Building Better Worlds

building_worlds

I had an interesting conversation this week with my good friend Ray and a couple of my designers, Sadie and Sam (names changed to protect the innocent). Just a little background first; Sadie is the Japanese woman I mention in Mental Point of Origin. She’s been divorced once and her relationship history is one punctuated by her involvement with Beta men.

She’s is the definition of the opportunistic concept of female love, but her frustration comes from never having been able to consolidate on an optimized Hypergamy – she simply doesn’t have attractiveness or feminine pleasantry to generate the Alpha interest that would satisfy her. Thus, she attracts Beta orbiters looking for some low hanging fruit, and force-fits them into a contextual Alpha frame. In other words, she opportunistically entertains the Betas with provisioning potential and hopes they’ll man up into dominant Alphas. Thus far she’s been disappointed.

Sam is a gay man in his early 30s who makes a good living afforded by not having children and possessing a high calibre technical skill set. He’s got the outgoing, “look at me, I’m special because I’m gay” exuberance I expect from gay men, but he’s not flamboyant and can still be professional when he has to be. He’s been “dating” a new guy for a while now and has moved this guy into his home recently. He took part in our conversation because the issues of sharing resources, money and picking up half the rent (in his case mortgage) in a relationship came up.

Ray has been one of my best friends for over 15 years now and he’s the guy I mention in Good Girls Do. He’s worked for me directly or indirectly for most of that time and he’s notorious for starting conversations like this when we have downtime. He’s a firestarter, it’s what I like about him, and among the three he’s the only one who knows my online reputation. Ray is Red Pill aware so he knows how to prompt a controversial conversation with me when we’re in mixed company.

Ray: “RT, hypothetical question…”

RT: “Do I have to?”

Ray: “Let’s say you move your girlfriend in with you…”

RT: “Let’s say I don’t and I would never do that. End of hypothetical.”

Ray: “No, I know, but, say you did, and let’s say your rent is $1,000 a month. Would you tell your girlfriend ‘Hey the rent is $1,000 a month how about you pay $300 and I’ll pay $700 or would you say 50/50?”

RT: “No. I’d pay it all myself. I’d also be sure that only my name was on the lease.”

Sadie:”What? Why, that’s silly?”

Ray: “You wouldn’t expect any contribution?”

RT: “No. I wouldn’t turn it down if she took it upon herself to contribute, but I wouldn’t expect it from a girl I (foolishly) brought into my living arrangement.”

Sadie: “You wouldn’t expect her to pay half?”

RT: “No. If I can’t provide my own $1,000 rent or food, or to keep the lights on, I have no business bringing a woman into that arrangement. If I have more than enough for myself I don’t need her paying. Besides, if she’s that into living with me, she’ll want to contribute in other ways and I wont have to ask.”

Sam: “You don’t think it should be an equal split? Maybe that’s a man and a woman thing…”

RT: “Yes and no. I’m sure between you and your boyfriend there’s a more dominant personality right?”

Sam: “Yeah, me.”

RT: “And you probably make more money too. So there’s really no ‘equality’ when it comes down to it.”

Sadie: “I expect my boyfriend to pay half the rent.”

RT: “Of course you do, because women think in terms of equality when it works to their advantage. What if your ‘boyfriend’ could pay for all the rent, utilities and most of everything else? Would you still try to pay half?”

Sadie: “Yes of course.”

RT: “What if he only paid just half and you knew it was a better deal for him?

Sadie: (tentative) “Yes,…”

RT: “I doubt that, but what you’re saying is that you’d limit improving your way of life to maintain a belief in equality.”

Sadie: “All the guy’s I’ve lived with have been mooches.”

RT: “Which explains why you’re not living with them any more. It goes both ways, women don’t respect men they need to support. All this stuff about equality in relationships is nonsense.If your boyfriend could easily make rent while you struggled to come up with it you’d resent him for it. There is no equal division.”

Sam: “I guess I see what you’re saying, but the expectation is still the same even for me and [boyfriend].

RT: “There is no equality in a relationship, but there can be complementarity where either person’s benefits can offset the needs of the other.”

Ray: “So you and Mrs. T aren’t 50/50?”

RT: “Ray, I make about 4 times the money that she does, how is there ever going to be anything like equality with that kind of balance?”

Ray: “But what about chores and shit?”

RT: “I take care of the outside of the house, she takes care of the inside. I do the smelly dirty jobs, she keeps the fresh cleaning ones, it’s not rocket science.”

Sam: “Sounds like you just want to stay in the power position.”

RT: “Yes, but it’s only a power play if you’re exploiting your partner. Women like to say they want an equal partner, but they don’t, do they Sadie? They want someone to respect and look up to. So when that comes down to numbers, to money, what’s really holding you together? Love? Mutual interests? (at Sam) Right now you can’t help but be the more dominant one in your relationship. So do you stop being so just to balance things? Do you expect [boyfriend] to pick up the slack more?

The Cardinal Rule of Relationships

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

This principle isn’t so much about ‘power’ as it is about control. This might sound like semantics, but it makes a difference. It’s very easy to slip into binary arguments and think that what I mean by the cardinal rule of relationships is that one participant must absolutely rule over the other – a domineering dominant to a doormat submissive. Control in a healthy relationship passes back and forth as desire and need dictate for each partner. In an unhealthy relationship you have an unbalanced manipulation of this control by a partner. Although control is never in complete balance, it becomes manipulation when one partner, in essence blackmails, the other with what would otherwise be a reinforcer for the manipulated under a healthy circumstance. This happens for a plethora different reasons, but the condition comes about by two ways – the submissive participant becomes conditioned to allow the manipulation to occur and/or the dominate initiates the manipulation. In either case the rule still holds true – the one who needs the other the least has the most control. Nowhere is this more evident than in interpersonal relationships.

When I was writing this post many years ago I hadn’t fully considered how this rule interacts with, and contradicts, many of the tenets of egalitarian equalism. The idealistic state of that equalism is one in which two co-equal, yet independent people come together in a perfect union of balance. In theory that balance should account for resources, emotional investment, family considerations, as well as intellectual and social status aspects of either partner.

These considerations alone should be enough to illustrate equalitarianism as the manipulative farce it is, however, all we really need to do is take into account the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. It’s very easy to be accused of being controlling when you embrace the truth of this rule – and particularly so when the reigning social undercurrent is one in which everyone ought to be co-equal rational actors.

I expected to have that leveled at me in this conversation, but it’s important to bear in mind the real nature of power. By my own definition, power is the degree of control we exercise over the direction of our own lives. As I mentioned, I don’t mind being the more powerful partner in terms of resources in my marriage because I accept that stupid notions of maintaining anything like “equality” is simply infeasible. I know more than a few men who’ve sold their lives’ potential away in the belief that they should lessen themselves in order to support a more balanced, equalist ideal. Ultimately their relationships, marriages and families suffer because they never own that potential – just the idea of owning it is a source of guilt and shame.

For all of the bleating about more equitability being needed between men and women. the fundamental truth is that it’s neither a realistic nor workable state. I’ve used money for my illustration here, but this applies to many other facets of an intersexual relationship. From an equalist perspective this sounds a lot like a want for creating a condition of dependency, but in truth it is an unachievable state of egalitarianism that creates a never-satisfied state of dependency.

Her World or Yours?

If you go back and look at the video from Bachelor Nation you can see the dichotomy that presumptions of “equality” sows in western(izing) women today. Within the first 6 minutes of the video we see the internal contradictions inherent in women. There is a want for an idealized equal pairing, but yet a desire for a man to be a Man. The documentary finds the root of this dichotomy in modern resource imbalances between the sexes, and makes the predictable appeal to men not living up to their burden of performance. The male shame comes in contrasting women’s taking on what should be men’s performance burdens – the male obligation to which ironically flies in the face of anything like true egalitarian equalism.

Stay-at-home dads, house husbands, and anything relatable will always have a stigma attached to them in spite of any weak attempts to make them socially acceptable. That stigma is founded in a limbic-level understanding of men’s burden of performance; to be a Man is not just to produce sustainable resources, but to provide a surplus of those resources.

I recently read a poll sponsored by Forbes magazine that listed men’s top goals in life and for the first time in that poll’s history “a good physique” outranked all personal and financial ambitions for top executives. The predictable shame then followed that men aren’t “Manning Up” any more, and they’ve become vain, self-absorbed narcissists for a new focus on what image they present.

The obvious Red Pill conclusion is of course a realignment with the prevailing social perceptions (courtesy of the Feminine Imperative I might add) that women are out-earning men financially and educationally; thus the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy takes precedent. If America’s top execs are heeding the message of Open Hypergamy, why bother establishing yourself financially, academically, ambition-wise or otherwise?

The problem with this equation is evident in the Bachelor Nation video. I can understand the sentiments of MGTOW; if the opinions expressed by the quality of woman represented in the video are any indicator of a female zeitgeist it makes the idea of abandoning the Game altogether that much more appealing.

That said, and I’m going to dare to get prescriptive here, I believe that establishing yourself as an independent Man should be your top priority. I have no doubt that that sentiment will get convoluted with feminism’s Strong Independent Woman® meme, but lets clarify something first – the ideal that men ought to be strong and independent has always been the precursor to his quality as a man. Independence, self-sufficiency and determined ambitions have always been the hallmarks of a man comfortable with his burden of performance. Only in women is independence a novelty.

Yet now, in men, this independence is not just a novelty, but it’s been distorted into being an obsessive-compulsive sign of a man’s imagined insecurities. The very strength and independence men have always been expected to embody is the domain of women, while any hope for it from men is a sign of a fragile ego.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #1

Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of who’s frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are.

I firmly believe Alpha is a mindset. That mindset can get the poorest son-of-a-bitch laid with the right application, tact and circumstance. That’s a tough pill to swallow when you work your ass off in the belief that your affluence and status should be the metric Alpha is judged by and women respond to. That’s also not to say affluence and status won’t get you laid by their own merit, it’s just the context in which that happens that makes the difference. There are many men who’ve found their retroactive cuckolding after having based their personal successes on the presumption that those successes should be the basis of his quality to women.

The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of  frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it. The forces that influence that lack or boost of will is irrelevant – just know that the conditions of an operative framework will shift because of them.

We can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a MGTOW perspective, it’s important for a Man to have a world into which a woman might enter. Not for her sake, but for a Man’s edification.

Establish your world; you shall make your mission, not your woman your priority. Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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GhostOfJefferson
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@Cave I lift in order to get what I want from women, nothing wrong with that. Perfectly legit and honest. See a desired goal, figure out the obstacles to overcome to achieve the goal, surmount obstacles, achieve goal. I think many make the mistake of being too binary. That is “If you’re working out and want to have sex with women, then that is your only goal in life, sperge sperge sperge”. Why is that? Why not work out for one goal, improve your mind for another goal, enjoy your work because it fulfills other needs, etc? We are complex… Read more »

Fanny Farthing
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Thank you, Rollo, for yet another enlightening article.

CaveClown
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I don’t believe the point of the red pill is to reject social constructs.

I believe the point is to see them for what they are, and then use them to your advantage.

“In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king” and all that.

Neo unplugs from the matrix, and then uses a program, “the construct” to reenter the matrix and further his agenda.

But if you wish to use your knowledge to move to Zion, stay out of the matrix, and build a house out of coconut shells…go for it.

Vulpine
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GhostOfGeorgeJefferson, Before you try to re-assert the green-ness of your trees, go back and read up about the forest, Forrest. You’re seriously clowning yourself at this point. Go back, read it slower. _______ CaveClown, You’re quickly rowing GOJ’s boat. It’s understood that big muscles are attractive and whatnot. That’s not the point… _______ Moreover, in this context, in this venue, I can’t imagine anyone giving a fuck why either of you workout: it’s understood why health matters. Meanwhile, I’m done trying to enlighten you dolts, I’m going fishing. Free food is out there just waiting for me to pick it… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
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@Vulpine Ad hominem, which explicitly implies that you wish for us to adopt your way of thinking, all the while you are telling us not to give a fuck. Weird isn’t it? We’d have to give a fuck about your analysis to adopt it after all. The circularity, wee. You assume some kind of silly moral and intellectual superiority over a simple choice you have made. So you don’t work out. Good for you. Others do. Why the fuck do you care? Further, why should we care if you care? Because you might call us dolts? Oh noooes. Next, please… Read more »

CaveClown
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Make sure you go to your favorite discount big-box retailer before your fishing trip, makes fishing easier when you buy all the gear to fish with.

If you still want your food to be free, you’ll probably have to steal the supplies though.

Maybe we’ll see you on youtube or liveleak, running out of a walmart with an arm full of tackle?

Catch one for me!

Jeremy
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That’s just a bizarre conversation.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oCAJGJguR_c/UMi6AiCAIlI/AAAAAAAANpM/6YzuCGTAMRs/s1600/Motivational-Exercises-01.jpg

Working out is part of building yourself a man. Building yourself as a man is what you must do, it is your toil, it is what makes you. You can separate yourself from women all you want, but you’ll still be building yourself as a man. You may want to separate yourself as much as you can from the FI, that’s fine. But on what basis can ongoing self-improvement be regarded as anything other than positive?

GhostOfJefferson
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Indeed Rollo. And I am a bit confused on how spending a bit of time in the gym every week means that I am somehow neglecting other things that bring me pleasure in life? In fact, how doesn’t working out bring me pleasure, as I seem to remember there is a very real effect of a “high” with serious athletes, a visceral and craved pleasure. What if I value that more than, for example, gluing shells on the beach together? Should I eschew the weightlifting so that I can validate somebody else’s pleasure mechanism? Makes no sense. Sex is great,… Read more »

kfg
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Just back from an hour of active recovery on the bike. I would have liked to do more, as it’s the first week of full green here in the north country and I was enjoying myself immensely, but wisdom (enhanced by a twinge between the shoulder blades) prevailed. @GhostOfJefferson ” . . . as healthy and fit as an average person was in the year 1965 . . .” I remember that as about the time people discovered what rotten shape civilization had gotten them in (although the same had been discovered in the late 1800s). Just after the President’s… Read more »

Glenn
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@Vulpine – You sure do like to hear yourself talk, doncha? Your line of analysis can be thought of as “Luddite” or worshipping the pastoral life or ultimately as a rejection of modernity. In fact, for those of us who do work other than manual labor, the need for exercise is paramount. I know, you would re-design the world so everyone does physical labor and grows their own food and become Adonis like through the magic of your thinking. Lol. And of course, the life you believe we should all live used to be common – and men lived to… Read more »

Glenn
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@Rollo – This is a really great exploration of equalism (egalitarian equalism is redundant unless you can explain how it isn’t). While I will not take this thread into politics, one has to understand how the notion of “fairness” is tied to the equalism fetish. And of course, all these recent sill ideas about equality and fairness arise from leftist political and moral philosophy, starting with say Bentham and Mills in our modern world. Now our society reeks of it because people are programmed from birth to believe that something called “equality” is achievable in society. And since Rawls A… Read more »

kfg
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“But the political ideas at work arise from something much more sinister in human nature than the FI as well, namely jealousy and sloth.”

One might argue that these are, themselves, features of the FI, where they are most pronounced. More an essential factor of the quilting bee than of the hunting party.

Glenn
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On a personal level, dealing with these idiotic presumptions of “fairness” and equality is a constant battle. When I deal with women now there are many who are used to just injecting their equalism/fairness ideas non-stop into my frame and I have to bat them back, it’s really a battle. But the funny thing is I almost never get in arguments with women anymore, when they resist or insist on their idiocy, I flat out reject it and just keep going and most just trail off into a murmur. I’ll even say – “That’s nonsense, you are spouting ridiculous ideas… Read more »

Glenn
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@KFG – If the FI is everything, it is nothing. You guys use it to explain everything at the expense of understanding very important factors that give rise to where we find ourselves today. I mean, if I’m to take you and Rollo seriously, then nothing matters because all our economics and politics and morality – everything emanates from the FI. Which is not only silly, it’s wrong. The root problem is a misunderstanding of complex systems and how seemingly small influences can yield wildly varying outcomes when they encounter other forces/limits/agents in a complex system. Human society is a… Read more »

TuffLuv
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Hey believe it or not dudes.. you don’t have to be supremely ripped to have chicks submit their bodies and souls to you.. Alpha is a frame of mind..

Nothing against pumping iron. Just saying.

ctt2
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This article really highlights some of the errors I made in my last relationship. First one being shacking up, never again will I make that mistake. The script played out just as described, to the point that she just stopped taking birth control about two months ago to completely end our already pathetically infrequent sex life. Secondly, I gave up too much of my frame by making her education a central priority. It made perfect logical sense to do so given the long-term income potential of a PhD but it only made her more demanding. We moved four times in… Read more »

Blaximus
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Rollo said: I like sex far too much to ever let myself get out of shape, and Mrs. T has always know that’s been a benchmark for our relationship. I enjoy a lot of health and social benefits from having been in the physical top 10% among my peers for my life, but I’m not afraid to admit that the thought of “fat sex” fills me with revulsion. Ah, you beat me to the punch, again, man. Other than the wonderful health benefits, sex is a great driver for keeping in shape. Maybe some of our younger commenters here haven’t… Read more »

TuffLuv
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@ctt2

what a cunt

Glenn
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I have to make it a rule to not come to this site during work hours, lol. Check this video out, Britney and Iggy Azalea talking about what it’s like to be a pretty women in the age of the ascendant Beta Male. [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV2uebhnqOw&w=560&h=315%5D Put them in a room full of RP, Alpha men who have game? Do you think such men are “buzzing around them like flies”? Even more to the point of this post, do you think “pretty girls” really want anything that resembles equality? The second you submit to such a frame you are dead meat… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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“Being wealthy is attractive to women, no question.” That’s right “no question” about that. But the question is…. WHAT is she attracted to? Is she attracted to your money or is she attracted to fucking you? Some men never want to believe the truthful answer to this question: WHAT is she attracted to? Women always have and probably always will fake “fuck attraction” to gain access to a mans bank account when they really have no real desire to fuck the man. Their obsessive compulsive gluttony of frivolous materialistic self indulgence combined with their need to maintain an illusion of… Read more »

Blaximus
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@Rocket Online dating= bullshit. I don’t know what the male/female ratio is where you are, but what I would suggest is to get out of the house and get around your surroundings. Chicks are everywhere.. ( I guess, I’m going by where I live so my data could be askew..). Chat them up wherever you find them. Chat up all the ones you find attractive. Do not stop. Online dating came after my time. I’ve only tried it once, and I got laid immediately, but in the end, I didn’t care for it much ( the dating, not the lay… Read more »

Glenn
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“Women will tell beta men all day long that they think “porn is fake”, girls don’t really like it, “eeewwww!” “gross!” yadda yadda yadda blaa blaa blaa.” Hmm, no women has ever said this to me…

Okay, off to the gym cuz i’m clearly not going to do any more work today.

TuffLuv
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@rollo

old school alpha still works just fine.. just depends on the chick. Want a girl who’s all about meat-heads.. be a meat-head. Want a chick who appreciates d’boner, be d’boner.

ctt2
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@TuffLuv

You have no idea. She went from the sweet, feminine 21 year old college senior I met to a bitter, angry, high-powered strong independent career-oriented academic and I held on for far too long hoping it was just a phase.

TuffLuv
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@ctt2

far too long is 19 years my friend.. you’ll be fine.

TuffLuv
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“@rollo
old school alpha still works just fine.. just depends on the chick. Want a girl who’s all about meat-heads.. be a meat-head. Want a chick who appreciates d’boner, be d’boner.”

All depends on their dad, really.. imho

Blaximus
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My man Rollo said: What’s interesting is that there was a time when men like Frank Sinatra, Steve McQueen, James Dean and Cary Grant were the type of man women would swoon for. Now it’s men with the looks and build of Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans and Hugh Jackman who inspire that Alpha tingle. That’s because women, on the whole, have become much more simplistic and simple-minded. The visceral rules all. Granted, Steve, James and Cary weren’t the buffest dudes, but damn, they were cool/alpha ( portrayed anyway ). For mass consumption, Alpha is boiled down to ” muscular “.… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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@Glen

Britney and Iggy Azalea video –

Anyone else here notice the obnoxious extreme arrogant sense of self entitlement in the video?

It is so blatant and in your face that you may their video is a sarcastic insult to pretty girls. But it is not an insult. It is “girl pride” expressed in a most revolting way.

Blaximus
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….Hmmmm, Now that you mention Cary Grant, I’d better check my suit game.

ctt2
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@TuffLuv I know I will, I’m already happier than I’ve been in probably the last 4-5 years. There is no peace like knowing I am headed home to a clean house and no bitching.

The dad comment is on point, my ex’s dad is a complete pussy and her mom is a domineering bitch. She dated sensitive yes-men before me and ended up hating them, but still tried to create the same dynamic in our relationship and hated me for not succumbing. I will never cease to be amazed by the complete inability for introspection in women.

Blaximus
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@Rollo…. just, damn.

Father of 5 overdosed by hooker. Yup, that man needed a double dose of RP instead of heroin.

TuffLuv
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@rollo

I see where you’re going, but I’d say no.. He was one who had a lot but was inevitably bored, would be my guess.

Seriously bro, if you have millions and want to go ‘outside the marriage’ an escort is the safest and most reliable bet.. can’t go risking it all trying to pick up chicks and playing games.

On that note.. that’s one ugly ‘high end’ call girl. See how she has a cheek underneath another cheek? She’s hideous.. he should have upgraded.

TuffLuv
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@ctt2

I envy you. The world is your oyster.

TuffLuv
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@ctt2

TuffLuv
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image post fail. fuck it

Not Born This Morning
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@Rocket – “DO NOT GET MARRIED, YOU WILL LOSE, IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME. YOU CANNOT MAINTAIN FRAME FOREVER … HER FAMILY, HER FRIENDS, HER CO-WORKERS, THE MEDIA, AND SOCIETY WILL CONVINCE HER SHE CAN DO BETTER. WHENEVER SHE AGREES, HER HYPERGAMY WILL BE UNLEASHED AND YOU WILL BE DIVORCE-RAPED. YOU CANNOT WIN. THEY WILL NOT LET YOU WIN. YOU WILL LOSE AND LOSE BIG. THERE IS NO WAY TO SAFELY GET MARRIED IN WESTERN SOCIETY ANYMORE; DO NOT GET MARRIED. A PRENUPT WILL NOT HELP. Sorry for all that shouting. I was and still am pissed and… Read more »

Seraph
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“He got a porche an women would wanna go out on dates with them when they saw him driving it. But he would always pick them up in his firs car the ford. When they would walk up and see him in the car some would turn around and go back inside.
It was his way of showing that he mattered first.”

I freakin’ LOVE this story. Excellent example.

kfg
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@Glenn: “If the FI is everything, it is nothing.” I am not describing it as everything. I am describing it as a component of something, just as one might describe a gravitational body in an orbital system. The effect of the body feeds back into the entire system, which is feeding back into the body. Which is why solving orbitals becomes incredibly complex with only three bodies. I understand the idea of complex systems. Human society is at its core a three body problem. There is the female nature body and the male nature body, which orbit the massive, central… Read more »

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“Is it that or is it the social narrative that convinces women they’re entitled to Sandbergian Open Hypergamy? Is it a social narrative that convinces them their long-term security is not just deserved, but relatively so assured that Alpha Fucks thoroughly trump Beta Bucks? Is it that they so overestimate their SMV that believing they merit the apex physical ideal specimen is just a matter of course?” Well…since women are the followers of the species, aren’t they just following the frame of men? When we men sit and tell fat women that they are beautiful, they are worthy of our… Read more »

kfg
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“How do you convince an entire world of men to quit being so thirsty?”

Give them too much to drink.

redlight
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@nathan

“I’m hot, abs, good face, etc. but swamped SWAMPED (!) w medical school”

I have a high success rate in aligning guys to hooking up. Since we are online in a comments section let’s focus on correcting your tinder profile and approach. What’s your pic and text now?

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@Vulpine

May 19th, 2015 at 12:17 pm

I like what you have to say, and how you say it. Yeah, it’s sorta abrasive, but then, the freakin’ truth usually is.

Thank you. Lots to think about with your message.

Blaximus
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@Rollo, Is it that or is it the social narrative that convinces women they’re entitled to Sandbergian Open Hypergamy? Is it a social narrative that convinces them their long-term security is not just deserved, but relatively so assured that Alpha Fucks thoroughly trump Beta Bucks? Is it that they so overestimate their SMV that believing they merit the apex physical ideal specimen is just a matter of course? Hmmmm…I’m not so sure anymore that many women are even operating on a social narrative to a great extent. At least until the wall is fast approaching. Immediately it’s Alpha Fucks all… Read more »

CaveClown
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“The dad comment is on point, my ex’s dad is a complete pussy and her mom is a domineering bitch. She dated sensitive yes-men before me and ended up hating them, but still tried to create the same dynamic in our relationship and hated me for not succumbing.” The first mistake for me was not meeting my wife’s parents before I married her. They lived so far away, it was just not possible. Her dad is the biggest pussy I have ever met. Ever. Mom a domineering bitch? Check. Uses suicide threats to control him. Will ignore him for weeks… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Not Born this morning
“It is impossible for a woman to authentically fake real desire. ”

Wake up call…

@Caveclown
You fast
You move and stay away from the “the need”
Shit the memory’s are utterly despicable….

Seraph
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Regarding Vulpine, Look, he may be blunt and zealous in his life-choices but don’t miss his point. Yes, if you live in Brooklyn or downtown Chicago, or even in the suburbs, you are not going to be building a log cabin to replace your weightlifting. His point (other than getting OUT of Brooklyn or Chicago) is that physical work which accomplishes something else than fitness also increases fitness. It’s like doubling your results if you CAN do something physical constructively. Makes sense, right? His larger point is that we clutter up our lives with a lot of stuff which does… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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“I lift in order to get what I want from women, nothing wrong with that.” There is nothing wrong with that philosophy. However, in my experience with weight lifting, body building, power lifting and fitness in general I believe the men who get into it primarily to attract women, do not stay with it. Their gains are short lived and meager compared to men who do it because they enjoy it for itself like some men enjoy firearms, golf, motorcycles or any other “hobby”. Body building and fitness is a lifestyle and men who find fulfillment in them because they… Read more »

Rocket
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@ Blaximus “Immediately it’s Alpha Fucks all the way, hands down. But the overestimation of their SMV is Mind-boggling!! Absolutely, wall ravished, water buffalo sized, Marty Feldman looking chicks all think they merit a Channing Tatum of their very own. Sooo… it is a social narrative that convinces them that they are special snowflakes, that must be accepted for who they are, and that just by existing they ” deserve “. It’s approaching a mental illness.” Yes sir, spot on. I don’t believe its approaching … its already here. There are a huge percentage of single women out there that… Read more »

Blaximus
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@Rocket, Without societal pressure to reign in the behavior of younger women, we are witnessing a damn near total meltdown as far as relationships go. There is no accountability for women, young and old, for their actions – courtesy of the FI. So even blue pill betas are getting shafted earlier in their dating lives. By the time chicks start to realize they may need a ” man ” to settle down with, the sisterhood has fucked over so many guys that men in the age group these women seek no longer really want anything much to do with them… Read more »

Tilikum
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@Ghost of Jefferson

There is a world of difference between discernment and judgement. One decides if something is “good” or “bad”, the other decides if something is good or bad for “you”.

You seem young. It’s kinda like you get halfway there and just pump the brakes.

The Diplomat
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@Blaximus

Is that supposed to be “The Matrix?”

Blaximus
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@The diplomat,

…yeah. I accidently plugged back in for a minute.

Nathan
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@redlight

The pic is of me smiling at the start of a marathon. Nice pic. There is actually no text, I just got tinder 2 weeks ago believe it or not.

Do you have suggestions? I know Chateau did the perfect online dating profile at one time

Blaximus
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Tinder?? Ruh-Roh…

stuttie
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@ NBTM – 7.31pm comment – absolutely 100% spot on. Excellent comment. Guys that lift primarily for pussy give up in less than 3 months cause it’s too hard. Then shame other dudes for getting some size…gym rat etc etc.

@ Blaximus – CT Fletcher is my new fuckin hero lol

@ online dating discussion – some comic relief…enjoy.

http://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/trolling-women-on-dating-websites/

Blaximus
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@stuttie

…it’s still yo muthafukin set tho

Glenn
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@KFG – Nonsense, human society is not a three body system. Stop trying to make the Fi so meta – it’s just the fucking FI. Perhaps you should read up on group selection in human history? And start to get how central “politics” is to human social evolution? It is driven by many base human impulses, including the FI. But to assert that politics arises from the FI? As though there is a hierarchy? Ridiculous. Really. Are you going to claim that the notion of property itself arises from the FI? Will you also assert that survival instinct in men… Read more »

Blaximus
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“Fair” is a place where they judge pigs. All I know about fairness is that it is only a concept. Only men or law could possibly ” enforce ” fairness. that’s how you get harassment training at work. That’s why the losing school team might also get a trophy. ” If you are expecting the world to be fair with you because you are fair, you’re fooling yourself. That’s like expecting the lion not to eat you because you didn’t eat him “. That quote is framed and on my desk as a gentle reminder. It was hard to become… Read more »

Glenn
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@ctt2 – Nice work and a real bullet dodged. For fun you should send her a bill for all you’ve spent on her. Did she ever make any verbal representations about paying you back by supporting you some day? You might have a basis for a suit if that is the case. It is amazing how entitled a woman you are supporting becomes. At a certain point my stay-at-home wife stopped cleaning house, shopping for groceries, doing the laundry and many other basics. I had to do it all on the weekends after leaving the house at 6:20 every morning… Read more »

Blaximus
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@stuttie

http://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/trolling-women-on-dating-websites/

Now THAT was the best belly laugh I had all damn day!!!

thank you sir.

kfg
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“– it’s just the fucking FI.” Exactly. “But to assert that politics arises from the FI?” Would be silly, which is why I did nothing of the kind. Just as silly as it would be to claim that it has no influence on politics. “Are you going to claim that the notion of property itself arises from the FI?” What I have claimed to those who claim that property does not exist and is simply a social construct is that even a mouse understands the concept of property. I note that most of the people who make the claim that… Read more »

ctt2
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@Glenn Trying to go back and add up the last six years worth of expenditures would be nothing more than an exercise in frustration. Freedom is payment enough. As far as the narrative goes, it seemed to be whatever wa spun by her mother and female peers. As smart as she is in her field of study, she is also completely lacking in life experience and any breadth of knowledge. She has a certain kind of immaturity that comes from spending 27 years sheltered in school, never having to work or experience real life outside of academia and is very… Read more »

kfg
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“If you are expecting the world to be fair with you because you are fair, you’re fooling yourself. That’s like expecting the lion not to eat you because you didn’t eat him “.

There ya go.

I have been known to tell animal rights activists that I would be willing to entertain their arguments, under the condition that they go convince the lions and then have the converted lions put the argument to me.

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn

The only proper reaction? A big fucking smirk

Rather stick my dick in a blender than give a bitch with that attitude anything else. Then again both of them rate pretty low for me to begin with.

Excalibur
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Live in your own world being single, happy and free:

“Marriage is my life’s best and worst decision”

http://marriageispurgatory.blogspot.com/2011/04/marriage-is-my-lifes-best-and-worst.html

rugby11ljh
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@Not born this morning
“Celebrate the man you are.”
I think the gym is helping me out got a hell of a lot more work to do on myself. I am their to get fit. Play better rugby and meet my Siberian friend who is helping me gain weight.

Will
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@sjfrellc or @nathan

I’m an incoming medical student. I want to know everything you guys know about long distance relationships? Does it work in med school? What Do you do when your fucking a beautiful and sweet girl that you like and she likes you. How do you handle that type of shit with all the BS and moving you have to put up with in med school?

ctt2
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There is an outstanding post here about LDRs, if I remember correctly it is titled “Letting go of imaginary friends” or something similar.

ctt2
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The Diplomat
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Off-topic, but of interest nonetheless.

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2015/05/19/against_feminis.html#.VVty01yD0mM.facebook

Full disclosure: I’ve known Amy professionally since the nineties. She’s something of a theatrical caricature/calculated attention whore in her public persona but she’s highly intelligent and skewers radical feminism every chance she gets. She’s pulled some wacko media stunts, to be sure. In private life, she’s an unapologetic alpha-chaser and, historically, has exhibited a proto-RP philosophy in her advice to both men and women. I always found her to be relevant, and entertaining.

redlight
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@nathan

“The pic is of me smiling at the start of a marathon. Nice pic. There is actually no text, I just got tinder 2 weeks ago believe it or not.”

Excellent (likewise pictures of water skiing, roller skating etc,, especially if no shirt on). Do not mention med school. Reduce facebook down to having fun pictures with no timeline of your life. In social media, such as tinder, have or use phrases like “enjoy life”, “have fun”, “always up for anything”. When swamped with school say “I’m busy”, let them imagine what they want.

Rick
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I always wonder what would happen if a live in bf/gf divided up the chores (indoor vs outdoor, gross vs easy as described in the article) and then the guy simply hired professionals to do his share. It seems like nothing, but I know it would be comical deep down.

Divided Line
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It’s sad that women are like this. It’s awful. What a shame.

sjfrellc
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@Will May 20th, 2015 at 1:15 am You need to to read The Rational Male (or all of The Year One essays) and Rollo’s essay cct2 just linked to. It is simply not possible for you to have a LDR in the first year of medical school because you are not being fair to her (being away from her while she has a million other opportunities), nor to your education. You have to be all in with your education. Medical School is one big endless stream of shit tests. You know the best way to pass a shit test is… Read more »

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@Tilikum May 19th, 2015 at 12:41 pm [@sjfrellc “Three months into the residency I met my current wife (27 years ago). She was hot and she’s an excellent person.” ….for you. In that moment. It’s important not to lose sight of relative value vs. absolute value when we discuss such things. Its also why I scratch my head at the concept of optimism, pessimism, positives and negatives. No such equation exists inside of human behavior. Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting. Change the behavior, and you control the… Read more »

Bromeo
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Don’t remember what exactly motivated me to hit the gym about 4-5 years ago, this was pre RP. I believe it was purely to be the strongest in my male social circle as I had some friends also hit the gym and get jacked but I also noticed women taking notice of them for it. After I gained a good amount of muscle mass I got much more confident and also started noticing the attraction women had so that just fueled me more. Now its a part of my life, the motivators feed into themselves in a cycle. Loading...

walawala
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Once my crazy ex gf texted me in the middle of a working day to say: “My mom wants to live in my apartment for the summer because hers doesn’t have air conditioning. It’s ok if it’s too much trouble but could I live with you for a while?” Considering she’d be up to this point acting flakey, had displayed a variety of unstable behaviours I questioned her on it asking why her mom couldn’t buy an air con—her home was too messy and she didn’t like letting in strangers etc etc. There was excuse after excuse to the point… Read more »

Novaseeker
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And lots of them just PUNT and go back to riding the carousel … with guys 10 years or more younger than them. Kinda freaks me out actually to see women in the age group I’m looking at, declare every male age-appropriate for them to be losers and then go hookup with some ahole 10-15 years younger than them. Just plain weird. Again a symptom of massive mental-illness amongst women kind. Riding the carousel is one thing at age 24. Its totally different thing when your 44 and have 2 teenagers. Nice example they set for them ! Well, this… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Rollo Tomassi

That’s because women, on the whole, have become much more simplistic and simple-minded. The visceral rules all.

Is it that or is it the social narrative that convinces women they’re entitled to Sandbergian Open Hypergamy?

I also think that “fame” as a qualifier has been watered down quite a bit in the last 10-20 years. In the days of Cary Grant, fame was almost all you needed because it was so hard to achieve. Now anyone can have their own little personality cult with a Youtube channel.

Glenn
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@KFG – “So I can count on a win by default” – what pussy way out. You are making a huge claim here about the FI, but then won’t bother to defend it with any substantive analysis? Even more pathetic is your attempt deal with Rawls’ arguments and how they arise from the FI by simply stating that Rawls was “a man without a chest”. I was expecting you to talk about his lexical hierarchy of justice or the difference principle or the veil of ignorance, but no, you seem to think that casting aspersions against Rawls is an argument.… Read more »

Glenn
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@DividedLine – Indeed, it is very sad that women are like this. The Red Pill pulls away the con that women have been running on me that puts us on defense nonstop, and makes us feel guilty for even being critical of women. Without that Blue Pill defense, what’s revealed is quite ugly. I’m starting to notice a real hatred towards men leaching out from some women. It’s present in everything they do and it truly is disgusting. These women are usually SJW/feminist types and the hostility and aggression is notable. The funniest/saddest aspect of this? Watching women ape aggression… Read more »

Glenn
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Clarification – I’m noticing a “personal” hatred emanating from women in that the political is internalized and they they now treat men with contempt much more openly than they have before. And it’s broader than the feminist/sjw hardcore types, it’s present in many women of my generation particularly who don’t reject feminism but are not necessarily activists or even conscious feminists. Funny, I see so much less of it from young women who almost universally agree that feminism is about man-hating when I bring it up. I often don’t even have to state my views, they do it for me… Read more »

Brian Curtis
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Got a link to the Forbes poll?

GhostOfJefferson
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@Rollo I love when women start up with Marilyn Monroe. I let them get a good steam worked up, really get their Shame On pouring from their mouths about liking “curvy” women like her, then I drop the bomb. “Ever been to the Smithsonian? They have one of her dresses there. She was a size 2”. Head explosions, followed by silence or stomping away. Size fucking 2. Got that ladies? Size 2. So yeah, you should be more like Marilyn. Get on your diets and treadmills and get back to me when you’re size 2 and guaranteed, I’ll be far… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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Off the specific topic, but one the big one. This will only be online one more day. I’d love to her Rollo’s opinion.

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn

These are their daughters and they know all too well what a fucking mess such women have made of being a woman.

Yet their generation of women continues to participate in hookup culture without a slow down. They may not espouse feminine ideals verbally, but they continue to follow the culture they’ve created.

Pay attention to what she does, not what she says, no?

Sun Wukong
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^scuse me, meant feminist ideals there.

Softek
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@ Vulpine I definitely get the point you’re making, but it’s circular. We could say the same thing about recreational sex. What’s the point of having sex if you’re not going to have children? Having sex without the goal of producing a child is a waste of energy. It doesn’t create anything, it doesn’t contribute anything. It’s literally wasted energy. “You’re just sitting around jerking off and doing nothing.” Sex without the goal of procreation can be equated to masturbation. What’s the difference? It’s sexual energy expended for the sake of expending sexual energy — no other purpose. If all… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Disclaimer – I haven’t read the comments yet. Christ, there’s a lot of them these days, I love it. So this is just what the OP made me think of. I’ve been hitting this a lot from different angles these days since it’s what’s on my mind. But a lot of the problem people, and men especially, are having, is simple disconnect from the present moment. That may seem odd to say when discussing something so future-oriented as ‘building better worlds,’ but this still has its place. Look, the FI and the social narratives that surround us get to us… Read more »

GhostOfJefferson
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@Tilkum @Ghost of Jefferson There is a world of difference between discernment and judgement. One decides if something is “good” or “bad”, the other decides if something is good or bad for “you”. You seem young. It’s kinda like you get halfway there and just pump the brakes. I knew you couldn’t walk away, heh. Theme proven, thank you. You value your perceived place in the hierarchy you’ve observed or created (big dick!), you value being perceived as correct, you judged that I am wrong, and do not know my place “below” you, and responded thusly. Game. Set. Match. I’m… Read more »

Jeremy
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Vulpine’s argument isn’t circular, it’s fatalistic. He’s arguing against the expenditure of human energy without some assurance of positive return. One could use the same argument against every single creative-mind scientist humanity has ever produced. We would still not know how to make fire if that were an argument worth subscribing to.

kfg
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@Glenn: “what pussy way out.” Yo momma. ” . . . you actually concede my point about the nature of the FI and politics . . .” Essentially yes. Why are we fighting again? ” I’m . . . very comfortable with the ideas our founders relied on – classical liberalism.” As am I. And in the current social climate that makes me a right a wing extremist. I find that a bit odd, but not any particular source of personal discomfort. “I was expecting you to talk about his lexical hierarchy of justice or the difference principle or the… Read more »

Softek
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@ Jeremy

Thanks for summing that up. That sounds about right.

redlight
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my wife doesn’t follow pop “culture” much (good) so I showed her the 10 second clip of One Direction getting up to accept their first award at the Billboard event Sunday. I asked her who she would guess uber-bachelorette Taylor Swift dated and wrote many songs about. She picked all the seemingly nice guys until being left with one. Even though she had only seen him for 10 seconds and he never spoke, she said “HIM? How could she?!!!” For she knew he was a bad boy, a player, an alpha. In fact his bad boy brand is so strong… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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This is OT, but Rollo linked his post ‘Good Girls Do’ in the OP, so I reread it. And I was surprised how much more I understood out of it, I’m gonna have to re-read the archives, lol. The first time I read it – some time ago – I basically just got out of it the idea that so-called ‘good girls’ had the same drives and impulses as any woman, and were just as capable of feral hypergamy. Reading it again, I realized there’s a more subtle point there as well – the ‘good girl’ personality is not the… Read more »

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