I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:
G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.
1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?
That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!
If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.
The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.
I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.
That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.
“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”
If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.
In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:
I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…
2. What is your take on the one strike rule?
You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:
– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.
I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.
Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.
The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.
This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.
They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.
If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).
- She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
Message: Insufficient interest
- Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
- Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.
The Prince with Interest
What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:
Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.
From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.
So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.
As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.
Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.
For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.
As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:
Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself
Do not accept the roles that society foists on you. Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience. Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.
Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion: Act like a King to be treated like one
The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you. For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others. By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.
In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.
Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.
Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.
When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.
Qualities of The Prince(ss)
A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.
If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.
Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.
Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.
That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.
But it’s the minimum. If a couple doesn’t want to have kids marriage (at least to me) makes no sense. Just date forever.
That’s cool too. If that’s what you want to do, I approve the message.
But marriage can have other benefits, if done right, besides offspring.
Cultivating companionship that lasts is desirable. We don’t stay young forever you know.
Oh, and btw, get your ( dominant ) sex game up. Ha!
I’m all “A game” in that regard, hehe.
Cultivating companionship that lasts is desirable. We don’t stay young forever you know.
True, but old people can date forever.
If your buddy called you up on the phone and told you he’d be your BFF if you would sign over half your assets to him you’d laugh. But somehow when a girl asks for half a guys assets to be his friend forever it makes sense.
And I should add that if you didn’t have more assets than her you wouldn’t get the offer to be “best friends forever” in the first place.
@zdr01dz That would have to be one hell of a buddy. It’s not that you give half your assets to a chick for her friendship. You should do all things for yourself, first and foremost. When you’re comfortable and established, if a woman wants to be with you and your with that program, she should step into your world. Careful, there is no true ” our world ” because always remember, the onus is upon you. It never, ever makes sense for a chick to ask for half your assets, regardless of what social convention says. I’m not saying any… Read more »
Seems like you’re talking about women in a particular phase of development/life. Younger women aren’t that asset driven. There’s a word for that… Gold-digger..Hahahaha!!!!
At an offer to be ” best friends forever ” the answer is ” No “. Say it with as little facial expression as possible, and with as deep a voice as can be mustered.
But the thing is they don’t look at it like us.
Men are looking for a companion.
Women are looking for a workhorse.
If you are a good workhorse she’ll be a good companion.
We don’t need marriage to have a great companion for life.
They need marriage to gain legal control over half the output of the workhorse.
“I hereby nominate Rollo Tomassi for canonization and sainthood for unwavering and tedious endeavors of great importance but with dense pupils.”
Hope you can be part of
@Sun wukong broadcast seems like you really got your shit in order and have all the main principles down. In regards to the red pill.
2 legit 2 squat
@zdr01dz Haha.. If you’re a good workhorse, all you will be in her eyes is a good workhorse. True, we don’t need marriage to have a great companion for life. Marriage isn’t an option for everyone. No, they don’t think like us. Rollo has a dozen posts about that very subject. But, to quote Dennis Green ” They are who we thought they were ” ( after TRP that is ) and that’s the point. We are rational and logical. They , for the most part , are the opposite. You have to want to cut through all of the… Read more »
“It’s not easy, but it can get easier.”
Hell this place is home for me.
How long have you been working on this stuff and do you have your own blog?
@Blaximus What my current wife understands is that as long as I’m happy and content, odds are that the cart will be pulled and I will share the beer with her…wait…did that make sense? How did this get to be about beer? hehe. Well you could run an experiment. Stop pulling the cart for a while and see if it impacts your wife’s behavior. BTW I’m not against marriage. I’m happily married with a family. I have been a hard worker since I was a little kid. But how that I’ve spent some time on the man-o-sphere I’m starting to… Read more »
@zdr01dz “Well you could run an experiment. Stop pulling the cart for a while and see if it impacts your wife’s behavior.” Been there done that. I work now because I enjoy it for the most part. I no longer fly all over the world though. I spent too much time in London and Hong Kong not even getting out long enough to see anything that wasn’t work related. The most I saw in either place was on the drive to and from the airports. Now the younger cats get the dubious honor. ” I’m happily married with a family.… Read more »
” . . . those girls are standing with Charlie Sheen . . .” Indeed they are. The one on the right isn’t even attractive enough for a quick take. I wouldn’t be photographed with her willingly, never mind pay her for it, and I’m rather older than Charlie. The one in the middle is a bit of a cutie, but not as attractive as my ex-wife, who an ex-boss of mine once described as “looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.” For whatever it may be worth, she also had a degree with honors from… Read more »
No blog, no Facebook, no Twatter, no Linkedin.
I’m a bit of a ghost, and I like it that way.
Whats this SunWukong thing?
@Tilikum I tip my hat to you sir. Way to be human and digital free… Maybe that’s why you have these principles down so damn well. Sun Wukong apparently has been able to get people an this blog to do something such as massive conference call. Where people can actually hear each other speak about red pill thoughts and life. Thanks by the way for bringing up Apex alpha I am learning faster how to change my mindset on dealing with my everyday human interactions. Appreciate it @Sun wukong could you reply with how this thing you set up works?… Read more »
@ Rollo One of the first concepts I read on this site was that male love was idealistic and female love was opportunistic. When I first read that I knew it was correct but it was difficult for me to work that into a practical roadmap. I’ve thought about it for a long time and I think it comes down to this. Male love is idealistic. On a practical level that means men want a companion. We want someone to talk to and spend time with. We want a friend and a lover. When we screw up or fail we… Read more »
Apex alpha (thinking about while in the room full of dancers doing zouk and kizomba) goodnight everyone… You have no control over what the other guy does. You only have control over what you do. -A J Kitt The mind is the limit. As long as the mind can envision the fact that you can do something, you can do itas long as you really believe 100 percent. -Arnold Schwarzenegger The principle is competing against yourself. It’s about self-improvement, about being better than you were the day before. -Steve Young You have to expect things of yourself before you can… Read more »
@ kfg What I brought to the table was: average height, well below average musculature, a bike (push, not motor), a decent quality acoustic guitar and the odd $50 gig. What your hypothesis needs to explain is why, to this woman, who had pick of the litter, I was the prize. If you were super handsome or had amazing game I can understand her hooking up with you. It happens every day. But marriage, I don’t have an obvious explanation. Girls don’t want a permanent anchor. When I married my wife 20 years ago I was a college dropout that… Read more »
@ zdro1dz Wow. I applaud your blind devotion and investment and part of me is thinking you were probably raised by a single mom, which is a common denominator when men can’t embrace the red pill. All I can say is “may your chains rest lightly” and hope when reality comes for you it is at least quick and thorough. To observe reality in a kind of stark and “rock bottom” way is, in my experience, the only way a man as invested in the Blue Pill as seem to be can really move past his conditioning. Churchill said “sometimes… Read more »
Best of luck, amigo.
@All – STOP FEEDING THE TROLL. Also, I’m looking forward to joining the convo next Sunday for the first real show, thanks for re-scheduling, Sun. So much good stuff here but i have to go to sleep and just can’t digest it all. I’ve also been inside of a female frame for the past 4 days and wow – women are just fucking ridiculous. Let them run anything but dinner and it’s class A clusterfuck. Been absorbing Jack Donovan’s work, The Way of Men and can see so clearly how female social circles lack the meritocracy of male social circles.… Read more »
“If you were super handsome . . .” I could play either Loius XIII or one of the 40 thieves, depending on costume and makeup. Apparently this works for some women, but not most. It certainly isn’t classically handsome, never mind super handsome. The best you could say for it is, “at least it’s masculine.” I’d make a really shitty tranny. ” . . . you convinced a smoking hot woman to be your wife . . .” I did nothing of the kind. My interests lay elsewhere. I had, at one point, rejected a direct proposition from her, I… Read more »
Let’s get the data points correct and organized.
1) Your future wife looked like a Penthouse Pet
2) She pursued you, not the other way around
3) You weren’t good looking and had little muscle mass
4) You owned a bicycle
5) You had no significant income
6) You had no potential to increase your income
7) Over the course of the marriage you didn’t increase your income to any significant degree
If I’ve got that right have you considered the fact that some of those data points may have played a part in the divorce?
” . . .have you considered the fact that some of those data points may have played a part in the divorce?” Another data point: I left her. She was 29 1/2. My rebound fling was an 18 year old who literally stopped traffic when she walked by. Walking through a shopping mall it was like she had a 20 ft. radius Cone of Suspended Animation around her and she wasn’t just drawn that way. I had to next her because, as it turns out, she was trying to monkey branch to me from a guy who a) I liked… Read more »
@ kfg Girl #1) Looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse. Girl #2) My rebound fling was an 18 year old who literally stopped traffic when she walked by. Walking through a shopping mall it was like she had a 20 ft. radius Cone of Suspended Animation around her and she wasn’t just drawn that way. Girl(s) #3) all the high school girls who are obviously attracted to me (some of them aren’t very subtle about it) What specific trait do you attribute your mad success with the Betty’s too? You wrote earlier that you don’t… Read more »
Rather more like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hTyj3OL-9CE/TREaQwW3FiI/AAAAAAAABBY/zZJQNKDF6JQ/s1600/Triumph%2Bclub%2Bracer%2B1c%2Blow.jpg Someone else with about the same musculature as myself: http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/029/617/i02/cheetah-2-120802.jpeg?1343936279 Yeah, she’s a girl. She’ll beat me in the 100m too. I’ll beat her in the 5k. “What specific trait do you attribute your mad success with the Betty’s too? ” I have the disadvantage of being on the inside looking out. It started in grade school, when even though I was sickly, frail and the smallest one in my class (not the smallest boy, the smallest one) I had the two alpha girls fighting over me, so I also have the disadvantage of not… Read more »
@Tilikum “To observe reality in a kind of stark and “rock bottom” way is, in my experience, the only way a man as invested in the Blue Pill as seem to be can really move past his conditioning. Churchill said “sometimes the only way over something is through it”, but dude, I’m not going to lie….it is going to hurt.” It’s why Wo am thankful to be here and it really does fucking hurt… Still very much have habits that are blue pill. But so far I am learning a lot of what to modify. Thank you for your input.… Read more »
“Heels themselves were invented for cavalry, to keep feet from slipping from stirrups. Women didn’t wear heels at all. Heels were made high because hight is a male signifier of dominance. Women, beginning with the nobility, adopted high heels to shrink the dominance gap accorded to hight.
They’re an early “You go gurrrrl!” thang.”
Is this for real? I swear I’ve always felt…something… about those high heels but I could never explain what it was.
@kfg they find me and get in my way. Wanted: your problem. @rugby, @tilikum @Sun wukong could you reply with how this thing you set up works? Essentially I wanted a way to create a roundtable where the guys that aren’t necessarily the big voices in the manosphere could get together and discuss what we learn here. The discussions will be recorded, edited down in to a show for distribution as a podcast aimed at newer folks in TRP community to hopefully help them with seeing that they’re not alone in their difficulties and maybe to help them solve their… Read more »
@Borfash: What’s more, the aristocratic women of the time, and the commoners with the means to adopt the fashions of the upper classes in order to feign a higher social standing than they actually had, wore their dresses at “floor sweeper” length, so the heels couldn’t even be seen. It was an invisible subterfuge. In essence a type of undergarment. The first women to wear heels on open display were of the lowest classes, who did so to advertise their sexual availability (it was their bare ankles that they were displaying, not the heels themselves). That is to say, prostitutes.… Read more »
It started in grade school, when even though I was sickly, frail and the smallest one in my class (not the smallest boy, the smallest one) I had the two alpha girls fighting over me, so I also have the disadvantage of not having learned it the hard way.
So in addition to everything else you’re sickly and small and the girls literally fight over you. Once again very impressive.
Fine sir, I enjoy your amazing “stories” of conquest. If you have anything else to say please do, otherwise you are free to leave at any time.
@ zdro1dz, I understand your focus on money and provisioning as leverage for long-term relationship game. In fact, beyond that, I understand the idea of bringing something of concrete value to the table in a relationship, especially to have leadership and long-term satisfaction. If you come from a position of strength and leadership with that value, rather than one of trying to “please” and “earn” the woman, then it can be effective for relationship management. Nevertheless, KFG does show that there is a loophole in that strategy. That loophole is usually known in the most extreme form as Pimp Game.… Read more »
Funny how men are “kidults” if they don’t man up and marry post-Epiphany phase women. Then it’s a ‘crisis of masculinity’, yet Kate Bollick gets national book deal for Spinster and lucrative lecture engagements for promoting women never get married and be happier for it. The Feminine Imperative can’t get its narrative straight. Its narrative has always been straight. The widespread and unspoken consensus in every society throughout history has been that women are innately fit for marriage. In other words, they do not and should not have to prove they are worthy of marriage. If she has a pair… Read more »
@Zdroidz – Female attraction is different than male attraction – isn’t this entire blog a testimony to that? Women find men who don’t chase them or supplicate themselves to be a challenge. At first they might find you annoying or even scoff at you, but over time, guys who are inner directed and who demonstrate high value with mastery and have social status granted to them by other men – based on their honor and courage and mastery and strength – are noticed by women. In fact, in today’s society, such men are rarer and rarer so even guys who… Read more »
@ Dr. Jeremy
I’m not entirely certain if KFGs stories of conquest are entirely based on accurate information. hehe
But I do agree that men with no concrete value or substance do score hot women. It happens every day. But these guys face an insurmountable problem. They have an amazing sales pitch and no product.
The evidence that this plan can’t work over the long run is that in lower income areas there are virtually no attractive women. Sooner or later all the attractive women marry up and out.
@Sun Wukong: “Wanted: your problem.” Yeah, I know, which is why I don’t talk about it much unless it’s on point somehow. I realize I’m the odd man out around these parts, learning how to be less attractive to women (don’t do meth and go on a murder rampage. Right. Got it). But I’ll give you an example of how it can be a real problem in a way that isn’t directly associated with women: I was working in store sales for a while, to reliably raise a small wad of starter capital, and was having a pleasant chat with… Read more »
@ Dr. Jeremy I work in sales so this experience might be relevant. At one point in my career I sold an average product. I did a great job selling it and I sold my fair share but overall the experience was painful. Many customers complained about the product and more than a few people were rude to me. I saved a few classic hate emails that I received. I never posted huge numbers no matter how hard I worked. After a year and a half I hated it and got out. I switched to a high quality product. I… Read more »
Yeah, we tend to talk less about man-to-man dynamics on this and other manosphere sites. Jack Donovan really helps fill that gap, but more discussion on the topic would be a great thing.
@ Sun Wukong
If we’re talking topics here, I’ve been thinking a lot about how being in an unreflective state – a state of pure experiencing – is such a cornerstone of game and charisma. I wouldn’t mind talking about what that is and how to get there.
@Forge – Thanks so much for recommending Jack Donovan. We are doing exactly what he describes on this forum – forming our gang. Men crave this. It’s the final piece for me, so really, I can’t thank you enough. I’ve been in an existential crisis for 27 years, uggh. But I slept well for 5 hours last night for the first time in a very long time and I didn’t smoke weed or take Unisom. Living in the hell that our society is for men, fathers, boys and all things masculine without a roadmap has been so anxiety producing. Constantly… Read more »
@ zdro1dz I don’t think you are entirely off base either. However, I also don’t think that the product is always more important than the pitch. In some instances, you can sell “invisible clothes” to the emperor for large sums of money. Whether that works or not, depends on a few variables. 1) The customer/woman has to have an intangible and emotional need to be filled, rather than a practical one. For example, if I need to get to work and my car does not run, what brand it is makes little difference. However, if I have other means of… Read more »
@Rollo – I know you get thanks all the time and that I’ve thanked you before, but truly, I’ve arrived at place that I never thought I could achieve in life. Self-actualization. I am a proud, unapologetic man possessing many skills, courage, strengths and mastery that is directed towards the various goals and projects I’m undertaking in my life. I’ve even stopped smoking pot without noticing it (was not a pothead but used it as a way to relieve anxiety and for sleep problems at times). Now? The idea of walking around addled and in a daze seems stupid and… Read more »
Thanks Glenn, I’m glad to read all of that. I have to keep coming back to comments and emails like this whenever I read Blue Pill/Purple Pill/ and sometimes MRAs criticize TRP for poisoning men with bad attitudes that don’t align with their feminine expectations.
It’s good to see real positive change in men’s lives.
Older fella here who likes dancing and is good at it. Have done a decent job over the years at removing beta non-verbal body language and injecting just enough alpha on the dance floor as women of all ages like dancing with me and often don’t mind my hands on their bodies in ways that would have surprised me in my blue pill days. I see how Heartiste’s point about being aggressive plays out here, from summoning a girl to dance with me (I don’t ask), leading her onto the floor, taking the lead and holding the frame (I never… Read more »
@ Dr. Jeremy However, more and more, social services, laws, and careers are ensuring women’s tangible needs are met – without men. So, whether the male product actually delivers a tangible benefit is increasingly of less concern than the emotional, psychological, and social value that it is perceived to have. That statement hit the bullseye. I believe it is the core problem that M/F relationships face in the modern world. Evolution favored women that were attracted to Self+1 and repulsed by Self-1. This gameplan worked perfect for 250,000 years and the result is the physically large, strong men that we… Read more »
” . . . you’re sickly . . .. ” That was then, this is now. Although the basis for my health issues is genetic, I have learned to control them entirely by means of diet and exercise and am the only man I know of my age who is on no medications whatsoever. I took a couple Tylenol for a fever about 15 years ago. ” . . . and small . . .” As already stated, I did eventually attain average height. I’m not a dwarf. My growth was stunted, but most men in my family are over… Read more »
“Agree so much with this. I tell a woman I’m a well paid software engineer, she’s instantly gonna toss me in the BB box. I just feed women bullshit these days.
“I’m a puppy phrenologist.”
“I’m a vaginal inspector.”
“I’m an international man of mystery.”
“I’m no one of consequence, you just need to know I fuck like a wild animal.”
Anything but the truth. Bitches don’t need the truth. They need my dick.”
Truer words bruv, truer words….Made my evening!
@ hoellenhund2 “Femininity has never been thought of something that has to be learned and internalized, something that has to be earned as a badge by passing various tests. It’s simply there.” Yes that brings up a two year mission from age 18 now that’s mandated in the Lds faith… It’s an amazing shit test that isn’t required for females but mandated for males… @Glenn “I realized something really profound for me this weekend. While I don’t play “good man” with the women I’m trying to fuck anymore, I absolutely play that role inside my family. Lol. Fuck them too.… Read more »
Glenn, “Female attraction is different than male attraction – isn’t this entire blog a testimony to that? Women find men who don’t chase them or supplicate themselves to be a challenge. At first they might find you annoying or even scoff at you, but over time, guys who are inner directed and who demonstrate high value with mastery and have social status granted to them by other men – based on their honor and courage and mastery and strength – are noticed by women. ” – And they say men like to chase. I never did. Oh the irony of… Read more »
May 9th, 2015 at 1:55 am
So MYG, Tony reads Heartiste and steals his ideas to make millions. Someone should let Heartiste know.
No. Both Tony and Heartiste, and RSD, and, and, and… get a lot of their stuff from David Deida’s Way of the Superior Man and his corny new age masculine-feminine “polarity work” .
Even then I doubt Roissy would recommend a man just stand there while his wife hits him as in this video
Robbin’s “relationship philosophy” is basically that husbands have to “be a man” and suck it up buttercup while placating their wives’ infantile behavior.
For those of you wondering where Roissy and the entire PUA scene is getting their new age “polarity” jargon its from David Deida, who had a PR manager some years ago who was trying to get him into the PUA seminar circuit. David’s regular clientele of upper middle class crunchy California yuppies vehemently objected to giving out this “exclusive tantric wisdom” to a bunch of dudes trying to get laid in clubs . My own parents who are in their 60s did a workshop with him 20 years ago and returned home acting like cultish brainwashed zombies.
@Rollo – A comment on the FI. I understand what you mean by it – and I completely agree that it has become so overwhelming and omnipresent and ominpotent. In fact, Jack Donovan’s work has deepened greatly my appreciation for how masculinism has been formally denigrated and decimated intellectually, personally, collectively, institutionally and culturally. My only disagreement with you is that it doesn’t get that kind of power without the radical egalitarianism and collectivism of the left (and I can prove that with all my fancy citations etc). The FI was so overwhelmingly obvious to me this weekend. My niece… Read more »
@Glenn, have you seen this post yet?
@Glenn Remember Glenn, According to a woman from Yale, the use of Game is potentially deadly to men with mental problems. So really, you’re just taking your life into your own hands by even reading what Rollo writes. Oh, and Also, Since there are anecdotes inferring that some people turned cultish from letting themselves be influenced by people from whom Roosh may or may not be using terminology, this means that Game is a cult. I’m certain most men here are familiar with the term FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt). Rollo should almost be proud that he’s raised the attention of… Read more »
@Jeremy, I’m not too concerned about it when I get a comment like this in between MYG blathering to herself:
@zdr01dz I’m gonna bet kfg ain’t full of shit at all. I’ve known enough dudes like that (and found myself going “How the bloody hell…” enough times) to know what he’s talking about is common. I think where your sales analogy falls down is that you were running in to the big difference between sales and marketing. A “higher quality” product in a lot of cases is just a case of being marketed better. Bad marketing makes pitching to the customer harder, good marketing makes it a breeze. I’d consider a man’s inner confidence and overall vibe to be his… Read more »
Glenn – “In fact, what’s really going on is that they are abandoning female values and are trying to ape masculinity but don’t have the first clue as to what it is to be masculine. They play a caricature of it, and that’s why women lead organizations are a fucking joke.”
^^^Cargo Cult Masculinity^^^
Wear the costumes, claim the status, take the names and titles and wonder why the result don’t automatically manifest. Then blame the men for not being supportive.
@Glenn & Badpainter have you guys read this?
Roissy’s, RSD’s and the entre PUA world’s masculine-feminine-polarity guru is an effeminate Jewish guy
If you think Deida is in anyway remotely an influence of Roissy, you need to go back to licking windows with your special needs friends.
@ Sun Wukong I’m gonna bet kfg ain’t full of shit at all. I’ve known enough dudes like that (and found myself going “How the bloody hell…” enough times) to know what he’s talking about is common. KFG describes himself as a chick magnet. Penthouse models, girls with 20′ cones of beauty and the chicks at a local highschool find him irresistible. Hot poon pursues him to such a degree that he can barely get anything done in life. I’m seriously considering going ghost for a couple of years just to get some shit done, because they find me and… Read more »
“If you think Deida is in anyway remotely an influence of Roissy, you need to go back to licking windows with your special needs friends.”
He started quoting directly from Deida 3-4 years ago.
I presume you have those quotes available?
I have now read your article linked above three times. I must plead guilty to being dense. Is your referencing that supposed to be informatively descriptive of the situation Glenn described or am I missing something?
Not gonna lie: I am.
hahaha, Don’t be jealous. There is a statistically significant chance that you have the highest IQ on this board. You’ve got something that everybody else wants for themselves and their children. People are jealous of you!
Nah, it’s just uncomfortable to have a deeply held paradigm directly challenged. It’s easier to disqualify than regroove. That’s why he has to recast what I’ve said into a straw man version.
For instance, I never said anything about Penthouse models. That’s his characterization. The fact of the matter is I’ve only met one actual Penthouse Pet of the Month. Tiny little thing, cute as a button and very personable. I enjoyed chatting with her. She was selling lubricants.
Ask a bunch of guys if they’d rather get laid any time they like by chicks they find attractive or be a genius. I would be firmly in the former camp, as I’d wager the vast majority of guys would.
Not saying I think it’s impossible to have both or that I’m not gonna try, just that given the choice between the two being Chad Thundercock beats being Ned Nerd any day.
Human DNA didn’t self-replicate by selecting for intelligence, it self-replicated by putting replication at the top of the priority list. Intelligence just made it easier to come out on top in the competition. Sun’s right, I’d rather have a guaranteed lifetime supply of varied pussy than be the smartest man in the world. Then again, I recently watched a fairly biased documentary about the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Over the course of the documentary they demonstrated details of the lifestyle of most of the salt-of-the-earth people whose fishing-industry jobs were impacted by the disaster… My mind was blown, I couldn’t relate,… Read more »
A short note from me: Rollo, I want to thank you sincerely for your blog and your ongoing Ideas. I took a breather from posting the last week, because in real life I took a breath, stopped to smell the blooms in early May at my home and on my hunting farm. I feel the sense of Empowerment by red pill truths and better mastery (to some extent) of married man game. Empowerment in Rollo’s terms: ” The definition of Power is not financial success, status or influence over others, but the degree to which we have control over our… Read more »
@ Sun Wukong @ Jeremy An endless supply of varied poon does sound appealing. But with a 200 IQ I could count cards in Vegas and make millions. And with those millions I could purchase an endless supply of varied poon. It’s a toss up. 😎 I’m no Mensa member. I assume from your writing that you guys are both smarter than I am. But I credit my success largely to the fact that I’m a good thinker. I had to think (and work) my way past numerous obstacles. If my IQ was 100 I’d still be delivering pizza. So… Read more »
But with a 200 IQ I could count cards in Vegas and make millions.
Well, if I really wanted to get rich off IQ alone, I’d worm my way in to high finance and steal like the rest of the bankers. You don’t need IQ to count cards. Just concentration, memory, and balls of steel to deal with the inevitable shit storm when they come down on you with a herd of roided up mafia palookas.
@ Sun Wukong
Pretend you’re from Wall Street, contact Congress and tell them you need $700 Billion within 72 hours. “If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down!”
This plan has worked before. You might actually get the money.
@zdro1ds, Your pedestalization of KFG (GRGP) is informing. You say you’re in sales and thats interesting. Did you find the ‘sphere looking for ways to improve your close or capture rate? Maybe recently start selling intangibles and failing to make your nut? Its making sense because you are so hyper-focused on tangible “product” strengths that you literally can’t even begin to be functionally aware of abstract concepts. I submit this is why you can’t quite seem to grasp that the externalizations of a “product” are merely tools of measurement for the common denominator, and not inherent value. See, girls cant… Read more »
@Rollo – Thanks for linking those posts and that comment from the guy in Brazil. But for me it’s interesting to see how women are trying to be masculine, it’s like watching the early attempts of a young boy trying to act like a man. I also think in the age of open hypergamy men’s response has to change. We may be the leading edge, @Sifrellc – Amen brother. The combo punch of Tomassi and Donovan will rock your world. And I don’t think that Donovan without Tomassi would be nearly as powerful. @All – Stop feeding the troll. Don’t… Read more »
Thanks again gentlemen, it means a lot. But I did hear that Aunt Giggles just cut her “coaching” rates in half ($75/hour) LMAO!
@ Tilikum Did you find the ‘sphere looking for ways to improve your close or capture rate? If have 11 and 13 year old sons. They are just at the age that girls are beginning to enter the picture. I went looking for info for them and instead ran across the man-o-sphere. The first site that I can remember reading was Rollo’s. The article might have been this one. Good Girls Do It was an amazing article and it completely sucked me in. It is a fascinating topic. Its making sense because you are so hyper-focused on tangible “product” strengths… Read more »
Re;Sales – Let’s take that subject a different direction. I do sales coaching for cloud startup entrepreneurs, have sold big tech to major corps my whole life and have a good track record. I also set up leadgen and sales teams for startups, and help with big deals and lighthouse client acquisition. You could say that I know a thing or two about sales… But I’m noticing that the corporate culture has changed with the rest of our culture dramatically over past few years and techniques that I once used to great effect are simply not working anymore. One of… Read more »
Guy #1 can eventually find an attractive woman who will overlook his boring personality.
Guy #2 will never be able to find an attractive woman who will overlook his lack of current and future prospects. At the very least he has to pretend he is going somewhere in the future. And he knows this.
@ Glenn Let’s say I know a few things about coaching, consulting, corp sales (and corp politics) too 😉 1. Sell women strong and give them every reason to say yes. Unshakable frame no matter how uncomfortable it gets.They hate themselves, what they leveraged for their position, and just want to feel good. LOTS of bullet pointed positives. 2. Lead with the negative (problem), close on positives (solutions). For men reverse this. 3. Foster a “you and her against the world” relationship absolutely chock full of competence. 4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second,… Read more »
@ Glenn Your sales are probably very different from mine. I’m selling $1000 to maybe $10,000 at a time. 9 out of 10 times the decision maker is a man. I put in a bid for the project and make the sale maybe 50% of the time. If the guy has to talk to his partner it’s the kiss of death. I’m not getting that sale. With my other company each sale is much smaller and almost all of my customers are women. Since it’s a small amount of money the sale is almost automatic. When my phone rings or… Read more »
With me there is no schmoozing, politics and little small talk. I show up at the job site, explain the problem and what I can do about it.
My entire sales presentation is knowing and explaining information about the problem and solution. If the job looks too dangerous I pass it on to someone with equipment that is more suited to the problem. In this way I make friends with my competitors.
It sounds boring but it gets the job done. I’m in and out in minutes and make the sale half the time.
Thanks again gentlemen, it means a lot. But I did hear that Aunt Giggles just cut her “coaching” rates in half ($75/hour) LMAO!
For one hour of her time I could buy both your books, all of Roosh’s, The Way of Men, and maybe even a copy of 48 Laws of Power on my tablet and get better results.
Glenn, I have no sales experience whatsoever, but I did cry a tear reading Aaron Cleary’s book Enjoy the Decline. Life changes and you adapt. I might preface my thoughts by saying that ever since Napster gave me free music in 1999, I turned into these females you sell to. The digital age and Napster and torrents (a women wouldn’t recognize a torrent if it hit her in the side of the head), Facebook validation, living in the suburbs and living with a blue pill husband, the Feminine imperative “winning” like a dog catching a car. I’m not ashamed these… Read more »
Sorry for the mis-spellings. The Wild Turkey Rare-Breed is a bit too good.
“4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second, fluid language. Learn to see what she is NOT doing and feed that.”
You being formless here, and a man of few words, can you expand on that second sentence with some examples?
What are examples of what she is not doing? What do you feed that lack of what she’s not doing in a sales world?
Lol, sijfrellc, it’s always kinda fun to see how your writing style changes up after a dram or two. I don’t ever call attention to it because you have good shit to say buzzed and sober both, and because I sometimes drink’n’pound keyboard myself, but it is kinda endearing.
Good to hear you got a lot out of Jack Donovan! It strikes me that it’s more a masculine tribe you lack than female attention, which is why I emphasized that. In all fairness, tho, sijfrellc had at least as much to do with recommending it, haha.
“You being formless here, and a man of few words, can you expand on that second sentence with some examples?”
Let me second the sentiment, Tillikum, that you tend to use so few words that it’s hard to learn from you. I admire your commentary here, but don’t always know how I might apply it.
I like to think I’m a pretty cool guy overall, but like a lot of men here I can be a bit remedial regarding unrepentant, unbound masculinity lol.
A few years ago when I came across Roissy veering into Masculine-Feminine Polarity territory ala Deida I called him out on it in the comments. He used Deida’s examples of the storm and the mountain and other of his yada yada. Deida’s not entirely wrong and the women certainly do lap him and his expressive movements up during his “intensives”. But damn if he ain’t physically unattractive, corny and “really in touch with his feminine side”. I guess those types of wealthy new age women love that stuff.
“The combo punch of Tomassi and Donovan will rock your world. And I don’t think that Donovan without Tomassi would be nearly as powerful.” Both connect dots. It is not hard to understand the nature of a man being good at being a man rather that a good blue pill man. But god forgive me and you, no one ever told me this shit since 1979, the day the FI took over. So, Donovan tells the man what his true nature is and how the FI strips all of his masculine traits from him in order to make women safe… Read more »
Keep the single-malt action rolling. You’re on fire tonight–in the good way.
@zdroids Your sales analogy falls apart because you fundamentally don’t understand what the customer values. That’s why no one can get it through your head. We are trying to tell you that the girls don’t care about how many slices of bread the toaster you’re selling can cook at a time or how the timer automatically detects when the bread is done, and you’re sitting there going “I don’t get it, if they want to buy a toaster it’s because they want to make as much perfectly browned toast as possible! Guys, listen, they want to make lots of toasted… Read more »
This just in.
Adult Friend Finder about to be delisted from market
Interestingly the article included a gratuitous picture of one of my plates. We’ll be in touch Emily!
@ Forge “Lol, sijfrellc, it’s always kinda fun to see how your writing style changes up after a dram or two. I don’t ever call attention to it because you have good shit to say buzzed and sober both, and because I sometimes drink’n’pound keyboard myself, but it is kinda endearing” You have insight. It’s true what you say. I have control. But I don’t hesitate to Roam. Your insight is accurate that I have imbibed a bit too much in the last six months and posted comments here when drinking that may or may not have made sense. But… Read more »
From Roissy: “IX. Connect with her emotions Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendezvous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no… Read more »
Another great read Rollo, as always thanks for this space and all you do to help bring men into the light. Much of my cultural frame of reference is from American flyover country, so I can really identify with the earlier comments re the husband as draft horse, a very approachable idea for those of us who are already ‘hitched.’ By itself, this realization probably wouldn’t have driven me to seek the answers I’ve found here in the sphere- countless men have been OK with a life of husbandly toil. To continue the analogy: the angst that brought me here… Read more »
” If we collected enough data from hundreds of thousands of dudes’ combined reference experiences and comparing notes and found that girls liked guys with black hair more than blonde hair” Some evo studies say just that. Anyway my issues with Deida began 20 years ago when my parents did an “intensive” with him. He’s not a traditionalist. Most of the people who take his seminars are divorced and will divorce again. Many are into polyamory, which I am too but I don’t have kids and they do. He speaks nothing of life long commitment. Nothing about how mom’s “playing… Read more »
@ YaReally Your sales analogy falls apart because you fundamentally don’t understand what the customer values. I know exactly what women want. Women want a man of abundance. They want the real thing, not a phony imitation. By using game a well practiced PUA can trick a girl’s subconscious into believing he’s the man even when he’s not. It’s the reason that guys play the “amazing future” card. “I’m going to start a company” “I’m going to apply to Med School” “I’m going to make a million bucks by the time I’m 30” And it’s just a bullshit delaying tactic… Read more »
@YaReally You gotta’ go out and pound the pavement and give your brain “proof not promises”. Haha, point taken man. Lately I have been incredibly busy getting ready for my move middle of next month (selling shit, finding an apartment, dealing with all the details, etc), working out, and trying to keep a hard pace at work by experimenting in my home lab. As soon as I move and that big time suck is out of my way, I’ll be hard at the proof. That being said, my therapist recently gave the advice that even while I’m busy, try to… Read more »
Tyler on looks:
Tyler on money:
Some of Tyler’s VAST credentials:
Look at this sexy 5’7″ balding ginger Adonis:
srsly, go pirate The Blueprint, Tyler encourages it.
MYG, YGBSM. STFU.I want to puke what you referenced. Please stop your childish trolling of a site you have no conviction in whose message is important to others. You cannot fathom that Deida is a fag and Donovan is not. It is on you to distinguish the difference and explain the simple difference. OR stop commenting on a red pill blog with game frame. What is your goal in commenting? Which you are not accomplishing? When have you had one of of your assertions agreed with? Why bother appearing like a douchebag to no end. Why? I have rarely seen… Read more »
BTW I’m not saying you don’t need game. You do. But some guys write from the point of view that all they need is game and building a better product is for suckers. Good luck with that plan in any area of life.
@zdroidz “Women want a man of abundance.” You’re looking at the surface level again, just like I tried to get through to you before. They want a man who gives them an emotional rollercoaster of ups and downs. A man with abundance GIVES them that emotional rollercoaster because he’s naturally running dread game by having options besides her, so she gets to worry that he’ll leave her and be happy when he doesn’t. It’s the same reason chicks love Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey and Soap Operas and gossip mags and Jezebel, they love the emotional ups and downs… Read more »
LOL @ Julien’s video. “You are awesome, you are funny, you amuse me and you’re a great kisser!!!”
That wasn’t scripted at all. Totally organic.
He looks and acts like a flighty teenager. Flaling arms. No center of gravity. Completely unmasculine. Not thorough.
“Pimp, my ass”.
Ross Jeffries is at least a grown ass masculine man. Forget these little boys and check out his stuff. Or Nasheed.
@zdroidz “But some guys write from the point of view that all they need is game and building a better product is for suckers.” Who? Quote them. Who in the PUA community, Manosphere, or TRP community is telling guys not to build a better product WHILE learning game? Point em out, let’s see it. Since it’s so abundant that you’ve wasted everyone’s time for 4 pages of nonsense it should be easy to find a bunch of quotes. Of the top of my head I can link you multiple videos of guys in each of those communities stressing that men… Read more »
You earn $100,000 and you have a 150 IQ.
If I was you I’d approach every girl with the idea that I was better. Because from an objective standpoint you ARE better.
@zdroidz See what you don’t get is that what you do HURTS men. Your ignorance you blather on about fucks up guys’ lives because they come check these communities out looking for answers but don’t know who to believe yet and you sound really super adamant in what you’re saying and it really jives with their current fucked up socially conditioned world view that hasn’t gotten them fuck all in life, so they latch onto your bullshit because it’s the nice comfortable safe easy explanation. Then they can go back to their shitty lives and never look deeper into this… Read more »
@ YaReally Hey dummy, Reading Is Fundamental. If you want more comments go back and find them yourself. They’re scattered through the comment section. The “I’m a fat loser” but I’m regularly pursued by hot models myth is tiring. And by the way let me apologize to KFG for this. Previous to this I was off him. KFG The one in the middle is a bit of a cutie, but not as attractive as my ex-wife, who an ex-boss of mine once described as “looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.” For whatever it may be… Read more »
@MYG “LOL @ Julien’s video. “You are awesome, you are funny, you amuse me and you’re a great kisser!!!” That wasn’t scripted at all. Totally organic” Skip to a minute earlier where he’s creating investment by pretending to walk away and tells her to tell him why she likes him then rewards her for doing so. This is basic human psychology. All you’re doing is proving the people who are suspicious about you right. “He looks and acts like a flighty teenager. Flaling arms. No center of gravity. Completely unmasculine. Not thorough.” More credentials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMecikWL1qQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWrFgIR6CU Here, I’ll even give… Read more »
You have a hard time with reading comprehension. I’m pro game.
Go back and reread the thread where I pointed out that Benjy Bronk from the Stern show is nuclear Alpha and scores amazing chicks because of his A game.
Yeah, this guy.
@zdroidz “The “I’m a fat loser” but I’m regularly pursued by hot models myth is tiring.” Well shit, if you didn’t believe him then you definitely won’t believe my stories lol But that’s alright, it’s a lot easier to keep that bubble on. Just take it over to Hooking Up Smart or Jezebel where you’ll find plenty of people to agree with you and confirm your armchair theory, we discuss real world experience here. And do your sons a favor: buy them Rollo’s books so they don’t have to learn from you. I’ve rolled with guys who are as good-looking… Read more »