About three weeks ago I was made aware of an article on the New Republic blog called Bros Before Homes and a few of my followers on Twitter asked me for my take on it then. I did feel it merited more than 140 characters so I figured I’d build a post on it. Honestly, I had more than a couple irons in the fire for blog posts ahead of this, but in hindsight now I’m glad I waited a bit before digging too far in.
I am going to riff on it here, but before I do I’d like to point out that my posting Sugar Babies, before this post was a strategic decision on my part. You’ll understand why a bit later, but keep in mind the general premise of that post – women’s commodification of intimacy dynamic – and the priority of self-importance women place on themselves with regards to what men must pay for and why women believe they’re worth men’s having to pay for it.
I’m asking readers to keep this in mind because Bros Before Homes will contrast starkly next to Sugar Babies.
From the tone of the article you probably won’t need to look up Phoebe Maltz Bovy‘s portfolio to understand her clichéd feminist bias. It’s all of the self-importance and the prerequisite solipsism you’d expect from ‘journalists’ of her stripe, but try to read past the snark she thinks is interesting. Her sarcasm only highlights women’s duplicity with regards to men freeing themselves from the Feminine Imperative and women commodifying their intimate interests in ‘acceptable’ men.
The gist of Bovy’s fabricated angst is how offensively sexist it is for men to prioritize life experience, exploration, self-betterment, hobbies and the virtue signaling she sees inherent in men when they actually go their own way. Men cutting themselves free from the expectations of the Feminine Imperative and a feminine-primary social order always imply the threat of them coming to realize their own value.
It’s also that the very idea of experiences mattering more than things is a way of valorizing the stereotypically masculine. “While men are conditioned to dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas and long nights of hilarity—women are now encouraged to find deep fulfilment in staying home to origami our pants,” she wrote.
Whether women are being encouraged to rid our homes of useless belongings, or urged to shop for new ones, the result is the same: Society continues to associate women with the home and the material, men with the outside and experiences. While the enjoyment of domestic life, of stuff, isn’t inherently negative, it is dismissed precisely because of its associations with the feminine. An orientation towards stuff over experiences, moreover, gets cast either as recklessly materialist or, as Tony perceives it, an impediment to enjoying life. The only constant is that what women prefer, or are imagined to prefer, is thought inferior.
[…]We’re meant to admire the experience-lovers for their indifference to stuff, which implies they’ve got their priorities straight: to live life to the fullest. It’s no coincidence, though, that these experience-lovers are so often male, as it’s a stereotypically male aspiration not to be “tied down”—that is, not to have domestic responsibilities. But these men do have roofs over their heads. The bourgeois life they’re rejecting is simply one they’ve outsourced. After all, Tony hasn’t rejected the material life. He’s just got a woman—his mother—tidying up after him.
Bovy’s presumptions here smack of her reaching for some way to denigrate men’s pragmatically eschewing materialism or being tethered to what would otherwise be considered “grown up” responsibilities and looking for something more personally meaningful for themselves. As with all femosphere journalists you get a bonus 10% on your women’s studies essays if you can find a way to sneak the word’s “sexism” or “misogyny” in a piece.
Bros Before Homes is really nothing novel in the manosphere. MGTOWs have been advocating this reward-for-independence from women for as long as there’s been a movement. What is novel is that this return to a man being his own mental point of origin and prioritizing life experiences as his first priority is a result of an awareness that’s now filtering into the mainstream. It’s very easy to criticize men for being juvenile about foregoing what popular culture would have us believe is preparing ourselves for adulthood, but when this new idealism affects the men women hope will be well-positioned Betas when they’ve reached the end of their Party Years, then there’s cause for concern.
As a side note here, I should also say that it’s interesting to see how fluidly the progress of feminism comes full circle in Bovy’s thought process. She uses the same ambiguous tropes of a regressive society expecting women to resign themselves to domesticity and tidying up after men as if 60+ years of Fempowerment “leveling the playing field” never occurred. This is the same, very tired, cover story that second wave feminism used in the sixties.
The underlying irritation here is that men’s new prioritizing of experiences above materialism is a thorn in the side of women who’ve been given carte blanche to their Hypergamous whims. Bovy cries sexism because she presumes men are unable to engage in all this experience seeking without a support team of mothers and house-bound women, but what really makes her sore is that men doing the seeking reminds women of their natural predilection for materialism and the base of opportunism their concept of love is founded upon.
Bovy’s first mistake is that she’s statistically inaccurate.
The Blue Pill conditioning of the past 60 years has done everything but teach men to “dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas”. That particular conditioning is reserved for women playing along with the Eat, Pray, Love narrative. If anything it’s just the opposite. From education to family to church, men are conditioned for servile Beta-hood and lambasted for not ‘Manning Up’ and being supportive of women’s empowerment at the cost of their own. Conversely, women and womankind have been lifted to unrealistic idealism in pursuing their own interests at the cost of childbearing and monogamous domesticity. Apparently, Bovy’s never read Lean In or even watched a Disney princess movie in the last 50 years.
Off the Reservation
What worries women is that all the Blue Pill conditioning men have endured for the past several decades might be undone if men were to actually make themselves their mental point of origin. What worries the representatives of the Feminine Imperative is that Betas might see the pragmatism in following the example of men who put themselves first. Men who eschew the trappings of building their lives around the materialism women seek when their looks fade and their need for men’s resource security is a better prospect than having to compete for men with their sisters. When marriage is an easily recognizable sucker’s bet to the point that even Betas can see the sense in avoiding it, that’s when the Feminine Imperative must shift to a new tactic.
Open Hypergamy makes for aware Betas. Men aware of the game they are expected to play must either tamp that understanding down into denial or they simply refuse to play. That refusal can come in many examples, but the reasoning is the same. The deductive, pragmatic response is for men to go their own way and put themselves at the beginning of their thought processes and goals.
The success of women’s sexual strategy depends on ignorant Betas being prepared to meet (or wait for them) at the time at which their need for security is the greatest. This expectation of Betas in Waiting is part of a Hypergamous plan; it is the consolidation of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks prioritization (also known as the Sandberg Plan). Bros Before Homes is an offense to this plan.
This then becomes a paradox for the Feminine Imperative. A man’s life experiences are generally a wellspring of attraction if not arousal for a woman. Experience is the source of a genuine Amused Mastery and a man’s self-serving experience is usually a prime indicator of an Alpha mindset. My Red Pill brother Goldmund is a perfect example of how personal, self-asserted, self-initiated experiences can be parlayed into a very effective Game.
Be that as it is, the proposition of any and every Beta going MGTOW in various ways, hitting the open road and regaling women with the stories of their exploits presents a problem to Hypergamy; Hypergamy wants certainty and a well-traveled Beta is still a Beta. Furthermore, living for the experiential implies less investment in Beta men developing skills, status, affluence and the personal equity that make them good prospects for Beta providership when they reach the critical age at which women need their cooperation in fulfilling their Hypergamy. At least, that’s the implied concern for women. Men with a sense to educate themselves from experience are usually all the better for it – even when that experience is a nightmare.
I should add here that prioritizing experience above other consideration needn’t be limited to Bovy’s silly impressions of Jack Kerouac’s On the Road. What concerns the feminine is that men would devote the lion’s share of their personal efforts on anything unrelated to meeting women’s future or present security needs. It’s not just men wanting to scale Mount Vesuvius, it’s men having any self-import at the expense of women. When men’s ambitions are centered on satisfying themselves and not about developing equity that’s useful to women, that’s when those men (and those who would encourage it) are shamed for not being an adult. They are shamed for not manning up or growing up to meet the needs of women and thus not living up to “adult responsibilities”.
It’s not an accident that society conflates men’s servitude with qualities of adulthood – it’s the design.
As such, women begin to get nervous that their future provisioning and security are their own responsibility. How those needs are met are a discussion for various other threads I’ve written, but the social expectations of men qualifying for ‘manhood’ by assisting women to fulfill their own Hypergamous imperatives are at the root of the “sexist” accusations on Bovy’s part. To her, it’s sexist not to plan one’s life according to women’s ‘correct’ sexual strategy.
Bovy actually shares a lot with contemporary Christianity. Ensaturated by feminine primacy, the modern church has made efforts to convince men that their servitude to women is both an article of faith and a prerequisite for responsible adulthood. In a reversal of traditional faith, men aren’t men until they’ve established themselves as being capable of providing for both themselves, but for women as well. Any man shirking this is shamed for “prolonging is adolescence”. All life priority and preparation is presumed to revolve around supporting a future wife irrespective of her own decisions and the results that come from them. The contemporary church is a Beta production institution as it is, but it’s interesting to see how both Bovy and modern Christianity align on the position of men’s proper roles.
This is an interesting parallel when you consider the lengths to which women have gone to emancipate themselves from (ostensibly) being dependent upon men’s influence and provisioning. Western culture has evolved around the strong independent woman stereotype, yet it’s sexist for men to emancipate themselves from the worst of women’s sexual strategy. Bovy’s perspective relies heavily on the Old Books rules set in the misguided belief that women are still beholden to roles of domesticity and repression in an era of triumphantly embraced Open Hypergamy.
As I mentioned in the opening, it’s important that we contrast this concern for Betas leaving the plantation with the blatant soft prostitution of the Sugar Babies dynamic. In the light of women’s naked opportunism, and with that opportunism’s materialistic purpose, it’s easy to see how patently false Bovy’s premise is here.
In an era where we develop successful apps to aid women in setting their price on a basic date, it’s easy to recognize Bovy’s disingenuousness. MGTOW and its Red Pill aware derivatives are really just practical, logical responses of men protecting themselves from an Open Hypergamy women are all too ready to educate them about. The End of Men is also the eventual end of women’s expectations of long term provisioning. If Bros aren’t interested in homes the old social contract is put in jeopardy and Open Hypergamy only serves to expedite this shift. Women at the Epiphany Phase looking for the “equal partner” that Sheryl Sandberg assures her sisters will be waiting for them find that men have declined to play along.
The old joke is that if women would have sex in a cardboard box men would never buy a house. The joke’s played out now because women are happy to fuck an Alpha in much less, and now they’re proud enough to tell Betas all about it.
@Forge – Thanks! Good stuff. Keep in mind one thing. She had no attraction and only mild, professional interest in me upfront. I literally generated all this attraction after meeting her over LinkedIn at first, then she moved me to FB and then to text and then call. I kept escalating and closing and it didn’t work, so I recalibrated and pressed in again. What’s awesome here is that I got an HB8 who wasn’t attracted to become attracted to me – fucking amazing. That is a miracle. And as an older guy, that is often going to be my… Read more »
@YaReally my experiences have less relevance to the next generation who are growing up in a significantly different culture than I did Oh, shit, I forgot to mention how we used bows to start fires, then upgraded to flint and steel technology, lol…yeah I can see how you guys with tinder boxes don’t need our old experiences killing dinos since you’re hunting sabertooths now a million videos and summary articles of books that we can consume in 10 minutes vids are only preferable to text if there’s significant nonverbal video content…else it’s a helluvalot slower than text try cutNpasting a… Read more »
“Cooper trained the FBI trainers in combat shooting.”
Cooper helped invent combat pistol shooting, along with scenario based training and competition.
@Scribb All right, that adds context! Sorry if I missed some of these details in earlier comments, I’ve been partying and can’t quite keep up right now 😀 Given that it sounds like you did really well! I was kind of assuming this whole thing started out with you meeting her at a convention or some such (and so having had face-to-face contact with her). In which case taking this long to escalate things to a phone call would’ve been a little bit slow. But it sounds like you were pushing things pretty well. The girls that have translated from… Read more »
@Yareally Maybe in the USA you they need a marriage contract. In Australia they can get half your shit with no baby just by moving in with you.A mate of mine lost a property and $300,000 to a chick that lived with him for 3 years,no kids.. I’m not MGTOW but I have not had a LTR in 4 years since my divorce.I just can’t afford to lose my remaining wealth after divorce rape.I know and work with other guys who are in the same boat.All guarding their wealth.Other guys putting wealth in their parents or brothers name etc.To protect… Read more »
@Culum Struan “(SUCCESS! Solid evidence of not just my improvement but that Game Works – it literally was –> Kiss Fail on Instadate –> FR on CH –> Advice from HABD and Sentient –> Implement advice with the SAME GIRL —> Successful kiss).” lol that’s pretty funny actually. It happens though. Tyler mentions it in his really old audio, some girl who tells you to “Fuck off!!” one night, you run into her a month later and she doesn’t even remember you and loves you. It’s funny shit but this is a hilarious mexican standoff you were in not knowing… Read more »
@YaReally re- the Max infield – I literally tried this on Sat night with a couple of 7s – had already opened their group & switched over to them – they were the hottest two in the group – got some interest but tried for qualification & didn’t get much so back into A1, then got what seemed like ‘hot girl blasé’ (from 7s lol). Even with Max’s example in my head at the time, going into word association & riffing, when two girls create a vacuum of attention with active disinterest it’s verrrry hard to keep talking to yourself… Read more »
@Forge – I met her live at a monthly business event I run with an audience of hundreds, it’s not some chick on LInkedIn I’m trying to approach – I can’t remember who did the “add”. Also, the way I began was after noticing her unusual education and other background/interests that I was legitimately interested in. Example, she studied social justice but also campaigned for Rand Paul. Turns out she spent a semester studying Robert Nozick’s ideas about justice too. It’s important to note that the context was authentic. But again, I like what you are pointing out, super helpful… Read more »
@scribblerg on July 21, 2016 at 6:24
That comment is the thread winner as far as I am concerned. As one if those over 40 married guys with kids, I can confirm that this is exactly how it is. The only thing I can do is push back against the narrative in my own home, and make sure my sons understand all of this and will know how to act accordingly.
@Ya – This!! “Seniority doesn’t bring shit. We went our whole fucking LIVES listening to our older wiser elders, who told us to treat women nicely and buy them flowers and get a career we don’t care about and marry that girl we aren’t really sure about (take that fork in the road, don’t run away in fear like a pussy, right SJF?) go take up these hobbies we approve of and go do this, think that, chase this, follow that, and all this shit from a bunch of people who it turns out in the end, didn’t actually know… Read more »
@Culum, YaReally I have a new response to a common shit test:
Her: Please don’t keep talking only about sex
Me: I believe in freedom of speech
This is when you’re sexualizing and she starts shit testing you about it.
This is different from her being uncomfortable. Often I lead a girl into starting the sexualizing.
They usually do it in response to triggers.
Her: What are you doing?
Me: Laying in bed….
Girls pick up the subtext of that line.
@walawala I’m not trying to trick her or anything. After 8 years I would imagine she probably has thought about other guys. Seems pretty natural. She isn’t crazy, and I don’t have any reason to believe she is cheating or has cheated on me, but obviously… who knows. @The Man This isn’t really about the wife. It’s about me. @Culum I didn’t KNOW that… I’ll check it out thx man. @YaReally Thx for the reply I’ll check out the vids. Yeah, wife, kids, legal marriage, house, 2 cars, the whole shebang. I’d probably lose half my salary and the house,… Read more »
@ya @scribblerg Been enjoying the FRs from everybody. Lots learned and Yareally’s rehash on MM cause me to re-read it several times (already posted about a bit) and go “uh-huh” several times. My mini FR – met online (I’m still hung up on cold approaching) – she messaged me first. Older than what I’m aiming for but still 18 years my junior, which is more realistic for me at this stage of my game. Was out with a cute 24 Italian beauty last week but she fizzled out after a fun date. First date at a local tourist village/pub. Seemed… Read more »
@yaReally Regarding that third video. So. What if I WANT to be part of the “Illuminati” keeping the little guy down? I’m convinced those guys exist. They’re the faggots promoting feminism. Ok so maybe I DON’T want any part of that. But who’s in business that doesn’t do that shit? All my life I’ve been so confused as to how to succeed whether it’s in Blue Pill society OR the Real World that exists between the lines. A stutter, and an awful start coupled with ever-expanding social technologies didn’t help. All this time I thought of going out as a… Read more »
@Andy- oLTR can just be a prelude to divorce, so just be ready for that with a plan.
Big Al – you still out there?
Culum Couple of further thoughts for you… funny story, same girl and all… Again note this is an ONLINE girl and you run into the same problems… too much lead time creates more expectations in her mind, if you are not creating much in attraction in the lead up, you will have to continue to deal with disarming her expectations first, then building attraction back up. Also was this a former sugar site girl? 3.5 hours… man you are setting records. It’s good to stay in set and see if through but you are experienced enough now, you need to… Read more »
@scribblerg “Lol, from the mouths of babes. She said she was surprised that I didn’t feel guilty about hitting on her and how she liked that, like it was very different from how most guys were and not just the older guys. Fucking jackpot – led to sexual convo in which I said, “Yeah, I feel entitled to every good thing I want in life. Including sex with hot 21yo women.”” Good to hear – I get the “old man” thing alot too with the 18-24 crowd and I just roll with it. “I’m just a dirty old man/pervert” is… Read more »
Yeah, thats the eventual outcome. I don’t think there’s any way around that. Or I can just suck it up for 15 years…
@Blax Awesome explanation, thanks! It’s actually interesting to hear you talk about unconscious social conditioning toward mariage, I had not thought about that, but it makes perfect sense, esp if most of the marriages around you lasted a long time. Regarding being able to fuck just one woman, I’m really beginning to feel like it’s a build-in difference in guys, that everyone is on a spectrum, from incapable to fuck the same girl twice, to unable to even think about a girl other than their wife/gf. For me I feel like I’m strongly closer to the first category, so I… Read more »
@Scribblerg “A lot of this “advice” seems to be about validating the life choices of the men giving the advice, not actually meeting men here where they are.” I didn’t wanna come right out and say it, but this. lol @Andy Remember, out there in the wild the girls will be exactly the same (AWALT). And may not come with some of the benefits your wife comes with (witness the girls in a lot of our FRs here lol) Like, don’t make the mistake of thinking “I feel betrayed/duped by this girl (who didn’t really DO anything, society just blinded… Read more »
Andy: “This isn’t really about the wife. It’s about me. ” In the context of what you have written so far, … I don’t have clue what you mean by the above quoted. What do you mean? You getting starfish sex only and want more? You’ve tried for capturing and playing with her sex-mind but that hasn’t worked? Is she butthurt about the relationship? If so have you determined that she is butthurt for no good reason? If that is 4 yes’s to those 4 questions – well – maybe dread is what is needed. I can’t help you with… Read more »
@ya Like you’re going slower with her than you technically NEED to. Like Scray is probably pulling his hair out saying “JUST TELL HER TO COME SUCK YOUR DICK ALREADY AGHHH!!!” lol it’s funny because I mean…when you right you right. I was reading and like…COME ON DUDE SHE’S ALREADY PRACTICALLY SUCKING YOUR DICK. @all so….banged a legit model this weekend (tons of hot girls are models, so i guess i have to start demarcating the model tiers now). one with photos in popular magazines. and….. … AWALT. I was actually shocked (in an amused way) at how ruthless yet… Read more »
@Culum You are not getting better. You are getting worse. And you must be slow, which is why you still do the same stupid shit time after time. I told you before, follow Black Dragon’s system when you do on-line game. You are proving him right. You violated every one of his major points: * longer than one hour first day – Triggered her ASD * used one date template and pushed for sex – triggered her ASD * kissing and make out on 1st date – triggered her ASD * You came across as overly gamey, she must have… Read more »
@scray “lol it’s funny because I mean…when you right you right. I was reading and like…COME ON DUDE SHE’S ALREADY PRACTICALLY SUCKING YOUR DICK.” lol to be fair I thought the same thing. But not being in person it’s like meh, fuck, only so much you can do. “banged a legit model this weekend (tons of hot girls are models, so i guess i have to start demarcating the model tiers now). one with photos in popular magazines.” lol ya, pretty much every decent looking girl with an Instagram account has done some kind of modelling for pay and calls… Read more »
“……. the men get young sexy feminine energy. Everyone wins. Except the girls who rode the cock carousel till they hit the wall lol”
I mean no disrespect ….. but an honest question. Isn’t your lifestyle a promotion of young women riding the cock carousel? So win/lose is OK as long as you are the one doing the winning? But you otherwise seem to promote win/win? What gives?
“Isn’t your lifestyle a promotion of young women riding the cock carousel? So win/lose is OK as long as you are the one doing the winning? But you otherwise seem to promote win/win? What gives?”
Haven’t you heard? I’m a nihilistic scumbag. 😉
@yareally and crew Hey ya, need text advice again. Different chick. Meet her Thurs at high end venue (stole her from bottle service VIP table) Context: 21yr Asian HB8. Did not bang. Tried hard. Denied her my phone number several times (Got her number last second before she got in taxi so didn’t time bridge). Ran hardcore RSD game she loved it. Decided to tone it down via text Yesterday sent her: hey what time are you finished with work tommorow 40 minutes ago sent her faux beta bitter text: ya I never wanted to see you again either. 5… Read more »
“A lot of this “advice” seems to be about validating the life choices of the men giving the advice, not actually meeting men here where they are.”
I didn’t wanna come right out and say it, but this. lol
Projection of your own validation-seeking because of your massive insecurity. I can’t lol about that. YaReally misses the mark yet again.
We are DHVing to show you that you have options, not because we give a fuck about your approval, lol.
@j It’s fine, she’s trying to get to know you ’cause you have lots of A2 but minimal C1. Give a bit and tease a bit. She won’t not meet up from your name or your job, but your age might cause some problems if it’s significantly different, so I would do something like “YaReally, (real job), and way too old for you.” She’s attracted so she won’t care really, but no reason to just answer everything. When she asks again go “I’ll tell you tonight. 9pm, Location, wear heels. Now stop distracting me from my work.” The jist is… Read more »
@Scray – Let me be clear. You don’t think I should escalate sexually when there is no attraction, right? Now it may be true that I missed the signals but she only came around after a ton of DHV and push pull and spiking.
The other problem was logistics, am working on those. But her temp may have dropped.
YaReally: “Haven’t you heard? I’m a nihilistic scumbag” OK – yeah – I get the humor – and it is funny, because we know you aren’t a nihilistic scumbag, because you do have a desire to help people, like what you do here on this forum. You get alot of respect from people here for that, including mine. So ….. just wondering how you reconcile that trope – “……. the men get young sexy feminine energy. Everyone wins. Except the girls who rode the cock carousel till they hit the wall lol”, with your lifestyle, given that you otherwise seem… Read more »
@YaReally / PUAs with some LTR experience or knowledge:
In addition to all my other issues (long distance and so on), even after knowing Red Pill, the quantity and quality of the sex has been improving but very slowly. Recently another MRP poster mentioned he has a similar religious, N=1 wife, and similar issues. Introducing new techniques or positions is very tricky.
Now the answer is “have / demonstrate higher value”, but how to do that a little bit faster?
The N=1 wife thing is assuming the respective wives haven’t cheated since losing her virginity.
@The Man lol a less flippant response: I don’t try to change the rules, I just adapt to them and prosper within them. Guys like gb_hill are frustrated, they want the rules to change, everything should be different, everything should be how they want, grrrr!! They’re mad as heck and they’re not gonna take it anymore!! But at the end of the day gb_hill is a nobody who will do nothing to change the world. He knows that he’s insignificant so he puts the responsibilities he can’t accomplish on other people. Now it’s “you disrespectful kids better do such and… Read more »
@YaReally Dude I’ve been feeling so much better about myself since you and the others have been helping me to see past my own internal bs. I believe having this back and forth between you and me and others like SJF and ScribblerG has been a great way for me to work out my internals. Have I told you how much my relationship with my brother and my parents has improved since I learned as much as I have about game? It’s like the nasty scary monster they gave up trying to beat, they see me beating it. Alot of… Read more »
I’m not even going to contribute any mean-spirited supercilious comeback to YaReally of Scribbler.
“So ….. just wondering how you reconcile that trope”
Boy’s are not girls. And free will is a bitch.
@Scray – Ooops, pressed post accidentally. My question is how to reignite the attraction if the temp has dropped? I think i just neg hard, right? Then whip out my dick!!! Thanks for the moral support, your example is inspiring. Fucked a couple of models myself, and a porn star…The porn star was better, @GB_Hill – Your anger is a concerning, mostly because such an attitude usually means that you have some issues cooking away inside. If you don’t deal with it, some day you are going to go off on some young guy IRL and he’s going to rip… Read more »
@The Man Bitches gonna ride the carousel whether you’re a seat on it or not. Might as well enjoy being a seat for a while, seeing as the carousel plays directly in to the male sexual strategy if you’re an apex male. @YaReally The acrimonious butthurt in your direction on this thread is simultaneously hilarious and cringe-inducing. It’s like some people can’t even see their own emotional investment making them stupid. Small FR: Saturday night, out at the bar near me to meet friends who failed to show. “Decided to smoke a bowl” apparently. Whatever, time to meet folks. Talk… Read more »
“Now the answer is “have / demonstrate higher value”, but how to do that a little bit faster?”
Dread… and outcome independence…
@IAS “Recently another MRP poster mentioned he has a similar religious, N=1 wife, and similar issues. Introducing new techniques or positions is very tricky.” I don’t have any real deep advice on this one, just the standard stuff everyone else will tell you. But this quote reminds me of Tyler’s rant that I always think about when I see the Manosphere guys pedestalizing those low N-count virgins: “You want this pristine virgin good religious girl who’s never had sex with anyone before…but then you’re surprised she’s not a raging wild pornstar slut in bed. wtf did you expect?” lol Of… Read more »
That’s swagger man. Good going.
@Sun Wukong “The acrimonious butthurt in your direction on this thread is simultaneously hilarious and cringe-inducing. It’s like some people can’t even see their own emotional investment making them stupid.” lol I’m used to it. The funny part to me is that everyone else is ramping their shit up at me and then when I just defend myself and ramp it up right back at them, they pull the victim card out like Feminists/SJWs do, about how “mean-spirited” I am and misinterpreting shit to play into their victim narrative…ie – “your knowledge is outdated” becomes “you are useless and should… Read more »
YaReally: OK – maybe it was an unfortunate coincidence that I noticed something in your comments that got to me to wondering, around the same time you are having a different exchange with gb_hill. So I don’t think I’m chiming in with jb_hill (you know because it could be maybe the trope your put forward, itself, is illogical – not sure – but it occurs to me that that should at least be up for consideration). So …… you still really haven’t answered my question …… how you reconcile that trope – “……. the men get young sexy feminine energy.… Read more »
Yareally The question is: who’s holding you to that value system and why is their opinion important to you? gb_hill thinks I’m a piece of shit. SJF, asdgamer, Sentient all think I’m a disrespectful tool bla bla none of that matters lol ’cause who are they? Just some names on a screen, why would their estimation of me affect my self-worth in any way? Notreally… you made this up in respect to me. I just think you are naive in many ways… and act like a gamma too much of the time, preferring wasteful made up argument to dialogue on… Read more »
@scribblerg “You don’t think I should escalate sexually when there is no attraction, right?” wtf how did you get no attraction from your FR? here let me hone in on the big giveaway: Over an hour on the phone, ton of text, it’s way too much to give the blow by blow here lol if a girl is spending any sort of 1-1 quality time with you….she’s attracted. less hot girls will give way more hints and blah blah blah. but true hotties aren’t going to hold your hand….unless you grab theirs first lol. We are texting about phones and… Read more »
@YaReally “at my country bar, the guys doing the approaches are typically late 30s to 40s and the girls are 20s and 30s” lol I’ve been to country bars, I know what kind of guys and girls go to those places. You yourself have written multiple FRs about macking old-ass chicks there. Now they’re suddenly all hot 21 year olds. Lol, there’s a mix at this bar…which is both country and hookup…old broads are getting laid, too, with guys they meet at the bar…I always dance with a mix of girls…young, old, fat, trim…chatted up a hot bartender girl (early… Read more »
@YaReally SJF, asdgamer, Sentient all think I’m a disrespectful tool Notreally. I echo Sentient’s thoughts and almost always agree with him, except about men’s looks being important to anyone but themselves. I think he’s quite a bit younger than I am, so that’s surprising and amusing. Reading about something like travel, safaris, etc. is supposed to be a breadcrumb so that you will want to experience it for yourself. Game observation. I’ve noticed that lower class and LMC girls frequently have a higher threshold before ASD kicks in than UMC girls, who generally have a lower threshold. The aforementioned bartender… Read more »
Too many fucking gammas mouthing off.
You can spot gammas…they insert themselves in arguments in which they have no investment. Sun, scrib come to mind….
He did also tell you it’s not really your job to try to “save” the world. In fact he argues that people’s socially conditioned frame of mind tells them to make something ugly and devious out of how we simply operate on an unconscious level.
@The Man “So …… you still really haven’t answered my question …… how you reconcile that trope” I don’t know what you’re question is. What do you want me to reconcile? What outcome are you trying to get out? I have no idea what you’re talking about lol It’s like I said “The sky is blue” and you’re saying “Well how do you reconcile that?” I literally have no idea what you think needs reconciling lol “So it seems that perhaps you are answering the question by way of saying ……. “I didn’t make up the perverse rules …… some… Read more »
Yollo Comanche: “He did also tell you it’s not really your job to try to “save” the world. In fact he argues that people’s socially conditioned frame of mind tells them to make something ugly and devious out of how we simply operate on an unconscious level” The way I see it – I get to decide what my job is (as does everybody). I am deeply interested in human nature. Always have been. Trying to understand that is one of my passions. So knowing more about that has always been my job. But stylizing my proclivity as an interest… Read more »
@The Man – You not understanding is the theme of your entire presence here. When are you going to give up on your pretensions about actually trying to be constructive here and admit that you have no interest in TRP? That you see yourself as beyond it or above it or some shit like that?
it’s clear to me. You don’t get it, buy it or want it. Fair enough. Honest question: What the fuck are you doing here? What purpose does this serve for you? Don’t answer me – answer yourself.
@scribblerg Ooops, pressed post accidentally. My question is how to reignite the attraction if the temp has dropped? I think i just neg hard, right? Then whip out my dick!!! Thanks for the moral support, your example is inspiring. as long as you haven’t gone full simp, just invite her to hang out with you or something and you being your charming motherfucking self = raise temp. instead of ‘negging’ just follow this simple rule: NEVER compliment her appearance. no matter how bad she starts to want it, no matter what…. if you need to pay her a compliment, compliment… Read more »
@The Man: “Maybe this could even be stylized as a polarity.”
“Maybe he knows something unspoken that no one else sees yet …. ”
It may be rocket science, but it’s junior high level rocket science.
” . . . I very much value the dialectical method.”
Then you might be well advised to read Aristotle and learn it.
@The Man New ways of thinking emerge and fall out of favor with the never-ending chase of the incredulous of the forerunners. I suspect it ways has been this way. I’ve been just as obsessed as you if not more so concerning human nature and many times I’ve felt that there’s “nothing really special about it”. Human nature is also how we feel in the moment and not just what we think of human nature as an abstract concept. It’s what humans DO to us that makes us remember them and what being a human feels like that seems to… Read more »
“You can read alot and still be an idiot”
Bring on the FR dude, for inspiration!
Never banged a “real” model, just a few girls who appeared in American Apparel ads lol
Turbulence is born in the gap where truth has been excluded. Although you may not realize it, you are primordial. If you have never experienced this explosion at the speed of light, it can be difficult to grow. Entity, look within and heal yourself. You may be ruled by greed without realizing it. Do not let it erase the nature of your mission. We can no longer afford to live with suffering. Stagnation is the antithesis of consciousness. Affirmations may be the solution to what’s holding you back from an enormous uprising of potential. Through feng shui, our chakras are… Read more »
@ IAS “Now the answer is “have / demonstrate higher value”, but how to do that a little bit faster?” In addition to all my other issues (long distance and so on), even after knowing Red Pill, the quantity and quality of the sex has been improving but very slowly. Recently another MRP poster mentioned he has a similar religious, N=1 wife, and similar issues. Introducing new techniques or positions is very tricky. “Now the answer is “have / demonstrate higher value”, but how to do that a little bit faster?” In regards to dread and DHV. What things have… Read more »
……You begin by withdrawing your time and attention and later, if that doesn’t work you begin withdrawing affection and presence…..
Forgot to close the blockquote of BPP’s quote after that sentence. the words following that are mine.
Yollo Comanche – seems like we may have some of the same passions. I like some of your ideas. I agree with everything you say except I do think humans are exceptional, and also I think new ways of thinking that emerge that are exceptional by way of merit, do occasionally occur, and don’t so much fall out of favor but instead are incorporated within the consensus and built upon. YaReally – OK thanks for getting back. I guess I’m wondering how to conceive of pua, in the larger overall social picture, especially wrt how quickly things are changing in… Read more »
@walawala – lol that’s a good line – will check out. @Sentient – I take your point. I hadn’t thought about the larger picture of walking away. YaReally has suggested basically the same thing – withdrawing attention from a girl who isn’t in A2/compliance but in a broader sense, I could just walk away if she’s boring me even if there is compliance or whatever. I’ll keep it in mind although I am mostly focussing on cold approach now and there aren’t going to be more dates for a while. Yes, this was a girl I met on a sugar… Read more »
At your age you really should keep the stress down there, big guy. Don’t obsess too much over me.
Hey Sun – that’s my favorite FR in a longtime. Slick man.
Don’t play around like that Rollo. I thought you flipped your wig for a minute there, or somebody hijacked your account.
“Yes, this was a girl I met on a sugar site although she’s not looking for money ”
I thought so… I chalk a lot of the weirdness up to this… she didn’t really know how to get the $$$… an amateur.
No more sugar babies….
@Andy I’ve been in a very similar situ: 15+ years with the same girl, both N=1, married in late 20. and a kid before 30. I had been Blue Pill all the way until later last year, mid 30. I was so f*ing mad at myself for being so socially retarded/manipulated. But this kick right in the balls helped me enormously and motivated me to revisit what I really wanted in life. It’s not a “one off” thing and every month I’m digging deeper through my own bullshit, rewiring old mental habits, trying to refine what type of a lifestyle… Read more »
@Sun – Co-sign Yareally’s comment. You sound like a different man, and a better one. So much progress by so many on this forum. Notice it’s the guys who struggle and fall short and bitch and suffer and keep it real who’s growth is exploding. Not the guys with all the answers and endless sermonizing. I mean seriously, I have to listen to guys who haven’t stuck their dick into a 20something year old hottie in decades tell me what’s what here. I’ve got a newsflash for all of you – you aren’t some kind of world class PUA or… Read more »
@The Man You say a lot of random stuff so I’m just going to address bits and pieces where I can tell what you’re actually talking about lol “Pua cannot be ignored as a cultural force in the west that does contribute to these ongoing changes (as same goes for feminism and liberalism).” I agree with this. TRP (from MRA to PUA/TRP to MGTOW) in general is a force that’s GOING to have impact on society. “What does it all mean?” Why does it have to mean anything? There’s no meaning to life. There’s no higher purpose. We can MAKE… Read more »
YaReally and Scribbler: scroll by this. It is not directed at you. It is directed at the rest of the commentariat. fineman: Whatever you decide, there is this f*king important point in the book, perhaps mentioned only briefly, which I discovered independently and saw it like a neon sign: it will NOT work (nothing will, BD’s/Ya’s non-monogamy, Rollo’s/Blax’s monogamy) if you don’t keep your shit together, if you don’t find out what you want, if you don’t know what your core and boundaries are and how to stick to them, if you don’t man up to be independent of and… Read more »
Oops, the link in the comment directed at “knowing yourself” which everyone else has advised after, was supposed to be this:
And more abstract, not for the concrete thinker bullshit:
Sorry I can’t translate for the mind of a five year old like Ya needs.
@SJF “YaReally and Scribbler: scroll by this. It is not directed at you. It is directed at the rest of the commentariat.” And then in the middle of it you take a bunch of jabs at me. “I’m going to talk shit to you but don’t you read it or respond to me!!” Such weasel behavior lol Listen to what a condescendingly arrogant fuck you sound like dude, really re-read this: “Oh, wait. I actually did say that, but it must have gone over the heads of some that can’t handle abstract thinking that most successful-at-life masculine guys do, to… Read more »
YaReally Sentient Scray HABD and PUA gang Kiddie Nightclub Solo FR Monday night – gonna be a lot of real beginner cold approach FRs from me from now (I am 36 remember). Tuesday: Gonna hit the Latin dance place solo that has a good crowd (unless I can get a chick I banged two months ago to come over). Wednesday probably check out the high-end hotel bars “Sentient-style” (lol) because I’ll be in my suit anyway. Thursday – probably a “regular” nightclub for a big solo night. Man after Monday night I really need to watch RSD Todd’s recent videos… Read more »
@fineman, awesome breakdown.
@Andy and now @fineman: you guys are like me, but with kids. Thanks for posting, it helps me also to figure out what I want and ponder the different choices.
I don’t know why that book fucked with my head so much. I feel like someone changed the laws of physics. I’m coming down a little bit, but I still feeling mind fucked right now. Obviously I’ve encountered plenty of evidence that girls were that sexual, but I just tossed it aside. I’ve never been a judgmental guy, so I don’t know why my girlfriends never brought up fantasies like that… I don’t know. @fineman Great comment. Thanks man. I found this place I would say a little over a year ago, I’ve change a lot. I’m definitely more social…… Read more »
Good for you gaining insight and progress with your wife and for the kids Andy. Great conversation with your wife.
If I weren’t such a condescending asshole and didn’t try to poke you (as an in-group member) to draw out that discussion, the discussion and the recs from fineman and Ya would have never happened.
(KJ theory possibility)
I don’t see why the fact that girls are willing to come to your place so quickly is a problem (re: Krauser). You can gain a little bit of C3, have isolation to ramp up some flirting and even have some control over the environment (props if necessary et.c). As long as you enter with the man-to-woman frame, not be asexual, it’s easy to build in comfort as well as throwing spikes of attraction/flirting.
Throw a girl out after some time, having set the next date to be in your house. Sounds pretty convenient.
@N1 – I don’t think YaReally is saying that isolating at home is a bad thing.
He’s just saying we need to be aware that with younger girls (let’s say born after 1990), coming to your place doesn’t signify that they have already decided to bang you, as is the case with older women. So we just need to adjust accordingly.
But yeah, if you can get her home and isolated that’s a good thing for sure.
“If I weren’t such a condescending asshole and didn’t try to poke you (as an in-group member) to draw out that discussion, the discussion and the recs from fineman and Ya would have never happened.” @SJF Oh yeah dude… THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH! You’ve been such a HUGE help to me! *sarcasm* If I get this shit worked out and have a threesome with my wife and the captain of the volleyball team I’ll be sure to post the LR so you have to confront the reality that you don’t have to fuck your wrinkly wife for the… Read more »
Why do you guys keep referring to my wife as wrinkly?
@Sentient & @YaReally – point taken about HB6 date – it could also well be the money but I had a strong vibe of “I just want to have fun on the town” from her, not money but yeah given the circumstances could have been money too. And yes, it was a perfect opportunity to just qualify her on something silly and walk out on the date – but exactly like YaReally said – I remember the post very well, but at the time it never occurred to me – I was just like “Forward, forward, if I can get… Read more »
“Why do you guys keep referring to my wife as wrinkly?”
Remember that time you doxxed yourself?
@Culum He’s just saying we need to be aware that with younger girls (let’s say born after 1990), coming to your place doesn’t signify that they have already decided to bang you, as is the case with older women. So we just need to adjust accordingly. Maybe I’m weird, but every time a girl from that set has shown up at my place they’ve been down to fuck. Last one was pretty much insistent that we fuck, even though we’d never even kissed before that night. Of course I’d been around her and teased her a lot previously, so she… Read more »
Aaaaaand fucked the blockquotes up again. *sigh*
Still here lol, getting caught up from the weekend. Lot of good stuff to chew on. Will post more soon
“Remember that time you doxxed yourself?”
Yeah, What? did you see some ugly Photobucket pics?
@Andy, “Man, reading My Secret Garden is crushing any of the last vestiges of hope I had wrt the reality of monogamy. It’s just a cruel joke.” My apologies for the “insecure” interpretation I made of your post. It’s clear you’re on your way to resolution of the Female Reality vs. Female Matrix Deception issue. Just to be clear, though, Nancy Friday’s book is just a slight peep at the huge expanse of female sexuality that they keep discrete from men who are not part of the Secret Society. Women remind me of icebergs. They have a small, appealing island… Read more »
@Andy, *”I don’t know why that book fucked with my head so much. I feel like someone changed the laws of physics. I’m coming down a little bit, but I still feeling mind fucked right now. Obviously I’ve encountered plenty of evidence that girls were that sexual, but I just tossed it aside.”* It’s funny. People who have seen the reality keep saying “Women are more sexual than men” but they just get laughed off by the men who aren’t willing to see. After all, don’t guys get horny three times a day at least, and jack off day in… Read more »
haha, yeah, I’ve known about all that… I guess I should have read them. I tried reading 50 Shades of Gray but it was SO BAD, I just couldn’t stomach it. Lost of a lot respect for women reading that. lol. I mean the writing, not the sex stuff. I guess it was just hearing the fantasies from the women themselves, it’s just undeniable at that point.
Culum “[opens] just got a LOT harder after the phase-shift to drunken hookup stage” If things are getting too noisy and what not, just head out front and do street game in front of the club… lot of people coming but also a lot of girls leaving at this point… so you have momentum in your favor already… “there was also 1 girl who actually looked like she had come solo but I missed one opportunity to open her at the bar situationally and then wimped out of approaching her later when she was sitting alone at a table –… Read more »
Great post… should be an inspiration to guys.. instead of sitting around moaning and being angry at “the FI” – to take responsibility for your life and take action (Dynamic!) in an honest way (Authentic!) with passion…
If you are still looking for inspiration…. the erotic thrill of a bad boy hedge hog from the wrong side of the tracks…
Mini FR: Took my time with the HB8 LinkedIn girl and closed her just 10 mins ago for a thurs night date. I dangled it a couple of times, didn’t push and then closed. Her response, “I would love to go out with you on Thursday night.” And the excitement in her voice was palpable. It was interesting, we had a couple of phone conversations and I just didn’t feel it was the right time to close so I just enjoyed talking to her. We actually have some really deep kind of similarities with family challenges and she had initially… Read more »
@YaReally @all I’m having a 3rd date with my new 39yo (she could technically be my daughter, hehe) – supper at my place. The question is, I want to make this relationship *very* sexual; no more blue pill shit for me. The usual formula of invite over, show around, supper, bang to me is BP. I want to bang her almost as soon as she arrives, relax, eat, and possibly have more sex after. We already text about fucking etc so I feel I can try to push for this right off the bat. Is this reasonable or am I… Read more »
So, my approach on Thurs will be to kino and build comfort, right? Also, logistics are tricky, we’ll be a long way from my place and likely closer to hers. Don’t know if she has a roommate, so how do I handle? Fuck her in the car? I could get a hotel but that seems too needy. One thought is to leave her gagging for it and close for her to come up to the lake over the weekend. Advice? I would say you have gobs of comfort already and the trick will be sexualizing… you need to follow through… Read more »
Here’s what I’m pretty sure Tom has been hinting at in the above post.
To quote Krauser: “This is why when you become an Advanced Player your stories become literally unbelievable to the average man. He’s literally never seen that world. He was never allowed into the Secret Society.”
I’ve pulled back the curtain for you. Will you believe it? Can a guy get into his own wife’s Secret Society? I don’t know. I can’t do any field testing.
@DisgruntledEarthling: if that is what you want, sexualize and initiate as she arrives. Believe that it can happen, but be prepared to “calibrate” and back-off if needed, and not be butt hurt if it doesn’t happen.
Yeah, the ridiculous thing is that I’ve read all that shit. YaReally’s whole archive, Tyler Digest… Most of Blackdragon’s blog. For whatever reason My Secret Garden is the only thing that makes it click. They just want to slutty, slutty, dirty whores and be loved for it. lol. Can’t wait.