About three weeks ago I was made aware of an article on the New Republic blog called Bros Before Homes and a few of my followers on Twitter asked me for my take on it then. I did feel it merited more than 140 characters so I figured I’d build a post on it. Honestly, I had more than a couple irons in the fire for blog posts ahead of this, but in hindsight now I’m glad I waited a bit before digging too far in.
I am going to riff on it here, but before I do I’d like to point out that my posting Sugar Babies, before this post was a strategic decision on my part. You’ll understand why a bit later, but keep in mind the general premise of that post – women’s commodification of intimacy dynamic – and the priority of self-importance women place on themselves with regards to what men must pay for and why women believe they’re worth men’s having to pay for it.
I’m asking readers to keep this in mind because Bros Before Homes will contrast starkly next to Sugar Babies.
From the tone of the article you probably won’t need to look up Phoebe Maltz Bovy‘s portfolio to understand her clichéd feminist bias. It’s all of the self-importance and the prerequisite solipsism you’d expect from ‘journalists’ of her stripe, but try to read past the snark she thinks is interesting. Her sarcasm only highlights women’s duplicity with regards to men freeing themselves from the Feminine Imperative and women commodifying their intimate interests in ‘acceptable’ men.
The gist of Bovy’s fabricated angst is how offensively sexist it is for men to prioritize life experience, exploration, self-betterment, hobbies and the virtue signaling she sees inherent in men when they actually go their own way. Men cutting themselves free from the expectations of the Feminine Imperative and a feminine-primary social order always imply the threat of them coming to realize their own value.
It’s also that the very idea of experiences mattering more than things is a way of valorizing the stereotypically masculine. “While men are conditioned to dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas and long nights of hilarity—women are now encouraged to find deep fulfilment in staying home to origami our pants,” she wrote.
Whether women are being encouraged to rid our homes of useless belongings, or urged to shop for new ones, the result is the same: Society continues to associate women with the home and the material, men with the outside and experiences. While the enjoyment of domestic life, of stuff, isn’t inherently negative, it is dismissed precisely because of its associations with the feminine. An orientation towards stuff over experiences, moreover, gets cast either as recklessly materialist or, as Tony perceives it, an impediment to enjoying life. The only constant is that what women prefer, or are imagined to prefer, is thought inferior.
[…]We’re meant to admire the experience-lovers for their indifference to stuff, which implies they’ve got their priorities straight: to live life to the fullest. It’s no coincidence, though, that these experience-lovers are so often male, as it’s a stereotypically male aspiration not to be “tied down”—that is, not to have domestic responsibilities. But these men do have roofs over their heads. The bourgeois life they’re rejecting is simply one they’ve outsourced. After all, Tony hasn’t rejected the material life. He’s just got a woman—his mother—tidying up after him.
Bovy’s presumptions here smack of her reaching for some way to denigrate men’s pragmatically eschewing materialism or being tethered to what would otherwise be considered “grown up” responsibilities and looking for something more personally meaningful for themselves. As with all femosphere journalists you get a bonus 10% on your women’s studies essays if you can find a way to sneak the word’s “sexism” or “misogyny” in a piece.
Bros Before Homes is really nothing novel in the manosphere. MGTOWs have been advocating this reward-for-independence from women for as long as there’s been a movement. What is novel is that this return to a man being his own mental point of origin and prioritizing life experiences as his first priority is a result of an awareness that’s now filtering into the mainstream. It’s very easy to criticize men for being juvenile about foregoing what popular culture would have us believe is preparing ourselves for adulthood, but when this new idealism affects the men women hope will be well-positioned Betas when they’ve reached the end of their Party Years, then there’s cause for concern.
As a side note here, I should also say that it’s interesting to see how fluidly the progress of feminism comes full circle in Bovy’s thought process. She uses the same ambiguous tropes of a regressive society expecting women to resign themselves to domesticity and tidying up after men as if 60+ years of Fempowerment “leveling the playing field” never occurred. This is the same, very tired, cover story that second wave feminism used in the sixties.
The underlying irritation here is that men’s new prioritizing of experiences above materialism is a thorn in the side of women who’ve been given carte blanche to their Hypergamous whims. Bovy cries sexism because she presumes men are unable to engage in all this experience seeking without a support team of mothers and house-bound women, but what really makes her sore is that men doing the seeking reminds women of their natural predilection for materialism and the base of opportunism their concept of love is founded upon.
Bovy’s first mistake is that she’s statistically inaccurate.
The Blue Pill conditioning of the past 60 years has done everything but teach men to “dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas”. That particular conditioning is reserved for women playing along with the Eat, Pray, Love narrative. If anything it’s just the opposite. From education to family to church, men are conditioned for servile Beta-hood and lambasted for not ‘Manning Up’ and being supportive of women’s empowerment at the cost of their own. Conversely, women and womankind have been lifted to unrealistic idealism in pursuing their own interests at the cost of childbearing and monogamous domesticity. Apparently, Bovy’s never read Lean In or even watched a Disney princess movie in the last 50 years.
Off the Reservation
What worries women is that all the Blue Pill conditioning men have endured for the past several decades might be undone if men were to actually make themselves their mental point of origin. What worries the representatives of the Feminine Imperative is that Betas might see the pragmatism in following the example of men who put themselves first. Men who eschew the trappings of building their lives around the materialism women seek when their looks fade and their need for men’s resource security is a better prospect than having to compete for men with their sisters. When marriage is an easily recognizable sucker’s bet to the point that even Betas can see the sense in avoiding it, that’s when the Feminine Imperative must shift to a new tactic.
Open Hypergamy makes for aware Betas. Men aware of the game they are expected to play must either tamp that understanding down into denial or they simply refuse to play. That refusal can come in many examples, but the reasoning is the same. The deductive, pragmatic response is for men to go their own way and put themselves at the beginning of their thought processes and goals.
The success of women’s sexual strategy depends on ignorant Betas being prepared to meet (or wait for them) at the time at which their need for security is the greatest. This expectation of Betas in Waiting is part of a Hypergamous plan; it is the consolidation of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks prioritization (also known as the Sandberg Plan). Bros Before Homes is an offense to this plan.
This then becomes a paradox for the Feminine Imperative. A man’s life experiences are generally a wellspring of attraction if not arousal for a woman. Experience is the source of a genuine Amused Mastery and a man’s self-serving experience is usually a prime indicator of an Alpha mindset. My Red Pill brother Goldmund is a perfect example of how personal, self-asserted, self-initiated experiences can be parlayed into a very effective Game.
Be that as it is, the proposition of any and every Beta going MGTOW in various ways, hitting the open road and regaling women with the stories of their exploits presents a problem to Hypergamy; Hypergamy wants certainty and a well-traveled Beta is still a Beta. Furthermore, living for the experiential implies less investment in Beta men developing skills, status, affluence and the personal equity that make them good prospects for Beta providership when they reach the critical age at which women need their cooperation in fulfilling their Hypergamy. At least, that’s the implied concern for women. Men with a sense to educate themselves from experience are usually all the better for it – even when that experience is a nightmare.
I should add here that prioritizing experience above other consideration needn’t be limited to Bovy’s silly impressions of Jack Kerouac’s On the Road. What concerns the feminine is that men would devote the lion’s share of their personal efforts on anything unrelated to meeting women’s future or present security needs. It’s not just men wanting to scale Mount Vesuvius, it’s men having any self-import at the expense of women. When men’s ambitions are centered on satisfying themselves and not about developing equity that’s useful to women, that’s when those men (and those who would encourage it) are shamed for not being an adult. They are shamed for not manning up or growing up to meet the needs of women and thus not living up to “adult responsibilities”.
Responsible Adults
It’s not an accident that society conflates men’s servitude with qualities of adulthood – it’s the design.
As such, women begin to get nervous that their future provisioning and security are their own responsibility. How those needs are met are a discussion for various other threads I’ve written, but the social expectations of men qualifying for ‘manhood’ by assisting women to fulfill their own Hypergamous imperatives are at the root of the “sexist” accusations on Bovy’s part. To her, it’s sexist not to plan one’s life according to women’s ‘correct’ sexual strategy.
Bovy actually shares a lot with contemporary Christianity. Ensaturated by feminine primacy, the modern church has made efforts to convince men that their servitude to women is both an article of faith and a prerequisite for responsible adulthood. In a reversal of traditional faith, men aren’t men until they’ve established themselves as being capable of providing for both themselves, but for women as well. Any man shirking this is shamed for “prolonging is adolescence”. All life priority and preparation is presumed to revolve around supporting a future wife irrespective of her own decisions and the results that come from them. The contemporary church is a Beta production institution as it is, but it’s interesting to see how both Bovy and modern Christianity align on the position of men’s proper roles.
This is an interesting parallel when you consider the lengths to which women have gone to emancipate themselves from (ostensibly) being dependent upon men’s influence and provisioning. Western culture has evolved around the strong independent woman stereotype, yet it’s sexist for men to emancipate themselves from the worst of women’s sexual strategy. Bovy’s perspective relies heavily on the Old Books rules set in the misguided belief that women are still beholden to roles of domesticity and repression in an era of triumphantly embraced Open Hypergamy.
Materialism
As I mentioned in the opening, it’s important that we contrast this concern for Betas leaving the plantation with the blatant soft prostitution of the Sugar Babies dynamic. In the light of women’s naked opportunism, and with that opportunism’s materialistic purpose, it’s easy to see how patently false Bovy’s premise is here.
In an era where we develop successful apps to aid women in setting their price on a basic date, it’s easy to recognize Bovy’s disingenuousness. MGTOW and its Red Pill aware derivatives are really just practical, logical responses of men protecting themselves from an Open Hypergamy women are all too ready to educate them about. The End of Men is also the eventual end of women’s expectations of long term provisioning. If Bros aren’t interested in homes the old social contract is put in jeopardy and Open Hypergamy only serves to expedite this shift. Women at the Epiphany Phase looking for the “equal partner” that Sheryl Sandberg assures her sisters will be waiting for them find that men have declined to play along.
The old joke is that if women would have sex in a cardboard box men would never buy a house. The joke’s played out now because women are happy to fuck an Alpha in much less, and now they’re proud enough to tell Betas all about it.
The man she’s speaking of in the article is doing two things that drive Western post-Feminist women absolutely crazy: not making women like her the center of his attention and not spending his abundant wealth on her. And aside from still living with his mother, he’s doing the right thing.
Kaminsky “Battered and defeated betas simply … go full steam into [insert activity] … but in so doing they tick off several alpha-boxes… just by being [men] who like to dive into a hobby.” and in doing so the dynamic, passionate and authentic LIFE becomes the supra game gravitational force that pulls following women into its orbit… Game is an essential tool, get as much study and practice as you can, but the embodiment of the Alpha Triad ultimately transcends game. Because biology… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKm2FX9kKZ4 Another example from the recently posted La Vagabonde couple… [bonus points for the Clint Eastwood TGTBATU… Read more »
@Blax
Im projected to make six figures in my late 20’s. Its not too common for millenials, but those of working hard with good degrees are still doing well (that being said Im preparing to jump off the corporate rat race hampster wheel and start my own business)
Im all about living below my means and saving for financial independence and early retirement. Id highly recommend checking out mrmoneymustache.com for some awesome financial advice.
That guy needs his own apartment for sure though. Cant really live life to the fullest under your parent’s watchful eye!
“That guy needs his own apartment for sure though. Cant really live life to the fullest under your parent’s watchful eye!”
Reminds of the Failure to Launch movie [2008]… the scene where he brings JSP home to meet his parents so she will break up with him… and not to be foiled she breaks out the sex card… LOL
Such a funny movie lol. I lived at home for a couple months after graduation to stack up some cash. Didnt last long though after being free to do whatever I wanted. Ive enjoyed the millenial life so far of being free to do what on want on my own terms (minus currently being a wage slave). Having the energizing “life force” feeling of outcome independence and red pill understanding has made my life a damn cake walk thus far. I do plan to get married next year with an amazing woman, on my terms and she is incredibly excited… Read more »
Thanks Big-Al, that’s good to read
“I think living a passionate and exciting life can trupy happen while married . . . ”
Get your divorce lawyer now and bear in mind that the terms of the contract you propose agreeing to are determined by a third party that can change the terms, as often as they want, post hoc.
“Worst case scenario it all burns to the ground . . .”
No. That is the fair to middlin’ scenario.
“Such a funny movie lol”
plus it has one of the best synopses on imdb
“… meets Paula(Sarah Jessica Parker) who has an amazing personality to overcome her equine features and blatant violations [of] push-up bra safety”
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0427229/synopsis?ref_=m_tt_stry_pl
@kfg
Thanks for the tip. Ive spent an eye-straining amount of time reading MRP on reddit. Due diligence is key. She comes from a great background with a very good strong father. I realize Im rolling the dice, but anything worth building in life is a calculated risk in my opinion.
@Big-Al
Pre-nup?
@Big-Al: ” Due diligence is key.” The first question to ask your divorce lawyer (only a divorce lawyer has the experience of arguing pre-nuptial agreements in court, and thus what the law actually is, at least at the time, again bearing in mind that it can be completely nullified at any time, perhaps by your own action of moving to another jurisdiction): Why? That is to say, what’s in it for you? What do you gain, if anything, by getting married? ” . . . anything worth building in life is a calculated risk in my opinion.” The more you… Read more »
“Why?
That is to say, what’s in it for you? What do you gain, if anything, by getting married?”
+1
I like this piece, it’s very well reasoned and provides a good rebuttal to the feminist author’s solipsistic view of men and experiences. At the risk of sounding a bit alarmist, men’s view of eschewing the pitfalls of materialism, family, and suburban life has been getting a lot of attention from government think tanks and policy makers. It not only has micro effects – such as women being unable to garner long term provisioning and security before they age out and reach menopause – it also has severe macro effects in regards to society and consumerism. Men generally buy houses,… Read more »
@kfg
Why? To have children and raise them in a safe and supportive environment like I was raised. I dont want to derail the thread with marriage debate talk here haha! I realize there is not really much else to gain
Ok I’ll be the asshole: “I do plan to get married next year with an amazing woman, on my terms and she is incredibly excited to become part of my life. I think living a passionate and exciting life can trupy happen while married if you find the girl who approaches unicorn status (awalt of course, YMMV)” Well shit, must be one of those UMC unicorn NAWALT angels I heard about in another thread. Good thing this guy knows HIS is one of the special Good Girls who doesn’t make an olympic sport of fucking so he can legally tie… Read more »
holy shit reddit, didn’t know you were going to do THAT in the middle of my post lol Now I know how girls feel when they get unsolicited dick pics.
This is bad, very bad, and the government doesn’t know what to do about it.
We need to start making more stuff men enjoy (guns, motorcycles, bows, boats, planes, etc.) and less stuff women enjoy (curtains, bedspreads, furniture, dresses, baby clothes, etc.).
More jobs for men and less for women. More stuff for men and less for women.
@YaReally
(o)(o)
( _ )
/ / \ \
Twat did you say?
@Ya – Before I got married, I went around and asked older men that I knew, each married 10 years or more and putatively “happily married” ,an even better question. If they had it do all over again, would they? 10 out of 10 said “No”. Even my uncle Joe, married to Grace, an amazing woman. He was the “rock” of my extended family and married for 30 years when I’d asked him this. I was rocked by this. But I got married anyway. Until the Red Pill, I never understood how I could be so dual-minded about this. But… Read more »
@yareally
I know and understand the situation, perhaps my post was too concise to be crystal clear. Im on board with all that stuff (mrp, dread, hypergamy, etc) and meant she is actually a good human being, obviously unicorns dont exist!
Moving on, I think the marriage debate has been discussed at length in almost every comments section here! Only meant to offer my current view and perspective from someone who is a millenial and is living in the bros before homes lifestyle and age group that is being discussed.
@Big-Al: “To have children . . . ” Those are created by fucking, not marriage. You don’t have them, the state does, and she has default custody until the state says otherwise. The state will remove your custody at her request. Marriage does not mitigate that. ” . . . raise them in a safe and supportive environment . . . ” And that is something you give, to the children. It doesn’t come with marriage, it comes by your labor. It is not a gain, it is an obligation. “I realize there is not really much else to gain”… Read more »
@scribblerg No intent to brag, should not have come off that way. I am in no way larping as some faux red piller, I spent several years on this site but do not comment on every thread. Isnt the abundance mentality the essence of dread game in an LTR? I have no illusions of her being the “irreplaceable” one by any means. And I do understand your viewpoint and those of the men you questioned. That being said, I appreciate any advice given here for consideration. My personal viewpoint is that spinning plates has been incredibly fun, but not very… Read more »
@Big-Al
Serious question, not a trap: Why marry her now VS, say, after your first kid together is 5 years old. Like, if we told you don’t legally marry her until you live together and have a kid together and he’s 5 years old (so you’re in your 30s etc), what would your honest top-of-your-head reason NOT to do that be?
@ASDGAMER
“We need to start making more stuff men enjoy (guns, motorcycles, bows, boats, planes, etc.) and less stuff women enjoy (curtains, bedspreads, furniture, dresses, baby clothes, etc.).
More jobs for men and less for women. More stuff for men and less for women.”
I don’t see how when most men dedicate their lives to women’s happiness
I must say I enjoy bedspreads and dresses a lot more than I do guns, motorcycles, bows, boats, planes, etc
@kfg
I do believe that obligation is a two sided coin in that it is also a gain. A gain for children that it impacts, and my future progeny is a personal gain by extension. You reap what you sow in that situation.
I understand my labor and direction is what builds that environment.
Honest question here, do you have a drive deep down to have children someday? Balancing that drive and a bioligcal desire to remain single will always be at odds for myself and mankind in general.
@yareally “young girls want to settle down less” Just wanted to emphasize this part. It’s funny, from trial and error I had devised this flawless speech for when girls ask we “so, where are we going with this?”, that I don’t believe in monogamy blablabla. It worked really well, and I was quite proud of it. But as time went by, I’ve noticed that I had to give THE SPEECH less and less. And nowadays, if the topic ever comes up with younger girls (18-23 I’d say), they are GLAD I don’t wanna be their boyfriend hahaha. Most even give… Read more »
@Kfg- spot on response to “big-al”. The state and family court system controlled by the FI with women as their proxy do indeed control the family.
@Big-Al “Isnt the abundance mentality the essence of dread game in an LTR?” Abundance mentality comes from having abundance and you are about to voluntarily enter a legal agreement where not only do you remove your abundance and ability to regain/increase your abundance, but you’re giving her and the family court and divorce court system the ability to SEVERELY punish you if you do, at some point, decide to try to get your abundance mentality when you lose it. Do you have a career or social life arrangements that involve being around hot girls regularly (to keep your abundance mentality… Read more »
@Klem
With the young generation girls now in their 20’s I find that they are willing to accept long term commitment without any future marriage on the picture. This is most of them have seen that marriage does not necessitate happy families and they have witnessed it first hand. As you grow older I have also found that exclusivity from your part though initially asked for, can also be rejected and the girls will keep coming back.
It really is up to the man to make his intentions absolutely clear at the beginning.
@YaReally
No legal expert here but my reasoning would be that you are already essentially conjoined at that point anyways in the eyes of the law. Would that not require you give up your parental rights to be 100 percent obligation free to the child until he reaches 5 years of age and you got officially married?
“To them buying a house to settle down is so “final”, like that’s IT. You’re locked down to wherever you chose” lol. final? it never fucking ends. I’ll paraphase either Jody or Danny speaking through kenny powers: “every pair of tits comes with a gaping hole of need” but the first “final” one. “upgrade” it. my favorite are the twats who need chef kitchens but can barely boil water. they think their fucking “taste” is so unique and awesome because going to the granite dealer and choosing is so fucking difficult. put it on the market. pay 6% to some… Read more »
If there is a better way to have and raise children than marriage as we know it today, I am all ears. I dont see how children out of wedlock works better, Id be interested in examples and feedback.
For me it seems like there is no perfect option for those who want to become fathers someday. A court system that doesn’t support men is obviously bullshit, but prenups get shredded and thrown out the window from what I hear in the manosphere.
@Niko Ok, but a question from you : why would a guy actually WANT any commitment? Like, if you take the time and effort to learn game, and get good at it, you got SO MANY OPTIONS. It still blows my mind, I feel like a kid in a candy store, there not enough evenings in the week lol. Maybe it’s the way I’m wired, but I don’t lack anything at the moment. I’ve tried to enter e few relationships with the best chicks in my rotation, but it sucks so much compared to what we had before. I’ve realized… Read more »
“Ok I’ll be the asshole” Somebody had to do it. @Big Al If I was going to have kids, FIRST OF ALL… I wouldn’t get married. Second of all I would contact a lawyer and figure out if there were some way that I could have a custody agreement in place before she’s even pregnant. Preferably 100% so that she couldn’t just run off with the kids. You could always amend it later and give her 50% or whatever if you separate. The reality is that even then it isn’t safe. She could just claim abuse and they would be… Read more »
“everything you like about a chick you can get without monogamy” except exclusive access to her vag. some guys don’t like to share. for some it’s a deal breaker. I personally think it’s disgusting, but I have a low threshold when it comes to bodily fluids I lift at a university. over the summer they have lots of events at the sports complex. last week they had a wrestling tournament. the smell of all the sweaty dudes in the fieldhouse was sickening. a few days later there was a girls volleyball camp. the place smelled like flowers. could have stayed… Read more »
@Klem “It’s funny, from trial and error I had devised this flawless speech for when girls ask we “so, where are we going with this?”, that I don’t believe in monogamy blablabla. It worked really well, and I was quite proud of it. But as time went by, I’ve noticed that I had to give THE SPEECH less and less. And nowadays, if the topic ever comes up with younger girls (18-23 I’d say), they are GLAD I don’t wanna be their boyfriend hahaha. Most even give me some kind of version of my speech, like they don”t wanna be… Read more »
@Big-Al: I’d have you ask yourself: are you currently using condoms? If so, why are you protecting yourself? Take that same mindset and apply it to the rest of your life: have a great time but use protection – what do you need to have in place to avoid nasties or a quickening of your timetable?
Abundance mentality is excellent and judiciously exercised dread is fine: you do that now. Neither obviate the utility of a condom.
I have enjoyed building and fixing things since I was a kid. Men are natural tool users, so this is probably part of it. I think there is also a satisfaction that comes from taking an idea in my head and through planning, effort and skill gathering everything I need and fashioning it into something I want. Would this trait, encouraged by the FI social programming also benefit the sexual strategy of women? Oh yes, definitely. Prior to unplugging at 32 there was always an aspect of, “If I do this well, hopefully women will like me more,” to my… Read more »
Big Al “everything has some risk I guess.” exactly… enter into whatever situation you want with eyes open, be fearless and accept the consequences… Any contract can be broken. One thing I hate are guys blathering on about “divorce rape”… comes from such a needy non abundance place. [personally I would give my wife everything but a handful of walking around cash and some personal effects… no big deal. And if my kids were young (not relevant now), if the custody issue could not be worked out, simply take them and disappear] Also if you are in a LTR, in… Read more »
@Andy That has been the question for me to struggle with as a man. Theres really no airtight risk-free way to do anything, from spinning plates to becoming a father. Obviously marriage is fraught with risks that surpass any potential negatives of spinning plates. I opened up and posted my plans and intentions based on what is laid out in front of me in life. I visit this site because I value and appreciate the experiences and opinions of the community here. I look for better ways to live and plan my life and this site has been invaluable in… Read more »
@fleezer Fair enough, I really don’t mind actually, as long as she takes a shower after her other FB hehehe But to be fair, it seems like the LESS you care about what she does when you are not around, the MORE she gets obsessed about you, and don’t give a shit about other guys. It’s hilarious how girls’ brains work to me. Like, I’m a pretty average dude, and to girls I don’t hide it. But what I have is abundance : I legitimately wouldn’t care if any of my girls disappeared tomorrow. Really, I would just shrug my… Read more »
@YaReally @scribblerg @Andy and everyone else against marriage being required for a family:
Do you think it is true or false that the best possible arrangement between a man and a woman to raise psychologically healthy children is life-lasting marriage?
@ Big-Al ” Im all about living below my means and saving for financial independence and early retirement. Id highly recommend checking out mrmoneymustache.com for some awesome financial advice.” Personally, I think living below one’s means is the way to go, unless you do start your own business in some form. Working for somebody else comes with built in peril that I think a lot of guys don’t see. ” Moving on, I think the marriage debate has been discussed at length in almost every comments section here! Only meant to offer my current view and perspective from someone who… Read more »
@YaReally
And just so you know, thanks for that post and all those links, even if you might think it is absolutely a fool’s play to get marred, those are invaluable pieces of advice.
“My problem as a man is looking at all the mgtow doom and gloom without seeing good alternatives to successful and effective fatherhood. Im not seeing a better way, and clearly marriage is a risky proposition.” @Big Al I’d talk to a lawyer. I’m only saying this because I wish someone had told me. I don’t know your relationship history or anything, but I’d hope that you’ve had at least a couple mono-LTR’s get past the NRE stage before you get married. Shit gets a little dull. Getting married makes it a little MORE dull… Then you have kids… PSShhh…… Read more »
ace
“Open Hypergamy means the end of committed relationships as we know it down the road-including marriage.”
“Go even further. The social acceptance of premarital (and casual) sex was the beginning of the end for – traditional – marriage.”
I’ll add, why should men even bother with marriage since feminist have turned the intuition into a weapon against husbands
http://antifeministsite.blogspot.com/2016/06/why-men-are-avoiding-marriage-today.html
You can have Bros and a Home – just without the wife.
@Big-Al “My problem as a man is looking at all the mgtow doom and gloom without seeing good alternatives to successful and effective fatherhood. Im not seeing a better way, and clearly marriage is a risky proposition.” Have kids and stay with her without the legal marriage contract. Serious question: what reason do you have to NOT do that? The reason I’m asking this is because your answer is going to be either “she won’t stay with me and have kids with me if I don’t give her marriage” (which is fear/scarcity based and the OPPOSITE of abundance mentality), or… Read more »
“I do believe that obligation is a two sided coin in that it is also a gain.” That is so in a fair contract. In a scam it is not. You do not go to a car dealer thinking, “I want to give them all my money.” You go thinking, “I want a car.” You know you will be obligated to recompense them for the car, but you expect the car, or you wouldn’t be there in the first place. You’d just stay home with your money. The equation is commutative. Hence my initial question. Just what is it that… Read more »
Big-Al, “If there is a better way to have and raise children than marriage as we know it today, I am all ears.” “As we know it today”, there’s nothing to prefer. I think you are saying “what we have today” but your actual thoughts and images are “what we had in the 40’s and 50’s”. fleezer, OMG. What about ‘legal monogamy’ implies ‘exclusive access to her vag’ in real life? Read a few FR’s here, dude… IWantAProle, No question, the best possible arrangement between a man and a woman to raise psychologically healthy children is life-lasting marriage. Let me… Read more »
I appreciate the replies from everyone. It all has to come from and grow within your frame the way I see it to make it functional. The only thing that bugs me is that there truly is no perfect “have your cake and eat it too” solution to balance the left hand and right hand dichotomy of fatherhood v. sowing wild oats everyhwere. I guess that answer/solution has to be weighed from within. @YaReally “Raising a kid in a household yo both live in, with love and care and provision, and staying together the rest of your lives WITHOUT a… Read more »
@ Big Al It is true that you do not have to get married to have kids. that is an option. But it is up to you to decide in the end. I have to say, in the comments section here, it will be difficult to explain why you want to get married without getting lambasted in some form, lol, but the lambasting is just guys trying to look out for your interests. I’ve spun plates for a long time. It was great, until it wasn’t anymore. Guys have differing opinions. Some are good with spinning plates until they are… Read more »
@Big Al A couple guys asked you to ask yourself the question “why do I need to get married to…” I say ask your girl, “Why do we need to get married? We’re so much in love and we’d do anything for each other! Our love is trancendant and we don’t need a church or the state in between the two of us! We will raise a brood of kids together forever. I Love you so much and I know you love me.” What will she say? At the risk of “blathering about divorce rape” and offending Sentient, it is… Read more »
@Blax
“I’ve spun plates for a long time. It was great, until it wasn’t anymore”
That is this part of your comment that I’m specifically interested in.
What exactly changed? Something mental for you?
(also part of the reason Big-Al instinctively wanted to just pop in and out and not drag the conversation back into the marriage debate is BECAUSE he hasn’t actually thought this through objectively/rationally (VS emotionally) or looked into the laws etc, and his brain was hoping no one would ask questions so it wouldn’t have to confront this stuff…which is specifically WHY I initially replied and am laying down questions lol sorry dude, it’s time you and us had a little talk about your plans…maybe it’s off-topic but like, is saving a dude’s ass ever off-topic?) “You just described common… Read more »
“You just described common law marriage (unless I misunderstand you) . . .” No. You have just misunderstood common law marriage ” . . . unless there’s some effective loophole . . .” Yeah, it doesn’t exist in many legal jurisdictions, like Poughkeepsie, where it is explicitly not legal. And where it is legal there are often some very strict terms for it to be recognized, as traditionally it has been considered something for the law to avoid recognizing whenever it could ( the state child custody scam only arose within my lifetime, so the state had no financial interest… Read more »
@Blaximus “it will be difficult to explain why you want to get married without getting lambasted in some form, lol” The problem is he’s not explaining why he wants to get married. He’s explaining that he can’t see a reason not to, and he’s explaining that he doesn’t have a view of raising healthy kids that doesn’t involve the legal contract. Those are NOT the same things as explaining why he wants to get married. He doesn’t KNOW why he wants to get married…he thinks he wants to get married to have kids, but when we tell him he doesn’t… Read more »
“The problem is he’s not explaining why he wants to get married.”
Exactly. As I rather suspected he couldn’t, on objective grounds.
@Sentient & Blaximus:
As a prophylactic notation, nothing I have been talking about has anything to do with advising against settling down in a very, very fine house, with two cats in the yard and a flock of rug rats.
@kfg “Exactly. As I rather suspected he couldn’t, on objective grounds.” This. This is actually a great case-study in guys who are Red Pill aware but still FI-conditioned and aren’t even aware of it. This is a guy who’s running on his social programming and is not taking necessary precautions or looking up necessary information to protect himself. Full NRE/unicorn/NAWALT in effect regardless of what he’s saying (what he’s saying and what he’s doing are two opposite things). “@Sentient & Blaximus: As a prophylactic notation, nothing I have been talking about has anything to do with advising against settling down… Read more »
@YaReally: This is actually a great case-study in guys who are Red Pill aware but still FI-conditioned and aren’t even aware of it.
Yup, it highlights reflexive choice rather than conscious choice.
@Big-Al: The only thing that bugs me is that there truly is no perfect “have your cake and eat it too” solution to balance the left hand and right hand dichotomy of fatherhood v. sowing wild oats everywhere. I guess that answer/solution has to be weighed from within.
Indeed. Each walks his own tightrope and chooses whether or not there is a net beforehand.
@ Klem ‘ That is this part of your comment that I’m specifically interested in. What exactly changed? Something mental for you?’ Lol. I have been asked this question here multiple times and I have a hard time describing ‘ what changed ‘ to anyone’s satisfaction. I always assumed guys would want something different in life after a while. Banging multiple chicks was just not satisfying after a while. It was FUN, but not satisfying. They all had expiration dates, after which they weren’t as sexually appealing. I still busted nuts all over them, but it wasn’t gratifying. But I… Read more »
Sorta to the OP: So I was helping a ~60yo friend with some construction shit the other day and ended up bringing some stuff to his new house. I hadn’t seen it yet. The new property had two buildings on it – a house and a fairly sizeable pole barn. The house was fairly posh, well-appointed, kinda big for a pair of empty-nesters but nothing crazy. He seemed OK with it but has been complaining that it a) ended up costing way more than it was intended too; and that it b) also ended up covered in ornamental shit like… Read more »
Totally agree with Blaximus: Don’t marry expecting full time access to the vagina and it is never about sex. That’s the paradox: you need lots of sex in your second, third and fourth decades and beyond. Marriage or monogamy does not insure this. The only relative insurance is keeping your value up, up, and up to the level where a feminine girl wants to fuck you. If you want sex make sure you do not let your value where it currently is go down. And keep increasing your value, no matter what your relationship status is until you are at… Read more »
YaReally: “This isn’t an “LTRs are bad” debate, so let’s not go down that path. This isn’t even necessarily a monogamy debate. I’m not saying don’t settle down and have kids etc.”
I wish I had said it that way. I agree.
“The houses prioritize size over quality . . .” Although commonly called “McMansions,” I like James Kunstler’s phrase “a cartoon of a house.” His book title The Geography of Nowhere is also a great play off of Gertrude Stein’s famous quote “There is no there there.” I recently found myself telling a woman that my ideal would be a small, one story, house, and a large barn. The “house” could even be built into a corner of the barn. In an urban area an old commercial garage could substitute for the barn, a cabin built at the back wall, a… Read more »
If you take Rollo’s section in the OP called Off the Reservation and then you have Big Al understand this in light of womens materialism and Briffault’s law, it does not preclude a successful LTR and children if the ship is guided properly. I’m saying this because Big Al is going to pursue a relationship and the following is red pill theory (and research for Big Al). If no one caught this before, it is a good read. If you did catch it before it deserves to be placed in comments in relation to Rollo’s the Original Post. All women… Read more »
Back to some of the earlier comments, I remember reading somewhere (one of the metas here or on Dalrock) that many single Italian men live at home with their parents until they marry, and it’s no stigma to the women they date. Of course, this is their way of supporting their parents (even while getting cooked for), and they expect to inherit the house when the parents die. The Italian guys have full-time, good paying jobs – and freedom. There’s a great deal of difference between living at home for convenience / saving money, and because you failed to launch.… Read more »
@yareally Generally you have been doing very well here, and I don’t think it is off topic at all, as bros before homes is not about real estate “… I’m not saying don’t settle down and have kids etc. I’m saying don’t legally tie a noose around your neck to DO it.” The question primarily is not financial, but about fatherhood. That is does the noose make it more likely, the same, or less likely he loses fatherhood, his key objective (having his own kids, raising them for two decades). Old rules was the noose made losing fatherhood less likely,… Read more »
At least pussy sells, feminists. It could be worse. Dick is so cheap it buys!
@Hmm: ” . . . everybody is supposed to have their own everything.” It maximizes consumer spending while minimizing the chance of a new dynasty forming. As George Carlin noted, “It’s a club, and you ain’t in it.” Every dynasty operates as an extended family, keeping the value and profit inside the family, building it up for generations. You, who are not a member of the club, are encouraged and shamed to have your own place, with your own everything. The Bushes, Kennedys, et al have family compounds. This is also part of why the truly wealthy, who are staggeringly… Read more »
I can’t believe we still have men coming here asking if they should get married after claiming that they’ve swallowed TRP. Simple fact: modern marriage is TOXIC to males. Absolutely lethal. It is 100% counter to your sexual strategy and 100% conducive to hers by design. Yes we need a succinct useful answer as to what to do instead of marriage if you want children, but marriage is definitely not the legal structure you’re looking for. It’s just a way to make sure she leaves with the kids, child support, AND half your shit instead of just the kids and… Read more »
@Sentient: ” If you don’t put the noose around your head is it easier to take the kids?” No. The kids are not yours. The Patriarchy died in the 19th century and since WWII an entire new legal structure where the state has ownership of children has been built. That is one of the reasons there is no reason to get married. It doesn’t matter. Married or not, the kids are not yours. Us old farts got married when the new structure hadn’t quite been built up yet, but as I noted above, the state determines the terms of the… Read more »
“It’s just a way to make sure she leaves with the kids, child support, AND half your shit instead of just the kids and child support.”
Not quite. The structure of marriage (rather than Marriage(tm)) is that if she leaves, she can’t take the kids. That’s the noose around her neck.
@kfg
You call it Marriage(tm), I call it modern marriage. It’s a resource extraction and hypergamy optimization scheme. Plain and simple.
Big Al I was married…once. She asked me. She was a little older and wanted kids. She didn’t tell me everything. She was the full package: great cook, loving, feminine, sweet, up for anything—right up until we got married. After that she started pushing to switch that dynamic and seize frame. We didn’t have kids. We split up. She then revealed that in her early 20’s she’d had an affair with a married man in her office and become pregnant. She had an abortion and since then had been full of guilt and shame. She felt that the fact she… Read more »
“You call it Marriage(tm) . . .”
I call it Marriage(tm) because it isn’t marriage at all. It is a civil union.
That’s why gay “marriage” has suddenly become a non-issue. Gay marriage is nothing but a civil union, just like all “marriages.”
The pea is no longer under the shell you saw it placed under.
Old marriages can continue under the social structure that was established long ago, but new ones begin under the current terms and social expectations.
Dalrock points out that the new family model is a child support model. The purpose of a father is to support his (putative) child(ren), period. The entire anti-family law system is built around this concept of “man as sperm donor and ATM”.
He can be ejected at any time for no reason from the household, but he will support the children or go to prison. The responsibilities are vast, the authority is limited.
@kfg
“Your experience of marriage is just as irrelevant to young people today as your experience of rotary dial phones that weight 10 pounds and are tethered to the wall.”
My experience of marriage is irrelevant and I haven’t a clue why you brought it up, since I didn’t mention it.
My experience of fatherhood is relevant. When your wife/spouse/partner/baby mama/whatever sees the strong feelings you have towards your children, you know (or maybe you don’t know) the “I’ll do anything for them”, then she knows she’s got the real noose.
“Yes we need a succinct useful answer as to what to do instead of marriage if you want children…”
Good luck with that…..
And lets just say that that a coin flip is a 50% chance and we already established that the chances of a marriage “succeeding” are 13 %. (ref BlackDragon). I’m not being facetious or advocating for any one thing, just stating those two things for more clarity.
That’s some ambiguity to deal with for Big Al.
Mrs. Doubtfire wasn’t a comedy, it was a tragedy of Hypergamy.
@ SJF When I can actually get an answer as to why guys that I know decide to marry, if they don’t outright struggle to answer without saying ‘ love ‘, I often hear some reference to ‘ pussy ‘. When I ask them how do they know that she will actually fuck them for the next 30+ years, usually I get some form of ‘ she’d better ‘ or something similar. Asking them to tell me 10 things about their prospective wife, I will hear ‘ nice ‘ 99% of the time in their description. Occasionally there will be… Read more »
TLDRed a bunch of this, it is hard to keep up. @Big Al – You misunderstand, so let me be clearer. At your age you have no idea who in the fuck you should be marrying. You don’t have the best field of available mates to choose from at your age either. You are not optimizing and playing to a male-advantaged script. I guarantee you are just really finding out who you are as a man at your age. That’s okay, focus on you – you have plenty of time. You can marry some 24yo hottie when you are 35… Read more »
KFG
@Sentient: ” If you don’t put the noose around your head is it easier to take the kids?”
No. The kids are not yours.
This was for Redlight…
carry on…
On the whole noose question however…
What power does the noose have if you cut the rope?
agency etc…
Anonymus Reader
He can be ejected at any time for no reason from the household, but he will support the children or go to prison. The responsibilities are vast, the authority is limited.
You realize though that this is the same deal for an unmarried guy who has kids… or who even unknowingly agrees to paternity for kids that he knows are not his…
@Redlight: “My experience of marriage is irrelevant and I haven’t a clue why you brought it up, since I didn’t mention it.” I brought it up because I mistook the speaker, as the addressee has informed me. Mea erroris. “When your wife/spouse/partner/baby mama/whatever sees the strong feelings you have towards your children, you know . . .” I know. @Sentient: “What power does the noose have if you cut the rope?” None, but how many can, or will, do that? It means disowning your children at best, and prison as well at worst. Here’s the website of a man that… Read more »
You realize though that this is the same deal for an unmarried guy who has kids… or who even unknowingly agrees to paternity for kids that he knows are not his… I realized this some years ago. Dalrock’s point stands, and it is an important one. “Marriage” in the US is a child-support based system. Some call it “marriage 2.0”, kfg has his own name; the referent remains the same no matter what symbol one uses to point to it. We could argue about when this happened – was it 1969, was it mid 1970’s, was it 1980’s, was it… Read more »
“Some call it “marriage 2.0” . . . ” That began with the British Custody of Infants Act 1839. “We could argue about when this happened . . .” Whenever, in your locale, the Tender Years Doctrine of the Custody of Infants Act was reworded as “in the best interests of the child.” On the one hand that is the legal instrument that de facto transferred ownership of children to the state, and on the other hand palmed the Tender Years Doctrine pea. What does the state consider the best interests of the child? In most cases . . .… Read more »
“Blaximus’s list is excellent. Respect must be number one[*]. And that means the self-improvement aspect of Game up front, because regaining respect after it has been lost is 10 times harder than maintaining it from the start.” @ Blaximus You got me laughing out loud. Fucking hilarious. You say: “As my wife, she is a reflection on me, especially when she’s out in the world.” You do realize that you are the perfect embodiment of a guy that is fantastically good at being a masculine male (and deserve praise for that here). Your list of 10 things are a reflection… Read more »
@kfg “It maximizes consumer spending while minimizing the chance of a new dynasty forming. As George Carlin noted, “It’s a club, and you ain’t in it.” I have found my purpose in life. And it’s thanks to you and everyone else in this little proto-tribe. How do I accomplish this while turning it into work that’s fun to do? I feel like if I really pursued my passions I could make alot of money, but I don’t know how I’d become an oligarch if I’m still working at reversing my downward spiral. Thanks to you all, however, I know of… Read more »
@ SJF ‘ Your list of 10 things are a reflection of your wife coming along with you…’ This. Lol, you summed it up precisely right there. It’s about her desire and willingness to come along. I’ll do the guiding and will do my level best not to fuck up her/or my family’s lives. Will she buy in? Will she submit? Will she respect and trust? When she does all of these things, my burden becomes clear. I don’t stress over a burden I’ve sought under my conditions. ‘ And as Rollo says: No man has ever been able to… Read more »
@Yollo Comanche: “How do I accomplish this while turning it into work that’s fun to do?”
You’ve caught me at back to scratch on trying to figure that one out myself. Things change, you adapt, then they change again. There is no “done.”
Die biting the throat.
“When she does all of these things, my burden becomes clear. I don’t stress over a burden I’ve sought under my conditions.”
You’re cracking me up again Blax!
Your burdens are clear, they are No Big Deal because you got them handled, and demonstrate that (without explaining)….
…..and then she does all those things.
LoL.
@kfg
I’d rather live, but hey, no throat to bite quite like the one I want.
@ YaReally … Oh God, I know I’m blabbering on too much… Lol ‘ The problem is he’s not explaining why he wants to get married. He’s explaining that he can’t see a reason not to, and he’s explaining that he doesn’t have a view of raising healthy kids that doesn’t involve the legal contract.’ Hmmmm, you’re right. I missed this initially. Not seeing a reason NOT to get married is not the same as WANTING to get married. Different and deadly motivations. Raising healthy, well adjusted kids has nothing to do with the state, unless shit’s gone horribly wrong.… Read more »
“Burden man. BURDEN and More Burden. Lots and lots of burden.” that was @andy nailing it Now like the rest of us I’m wondering if there is any conceivable chance at all that fatherhood is feasible, so I keep an eye on the millenial marriages in my circles. One that I had good hope involved a guy who has considerable alpha qualities and his wife who is great with kids and no drama. They were “soulmates”. We had two occasions recently to be with them and their two kids. After the second, I said to my wife “it’s as if… Read more »
[…] recently did a takedown of a New Republic article, see are-you-experienced. The subject article can be found at https://newrepublic.com/article/134651/bros-homes. I will […]
@ redlight ‘ Now like the rest of us I’m wondering if there is any conceivable chance at all that fatherhood is feasible, so I keep an eye on the millenial marriages in my circles. One that I had good hope involved a guy who has considerable alpha qualities and his wife who is great with kids and no drama. They were “soulmates”. We had two occasions recently to be with them and their two kids. After the second, I said to my wife “it’s as if all the fun has been sucked out of him, leaving dead serious.” My… Read more »
Whenever, in your locale, the Tender Years Doctrine of the Custody of Infants Act was reworded as “in the best interests of the child.” Ah. I recall digging down to the “tender years” doctrine a few years back, when reading the late Spearhead in the context of father custody of children as legal default. I recall noting that it slightly preceded the first feminist convention but not by much. As with many things, the rate-of-change per unit of time was initially slow – a man from 1820 would find marriage in 1880 more or less recognizable – and accelerated. What… Read more »
Random Musings: Mike Pence: “You can’t fake good children.” Mike Pence made a great speech and used a lot of Game micro-facial expressions work for him. DJT’s children are are a testament to Rollo’s “As Good as it Gets” essay. Serial Monogamy anyone? Tiffany Trump garnering the headlines? The Ivanka children including Eric were spectacular. You’d think a great Patriarch inspired them. (Please don’t go into a political discussion. Just don’t. This is game Theory. Stick to red pill and game.) What Rodney King tried to say: “Can’t we all just get along.” Was better said by Mike Pence as… Read more »
“I’m willing to move in that direction. As long as I’m not wrong for my demographic, YaRally?”
I’m sorry, but there are no peace treaties on Thrones of Game. See the Redpill wedding episode.
@Blaximus, “Pro Tip – Never do ANYTHING in life for some kind of social standing or reward. Society today is fickle as fuck. Men are getting the shaft by still following those dictates.” That’s the stuff. That ‘pro tip’ might be up towards the very top of red pill tenets. @Forge the sky, Great rundown of suburban houses, especially how everyone seemed to try gardening but it didn’t work out. You see that all the time. I imagine I would take a crack at it myself if I ever had the space, but the image of suburban yards with greenish… Read more »