About three weeks ago I was made aware of an article on the New Republic blog called Bros Before Homes and a few of my followers on Twitter asked me for my take on it then. I did feel it merited more than 140 characters so I figured I’d build a post on it. Honestly, I had more than a couple irons in the fire for blog posts ahead of this, but in hindsight now I’m glad I waited a bit before digging too far in.
I am going to riff on it here, but before I do I’d like to point out that my posting Sugar Babies, before this post was a strategic decision on my part. You’ll understand why a bit later, but keep in mind the general premise of that post – women’s commodification of intimacy dynamic – and the priority of self-importance women place on themselves with regards to what men must pay for and why women believe they’re worth men’s having to pay for it.
I’m asking readers to keep this in mind because Bros Before Homes will contrast starkly next to Sugar Babies.
From the tone of the article you probably won’t need to look up Phoebe Maltz Bovy‘s portfolio to understand her clichéd feminist bias. It’s all of the self-importance and the prerequisite solipsism you’d expect from ‘journalists’ of her stripe, but try to read past the snark she thinks is interesting. Her sarcasm only highlights women’s duplicity with regards to men freeing themselves from the Feminine Imperative and women commodifying their intimate interests in ‘acceptable’ men.
The gist of Bovy’s fabricated angst is how offensively sexist it is for men to prioritize life experience, exploration, self-betterment, hobbies and the virtue signaling she sees inherent in men when they actually go their own way. Men cutting themselves free from the expectations of the Feminine Imperative and a feminine-primary social order always imply the threat of them coming to realize their own value.
It’s also that the very idea of experiences mattering more than things is a way of valorizing the stereotypically masculine. “While men are conditioned to dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas and long nights of hilarity—women are now encouraged to find deep fulfilment in staying home to origami our pants,” she wrote.
Whether women are being encouraged to rid our homes of useless belongings, or urged to shop for new ones, the result is the same: Society continues to associate women with the home and the material, men with the outside and experiences. While the enjoyment of domestic life, of stuff, isn’t inherently negative, it is dismissed precisely because of its associations with the feminine. An orientation towards stuff over experiences, moreover, gets cast either as recklessly materialist or, as Tony perceives it, an impediment to enjoying life. The only constant is that what women prefer, or are imagined to prefer, is thought inferior.
[…]We’re meant to admire the experience-lovers for their indifference to stuff, which implies they’ve got their priorities straight: to live life to the fullest. It’s no coincidence, though, that these experience-lovers are so often male, as it’s a stereotypically male aspiration not to be “tied down”—that is, not to have domestic responsibilities. But these men do have roofs over their heads. The bourgeois life they’re rejecting is simply one they’ve outsourced. After all, Tony hasn’t rejected the material life. He’s just got a woman—his mother—tidying up after him.
Bovy’s presumptions here smack of her reaching for some way to denigrate men’s pragmatically eschewing materialism or being tethered to what would otherwise be considered “grown up” responsibilities and looking for something more personally meaningful for themselves. As with all femosphere journalists you get a bonus 10% on your women’s studies essays if you can find a way to sneak the word’s “sexism” or “misogyny” in a piece.
Bros Before Homes is really nothing novel in the manosphere. MGTOWs have been advocating this reward-for-independence from women for as long as there’s been a movement. What is novel is that this return to a man being his own mental point of origin and prioritizing life experiences as his first priority is a result of an awareness that’s now filtering into the mainstream. It’s very easy to criticize men for being juvenile about foregoing what popular culture would have us believe is preparing ourselves for adulthood, but when this new idealism affects the men women hope will be well-positioned Betas when they’ve reached the end of their Party Years, then there’s cause for concern.
As a side note here, I should also say that it’s interesting to see how fluidly the progress of feminism comes full circle in Bovy’s thought process. She uses the same ambiguous tropes of a regressive society expecting women to resign themselves to domesticity and tidying up after men as if 60+ years of Fempowerment “leveling the playing field” never occurred. This is the same, very tired, cover story that second wave feminism used in the sixties.
The underlying irritation here is that men’s new prioritizing of experiences above materialism is a thorn in the side of women who’ve been given carte blanche to their Hypergamous whims. Bovy cries sexism because she presumes men are unable to engage in all this experience seeking without a support team of mothers and house-bound women, but what really makes her sore is that men doing the seeking reminds women of their natural predilection for materialism and the base of opportunism their concept of love is founded upon.
Bovy’s first mistake is that she’s statistically inaccurate.
The Blue Pill conditioning of the past 60 years has done everything but teach men to “dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas”. That particular conditioning is reserved for women playing along with the Eat, Pray, Love narrative. If anything it’s just the opposite. From education to family to church, men are conditioned for servile Beta-hood and lambasted for not ‘Manning Up’ and being supportive of women’s empowerment at the cost of their own. Conversely, women and womankind have been lifted to unrealistic idealism in pursuing their own interests at the cost of childbearing and monogamous domesticity. Apparently, Bovy’s never read Lean In or even watched a Disney princess movie in the last 50 years.
Off the Reservation
What worries women is that all the Blue Pill conditioning men have endured for the past several decades might be undone if men were to actually make themselves their mental point of origin. What worries the representatives of the Feminine Imperative is that Betas might see the pragmatism in following the example of men who put themselves first. Men who eschew the trappings of building their lives around the materialism women seek when their looks fade and their need for men’s resource security is a better prospect than having to compete for men with their sisters. When marriage is an easily recognizable sucker’s bet to the point that even Betas can see the sense in avoiding it, that’s when the Feminine Imperative must shift to a new tactic.
Open Hypergamy makes for aware Betas. Men aware of the game they are expected to play must either tamp that understanding down into denial or they simply refuse to play. That refusal can come in many examples, but the reasoning is the same. The deductive, pragmatic response is for men to go their own way and put themselves at the beginning of their thought processes and goals.
The success of women’s sexual strategy depends on ignorant Betas being prepared to meet (or wait for them) at the time at which their need for security is the greatest. This expectation of Betas in Waiting is part of a Hypergamous plan; it is the consolidation of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks prioritization (also known as the Sandberg Plan). Bros Before Homes is an offense to this plan.
This then becomes a paradox for the Feminine Imperative. A man’s life experiences are generally a wellspring of attraction if not arousal for a woman. Experience is the source of a genuine Amused Mastery and a man’s self-serving experience is usually a prime indicator of an Alpha mindset. My Red Pill brother Goldmund is a perfect example of how personal, self-asserted, self-initiated experiences can be parlayed into a very effective Game.
Be that as it is, the proposition of any and every Beta going MGTOW in various ways, hitting the open road and regaling women with the stories of their exploits presents a problem to Hypergamy; Hypergamy wants certainty and a well-traveled Beta is still a Beta. Furthermore, living for the experiential implies less investment in Beta men developing skills, status, affluence and the personal equity that make them good prospects for Beta providership when they reach the critical age at which women need their cooperation in fulfilling their Hypergamy. At least, that’s the implied concern for women. Men with a sense to educate themselves from experience are usually all the better for it – even when that experience is a nightmare.
I should add here that prioritizing experience above other consideration needn’t be limited to Bovy’s silly impressions of Jack Kerouac’s On the Road. What concerns the feminine is that men would devote the lion’s share of their personal efforts on anything unrelated to meeting women’s future or present security needs. It’s not just men wanting to scale Mount Vesuvius, it’s men having any self-import at the expense of women. When men’s ambitions are centered on satisfying themselves and not about developing equity that’s useful to women, that’s when those men (and those who would encourage it) are shamed for not being an adult. They are shamed for not manning up or growing up to meet the needs of women and thus not living up to “adult responsibilities”.
It’s not an accident that society conflates men’s servitude with qualities of adulthood – it’s the design.
As such, women begin to get nervous that their future provisioning and security are their own responsibility. How those needs are met are a discussion for various other threads I’ve written, but the social expectations of men qualifying for ‘manhood’ by assisting women to fulfill their own Hypergamous imperatives are at the root of the “sexist” accusations on Bovy’s part. To her, it’s sexist not to plan one’s life according to women’s ‘correct’ sexual strategy.
Bovy actually shares a lot with contemporary Christianity. Ensaturated by feminine primacy, the modern church has made efforts to convince men that their servitude to women is both an article of faith and a prerequisite for responsible adulthood. In a reversal of traditional faith, men aren’t men until they’ve established themselves as being capable of providing for both themselves, but for women as well. Any man shirking this is shamed for “prolonging is adolescence”. All life priority and preparation is presumed to revolve around supporting a future wife irrespective of her own decisions and the results that come from them. The contemporary church is a Beta production institution as it is, but it’s interesting to see how both Bovy and modern Christianity align on the position of men’s proper roles.
This is an interesting parallel when you consider the lengths to which women have gone to emancipate themselves from (ostensibly) being dependent upon men’s influence and provisioning. Western culture has evolved around the strong independent woman stereotype, yet it’s sexist for men to emancipate themselves from the worst of women’s sexual strategy. Bovy’s perspective relies heavily on the Old Books rules set in the misguided belief that women are still beholden to roles of domesticity and repression in an era of triumphantly embraced Open Hypergamy.
As I mentioned in the opening, it’s important that we contrast this concern for Betas leaving the plantation with the blatant soft prostitution of the Sugar Babies dynamic. In the light of women’s naked opportunism, and with that opportunism’s materialistic purpose, it’s easy to see how patently false Bovy’s premise is here.
In an era where we develop successful apps to aid women in setting their price on a basic date, it’s easy to recognize Bovy’s disingenuousness. MGTOW and its Red Pill aware derivatives are really just practical, logical responses of men protecting themselves from an Open Hypergamy women are all too ready to educate them about. The End of Men is also the eventual end of women’s expectations of long term provisioning. If Bros aren’t interested in homes the old social contract is put in jeopardy and Open Hypergamy only serves to expedite this shift. Women at the Epiphany Phase looking for the “equal partner” that Sheryl Sandberg assures her sisters will be waiting for them find that men have declined to play along.
The old joke is that if women would have sex in a cardboard box men would never buy a house. The joke’s played out now because women are happy to fuck an Alpha in much less, and now they’re proud enough to tell Betas all about it.
Yeah. Maybe we could call it something catchy, like a mental point of origin or something. You could set it on your self and shit.
Re exclusivity and Klem. It’s interesting that redpillers can’t fathom why women will get down and dirty with the scum of society (junkies, deadbeats, unemployed etc). They have to contort their mental paradigm to somehow qualify as deadbeats being alpha in the first instance. Otherwise it would invalidate their self improvement for pussy mantra. Ya nails it, exclusivity is scary to women in the carousel phase. The single defining difference between bangers and non bangers is their relationship to exclusivity. Betas exude from every pore their psychosexual ‘need’ for exclusivity, they literally advertise it as a badge of honour. Outcome… Read more »
YaReally, Sentient and PUA gang – Mini-FR to kick off Blitz Week (actually Blitz Two Weeks). Flying back to big city from small town (it’s amazing how my energy changes as I come back – I literally stand up straighter and make more EC and feel more confident). Anyway, HB7 mid-20s brunette stewardess on flight at start makes it a point to come and tell me my coat has been hung up and will be returned later (I handed it to someone else when I boarded). Ten second interaction but I locked EC and said “Thank you”. It’s hard to… Read more »
@redlight “When your wife/spouse/partner/baby mama/whatever sees the strong feelings you have towards your children, you know (or maybe you don’t know) the “I’ll do anything for them”, then she knows she’s got the real noose.” Fantasy feel-good fluff. PLENTY of Dads who have strong feelings for their children get divorce raped. This is the exact same shit as an FI/BP-er telling an AFC “When girls see the strong feelings you have toward them and how nice you are to them, you know the “I’ll do anything for you”, then she’ll realize she loves you” and “When you marry her, showing… Read more »
@Blaximus: That’s a good list. I appreciate your articulate candor.
@Redlight, Yareally: about this bit “When your wife/spouse/partner/baby mama/whatever sees the strong feelings you have towards your children, you know (or maybe you don’t know) the “I’ll do anything for them”, then she knows she’s got the real noose.” And that is bad for the stability of the relationship. So try not to have One-itis for those kids, or it could be just as bad as having One-itis for the baby mama in effect. Further, I suspect that not getting married to the baby mama, even if you are monogamously in an LTR with her, will help rather than hinder… Read more »
@IAS “Further, I suspect that not getting married to the baby mama, even if you are monogamously in an LTR with her, will help rather than hinder the stability of the relationship. I think it makes any passive dread you muster more effective (even if just slightly) and that will help maintain a healthy relationship.” This. The catch, which is why I’m putting Big-Al under the microscope, is that if he did he research and read those links I linked by myself (where I talk about how monogamy/marriage hamper your ability to run dread game etc in-depth) and Blackdragon and… Read more »
@YaReally: while I have your attention on this… I’m actually married, both our N=1 (assuming she hasn’t cheated on me), and further, in a semi long distance right now (no kids at least). I wonder about divorcing, to separate finances and give passive dread a bit of a boost. It is kind of the “demote to plate” move, but instead of from LTR to plate, it would be from wife to LTR. I very much doubt she’d go for that but I guess I shouldn’t care. Further she started giving strong hints that now she would want kids and I… Read more »
“Fantasy feel-good fluff. PLENTY of Dads who have strong feelings for their children get divorce raped …”
I took redlight’s comment about the “real noose” the opposite way. I think he’s saying that the guy’s desire to see his kids on the regular can be more useful to her that the technical legal power she has over him in a divorce.
@IAS “I’m actually married, both our N=1 (assuming she hasn’t cheated on me), and further, in a semi long distance right now (no kids at least).” “Further she started giving strong hints that now she would want kids and I don’t.” lol wtf you DON’T want kids with her but you got married AND are long-distance?? How does this shit happen lol The unfortunate news as I explain in my pLTR stuff, is that you can ALWAYS become MORE committed, but you can never become LESS committed. If you’re a player with a harem and commit to a monoLTR, that’s… Read more »
Well shit, I don’t really know what redlight was saying there. My personal experience is that a guy’s love for his kids is his biggest weakness in divorce. Basically he’ll go along with whatever his (ex)wife, the courts, his other family members, etc tell him he should do because it’s “for the kids”. Which is all bad for him.
You should be able to turn it around without the divorce. Not that you should… Up to you really. Do you tell stories about girls hitting on you or anything? Head out by yourself at night? That’s what works for me. She’s never really sure if I’m cheating on her… It works.
Honestly though… If I were you I’d probably just separate. If you don’t want kids now, and you end up having them you’ll hate your life. Like really HATE your life.
Second marriages: the female wants the prize up front:
@nature boy “Well shit, I don’t really know what redlight was saying there. My personal experience is that a guy’s love for his kids is his biggest weakness in divorce. Basically he’ll go along with whatever his (ex)wife, the courts, his other family members, etc tell him he should do because it’s “for the kids”. Which is all bad for him. That’s actually what I’m saying, that the guy’s love for his kids is his biggest weakness. The guy could be running dread but the woman thinks he would never leave me, he loves the kids too much. r/DeadBedrooms is… Read more »
To be fair to the girl, the guy “Tony” does sound like an affected twat. A guy who boasts on the internet about all this flashy shit he’s doing, while in the same breath admits to being an absolute mamma’s boy is a cunt in my opinion.
@YaReally: What reason can you give that a relationship without a marriage contract can’t still be life-lasting, loving, living together, staying together, showing affection for eachother, raising a good healthy child with a loving example in front of them, etc. You are describing vowing fidelity without fidelity vows. If you are going to promise the rest of your lives together, then do it. Don’t half-ass around it. “But a woman loves opportunistically! She can choose to brake those vows and leave you and not even remorse about it!”. Yes. Same with the relationship without marriage you described above. Not being… Read more »
@Nature Boy @redlight “I took redlight’s comment about the “real noose” the opposite way. I think he’s saying that the guy’s desire to see his kids on the regular can be more useful to her that the technical legal power she has over him in a divorce.” Whoops, if that’s the case then my bad and disregard my comment to him. I took it as her viewing herself as having the noose around her neck, like when she sees his passion for his kids he’s going to do everything he can in a court battle to fight for them and… Read more »
“A vow of fidelity WITH fidelity vows is stronger. And again, that is the .01%; Game is the 99.99%.”
lol. You must be new here. Watch this:
@IWantAProle “You are describing vowing fidelity without fidelity vows.” Yup. “If you are going to promise the rest of your lives together, then do it. Don’t half-ass around it.” Why? Serious question. To “be a man”? Because it’s a “romantic notion”? Doing it involves putting YOUR ENTIRE LIFE AND FUTURE AND WELL-BEING AT RISK, with her putting NOTHING at risk. It is a completely lopsided one-way contract AND she is MASSIVELY incentivized to BREAK that contract because she will be rewarded with cash, prizes, attention, victim sympathy, your kids, alimony, etc, etc, etc So again: Why “do it”? Give us… Read more »
“lol. You must be new here. Watch this:”
lol definitely watch that clip. But of course, that woman and all the married girls we’ve all fucked will be ruled off as Whores, not Madonna/unicorns like the women these guys will select as their wives. They’ll find the magic NAWALTs. Probably some UMC girl who doesn’t go to nightclubs and doesn’t make an olympic sport out of fucking, SHE’LL be the special NAWALT but we won’t call her that even though everything else we say points to us believing she’s that.
@Ya – “Listen. I don’t give a shit about what you want to focus on.” Well said and it needs to be said. @SJF – You really need to listen to this. You presume some role here, and seek to impose a form on this fora based purely on your preferences which are by no means universal. @All – As an older guy who’s been married and plays in the single world, and works with millennials all the time and runs game on 20s aged hotties, I can tell you that YaReally is right. One of the things older guys… Read more »
“But the reason guys will read about this stuff and then STILL go get married is because deep down they know “if I don’t give her marriage, she won’t stay with me and have kids with me” . . .” Ding, ding, ding, ding! We haaaaaave a winner. And that’s why most guys won’t even do a pre-nup, never mind a negotiated, unlicensed marriage under civil law. They know that cupcake is going is going to throw a hissy fit over that one. She doesn’t want a fair deal. She wants, “Yes dear. I do, dear” and to slip that… Read more »
The Paradox of Commitment
“Mom, where is your engagement ring?” Me: I’d like to buy a ring. Merchant: May I see your marriage license, sir? I can’t sell you a ring without a marriage license. File under Shit That Never Happened. Also, file your questions under Shit That Grownups Make Up About Children. There is no child who has ever lived who gives a fuck about wedding pictures. If you want them to look at them, you have to force them to. In fact, it is only at this moment that I have realized that my parents didn’t have wedding pictures. You are rationalizing.… Read more »
Im here, just getting caught up.
For those here that did ultimately get married, was finding someone who you could bring out the best of (like Blax’s list), the tipping point? From where you were spinning plates to choosing a woman to have your children?
@Yareally, Im not sidestepping the question of common law marriage. I just question the security and validity of any legal arrangement (if you want to have children) at this point since it may change in a year or two thanks to FI court systems.
@johnnycomelately It’s interesting that redpillers can’t fathom why women will get down and dirty with the scum of society (junkies, deadbeats, unemployed etc). So redpillers don’t get this but bluepillers do? Are do both redpillers and bluepillers don’t get it, and only some special pillers get it? Does Mr. Red Pill get it, you know the guy who wrote books on the subject? They have to contort their mental paradigm to somehow qualify as deadbeats being alpha in the first instance. So beta deadbeats are getting laid? That makes no sense. The single defining difference between bangers and non bangers… Read more »
And no I have not ruled out pre-nuptial agreements as an option. Ive been researching those as well. Trying to get everyone the full picture here, tough to dissect and diagnose situations virtually with limited information.
Thanks for the Blackdragon info.
The problem with a pre-nup is that until she bails on you it exists in a state of legal quantum superposition. You don’t know if it’s enforceable or not until she divorces you. Don’t even consider one.
” . . . was finding someone who you could bring out the best of (like Blax’s list), the tipping point?”
Yes. And that lasted until the wedding reception.
Women trying to lock men down are chameleons. They take on whatever colors are necessary to get the job done. Ironically, if you find a unicorn, it’s proof that she’s a nag with a strap on. There are no unicorns, it’s a camouflage job.
For those here that did ultimately get married, was finding someone who you could bring out the best of (like Blax’s list), the tipping point? From where you were spinning plates to choosing a woman to have your children?
I don’t have good news
My wife can out-unicorn almost any woman on a redpill or Blax scale. She was out-doing Maria von Trapp, all the shit in the Sound of Music.
It’s still AWALT. There is no Disney movie possible.
@Big-Al “And no I have not ruled out pre-nuptial agreements as an option. ” Good, like YaReally pointed out, you can have the rings, and ceremony and everything without the marriage license. Also, didn’t realize that you were only mid-20’s. You’re only just now starting to hit your prime. In ten years you’re only going to be MORE attractive to the <25 yr olds while your wife will have hit the wall. Do you know any 30 something women? I didn't realize how bad the wall is. I figured all those women pushing the strollers around were like late 30's… Read more »
@big-al And no I have not ruled out pre-nuptial agreements as an option. Ive been researching those as well. The reason for asking a pre-nup is not that they are actually useful, but it helps smokes out intentions. Women will be running Love game on you, but shit can get real when you show yourself as somewhat immune to it, she goes “wtf, he’s not a sucker”. As my wife said recently about us getting married, “I respected you, you respected me”. I saw wedding pixs on FB yesterday. Ever single pix the bride disrespects the groom, such as in… Read more »
“Top 10 list of things I must have in a wife…”
Blaximus – the wise old man I wish I were 20+ years ago…
I read everything you write and it all makes sense to me now post-RP
“The reason for asking a pre-nup is not that they are actually useful, but it helps smokes out intentions.”
Sorry to post this here guys but…Just in case you thought hypergamy was only in the west…think again
Also, I’m reading My Secret Garden… You might want to give that a gander before you get married… Ho. Ly. Fuck.
@Big Al – You purple-pilling blockhead, stop talking and start listening. You are a kid, barely a man. Stop posing as though you have it all figured out – you don’t. We can tell that by how you comment here. Your cover has been blown, but the good news is that massive growth awaits you if you would only listen. Why are you here? What, did you think we were going cheer you for getting married in your mid-20s? Really? And you’ve been lurking here for years and are a Red Piller? Wake the fuck up. In reality, you are… Read more »
“Whoops, if that’s the case then my bad…”
I find your misreads amusing, so no problem when they happen.
“For those here that did ultimately get married, was finding someone who you could bring out the best of (like Blax’s list), the tipping point? From where you were spinning plates to choosing a woman to have your children?” I love being married. I got three blowjobs yesterday. and a fucking delicious hot spicy dinner. just like I do every night. my wife wears a ring. I do not. despite some assclown that thinks the desire for exclusive pussy access is a beta tell (who would fuck a used sex doll?), I take things to a seemingly darker place than… Read more »
L. O. L. It had to be said.
Ah, I get it now. I have a suggestion, why don’t we just call this the “Male Unicorn Forum”? I mean, apparently some guys have this all dialed in. One who was a beta pussy for most of his marriage and and is only now not completely under his wifes thumb, SJF, and Blax who is on his second marriage after fucking up the first to a fare the well, but has all the answers. And now Fleez who beats his wife like a misbehaving dog and is likely a felon, and is clearly a sociopath. Oh yes, by all… Read more »
“It had to be said.”
it should also be said that doing what somebody tells you to do makes you a bitch, unless you’re a pro at law 24 and you can in fact play the perfect courtier who has planned all the way to the end
a man is a man the minute his balls drop. all this, “wait ten years” stuff is bullshit. now is always the time as tomorrow is promised to no man.
do what you want. never apologize. law 28: enter action with boldness
“a man is a man the minute his balls drop. all this, “wait ten years” stuff is bullshit. now is always the time as tomorrow is promised to no man.”
says the guy, that fucks other women, has no kids, and plans on leaving his wife once she hits the wall. lol.
Since everyone wants to battle
I think your all fags who read shit online because theres information you can find on it that people won’t tell you outside of the internet. and that if you ……..if you…… yeah more talk about balls dropping whoop
drop them balls
@YaReally and Andy… First Andy because it is shorter: I have been “turning it around” without divorce, in the sense that the relationship is better for my wants/needs than it was a few months ago, since I’ve been working to increase my value and learning a bit of game. Now Ya with some quoted text. “lol wtf you DON’T want kids with her but you got married AND are long-distance?? How does this shit happen lol” When I married her I was religious and we were together (and we stayed together for a few more years). Also we were both… Read more »
I went through a marriage where my wife didn’t want to have sex with me after about 4-5 years. It is brutal and super common. She isn’t bad. That is just what happens. (why do you think celebrity marriages are so short?) I wouldn’t bet on your situation being different.
@sfer: “It is brutal and super common.She isn’t bad. That is just what happens”
@ Scribbler I love you as a brother in red pill arms. And honestly glad to have you back commenting. But don’t mis-characterize me as having been a beta pussy. I was a greater Beta, lesser Alpha drunken captain that was ignorant (of red pill principles) and consciously incompetent (at game). And I never had others, and never listened to others tell me how to live my life. I decide what I want. The good thing is, today with the manosphere there are resources available so a man doesn’t have an 80% chance of fucking up at what he want’s… Read more »
“says the guy, that fucks other women, has no kids, and plans on leaving his wife once she hits the wall. lol.” @ Andy your wife would love to snort a little coke, get smacked around and take a fat cock up her ass awalt “And now Fleez who beats his wife like a misbehaving dog and is likely a felon, and is clearly a sociopath.” @ Scribblerg lol. felons get caught. and yeah, you and Andy wouldn’t want me for a neighbor. but neither would I. I sleep like a rock at night knowing that the only person in… Read more »
M. Simon…. about LSD and deep cycle marine batteries…. it is a take on a line from the TV show Archer …. but it’s good to see you still haven’t discovered a sense of humor or different drum to beat
“but Ya is also right about something else. if you trip her hypergamy, she won’t even think about fucking anyone else.”
Reading My Secret Garden… I’m not sure even Blaximus is safe from that…
What about the issue of a foreign mother for your planned family. Isn’t legal marriage what can keep her in the country? Do you try to get her a visa for being a nanny to her own kids?
Can private marriage contracts setup a trust fund that both partners contribute to that can be used in place of child support in event of the girl blowing up the relationship? In which case liabilities would be reduced to 50% of child support payments.
“You are about to make the biggest mistake of your life. You’ll look back 10-15 years from now, likely with alimony and huge child support bills, living in a small apartment while your wife lives in a nice house with another man in her second marriage – a man who plays Daddy to your kids when you aren’t around – and say, “Why didn’t I listen to these guys?”. Wait 10 years. Build your life up. Build yourself up as a man. Get more experience with women and relationships. ”
Leave it to me to always find somebody that says what I’m thinking better than I am able to. Over on MRP reddit, TheFamilyAlpha said in a comment in response to the thread “Working towards being free of form”: Someone tried to trap me in the you can’t predict the future corner yesterday and my response was similar to your post and insight: I don’t have to predict the future, when it comes, I know I will adapt to it – not in a rigid manner, but a fluid one. Adapt and overcome any obstacle, big or small it makes… Read more »
“What about the issue of a foreign mother for your planned family. Isn’t legal marriage what can keep her in the country?” Yes. That’s why some men who want children go abroad to find a foreign mother. Once she allows the kids to leave the country with the father it’s a lot harder and more expensive for her to nab them. This is the sort of tactic you can think of when you stop thinking about how to provide for your precious snowflake and start thinking about how you can provide for yourself. “Can private marriage contracts setup a trust… Read more »
“I just disagree with people who say ” If X would happen ,I would definitely do Y” when they haven’t lived it”
It’s an interesting phenomena that if you don’t have a plan, things will go to shit, but your plan won’t work, because things change, then you adapt, then . . . they change again.
A plan isn’t a thing, it’s a process.
Lol. It would be great to hang out and have a few drinks with you. I have to pass on the coke now, because I am watching out for the old ticker in my chest.
Man, I think we could swap stories for hours.
Peace to you.
good posts, men. love the back and forth. my $0.02: Blaximus had an excellent post about his top 10. I want to point out that he had respect at the #1 position. To me, that is the only place for it, respect has to be at the top of that list. Further, I cannot possibly overemphasis how important this is over everything else a man gets from his woman. Of course it’s on him to act in ways that earn him that respect. But once a man has and can maintain his woman’s respect for him, that respect makes it… Read more »
“Yes. That’s why some men who want children go abroad to find a foreign mother. Once she allows the kids to leave the country with the father it’s a lot harder and more expensive for her to nab them. This is the sort of tactic you can think of when you stop thinking about how to provide for your precious snowflake and start thinking about how you can provide for yourself.” Can you provide more details. Are you suggesting keep the mother in the foreign country until the kids are born and then bring the kids back to the US… Read more »
“Are you suggesting keep the mother in the foreign country until the kids are born and then bring the kids back to the US . . .”
Yes. Without marrying her. So she can’t use the marriage to get a visa.
” . . . that would be a lot of hassle for 21 years if you want her to stay in the US.”
The point is to keep her out of the US.
@ Andy ‘ Reading My Secret Garden… I’m not sure even Blaximus is safe from that…’ Ha ha haaa… I’m checking out some of this stuff since I’ve heard mention of this Secret Garden book a few times. Having grown up with 3 sisters and a 10:1 female to male ratio, I don’t expect to be surprised by anything regarding women and/or their sexual proclivities. I’m an ooolllddddd dog at this. To be surprised one would’ve had to have accepted that women were innocent, pure, unadulterated snowflakes. I’ve NEVER believed or thought that after age 12. But like I say,… Read more »
If you are going to read 1973 My Secret Garden then also read 1954 Story of O, written by a woman
Random Angeleno I’ve come to realize that men must learn to embrace conflict to be in an LTR or at least not be afraid of it; those who avoid conflict ultimately always come off as beta with all its well documented hazards. Precisely – fear is beta. Lot’s of fear on the board, especially on this topic. AWALT AWALT AWALT – when that means she will fuck you over, suck other cock, be a hypergamous bitch… But not so much AWALT when it means she will follow a strong male, likes confidence, likes dominance, respects what respect is earned… etc.… Read more »
“Having grown up with 3 sisters and a 10:1 female to male ratio, I don’t expect to be surprised by anything regarding women and/or their sexual proclivities.” @Blaximus 🙂 The thing that surprises me not really WHAT, but how nonchalantly they tell the fantasy. Like, as if they’re talking to another girl and they already know that she knows exactly what they’re talking about. Also, their imaginations are just insane. I could never dream up some of that shit. I just don’t know how they can go through life pretending to go along with the ridiculous caricature of women we’ve… Read more »
@Blaximus “I’m checking out some of this stuff since I’ve heard mention of this Secret Garden book a few times.” “I don’t expect to be surprised by anything regarding women and/or their sexual proclivities.” @Sentient “Such irony this debate on a board where the host is married for so long and apparently so well…?” I know right? Personally I’d like you Rollo and SJF to share your time travel machines with us so I can grab one of those hoverboards while I’m in the future. You know, the time travel machines you guys used to come to the future and… Read more »
“I can dodge folly without backing into fear.” –Nero Wolfe
@fleezer: Not All Lion Tamers Are Like That
C.f van Creveld’s Pussycats for some interesting insights on the dearth of lion tamers. Perhaps you, Rollo, and Blaximus are really big-cat whisperers. Perhaps you all got a lioness raise in captivity and was amenable to training. “You pays your money and you takes your choice.”
The guys who got clawed have a healthy respect for the limits of vetting.
@ Andy ” @Blaximus 🙂 The thing that surprises me not really WHAT, but how nonchalantly they tell the fantasy. Like, as if they’re talking to another girl and they already know that she knows exactly what they’re talking about. Also, their imaginations are just insane. I could never dream up some of that shit. I just don’t know how they can go through life pretending to go along with the ridiculous caricature of women we’ve created in this society when they all KNOW that they’re nothing like that at all… It’s bizarre. Also… I think it’s a dead give… Read more »
“Imo, the way to be *her* AF in a monogamous ltr is by doing what I’ve been BEGGING men to do for decades now, Understand who you are dealing with and get your sexual shit together. ” I don’t know man… From what I’m seeing the moment you commit you create a fantasy of a man that wouldn’t. Also, I’m not Blaximis the Great, but I’m no slouch… The other day after making the wife come a few times she broke out in hives started giggling and scratching herself all over and she says to me… “You must love me… Read more »
The’re called lion TAMERS not lion vetters btw…
Show me an example of a guy who got fucked over in divorce and in majority of cases you will find a guy very culpable in getting what he got. Either he looked past early warnings or he failed to do what he knew he should have… Because fear mostly… Or laziness…
‘ Either he looked past early warnings or he failed to do what he knew he should have…’
Amen brother. That was me. Mine wasn’t out of fear or laziness as much as it was out of pure stupidity.
Nobody’s perfect. Lmao….
Random Angeleno “No I won’t ever think about going there again unless I’m certain I have her respect for starters.” Oh, you can’t ever be certain. And your burden of performance is that you have to maintain that respect. Knowing that going in and Accepting it is helpful. Mother Nature is all about uncertainty. A Man’s burden is being comfortable with uncertainty. Illimitable Man’s MAXIM #3: “Women’s love is admiration built upon respect. Women are drawn to men of experience and power. Man’s love is respect built upon desire. Men are drawn to women of innocence and vulnerability. When a… Read more »
“I can’t think of what a woman could say that would surprise me at this point.”
There’s no benefit to a legal marriage contract for a man except that he gets to escape upsetting his wife with a bad feels conversation. You know, that fear thing.
@Rollo: That’s a great story.
@Sentient: Perhaps. Yet you cannot discount the effects of pregnancy, miscarriages, deaths-of-parents, long term hormone use (undisclosed), etc. How would you suggest a man looking to get married vet for those?
You can do “all the right things” either from a blue frame or a red frame and still get clawed.
redlight That’s actually what I’m saying, that the guy’s love for his kids is his biggest weakness. The guy could be running dread but the woman thinks he would never leave me, he loves the kids too much. r/DeadBedrooms is filled with guys saying “no sex but will not leave wife since we have kids” The word you may be looking for is “hostages”. Women can and will use their children as hostages to a man’s continued “good behavior”. And the kicker is: they may not be doing it consciously or deliberately, it’s just part of their ‘must control everything… Read more »
Yollo Comanche: “I have found my purpose in life. And it’s thanks to you and everyone else in this little proto-tribe.” It’s not a proto tribe. Rollo has created a real tribe within the manosphere. Tribes are meant to be altruistic to those within their circle and have malice for those outside the circle. Normal masculine human nature. The larger the tribe, the more infighting. Witness the current USA with in-group malice and out-group altruism. I’m not on TRM to get agency anymore, but I’m still rapidly learning stuff. I’m not seeking a completion or calling my shots like Babe… Read more »
@Blaximus: re: stupidity
Yareally’s copious in-field video offerings show how game is akin to jazz: you’re setting the tone and riff off her last note; you decide if your phrase will be melodic, harmonic, or atonal. Yet going too far out of scale or too abrupt a tempo change is a stupid move. Smooth is game.
Thanks YaReally – noted for future reference. Now I’m at the stage where I’m seeing the IOIs “in real time” as HABD would say and at least aware I should be spiking her emotions..some more practice and I’ll be riffing on 50 shades without hesitation. Subcomms continuing to improve – just in the last 24 hours I walked past a HB5 black chick in 20s having a loud conversation with her neighbour (I was looking at her as I walked past) in an apartment hallway and she actually stopped the conversation and turned and said “Hi” to me as I… Read more »
“There’s no benefit to a legal marriage contract for a man except that he gets to escape upsetting his wife with a bad feels conversation.” You forgot to add; In YaReally ride-the-tiger land. In SJF unicorn land, I can cite only a thousand examples of how the guy wouldn’t get the girl (that he actually wanted and it “worked out”.) I’m not advocating for marriage for my son, I’m neutral on it for him. He’s a smart kid and will get guidance from me. My daughter’s boyfriend won’t get her if he doesn’t commit to marriage in SJF unicorn land… Read more »
kfg It’s an interesting phenomena that if you don’t have a plan, things will go to shit, but your plan won’t work, because things change, then you adapt, then . . . they change again. Mike Tyson said something about plans once. A writer I know put this in one of his stories: “You will not rise to the occasion, You will default to your training”. Returning to the neuroplasticity of Biology of Desire, and the general them of Antifragile, the red pill / mental point of origin seems to be one of the best ways to “train” for the… Read more »
“I actually was never surprised how women tell the fantasy, ever since 1979 when college girls I interacted with donned makeup in their attempt to sell the fantasy. ”
Have you read the book!?!
Rollo from The Pet ” Play My Game It is a far healthier approach to accept the laws of power, the laws of Game, Hypergamy, etc. and fashion a life around an understanding of them than to convince oneself that they are an exception to them. There are those who seek power by changing the game – by lowering the basketball hoops in order to better shoot a basket – but in ‘leveling the playing field’ they only succeed in changing the nature of the competition to better suit their individual abilities, neither improving the game nor themselves. The temporary… Read more »
4:00 – 21:00. Open to close pull by Max without saying a single word. Handling obstacles. Baby stepping. “My life is awesome. My night is already epic. BUT I want to see where this can go” mindset. Must watch
There is no second place winner in a gunfight.
You have the rest of your life to solve this problem. How long that is depends on you.
@ Andy “Have you read the book!?!” (I obtained it illegally for free in an amoral fashion today, which had a stumbling block because KickAssTorrents and Pirate Bay have been taken down.) Isn’t the book just a big Feminine shit test? I might get to it, but I think I can judge a book by it’s cover and am familiar with it. I can’t remember a similar book to it that I read, but I know the genre “Story of O”. It’s no. 69 on my reading list. Tell me more of what knowledge it might give me rather than… Read more »
Room 12…. lmao
@Anonymous Reader What’s with the wisdom of Mike Tyson?: “You will not rise to the occasion, You will default to your training”. What if you were ignorant of red pill and got the wrong training? Sounds like a fall back position for the non-courageous. How bout: “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly;… Read more »
Where the hell is HABD??????
FR: Holy shit. Only text/phone convo but wow, did I just game that HB8 I’ve been working. Over an hour on the phone, ton of text, it’s way too much to give the blow by blow here. How do you guys remember it all? I can’t ever remember the blow by blow so clearly. I stayed in dhv/flirting/teasing until she started qualifying and showing real interest. Took weeks of intermittent contact. I’m providing some business input that is relevant to her but I personalized it to the point where started reaching out to me, like all day and night long… Read more »
@ Andy ‘ I don’t know man… From what I’m seeing the moment you commit you create a fantasy of a man that wouldn’t. Also, I’m not Blaximis the Great..’ Lol. You’re my brother so you are great. You trying to tell me you’re gonna sell yourself short? Nah bro, you are as great as you want to be. …. shit, I know you’re great and we won’t ever have sex. My wish is that all married men could say ” The other day after making the wife come a few times …”. That’s the stuff I’m talking about. Don’t… Read more »
Room 12…. lmao @Blaximus Room 12…. lmao Who knew that women want to be just “filled up” with something larger? “She doesn’t want to have her cunt enlarged, but to have her whole sexuality enlarged; to be filled, yes, but to be sexually fulfilled too – to know more, to feel more, to have more novelty and experience under her belt, thanks to the life-enhancing mythical prick and promise of the sexy black man.” Normal female operating procedure. Big black dicks=fullness. Metaphorically filling your woman up is bliss. Fleezer game for the win. The feminine, on the other hand, is… Read more »
“My wish is that all married men could say ” The other day after making the wife come a few times …”. That’s the stuff I’m talking about. Don’t underestimate the import of these things. And it’s not just something done for her benefit.”
@Culum Thanks YaReally – noted for future reference. Now I’m at the stage where I’m seeing the IOIs “in real time” as HABD would say and at least aware I should be spiking her emotions..some more practice and I’ll be riffing on 50 shades without hesitation. props on the progress… get in that practice!…lol… and now your goal is to start to make ‘real time’ predictions about the girl’s response to your efforts… Subcomms continuing to improve – just in the last 24 hours I walked past a HB5 black chick in 20s having a loud conversation with her neighbour… Read more »
@ Random Angeleno ” good posts, men. love the back and forth. my $0.02: Blaximus had an excellent post about his top 10. I want to point out that he had respect at the #1 position. To me, that is the only place for it, respect has to be at the top of that list. Further, I cannot possibly overemphasis how important this is over everything else a man gets from his woman. Of course it’s on him to act in ways that earn him that respect. But once a man has and can maintain his woman’s respect for him,… Read more »
SJF @Anonymous Reader What’s with the wisdom of Mike Tyson? Maybe you should try reading what I wrote. Or you could use a search engine. Someone wiser than I wrote: : “You will not rise to the occasion, You will default to your training”. SJF What if you were ignorant of red pill and got the wrong training? Yes, ok, and? What if? Can you construct a simple 2-step logic chain? Sounds like a fall back position for the non-courageous. Chuckle. If you only knew the context of that aphorism… T. Roosevelt’s quote? Irrelevent to the topic at hand. Notice… Read more »
🙂 thx man.
“Your cup has gotten full, SJF. Can’t be poured into.”
Yes. So why don’t you explain it to me? I admit not just getting it.
“T. Roosevelt’s quote? Irrelevent to the topic at hand.”
Actually, I note that he said that after making sure he was one of the best trained men in the world.
You can only fight the way you practice
Sentient Show me an example of a guy who got fucked over in divorce and in majority of cases you will find a guy very culpable in getting what he got. Either he looked past early warnings or he failed to do what he knew he should have… Because fear mostly… Or laziness… Or ignorance. All the frivorced I know got married under the old set of books, and simply didn’t know what the early warning signs were. Now, one of them got married on the rebound from an LTR who dumped him, and even at the time I told… Read more »