Are You Experienced?

ontheroad

About three weeks ago I was made aware of an article on the New Republic blog called Bros Before Homes and a few of my followers on Twitter asked me for my take on it then. I did feel it merited more than 140 characters so I figured I’d build a post on it. Honestly, I had more than a couple irons in the fire for blog posts ahead of this, but in hindsight now I’m glad I waited a bit before digging too far in.

I am going to riff on it here, but before I do I’d like to point out that my posting Sugar Babies, before this post was a strategic decision on my part. You’ll understand why a bit later, but keep in mind the general premise of that post – women’s commodification of intimacy dynamic – and the priority of self-importance women place on themselves with regards to what men must pay for and why women believe they’re worth men’s having to pay for it.

I’m asking readers to keep this in mind because Bros Before Homes will contrast starkly next to Sugar Babies.

From the tone of the article you probably won’t need to look up Phoebe Maltz Bovy‘s portfolio to understand her clichéd feminist bias. It’s all of the self-importance and the prerequisite solipsism you’d expect from ‘journalists’ of her stripe, but try to read past the snark she thinks is interesting. Her sarcasm only highlights women’s duplicity with regards to men freeing themselves from the Feminine Imperative and women commodifying their intimate interests in ‘acceptable’ men.

The gist of Bovy’s fabricated angst is how offensively sexist it is for men to prioritize life experience, exploration, self-betterment, hobbies and the virtue signaling she sees inherent in men when they actually go their own way. Men cutting themselves free from the expectations of the Feminine Imperative and a feminine-primary social order always imply the threat of them coming to realize their own value.

It’s also that the very idea of experiences mattering more than things is a way of valorizing the stereotypically masculine. “While men are conditioned to dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas and long nights of hilarity—women are now encouraged to find deep fulfilment in staying home to origami our pants,” she wrote.

Whether women are being encouraged to rid our homes of useless belongings, or urged to shop for new ones, the result is the same: Society continues to associate women with the home and the material, men with the outside and experiences. While the enjoyment of domestic life, of stuff, isn’t inherently negative, it is dismissed precisely because of its associations with the feminine. An orientation towards stuff over experiences, moreover, gets cast either as recklessly materialist or, as Tony perceives it, an impediment to enjoying life. The only constant is that what women prefer, or are imagined to prefer, is thought inferior.

[…]We’re meant to admire the experience-lovers for their indifference to stuff, which implies they’ve got their priorities straight: to live life to the fullest. It’s no coincidence, though, that these experience-lovers are so often male, as it’s a stereotypically male aspiration not to be “tied down”—that is, not to have domestic responsibilities. But these men do have roofs over their heads. The bourgeois life they’re rejecting is simply one they’ve outsourced. After all, Tony hasn’t rejected the material life. He’s just got a woman—his mother—tidying up after him.

Bovy’s presumptions here smack of her reaching for some way to denigrate men’s pragmatically eschewing materialism or being tethered to what would otherwise be considered “grown up” responsibilities and looking for something more personally meaningful for themselves. As with all femosphere journalists you get a bonus 10% on your women’s studies essays if you can find a way to sneak the word’s “sexism” or “misogyny” in a piece.

Bros Before Homes is really nothing novel in the manosphere. MGTOWs have been advocating this reward-for-independence from women for as long as there’s been a movement. What is novel is that this return to a man being his own mental point of origin and prioritizing life experiences as his first priority is a result of an awareness that’s now filtering into the mainstream. It’s very easy to criticize men for being juvenile about foregoing what popular culture would have us believe is preparing ourselves for adulthood, but when this new idealism affects the men women hope will be well-positioned Betas when they’ve reached the end of their Party Years, then there’s cause for concern.

As a side note here, I should also say that it’s interesting to see how fluidly the progress of feminism comes full circle in Bovy’s thought process. She uses the same ambiguous tropes of a regressive society expecting women to resign themselves to domesticity and tidying up after men as if 60+ years of Fempowerment “leveling the playing field” never occurred. This is the same, very tired, cover story that second wave feminism used in the sixties.

The underlying irritation here is that men’s new prioritizing of experiences above materialism is a thorn in the side of women who’ve been given carte blanche to their Hypergamous whims. Bovy cries sexism because she presumes men are unable to engage in all this experience seeking without a support team of mothers and house-bound women, but what really makes her sore is that men doing the seeking reminds women of their natural predilection for materialism and the base of opportunism their concept of love is founded upon.

Bovy’s first mistake is that she’s statistically inaccurate.

The Blue Pill conditioning of the past 60 years has done everything but teach men to “dream big—to see their happiness in terms of adventure and travel, sex and ideas”. That particular conditioning is reserved for women playing along with the Eat, Pray, Love narrative. If anything it’s just the opposite. From education to family to church, men are conditioned for servile Beta-hood and lambasted for not ‘Manning Up’ and being supportive of women’s empowerment at the cost of their own. Conversely, women and womankind have been lifted to unrealistic idealism in pursuing their own interests at the cost of childbearing and monogamous domesticity. Apparently, Bovy’s never read Lean In or even watched a Disney princess movie in the last 50 years.

Off the Reservation

What worries women is that all the Blue Pill conditioning men have endured for the past several decades might be undone if men were to actually make themselves their mental point of origin. What worries the representatives of the Feminine Imperative is that Betas might see the pragmatism in following the example of men who put themselves first. Men who eschew the trappings of building their lives around the materialism women seek when their looks fade and their need for men’s resource security is a better prospect than having to compete for men with their sisters. When marriage is an easily recognizable sucker’s bet to the point that even Betas can see the sense in avoiding it, that’s when the Feminine Imperative must shift to a new tactic.

Open Hypergamy makes for aware Betas. Men aware of the game they are expected to play must either tamp that understanding down into denial or they simply refuse to play. That refusal can come in many examples, but the reasoning is the same. The deductive, pragmatic response is for men to go their own way and put themselves at the beginning of their thought processes and goals.

The success of women’s sexual strategy depends on ignorant Betas being prepared to meet (or wait for them) at the time at which their need for security is the greatest. This expectation of Betas in Waiting is part of a Hypergamous plan; it is the consolidation of an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks prioritization (also known as the Sandberg Plan). Bros Before Homes is an offense to this plan.

This then becomes a paradox for the Feminine Imperative. A man’s life experiences are generally a wellspring of attraction if not arousal for a woman. Experience is the source of a genuine Amused Mastery and a man’s self-serving experience is usually a prime indicator of an Alpha mindset. My Red Pill brother Goldmund is a perfect example of how personal, self-asserted, self-initiated experiences can be parlayed into a very effective Game.

Be that as it is, the proposition of any and every Beta going MGTOW in various ways, hitting the open road and regaling women with the stories of their exploits presents a problem to Hypergamy; Hypergamy wants certainty and a well-traveled Beta is still a Beta. Furthermore, living for the experiential implies less investment in Beta men developing skills, status, affluence and the personal equity that make them good prospects for Beta providership when they reach the critical age at which women need their cooperation in fulfilling their Hypergamy. At least, that’s the implied concern for women. Men with a sense to educate themselves from experience are usually all the better for it – even when that experience is a nightmare.

I should add here that prioritizing experience above other consideration needn’t be limited to Bovy’s silly impressions of Jack Kerouac’s On the Road.  What concerns the feminine is that men would devote the lion’s share of their personal efforts on anything unrelated to meeting women’s future or present security needs. It’s not just men wanting to scale Mount Vesuvius, it’s men having any self-import at the expense of women. When men’s ambitions are centered on satisfying themselves  and not about developing equity that’s useful to women, that’s when those men (and those who would encourage it) are shamed for not being an adult. They are shamed for not manning up or growing up to meet the needs of women and thus not living up to “adult responsibilities”.

Responsible Adults

It’s not an accident that society conflates men’s servitude with qualities of adulthood – it’s the design.

As such, women begin to get nervous that their future provisioning and security are their own responsibility. How those needs are met are a discussion for various other threads I’ve written, but the social expectations of men qualifying for ‘manhood’ by assisting women to fulfill their own Hypergamous imperatives are at the root of the “sexist” accusations on Bovy’s part. To her, it’s sexist not to plan one’s life according to women’s ‘correct’ sexual strategy.

Bovy actually shares a lot with contemporary Christianity. Ensaturated by feminine primacy, the modern church has made efforts to convince men that their servitude to women is both an article of faith and a prerequisite for responsible adulthood. In a reversal of traditional faith, men aren’t men until they’ve established themselves as being capable of providing for both themselves, but for women as well. Any man shirking this is shamed for “prolonging is adolescence”. All life priority and preparation is presumed to revolve around supporting a future wife irrespective of her own decisions and the results that come from them. The contemporary church is a Beta production institution as it is, but it’s interesting to see how both Bovy and modern Christianity align on the position of men’s proper roles.

This is an interesting parallel when you consider the lengths to which women have gone to emancipate themselves from (ostensibly) being dependent upon men’s influence and provisioning. Western culture has evolved around the strong independent woman stereotype, yet it’s sexist for men to emancipate themselves from the worst of women’s sexual strategy. Bovy’s perspective relies heavily on the Old Books rules set in the misguided belief that women are still beholden to roles of domesticity and repression in an era of triumphantly embraced Open Hypergamy.

Materialism

As I mentioned in the opening, it’s important that we contrast this concern for Betas leaving the plantation with the blatant soft prostitution of the Sugar Babies dynamic. In the light of women’s naked opportunism, and with that opportunism’s materialistic purpose, it’s easy to see how patently false Bovy’s premise is here.

In an era where we develop successful apps to aid women in setting their price on a basic date, it’s easy to recognize Bovy’s disingenuousness. MGTOW and its Red Pill aware derivatives are really just practical, logical responses of men protecting themselves from an Open Hypergamy women are all too ready to educate them about. The End of Men is also the eventual end of women’s expectations of long term provisioning. If Bros aren’t interested in homes the old social contract is put in jeopardy and Open Hypergamy only serves to expedite this shift. Women at the Epiphany Phase looking for the “equal partner” that Sheryl Sandberg assures her sisters will be waiting for them find that men have declined to play along.

The old joke is that if women would have sex in a cardboard box men would never buy a house. The joke’s played out now because women are happy to fuck an Alpha in much less, and now they’re proud enough to tell Betas all about it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

839 comments on “Are You Experienced?

  1. The man she’s speaking of in the article is doing two things that drive Western post-Feminist women absolutely crazy: not making women like her the center of his attention and not spending his abundant wealth on her. And aside from still living with his mother, he’s doing the right thing.

  2. Kaminsky

    “Battered and defeated betas simply … go full steam into [insert activity] … but in so doing they tick off several alpha-boxes… just by being [men] who like to dive into a hobby.”

    and in doing so the dynamic, passionate and authentic LIFE becomes the supra game gravitational force that pulls following women into its orbit…

    Game is an essential tool, get as much study and practice as you can, but the embodiment of the Alpha Triad ultimately transcends game. Because biology…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKm2FX9kKZ4

    Another example from the recently posted La Vagabonde couple… [bonus points for the Clint Eastwood TGTBATU opening soundtrack]… Beta merging into Alpha via experience…

    Chart course… plan… provision… execute.

  3. @Blax

    Im projected to make six figures in my late 20’s. Its not too common for millenials, but those of working hard with good degrees are still doing well (that being said Im preparing to jump off the corporate rat race hampster wheel and start my own business)

    Im all about living below my means and saving for financial independence and early retirement. Id highly recommend checking out mrmoneymustache.com for some awesome financial advice.

    That guy needs his own apartment for sure though. Cant really live life to the fullest under your parent’s watchful eye!

  4. “That guy needs his own apartment for sure though. Cant really live life to the fullest under your parent’s watchful eye!”

    Reminds of the Failure to Launch movie [2008]… the scene where he brings JSP home to meet his parents so she will break up with him… and not to be foiled she breaks out the sex card… LOL

  5. Such a funny movie lol.

    I lived at home for a couple months after graduation to stack up some cash. Didnt last long though after being free to do whatever I wanted.

    Ive enjoyed the millenial life so far of being free to do what on want on my own terms (minus currently being a wage slave).

    Having the energizing “life force” feeling of outcome independence and red pill understanding has made my life a damn cake walk thus far.

    I do plan to get married next year with an amazing woman, on my terms and she is incredibly excited to become part of my life. I think living a passionate and exciting life can trupy happen while married if you find the girl who approaches unicorn status (awalt of course, YMMV). Being the fearless leader and captain of my ship sets me up to do all the “bros before homes” stuff I want to do but still allows me to set up a married life and family with progeny.

    My outcome independence that I have honed spinning plates lets me be the king of the castle. Worst case scenario it all burns to the ground, then Im back to doing the same shit and dating several hot chicks.

    The prospect of marriage doesnt phase me thanks to red pill. Im prepared for the worst but expect the best.

    Thanks again for all your hard work Rollo, this site has been life-changing for me, and has helped me immensely to be the best version of myself…dynamic, passionate, and authentic.

  6. “I think living a passionate and exciting life can trupy happen while married . . . ”

    Get your divorce lawyer now and bear in mind that the terms of the contract you propose agreeing to are determined by a third party that can change the terms, as often as they want, post hoc.

    “Worst case scenario it all burns to the ground . . .”

    No. That is the fair to middlin’ scenario.

  7. @kfg

    Thanks for the tip. Ive spent an eye-straining amount of time reading MRP on reddit. Due diligence is key. She comes from a great background with a very good strong father. I realize Im rolling the dice, but anything worth building in life is a calculated risk in my opinion.

  8. @Big-Al: ” Due diligence is key.”

    The first question to ask your divorce lawyer (only a divorce lawyer has the experience of arguing pre-nuptial agreements in court, and thus what the law actually is, at least at the time, again bearing in mind that it can be completely nullified at any time, perhaps by your own action of moving to another jurisdiction):

    Why?

    That is to say, what’s in it for you? What do you gain, if anything, by getting married?

    ” . . . anything worth building in life is a calculated risk in my opinion.”

    The more you know . . .

  9. “Why?
    That is to say, what’s in it for you? What do you gain, if anything, by getting married?”

    +1

  10. I like this piece, it’s very well reasoned and provides a good rebuttal to the feminist author’s solipsistic view of men and experiences.

    At the risk of sounding a bit alarmist, men’s view of eschewing the pitfalls of materialism, family, and suburban life has been getting a lot of attention from government think tanks and policy makers. It not only has micro effects – such as women being unable to garner long term provisioning and security before they age out and reach menopause – it also has severe macro effects in regards to society and consumerism. Men generally buy houses, furniture, and other goods when they settle down and start a family. Men who prefer to live their lives untethered to such things don’t inject capital, property taxes, and kids into local businesses and government/school roll calls. This is bad, very bad, and the government doesn’t know what to do about it.

  11. @kfg

    Why? To have children and raise them in a safe and supportive environment like I was raised. I dont want to derail the thread with marriage debate talk here haha! I realize there is not really much else to gain

  12. Ok I’ll be the asshole:

    “I do plan to get married next year with an amazing woman, on my terms and she is incredibly excited to become part of my life. I think living a passionate and exciting life can trupy happen while married if you find the girl who approaches unicorn status (awalt of course, YMMV)”

    Well shit, must be one of those UMC unicorn NAWALT angels I heard about in another thread. Good thing this guy knows HIS is one of the special Good Girls who doesn’t make an olympic sport of fucking so he can legally tie himself to her despite reading Red Pill shit.

    Fuck it, don’t even get a prenup dude, the older wiser guys told me in the last thread that social conditioning these days is no big deal, and if she has a good strong father then she’s immune to the Eat Pray Love culture around her and won’t be influenced by it, and I’ve heard that when you find a special unicorn you shouldn’t pass her up and should settle down and follow a special separate type of game called relationship game and just focus on sailing boats and chopping trees down and other masculinity-association-approved hobbies and you’ll be fine your woman will just follow you around adoringly…I mean, you wanna be a real multidimensional alpha triad MAN, don’t you? How else are you gonna get e-props from other Manospherians? Isolating yourself from chasing the approval of names on a computer screen is dangerous, don’tcha know!

    @Big-Al
    For real though: Disregard everything I just said above. Either don’t legally tie yourself to her (but you will of course, because she’s a unicorn and you’re so outcome independent that you’ll do something with 100% huge risks to you because if you didn’t she might leave you which is totally outcome independence, and you’ve been socially conditioned to think that you can’t have a loving happy home to raise a kid in if you don’t have a legal noose around your neck) or research the FUCK out of thrown-out pre-nups to see why they get thrown out and find some fucking IRON CLAD pre-nup information and accept that even THEN it may be thrown out entirely in a divorce one day by a judge who doesn’t want to see a girl cry…study the fuck out of Dread Game and understand that you WILL have to use it and you WILL HAVE TO USE IT FOREVER, and that you are not a special snowflake and your girl is not a special unicorn who will stay attracted to you by default. You have to MAINTAIN that attraction, forever, until you die, even if you lose your job or get sick or get depressed etc etc

    “My outcome independence that I have honed spinning plates lets me be the king of the castle.”

    So of course then natural next step, now that you’re king of the castle outcome independent and she’s in full NRE mode attracted to you and doting on you lovingly, is to sign yourself into a legal agreement where she can fuck you over if she’s unhappy in 10+ years and take away your future kids with most of society supporting and encouraging her to do it, which assuming you care about your assets, mental health, and kids, will force you INTO outcome dependence. Are you going to throw monogamy on top of that, just to make sure you don’t have other options and can’t walk out on her so that you have as much outcome dependence as possible?

    If you’re determined to do this (which you are) then make sure you fully (FULLY) understand Dread Game, read the MMSL MAP plan and implement it from day one, read every article you can find on Hypergamy, and make GODDAMNED sure you understand that you don’t have a unicorn NAWALT. She is programmed exactly like every other girl, even if she has some good layers of social conditioning on top of that programming…if you don’t accept that, then will be playing Russian Roulette and we’ll see you back here in 10+ years.

    “Im projected to make six figures in my late 20’s.”

    And remember your alimony and child support if your girl (presumably early/mid-20s girl who was raised in this Eat Pray Love culture) DOESN’T resist social conditioning and you DON’T do the shit I just listed, will be based on this six figure income.

    Also read Blackdragon’s post here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/PUApolyamory/comments/1tylk6/masf_repost_big_post_the_ultimate_post_on_why/

    And my post here:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/2015/8/#comment-rationalmale-114069

    Make DAMN sure you understand what we’re saying in those posts and have plans/habits/etc to counter all the points we bring up.

    And people wonder why I harp on NAWALT when guys push the special unicorn shit instead of letting the fantasy bragging about having NAWALTS and how all my kids and their friends and this special class of people are NAWALTS etc go. How in the world does a guy read TRP/TRM religiously and then go and voluntarily get legally married lol

    On the @op topic so this isn’t a total derail:
    I know very few successful dudes in their late 20s who even WANT to own houses, or if they do own them they’re viewed more as temporary stops while they build their careers, VS a final destination to invest in longterm and mow the lawn for. It’s way more socially acceptable to be single in your 30s now (whether you’re a PUA or not, I’m talking about general guys) and young girls want to settle down less and older girls who want to settle down are shit quality so these guys are more hesitant to settle.

    To them buying a house to settle down is so “final”, like that’s IT. You’re locked down to wherever you chose…which is alright if you’re settling down to start a family, but if you’re single? What if you want to live somewhere better in a few years, what if your career opportunities take you somewhere else, how can you know you’re going to want to be in that same city on that one street for the rest of your life when you’re only late 20s early 30s and still have tons of shit to do and see still? At least living at home you KNOW is temporary and not your final destination yet.

    Like, the concept of a single dude in his late 20s early 30s owning a settle-down long-term for life house all for himself is WEIRD lol Most guys and girls I can think of would be like “…what? WHY??” if the guy is single. If it’s a little tiny house for just him (and I know guys with these, like not big enough to raise a big family in but big enough to throw BBQs for your buddies and park your car in the garage that’s built into the house etc), then it’s usually just a temporary stop in his mind and he’ll only be there for a few years and sell it off…and if it’s a house big enough for a family, but he’s SINGLE, then it comes off as this weird “I’m desperate to have a family, please some girl come fill this void in my life 🙁 :(” thing lol Like a George Sodini thing.

    The guys I know with 6 figure incomes have enough money that they don’t need to get a house to secure having a roof over their head because they have enough money to always be able to afford a roof over their head wherever they decide to go and aren’t worried about society collapsing or anything, and the guys without 6 figure incomes view buying a house as a crazy needless expense if they don’t have a girl they’re settling down to start a family with right away.

    Like Scray what are your buddies like on the buying a life-long house topic? You roll in that well-off millennial crowd that I’m thinking about when I say this stuff.

    Now the guys settling down who accidentally get a girl pregnant, or the beta guys in shitty relationships and scared to leave them, or who are nagged by their girl and their families and social pressure to get a house and start a family, and the religious/FI-conditioned guys who believe in the marriage = true love forever thing want to buy houses.

    And so do the guys happily in love in flawless relationships where they want to have kids with their girl and she wants to be with them forever and ever…they want houses too. But I can count those relationships on one hand and at least half of them are pretty much guaranteed to fall apart down the road but the guy is oblivious to the red flags popping up (’cause he has the NAWALT so why even think she’s like any other girl?). The other half of those handful is doing great though (minus possibly deadbedrooms etc that they may have behind closed doors)…so far at least, we’ll see how it pants out for them in 10 years lol

  13. holy shit reddit, didn’t know you were going to do THAT in the middle of my post lol Now I know how girls feel when they get unsolicited dick pics.

  14. This is bad, very bad, and the government doesn’t know what to do about it.

    We need to start making more stuff men enjoy (guns, motorcycles, bows, boats, planes, etc.) and less stuff women enjoy (curtains, bedspreads, furniture, dresses, baby clothes, etc.).

    More jobs for men and less for women. More stuff for men and less for women.

  15. @Ya – Before I got married, I went around and asked older men that I knew, each married 10 years or more and putatively “happily married” ,an even better question. If they had it do all over again, would they?

    10 out of 10 said “No”. Even my uncle Joe, married to Grace, an amazing woman. He was the “rock” of my extended family and married for 30 years when I’d asked him this. I was rocked by this.

    But I got married anyway. Until the Red Pill, I never understood how I could be so dual-minded about this. But now I understand. Social conditioning tells me to ignore all that. Social conditioning had so baked into me the view of myself as valued and approved of by society for marrying and being a Dad and a husband that even 10 long term married men telling me that they regretted doing so didn’t slow me down.

    Now? I read Big Al and I just grin. He’s a perfect example of so many faux Red Pillers LARPing through the manosphere, thinking that “knowing” the Red Pill is somehow the point.

    @Big Al – Don’t do it. Huge mistake. Your comment sounds absurd. Wait 10 more years, she’s not “the one”. And the fact that you are in such a rush and in such denial tells me that you are still very Blue Pill in terms of your identity. Most amazingly – you brag about your abundance mentality, while going monogamous.

    @All – One of the reasons men should wait and build themselves up until their mid-late 30s before marrying is so that the value differential between you and the woman you choose is large. She will submit more readily to a fully realized man, rather than some kid who’s trying to make a career go (the prospect of making over 100k is not the same as doing it, fyi, and even then, that’s not that much money in today’s world).

    Last: Get this. All women are replaceable. Men are built that way. We can get over losing any woman. There no “one”, and you can always find another who will thrill you just as much. Really. And if you don’t get that, you don’t get the Red Pill…

  16. @yareally

    I know and understand the situation, perhaps my post was too concise to be crystal clear. Im on board with all that stuff (mrp, dread, hypergamy, etc) and meant she is actually a good human being, obviously unicorns dont exist!

    Moving on, I think the marriage debate has been discussed at length in almost every comments section here! Only meant to offer my current view and perspective from someone who is a millenial and is living in the bros before homes lifestyle and age group that is being discussed.

  17. @Big-Al:

    “To have children . . . ”

    Those are created by fucking, not marriage. You don’t have them, the state does, and she has default custody until the state says otherwise. The state will remove your custody at her request. Marriage does not mitigate that.

    ” . . . raise them in a safe and supportive environment . . . ”

    And that is something you give, to the children. It doesn’t come with marriage, it comes by your labor. It is not a gain, it is an obligation.

    “I realize there is not really much else to gain”

    You haven’t elucidated a gain yet.

  18. @scribblerg

    No intent to brag, should not have come off that way. I am in no way larping as some faux red piller, I spent several years on this site but do not comment on every thread.

    Isnt the abundance mentality the essence of dread game in an LTR? I have no illusions of her being the “irreplaceable” one by any means.

    And I do understand your viewpoint and those of the men you questioned. That being said, I appreciate any advice given here for consideration. My personal viewpoint is that spinning plates has been incredibly fun, but not very rewarding or fulfilling…I think someone else expressed this feeling upthread.

  19. @Big-Al
    Serious question, not a trap: Why marry her now VS, say, after your first kid together is 5 years old. Like, if we told you don’t legally marry her until you live together and have a kid together and he’s 5 years old (so you’re in your 30s etc), what would your honest top-of-your-head reason NOT to do that be?

  20. @ASDGAMER

    “We need to start making more stuff men enjoy (guns, motorcycles, bows, boats, planes, etc.) and less stuff women enjoy (curtains, bedspreads, furniture, dresses, baby clothes, etc.).
    More jobs for men and less for women. More stuff for men and less for women.”

    I don’t see how when most men dedicate their lives to women’s happiness

    I must say I enjoy bedspreads and dresses a lot more than I do guns, motorcycles, bows, boats, planes, etc

  21. @kfg

    I do believe that obligation is a two sided coin in that it is also a gain. A gain for children that it impacts, and my future progeny is a personal gain by extension. You reap what you sow in that situation.

    I understand my labor and direction is what builds that environment.

    Honest question here, do you have a drive deep down to have children someday? Balancing that drive and a bioligcal desire to remain single will always be at odds for myself and mankind in general.

  22. @yareally

    “young girls want to settle down less”

    Just wanted to emphasize this part.
    It’s funny, from trial and error I had devised this flawless speech for when girls ask we “so, where are we going with this?”, that I don’t believe in monogamy blablabla.
    It worked really well, and I was quite proud of it.

    But as time went by, I’ve noticed that I had to give THE SPEECH less and less. And nowadays, if the topic ever comes up with younger girls (18-23 I’d say), they are GLAD I don’t wanna be their boyfriend hahaha. Most even give me some kind of version of my speech, like they don”t wanna be tied down to one person, they believe they need to experience the world, they wanna travel a lot etc.
    And they even JOKE that if I’d wanted to be exclusive, it would be kind of a turn-off for them.

    Some people in the thread have mentionned it but right now there is HUGE social influence directed at girls to travel, accumulate experiences, date many guys etc. But what is sad is that there is nothing about the “after”, like when they are too old to sleep in smelly hostels in SE Asia with a fucked up liver from all the booze etc.

  23. @Kfg- spot on response to “big-al”. The state and family court system controlled by the FI with women as their proxy do indeed control the family.

  24. @Big-Al
    “Isnt the abundance mentality the essence of dread game in an LTR?”

    Abundance mentality comes from having abundance and you are about to voluntarily enter a legal agreement where not only do you remove your abundance and ability to regain/increase your abundance, but you’re giving her and the family court and divorce court system the ability to SEVERELY punish you if you do, at some point, decide to try to get your abundance mentality when you lose it.

    Do you have a career or social life arrangements that involve being around hot girls regularly (to keep your abundance mentality up while also stoking her dread)? And are those arrangements that you will be able to keep a part of your life long-term when she has EVERY legal/societal ability to not allow you to have them once you sign that contract?

    And do you understand that your SMV is going to increase dramatically in the next 10 years, while your wife’s SMV decreases dramatically, and that the legal contract you’re going to voluntarily sign will REMOVE all incentive for her to try to keep her SMV HIGH for you.

  25. @Klem

    With the young generation girls now in their 20’s I find that they are willing to accept long term commitment without any future marriage on the picture. This is most of them have seen that marriage does not necessitate happy families and they have witnessed it first hand. As you grow older I have also found that exclusivity from your part though initially asked for, can also be rejected and the girls will keep coming back.

    It really is up to the man to make his intentions absolutely clear at the beginning.

  26. @YaReally

    No legal expert here but my reasoning would be that you are already essentially conjoined at that point anyways in the eyes of the law. Would that not require you give up your parental rights to be 100 percent obligation free to the child until he reaches 5 years of age and you got officially married?

  27. “To them buying a house to settle down is so “final”, like that’s IT. You’re locked down to wherever you chose”

    lol. final? it never fucking ends. I’ll paraphase either Jody or Danny speaking through kenny powers:

    “every pair of tits comes with a gaping hole of need”

    but the first “final” one. “upgrade” it. my favorite are the twats who need chef kitchens but can barely boil water. they think their fucking “taste” is so unique and awesome because going to the granite dealer and choosing is so fucking difficult.

    put it on the market. pay 6% to some slut realtor. buy a bigger one. another 6 %. “upgrade” it. hand over your balls to the bank and the tax man.

    now she wants a vacation cabin on the lake. buy it. two mortgages so you can spend a week or two a year hearing her bitch about how it’s so rough living in the cabin and they need to “upgrade” it.

    lol.

    remember guys, she fucked Ya Really for nothing in the dirty bathroom of some club an hour after meeting him. that is her true nature. any “dream home” shit is pure blue pill and you’re nothing but a cash machine to her.

    the only reason a guy should have a house is because he’s growing ganja, running a brothel/casino or his harem is too big to fit anywhere else.

  28. If there is a better way to have and raise children than marriage as we know it today, I am all ears. I dont see how children out of wedlock works better, Id be interested in examples and feedback.

    For me it seems like there is no perfect option for those who want to become fathers someday. A court system that doesn’t support men is obviously bullshit, but prenups get shredded and thrown out the window from what I hear in the manosphere.

  29. @Niko

    Ok, but a question from you : why would a guy actually WANT any commitment?
    Like, if you take the time and effort to learn game, and get good at it, you got SO MANY OPTIONS.

    It still blows my mind, I feel like a kid in a candy store, there not enough evenings in the week lol.
    Maybe it’s the way I’m wired, but I don’t lack anything at the moment. I’ve tried to enter e few relationships with the best chicks in my rotation, but it sucks so much compared to what we had before.
    I’ve realized there is no upside, everything you like about a chick you can get without monogamy.
    And the downsides are HUGE for me, like all these serious talks, projects “together”, accountability that she demands.

    Idk man, I feel like when you have good game, take care of your employability to never run out of money, and take care of your health (really not complicated), your life is pretty much an amusement park.

    Also, I’m not super young either, I’ll be 30 in a few months lol

  30. “Ok I’ll be the asshole”

    Somebody had to do it.

    @Big Al

    If I was going to have kids, FIRST OF ALL… I wouldn’t get married. Second of all I would contact a lawyer and figure out if there were some way that I could have a custody agreement in place before she’s even pregnant. Preferably 100% so that she couldn’t just run off with the kids. You could always amend it later and give her 50% or whatever if you separate. The reality is that even then it isn’t safe. She could just claim abuse and they would be gone forever, but… everything has some risk I guess.

    Nobody wants to hear this when they’re in LOOOOOOoooooove. But this is the rest of your LIFE.

  31. “everything you like about a chick you can get without monogamy”

    except exclusive access to her vag.

    some guys don’t like to share. for some it’s a deal breaker. I personally think it’s disgusting, but I have a low threshold when it comes to bodily fluids

    I lift at a university. over the summer they have lots of events at the sports complex.

    last week they had a wrestling tournament. the smell of all the sweaty dudes in the fieldhouse was sickening.

    a few days later there was a girls volleyball camp. the place smelled like flowers. could have stayed there all day.

    I like exclusive rights to the flower pot. every guy’s got to hike his own hike though

  32. @Klem
    “It’s funny, from trial and error I had devised this flawless speech for when girls ask we “so, where are we going with this?”, that I don’t believe in monogamy blablabla. It worked really well, and I was quite proud of it.

    But as time went by, I’ve noticed that I had to give THE SPEECH less and less. And nowadays, if the topic ever comes up with younger girls (18-23 I’d say), they are GLAD I don’t wanna be their boyfriend hahaha. Most even give me some kind of version of my speech, like they don”t wanna be tied down to one person, they believe they need to experience the world, they wanna travel a lot etc.

    And they even JOKE that if I’d wanted to be exclusive, it would be kind of a turn-off for them.”

    This is my exact experience, and the experience of a lot of other dudes. I was actually bummed at the shift at first because my speeches for getting around the monogamy/settle down stuff were SO perfected from before social media cell phones Tinder etc. I felt like a thief in the night running off with the crown jewels every time I pulled that speech off successfully lol

    But now they’re saying my speech before I can and all I have to do is nod along and tool other guys for being needy chodes and then it’s casual fuckbuddy time.

    I know more DUDES who want a girlfriend/monogamy/kids/etc than I do GIRLS lol Like, my Blue Pill providery buddies (the Red Pill ones are generally happy playing the field still) WANT to settle down and WANT a girlfriend SO BAD but them wanting that turns the girls off.

    “Some people in the thread have mentionned it but right now there is HUGE social influence directed at girls to travel, accumulate experiences, date many guys etc. But what is sad is that there is nothing about the “after”, like when they are too old to sleep in smelly hostels in SE Asia with a fucked up liver from all the booze etc.”

    This is what I was trying to point out last thread. A lot of these girls feel “held back” by monogamy/settling…until they meet a guy who stokes enough Lover AND Provider traits that they suddenly expect to get monogamy from him lol I stick to being as far in the Lover camp as possible without showing any Provider traits so I can avoid that shit (since if I show some Provider side, they fall in love and want commitment/monogamy and then I get The Ultimatum and drama and they have to go LSTFNE etc)

    But why wouldn’t they think like this when this is what’s being socially conditioned into them:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuAxVfZasUk

    I mean, doesn’t that look like the fucking GREATEST TIME IN THE ENTIRE GODDAMN WORLD?? 22 million+ views. Like a chick in the comments says: “I literally just cried, I wanna go so bad!!!”

    @fleezer
    “but the first “final” one. “upgrade” it. my favorite are the twats who need chef kitchens but can barely boil water. they think their fucking “taste” is so unique and awesome because going to the granite dealer and choosing is so fucking difficult.”

    Right. None of that is appealing lol But like, that’s my point…Why would a guy want to DO that stuff when he has so many other options? At least until he’s in his late 30s and wants to start a family. Except for guys like Big-Al who still have Blue Pill beliefs conditioned into them.

    @Big-Al
    “No legal expert here but my reasoning would be that you are already essentially conjoined at that point anyways in the eyes of the law. Would that not require you give up your parental rights to be 100 percent obligation free to the child until he reaches 5 years of age and you got officially married?”

    What? Dude. I think you need to read up on this stuff.

    “If there is a better way to have and raise children than marriage as we know it today, I am all ears.”

    What is the difference between raising a child in a household you both live in, raising your child with love and care and provision, and you’re both together the rest of your lives…and the exact same thing except you have a legal paper that can obliterate you?

    “I dont see how children out of wedlock works better, Id be interested in examples and feedback.”

    Lamb to the fucking slaughter…

    “For me it seems like there is no perfect option for those who want to become fathers someday.”

    Raising a kid in a household yo both live in, with love and care and provision, and staying together the rest of your lives WITHOUT a legal noose around your neck is a better option than the same WITH the noose.

    Serious question: If you’ve been reading Red Pill shit then you know you can’t negotiate desire, even with a legal contract. So the contract isn’t to keep HER around. Are YOU worried that you’re going to walk out on her? No? Then why do you need a legal contract VS just staying with her voluntarily?

    @Andy
    “Somebody had to do it.”

    lol I’m sitting there like is no one going to bitch-slap some sense into this guy?? This is some mid-20s dude who thinks he’s even CAPABLE of screening for a unicorn at his age, who thinks he’s found a unicorn and is voluntarily entering fucking legal MARRIAGE, before he’s anywhere NEAR his peak SMV, because she’s special and “it’s the right thing to do”. No one’s gonna bring up the elephant in the room?

    “Nobody wants to hear this when they’re in LOOOOOOoooooove. But this is the rest of your LIFE.”

    Dude’s posts sound head in the clouds and like he hasn’t ACTUALLY looked into any of this stuff (why would he that stuff only happens to guys who don’t have a UMC unicorn with a good strong father) and won’t ACTUALLY take any of the precautions he should be taking.

    @fleezer
    ““everything you like about a chick you can get without monogamy”

    except exclusive access to her vag.”

    That’s not true at all lol pLTR arrangement provides that, and just generally triggering her Hypergamy properly makes other guys not worth fucking (you may be able to fuck your choice of 300lbs landwhales when you have an HB10 who’s DTF whenever you want, but you probably won’t fuck the landwhales because your main option is so much better than them).

    Though when they get closer to 30 then they ramp up the exclusivity demands ’cause they want to know for sure they’re going to have you long-term etc But then they’re 30 so ew lol

  33. @Big-Al: I’d have you ask yourself: are you currently using condoms? If so, why are you protecting yourself? Take that same mindset and apply it to the rest of your life: have a great time but use protection – what do you need to have in place to avoid nasties or a quickening of your timetable?

    Abundance mentality is excellent and judiciously exercised dread is fine: you do that now. Neither obviate the utility of a condom.

  34. I have enjoyed building and fixing things since I was a kid. Men are natural tool users, so this is probably part of it. I think there is also a satisfaction that comes from taking an idea in my head and through planning, effort and skill gathering everything I need and fashioning it into something I want. Would this trait, encouraged by the FI social programming also benefit the sexual strategy of women? Oh yes, definitely. Prior to unplugging at 32 there was always an aspect of, “If I do this well, hopefully women will like me more,” to my behavior. The FI may have encouraged my desire to make things, only to try and co-opt it for itself later, but now that it has failed I realize I still like creating.

    Since gaining full RP awareness I have not achieved alpha-ness in all areas of my life, but have moved in that direction in many of them and have no plans to stop pressing on in that direction. At this point if some girl wants to try and use me to consolidate on her betabux part of her sexual strategy, that is fine. If I get some hot sex up front, whether it’s rooted in genuine alpha chasing desire or trying to get me to invest more into her through marriage, I don’t really care. At this point, while I am not drowning in female interest I know I can generate enough that a scarcity mentality is not a problem. While I would be a good catch, I have little desire to be caught. I will build my life, I will build the things I want, for me. As long as she doesn’t interfere with that too much she can stay. If not, next. Another girl can try, and after that another. Like I said, I haven’t achieved the degree of alphaness I would like but at the same time I feel comfortable converting my remaining beta to bait.

  35. Big Al

    “everything has some risk I guess.”

    exactly… enter into whatever situation you want with eyes open, be fearless and accept the consequences… Any contract can be broken.

    One thing I hate are guys blathering on about “divorce rape”… comes from such a needy non abundance place. [personally I would give my wife everything but a handful of walking around cash and some personal effects… no big deal. And if my kids were young (not relevant now), if the custody issue could not be worked out, simply take them and disappear]

    Also if you are in a LTR, in many states your girl can get palimony… If you have a child with a woman, you will likely be paying child support, regardless of status…

    On marriage – kfg has it right – why? Only you need to answer that, for yourself, but do answer it.

    The only reason I would say absolutely not to do it is if your motive is ultimately fear based in some regard. It may take a lot of contemplation, from different angles to suss that one out. spend time on it.

    Else… it’s not a roll of the dice… by any stretch, due your diligence and there are hosts of mitigants to put into place… but ultimately as always it will come down to your execution…

    Because at the end of the day, authenticity matters.

  36. @Andy

    That has been the question for me to struggle with as a man. Theres really no airtight risk-free way to do anything, from spinning plates to becoming a father. Obviously marriage is fraught with risks that surpass any potential negatives of spinning plates.

    I opened up and posted my plans and intentions based on what is laid out in front of me in life. I visit this site because I value and appreciate the experiences and opinions of the community here. I look for better ways to live and plan my life and this site has been invaluable in that research.

    My problem as a man is looking at all the mgtow doom and gloom without seeing good alternatives to successful and effective fatherhood. Im not seeing a better way, and clearly marriage is a risky proposition.

  37. @fleezer

    Fair enough, I really don’t mind actually, as long as she takes a shower after her other FB hehehe

    But to be fair, it seems like the LESS you care about what she does when you are not around, the MORE she gets obsessed about you, and don’t give a shit about other guys.

    It’s hilarious how girls’ brains work to me.
    Like, I’m a pretty average dude, and to girls I don’t hide it. But what I have is abundance : I legitimately wouldn’t care if any of my girls disappeared tomorrow. Really, I would just shrug my shoulders and be happy to have so much free time all of a sudden.
    So often, a very high value guy (way higher SMV than me objectively) will hit on one of them, and she even might end up fucking her.
    But the funny part is that ALL the time, this guy ends up being maybe 1% more invested in her than I am, and it seems that from this information, her brain rationalizes that I’m better than the other guy.
    Which isn’t true at all haahhaha. If she had not dumped this other dude, perhaps she would be on his boat in the Med, drinking champagne every night etc. instead of being on my broken Ikea futon.
    I don’t know, I find it super funny.

  38. @YaReally @scribblerg @Andy and everyone else against marriage being required for a family:

    Do you think it is true or false that the best possible arrangement between a man and a woman to raise psychologically healthy children is life-lasting marriage?

  39. @ Big-Al

    ” Im all about living below my means and saving for financial independence and early retirement. Id highly recommend checking out mrmoneymustache.com for some awesome financial advice.”

    Personally, I think living below one’s means is the way to go, unless you do start your own business in some form. Working for somebody else comes with built in peril that I think a lot of guys don’t see.

    ” Moving on, I think the marriage debate has been discussed at length in almost every comments section here! Only meant to offer my current view and perspective from someone who is a millenial and is living in the bros before homes lifestyle and age group that is being discussed.”

    Lol. Talking marriage or looks here can be deadly. It’s lively debate….until it’s not. But discussion is always a plus.

    If you’ve been following the comments, you already know my take on marriage.

    1) Awalt to some degree. Not all women are crazy, life destroying lunatics by a long shot.

    2) Marriage in today’s climate is more risky than in the past. This is not to say that it is a death sentence.

    Choose wisely without pussy blinders on, vet carefully over a sustained length of time.

    Remember, imo the guys who marry expecting full time access to vagina are the first to lose said access. It’s not about The Sex really. That’s no reason to marry. Idgaf what society says.

    Sometime’s asking a guy whose marriage blew up, or whose bedroom has died can indeed be instructive, but it’s worth understanding that their opinion will reflect how they dealt with what happened to them.

    I was divorced. I was not divorced raped. I’ve never experienced a dead bedroom. The breakout opinion on marriage when I asked my elders was 60-40 in favor with caveats.

    In today’s lingo those caveats are basically Frame and RP understanding, even though I/we had no manosphere back then. The truth is the truth by any other name.

    Pro Tip – Never do ANYTHING in life for some kind of social standing or reward. Society today is fickle as fuck. Men are getting the shaft by still following those dictates. Just keep this in your mind to counter the pressure of that kind of mind control. Lol.

    But you already understand this.

    Good luck in whatever you decide to pursue. Gather all the knowledge available to you, and put it into practice.

  40. @YaReally

    And just so you know, thanks for that post and all those links, even if you might think it is absolutely a fool’s play to get marred, those are invaluable pieces of advice.

  41. “My problem as a man is looking at all the mgtow doom and gloom without seeing good alternatives to successful and effective fatherhood. Im not seeing a better way, and clearly marriage is a risky proposition.”

    @Big Al

    I’d talk to a lawyer. I’m only saying this because I wish someone had told me. I don’t know your relationship history or anything, but I’d hope that you’ve had at least a couple mono-LTR’s get past the NRE stage before you get married. Shit gets a little dull. Getting married makes it a little MORE dull… Then you have kids… PSShhh… Say goodbye to your carefree fun sexy times for a few YEARS… I repeat. YEARS until your sex life gets back to normal. At that point… Burden man. BURDEN and More Burden. Lots and lots of burden.

    It’s not very glamorous.

  42. ace
    “Open Hypergamy means the end of committed relationships as we know it down the road-including marriage.”
    “Go even further. The social acceptance of premarital (and casual) sex was the beginning of the end for – traditional – marriage.”

    I’ll add, why should men even bother with marriage since feminist have turned the intuition into a weapon against husbands
    http://antifeministsite.blogspot.com/2016/06/why-men-are-avoiding-marriage-today.html

    You can have Bros and a Home – just without the wife.

  43. @Big-Al
    “My problem as a man is looking at all the mgtow doom and gloom without seeing good alternatives to successful and effective fatherhood. Im not seeing a better way, and clearly marriage is a risky proposition.”

    Have kids and stay with her without the legal marriage contract. Serious question: what reason do you have to NOT do that? The reason I’m asking this is because your answer is going to be either “she won’t stay with me and have kids with me if I don’t give her marriage” (which is fear/scarcity based and the OPPOSITE of abundance mentality), or “well it’s pretty much the same either way” (which it’s not, and you need to do more research on that)

    @Klem
    “But the funny part is that ALL the time, this guy ends up being maybe 1% more invested in her than I am, and it seems that from this information, her brain rationalizes that I’m better than the other guy. Which isn’t true at all haahhaha. If she had not dumped this other dude, perhaps she would be on his boat in the Med, drinking champagne every night etc. instead of being on my broken Ikea futon. I don’t know, I find it super funny.”

    lol this

    @IWantAProle
    “Do you think it is true or false that the best possible arrangement between a man and a woman to raise psychologically healthy children is life-lasting marriage?”

    Counter-question for you and Big-Al: What reason can you give that a relationship without a marriage contract can’t still be life-lasting, loving, living together, staying together, showing affection for eachother, raising a good healthy child with a loving example in front of them, etc.

    Like, what is it about the legal contract that the kid will never see, that makes you think you need it to stay together and raise a healthy child?

    Again questions for you and Big-Al:

    1) Do you think that if you DON’T get that legal contract, YOU will leave HER? If you plan to leave her, why would you settle and have kids with her?

    2) Do you think that SHE will leave YOU if you don’t get that legal contract? If you think she’ll leave you, to the point where you need to legally tie her to you to prevent it, why would you settle and have kids with her?

    “And just so you know, thanks for that post and all those links, even if you might think it is absolutely a fool’s play to get marred, those are invaluable pieces of advice.”

    The reality is I can’t stop you guys from getting married, just like I won’t be able to stop my Blue/Purple Pill buddies from getting married. You’re going to probably make a bad decision because all of your social conditioning your whole life has taught you to think that you need to be legally married to have a loving healthy long-term relationship and raise a healthy child which is why the questions I’m asking are hard for you guys to answer with anything concrete, the conginitive dissonance programmed in you keeps you from asking yourselves these questions so your answers will be stuff like “uhhh well, it just IS” or “I dunno, EVERYTHING is a risk so might as well” etc, your brain has been taught to avoid looking at these things objectively and rationally by your life-long conditioning to get you to think exactly what you think because that benefits the FI.

    But if you’re going to do it anyway and learn the hard way, I can at least stuff your backpack full of resources and things to think about and homework assignments and hope that they save your ass from being another cautionary tale someday as I watch you skip off to the slaughterhouse.

    @Blaximus
    “I was divorced. I was not divorced raped. I’ve never experienced a dead bedroom. The breakout opinion on marriage when I asked my elders was 60-40 in favor with caveats.”

    But remember: Blaximus is like, THE Alpha male example, from a young age. He wasn’t Googling Red Pill forums, he was living and breathing it, you guys are NOT Blaximus.

  44. “I do believe that obligation is a two sided coin in that it is also a gain.”

    That is so in a fair contract. In a scam it is not.
    You do not go to a car dealer thinking, “I want to give them all my money.” You go thinking, “I want a car.” You know you will be obligated to recompense them for the car, but you expect the car, or you wouldn’t be there in the first place. You’d just stay home with your money.

    The equation is commutative.

    Hence my initial question. Just what is it that you get that balances the obligation. “Children,” is an incorrect answer. Rounding off to the nearest integer 0% of children have been born to married parents and yet, there they are.

    “A gain for children that it impacts, and my future progeny is a personal gain by extension.”

    You are not talking about children. You are talking about heirs and a legacy, which is something very different.

    And you’re about 200 years too late for that.

    ” . . . do you have a drive deep down to have children someday?”

    Statistically speaking, if I had a child today I wouldn’t live to see it graduate high school, and the child which the state allowed me to have some custody of, for a time, is old enough to be your mother.

    “Balancing that drive and a bioligcal desire to remain single will always be at odds for myself and mankind in general.”

    Putting the Red Pill in your cheek doesn’t count. You have to swallow and digest it.

    Marriage has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction. It is all about inheritance rights.

    What do you inherit by getting married?

    What do your children inherit that they wouldn’t otherwise if you get married?

    “No legal expert here but my reasoning would be that you are already essentially conjoined at that point anyways in the eyes of the law.”

    In Puddleby-on-the-Marsh, yes. In Poughkeepsie, no. Location, location, location.

    “Would that not require you give up your parental rights to be 100 percent obligation free to the child . . .”

    That is virtually impossible. Certainly you retain a state enforced obligation to the children (with no certainty of fair compensation) until the state declares otherwise, and the only way I have ever seen that happen is in the case of another man petitioning to adopt. They always want to have some man on the hook.

    “If there is a better way to have and raise children than marriage as we know it today, I am all ears.”

    A “pre-nup,” sans the marriage as you understand it. A marriage that is arranged according to the commercial code. An actual marriage, in the traditional sense, but not licensed with the state ( a very modern concept).

    Then live exactly as you wish. The only time in my life I ever needed a marriage license was to get divorced.

    Red Pill Protip:

    Marriage, in your day to day life, doesn’t mean a fucking thing. It’s only real purpose in today’s legal system is to set a groundwork for the divorce. Virtually anything you might want to get married for you can do without getting married (in the eyes of state law). It’s all simple, civil law. Virtually everything that marriage is supposed to provide you with is now actually contra-legal.

  45. Big-Al,

    If there is a better way to have and raise children than marriage as we know it today, I am all ears.

    “As we know it today”, there’s nothing to prefer. I think you are saying “what we have today” but your actual thoughts and images are “what we had in the 40’s and 50’s”.

    fleezer,

    OMG. What about ‘legal monogamy’ implies ‘exclusive access to her vag’ in real life? Read a few FR’s here, dude…

    IWantAProle,

    No question, the best possible arrangement between a man and a woman to raise psychologically healthy children is life-lasting marriage.

    Let me know when you find a Western society that actually supports the notion of life-lasting marriage; I want to move there.

  46. I appreciate the replies from everyone. It all has to come from and grow within your frame the way I see it to make it functional.

    The only thing that bugs me is that there truly is no perfect “have your cake and eat it too” solution to balance the left hand and right hand dichotomy of fatherhood v. sowing wild oats everyhwere. I guess that answer/solution has to be weighed from within.

    @YaReally

    “Raising a kid in a household yo both live in, with love and care and provision, and staying together the rest of your lives WITHOUT a legal noose around your neck is a better option than the same WITH the noose.”

    You just described common law marriage (unless I misunderstand you) as the alternative, unless there’s some effective loophole that will never be closed to make that LTR pie in the sky under the same roof deal work…

  47. @ Big Al

    It is true that you do not have to get married to have kids. that is an option. But it is up to you to decide in the end.

    I have to say, in the comments section here, it will be difficult to explain why you want to get married without getting lambasted in some form, lol, but the lambasting is just guys trying to look out for your interests.

    I’ve spun plates for a long time. It was great, until it wasn’t anymore. Guys have differing opinions. Some are good with spinning plates until they are collecting social security, and all of that is fine. Some are scared shitless of the legal ramifications, and that is understandable.

    I know I sound like a marriage proponent and supporter, but I can’t help that perception. I’m all about balance in life and perceptions.

    @ Andy knows that I loves him, lol, buuuttt this : ” I’d talk to a lawyer. I’m only saying this because I wish someone had told me. I don’t know your relationship history or anything, but I’d hope that you’ve had at least a couple mono-LTR’s get past the NRE stage before you get married. Shit gets a little dull. Getting married makes it a little MORE dull… Then you have kids… PSShhh… Say goodbye to your carefree fun sexy times for a few YEARS… I repeat. YEARS until your sex life gets back to normal. At that point… Burden man. BURDEN and More Burden. Lots and lots of burden.

    It’s not very glamorous.”

    I agree with part of this. A guy could benefit in speaking to a legal professional if he is not clear on any negative legal ramifications involved in marriage.

    And I also agree that a man MUST have LOTS or SEX with many women before deciding on settling down. It should be a requirement to get a marriage license. It’s awful to see guys get married, and then go ” What? Wait…. I want more and different pussaayyy!!!! Omg, what have I done!!!”.

    I’ve argued that it needn’t be that way, but it comes of as disingenuous and I have been accused of just that. Lol, but it’s cool as a fan.

    The kids killing the sex life. I personally have not experienced this to a GREATER degree. I guess it could be a gamble in some fashion. This is all stuff that can be vetted for. I think a lot of guys don’t think about these things. Initoially an adjustment period for new parents should be expected in some way, but it is an ADJUSTMENT and it is for a PERIOD..lol.

    The dull thing, I really don’t understand. I don’t find marriage to be dull at all. I don’t like or do ‘ dull ” in anything. It depends on how one defines ‘ marriage ‘. Some guys follow formulas that aren’t in line with who they are, or their personalities. THAT sounds awful and boring and dull.

    It’s worth taking in all of the commenter’s perspectives, and giving some thought.

    But in the end, no one can tell you who you are and what’s actually going to happen. Be informed. Explore the possibilities. VET HARD.

    I don’t find marriage hard, or dull and boring, or sexless. I am just a dude like anyone else. If I can do this, I feel anyone can with the proper MINDSET and KNOWLEDGE. That is the only difference in the end.

  48. @Big Al

    A couple guys asked you to ask yourself the question “why do I need to get married to…” I say ask your girl, “Why do we need to get married? We’re so much in love and we’d do anything for each other! Our love is trancendant and we don’t need a church or the state in between the two of us! We will raise a brood of kids together forever. I Love you so much and I know you love me.” What will she say?

    At the risk of “blathering about divorce rape” and offending Sentient, it is a real thing. I had a magical mystical unicorn too. Now she single millionaire magical mystical unicorm.

    Don’t. Get. Married.

  49. @Blax

    “I’ve spun plates for a long time. It was great, until it wasn’t anymore”

    That is this part of your comment that I’m specifically interested in.
    What exactly changed? Something mental for you?

  50. (also part of the reason Big-Al instinctively wanted to just pop in and out and not drag the conversation back into the marriage debate is BECAUSE he hasn’t actually thought this through objectively/rationally (VS emotionally) or looked into the laws etc, and his brain was hoping no one would ask questions so it wouldn’t have to confront this stuff…which is specifically WHY I initially replied and am laying down questions lol sorry dude, it’s time you and us had a little talk about your plans…maybe it’s off-topic but like, is saving a dude’s ass ever off-topic?)

    “You just described common law marriage (unless I misunderstand you) as the alternative, unless there’s some effective loophole that will never be closed to make that LTR pie in the sky under the same roof deal work…”

    You need to do your fucking research man. This is your LIFE.

    http://www.unmarried.org/common-law-marriage-fact-sheet/

    1) Common Law marriage is NOT in every state

    2) “If you live in one of the common law states and don’t want your relationship to become a common law marriage, you must be clear that it is your intention not to marry. The attorneys who wrote Living Together (additional information below) recommend an agreement in writing that both partners sign and date: “Jane Smith and John Doe agree as follows: That they’ve been and plan to continue living together as two free, independent beings and that neither has ever intended to enter into any form of marriage, common law or otherwise.””

    You are paying lip service to the Red Pill talking about how you’re super prepared hoping we won’t question it, but you haven’t ACTUALLY done any research. Because doing that research is “too negative” and/or would give you alternatives to the nice easy FI-based path that your brain has been conditioned to want to go along with and not question as you slide your neck into the noose.

    That’s why you can’t directly answer the questions I’ve been asking, you keep skirting around answering them. You’ve skimmed the safety manual on skydiving and are about to jump out of the plane going “ehh, if my chute doesn’t open when I’m in the air, and at the same time if I look at my chute before I jump out I find it’s broken and won’t open, then either way my chute won’t open so I might as well jump out without checking it first”.

  51. “You just described common law marriage (unless I misunderstand you) . . .”

    No. You have just misunderstood common law marriage

    ” . . . unless there’s some effective loophole . . .”

    Yeah, it doesn’t exist in many legal jurisdictions, like Poughkeepsie, where it is explicitly not legal.

    And where it is legal there are often some very strict terms for it to be recognized, as traditionally it has been considered something for the law to avoid recognizing whenever it could ( the state child custody scam only arose within my lifetime, so the state had no financial interest in sticking a man with the bill).

    The suggested 5 year term is because, again traditionally, it requires 7 years for a common law marriage to be formed.

  52. @Blaximus
    “it will be difficult to explain why you want to get married without getting lambasted in some form, lol”

    The problem is he’s not explaining why he wants to get married. He’s explaining that he can’t see a reason not to, and he’s explaining that he doesn’t have a view of raising healthy kids that doesn’t involve the legal contract.

    Those are NOT the same things as explaining why he wants to get married. He doesn’t KNOW why he wants to get married…he thinks he wants to get married to have kids, but when we tell him he doesn’t need to be married to have kids, or a life-long relationship living together, he ignores this information because it doesn’t fit his FI-conditioned view of things or he doesn’t want to admit that his girl won’t stay with him and have kids if he doesn’t marry her (which is not abundance mentality, or “on my terms” at all like he originally said, and he should be made aware of that by having to confront it).

    He hasn’t done his research to actually understand common law marriage because alternatives would mean not doing what he’s socially conditioned to do. This is a guy who is just following his social conditioning.

  53. “The problem is he’s not explaining why he wants to get married.”

    Exactly. As I rather suspected he couldn’t, on objective grounds.

    @Sentient & Blaximus:

    As a prophylactic notation, nothing I have been talking about has anything to do with advising against settling down in a very, very fine house, with two cats in the yard and a flock of rug rats.

  54. @kfg
    “Exactly. As I rather suspected he couldn’t, on objective grounds.”

    This. This is actually a great case-study in guys who are Red Pill aware but still FI-conditioned and aren’t even aware of it. This is a guy who’s running on his social programming and is not taking necessary precautions or looking up necessary information to protect himself. Full NRE/unicorn/NAWALT in effect regardless of what he’s saying (what he’s saying and what he’s doing are two opposite things).

    “@Sentient & Blaximus:
    As a prophylactic notation, nothing I have been talking about has anything to do with advising against settling down in a very, very fine house, with two cats in the yard and a flock of rug rats.”

    lol also this. This isn’t an “LTRs are bad” debate, so let’s not go down that path. This isn’t even necessarily a monogamy debate. I’m not saying don’t settle down and have kids etc.

    I’m saying don’t legally tie a noose around your neck to DO it. If dude wants to settle down, even into monogamy (while understanding how that changes the dynamics because he’s read Blackdragon and my posts I linked), it’s all good…BUT entering a legal marriage contract, on the grounds of “well I dunno, how else am I supposed to raise kids? Nothing is perfect”, that’s a whoooooooooole ‘nother can of worms.

  55. @YaReally: This is actually a great case-study in guys who are Red Pill aware but still FI-conditioned and aren’t even aware of it.

    Yup, it highlights reflexive choice rather than conscious choice.

    @Big-Al: The only thing that bugs me is that there truly is no perfect “have your cake and eat it too” solution to balance the left hand and right hand dichotomy of fatherhood v. sowing wild oats everywhere. I guess that answer/solution has to be weighed from within.

    Indeed. Each walks his own tightrope and chooses whether or not there is a net beforehand.

  56. @ Klem

    ‘ That is this part of your comment that I’m specifically interested in.
    What exactly changed? Something mental for you?’

    Lol. I have been asked this question here multiple times and I have a hard time describing ‘ what changed ‘ to anyone’s satisfaction.

    I always assumed guys would want something different in life after a while. Banging multiple chicks was just not satisfying after a while. It was FUN, but not satisfying. They all had expiration dates, after which they weren’t as sexually appealing. I still busted nuts all over them, but it wasn’t gratifying.

    But I think a huge part of that was my wanting to keep them at arms length. I did not want them for marriage or kids or even as companions for the most part. They were for sex. Maybe a movie or dinner here and there. And if I ever started to catch any kind of feelings towards them, they were nexted with prejudice.

    For me, it got tiring. Like, I used to go to Atlantic City for weekends when I was stressed or down, and I’d grab a chick to take with me. Towards the end of that, I felt like it was a mistake because after sex I wanted them to vanish. I was happy and excited in the beginning… on the drive down to AC, in the suite on arrival, in the casino and having dinner, while walking on the boardwalk, and especially while railing them out. But then I wanted them…somewhere else. I knew I didn’t EVER want to be tied to these specific girls, and I’d rather cut off my dick than knock one of them up, even though they were all cool people and very hot and sexy, and a couple of them were very smart, they just weren’t my idea of marriage material.

    So I kept adding and subtracting broads. Constantly. They all started to blend together in my head. In the dark I’d forget who I was fucking. Then you’d bump into them while you were out shopping and they’d start trying to hint at wanting to get together, when all you wanted to do was grab some pizza and go home and watch the game. And you really didn’t want to have to wrangle her out of the apartment afterwards. Hurt feelzz….next.

    Lol, this is the first time I’ve actually tried to answer this in depth. I’m gaining understanding by typing this. TRM is something else.

    Ok, story –

    I was dealing with one chick, who remained steady through all of my plates. Truth be told, I had a real thing for her. She was gorgeous, at least a true 9, and she worked for a hedge fund. She cleared 7 figures a year, including her bonus. I would take her to the Jersey Shore, and she’d take me to the Hamptons.

    I really, really liked her, but I did not trust her one bit. But she was amazing in bed, and that’s what I wanted from her. She has the heart and soul of a hustler, always pushing life to it’s limits. Any man who locked her down in marriage was going to get fucked royally.

    Once after some furniture destroying sex, I went to the bathroom and one of my plates called and left a message on my phone. She heard it.

    She queried me about the caller, and over the next few hours she kept talking about a threesome. Then she started demanding it kind of, but playfully. I nixed the idea, even though the girl that called was ‘ bi-sexual ‘.

    Fastforward about 2 months.

    I’m hanging at home with the message girl. She’d spent the night and I didn’t kick her out in the morning, so we were chilling on the couch. Hedge fund baby shows up unannounced. I really don’t give a fuck, so I let her in. She went right after message girl. They were both saying how gorgeous the other was.

    skip, skip, skip…

    We all wind up in bed. A blonde and brunette and myself. An 8 and a 9.

    But, I was not as excited as I should have been. It wasn’t registering like it should have. I literally felt like I was just going through the motions. It did not feel special at all.

    But, the two of them started seeing each other pretty regularly, so there’s that. I started dropping plates after that. I kept one girl that was into sports, and sometimes she’d hand out and cook, walk around wearing my football jerseys and nothing else, and veg out in the livingroom with me watching games and talking.

    It’s bad to say, but she was a 5.5…maybe a 6. My friends used to say to me, about her ” when did you get a new dog??’. She was great in bed, and I liked hanging out with her, but…no… I couldn’t go after her for anything serious. Not fully my type. She did look like Halle Berry’s younger, darker and not as pretty sister. It was the hair. Lol.

    I know, shallow. LOL.

    I still wanted pussy in the worse way, but I didn’t want to chase and I didn’t want chicks in my space once I pulled my dick out of them. I couldn’t figure out how to install and ejector in my bed either.

    I started just talking to chicks, and getting to know them without pushing them into bed right away. I had to let them closer than arm’s length. It was a slow process.

    I turned to strippers for just sex. I hardly ever had to ask one to leave.

    So Klem, I dunno if it was more mental than physical in the end. It just wasn’t as rewarding or satisfying.

    Lol, this is my longest explanation. Maybe it makes sense.

  57. Sorta to the OP:

    So I was helping a ~60yo friend with some construction shit the other day and ended up bringing some stuff to his new house. I hadn’t seen it yet.

    The new property had two buildings on it – a house and a fairly sizeable pole barn. The house was fairly posh, well-appointed, kinda big for a pair of empty-nesters but nothing crazy. He seemed OK with it but has been complaining that it a) ended up costing way more than it was intended too; and that it b) also ended up covered in ornamental shit like windowboxes and expensive countertops that he didn’t want but his wife did.

    His polebarn was a nice building. Insulated, well-lit, spacious, clean and well-finished basic functional space.

    It occurred to me that, without the impetus of women’s acquisition and nesting instincts, men would build homes that would look far more like the latter building than the former. I mean, nothing wrong with some nice-looking stuff and some creature comforts, but really – the pole barn was his house, just sans cooking and sleeping areas.

    All it really needed was enough space to work on machines and keep some kayaks and a fishing boat and a trailer and so on; be clean; stay between 50-90 degrees yearround; and be functional.

    Now that our economic swings and overall prosperity have taken the status and glamor out of real estate ownership, we’re seeing a regression to the norm – men don’t need much crap. Just a place to stay and the tools/items we need to do the things we want to do.

    You can see how things went when you look at houses with an eye to the decade they were built in. The nineties were the worst. Go into a random development built in the 90’s and you’ll see the bubble about the burst, the social status nakedly on display. It was an exercise of how many status markers could be fit into the average American’s budget for a 30-year 13.66% APR mortgage. The houses look like they were built by assembly line with a few random variables like shape and color changed to make them seem individual. The houses prioritize size over quality – they’re too large for the families that held them, and don’t have the benefit of luxuries added into them that wealthy houses used their space for. They look bloated, overinflated, their foundations tiny and their upper stories large to keep down costs while boasting high sq ft. There is a deck tacked on awkwardly so they can check that box too. Gas barbeque. There will be a small area of the house that features ‘Genuine Marble!’. The cabinets are fiberboard, unless they splurged and got ‘Genuine Oak!’. The lawn is just a lawn. A tilted square of green bleeding into the lawn of the next house. A Labrador once lived there, the TV was more used than the kitchen, the family once tried gardening but it didn’t work out, and everyone smoked outside so as to not affect property values.

    Lol.

    Never trusted hobbies that were expensive for the most part. I could write and draw with a pad of paper and a pencil, and right there is two potential lifetime vocations. Things like collectible microtrains with realistic scenery that cost thousands to build always seemed like a scam to me. Video games could be fun but failed the cost/benefit metric. I dipped my toe into fishing for the first time last summer and have everything I could need for inland fishing for like $70 – and I bet I could have gotten the more expensive bits for cheap to free if I’d spent a bit of time asking around for old unused poles and crap.

    Heck, even travel doesn’t have to be expensive. People fetishize expensive vacations now – it’s just another form of materialism via social status signalling. Travel can become a possession, a consumer good, if you’re traveling to Paris for ‘The Paris Experience’ rather than for your experience. And all your pictures and memories are collected and put on display, just like those damn little trains or commemorative plates.

    When I travel, I usually just tank up and drive (or pedal) someplace I haven’t been before, just to see what it’s like. And unless something exceptional happens there, I tend to not say a damn thing about it afterwards.

  58. Totally agree with Blaximus: Don’t marry expecting full time access to the vagina and it is never about sex. That’s the paradox: you need lots of sex in your second, third and fourth decades and beyond. Marriage or monogamy does not insure this. The only relative insurance is keeping your value up, up, and up to the level where a feminine girl wants to fuck you. If you want sex make sure you do not let your value where it currently is go down. And keep increasing your value, no matter what your relationship status is until you are at least 35.

    The thing is Big-Al, the good thing is, you got more options than others because you seem to have a good red pill understanding which is critically needed and seem to have a good professional track. That’s great and half done is just begun.

    No matter what, keep your value up.

    Keeping your value up includes keeping your body in great shape. Improving your mind, mindset, deal with negative, inhibiting ego issues, and learn classic information.

    Know what your goals are and keep desire levels up to reach them. Never compromise your professional job (making wealth in America for lack of a better statement) for any relationship, esp in marriage.

    I can barely waffle on the idea based on your stated goal of raising children well. Yes a pair-bonded relationship between mother and father is the best for the children. (Marriage or no marriage, monogamy or no monogamy). You want great children, be great at relationship with their mother.

    Learn as much as you can, additionally, about relationship game because no matter what it seems you are desiring that. Everyone is different and in different circumstances and locals. I presume you live in a locale and family that was geared more toward marriage.

    To that end, you should innoculate yourself against the pitfalls of relationship game. The goal is to not fuck up. 80% of the time guys that want an LTR will fuck it up.

    The good thing is the manosphere is here to help. Even if it is just to guide you in the right direction.

    I agree with BlackDragon’s assessment of desire going down with the length of the relationship. I’ve been in Andy’s shoes and dealt with the more boring childhood years. Realize this is normal, normal, normal. And the thing that will avoid you not getting enough sex that you need is YOU and YOUR PERFORMANCE (yes, your burden of performance) , no matter what your lifestyle or relationship types are.

    You can reverse engineer this stuff and avoid pitfalls by books such as these (but be warned they’ll cost you $6.00 each and take a few hours to read–call it research):

    To balance power in a relationship (the one who has more power is the one who needs the other less. And a balance of power is best. You having more power is not always healthy for the relationship–and this is not the same as keeping her desire for you) this book gives examples of how to recover, but it also demonstrates how not to fall into a pitfall:

    The Passion Trap: How to Right an Unbalanced Relationship (2nd Edition) by Dean C. Delis

    You can also engineer along the way to keep your value up by observing how you would go about gaining love lost back if you fucked up after 10 years. Just don’t let these things you aready have as a man slip away. Develop and keep the attributes that BluePillProfessor advocates in 10 to 12 levels of healthy masculine dread in a relationship for a low sex marriage. In other words, don’t go were others have gone on the road to fucking up:

    Saving a Low Sex Marriage: A Man’s Guide to Dread, Seduction and the Long Game (Kindle Edition) by Bluepill Professor.

    I don’t agree that the limited information you shared should lead to absolute recommendations about what relationship you should shape. You might know your self well. You right your own script. It is axiomatic that marriage is a losing game. I’m not advocating for it for you, but I certainly wouldn’t advise you not to if you have the confidence of a winner. LOL, all my life 13% odds of winning in life never bothered me in life. I decided in 1977 that life in the United States was one big game and I decided I was going to play it well. And accomplish my goals and plans.

    Having children was not a goal of mine. Having children was a by product of fucking my wife. (You don’t have to try this at home, I started at or before Blackdragon’s cutoff point of 1990, the are worse today.)

    I think the discussion is great and YaReally’s pushback is wonderful. Especially the lack of knowing and research. Research, otherwise known as reading is a man’s friend. 6 months of hard fought research should be a minimum requirement prior to marriage. And don’t go through with marriage just for the sake of it if that research leads you in the opposite direction.

    Keep in mind FI conditioning is not the same as Social Conditioning (with the caveat that most of today’s SC is in the vise grip of the FI).

    Not all Social Conditioning of the last 2000 years is bad including the old style European communities Social Conditioning (like where I live in the USA). Big Al perhaps is responding to social conditioning. I mean, like where I live “everbody” is married and tends to stay >80% married for 25 years. Maybe everybody in his family and his girlfriend married and stayed married. Hell if I had to do it over again I would marry the same 25 year old girl and have the same two children who are pushing 25. Because of Social Conditioning that was not bogus. And I am having Blaximus’ self described fun and happiness in marriage. Much more fun than if I had been single the last 25 years.

    I’m neutral on marriage or not for Big Al, but I do claim not enough information.

  59. YaReally: “This isn’t an “LTRs are bad” debate, so let’s not go down that path. This isn’t even necessarily a monogamy debate. I’m not saying don’t settle down and have kids etc.”

    I wish I had said it that way. I agree.

  60. “The houses prioritize size over quality . . .”

    Although commonly called “McMansions,” I like James Kunstler’s phrase “a cartoon of a house.”

    His book title The Geography of Nowhere is also a great play off of Gertrude Stein’s famous quote “There is no there there.”

    I recently found myself telling a woman that my ideal would be a small, one story, house, and a large barn. The “house” could even be built into a corner of the barn.

    In an urban area an old commercial garage could substitute for the barn, a cabin built at the back wall, a zen garden around it and the machine area up by the overhead door.

  61. If you take Rollo’s section in the OP called Off the Reservation and then you have Big Al understand this in light of womens materialism and Briffault’s law, it does not preclude a successful LTR and children if the ship is guided properly. I’m saying this because Big Al is going to pursue a relationship and the following is red pill theory (and research for Big Al).

    If no one caught this before, it is a good read. If you did catch it before it deserves to be placed in comments in relation to Rollo’s the Original Post.

    All women will attempt this in an LTR with children 100% of the time, over time. It is your job as a male to not allow their strategy to succeed. Make yours succeed. For the children.

    It’s a long one and I’m going to go with the Reddit WordPress thingy.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/4hpmg2/theory_the_betaization_process_stages_of_female/?ref=share&ref_source=link

  62. Back to some of the earlier comments, I remember reading somewhere (one of the metas here or on Dalrock) that many single Italian men live at home with their parents until they marry, and it’s no stigma to the women they date. Of course, this is their way of supporting their parents (even while getting cooked for), and they expect to inherit the house when the parents die. The Italian guys have full-time, good paying jobs – and freedom.

    There’s a great deal of difference between living at home for convenience / saving money, and because you failed to launch. But those two things get conflated in our culture, where everybody is supposed to have their own everything.

  63. @yareally

    Generally you have been doing very well here, and I don’t think it is off topic at all, as bros before homes is not about real estate

    “… I’m not saying don’t settle down and have kids etc.

    I’m saying don’t legally tie a noose around your neck to DO it.”

    The question primarily is not financial, but about fatherhood. That is does the noose make it more likely, the same, or less likely he loses fatherhood, his key objective (having his own kids, raising them for two decades). Old rules was the noose made losing fatherhood less likely, but are cash and prizes making it more likely? If you don’t put the noose around your head is it easier to take the kids?

  64. @Hmm: ” . . . everybody is supposed to have their own everything.”

    It maximizes consumer spending while minimizing the chance of a new dynasty forming. As George Carlin noted, “It’s a club, and you ain’t in it.”

    Every dynasty operates as an extended family, keeping the value and profit inside the family, building it up for generations.

    You, who are not a member of the club, are encouraged and shamed to have your own place, with your own everything. The Bushes, Kennedys, et al have family compounds.

    This is also part of why the truly wealthy, who are staggeringly wealthy, largely fly so far under the radar that you’ve never heard of them. On paper it doesn’t look they have or make all that much, but they have access to and control most of the world’s resources within the club.

  65. I can’t believe we still have men coming here asking if they should get married after claiming that they’ve swallowed TRP.

    Simple fact: modern marriage is TOXIC to males. Absolutely lethal. It is 100% counter to your sexual strategy and 100% conducive to hers by design. Yes we need a succinct useful answer as to what to do instead of marriage if you want children, but marriage is definitely not the legal structure you’re looking for. It’s just a way to make sure she leaves with the kids, child support, AND half your shit instead of just the kids and child support. Who the fuck in their right mind would sign up for that with coin flip determining how it turns out?

    #WTF

  66. @Sentient: ” If you don’t put the noose around your head is it easier to take the kids?”

    No. The kids are not yours. The Patriarchy died in the 19th century and since WWII an entire new legal structure where the state has ownership of children has been built. That is one of the reasons there is no reason to get married. It doesn’t matter.

    Married or not, the kids are not yours.

    Us old farts got married when the new structure hadn’t quite been built up yet, but as I noted above, the state determines the terms of the contract and can modify them, post hoc, as it wishes.

    You agreed to one contract, but you are bound by another. Old marriages can continue under the social structure that was established long ago, but new ones begin under the current terms and social expectations.

    Your experience of marriage is just as irrelevant to young people today as your experience of rotary dial phones that weight 10 pounds and are tethered to the wall.

  67. “It’s just a way to make sure she leaves with the kids, child support, AND half your shit instead of just the kids and child support.”

    Not quite. The structure of marriage (rather than Marriage(tm)) is that if she leaves, she can’t take the kids. That’s the noose around her neck.

  68. @kfg

    You call it Marriage(tm), I call it modern marriage. It’s a resource extraction and hypergamy optimization scheme. Plain and simple.

  69. Big Al I was married…once. She asked me. She was a little older and wanted kids. She didn’t tell me everything.

    She was the full package: great cook, loving, feminine, sweet, up for anything—right up until we got married. After that she started pushing to switch that dynamic and seize frame.

    We didn’t have kids. We split up. She then revealed that in her early 20’s she’d had an affair with a married man in her office and become pregnant. She had an abortion and since then had been full of guilt and shame. She felt that the fact she couldn’t get pregnant was some type of curse for that.

    I had no idea about this until I asked to split up. All that baggage she was hiding made it clear her motives for getting married were not that pure.

    AWALT. Even the sweetest most feminine ones will have a dark side. I was lucky. Our divorce was amicable and she got married almost immediately after our divorce. All worked out.

    Now being divorced at my age is actually a DHV. I can get away with not wanting to get married because “been there done that”.

    Surprisingly it was only a factor in one relationship….with the crazy ex. She made a thing out of it saying “You’re never going to get married….there’s no future.”

    Three years later she’s still single and last I knew was chasing some married guy slightly younger than her. So…yah.

    I think there are alternatives to marriage. The laws in most places are set up to make it as painful for the guy as possible while making it as easy for the woman.

  70. “You call it Marriage(tm) . . .”

    I call it Marriage(tm) because it isn’t marriage at all. It is a civil union.
    That’s why gay “marriage” has suddenly become a non-issue. Gay marriage is nothing but a civil union, just like all “marriages.”

    The pea is no longer under the shell you saw it placed under.

  71. Old marriages can continue under the social structure that was established long ago, but new ones begin under the current terms and social expectations.

    Dalrock points out that the new family model is a child support model. The purpose of a father is to support his (putative) child(ren), period. The entire anti-family law system is built around this concept of “man as sperm donor and ATM”.

    He can be ejected at any time for no reason from the household, but he will support the children or go to prison. The responsibilities are vast, the authority is limited.

  72. @kfg

    “Your experience of marriage is just as irrelevant to young people today as your experience of rotary dial phones that weight 10 pounds and are tethered to the wall.”

    My experience of marriage is irrelevant and I haven’t a clue why you brought it up, since I didn’t mention it.

    My experience of fatherhood is relevant. When your wife/spouse/partner/baby mama/whatever sees the strong feelings you have towards your children, you know (or maybe you don’t know) the “I’ll do anything for them”, then she knows she’s got the real noose.

  73. “Yes we need a succinct useful answer as to what to do instead of marriage if you want children…”

    Good luck with that…..

    And lets just say that that a coin flip is a 50% chance and we already established that the chances of a marriage “succeeding” are 13 %. (ref BlackDragon). I’m not being facetious or advocating for any one thing, just stating those two things for more clarity.

    That’s some ambiguity to deal with for Big Al.

  74. @ SJF

    When I can actually get an answer as to why guys that I know decide to marry, if they don’t outright struggle to answer without saying ‘ love ‘, I often hear some reference to ‘ pussy ‘. When I ask them how do they know that she will actually fuck them for the next 30+ years, usually I get some form of ‘ she’d better ‘ or something similar.

    Asking them to tell me 10 things about their prospective wife, I will hear ‘ nice ‘ 99% of the time in their description. Occasionally there will be a ‘ good girl ‘ thrown in.

    When they ask me the same question ( because you’re so smart * sarcasm * ), I tell them that it’s not as much about her, as it is about me and how she reacts to me.

    Sure, I do love my wife, but that’s not the most important thing. That *feeling* of love for her is not important to anyone but me, hence I treat it like classified information – on a need to know basis. That love gets me ZERO guarantees. I demonstrate that I care deeply about her, I say very little to that effect.

    Big Al I hope you’re still reading along….

    Top 10 list of things I must have in a wife.

    1) Respect. Respect goes a long way and covers a gambit of scenarios. Be mindful that respect is earned through action.

    2) Submission to my authority. This means that I must assume a position of authority = Burden. She can express her opinion in everything, and I will listen, but ultimately she has to abide by my decision in the end. period. She can’t harbor bad feelz about this arrangement.

    3) High Libido. Lol, what I mean by this is that she has to be able to be turned on without succumbing to outside, bullshit distractions. She has to have at minimum a rudimentary understanding about a man’s need/desire for sexual contact, and she has to be appreciative of the fact that I’m displaying desire for her. She’s not ‘ doing me any favors ‘ by fucking me. She’s gotta want to. Burden again.

    4) Femininity. I’m not gay. I want her to embrace the femininity she has inside and display it. Lol, I spoke to my wife just today concerning the fact that she’s had her hair up in a bun for 2 days. It was down an hour later, with nice, dangling earrings. ( wifey is approaching 47. She looks much younger with her hair down. She has beautiful, long flowing locs. It’s a portion of what visually attracted me to her in the first place..)

    5) The ability to follow instruction. I guess maybe it’s more correct to say ‘ take instruction ‘. If I tell her specifically that I need a thing done, I want exactly that thing done as I’ve requested. No half assing. The closer she follows instruction without complaint is an important barometer regarding how she is thinking.

    6) The ability to partner with me in parenting. I’m the authority, so I can’t have a usurper in my midst. It’s her job to discern what the correct course of action is in any given situation, in accordance with my wishes. Always. She’s must stay the course I’ve set.

    7) The ability to maintain a comfortable, clean home. I have no issue swinging the occasional mop, or washing the errant dish, but I like the fact that her seeing me doing this gives her a slight panic. lol. I do the plumbing/repairs/yardwork – the ‘ comfy/clean ‘ is her purview. Plus, I’m a bit of a slob.

    8) The ability to connect with others and treat people reasonably well. As my wife, she is a reflection on me, especially when she’s out in the world. Nobody likes a mean bitch. Finger wagging, loudness and head swirling will not be allowed or tolerated.

    9) Convey thoughts clearly. What I mean is she has to understand that I’m not a chick. I don’t want the dramatic version of events. Speak to me in a way a man can understand. Lol, this takes practice for most women, but again the effort applied is telling.

    10) Understand that I am not ‘ trapped ‘ or ‘ living under threat ‘. Appreciate the fact that all I do, I do by choice and want, not need or fear. I don’t demand verbal appreciation, or cakes and cupcakes baked as a ‘ thank you ‘, but I do expect a fairly consistent aire of appreciation in deed and action. So It is fine to voice displeasure, but harping and bitching will not be tolerated. A wife, imo, must always understand that I can be ghost in a matter of minutes. As long as it takes to walk out the door to my car. I stay because 1-9 are fulfilled, and I am content. It’s imperative that this is understood by her, but it must be done in as few words as humanly possible. Always, let her fill in the blanks in her head.

    For me, these things are absolutely non negotiable.

    These are the things I vet a woman for exhaustively.

    And even if a woman passes all of my requirements, it is still paramount to understand that there are still zero guarantees. I’m looking for maximum enjoyment, and minimum stress/silly shit while we are together. the goal is to wind up sitting side by side in rocking chairs in old age. If the rockers wind up getting smashed in anger as we go our separate ways, at least it will be an anomaly, not a pattern.

  75. TLDRed a bunch of this, it is hard to keep up.

    @Big Al – You misunderstand, so let me be clearer. At your age you have no idea who in the fuck you should be marrying. You don’t have the best field of available mates to choose from at your age either. You are not optimizing and playing to a male-advantaged script. I guarantee you are just really finding out who you are as a man at your age. That’s okay, focus on you – you have plenty of time. You can marry some 24yo hottie when you are 35 – but at that point YOUR life will be established. She’ll be stepping into a life you framed, not one “built together” in some equalist fantasy.

    There is something axiomatic about an abundance mentality for me, the fact that they are interchangeable. Men are built to enjoy many different women and to feel great about it. When I really internalize that and own it, the idea of monogamy just sounds absurd.

    YMMV and sure, being single isn’t great in some ways/ But also know this, Big Al, I lost a child due to divorce. I was a “good man” and “did the right thing” – and it didn’t make a blind bit of difference. I was able to be cast aside without regret. AWALT – don’t kid yourself.

    My guess is she’s locking you down, not the other way around. Just sayin’…wish i had time to read the rest of the comments I gots to get my ass streetside…

  76. KFG

    @Sentient: ” If you don’t put the noose around your head is it easier to take the kids?”

    No. The kids are not yours.

    This was for Redlight…

    carry on…

  77. On the whole noose question however…

    What power does the noose have if you cut the rope?

    agency etc…

  78. Anonymus Reader

    He can be ejected at any time for no reason from the household, but he will support the children or go to prison. The responsibilities are vast, the authority is limited.

    You realize though that this is the same deal for an unmarried guy who has kids… or who even unknowingly agrees to paternity for kids that he knows are not his…

  79. @Redlight: “My experience of marriage is irrelevant and I haven’t a clue why you brought it up, since I didn’t mention it.”

    I brought it up because I mistook the speaker, as the addressee has informed me. Mea erroris.

    “When your wife/spouse/partner/baby mama/whatever sees the strong feelings you have towards your children, you know . . .”

    I know.

    @Sentient: “What power does the noose have if you cut the rope?”

    None, but how many can, or will, do that? It means disowning your children at best, and prison as well at worst.

    Here’s the website of a man that did it:

    https://wimminz.wordpress.com/

    Here’s one of his dad’s maxims that I like:

    “Do it properly, you may be the next fucker who has to work on it”

  80. You realize though that this is the same deal for an unmarried guy who has kids… or who even unknowingly agrees to paternity for kids that he knows are not his…

    I realized this some years ago.

    Dalrock’s point stands, and it is an important one. “Marriage” in the US is a child-support based system. Some call it “marriage 2.0”, kfg has his own name; the referent remains the same no matter what symbol one uses to point to it. We could argue about when this happened – was it 1969, was it mid 1970’s, was it 1980’s, was it 1992..doesn’t matter.

    Men contemplating marriage need to know up front they will have much responsibility, and very little authority in legal terms. He’s one phone call away from being taken to jail if she gets angry enough.

    An entire industry exist to feed off of divorce, many sources will be whispering in the woman’s ear “cash and prizes! Ca$h and prize$!”, that if he goes to church he will get zero support from that institution (and may find AMOG preacher actively undermining whatever authority he has cobbled together).

    Any man contemplating marriage now, vs. via time machine to when some old guys got married “back in th’ DAY”, needs Game, and he needs it from the start, from before the start. Provider game won’t cut it, because now as opposed to 30 years ago women are their own betas – they often are paid as much as their husbands, and quite possibly more in the case of many millennials.

    Blaximus’s list is excellent. Respect must be number one[*]. And that means the self-improvement aspect of Game up front, because regaining respect after it has been lost is 10 times harder than maintaining it from the start.

    The marriage game is rigged against men more than any casino gambling setup in a legal house. Don’t go into that place without a great deal of knowledge.

    [*] Churchgoing people don’t seem to get this, oddly. It’s in the Bible, men are told to love their wives, and women are told to respect their husbands. Yet some of the most contemptuous women I know outside of full-up radfems are churchladies.

  81. “Some call it “marriage 2.0” . . . ”

    That began with the British Custody of Infants Act 1839.

    “We could argue about when this happened . . .”

    Whenever, in your locale, the Tender Years Doctrine of the Custody of Infants Act was reworded as “in the best interests of the child.”

    On the one hand that is the legal instrument that de facto transferred ownership of children to the state, and on the other hand palmed the Tender Years Doctrine pea.

    What does the state consider the best interests of the child? In most cases . . . the Tender Years Doctrine.

    Once palmed the hustler can place the pea wherever he wants it to appear.

  82. “Blaximus’s list is excellent. Respect must be number one[*]. And that means the self-improvement aspect of Game up front, because regaining respect after it has been lost is 10 times harder than maintaining it from the start.”

    @ Blaximus

    You got me laughing out loud. Fucking hilarious.

    You say: “As my wife, she is a reflection on me, especially when she’s out in the world.”

    You do realize that you are the perfect embodiment of a guy that is fantastically good at being a masculine male (and deserve praise for that here).

    Your list of 10 things are a reflection of your wife coming along with you because you are THE MAN. A man of legends. She is submissive because you are dominant and she is filled up by that.

    It’s not her that intrinsically has those 10 good points. (Have YaReally follow that vetting list in 10 years and he’ll either lose his beer gut fast or end up in a psychiatric institution trying to find a 2026 girl like that). It’s you evoke give her desire and draw out the the 10 good points out about her.

    Laughing out loud. I love you man.

    Separately:

    I know all this reminiscing from older guys (I feel very youthful and young these days) can get tiring. But just like your uncles and grandfather, the hope is that some of our shit might resonate with the younger crowd.
    I go back farther than you in my recollections about my “first wife”. You are recalling about your second wife.

    I was in love with a hot piece of ass that I vetted for two years. She had great character, high self esteem and I was by no means in control. (You know, the same feeling of being in love is being out of control.) I was comfortable with the not being “in control” of future events. Part of that was my actual live in the field training at the time.

    If you don’t know the feeling of being a young resident doctor being on call for 36 hours and after 5:00 PM being in charge of the Code Blue team in a 1000 bed hospital, them I’m here to tell you that it is the ultimate “Show us what’s behind door #2”. Scary shit.

    But being in love is fun. But it only lasts 6 or more months and then you get down to business of living your life. LTR’s are definitely not never ending “in love” affairs, but that doesn’t mean they are not for nothing.

    And if you can’t deal with breakdowns and hurdles in life, well, how much of a masculine red pill stoic man are you. If I can’t go to my farm and not be afraid of a dead ash tree falling on me, a tie rod on my John Deere 5420 breaking, the weather conditions, the septic field going bad, or any of the myriad of things that pose risk, what business do I have marrying myself to a farm (and having a window on Mother Nature)

    And as Rollo says: No man has ever been able to vet a LTR properly. That statement implies risk. No guy that is good at being a man is uncomfortable with risk. I sense risk averse undertones in this not taking a fork in the road stuff.

    Have mastery but don’t be afraid of scary shit. That zone that is called “Your Edge” is scary and dangerous. It’s up to you to approach it, but not fall off of it.

  83. @kfg

    “It maximizes consumer spending while minimizing the chance of a new dynasty forming. As George Carlin noted, “It’s a club, and you ain’t in it.”

    I have found my purpose in life. And it’s thanks to you and everyone else in this little proto-tribe.

    How do I accomplish this while turning it into work that’s fun to do?

    I feel like if I really pursued my passions I could make alot of money, but I don’t know how I’d become an oligarch if I’m still working at reversing my downward spiral. Thanks to you all, however, I know of SEVERAL things I’ll never do again. Like expect work to be fun all the time. The plebs have a different idea of fun than the hierarchs, obviously.

    That said, I got a huge chip on my shoulder. And I kinda wanna make Mark Zuckerberg eat it. But isn’t he just the latest face on some much bigger group of people? What fucking balls he has, making a way for a bunch of people to look me up in case they wanna deny me work.

    Also, wouldn’t it take some epic level of smarts and confidence to position myself into becoming such a person?

    So much research to be done. On my competition, on….everyone.

  84. @ SJF

    ‘ Your list of 10 things are a reflection of your wife coming along with you…’

    This.

    Lol, you summed it up precisely right there. It’s about her desire and willingness to come along. I’ll do the guiding and will do my level best not to fuck up her/or my family’s lives.

    Will she buy in? Will she submit? Will she respect and trust?

    When she does all of these things, my burden becomes clear. I don’t stress over a burden I’ve sought under my conditions.

    ‘ And as Rollo says: No man has ever been able to vet a LTR properly. That statement implies risk. No guy that is good at being a man is uncomfortable with risk. I sense risk averse undertones in this not taking a fork in the road stuff.’

    Yup, risk is a thing to be managed, not feared. Nothing ventured…etc.

  85. @Yollo Comanche: “How do I accomplish this while turning it into work that’s fun to do?”

    You’ve caught me at back to scratch on trying to figure that one out myself. Things change, you adapt, then they change again. There is no “done.”

    Die biting the throat.

  86. “When she does all of these things, my burden becomes clear. I don’t stress over a burden I’ve sought under my conditions.”

    You’re cracking me up again Blax!

    Your burdens are clear, they are No Big Deal because you got them handled, and demonstrate that (without explaining)….

    …..and then she does all those things.

    LoL.

  87. @ YaReally

    … Oh God, I know I’m blabbering on too much… Lol

    ‘ The problem is he’s not explaining why he wants to get married. He’s explaining that he can’t see a reason not to, and he’s explaining that he doesn’t have a view of raising healthy kids that doesn’t involve the legal contract.’

    Hmmmm, you’re right. I missed this initially. Not seeing a reason NOT to get married is not the same as WANTING to get married. Different and deadly motivations.

    Raising healthy, well adjusted kids has nothing to do with the state, unless shit’s gone horribly wrong.

  88. “Burden man. BURDEN and More Burden. Lots and lots of burden.”

    that was @andy nailing it

    Now like the rest of us I’m wondering if there is any conceivable chance at all that fatherhood is feasible, so I keep an eye on the millenial marriages in my circles. One that I had good hope involved a guy who has considerable alpha qualities and his wife who is great with kids and no drama. They were “soulmates”. We had two occasions recently to be with them and their two kids. After the second, I said to my wife “it’s as if all the fun has been sucked out of him, leaving dead serious.” My wife suggests perhaps his job, but he never found that a problem.

  89. @ redlight

    ‘ Now like the rest of us I’m wondering if there is any conceivable chance at all that fatherhood is feasible, so I keep an eye on the millenial marriages in my circles. One that I had good hope involved a guy who has considerable alpha qualities and his wife who is great with kids and no drama. They were “soulmates”. We had two occasions recently to be with them and their two kids. After the second, I said to my wife “it’s as if all the fun has been sucked out of him, leaving dead serious.” My wife suggests perhaps his job, but he never found that a problem.”

    That’s too bad. I call it ‘ burden ‘, but it’s not the same as lugging boulders up a mountainside. Burden to me only signifies a thing that has to be done for a particular outcome to be realized.

    Anything sucking all of the fun out of a man is a mistake. It’s a matter of perception. I’m going to put that on T-shirts and sell them for $9.99. My family does not have the ability to suck fun out of me. lol. They give me fun, and I allow myself to have fun. Every day. Hell, I’m getting ready to get on the road for the next hour, in shitty truck filled traffic on a god forsaken highway. I’m gonna enjoy the hour because it is a choice. It’s either that or walk home, or stay where I am indefinitely.

  90. Whenever, in your locale, the Tender Years Doctrine of the Custody of Infants Act was reworded as “in the best interests of the child.”

    Ah. I recall digging down to the “tender years” doctrine a few years back, when reading the late Spearhead in the context of father custody of children as legal default. I recall noting that it slightly preceded the first feminist convention but not by much.

    As with many things, the rate-of-change per unit of time was initially slow – a man from 1820 would find marriage in 1880 more or less recognizable – and accelerated. What curve fits is anyone’s guess. One would expect a sigmoid function given many natural processes do that, but if so we are in the extremely nonlinear portion of it. There’s no end in sight, still.

    Elsewhere in the world one can find church people arguing about “complementarianism” vs. “egalitarianism” like kids in a sandbox fighting over a toy. They all have a pearl-clutching attitude about patriarchy of course, even though none of them have ever seen it.

    Abstractly there’s a straight line from “Tender years” to “votes for women” to “men’s-fault divorce” to VAWA.

  91. Random Musings:

    Mike Pence: “You can’t fake good children.”

    Mike Pence made a great speech and used a lot of Game micro-facial expressions work for him.

    DJT’s children are are a testament to Rollo’s “As Good as it Gets” essay. Serial Monogamy anyone? Tiffany Trump garnering the headlines?

    The Ivanka children including Eric were spectacular. You’d think a great Patriarch inspired them.

    (Please don’t go into a political discussion. Just don’t. This is game Theory. Stick to red pill and game.)

    What Rodney King tried to say: “Can’t we all just get along.” Was better said by Mike Pence as

    “what unites us far exceeds anything that sets us apart.”

    Same for the manosphere:

    If we want to want to make the manosphere work, to make TRM more readable, then we don’t keep underscoring the places where we’re different–we underscore our shared masculine sexual strategy. Some are appalled by us focusing on our differences–The SJF vs. YaReally shit–

    (which is No Big Deal, though, it’s just discussion/debate). Do we want to be focusing on how different we are from one another and not the things that unite us?

    I’m willing to move in that direction. As long as I’m not wrong for my demographic, YaRally? Are you Game?

    We’re different.

    But each of us has skin in the Game and that fact is palpable. Game is everything. It reigns supreme.

    Game breeds Antifragility.

    We do have shared strategies.This is not about debate (Sorry if I was debating for sport). It is about advancing our collective sexual strategy.

    In-group altruism (manosphere) and out-group malice (FI) for the win.

    I don’t want to apologize to our enemies (The FI and the FI social conventions) and Marriage (13% chance of “success”) and not stand with my friends: Game and YaReally.

  92. “I’m willing to move in that direction. As long as I’m not wrong for my demographic, YaRally?”

    I’m sorry, but there are no peace treaties on Thrones of Game. See the Redpill wedding episode.

  93. @Blaximus,

    “Pro Tip – Never do ANYTHING in life for some kind of social standing or reward. Society today is fickle as fuck. Men are getting the shaft by still following those dictates.”

    That’s the stuff. That ‘pro tip’ might be up towards the very top of red pill tenets.

    @Forge the sky,

    Great rundown of suburban houses, especially how everyone seemed to try gardening but it didn’t work out. You see that all the time. I imagine I would take a crack at it myself if I ever had the space, but the image of suburban yards with greenish tomatoes of all sizes is very easy to see.

    @YaReally,

    I think Black Dragon has an old post that carefully explains why his real divorce rate number is so high. It’s a tricky stat to pin down because it’s rolling. A couple married two hours ago is chalked up as a successful marriage, for example. Check in on them in a few weeks and see.

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