The Pareto Principle


An interesting side discussion was started in what proved to be a very popular post thread for The War Brides of Europe, and rather than let it disappear beneath a thousand-plus comments I thought I’d pick up on an old post I’ve had in my drafts for a while now.

One of the foundational ideas of Red Pill awareness from the earliest PUA years has been the 80/20 concept – 80% of women want to have sex and / or pair off with the top 20% of men. This has been a fast and loosely defined in terms of subjective sexual market value (SMV) between men and women and the ratio of disparity between those valuations.

In intersexual terms, this 80/20 rule finds its roots in the economic theory known as the Pareto Principle: “80% of your sales come from 20% of your clients.” While I’m not sure the principle is directly translatable, it mirror the general rule of Hypergamy and women’s innate drive to optimize their sexual strategy with who they perceive as the top tier 20% (Alphas) men are fucking the 80% lion’s share of women. Many a despondent Beta picks up on the principle and uses this to justify his failures to connect with women.

I’m of the opinion that the 80/20 rule is often abused to justify men’s failures or successes with women (more often failure), however the fundamental notion is both observable and easily verifiable in-field as well as statistically. It is however important to keep in mind that the 80/20 rule as it applies to Hypergamy is often bastardized in its inverse. The presumption goes that if 80% of women want to have sex with the top 20% of men it should necessarily mean that the top 20% of men are fucking 80% of women. Many a despondent Beta picking up on this dynamic will use this assumption to disqualify himself from Game or give up in futility. More on this later.

As a point of reference, it’s important to remember that Hypergamy doesn’t seek its own level with regard to SMV comparisons. Rather, Hypergamy is always seeking a socio-sexual pairing that is a ‘better than’ exchange for a woman’s own, realistically comparative, SMV. And as I’ve mentioned previously, Hypergamy is always pragmatic about establishing that ‘better than’ SMV exchange with men’s.

While the Red Pill’s expanded definition of Hypergamy encompasses far more than just ‘marrying up‘, the 80/20 sexual selection process is simple enough that even Aunt Giggles in her heyday could illustrate it:


As you might guess the fundaments of basic Hypergamy are easy to understand, so the tendency is to oversimplify the complexities that really define Hypergamy and how the 80/20 basics play out. And lastly, it’s important to bear in mind the dual nature of women’s Hypergamous filtering, impulses and attendant emotional investments – the 80/20 dynamic applies to both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of Hypergamy, however the characteristics that would optimize the former tend to come at the expense of the latter (and vice versa).

All that said, the 80/20 principle is fairly simple; a majority of women across the broadest SMV spectrum (80%) will always want for a ‘better than’ pairing (both sexual and provisional) than their own comparative SMV.

If the underlying mechanics of Hypergamy-inspired desire were only about a 1 or 2 step difference in SMV the distribution ratio wouldn’t be 80/20. As sophomoric as it is the above graph is relatively accurate: an SMV 3 woman is desirous of an SMV 8 or above man as representative of a Hypergamously optimal pairing (sex and/or provisioning).

For the 80/20 rule to hold true we’re looking at a comparative difference of 5 steps in SMV. Now, granted, this is on the extreme end of the spectrum, and it should also be noted that SMV is also a question of context and based on a woman’s ‘filtering’ perception of a man’s SMV being legitimate. However, this doesn’t alter the ‘better than’ merited pragmatism of Hypergamy.

Whether or not a woman is actually capable of this optimization isn’t relative to understanding the principle. Indeed, with the expansion of instant communication, social emphasis of women’s empowerment and esteem, and the influence social media exercises over the female ego, an SMV 3 woman of today might likely believe she is in fact deserving of a man 5 steps above her own (a good example). But for purposes of understanding how the Pareto principle applies to intersexual dynamics we must focus on the latent purposes for it to exist.

Common Errors

The easiest (or most convenient) mistake to make about this dynamic is to presume that the consolidation of Hypergamy (locking down a man 5 to 1 steps higher in SMV in monogamy) defines the 80/20 rule. Remember, this principle is about desire and women’s expected (entitled?) satisfaction of it, not the actual consolidation (LTR) of that Hypergamous ideal.

In the prior thread the conversation centered on the mistaken idea that the Pareto Principle is not universal or is only observed in some systems, but not in human sexuality. To which I’d argue that in no other system is this principle more evident than intersexual dynamics – and not just among humans but countless other species. It’s unflattering to the disguise in which the Feminine Imperative would put it in, but, whether realizable or not, the 80/20 rule practically defines female desire.

The second mistake it to presume the inverse: that 20% of men actually get 80% of women. Usually this gets trotted out as an equal-for-equal argument that presumes, again, that desire should necessarily translate into consolidation. Betas and lower SMV men do get laid and pair off with women for any number of reasons, but the principle isn’t about who’s actually fucking who. Rather, it’s about who has more access to sexually available women based on their SMV valuation. Nice Guys may finish last, but they do finish eventually – whether they finish ‘well’ is a thought for another post.

A third common mistake, made mostly by women, presumes the goal-state outcome of intersexual dynamics should be to arrive at a monogamous state. This is the consolidation of a female sexual strategy, and because we live in a feminine-primary social order, that committed, monogamous end to women’s sexual strategy is perceived as the socially “correct” goal. At no point is men’s imperative interests (sexual or life-rewarding) a priority, if it’s considered at all, in the Hypergamous equation. In the absence (or disregard) of men’s conflicting interests the Feminine Imperative substitutes what best fits its own interests as the socially ‘appropriate’ goals for men. Then it qualifies ‘manhood’ according to its proxy interests for men, so that any man not measuring up to them are not considered truly ‘men’ by its definition.

Women’s innate Hypergamous nature ensures a distributive model for desire that aligns with the Pareto Principle – even if the overall result of women settling for less than optimal Hypergamy appears to contradict it. Again, it’s important to remember that women’s Hypergamous desires are often not reflected by the outcome of those desires.

Want is not have

The concept that a woman’s Hypergamous imperative wouldn’t be a mutual goal between the sexes is an alien thought to most women.  Much in the same way that men idealistically want to believe women mutually share their concept of love for love’s sake (and free from the conditions of their Burden of Performance), women are mistaken in believing men’s sexual strategy is synonymous with the female strategy and shares a mutual end. By way of feminine solipsism and a social order that only considers women’s imperatives as legitimate, collective feminine social consciousness rarely gives men’s imperatives an afterthought – and then only when they become problematic to the Feminine Imperative.

Women subconsciously reinforce the feminine-correct goal state of LTR monogamy by a continuous, autonomous, expectation of its fulfillment – even when that fulfillment creates cognitive dissonance with their short term vs. long term sexual strategy. It’s part of women’s Hypergamous firmware to do so because it ensures (or tries to) their subconscious need for parental investment and long term security / provisioning.

What women necessarily must disregard is that their own sexual strategy choices are determined by the want to pair with a mate who exceeds her own SMV. Thus, the Pareto principle applies.

In Open Hypergamy I made mention that there is a social transitioning taking place among women where revealing the uglier side of Hypergamy is becoming more acceptable. The degree of comfort with which women have in revealing the machinations of Hypergamy is proportional to their capacity to play the 80/20 game well enough to consolidate on a 20th percentile man (or his closest approximation). For women still uncomfortable with openly embracing the uglier side of Hypergamy concealing the truth about the 80/20 becomes a practical priority. You will find in the future that many of the conflicts you read between Strong Independent Women® of differing social or moral perspectives will be based in their degree of comfort in openly relating the machinations of Hypergamy.

Women for whom keeping the 80/20 rule concealed from men’s popular consciousness (women with less capacity to compete intrasexually) can ill afford to have men aware of their own SMV and how it affects their long term sexual strategy. High value Red Pill aware men have the leisure to exploit Hypergamy and low value Red Pill men aware of their Hypergamous role risk denying women of the resources to provision them in the long term.

The Male Side of the Principle

Way back in the Peak Hypergamy post Hollenhund got me thinking about how the Hypergamous  aspect of the Pareto Principle can become men’s primary source of frustration and apathy:

I have to COMPLETELY OVERCOME all my handicaps to the point where I am BETTER than 80% of men at least.

I have to have my shit together better than the vast majority of men. I’m having a hard enough time just getting to be AVERAGE, but what I need to do in order to have any kind of sex life and get ANY of my sexual needs met AT ALL is be better than the vast majority of guys out there.

So, in other words, you’ll end up killing yourself anyway, but you’ll do it the slow way, by making sure you’ll end up an exhausted wretch with an ulcer, high blood pressure and similar health problems? Because that’s what you’re basically saying there.

I tend to think of how men confront the challenge of their performance burden is a parallel to their understanding of the 80/20 rule. On some level of consciousness men either possess some evolved instinct for it, or they develop some learned understanding of their own role in relation to how the 80/20 dynamic applies to them.

I think much of what frustrates men about assessing their own SMV in a Blue Pill mindset comes from an instinctual understanding of the 80/20 rule and reconciling it with what they’re being socialized to believe women ought to evaluate them for. Before any Game, before any Red Pill awareness, men’s first deductive impression is to classify themselves into SMV respective “leagues“, and women who would or wouldn’t be sexually accessible according to those leagues.

Ironically, even men’s Blue Pill league evaluations fail to account for women’s 1-5 SMV step over evaluation of their own SMV. The equalist agenda teaches men that their leagues should be based on a like-for-like parallel, when Hypergamy really demands men’s SMV be well above that of women.

This of course gets distorted once men begin to become Red Pill aware and over-exaggerate the abstract concept of Alpha and how it applies to themselves. In a way they fall victim to believing they must become an Alpha parody in order to measure up to women’s apex fallacy impression of a top 20% man.

Needless to say Red Pill awareness and applied Game will reveal the truth about the 80/20 rule. Initially it seems like a horribly unjust set of conditions for an ‘average’ man, but the rule is still based on the fundamental biological and psychological underpinnings of Hypergamy, and therefore open to exploits for a Red Pill aware man.

Quality Assurances


In the above example (h/t Young Patriarch) we can see the comparison between a naturalistic, Hypergamous socio-sexual order contrasted with an idealized socio-sexual structure. The Sexual Freedom model mirrors the 80/20 rule, while the Regulated model is representative of an idealized structure designed with the intent to evenly justify pairings according to a distributive monogamy.

As I mentioned earlier, men have an instinctual understanding about how the 80/20 Pareto Principle applies to women’s Hypergamy. And while Game is a modern contingency for it I would argue that the cross-culture concept of a monogamous marriage between men and women was a broader contingency designed not just to counter women’s Pareto-centered sexual strategy, but to ensure a greater majority of (lesser SMV) men had the opportunity to pass on their genetic heritage.

I could point out that the Regulated model above is very representative of an egalitarian model for monogamy based again on the like-for-like presumption, but Hypergamy being what it naturally is will always confound that ideal. However, I have to also point out that the Regulated ideal has always been a convenient selling tool to keep both men and women ignorant of the uglier, visceral nature of the Hypergamous sexual marketplace.

Marriage as a social adaptation serves (or served) as a negotiated buffer against Hypergamy, but it also serves as a perceived buffer against men’s Burden of Performance that would otherwise necessitate the constant super-achievement that Hollenhund describes above. As a social dynamic marriage was a Beta breeding insurance policy that conveniently enough took root about the time human beings began to adopt a largely agrarian lifestyle.

Today equalism and the fantasy of an idealized, mutually beneficial monogamy based on the Old Set of Books is little more than a contingent workaround for the 80/20 rule reality. As this idealism decays and is replaced by either Red Pill awareness or men learning the harsh realities of modern marriage liability the more we will see a shift away from the Regulated model in favor of a now openly Hypergamous model.

Recently NY Mag had yet another feminist triumphalism article in the same vein as the Atlantic’s End of Men article (apparently 6 years is the period in which the femosphere believes popular awareness of its bullshit memes end). However there was this one salient point that illustrates this shift in monogamy:

In 2009, the proportion of American women who were married dropped below 50 percent. In other words, for the first time in American history, single women (including those who were never married, widowed, divorced, or separated) outnumbered married women. Perhaps even more strikingly, the number of adults younger than 34 who had never married was up to 46 percent, rising 12 percentage points in less than a decade. For women under 30, the likelihood of being married has become astonishingly small: Today, only around 20 percent of Americans are wed by age 29, compared to the nearly 60 percent in 1960.

In the old order of monogamy the mutually beneficial exchange centered on quality assurances, either via polygamy (sexual assurances) or monogamy (provisonal assurances) in a Beta context. These assurances, having been more or less compensated for by men’s willing or unwilling assistance via social and legislative means, are no longer an incentive for women to marry or commit to a long term monogamy, and this is evidenced in almost a decade of statistics that show this decline.

A Wife for Every Beta

In Christian Dread I made mention of Nick Krausers’ appearance on London Real. For a bit more elaboration on this principle cue the video to 5:00 and watch until about 8:33.

A wife for every Beta is the old order negotiated social contract function of committed monogamy. In a state of nature where 80% of men can never be assured of a genetic legacy, most men have no incentive to participate in an organized society. What the Regulated model of sexuality does (albeit inefficiently) is gives Beta males the incentive to cooperate in larger society by establishing monogamy as the predominant social order. And then, as Krauser mentions these societies tend to outperform those based on a Hypergamous, naturalistic socio-sexual structure.

As mentioned this arrangement was based on an exchange of long term security for women for assurances of sexual access and ultimately a genetic legacy. Essentially it was a negotiated compromise of the desire for the Alpha Fucks aspect of Hypergamy for the assurances of a long term Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy. By today’s socio-sexual standard this old order arrangement is supplanted with the relatively assured guarantee of satisfying both aspects of Hypergamy at different phases of a woman’s maturity in life. Thus we see the Epiphany Phase, Alpha Widowhood and every variety of schema I outline in Preventive Medicine.

The new, post-sexual revolution order is a model ostensibly based on ‘sexual freedom’, but what this really represents is a return to that naturalistic sexual order based on pre-agrarian, evolutionarily incentivized Hypergamy. We revert back to an open acceptance of the 80/20 realities that, if we’re honest, always informed even a Regulated socio-sexual model of monogamy.

In the new era of Open Hypergamy, women’s only necessitated compromise of her sexual strategy depends on her exaggerated self-impression of her SMV measured against her capacity to lock down an optimal male. This also explains the endless push to create self-confident, self-important ‘independent’ women. Women’s naturalistic predilection for the 80/20 Pareto Principle of sexual selection virtually assures their long term isolation – thus the need for a self-created impression of women’s self-sufficiency.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

602 comments on “The Pareto Principle

  1. @scribblerg
    “@Sun – Do you remember an FR from me a couple of months ago when out with my wing? I worked this 20 yr old hottie waitress for my wing and even number closed for him? Fyi, just as Ya predicted, my wing fucked it up. He didn’t understand she just wanted to fuck, lol…”

    Also one of the reasons I stress that you have to be out actively trying to fuck these girls (which isn’t to discount what Rollo says but like, frontline reports hold weight over casual observation is all), is because if you just didn’t talk to that guy again and that guy didn’t bother pursuing that girl past that number, both of you would have left that interaction thinking “this guy will definitely fuck her” and write a blog report of how your buddy was a pimp who totally nailed this girl and if he was good looking you could be like it’s because he has looks etc

    Just like the guy who bathes in validation from hot girls at the bar but isn’t actually trying to stick his dick in them will never have to deal with cockblocks, interrupts, 180 mood shifts during state-breaks in venue changes, re-stoking attraction on Day2s, getting girls to not flake on them in this ADD culture, dealing with orbiters and AMOGs who are trying to fuck the girls not just chat with them, LMR, ASD, Buyer’s Remorse, etc

    The guy leaving half an hour before last call because he has poon at home isn’t seeing that that good-looking guy with the girl climbing all over him gets cockblocked or drops the ball or gets a flakey number or does something that pisses the girl off or gets AMOGed or a million other things. But he goes home and says “I saw this good-looking guy with a girl on him, so looks are important with visceral bla bla” when that guy might not even BE getting laid (Forever Aloner’s on the MISC, for every guy openly an FA chode there are a hundred who just don’t have an account on there but are living that same frustrating lack of success life) or are banging HB6s and dissatisfied and don’t know how to get the hotter girls because they didn’t study game.

    But when you’re pushing to the close, actual P in V with a young hottie, on the regular, you’re seeing WAY more of the dynamics going on that give you a more accurate view of how important external shit is infield.

    Like I say, game is the toolbox, looks are just another tool inside that box just like social proof, preselection, dominance, laser eye-contact, etc…except that those things are way easier/faster to achieve with zero investment besides going out and talking to girls, than getting a 6-pack or getting jacked, that’s all lol

    And this is why FRs are important. Enough FRs from the 40+yo guys here about how they’re getting attraction and managing to bang hot young girls makes it harder for future 40+yo guys to play the victim card and say it’s impossible for them and you younger guys don’t understand bla bla bla limiting belief bullshit. Every ugly guy’s FR, like every video Tyler puts up with girls all over him and going home with him for threesomes and shit stunts in the face of all the ugly guys crying about how looks matter and they’re disadvantaged because they didn’t win the genetic lottery etc It’s important to collect REAL evidence instead of armchair theory like reading some Harvard study or a book by some scientist guy who tells you to mirror her pheromones because he read some other science nerd’s book on the subject and neither of them get laid by anyone but their fat wives lol

    That’s WHY I’m such an asshole about this looks stuff and won’t let it go. Because my buddies and I and the RSD guys etc are out there every weekend as average dudes doing stuff that other guys tell us we shouldn’t be able to do.

    Skip to 2:30 for the good part but watch this whole clip and the infield spread throughout it to see WHY that girl chooses him over the taller better looking better dressed guy (like his preselection at the start)…even that guy can’t comprehend what happened when she turns around to come back to Valentino. Would ANYONE who thinks looks matter predict that happening? But it’s not a big surprise when you understand what Valentino is doing in terms of his subcomms despite his looks compared to the other guy who’s just running gay passive game (also note how she absolves herself of responsibility even in her body langauge, like she’s hands behind her back as if she just “fell” back toward him and she talks about him wanting to show her pictures etc like 100% trying to get around her own ASD and judgement from the guy lol it’s all hindbrain instinct…Skip to 3:50 for the other guy realizing he’s done and fucking off and Valentino making out with her):

    I’m not even some fucking magic wizard banging harems of 10s left and right every night out there lol (now if I was going out more than I am right now (focused on work atm) and lived in a city like Vegas VS a normal big city and focused more on social circle game it’d be no problem to build a harem of 10s, and my long-term plans involve putting myself in that kind of situation before I’m 40 thus my working hard right now) But I’m doing shit out there that people who meet me don’t understand and have to try to rationalize to fit into their warped understanding of the world. Like a guy from a small town will tell me “oh it’s your big city vibe” and a guy from a big city will tell me “oh it’s your small town vibe”. They’ll just pick whatever they don’t have and rationalize what they see me doing away so they don’t have to think about it and their world continues to make sense to them.

    Field is king! Get out there tonight. You can do all of this shit.

  2. ” It’s why they just numb themselves with Netflix and videogames and porn and fast food and booze and drugs etc”

    dangerous to lump “drugs” in with that rough group. people who have little experience with mind altering tend to think of “drugs” as a kind of homogeneous “bad” when there are huge differences among them, especially in strains of cannabis because a well bred lovingly tended perfectly ripened sativa isn’t “weed” anymore than a 4 and a 10 are both hotties just because they both have pussies

    I’d actually pay to see infield of the Rsd crew running their game on Lsd. lol “internals”. to the conventional wisdom of “I don’t trust a man who can’t trust himself with a drink” and “don’t trust anyone over thirty” I’d add “don’t trust anyone who never smoked a joint”.

    there is something deeply human about altering consciousness with plant defense substances and all the people I’ve known who “just said no” were shady and or weird as fuck.

    don’t let the DARE crowd scare you, guys. mind altering is good for you. NFG is easy when your ego has been obliterated by a heavy trip or two or three. you’ll look at that hb9 and realize there are about a million things in the world more interesting than fucking her while simultaneously knowing that the only thing in the world that really matters is fucking her. embracing contradiction is freedom

    there is a very good reason cannabis is federal schedule I while “legal” opiates are handed out by “doctors” as fast as they can produce them.

    ripe trichomes lead to revolutionary thinking while opiates lead to addiction and death

    while hitting bottom isn’t a weekend seminar, neither is freeing your mind.

    “the younger guy doesn’t have reference experiences of getting girls WITHOUT the gym time, so when he gets that dopamine rush of getting a girl his brain is like “all these factors must have been relevant to get her” and since society and the TRP forums etc are telling him it’s his lifting that’s doing it, he ends up 10 years down the road fully believing his looks are relevant.”

    hey, dads out there – this is why it’s important to make sure the young guys aren’t cock blocking themselves

    early pussy makes guys realize that it has nothing to do with money, muscles or maybachs. pussy is free and it flows to the masculine energy.

    the hottest youngest freshest girls in the world are giving their most valuable asset away for free to guys who have never picked up a weight, don’t have a nickel and can’t even drive. it’s fucking awesome.

  3. @scribblerg
    One last thing with that Valentino clip that again goes back to what I was saying. If Valentino HADN’T interrupted, that girl might’ve fucked the taller better looking guy with his gay passive game, because she’s a girl, she’s horny, he’s there, it might work out for him. That’s why I say ya looks are fine if no one interferes. But once Valentino steps in the girl gives no fucks about that dude anymore, and it’s not because Valentino is a Chad Thundercock stud lol

    But anyone who just saw the interaction BEFORE Valentino stepped in, including that other dude himself, would think “that guy will get the girl, looks matter” But competing in the field reveals reality.

    “I’d actually pay to see infield of the Rsd crew running their game on Lsd.”

    Here’s the Simple Pickup guys with pot brownies:

    Here’s shrooms, it doesn’t go well lol:

    I think RSDJeffy smokes weed ’cause he’s in San Francisco. But I doubt he tries to run a bootcamp high, that would be a dick move to the student paying for his coaching.

    “to the conventional wisdom of “I don’t trust a man who can’t trust himself with a drink” and “don’t trust anyone over thirty” I’d add “don’t trust anyone who never smoked a joint”. ”

    lol I knew one of you “you can’t understand the world until you’ve done drugs, you just don’t get it man, I don’t trust a guy who doesn’t have an interest in whatever thing I think is cool” guys would come out of the woodwork the second I typed the word “drugs”, I literally almost put a disclaimer about weed. Pretty much every guy I know who does whatever type of drug says the same shit about coke and MDMA Molly booze coffee/caffiene fast food etc etc Most of them are insecure about those guys judging them for partaking and a lot of the time it’s because they can’t comprehend someone having fun and enjoying life without that stuff.

    Personally I don’t care, do whatever you want, but don’t use it as a crutch (where you can only be “free” when you’re high/drunk) and don’t end up spending your Saturday night high in a basement with a bunch of guys who don’t get pussy using it as a buffer to not go handle your shit and build your self-confidence without needing crutches.

  4. Ya your on fire, the internal vs external validation is the business. Thanks for your honesty Scribs, it’s worth it.

    “There’s something primal about it, like your brain instinctively knows that failing with women is something to fear and often doesn’t want to confront the cold harsh truths about how you really view yourself and your worth”

    My problem is allowing some ditzy little cunt to be the arbiter of my self worth, ceding that power to the other is terrifying, so I shield myself from that pain by not playing. I hate them for having that power.

    Unlike Odysseus I sailed off to a deserted Island, except it’s got the net, cigarettes and cheap booze.

    In my twisted world view I’m rejecting them but the reality is I’m hiding from, once again (drum roll)…….burden of performance.

  5. @ Johny
    Ya I have spent a lot of time alone up in the attic.And also am prone to wade to deep in bitter creek,to the point of drowning.It’s like being mad at someone and hitting myself in the head w/ a hammer. Realizing the root of anger is my own unmet expectations has helped and getting my expectations in line w/ reality RP aware helps. This shouldn’t be limiting but more a realization the sky’s the limit. Have mainly followed my own lead forever,and hit many mountains to climb.So the question becomes is it a challenge or an opportunity?
    The best way to own mental point of origin,first do no harm,second do what you want when you want.when reflecting don’t forget to include the successes and strength of the past.Anyone can fuck shit up it’s how they fix it that’s the real value.
    Tune in later for more peter pan advice,I still have some I’m not using.

  6. @ YaReally Imakeyboardjockey keyboarded, 😉

    Which is why I’m such a fucking asshole to everyone about going out and calling everyone who doesn’t go out keyboard jockeys theorizing on bullshit they don’t understand lol You HAVE to go out. Regularly. And you have to be trying to put your dick into young hotties. You can’t just observe from the sidelines or theorize. You have to be on the frontlines pushing your comfort zones.

    Single men need to be on pussy patrol. Married men need to be flirting early and often, not necessarily wetting their wicks with some strange snail trail.

    You married men can cut the space, kino, flirt, maybe do a brief makeout if your ethics permit, get hugs, kisses on the cheek, then evacuate back to the missus. Push your comfort zones, yet keep to your ethical boundaries and own your shit.

    I’m….heading out to the country bar to push my comfort zones. Last night was awesome for me, but I can do better.

    Thanks for the pep talk, YaReally

    @ SJF

    You were correct about talking to other men. Last night I had a wing for the first time. It was very cool for both of us. And the interaction here is awesome.

  7. The being out in the field to PUA’s is the being infield (in the home and socializing) to those in an LTR. Yareally is right for single males go outy. For those of us married go inny.

    And forcing yourself beyond automatic. Beyond your comfort zone.

    Don’t be afraid of plateaus. They just mean you learned it. But then move on.

    Now keep in mind your resources available. If you are running on empty, stick in the plateau stage. This is normal. You need fuel in order to run. Don’t be afraid to plateau and get your provisions right for the next ascent. If you are not feeling comfortable or have enough energy, don’t force the ascent onto Mt. Everest or you might run out of provisions or die in a crevasse.

    For example if ScribblerG has Seasonal Affective Disorder, relax, regain energy, regroup and then make the next ascent. Don’t feel lack of agency. You have lots of agency, you just need to employ it when you have positive mindset, MPO, DHV, Social proof and a positive energy.

    But if you are relaxing in comfort, in concert what YaReally was saying:

    Know Your Real Edge and Don’t Fake it

    It is honorable for a man to admit his fears, resistance, and edge of practice. It is simply true that each man has his limit, his capacity for growth, and his destiny. But it is dishonorable for him to lie to himself or others about his real place. He shouldn’t pretend he is more enlightened than he is—nor should he stop short of his actual edge. The more a man is playing his real edge, the more valuable he is as good company for other men, the more he can be trusted to be authentic and fully pre- sent. Where a man’s edge is located is less important than whether he is actually living his edge in truth, rather than being lazy or deluded. (Deida)

    Lean Just Beyond Your Edge

    In any given moment, a man’s growth is optimized if he leans just beyond his edge, his capacity, his fear. He should not be too lazy, happily stagnating in the zone of security and comfort. Nor should he push far beyond his edge, stressing himself unnecessarily, unable to metabolize his experience. He should lean just slightly beyond the edge of fear and discomfort. Constantly. In everything he does. (Same author)

    The last couple days I started a new ascent. I have been automatic and doing well for a while. My last holiday season Nov. through Dec was the best I have had in 20 years re: my performance as a husband and father and brother and son to the family. I still hated it but I performed well.

    My performance as a partner to my wife is light years ahead over the last 2-3 years and it is very good. I came back from the invisible in light of the FI and now have agency. A restful plateau over the last 3 months has me restless to make the next ascent.

    It has been a long time–6 months that I was alerted to be more playful and flirty by a couple commenters here behind the scenes (email). It wasn’t until I read BluePillProfessors book that I found a missing link. Things are going well and I’m getting laid with desire sex, but I am miss-performing in a major way.

    That happens to be kino. Touching the wife. It just never was in the routine. And I have a huge void there, which I will be remedy-ing. It will be now after I find out how to be an incompetent newbie at incorporating it into the routine of daily life. It is surprising how Spergy a guy can truly be. Me. Just non emotional outwardly. (I’m not truly spergy but I can have those traits by design. Unemotional and not into “feelings” myself, but with learning game understand and can generate feelings on demand. I reveled in being clinical in my profession and learning how to turn off the emotional investment as an autopsy assistant on the weekends back in the 80’s–best job ever.)

    I’m socially adept and can go out an have fun as an introvert as long as I have time to be alone and recharge my batteries. (Yes I also know this is crutch that I have, but it works for me. H/t to Andy to pointing out this in the YaReally archives).

    I went to the local mall for the first time in like 20 years today with my wife. Lol. Victoria’s Secret and Teavanna. And it was no big deal. Strange (mall rat ugly people and all), good and I held fine frame, but nonetheless No Big Deal. And my wife was supremely consumerist, no surprise.

    So. Don’t be afraid to be comfortable and plateau. But don’t be too comfortable and plateau if you have resources for the next ascent up the mountain.

    Game is fungible. Same for all relationship classifications. Infield with married man is in your home an socializing with your wife with other men an women or with drunk teenager videos on the wall in bikinis in the Pink/Victoria’s Secret Store.

    Push it if you have the resources.

  8. The Aspeegamer is one of the Chateau cult members who ran ya really off that site.

    Now this clown is up in here trying to ride YRs dick?

    Somebody please slap the shit out this punk if you see him on the street.

  9. @ASDgamer

    “You were correct about talking to other men.”

    Interacting with other men, having them as guy friends, enjoying their criticism (I have to invite it, they rarely give it) is the way of men. It is a meritocracy that our brains are hardwired for before the noise occurred in the last couple hundred years. Embrace it and incorporate it.

    “Last night I had a wing for the first time. It was very cool for both of us.”
    YGBSM. Wings are good in Game. Chose wisely and treat kindly.

    “And the interaction here is awesome.”

    I assume you mean on the comments section of The Rational Male.

  10. I watched Kingsman: The Secret Service tonight. Me for the second time and my wife for the first.

    A quote by one of the main characters that was emblematic of Blaximus being out of the crab barrel and a thousand miles away from that barrel:

    “There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway

    Blaximus posts gold about the masculine way of doing and being. For a long time here.


    Asdgamer will stand on his meritorious comments here or not. The past is not prologue. Spergs are people too. And this blog is about red pill awareness and game. Descriptive by Rollo and prescriptive by commenters when appropriate.

    A ScribblerG Maxim is enough to judge commenters here:

    “To me, the only issue is whether a comment is adding value and moving the dialog along in interesting ways. The ‘burden’ is to be engaging.”

    Not sure why he used airquotes around burden though.

  11. @Emily,

    you said;

    “I should call out someone when he’s clearly living in a bullshit fantasy where he is a 40/50 yo having sex with 50 hot 19 year olds.”

    No passport, eh?

  12. In that vein, the obverse is not making the target too comfortable.

    Not making the seducee too comfortable, so as she plateaus into comfort an reliability and automaticity. I a STR or LTR make her feel anxiety. like it is another steep ascent up the mountain in the attraction/comfort/seducing. Don’t let her plateau and feel comfort. Don’t let her be equalist. egalitarian and non polar with the masculine. Polarity with masculine/feminine is the driver of desire. So drive it.

    Someone said dont be ——-, be \/\/\/\//\. Ride her on the rollercoaster. Allow anxiety, indignation and an emotional ride.

    But I’m being basic. Someitmes we didn’t get he memos early on. And basics are a foundation. Build a foundation and drive you purpose home.


  13. where I am BETTER than 80% of men at least

    This is clearly false and I’m the living proof of it – women don’t want “better” they want the man other women want, and society drills in their heads that they should want. This is why I have chosen the areas of my hobbies – while my job gives me the wherewithal to do what I want, It is my hobbies that bring the women I enjoy to me in largest concentrations. It’s just a numbers game – I’ll bring 10 hot women, 50 okay women, and more women into a setting where they want us as we are the goal, and those 10 hot ones will go along with all of the others, as women are “herd” animals – you are the predator, so pick the one you will feast on tonight. But the women always choose – you just set the game up to favor you. Simple, easy, and fun… I’ve been living like that for the last 40+ years – the only goal I still have in life is my “100 years of sex” – actually 10 decades if the truth be known – to have sex with women over a century – that is what starting early will get you – I’m at the 90% mark – all that is left is to nail a sweet-thing born in 2010 – still a bit young at the moment, but that is what makes the game fun – every year they get a year closer to hanging out their “open for business” shingle… I have been known to cut corners by traveling to various places with early age-of-consent laws – but really, you only have to worry if you don’t leave the woman with a smile and a secret…

  14. I’ve been lurking in the shadows for what seems like an eternity, though it’s more like 12-18 months now.
    Seems I’ve finally worked up the courage to post.
    You guys inspire the fuck outta me.
    Just turned 36, actual p in v N=5. Married at 19. Super dom to the wife, never really fell in love with her. Though i did care about her and stepped into the provider roll i was groomed for. Have 3 kids with her. I got fat as fuck. Like 365 lbs… She refused to take care of herself or step up and be the housewife she claimed she always wanted to be. Finally left her when i realized i could do better; got tired of turning down all the side pussy that was getting thrown at me. Especially after dropping 125 pounds of blubber.
    Funny thing, i got single then couldn’t get laid. 28 and clueless. What in the ever loving fuck. Cuz now i wanted it, needed it. Dad is drafthorse beta, no help there. Mom left him after 27 years of him giving her everything she ever wanted. Ugh.
    So i went through the grief of splitting up my family and started working on myself. Started working out, lost more weight. Drinking, drugs. Said fuck it, I’ll know when it’s right.
    Almost a year of fucking the ex once a month til i end up in a relationship. Fell hard. It was amazing. I beta out. Drop my social circle. She cheats. Im wrecked. Leave for 3 months. We make up. I find the ‘sphere. I use game to take control again… And drive it straight into the ground. Break up make up too many times to count. Dumped her for the last time back in Oct. After she told me i need to respect her for her career. Wtfever. Told her her “job does nothing for me, doesnt pay my bills, doesn’t make my dick hard. Go find someone else to repect what you do for your company.” i had cheated on her 3 days before. She knew i was already one foot out the door. Feelings are fading but i know there’s still lingering oneitis. She still pings, has tried to fck with the woman im seeing now. She’s still mad ha.
    50/50 custody of my kids and 40 hours of physically demanding work puts a damper on sarging in field though i am looking forward to the summer. Hopefully I’ll find a wing to help keep me motivated.
    Rollo, your work has been such an eye opener. Explaining to a goddamn T why things have gone the way they have for me and so many of my friends and relatives. Im still a little pissed that it didnt click for me sooner, cuz i knew alot of it on an instinctual level but never connected the dots.
    Thank you.
    Yareally, scribblerg, blaximus, sjf, andy, fleezer, Dutch, so many others: it really helps to put things into perspective reading your insights and experiences.
    I probably spend too much time reading here lol. But thanks to you i push myself to game everyone. Improving myself FOR myself, not so i can find the one, so i can BE the one. It hasn’t been easy. I’ve been wary of being open to all but my closest friends for so long it just feels odd to go outside my comfort zone and intentionally connect with people. But i think im starting to enjoy it… I will post a FR after i go out next weekend. Looking forward to it, actually. I wanna get better.

  15. @culum @forge @anon @yareally @any other FR guys

    Glad I wrote up the FR on the 8 south american girl, since I ran into a south american girl at work today that it helped me out with.

    There’s a vendor where I work who’s a 7. She works there on Saturdays maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks. I met her once before and she seemed to like me. Today an employee complained about the 7, that she took some of her things without asking. In hindsight, that seems somewhat unlikely, as the 7 is very good at what she does and is very friendly. But whatever. The bitchy employee wanted to know who she worked for so she could complain. OF COURSE she couldn’t just go TALK to the 7 and nicely tell her to ask next time, lol. No, she has to try and get her fired.

    I’m sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the bitchy girl is ugly and the 7 is exotic and sexy.

    Fucking girls make me laugh.

    Anyway, my boss half seriously told me to go figure out where she worked since “She likes you.” So I went to go talk to the 7. I checked up on her and saw how she was doing. She was happy to talk to me. I asked who she worked for and she told me. As I started to leave, she asked my name.

    I wear a nametag, lol. So I just kind of stared at her, and she said “Oh, right, Hank. I see your tag now.” She gave me her name, but said it was her nickname. She said her real name was too hard to pronounce. She’s from Brazil. Then she asked if I lived in town. At this point customers showed up so I just said “I kind of live all over” and left as she turned her attention to the customers.

    After maybe 45 minutes I had another chance to go talk to her. Walked by her and turned to talk to her, so I was facing away from her. I did a great job with my body language.

    “You’re not from Brazil.”


    “You’re not from Brazil. I know people from Brazil, and they aren’t anything like you.”

    “How am I different?”

    “You’re accent is all wrong.”

    “Well that’s because I am from the northern part of Brazil. Brazil is huge so there are lots of different accents. Like how someone from Boston sounds different from someone from Texas. I was talking to a guy that works here and he is from Brazil too, but the southern part, and he was talking about how our accents are different. . .”

    “Yeah. Because you aren’t from Brazil. You’re Mexican aren’t you? You just say you’re from Brazil so you can seem all exotic. But you’re really a Mexican”

    “No, I am from Brazil. Next time I will bring my passport and you can see I am from Brazil.”

    “I don’t believe you.”

    And I walked away from her doing that Alfie smirk, where you hold the eye contact as long as you can while you turn away. Very proud of that. My body language was dead on and it made me very happy. The whole time the 7’s eyes were lit up.

    Was slammed after that, so couldn’t talk to the 7. Knew I was good for a number close at that point. Passed her on the way to the back, and she said “Im getting ready to leave soon.” I was in a hurry, and customers were around, so I couldn’t do anything then. She left before things calmed down.

    I’m in A3 now, so if she shows up again I should be able to get her number fast. Just find something about her (probably food, if she can cook, because I legit love spanish food) that can win me over and use that transition into getting her number. We’ve both been kind of frustrated from the EXTREMELY short time we have to talk, so it makes perfect sense to get her number

    “Hey, I’d love to talk more about your brazilian cusine, but its too busy now. Why don’t we meet sometime when we aren’t working. Your number is 666. . .”

    And just do the thing where you whip out your phone and stare at her expectantly to prompt her to give out her number.

    Yes I know about the whole “Don’t shit where you eat”, but the 7 doesn’t actually work for my company, and she only works where I do for a few hours, on one day, once every two weeks or so. That said, I’ve still been been cautious, but I think I have a great shot getting her number next time.

    Felt amazing after this just from TALKING with a girl that’s actually my type. Much better than when I had the two 5’s and the 6 giving me WAY more obvious IOI’s from my first FR. After talking with the 7 I was much more myself than I usually am and was constantly teasing and joking with my boss and the other customers. Made a huge difference.

    Unfortunately this all goes back to the problem I have with being motivated to go out and especially to game girls I am not attracted to. I just can’t do it. I can’t MAKE myself go through the motions. Whereas with the 7 it was just so natural and felt right to game her. Its actually EASIER to work on pretty girls I am into than average girls I’m not into. Even if the average girls are throwing themselves at me and the pretty one are acting shitty.

    Forge and Culum were thinking this whole “not my type thing” is a buffer, but it isn’t at all. I can’t tell you the DIFFERENCE it makes to be trying to logically convince myself to like a girl who isn’t my type, and then there’s days like today when I meet the 7 and I’m thinking “I hope noone notices my boner.” Lol. Its such a difference.

    If I had girls like her around reguarly, I would be out all the time. I could get blown out left and right, and I wouldn’t give a shit because fuck me there are actually pretty girls around.

    I don’t understand why you guys like white girls so much. They are so plain. To each his own I guess.

    I’m focusing instead on going to social clubs like improv, toastmasters, language etc. To get out and learn cool places to go. If you know of any other such clubs, that’ll help me out a lot.

    When I focus on game, I get depressed and don’t go out. What’s the point? No girls I like are around (except in rare instances), no places I like to go. But when I focus on other things, it works better. I reguarly have 30min to hour long conversations with people at work. I play a game where I see how long I can get people to stay and talk. I will actually POINT OUT their wife motioning them to come on so he knows its time to go. Then I bring up someother emotional topic and he’ll say “Oh yeah, back in Portugal we made our own wine all the time. . .” I wonder how many dudes I’ve made sleep on the couch, lol.

    I had a 7.5 milf stay about 1hr and a half talking to me, telling everyone what a great time she was having talking to me. Couldn’t game her since she lives in that area and is married, but its an awesome skill to have a good looking girl be so invested in you. Great DHV if you do it at a bar or club where other girls can see.

    My goal for now is to get in those social clubs to get into some social circles so I can use my strength of using jester method to befriend people, and 1 on 1 with girls (I’ve noticed that nearly all <8 girls give me IOIs if I talk to them alone). Once I can get some successes and get into a routine of going out and just having fun, then I won't be so outcome dependent and can push my boundaries into my weak areas (big sets, in venues I've never been, when I'm not in state)

  16. and that 666 was just a stand in for the area code, where you say the local area code to prompt her to finish her number. but i think actually saying 666 might be funny.

  17. @Ya – That was some powerful shit, thanks. Didn’t game tonight, my state was crap.

    @SJF – Yeah, SAD is in full swing now. Come on spring!

    @Johnnycome – I get it. But the question is what now? The past is prologue as SJF said above. What hits me hardest now is seeing how completely inept I am at being my own point of mental origin. I’m just habituated to thinking otherwise. I also am so hung up on my externals, holy shit.

  18. FR

    Was a decent night, hung out with the new friend again. Unfortunately the scenes we wound up at had slim pickings, but I pulled 3 numbers. One off the waitress we had at the first place (butterface, but holy SHIT her body was banging), one off a chick playing Cards Against Humanity with us at a bar with her boyfriend (yeah her interest was pretty obvious even with her boyfriend sitting on the other side of her trying to mate guard), and one off the chick my buddy invited to join us off Tinder. He felt like she wouldn’t put out, so I heard him giving up and made my move.

    She wants to go out dancing with me now because “he’s too white” and she had a great time grinding and dancing with me to music that was on at the bar. By the end of the night I had her standing next to me with my arm around her waist giggling at damn never every word out of my mouth.

    TL;DR: Pulled interest from a cute chick that my 6’2″ ex-pro basketballer wing couldn’t pull. Game > looks confirmed.

    My game sucks, but it’s better than it was I suppose. If I get the lay next time I see her I’ll be chuckling.

    Meanwhile, I’m traveling to Canada again next week but on the way back one of the stops they’re routing me through is Las Vegas. Buddy is going to be there as well and is thinking about staying there a couple days. If he does I might delay my flight back and try to run game with him there.

    So, any of you guys gonna be in Vegas next weekend? 😉

  19. @hank holiday – dude, great work again. It sounds like you’re really making progress which is the main thing.

    I did think you had a buffer issue, but with the additional details you’ve posted, it sounds more like you’re just a Thrill of the Hunt guy to an extreme level (I’m thrill of the hunt too, but (a) I still have some basic sexual needs; and (b) the thrill is in the process itself, although of course, better with a hotter girl).

    There’s nothing wrong with being as Thrill of the Hunt as you, but the thing is, it is gonna really limit your practice opportunities, short of moving to South America, if you literally cannot be bothered with anyone short of a small minority of girls.

    THat said, if that’s really who you are, then it’s really who you are. You shouldn’t practice something you hate – it should energize you (it’s not easy – it’s difficult in the same way that going to the gym regularly is hard – maintaining discipline etc, but when you get there the process is rewarding). And if it doesn’t, then yes, just focus on building social skills, expanding your circles and planning a move to an area with more Latina girls.

    And, you, know, bang someone so that you’re no longer a virgin because that’s quite a big deal to get over in your head.

  20. Isn’t that same teenage girl responding to what I call the “Sex in the City” promise too? A new future has been presented to women that wasn’t available 50 years ago. It looks like this:

    Ride the cock carousel.
    Get a career.
    Men and family aren’t necessary for happiness.
    Men will be abundant forever.

    And today what’s happening is the FI is trying to make sure fat and ugly girls can have all those goodies too. So it’s not just that the more traditional lifestyle is a PITA (pain in the ass for those not acronym savvy), it’s that they are being sold a vision of life that is more exciting, more sexy, more thrilling and enjoyable.

    They aren’t just rejecting the boring vision because it’s too much work, they are also running at the very high payoff life portrayed for them in the culture today. I also notice that both paths are open to women – they can do the traditional thing or the “Sex in the City” girl thing and the world applauds them.

    Practically speaking, they aren’t open. The traditional path is only open to two small segments of women: (A) daughters of the upper class, and (B) daughters of hardcore traditionalist families. (A) have high rates of marriage, and typically marry well-paid upper class men willing and able to finance the SAHM lifestyle of their wives if they opt for that. (B) belong to a tiny counterculture where it’s normal to live on some isolated farm in difficult conditions, raise many homeschooled children as SAHMs, and grow their own food, all under the authority of the husband. (That authority is only spiritual and cultural, not legal, of course, as Marriage 2.0 is still the law of the land.)

    With respect to the upper class, we have to keep two things in mind. First, the “hypergamy crunch” (H/T Novaseeker) is bound to hit them as well in the near future, as the lopsided sex ratio on colleges will continue to grow and get entrenched. Soon a considerable minority of upper class female college graduates will be left without potential husbands able and willing to satisfy their hypergamy (or hypergyny, if we want to be precise). Their lifestyle won’t be as stable as it is today. Second, while the SAHM lifestyle is culturally accepted in the upper class, it expects women to get a college education at minimum, and perform some sort of fancy job for a while before getting married. These women are expected to earn their “feminist merit badge” (again, H/T Novaseeker).

    The SAHM option is beyond the reach for the rest of women – i.e. the large majority of them. The necessary social and economic circumstances for it simply aren’t there. We know this, there’s no reason to go into details. So yes, society can encourage girls to ride the carousel, concentrate on their careers, see men as optional etc. This is happening now. But the reason is that there’s mostly no alternative. Again, nobody can honestly tell a teenage girl that she can safely count on some well-paid beta turning her into a SAHM. Because it’s not true, and everyone knows it.

  21. I won’t argue over the specifics above HH since I think you’re right to a degree (but not entirely…I know far too many women who actually pay to work when all the direct and indirect expenses are factored in, and I’m not speaking of rich people).
    Even assuming what you’re saying is perfectly true, there can be a big difference between a career and a job. The career is more the family killer (either preemptively or post hoc).

  22. SJF wrote:

    “And forcing yourself beyond automatic. Beyond your comfort zone.
    Don’t be afraid of plateaus. They just mean you learned it. But then move on.”

    I’ve been experiencing the plateau for the past few weeks. Some good moments here and there for learning, but basically coasting. After hitting TRM daily since September even my enthusiasm here waned. Not that the topics weren’t interesting or I wasn’t getting benefit, just felt like stepping away a bit. I’ve wondered a few times what has become of Cave Clown. It’s like when there is real need to figure something out important I would consume everything I could get my hands on. Read, take notes in my journal, internalize it and then work it. Then things got a bit muddy and my mojo fizzled.

    Gotten some great advice from some select individuals here, SJF has been great at sharing and offering materials for reference. My reading list continues to grow and it seems like I’m creating a small Library for a Rational Male.

    A few days ago someone wrote about not sharing your problems with others as 20% don’t care and 80% want you to have problems and misery. So I’ve cut back on that, often thinking that commiserating on TRM isn’t necessarily good. Then I read what Scribbler posts and think, fuck, get this shit off my chest.

    After an intense week earlier in this month of being a temporary emotional tampon for my LTR GF I had to step away from that as her family life and kids were more than I wanted to be subjected to. Creating that space and distance was needed, but now the after effects make me feel, and wonder about the long haul with this LTR. Need to find some balance so I can figure out “comfort tests” and how they are different than shit tests. The less crap I want to deal with creates good healthy space but also has me rationally wondering about the value of having a LTR if I don’t want to get enmeshed in her kid’s and ex’s baggage. As the weeks pass I want to have fewer and fewer conversations with her because so often it goes from “how was your day/work” into long rants or descriptions about crap that is just pointless. Hell, lately I hold the phone away from my ear and let her to on and on not listening too closely until I hear a question or her direct the conversation to us. It’s like can’t we just focus on us? All these long winded conversations about how fucked up her kids are and how her ex blah blah blah….killing me.

    It is obvious sex is the most satisfying part of our relationship, and that’s great. Fantastic sex as a matter of fact. Yes, perhaps I shouldn’t expect more. Keeping my own mental point of origin helps work through this. I guess I have to learn more about working the feelz and not creating too much emotional distance or at some point she will lean towards orbiters to fill that gap. Which is why in the past week I’ve also decided to push myself more to get out and went out three times, once solo and twice with one of my best friends.

    Bit of a FR: My solo venture this Friday had zero expectations and resulted in hanging at a nice beer joint chilling, joined a few conversations and was just starting to amog the guys who were in a discussions with two older women about politics and Trump, Sanders etc… One of the 50-year-olds was attractive had earlier been giving me IOIs, was enamored with Trump so it was easy pickings to work this conversation. Both women immediately shifted their attention to me.

    Just as I ramped up and was amoging, a divorced woman I’ve known for years arrived and approached so I shifted attention to the more attractive option. She is late 40’s and a behavioral psychiatrist. We spent the rest of the evening together talking, sharing pix of our daughter’s (we previously had a connection from an activity both kids were involved with) talking travel etc…I worked some kino and we found a small intimate neo-speakeasy to continue. More kino and then I ramped up the conversation around sex. Lots of arousal for both of us. This woman is beautiful, intelligent, speaks several languages and travels the world. She put on some weight from when I knew her years ago but is still very attractive. We stepped outside for a smoke and in an alley and things got interesting. Wanting more privacy so hopped in her car and drove around a bit find a place to park. Conversation was all about sex and relationships..with a lot of let’s call it, heavy kino… We decided to end the evening without fucking but an understanding that we were both available to do so another time. I also never carry wrappers and realized after she revealed her n-count that would be a necessary precaution. All in all a highly interesting encounter.

    The net effect I guess is I’m keeping my options open but feeling no urgency with any woman. Actually more interested in hitting the gym, which I’ve done a lot more of lately.

    Aside from all that while things with my kids have generally improved a lot in the past months, I’m definitely feeling low today. Ex has got my daughter wrapped up in babysitting for her all the days she is supposed to be with me. She gets paid for it so I have to agree with my daughter that it is a real job, only that she is at her mother’s constantly. My son turns 21 today and I really wanted to spend time with him but instead he is doing something with his mother and her fiancé. Being mindful of my budget I wasn’t able to do some thing as extravagant as they are to celebrate his birthday. I bought him The Way of Men by Donovan and Rollo’s The Rational Male as his b-day gifts. I know it’s not an exciting gift for a guy turning 21 but as a father I believe it’s probably the best gift I’ve ever bought him. Don’t know if he will read them but at least the books will be handy if he decides he needs them.

    So yeah, feeling like Scribbler about how sucky it sometimes is as a father. This is one of many results of choosing to divorce my kid’s mother and I have to fucking deal with it. Sorta feel as if I’m using the TRM comments for my own emotional tampon. The ego can bruise easily when one doesn’t keep his head in the right frame. Sorry guys if it comes off that way, you’re not my tampons and hope you don’t get toxic box syndrome. 🙂

    I’ve plateaued and need to lean into the edge so I can break out of this. Two weeks ago I wrote in a thread somewhere to Andy that embracing the Burden of Performance motivated me. It’s really easy to suggest others they need to man up, not as easy to do so yourself when feeling low.

    Aside from living month-to-month on the verge of bankruptcy life really is overall good. I guess perhaps some of this is all part of the unplugging.

  23. @SJF
    February 27th, 2016 at 11:57 am


    “Have you looked into your strength and weaknesses in general, in romantic relationships, and in parenting on Meyers-Briggs web sites in order to optimize your success?”

    Honestly- the thought never occurred to me to apply M-B to relationships/parenting (having a d-oh! moment here…). It’s always been in the context of corporate team building stuff, so I know my ENT are all huge, but my J barely fell over the line. So if M-B is a relative tool, I am the P to my LTR’s strong J.

    Will be reading more- thanks again. RH

  24. “No passport, eh?”

    Ohhhh yeah, I forgot you guys can go overseas to take advantage of poor young women in third world countries.

  25. Has anyone produced a wordpress app that allows readers to pick and choose commenters to “grey out” or redact?

    These multi page threads would be great if they didn’t get stunk up with certain commenters; such as those from the squat to pee club…

  26. More from my edge of darkness.It’s amazing to me how I am so unable to please my self, to serve myself, to get selfishly motivated – to become my own point of mental origin.

    I mentioned above how the denigration from my Dad ground self-loathing into me at a young age, but as I let myself sink into where I am and what’s actually happening, I realize so much more is going on. The moral universe I grew up in was a conventional Irish Catholic-American one. And in this world, being selfish and self-focused was considered wrong. As a man, my only value was to serve my family and to be a hard worker. Even success was not to be measured in things I accrued solely for my ends but rather for family and community.

    Of course, this is an impossible ideal and that same world was filled with men who drank too much and were incredibly rageful and selfish in some real ways. But I’m talking about the “standard” men were held up to in such a system.

    The FI was rampant in that system, male sexuality shamed and suppressed, as was female sexuality. But in different ways – women were pedestalized and to be served, men were to work. For me, the particular circumstances of my life made this even sharper as when my mom died when I was 11, I took on serving my family by caring for my infant sister (mom died in childbirth with her). And when my father remarried just 15 months later (to the next woman he knocked up, he’d married my late mom after knocking her up with my oldest brother), I was told that the family would only work if I put it first. That they needed me to make it work and to contribute.

    My slightly older sister and I took this very seriously. My life had inverted, up until age 11, I was the youngest of 4. But now – both my older brothers off to college and then Air Force and marriage, I had one older sister, two younger stepsisters, a younger sister and then an younger half sister. I went from being the baby of the family to the oldest male in the course of two years. When my Dad and stepmom divorced when I was 15, I was the “man of the house” – my stepmom told me so directly. I did a walk through of the house at night to make sure it was locked up, and took up many of those responsibilities.

    And then when I was in my senior year, my stepmom told me she was moving away and that well, I wasn’t really invited. I was going off to school anyway but really, when I visited after that I was a guest, it was never my home. The crucible of those 8 years of my life shaped me utterly. I had utterly internalized my value as of being service to others. I was also pleasure seeking via drugs and alcohol but I was ashamed of those and other pleasures. It was bizarre. As for women, it was “Madonna/Whore” and sex was filled with shame and desperation. Me? I was the “good guy” who had a wild/dark side, and the “wounded soul”.

    As I accrued accomplishments and stuff, I began to see how none of it actually made me content. I was always a bit uneasy inside, always discontent somehow. I would have these moments of achievement, but all I would feel is relief. I remember after my divorce, sitting in the Lexus 400 I had bought, crying in my driveway because I realized it didn’t make me any happier. But even then the mindfuck continued – I was a cliche and hated myself for being a cliche.

    Now that I’m older and the accomplishments began to fall away, and the people I served turned on me and never appreciated any of it, I’ve been left barren, my motivations shattered. Really, since my divorce in my early 30s, I haven’t been able to motivate myself to go at anything very hard. I did many things, had interests and jobs etc. but I never could sink into them completely. I never gave myself to them the way I gave myself to my work and family (my family of origin and my marriage) when younger.

    As the externals got more fucked up, whatever shred of motivation I felt would only be fleeting. I felt like I was going through the motions and could never really go hard at anything. On an even more basic level, viscerally, I knew none of it actually pleased me and gave me real satisfaction. Rather, it was all just acting out these roles I’ve been handed. At some basic level I began to say fuck it to everything and to just do the minimum to survive. However, my ego would not allow me to own that, so instead I hated myself for it and present the old image to the outside world, but people can tell i’m bathing in cynicism and hopelessness.

    And now, I’m to find my own “point of mental origin”? I’ve suppressed what I wanted and what mattered to me in large part for my entire life. In fact, I’ve shamed my desires and interests and instead have measured myself by the externals as that was what mattered, not me. I never mattered to me, except to hate myself.

    Game brings this up close and into focus for me. You see, when I had better externals I could still pretend to be confident. I could “act as if” and layer on motivational crap and self help and spirituality and money and looking good and sort of talk myself into thinking I was doing well and really liked who I was and what my life was about. But now? With very little to show for it? Stalled and unable to consistently motivate myself? Doing just enough to get by – I can’t kid myself.

    So yeah, how in the fuck can I “be the prize”? I’m not the prize for myself. It’s the shock of a lifetime to get to my most basic truths via trying to become a “Pickup Artist”, lol. I mean, I’ve done a year of contemplating the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Tsongal Rinpoche in daily meditation – focusing on death as a means for being present. I’ve actually had the Buddhist peak experience of “disappearing”. I’ve climbed mountains, dived wrecks, skied canyons, fucked hotties, stacked mad cash. I’ve dived deep into philosophy and learning and have come to understand so much about the world, and even my own psychology. 15 yrs of therapy including shit like a 5 day inpatient codependency program and Yoga-PsychoDrama workshops and energy healing by Shamans.

    And yet, I never really got to know myself. All that seeking was “in order to” and designed to “fix me” so I could finally be okay. This is another aspect of my crash over the past 10 yrs – I would chase and chase and work and work but when I grabbed the brass ring, all I felt was relief. And emptiness. And fear.

    It’s unbelievable to me that the simple act of trying to apply PUA technique to fucking young hotties has taken me on the most confronting and honest journey of my life. But then again, if I’ve really digested the Red Pill, it should not. In a way, all I described above is how I internalized the FIs idealism and the Blue Pill script for being a man. Pickup forces me to confront the reality of who I’m being against the unwavering truth of our intersexual dynamics – it’s the ultimate “direct experience” of the Red Pill. My subcommunications are the narrative of who I’m actually being and I simply cannot sublimate them or avoid them anymore. From fucking PUA, from dealing powerfully with reality and what I actually want. What a mindfuck.

    But I feel peace today. I see so clearly the arc of my life and feel a genuine motivation overcoming me. It’s weird, I’m so used to medicating with entertainment or other crap and to just hiding out from the world, hoping everything will just work out but really just delaying the day of my suicide by one more day. Those habits die hard, and my mind and will is a bit unruly. I’m like a bucking bronc I don’t have a firm grip on yet, hell, I’m barely staying on the horse. But something has shifted. The knot in my stomach that I carry all the time is loosening and I have clear, calm moments in which all my natural verve and motivations flood back into me.

    I’m going to cultivate this aspect of my being. And attend to my life with real will and commitment. I’ve already started on this path and have had moments of clarity that lead to this before today, so it’s not overnight. But some new vista has opened up for me. Funnily, it manifested by me writing a blog post about my life and story in business this morning. I saw just how clear I was and how motivated I was when I was younger and was crushing it in business – for others at that point – and could see so clearly how little I actually give a shit now. I’m waking up to owning my life, for real. Not playing at it and waiting for applause, which rarely comes anyway and never was satisfying when it does.

    When I get in touch with my anger it’s like, “I tried so hard but nobody gives a shit.” Well now I give a shit, and you know what? That’s all that matters.

    Last. I feel some real sympathy for my Dad, even if he was a sadist and a madman. He was a tortured soul, as so many men are. This is the real Red Pill journey; Self ownership and actualization, breaking free of the false consciousness of the Blue Pill and embracing oneself. And this is why women cannot be truly Red Pill – because they have never had to disown themselves just to get by in the world. Whew.

    Have a good day everyone. Peace, out.

  27. @hank holiday, btw I am still working through Julien’s SHIFT (which you may have seen) and he has a good bit in the Getting Your References section about why it is important to talk to everyone and hit on everyone, even if the girl isn’t your physical type – it’s just good practice and building reference experiences.

    It’s basically what I’ve been trying to express to you. Check it out.

  28. Ohhhh yeah, I forgot you guys can go overseas to take advantage of poor young women in third world countries.

    Said the woman taking advantage of some poor cuck bastard in a first world country. When you fall off a horse that high you’re gonna break your fuckin’ neck, cupcake.

  29. @Scribblerg

    “I feel some real sympathy for my Dad … a tortured soul, as so many men are. This is the real Red Pill journey; Self ownership and actualization, breaking free of the false consciousness of the Blue Pill and embracing oneself.”

    I wonder in what way our lives would have been different had even the basics of RP been taught by fathers to sons… Instead, growing-up in the default BP matrix- treading water out at sea, no land in sight and the FI dorsal fins circling closer.

    I am grateful to have to have found this path; both for me ~1/2way through life, but also for my boys, who are only beginning theirs.

  30. I’m still catching up on all the comments, but I wanna jump in and give a huge shout out to all the commenters here. Hello Gentlemen!!!

    As I always say, there’s some good work here.

    @ scribblerg-

    Your comment @ February 28th, 2016 at 10:07 am man, deep stuff. I loved it.

    There’s nothing for me to add of substance to the things you typed. But I feel compelled, soooooo…..

    IRL I don’t know many people who would feel as though they are the prize. Women have that luxury because society is tilted that way. Hollen had some pretty good commentary about that phenomenon.

    I will say this much, there’s nothing wrong with self doubt at times when one is taking on a rebuilding of self. It’s hard, dirty work, and it will take as long as it takes. Undoubtedly you’re reaching the ” it gets better ” stage, and that is a wonderful thing. I am glad to hear it.

    When shit reaches a certain point, the pressure and doubt and questioning, it is good to fall into the ” one more day ” mode of thinking. At least until the peace and clearer thinking returns.

    Real quick: I had company this morning. My wife’s best friend came by with her fiancé. I like the guy a ton. He’s and ex special forces man ( I seem to attract these guys in my life… I keep collecting ) and he is always a lot of fun to be around. I also like to observe the way he games his fiancée. It is priceless and hilarious.

    This guy has accomplished much in life. Some stuff he can’t talk about, but the stories he has are amazing. I was very happy to have him sitting at my counter this morning eating a sandwich and drinking coffee.

    I once asked him about the bullet wound that’s visible on his neck ( it’s sad that I can identify bullet wounds…another story though ) and he told me matter-of-factly about being in a helicopter in Afghanistan and getting fired upon by Taliban. He was hit 8 times. At the time he related this to me, he raised his shirt to show me the wounds. The copter crashed and the pilot was killed. All 6 survivors were badly wounded, but escaped the area and got rescued later.

    So I’m always allowing myself to see this guy as some kind of super masculine specimen, which he is in most ways, but then he talks about not being able to sleep much at night. He talks about the constant struggle he has to stay calm in any kind of tense situation and to shut off his trained instincts. How his ” self monitoring ” and second guessing his reactions gets tiresome and frustrating, and his doubts sometimes about whether he can be just a regular, normal person.

    This morning we laughed and joked so hard, we needed Kleenex to dry our eyes, and I’m sure half the neighborhood could hear us clearly. ( zfg ).

    I contend that a majority of men, men who are trying to accomplish anything real in life, men who take on trying to achieve self improvement that will get them closer to peace and happiness, will question and doubt and struggle. It’s the nature of the beast.

    I also believe that the same men have to overcome their own ” trained instincts “.

    We are all much stronger than even we are capable of believing. But most of the time, the work isn’t pleasant. The more it hurts, the better the end result will eventually be. If a man is not sitting on his couch, letting life pass him by, he risks getting the shitty end of the stick every, fucking, day. I know it’s a worn out and corny as hell cliché, but it truly is about not how hard you fall, but whether or how fast you get back up.

    The end comes with that eternal sleep, and that part takes care of it’s self. It’s our job to do what we can and struggle until the natural ending.

    Oh yeah, don’t ever forget to Laugh at this shit. Hell, practice laughing at the shit that annoys or puzzles you. Whenever I’m in doubt about how to approach a problem, my first reaction is to laugh. IDGAF what anyone else happens to think about it either.

    Anyway, that’s all I have to say, other than thank you as always for sharing.

    Peace to you too.

  31. @ Scribblerg

    One of The things I noticed doing volunteer work is it is a selfish occupation.One woman has a wall of shame she hangs her certificates and awards on. After the 08 bust I found myself w/ nothing to do and feeling useless,stripped of my business, the power ,respect and sense of accomplishment. I found a local nonprofit and volunteered,put in four years ,doing small jobs on the side for income.

    In the process I regained my self-respect,met alot of good people and a few bad. The big contracts started rolling in and I no longer have the time,but when things cool off and they always do that door of service is open & waiting for me next time I won’t hesitate.

    Like you my family of origin is a mess I know they did the best they could w/ what they had to work with. So I take the good things they taught me and let the bs ride.

  32. @ Stuff-

    We must learn to be comfortable Just With Ourselves. I can’t stress the importance. There was a point in life where I was ” my job “. It was a mental flaw for me.

    External shit has to be kept in perspective. It is all separate from who we actually are. It may ” say something ” about us, but it never defines us.

    It’s cool to be happy with an occupation or our place in life, but we can’t become those things, because they are ” things ” and we are men.

    ” Like you my family of origin is a mess I know they did the best they could w/ what they had to work with. So I take the good things they taught me and let the bs ride.”

    Damn straight.

    This, imo, is the best tactic, but it is a leaned tactic for the majority of us. I always ask people ” what’s the worst thing that you can imagine happening to you? “, and I gauge how quickly they answer as a measure of how much they’ve sweated the forthcoming scenario. Than I ask them ” has it ever happened to you ?”, and 95% of the time the response is ” nope “. Then I ask them to forget about it. Replace that scenario with something happy, fun and positive.

    People tend to speak of a ” Positive Outlook ” like it was a sneeze or something, that just happens. Most of us have to figure out and define what that is for ourselves before we can try to manifest it in our lives.

    But the one thing we all can identify pretty handily is Bullshit. It’s easier to learn to let the bs ride, as you say.

  33. @hoellenhund2

    “The traditional path is only open to two small segments of women: (A) daughters of the upper class, and (B) daughters of hardcore traditionalist families. (A) have high rates of marriage, and typically marry well-paid upper class men willing and able to finance the SAHM lifestyle of their wives if they opt for that. (B) belong to a tiny counterculture where it’s normal to live on some isolated farm in difficult conditions, raise many homeschooled children as SAHMs, and grow their own food, all under the authority of the husband.”


    “The SAHM option is beyond the reach for the rest of women – i.e. the large majority of them. The necessary social and economic circumstances for it simply aren’t there.”

    Are total bullshit… at least for the false reasons you give…

    I married at 24, had a kid at 25, started my business at 25 with fuck all. Been married 25 years now. My wife worked for 3 months when we were first married.

    That’s it.

    Was it hard, yeah it was hard. But it was a choice to forgo the false promise of additional funds and certain “luxuries” that 2 income families grasp for, like bigger TeeVees and newer cars and vacations… essentially all stuff they are financing via mortgage debt etc.

    Anyone who remains insane enough to get married today (and if you are I hope it’s because YOU want to have a kid and want to start paying for it) is doubly mad if they DON’T have a SAHM… You don’t need any special instruction, live on a farm (?) or have a trust fund to do so. You just have to make the CHOICE as a man to do it, then as a man organize your life to realize it.

    So if you wan’t it go do it. Don’t buy into MORE BP/FI conditioning that you can’t because your wife has to go to paper shuffle “make” work to get some “value” out of her social sciences degree, for her situational alpha “work husband’s” approval.

    Keep her at home, keep her raising your children and keep her busy. You can do it if you want to.

  34. @ Blaximus

    I agree we are not our jobs, or what we own, or the number of people we are responsible for. But when we lose these things there is a big hole to fill or contemplate.

    And really the best quickest way to get out of my own head is to help someone else,and there are plenty of people that can use a hand.I would like to volunteer at a soup kitchen or red cross next time.

    My head is full of plans and dreams,stuff to build and fix,new fishing holes to find, forest to clear. But if I need to get out of myself ,I find someone to help.

  35. @ Sentient –

    In response to hoellenhund2-

    ” I married at 24, had a kid at 25, started my business at 25 with fuck all. Been married 25 years now. My wife worked for 3 months when we were first married. ”

    I have to agree with hoellen.

    30 years ago, I was pretty much unconstrained in my ability to earn. It was just a matter of how hard/much I wanted to work, and the payoff was there.

    Today, with our economy in the shambles that it is, especially for 20-30 year olds, and the costs of living, a majority of men will not be able to support a family with a sahm. I’m speaking of ” majority ” here.

    We older guys tend to ignore the new economic facts on the ground, because we’ve been busy working and earning and planning and trying to stay one or more steps ahead.

    It’s a whole new world out there, economically for the masses of people.

    The masses don’t drive new cars ( unless their parents or someone else helped them to do so..) and giant TV’s are relatively cheap – plus, they were raised on tv/entertainment in current society. I don’t think many 20-25 year olds ran up mortgage debt/refinanced because they are among the lowest homeowning demographic…no money, tighter mortgage requirements ( no more n.i.n.j.a. loans since the housing crash ).

    I don’t realistically expect young men to do the things that I did at their age because the earning/jobs just isn’t there.

  36. Oh, and for the young folks that do drive new, luxury vehicles, that is only possible through leasing and the 6-7 year car loan. Pretty soon there will be 8-10 year car loans and standard 40 year mortgages.

  37. @ Rollo – “The new, post-sexual revolution order is a model ostensibly based on ‘sexual freedom’, but what this really represents is a return to that naturalistic sexual order based on pre-agrarian, evolutionarily incentivized hypergamy.”

    This is not true.

    The naturalistic sexual social order of pre-agrarian human existence expressed BOTH genders natural sexuality without preference of one over the other or the perversion of both that we see today. Today’s laws and social conventions prevent men from returning to THEIR natural sexuality. We are not returning to the naturalistic sexual social order and there is no indication that we will any time soon. Many of todays “betas” are restrained “alphas”. Law and social convention restrains them.

    It is not idealism, intellectualism, mental masturbation or “cultural changes” that determine human behavior. We like to pretend that emotional idealism steers history but it never has and never will. We think women are “liberated” by laws and social conventions but they are not. The laws and social conventions that we think make it possible for women to “enjoy” new “freedom” are not the cause, they are only ideals and “paradigms” that result from the real cause. These laws and social conventions are only thoughts, documents and behavioral practices that confirm what has already happened and been accepted. Women have been liberated from responsibilities and hardships they faced prior to agriculture. Technology and industrialization were the real enablers of female “liberation” and “freedom”. Today, because of technology, we are relatively safe from predators, famine, disease, and tribes of other humans, etc. We are intellectually advanced (maybe) but definitely physically and mentally weaker. Today’s human female does not need the superior strength, tenacity, strategic intelligence and initiative possessed by surviving males in pre-agrarian tribal groups. Back then, she and her children could not have survived without it him. Today we breed mostly wanna be hyenas and betas and they are voting accordingly.

  38. Yah never been to cabo and don’t intend to go. Already have three young women taking advantage of me like Emily is taking advantage of her Dady.

    Maybe her dad will get lucky and she got knocked up by foam canon boy,and she can cuck her bp fiance.Then dad will be off the hook for a feminist college education at least.

  39. SJF

    Asdgamer will stand on his meritorious comments here or not. The past is not prologue. Spergs are people too. And this blog is about red pill awareness and game. Descriptive by Rollo and prescriptive by commenters when appropriate.

    Would you take that same position if Asdgamer was on another blog with a bunch of pedophiles talking about raping 6 year old boys?


    Oh Im sorry, did I break your concentration? You were saying something about: “Spergs are people too?”

    Oh? You were finished?

    Well then please allow me to retort;

    whatever “Asdgamer’s genetic deficit, does he know WTF color HE is?

  40. @Roused

    You are doing the right thing, man. Take time to recharge your batteries. You have to provision yourself for the next ascent. So there is nothing wrong with pausing and reflecting what your core mission is.

    You’ve been through a lot. And despite what Sentient and HABD were saying before, it might perhaps be more true that men coming to the red pill and game tend to go too fast instead of too slow. Mostly because lack of mastery because the toolbox of Game is just too seductive as tactics that work right out of the box. (Just speculation on my part. Everyone is different and they have to write their own script. Totally dependent on your personality, intellect, resources and partner/ or targeted partner). Don’t move on to a new step until you built a good foundation.

    Too fast at red pill and you tend to forget the #1 rule of fight club and talk about it in public too much. Too fast at game and you tend to be too much of an asshole (not that there is anything wrong about being an asshole, you just have to be the right kind of asshole. A person is an asshole when his sense of entitlement makes him immune to complaints from other people–irrational self confidence and passing shit tests are the cornerstone of game.)

    But I digress.

    “So I’ve cut back on that, often thinking that commiserating on TRM isn’t necessarily good. Then I read what Scribbler posts and think, fuck, get this shit off my chest.”

    Why the hell do you think the fucking manosphere was invented? (….besides letting me use fucking in a sentence without censorship?)

    Let it bleed man.

    “It’s like can’t we just focus on us? All these long winded conversations about how fucked up her kids are and how her ex blah blah blah….killing me.”

    Your job is to focus on you and invite her to come along willingly and with desire. Ever hear the saying you can’t negotiate desire. This is the exact reason that that notion exists. She might not come along for the ride but she is welcome to hop abord your train and ride with where you are going.
    What you have to do with this girlfriend is redirect her energies, just like a highstrung 3 year old hitting or kicking his sister (you take him out to hit a baseball or kick a soccer ball redirecting his energy–not whine about how they are doing the wrong thing). You reward either person with positive emotions for exhibiting good behavior and take away your time and commitment for bad behavior.

    If you don’t do this she is going to try to betatize you with her most valuable asset, her vagina. She will play hid the vagina until you comply. Hold to your mission

    Options and Consequences.

    Some women, some times, just need to be told no. A week of no sex is not worth her getting you to cave to her. And on her part “Seduction, compassion, appreciation (such as can be expected of a woman) only become a necessity when women are subjected to a real preoccupation with losing a valuable man – a man they admire.” –Rollo

    When a teenager is misbehaving you tell them in no uncertain terms that there behavior is not proper from your perspective as a parent. You give them options and which they choose has consequences.

    This is an example from BluePillProfessors book. (This was a chapter on Dread Level 4 Options and Consequences. It dealt with dealing with a wife’s sexual denial. Just change out “sexual denial” for “using you as a tampon”)

    “You should begin the process of limiting your time and attention when she is not behaving like you need her to behave. You have already removed the reinforcers for her bad behaviors (like sexual denial) by stopping your negative reactions. In Level 4, you will begin moving to a paradigm where you begin to withdraw your time, attention, and ultimately your affection and “presence” for sexual denials.

    Let me take apart these concepts so we are totally clear: Time” is a reward characterized by your physical presence in the room. “Attention” is a reward characterized by a rapt husband listening carefully to his wife, often while holding her tenderly. “However, don’t be confused! “Affection” and “Presence” are very different from “Time” and “Attention.” These are the all-important you that women blather on about. Lots and lots of women have divorced their husbands for the nebulous reason that he is not “Present” and most guys haven’t a clue what they mean. To be clear, your “Presence” means that you are giving her affection and your positive influence and positive emotions, and that you are acting like a good husband with a loving wife. When you are not “Present,” you are not giving your wife good feelings, and you are mostly cold and distant and uninterested in her or her cute prattling. You CAN be “Present” and STILL leave the house while she is ranting and raving! Simply take her in your arms, give her a warm kiss, and tell her “I need to go to the gym sweetie, I will be back in a couple hours.” I think you only withdraw your “Affection” and “Presence” for repeated sexual denials. You begin by withdrawing your time and attention and later, if that doesn’t work you begin withdrawing affection and presence.

    The general idea is to start ignoring her for bad behaviors and rewarding her with your valuable attention and good will for her good behaviors. The trick is you need to limit your withdrawal of time, attention, and good will (“presence” and “affection”) ONLY for denials of sex, not usually for other “bad behaviors.” She should feel good when she is good, but if she is being bad, and only you are feeling it, that is a problem.

    A very effective way to “punish” is really nothing more than removing the reinforcers. This is known as Extinction in psychology where you remove the reinforcers to a behavior. We saw what follows in the last chapter is very well known with the behavior suddenly increasing. That is if you are Extinguishing behaviors such as sexual denial by removing the reinforcers, then the denial behavior might increase at first. However there will be a gradual decline in the (denial) behavior over time to a near 0 level (of denial) provided you are able to remove all the reinforcers for the behavior. For example, if a rat pulls a lever and gets a treat every time, it will expect a pellet when it pulls the lever. The first time it doesn’t work he will pull again, and again, trying to get the same response, however eventually he will stop pulling the lever because there is no reinforcement. “

    Keep in mind though, and do learn more about comfort tests. Your girlfriend is not shit testing you she is actually comfort testing you. But that is a different discussion for a different time.

    And keep in mind the reference in his writing is in married man denial of sex. You need to swap that out for making you an emotional tampon. The concepts are the same.

    “It is vital to understand that you are not taking these actions in a precipitous way, and you are not doing anything to hurt your wife girlfriend. You are taking actions to satisfy your own needs first, and you need to get it through your head that is what an attractive, in-charge man does. Putting yourself first does mean you are being “selfish.” When you go to the gym rather than continue to listen to your harpy, sex denying wife girlfriend spewing about her fucked up son (and trying to make you her tampon to stop the bleeding) complain that’s not “selfish.” That is pure self-preservation, and your best possible move. Don’t allow anybody to shame you for it. If you have calmly attempted to redirect her, then removing this negative influence from your life temporarily can be quite effective. If you get Shit-Tested for being “selfish” then congratulations! You are well on the way to fixing this mess.

    Shitty, nasty, bratty, bitchy behavior is not the type of behavior you usually want to respond to with the active removal of your “Affection” and certainly not your “Presence.” I am talking specifically about the behavior of sexual denial trying to make you an emotional tampon.

    Of course you may want to remove your “time” and “attention” to repeated Shit Tests, rantings and ravings, complaining, and ragings that so many women must do at least monthly (what a coincidence!) but you do NOT want to remove your “presence” or “affection” in response to those behaviors. Telling them apart is not hard. Consider the difference between nodding and listening to her complain for a while and then while maintaining warm eye contact, kiss her before you leave for the gym with a promise to return in a bit, to coldly saying, “OK” before turning your back on your wife girlfriend and leaving for the gym without another word. Do the first with intractable bitchy behavior and nonstop shit tests. Do the second for sexual denial emotional tamponading, and only for emotional tamponading, and only for a short, but increasing amount of time.

    If you still have objections, consider what you do on an airplane. You know the drill: “In the event of loss of cabin pressure, oxygen masks will drop from the ceiling. If a child is travelling with you secure your mask before assisting the child.” If you are reading this then your marriage has lost cabin pressure, and you need to secure your own mask before helping your wife girlfriend with hers. You need to get busy, you need to build your own life, you need to get going and get busy and become your own man. If she wants your valuable attention, she is going to have to earn it by becoming at a minimum more sexually compliant less emotionally tamponading.”

    Hope that clarifies things.

  41. @Thwack
    You got my vote.

    I won’t hold for rape,or pedophilia and become homophobic when it involves children even w/ the lezies.

    Also have a good friend that’s married to a white gal ,great zebra team,beautiful children. She used to yell at him and call him a n’,./;
    in front of the guys and he would shuffle hat in hand,not any more.
    That flashed when I read your post,graphic.

  42. “Would you take that same position if Asdgamer was on another blog with a bunch of pedophiles talking about raping 6 year old boys?


    Some of us don’t read other blogs about ASDgamer and what he says there. Some of us mostly dwell here. I care about what he posts with content here. About red pill awareness and game.

    Oh Im sorry, did I break your concentration?


    No I was actually composing some thoughts for my buddy Roused. Some useful information. That is, after I went and split a couple cords of wood at my farm.

    You were saying something about: “Spergs are people too?”
    Oh? You were finished?
    Well then please allow me to retort;
    whatever “Asdgamer’s genetic deficit, does he know WTF color HE is?


    Did you ever pause to consider that I don’t care what color you are? I care about what you post here. (and maybe you could turn that around here…..)

    And what if he has autism? From birth? I don’t hold that against him unless he posts shit here. Then, maybe I do because it is perhaps controlling what he posts here. I don’t know but I am pretty damn judgemental.

  43. Pingback: Assurances |
  44. @Blax – Thanks man, great wisdom. I had a very peaceful, productive day. Getting fired up about my life but approaching like a mature, confident, skilled man would. You know the old joke about the young bull and the old bull together, on a ridge, looking down into a valley filled with cows grazing? The young sputters and proclaims, “I’m gonna run on down there and fuck one of those cows.” The older buffalo shakes his head and says, “You go right ahead, but I’m going to walk on down there and then fuck them all.” The thing about being older is you are just so much better at so many things. When I become self-oriented and calm, it just flows. I get riding the ups and downs but we are also in very different places, Blax. I have been flailing and not making progress. I’m not ashamed of that or beating myself up for it, I just want more for myself than that. I think I’m on the right path now.

    @Roy – I can’t imagine what my Dad would have been like with the RP. But I can tell you this – being able to feel sympathy and compassion for him is really nice.

    @Stuffin – “Let the BS ride” – amen, brother. I’ve done some volunteering too and I couldn’t agree more, it’s great to engage in one’s community that way. Even with crazy SJW women who predominate in that world.

    @Thwack – As many know, I’m a zero tolerance zone for racism too and I’m with your commentary on the matter 100%. I’ve recently gone on a tirade about it here so I’m giving it a rest for now. This isn’t CH and I can’t stand the kind of garbage found there or on ROK. Keep sharing from a black man’s POV. One of the worst things our politics is doing today is pitching black and white men against each other so stridently, when in fact, men need to stick together. And black men have seen the future of what’s coming for white men in terms of family and fatherhood. We are in this together, that’s how I see it.

  45. @Blax

    “I don’t realistically expect young men to do the things that I did at their age because the earning/jobs just isn’t there.”

    Nor the balls… I made very little the first few years. If you want it you can do it. My first house was a one bedroom. You know how hard it is to dine a ONE bedroom house?

  46. LOL

    Thwack— Banned at CH because EVERY post he interjects race…

    Like this here “whatever “Asdgamer’s genetic deficit, does he know WTF color HE is?”

    Carry on… Just don’t be naive, attending…

  47. “Ohhhh yeah, I forgot you guys can go overseas to take advantage of poor young women in third world countries.”

    Yup. You would do well to remember it. And when did ‘poor’ start to mean ‘not obese’?

  48. @ Sentient

    I won’t argue with the ” wanting ” aspect. A guy does have to want to go after a reasonable wage/living standard.

    Maybe it’s just that I live in a part of the country where jobs are scarce for young high school/ college grads – the average guys without any connections – to get started. I think they need to band together and protest and vote their way out of the current state, but that’s just my opinion.

    Over the years I’ve watched a dozen or so guys hustling and scrambling and doing all the things that historically have worked. Very few actually get a foothold.

    Myself? I’m 54 right now. I’ve had the same job for 20 years ( happy anniversary to me…). I’ve been able to adapt and change my skillsets to help me keep my employment. You know what? We have one young cat in the entire department, and he’s in his 30’s.

    I make the hour commute each way to work because there are virtually no opportunities in my city/county. I got the job I have because of connections that I’d made over the years. Certain skills/knowledge base is required, and the average 20-25 year old guy just doesn’t have the experience usually. Economic pressures do not allow for ” working your way up ” in most companies anymore.

    Where’s a young guy supposed to work now? How many factories have we lost over the past 20 years? I know tons of men that worked in factories all of their lives, and they bought homes, raised families and even sent a kid or two to college. Wasn’t easy, but it was doable. Is everyone in the nation supposed to work in tech? Lol, I watched the rush to tech fields lower wages since I started in the field 30 years ago.

    We heard a rumor that Google may be moving right up the street from where my company is located. Management is already talking about the mass exodus that will happen with our younger workers if that comes to pass. But tech companies cannot provide 125 million jobs.

  49. Are total bullshit… at least for the false reasons you give…

    I married at 24, had a kid at 25, started my business at 25 with fuck all. Been married 25 years now. My wife worked for 3 months when we were first married.

    That’s it.

    Was it hard, yeah it was hard. But it was a choice to forgo the false promise of additional funds and certain “luxuries” that 2 income families grasp for, like bigger TeeVees and newer cars and vacations… essentially all stuff they are financing via mortgage debt etc.

    You do realize you aren’t actually providing a counterargument, do you? The large majority of girls cannot base their future on a promise that they’ll find a faithful husband who starts a successful business at 25 and earns enough to provide for a whole family. That’s why their plan A is to get a degree and get a job.

  50. @thwack

    Blaximus’ responce is proof he knows thats not my function. Besides, whats a little good crab/bad crab among friends?

    i wasn’t trying to protect him, i was trying to help YOU…lol

    this shit is hard to see without some help once in a while (that’s true for me too)… and i just want to point out that while i understand what you are saying about being ‘crabby’ (lol) that comment is STILL the FI in play (the ‘jokiness’ is the FI pushing on you to minimize your perception of the damage it’s doing…)


    redpillistan…central highlands…you know, where it’s so clear you can see all the way to the ‘code’…lol

    good luck!

  51. @Roy Hobbs

    “I wonder in what way our lives would have been different had even the basics of RP been taught by fathers to sons… Instead, growing-up in the default BP matrix- treading water out at sea, no land in sight and the FI dorsal fins circling closer.

    I am grateful to have to have found this path; both for me ~1/2way through life, but also for my boys, who are only beginning theirs.”

    Since you are new to the red pill, you might have seen mention of the book “The Way of Men” by Jack Donovan. It is a must read for a man with sons in a default FI, BP Matrix. It gives real awareness of how and why to celebrate a masculine identity for you and your sons. (And why sexual polarity is important in any relationship with a woman. Men need to prevent themselves from being feminine and women need to prevent themselves from being masculine–especially INTJ women if you know what I mean.)

    Read it. For the sake of parenting your sons. And inculcate the four masculine tactical virtues in them–Strength, Courage, Mastery and Honor (among other men).

    (Disclaimer: Sorry to bore the regular commenters with the following after having rambled on about this last year this time. You know how to use your scroll wheel.)

    On the Meyers-Briggs stuff, go to and on your personality type look at the side bar in the top right (under explore this personality type) and click on the links to strengths and weaknesses, then the link to Romantic Relationships and then Parenting.

    Disclaimer: Yes Meyer-Briggs is pseodo-voodoo science (and not even valid for what it claims in the workforce).

    It is about as scientifically valid as Tarot cards.

    But it is chick crack. And a hit of crack for guys like ENTJ’s that have strong masculine types like you. It is a useful tool to self improve.

    It’s value is in reinforcing good ego-investments (strengths) and minimizing bad ego-investments (weaknesses) in your own personality and being the best relationship partner and parent that you can be by working on those to self improve. And at least half of Red Pill is self improvement (and is rarely mentioned because it is hard) in order to get your Agency back and to get Real Power (Rollo: “Real Power is the degree to which a person has control over their own circumstances. Real Power is the degree to which we control the directions of our lives.”)

    “Rollo: Real change works from the inside out. If you don’t change your mind about yourself you wont change anything else. Women can change their hair color, their makeup, clothes, breast size, and any number of cosmetic alteration on a whim or as they can afford them, but the constant discontent, the constant inadequacies they complain of are rooted in their self-perceptions, not how others perceive them.”

    So in my estimation, Meyers Briggs is simply a tool for self-introspection and self improvement. Maximize strengths/minimize weaknesses.

    But as Dr. Ronald E. Riggio suggests, the area in which pseudo-psychology can be very helpful is as a “tool for self-reflection,” but only “if [it’s] used as a starting point for discussing how people vary in their personalities, and emphasizing tolerance for individual differences and taking others’ perspectives.”

    It’s less an indication of someone’s objective character than a handy tool to see how someone sees themselves, a measuring stick as useful as it is scientifically shallow.

    And in developing Jungian psychology into corporate dogma, Myers and Briggs played fast and loose with the facts. The test is a partial bastardization of his principles, as the Perceiving and Judging metric never even existed in Jung’s original theories.

    But between the binary of the Myers-Briggs test being total crap and total enlightenment, we approach the truth of the MBTI—that total crap can be very enlightening.

    For some, the Myers-Briggs is a slippery slope into Barnum Effect, people’s tendency to “fall (become ‘suckers’) for generic personality explanations such as horoscopes and magazine self-tests as well as supposedly ‘scientific’ tests administered by an ‘expert,’” and one of the many cited strikes against the test is that because of its reliance on dichotomies, a great number of people can take the test and get a variety of answers depending on when they take it. You might find that both the ENFJ and the ISFP results sound like you. What does that make you then, schizophrenic?
    Pseudo-science doesn’t have to be empirically sound for it to have meaning in people’s lives. Ever since man was able to look up at the heavens and make animals out of disconnected stars, he’s attempted to make order out of universe’s expanding chaos. You might find that, over time, what you see in the night sky has changed—or maybe that you’ve changed. The observed result or the telescope itself isn’t, in the end, that important; what makes the difference is your willingness to finally look.”

    And here is an article about using it in Game:

    For example, consider your girlfriend:

    INTJ / INTP – Their brains are wired more like men. You can have rational and often insightful conversations with them, and drama will be minimal compared with other types. Sex often has wild/rough elements. They may lack the feminine “spark” that immediately endears them to you, but you can spend a peaceful day with this type without wanting to tear your hair out. They are likely to be shy at the beginning. Challenge them with wit and show physical/intellectual dominance. A rare type for girls.

  52. Nice to see some lurkers coming out. 🙂

    SAHM thing: I see a lot of girls that wanted the nice big suburban McMansion, then they popped the kid out and realize that work means NOTHING to them anymore. But now they’re stuck working to pay the mortgage. It’s funny how surprising this is to them! Way more than you would think. They are completely baffled at how much they love the baby and how attached they are. Nobody told them. Thanks feminism.

    Some girls try the SAHM thing, but go back to work because it’s so hard. I have no respect for those chicks. Some want to stay home, but the husband makes them work… Don’t get that one. A lot though have to work because the husband doesn’t make enough money. I feel for these people the most. I doubt their marriage will ever be “right.” When these girls have to leave their 6,9,12 week old completely helpless, dependent infant to be raised by some random people so she can support her HUSBAND? It’s heartbreaking and so fucking unnatural… There’s no way that they don’t resent that man. And unfortunately it’s very common.

    tl;dr.. If you’re going to have kids… Priority #1: Make sure you create a situation where the Mom can stay home.

  53. @YaReally

    That Valentino clip gives me nightmares. I have suffered through a situation like that. If you could have stepped into that tall guy’s body what would you have done? I know that the most non-reactive guy is the guy showing the most confidence but there must be some technique to get the girl away from the intruder. I guess old Tyler would do anti-Amoging stuff but that is so confrontational.

  54. @SJF

    Thanks for the splash of cold water. I really lose my focus on the mental point of origin and Frame when it comes to the push/pull with affection/attention and comfort tests. My problem is that I tend to limit my views and behavior through a black & white lens. I go from cuddles and hugs to asshole mode without enough sense of what rests in between or even giving a fuck.

    Totally agree with the mention of removing reinforcers, makes perfect sense now that I see more of the picture. Reminds me of how you handle little kids when they act up…

    Jealous about the cord of wood. I need some serious outdoor labor.

  55. “Reminds me of how you handle little kids when they act up…”

    Yes, it is kind of anti-masculine but I’ll be out splitting wood with an electric splitter instead of a maul (efficiency) on the back of my truck tailgate and listening to Dr. Laura Schlessinger talk show on XM radio (intellectual stimulation) at my hunting cabin and she is explaining that dynamic. She is very red pill on observing Law #10 and how women should handle themselves in a relationship (they should treat their man kindly unless they want him to walk). And how to redirect the energies of women and children.

    Operant Conditioning. Works on their mid brains and pre-frontal cortex.

    Go back and read that whole chapter in BluePillProfessor’s book on Level 4 dread. It is quite long (winded) and describes this dynamic. It is more of a maturing process in a man to have emotional intelligence in relationship Game. It works. It’s 90% making you a better emotionally controlled man (a masculine Oak tree) and the other half is setting limits by withdrawing your time and attention when she is exhibiting negative behavior and rewarding her with presence and affection when she is exhibiting positive behavior.

    “Jealous about the cord of wood. I need some serious outdoor labor.”

    That’s what winter doldrums are for.

  56. @gb_hill – check YaReally’s archive, he’s written lots about this (although not necessarily from the good looking guy’s perspective).

    But basically it doesn’t matter whether you’re the good looking one or not – it’s the same thing you need to do. You need to get the girl and the other guy reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them. They need to be in your frame – the guy who reacts less is higher value.

    Which is why old-school Tyler AMOG stuff like “I like your shirt” stuff works – it gets the good looking guy reacting to the other guy and he comes off as lower value.

    That, and do your best to just physically get the girl away from the other guy. YaReally has written about physically picking up a girl and carrying her to another part of the club. Or just physically block the guy out of the conversation (unless he’s a friend of hers)..etc.

  57. @Culum

    I think that the tall guy did try to pick up the girl and carry her away but it didn’t work. Another thing I have read on PUA sites is to say something like “you two look cute together, you should get married” and then encourage the girl to go with the guy; reverse psychology stuff.

    I understand the big picture; ie the need to be seen as non-needy and psychologically strong. But actual tech for that situation would have helped me a few times that I got out-gamed.

  58. The thing about supporters of hypergamy, that its supporters don’t get. Yes in the animal kingdom, the strongest and fittest males get to mate and pass on those genes. However as females don’t compete, they are passing in 50% DNA of non competitive genes.

    Secondly in human, especially out post feminism capitalism. The most attractive women do compete. They compete for not always the hottest or most physically strong and fit male but the male with most resources.

    This leads to women with good genes mating and marrying Donald Trump etc. In short capitalism leads to the best female genes reproducing with the men with average or below average genetics because allot of those guys are wealthy. Also most wealth, something like 80% is inherited. So the argument about better intelligence being passed on is also largely a myth. Again Trump was born into money and has had around 7 only need hear him talk to figure out his level of intellect.
    So alpha though? Maybe not so much if he hadn’t been born into money.

    Lastly most of the very attractive women who marry money…either have no children (wouldn’t wanna ruin that figure or spend time looking after them) or only one or two. Ensuring that they limit their genes passing on.

    So capitalism is actually anti Darwinism. You only need look at a country like Ukraine where they still have a masculine society and have not fully transitioned to the western bullhshit, yet!
    The women marry men who are hard workers, therefore physically strong and fit. Male looks are irrelevant. Men marry young attractive brides and up until recently anyhow, existed a societal stigma on unmarried women. To the point where 25 years old was considered an old maid. As it once was in the west. This puts pressure on women to marry quickly rather than spending the next 20 years on the carousel.
    Finally once these women get married, they have lots of kids. Thus ensuring Ukraine has an abundance of hot women. That’s why.

  59. I understand and sympathise with women from humble backgrounds marrying up, especially those from the developing world. The problem is we have western women who earn plenty of money and lots who have good paying careers and they still want to marry up. This is a problem.
    Men with money have always been happy to marry down for better looking women but women would rather marry old farts with money…even if those women already are financially secure.
    Women are basically greedy and can never have enough.

  60. There is no way men will allow this 20/80, there will be big problems and women will end up locked down like in Islamic countries, 80% of the male population with guns and angry and horny as fuck will group up and take women by force and change the rules, women become very corroborative when faced with extreme power, these 80% of angry men with the guns will be the new alpha’s as soon as they take up arms and fight.

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