Are You Experienced?

ontheroad

About three weeks ago I was made aware of an article on the New Republic blog called Bros Before Homes and a few of my followers on Twitter asked me for my take on it then. I did feel it merited more than 140 characters so I figured I’d build a post on it. Honestly, I had more than a couple irons in the fire for blog posts ahead of this, but in hindsight now I’m glad I waited a bit before digging too far in.

I am going to riff on it here, but before I do I’d like to point out that my posting Sugar Babies, before this post was a strategic decision on my part. You’ll understand why a bit later, but keep in mind the general premise of that post – women’s commodification of intimacy dynamic – and the priority of self-importance women place on themselves with regards to what men must pay for and why women believe they’re worth men’s having to pay for it.

I’m asking readers to keep this in mind because Bros Before Homes will contrast starkly next to Sugar Babies.

From the tone of the article you probably won’t need to look up Phoebe Maltz Bovy‘s portfolio to understand her clichéd feminist bias. It’s all of the self-importance and the prerequisite solipsism you’d expect from ‘journalists’ of her stripe, but try to read past the snark she thinks is interesting. Her sarcasm only highlights women’s duplicity with regards to men freeing themselves from the Feminine Imperative and women commodifying their intimate interests in ‘acceptable’ men.

The gist of Bovy’s fabricated angst is how offensively sexist it is for men to prioritize life experience, exploration, self-betterment, hobbies and the virtue signaling she sees inherent in men when they actually go their own way. Men cutting themselves free from the expectations of the Feminine Imperative and a feminine-primary social order always imply the threat of them coming to realize their own value.

It’s also that the very idea of experiences mattering more than things is a way of valorizing the stereotypically masculine. “While men are conditioned to dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas and long nights of hilarity—women are now encouraged to find deep fulfilment in staying home to origami our pants,” she wrote.

Whether women are being encouraged to rid our homes of useless belongings, or urged to shop for new ones, the result is the same: Society continues to associate women with the home and the material, men with the outside and experiences. While the enjoyment of domestic life, of stuff, isn’t inherently negative, it is dismissed precisely because of its associations with the feminine. An orientation towards stuff over experiences, moreover, gets cast either as recklessly materialist or, as Tony perceives it, an impediment to enjoying life. The only constant is that what women prefer, or are imagined to prefer, is thought inferior.

[…]We’re meant to admire the experience-lovers for their indifference to stuff, which implies they’ve got their priorities straight: to live life to the fullest. It’s no coincidence, though, that these experience-lovers are so often male, as it’s a stereotypically male aspiration not to be “tied down”—that is, not to have domestic responsibilities. But these men do have roofs over their heads. The bourgeois life they’re rejecting is simply one they’ve outsourced. After all, Tony hasn’t rejected the material life. He’s just got a woman—his mother—tidying up after him.

Bovy’s presumptions here smack of her reaching for some way to denigrate men’s pragmatically eschewing materialism or being tethered to what would otherwise be considered “grown up” responsibilities and looking for something more personally meaningful for themselves. As with all femosphere journalists you get a bonus 10% on your women’s studies essays if you can find a way to sneak the word’s “sexism” or “misogyny” in a piece.

Bros Before Homes is really nothing novel in the manosphere. MGTOWs have been advocating this reward-for-independence from women for as long as there’s been a movement. What is novel is that this return to a man being his own mental point of origin and prioritizing life experiences as his first priority is a result of an awareness that’s now filtering into the mainstream. It’s very easy to criticize men for being juvenile about foregoing what popular culture would have us believe is preparing ourselves for adulthood, but when this new idealism affects the men women hope will be well-positioned Betas when they’ve reached the end of their Party Years, then there’s cause for concern.

As a side note here, I should also say that it’s interesting to see how fluidly the progress of feminism comes full circle in Bovy’s thought process. She uses the same ambiguous tropes of a regressive society expecting women to resign themselves to domesticity and tidying up after men as if 60+ years of Fempowerment “leveling the playing field” never occurred. This is the same, very tired, cover story that second wave feminism used in the sixties.

The underlying irritation here is that men’s new prioritizing of experiences above materialism is a thorn in the side of women who’ve been given carte blanche to their Hypergamous whims. Bovy cries sexism because she presumes men are unable to engage in all this experience seeking without a support team of mothers and house-bound women, but what really makes her sore is that men doing the seeking reminds women of their natural predilection for materialism and the base of opportunism their concept of love is founded upon.

Bovy’s first mistake is that she’s statistically inaccurate.

The Blue Pill conditioning of the past 60 years has done everything but teach men to “dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas”. That particular conditioning is reserved for women playing along with the Eat, Pray, Love narrative. If anything it’s just the opposite. From education to family to church, men are conditioned for servile Beta-hood and lambasted for not ‘Manning Up’ and being supportive of women’s empowerment at the cost of their own. Conversely, women and womankind have been lifted to unrealistic idealism in pursuing their own interests at the cost of childbearing and monogamous domesticity. Apparently, Bovy’s never read Lean In or even watched a Disney princess movie in the last 50 years.

Off the Reservation

What worries women is that all the Blue Pill conditioning men have endured for the past several decades might be undone if men were to actually make themselves their mental point of origin. What worries the representatives of the Feminine Imperative is that Betas might see the pragmatism in following the example of men who put themselves first. Men who eschew the trappings of building their lives around the materialism women seek when their looks fade and their need for men’s resource security is a better prospect than having to compete for men with their sisters. When marriage is an easily recognizable sucker’s bet to the point that even Betas can see the sense in avoiding it, that’s when the Feminine Imperative must shift to a new tactic.

Open Hypergamy makes for aware Betas. Men aware of the game they are expected to play must either tamp that understanding down into denial or they simply refuse to play. That refusal can come in many examples, but the reasoning is the same. The deductive, pragmatic response is for men to go their own way and put themselves at the beginning of their thought processes and goals.

The success of women’s sexual strategy depends on ignorant Betas being prepared to meet (or wait for them) at the time at which their need for security is the greatest. This expectation of Betas in Waiting is part of a Hypergamous plan; it is the consolidation of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks prioritization (also known as the Sandberg Plan). Bros Before Homes is an offense to this plan.

This then becomes a paradox for the Feminine Imperative. A man’s life experiences are generally a wellspring of attraction if not arousal for a woman. Experience is the source of a genuine Amused Mastery and a man’s self-serving experience is usually a prime indicator of an Alpha mindset. My Red Pill brother Goldmund is a perfect example of how personal, self-asserted, self-initiated experiences can be parlayed into a very effective Game.

Be that as it is, the proposition of any and every Beta going MGTOW in various ways, hitting the open road and regaling women with the stories of their exploits presents a problem to Hypergamy; Hypergamy wants certainty and a well-traveled Beta is still a Beta. Furthermore, living for the experiential implies less investment in Beta men developing skills, status, affluence and the personal equity that make them good prospects for Beta providership when they reach the critical age at which women need their cooperation in fulfilling their Hypergamy. At least, that’s the implied concern for women. Men with a sense to educate themselves from experience are usually all the better for it – even when that experience is a nightmare.

I should add here that prioritizing experience above other consideration needn’t be limited to Bovy’s silly impressions of Jack Kerouac’s On the Road.  What concerns the feminine is that men would devote the lion’s share of their personal efforts on anything unrelated to meeting women’s future or present security needs. It’s not just men wanting to scale Mount Vesuvius, it’s men having any self-import at the expense of women. When men’s ambitions are centered on satisfying themselves  and not about developing equity that’s useful to women, that’s when those men (and those who would encourage it) are shamed for not being an adult. They are shamed for not manning up or growing up to meet the needs of women and thus not living up to “adult responsibilities”.

Responsible Adults

It’s not an accident that society conflates men’s servitude with qualities of adulthood – it’s the design.

As such, women begin to get nervous that their future provisioning and security are their own responsibility. How those needs are met are a discussion for various other threads I’ve written, but the social expectations of men qualifying for ‘manhood’ by assisting women to fulfill their own Hypergamous imperatives are at the root of the “sexist” accusations on Bovy’s part. To her, it’s sexist not to plan one’s life according to women’s ‘correct’ sexual strategy.

Bovy actually shares a lot with contemporary Christianity. Ensaturated by feminine primacy, the modern church has made efforts to convince men that their servitude to women is both an article of faith and a prerequisite for responsible adulthood. In a reversal of traditional faith, men aren’t men until they’ve established themselves as being capable of providing for both themselves, but for women as well. Any man shirking this is shamed for “prolonging is adolescence”. All life priority and preparation is presumed to revolve around supporting a future wife irrespective of her own decisions and the results that come from them. The contemporary church is a Beta production institution as it is, but it’s interesting to see how both Bovy and modern Christianity align on the position of men’s proper roles.

This is an interesting parallel when you consider the lengths to which women have gone to emancipate themselves from (ostensibly) being dependent upon men’s influence and provisioning. Western culture has evolved around the strong independent woman stereotype, yet it’s sexist for men to emancipate themselves from the worst of women’s sexual strategy. Bovy’s perspective relies heavily on the Old Books rules set in the misguided belief that women are still beholden to roles of domesticity and repression in an era of triumphantly embraced Open Hypergamy.

Materialism

As I mentioned in the opening, it’s important that we contrast this concern for Betas leaving the plantation with the blatant soft prostitution of the Sugar Babies dynamic. In the light of women’s naked opportunism, and with that opportunism’s materialistic purpose, it’s easy to see how patently false Bovy’s premise is here.

In an era where we develop successful apps to aid women in setting their price on a basic date, it’s easy to recognize Bovy’s disingenuousness. MGTOW and its Red Pill aware derivatives are really just practical, logical responses of men protecting themselves from an Open Hypergamy women are all too ready to educate them about. The End of Men is also the eventual end of women’s expectations of long term provisioning. If Bros aren’t interested in homes the old social contract is put in jeopardy and Open Hypergamy only serves to expedite this shift. Women at the Epiphany Phase looking for the “equal partner” that Sheryl Sandberg assures her sisters will be waiting for them find that men have declined to play along.

The old joke is that if women would have sex in a cardboard box men would never buy a house. The joke’s played out now because women are happy to fuck an Alpha in much less, and now they’re proud enough to tell Betas all about it.

3.9 8 votes
Article Rating

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

Speak your mind

841 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ SJF Most women fantasize. Yup, even my dear old mom…lol…awalt you know. But most will never act on their fantasies, just as most men won’t get the opportunity to act on theirs. Browsing through the book got a bit boring for me, again because I don’t think of women in some puritanical fashion. A few chicks will open up to a limited extent ( I’m talking about ‘ regular, every day girls ) commensurate with the amount of trust they feel, but most of us will never get the full story on what’s rolling around in their heads. The… Read more »

YaReally
7 years ago

@Anonymous Reader “It’s like deciding to learn to fly an ultralight in the Rockies, or ride a motorcycle in LA rush hour traffic – yeah, ok, go for it…but there’s some things you reaaallllly oughta know, man.” Nah brah, that’s just FEAR. You’re just a cowardly pussy who’s scared to take the fork in the road if you don’t just hop on the motorcycle and gun it without any training. I’ve been riding a skateboard I bought 20 years ago and I haven’t crashed, probably ’cause I’m not a pussy little lazy bitch like these idiots that crash their motorcycles… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@YaReally My mistake, the things I say assume a man is well trained. After all I’m old and well trained by a life not taking the easy road or the easy dopamine hit. I say the shit I say after being well trained by experience. But I did start that training with a vengeance and desire at the age of 28. I did the work and leaned out to my edge for the next 27 years. You know that. You push your edge. Are you advocating for a guy to not push his edge? “Instructions are for pussies.” Just cause… Read more »

ChunkyMonkey
ChunkyMonkey
7 years ago

I find it hard to grasp the self entitled, arrogance, and audacity of that women’s article. The double think here is incredible, men are brought up to truly believe in the sort of nonsense that women like Phoebe Bovy advocate, and we’re hated for it, literally despised. A beta can never do right in their eyes. I’m going to share a bit of my story here (for what it’s worth), because it blows my mind that a woman can write an article that is such a blatant assault on men that are conditioned their entire lives to truly believe in… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@ Rollo ” The Blue Pill Beta’s desire to ‘merge’ with a woman is partly a desire to lose himself.” I had to read this sentence 10 times. A man can’t merge with a woman. A blended relationship is doomed. If a man decides that he would like to get married, it will be his responsibility to Sheppard that union. One can’t do that if he is ‘ lost ‘. Freedom from oneself?? That’s a disaster. It’s like the old saying ” No matter where you go, there you are..”. Lol, my wife and I can not be ‘ one… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

“The rationale is that they want kids and they want to raise them with a healthy woman who knows how to be a great mother because that’s the best way to do it. That’s dangerous because it’s true, but the real conflict comes from a want to be free from oneself, get a manageable monogamy out of the way. To lose himself.” Yeah, I had to read this 10 times also and I still don’t get it. Actually I just don’t get the last sentence. Why would a guy lose himself? That is foolish. I never was a beta pussy.… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

“but my only contention with the manosphere is how racist it is”

Welcome here.

Junior
Junior
7 years ago

@alphahomosapien That’s quite the anti-western civilization note. At the risk of engaging in a neverending series of salvos about how bad / good western civilization is, it’s worth noting that north-western European cultures & their offshoot societies such as Australia & the US are the most prosperous & have the highest per-capita wealth in the world. These societies are some of the least violent, the most stable & secure which is why they attract so much foreign investment, & if rates of immigration to the west are anything to go by, are the standard by which the overwhelming majority of… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

Holy shit…..

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

For a minute, I thought junior had time traveled back to 1962 Alabama

Cherry picked historical points always look so impressive when strung together like that.

Yawn… think however you like. It doesn’t matter in the end.

The. More things change…etc.

walawala
walawala
7 years ago

@Culum…. “”Only things I could have done better: found some way to sexualize or bring in sexual innuendo – perhaps teased her about using Kindle as a shield to prevent guys hitting on her? And also she wanted to talk more (invest) and once or twice I cut her off midsentence when I should have just let her keep talking. But I noticed and stopped myself doing that.”” She had a Kindle and you didn’t know how to sexualize it? How about my go to one: “What was your favorite part of 50 Shades of Grey? The Neg would be…”Your… Read more »

ChunkyMonkey
ChunkyMonkey
7 years ago

@alphahomosapien Whilst you’re pointing out some of the short comings of western Europe, what you’re forgetting is that slavery, war, and colonisation was the normal FOR ALL CULTURES, regardless of skin colour or religion, for almost all of human history. It was when Europe industrialised that the ideas of the enlightenment came to be realised, simply put, that humans can be far richer and happier, cooperating, and inventing things, rather than the period of mercantilism that proceeded it, and the medieval system of the divine rights of kings before that. You might want to read this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa Here are… Read more »

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

Him: What was your favorite part of 50 Shades of Grey?
Her: The part where they marry
Him: Isn’t that the end of every romantic novel?
Her: Yes, it’s the only ending we like

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@Sentient

A wine habit is waaaaaay more expensive than a coke habit…

I can get a gallon of Sangria for fifteen bucks…chicks love it!

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@YaReally

@Sentient
There’s no benefit to a legal marriage contract for a man except that he gets to escape upsetting his wife with a bad feels conversation. You know, that fear thing.

Dude, you crack me up…ya, wives never have bad feels convos with their hubbies, lol…and wives never have Dread…excellent point

Klem
Klem
7 years ago

@Blax Hey man, thanks to my answer to me earlier, although to be honest I still have trouble to understand lol. It seems to me that you want girls to have some sort of meaning in your life, when you said that you wanted more than “something fun”. That is the part I don’t understand. If the girls you interact with give you only good emotions/sensations, what else can there be to it? Like, does monogamy gives you STRONGER good emotions? I legitimately don’t understand, you can explain it to me like a retard, I won’t mind, because your situ… Read more »

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@Blaximus To be surprised one would’ve had to have accepted that women were innocent, pure, unadulterated snowflakes. I’ve NEVER believed or thought that after age 12. My Hamster is very energized…I’ve ACTED like girls are sex maniacs, but I’ve BELIEVED that they were sugar and spice…I blamed myself for “taking advantage” of girls, lol…I finally came around to the truth about girls via Dalrock, Rollo, and my own reflection…girls’ libido can spike thru the roof…Mrs. Gamer is currently expressing her libido via childish anger…sucks to be her, lol…ya, I really AM an asshole…and I’m cool with it…last night a broad… Read more »

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@YaReally I don’t care if you don’t like me. This isn’t about you and me. Water is wet. The sky is blue. This is about guys like Big-Al, Softek, etc who read Red Pill shit but never actually swallow the pill because guys like you are feeding their brains exactly what they want to hear so they can rationalize following their social conditioning and ending up blindsided all so you could feel important to some names on a computer screen. It’s also about guys who are already married and need to know how to manage their wives…just because you’re single… Read more »

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

Man, reading My Secret Garden is crushing any of the last vestiges of hope I had wrt the reality of monogamy. It’s just a cruel joke.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@YaReally sign a legal contract in a COMPLETELY different era than you old guys signed yours with a woman raised in a completely different era than your wives were raised lol, even wives raised in a different era will still grab you by the balls, call out the cops on you, divorce-rape you, call the apex alpha down on your ass, etc… I signed on to marriage long before VAWA and other changes to marriage laws and the changes really suck for men… likely worse changes are coming down the pike, so marriage now is a worse bet than when… Read more »

theasdgamer
7 years ago

A woman who disrespects her man won’t want to have sex with him,

Not this. A woman may be in a fit of childish rage and disrespect her man. If a woman has cold contempt for a man, she won’t want to have sex with him.

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@Klem Let me preface these remarks with a disclaimer that different types of relationships are all OK. And Rollo and Blax are the first to recommend getting with lots of women early in adulthood. I’m not advocating LTR’s. I’m just explaining some of the dynamic. Indeed the following will decidedly make you want to commit less, because it is decidedly less exciting for you. The passion of new women gives you a dopamine hit and once you keep repeating that hit in the same way with variety, it is no different than a hit of cocaine. That is normal brain… Read more »

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

, Blax, Rollo

“Actually I just don’t get the last sentence. Why would a guy lose himself?”

Imagine a weak guy, who is insecure, worried, uncertain. If he merges he feels he can lose his weak self, that is he wants to lose himself.

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

“Man, reading My Secret Garden is crushing any of the last vestiges of hope I had wrt the reality of monogamy. It’s just a cruel joke shit test.”

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@Redlight

Thanks for the explanation.

“Imagine a weak guy, who is insecure, worried, uncertain.”

The trouble I was having was being unable to imagine myself ever in that position.

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

Monogamy is the shit test. lol.

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@ASDgamer “A woman who disrespects her man won’t want to have sex with him” “Not this. A woman may be in a fit of childish rage and disrespect her man. If a woman has cold contempt for a man, she won’t want to have sex with him.” Good point. In all shitty LTR’s relationships, contempt will be present. Contempt is well known as The Tell for a doomed relationship. If a man sees contempt in her eyes (and it is not hard to see if you look for it, a third party can easily see it) then that is the… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

“Monogamy is the shit test.”

Yes, Andy.

Keep working on those Kubler-Ross stages……

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

“Keep working on those Kubler-Ross stages……”

Keep working on that cup.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@kobayashii1681:
“I’m also advocating for some secret society type situation”

Do you mean some kind of new secret society or the Secret Society?

What’s your concept for this sec. society?

If you’re one of the 1/52 percenters, you won’t need a new Secret Society …

kobayashii1681
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

@Tom: I mean a secret society of men, for men, young men and boys…that trains us on our imperative etc.. .

Kfg has outlined this brilliantly 😎

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Big Al If you are still reading some replies to the various questions posed, and even to a few strawmen… for your consideration. I will dispense with addressing the 11th grade snark and hyper extrapolations… I do not need any imaginary Internet Hero Points… these issues are far too important for all to waste time on that. As such my responses will be brief. Don’t take my word for any of it… weigh everything and form your own conclusions. Yareally Lion in a home is a lot different than a lion in the wild. It’s a jungle out there in… Read more »

mersonia
7 years ago

@SJF “One reason for settling down is to meet a man’s needs of clear communication (where the man and woman are out of the out-of-control romantic phase), appreciation, honest love and respect. These things usually are present in an LTR that works. It is decidedly less romantic, but it is comfortable and can be rewarding.” appreciation, honest love and respect…… if you read rollo and then …say honest love…….. ……….. …. . . . . . . . (flatline on the dots) “So, I haven’t listed any advantages. But I know them when I see them. That wasn’t really the… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
7 years ago

@Blaximus just scrolling down the page and this popped out at me… @ Rollo ” The Blue Pill Beta’s desire to ‘merge’ with a woman is partly a desire to lose himself.” I had to read this sentence 10 times. lol… that’s bc you are a couple of naturals… having some unfortunate insight into the dynamic (lol), i’m gonna weigh in… this appearance of ‘desire to lose himself’ just looks like that from the outside… what’s really going on is that he wants ‘someone’ to follow…bc he doesn’t have his own MPoO going on… just like all non-alphas… and bc… Read more »

Klem
Klem
7 years ago

@SJF Thanks for your answer. Also, please don’t believe I’m critiquing your choices or lifestyle, I am just trying to gather experiences on a topic that is very important to me, and that I wonder a lot about. “and develop into other networks of dopamine” That is the point that I’m interested in. What are they? What does your relationship bring you that you would not get without it? To come back to my previous answer to Blax, you are basically saying that monogamy brings you DIFFERENT kinds of good emotions vs when you are playing the field? I have… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

So to clarify my position on capital M marriage… less it be twisted… If you were my son, I would say why get married now? what do you hope to get from this? I would counsel to wait until he was ready to have children AND start paying for them within the next year. But at the end of the day it is his choice, I would help him choose wisely and not from a position of fear. And I would suggest to him that marriage does not necessarily mean full time monogamy for him… 😉 Tyranny of the or… Read more »

The Man
The Man
7 years ago

ChunkyMonkey:

You may find this insightful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xP261XI0Fc

Am I incorrect in reading into your perspective, that you are proclaiming the value in reaffirming (and perhaps even extending) the precepts on which the enlightenment was based? And that this is necessary now due to the subversion of the precepts that are now occurring (like the farce you outlined wrt EU governance)?

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

And … @alphahomosapien & @kobayashii1681:

So good to see guys from Africa on here. A breath of fresh air.

Also, @kobayashii1681, I really am interested in your concept for a secret society.

kobayashii1681
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

@Tom: Been here a while brother 😆 My concept is something that was practiced in African societies, and probably most patriarchal societies previously, separate boys/young men from girls, intermittently, at different stages of their maturation in order to train them to be RP, accept their burden of performance, disabuse them of blue pill thinking, and so on…. This was something men would do naturally… With my dads age mates, basically from the 70s onwards this stopped – boys started to spend/spent too much time around women, got too engrossed in Disney manipulation in the media & by having their focus… Read more »

kobayashii1681
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

@Tom: kfg has posted on this brilliantly….as keg does 😎

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Andy
Man, reading My Secret Garden is crushing any of the last vestiges of hope I had wrt the reality of monogamy. It’s just a cruel joke.

One thing to bear in mind about Nancy Friday’s books is there is some self-selection involved. Everything there is from women who agreed to sit and talk with her. Women who didn’t want to tell her things aren’t there, so the more asexual ones are not represented. They do exist, just as women who do not want children exist.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@Sentient

I really can’t grasp what you are getting at here…? Please elaborate. it appears you assume that the man initiated marriage to assuage his wife’s desire for commitment? Not clear.

I think he means a fear of loss of one particular nookie.

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@Klem

“But once you can get new girls easily, what is the point? ”

Monogamy is a disadvantage for a man’s sexual strategy. Those guys that enter it lack motive or opportunity.

I don’t regard it as a virtue.

(Shit, I should post more often from my cell phone. It would force me to be more concise.)

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

“One thing to bear in mind about Nancy Friday’s books is there is some self-selection involved.”

@AR

I don’t know… This is a puzzle piece that is fitting nicely together with everything else for me. I am a little mad, because it’s obvious that they are ALL in on it. But the rest of me just kind of feels bad for them and I just want to go out there and fuck thousands of them.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

OK… I missed signing my kids up for walking classes, yet they are not crawling around the floor. And nobody ever held their hands while they learned to stand, nobody ever walked them around a room holding one hand, nobody ever said “Come here! Come here!” in an encouraging way just one step away, nah, nobody taught them anything, they just stood up and ran down the street, right? Also did not go to any fucking classes… just felt right when my dick was deep, to pull it back and do it over and over… So what? Now gaining understanding… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

On choosing a wife… So I’m 27 years in relationship now with my wife… 25 married. we met at 21 and were married at 23. Contrary to current “opinion” the facts on the ground at the time circa 1990 said that HALF OF ALL MARRIAGES END IN DIVORCE and DO NOT GET MARRIED and girls should get college degrees and get cool jobs in the city and WAIT TO SETTLE DOWN… So her parents divorced when she was in elementary school… my parents had separated several times and divorced when the youngest was in college… Most of our friends parents… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@ Andy “Man, reading My Secret Garden is crushing any of the last vestiges of hope I had wrt the reality of monogamy. It’s just a cruel joke.” You can have whatever you want. If you really want monogamy, you can have it. I don’t know what’s in that book, but ultimately it doesn’t matter; if as a man monogamy is your goal, it’s achievable. The hardest part of monogamy, though, is probably being able to TRULY DECIDE that it’s what you want. Is it something you genuinely want, or is it a form of resignation because you feel like… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@Big-Al I do plan to get married next year with an amazing woman, on my terms and she is incredibly excited to become part of my life. I think living a passionate and exciting life can trupy happen while married if you find the girl who approaches unicorn status (awalt of course, YMMV). Being the fearless leader and captain of my ship sets me up to do all the “bros before homes” stuff I want to do but still allows me to set up a married life and family with progeny. ok well….. first rule is that this one you… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Andy
I am a little mad, because it’s obvious that they are ALL in on it.

Understood. It is like that Seinfeld episode where George stumbles onto a secret party society. Except the secret society exists, and women will cover for each other to amazing degrees. Naturals know this, and are always, “well, duh!” when it gets discussed. The rest of us? Surprised face.

But the rest of me just kind of feels bad for them and I just want to go out there and fuck thousands of them.

That, too, is something Naturals know all about…

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Anonymous Reader

“but your nature is there within you, your “gut” instinct are very good places to start.

Sure, and men who want to learn how to meet women should Just Be Themselves, right? No unlearning old behaviors such as approach anxiety needed, right? No learning new behaviors, nuh-uh, just go with that good old “gut” instinct.”

I think if you examine what your gut instinct actually is when you see a hot girl, you would come to a different conclusion.

But i take it that your screen name is meant to be ironic?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Sentient, cool story, bro.

Has a lot of relevance to beta Millennials, totally got that.

Tell us again about the first time you saw a cell phone, ‘kay?

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

YaReally

“getting married to me always screams FEAR.”

and this is the crux of the difference… glass half full or half empty… it can be fear based, it often IS fear based (hence my initial comment for Big Al to examine his motives) but it can also be an abundance based motivation…

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

cell phone? – 1986… Amazing how many people actually had them. Mostly guys I knew who were traders or in real estate development (at job sites)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0iXebyRWgU

Tell me AR you married? Ever been married?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Sentient
I think

There’s not much evidence for this claim.

if you examine what your gut instinct actually is when you see a hot girl, you would come to a different conclusion.

Your solipsism is showing, again.

HINT: Not every man is a Natural.

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

@rollo

“Betas want to lose the part of themselves that needs to seek out more sexual opportunities”

while watching an endless stream of porn about sexual opportunities

[Buffers]

scray
scray
7 years ago

@sentient

and this is the crux of the difference… glass half full or half empty… it can be fear based, it often IS fear based (hence my initial comment for Big Al to examine his motives) but it can also be an abundance based motivation…

k so we agree that the VAST MAJORITY of the time it is fear based, regardless of whatever mental pretzel logic men use.

now, you say promising monogamy or marriage or just ONE of those things can be ‘abundance-based.’

HOW SO?

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@Tom: “I really am interested in your concept for a secret society.” Anything you do with your male friends and do not speak about except with each other constitutes a secret society. To a certain extent simply having the shared, lived experience constitutes a secret society. People know you’re going hunting, for instance, and you might even talk about the hunt to strangers, but only you and your hunting party actually know the hunt. Secret societies of men go back to the dawn of men. It is the fundamental structure or male social interaction. It puzzles me that some people… Read more »

kobayashii1681
7 years ago
Reply to  kfg

@kfg: exactly!!! Well said brother….
@Tom: ☝☝☝

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

AR

What does your gut instinct say… at a cellular level here… not your mind…?

http://www.nicxlab.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Screen-Shot-2012-10-27-at-3.41.02-PM.png

SJB
SJB
7 years ago

@Sentient: Congratulations: Fortune smiles upon you. May she continue so and may hubris never invade your breast.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Rollo Scribblerg @ScribblerG, do you think the course of your first marriage and your relationship with your daughter would be different now if you’d been Red Pill aware then? It’s easy to say you never would’ve gotten married at all, but hypothetically, would your being Red Pill aware and applying it within that marriage have changed the outcome of your relationships? Very interesting questions… I would pose one more, answer or not if you wish of course… If you had to choose one which would it be – a close and loving relationship with your daughter and the promise of… Read more »

redlight
redlight
7 years ago

@rollo

From Buffers:

porn (as men use it) is a Buffer against rejection. … Porn gives a guy his reward for free; a reward that should be her single best agency is rendered valueless when a man can get off to an infinite variety of sexual experience at the click of a mouse. It’s unlimited access to unlimited sexual availability without the stress of learning methods to earn it as a reward.

He avoids rejection, but still wants “unlimited access to unlimited sexual availability”. He doesn’t want to lose that, he just wants it at low cost to acquire.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Scray @sentient and this is the crux of the difference… glass half full or half empty… it can be fear based, it often IS fear based (hence my initial comment for Big Al to examine his motives) but it can also be an abundance based motivation… k so we agree that the VAST MAJORITY of the time it is fear based, regardless of whatever mental pretzel logic men use. now, you say promising monogamy or marriage or just ONE of those things can be ‘abundance-based.’ HOW SO? A more careful read will reflect we do not agree that a ‘vast… Read more »

scray
scray
7 years ago

@sentient A more careful read will reflect we do not agree that a ‘vast majority” is equal to “often”… similarly “marriage” is not equal to “monogamy” in the context outside of marriage, i.e. a non married mongamous relationship. I didn’t equate marriage to monogamy. Marriage OR monogamy. EITHER/OR. promising either screams FEAR to me. Abundance based in the sense of acquiring a possession [wife] first and foremost… you can’t ‘acquire a possession’ without being married to it? you better go tell pimps that. the benefits flow from man to woman (monogamy or no) in marriage. and no one hears X… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

SJB @Sentient: Congratulations: Fortune smiles upon you. May she continue so and may hubris never invade your breast. Not sure if this is meant to be a snarky comment… so I will choose the way in which I wish to interpret it… On fortune… that is the thing… it is not fortune… it is action… it is not “i am better than you” it is “you can be better than XXX”… Why are people reflexively downgrading their capability? Isn’t this the whole purpose of TRM? To inform you, to build upon your natural inclinations… to embrace and advance masculinity? Why… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

” . . . “marriage” is not equal to . . .”

. . . a state licensed relationship. That is a Victorian England invention.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

“and no one hears X is married to Y in this day and age and thinks oh therefore X ‘owns’ Y. so you don’t have that social viewpoint on your side either…”

Really? Can you marry a woman who is still married to another? What will the judge say? The state?

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“hey I can turn dross into gold”

No problemo. I costs about a billion an ounce though.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

comment image

This is the contract of brotherhood between society members.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

kfg

heh heh…. the burden is indeed high… but still you figure it out yeh? then decide if said juice is worth the squeeze…

scray
scray
7 years ago

@sentient

Really? Can you marry a woman who is still married to another? What will the judge say? The state?

yeah on paper.

but everything that is supposed to come with marriage….yes, you can do ALL OF THAT with a woman who is ‘still married to another.’

so since you can have ALL OF MARRIAGE’S ALLEGED BENEFITS without getting married, once again….it really doesn’t make any sense to me to even get married.

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
7 years ago

So looking forward, when miss average hb4-6 has hit the wall and she has not Secured commitment from a top 20% man. (women suffer from the delusion that the men they can fuck are the same as the men they can marry ). And continuing to ride the alpha CC is not a realistic option due to younger hotter competition (she still wants too). What are these women going to do when more than half of the remaining 80% of non alpha men have lost interest in marriage after being exposed to the reality of open hypergamy that was once… Read more »

The Man
The Man
7 years ago

Rollo – wrt your comment above, everybody gotta compromise (part of life). Women who don’t think they have to compromise are eventually in for a rude awakening – no? Of course the consequence I am pointing to here is part and parcel of redpill concepts (The Wall etc.) – yes?. OK – so why do young hawt women think they don’t gotta compromise? It’s because the feedbacks for the social environment tell them that. Are Men also culpable in this dynamic? – of course, as per other redpill concepts (like “bluepill betatude chodeness” for instance, among many other redpill concepts… Read more »

theasdgamer
7 years ago

nobody ever taught them what a danger sign looks like.

Cuz, ya know, all the old guys who say that shit are idiots, lol. /sarc off

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“– not seeing anything. What gives?”

You’ve never used them.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Scray

“it really doesn’t make any sense to me to even get married.”

I get that… I’m not advocating for marriage per se, I’m advocating for the Platinum Rule and finding the answers to your own questions via experience seeking and avoiding fear based decision making on either side of the coin.

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

“If you really want monogamy, you can have it. I don’t know what’s in that book, but ultimately it doesn’t matter; if as a man monogamy is your goal, it’s achievable.”

@softek

I don’t believe it is achievable… The illusion is achievable, but I’m not going to live a lie.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

Young people are very susceptible to authority indoctrination, so that even when they hear contrary messages, they ignore those messages in order to preserve their adherence to the herd message. This especially applies to Blue Pill FI indoctrination.

SJB
SJB
7 years ago

@Sentient: Fortuna: as you said up thread: a man has a great deal of control. “Great deal” is not “complete”. To what do we attribute the failure of a man who has exercised his control to the extent of his capability? I say Fortune. To what do we attribute the success of a man who has exercised his control to the extent of his capability? I say Fortune.

One can, and ought to, remediate ignorance, laziness, passionlessness, or limits; yet Fortune is the ultimate bitch: she smiles on who she wills. And many use the bitch as a buffer.

Playdontpay
Playdontpay
7 years ago

All roads lead to Duluth.

Yet in lesbian relationships statistics show that domestic violence between partners is more prevalent than within heterosexual ones.

Go figure!

The Man
The Man
7 years ago

Andy you said: “Man, reading My Secret Garden is crushing any of the last vestiges of hope I had wrt the reality of monogamy. It’s just a cruel joke.” and: “I don’t know… This is a puzzle piece that is fitting nicely together with everything else for me. I am a little mad, because it’s obvious that they are ALL in on it. But the rest of me just kind of feels bad for them and I just want to go out there and fuck thousands of them.” I’m not actually getting what you are pissed at. Women have a… Read more »

The Man
The Man
7 years ago

kfg – “You’ve never used them.” Perhaps it would be better for all if you let Rollo speak for himself.

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@Klem “and develop into other networks of dopamine” That is the point that I’m interested in. What are they? What does your relationship bring you that you would not get without it? To come back to my previous answer to Blax, you are basically saying that monogamy brings you DIFFERENT kinds of good emotions vs when you are playing the field? Looking back on a family life for me is retrospective. You cannot look forward prospectively and expect anything. And keep in mind that when I grew up I don’t recall knowing anyone remaining single and honestly didn’t remember anyone… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

In regards to that last comment by me, I’m well aware that societies are changing at breakneck speed. That is a given for humans on this planet. It doesn’t change how humans operate, what motivates them, how a man gets agency, nor how adaptation is needed in a changing landscape. @Rollo Thanks for clarifying the blue pill aspects of Warren Farrell. I didn’t read the book yet, but took the quotes from a quotes web site. I felt awkward using them because they did sound Blue Pill. I was trying to express, like you do well, that men have to… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

Sentient: “Why are people reflexively downgrading their capability? Isn’t this the whole purpose of TRM? To inform you, to build upon your natural inclinations… to embrace and advance masculinity? Why so many attempts to purposely deny another’s reality – one that even you may posses through your own actions? To me… those are exactly the examples i would be digging deeply into instead of casually dismissing… Guy says “hey I can turn dross into gold” I say… go on… tell me more… why is this… how is this?”</blockquote Lol, I didn't see this before I posted the last paragraph in… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

@The Man: “Perhaps it would be better for all if you let Rollo speak for himself.”

Perhaps I have done nothing that in any way impedes him, and perhaps he has already done so, repeatedly.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

:

It must be remembered that Warren Farrell used to be a board member in the National Organization for Women.

He didn’t leave NOW because he ceased to hold feminist values, he left NOW because he wouldn’t adopt third wave feminist values.

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@ Anonymous Reader @Sentient “HINT: Not every man is a Natural.” The following is a passage from the Introduction in Robert Greene’s Mastery: “If all of us are born with an essentially similar brain, with more or less the same configuration and potential for mastery, why is it then that in history only a limited number of people seem to truly excel and realize this potential power? Certainly, in a practical sense, this is the most important question for us to answer. ….. The basic elements of this story (a story about how Darwin succeeded in his career, rather than… Read more »

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

@The Man

First of all… Have you read the book? Why am I mad? I guess it’s just that reality is so far from the mask they wear every day. I know it’s not their fault, and it’s because we judge them, blah, blah, blah… still fucked up.

But I mean, I also love it. It’s a must read. You can’t be truly red pill without it. It’s like stumbling onto a huge pile of secret cheat codes. lol. I’m going to have a leg up on the 99.999% of guys that will never know this shit. 😀

scray
scray
7 years ago

@sentient I get that… I’m not advocating for marriage per se, I’m advocating for the Platinum Rule and finding the answers to your own questions via experience seeking and avoiding fear based decision making on either side of the coin. yeah, the thing is…. i find it super hard to believe any man, if he’s HONEST with himself, would come out the other end in favor of any of that stuff using a Platinum Rule analysis. anything is possible, so that’s why I ask dudes like Blax and SJF etc. to explain what’s going on in their minds. the best… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

“I don’t know… This is a puzzle piece that is fitting nicely together with everything else for me. I am a little mad, because it’s obvious that they are ALL in on it. But the rest of me just kind of feels bad for them and I just want to go out there and fuck thousands of them.” In PUA we talk about the ‘secret society’ concept. It’s hard to grasp the depths of it until you’ve observed it in person – or at least in an indirect way that hits you viscerally, like ‘Secret Garden’ can do. Before then,… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Scray

I think I mentioned before to you on a similar point – walking away is often easy but running towards something usually is hard. Anything can be that something. What do you want? Do that.

The Man
The Man
7 years ago

kfg – “and perhaps he has already done so, repeatedly.” No he hasn’t.

Sentient
Sentient
7 years ago

Culum Sorry to be long in getting to you. You have good advice though… the question is WHY not get her number? Why not get logistics? Why not at a minimum develop an intro in a social circle of women who travel and have free time that you can interact with over and over when you hit this city? The rest… basic stuff… some compliance testing… [get a pillow, get a drink, have her taste it, have her put pillow behind your head, thank her with a touch, etc. Flight wings? I have a stiff neck, can you squeeze this… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Andy on monogamy I don’t believe it is achievable… The illusion is achievable, but I’m not going to live a lie. The illusion can go pretty deep. We all know plenty of blue pill men who are 100% convinced of the monogamy of their wives, right? And if they are either older men or devoutly religious men, whose wives still more or less play by the older rules, then those men can have a fair amount of confidence. Because the can’t see what they don’t understand, when a wife has an emotional affair with another man but there’s never any… Read more »

The Man
The Man
7 years ago

Andy – “But I mean, I also love it.” yeah that’s the way I see it myself. Women are fertile in alot of ways (they have very fertile sexualized minds too). It is weird (but cool) how it is partly hidden. A common theme among many many women is a fantasy that has the elements of unremitting uncontrollable male lust for their sexuality ……. but a woman wants to acquiesce to this masculine power at the same time as controlling it. Finding out what a woman’s fantasies are (like this seems to only come out when she is already mucho… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Andy I guess it’s just that reality is so far from the mask they wear every day. I know it’s not their fault, and it’s because we judge them, blah, blah, blah… still fucked up. Yeah, that’s part of the anger phase, “D’oh! This sugar and spice mask, it’s totallly false!”, I get that completely. But. Press onward in learning, and accept them as they are, you become more self-entertaining. Not An FR: Sitting in coffee joint the other day trying to get something useful done via my portable office. I’m in a quiet corner. A blonde 20-something arrives, and… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

SJB
“If all of us are born with an essentially similar brain,

False premise, no meaningful conclusion.

Just for a start: Men and women do not, not, not have an “essentially similar brain”. Just for a start…

Tabula rasa is a lie.

841
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
%d bloggers like this: