I had an interesting conversation this week with my good friend Ray and a couple of my designers, Sadie and Sam (names changed to protect the innocent). Just a little background first; Sadie is the Japanese woman I mention in Mental Point of Origin. She’s been divorced once and her relationship history is one punctuated by her involvement with Beta men.
She’s is the definition of the opportunistic concept of female love, but her frustration comes from never having been able to consolidate on an optimized Hypergamy – she simply doesn’t have attractiveness or feminine pleasantry to generate the Alpha interest that would satisfy her. Thus, she attracts Beta orbiters looking for some low hanging fruit, and force-fits them into a contextual Alpha frame. In other words, she opportunistically entertains the Betas with provisioning potential and hopes they’ll man up into dominant Alphas. Thus far she’s been disappointed.
Sam is a gay man in his early 30s who makes a good living afforded by not having children and possessing a high calibre technical skill set. He’s got the outgoing, “look at me, I’m special because I’m gay” exuberance I expect from gay men, but he’s not flamboyant and can still be professional when he has to be. He’s been “dating” a new guy for a while now and has moved this guy into his home recently. He took part in our conversation because the issues of sharing resources, money and picking up half the rent (in his case mortgage) in a relationship came up.
Ray has been one of my best friends for over 15 years now and he’s the guy I mention in Good Girls Do. He’s worked for me directly or indirectly for most of that time and he’s notorious for starting conversations like this when we have downtime. He’s a firestarter, it’s what I like about him, and among the three he’s the only one who knows my online reputation. Ray is Red Pill aware so he knows how to prompt a controversial conversation with me when we’re in mixed company.
Ray: “RT, hypothetical question…”
RT: “Do I have to?”
Ray: “Let’s say you move your girlfriend in with you…”
RT: “Let’s say I don’t and I would never do that. End of hypothetical.”
Ray: “No, I know, but, say you did, and let’s say your rent is $1,000 a month. Would you tell your girlfriend ‘Hey the rent is $1,000 a month how about you pay $300 and I’ll pay $700 or would you say 50/50?”
RT: “No. I’d pay it all myself. I’d also be sure that only my name was on the lease.”
Sadie:”What? Why, that’s silly?”
Ray: “You wouldn’t expect any contribution?”
RT: “No. I wouldn’t turn it down if she took it upon herself to contribute, but I wouldn’t expect it from a girl I (foolishly) brought into my living arrangement.”
Sadie: “You wouldn’t expect her to pay half?”
RT: “No. If I can’t provide my own $1,000 rent or food, or to keep the lights on, I have no business bringing a woman into that arrangement. If I have more than enough for myself I don’t need her paying. Besides, if she’s that into living with me, she’ll want to contribute in other ways and I wont have to ask.”
Sam: “You don’t think it should be an equal split? Maybe that’s a man and a woman thing…”
RT: “Yes and no. I’m sure between you and your boyfriend there’s a more dominant personality right?”
Sam: “Yeah, me.”
RT: “And you probably make more money too. So there’s really no ‘equality’ when it comes down to it.”
Sadie: “I expect my boyfriend to pay half the rent.”
RT: “Of course you do, because women think in terms of equality when it works to their advantage. What if your ‘boyfriend’ could pay for all the rent, utilities and most of everything else? Would you still try to pay half?”
Sadie: “Yes of course.”
RT: “What if he only paid just half and you knew it was a better deal for him?
Sadie: (tentative) “Yes,…”
RT: “I doubt that, but what you’re saying is that you’d limit improving your way of life to maintain a belief in equality.”
Sadie: “All the guy’s I’ve lived with have been mooches.”
RT: “Which explains why you’re not living with them any more. It goes both ways, women don’t respect men they need to support. All this stuff about equality in relationships is nonsense.If your boyfriend could easily make rent while you struggled to come up with it you’d resent him for it. There is no equal division.”
Sam: “I guess I see what you’re saying, but the expectation is still the same even for me and [boyfriend].
RT: “There is no equality in a relationship, but there can be complementarity where either person’s benefits can offset the needs of the other.”
Ray: “So you and Mrs. T aren’t 50/50?”
RT: “Ray, I make about 4 times the money that she does, how is there ever going to be anything like equality with that kind of balance?”
Ray: “But what about chores and shit?”
RT: “I take care of the outside of the house, she takes care of the inside. I do the smelly dirty jobs, she keeps the fresh cleaning ones, it’s not rocket science.”
Sam: “Sounds like you just want to stay in the power position.”
RT: “Yes, but it’s only a power play if you’re exploiting your partner. Women like to say they want an equal partner, but they don’t, do they Sadie? They want someone to respect and look up to. So when that comes down to numbers, to money, what’s really holding you together? Love? Mutual interests? (at Sam) Right now you can’t help but be the more dominant one in your relationship. So do you stop being so just to balance things? Do you expect [boyfriend] to pick up the slack more?
The Cardinal Rule of Relationships
In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.
This principle isn’t so much about ‘power’ as it is about control. This might sound like semantics, but it makes a difference. It’s very easy to slip into binary arguments and think that what I mean by the cardinal rule of relationships is that one participant must absolutely rule over the other – a domineering dominant to a doormat submissive. Control in a healthy relationship passes back and forth as desire and need dictate for each partner. In an unhealthy relationship you have an unbalanced manipulation of this control by a partner. Although control is never in complete balance, it becomes manipulation when one partner, in essence blackmails, the other with what would otherwise be a reinforcer for the manipulated under a healthy circumstance. This happens for a plethora different reasons, but the condition comes about by two ways – the submissive participant becomes conditioned to allow the manipulation to occur and/or the dominate initiates the manipulation. In either case the rule still holds true – the one who needs the other the least has the most control. Nowhere is this more evident than in interpersonal relationships.
When I was writing this post many years ago I hadn’t fully considered how this rule interacts with, and contradicts, many of the tenets of egalitarian equalism. The idealistic state of that equalism is one in which two co-equal, yet independent people come together in a perfect union of balance. In theory that balance should account for resources, emotional investment, family considerations, as well as intellectual and social status aspects of either partner.
These considerations alone should be enough to illustrate equalitarianism as the manipulative farce it is, however, all we really need to do is take into account the Cardinal Rule of Relationships. It’s very easy to be accused of being controlling when you embrace the truth of this rule – and particularly so when the reigning social undercurrent is one in which everyone ought to be co-equal rational actors.
I expected to have that leveled at me in this conversation, but it’s important to bear in mind the real nature of power. By my own definition, power is the degree of control we exercise over the direction of our own lives. As I mentioned, I don’t mind being the more powerful partner in terms of resources in my marriage because I accept that stupid notions of maintaining anything like “equality” is simply infeasible. I know more than a few men who’ve sold their lives’ potential away in the belief that they should lessen themselves in order to support a more balanced, equalist ideal. Ultimately their relationships, marriages and families suffer because they never own that potential – just the idea of owning it is a source of guilt and shame.
For all of the bleating about more equitability being needed between men and women. the fundamental truth is that it’s neither a realistic nor workable state. I’ve used money for my illustration here, but this applies to many other facets of an intersexual relationship. From an equalist perspective this sounds a lot like a want for creating a condition of dependency, but in truth it is an unachievable state of egalitarianism that creates a never-satisfied state of dependency.
Her World or Yours?
If you go back and look at the video from Bachelor Nation you can see the dichotomy that presumptions of “equality” sows in western(izing) women today. Within the first 6 minutes of the video we see the internal contradictions inherent in women. There is a want for an idealized equal pairing, but yet a desire for a man to be a Man. The documentary finds the root of this dichotomy in modern resource imbalances between the sexes, and makes the predictable appeal to men not living up to their burden of performance. The male shame comes in contrasting women’s taking on what should be men’s performance burdens – the male obligation to which ironically flies in the face of anything like true egalitarian equalism.
Stay-at-home dads, house husbands, and anything relatable will always have a stigma attached to them in spite of any weak attempts to make them socially acceptable. That stigma is founded in a limbic-level understanding of men’s burden of performance; to be a Man is not just to produce sustainable resources, but to provide a surplus of those resources.
I recently read a poll sponsored by Forbes magazine that listed men’s top goals in life and for the first time in that poll’s history “a good physique” outranked all personal and financial ambitions for top executives. The predictable shame then followed that men aren’t “Manning Up” any more, and they’ve become vain, self-absorbed narcissists for a new focus on what image they present.
The obvious Red Pill conclusion is of course a realignment with the prevailing social perceptions (courtesy of the Feminine Imperative I might add) that women are out-earning men financially and educationally; thus the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy takes precedent. If America’s top execs are heeding the message of Open Hypergamy, why bother establishing yourself financially, academically, ambition-wise or otherwise?
The problem with this equation is evident in the Bachelor Nation video. I can understand the sentiments of MGTOW; if the opinions expressed by the quality of woman represented in the video are any indicator of a female zeitgeist it makes the idea of abandoning the Game altogether that much more appealing.
That said, and I’m going to dare to get prescriptive here, I believe that establishing yourself as an independent Man should be your top priority. I have no doubt that that sentiment will get convoluted with feminism’s Strong Independent Woman® meme, but lets clarify something first – the ideal that men ought to be strong and independent has always been the precursor to his quality as a man. Independence, self-sufficiency and determined ambitions have always been the hallmarks of a man comfortable with his burden of performance. Only in women is independence a novelty.
Yet now, in men, this independence is not just a novelty, but it’s been distorted into being an obsessive-compulsive sign of a man’s imagined insecurities. The very strength and independence men have always been expected to embody is the domain of women, while any hope for it from men is a sign of a fragile ego.
Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of who’s frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are.
I firmly believe Alpha is a mindset. That mindset can get the poorest son-of-a-bitch laid with the right application, tact and circumstance. That’s a tough pill to swallow when you work your ass off in the belief that your affluence and status should be the metric Alpha is judged by and women respond to. That’s also not to say affluence and status won’t get you laid by their own merit, it’s just the context in which that happens that makes the difference. There are many men who’ve found their retroactive cuckolding after having based their personal successes on the presumption that those successes should be the basis of his quality to women.
The concept of frame covers a lot of aspects of our daily lives, some of which we’re painfully aware of, others we are not, but nonetheless we are passively influenced by frame. What concerns us in terms of inter-gender relations however is the way in which frame sets the environment, the ambience, and the ‘reality’ in which we relate with both the woman we sarge at a bar and the relationship with the woman we’ve lived with for 20 years. One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it. The forces that influence that lack or boost of will is irrelevant – just know that the conditions of an operative framework will shift because of them.
We can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a MGTOW perspective, it’s important for a Man to have a world into which a woman might enter. Not for her sake, but for a Man’s edification.
Establish your world; you shall make your mission, not your woman your priority. Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.
Frame will kept at it.
The one with the power is the one best suited to walk away in the short term. Women don’t think long term. The trick really is to turn your female dominance game into something else. Something you actually enjoy. Last week I helped a man plan his divorce. Guy I work with. His youngest kid finally moved out and he finally knows he can do something. Get rid of that dead weight harpy who he has given so much to. Who just caws, “more, more” like some kind of robot. She’s not happy because her brain only says more. More… Read more »
[…] Building Better Worlds […]
Speaks to the heart…
On a comical note Rollo,miss T. isnt exempted from hypergamy,she may just be waiting for you to loose frame,so she can bang bikers and scream,”I cheated on Rollo Tomassi,I AM the shit”……nway,im just trolling
Im glad i know this info when still young,thanks man.
*Caw caw* more, more *caw, caw*
The call of the wife.
*Caw* Give me more! *Caw!*
There’s a furniture store commercial going around right now about a man and woman moving in with each other (two couples actually) and the punch line is their home together becomes a home with only her furniture and his is thrown out.
Being wealthy is attractive to women, no question. But further, the redpill perspective would suggest you can get laid by exude not being a beta (i.e. being a alpha), who would provide the Beta bucks. Hence it’s a balancing act not to make money too much of your appeal. Given that getting pussy is a goal for any men, really, this suggest that putting income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work is a bad idea. For people who don’t intent to build a family, does the redpill suggest that getting rich really is all that important compared to the basic capitalist… Read more »
“Given that getting pussy is a goal for any men, really, this suggest that putting income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work is a bad idea”
Making your income goals dependent on your goals to acquire pussy seems wrong from the start.
Relate it to the last line of the post:
“Establish your world; you shall make your mission, not your woman your priority. Women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it.”
I don’t see why women should not pay 50/50 or pay rent in a situation where the man makes enough money and is the sole leaser or owns his place. In this day and age, love and money should never be confounded. My house, my rules, my frame. Money is money. Maybe at some point when you have tested her enough you can tell her to not chip in anymore. I know a lot of women who’ve bought a house with the help of their parents (+money from the bank) and expect their boyfriend to pay rent. Having no problem… Read more »
The problem I keep having with the traditional division of labor is that it always ends up seeming like a shit deal for men. Even if women all ‘snapped out of it’ and tried to go back to tending homes and raising kids on men’s dimes, I’d want nothing to do with that dynamic. They end up living longer more comfortable and possibly more fulfilling lives while men kill themselves trying to maintain the image of superior manly bosshood, which equates to serving and being productive to women. in a world where women can generate money, make them pull their… Read more »
Good stuff and a thought for the newbies re: “Alpha is a mindset”. Being a completely self contained man is the goal here. If your mind is strong the body will follow suit. Your physique, your money,and other indicators of fitness have become ubiquitous (as RT mentions above, the focus on Alpha traits prevailing as females no longer require Beta Bucks) but for a guy starting out, they are positive and measurable improvements. But you have to learn to move past them as they will trap you in the same prison as beta hood and you will begin to plateau… Read more »
@bnon May 19th, 2015 at 4:12 am
I went kayaking on a river once for the first time. I was by myself and I decided to go upstream for two hours and then go downstream for an hour.
On subsequent trips I found going downstream was always more enjoyable, so I parked a bike downstream and then pedaled back to the car after the trip.
Analogous, to money. Having more money is always easier and less stressful. It’s how you get that money and how stressful the pursuit of dollars becomes from then on.
You are conflating separate ideas.
“Think of this concept kind of like a college degree. A successful guy in his 30’s with no degree has 10 times the hiring value of the same guy who towed the social line and went to school like a good little boy.” Amen. Good comment. I’m 33, no degree, working a job that would normally require a master’s degree in biz. I make more money than anyone I know, except my business partner. (1. I need to get away from having a biz partner, working on it. 2. I need to find more successful men to add to my… Read more »
Great stuff you covered in this essay with it’s multiple other sub-themes.
I was excited that you deigned to be prescriptive and then I see the comment at: May 19th, 2015 at 6:52 am by someone with an avatar name that is ironically enigmatic. Facepalm.
Except my right hand man, He’s an alpha, and women adore him. (I think he is down to 3 “girlfriends” right now)
His frame is spot on and I trust him more with my business than I do any other man.
He doesn’t have a degree either. I pay him very, very well.
@ CaveClown Educations seem really, really important for people who aren’t very smart. Prolly why chicks go nutty over credential-ism. Dave Chapelle said that if a dude could bang chicks while living in a cardboard box he would, and that is a true statement FOR AN ALPHA/SIGMA. I do really well when properly motivated, but only ever needed a cardboard box. It’s something I call “lazy Lion syndrome”. I stay way more productive than I need to simply because I have 2 young sons even though I’m old as shit haha. It’s a weird drive I discovered after I had… Read more »
Thanks again Rollo for all the work you do here; this is what I needed this morning. One comment though. Yes, Alpha is a mindset. And, Yes, women are attracted to wealth and power. And, Yes, women are attracted to tall, well built attractive men, who dress nice, and have social skills … too. And, Yes, women are not dependent financially on men anymore so being successful is not enough; its now just a prerequisite. This is why < 10% of men are attractive to women anymore. They want it all and BELIEVE they deserve it all. Even the short,… Read more »
” . . . getting pussy is a goal for any men . . .” At times taking a piss will be the most pressing goal for any man, but in between those times if he thinks about it at all there is something wrong with him. ” . . . the idea that man are superior thus it is their noble superior duty to be heroes for women to respect, is . . .” . . . just not faaaaair. Don’t get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and certainly don’t entirely disagree with it, but the… Read more »
one thing and only one thing matters to her: opportunism.
Don’t force it. She can choose to be in your frame, for she can GTFO. If you are trying to force it, you are not in your own frame to begin with.
Women will naturally follow your lead, if your frame is there. (not all of them, but enough)
Keep in mind that this is not a conscious thing for women.
Think less “vindictive whore” and more “insecure child” with women.
@Rocket You gotta learn to burn her down to the ground completely with not even a shred of compassion. Stay on her. If she keeps coming back she wants MORE. They hate themselves, each other, what they have leveraged to get where they are, they intrinsically know that the culture is as ill as their place in it. Her desire to be dominated is infinite. Think of it like obedience training a dog (I fucking hate pets BTW, apparently I am not that far out of the cave myself), the damn things just keep trying to please ya. You gotta… Read more »
“Resist your conditioning.”
@bnon and @ Rollo, Bnon said, ” Hence it’s a balancing act not to make money too much of your appeal. Given that getting pussy is a goal for any men, really, this suggest that putting income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work is a bad idea.” This really is frustrating to me! I’m hot, abs, good face, etc. but swamped SWAMPED (!) w medical school. The pretty girls I should be fucking, I see them fucking firemen Alpha MUST be a demographic. Guys who don’t give A FUCK, who do not put income focused work before enjoyment/fulfilling work/ community of”brothets”… Read more »
The problem with living like there’s no tomorrow is that tomorrow becomes your worst enemy.
“Responsibility gets nothing”
What is your responsibility to be a doctor? Where does it come from?
“Yes, Alpha is a mindset. And, Yes, women are attracted to wealth and power. And, Yes, women are attracted to tall, well built attractive men, who dress nice, and have social skills … too.” Alpha is a mindset. MINDSET. So what exactly does the rest of your comment have to do with that mindset? Sure, women are attracted to all of those things. (So are straight men, gay men, lesbians, and children btw. EVERYONE) But women are AROUSED by the mindset. You can be alpha, and be broke as hell, short, ugly, etc. (although an alpha mindset implies you have… Read more »
@CaveClown Guess saying “force it” wasn’t the right word. Here is an example, Online Dating which I gave up a few years back. Just shit for men. Online dating is one of the things that has made women so rotten today; imo. Put out a fake profile of how you “want” people to think you are with a couple of enticing pics (real or not) and instant validation when 1,000 thirsty beta’s flood your inbox with adoration. So when communicating with a girl Online she will have lists of things that she demands men meet. I won’t play that game… Read more »
“Online dating is . . .”
. . . based on the pretence that desire can be negotiated.
@Caveclown “But women are AROUSED by the mindset. You can be alpha, and be broke as hell, short, ugly, etc. (although an alpha mindset implies you have at least some sort of social skill set, if only towards playing the game with women)” Glad you brought that up. I’ve meet women who have done some horrendous things solely based off this aroused state. It was in a blue pill beta mindset. But still amazing to see how that does mean more than anything else. Maybe evolution meant it that way. @Rocket Online dating is not a good way for me… Read more »
I’ll be stealing this quote BTW.
It’s gonna get worse.
Once you’re done with your residency and if still single, you will have a huge target painted on your back for every floor nurse and tech there. And guess what, it won’t have a single thing to do with who you are as a person, merely a status/fiscal decision on her part.
Still better than being a lawyer tho! 😉
If you don’t know these places already, google: christian mcqueen and/or blackdragon blog.
Both have specific directions for online dating and such. Both are also generally upbeat and don’t condemn women for being women. (not that rollo does condemn women, not at all, just that the rational male blog teaches how the motor works, but not necessarily how to turn the wrench as a mechanic)
Rollo, if I overstepped by referring to other sites, please let me know.
@Cave, not at all, Christian is a friend:
“Maybe evolution meant it that way.”
If reproduction were rational it wouldn’t happen and the idea of The Rational Male wouldn’t have occurred.
“I’ve meet women who have done some horrendous things solely based off this aroused state. It was in a blue pill beta mindset. But still amazing to see how that does mean more than anything else. Maybe evolution meant it that way.”
Read rollo’s books. It’s all in there. lol
@Nathan It’s easier to hide wealth than to hide poverty. She don’t have to know you’re a doctor. Hell I don’t even let them know I’m an undegreed software developer anymore. I drive a fun but unassuming car and motorcycle (they were worth under $40k total for the pair new), live in a nice but not expensive place, and have a rather minimalist mindset. I could afford a lot more expensive stuff and living arrangement, but instead live very well within my means. I plan to become far more wealthy by working extremely hard, but I will not make that… Read more »
Thank you for responding.
Please any more? The issue w delayed gratification is that thete is no sensyal abandon, no euphoric irresponsibility.
There is tok much cetebral Appolonian control.
I don’t want to swing to the opposite extreme, yet but it sure seems easier and, really, nothing about the count Rt inspire me to good work, community building anymore.
Thete is just no goodness in it
@CaveClown Seen both sites; didn’t like mcqueen. Blackdragon seemed to be one of the best that I’d run across; some actual usable advice there. Most places that give online dating advice can be boiled down to the following: IMO. If you are TALL and good looking and Photogenic !!!! And do fun things like Climb Mount Everest NAKED, race Motorcycles or fly airplanes as HOBBY. And are extremely social !!! And then if you dedicate your life by spending 30 hrs a week, messaging dozens, hundreds, thousands of women; all of whom will treat you like shit. THEN eventually you… Read more »
Please forgive the typos. Writing on the phone at work
Ok. I just read the first few sentences of the post and cannot refrain from commenting without going further. Fucking hilarious, the picture is a great metaphor for what I suspect the post is about. This is great, so true. I read “Mental Point of Origin” and before reading more I want to comment on the prevalence of Asian women hooking up to what I call ultra casper milk toast extreme pussy white boys. A couple living next door to me fits this profile. She is Chinese, he is Caucasian American. He is without a doubt one of the most… Read more »
online dating is ultra depressing. It fucking sucks
Why do you say, “Still better (a doctor) than being a lawyer tho!”
Not arguing or contradicting, truly asking
Men should avoid online dating like the plague. Rollo has a good point about it being a buffer, and despite my having pulled a couple cute chicks out of it I can say that after extensive experience with it that it’s entirely weighted in the female’s favor. Any woman who is truly a decent catch doesn’t need it so you’re by default sifting through the leftovers that couldn’t do the short, easy list that Girl Game entails. On top of that there’s the massive SMV inflation that even the fat girls are getting from thirsty, stupid Betas. I could go… Read more »
@NBTM For the guy, it’s an opportunity to hook up with a chick that isn’t fat which he won’t be afforded with white chicks. For the chick, it’s a green card waiting to happen. Source: been that guy before. That being said, I generally find that non-white races are always drawn to my blue eyes and blonde hair since for a lot of races those are unusual if not almost unheard of. It’s “exotic” to an Asian chick to find herself staring at a pair of blue eyes. I’m not the sucker I was back then, but I’m not afraid… Read more »
What I took from this is, who fucking cares what women want or don’t want? You should strive to be an independent, successful man based on the merits of achievement alone, as these are traditional facets of being a man throughout history, regardless of “alpha/beta”. Sure it helps with chicks, sometimes, but who the fuck cares? If you have alpha frame regardless of your economic situation, that’s great, so why not earn some bread and live a great life regardless of the women in and out of your life?
“I’ll be stealing this quote BTW.”
Well then it turns out we’ve simply made a fair exchange.
@bnon Being wealthy is attractive to women, no question. This is actually overstating things. Wealth isn’t attractive to women, but it is a possible indicator of an alpha mindset. Resources are desired by women, that’s true, but resources don’t get them wet. Women have a complex relationship with wealth. They *need* it because they always want more, so they’ll settle for getting hitched to a beta to get it. But they also use it as a quick-measure of the men they meet in hopes of finding an alpha. It never occurs to them that the pervasiveness of the FI in… Read more »
@Sun wukong “but I will not make that wealth obvious to women; it is for me and me alone.” Yeah I think so as well… Someone who used to work with my mom ha a son at 16 who had his own mowing comapany by the time he was 18 he was already a millionaire but still drove his first ford pickup. He got a porche an women would wanna go out on dates with them when they saw him driving it. But he would always pick them up in his firs car the ford. When they would walk up… Read more »
Agree. Online dating will set you back in every instance in which it is tried for the majority of men in the middle of the bell.
“Online dating is . . .”
. . . based on the pretence that desire can be negotiated.
Like most Beta game.
Dunno exactly why Tilikum says it, but I can give you a practical reason:
We’ve got a glut of lawyers and a shortage of doctors right now in the US. Economics 101, supply and demand. Doctors are going to be more likely to be employable and command a higher price. I’ve got friends freshly graduated with law degrees right now struggling to make ends meet, meanwhile every friend with a medical degree is making money hand over fist.
Online dating is …
“Like most Beta game”
Indeed, online dating IS beta game at its worst. Women are in charge and you get to prove yourself to them. They get to choose and you get to beg. The rules are 1,000% stacked in their favor.
Wow, I don’t think I fully understood my revulsion to online dating until I read that. That’s precisely correct and perfectly illustrates the problem, imho.
It goes in cycles. The fact that doctors are now in high demand has a lot to do with certain, shall we say, bloatware-laws that were passed by our current administration. Another major financial shock and we become something like Greece where laws like that are unaffordable.
Always have a trade, or know enough to be a plumber, welder, or machinist.
@ Nathan Drs and Lawyers have a lot in common with the Firemen/Police dichotomy. Lawyers and Cops (and soldiers, same thing) are forced to deal with shitty people on their turf day in and day out with the psychologically damaging expectation of ultimate badassery (and fishbowl constant scrutiny) as well as some superhuman capacity to emotionally manage their reality. As a coping mechanism they like to get drunk, blustery and often suicidey. Dr’s and Firemen get the benefit of what I call “purity of purpose”. You get to select how much of an asshole you want to be and the… Read more »
For geriatrics I’d say this cycle is going to last for another 30-40 years as the Baby Boomers move through the system. I can’t think of a better time to be in geriatric medicine.
“Always have a trade, or know enough to be a plumber, welder, or machinist.”
“with the psychologically damaging expectation of ultimate badassery (and fishbowl constant scrutiny) as well as some superhuman capacity to emotionally manage their reality. As a coping mechanism they like to get drunk, blustery and often suicidey.”
You can see this at any fire station
“You get to authentically choose your contribution and internalize it.”
Quick! How many lawyer jokes can you think of?
Quick! How many doctor jokes can you think of? (I’ll wait…)
Most lawyers drive to work in a Camry to work for the partners that drive to work in a Mercedes.
Only 22% of lawyers are self-employed.
Almost 70% of GP’s are self-employed.
I knew there was a shining optimist somewhere on TRM. 🙂
The rewards of performance and performance itself should never be sacrificed to gain access to a woman’s intimacy. We are conditioned to believe that “hard work”, honesty, integrity, generosity, provisioning, etc. alone will earn respect and make us attractive. This conditioning is a very effective sales tactic of the FI. It is just like the used car salesman or sleazy financial planner who takes your money with false promise of value reciprocated. You receive reward based on effort in life but it is unwise to waste that effort. Probably the most important aspect of all this is to maximize your… Read more »
Your prince post is frankly your most humorous (I’d love to hear people disagree with me on that). But I’m not certain how it applies, help me out.
My dog only loves me for the puppy chow I bring home.
Pfffft, hahaha. I’m not exactly being Pollyanna here; I’m just looking at trends and incentives.
@Sun Wukong May 19th, 2015 at 10:34 am On advice to @Nathan doctor in training: Sun … we are sure a lot alike dude, but I have the degree: BSCS. I’m in the exact same boat; same career; same mindset towards money. Dang. And yes the advice Sun gives is spot on. With one caveat. DO NOT BELIEVE THE LIES THAT A PRENUPT CAN PROTECT YOU IN DIVORCE. Having a prenuptial agreement is like a red flag to the corrupt lawyers and judges in Family Court. It is a license to RAPE A MAN. You have a prenupt for only… Read more »
Sorry for all that shouting. I was and still am pissed and its been years.
And people need to learn this and learn it well.
Prenupts mean nothing. You’ve been lied to.
Wouldn’t part of building a world for her to live in include having assets that are hidden from her? What fun is it to live in a world where all the gold known to exist has already been discovered? Prenups are a failure because they’re an attempt at using the rules of the FI to prevent the feminine from getting what it wants. That’s like trying to use the rules of monopoly to prevent the player who is the banker from swiping a few extra bills. Hide assets, hide savings. She doesn’t need to know what you’re truly worth, and… Read more »
728 comments and running from “the-dangers-of-the-red-pill”. That must be your record right Rollo ?.
I am still on them, I hate to miss good comments but this is starting to be burdensome hehe.
Thanks Glenn for your words, watch out for those mountain lions, sounds like a great place.
@Not born this morning “The rewards of performance and performance itself should never be sacrificed to gain access to a woman’s intimacy. We are conditioned to believe that “hard work”, honesty, integrity, generosity, provisioning, etc. alone will earn respect and make us attractive. ” This is so damn hard for me to internalize. But when you see it for whatever reason it shines on its own. I think of literally buildin a rocket ship for some reason. When you bring up vulnerability this is evident as well. The more vulnerable I was the more people would be pissed off at… Read more »
The prince post makes my day Rollo. Too Funny!
[I’m putting my previous thread’s response here, as it is just as relevant, and it saves folks from doubling-back. You have to have a frame to maintain it. A strong frame, an “attractive to women” one, can’t be faked. I have a gal here in my kingdom who is along for the ride: her name’s not on the deed. Mine is. “…or the highway” No “fairness” about it.] [My “beef” with the expression “MGTOW” is the context. Most see it as women-based, where the reality is more “MAN-based true-to-one’s-self” motivation… women are just around and have little to do with… Read more »
“And, the better shave job and the meditation of the ritual is priceless.”
That’s the one part of the red that gets me smiling.
Being able to cut your facial hair without spending money. I use to bleed a lot an have cuts all over before I got it remotely rigth.
I hang out in nature even as I type this I am at the gym.
Getting ready for a run.
Just for the record, Jeremy, I would like to be thought of as a shining optimist on TRM. I don’t think I have complained much. @Nathan I’ve been there and done that. Not all professions are equal in what you have to bring to table. I would highly recommend being a physician. But only if you commit yourself to being the best you can possibly be. And only if can accomplish being excellent. Problem is that until you get well through fellowships. (And realize medical school and residence is one shit test after another in one or three week increments… Read more »
” . . . mug, soap, proper brush . . .” These were invented by a barber for marketing purposes, to give himself something that appeared to distinguish himself from other barbers. Once other barbers followed suit to even the field, they became viewed as intrinsic to the process. They can be replaced by a bit of baby shampoo on your palm. “Lather” is not necessary at all, only lubrication, which is primarily for the benefit of the blade, not your face. Just a bit of return red pill for you. I disagree with some of your specifics, but not… Read more »
If ‘X’ equals satisfaction in one’s life and satisfaction equals value, solve for ‘X’
Answer: X = any activity that brings satisfaction to an individual man.
So if lifting brings a man satisfaction, then lifting has value.
“Three months into the residency I met my current wife (27 years ago). She was hot and she’s an excellent person.”
….for you. In that moment. It’s important not to lose sight of relative value vs. absolute value when we discuss such things.
Its also why I scratch my head at the concept of optimism, pessimism, positives and negatives. No such equation exists inside of human behavior. Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting.
Change the behavior, and you control the system.
“Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting.
Change the behavior, and you control the system.”
That’s a wonderful thing to contemplate. Thank you
kfg: Ok, “any soap that has high glycerine” will suffice FAR better than any canned shave cream as they contain alcohol, a skin irritant, it’s true. Though, the post was long enough, no need to get into the science. Folks would come to that as they did their own research, if it even appealed to them. CaveClown: Bru, lifting has value, sure, I get that. What you are lifting, to what ends, may not. That is the point you are missing by trying to validate your need to go to a gym. Going to the gym is great, if you… Read more »
Guys aren’t building better jack-shit anything because they are busy in the gym trying to win high score at muscles to impress the girlies.
“So if lifting brings a man satisfaction, then lifting has value.” The problem that Vulpine is trying bring thought to, is that it reverses the arrow of causality, making the tool the goal. As per my maxim that doing work to burn calories makes as much sense as driving a car to burn gas. We do not do work in order to use energy, we use energy in order to do work. And building a rock wall not only gives you the temporary satisfaction of working, it also gives you the lasting satisfaction of having built a rock wall. A… Read more »
My mistresses would agree with morality being a limiting social construct. Of course, they would never admit it though.
Funny, kfg, I was just thinking of the wood pile and “I did that.” as compared to a weight bench sitting there and thinking “I did that?”
*cue twilight zone theme*
PUA plate man of the year?
I remember bookmarking that video embedded in Bachelor Nation and not following up on watching the whole thing. I just watched (re-watched?) it entirely and it honestly feels eye-opening watching it. Listening to what those black american women say from the perspective that I have now, it’s stunning how selfish they really are. They can’t see it, it is impossible for them to see it, but their entire perspective is selfish. They’re so clouded with the self their solipsism creates a fog that prevents them from even correctly perceiving the world around them. That skinnier black girl, early one, says… Read more »
Its also why I scratch my head at the concept of optimism, pessimism, positives and negatives. No such equation exists inside of human behavior. Morality and value judgements are wholly constructs of a conditioned human mind and as such are inherently limiting. All things you see are constructs of a conditioned human mind, there is no other construct for any living human being, not even you. Your denial of those, or misunderstandings of them, are also constructs of a conditioned human mind, only with a different set of programming. Reality exists outside of our minds, we internalize it through our… Read more »
There is a dude down in the Caribbean who built an island out of conch shells – like bricks – and cemented them together. Then, he built a bar on top of the island. He called it simply “Happy Island”. Google it for some pictures. He couldn’t have done all that lifting if he was busy with pushing metal disks up-and-down. Instead, he built himself a better world, not just contented himself with coping with the world. Proactive versus reactive. Lifting weights is reactive (to the lethargy of the lifestyle). Changing the lifestyle is proactive (eliminates the need to react).… Read more »
@kfg We do not do work in order to use energy, we use energy in order to do work. His mistake is to also assume uniformity of goals amongst all of us. I lift and remain healthy, because if I do not keep a good diet nor exercise actively, my genetics informs me that I will die between the ages of 50 to 55. My mother’s family does this like clockwork, and my father’s family is not much better. They get fat, dead by 55, no exceptions. Second, who cares if guys lift to be in shape? Some men have… Read more »
@ghosts of Jefferson
Taking that elective “European Philosophy 201” course for a walk eh?
No matter, the dark skull of irrelevance is grinning at you from behind the pixels on your screen. Ever knowing at your attempts to order everyone into your equalist frame.
Put a different way, there are big guys with big dicks that do what they want, and then there are the rest of ya, squirt.
“In the day of the cubicle and video games, we don’t have the outlet of hard work to keep us fit, and dietary choices matter more now than ever before just to stay as healthy and fit as an average person was in the year 1965 who didn’t have to worry about such things.”
Ahhh… gotta love the shaming. Nice touch.
*makes “right over your head” hand gesture*
*makes it again*
This article is Gold. I’ve always had a nagging feeling that there was something wrong in the seduction community. And it eventually hit me square on the head in that men are basing their entire ambitions and purpose on chasing women, getting good at game and obtaining notch counts. While it’s great to have the abundance and social freedom to navigate the dating mindfield that it is. The reality of it is, men need a higher purpose that are above women and sex. I’ve yet to meet more than 3 guys in the community who I can say are balanced… Read more »
@Onder Hassan “They all have demons to slay that they can’t seem to be rid of, which makes them do what they do.” That is very real for me. Pussy is a side product. I’ve learned to focus on myself. For some reason the Alpha mindset helps me focus more on me and Frame than on Pussy. I still think about it a lot sometime but try to change my thoughts none the less. Which fails… I have found the root causes of many of my demons here on this blog. One of which was being blamed for the misfortunes… Read more »
There’s another subtle point to be made about that video… Look at the faces of the black women from Brazil at the end of the video. Then go look at the faces of the American black women. Try to correct for fat content if you can in your mind. The facial body language of the Brazilian women is so much better there is no contest. They literally move up 1-2 points just on how pleasant an expression they maintain on their faces. Black american women look like they’re the ones from an impoverished country, just by the frustration on their… Read more »
“but It’s important”
Fixed, thanks Q
@Tilkum Big guys with big dicks do whatever they want, granted, but not because they reject values and judgement as human mental artifacts. End of the day you can’t get away from having to process the world through a human brain. Unless you’re an alien being, you are no different than any other man, no matter how much you think you’re above the fray. You’re just loading a different program, but the processor and RAM are the same. There’s no escaping it. Even your response to me about big guys with big dicks is a value statement and judgement. Value:… Read more »
Vulpine Shaming? Did I say something incorrect? Do cubicle workers and people in the much more prevalent non-physical professions not need exercise to stay healthy then? You conveniently omitted my qualifier. I guess the need to type “zoom” overwhelmed you. If I am not climbing mountains every day, or working in a factory, as a normal man in the West I must by needs partake in physical activity to stay healthy. My qualifier is that I must by needs do so, or my family’s history informs me that I get to die early. Zoom. Right over your head. Not everybody… Read more »
Well, Rollo did say in his post: “We can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a MGTOW perspective, it’s important for a Man to have a world into which a woman might enter. ” I guess us commenters proved him right, as we often do. Let me be the first to say than, that one of the biggest reasons I lift is to be more attractive to women, and specifically more attractive to women than most other… Read more »
I like sex far too much to ever let myself get out of shape, and Mrs. T has always know that’s been a benchmark for our relationship.
I enjoy a lot of health and social benefits from having been in the physical top 10% among my peers for my life, but I’m not afraid to admit that the thought of “fat sex” fills me with revulsion.
It is an incorrect assessment of shame to presume it is never medicine that you need. Medicine and poison are concepts that are only separated by the thin line of dosage.
@Cave I lift in order to get what I want from women, nothing wrong with that. Perfectly legit and honest. See a desired goal, figure out the obstacles to overcome to achieve the goal, surmount obstacles, achieve goal. I think many make the mistake of being too binary. That is “If you’re working out and want to have sex with women, then that is your only goal in life, sperge sperge sperge”. Why is that? Why not work out for one goal, improve your mind for another goal, enjoy your work because it fulfills other needs, etc? We are complex… Read more »
Thank you, Rollo, for yet another enlightening article.
I don’t believe the point of the red pill is to reject social constructs.
I believe the point is to see them for what they are, and then use them to your advantage.
“In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king” and all that.
Neo unplugs from the matrix, and then uses a program, “the construct” to reenter the matrix and further his agenda.
But if you wish to use your knowledge to move to Zion, stay out of the matrix, and build a house out of coconut shells…go for it.
GhostOfGeorgeJefferson, Before you try to re-assert the green-ness of your trees, go back and read up about the forest, Forrest. You’re seriously clowning yourself at this point. Go back, read it slower. _______ CaveClown, You’re quickly rowing GOJ’s boat. It’s understood that big muscles are attractive and whatnot. That’s not the point… _______ Moreover, in this context, in this venue, I can’t imagine anyone giving a fuck why either of you workout: it’s understood why health matters. Meanwhile, I’m done trying to enlighten you dolts, I’m going fishing. Free food is out there just waiting for me to pick it… Read more »
@Vulpine Ad hominem, which explicitly implies that you wish for us to adopt your way of thinking, all the while you are telling us not to give a fuck. Weird isn’t it? We’d have to give a fuck about your analysis to adopt it after all. The circularity, wee. You assume some kind of silly moral and intellectual superiority over a simple choice you have made. So you don’t work out. Good for you. Others do. Why the fuck do you care? Further, why should we care if you care? Because you might call us dolts? Oh noooes. Next, please… Read more »
Make sure you go to your favorite discount big-box retailer before your fishing trip, makes fishing easier when you buy all the gear to fish with.
If you still want your food to be free, you’ll probably have to steal the supplies though.
Maybe we’ll see you on youtube or liveleak, running out of a walmart with an arm full of tackle?
Catch one for me!
That’s just a bizarre conversation.
Working out is part of building yourself a man. Building yourself as a man is what you must do, it is your toil, it is what makes you. You can separate yourself from women all you want, but you’ll still be building yourself as a man. You may want to separate yourself as much as you can from the FI, that’s fine. But on what basis can ongoing self-improvement be regarded as anything other than positive?
Indeed Rollo. And I am a bit confused on how spending a bit of time in the gym every week means that I am somehow neglecting other things that bring me pleasure in life? In fact, how doesn’t working out bring me pleasure, as I seem to remember there is a very real effect of a “high” with serious athletes, a visceral and craved pleasure. What if I value that more than, for example, gluing shells on the beach together? Should I eschew the weightlifting so that I can validate somebody else’s pleasure mechanism? Makes no sense. Sex is great,… Read more »
Just back from an hour of active recovery on the bike. I would have liked to do more, as it’s the first week of full green here in the north country and I was enjoying myself immensely, but wisdom (enhanced by a twinge between the shoulder blades) prevailed. @GhostOfJefferson ” . . . as healthy and fit as an average person was in the year 1965 . . .” I remember that as about the time people discovered what rotten shape civilization had gotten them in (although the same had been discovered in the late 1800s). Just after the President’s… Read more »
@Vulpine – You sure do like to hear yourself talk, doncha? Your line of analysis can be thought of as “Luddite” or worshipping the pastoral life or ultimately as a rejection of modernity. In fact, for those of us who do work other than manual labor, the need for exercise is paramount. I know, you would re-design the world so everyone does physical labor and grows their own food and become Adonis like through the magic of your thinking. Lol. And of course, the life you believe we should all live used to be common – and men lived to… Read more »
@Rollo – This is a really great exploration of equalism (egalitarian equalism is redundant unless you can explain how it isn’t). While I will not take this thread into politics, one has to understand how the notion of “fairness” is tied to the equalism fetish. And of course, all these recent sill ideas about equality and fairness arise from leftist political and moral philosophy, starting with say Bentham and Mills in our modern world. Now our society reeks of it because people are programmed from birth to believe that something called “equality” is achievable in society. And since Rawls A… Read more »
“But the political ideas at work arise from something much more sinister in human nature than the FI as well, namely jealousy and sloth.”
One might argue that these are, themselves, features of the FI, where they are most pronounced. More an essential factor of the quilting bee than of the hunting party.