guys that did not fill it out and some key element would eventually surface “when she was 19 she got pregnant and had an abortion” and “aha” everything would then make sense…

    So here are their questions, you may want to at least think about all the areas. The ones that make you the most uncomfortable are the best ones to focus on.

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/

    Question One – Basic Questions

    How old are you and your spouse? When did you get married? How long have you been together? Do you have children, if so, how old?

    Realistically, how hot are each of you? How tall? How much do you guys weigh?

    Question Two – Rule Out Medical

    Tell us about any medications, medical issues, birth control history and the all-purpose general physical health of both of you. There are plenty of medical things that can nerf sex drive and the ability to function sexually. We ask this first because there’s minimal benefit from trying to “be all sexy with” a partner that just has zero sex drive or struggles physically to orgasm.

    If the problem is a medical issue, the solution is to seek medical attention and have it addressed. You must educate yourself as fully as possible on the critical medical needs affecting your sex life. You can’t simply book a medical appointment and hope for the best. You need to read up and ask questions. The entire goal of running the MAP may simply be to get your partner to seek medical attention for their issue.

    Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

    The structural attraction stuff is something you are lacking that 90%+ of the general public would find a serious obstacle to being interested in you. I’m talking about stuff like whether or not you have/can hold a job. Whether you have a mountain of debt. Whether you are badly obese. Whether you own your own car (outside of a city like New York of course). Whether your home is in a safe neighborhood. Whether you have a serious illness. Anything that is currently a big problem in your life now that would have been a deal breaker when they first got involved with you.

    Again… these are all things that you can’t sweet-talk your way out of. If she’s lying awake at night thinking about how you don’t have a job and the debt is piling up, and you’re 150 pounds overweight, she’s simply not going to respond as well as if you were in shape and there was $5,000 in the checking account. Just not happening.

    Therefore, the solution is to fix those long-term structural attraction issues. This may well take a long time and require huge effort, but it’s the only way to advance into the future with any degree of success.

    Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

    Sometimes you just really screw up and it creates a moment of such negative emotion that it wounds your partner. Stuff like you didn’t come to the birth of your kid. His best friend died and you went shopping for shoes. Anyone hitting anyone for any reason. Any cheating (no matter how long ago). Public humiliation. Anything that would appear to an outside observer to be completely out of line. Likewise extreme long term ignoring – whether that’s by video game addiction, long hours at work, or endless travel.

    The solution is to apologize and be genuine about it. Often the initial problem stems from a lack of positive relationship attention, so whatever that lack was, you have to supply it now.

    Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

    If your partner is physically healthy, everything is running smoothly and there’s no big soul crushing moment dampening things, but the sex is minimal and they are mentally absent and acting strangely… odds are there is another sexual source involved. They will always hide it from you as best they can, so you will need to play detective and ferret out the phone records, credit card statements, phone and text logs, Internet history and so on.

    I know that’s horrible to think about, but I have learned to always ask the question about ruling out someone else. I am unfortunately right about this a regrettably high amount of the time. They aren’t going to respond to you with high interest over some sexy moves, when someone else has them all jacked up on dopamine from illicit text messages and swapping nude photos. You must intervene firmly, swiftly and decisively.

    Likewise extremely high porn use can play that same role, as can other addictive behavior.

    Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

    “Anytime you notice your partner being unusually moody, odd, avoidant or devious with you, never let it go on more than two weeks without getting to the bottom of it.”

    This is a non-simple question. There are any number of reasons that sex could decline with a couple: Birth trauma, new kids, sick kids, sick wife, sick husband, work pressure, deployment, work travel, medications… and on and on and on.

    However, unless you both can point to a clear reason that the sex is starting to disappear, you both need to find out what that reason is. The trouble is that with the mundane pressures of life, illness and ill fortune, the sex doesn’t just stop dead overnight, it slowly ebbs away over a few months or even a year.
    You have to think back long and hard as to what changed in your lives, when the sex started to go downhill. If you can figure it out, and take steps to fix that issue, that might be the very best thing you can do for your sex life.

    Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

    Typically, the sexual experience before/around the wedding sets the high water mark of what the sex will be like together. As you age together you can certainly gain in skill and knowledge of each other and have much better sex later in the marriage, but in terms of the basic interest in you, before the marriage is as good as it gets.

    If there was a sudden and notable change in the sex immediately after the wedding…the old “bait and switch”…tell us about it.

    Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

    What’s that one thing you really don’t want to tell anyone?

    That thing that you really don’t want to come clean about is very likely the thing that’s screwing up your whole marriage. That’s the thing you need to face up to and get out into the open. MMSL isn’t going to be able to save your marriage while you try to keep three tons of elephant droppings from seeing the light of day.

    To be 100% clear here, no one on the forum should judge you for your problem. The only thing we care about is fixing your problem. As in, if you’re a total porn addict, I’m not going to tell you you’re a horrible person that should be ashamed of yourself, I’m just going to tell you how to kick it and get on with a happy marriage. Everyone comes to MMSL with a bag of trash, no one is perfect, we all need help. It’s just all a waste of time if you withhold the critical information.

    Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

    In any relationship, there’s always a leader and a follower. Tell us about how that’s been playing out in your marriage so far.

    Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

    When your marriage was going really well, why do you think that was? When was that? What are you doing differently now?

    I’m curious to know if you are sub continental Indian by background and a Christian…

  22. @IAS

    I am not guaranteed any benefits (desire can’t be negotiated). I just couldn’t understand prior to the RP how it could be days and weeks apart, and then I make the trip to visit and can be left blue balled (with physical pain). At least when I’m apart I don’t get blue balled.

    sooo, game away…lol… what do you have to lose… except an ‘oopsie’…lol

    The key question is indeed what are the benefits for me. And when I revisit this question it just seems like a net negative. At that stage it isn’t even “Can I get better women” and being worried about rejection but I’d even be better off MTGOW (which isn’t the plan anyway).

    if there really is NO benefit to you, then you should pull the plug… there aren’t any kids involved, so it should just be a matter of ‘stuff’…

    Her N=1, obviously in a LDR she has lots of opportunities. I genuinely think she doesn’t even masturbate though. Besides, unless I actually knew she cheated, I think I can’t factor that into my decision.

    I am aware that her N=1 and my N=1 play a role in my inaction, but after 1 year of RP, self-improvement and not that much marriage improvement I think I’m finally getting over it.

    any marriage ‘improvement’ is on you… bc girls just ‘react’ to their environment… have you actually changed your behaviors towards your wife?… bc that’s all SHE knows about… how you relate to HER… and having all the RP knowledge in the world doesn’t mean anything if you still behave the same…

    no objective change in inputs ==> no objective change in outcome…

    Here is where I feel the FI pushing on me: I’m paranoid about talking this with my brother or buddies. I think there is a chance they could warn my wife. Maybe that is unfair of me to them, but the worry is there so I don’t risk it.

    so don’t…lol… vent on here… ask questions… comment… lots of men here can help you… and there are a lot of us that want to help other men get better results in their lives…

    good luck!

  23. @Sentient: European, white and formerly Catholic.

    The elephants in the room are already posted, I’m N=1 inexperienced in Game and sex despite being mid-thirties, spergy and I’m in an LDR. I think some of those would be shameful enough if I was to feel shame about it (I mostly don’t fortunately).

    Nothing else in the triage makes me wonder. In the past I wondered about Medical, but there are a few instances of desire sex where she is lubricated. When she isn’t it is because I haven’t elicited arousal and she is giving me “duty sex”.

    Incidentally this is partly why I’m convinced she is also (still) N=1 – neither of us realized that it wasn’t supposed to be so hard to have sex. I’m convinced now it really can be as easy as you usually see in movies, and as easy as I have had with her in a few times.

    The good times are mostly when she isn’t worried about other stuff (like her work), such as in holidays. This also blocked my progress as it helped me convince myself the problem wasn’t me. But it ends up coming back, I bet she is probably subconsciously (or consciously) punishing me for not being present (LDR) and for her having to work (I don’t think there are any doubts that I’m in the provider/BB track here).

  24. IAS

    I bet she is probably subconsciously (or consciously) punishing me for not being present (LDR) and for her having to work (I don’t think there are any doubts that I’m in the provider/BB track here).

    No doubt about the first part… maybe the second part, not as important though.

    If I was going to make this work, having her move back to where I lived and worked – this is your mission you said – would be Step 1.

  25. @Sentient: I thought about trying that during this past year.

    I’m obviously not very convinced it can work given the limited progress I made despite knowing about the Red Pill (I could have acted more). There is a huge potential deal breaker that I don’t want kids and she all but overtly does.

    I’d feel genuinely bad about getting her to drop her own work / career (which isn’t spectacular in terms of her fulfillment or salary, but it is something) just to give it a final last try, and then it doesn’t work and I end up divorcing one year later without her having a job or a kid.

    If that is the FI pushing on me I don’t know.

  26. @IAS

    “If that is the FI pushing on me I don’t know.”

    sure you do…lol…

    but even THAT (not being able to even say that the FI is pushing on you)… is the FI pushing on you…lol

    are YOU getting what YOU want?… if not, then it’s the FI pushing on you…

    good luck!

  27. Her regrets should not ultimately be your problem IAS.

    If there is one core message I have internalized about OMG game and RP knowledge etc, it’s that each of us is ultimately responsible for our own happiness. Others might give you happiness but its not their responsibility.

  28. @ Agent P

    ” If there is one core message I have internalized about OMG game and RP knowledge etc, it’s that each of us is ultimately responsible for our own happiness. Others might give you happiness but its not their responsibility.”

    Cosign +1

  29. @Anonymous Reader
    “Fathers who are not married to the woman are treated worse than husbands.”

    My point is that you guys aren’t realizing how this has changed and where the trend is going.

    You’re still picturing husbands being treated “worse than the wife but not totally zero rights in family court”. That was probably true in the past.

    But open your eyes and look around at the world we’re in today, where women are ENCOURAGED to throw false accusations “for the sake of the kids” against their husbands in family court. There’s no way to be “treated worse than husbands” in family court anymore because husbands are ALREADY being treated as bad as if they weren’t married at all now.

    Again these are rapid changes that come from the mainstreaming of false accusation culture as girls and their social circles and their family and their lawyers (“he’s going to do this to you if you don’t do it to him, trust me, easily-influenced woman”) figure out there’s no consequence to throwing in a false abuse/rape/etc accusation, false restraining orders (“I FEEL like he’s dangerous” etc) against the legally married father, etc

    It’s a race to the bottom. Legally married fathers are now being treated EXACTLY LIKE unmarried fathers as soon as the wife is encouraged to pull the false accusation trigger. You are going to either lose custody or be given minimal custody or have to have a VERY good expensive lawyer to fight for any kind of custody EITHER WAY once she pulls that trigger that social pressure is now COMMONLY pushing her to pull.

    “If married fathers have zero rights in anti-Family court, unmarried ones have …. negative rights.”

    No you had it right in the first half of that sentence. That’s the disconnect. There’s no “negative rights”. Zero rights is the bottom. Married fathers now have zero rights in anti-Family court because of our pussypass false accusation culture. Just like unmarried fathers. That’s it. That’s the end of the sentence. It’s all hit rock-bottom. That’s my point.

    Both men entering the family court are in exactly the same position as soon as she drops the false accusation in there, both men will lose custody of their kids and pay child support, except that one man will also be risking asset loss and alimony etc while the other will not, and the man not risking those things has less chance of ending up there because his girl feels dread/attraction longer since he hasn’t agreed not to leave her.

    So you’re not really in any worse position as a father in a pLTR where you live with her, call her your wife, only bone girls on your business trips in discretion, etc (ie – a relationship that looks EXACTLY like Rollo, Sentient, Blaximus, SJF, etc except that you don’t have a scribble on a paper)

    So you might as well go with the option that doesn’t include alimony and makes it easier to keep dread attraction stoked to have an easier time triggering her hypergamy which makes it easier to avoid her bailing on you and having to deal with the family court system.

    Is this all men and all divorces right now? No. But again I’m dealing with the situation now compared to the past, and the way it’s trending for the future. It’s getting worse and it’s going to get even worse, not better.

    So in my mind we might as well discuss alternatives now, because we’re GOING to have this conversation I’ve been trying to have. It’s inevitable. We can either have it now, while the drapes are on fire, or we can have it once the house has burned to rubble.

    @Culum Struan
    “But if you have a kid with her, you CAN’T next her”

    I don’t get what’s so difficult to grasp about what I’m saying. No you can’t just bail on her and the kid entirely, obviously you’re still legally tied to the kid. But you CAN walk away from HER, removing affection, attention, commitment, everything that she gets from you as a woman, without losing your shit and paying alimony. That’s it.

    And when you’re triggering her hypergamy by staying attractive to her, those things have more value to her that they don’t have when she’s lost attraction for you because you stopped doing all the things that made you attractive when you met.

    This is basically playing a very calculated logical based-in-field-tested-evidence mind game between male/female brains, like playing a hand of poker. It’s saying “my cards are shit, but I know this person’s cards and if I can convince this person I have pocket Aces by following all this field-tested shit that convinces women I have pocket Aces, she’ll fold”.

    That’s why I say all I’m doing is taking the red pill to it’s logical conclusion. But everyone loses their shit and panics about that…red pill until it’s risky and goes against their social conditioning. THEN suddenly we throw out all the things that we’ve field tested and Rollo’s written 5 years worth of articles about…those things only apply until it’s time to have a kid and then throw it all out and just follow the Blue Pill arrangement and just work 500x as hard to make that Blue Pill arrangement work.

    All I’m suggesting is what if we just said “okay we know these principles work and are iron-clad…so what if we just keep riding those principles all the way to the end? What would that look like? If these things all cause attraction, and they’re the things we recommend guys do to save dead bedrooms and failing marriages in MMSL, then why not just do them the whole way through instead of ditching the script for half the movie and increasing the odds that the ending is shit? Why not just keep doing the thing that we KNOW works, all the way through the whole movie?”

    “the second chain of marriage doesn’t lock you down MORE even though it is an additional chain”

    I think it’s fascinating that the guys with way more money and assets than me are the ones who are like “whatever, who cares if I lose half my assets, have to pay alimony on TOP of child support, and end up living in the back seat of my car working 3 jobs”

    I can’t relate to the mindset of “if I’m going to risk $100 on this bet I might as well bet my entire life savings on it” but playing poker with you guys must be one hell of a high-stakes game lol Do you guys bet your car and house on your poker hand because hey, you might lose some money anyway so might as well lose it all? That’s insanity to me.

    If I get raped by the courts but in one case I end up with $500/month to my name while in the other case I end up with $2000/month to my name, I will take the $2000/month situation because I’ll be able to recover and rebuild my life easier. I can’t relate to the mindset of “well if I’ll only have $2000/month I might as well take this situation that increases my odds of failure (since it removes a bunch of the attractive things I was doing when I was single and makes it harder to keep hypergamy going long-term) and leaves me with $500/month for no actual benefit (since we’ll both be treated with zero rights in family court once she’s pushed to make up a false accusation “for the sake of the kids, don’t you think they should be with their mother”)”

    Maybe you guys are just so badass UMC rich that you have so much money and so many assets that you don’t care, they can take half your monthly income and you’ll still afford to buy that luxury yatch you’ve always wanted, but I’ve met and read stories from a whole lot of Joe the Plumbers (aka the 90% I’m talking about helping) who end up working 2+ jobs and living out of a car or shitty bachelor pad while their ex and her boyfriend live in his former house with the kids, where asset loss and alimony makes a big fucking difference to their life and ability to recover from the divorce.

    “Also, getting married doesn’t actually prevent you from running a non-monogamous pLTR”

    If you sign a contract with me where I get half your shit and you have to pay for the lifestyle I’m accustomed to living if you touch a doorknob with your left hand instead of your right hand, I’m going to be significantly less worried that you’re going to touch doorknobs with your right hand than if we don’t have a contract.

    Simple logic.

    And what happens when a woman KNOWS you won’t leave her? Well, ask the guys who proclaim their undying love to their one-itis how things go when a girl knows there’s no/minimal risk of you leaving her. Does that INCREASE attraction?

    Again simple logic. These are STANDARD red pill accepted field-tested things, but we throw them out the window when it comes to marriage. Suddenly it’s BETTER to have outcome dependence and not stoke dread lol Suddenly we’re jumping through all these mental loops to try to rationalize that taking more risks is better than taking less risks and rationalizing that cheating in a marriage carries the same consequences as having a fuckbuddy in a pLTR.

    Fucking mental gymnastics going on, all to avoid taking the red pill to it’s logical conclusion and riding it to the hilt.

    The red pill is just a mental exercise for a lot of guys, a fun thought experiment. They aren’t comfortable with me even asking questions or proposing ideas based around taking the red pill past their comfort zone. Gotta shout me down for daring to ask “what would REALLY be the outcome of an ideal red pill scenario (teach men game in their early 20s, then they focus on their career till their 30s, then settle into a pLTR etc etc)”

    “so you CAN actually get married and do that”

    Sure, it just comes with MASSIVELY SEVERE PUNISHMENTS when it doesn’t have to, for no benefit.

    “But you don’t have to actually PinV other girls (unless you want to) to maintain dread”

    Sure, you don’t have to, just like you don’t have to in a pLTR either despite all these guys pushing the idea that a pLTR is you inviting a bunch of random fuckbuddies to live with you and getting them all pregnant which is retarded and has never been what I’ve proposed at all.

    “YaReally’s response would be that IN ADDITION to the above being unmarried makes it easier to walk away, so you may as well have that additional advantage too – but if we accept the earlier premise that it DOESN’T make it easier to walk away when you have kids, then that point fails..”

    Maybe this is the disconnect, guys are thinking too logical about this.

    Which is more important: whether it’s actually easier for you to walk away, or whether SHE BELIEVES that it’s easier for you to walk away?

    Why do girls lose attraction for a guy with one-itis even if he doesn’t marry her? Because even though he CAN walk away easily, she BELIEVES that he can’t, so he’s outcome dependent, which is unattractive.

    Just like Blaximus can be in a legal marriage but his wife can still be worried he would walk out on her if she gave him too much shit (aka dread game).

    It’s her PERCEPTION/FEELS/BELIEF that matter, not the actual legal contract.

    But WITHOUT the legal contract it’s SIGNIFICANTLY easier for a guy to give off the subcomms of a guy who can leave than WITH the legal contract which makes him more outcome dependent…he can fight against that but he’s making that significantly harder to do for no actual benefit.

    “YaReally – I’d really like to hear your response to this, because I finally feel like I’m getting a grip on the points and it makes a lot of sense to me.”

    Hope it makes sense. People are getting caught up in the wrong channels of this. They’re forgetting that to a woman whatever she FEELS is reality. All I’m doing is saying “how about we create a system where we do the things that make it significantly easier to make her FEEL attracted and FEEL like you can easily leave and FEEL hypergamy being pinged with minimal risk to the man, instead of throwing all that shit away and make it much harder for guys to make her FEEL those things?”

    And how she FEELS is what will determine whether you end up in family court or not.

    So is it better to be in an arrangement where based on the rules of attraction that we’re studying here from Rollo and PUAs and MMSL etc that it’s EASIER to make her FEEL attraction for you and not FEEL like taking you to family court because she FEELS you triggering her hypergamy?

    Or is it better to be in an arrangement with a massive (and increasing) failure rate, that we know based on the rules of attraction that we’re studying here will be more DIFFICULT to make her FEEL that attraction and FEEL her hypergamy being pinged and make the guy FEEL more outcome dependent which makes her FEEL less attracted to him which if it crosses far enough will make her FEEL like taking him to family court?

    Why do we just stop following the red pill suddenly and needlessly make men’s job more difficult, instead of them just doing what’s been working and what we’ll recommend they start doing again when they come to us with a failing marriage? Without the legal contract it’ll be a lot easier for them to keep that attraction high (presuming they’re game-learned men who studied game in their 20s and vetted a decent baby mama etc etc (aka my premise from day one on this discussion) VS being some retarded ghetto dudes knocking up 20 baby mamas they haven’t vetted)

    “being married gives you some benefits/status as the husband/father that unmarried men don’t get”

    My argument is that in 2016 it DOESN’T. You get NO benefits the unmarried man gets. You get zero rights in family court because she will be pressured by EVERYONE to falsely accuse you to get the kids. Not all divorces right now, but the trend is worse now and will get worse as time goes on and more and more women do it with no consequences and all benefits.

    Family court will shit on the man either way, so he might as well not also be risking his assets/money.

    “– but is it empirically true that marriage doesn’t ADD to the burden?”

    This is my point. You CAN keep attraction, it’s just significantly more difficult than it would be in a pLTR. Why do we teach guys pickup/game so that they can get laid and have girls in their live and keep relationships alive on Easy mode, and then when they want to have a kid we go:

    “OK NOW SET THE GAME TO EXPERT HARDCORE MODE”

    “What?? Shouldn’t I still keep the game in Easy mode? It’s been working just fine”

    “NAW BRAH, HARDCORE THAT SHIT A REAL MAN TAKES RISKS”

    “But, I’ll be increasing my chance of losing and the stats are showing that more and more guys are losing and–”

    “BRO JUST BE HARDCORE LIKE ME I HAVE A SHRIMP COCKTAIL IN MY HAND FROM MY WIFE CUZ I’M A BADASS”

    “well, okay what’s the benefit exactly? Easy mode seemed pretty nice, does Expert Hardcore mode come with some amazing benefit?”

    “BRO DON’T ASK QUESTIONS FUCK YOU LISTEN TO OMGS WHY ARE YOU INSULTING US BY NOT JUST DOING WHAT WE SAY WITHOUT ASKING QUESTIONS”

    “soooo there’s no benefit? Why don’t I just keep playing on Easy mode? The relationships YOU guys describe sound exactly like pLTRs (or a version of pLTR that I can CHOOSE to have, where I just don’t actually stick my dick in anything even though I have the option to)”

    “HERE’S A VIDEO OF GUYS IN THE GHETTO THIS IS WHAT YOU’RE GOING TO BE YOU MAGGOT NOW DO WHAT WE TELL YOU AND THROW OUT EVERYTHING WE’VE BEEN TEACHING YOU ABOUT THE RED PILL”

    (5 years later)

    Guys guys, my wife won’t touch my dick and is threatening divorce and family court, how do I save this??”

    “Just do all these MMSL red pill things”

    “Wait but those are the things I was doing naturally when I was playing in Easy mode…”

    “BRO WHY ARE YOU DISRESPECTIN US OMGS?!?!!”

    Seems silly to me. Why not just actually follow the red pill and continue to do the things that we know work?

    Any benefits switching the game to Expert Hardcore mode had have been destroyed by society demonizing fathers and pressuring women to make false accusations because there are no consequences for it only rewards and the word “wife” doesn’t mean anything to women anymore. Not all women and not all divorces, but the trend is getting worse not better and there’s no reason to believe it will get better. The drapes are on fire, we can have this conversation now or we can have it later.

  30. @ IAS

    The guys here are giving you some stellar advice.

    My only question to you is: Are you looking to get completely out, or are you looking to turn your marriage around 180 degrees?

    Serious question.

  31. @YaReally

    do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?…

    bc it’s based on ‘child support’ that’s based on some made up income number (imputed income)… which the courts are more likely to do if you are a ‘baby daddy’ than a ‘husband’ (courts REALLY hate those guys…FI is in full play there)…serious question… bc i don’t think you’ve factored that in to your analysis… and that ‘award’ is even easier and more likely if you are not legal contract married… in ADDITION to the imputed income…

    i did my research when my ‘nasty divorce’ was spinning up… and that was, what 5 years ago or so… that shits got to be a lot worse now… ‘baby daddys’ get shit on even MORE than ‘husband/fathers’… hard to believe but it’s true…

    maybe @Novaseeker or @AR can weigh in…

    And how she FEELS is what will determine whether you end up in family court or not.

    i agree with this… but is it more likely that she will trigger the ‘system’ if she is already a ‘single mom’…in a pLTR with you?…

    OR if she will have to ‘give up’ her social status as a ‘wife’ if she ‘makes the call’?… bc presumably she had enough attraction for you to actually AGREE to the legal contract marriage (and that in itself would be a pretty deal for a hot girl in 2016…lol… and you know what i mean…) so she has a big ego investment in THAT idea…again serious question…

    good luck!

  32. “If married fathers have zero rights in anti-Family court, unmarried ones have …. negative rights.”

    YaReally:

    No you had it right in the first half of that sentence. That’s the disconnect. There’s no “negative rights”. Zero rights is the bottom.

    Hate to bring the bad news, but zero rights is not the bottom. Negative rights – like, “You get to fight your child support case from jail through your lawyer because I put you there for contempt of court” do exist.

    Anti-Family court judges tend to presume husband/father “guilty until proven innocent”, they tend to presume unmarried fathers “guilty until proven guilty”. The only way to avoid this is to stay out of the system, like the old hippies did, but now with every town having a Federally funded Feminist staffed “women’s shelter” that constantly needs more customers, a place with stacks of Domestic Violence literature and forms…not so much.

    One of the men I knew who has been frivorced in the last 5 years mentioned in passing that his wife was unpleasant enough, until she started helping out at the Battered Woman’s Shelter and then she became much more contentious, much more prone to start fights, much less useful around the house. The mental atmosphere was toxic, and she was just dropping in to do volunteer work a couple of days a week, the average woman who gets checked in will ge the full brainwashing treatment. This is one reason for the false charges of DV that have pretty much become standard in divorce cases.

    This is part of the system. It’s designed to reel women in and keep men out.

    As the working class people and middle class people marry less and less and less, this might change – once non-married-with-children becomes the norm, that is. Although since any appointed judge tends to be from the lawyer class, ie. UMC, the contempt for men in general and for unmarried babydaddies in particular might just continue.

    Dude, the hippies sorta kinda made the pLTR work, but they were outside the system.
    The system has been reworked multiple times since then to encircle and encapture everyone who has a name on a birth certificate – Parent A or Parent B, doesn’t matter.

    By all means, figure out how to run a soft harem, or a pLTR, or whatever, but just bear in mind the game is rigged, the system is designed to capture each and every man who has his name on one or more birth certs as “parent”. It’s no accident that Social Security Numbers are routinely assigned at birth now.

  33. @Ya Really.
    To expand on my situation, when I got to RP, I was already really low in my life, depressed, fat, not getting laid, married with two kids, 10 years into a marriage, wife had not worked in 3-4 years essentially due to mental issues. I was running in the red on the regular with a few stellar periods of income, but on balance not sustainable.

    When I found the RP, I went through the five stages and holy fuck was I angry. One of the best things I picked up was, she can control the sex, but I can control the commitment. Now that does not get anywhere near the snakes nest of family law. But I was so low I just took the view that i pretty much had nothing to lose. If the marriage blew up, it was an automatic bankruptcy, there’d be barley any assets to haggle over and she could claim the kids and live with her parents.
    My point was I specifically took the attitude I at that point had nothing to lose, so I played the game that way. Just like the movie Heat, be ready to walk in five minutes flat no matter what.

    It was liberating. eventually she figured out that was my approach as well and it sure made her sit up straight all of a sudden. It all comes down to being my own MPO etc.

    my conclusion, if you are really RP, in any relationship, you mentally need to be ready to walk almost no matter what on the girl to maintain ultimate male freedom. Might it mean giving up everything you strived to build? Sure as shit yes. It takes a kind of cruel discipline to be able to do that, but it empowers you a great deal, it sure as shit straightens out a bunch of internals if you live your life thinking you already have one foot out the door at all times. Those internals reflect back to the wife and all of a sudden she understand you are not going to suffer and shennanigans from her.

  34. First post.

    I bet there are a lot of us lurking OMGs here.

    If they are anything like me, they want to hear more from yareally and less from argumentative posters.

    Yareally is handing you value, among other things, he is updating MM for the changing times.

    Listen more and argue less. It’s approximately evil to take an important site like this one and then pour your energies into diluting its content and arguing with one of the most valuable contributors of all.

    Ask yourself: if yareally-content were removed, would this site be as valuable? Now, if _your_ content were to vanish…well, we can only hope…

  35. Endless

    Welcome. Good to see you posting up.

    Welcome to a RP site, where the owner allows all types of opinions. YaReally is great, I concur, and he even has an archive. So what’s with the attitude dude?

    People have different opinions and life experi… you know what? Fuck it.

    Welcome anyway.

  36. Ask yourself: if yareally-content were removed, would this site be as valuable?

    Sure it would. The main value comes from Rollo’s content, as it always has. It was one of the best sites long before Ya showed up here, to be quite frank.

  37. No. I was just gonna lay in the cut and read along, but I can’t not respond the Endless Summer’s rude-like comment in full.

    “I bet there are a lot of us lurking OMGs here.

    If they are anything like me, they want to hear more from yareally and less from argumentative posters.”

    As I said initially, this isn’t strictly a pua site, or have you not been reading Rollo’s work at all? Readers here have differing goals and life experiences.

    ” Yareally is handing you value, among other things, he is updating MM for the changing times.

    Listen more and argue less. It’s approximately evil to take an important site like this one and then pour your energies into diluting its content and arguing with one of the most valuable contributors of all.”

    Everyone here would agree that YaReally is a master contributor. Why do you feel otherwise? Is it because not every single commenter agrees with every single word Ya happens to type? Does that bother you in some fashion? I’m not ” arguing “, I’m just asking.

    “Ask yourself: if yareally-content were removed, would this site be as valuable? Now, if _your_ content were to vanish…well, we can only hope…”

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. So, you say the ” site ” would be ” less valuable ” without YaReally’s content? TRM? Really?

    Even YaReally wouldn’t agree with that statement, and I’d guess Rollo wouldn’t either….but I’m just guessing.

    And like I said before, YaReally is great and adds tons of value, and he has an entire archive. Look in the sidebar and the link is right there. Ask him some questions if you’d like. He is good about responding.

    ….but this here-
    Ask yourself: if yareally-content were removed, would this site be as valuable? Now, if _your_ content were to vanish…well, we can only hope…

    Wasn’t really necessary.

    especially since you haven’t added dick here yet.

    /end rant

    But, like I said, welcome anyway. I look forward to your super pearls of wisdom.

  38. @ Novaseeker

    Lol. I was going to ignore that comment, but it’s just too disrespectful in my opinion.

    You can give YaReally props, and he deserves them, without shitting on TRM as a whole.

  39. Have to remember in all this discussion about marriage vs pLTR that Parental Alienation Syndrome is a thing. Very vividly described by scribblerg awhile back, iirc. Search google for more details.

    Just heard about PAS again in a case involving someone I know. Had lunch recently with his older brother and this time got *all* the details. Which included that phrase PAS plus accusations of child abuse the ex-wife leveled not only at this guy but also the brother and their mother.

    I only interacted socially with the wife twice when they were still married and I remember thinking she had that look about her. Fast forward a few years, run into the husband and his brother, they tell me about the pending divorce (she filed) and the games she is playing against him which included making it as difficult as possible for him to see their children.

    so that brings me back to Yareally’s point: if a man wants children, he’s got to be able to game their mother. And be prepared to do it for years. The burden of performance that Rollo has written about. Of course even that is no guarantee, but it’s far better than having too little or no game which was the case in this situation.

  40. Agent P

    Exactly… You play the game the same way with or without marriage… It is all about your vale in any case.

    Endless Summer hasnt figured this out yet.

  41. You can give YaReally props, and he deserves them, without shitting on TRM as a whole.

    @Blaximus —

    Yep, precisely.

  42. @having a bad day
    “do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?…”

    I’m aware.

    “which the courts are more likely to do if you are a ‘baby daddy’ than a ‘husband’”

    ARE they really any more likely to do it to you as a baby daddy VS as a husband who has false accusations of abuse/molestation/rape against him these days? Because that’s my argument, that women are encouraged to make those accusations more now and that trend will get worse, look how many women are throwing out accusations against Trump or anyone SJWs don’t like, we live in a culture now where if you don’t like a man or he makes you unhappy you can just throw false accusations against him and expect no punishment.

    So really, objectively speaking, is a guy who’s a “husband” with false accusations of molesting the kids or being violent/dangerous to them etc against him really any better off than a baby daddy?

    A husband who’s held up to the family court as a “great father” and “wonderful amazing man”, sure, THAT guy is better off. But if she was going to say those things about you, you probably wouldn’t be in family court to begin with.

    Again not all divorces…YET. But again, where is the trend heading. Do we see more or less false accusations against men in 2016 than we did 20 years ago, 40 years ago, etc? Do we see it being easier or harder for women (and their peers/social circles/family/etc) to make those accusations stick regardless of evidence now compared to 20, 40 years ago? Where is that trend heading?

    False accusations have become a very common weapon in divorce and in 2016 we live in a society that requires no real evidence to obliterate a man, his career, his reputation, etc with a simple accusation. Women run based on feels and are easy to influence “for the sake of the children” “he’s going to do the same thing to you if you don’t do it first you’ll lose your kids forever” etc etc

    The drapes are on fire and everyone’s acting like the heat in the room is just because it’s sunny out.

    “i agree with this… but is it more likely that she will trigger the ‘system’ if she is already a ‘single mom’…in a pLTR with you?… OR if she will have to ‘give up’ her social status as a ‘wife’ if she ‘makes the call’?… ”

    Why wouldn’t you just call her your wife to everyone you know? Why is no one understanding this? Do you guys all walk around holding your marriage contracts and when you introduce the girl on your arm you have everyone you meet read the marriage contract?

    You just call eachother wife and husband. Change your names and wear rings and have a wedding and hang up wedding photos and everything. She won’t lose any more social status than if you wrote your name on that piece of paper.

    “bc presumably she had enough attraction for you to actually AGREE to the legal contract marriage”

    She doesn’t have to be attracted to you to sign a legal contract marriage. Mitch wants to go marry this old chick that’s stringing him along, she’s not attracted to him but might marry him because it’s a sweet deal for her. She can bail any time she wants and cash in if he gets too repulsive to her. You don’t have to convince me to AGREE to accept a million dollar check lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Hate to bring the bad news, but zero rights is not the bottom. Negative rights – like, “You get to fight your child support case from jail through your lawyer because I put you there for contempt of court” do exist. ”

    Same to you as I’m saying to habd in this reply: are those negative rights any worse than what a “husband” will experience when the court hears that he has a violent temper (sure there’s no evidence of it but look at her cry in court, don’t you believe women???) and she once caught him touching the kids inappropriately that one night even though he denies it you can just TELL he’s a sleazy pedophile you knew it all along didn’t you?

    Seems to me like both of those guys are fucked.

    And again like I say to habd, in a situation where there ARE no false accusations, sure the “husband” is probably in a better situation than the “baby daddy”.

    But what’s divorce in 2016 look like? Are false accusations becoming more or less common than 20, 40+ years ago? Are accusations treated less or more serious as the FI takes over our culture? Does evidence matter less or more in 2016 in these accusations than in the past? Where are these trends heading?

    “Anti-Family court judges tend to presume husband/father “guilty until proven innocent”, they tend to presume unmarried fathers “guilty until proven guilty”.”

    What do they presume of the father who’s accused by a tearful shaking woman of abuse, violent temper, rape and child molestation? Because that’s what’s going to become more and more common since there’s no punishment for it and it increases women’s chances of keeping the kids. Unless someone can provide reason to think that women will start acting more and more benevolent and self-sacrifice for the happiness of a man they’ve lost attraction and gone War Brides 180 on…?

    “until she started helping out at the Battered Woman’s Shelter and then she became much more contentious, much more prone to start fights, much less useful around the house. The mental atmosphere was toxic, and she was just dropping in to do volunteer work a couple of days a week, the average woman who gets checked in will ge the full brainwashing treatment. This is one reason for the false charges of DV that have pretty much become standard in divorce cases.

    Agreed. That’s my point. How much better off is a “husband” who’s viewed as an abuser who may be molesting the kids, than the “baby daddy” really? They’re both so far past fucked that being a “husband” didn’t really come with any benefit.

    When the drapes are on fire is the fire likely to put itself out and knit new drapes? Or is the fire likely to just keep spreading? This search for alternative paths will happen now or when the house has burned down completely and I don’t have to convince anyone of anything because everyone will already be going “holy shit this is a nightmare what do we do about this??”

    Is what I’m saying making sense to you and habd? The “benefits” that come from being a “husband” in family court are no longer “a husband VS a baby daddy”, it’s “a husband who has false accusations of rape/child-molestation against him VS a baby daddy”. THAT’S becoming and going to further become the norm. Weighing those two against eachother, I’d say there’s no real benefit to the “husband” label anymore.

    In a previous era where men/fathers were respected and false accusations weren’t instantly believed etc, ya, sure, being a “husband” carried benefits in family court.

    But now? I dunno, ask Trump how his campaign is going as the news floods everyone 24/7 with how talking about pussy is basically the same as having committed rape. How hard is anyone really looking for evidence before convicting Trump of being guilty of all these accusations? That’s 2016.

    “By all means, figure out how to run a soft harem, or a pLTR, or whatever, but just bear in mind the game is rigged, the system is designed to capture each and every man who has his name on one or more birth certs as “parent”. It’s no accident that Social Security Numbers are routinely assigned at birth now.”

    I’m aware. The plan I’m proposing is not based around trying to get out of supporting your kids or trying to get women pregnant and bail. It’s based around learning game in your early 20s, getting your career together, using your game skills to vet for a decent chick, then having a kid in a pLTR with the understanding that if you slip up or if she gets too much outside attention (2016) she may stray and you may have to enter a court battle (instead of keeping men blind to that possiblity) so they’re mentally prepared for it, but giving them a pLTR arrangement which stokes dread and is more likely to keep their woman attracted enough to not end up IN that court battle compared to the current system which is falling apart with severe punishments only for the men.

    @Agent P
    “To expand on my situation, when I got to RP, I was already really low in my life, depressed, fat, not getting laid, married with two kids, 10 years into a marriage, wife had not worked in 3-4 years essentially due to mental issues. I was running in the red on the regular with a few stellar periods of income, but on balance not sustainable.”

    How much of that would have happened if you had a pLTR? Would you have let yourself get fat if you knew that you could bang that sexy waitress you buy your lunch from that flirts with you, guilt-free? Would you have been as depressed/frustrated and had as much strife/resentment in your relationship if you had been getting laid on the side when your wife stopped putting out? Would it have been easier to focus on your work if you got your balls drained by a cute waitress on a business trip now and then?

    How depressed and stressed would you be if you were still in shape, getting your dick sucked by cute waitresses on business trips, still feeling like an attractive badass, and could just treat your wife like a great roommate you love and get along with (because you’re already having your sexual needs taken care of on the side, with her blessing and no guilt on your end), and if in the back of your head you knew that if things got bad enough, you COULD still “walk in five minutes flat” without paying alimony?

    And how would those changes have affected your wife’s attraction to you? We know that down the road on your current path your solution was to basically mimic all of that and her reaction was to sit up straight all of a sudden…so what if you had simply not deviated from the red pill in the first place? What if you had done what you’re doing now, but from day one, and simply not stopped doing it?

    What sparks and keeps attraction when you first meet is the same thing that sparks and keeps attraction when you implement MMSL/red pill 10 years into a deadbedroom…so why do we pretend like those same things won’t just spark and keep attraction if you just DO those things, the whole time, through the whole relationship?

    A legal contract isn’t required to do any part of the MMSL MAP red pill etc plan that we give to deadbedroom failing marriage guys. And it will come with progressively less and less benefits in family court as I explained above. All it is is 100% risk on the man’s side, and it creates a situation where it’s significantly more difficult to keep attraction stoked (outcome dependence, deadbedrooms, rewards for her if she decides to pull the plug, etc), for no real benefit.

    Props on turning your situation around in general btw lol

    The point of my discussion is simply to avoid creating more of you in the first place (no offense). I’d like to see less and less men ending up in your situation and coming to us for help. Sure, we can bandage the wound, but why not teach men a course in how to safely handle a saw so they quit slicing into their arm when they don’t have to?

    @Endless Summer
    “I bet there are a lot of us lurking OMGs here. If they are anything like me, they want to hear more from yareally and less from argumentative posters.”

    <3 Thanks for chiming in. I know you guys are here, just like I know there are lurker newbies here and lurker young single guys who are thinking about this stuff here. That's the only reason I keep writing this stuff. 'cause I was a lurker too back when I got into PUA and I was taking in a lot of information to think about.

    I know I'll never convince these OMGs if I haven't by now, because they're either deliberately trying to not see my point or simply literally incapable of it (solipsism, OMG stubbornness, ego-investment, YaReally-hate, whatever lol)

    It's 100% for you guys. I legitimately thought we could all have an interesting discussion about the topic and the OMGs would chip in their old man wisdom and we'd all brainstorm ideas and maybe start creating something that seriously changes the direction things are going in and gives men hope.

    I simply didn't expect to spend 500 pages trying to justify why the topic should even be allowed to be discussed, to red pill men, who support men learning the red pill and learning game and increasing their odds and lowering their risks in every other area of life except this one.

    Like I don't get why they can't even just not participate in the topic for a few posts so we can get some momentum going, or ask some questions. It's just instantly SHUT UP STUPID YOUNG GUY YOU'RE STUPID WE KNOW EVERYTHING ALREADY AHHHH!!!

    It's like the very IDEA of it goes so hard against their conditioning that they have to immediately lash out the second the topic even comes up. It's fascinating, honestly lol Like posting about PUA on a feminist board or Trump on a Hillary board etc

  43. @Random Angeleno
    “Have to remember in all this discussion about marriage vs pLTR that Parental Alienation Syndrome is a thing. Very vividly described by scribblerg awhile back, iirc. Search google for more details.”

    Was scribblerg, a “husband” really any better off than if he had been a “baby daddy”, in terms of how that all worked out? I dunno, but I could make a pretty good case that he isn’t. He might as WELL have been just a “baby daddy” legally, and just done everything exactly the same…how much worse could it really get for him than the brutal situation he’s in with his daughter now?

    “Just heard about PAS again in a case involving someone I know.”
    “Which included that phrase PAS plus accusations of child abuse the ex-wife leveled not only at this guy but also the brother and their mother.”

    This is what I mean, the benefits to being a “husband” have been taken away by the false accusation “men are bad” “use the kids as weapons” “believe the woman no matter what” culture where these shitty tactics that are becoming more and more commonplace…so is there really any benefit to being a “husband” anymore?

    Like I say, in the old days where a man/father was a more respected position, maybe that “husband” label held more power. But in 2016? THIS is becoming the norm. Because why WOULDN’T it? There’s NO CONSEQUENCE ONLY BENEFIT for women to do this and for divorce lawyers etc to coach them to do it. It’s 100% beneficial to them, either it works and they get the kids or it doesn’t work and their pussypass gets them off the hook for consequences of doing it.

    So why WOULD it get better instead of worse? Why wouldn’t the burning drapes spread to the carpet?

    “they tell me about the pending divorce (she filed) and the games she is playing against him which included making it as difficult as possible for him to see their children.”

    The way some guys talk it’s like they think being a “husband” will prevent this. It won’t. These false accusations and dirty tactics from the women and their lawyers (social circles, friends, family, internet advice forums, etc) have nothing to do with the label of husband. They have to do with attraction, once she goes War Bride on you, you are dead to her and her focus will be keeping the kids close.

    So why don’t we stop letting guys think that signing up for the legal role of “husband” will give them any more protection than a pLTR, when a pLTR is actively triggering all the things that MMSL MPO “walk in 5 min” etc trigger when we want guys to save their marriage, except EASIER to execute with more incentive and less reward for her to leave etc?

    “if a man wants children, he’s got to be able to game their mother. And be prepared to do it for years.”

    Exactly my point. It all comes down to triggering her hypergamy.

    We know from the field that it’s easier to trigger hypergamy when you’re inducing dread, jealousy, preselection, have reason to keep your charisma and social skills up, are getting laid if she’s not putting out, can be your own MPO with less consequence, know you have less of a saw blade dangling above your head in terms of alimony, have less outcome dependence, etc, because those are the EXACT SOLUTIONS we recommend guys execute to save their failing marriages.

    So why not just run the red pill to the hilt instead of stopping halfway to change the game from Easy to Hard mode so we don’t have all these guys coming here asking how to save their failing marriages before they get divorce raped? Why not just have them keep playing on Easy mode so they keep attraction and don’t end up needing help or needing to deal with family court in the first place because their woman stays attracted?

  44. “I know I’ll never convince these OMGs if I haven’t by now, because they’re either deliberately trying to not see my point or simply literally incapable of it (solipsism, OMG stubbornness, ego-investment, YaReally-hate, whatever lol)”

    Or, a bad and unrealistic ” plan ” because the assumptions are mostly false?

    % guys have said mostly the same thing to you about this, and you just want to say that all 5 of us are trying not to see your point ( even though EVERYONE SEES it very clearly ). and everyone is pointing to the legal ramifications of your original “plan”, and you just won’t get it. Now it’s women making false accusations in court. There will always be an excuse. So who’s ego invested in an argument?

    Ya, c’mon man. I HATE bickering with you. Really, no shit. Speak about realty man. We’re addressing the current facts on the ground right now. Kfg has said numerous ( more than I can count ) times that the plan won’t work unless you can change the LAWS. Or, not be named as the father.

    Go talk to 50 divorced guys with kids, then go talk to 50 unmarried guys with kids and child support. Don’t assume fantasy stuff, talk to dudes on the ground. I know I do.

    I’ve asked 3 lawyers recently ( and I’m waiting to hear from one more currently ), and guys with normal or little assets don’t get killed with alimony. One lawyer said about 10% of men have to pay.

    In fact, a guy came here during the debate and said exactly that.

    I don’t pay.

    2 guys right here at my job don’t pay.

    Every divorced man I know, save for 1 guy, does not pay alimony.

    Yes, as an actual divorced guy, I can tell you that divorce is awful. No question. But as a man that knows actual real, living men dealing with child support, that the state is ruthless, and whether you want to believe it or not, the state is HEAVILY biased against baby daddys.

    So cut out the obfuscations man. It’s not ego, or stubbornness, or YaReally hate, or solipsism… It’s just the current facts on the ground.

    You want it to be the same, but it’s not.

    I actually would like baby daddys to have the exact same rights as married guys, but they don’t normally, unless they have 6 figures to hire an army of lawyers and spend years and years in courts.

    … hey, that sounds like a bad divorce….hmmmm…

    There is no way to minimize the risks in the fashion you want to do, as far as THE SYSTEM is concerned. Kids introduce you into the system. PERIOD. The risks rise as a baby daddy. PERIOD.

    Notice, guys that haven’t been divorced, or even married ( except for my man Andy ) are the one’s that are in agreement. You want to just write off the ” OMG’s” ( I’m starting to hate that term because it’s being used as a derogative ) who have experience, know actual divorced people, know men in the CS system – you just want to shut your eyes to that.

    But everything I just said has been said a thousand time during the ” discussion ” already. You just want to go around it and ignore it. Without changes in the system/laws, most guys that attempt to do what you propose will be thoroughly fucked in the ass, while thinking they’ve beat the odds by avoiding the legal noose.

    Court is a bad way to fail.

    ?end rant #2

    Going back to monk mode….

  45. Yareally

    I see the strawman du jour is domestic abuse… Ok.

    You know there are still courts and witnesses and testimony and perjury and all…

    No of course you don’t…. You will try anything. To make your ever increasingly strained point.

    Sad.

  46. “My point was I specifically took the attitude I at that point had nothing to lose, so I played the game that way. Just like the movie Heat, be ready to walk in five minutes flat no matter what.

    It was liberating. eventually she figured out that was my approach as well and it sure made her sit up straight all of a sudden. It all comes down to being my own MPO etc.

    my conclusion, if you are really RP, in any relationship, you mentally need to be ready to walk almost no matter what on the girl to maintain ultimate male freedom. Might it mean giving up everything you strived to build? Sure as shit yes. It takes a kind of cruel discipline to be able to do that, but it empowers you a great deal, it sure as shit straightens out a bunch of internals if you live your life thinking you already have one foot out the door at all times. Those internals reflect back to the wife and all of a sudden she understand you are not going to suffer and shennanigans from her.”

    Well, I certainly have been conspicuously silent in the latest discussion with HABD, KFG, Blaximus and Sentient. But I’m still paying attention in class and you guys are great instructors.I cosign the sentiments of the OMG’s. I haven’t found anything to disagree with my cohort about.

    I’ve never actually been liberated by being able to want to walk away. That is nothing I have spent time thinking about. But I have used mindset improvement to be able to say NO BIG DEAL if she (my wife) walks away. I’m prepared for that mentally, physically and financially. It is not something I need to spend time thinking about.

    I’ve never had more control over my married relationship than I do now. And feel totally comfortable about not being in control of her. The important thing is that I am in control of my thoughts and emotions. It ended up being me, not her after all.

    I embrace living on the edge, even with the risk of falling off the cliff. It’s about being alive and adventurous without falling off the cliff.

    I still contend under Sentient’s Frame of Being that monogamy or non-monogamy, marriage or no marriage is a false flag. A red herring. It is irrelevant to a man having agency after red pill awareness and embracing game. Learned Game is a godsend. I never had any doubts whatsoever about that.

    “Maintaining ultimate male freedom” is indeed the crux of the agency and sexual strategy for men. And that is a by product of an abundance mentality. And that is a downstream by product of Mastery.

    And at one time Sentient said that running toward your purpose and destiny and your relationship and your children is more important (and more difficult) than running away from it.

    That is what I have done for the past three years. And it is exhilarating.

    PUA is about mitigating risk. But PUA Game is also a platform for Mastery. It is not paradoxical that once Mastery is accomplished, that risk becomes less of a factor. That barriers are lowered. That instead of being a fly banging into a window, over and over, a fly can also breeze through the adjacent open window. Life is just not as difficult when one’s mindset is better and he has Mastery. The one big stumbling block to mastery is desire to become masterful and time and reference experiences where a guy actually tried. (Cue up Teddy Roosevelt’s “Man in the Arena” speech.)

    Relationship game and having children is about having hand and being able to handle the risk without having fear of risk. Not because you are mitigating the risk at every turn, but that you are Antifragile enough, through experience, to be able to deal with the risk. And because you have set yourself up for low downside and infinite upside. Mitigating All Risk leads to limiting upside.
    And that’s not “hold my beer and watch this keyboard jockeying” It’s OMG having experience life talking. It’s not bad stuff waiting to happen.

  47. When it comes to determining child support arrangements, unmarried parents have some unique considerations to keep in mind. Already-complex issues like visitation rights, paternity and time shared between a father and child become more problematic than more “traditional” cases.

    Unmarried Parents Face Same Child Support Obligations

    Non-custodial parents, regardless of marital status, are required to pay child support to their custodial parent counterparts until their minor children reach age 18. If, at age 18, the child is an unmarried, full-time high school student, then the child support responsibility resumes until the minor child reaches age 19 or completes her senior year of high school, whichever event occurs first.

    Partners in a common law relationship may feel they are similar to married couples. However, such couples do not benefit from core legal protections afforded to married spouses. Divorce laws do not apply to such relationships, even when children are born into the relationship.

    Unmarried Parents Lack Key Protections

    The implications of not having these legal protections are huge. For instance, just because a mother has provided childcare for an infant from birth does not ensure that she will have visitation rights regarding that child after separation from the child’s father.

    The issue of paternity is no longer assumed outside of marriage. Even when a man is named on a child’s birth certificate as the father, there is no presumption of his paternity when the mother and father are not married to one another.

    When an unmarried mother seeks to obtain child support, she must first legally establish paternity. The child’s father can comply voluntarily, or the mother must file suit to establish paternity through DNA or genetic testing. In involuntary cases, the court orders the father to submit to genetic testing and if paternity is established, the court will enter a child support order requiring that father to make support payments, just as in the typical divorce.

    Unmarried Fathers Face Harsh Support Defaults

    When unmarried parents separate from one another without first securing a court order as to child custody and support, there are certain default provisions made with regard to the father’s rights and responsibilities in child custody and support matters. In the event of no court order and no child support hearing having been conducted, the legal system’s default provisions dictate the following:
    •Time shared between a father and child is established at 0 percent. This default percentage is set regardless of whether the father spends time with the child.
    •Federal child support guidelines for payment for 0 percent time spent are automatically higher than state counterparts. Often, that increase is $100 to $200 more per month. There is no requirement that federal and state child support levels must be the same.
    •Fathers who avoid paying child support are subject to legal prosecution by their local district attorney’s office (or the functional equivalent in their jurisdictions).
    •A mother can change any type of visitation agreement at any time, except visitation agreements made by or subject to court order.

    http://www.attorneys.com/child-support/child-support-considerations-for-unmarried-parents

    ….Unwed fathers have rights and responsibilities like any other fathers do. But given the lack of a legal marriage between the parents, establishing those rights and enforcing those obligations become infinitely more complicated. Men who find themselves as unwed parents, whether intentionally or not, need to take appropriate steps to ensure their parental rights and to meet their parental obligations. It is not a matter to be taken lightly when the well-being of a child is stake.

    And…

    http://www.abcactionnews.com/marketplace/law-tv/five-important-things-that-unwed-fathers-need-to-know

  48. Once more for emphasis –

    Partners in a common law relationship may feel they are similar to married couples. However, such couples do not benefit from core legal protections afforded to married spouses. Divorce laws do not apply to such relationships, even when children are born into the relationship.

  49. “So why not just run the red pill to the hilt instead of stopping halfway to change the game from Easy to Hard mode so we don’t have all these guys coming here asking how to save their failing marriages before they get divorce raped? Why not just have them keep playing on Easy mode so they keep attraction and don’t end up needing help or needing to deal with family court in the first place because their woman stays attracted?”

    There is a reason why Married Red Pill guys on Reddit call MRP the red pill on hard mode.

    Easy mode is mitigating all risk. And that dampens Upside. Including good generational offspring.

    Parenting via red pill is super hard mode.

    PUA is not a strictly red pill discipline. Understanding red pill (awareness) is a component of PUA tactically, but red pill goes beyond PUA. It also incorporates masculine self improvement in addition to enlightened self interest. That is part of the divide between OMG’s and the Puerarchy guys. Puerarchy is about enlightened self interest without masculine self improvement. Puerarchy is about not giving a shit about running toward OMG stuff. OMG stuff includes good parenting and good children. That’s not a slight on the Puerach’s. It is an endorsement on how to not fake good kids.

    Witness: the goal of red pill is to be 24/7 alpha. That won’t happen in real life. But it is actually the goal. (Idealistic goals are rarely met. And that is OK. It is the desire toward the goal that is important. The man having a purpose and a pursuit. Where there is desire, there is a possibility of Mastery. )

    Paradoxically, if you can strive toward that goal, then you can actually raise children as a greater Beta, lesser Alpha. And we have Julien RSD videos (under the Julien Himself Channel) to assert that 100% is not required, and in fact is not desired by Hypergamous women. She wants her dual strategy, but won’t actually find a man that embodies both, up until the point the a mother of children actually does find him. It is a man’s job to make her covertly feel that she has found both in one man. It is better she discovers this herself, than you explain it to her. Acta Non Verba wise.

  50. @ mersonia

    Yeah. Because ” hard mode “.

    Lol….

    Hey Rollo, do you have an ” Easy ” button for Red Pill?

  51. ” Lets just try to squash the conversation …”

    Don’t tell me….

    I get accused of trying to squash the conversation all the time.

    Damn facts…

  52. “Lets just try to squash the conversation and send men back to what we know isn’t working instead of attempting to help work through issue at hand….”

    Let’s just try to continue the conversation and propel men forward into not wishing how things ought to be instead of how they are. If things aren’t working, then make them work.

    No one is trying to squash the conversation. Or not advance men’s strategy. To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous.

    Do you even manosphere, Bro?

    The issue at hand is having hand.

  53. “Your living proof that being married doesn’t automatically give you hand.”

    Exactly.

    Being married doesn’t give you Hand.

    BTW you spelled you’re wrong.

  54. @Blaximus: at this point I’m convinced I gave it a solid try over 1 year, so I’m mostly thinking of getting out.

    When I started I was mostly thinking of turning it around without wanting to get out, then I figured out I need to be ready to get out in order to have a chance of turning it around and focused on gaming the wife, but by now I’ve been thinking more about details separating assets than whatever else I can try to game my wife.

  55. Good luck to you all but I must say that the most depressing manosphere phrase for me is;

    “gaming the wife”

    It’s right up there with, “This is the captain. Brace for impact,” in terms of immediate, visceral depression. It just brings me down right away. The very thought of having to put my mind and energy into “gaming the wife” is so gloomy.

  56. @Kaminsky: I’m obviously not in a position of great expertise here, but Rollo has addressed this many times. You can’t escape the burden of performance. The realistic end goal is that you internalize and attain mastery that “gaming the wife” is passive rather than active. At that stage you don’t have to put your mind and energy into it, you just do it almost without thinking, it is part of who you are.

    Obviously I’m nowhere near there, but maybe that gives you “a new hope”.

  57. You’re both right. And of course it’s all true. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a downer of a phrase. It’s a very gritty, real concept, like ‘One day we all die.’ That’s all I mean.

  58. “gaming the wife”

    It’s right up there with, “This is the captain. Brace for impact,” in terms of immediate, visceral depression. It just brings me down right away. The very thought of having to put my mind and energy into “gaming the wife” is so gloomy.

    Just how it is, Kaminsky. It makes no sense being depressed about reality — there is no difference between the need to game your wife and the fact that there are clouds in the sky. Same thing. Makes no sense to get depressed about, either way.

    Old set of books no longer applies. Burden of Performance ends when they put you in the box and not at all before then. Wives are girlfriends who have legal benefits, that’s all — they need to be gamed just the same, and all of your life until you’re dead. Accept that the way you accept the fact of gravity or clouds in the sky and you’ll be fine. It’s just how it is.

  59. “You’re both right. And of course it’s all true. Still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a downer of a phrase. It’s a very gritty, real concept, like ‘One day we all die.’ That’s all I mean.”

    That’s your grief phases pushing on you. That’s normal to have those feelings passively come on you. It takes time and distance to work through the stages.

    Those feelings are normal when you are in the incompetent phases of mastery.

    Your two phrases “game the wife” and “One day we all die” actually make me psyched up for the game, liberated to play, feel at the very least consciously competent to play the game. Get better at playing, get real good and you will feel different about it.

    This issue is what “proper” Game Mindset is for. You can train yourself to approach these supposed hurdles with less effort and less dread. To be in the Michael Jordan’s “in-the-zone” of performance.

    See what stage you are in and work through the stages:

    http://grief.com/the-five-stages/

    ACCEPTANCE

    “Acceptance is often confused with the notion of being “all right” or “OK” with what has happened. This is not the case. Most people don’t ever feel OK or all right about the loss of a loved one blue pill ideals. This stage is about accepting the reality that our loved one is (Meta)-physically gone and recognizing that this new reality is the permanent reality.

    We will never like this reality or make it OK, but eventually we accept it. We learn to live with it. It is the new norm with which we must learn to live. We must try to live now in a world where our loved one blue pill fake Cypher steak eating world is missing.

    In resisting this new norm, at first many people want to maintain life as it was before a loved one died you swallowed the red pill. In time, through bits and pieces of acceptance, however, we see that we cannot maintain the past intact. It has been forever changed and we must readjust. We must learn to reorganize roles, re-assign them to others or take them on ourselves.

    Finding acceptance may be just having more good days than bad ones. As we begin to live again and enjoy our life, we often feel that in doing so, we are betraying our loved one old blue pill ideals. We can never replace what has been lost, but we can make new connections, new meaningful relationships, new inter-dependencies.

    Instead of denying our feelings, we listen to our needs; we move, we change, we grow, we evolve. We may start to reach out to others and become involved in their lives. We invest in our friendships and in our relationship with ourselves. We begin to live again, but we cannot do so until we have given grief its time.”

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/09/29/a-new-hope/

  60. Kaminsky

    Unless one had an arranged marriage, they were gaming your wife to get her in the first place, whether they consciously knew it or not.

    Women are absolutely right though when they trot out the whole “catch the bus and sit down” analogy about guys stopping their “efforts” once they get the girl. THAT is the first step towards betaization…

    And so in ANY LTR you must keep the game going or you reach the same end stage – LOSS of attraction.

    Not being “legally” married is not a cure for this any more than being legally married… it is bad information and false hope that magically because you have theoretically lower costs to leave that somehow this will equate to keeping attraction… failure looks the same in all scenarios… loss of attraction and your value diminishing.

  61. “it is bad information and false hope that magically because you have theoretically lower costs to leave that somehow this will equate to keeping attraction”

    wtf, now I have to misrepresent this, this is too much

  62. Well I’m not even married. So that throws a money wrench into the whole conversation, I guess. Maybe if I were married and committed to a marriage, I would just look at ‘gaming the wife’ as part of the life I chose. While still single, it’s not exactly an exciting concept; it’s reality, truth etc but still not exciting. For a single guy, marriage already seems like a massive sacrifice. Just by giving up so much of your life, you feel like you’ve already done all that you have to do, then comes the call for non-stop gaming. It sounds to me like a guy who donates 100K to Red Cross and then Red Cross is like; “Okay. We got the hundred grand. Now you start working for us every weekend.” “What!?? I already made my sacrifice. I’m already the good guy here.” Nope. You just added a bunch of other obligations to your life by making a noble sacrifice.

    Don’t worry about me and my comments on this. It seems like it might kick off the single vs. married back and forth that everyone’s trying to avoid right now.

    I understand you all loud and clear that if you do choose marriage, gaming is an absolute necessity. No excuses. It’s part of the deal. I don’t disagree with anything here. If you did get to the effortless zen state of it then it’s likely very satisfying.

  63. Speaking of gaming the LTR…

    Yesterday, wife is anxious about today’s party at our house with bunch of kids and their ‘burb moms. After dropping kids @ piano lessons I take her a few blocks down to the pub. She starts unloading about the stresses of her made-woman lifestyle. The party, the laundry, blah blah.

    Half way through her first pumpkin oktoberfest ale, I start giving her the soft lazer eyes. She prattles as girls do just living in their heads occasionally looking at me. i don’t break the eyes and remain silent.

    She snaps out of her narrative, looks at me for a few seconds…then puts both her hand on my face, saying, you gotta stop doing that. She drops her hands, I lean in to her neck and lightly nuzzle her mastoid area with a slow sexualized respiration. After 5 seconds or so I pull off stare ahead with my beer and she’s done talking about the stress. She starts talking about the bar and such, happier, positive.

    Banged later on the rumpus room pool table.

  64. @ Ehintellect

    Bravo. This kind of thing moves from second nature, to first nature. Or at least it’s supposed to.

    It’s not about wives ” blah blah-ing “, but about a husband ( or boyfriend ) knowing to to change her mood and redirect emotion.

    Maybe it would help more men if this were included in wedding vows…

    ” Do you take this woman as your lawful, wedded wife, do you promise to pass shit tests with ease, and understand, control and guide her emotions in a masculine manner to the benefit of you both?…etc “.

  65. SJF

    And at one time Sentient said that running toward your purpose and destiny and your relationship and your children is more important (and more difficult) than running away from it.

    Thanks for bringing this up… and it is broader than relationship. It is the essence of seizing your future – the capital D dynamic in the DPA Triad… It is HARD to move towards risk… it is HARD to even THINK about it. Sooooo much easier to try and avoid.

    Here is a story from an old book that hits upon this and themes of Mastery, Authenticity, Identity and doing the HARD work… Let those who have ears hear (GBFM shout out)…

    1 Samuel 17New International Version (NIV)

    David and Goliath
    17 Now the Philistines gathered their forces for war and assembled at Sokoh in Judah. They pitched camp at Ephes Dammim, between Sokoh and Azekah. 2 Saul and the Israelites assembled and camped in the Valley of Elah and drew up their battle line to meet the Philistines. 3 The Philistines occupied one hill and the Israelites another, with the valley between them.

    4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.[a] 5 He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels[b]; 6 on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. 7 His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels.[c] His shield bearer went ahead of him.

    8 Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, “Why do you come out and line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and are you not the servants of Saul? Choose a man and have him come down to me. 9 If he is able to fight and kill me, we will become your subjects; but if I overcome him and kill him, you will become our subjects and serve us.” 10 Then the Philistine said, “This day I defy the armies of Israel! Give me a man and let us fight each other.” 11 On hearing the Philistine’s words, Saul and all the Israelites were dismayed and terrified.

    12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite named Jesse, who was from Bethlehem in Judah. Jesse had eight sons, and in Saul’s time he was very old. 13 Jesse’s three oldest sons had followed Saul to the war: The firstborn was Eliab; the second, Abinadab; and the third, Shammah. 14 David was the youngest. The three oldest followed Saul, 15 but David went back and forth from Saul to tend his father’s sheep at Bethlehem.

    16 For forty days the Philistine came forward every morning and evening and took his stand.

    17 Now Jesse said to his son David, “Take this ephah[d] of roasted grain and these ten loaves of bread for your brothers and hurry to their camp. 18 Take along these ten cheeses to the commander of their unit. See how your brothers are and bring back some assurance[e] from them. 19 They are with Saul and all the men of Israel in the Valley of Elah, fighting against the Philistines.”

    20 Early in the morning David left the flock in the care of a shepherd, loaded up and set out, as Jesse had directed. He reached the camp as the army was going out to its battle positions, shouting the war cry. 21 Israel and the Philistines were drawing up their lines facing each other. 22 David left his things with the keeper of supplies, ran to the battle lines and asked his brothers how they were. 23 As he was talking with them, Goliath, the Philistine champion from Gath, stepped out from his lines and shouted his usual defiance, and David heard it. 24 Whenever the Israelites saw the man, they all fled from him in great fear.

    25 Now the Israelites had been saying, “Do you see how this man keeps coming out? He comes out to defy Israel. The king will give great wealth to the man who kills him. He will also give him his daughter in marriage and will exempt his family from taxes in Israel.”

    26 David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”

    27 They repeated to him what they had been saying and told him, “This is what will be done for the man who kills him.”

    28 When Eliab, David’s oldest brother, heard him speaking with the men, he burned with anger at him and asked, “Why have you come down here? And with whom did you leave those few sheep in the wilderness? I know how conceited you are and how wicked your heart is; you came down only to watch the battle.”

    29 “Now what have I done?” said David. “Can’t I even speak?” 30 He then turned away to someone else and brought up the same matter, and the men answered him as before. 31 What David said was overheard and reported to Saul, and Saul sent for him.

    32 David said to Saul, “Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine; your servant will go and fight him.”

    33 Saul replied, “You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth.”

    34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The Lord who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.”

    Saul said to David, “Go, and the Lord be with you.”

    38 Then Saul dressed David in his own tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. 39 David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.

    “I cannot go in these,” he said to Saul, “because I am not used to them.” So he took them off. 40 Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.

    41 Meanwhile, the Philistine, with his shield bearer in front of him, kept coming closer to David. 42 He looked David over and saw that he was little more than a boy, glowing with health and handsome, and he despised him. 43 He said to David, “Am I a dog, that you come at me with sticks?” And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. 44 “Come here,” he said, “and I’ll give your flesh to the birds and the wild animals!”

    45 David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This day the Lord will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. 47 All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”

    48 As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. 49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.

    50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.

    51 David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.

    When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. 52 Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines to the entrance of Gath[f] and to the gates of Ekron. Their dead were strewn along the Shaaraim road to Gath and Ekron. 53 When the Israelites returned from chasing the Philistines, they plundered their camp.

    54 David took the Philistine’s head and brought it to Jerusalem; he put the Philistine’s weapons in his own tent.

    55 As Saul watched David going out to meet the Philistine, he said to Abner, commander of the army, “Abner, whose son is that young man?”

    Abner replied, “As surely as you live, Your Majesty, I don’t know.”

    56 The king said, “Find out whose son this young man is.”

    57 As soon as David returned from killing the Philistine, Abner took him and brought him before Saul, with David still holding the Philistine’s head.

    58 “Whose son are you, young man?” Saul asked him.

    David said, “I am the son of your servant Jesse of Bethlehem.”

  66. As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. 49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.”

  67. First, attack it on the state level by contacting state reps. I think it’s a numbers game. The FI isn’t really all that strong numbers wise, but the few have much legislative pull because men don’t fight back. Guys normally find out after they get shafted.

    Second, attack it federally. No court should be allowed to violate constitutional rights. What would the Supreme Court have to say about this? ( I gotta look that up ).

    Just seeing this note now.

    The Court tends to not get involved much in family law other than in the obvious cases like gay marriage, miscegenation and so on. The details of who gets what and so on are not seen as raising constitutional issues. Furthermore, in most states, the family courts are “courts of equity”, rather than “courts of law” — the difference is that courts of law generally follow the legal rules, with some narrow exceptions for very hard cases, and let the chips fall where they may, whereas courts of equity are designed to “do the right thing” and not be so wedded to fixed legal rules. The difference is important because in courts of equity you have far fewer constitutional rights — almost none, really. That’s why family courts operate largely in secret, have almost entirely sealed records, routinely hold hearings “ex parte”, don’t ever use juries, rarely, if ever, issue reasoned opinions and so on. It’s a separate legal system where the constitution basically doesn’t apply for the most part, in practice.

    The best way to attack this is in the states, because these are state courts. You have to get the states to rewrite their rules regarding family law and the family law courts. naturally this is very hard, especially if you phrase it as justice for fathers or something like that, because that’s a non-starter politically in our culture. The leading organization that lobbies for these changes actually changed its name a few years ago from “Fathers and Families” to the “National Parents Organization” precisely because legislators didn’t want to have anything to do with something remotely approaching advocacy for fathers — fathers are pretty much a hated category in our society, and politically it was a dead end. It has to be advocated in a more neutral way.

    Personally I don’t think we will see many changes here until such time as many more women get bitten by the system by being the provider role that the system chews up and spits out. We aren’t that close to that being the case, really, so I don’t expect any substantial change to any of the rules anytime soon. Even if you find a sympathetic legislator – which is hard enough in itself to do – the issue of fathers is so politically unpopular that almost none of them are willing to use any political capital at all for it.

  68. “There is no way to minimize the risks in the fashion you want to do, as far as THE SYSTEM is concerned. Kids introduce you into the system. PERIOD. The risks rise as a baby daddy. PERIOD.”

    @Blaximus

    If there are different systems, with different strengths, weaknesses and consequences then logically one of them will have the minimum risk. All of the options are high risk, but one of them will have the least risk. Maybe there isn’t a one size fits all answer. There probably isn’t, but that doesn’t mean that a pLTR isn’t a viable option, and one that I think a lot of guys would probably entertain now and in the future.

    “Puerarchy is about enlightened self interest without masculine self improvement. ”
    @SJF

    Your posting has been much better. Props. But, how exactly did you come to this conclusion? Tyler, Julien, pretty much EVERYONE these days maintains that you need to have a mission outside of the women in your life. Are you saying that helping fellow men achieve their potential WITH women and pushing them towards enlightenment isn’t a suitable “masculine” mission?

    “And at one time Sentient said that running toward your purpose and destiny and your relationship and your children is more important (and more difficult) than running away from it.”

    What if a man’s purpose and destiny are incompatible with his relationship and children. Will you support the man that will leave his relationship and children for his purpose and destiny? Kids are great, but they aren’t everything and at the end of the day they may not factor in to who you are.

  69. Andy

    “What if a man’s purpose and destiny are incompatible with his relationship and children. Will you support the man that will leave his relationship and children for his purpose and destiny? ”

    Alpha is amoral. There still are consequences though.

    EhIntellect

    “BTW: what’s “Excellent FR on you Day 3,657! ” ?”

    PUA Game often involves closing the deal via structured meetings, i.e. first meet is Day 1, second is day 2 etc… FR = field report…

  70. “If there are different systems, with different strengths, weaknesses and consequences then logically one of them will have the minimum risk.”

    You can play Russian Roulette with one round in the cyclinder, or one round and five blanks.
    The latter case may be the riskiest, as there is an off chance that you live.

    “Will you support the man that will leave his relationship and children for his purpose and destiny?”

    This is next best shot you’ve got if you’ve already been named as the father. Accept the initial child support order without complaint, do not fight for custody, walk out free of everything other than what the court has specifically ordered. Do not sign any agreement that is not actually what you wish. If they are after your signature, it’s because they need it to do what they want to do. It means they have not, technically, ordered it, you have volunteered for it.

    You will likely never see your children again, and if you do, they will likely hate your guts.

  71. Andy

    2 Samuel 11New International Version (NIV)

    David and Bathsheba
    11 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.

    2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”

    6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.

    10 David was told, “Uriah did not go home.” So he asked Uriah, “Haven’t you just come from a military campaign? Why didn’t you go home?”

    11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents,[a] and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”

    12 Then David said to him, “Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David’s invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master’s servants; he did not go home.

    14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”

    16 So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. 17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.

    18 Joab sent David a full account of the battle. 19 He instructed the messenger: “When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, 20 the king’s anger may flare up, and he may ask you, ‘Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn’t you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? 21 Who killed Abimelek son of Jerub-Besheth[b]? Didn’t a woman drop an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?’ If he asks you this, then say to him, ‘Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.’”

    22 The messenger set out, and when he arrived he told David everything Joab had sent him to say. 23 The messenger said to David, “The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance of the city gate. 24 Then the archers shot arrows at your servants from the wall, and some of the king’s men died. Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.”

    25 David told the messenger, “Say this to Joab: ‘Don’t let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.’ Say this to encourage Joab.”

    26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son.

    But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.

    Nathan Rebukes David
    12 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.

    4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”

    5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”

    7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

    11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

    13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

    Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

    15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth[b] on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

    18 On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”

    19 David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.

    “Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”

    20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

    21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

    22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

    24 Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and made love to her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon. The Lord loved him; 25 and because the Lord loved him, he sent word through Nathan the prophet to name him Jedidiah.[c]

    26 Meanwhile Joab fought against Rabbah of the Ammonites and captured the royal citadel. 27 Joab then sent messengers to David, saying, “I have fought against Rabbah and taken its water supply. 28 Now muster the rest of the troops and besiege the city and capture it. Otherwise I will take the city, and it will be named after me.”

    29 So David mustered the entire army and went to Rabbah, and attacked and captured it. 30 David took the crown from their king’s[d] head, and it was placed on his own head. It weighed a talent[e] of gold, and it was set with precious stones. David took a great quantity of plunder from the city 31 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes, and he made them work at brickmaking.[f] David did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then he and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.

  72. In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.”

    Unintended consequences via risk avoidance…

  73. @Andy

    I don’t include Tyler or Julien RSD as Peurarchs and I think they are fantastic role models for young men of any persuasion. They run a huge successful business. They moved past the Puerarchy stage. They are men in full.

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/25/for-better-or-worse/comment-page-8/#comment-171813

    I formerly said (in admittedly garbled fashion, the link above has more context): “Despite what I think for SYG’s the guy to look to is what JulienRSD more so than Tyler is doing with his life in real life. That guy seems composed and orderly in his JulienHimself Youtube Channel. And he has the instincts to settle with a girl of his pick, because of game skills, and he advocates for not actually being Alpha 24/7, but employing compromise with a girl. To actually have a complementary relationship. He brings himself and she brings value and they have a LTR if so desired by him. (Not to say Tyler is nihilistic. He is not. And not to say he isn’t doing well for his lifestyle.)”

    “Are you saying that helping fellow men achieve their potential WITH women and pushing them towards enlightenment isn’t a suitable “masculine” mission?”

    Not at all.

    (And just to be forthright: I was speaking of YaReally. And no, Ya, we don’t have to go back and forth about this. Everything you have done up till now is the Puerach life. And it’s not that there is anything wrong with that for you.)

    And that is not to say that I should be judgmental about the Puerarchy. I shouldn’t. I also want them on team Masculine Imperative for men’s sexual strategy in the manosphere. I don’t want the back and forth either, putting us at odd’s with what the real goal is: red pill sexual strategy for the Masculine Imperative.

    If there are two things I advocate for here, one is good, competent relationship Game if a man so desires a LTR, and two is raising children well if a man wants or has children. Game may be best practiced as amoral, but I revert to ideology and moralism when it comes to children. Because it is best for them. (I don’t want shitty little kids running around, they might turn into shitty adults.)

    Of course, as Ian Ironwood says: “It’s perplexing for conservatives in the Manosphere because the Puerarchy seems to be thumbing its nose as traditional Conservative values of hard work and ambition, and succumbing to the pleasures of the flesh and the decadence of the West they shun.” While at the same time he is not down on them. It may be the best thing for them in a corrupted Matrix. A search of “Puerarchy” at the Red Pill Room gives more of his essays where he welcomes their contributions.

    http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/09/in-praise-of-puerarchy.html

    “What if a man’s purpose and destiny are incompatible with his relationship and children. Will you support the man that will leave his relationship and children for his purpose and destiny?”

    If you were to pose that question to a skilled counselor, say like Dr. Laura , her answer would be: “I’m not going to make that decision for you. Of course I have an opinion, but you have to make that decision for yourself. And she would say, yes, there are consequences.

    That’s not a cop out on your question, it’s just a pragmatic response.

    I’m judgemental, but I’m not in the position of the judge as the question is posed.

    We all make mistakes. But we have to adapt to them and perhaps change your programming which ever side of the fence that makes you fall on.

    Rollo said (in his essay Game and Circumstance):

    Changing Your Programming

    I mention in the book that I am not a motivational speaker, I’m not anyone’s savior and I would rather men be the self-sustaining solutions to becoming the men they want and need to be – not Rollo Tomassi’s success stories, but their own success stories.

    That said, let me add that I would not be writing what I do if I thought that biological determinism, circumstance and social conditioning were insurmountable factors in any Man’s life. Men can accomplish great things through acts of will, they can be masters of their circumstances and most importantly masters of themselves.

    With a healthy understanding, respect and awareness of what influences his own condition, a Man can overcome and thrive within the context of them – but he must first be aware of, and accepting of, the conditions under which he operates and maneuvers.

    You may not be able to control the actions of others, you may not be able to account for women’s hypergamy, but you can be prepared for them, you can protect yourself from the consequences of them and you can be ready to make educated decisions of your own based upon that knowledge.

    You can unplug.

    You can change your programming, and you can live a better life no matter your demographic, age, past regrets or present circumstances.

  74. @YaReally

    @having a bad day
    “do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?…”

    I’m aware.

    so how is losing ALL your assets (even those that you got before your pLTR started, and doesn’t include any of HER assets in the calculation…), better than losing half of your assets that you got since the marriage started (which also would include any assets she had earned as part of the calculation)?… that makes no sense to me logically… and if that’s some type of strawman argument point it out, bc i really don’t get the advantage to a pLTR WITH kids in play…

    how is having 18 years of ‘alimony’ (through child support awards), which automatically attachs, better than having a RISK of some alimony possibly awarded if the marriage fails?… again, i’m really not seeing the benefit…

    ARE they really any more likely to do it to you as a baby daddy VS as a husband who has false accusations of abuse/molestation/rape against him these days?

    yes… but that’s actually a great analogy… a ‘normal’ baby daddy is seen at about the same level as a husband accused of molesting the kids… it’s actually worse if the baby daddy is also accused of molesting the kids… but that would never happen, right?…lol

    the FI permeates the system…

    imagine a judge coming to court to deal with you… judges are appointed from UMC culture, so judge likely has a spouse and kids… he/she leaves the house in the UMC enclave (right down the street from SJF…lol) where there is prosperity (belmont) and all families are two-parent… who are married… to each other…lol…

    and comes to court…

    judge sees YOU standing there… bc your situ has gone bad…

    1) you are legal contract married – the court knows bc it’s in all the paperwork – so you are ‘just like the judge’… trying to ‘do the right thing’…

    2) you are a baby daddy – the court knows bc it’s in all the paperwork – so you are the guy that is ‘responsible’ for the mess of current society collapsing into anarchy… like in detroit… and the judge really doesn’t want THAT result for his/her town/city… so if the judge could just make an example of you, maybe that WOULDN’T happen… (think about Blaximus as the judge…lol)… and whatever the judge does to you is ok (in the judge’s mind) bc you didn’t ‘man up’ to ‘be there for your kids’…

    in which case do you think the judge is even going to try to be fair?… @AR is NOT wrong about those negative rights in play… there is NO case (being in court fighting for your kids) where being a baby daddy is going to be better for you than being a ‘husband’…

    as @Novaseeker points out about courts of equity/courts of law:

    court of law = use the ‘right’ law regardless of the ‘wrong’ result
    court of equity (family court) = get the ‘right’ result regardless of the ‘right’ law…and that ‘result’ is informed by the FI…

    look dude, i’m not happy about where this rabbit hole lead to… it makes it a LOT harder to coach guys on how to get what they want (in this case a kid and a 2 parent family)… how easy is it to just say “NEVER get married!.. EVER!”?… done!… but that doesn’t seem to be the case when kids are involved…

    you should know me well enough by now to know that i don’t just pull this shit out of my butt… lol (pun intended…lol)… i try to consider ALL the angles… AND do research… AND i’m willing to be ‘wrong’… but you have to be able to tell me WHY i’m wrong…

    we HAVE been having that discussion you wanted to have… it’s just been a lot messier than anybody expected… largely bc of all the ego investments of all parties… on all sides…

    neither one of us wants to have an echo-chamber hugbox, right?… and we both want an ACCURATE knowledge-base, right?… well, that gets messy hashing out the accurate details… it’s not easy, but neither is figuring out how to approach/bang that hb8+/10 <25yo in 2016…lol…

    let's try this, bc i think you are missing something in this whole pLTR idea… maybe it's like social conditioning of the manosphere…lol… but you seem to be missing a dynamic in play…

    do looks matter?…

    no, i'm not being flippant…lol… we covered this before… the 'looks' DON'T matter, what matters is the other stuff – confidence, etc, = subcomms, right?

    that pLTR is the same thing… the 'structure' of the pLTR (not being legal contract married) isn't what triggers all that stuff like pre-selection, etc… it's the underlying SUBCOMMS that the man has/exhibits… regardless of the legal structure (looks) of the situ…

    it blows my mind that guys that were on the 'looks matter' side are also arguing that the pLTR legal structure doesn't matter… lol… and the other way… bc it's the same dynamic in play…

    good luck!

  75. HABD & YaReally – I’ve just read through to the end of this.

    I think we’re really making some progress in identifying the disconnect on this debate – it seems there are actually some disagreements about the underlying facts (level of upside/downside for being baby daddy vs being married etc) that are going to be difficult to resolve, because you essentially end up in “my anecdotal experience” vs “your anecdotal evidence”.

    This is in addition to the more structural logic based points that HABD just made.

    I can’t manage today but I’ll try to boil things down to the key issues over the weekend or early next week.

  76. “I don’t include Tyler or Julien RSD as Peurarchs and I think they are fantastic role models for young men of any persuasion. They run a huge successful business. They moved past the Puerarchy stage. They are men in full.”

    “Are you saying that helping fellow men achieve their potential WITH women and pushing them towards enlightenment isn’t a suitable “masculine” mission?”

    Not at all.

    (And just to be forthright: I was speaking of YaReally. )”

    @SJF

    How is what YaReally does different from RSD? Because he does it for free, and doesn’t have a huge successful business?

  77. @Andy

    That’s just me with my OMG goggles on. Perhaps just being pejorative because the Puerarchs don’t accept the OMG’s as being on the same red pill team and me trying to get over my butt-hurt-ness over that. Wealth creation and assets for personal power and relationship game and parenting fit into my own personal definition of masculine self improvement (especially in a society in decline). YMMV.

    And that depends on one’s definition of what a Puerarch is.

    Ian Ironwood wrote in praise of tag teaming feminism:

    http://puerarchy.com/2013/07/16/ironwood-speaks-welcome-to-the-puerarchy-this-is-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you/

    If I could (and who knows, I might) I would write and issue a “Fully Informed Bridegrooms’ Guide” to spell out exactly what the pitfalls and perils of matrimony are in our society, demonstrating with graph and chart what most of us already suspect: marriage 2.0 is not in a man’s best interest. It is institutionally stacked against him. Barring extraordinary circumstances and a phenomenal woman (rare but not extinct), planning on settling down before you’re 30 should be considered a triumph of optimism over experience.

    We few – we determined few – who do roll those dice, no matter how the odds look, do so because we have made a commitment to our families that rivals the determination of a Bull Alpha to make CEO or a Bear Alpha to make Colonel. We have voluntarily left the happy, testosterone-laden environment of the Puerarchy for the rugged life of husband and father. We’re not to be pitied, we’re not to be envied, we’re just pursuing our masculine imperative in a very specific and directed way. We are the new Patriarchy, the Patriarchy 2.0, and we are in a very real way dependent upon and valuable to the Puearchy. Indeed, we can be considered an extension of it.

    Simply put, the reason why the Puerarchy in all of its riotous Girls Gone Wild glory is so valuable to the Patriarchy 2.0 is because it acts as a screening mechanism for the near-mythical Woman of Quality. The future Outstanding Husbands and Word’s Best Dads look remarkably similar to the future Chronic Alcoholics and Unrepentant Gamers when in their larval forms. Women who have a consistently difficult time detecting between the two are generally poor marriage prospects. By pumping and dumping every woman you can during your Puerarchy you help detect and reveal character issues and other traits of a future ex-wife long before you are inexorably entwined in her DNA.

    That sounds crude and nasty to a lot of women . . . I hope. That’s the point. The worse the behavior of the Puerarchy, the quicker and clearer the reveal. And by mastering good Puerarch behavior, a future Wolf Alpha family man – the current gold standard of the SMP – can successfully hide among his Puerach brethren until such time as he should reveal himself to a Woman of Quality. And when the nascent Prince Charming finally does decide to begin the long, slow vetting process with his future queen, you can bet that his Puerarch pals will have a role to play there, too.

    The Puerarchy beckons for us all, and presents an alluring alternative to the drudgery of matrimony and parenthood. It’s the secret treehouse of the Lost Boys, the primal chaos of Lord of the Flies, the camaraderie of a Call of Duty team, the visceral thrill of a nudie bar, the sublime masculine sophistication of the Most Interesting Man In the World’s country villa, the Temple of Doom, Valhalla, and Hooters all rolled into one, where the beer is cold and the nameless chicks are hot.

    It’s important to us married men precisely because it does present a pleasant alternative to our daily struggle . . . and it’s always there. Like cable sports or internet porn, the Puerarchy is eternal, 24:7.

    The Puerarchy lets us know we aren’t going to be “worse off” if we’re single – far from it. And far from the Patriarchy resenting and resisting the Puerarchy, the wiser among us realize that the Puerarchy makes being married a privilege, not a sentence. When your wife knows you you’re just one text away from an all-night Texas Hold’em-a-thon, then your willingness to watch Glee reruns or other emasculating shit on her behalf becomes a far bigger deal.

    Conversely, the Puerarchy should not shy away from the Alpha Dads of Patriarchy 2.0. We’re your brothers, and we can help. We’re who you hold out as beacons of stability to potential girlfriends, proof that not only are there decent dudes out there, but that you know, admire, and desire to emulate them. If you can fake that, you can get laid by the dozen. We’re also good at baling you out of jail, providing character witnesses at trial, and having a permanent address while you go backpacking through the Amazon.

    And lastly, we’re proof that male-female relations can work . . . and we’re repositories of how it works. Masculine perspective is enriched by marriage, and while it ain’t for everyone that perspective can inform the decisions of even the most confirmed bachelor. Continuing relationships between Puerarchs and Patriarchs are vital to the pursuit of masculinity for both; as the feminists know when men get together . . . we’re always up to something.

    So enjoy, my brothers, the wonderful world of masculine bounty that our post-industrial civilization has provided you. Drink in the beer, smell the nachos, listen to the sweet hum of your videogame console, and prepare yourselves to bang anything that gets within range.

    But stay the fuck away from my daughter. We don’t want any unpleasantness. I’ve already got the hole dug. That saves time.

    That’s one of those pieces of patriarchal wisdom y’all might want to hold on to.

  78. This is one reason for the false charges of DV that have pretty much become standard in divorce cases.”

    YaReally
    Agreed. That’s my point. How much better off is a “husband” who’s viewed as an abuser who may be molesting the kids, than the “baby daddy” really? They’re both so far past fucked that being a “husband” didn’t really come with any benefit.

    Except that being a no-good, Peter Pan Manboy, babydaddy is viewed worse by the sort of UMC law students who tend to become anti Family Court judges.

    DV laws are all about “intimate partner violence”, which includes just about any group of 2 or more people who are in the same place long enough. So an unmarried man can have the Duluth Wheel called in on him just as easily as a married man. Sweet Susie loses attraction, shit tests more, he fails them and gets angry, eventually she hauls off and slaps him or vice versa, or maybe just she wants to “teach him a lesson” by playing Let’s You And Him Fight with the cops as “Him” – when the police roll up to the house, they won’t be asking to see a marriage license. Not even.

    Ditto false accusations of child abuse, rape, etc. There’s nothing to stop a live-in GF from doing those exact, same things.

    The US is a “child support” system of marriage. The FI will push any man who has his name on a birth cert into the “married” box. It maybe married de jure with a license or it may be married de facto with law / regulation / anti Family court ruling. The solution is to not be named the father, or to leave the US. Maybe it was possible to live in the US but outside the “child support” system back in the 70’s, but it is not possible now absent an extraordinary amount of continual work that depends on certain legal structures.

    Just saying.

    tl;dr
    It stioften stinks for men in anti Family court. It tends to stink more for nonmarried fathers than for married fathers. Because of the kind of people who become anti Family court judges, if nothing else.

  79. EhIntellect
    Yesterday, wife is anxious about today’s party at our house with bunch of kids and their ‘burb moms. After dropping kids @ piano lessons I take her a few blocks down to the pub. She starts unloading about the stresses of her made-woman lifestyle. The party, the laundry, blah blah.

    Half way through her first pumpkin oktoberfest ale, I start giving her the soft lazer eyes.

    This is the point where the typical Beta reaction is to combine Comfort of the “there, there, honey” with Problem Solving of the “well, what if you did the laundry on a different day? What if we had the other kids moms bring potluck? What if…”. This reaction is perfectly reasonable and logical to a lot of men who grew up under the Feminist notion “Men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies”, because if Man A presents a set of problems to Man B, then Man B is going to offer to help solve the problem.

    As a bonus, treating a woman as if she were a man is a pretty good way to lose attraction.

    These obvious points can’t be made too often, because there are so many blue pill, Betaized men out there still laboring under the FI approved notion that “choreplay” is the way forward.

  80. But stay the fuck away from my daughter. We don’t want any unpleasantness. I’ve already got the hole dug. That saves time.

    That’s one of those pieces of patriarchal wisdom y’all might want to hold on to.

    Wonder what Ian is up to these days… used to enjoy the pics he used in his posts too.

  81. @ Novaseeker

    Thank you for the clarification. I was being thrown by the use of the word ” court ” in (anti)Family Court.

    You’ve been a huge help.

  82. @ HABD

    in which case do you think the judge is even going to try to be fair?… @AR is NOT wrong about those negative rights in play… there is NO case (being in court fighting for your kids) where being a baby daddy is going to be better for you than being a ‘husband’…

    AR hit the nail on the head.

    But this argument must be glossed over in order to continue the OMG’s ego invested, solipsistic, hating, out-of-touch theme.

    Because this fact flies in the face of the Master Argument or ” absolutely no benefit to legal marriage evaaaaaarrrrr in 2016 “. To concede to the family court fuckery would destroy the foundation of the original, and ever present argument in the first place.

    So, there will be zero concession.

    Facts be damned.

  83. Treating women like men … been there, done that. If it isn’t the worst thing men do with the women in their lives, it’s gotta be right up there in the top 5. Most of the time, maybe up to 95% of the time, all she wants is to be heard, that someone heard her. That’s it. When I learned this, it made sense yet it took me awhile to internalize it because I’m a natural troubleshooter and problem fixer by trade. Now it’s no effort to just listen while suppressing the urge to jump in with unsolicited suggestions. Solve this issue by doing nothing. Sometimes the girl will even thank you for listening and you’re like, I didn’t do anything. Yes you did, you successfully suppressed the urge to treat her like a man telling you his problems.

    Of course there will be that rare occasion when she needs your help and will actually ask for it. Then and only then should you step up, not one second before. But you might still need to ask further questions to clarify if she really needs your assistance.

  84. “That’s just me with my OMG goggles on. Perhaps just being pejorative because the Puerarchs don’t accept the OMG’s as being on the same red pill team and me trying to get over my butt-hurt-ness over that.”

    Honest self reflection. Internet fist bump.

  85. @Blaximus

    So, there will be zero concession.

    Facts be damned.

    nah… he’s almoooost through the denial phase… but it really is an unexpected shit sandwich… bc when i started down that rabbit hole, i was at the same starting point… and if ((I)) wasn’t such a sperg… i’d be choking on my own analysis too…lol…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRKz6QS5UYI

    good luck!

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