I had an interesting conversation this week with my good friend Ray and a couple of my designers, Sadie and Sam (names changed to protect the innocent). Just a little background first; Sadie is the Japanese woman I mention in Mental Point of Origin. She’s been divorced once and her relationship history is one punctuated by her involvement with Beta men.
She’s is the definition of the opportunistic concept of female love, but her frustration comes from never having been able to consolidate on an optimized Hypergamy – she simply doesn’t have attractiveness or feminine pleasantry to generate the Alpha interest that would satisfy her. Thus, she attracts Beta orbiters looking for some low hanging fruit, and force-fits them into a contextual Alpha frame. In other words, she opportunistically entertains the Betas with provisioning potential and hopes they’ll man up into dominant Alphas. Thus far she’s been disappointed.
Sam is a gay man in his early 30s who makes a good living afforded by not having children and possessing a high calibre technical skill set. He’s got the outgoing, “look at me, I’m special because I’m gay” exuberance I expect from gay men, but he’s not flamboyant and can still be professional when he has to be. He’s been “dating” a new guy for a while now and has moved this guy into his home recently. He took part in our conversation because the issues of sharing resources, money and picking up half the rent (in his case mortgage) in a relationship came up.
Ray has been one of my best friends for over 15 years now and he’s the guy I mention in Good Girls Do. He’s worked for me directly or indirectly for most of that time and he’s notorious for starting conversations like this when we have downtime. He’s a firestarter, it’s what I like about him, and among the three he’s the only one who knows my online reputation. Ray is Red Pill aware so he knows how to prompt a controversial conversation with me when we’re in mixed company.
Ray: “RT, hypothetical question…”
RT: “Do I have to?”
Ray: “Let’s say you move your girlfriend in with you…”
RT: “Let’s say I don’t and I would never do that. End of hypothetical.”
Ray: “No, I know, but, say you did, and let’s say your rent is $1,000 a month. Would you tell your girlfriend ‘Hey the rent is $1,000 a month how about you pay $300 and I’ll pay $700 or would you say 50/50?”
RT: “No. I’d pay it all myself. I’d also be sure that only my name was on the lease.”
Sadie:”What? Why, that’s silly?”
Ray: “You wouldn’t expect any contribution?”
RT: “No. I wouldn’t turn it down if she took it upon herself to contribute, but I wouldn’t expect it from a girl I (foolishly) brought into my living arrangement.”
Sadie: “You wouldn’t expect her to pay half?”
RT: “No. If I can’t provide my own $1,000 rent or food, or to keep the lights on, I have no business bringing a woman into that arrangement. If I have more than enough for myself I don’t need her paying. Besides, if she’s that into living with me, she’ll want to contribute in other ways and I wont have to ask.”
Sam: “You don’t think it should be an equal split? Maybe that’s a man and a woman thing…”
RT: “Yes and no. I’m sure between you and your boyfriend there’s a more dominant personality right?”
Sam: “Yeah, me.”
RT: “And you probably make more money too. So there’s really no ‘equality’ when it comes down to it.”
Sadie: “I expect my boyfriend to pay half the rent.”
RT: “Of course you do, because women think in terms of equality when it works to their advantage. What if your ‘boyfriend’ could pay for all the rent, utilities and most of everything else? Would you still try to pay half?”
Sadie: “Yes of course.”
RT: “What if he only paid just half and you knew it was a better deal for him?
Sadie: (tentative) “Yes,…”
RT: “I doubt that, but what you’re saying is that you’d limit improving your way of life to maintain a belief in equality.”
Sadie: “All the guy’s I’ve lived with have been mooches.”
RT: “Which explains why you’re not living with them any more. It goes both ways, women don’t respect men they need to support. All this stuff about equality in relationships is nonsense.If your boyfriend could easily make rent while you struggled to come up with it you’d resent him for it. There is no equal division.”
Sam: “I guess I see what you’re saying, but the expectation is still the same even for me and [boyfriend].
RT: “There is no equality in a relationship, but there can be complementarity where either person’s benefits can offset the needs of the other.”
Ray: “So you and Mrs. T aren’t 50/50?”
RT: “Ray, I make about 4 times the money that she does, how is there ever going to be anything like equality with that kind of balance?”
Ray: “But what about chores and shit?”
RT: “I take care of the outside of the house, she takes care of the inside. I do the smelly dirty jobs, she keeps the fresh cleaning ones, it’s not rocket science.”
Sam: “Sounds like you just want to stay in the power position.”
RT: “Yes, but it’s only a power play if you’re exploiting your partner. Women like to say they want an equal partner, but they don’t, do they Sadie? They want someone to respect and look up to. So when that comes down to numbers, to money, what’s really holding you together? Love? Mutual interests? (at Sam) Right now you can’t help but be the more dominant one in your relationship. So do you stop being so just to balance things? Do you expect [boyfriend] to pick up the slack more?
The Cardinal Rule of Relationships
In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.
This principle isn’t so much about ‘power’ as it is about control. This might sound like semantics, but it makes a difference. It’s very easy to slip into binary arguments and think that what I mean by the cardinal rule of relationships is that one participant must absolutely rule over the other – a domineering dominant to a doormat submissive. Control in a healthy relationship passes back and forth as desire and need dictate for each partner. In an unhealthy relationship you have an unbalanced manipulation of this control by a partner. Although control is never in complete balance, it becomes manipulation when one partner, in essence blackmails, the other with what would otherwise be a reinforcer for the manipulated under a healthy circumstance. This happens for a plethora different reasons, but the condition comes about by two ways – the submissive participant becomes conditioned to allow the manipulation to occur and/or the dominate initiates the manipulation. In either case the rule still holds true – the one who needs the other the least has the most control. Nowhere is this more evident than in interpersonal relationships.
When I was writing this post many years ago I hadn’t fully considered how this rule interacts with, and contradicts, many of the tenets of egalitarian equalism. The idealistic state of that equalism is one in which two co-equal, yet independent people come together in a perfect union of balance. In theory that balance should account for resources, emotional investment, family considerations, as well as intellectual and social status aspects of either partner.
These considerations alone should be enough to illustrate equalitarianism as the manipulative farce it is, however, all we really need to do is take into account the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. It’s very easy to be accused of being controlling when you embrace the truth of this rule – and particularly so when the reigning social undercurrent is one in which everyone ought to be co-equal rational actors.
I expected to have that leveled at me in this conversation, but it’s important to bear in mind the real nature of power. By my own definition, power is the degree of control we exercise over the direction of our own lives. As I mentioned, I don’t mind being the more powerful partner in terms of resources in my marriage because I accept that stupid notions of maintaining anything like “equality” is simply infeasible. I know more than a few men who’ve sold their lives’ potential away in the belief that they should lessen themselves in order to support a more balanced, equalist ideal. Ultimately their relationships, marriages and families suffer because they never own that potential – just the idea of owning it is a source of guilt and shame.
For all of the bleating about more equitability being needed between men and women. the fundamental truth is that it’s neither a realistic nor workable state. I’ve used money for my illustration here, but this applies to many other facets of an intersexual relationship. From an equalist perspective this sounds a lot like a want for creating a condition of dependency, but in truth it is an unachievable state of egalitarianism that creates a never-satisfied state of dependency.
Her World or Yours?
If you go back and look at the video from Bachelor Nation you can see the dichotomy that presumptions of “equality” sows in western(izing) women today. Within the first 6 minutes of the video we see the internal contradictions inherent in women. There is a want for an idealized equal pairing, but yet a desire for a man to be a Man. The documentary finds the root of this dichotomy in modern resource imbalances between the sexes, and makes the predictable appeal to men not living up to their burden of performance. The male shame comes in contrasting women’s taking on what should be men’s performance burdens – the male obligation to which ironically flies in the face of anything like true egalitarian equalism.
Stay-at-home dads, house husbands, and anything relatable will always have a stigma attached to them in spite of any weak attempts to make them socially acceptable. That stigma is founded in a limbic-level understanding of men’s burden of performance; to be a Man is not just to produce sustainable resources, but to provide a surplus of those resources.
I recently read a poll sponsored by Forbes magazine that listed men’s top goals in life and for the first time in that poll’s history “a good physique” outranked all personal and financial ambitions for top executives. The predictable shame then followed that men aren’t “Manning Up” any more, and they’ve become vain, self-absorbed narcissists for a new focus on what image they present.
The obvious Red Pill conclusion is of course a realignment with the prevailing social perceptions (courtesy of the Feminine Imperative I might add) that women are out-earning men financially and educationally; thus the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy takes precedent. If America’s top execs are heeding the message of Open Hypergamy, why bother establishing yourself financially, academically, ambition-wise or otherwise?
The problem with this equation is evident in the Bachelor Nation video. I can understand the sentiments of MGTOW; if the opinions expressed by the quality of woman represented in the video are any indicator of a female zeitgeist it makes the idea of abandoning the Game altogether that much more appealing.
That said, and I’m going to dare to get prescriptive here, I believe that establishing yourself as an independent Man should be your top priority. I have no doubt that that sentiment will get convoluted with feminism’s Strong Independent Woman® meme, but lets clarify something first – the ideal that men ought to be strong and independent has always been the precursor to his quality as a man. Independence, self-sufficiency and determined ambitions have always been the hallmarks of a man comfortable with his burden of performance. Only in women is independence a novelty.
Yet now, in men, this independence is not just a novelty, but it’s been distorted into being an obsessive-compulsive sign of a man’s imagined insecurities. The very strength and independence men have always been expected to embody is the domain of women, while any hope for it from men is a sign of a fragile ego.
Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of who’s frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are.
I firmly believe Alpha is a mindset. That mindset can get the poorest son-of-a-bitch laid with the right application, tact and circumstance. That’s a tough pill to swallow when you work your ass off in the belief that your affluence and status should be the metric Alpha is judged by and women respond to. That’s also not to say affluence and status won’t get you laid by their own merit, it’s just the context in which that happens that makes the difference. There are many men who’ve found their retroactive cuckolding after having based their personal successes on the presumption that those successes should be the basis of his quality to women.
The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it. The forces that influence that lack or boost of will is irrelevant – just know that the conditions of an operative framework will shift because of them.
We can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a MGTOW perspective, it’s important for a Man to have a world into which a woman might enter. Not for her sake, but for a Man’s edification.
Establish your world; you shall make your mission, not your woman your priority. Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.
sjfrellc
May 21st, 2015 at 10:54 am
I work in electronics, computers, control etc. The best engineers are mustangs. Engineers that started out as bench technicians.
The Japanese as part of their training require ALL engineers to spend a year on the bench. Twenty would be better. But for that you have to start at age 10.
@ Vulpine Being independent is my greatest desire and my greatest fear. Not to get all childhood psychology here, but I had no relationship with my parents or sister growing up beyond yelling and fighting. We never even ate dinner together. I was bullied at school and at home my ‘friends’ terrorized me. I retreated into videogames, yes. Even Harvest Moon as you mentioned in another post, lol. That was one of my favorite games, go figure. Mental masturbation, yes. I call it Escape-a-Holism. Escape-o-holics. Anyway, I haven’t had a new game system since I was 15 years old. Somehow… Read more »
Morpheus May 21st, 2015 at 3:25 am The Draft horse model. About 20 years ago I was on a job in the South and happened to come on a debutante after party. I was close enough to hear a lot of what went on and these debs were working the males to find the best Draft horse. The “top” female was going to get the best horse. And the split went on like that right down the line. I was amused. And felt very sorry for the males. Ah. Well. The women? Cunts. Top to bottom beginning to end. Not… Read more »
Damn. sifrellc? A handshake into a bro-hug, for you, sir. HELLZ JEEYAH! I haven’t gotten my overheads looking like those, yet: nice work. I just haven’t gotten the earthworks done. See, you offered only a glimpse at the full picture. I have the same general goings on: pears, apples, apricot, chestnut, hazel, cherry, peach, gooseberry, currants, plum, blueberries, nanking cherry, highbush cranberry, rhubarb, asparagus, uh… and the seeds are stratifying for stone pine – swiss, siberian, and japanese – hardy kiwi, seaberry, thornless honey locust, paw-paw, cornelian cherry, dwarf russian almond… hops are on the agenda, too. I think I… Read more »
” . . . post your scared confusions over at AVfM.”
The forums are now being moderated by a tone policing woman. Men with chests and spines are being banned or leaving. The place has been colloquially renamed A Voice for Housewives.
On a lighter note, there was a picture online of a glory hole, obviously with a girl on the other side.
So what’s coming through the glory hole? A guy’s hand holding a diamond ring in an open case.
Nothing like a good laugh to pull you out of a slump. Although honestly, even though it was obviously a joke, it made me more nauseated than anything else. A picture’s worth a thousand words, right? Aye….
@ Vulpine I just looked at your post between writing mine and saw you mentioned paw-paws. I was going to ask you if you ever grew paw-paws. I love those things. I had a friend whose dad had a paw-paw tree. Never had anything quite like it. I never understood why they’re not more popular. Sweet but also mild enough that I could see a lot of people liking it. I sure did and wish they had more. High Brix gardening sounded interesting. I read about that a long time ago. Never read into it but there are definitely people… Read more »
This is what I’m saying, Softek: you know what needs walking away from. You know the boogeymen in your past. Now, you just need to walk away from them and leave them in the past. Take what you like, imagine yourself in a future mode, with all those good elements you’d like to keep, then work backwards to where you are presently to determine the waypoints and obstacles you’ll encounter along the path to that ultimate future mode. You have a chance to simply walk away from who you WERE and with every step forward, advance toward who you want… Read more »
@M Simon
May I suggest a new currency? The Suffer. All you have to figure out is the blockchain and you can monetize your suffering by trading it with other sufferers. You will either become insanely rich or get suffering beyond measure. Which in this currency is the same thing.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/247/730/680.gif
That one legitimately caught me off guard. I can totally picture feminists/SJWs accepting these to provide “services” to groups. This needs to be a thing.
M Simon,
lol@firesign theatre
luvs me summadem guys.
I hope I didn’t gloss myself too much if I implied that was my aerial picture before and after. That was the property of the deceased habitat “guru” on which last weekend QDMA branch was hosted.
Although my aerials have quite the diversity of habitat and also is gorgeous on the ground. I started with a lot of habitat substrate to work with. I have the privilege of being able to do as a passionate hobby pursuit what you have to do for your homestead and I don’t take that privilege lightly.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Derm95/Octoberaerial2011.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Derm95/April2013aerialcropped2.jpg
I found the man o sphere while searching for a way to explain my success( & 1 failure) with women while trying to help some subordinates get their personal shit together. From that point of view, Rollo has the best observations and explanations in the Red Pill arena. Some of the commentators here are damn sharp dudes. Some of the dudes here are in the process of remaking themselves which earns much respect. Others… just turn the comment section into an internet circle jerk. Sure those dudes are smarter, better read etc then I am, but they remind me of… Read more »
Insanity- ” I care a great deal about the suffering of men. I care very little about the suffering of complete assholes who cannot even speak civilly to me. The disrespect, outright hatred, and relentless hostility towards a woman you don’t even know, makes my case for me. Red pill ideology promotes contempt and hatred towards all women, just as feminism promotes contempt and hatred towards all men. You are simply feminism with the genders reversed, and that is indeed a race to the bottom. ” Solipsism noun so·lip·sism \ˈsō-ləp-ˌsi-zəm, ˈsä-\ : a theory in philosophy that your own existence… Read more »
@CaveClown – “I understand that the “good girl” persona is just an attempt at seduction through differentiating herself from the “sluts” I also understand that the “promise” of dropping the good girl act ‘for him’ is what snags the beta. The promise of her “sexual best” and all. (which is why women that do ride the carousel go “born again” later, no?) At first glance, it seems like a solid strategy for hypergamy. If she can sell herself as virtuous, pure, and virginal, then she should have higher SMV. Then why settle for a beta?” I see Rollo hit ya… Read more »
Anecdotal aside: There was a quiet, sexy, proper, church going girl I knew when I was 16 years old. After a retrained make out session on her couch on night, she wound up riding me like I was American Pharaoh.
I never saw the ” good girls ” the same again.
@Vulpine Autumn Olive is pretty unmistakable once you learn what it looks like; it’s quite a pretty tree really, was originally brought here as an ornamental before it got out of control, lol. It has small silvery scales on the undersides of its leaves, small non-showy but fragrant cream-colored flowers this time of year, and develops red berries with small silver pits/scales in the late summer and autumn. Not too many thorns usually. They don’t replicate with suckers so much as they do by birds shitting the seeds everywhere. I don’t blame them for eating the berries though, they’re a… Read more »
I am growing a hegderow around camp Ton with blackberries. I enjoy them, the fence is pretty nasty and will only get meaner, I pull a fair number of rabbits off it( love rabbit) plus folks like them in their moonshine(don’t know why) and have been good for bartering. Been one of the better decisions. Blueberries? This is NC and we grow a shit ton of them, but they have not done well for me. Muscadine grapes grow like weeds though. Would really like to hammer down aquaponics but having a hard time finding legit information vs sales hype. Last… Read more »
@Sun – The young women I’m talking about are more promiscuous than the women of my generation by a mile. This is where I part company with many in the manosphere. I like the hookup culture – but I’ve given up on marriage or even a meaningful LTR. I’m just out to fuck as many women as I can and the young chick hookup culture is simply nothing like when I came of age – i turned 18 in 1980. Yes, there was lots of sex going on, but not nearly as much casual sex, and it was less frequent… Read more »
@Sun – If you were a ride on the cock carousel, what would it be called? Mine would be aging cool guy/rock star. Don’t you want to be a ride on that carousel? The fantasy is everything for women, so you’d better know what fantasy you are creating. Being a wiseass and smirking only go so far, that interest has to then be turned into intimacy.
What’s the name of your ride?
When a man loves a woman:
LOL just told a dude about living rural but being close to colleges for hunting grounds
This shirt works, is universal and independent. It’s not like Glen and I sat down over corn liquor to figure it before hand
@ Ton Ya, I don’t quite know why MGTOW is so devisive at times. Probably because some dudes use the whole “I’m gonna GMOW’ as shorthand for ‘fuck women, this is too hard, I quit.’ But ideally it’s really just the action step that follows redpill ideas. You just stop following a script and make your own. Wish I could grow grapes on my land, they fail catastrophically, haha. I make cider, beer, and mead and have a hankering to make wine, but buying a bag of fucking grape extract and just throwing yeast in would make me feel like… Read more »
Softek, I feel the exact same nihilism as you do. Now that I understand the red pill and realize I’m surrounded by animals with easily manipulated operating systems, what’s the point of interacting with them? I go through the motions with close friends, but ignore all social gatherings because why would a wolf party with sheep? All the drugs, sex and booze in the world doesn’t sooth this inner turmoil. I’m good with people but have always been a lone wolf so solitude is fine with me. It’s the lack of any meaning that makes everything feel empty and pointless.… Read more »
Morpheus wrote: “My own strongly held view is that the “red pill” extends far beyond the the scope of just mating/dating with women. Really, it is about questioning absolutely everything that you believe about everything. We make it to adulthood with our heads filled with sorts of ideas and beliefs that basically are the “conventional wisdom”. Maybe it is all wrong, absolutely all of it.” Unplugging is a profound process with many dimensions. I had spent a lot of time researching the optimizing of health through nutrition and discovered that the evidence simply doesn’t support the idea that eating natural… Read more »
@Reasonablefacsimile
Now that you understand that all comments are just a bunch of words used to convey experiences and abstract concepts, what’s the point of reading them?
Hint: the devil’s in the details.
” . . . an interesting and outspoken libertarian character Richard Nikoley . . .”
You have a knack for understatement.
Thanks, Forge the Sky …though, I’m fairly positive that my “buckthorn” and yours are not the same. I have seen “common buckthorn/european buckthorn”, but have only seen references to “glossy” buckthorn, but no pictures. I suspect I have the latter. Whichever, these things are gnarly MF’ers. The first time you hack them down, there aren’t many thorns. First time they come back up, they’ve got MORE thorns. Hack them down again, and they come back with even MORE, and BIGGER thorns. It seems, the more you beat them, the “angrier” they get. Go figure. I almost want to keep beating… Read more »
sjfrellc
May 20th, 2015 at 7:59 pm
Forgot to add: take a shower between now and June 1st. It will make you feel better.
_______
Hey watch it there buddy, will ya? A blogger got bullied off The Spearhead for suggesting men up our grooming and hygiene game. Careful!
@ Softek In the US there is a ‘dietary supplement’ called SAMe (s-adenosyl methionine) that is the world’s most effective antidepressant. There have been many properly controlled clinical studies showing that at 1600mg/day it is as effective or more effective than the gold standard of anti-depressant efficacy – the old tricyclics. Yet it has a completely natural feel to it and instead of side effects it has side benefits like liver protection, anti-arthritis and possibly anti-aging effects. My experience is that taking 800mg twice a day on an empty stomach has a robust anti-depressant effect in a few days, even… Read more »
“There was a kerfuffle where a couple women made a false accusation against a presenter Jack Kruse on a Paleo Cruise event to get him banned from presenting,” Livin’ la vida low carb, are ya? “A few weeks ago, a Twitter account popped up called Sh*tKruseSays that parodied Kruse’s manner of communication, often with direct quotes. If you were in the know, these were entertaining and made for a light chuckle in the slushpile of Tweets. But then, just as the boat was getting ready to embark, police raided Kruse’s cabin and removed him from the ship. Why? It appears… Read more »
You can use the Costco pharmacy without a Costco card. Just pay for the SAMe at the pharmacy counter.
http://paleoperiodical.com/2012/05/08/jack-kruse-and-the-paleo-train-wreck/
Insanity addressing Rollo – “Do you believe that men benefit from being told that love is not real? Do you think it is healthy to endlessly encourage men to dehumanize women? Whether you intend to do those things are not, that is the end result as evidenced by your comment sections.” About 30 years ago, I would have agreed with Insanity. 30 years ago I was quite insane. I believed in the “love” insanity references. Her reference itself discloses her chicanery. Love cannot be held hostage as she attempts. Love is not bribery. She is essentially saying “if you men… Read more »
Dealing with Insanity is like teaching a chimp to use an ATM. You can do it, but,… If she had any intelligent curiosity about my writing on love she’d know I advocate much the opposite. It’s easier to pick up on what simplistic minds have convinced her than to actually read my posts: http://therationalmale.com/2015/01/05/the-love-experience/ Find me one instance where I’ve ever told any man “love is not real”. She can’t do it, because I never have. In fact I get run up the flag pole for telling men they can experience ‘love’, but in a context based on men and… Read more »
“You have the Red Pill confused with MRAs Insanity.”
What’s insane about trying to reverse misandrist laws?
@kfg
“I Told You To Go Ahead And Fuck Those Vegetables” 😉
http://freetheanimal.com/2011/01/i-told-you-to-go-ahead-and-fuck-those-vegetables.html
I think that the good girl strategy is very often a way to cover up an emotional problem. Being a virgin in today’s world is not the path of least resistance. Its not frowned upon until a woman is 30 or so, but it certainly is not the norm, even at 20. Most people that buck the trends are not that way because of enlightment, as us fine gentleman are. Most people that go against the grain do so because they are “odd” in some way. Man hater. Raised by a single mom that hates men. Self esteem. Abuse. Raised… Read more »
@Softek – When nothing gives you joy, that’s a sign of deep depression. What I do when I get that depressed is see a doc and get a script for an SSRI or some other anti-depressant. Perhaps Jack La Bear’s reco above could be tried but I do know that it’s quite hard to shake that feeling without some external help. Yes, SSRIs suck but they will kick you out of it and then you’ve got to stop them. I do them for 3-5 months when this happens to me. Also, when you talk about suicide, I listen to it… Read more »
I’ll add one more reason for the “good girl” strategy: She’s of average SMV, and extremely fearful of competing against the prettier girls in both the SMP and the MMP. My Ex wife is an example of this.
Forge the Sky, I haven’t given up and I’m still searching, that’s why I read the comments. Plus I’m getting paid at work right now and I read everything about any topic that catches my interest. If you met me in real life you would never suspect I feel this way. The game of life is so easy when you have no more fucks to give. People sense that you don’t need their validation and for stupid reasons they try to qualify themselves to you. I’m the life of the party when I go and the one people seek out… Read more »
Not Born this Morning,
” love keeps no record of wrongs, love does not judge,”
Bull. Sentimental crap. The deepest love known to humankind is that of a parent to a child. That love has to keep record and judge so to do whats right by the child in bringing him/her up properly. A love without judgement is no love at all but merely indifference.
@Vulpine – Reading more of your commentary, I think I get that you are making broader points about our technological society and how it’s less tactile, kinetic and alienating from our surroundings. I love nature and camping and many other outdoor pursuits, and moved to the country to be closer to it all. I was reacting initially to the seeming anti-modern vibe I got from your comments, and particularly your fetishization of growing your own food. I think it’s ridiculous to think that one can’t be happy if they don’t grow their own food etc. Preferences matter, and for example,… Read more »
“I Told You To Go Ahead And Fuck Those Vegetables”
– Says the man who has a salad has his blog header and loves Indian food.
“I think that the good girl strategy is very often a way to cover up an emotional problem. Being a virgin in today’s world is not the path of least resistance. ”
– What would be the point exactly in remaining virgin into adulthood?
@Mad Yale Grad “You have the Red Pill confused with MRAs Insanity.” What’s insane about trying to reverse misandrist laws? That’s a fairly trite attempt at a straw man, since abolishing (not reversing) bad laws is never insane, and no one here is arguing against that. The insanity of the MRA’s is believing that the solution to bad law exists within the system of laws. It’s a bit like expecting the solution to faster-than-light travel in the basic laws of motion. Bad laws, just like any law, are born from cultural change that became pervasive from unchallenged lies. Instead of… Read more »
@Jeremy, that post was directed at insanity’strite, MYG isn’t paying attention
@ Jack I’ve heard of SAM-e, but haven’t tried it yet. I’ll have to look into that. It’s right up my alley, since I’ve been super resistant to Rx meds since I started cutting myself and having suicidal thoughts AFTER I started Lexapro, and things got even worse when they put me on Zyprexa too. I think they started me on Lexapro when I was 12 and I’m convinced that the medications I was on long-term seriously affected my brain and its development, and not in a good way. A cursory search on SAM-e related to MTHFR mutation, which I… Read more »
@Vulpine I’ve spent the last five years trading stories, learning and meeting friends virtually and in real life with like-minded enthusiasm for deer habitat on The Michichan Sportsman’s forum (The Whitetail Habitat Section). It has usually had robust discussions in threads. It is interesting how it has gotten slightly more boring lately and I think a lot of guys are going offline and hanging out with others in real life. I know my group is. If you get a User Name (I checked, Vulpine is not taken) and password by joining the forum, you can look up some tall tales… Read more »
“I Told You To Go Ahead And Fuck Those Vegetables”
“Says the man who has a salad as his blog header and loves Indian food.”
And potatoes. He loves him those baked taters. And its shows.
Google Richard Nikoley photos. He’s no spokeman for paleo.
You mean there wasn’t a double-entendre in there?
softek, “I’ve heard of SAM-e, but haven’t tried it yet. I’ll have to look into that. It’s right up my alley, since I’ve been super resistant to Rx meds since I started cutting myself and having suicidal thoughts AFTER I started Lexapro, and things got even worse when they put me on Zyprexa too. I think they started me on Lexapro when I was 12 and I’m convinced that the medications I was on long-term seriously affected my brain and its development, and not in a good way.” – Those young people who shoot up schools, malls, cinemas, etc. Guess… Read more »
Forge What kind of grapes and roughly where? Here in the Southern usa we have the muscadine which is native but I hear tell there are European grapes that do well in new york and the upper left coast…. Not a fan of grapes or wine, but I do enjoy the sweet wines made from muscadines on occasion. I do some bootlegging, but I buy the corn, sugar, yeast etc. MGTOW hate is interesting to me. Mostly because no one has yet made a decent argument for the hate etc. Or generated a decent set of incentives to get the… Read more »
“I’ll add one more reason for the “good girl” strategy: She’s of average SMV, and extremely fearful of competing against the prettier girls in both the SMP and the MMP. My Ex wife is an example of this.”
Good point.
Although the girl I am specifically thinking about was on the higher end of the smv, her self esteem was not. She did not realize how attractive she was.
@ Glenn I still have a psychiatrist. One of my main problems has been cheating myself out of treatment because of intense fear — I never mention that I’m suicidal because I’m afraid I’ll end up back in the mental hospital. My fear of SSRI’s might also be irrational. I had a horrible experience on them growing up but maybe now it would be different. I have a very hard time getting treated because I’m so secretive even in therapy. I’m afraid if I admit the severity of what I’m going through then they’ll send me to a residential mental… Read more »
@SFC Ton
There is no decent argument. But of course, to the FI, any man who isn’t a willing seed dispensary, eager to impregnate and enslave themselves to women who can throw them in jail on a mere accusation simply hates women.
MGTOW isn’t hate. But to modern women who have never experienced anything other than total control over reproduction, it sure must seem like it.
Richard Nikoley consistently argues in favor of veggies, plants and even dairy on his blog. He argues in favor of high carb taters. He is not paleo. Paleo is meat and veggies only, no dairy, no grains, no taters. Its fine that he’s not paleo. Hey I love taters and dairy too. And of course its possible to be perfectly healthy without being paleo, but he’s riding the wave of this paleo fad to gain fame and money for himself, and he’s not even paleo. Plus he’s unfit and overweight. Not a good look for a supposed “health and weight… Read more »
@Jacklabear, Softek I have the good fortune of having a father who owns a supplement company, and I blog about supplements/nutrition. I use SAMe myself sometimes. It’s a great supplement, more powerful than the subtler, slow-burn effects you get from most herbs and supplements, and it has a good safety and evidence base. It’s basically giving your body more of an endogenous chemical that it uses for certain detoxification and neurotransmitter-development pathways (it’s a precursor to glutathione and serotonin, for a start). But it must be taken with vitamins B6 and B12 or it will be nearly worthless (look it… Read more »
@SFC Ton: “The world is a strange place most days”
People are crazy and times are strange,
I’m locked in tight, I’m out of range,
I used to care, . . .
. . . but things have changed.
It took me a while to figure out that when the Steady Eddy Cubicle Jockeys get busy blasting Bad Boys, they aren’t, for the most part, talking about thugs and gang bangers, but are actually MGTOW shaming.
Like MGTOW ever cared in the first place.
“I’d love to be a rugged individualist. I grew up watching shows with protagonists like that and became obsessed with the idea of becoming almost superhuman”
Trans-humanists are working with the bio-tech sector to make your dream come true.
Are MGTOWs Luddites? To really go your own way you got to get off the grid, out of the system, and not pay taxes.
@ Reasonablefacsimile I do have one friend, but he’s an escapist like me — and it bothers me a lot when I go over and all he’ll do is play videogames or go online and we don’t interact much. My friend I talk to online once in a while who moved to another state years ago also complained of the same thing. He thought he’d find people to connect with at school, people who were in the same program as him. But even in graduate school he can’t find anyone. He says that he gets along better with people that… Read more »
Interesting discussion about ‘good girls’. I’ll just add this in disagreement to something said – they tend to be girls who value themselves highly and have extremely high standards. They are proud of keeping their N as low as possible. I’ve never known a ‘good girl’ to have low self-esteem or be a man-hater. (Just to clarify I don’t mean the ‘good girl game’ persona, I’m talking about the real thing.) Keep in mind the millennials are generally losing it later and having less sex than we older folks did. I think a big part of this is they can… Read more »
“Are MGTOWs Luddites?”
No.
Here he argues in favor of beans. BEANS!!!
http://freetheanimal.com/2015/05/eating-nutrients-bulletproof.html
I love me some black eyed peas too but I’m not hawking my wares in the paleo market.
Really, how this guy ever got accepted in the paleo cult is beyond me. He is NOT paleo!!!!
Oh, and perhaps more urgently –
@Softek
I agree with Glenn here. You’re kinda scaring me with your comments today bro. It’s great to experiment with alternative options when you’re in a better place, but if you’re thinking this much about suicide you need to get whatever professional and personal help that you can.
@ MYG The med thing is huge, yes. I almost ended up like one of those guys back when I was in school. Ha. I actually had a CD with this song on it in my car and would listen to it on my way to college every day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYQXMf48Io8 The Lexapro and Zyprexa were not kind to me. I don’t know how much of it was the meds and how much of it was the rest of my life but I was MAJORLY fucked up as a teenager. Part of why I had trouble making friends was I was… Read more »
LSCS
May 21st, 2015 at 5:56 pm
“I’ll add one more reason for the “good girl” strategy: She’s of average SMV, and extremely fearful of competing against the prettier girls in both the SMP and the MMP.”
__________________
Obviously she’s aiming for men 2-4 points higher than her. If she aims lower, like just 1 point higher, she’ll be able to compete well. I wouldn’t suggest she aim for her SMV equal or lower. She can aim higher, by one point, and still win.
Luddites rebelled against technology to preserve their usefulness.
MGTOW rebelled against the FI to preserve their dignity.
SOFTEK, bro, I told you before, find a Buddhist community in your area. They tend to be male dominated. You’ll learn some good mind stuff and develop a brotherhood. Try meetup.com . That’s where I found a sangha when I moved here. Its a great site for finding a community of like minded individuals with similar interests in and around your zip code. “Luddites rebelled against technology to preserve their usefulness. MGTOW rebelled against the FI to preserve their dignity.” OK but technology today serves the FI. At some point they’ll really have to go their own way – ALL… Read more »
Technology doesn’t serve the FI, but the technologies that have been chosen were indeed chosen by the FI. The clearest example of that is the 20+ methods of female birth control, and the 2 (one permanent) for men that are allowed in the developed world.
Technology is the domain of men, the mistake is letting the FI choose.
@ Forge the Sky I do have to get over my fear of opening up in therapy. I’m just so terrified he’s going to call the police on me for being suicidal, and I’ll have another episode like when they showed up at 3:30 in the morning and scared the shit out of me, started going through my e-mails and all that. Even on a more basic level, I have a very hard time asserting myself. I feel like the therapy hasn’t been helping, he’s been too passive and not giving enough suggestions….but I don’t say anything. I just go… Read more »
Jack Le Bear, I left some comments about Rich Nikoley on the previous page. Not to belabor the point but the link you provided was from 4 years ago. He has since done a 180. He now promotes dairy, beans, grains, high carb taters – you name it, and has been for at least the last few years. My take is that strict paleo was just too hard, too disciplined for him. Just look at him – he’s a soft guy, like play dough. I know its tough, I’m not paleo myself, BUT I’m also not trying to mint coin… Read more »
“He is NOT paleo!!!!”
I’m not really Paleo -Richard Nikoley
Well there’s just no slipping anything past you, is there?
softek, “Reaching out to MEN is my focus now. ”
1. meetup.com
2. your zip code
3. a Buddhist gathering
kfg
May 21st, 2015 at 7:10 pm
“He is NOT paleo!!!!”
I’m not really Paleo -Richard Nikoley
Well there’s just no slipping anything past you, is there?
_______
Why did he hitch his wagon to the Paleo Train then? $$$$$$$
@bodusafa (same as Reasonablefacsimile?), thanks for being real. I’ve been quite the idealist myself, and ya, this is a tough row to hoe. I’m sure you’ve read them if you’re this deep in a comment thread, but be sure to review Rollo’s posts ‘Mental Point of Origin’ and ‘A New Hope.’ I can tell you from my own experience that this shit does get better; you’re still stuck in your old assumptions about what sorts of things you can draw meaning from, little as you may realize it. My advice is simply: do shit! Experience! Don’t be a dumbass, but… Read more »
“Why did he hitch his wagon to the Paleo Train then? ”
Because he is capable of self-reflection and changing his views, which is also why he unhitched his wagon again.
I would expect anyone capable of self-reflection to understand that.
Ton
I’m in the middle of Michigan. Tried to grow concords, which are apparently indestructible, no dice. European varieties were even worse.
Apparently Michigan State University is hard at work trying to make Michigan-specific varieties of wine grape since we have a fairly robust winemaking industry trying to emerge here. But my problem is alkaline soil, maybe I just need to acidify it somehow.
Nikoley reminds me of that other elderly atheist Randophile blogger who fancies himself a poet-philosopher who tried to hitch his wagon to not only the Paleo Scene, but Anthony Dream Johnson’s 21Convention (and by extension the Manosphere/PUAsphere) audience
@Softek,
It’s hard to tell people what you’re really feeling when you have so much experience censoring everything so they approve of you. Been there, maybe only 10% as much as you though lol. It’s amazing how much more you can do and connect with the people around you when you lose that though.
For now, just do the best you can. You’ve been through a shit-ton, don’t let this beat ya.
Just chiming in to note that, in real life conversations as well as this very comment thread, the men are usually stating their case from experience (heartbreaks and successes alike) while the girlies like to get all worked up about hypotheticals (scary men, maybe you’d get laid if… etc.). There’s a stark tonal difference between the guys here sharing as much of themselves as they are willing versus the hysterical line-toeing and scare-mongering that so many keyboard divas love resorting to as if they’ve only ever communicated via punditry on a panel (complete with the show’s producer barking commands into… Read more »
@Softek I got an idea for you. Go out and interact with people. Go out and offer something to someone else for nothing. Do it with the time you otherwise would have wasted. Offer to cut someones grass when they are behind schedule. If they offer you a refreshing beverage, then sit on their porch talk to them for 15 minutes and then leave. Offer to help a friend move if you know they need help. Offer to help a band set up for a gig. Work on chords with a guitarist that needs help. Help someone chop firewood. Ask… Read more »
kfc, “Because he is capable of self-reflection and changing his views, which is also why he unhitched his wagon again. I would expect anyone capable of self-reflection to understand that.” – He’s a flakey extremist opportunistic fraud. His idea of “paleo” was wrong from the get go. An extremist rant against veggies? Really? Paleo is nothing but veggies and meat. That’s it. Plants and flesh. I even saw during that newbie stage back in 2011 how he was arguing that veggies did not have any significant nutrient content! And he was claiming “paleo”. What a joke! Paleo proved too difficult… Read more »
I have to say that it’s interesting that people use The Rational Male’s comment sections as their personal blogging platform, but I also believe it waters down overall down the message of Rollo’s post. I typed up a substantive response, but with 419 comments, it’s not worth only speaking the people who read hundreds of internet comments.
@Slothrop, post it. I read every one.
Get back on topic.
BTW, as a result of the support here I phoned my friend and hounded him a bit about wanting to work for him. I made it very clear that I want to commit to this come hell or high water. I’ve hesitated for years about this and have just stayed complacent at a job that sucks. I’ve worked very little with him. I’ve been afraid of failing, that I won’t be able to meet his standards, etc. But I’m just going to dive into it. Now that I’m leaving my job it’ll be the best time to do it. This… Read more »
Heh, I read your mind while you were making that last post.
@Slothrop’
Comments are growing with each post. It’s mostly a good thing… I guess. I’m thinking of building my own cedar sauna now anyway.
But I’m skimming through the comments because I’m interested in what guys think. If the nutrition/mountain man stuff is too long, just buzz past it.
So post away my friend.
softek, bro, man, my brother – we have all given you some solid, tangible advice. Please do it. Something. At least one thing. We don’t want you to off yourself, mate. We want you to breath and thrive bro. Please go to http://www.meetup.com and find some mens’ meetups in your area. Reach out. The help is there. The brotherhood is there – OFFLINE.
@ Slothrop I think it’s the nature of the comment section. This problem happened on a health blog I used to frequent. Getting off topic is just par for the course when you have an open comment section. A forum with specific topics is really the only way to go to keep things organized and fully readable. One hope I do have, although it’s probably pointless to have it, is that people will notice the meta-level here: We’re drawn to this site because of TRP and the message it provides. For all the OT discussions, it’s still even tangentially related… Read more »
@CaveClown, others re: good girls Good observation that the good girl strategy is often a red flag nowadays. People who are different are occasionally exceptional people, but more often they just have issues. My anecdotal experience – my first serious relationship was with a girl who tried to pull this game. She was a bit incongruent with it tho, so even back in my BP days I was a bit suspicious of it. And yeah, she had issues – she didn’t seem to think that she was a good/valuable person, so she tried desperately to make you think she was.… Read more »
Slothrop May 21st, 2015 at 7:37 pm I have to say that it’s interesting that people use The Rational Male’s comment sections as their personal blogging platform, but I also believe it waters down overall down the message of Rollo’s post. I typed up a substantive response, but with 419 comments, it’s not worth only speaking the people who read hundreds of internet comments. _____ Sounds like you want to be the center. Join the club and post like the rest of us. Some will read, some will not. But you’ll have expressed yourself and the people who will appreciate… Read more »
“Good observation that the good girl strategy is often a red flag nowadays. People who are different are occasionally exceptional people, but more often they just have issues.”
Who the hell doesn’t have issues in this country? Even people who come from stable, healthy, happy families (not many Americans do these days), who give them no cause for “issues” whatsoever, will get their issues in public or private school, or just by growing up here.
@softek and Forge the sky Yes bodusafa is me, for some reason it used my email. The truth is Im suffering apathy and detachment. I work out in one of the most beautiful places in the world, snowboard all over the place and pretty much do whatever I feel like. Im very blessed after a rough start to life. I just dont see how I can do this for 50 or so more years. Its already getting boring because I have nothing to fight for. Ive had the sex, the adventures, love, heartbreak, the drugs and climbed out of poverty… Read more »
@All — Just expressing guilt at wasting my time with internet comments. It’s time to get back to work. Lots of stuff I could have responded to though. This post is 3 days old, and I’ll try to jump before the conversations have already started.
Some relief. She’s putting eye shadow on her boobs.
@ bodusafa
I don’t know if this koan will help you at all, but it’s helped me a lot with feelings of apathy and detachment:
—————-
A lord asked Takuan, a Zen Teacher, to suggest how he might pass the time. He felt his days very long attending his office and sitting stiffly to receive the homage of others.
Takuan wrote eight Chinese characters and gave them to the man:
Not twice this day
Inch time foot gem.
This day will not come again.
Each minute is worth a priceless gem.
What I tell my closest female friends is, ” I’m better than you by virtue of being born male ‘. They’ve heard that from me for years so I get no pushback at this point. To paraphrase Patrice O’neill – The best female basketball player in the world could be beaten by the bench riding NBA player. The fastest Olympic female sprinter will be blown off the track by an Olympic male sprinter. Now that’s Equalism for your ass. What’s the endgame for all of the equality between the sexes? Mass media and communication ( internet ) is like a… Read more »
…I can’t be in to separate places simultaneously ergo it’s not possible for me to be in her frame and mine.
Should read TWO separate places…etc. Whew, coffee time.
“Young hot women primed to want casual sex by the culture ”
The culture? Its sex hormones, mate.
Emily,
“Odd enough, since he’s known her, EVERY single one of his efforts to date other women has failed. When his pursuits of other women fail, gosh golly, guess who’s always there to “help” him see the light? Yup. Our friends are pretty much convinced she’s doing some sort of hocus-pocus voodoo on the guy to dupe him into marrying her. He’s her means to an end. ”
Your friends believe in voodoo? Why? Just why?
@ NBTM – “Insanitybytes22 is just one of three hundred million cockroaches who are scurrying around after Rollo turned on the lights.”
Yep – exactly that.
During my ‘giddy phase’ of unplugging, I couldn’t help myself and constantly blurted out a lot of RP truths to women I was either screwing or knew in my life. It made for some interesting reactions of women that were torn between wanting to fuck me and being repulsed/paranoid/shocked by my RP knowledge.
It scared them shitless that I had the schematic diagram to a faulty circuit board.
Re: Good girls. My definition of how ” good ” a girl/woman is boils down to how much they are willing to submit and how much of a problem they have with guidance and direction. Usually fucking a chick doesn’t tell me who she is. It just tells me whether I like her sex game or not. Granted, a low N count is desirable, but not when it’s connected to a crazy psycho harpy. When I was out there trying to catch women, I didn’t put a lot of stock into the good girl thing. I can’t count how many… Read more »
Had some interesting conversation last night with a buddy of mine. He is a few years younger than me, married young and regretting it now with a baby on the way. He recently started banging a cute little 23 year old on the side. Not red pill aware yet, but he is starting to come around based on his own experiences and our conversations. He works with my ex and it’s been a while since we’ve had a chance to hang out so he wanted the rundown on what had happened. I filled him in and the conversation turned to… Read more »