Building Better Worlds


I had an interesting conversation this week with my good friend Ray and a couple of my designers, Sadie and Sam (names changed to protect the innocent). Just a little background first; Sadie is the Japanese woman I mention in Mental Point of Origin. She’s been divorced once and her relationship history is one punctuated by her involvement with Beta men.

She’s is the definition of the opportunistic concept of female love, but her frustration comes from never having been able to consolidate on an optimized Hypergamy – she simply doesn’t have attractiveness or feminine pleasantry to generate the Alpha interest that would satisfy her. Thus, she attracts Beta orbiters looking for some low hanging fruit, and force-fits them into a contextual Alpha frame. In other words, she opportunistically entertains the Betas with provisioning potential and hopes they’ll man up into dominant Alphas. Thus far she’s been disappointed.

Sam is a gay man in his early 30s who makes a good living afforded by not having children and possessing a high calibre technical skill set. He’s got the outgoing, “look at me, I’m special because I’m gay” exuberance I expect from gay men, but he’s not flamboyant and can still be professional when he has to be. He’s been “dating” a new guy for a while now and has moved this guy into his home recently. He took part in our conversation because the issues of sharing resources, money and picking up half the rent (in his case mortgage) in a relationship came up.

Ray has been one of my best friends for over 15 years now and he’s the guy I mention in Good Girls Do. He’s worked for me directly or indirectly for most of that time and he’s notorious for starting conversations like this when we have downtime. He’s a firestarter, it’s what I like about him, and among the three he’s the only one who knows my online reputation. Ray is Red Pill aware so he knows how to prompt a controversial conversation with me when we’re in mixed company.

Ray: “RT, hypothetical question…”

RT: “Do I have to?”

Ray: “Let’s say you move your girlfriend in with you…”

RT: “Let’s say I don’t and I would never do that. End of hypothetical.”

Ray: “No, I know, but, say you did, and let’s say your rent is $1,000 a month. Would you tell your girlfriend ‘Hey the rent is $1,000 a month how about you pay $300 and I’ll pay $700 or would you say 50/50?”

RT: “No. I’d pay it all myself. I’d also be sure that only my name was on the lease.”

Sadie:”What? Why, that’s silly?”

Ray: “You wouldn’t expect any contribution?”

RT: “No. I wouldn’t turn it down if she took it upon herself to contribute, but I wouldn’t expect it from a girl I (foolishly) brought into my living arrangement.”

Sadie: “You wouldn’t expect her to pay half?”

RT: “No. If I can’t provide my own $1,000 rent or food, or to keep the lights on, I have no business bringing a woman into that arrangement. If I have more than enough for myself I don’t need her paying. Besides, if she’s that into living with me, she’ll want to contribute in other ways and I wont have to ask.”

Sam: “You don’t think it should be an equal split? Maybe that’s a man and a woman thing…”

RT: “Yes and no. I’m sure between you and your boyfriend there’s a more dominant personality right?”

Sam: “Yeah, me.”

RT: “And you probably make more money too. So there’s really no ‘equality’ when it comes down to it.”

Sadie: “I expect my boyfriend to pay half the rent.”

RT: “Of course you do, because women think in terms of equality when it works to their advantage. What if your ‘boyfriend’ could pay for all the rent, utilities and most of everything else? Would you still try to pay half?”

Sadie: “Yes of course.”

RT: “What if he only paid just half and you knew it was a better deal for him?

Sadie: (tentative) “Yes,…”

RT: “I doubt that, but what you’re saying is that you’d limit improving your way of life to maintain a belief in equality.”

Sadie: “All the guy’s I’ve lived with have been mooches.”

RT: “Which explains why you’re not living with them any more. It goes both ways, women don’t respect men they need to support. All this stuff about equality in relationships is nonsense.If your boyfriend could easily make rent while you struggled to come up with it you’d resent him for it. There is no equal division.”

Sam: “I guess I see what you’re saying, but the expectation is still the same even for me and [boyfriend].

RT: “There is no equality in a relationship, but there can be complementarity where either person’s benefits can offset the needs of the other.”

Ray: “So you and Mrs. T aren’t 50/50?”

RT: “Ray, I make about 4 times the money that she does, how is there ever going to be anything like equality with that kind of balance?”

Ray: “But what about chores and shit?”

RT: “I take care of the outside of the house, she takes care of the inside. I do the smelly dirty jobs, she keeps the fresh cleaning ones, it’s not rocket science.”

Sam: “Sounds like you just want to stay in the power position.”

RT: “Yes, but it’s only a power play if you’re exploiting your partner. Women like to say they want an equal partner, but they don’t, do they Sadie? They want someone to respect and look up to. So when that comes down to numbers, to money, what’s really holding you together? Love? Mutual interests? (at Sam) Right now you can’t help but be the more dominant one in your relationship. So do you stop being so just to balance things? Do you expect [boyfriend] to pick up the slack more?

The Cardinal Rule of Relationships

In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.

This principle isn’t so much about ‘power’ as it is about control. This might sound like semantics, but it makes a difference. It’s very easy to slip into binary arguments and think that what I mean by the cardinal rule of relationships is that one participant must absolutely rule over the other – a domineering dominant to a doormat submissive. Control in a healthy relationship passes back and forth as desire and need dictate for each partner. In an unhealthy relationship you have an unbalanced manipulation of this control by a partner. Although control is never in complete balance, it becomes manipulation when one partner, in essence blackmails, the other with what would otherwise be a reinforcer for the manipulated under a healthy circumstance. This happens for a plethora different reasons, but the condition comes about by two ways – the submissive participant becomes conditioned to allow the manipulation to occur and/or the dominate initiates the manipulation. In either case the rule still holds true – the one who needs the other the least has the most control. Nowhere is this more evident than in interpersonal relationships.

When I was writing this post many years ago I hadn’t fully considered how this rule interacts with, and contradicts, many of the tenets of egalitarian equalism. The idealistic state of that equalism is one in which two co-equal, yet independent people come together in a perfect union of balance. In theory that balance should account for resources, emotional investment, family considerations, as well as intellectual and social status aspects of either partner.

These considerations alone should be enough to illustrate equalitarianism as the manipulative farce it is, however, all we really need to do is take into account the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. It’s very easy to be accused of being controlling when you embrace the truth of this rule – and particularly so when the reigning social undercurrent is one in which everyone ought to be co-equal rational actors.

I expected to have that leveled at me in this conversation, but it’s important to bear in mind the real nature of power. By my own definition, power is the degree of control we exercise over the direction of our own lives. As I mentioned, I don’t mind being the more powerful partner in terms of resources in my marriage because I accept that stupid notions of maintaining anything like “equality” is simply infeasible. I know more than a few men who’ve sold their lives’ potential away in the belief that they should lessen themselves in order to support a more balanced, equalist ideal. Ultimately their relationships, marriages and families suffer because they never own that potential – just the idea of owning it is a source of guilt and shame.

For all of the bleating about more equitability being needed between men and women. the fundamental truth is that it’s neither a realistic nor workable state. I’ve used money for my illustration here, but this applies to many other facets of an intersexual relationship. From an equalist perspective this sounds a lot like a want for creating a condition of dependency, but in truth it is an unachievable state of egalitarianism that creates a never-satisfied state of dependency.

Her World or Yours?

If you go back and look at the video from Bachelor Nation you can see the dichotomy that presumptions of “equality” sows in western(izing) women today. Within the first 6 minutes of the video we see the internal contradictions inherent in women. There is a want for an idealized equal pairing, but yet a desire for a man to be a Man. The documentary finds the root of this dichotomy in modern resource imbalances between the sexes, and makes the predictable appeal to men not living up to their burden of performance. The male shame comes in contrasting women’s taking on what should be men’s performance burdens – the male obligation to which ironically flies in the face of anything like true egalitarian equalism.

Stay-at-home dads, house husbands, and anything relatable will always have a stigma attached to them in spite of any weak attempts to make them socially acceptable. That stigma is founded in a limbic-level understanding of men’s burden of performance; to be a Man is not just to produce sustainable resources, but to provide a surplus of those resources.

I recently read a poll sponsored by Forbes magazine that listed men’s top goals in life and for the first time in that poll’s history “a good physique” outranked all personal and financial ambitions for top executives. The predictable shame then followed that men aren’t “Manning Up” any more, and they’ve become vain, self-absorbed narcissists for a new focus on what image they present.

The obvious Red Pill conclusion is of course a realignment with the prevailing social perceptions (courtesy of the Feminine Imperative I might add) that women are out-earning men financially and educationally; thus the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy takes precedent. If America’s top execs are heeding the message of Open Hypergamy, why bother establishing yourself financially, academically, ambition-wise or otherwise?

The problem with this equation is evident in the Bachelor Nation video. I can understand the sentiments of MGTOW; if the opinions expressed by the quality of woman represented in the video are any indicator of a female zeitgeist it makes the idea of abandoning the Game altogether that much more appealing.

That said, and I’m going to dare to get prescriptive here, I believe that establishing yourself as an independent Man should be your top priority. I have no doubt that that sentiment will get convoluted with feminism’s Strong Independent Woman® meme, but lets clarify something first – the ideal that men ought to be strong and independent has always been the precursor to his quality as a man. Independence, self-sufficiency and determined ambitions have always been the hallmarks of a man comfortable with his burden of performance. Only in women is independence a novelty.

Yet now, in men, this independence is not just a novelty, but it’s been distorted into being an obsessive-compulsive sign of a man’s imagined insecurities. The very strength and independence men have always been expected to embody is the domain of women, while any hope for it from men is a sign of a fragile ego.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #1

Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of who’s frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are.

I firmly believe Alpha is a mindset. That mindset can get the poorest son-of-a-bitch laid with the right application, tact and circumstance. That’s a tough pill to swallow when you work your ass off in the belief that your affluence and status should be the metric Alpha is judged by and women respond to. That’s also not to say affluence and status won’t get you laid by their own merit, it’s just the context in which that happens that makes the difference. There are many men who’ve found their retroactive cuckolding after having based their personal successes on the presumption that those successes should be the basis of his quality to women.

The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of  frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it. The forces that influence that lack or boost of will is irrelevant – just know that the conditions of an operative framework will shift because of them.

We can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a MGTOW perspective, it’s important for a Man to have a world into which a woman might enter. Not for her sake, but for a Man’s edification.

Establish your world; you shall make your mission, not your woman your priority. Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

828 comments on “Building Better Worlds

  1. The one with the power is the one best suited to walk away in the short term. Women don’t think long term. The trick really is to turn your female dominance game into something else. Something you actually enjoy.

    Last week I helped a man plan his divorce. Guy I work with. His youngest kid finally moved out and he finally knows he can do something. Get rid of that dead weight harpy who he has given so much to. Who just caws, “more, more” like some kind of robot. She’s not happy because her brain only says more. More more more.

    I’ve seen them together faking looking happy. I’m so glad I know how to help him plan his divorce. His freedom. He’s always been quiet when I tell my stories or give my hard opinions. And he’s very religious. He needs to lose twenty pounds but under that this guy is gold.

    The longest I’ve spent with one girl was eight years. God that was a long time. You’re a good dude to give all of this shit to your wife. I can only hope you enjoy it. And maybe she can even briefly understand what this level of commitment, especially coming from an aware man, really means.

    Meanwhile I’ll keep doing my thing. Religious shackles aren’t for me. I’m not down for the beta massacre. Oh no I’ve got other plans.

    They are going well. No crotch bangle yet but I’m working on it. And still I’m a good church member. Other then that. And I have no interest in the reformed church sluts. There are better girls all around me.

    I wonder how long I can play this game? Cause Skyrim is often more fun. Still, sometimes… It’s nice to have some company.

  2. Frames.

    Speaks to the heart…

    On a comical note Rollo,miss T. isnt exempted from hypergamy,she may just be waiting for you to loose frame,so she can bang bikers and scream,”I cheated on Rollo Tomassi,I AM the shit”……nway,im just trolling

    Im glad i know this info when still young,thanks man.

  3. *Caw caw* more, more *caw, caw*

    The call of the wife.

    *Caw* Give me more! *Caw!*

  4. There’s a furniture store commercial going around right now about a man and woman moving in with each other (two couples actually) and the punch line is their home together becomes a home with only her furniture and his is thrown out.

  5. Being wealthy is attractive to women, no question.
    But further, the redpill perspective would suggest you can get laid by exude not being a beta (i.e. being a alpha), who would provide the Beta bucks. Hence it’s a balancing act not to make money too much of your appeal. Given that getting pussy is a goal for any men, really, this suggest that putting income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work is a bad idea.
    For people who don’t intent to build a family, does the redpill suggest that getting rich really is all that important compared to the basic capitalist ideology? Of course, you want sufficient money for fun and health, I’m just trying to find out what the reasonable weight of $$ is in this framework, as compared to other narratives.

  6. @bnon

    “Given that getting pussy is a goal for any men, really, this suggest that putting income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work is a bad idea”

    Making your income goals dependent on your goals to acquire pussy seems wrong from the start.

    Relate it to the last line of the post:

    “Establish your world; you shall make your mission, not your woman your priority. Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.”

  7. I don’t see why women should not pay 50/50 or pay rent in a situation where the man makes enough money and is the sole leaser or owns his place. In this day and age, love and money should never be confounded.

    My house, my rules, my frame. Money is money. Maybe at some point when you have tested her enough you can tell her to not chip in anymore.

    I know a lot of women who’ve bought a house with the help of their parents (+money from the bank) and expect their boyfriend to pay rent. Having no problem with the fact that their LTR boyfriend is paying for their own house (no shared ownership) while not being able to buy his own property on the side.

    One has to be smart about money.

  8. The problem I keep having with the traditional division of labor is that it always ends up seeming like a shit deal for men. Even if women all ‘snapped out of it’ and tried to go back to tending homes and raising kids on men’s dimes, I’d want nothing to do with that dynamic. They end up living longer more comfortable and possibly more fulfilling lives while men kill themselves trying to maintain the image of superior manly bosshood, which equates to serving and being productive to women. in a world where women can generate money, make them pull their own wieght. Not to push a equalitarin agenda, but because she’s not worth more than you for having a vag. the idea that man are superior thus it is their noble superior duty to be heroes for women to respect, is a ruse that leaves men fighting and stepping over eachother to do more for women. Men are superior because they have to be. Because if they fail to earn more or be tougher or more clever, they will be cast aside as worthless by women and society. Instead of rejecting this misadrist notion. You, rational male, seek to uphold it. Men don’t need to be better utilities for women. They need to learn to value their innate personhood.

  9. Good stuff and a thought for the newbies re: “Alpha is a mindset”.

    Being a completely self contained man is the goal here. If your mind is strong the body will follow suit.

    Your physique, your money,and other indicators of fitness have become ubiquitous (as RT mentions above, the focus on Alpha traits prevailing as females no longer require Beta Bucks) but for a guy starting out, they are positive and measurable improvements.

    But you have to learn to move past them as they will trap you in the same prison as beta hood and you will begin to plateau and experience a lot of rejection by seeming to play to the douchbag meathead type.

    Think of this concept kind of like a college degree. A successful guy in his 30’s with no degree has 10 times the hiring value of the same guy who towed the social line and went to school like a good little boy.

    Can’t swing a dead hooker without hitting some poor degreed schlub with a shitload of school debt, average intelligence, and the demonstrated willingness to do EXACTLY what he is told in his life and in his cube drone/engineering/marketing/paperpushing/ on and on job. These traits are now AVERAGE, beta. Nothing special.

    Resist your conditioning.

  10. @bnon May 19th, 2015 at 4:12 am

    I went kayaking on a river once for the first time. I was by myself and I decided to go upstream for two hours and then go downstream for an hour.
    On subsequent trips I found going downstream was always more enjoyable, so I parked a bike downstream and then pedaled back to the car after the trip.

    Analogous, to money. Having more money is always easier and less stressful. It’s how you get that money and how stressful the pursuit of dollars becomes from then on.

    You are conflating separate ideas.

  11. “Think of this concept kind of like a college degree. A successful guy in his 30’s with no degree has 10 times the hiring value of the same guy who towed the social line and went to school like a good little boy.”

    Amen. Good comment.

    I’m 33, no degree, working a job that would normally require a master’s degree in biz.

    I make more money than anyone I know, except my business partner.

    (1. I need to get away from having a biz partner, working on it. 2. I need to find more successful men to add to my circle, so I can keep learning)

    The dudes that have degrees work for me…

    Also, most of the rich men I have known are either terrible beta’s with women, or have gone MGTOW to protect their wealth. A rich dude that has game or frame with women is a rare bird indeed.

    Makes me wonder what the real motivator for their success was? (hint, it was to impress women)

  12. Great stuff you covered in this essay with it’s multiple other sub-themes.

    I was excited that you deigned to be prescriptive and then I see the comment at: May 19th, 2015 at 6:52 am by someone with an avatar name that is ironically enigmatic. Facepalm.

  13. Except my right hand man, He’s an alpha, and women adore him. (I think he is down to 3 “girlfriends” right now)

    His frame is spot on and I trust him more with my business than I do any other man.

    He doesn’t have a degree either. I pay him very, very well.

  14. @ CaveClown

    Educations seem really, really important for people who aren’t very smart. Prolly why chicks go nutty over credential-ism.

    Dave Chapelle said that if a dude could bang chicks while living in a cardboard box he would, and that is a true statement FOR AN ALPHA/SIGMA.

    I do really well when properly motivated, but only ever needed a cardboard box. It’s something I call “lazy Lion syndrome”. I stay way more productive than I need to simply because I have 2 young sons even though I’m old as shit haha. It’s a weird drive I discovered after I had my first kid almost 10 years ago and a big reason I just had the second a few months back.

    Once you know how to make money and lots of it, it’s just something you do when you have to I guess. It also keeps your brain busy and out of the bars I suppose.

  15. Thanks again Rollo for all the work you do here; this is what I needed this morning.

    One comment though. Yes, Alpha is a mindset. And, Yes, women are attracted to wealth and power. And, Yes, women are attracted to tall, well built attractive men, who dress nice, and have social skills … too. And, Yes, women are not dependent financially on men anymore so being successful is not enough; its now just a prerequisite.

    This is why < 10% of men are attractive to women anymore. They want it all and BELIEVE they deserve it all. Even the short, fat, stupid, tatted out whores. They believe the deserve "The One", Mr Perfect, Mr Wonderful. They all do; AWALT. It used to be that women needed a man and once married they had incentives to stay married. No longer. For women today, having a man is a choice not a need. They can choose you and when they get bored they can choose to get rid of you (divorce-rape). That is the FRAME women live in. DON'T LIVE IN THAT FRAME.

    One thing I have struggled with is trying to redefine that frame and force her into mine. When you make it clear that you don't buy it (hers) and won't play when the rules are stacked 1,000% in her favor … women just come unglued. All you have to do is drop a few Red Pill truths and you can just see them react. Not cool. So am still struggling with that one; how to bring her into my frame … when staying in her frame is guaranteed slam dunk win for her … why would she adopt MY frame at all ?

  16. ” . . . getting pussy is a goal for any men . . .”

    At times taking a piss will be the most pressing goal for any man, but in between those times if he thinks about it at all there is something wrong with him.

    ” . . . the idea that man are superior thus it is their noble superior duty to be heroes for women to respect, is . . .”

    . . . just not faaaaair. Don’t get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and certainly don’t entirely disagree with it, but the fact of the matter is life is not fair. Sheep and wolves are different. Hawks and mice are different. Men and women are different.

    The different are not equal. Life is not fair. It couldn’t even exist beyond the level of cyanobacteria if it were and even some cyanobacteria have it better off than others.

    You have been raised in an environment which holds up the illusion of egalitarianism as desirable goal, when in fact, if it were realized, would result in nothing but utter destruction. So long as you hold on to that ideal you will be out of step with natural law itself, disadvantaged and troubled.

    “They need to learn to value their innate personhood.”

    What is the value of innate cockroachhood?

  17. @rocket

    Don’t force it. She can choose to be in your frame, for she can GTFO. If you are trying to force it, you are not in your own frame to begin with.

    Women will naturally follow your lead, if your frame is there. (not all of them, but enough)

    Keep in mind that this is not a conscious thing for women.

    Think less “vindictive whore” and more “insecure child” with women.

  18. @Rocket

    You gotta learn to burn her down to the ground completely with not even a shred of compassion. Stay on her. If she keeps coming back she wants MORE.

    They hate themselves, each other, what they have leveraged to get where they are, they intrinsically know that the culture is as ill as their place in it.

    Her desire to be dominated is infinite. Think of it like obedience training a dog (I fucking hate pets BTW, apparently I am not that far out of the cave myself), the damn things just keep trying to please ya. You gotta give them the space and tools to do just that.


  19. @bnon and @ Rollo,

    Bnon said, ” Hence it’s a balancing act not to make money too much of your appeal. Given that getting pussy is a goal for any men, really, this suggest that putting income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work is a bad idea.”

    This really is frustrating to me!

    I’m hot, abs, good face, etc. but swamped SWAMPED (!) w medical school.

    The pretty girls I should be fucking, I see them fucking firemen

    Alpha MUST be a demographic. Guys who don’t give A FUCK, who do not put income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work/ community of”brothets” clean up.

    Fuck it. Where I’d the incentive to work. There Is none

    Its like the Lord said, the PRODIGAL son (another word for alpha) gets rewarded. Responsibility gets nothing

    Matt 20:12-15

  20. “Responsibility gets nothing”

    What is your responsibility to be a doctor? Where does it come from?

  21. “Yes, Alpha is a mindset. And, Yes, women are attracted to wealth and power. And, Yes, women are attracted to tall, well built attractive men, who dress nice, and have social skills … too.”

    Alpha is a mindset. MINDSET.

    So what exactly does the rest of your comment have to do with that mindset?

    Sure, women are attracted to all of those things. (So are straight men, gay men, lesbians, and children btw. EVERYONE)

    But women are AROUSED by the mindset. You can be alpha, and be broke as hell, short, ugly, etc. (although an alpha mindset implies you have at least some sort of social skill set, if only towards playing the game with women)

  22. @CaveClown

    Guess saying “force it” wasn’t the right word. Here is an example, Online Dating which I gave up a few years back. Just shit for men. Online dating is one of the things that has made women so rotten today; imo. Put out a fake profile of how you “want” people to think you are with a couple of enticing pics (real or not) and instant validation when 1,000 thirsty beta’s flood your inbox with adoration. So when communicating with a girl Online she will have lists of things that she demands men meet. I won’t play that game and instead, try to float a list of things SHE has to meet. For example, they are ALWAYS evasive about their weight. So I make it clear that I refuse to date anyone overweight and make her prove to me that she isn’t. Are your pics accurate ? How old are they ? Do you still look the same, weigh the same, built the same, in your pics you are doing something active … do you still do that ? Etc, etc. As soon as you try to make them meet some metric YOU have, they come unglued. They are just so spoiled and entitled, they just can’t fathom a dude who refuses to line up and do what they want. The fact that you expect them to do something YOU WANT is what causes them to come unglued; they just can’t handle that.

    And you are right; if they refuse to adopt my frame or at least to adjust theirs (downward adjustment on their entitlement) I instantly next them. The problem is … AWALT. So that leaves nobody left.

    1. @Caveclown
      “But women are AROUSED by the mindset. You can be alpha, and be broke as hell, short, ugly, etc. (although an alpha mindset implies you have at least some sort of social skill set, if only towards playing the game with women)”

      Glad you brought that up. I’ve meet women who have done some horrendous things solely based off this aroused state. It was in a blue pill beta mindset. But still amazing to see how that does mean more than anything else. Maybe evolution meant it that way.
      Online dating is not a good way for me to learn how to approach and not come off as creepy… It also doesn’t help me read body language which is something I’ve had a hard time adapting with while being a youngster.
      So for me I avoid it. If you want to find women who are in shape hit up a gym and at least you know your goals an theirs may be meet somewhat.
      The Internet can seriously mess things up as well as help. Such as here…

  23. @Nathan

    It’s gonna get worse.

    Once you’re done with your residency and if still single, you will have a huge target painted on your back for every floor nurse and tech there. And guess what, it won’t have a single thing to do with who you are as a person, merely a status/fiscal decision on her part.

    Still better than being a lawyer tho! 😉

  24. @rocket

    If you don’t know these places already, google: christian mcqueen and/or blackdragon blog.

    Both have specific directions for online dating and such. Both are also generally upbeat and don’t condemn women for being women. (not that rollo does condemn women, not at all, just that the rational male blog teaches how the motor works, but not necessarily how to turn the wrench as a mechanic)

    Rollo, if I overstepped by referring to other sites, please let me know.

  25. “Maybe evolution meant it that way.”

    If reproduction were rational it wouldn’t happen and the idea of The Rational Male wouldn’t have occurred.

  26. “I’ve meet women who have done some horrendous things solely based off this aroused state. It was in a blue pill beta mindset. But still amazing to see how that does mean more than anything else. Maybe evolution meant it that way.”

    Read rollo’s books. It’s all in there. lol

  27. @Nathan

    It’s easier to hide wealth than to hide poverty. She don’t have to know you’re a doctor. Hell I don’t even let them know I’m an undegreed software developer anymore. I drive a fun but unassuming car and motorcycle (they were worth under $40k total for the pair new), live in a nice but not expensive place, and have a rather minimalist mindset. I could afford a lot more expensive stuff and living arrangement, but instead live very well within my means.

    I plan to become far more wealthy by working extremely hard, but I will not make that wealth obvious to women; it is for me and me alone. When I was younger and less well off, I knew the stress of making rent each month. As I’ve become better off, rent’s just one more bill that automatically comes out of my account each month. I don’t even think about it. My mind is focused on other shit. Important shit. Improving my skills for my job, improving my skills for my own independent business ideas, improving my physique, improving my social circle, and improving my skills at getting laid.

    You don’t have to show a woman the wealth or use it to get her if you have it. It just makes doing everything else easier because you’re not stressed about shit people with less money stress about. I know some people with a lot of money wind up stressing more, but they’re money focused as an end unto itself. To me, money is just a tool to achieve my goals. It’s an important tool, but just a tool. The more of it you have, the more effortless your goals will become.

    Don’t let the Beta Bucks trap discourage you from making money. Just be aware of the trap and be aware that simply having money won’t force you to step in it. It’s easier to hide wealth than to hide poverty.

  28. @Rollo,

    Thank you for responding.

    Please any more? The issue w delayed gratification is that thete is no sensyal abandon, no euphoric irresponsibility.

    There is tok much cetebral Appolonian control.

    I don’t want to swing to the opposite extreme, yet but it sure seems easier and, really, nothing about the count Rt inspire me to good work, community building anymore.

    Thete is just no goodness in it

  29. @CaveClown

    Seen both sites; didn’t like mcqueen. Blackdragon seemed to be one of the best that I’d run across; some actual usable advice there.

    Most places that give online dating advice can be boiled down to the following: IMO. If you are TALL and good looking and Photogenic !!!! And do fun things like Climb Mount Everest NAKED, race Motorcycles or fly airplanes as HOBBY. And are extremely social !!! And then if you dedicate your life by spending 30 hrs a week, messaging dozens, hundreds, thousands of women; all of whom will treat you like shit. THEN eventually you will figure out a system that works for you and get laid, maybe, once, to a fatty, who you’d never really want for a LTR anyway.

    Once I learned how online dating really works … I quickly realized I have much better things to do with my life. If all I want to do is get laid: $300 bucks and escort works just fine.

  30. Ok. I just read the first few sentences of the post and cannot refrain from commenting without going further. Fucking hilarious, the picture is a great metaphor for what I suspect the post is about. This is great, so true. I read “Mental Point of Origin” and before reading more I want to comment on the prevalence of Asian women hooking up to what I call ultra casper milk toast extreme pussy white boys. A couple living next door to me fits this profile. She is Chinese, he is Caucasian American. He is without a doubt one of the most timid, physically weak, pasty things you will ever encounter, not fat but very wimpy. He is extremely unsure of himself. He literally acts like he is afraid to say “hi”. In my experience these type of Caucasian guys are the only ones hooking up with average Asian women. I have never understood why.

    Why do average or below average Asian women who hook up with Caucasian men always hook up with the most pathetic weaklings?

  31. @ Tilikum

    Why do you say, “Still better (a doctor) than being a lawyer tho!”

    Not arguing or contradicting, truly asking

  32. Men should avoid online dating like the plague. Rollo has a good point about it being a buffer, and despite my having pulled a couple cute chicks out of it I can say that after extensive experience with it that it’s entirely weighted in the female’s favor. Any woman who is truly a decent catch doesn’t need it so you’re by default sifting through the leftovers that couldn’t do the short, easy list that Girl Game entails. On top of that there’s the massive SMV inflation that even the fat girls are getting from thirsty, stupid Betas.

    I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that you’re better off developing a better social circle and finding the hot spots where cute chicks hang out in your city (which is what I’m having to figure out right now). Online dating is a waste of a male’s time. Boycott it.

  33. @NBTM

    For the guy, it’s an opportunity to hook up with a chick that isn’t fat which he won’t be afforded with white chicks. For the chick, it’s a green card waiting to happen. Source: been that guy before.

    That being said, I generally find that non-white races are always drawn to my blue eyes and blonde hair since for a lot of races those are unusual if not almost unheard of. It’s “exotic” to an Asian chick to find herself staring at a pair of blue eyes.

    I’m not the sucker I was back then, but I’m not afraid to exploit the fact that other races default to finding my look different and attractive. Difference now is that I won’t hook up with average chicks from other races. Either I find her hot, or I’m not gonna bother.

  34. What I took from this is, who fucking cares what women want or don’t want? You should strive to be an independent, successful man based on the merits of achievement alone, as these are traditional facets of being a man throughout history, regardless of “alpha/beta”. Sure it helps with chicks, sometimes, but who the fuck cares? If you have alpha frame regardless of your economic situation, that’s great, so why not earn some bread and live a great life regardless of the women in and out of your life?

  35. “I’ll be stealing this quote BTW.”

    Well then it turns out we’ve simply made a fair exchange.

  36. @bnon

    Being wealthy is attractive to women, no question.

    This is actually overstating things. Wealth isn’t attractive to women, but it is a possible indicator of an alpha mindset. Resources are desired by women, that’s true, but resources don’t get them wet.

    Women have a complex relationship with wealth. They *need* it because they always want more, so they’ll settle for getting hitched to a beta to get it. But they also use it as a quick-measure of the men they meet in hopes of finding an alpha. It never occurs to them that the pervasiveness of the FI in our society’s laws have created a situation where now most wealthy men are actually beta males who happened to gamble with their disposable wealth correctly. Wealth is just a quick litmus test to weed out men they don’t want to bother with. That shit test can be easily passed by poor men with game, making the wealth meaningless.

    Don’t mistake women’s desire for a wealthy man as attraction, because it isn’t the attraction you want.

    1. @Sun wukong
      “but I will not make that wealth obvious to women; it is for me and me alone.”
      Yeah I think so as well…
      Someone who used to work with my mom ha a son at 16 who had his own mowing comapany by the time he was 18 he was already a millionaire but still drove his first ford pickup.
      He got a porche an women would wanna go out on dates with them when they saw him driving it. But he would always pick them up in his firs car the ford. When they would walk up and see him in the car some would turn around and go back inside.
      It was his way of showing that he mattered first.
      Stand corrected
      I read you thanks for the correction.

  37. @Sun

    Agree. Online dating will set you back in every instance in which it is tried for the majority of men in the middle of the bell.

  38. @kfg

    “Online dating is . . .”

    . . . based on the pretence that desire can be negotiated.

    Like most Beta game.

  39. @Nathan

    Dunno exactly why Tilikum says it, but I can give you a practical reason:

    We’ve got a glut of lawyers and a shortage of doctors right now in the US. Economics 101, supply and demand. Doctors are going to be more likely to be employable and command a higher price. I’ve got friends freshly graduated with law degrees right now struggling to make ends meet, meanwhile every friend with a medical degree is making money hand over fist.

  40. @Sun
    Online dating is …

    “Like most Beta game”

    Indeed, online dating IS beta game at its worst. Women are in charge and you get to prove yourself to them. They get to choose and you get to beg. The rules are 1,000% stacked in their favor.

  41. @kfg

    “Online dating is . . .”

    . . . based on the pretence that desire can be negotiated.

    Wow, I don’t think I fully understood my revulsion to online dating until I read that. That’s precisely correct and perfectly illustrates the problem, imho.

  42. @Sun Wukong

    Doctors are going to be more likely to be employable and command a higher price.

    It goes in cycles. The fact that doctors are now in high demand has a lot to do with certain, shall we say, bloatware-laws that were passed by our current administration. Another major financial shock and we become something like Greece where laws like that are unaffordable.

    Always have a trade, or know enough to be a plumber, welder, or machinist.

  43. @ Nathan

    Drs and Lawyers have a lot in common with the Firemen/Police dichotomy.

    Lawyers and Cops (and soldiers, same thing) are forced to deal with shitty people on their turf day in and day out with the psychologically damaging expectation of ultimate badassery (and fishbowl constant scrutiny) as well as some superhuman capacity to emotionally manage their reality. As a coping mechanism they like to get drunk, blustery and often suicidey.

    Dr’s and Firemen get the benefit of what I call “purity of purpose”. You get to select how much of an asshole you want to be and the perception of you is still is one of compassionate caring. You can boost this by stepping away and taking three months (either for real reasons or for perceptions sake) to go pull a stint with MSF or some other NGO.

    You get to authentically choose your contribution and internalize it.

  44. @Jeremy

    For geriatrics I’d say this cycle is going to last for another 30-40 years as the Baby Boomers move through the system. I can’t think of a better time to be in geriatric medicine.

    1. @Jeremy

      “Always have a trade, or know enough to be a plumber, welder, or machinist.”

      Massage therapy


      “with the psychologically damaging expectation of ultimate badassery (and fishbowl constant scrutiny) as well as some superhuman capacity to emotionally manage their reality. As a coping mechanism they like to get drunk, blustery and often suicidey.”

      You can see this at any fire station

      “You get to authentically choose your contribution and internalize it.”

      That’s freedom…

  45. Quick! How many lawyer jokes can you think of?

    Quick! How many doctor jokes can you think of? (I’ll wait…)

    Most lawyers drive to work in a Camry to work for the partners that drive to work in a Mercedes.

    Only 22% of lawyers are self-employed.

    Almost 70% of GP’s are self-employed.

  46. The rewards of performance and performance itself should never be sacrificed to gain access to a woman’s intimacy.

    We are conditioned to believe that “hard work”, honesty, integrity, generosity, provisioning, etc. alone will earn respect and make us attractive. This conditioning is a very effective sales tactic of the FI. It is just like the used car salesman or sleazy financial planner who takes your money with false promise of value reciprocated. You receive reward based on effort in life but it is unwise to waste that effort. Probably the most important aspect of all this is to maximize your investment so to speak. Once you develop an effective level of performance, do not be fooled into wasting it on investments with little or no return.

    Women want you to be honest “vulnerable” and “open”. Notice there is no cultural call for women to be “open” and “vulnerable”. It is “assumed” they already are when in fact they are far more duplicitous, covert and ambivalent. Each one is literally a walking lie to some degree. Every man no matter his level of success is human and possesses some weakness. Women want to know what makes you tick so they can use any weakness you have against you. Why else would “vulnerability” be so important to them?

    Every relationship is temporary. Men are indispensable to women. Without us, they would not be enjoying all the modern inventions that facilitate leisure, literally enabling feminism and optimization of the FI. Each woman is dispensable and her sexual value is short lived. Each one can be replaced. They are to be enjoyed and employed, not worshiped or begged for.

  47. @Rollo,

    Your prince post is frankly your most humorous (I’d love to hear people disagree with me on that). But I’m not certain how it applies, help me out.

  48. @Jeremy

    Pfffft, hahaha. I’m not exactly being Pollyanna here; I’m just looking at trends and incentives.

  49. @Sun Wukong
    May 19th, 2015 at 10:34 am

    On advice to @Nathan doctor in training:

    Sun … we are sure a lot alike dude, but I have the degree: BSCS. I’m in the exact same boat; same career; same mindset towards money. Dang.

    And yes the advice Sun gives is spot on. With one caveat. DO NOT BELIEVE THE LIES THAT A PRENUPT CAN PROTECT YOU IN DIVORCE.

    Having a prenuptial agreement is like a red flag to the corrupt lawyers and judges in Family Court. It is a license to RAPE A MAN. You have a prenupt for only 1 reason: PROTECT ASSETS. Those assets now become a TARGET for your lawyer, her lawyer, her, and the Judge. The judge profits the most. The longer he drags it out the more the lawyers can steal from you and the bigger the bribes/kickbacks the judge will get. Its a shakedown racket plain and simple. AND YOU WILL LOSE.

    If you have a prenupt you will likely be in court far, far, far, far longer than a typical divorce, independent of circumstances. Take your worst divorce nightmare and now double or triple it, if you have a prenupt. You will likely end up losing everything anyway. A prenupt gains you nothing and can actually make things worse.

    Confronting a judge over his refusal to enforce the law or even rule on the prenupt until they have stolen all your assets: will end up with you in JAIL.



    Red Pill truth we already know: YOU”VE BEEN LIED TO

    Well, you’ve been lied to about prenuptial agreements.





  50. Sorry for all that shouting. I was and still am pissed and its been years.

    And people need to learn this and learn it well.

    Prenupts mean nothing. You’ve been lied to.

  51. Wouldn’t part of building a world for her to live in include having assets that are hidden from her? What fun is it to live in a world where all the gold known to exist has already been discovered? Prenups are a failure because they’re an attempt at using the rules of the FI to prevent the feminine from getting what it wants. That’s like trying to use the rules of monopoly to prevent the player who is the banker from swiping a few extra bills.

    Hide assets, hide savings. She doesn’t need to know what you’re truly worth, and she’ll always respect you for having more than she thought you did. Never use prenups to prevent her access.

  52. wow,
    728 comments and running from “the-dangers-of-the-red-pill”. That must be your record right Rollo ?.

    I am still on them, I hate to miss good comments but this is starting to be burdensome hehe.

    Thanks Glenn for your words, watch out for those mountain lions, sounds like a great place.

    1. @Not born this morning
      “The rewards of performance and performance itself should never be sacrificed to gain access to a woman’s intimacy.

      We are conditioned to believe that “hard work”, honesty, integrity, generosity, provisioning, etc. alone will earn respect and make us attractive. ”

      This is so damn hard for me to internalize.
      But when you see it for whatever reason it shines on its own. I think of literally buildin a rocket ship for some reason.
      When you bring up vulnerability this is evident as well. The more vulnerable I was the more people would be pissed off at me. I didn’t perform I didn’t act.
      You will get punished for not appeasing the people you are performing for. For me I learned by getting rejected and banned from places of interest. I seriously think that Frame and a point of Origin can do good things with a good performance. I started doing stand up to get out of my comfort zone and it’s broken this so called vulnerability up to pieces.
      Getting in touch with my inner ass hole and kept me and my Frame up. The beta is dying haven’t been able to kill him. Going an a run now and I’ll see how much further I get.
      Your input and Tilikum is essential and I give thanks.

  53. [I’m putting my previous thread’s response here, as it is just as relevant, and it saves folks from doubling-back. You have to have a frame to maintain it. A strong frame, an “attractive to women” one, can’t be faked. I have a gal here in my kingdom who is along for the ride: her name’s not on the deed. Mine is. “…or the highway” No “fairness” about it.]

    [My “beef” with the expression “MGTOW” is the context. Most see it as women-based, where the reality is more “MAN-based true-to-one’s-self” motivation… women are just around and have little to do with what motivates me. Don’t “build a frame” for women, build a frame that is your own entire kingdom – then squaws will line up at your tee-pee begging to be the one to chew your leather soft, whether you want them to or not. It’s a by-product of proper ambition/frame, not a goal in itself.]

    I get “troll” quite a bit for prompting uncomfortable thoughts. No “oops” about it.

    You do realize that Neo took drugs offered by a stranger, right? Nobody thought Morpheus was trolling Neo by offering up some pills. No troll about it, guys, just the straightest dope I can muster – take it or leave it.

    My “weights up-and-down-like-so-many-dick-strokes” ranting is a thought-starter that a lot of dudes here could use, I think.

    It’s the hamster-wheel, the treadmill, the ultimate in Quixotic. All that time, energy, and money… for what?

    My point, and trust I’ve been at the gym plenty in the past, is that the expended energy and time is ultimately a waste. The value ISN’T there, as many would like to come up with excuses for their lifestyles to try to prove it IS. How many people watch the TV while at the gym? That’s like jerking your dick with one hand and fingering your ass with the other. Been there, done that, couldn’t live with myself for it.

    Needing to hit the gym is a side-effect of the lifestyle. Change the lifestyle, and you eliminate the need for a gym membership, among other things. My “workout” is now just whatever seasonal work that needs doing. Not only is it free, but the work I accomplish PAYS ME, and I don’t have to go anywhere.

    Working out is just ONE “masturbatory” snow-job that many believe in. The TRUE cost isn’t just the membership. You have to factor in all “costs”, like time, stress, gas, car maintenance, spandex, and mental health. Oh, and the exposure: exposure to airborne illness, ghetto thugs, car accidents, crime, and ambient filth in general. So, when guys take the red pill, often they keep “RP” in the context of women instead of expanding that critical thinking and perspective to all other elements of their lives. If they fully trip on the dose, women will be dead-last on the priority list.

    No, it doesn’t take years of training to unplug from the city. No, I’m not “off the grid”: I am typing on a computer, with “high speed” internet, so it is not like I’m living in some sort of cave; as some sort of Grizzly Adams. We have all the libraries of the world at our fingertips, so any “how do I?” questions’ answers are a clickety-click-click away.

    The “quality of life in the meantime” is what drove me out of the urban environment. I stopped looking at a rural lifestyle as a non-option: I opened up ALL my options for REAL, OBJECTIVE consideration. And, I found that the reality was that SOooooOOOooo many “I have to do this so I can do that” closed-loops of futility were able to be eliminated in the process of severing ties with the city.

    I can still do all the “city stuff”, when I want to, if I want to. But, now, I’m not submerged in it, or plagued by it, or “coping” with it. I can simply visit on the weekends …or not. “A man is only as good as his options” comes to mind, here.

    Think of it like this: Instead of waiting for the weekends to be out in nature, I’m in it all the time, and have the option of visiting “civilization” [psshf…] on weekends, or whenever, as I choose, or as time/priority permits.

    The best time to plant a tree isn’t spring, or fall, but 20 years ago. The second best time is today. So, when you think of your goals, ambitions, and future, what about right now? What about tomorrow? Are they going to suck for a long, long time? How about you flip it around and make changes towards your goals NOW, be it however slight, just make those improvements: not just parrot some group-think or drone out excuses out of fear. Just as with approach anxiety, it’s a TALL cliff to dive off of, I’ll be the first to agree. Still, let “quality of life in the meantime” bang around in your head throughout your days, and, see if neighbors fighting/fucking, sirens, doors slamming, traffic jams, smog, lines/queues, and the rest of that level of Dante’s inferno doesn’t start motivating you treat yourself to less hell and more nirvana.

    Tell me, “I love the city”, and I’ll agree, because you’ve surely known nothing else. Grab your sack and do something crazy. Or, sit and rot, waiting in line choking on crummy air, to get into the gym and “get in shape”.

    Oh, I put “in shape” in quotation marks because, physical shape is one thing, but how “in shape” is the rest? To me, the biggest, most jacked-est dudes are to be pitied: so much wasted effort! Do they really have no other ambition? Is there nothing more rewarding than “being big” to them? Up-and-down, up-and-down, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, as if it never occurs to them that doing something right the first time would mean that, once the weight is “up”, you do something with it besides put it back down. Lather-rinse-repeat, like a recurring nightmare.

    Apply the red pill to the rest of the hyper-mundane routines and rituals in your lives and watch the changes start happening: seriously, be critical, find the patterns of suck and break them.

    Here’s a quick example: Razors. They’re expensive. Crazy pricey, unjustifiably so. So? I bought myself a straight razor, strop, mug, soap, proper brush, stones, and strop dressing. All totaled, about $100 buy-in. Then, I did some research, and, taught myself to shave with a straight-edge. Better shave, and, I never have to buy another chinese razor blade again. Tah-DAH!

    Two birds with one stone. Scary? Maybe. Cut myself? A few dings here-and-there. But now? I can knock out a shave job, drunk, in a matter of minutes on the way out the door to an impromptu club meet-up – no blood – baby’s ass smooth in a way that no safety razor can hold a candle to. Ooh! And, it never “loads up” when I take off the winter beard: one pass with, re-lather, one pass against, rinse, done.

    Uh… that was like, uh…, about 12-15 years ago. It’s more than paid for itself. And, the better shave job and the meditation of the ritual is priceless.

    More money in my pocket for a down-payment? Three birds. Do I shave with a straight razor to impress anyone? Shit no; though it has happened that folks have been impressed and wanted to sit on the toilet to watch, I wouldn’t be so brazen as to count it as a “fourth bird”. Of course, I could have just stopped shaving altogether…

    The red-pill enables powerful magic, but you need to teach yourself the spells.

    Don’t stop at “Novice wizard” messing with enchanting women, push yourself to full-on Warlock and re-create your world.

    Your world, your lifestyle, your kingdom, THAT’s your frame. Build it, maintain it, protect it, as YOUR frame is all that’s constant YOUR future. Women may, or may not be in your future.

    1. @Vulpine
      “And, the better shave job and the meditation of the ritual is priceless.”
      That’s the one part of the red that gets me smiling.
      Being able to cut your facial hair without spending money. I use to bleed a lot an have cuts all over before I got it remotely rigth.
      I hang out in nature even as I type this I am at the gym.
      Getting ready for a run.
      With gratitude

  54. Just for the record, Jeremy, I would like to be thought of as a shining optimist on TRM. I don’t think I have complained much.

    @Nathan I’ve been there and done that. Not all professions are equal in what you have to bring to table. I would highly recommend being a physician. But only if you commit yourself to being the best you can possibly be. And only if can accomplish being excellent.

    Problem is that until you get well through fellowships. (And realize medical school and residence is one shit test after another in one or three week increments in a different setting each time. One shit test after another. And you know what, if you can accomplishing passing 75% of the shit tests, then you can come out the other end as an accomplished male that happens to be a doctor.

    One problem is until you get where you are going in your career, you are low man on the totem pole as far as DHV. You will see that every single day. ………Besides, no one’s interested in something you didn’t do…….

    I would highly recommend being good at masturbating yourself well and delay gratification for the future. You are going to need to do that.

    One good thing about Residencies is you can choose a location that has better women (all other things being equal). The bad thing is you have to get into a good one with your qualifications.

    I actually chose my first residency based on the reputation for hot looking nurses. I Sat there at my medical school on nursing shift change and saw 40 nurses walk by. I imagined that only half of one was up to my standards.
    So I chose a different hospital in a different city. Three months into the residency I met my current wife (27 years ago). She was hot and she’s an excellent person.


    “May 19th, 2015 at 10:34 am
    Thank you for responding.
    Please any more? The issue w delayed gratification is that thete is no sensyal abandon, no euphoric irresponsibility.
    There is tok much cetebral Appolonian control.
    I don’t want to swing to the opposite extreme, yet but it sure seems easier and, really, nothing about the count Rt inspire me to good work, community building anymore.
    Thete is just no goodness in it”

    Maybe if you go back and type that again when you have fewer tears in your eyes I can help you more with your med school mindset. As I say, I’ve been there, seen and done that and I’m an optimist.

    Your last sentence is a beta tell. In my life I’ve seen the goodness overwhelmingly beat badness over and over.

  55. ” . . . mug, soap, proper brush . . .”

    These were invented by a barber for marketing purposes, to give himself something that appeared to distinguish himself from other barbers. Once other barbers followed suit to even the field, they became viewed as intrinsic to the process.

    They can be replaced by a bit of baby shampoo on your palm. “Lather” is not necessary at all, only lubrication, which is primarily for the benefit of the blade, not your face.

    Just a bit of return red pill for you. I disagree with some of your specifics, but not with your general perspective. You are, in essence, absolutely correct.

  56. If ‘X’ equals satisfaction in one’s life and satisfaction equals value, solve for ‘X’

    Answer: X = any activity that brings satisfaction to an individual man.

    So if lifting brings a man satisfaction, then lifting has value.


  57. @sjfrellc

    “Three months into the residency I met my current wife (27 years ago). She was hot and she’s an excellent person.”

    ….for you. In that moment. It’s important not to lose sight of relative value vs. absolute value when we discuss such things.

    Its also why I scratch my head at the concept of optimism, pessimism, positives and negatives. No such equation exists inside of human behavior. Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting.

    Change the behavior, and you control the system.

    1. @Tilikum
      “Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting.

      Change the behavior, and you control the system.”

      That’s a wonderful thing to contemplate. Thank you

  58. kfg:

    Ok, “any soap that has high glycerine” will suffice FAR better than any canned shave cream as they contain alcohol, a skin irritant, it’s true. Though, the post was long enough, no need to get into the science. Folks would come to that as they did their own research, if it even appealed to them.


    Bru, lifting has value, sure, I get that. What you are lifting, to what ends, may not. That is the point you are missing by trying to validate your need to go to a gym. Going to the gym is great, if you must, but, building the Great Wall of China was greater, hands-down, no comparison.

    Big picture: the “gym” is just a literary device. Get over the device and see the point.

  59. “So if lifting brings a man satisfaction, then lifting has value.”

    The problem that Vulpine is trying bring thought to, is that it reverses the arrow of causality, making the tool the goal. As per my maxim that doing work to burn calories makes as much sense as driving a car to burn gas.

    We do not do work in order to use energy, we use energy in order to do work.

    And building a rock wall not only gives you the temporary satisfaction of working, it also gives you the lasting satisfaction of having built a rock wall.
    A rock wall you can point to decades later and say, “There. I did that. My work altered the world.”

    Disclaimer of Bias: Of the 3 hours of “cardio” I did yesterday, about 2 1/2 hours of it was done purely for the satisfaction it brought me and was actually probably counterproductive in terms of exercise.

  60. @Tilikum,

    My mistresses would agree with morality being a limiting social construct. Of course, they would never admit it though.

  61. Funny, kfg, I was just thinking of the wood pile and “I did that.” as compared to a weight bench sitting there and thinking “I did that?”

    *cue twilight zone theme*

  62. I remember bookmarking that video embedded in Bachelor Nation and not following up on watching the whole thing. I just watched (re-watched?) it entirely and it honestly feels eye-opening watching it.

    Listening to what those black american women say from the perspective that I have now, it’s stunning how selfish they really are. They can’t see it, it is impossible for them to see it, but their entire perspective is selfish. They’re so clouded with the self their solipsism creates a fog that prevents them from even correctly perceiving the world around them. That skinnier black girl, early one, says this:

    “Generally I don’t date men that have less education than I do…”

    “Considering the fact that I only have a bachelors degree I don’t really think that it’s asking that much of a person for them to have a bachelors degree or a masters degree… because I intend to get a masters degree, and I feel like when you’re trying to build a relationship with someone if you get to the state to where you want to have children that is something that you need to stress to them as being important. So if you yourself don’t have a degree you might not realize the importance of it. Granted there are situations where you know maybe you didnt have enough money to go to school or you know there are other exenuating circumstances where you couldn’t got to school but you do still realize that education is important.”

    Then, in a different context, she says this:

    “…I have to take a back seat and I have to uh you know make sure that you’re taken care of all day, I have to come in and say, “oh honey here’s dinner on the table just for you” I don’t think that that necessarily… exists but I think it might.. not.. necessarily be because… uhm, I dont think that necessarily because… black women don’t want to do it… but sometimes they don’t have time.”

    Hilarious. She’s literally a ringleader with a whip saying “PERFORM OR GET NO TREAT!” and she doesn’t realize she’s whipping the animal she claims to love. She doesn’t realize she’s a core cause of the problems she’s experiencing.

    Translation for the women who can’t see the solipsism, that woman is saying this: “If you can’t perform how I want, you’re not worth my attention. But if I can’t perform a service for you, it’s just because I don’t have time.”

    Further through the video she says:

    “I’m not saying I depend on you, but you should be able to, like I don’t, I don’t want to know that if I lose my job, you can’t help out. If I go to work and I’m making six figures, I feel like you should at least be able to make 75.”

    And then:

    “I think that we need to, place an emphasis on the family. I dont think that we hold enough emphasis on making sure that our kids are raised well, that they respect authorities… uhm, I dont know what happened to the idea of uh, it takes a village to raise a child… Unfortunately that doesn’t happen anymore.. I think if we got out and met our neighbors more often and were in commune with them then we would have .. a a, a greater community.”

    Again, hilarious. She finds both moneymaking and community important. She thinks that a lack of community is killing our society, but that’s not her responsibility, her responsibility is to make money. It’s not her job to commune with neighbors and build community… no no no no, her job is to pull in 6 figures and whip the male into shape so he makes at least $75.

    Western women are deceived animals that have no concept of their true value to human society. Then when they see society crumbling around them, they blame a “lack of community”, a lack of “it takes a village”… dear god it’s hilarious. How fucking selfish can you possibly be, to be the sex that is best at forming community bonds, that is best suited and best equipped to do this, and to be in such denial of your own value and so envious of male value that you would destroy civilization and blame it on someone else not doing the job you’re best suited for.

    It would literally be as if men stopped running the oil wells, stopped shipping goods across the oceans, stopped running the power plants, stopped doing all of the things that are required for civilization to function; and instead started preening themselves, wearing makeup and getting plastic surgery, extracting sex from women using legal force, and then blamed anyone but themselves when society collapsed. Of course, the caveat is that if men ever stopped doing what they do best for society to run, it would collapse in a day instead of a generation.

  63. Its also why I scratch my head at the concept of optimism, pessimism, positives and negatives. No such equation exists inside of human behavior. Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting.

    All things you see are constructs of a conditioned human mind, there is no other construct for any living human being, not even you. Your denial of those, or misunderstandings of them, are also constructs of a conditioned human mind, only with a different set of programming.

    Reality exists outside of our minds, we internalize it through our senses, and process all facts through filters. Morality and value judgements are inherent in our awareness as higher beings, and even you, in looking down on the notion of value judgements, are yourself exercising them.

    The “construct of the human mind” nonsense was invented by socialists and nihilistic deconstructionists not too long ago, in order to short circuit clear, scientific thinking as well as undermine notions of value, morality and judgement. The trick on everybody though is that it is nothing but sophistry and wordplay. In thinking you are above the fray in rejecting them, you are instead simply subscribing to a different set of values and casting judgement based on that.

    End of the day, Tilkum, you are no different than anybody else.

  64. There is a dude down in the Caribbean who built an island out of conch shells – like bricks – and cemented them together. Then, he built a bar on top of the island. He called it simply “Happy Island”. Google it for some pictures.

    He couldn’t have done all that lifting if he was busy with pushing metal disks up-and-down. Instead, he built himself a better world, not just contented himself with coping with the world. Proactive versus reactive. Lifting weights is reactive (to the lethargy of the lifestyle). Changing the lifestyle is proactive (eliminates the need to react).

  65. @kfg

    We do not do work in order to use energy, we use energy in order to do work.

    His mistake is to also assume uniformity of goals amongst all of us.

    I lift and remain healthy, because if I do not keep a good diet nor exercise actively, my genetics informs me that I will die between the ages of 50 to 55. My mother’s family does this like clockwork, and my father’s family is not much better. They get fat, dead by 55, no exceptions.

    Second, who cares if guys lift to be in shape? Some men have a goal of keeping some trim on their dick on occasion. As long as it isn’t an obsession and the only reason to stay fit, then who fucking cares?

    I see anti-fitness excuses and justifications all the time. In the day of the cubicle and video games, we don’t have the outlet of hard work to keep us fit, and dietary choices matter more now than ever before just to stay as healthy and fit as an average person was in the year 1965 who didn’t have to worry about such things. Berating those who attempt this seems a bit absurd (from Vulpine, not you).

  66. @ghosts of Jefferson

    Taking that elective “European Philosophy 201” course for a walk eh?

    No matter, the dark skull of irrelevance is grinning at you from behind the pixels on your screen. Ever knowing at your attempts to order everyone into your equalist frame.

    Put a different way, there are big guys with big dicks that do what they want, and then there are the rest of ya, squirt.

  67. “In the day of the cubicle and video games, we don’t have the outlet of hard work to keep us fit, and dietary choices matter more now than ever before just to stay as healthy and fit as an average person was in the year 1965 who didn’t have to worry about such things.”

    Ahhh… gotta love the shaming. Nice touch.

    *makes “right over your head” hand gesture*


    *makes it again*

    Right over.

  68. This article is Gold. I’ve always had a nagging feeling that there was something wrong in the seduction community. And it eventually hit me square on the head in that men are basing their entire ambitions and purpose on chasing women, getting good at game and obtaining notch counts.

    While it’s great to have the abundance and social freedom to navigate the dating mindfield that it is. The reality of it is, men need a higher purpose that are above women and sex.

    I’ve yet to meet more than 3 guys in the community who I can say are balanced individuals. They all have demons to slay that they can’t seem to be rid of, which makes them do what they do.

    A PUA or Seducer could argue that abundance with women is the cure, but it’s still not solving the underlying problem. Like any addiction, you’re overcoming the need for pussy by having access to more pussy. In other words, you’ve essentially become a slave to it.

    1. @Onder Hassan
      “They all have demons to slay that they can’t seem to be rid of, which makes them do what they do.”
      That is very real for me.
      Pussy is a side product. I’ve learned to focus on myself.
      For some reason the Alpha mindset helps me focus more on me and Frame than on Pussy.
      I still think about it a lot sometime but try to change my thoughts none the less. Which fails…
      I have found the root causes of many of my demons here on this blog.
      One of which was being blamed for the misfortunes of others. I know about shit tests. I know about me more than before. A majority of my demons are from a huge lack of appropriate consensual emotional fulfillment from my primary caregivers growing up.
      At this point however I am tackling those demons.
      Women than just become a complement.
      I am the focus.

  69. There’s another subtle point to be made about that video…

    Look at the faces of the black women from Brazil at the end of the video. Then go look at the faces of the American black women. Try to correct for fat content if you can in your mind. The facial body language of the Brazilian women is so much better there is no contest. They literally move up 1-2 points just on how pleasant an expression they maintain on their faces. Black american women look like they’re the ones from an impoverished country, just by the frustration on their faces.

  70. @Tilkum

    Big guys with big dicks do whatever they want, granted, but not because they reject values and judgement as human mental artifacts. End of the day you can’t get away from having to process the world through a human brain. Unless you’re an alien being, you are no different than any other man, no matter how much you think you’re above the fray. You’re just loading a different program, but the processor and RAM are the same. There’s no escaping it. Even your response to me about big guys with big dicks is a value statement and judgement.

    Value: Big guys with big dicks -> Men who hold values I wish to convey, or wish to model myself after because…

    Judgement: Do whatever they want -> I’ve noted that they act in a way that I approve of and get results I want, ergo, I wish to emulate them (or at least, admire them)

    Condition, reaction, solution -> Condition, value expression, judgement

    You value the ability to express an opinion to others (for whatever reasons, which also rely on value and judgement), ergo, you judge that you will need do so on a given device using an agreed upon medium of communication, in this case, the English language. Value -> judgement.

    Equalism is normally invalid in a political sense, but biology is apolitical. You are what you are, your brain is hard wired to process and make judgements based on values you assume, it’s a prime facet of what makes us human in the sense of having higher intelligence, you can’t change that no matter how much sophistry and smirking you do. Only feral animals in the true sense are amoral and make no judgements, they simply respond to their instincts. This is why we do not hold a tiger culpable for murder when it kills and eats its prey. It has no moral agency to make choices or exercise judgement. And that’s all she wrote, the pencil broke.

    End of the day, you ain’t a special snowflake, man. Nobody gets to sit on the fence when it comes to how the human mind functions. You’ll be holding and expressing values and making judgements on those values until the day you lose consciousness permanently.

    To quote a long gone band’s lyrics “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”. Heh.

    Not trying to pick on you, I just wonder sometimes why you think you’re an outside to the human condition. You’re not.

    Now we go further. You either value being right (or proving your point, however you wish to view it), in which case you will judge that I need responded to in the manner of your choosing, or you truly do not believe in values and judgement and will walk away. That simple.

    Off topic, to be certain.

  71. Vulpine

    Shaming? Did I say something incorrect? Do cubicle workers and people in the much more prevalent non-physical professions not need exercise to stay healthy then?

    You conveniently omitted my qualifier. I guess the need to type “zoom” overwhelmed you.

    If I am not climbing mountains every day, or working in a factory, as a normal man in the West I must by needs partake in physical activity to stay healthy. My qualifier is that I must by needs do so, or my family’s history informs me that I get to die early.

    Zoom. Right over your head.

    Not everybody falls under your blanket. And if you felt that was shaming, then clearly you must feel some sense of shame, because frankly it wasn’t a shaming attempt at all, it was a simple statement of facts. It is logistically and economically impossible for everybody to be out building conch shell bars. We don’t even have an industrial base, much, any longer where men can go for good honest labor and not have to worry about things like staying in shape. The alternative is what, then, precisely? Maybe you can live to 90 doing little physical labor, and good on you if that’s the case, but most people cannot.

    Super pumped muscleheads you have a point in a sense, but a man who spends a couple of days a week working out in order to not balloon out to 300 pounds and die by the age of 50 is not some object of ridicule no matter what you say.

    Zoom. With hands and shit.

  72. Well, Rollo did say in his post:

    “We can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a MGTOW perspective, it’s important for a Man to have a world into which a woman might enter. ”

    I guess us commenters proved him right, as we often do.

    Let me be the first to say than, that one of the biggest reasons I lift is to be more attractive to women, and specifically more attractive to women than most other men are.

    I like being attractive, I like the attentions of women, I like sex.

    I do care what women think of me. Not in a, “does she like me?” sort of way, but in a, “am I attractive to the opposite sex?” way.

    I lift in order to get what I want from women, nothing wrong with that.

    1. I like sex far too much to ever let myself get out of shape, and Mrs. T has always know that’s been a benchmark for our relationship.

      I enjoy a lot of health and social benefits from having been in the physical top 10% among my peers for my life, but I’m not afraid to admit that the thought of “fat sex” fills me with revulsion.

  73. It is an incorrect assessment of shame to presume it is never medicine that you need. Medicine and poison are concepts that are only separated by the thin line of dosage.

  74. @Cave

    I lift in order to get what I want from women, nothing wrong with that.

    Perfectly legit and honest.

    See a desired goal, figure out the obstacles to overcome to achieve the goal, surmount obstacles, achieve goal.

    I think many make the mistake of being too binary. That is “If you’re working out and want to have sex with women, then that is your only goal in life, sperge sperge sperge”. Why is that? Why not work out for one goal, improve your mind for another goal, enjoy your work because it fulfills other needs, etc? We are complex creatures of high intellect, we can have a bucket full of higher and lower goals we’re constantly pursuing. If you want sex with women (most men, even the “alphas” do) then you can’t get by being a 450 pound whale and expect results. If you ONLY want sex with women, and only pursue goals to get them, eschewing other social and intellectual and physical activities, that’s another story entirely. I doubt many fall into the later camp.

  75. I don’t believe the point of the red pill is to reject social constructs.

    I believe the point is to see them for what they are, and then use them to your advantage.

    “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king” and all that.

    Neo unplugs from the matrix, and then uses a program, “the construct” to reenter the matrix and further his agenda.

    But if you wish to use your knowledge to move to Zion, stay out of the matrix, and build a house out of coconut shells…go for it.

  76. GhostOfGeorgeJefferson,

    Before you try to re-assert the green-ness of your trees, go back and read up about the forest, Forrest.

    You’re seriously clowning yourself at this point. Go back, read it slower.


    You’re quickly rowing GOJ’s boat. It’s understood that big muscles are attractive and whatnot. That’s not the point…

    Moreover, in this context, in this venue, I can’t imagine anyone giving a fuck why either of you workout: it’s understood why health matters.

    Meanwhile, I’m done trying to enlighten you dolts, I’m going fishing. Free food is out there just waiting for me to pick it up …like so many weights ready to be lifted.

  77. @Vulpine

    Ad hominem, which explicitly implies that you wish for us to adopt your way of thinking, all the while you are telling us not to give a fuck. Weird isn’t it? We’d have to give a fuck about your analysis to adopt it after all.

    The circularity, wee.

    You assume some kind of silly moral and intellectual superiority over a simple choice you have made. So you don’t work out. Good for you. Others do. Why the fuck do you care? Further, why should we care if you care? Because you might call us dolts? Oh noooes.

    Next, please make a huge moral stand over whether we should or should not use mustard on our bratwursts. We crave your approval.

  78. Make sure you go to your favorite discount big-box retailer before your fishing trip, makes fishing easier when you buy all the gear to fish with.

    If you still want your food to be free, you’ll probably have to steal the supplies though.

    Maybe we’ll see you on youtube or liveleak, running out of a walmart with an arm full of tackle?

    Catch one for me!

  79. That’s just a bizarre conversation.

    Working out is part of building yourself a man. Building yourself as a man is what you must do, it is your toil, it is what makes you. You can separate yourself from women all you want, but you’ll still be building yourself as a man. You may want to separate yourself as much as you can from the FI, that’s fine. But on what basis can ongoing self-improvement be regarded as anything other than positive?

  80. Indeed Rollo.

    And I am a bit confused on how spending a bit of time in the gym every week means that I am somehow neglecting other things that bring me pleasure in life? In fact, how doesn’t working out bring me pleasure, as I seem to remember there is a very real effect of a “high” with serious athletes, a visceral and craved pleasure. What if I value that more than, for example, gluing shells on the beach together? Should I eschew the weightlifting so that I can validate somebody else’s pleasure mechanism? Makes no sense.

    Sex is great, life is great, pleasure is great, health is great and each of us can all pursue a whole host of goals at the same time. This either-or binary way of viewing things that some people have always confuses me. I’ll lift…THEN…I may head to the beach with some Elmer’s. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

    I enjoyed today’s post, btw, quite a bit. It fits in nicely with how I’ve come to see things. Maybe it’s because we’re pretty much the same age, dunno, but I can really relate to your take on the matter.

  81. Just back from an hour of active recovery on the bike. I would have liked to do more, as it’s the first week of full green here in the north country and I was enjoying myself immensely, but wisdom (enhanced by a twinge between the shoulder blades) prevailed.


    ” . . . as healthy and fit as an average person was in the year 1965 . . .”

    I remember that as about the time people discovered what rotten shape civilization had gotten them in (although the same had been discovered in the late 1800s). Just after the President’s Council on Physical Fitness and just before the publication of Aerobics.

    Who could have known that humanity was about to go sea mammal?

    ” Berating those who attempt this seems a bit absurd (from Vulpine, not you).”

    Well, as I said, I do have some specific disagreements with him, and you have read some of those elsewhere. On the other hand, while he isn’t framing his argument in the most soothing of tones, I don’t see him as berating fitness either, just gym rathood.

    My family genetics suggest that, if I take care of myself, people shouldn’t be surprised to see me cruising past them on a bike path as part of my centennial celebration, but my personal (recessive) genetics suggest that I’ve been dead for more than 50 years already.

    Diet and exercise have been absolutely crucial to my continued existence.

  82. @Vulpine – You sure do like to hear yourself talk, doncha? Your line of analysis can be thought of as “Luddite” or worshipping the pastoral life or ultimately as a rejection of modernity. In fact, for those of us who do work other than manual labor, the need for exercise is paramount. I know, you would re-design the world so everyone does physical labor and grows their own food and become Adonis like through the magic of your thinking. Lol.

    And of course, the life you believe we should all live used to be common – and men lived to the age of 42, famines were frequent, infectious diseases were rampant and many, many people lived lives of endless toil just to survive. That is unless you can figure out how a research scientist or an engineer can design things and grow all their own food at the same time – what, you didn’t think of that? Lol. I mean, do you get how absurd and silly your “reasoning” is? Of course not, but many of us here do.

    Of course you are welcome to prattle on as you do, Carry on, meanwhile I’m going to continue doing knowledge work for 175/hour and then go to the gym tonight for a great workout and sauna. And I’m not doing it for women, any more than I’m doing anything in my life for what I want. The paradox of the Red Pill for me is accepting how central sex is to my identity and happiness – not women. It just so happens I have to fuck women to enjoy sex. I also like steak, and need money to buy it and have to go to the store to get it – does that mean steak runs my life? And if I like steak, does doing what it takes to have steak make me pathetic?

    Stop being so silly. And good luck with that off-the-grid stuff, you only can even think about living that way because many, many others do not.

  83. @Rollo – This is a really great exploration of equalism (egalitarian equalism is redundant unless you can explain how it isn’t). While I will not take this thread into politics, one has to understand how the notion of “fairness” is tied to the equalism fetish. And of course, all these recent sill ideas about equality and fairness arise from leftist political and moral philosophy, starting with say Bentham and Mills in our modern world.

    Now our society reeks of it because people are programmed from birth to believe that something called “equality” is achievable in society. And since Rawls A Theory of Justice redefined fairness in broad ways that were incredibly useful to progressives and reconstructed Marxists, bammo that’s the gas on the fire. Of course, the FI is a motivator of all this – I’m not arguing primacy here. But the political ideas at work arise from something much more sinister in human nature than the FI as well, namely jealousy and sloth. It’s the path of least resistance and is an ego boost to boot. I mean, you can now be lazy and fuck up your life – but if you riot about it and are the right color/identity or have the correct politics, you are good to go. Illegal aliens, minorities, feminists, anarchists, Occupy Wall Street – there is a reason all these riots/protests look the same.

    Don’t believe me folks? Think I’m just going on about politics again? Do yourselves a favor and Google who was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1998 by Bill Clinton? The inventor of this new notion of fairness, John Rawls. Clinton said he “saved democracy”.

    When this impulse hit’s a baser impulse like the FI – that’s how you destroy the most successful human society on earth in 3 generations. Of course, the left is also exploiting the global memeplex, a term most of you guys here just breeze by when I’ve mentioned it in the past, but that is the instrument which is most powerful in making this all so. That’s also why the left focused on overtaking the press, arts, academia, education and govt itself since this is how the global memeplex is driven.

  84. “But the political ideas at work arise from something much more sinister in human nature than the FI as well, namely jealousy and sloth.”

    One might argue that these are, themselves, features of the FI, where they are most pronounced. More an essential factor of the quilting bee than of the hunting party.

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