The Script

script

There is a certain formula most romantic comedies rely on to convey how relations between men and women ought to go. It’s an old formula, as in Shakespeare and Greek antiquity old. It goes something like this:

An avowed Alpha bachelor for life questions the existence and nature of love, the sincerity of women, the illogic of not living just for his own self-importance, certainly the institution of marriage and lives, according to his rules, a satisfying life. He rationally observes the “madness” of his friends and fellow men when they fall in love, and out of it. He either mocks their foolishness or is analytical to the core in understanding their madnesses. He is an elemental force of one – a captain controlling the course of his own ship. He’s not wrong in his estimations; they all add up, they all make deductive, provable sense.

That is until he meets her. The ONE special woman who miraculously, alone amongst billions, has the unique power to bring the facade of all that he thinks he is into stark, insightful self-realization. He’s bit by the bug, smitten by the only woman who could fatefully tame the arrogance of his otherwise cruel rationalism. It’s akin to a religious conversion; he’s seen the light, he’s in love and all of his former concerns are proven to be falsehoods – it’s the triumph of true love! The one thing he was missing (the one thing only a woman can possess of course), the last piece to a puzzle he didn’t know he was  putting together, has been added and now he is complete. And they live happily ever after,…

Every writer from Shakespeare to Bronte, to modern writers, use some variation of this outline. The locations, time periods and actors change, but the basic story doesn’t. If you need a contemporary example watch Gerard Butler (King Leonidas, 300) in The Ugly Truth. The reason this formula is so successful and timeless is because it is essentially the fantasy of love and emotionalism trumping logic and reason. Women naturally love this because it puts them into the position of being the ‘cure’ to a man’s illness while making him look like a brooding, sulking, bitter child for clinging so tenaciously to his rationalism, when all he was really pouting about was feeling unloved.

All his intense powers of rationality, all of his implicitly provable facts, all of his monuments and achievements of deduction mean nothing without the only irrational thing a woman can uniquely supply – unknowable, fantastical love. It’s part and parcel of the Myth of the Feminine Mystique which makes women the gatekeepers of the knowledge of love; don’t try to understand it with your silly boy-logic, just leave well enough alone and be eternally grateful to whichever god you worship that a woman has favored you with the love you need to be perfected.

In this story, the build-up to men realizing this is what stokes the feminine indignation that sustains women’s interest, but the real satisfaction is summed up at the end when he finally concedes to the feminine imperative and drops all his pretense and submits to love.

The satisfaction doesn’t last long though, because it was the build-up, the tension, the anxiety, the want of a woman to scream at the TV, “SHE LOVES YOU!! JUST GET IT YOU STUPID MAN!!” that was making it at all interesting. Once he’s submitted and seen her light, all of that fades away to predictable, boring comfort. She’s done with that romance novel, puts it in the pile of them at the garage sale, and moves on to the next. And he’s left with all the echoes of his past rationalism, and explaining to all those he’s influenced and built his reputation upon, how love conquers all and how wrong he was all along.

For that man, it’s the last chapter in the vindication of feminine primacy.

And they lived happily ever after,..

For women, the only thing better than experiencing this script vicariously through movies and stories is to see it happen live. David D’Angelo, Tucker Max are a few manosphere notable who’ve played the come-full-circle surrender to the script. There are far more guys who play it in a more visual sense (the repentant ‘Womanizer’ episodes on the Tyra Banks show comes to mind), but no one really remembers them, and certainly not in the ‘sphere. While there’s a sense of vindication for women to have a guy surrender his anti-social (i.e. anti-feminine primary) lifestyle and beliefs in favor of a feminine paradigm, and “settle down” into a feminine framed, normalized monogamy, surrender is still surrender. Essentially the strong vibrant man who posed such a challenge to her, the one who’s steadfast determination and conviction made him a man she was hot for as well as one she could respect, loses his status.

He’ll say, hey, you don’t know where I’m at in life, you don’t know the experiences I’ve had, life has taught me the value of compromise. Women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices a man must make to facilitate a feminine reality, but if there’s one thing women outright despise, one thing men foolishly believe women should be able to appreciate, it’s a man willing to compromise the beliefs he’s established his reputation and integrity upon in order to facilitate her feminine reality. That’s the definition of a sell-out.

After the happily ever after comes the living. He can console himself in his new paradigm, he can hole up in a cocoon of domestication and simply not answer the phone calls of all his old friends who are also playing into the script, who are really only waiting to commiserate with him, but his new domesticity compromise wont allow him to. His old life is gone right? Love conquered him, made him a new man, ready to live up to the new, correct, feminine expectations he formerly railed against, but has been enlightened to and now calls his new masculine purpose. He’s been converted.

He looks into that girl’s eyes, the one who changed him for the better, but the memory of the urgency, the desire to tame him, the adrenaline he inspired all seem like an old song that reminds her of that thrill.

 

I would never wish ill on my fellow man, no matter his crimes, no matter his station, so I wont do so now. I sincerely hope nothing but the best for any man making this surrender, he will need every good fortune that comes along in the face of compromising his reputation and purpose in order to facilitate a woman’s primacy.

However, I’ll add that I also make it my policy never to speak ill of the dead.


142 responses to “The Script

  • nick42983Nick

    If anything, the Mark Minter episode should be a strong reminder of the strength of the feminine imperative and that even those adamantly opposed to it (or at least appearing to be) aren’t immune. Constant vigilance is required. Thanks for reminding us Rollo.

  • hansolo007

    Speaking of a script. A woman about to get a divorce posted a list of 20 pieces of advice a recently divorced man wished he’d received. I’ll just list a few but the vast majority of them were total blue-pill, femperative type things where the man has to do everything to please her. No wonder he got divorced and I feel sorry for the guy with his future experiences with women if this is the way he tries to attract women.

    4) ALWAYS SEE THE BEST in her. Focus only on what you love. What you focus on will expand. If you focus on what bugs you, all you will see is reasons to be bugged. If you focus on what you love, you can’t help but be consumed by love. Focus to the point where you can no longer see anything but love, and you know without a doubt that you are the luckiest man on earth to be have this woman as your wife.

    5) IT’S NOT YOUR JOB TO CHANGE OR FIX HER… your job is to love her as she is with no expectation of her ever changing. And if she changes, love what she becomes, whether it’s what you wanted or not.

    6) TAKE FULL ACCOUNTABILITY for your own emotions: It’s not your wife’s job to make you happy, and she CAN’T make you sad. You are responsible for finding your own happiness, and through that your joy will spill over into your relationship and your love.

    7) NEVER BLAME your wife If YOU get frustrated or angry at her, it is only because it is triggering something inside of YOU. They are YOUR emotions, and your responsibility. When you feel those feelings take time to get present and to look within and understand what it is inside of YOU that is asking to be healed. You were attracted to this woman because she was the person best suited to trigger all of your childhood wounds in the most painful way so that you could heal them… when you heal yourself, you will no longer be triggered by her, and you will wonder why you ever were.

  • HanSolo

    The poor guy concludes with the following:

    “But these are lessons I am learning and committed in carrying forward. Truth is, I LOVED being married, and in time, I will get married again, and when I do, I will build it with a foundation that will endure any storm and any amount of time.”

    Sounds like he’ll be headed for divorce #2 within a few years of 2nd marriage.

  • mongolking

    two things:

    1) men are more susceptible to dementia the older they get.

    2) the real always plays second fiddle to the fantastic when entertaining (which would have factored huge in Shakespeare’s marketing plans)

    Also note another cardinal rule when slipping marriage into a story-line: always, always cut away after the wedding. It’s a great way to frame the last chapter, but try at your peril to bring it on any earlier.

    For some reason, few great novels will dare go into life after the wedding. Tolstoy did in War and Peace, and Galsworthy couldn’t avoid it in his story of generations (The Forsyte Saga), but neither could do better than report sorrow, disappointment and tragedy.

  • TrickyDicky

    This scenario is exactly how I found the manosphere. I fell into the trap and really did believe it. Only then to realise it was not appreciated, only expected, then taken for granted, then dumped. And all because of my naivety and subscribing to the female imperative due to 27 years of conditioning.

    ‘This is what women want’ – media cry. It’s a fallacy. I’m glad I discovered your site. It has allowed me to answer all those questions and I can see clearly everywhere I went wrong.

    It’s all about the mindset. I’ve taken the red pill and damn does it feel good. Thank you Rollo

  • Apollo

    This is something Ive noticed as well.. Pretty much every romantic movie made follows this general script. Whats interesting though is when they continue the story beyond the part where the guy submits.

    If youve ever seen the show Cougar Town (count yourself lucky if not), theres a male, just divorced character in season 1 who runs a bar and has meaningless relationship free sex with lots of hot, younger 20 somethings. The not so subtle subtext of him being an irresponsible, broken man is of course ever present. Then, he of course realises the error of his ways and starts a relationship with his mid forties divorced single mother neighbor (Courtney Cox). Now, the strong subtext is that all is right with the world!

    I dont know if they intended it to be seen this way though, but the most memorable thing for me about this was that before he got exclusive with the single mom he seemed happy, free and was getting laid like tile by many hot babes. Afterwards though, he seems whipped, broken and miserable and has to beg, barter and scrape for every bit of sexual attention he gets from his rapidly aging partner. This was portrayed as “normal” and “how it should be” within the show, and I really got the impression that the shows writers saw nothing wrong with it, but to me it came across as an utterly miserable existence.

  • rmaxgenactivepua

    All men should avoid the marriage, divorce grinder

    Even Mark Minter in his dothering old age, should avoid that shit at all costs

    All marriage does is spit out poisoned men, a poisoned society

  • derthal

    OT
    Is it everything totally fucked up? Are there any boundaries for solipsism?
    http://www.naturalnews.com/041398_post-birth_abortion_infanticide_Melissa_Harris-Perry.html

  • Matthew King

    As usual, Rollo has misread the entire situation in his knee-jerk impulse to fit all things into his narrow philosophy.

    Granted, this is his instantaneous reaction to what he feels is betrayal, and in time the self-aware man grows embarrassed at his precipitate contributions to scandal. So it’s not the final word, but a man should know when to lash out and when to take a deep breath and assess; especially when the mob is chanting outside a man’s door.

    What’s especially rich is that it is precisely people like Rollo who regard people like Mark Minter as godlike, and hell hath no fury than a cult-worshiper scorned. My criticism of Minter in these very spaces was subjected to the same howling contempt that they subject to Minter himself now. Even when the progression of his life was obvious, and this development should have taken no one by surprise.

    It’s as simple as this. Modern feminist marriage is indeed a scam. It did indeed play havoc in Minter’s life. The man simply reported on his condition from the inside, and he did it in such a way that groupies like Rollo fantasized him to be something larger than he was, thereby encouraging him to inflate to unsustainable proportions.

    Just as it was too neat and too perfect for Minter to condemn marriage per se (when his real aim was against what marriage has become), it is entirely too neat for Rollo and other instant haters to condemn Minter for attempting to turn the institution around, risking personally to right the ship.

    But here on your blogger soap boxes, you like your categories precise and condemnations swift. In all your wordiness and condign judgment, you cannot process complexity. You can only squeeze real circumstances and real human beings into cubby holes perforce, and when they don’t fit, you pound on them with a mallet, ecstatically.

    This is Girard’s scapegoat drama yet again. Those who play the roles don’t know what they’re playing. That’s fine: it was ever thus, and who can expect plodders to even be conscious of what controls them, much less to transcend the machinery. But to imagine you are building a philosophy or even a practicum is risible. You are unconsciously repeating platitudes according to the real script, the one you’ve been trained to recite from memory, the one you’ve been told is evidence of your own independently generated wisdom.

    Mark and Kate are fools doing the best they can with the resources available. They are not bit players in your philosophodrama. You are the actors getting fed canned lines. Minter was too, right up until this weekend. I call this his liberation from your ghetto.

    Matt

  • walawala

    Here’s my latest experience with the girl I’d been banging for 7 months.

    She has a melt-down of some sort blaming it on the fact I’m “too stubborn” which I realize is beta bait to be more attentive. I flip the script. I disappear.

    We get into it and she breaks up with. Comes over, grabs her make up leaves.

    Then a few days later sends me a bland birthday greeting. I ignore. She posts on my FB. I don’t “like” it.

    She texts me before a party she knew I was going to on some pretext that I left a “sock” in her stuff. “Make a puppet out of it” I reply.

    I go to the party, game other chicks. Now realize what’s happening: this ploy to get me to be a beta schlub has backfired, the break-up, the other stuff…and I’m gaming other girls.

    I go to the washroom, she leaves the same time, then confronts me, starts balling her eyes out.

    I react with amused mastery….”You’re hurt? Awww, didn’t you just end things and grab all your stuff back?”

    I take her home….dump an anger fuck into her.

    She confesses…. “Why didn’t you chase me?”

    I don’t chase.

    Then the best part:

    “How many girls did you fuck while we were apart?”

    ME: What matters is who I’m going to fuck next.

    This is not a scene from Casablanca.

    Even Don Draper has his beta moments in Season 6 but her quickly realizes it gets his shit together and ploughs on…

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Matt, I can hardly wait to read your convenient prose when either of the Minters come back to the manosphere for advice on marital problems. What songs will you write when they realize the buffer of the Internet and an LDR are a piss poor foundation for a marriage?

    Yeah, I expect it will be the godless feminists fault then too.

  • Case

    “I’ll add that I also make it my policy never to speak ill of the dead”

    Ouch

    Yeah. …as it were Rollo at many times I have been as if a medium channeling your ghost and as often as that is I have noticed either men treating me with anger such as the anger a fellow feels when told his hard worked upon barbecue tastes like ass or tgeir girlfriends have taken to rssponding to me like an enemy mole in the ranks, not knowing exactly what the poisin is I’m spreading but onky knowing it does nothing to move forward the progress of morale.

    All along, neither the man nor his girlfriend seem able to rightky estimate that they are both, demonstrably, unhappier, with each successive loss of the man’s agency. The onky salve for this unhappiness? More loss of his agency.

  • Case

    Sorry the typos
    Smartphone keyboard

  • itsme

    when is the lifetime original movie airing?

  • Case

    I have somehow failed to read in the where Rollo, a married man with children, has criticized marriage, per se.
    The only per se criticism contained seems articulate to the point of cold large wet fish thwacked across the reader’s face: there is a trope, known since the days of Homer … some special ONE woman’s femininity triumphs over the rationality of a man, replacing his agency with hers, as primacy … happiness results. This trope, and the poison it is to relations between the genders and to marriage itself, is unknown to the erstwhile but we assume well-read commenter?

  • itsme

    *slow clap*

    i think ‘pop pop’ is more fitting

  • avd

    Hi-fucking-larious! Laughed my ass off reading this one. Points.

  • Marky Mark

    It’s funny but a guy who is so anti-marriage like Minter is obviously a VERY emotional person, you can tell that he pours himself in all of his posts. It’s the guys who think “ya marriage probably isn’t a good idea” but don’t really care THAT much who most likely stay single, simply because they are unemotional and won’t bond with a woman.

  • Case

    My own theory borne and bred of the reading at RM here is that the Feminine Imperative is an emergent property, rising from the sum total mass behaviors of the social organism, based on the individual unconscious behaviors of its participants, specifically with respect to women’s inherited behaviors for preserving and passing on their X chromosomes.
    To go with that, and to employ a bit of analogy from the Lord of the Rings … what we could say is going on with the Feminine Imperative when it seeks out a strong, rational, high-agency man … is first of all that it is seeking a fit man, and then when it seeks to bend him to its will and break him, it is exposing that ***at a genetic level***, the chromosomes do not believe in love.
    In other words … a woman’s gene’s do not believe a man will love her, or otherwise they do not take it to be a safe bet that she should …

    this is for you Matt …

    her unconscious, pre-cognitive, non-agency, programmed genes … do not TRUST him to love her, so she does not submit to trust. She does not allow for love, or herself, love.

    It would be like the ant-like, unconscious Orc creatures from the Lord of the Rings who know nothing but to break and enslave men. They act on an unconscious imperative for self-preservation.

    Compare that to the conscious elf (think Arwen/Aragon here) – she freely chooses to submit in trust to the love of a man, going against her programming, she uses her own agency, … conscious and cognitive, unprogrammed, to act in trust that by way of his agency, he will do right by her, without submitting to her judgment.

    Understanding that women cannot love men as so many men wish and want women to love them (which seems to be like the way they want Jesus to love them, thereby making the woman some deified creature she is not, and doing her no favor in the process), even we cynics here at RM could probably be brought around to saying that a woman trusting to a man’s agency her faith, this is the closing thing possible to us small and breakable human’s, as love.

  • Immediate

    Minter failed a giant shit test and failed it in spectacular fashion. Its really as simple as that right?

    About the only way I could see this turned around in his favor is if her family really is loaded as speculated. If he got all those back taxes and child support paid off and then bounced on her free and clear it would be hilarious.

  • Leo G

    In Eastern mysticism, the point is to re-unite the 2 basic energies, ying/yang, female/male, etc. Our need to join with women or vice-versa, is just this. It is the physical aspect of the spiritual journey.

    There are those who have become realized through the path of love. But most just lose their way in the physical realm, and suffer til the day they die.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Matt King is the Hillsboro Baptist Church of the manosphere. Soldier’s funerals, weddings, no matter the occasion, there he is with the signs, only instead of God Hates Fags, they read God Hates Rollo, Roosh and Roissy.

    No questions, no discussion, only convenient piety and admonishment.

  • avd

    @Case

    GBFM, if he hasn’t already, should really add LOTR to his reading list—the book, not the movies (though the movies are pretty dope also). Tolkein wasn’t fucking around when he wrote that. That story is THICK with western spiritual values… the values that have held our culture together over the millennia. He wrote that what, fifty years ago? And look how culture has played out since then. That book is so politically incorrect in today’s environment, that it’s a wonder that the films were allowed to be made. And yet, they are some of the most popular films of all time—internationally. That speaks volumes to the inner light of human beings which has not been completely snuffed out just yet.

  • avd

    I’m not going to wade into the debate between Rollo and Matt. I will, however, say this: I respect Rollo for permitting dissenting opinions on his site. That allows for free-flowing discussion and sharing of life experiences, which is the only reason I even read the MS. Some proprietors, who will go unnamed, blatantly censor their sites into echo chambers, which really serves none of us. So, Rollo, thanks for that.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Always been my policy (spam excluded).

  • Jay Money

    What is an appropriate reason to get married or enter into a long term relationship? To have children in a traditional family model?

  • avd

    Of all the infinite characters in the MS, I dog on one only: YaReally. Why do I do that? Because of his extreme disrespect for all of us. Do you think I agree with all the commenters’ various styles of game, or even the proprietors? I don’t. Not at all. But I also feel no need to counter them on every point of disagreement. Why? Because they are men, sharing their life experiences with us in an open and honest way—something that is very difficult to come by in the non-internet world. Do I dog on Ya for his style? No, of course not. To each his own.

    I dog on little boy Ya because he is so disrespectful to the community. There are many men in this community who have been royally fucked by females (I’m not one of them, though I have friends who have suffered on that anvil.) When these damaged and broken men express their truths and realities in a most humble and open way in this community, I say a silent prayer for them, and respect them for sharing. I would NEVER, in a million fucking years, roll up on some hurting man’s comments in this community and slap him with an “lol,” as if I were better than him.

    We’re all on this trip, and it’s not always easy. I try to treat this community as sacrosanct—the only fucking place in the world where men can express themselves as men, without fear of female shaming tactics (lol). My comments are caustic to make a point, and that point is that perhaps in this one sacrosanct place in our lives, we should allow everyone free expression, sans the fictional need to AMOG one another.

    As was quite obvious in a recent Ya post-fest, he believes in the entire concept of the (for profit driven PUA community) concept of the AMOG. Well, he brings that worldview and attitude with him in every comment that he posts (and infects young/inexperienced men with it). But, whatever. I’m happy to let him share his worldview, SO LONG AS HE ALSO RESPECTS THE WORLDVIEW OF OTHERS, including men who are not as “advanced” as him.

    Do you find that disagreeable?

    I believe that YaReally is exactly what he has presented himself as being, and I have attempted with generous patience to abide his expression. I could give a fuck what he teaches. The reason he raises my ire is because he disrespects the wide spectrum of men in this community… and actually that is a sure sign of insecurity. Note this: have you ever seen me dis anyone BUT Ya and his gay little followers? No, you haven’t. And why? Because I respect the very wide spectrum of life experiences that are expressed in the MS. I LEARN FROM THEIR SHARING. What Ya’s faux attempts at being the alpha boss of this community accomplish, is muzzling men from sharing their true life experiences… life experiences that we all learn from, even if we don’t share them. His social dynamic muzzling denies all of us from an open sharing. That matters.

    In fact, I’ll extend this olive branch to Ya right now. Ya, recant from your dissing of commenters in the MS, and you will never hear from me again. Post all of the RSD videos you want… it doesn’t bother me in the least.

    Reading some man’s honest expression of his life experience, followed by your inane lol attempt at framing yourself to be “alpha”, beneath this honest guy’s expression of his life… that fucking irks me. And I will hound you and expose your weaknesses until you grow the fuck up and allow everyone to work out their own path in their own sweet goddamned time.

    And this is for the proprietors, all of you: allowing Ya and his ilk to run roughshod over your communities has DIMINISHED the quality of the conversation. It has fostered a culture where young/inexperienced men feel entitled to come here and snipe, snark, bitch, moan and whine. This in no way serves any of us—even the little bitches themselves. They would be far better off led by commenters who express their arguments in the language of logic. Otherwise, they will go through life thinking that it’s ok as a man to express oneself via female language—shaming, framing, solipsism, strawmen, emotion (lol) and the like.

    Ok, time to wrap up. To Ya and his followers: pursue whatever path works for you; I honestly give not one single motherfucking shit. However, be respectful toward the community, and understand that YOUR way is not THE way. By adhering to this one little precept, you will never hear from me again… which should be ample incentive.

  • earl

    “No questions, no discussion, only convenient piety and admonishment.”

    I believe Matt was questioning your judgement of the world…and prolonging a discussion. A humble person always knows their judgement may not always be correct. When a person disagrees with you…it’s an opportunity to look past your view and start looking at it from another side.. Narrowness of any ideology is always doomed to fail…if anything you are shutting it down because you might be afraid that you could be wrong.

    Such as men NEED sex.

    I believe men actually need violence…and sex is one of many outlets. Debating is another.

    So as iron sharpens iron…man sharpens man.

  • earl

    In fact if you ever watched old Dennis Miller shows…he ended every one of his eloquent rants with:

    “Of course that’s just my opinion…I could be wrong.”

  • B. Ess (Ghost of Zeets)

    Whoa doggies Matt you take this Internet shit seriously huh??!

  • Yep It's Me

    Not that it matters to anyone but me…but my STBXW still has me wrapped around her finger – for what ever reason – call it by whatever name you like, but it is real. I basically could give a fuck about any other woman – hell I’ve had multiple opportunities both during marriage and after our separation to have sex.

    ONEitis is real – personally I believe it’s a borderline mental disease – and I have it. Potentially it’s like being an addict and that I will always be an addict, the only thing I can do is manage the condition and limit my exposure to environmental triggers. I don’t know.

    That’s why I’m here. That’s why I read. That’s why I comment. Because no matter how much we know (logically), we (as Men) still have some level of emotional bearing – you can’t have the Ying without the Yang.

    I could give a fuck about Mark Minter or Kate – they are nothing more than names on a page. And I hide behind a generic name to make my comments, afraid to come out from behind the rock – not very manly is it?

    “He who is without sin…” So, don’t believe I’m going to be throwing any stones soon. Flame me if you want – I’m wrestling with my own demons.

  • Matthew King

    Rollo reacted:

    Matt, I can hardly wait to read your convenient prose when either of the Minters come back to the manosphere for advice on marital problems. What songs will you write when they realize the buffer of the Internet and an LDR are a piss poor foundation for a marriage?

    Again, misreading. I make no predictions about the fate of this marriage or the wisdom of entering into it. Unlike you, I am acknowledging the vast unknowable, rather than filling in the many blanks with assumptions that conveniently fit an ideological stamp.

    Matt King is the Hillsboro [sic] Baptist Church of the manosphere. Soldier’s funerals, weddings, no matter the occasion, there he is with the signs, only instead of God Hates Fags, they read God Hates Rollo, Roosh and Roissy.

    No questions, no discussion, only convenient piety and admonishment.

    And just how would you characterize your own treatment of Mark Minter, besides “convenient piety and admonishment”?

    The bottom line is this: in circumstances of apparent betrayal, the easiest reaction is to scapegoat, to find total culpability in another person before even considering one’s own contribution to the dissonance.

    I am trying to make you aware of your own high pedestalization of this mortal man, which made his fall all the more poignant to you. You can avoid repeats by avoiding the pedestalization, which even now you will not blame on your own credulity so much as on a bitter 58-year-old’s magical ability to dupe you. He lied to only those who thirsted for the lie. The rest of us took him — as we take all apparently wise men (Rollo included!) — with a massive grain of salt.

    But in your monomaniacal push, you can only interpret this observation as “Westboro Baptist” tactics comparable in sophistication to your own scapegoating method, and proceed down the garden path once again.

    “I can hardly wait to read” this crowd’s similarly promiscuous wailing and gnashing of teeth when Rollo one day exposes his own feet of clay.

    Matt

  • Yep It's Me

    @Matt

    I fully accept my feet are made of clay and my foundation is sand. I also believe that all voices are needed – and add to the overall debate.

  • avd

    I have no real point in posting this, Rollo, other than calling a spade a spade. I could care less that Minter is hitching himself to Kate. I really just don’t care. Good for them. I hope they’re happy. Sincerely.

    But, my brother, it WAS YOU who built up Minter in the first place. Minter would be NOTHING without your sponsorship. I have nothing against Minter—I actually like the guy. But, here we are. You really need to own this in the MS to retain credibility. Give us a story that we can believe in, please.

  • Yep It's Me

    Words are the easy part – for all of us.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Matt, all you are is the self-appointed slave crying “momento mori” at the back of the chariots of the generals you think need to be reminded of their mortality.

  • avd

    Dude, come on. This is ridiculous on every single level. You must answer for your embrace of someone who betrayed you. Just own it. We’ve all been betrayed. Not that big a deal. Fuck all. We love you. You’re Rollo. Be Rollo and admit that you were duped. We all get duped by fuckwads in life. Own it and move on. We will still love you and we’ll be here to receive your very important lessons about life. But please, don’t fuck with us. Please.

  • avd

    Look, I’m a HUGE fan of Rollo. I think the guy is awesome. But truth is truth, and when a leader veers from that path, someone must call it out. Rollo is a human being, with all of the positive attributes and faults that come with that. I call him out, out of love and respect. Let us all move forward. I still intend to remain updated on Rollo’s teachings… because his teachings are valuable in my life.

  • Sean

    Add Anna Karenina to the books from authors who delve into marriage at a later date. Karenin is beta, she steps out on him, etc.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    avd, I’m not going to disown Mark. One thing I’d disagree with Roosh about is that I think what he wrote here and what I posted of his comments I thought were valuable and deserved a forum to address. Minter’s past ideas still have merit, but just like Barry Bonds, he’s going to always have an asterisk next to those posts now.

    I don’t believe Roosh or I were ‘duped’ because I think he was sincere in his ideas at that time, but as I’ve detailed in many prior posts, killing the beta is the most difficult part of the red pill.

    I won’t be scrubbing anything Mark posted, nor will I purge the blog posts I put up with his writing because the truth in them was what was important. That is what owning it is about. I don’t moderate my comments for exactly this reason.

    I think the progression that led to this marriage, the lack of discernment, the LDR, the buffer of the Internet and Kate’s own neuroses are all things I’ve covered on this blog and my writing for over 10 years. After all of this, after all of the influence Mark has credited me with for his red pill awakening, the blue pill want for an idealized woman, no matter how desperate or improbable still trumps all of that. If I’m disappointed about anything this would be it.

    Duped? No, if anything it’s a grand testament to the depths to which men need to change themselves in order to kill the beta.

  • deti

    someone named “Sminter1″ is posting at ROK that she is Minter’s ex wife, that he never sees his kids, that he lives with his sister and hasn’t worked in 5 years, and that his upcoming nuptials with Kate would be marriage number 4 for him. To paraphrase Novaseeker over at SSM’s place, that seems like a hell of a risk for both of them, even worse odds than for a first or second marriage.

  • M3

    What Minter wrote has merit, but that message can be carried by anybody. Minter i think lost any credibility to lay claim to those views he’s espoused now that he went against it.

    I found a woman. Not 100% up to the sphere’s ideals, but perfect for me, in a situation that is OPTIMAL for me.. which still includes my must have caveats..

    -no marriage
    -having no desire to have kids
    -youth (or youthful, healthy appearance)
    -feminine pleasant, redpill ideals

    In blackjack, she was a winning hand. And i didn’t have to offer up marriage to get it. Even if she asked, i would never say yes to marriage again, but i know she won’t since she’s also a product of the current system. We work on our relationship on a day to day basis, earning each other trust, respect and loyalty every day without locking up into a legal quagmire where entitlement/obligation and duty requirement replace the need to be vigilant and never becoming complacent.

    Marriage is a finish line and a reason to stop trying. And when one sex holds all the aces to stop trying..

    I’m happy where i am. Im still MGTOW, i just have company because she’s going MY WAY willingly beside me.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I’m not sure who’s desperation scares me more, Marks or Kate’s.

    This is why I’m still skeptical of the whole thing. If this ends up being some kind of epic trolling, then I’ll own up to being duped.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I won’t link to manboobz but if you want to see the mess this shit has made just have a look.

  • asnark

    Rollo – you’re saying MM has lost frame and is breaking omerta for pussy, correct? It all stinks of desperation? But you are married,…following the script as well…Throwing stones while living in a glasshouse…At least you kept the post generic and didn’t immediately name names.

    I love your blog and will buy your book as soon as it hits the presses… But I take everything you say with a grain of salt because I can’t see you and your wife interact with each other. Keyboard warriors abound…

    But suppose you are The Rational Male, how do you keep yourself “ever vigilant” as @nick says? Didn’t 50 say “reality is my drug”? How do you keep yourself grounded?

  • Yep It's Me

    // Hijack

    On a different subject, seems over at The Private Man, PM is changing his comment policy – as in starting to moderate comments, so as to appeal to a broader audience (i.e. not offending the ladies) – because of a profit motive to provide both male and females based dating advice. Seems the ladies don’t like the “brutish” comments available on his blog and can’t discern between comments by his readers and the article itself. First Athol bending his knee, now PM.

    Who will be next?

    Hijack //

  • earl

    “Duped? No, if anything it’s a grand testament to the depths to which men need to change themselves in order to kill the beta.”

    There is no need to kill the undesirable Greek letter…for every man has it and will always have it.

    It is better to submit to a higher power. The higher power though isn’t women.

  • HRH Prince Frederick of Flange

    I have been front and center for too many of these blood and thunder circuses. Knowing Minter’s bitterness (these ex-military guys are often the most beta and therefore the most bitter when it collapses – think about it), and assuming that is the ex-wife posting, I would be very leery of amplifying or replaying any of it for shits, giggles or revenge (something Futrelle – and the ex, if that’s her – should keep in mind if they’re going to brag to us that they Think About the Children). If anything makes This Old Cunt (me) see red it’s supposed grown-ups doing shit that makes the kids want to hde under the floorboards. As for the couple, they are adults, they know the odds, I wish them well anyway, they will sort their shit out, and we will see what we will see.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @asnark, I expected this. You haven’t been reading nearly long enough:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/02/28/fidelity/

    For the record I’m not anti-marriage, I’m anti-never-saw-it-coming-pollyana-how-could-she-do-this-to-me?-hypergamy’s-a-bitch marriage.

    Every man who’s married doesn’t follow the Script, and every man who follows the Script isn’t always married.

  • Senior Beta

    Let me see if I have this straight. Marriage for you and Athol and Ian and other red pill guys is cool. But if Mark falls off the wagon and get hitched to, by all accounts, a red pill woman he is a traitor, loser, hypocrite, etc.? WTF is wrong with this picture?

  • Yep It's Me

    @SrBeta…

    Believe the issue at hand is that for the past year, the now infamous Mark Minter, has written a few thousand words about how “marriage in the US is for suckers” and has urged every man (regardless of age) to go ahead and seek an LTR (at their own risk), but never, ever marry (at least within the borders of the USA).

    The words did not match the actions.

    And I agree with an article on RoK that Roosh wrote that’s like the “Conservative Right Winger” that preaches about family values while diddling little boys on the side.

    But words are just words. We don’t meet Face-to-Face, we don’t live next door to each other, so all we ever have are words to judge each other by. His actions fell short of his words.

  • avd

    To be crystal clear: I am a fan of Rollo. I believe that he runs a well-oiled machine, taking everyone’s feelings into account with his postings. As mentioned previously, I care not for the Minter/Kate saga. However, many other commenters were calling out Rollo for his role in the event. I care not, but because I respect Rollo, I will call a spade a spade, when it’s appropriate. That said, I have NEVER believed that Rollo is perfect. That’s kind of what makes him cool : that he’s one of us. So, Rollo, please consider this post as me pushing back such that we are at arm’s length. I have no desired to engage you mano y mano. I’m totally happy to observe your expressions. If I ever do feel the need to engage you directley, believe me, you will feel it. But today, I’m nowhere near that place. Carry on, friend. Peace.

  • peoplegrowing

    I’m happy where i am. Im still MGTOW, i just have company because she’s going MY WAY willingly beside me.

    Brilliant.

    I understand the backlash and the fact that a lot of commenters (and maybe lurkers) are upset about Minter’s nuptials. I know I was shell-shocked for probably about 30 minutes myself.

    But I think the community is kind of forgetting two things:

    While it is clearly accepted (and I don’t disagree) that men are much more rational than women are, that doesn’t mean that men are all unfeeling robots who only ever act rationally (unless under the bitter control of the beta, perhaps?). Men have feelings too – duh. And all of Minter’s tirades were OBVIOUSLY very emotional. There was a metric fuck ton of rhetoric in all his posts (or, at least, all the ones that made waves enough to be reposted here and at RoK). Anyone who could read through those posts and accept uncritically, “Here is a man who has made a completely rational decision without any emotional component at all,” is either foolish or fooling themselves.

    I know its a hatecrime around here to accuse a man of being bitter, but I think maybe Minter had a bit of bitterness. I am certain he was JUSTIFIED, and I don’t think that invalidates his points, but it was definitely part of the “thought process.”

    And when we don’t recognize the emotions in our thought patterns, then sometimes we can come to either wrong conclusions, OR we can take those conclusions farther than we otherwise, rationally, would. I suspect that’s what happened to Minter. He came to the right conclusions (modern marriage definitely is completely bullocks for men), and his emotion and energy served as a poignant warning for a lot of men to consider very carefully. But I think he got swept up in his own emotion and maybe took things further than he would have from a coldly detached viewpoint. This doesn’t invalidate all he said, it just means you should remember where he’s coming from. For some people, that will be an even more compelling argument – “If he got that upset that he lost a grip on his rationality, it really MUST be bad.” Of course, others, and, notably, women will be likely to dismiss his words the more readily because he’s “bitter” – that’s why bitter is such a bad word in the ‘sphere.

    And my second point, which I’ve already touched on, is that if we’re truly being logical, we can recognize the truth in something, regardless of the source. I thought Rollo had even written on this before (perhaps in “The Medium is the Message”? I’m not sure). Yeah, it sucks, a lot, when people can’t manage to hold their own ideals. But if you adopted those ideals, and are disappointed now to see Minter fail, then you should consider not whether Minter is a hypocrite, but whether the ideals are still valid. Are they true, and worth holding onto for their own sake, or did you get swept up in the cult of personality, the rhetoric, and adopt a stance that’s not actually true or realistic? Again, this is why the ‘sphere (I thought) encouraged listening to everyone who can contribute, regardless of their emotional state, because even bitter, angry people sometimes find the truth, and sometimes even rational, logical people lack the experience and feeling necessary to grasp the real problems – the things we learn about through the misery of other men, who share, that we all might understand.

  • FuriousFerret

    I feel sorry for Mark. He just played a character and played it well and got burned in the end.

    All of his dirty laundry came out with everybody analyzing it. At the end of the day, Mark is simply a broken down 58 year old man that is in a fucked up place and is desperate. I believe that he meant what he wrote on some level even though he’s not following through with it.

    I don’t think he should be thrown to the wolves. The guy seems mentally fragile. A lot of guys have serious issues that frequent this blog. I was fucked up by conservative fundie Christianity and subsequent severe acne for many years of my life. I guess I’m not an icon that is adamantly preaching a message that resonates with people though.

    Men that aren’t held in high esteem want it. He got praise and accolades for what he wrote so he keep doing it. He created a persona that filled a hole that he couldn’t fulfill in real life. The character just keep feeding onto itself. Growing and growing until reaching a tipping point of hubris. A laughable temptation appeared and brought the illusion crumbling to it’s knees.

    The good news is that for Mark himself, this doesn’t have to be a big deal. So what, he was found out as not being the guy that people wanted him to be and that he projected as being. It ultimately means nothing. This is a digital space. Mark can just leave. At 58 years old, what exactly is the worst that can happen? He gets married and divorced. Guy has no money, what the hell is Kate going to take. He’s basically broke and she’s going to support him. If I was in his position I would take that deal.

    Also, one of the central tenants that was reinforced is that you don’t give a fuck about what others think. You have courage to do what you want for yourself. I find amusement of the decision to just say fuck it and marry Kate. What can the manosphere do to Mark? Call him names and deride his decision. Why should he give a fuck? Ultimately Mark wants younger blond pussy. That’s truly what he wants. More than admiration from guys. He’s thirsty for thin milf pussy. Views this as his last shot and found a decent looking girl fucked up enough to marry him without meeting him (don’t know about this though, have they met or not???) knowing that he has no money, no real world status and on paper hates the institution that she wants to enter into.

    I don’t know man, to me it seems like Mark is making out like a bandit in this situation. It validates all sorts of concepts explored here. Despite that Mark would be considered a loser by society, a thin much younger girl wants to marry him simply because he achieved status in a online community she inhabits and he displays signs of aggressiveness and dominance.

    Despite him having the scorn of people for doing a complete 180 in a extremely bizarre way, I can’t help put amusedly root for this guy. It’s just too surreal.

  • avd

    Damn, you really just wrote that? Very strong.

    // break to my own irreverent comments:

    Little pussies should NOT be allowed expression in the MS. We should CENSOR their asses into oblivion. I’m kidding, a little bit. However, am I wrong about that? Little pussies, let’s hear your synatptical responses, little pussies. They will keep us entertained all day long.

  • xsplat

    I’m going to repost from the commentary about Minter on the RVF:

    worldwidetraveler Wrote: Principles isn’t something you toss away at any inconvenience. They are what hold you true to yourself. You only know what type of man you are when things get tough but you stick to your principles. When you easily discard them for “happiness”, you are not a man in my eyes.

    Didn’t Gandhi get away with saying something that could be paraphrased as “principles are for those who can’t re-organize their views?”

    Principles. What are principles? Unchanging beliefs. What good are unchanging beliefs? Well, they make you feel like you live in a safe, secure world, where you have some bedrock of SOMETHING to hold on to.

    That’s not a useful feeling.

    It’s better to be flexible and adaptable.

    The main principles, the foundational principles, are extremely broad. Truth and happiness. All else must fall in line and change when they are not in accord with truth and happiness.

    If not marrying is a principle that diminishes happiness then it is a principle that is in need of updating for a fresh principle.

    Views change, and if not, the man is too stiff and trying to solidify Truth and then rest satisfied with that solidification forever?. Even Newton couldn’t solidify Truth, and he was a big wig. What makes you think any one else should try to solidify Truth? It’s a fools errand. We must adapt and change our views and principles, as new information and even as new opportunities arise.

    Wanting to have a bedrock of solid beliefs is for the religiously inclined, not for seekers of truth and happiness.

    worldwidetraveler Wrote: Looking back at his previous writing and you think jumping from one extreme to another is “personal growth”?

    I’m not saying if he’s taken a step towards personal growth or not, but at least he’s owning that part of himself that wants to bond with a woman and have steady female companionship. That, at least, is a step in a good direction. Whether his tactic to achieve that aim is the best strategy or not, I won’t comment. At least he now admits to some needs that he previously denied. At least he’s accepting his humanity now. He’s not the autonomous robot that he wished he were.

    ***********

    I like how Rollo is framing this; Mark is slipping back into beta and not realizing that his emotional cravings and being swept up in the swoon or romance are not necessarily leading to a happily ever after, but are only temporary and are leading him to make concessions to his autonomy.

    All true.

    But. The big but. The big but is that Mark was lonely and didn’t admit it to himself or anyone else. He, as with nearly all male humans, craved intimacy with at least one woman in ways deeper and more continual than short flings could provide.

    So that is what Rollo has not been addressing lately. Men must both know truth and admit to their true human natures, and seek both truth and happiness.

    Maybe the strategy Mark is taking is as good a compromise as he can make right now. Perhaps he’ll be happier for a year or two. Maybe longer.

    Truth and happiness are the fundamental principles in life. Not beta and alpha.

  • A Man for All Seasons

    I don’t always agree with Matthew King, but he’s spot on here. Mark Minter was extremely bitter over marriage, and he expressed it in prose that really reached a lot of people. I think most will recognize the truism that people expressing the most extreme opinions in the strongest manner are generally failing to see the whole truth of the situation. It was almost inevitable that someone with such strong opinions would moderate them over time.

    Of course, much of what Mark was saying was true. Marriage frequently becomes stale and stifling over the years, and AWALT. However, many if not most men in the Manosphere will say how their grandmother was a worthy wife to their grandfather, and it is only the current state of society that makes marriage a sham.

    There is something in the heart of men that desires marriage, and wants to grow old with their beloved wife by their side. This is real, and there are plenty of people who have had long and happy marriages.

    A red pill woman is an excellent choice for such a marriage in this current day. I don’t care if she has a child. Until recent decades, a large portion of families were blended, because early death was far more common. Raising another man’s child is not the end of the world. I understand the risks and disadvantages, but its not a completely black and white issue. If a man finds happiness with a woman and wants to wed, and if the circumstances are right, let him marry. Blessings upon the couple, and may their marriage be blessed with healthy children.

    Everybody is so bitter that Mark Minter went back on his extreme, bitter, rants. Yeah, he felt that way at the time, and understandably so. Now you want to condemn him to bitterness for the rest of his life?

    That’s like being butthurt because a rock star who made his fame with angry hard rock music has mellowed into older age and has found peace of mind. Why would you wish that a person who expresses bitterness and anger effectively be stuck in that place in their lives forever? Many of us bemoan the risks of marriage, but usually because we wish it was available to us as it was to our grandfathers. Mark saw a chance that looked good, and he took it.

  • FuriousFerret

    “Mark is slipping back into beta and not realizing that his emotional cravings and being swept up in the swoon or romance are not necessarily leading to a happily ever after, but are only temporary and are leading him to make concessions to his autonomy.”

    I have a question pertaining to this that nobody has asked/answered at least from what I’ve seen.

    Why do they have to get married in the first place?

    Why can’t they just shack up together and call it good?

    First off, the risk is certainly not even on Mark’s end. They are on Kate’s. Point blank.

    Mark has no money, job and IRS problems. So all the risk is terms of assets on are on Kate. She will owe the IRS money. She has the potential for alimony. ROFL on that one. All this negatives and she is probably the one insisting on marriage in the first place. She should be the one wanting to only shack up together. Fuck being legit. Being married is a vestige of a society that ran on some type of morals. It basically means nothing anymore.

    Mark is the one winning here. He gets thin blonde pussy that to him is young while getting his money problems and support taken care of. If I didn’t know better, it’s like he’s running a confidence game.

    LOL.

  • rmaxgenactivepua

    @xsplat

    Grow a set of balls already, & quit talking like a pussy whipped bitch, ffs

    Your prose reads like a permanently menopausal lesbian bitch, its irritating as fuck

    Women arent meant to be enjoyed, you retard, theyre meant to be dominated & made into cock whores for our pleasure, THATS what women are for

    You’re pedestalising of women & supplication, proves you dont know jack shit about the world, or how it works

    Survial of the fittest, & he who dares, two sentences mangina con artists like you will never understand

  • FuriousFerret

    Everybody has this all wrong. Way wrong. This guy is a motherfucking hero. A true saboteur.

    What is a hot button issue around the sphere? Women hitting the wall and marrying beta men and using them for their resources.

    Mark has flipped this script hard.

    Mark:

    - Hit the male wall probably 10 years ago and that’s being generous.
    - Has no money, fucking OWES the worst organization to owe money to the IRS, I would rather owe money to Teddy ‘KGB’
    - Lives with his sister
    - Is basically persona non grata in any professional environment

    Kate:

    - Master’s degree and teacher
    - Owns house and has parents with money
    - Thin blonde in a country of land whales that practices blond inflation.
    - Although a little loopy, seems to not be a nagging feminazi, sweet personality

    Mark: 10000000000000000
    Kate: 0

    Good job Buddy.

    For Kate, I guess if you really find someone that you respect, even if it’s from truly fucked up circumstances. That’s something. This world is too crazy and too fucked up to play everything so safe. There are plenty of weird people that are truly happy in world punctuated by quiet despair. Turning your back on society and it’s rules might be the answer to contentment. Worth a shot for people brave enough to take it. Epic failures are still epic.

  • Sam Spade

    You know something…I’m really not going to worry about some guy named Mark. Today the manosphere sounded like a womanosphere….like feminists out for blood at first sight of “betrayal.” Better to say fuck it and move on.

  • Westcoaster

    Man, where do you get these classic photos — they really add to the blog. Great article, too, thanks. I was LMAO at this latest photo.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    One thing still bugs me though; while I’m getting the feeling this is legit, I still can’t shake the feeling it’s all a troll.Maybe it’s too big for a trolling, but think about these points for a minute:

    1.) Both Mark and Kate are for lack of a better term manosphere veterans. They’ve been commenting at every blog from Sunshinemary’s to Firepower’s old blog for 3+ years, in Kate’s case longer. Both of them had to know how the news of their LDR, internet buffer, single mom, militant bachelor, conniving ex-wife, marriage announcement was going to be taken in the manosphere. There’s no way you can tell me they expected anything different than the response they got.

    2.) In spite of that, Kate (in typical female fashion) played the giddy bride to be and gushed to the “red pill woman” hen house about their engagement. From what I’ve read she honestly expected warm congratulations from her manosphere girlfriends (including more than a few men), but was shocked to find that anyone might question her judgement, much less her sanity. She was comfortable enough at CH to make her announcement, but that wasn’t enough. She then made her rounds where she thought she could find chick support, SSM’s for instance, who wanted to lay claim to playing matchmaker.

    3.) Either Mark and Kate are inherently stupid or this is a long-con troll. If either had any inclination as to how their “relationship” would go over in the manosphere they would never have made such a spectacle of themselves. So either they are both exceptionally naive or this is a scam.

    Mark cannot possibly have thought he wouldn’t be strung up as a hypocrite, but Kate made the decision (maybe naively) to dress herself up as the first manosphere bride. Did she honestly think Roosh, Roissy and myself would be Mark’s groomsmen? Was SSM going to be her maid of honor?

    It’s easy to rip Mark as a hypocrite, but maybe it’s Kate who needs the real psychotherapy.

  • anon

    I loved the movie Admission because it didn’t remotely adhere to the retarded predictable romcom script. Instead, Tina Fey’s character was the neurotic one in need of a transformative journey after her fiancee dumps her for another woman and she comes to believe a son she gave up for adoption if being fostered by the new love interest.

    Reviewers mostly panned it and it has like a 5.5 on IMDB while movies like Crazy Stupid Love have 7.9s lol. People loooveeee predictability.

  • booger

    There is no escaping the hive mind; the Feminine Imperative.
    Resistance is Futile.

    In any case, the lesson I learned from all this: Don’t blog under your real name. Duh!

    I think the only reasonable thing to do is continue to work on my attractiveness so that I can be one of the guys who gets a free pass to get away with everything women like to blame men and the “patriarchy” for. It’s not necessarily because I’m doing it for women: I’m doing it for myself so women will not be an impediment to my life objectives. Just as we are discovering there are mangina subversives within the supposedly anti-feminist manosphere, then there should also be black knight red-pill subversives within the greater mainstream and feminist culture.

    As a mostly average male, there’s literally no option to escape the system unless I really plug out of the grid and live in the wilderness as a hermit. It’s fine and dandy to be an “invisible man” or a ghost, but I also crave some power to change the world, not just myself. Within the system, there are still pockets of male fiefdoms as such the IT field where I currently work, hard sciences and engineering, blue-collar manual labor, and revolutionary entrepreneurship. Every other field of work as well as everything at home and in the popular media have been thoroughly feminized.

  • xsplat

    It does say a lot about Mark that he was hypocritical. But he had to be, though, didn’t he? He never owned his own emotional need for intimacy. He split that off from himself, and imputed it onto OTHER, weaker, less knowledgeable men.

    That was a huge mistake in self understanding.

    What’s more, rather than just split off his own longings onto weaker men, he saw others doing the same thing, and used that as a means to gain an audience. He used that audience for attention for his creative urges. He used the needs of others for a community of like-minded-victims-of-fail as a claim to fame and status, to a claim to a readership.

    Of course his stance was untenable. He was lonely. He could not keep up such a stance unless no one offered intimacy to him.

    But given the choices of being discovered as lacking in self knowledge and therefore switching strategies by being a hypocrite to a previous stated stance that would never feed your repressed desires for intimacy, and sticking to your guns and avoiding intimacy and being lonely and broke with little hope of ever meeting as good an offer ever again, which would you choose?

    No one wants to be hypocritical. And no one wants to be wrong, either. Mark was wrong about not wanting intimacy, therefore he had no choice but to eventually become a hypocrite.

  • anon

    Also I heard a co-worker of mine repeat this phrase “Women need love, men need sex”. F’kn lol, possibly the most blue pill words ever uttered. For context, he was wondering why I approach and close so many women at my desk job at my school’s gym and I posited that perhaps these women would like my penis inside of their vagina and he told me I was wrong about this. Not trying to brag, for the record my success rate is pretty low but I probably ask for avg 0.4 phone numbers every hour I work and the job has given me soooo much practice with cold approaches.

  • BC

    and on a lighter note…

    Any other guys out there willing to “take one for the team?”
    Maya, feministx, Jar Jar Binks Neecy and other Heartiste groupies are waiting.

  • Sp5

    @ Yep it’s Me: You need to break out of your frame to get over your oneitis. Take a trip, go to Colombia or Thailand. Hell, take a weekend trip to a city a couple hour’s drive away and hit some C&W music bar – prime hunting territory, especially if you are older.

    I am similarly situated to Minter and others in age and in that a long-term marriage that I invested a lot in collapsed when my wife became unhapppy.

    So I appreciated where he was coming from, but thought he was way to bitter and hateful. I’d think when I was reading him: Hey, dude, women can be fun, lighten up. Donlak once wrote: One reason it’s called “game” is because it’s supposed to be fun. There was no ludic spirit in anything Minter wrote about women.

    I now ascribe that to Minter’s oneitis – he was so invested in his ex-wife, he wallowed in bitter bile until the next “One” came along. On the other hand, I took the lessons learned and started spinning plates, which works OK for me. Maybe I’ll get married again, but it will likely be for clear economic reasons, i.e. a woman who has skills and provides comfort who can take care of me.

  • Cash

    Hey rollo, you should check this video on YouTube ” Dick Materson”. He has been blunt in telling things that most people won’t say about women on Tv. All the things in the mamosphere are being described by the guy. I checked his video to the DR Phil. It’s gold

  • Johnycomelately

    “This is a long-con troll.”

    You have to remember the ‘sphere is currently the most dangerous place on the planet, it is more threatening to the establishment than a thousand terrorists.

    Less than 1% of men checking out costs billions, not to mention the long term effects of negative replacement levels and social stability.

    Given that, I would expect every vested political group on the planet to be trolling and pushing their agendas. Minter and Aunt giggles are just the tip of the ice berg.

  • Different T

    @ Matthew King

    Mark and Kate are fools doing the best they can with the resources available.

    What was it you called Kate a month or two ago? Something from a Plato book…

  • The One Reason

    I guess one cannot make this sh1t up.
    Popcorn, please. Big bucket.

    Touching on both the issues of MS groupies and women (and the feminine imperative) entering MS comment boards:
    http://no-maam.blogspot.fi/2010/06/no-maams-guide-to-bird-watching-in.html

    As for the Private Man’s screening policy, it’s a pity, but on the other hand, I guess that the readers there are in general less dark triad-oriented and moreover older than, say at Roissy’s or on RSD boards.
    Which was also on display as the London PUA instructor Steve Jabba made a guest post there in january; the number of negative reactions in the comments on the “cheesy PUA stuff” (as opposed to a more “honest” and mature approach) was rather startling. I wonder how many were from women commenters… I guess moderation is only a logical new step.
    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/does-game-work-and-three-ways-to-get-it-guest-post/
    (Love PM nevertheless. Heh.)

    AMfAS:
    If the angry and outspoken rock musician changed his direction 180 musically in a heartbeat due to a lucrative record deal, fame and money (and all that entails), then I would call him phony, not “mellowing”. (Guys like John “Rotten” Lydon at least made interesting and innovative music in their post-punk 180 and simultaneously may have also taken a hit financially.)

    Spade:
    I agree on moving on, but on the other hand, MS doesn’t and never will have the public support that feminism had in its formative years. Like A. Dworking — hmm, or someone straight — suddenly confessing to her undying love of the Patriarchy(R), because of NAMALT. This is still going to be a farcical blot in the annals of the MS.

    Next I want YaReally to drop out of pickup and start frequenting SciFi and Warcrafter fairs.

  • Thomas Gray

    Looking from a distance at how this whole drama unfolds I can only think that there are other elements at play that shock people. Elements that are more fundamental to the whole manosphere and current way of thinking in the manosphere than we all realize. Elements that are deep enough in our beliefs to elicit such anger once shaken.

    Farmost the reigning emotion at Mark’s ‘cop-out’ is that of betrayal. ‘Hypocrit,’ ‘sellout,’ etc, are some of the milder terms flying towards his head. Although some of this anger might be justified if one reasons that Mark broke his principles, the question can also be asked ‘did he really?’ I believe Xsplat is on the right track concerning the view on principles at play here. And fundamentally also what might prove to be a significant flaw in the foundation of the manosphere.

    Ever since I found the manosphere, after I studied Pick-Up on my own for 3 years, in 2010, the terms Alpha and Beta have been at the core of every piece of literature written. Any idea or concept focusses on the dynamic between these two categorizations of a man. These terms seem to have been followed soon by Red pill and Blue pill. And together these four terms now constitute the heart of the manosphere. Alpha and Beta referring to the state of man that is aspired to and Red pill and Blue pill the state of mind that is aspired to.

    Every action seems to be judged on these terms as well “that was Alpha/Beta,” “he needs to swallow the Red pill.” And the journey to becoming a Man seems to be becoming Alpha and Red pill. Most of the manosphere articles seem to be focused on how to make Alpha’s out of Beta’s and how to wake men up by swallowing the Red pill instead of the Blue pill life they’re living.

    But did anyone ask the question or think of the possiblity that this might not be possible?

    Education is aimed at giving people power over their choices through knowledge. In essence that is what the manosphere is trying to do too. However, by giving people power over their choices you are not fundamentally changing who they are. They might look at the world differently after they gained their new found knowledge. But certain drives and desires will still remain within that person. They are a part of him.

    And so, I believe, it is also with the inclination of being an Alpha or Beta male. And the behavioural patterns associated with these natural hierarchies.

    Alpha’s will be Alpha’s. Beta’s will be Beta’s. Always.

    You can instill a Red pill way of thinking in a person, but who they are born as will not change. By adopting a Red pill way of life the Beta may resemble an Alpha more, but he will never become one.

    My professor in university once said this in a discussion about gender in surveys. (Regardless of his right or wrong, I think the idea he proposes is applicable here as well.) ‘Why do you want to know the sex of a person when you are not actively researching the difference between genders? Would it not make more sense to ask their inclination that would indicate their dominance? Having a sub or dom personality might be far more indicative of certain behaviour than the mere distinction between male and female.’

    And so I also believe we can look at the terms Alpha and Beta. You are born, or created through early nurture, either Alpha or Beta, just as you are born a male or female. As we all know from evolutionary biology there are far more Beta’s in nature than there are Alpha’s. And for good reason. Leaders are few, while followers are many. Otherwise nothing would ever get done.

    Taking this arguement we can then look what the manosphere tries to accomplish and judge it reasonable or not. Or rather I should say, what many people involved in the manosphere believe the manosphere tries to accomplish. And that is to turn Beta’s into Alpha’s, because just living by the Red pill isn’t enough. If living by the Red pill would be enough then that means the Red pill ideas would be able to satisfy the needs of a Beta male. But as we can see from Mark Minter’s case study, merely swallowing the Red pill is not enough, killing the Beta it does not. There is a need for something more. Certain principles, most importantly happiness, are not achievable for Beta personalities by just swallowing the Red pill. And thus they fall back onto what they do know gives them happiness. Even if it may only be for a short period of time.

    From the entire Mark Minter situation I believe, that this fundamental element that Beta’s will never be able to become Alpha’s, is a shock to most of the manosphere. It shakes their belief system, it is a scary thought.

    What I propose to say is that the manosphere is not creating Beta’s. At most it is creating Sigma’s. And only those Beta’s who are damaged enough not to fall back into their old personality are the ones that are able to become a Sigma. And thus an example to the rest of the manosphere.

    Sigma’s are characterized by living alone. And the property of being able to live alone could very well be smaller than the natural occuring amount of Alpha’s.

  • Thomas Gray

    Should read ” the manosphere is not creating Alpha’s.” in the second to last paragraph.

  • Different T

    There’s no way you can tell me they expected anything different than the response they got.

    Damn, you’re slipping.

    “First Lady of the Manosphere” has a nice ring to it in the hollow cavern of female solipsism.

  • fakeemail

    Where is that picture of the man hugging the woman’s butt from?

  • translate from spanish to eglish

    oh that picture. .poor man, yeah where did you get that one?

  • Yep It's Me

    If nothing else, this whole thing has stimulated some very interesting thoughts and concepts to seep through the filters. As shocking (maybe) as the events are – long con or just strange about face or potential meta-alpha – these events have created more awareness.

    The great thing about Men, regardless of what world they live in, is that we are problem solvers – and we seen this “thing” as something to be solved, motives to be dissected, researching backgrounds, words, phrases, timelines.

    BUT….

    At sometime in the future, this will dissolve into nothing more than an interesting bit of history. A cautionary tale. We have no attention span any more (as witnessed by the ever evolving 24-hour newscasts, newsbites, twitter, vine, etc.) – we need stimulation to keep our minds going and we love storylines that “don’t fit” because then we have something to keep our minds occupied for a while – until the next thing comes along.

    I have to say, I have enjoyed the comments here – I have enjoyed the varying opinions, the various scenarios, the fitting of the pieces of the puzzle to make sense of it.

    I’ve said it before – I don’t care about either of them. For all I know, they are not even the real people – the real Mark Minter or Kate could have no idea their names were co-opted – or they could be a group of college students doing a masters/doctoral study on the impact of social media – or a 13 year old girl from South Korea. Because that’s the beauty of the internet – we can hide behind the AVATAR.

    But for the record – the following is true of me…I am 51, I am separated from my wife, I have filed for divorce, I have three teenage kids, I have a job, I am an American citizen. As for the rest – I am seeking my path and purpose and could care less about Alpha/Beta, Red Pill/Blue Pill.

    Words are easy.

  • liam

    @xsplat its all fine and dandy saying be like bruce lee, be like water, change and adapt and all that crap, but in real life a man is judged a lot on his word and how he adheres to it. If a guy changes his opinions every other day to fit his percieved predicament he would lose respect off all his mates and friends very quickly. Then where would that leave him?

  • Underdog

    @ liam

    Who gives a shit how others perceive you. Bitch and moan all we want, Minter is laughing all the way to his new pussy. In the end, your own happiness is all that matters.

  • Immediate

    “What kind of idea are you? Are you the kind that compromises, does deals, accommodates itself to society, aims to find a niche, to survive; or are you the cussed, bloody-minded, ramrod-backed type of damn fool notion that would rather break than sway with the breeze? – The kind that will almost certainly, ninety-nine times out of hundred, be smashed to bits; but, the hundredth time, will change the world.”

    ― Salman Rushdie

  • liam

    @underdog……yea yea more mental masturbation………i fully intend to, and am carving my own path, but to keep changing your beliefs and opinions to fit the current narrative, is gonna make you lose all the respect of your friends and people close to you. Im listened to and what i say to my friends is valued and respected exactly because i don’t change my mind all the time. You think having your opinion ridiculed all the time because you never keep to anything you say is gonna bring you closer to that elusive happiness. No.

  • Leo G

    “water follows the path of least resistance, yet can carve a valley out of stone”

    The Bhuddha

  • Copyleft

    Meanwhile, the man who NEVER changes his opinions remains wrong even when he’s given the opportunity to be right.

  • BlackPoisonSoul

    Amusing, the whole Mark Minter and GeishaKate thing. All these men butthurt about it – why? Why’d you go and put someone else up on a pedestal, instead of using his story in the way that he meant it to be: as a cautionary tale.

    I for one don’t want to be a trophy-husband to one of Heartiste’s groupie-girls. Though I might lay one for some sex-fun-play if the opportunity should occasion.

    I remember commenting (as YB back then) and giving GeishaKate an assripping for telling men to act with integrity and to look after our souls. My response included: “Given the demonstrated lack of integrity in women’s souls, your attempt to use the blame/shame/maim tactic to make us look at the state of our souls = mega-fail.”

    GK: “It really wasn’t my intention to shame anyone.” <—- backtracking

    Itsme: "Autoshame is a feature built into every female." <—- priceless!

    GK: "I guess that's what happens when I shift out of autoflirt. Wonder what the other gears are…" <—- admits to flirting with Manosphere men deliberately, guess its no surprise that someone got hooked

    For the curious, it was in the comments of this post: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/his-adultery-spices-up-marriage/

    At any rate, it will be interesting to watch this example of bread'n'circuses until the furor and bitching dies down.

    *popcorn*

  • Yep It's Me

    @BlackPoisonSoul

    ++1

    Save me a seat at the arena!

  • mickey

    Hey Rollo,

    I have a question for you that I’ve been mulling over for some time now.

    Which popular, current show, set in modern day, has the most complex male characters? And by complex, I mean, strong alpha-ish persona. Preferably this is a show watched by young men (teens through mid 20s).

    I’m thinking of the shows young men would look to for role models in pop culture. Game of Thrones has complex alpha characters, but it’s a fantasy show. Don Draper is probably the most complex on a popular TV show, but Mad Men is set 40-50 years ago.

    The shows that come to mind for me are Workaholics and Always Sunny in Philadelphia. These shows though, clearly, are comedies with not a whole lot of depth to their characters.

    So which could it be? Glee? Or am I missing something here…

  • gregg

    Natural state of man is slavery. Slavery to women. We all are made that way and almost all from us stay that way. All our life. Do not believe? Ask any married man, what is the most important thing in his life. FAMILY. Aka – his WIFE and his CHILDREN. Backbone of feminine reality. Most men would DIE for their wives and children.

    You migh be divorced and frustrated – your master (wife) abandoned you or you might be single and chasing pussy (willing to do almost EVERYTHING to have pussy in your life). Or you are spining plates – searching for suitable master. Still no difference. S L A V E R Y. Sad but true.

    Do we really expect from such slave to have his own VALUES, SELF, BELIEF and FREEDOM? Nope. Suitable women catches and ensalves him just like that. He is but a toy for women – his brain, emotions, mind, his very body is structured that way. He is here to facilitate feminine reality, to improve HER world, to care and protect her and if needed to DIE for her. This is ALL he ever were. Great majority of men are not able to be free. Freedom fights the basic rule of evolution – male displays, female chooses. Free man does not display. He is always the exception, not the rule. Rare breed indeed.

  • sunshinemary

    One thing still bugs me though; while I’m getting the feeling this is legit, I still can’t shake the feeling it’s all a troll.

    Agreed. I thought the same thing once someone explained the situation to me, though the longer it goes on, the more it seems that it must be true. I actually don’t know MM very well; he’s never commented on my site SFAIK. Kate has commented every now and then, but she’s not a regular, so I didn’t catch how odd their engagement was at first, and I was laughing at the reaction so many people in the sphere were having. My readers have since clued me in as to why everyone was so angry, and I guess I can kind of see why people were irked.

    You write:

    Kate who needs the real psychotherapy.

    Well, let’s see. Here we have a divorced woman with a young child who is about to bring into her home a man she has never even met to be her child’s new daddy.

    Does Hallmark make a Congratulations on being a low-class slut! card? ‘Cause I can pick one up for everyone to sign if they do.

    A suggestion, for what it’s worth: the Amish shun those who violate community standards of acceptable behavior. Instead of people squawking and getting all emotional about this, why don’t you all just shun and ignore the offenders? That is what I would do. I’ve had commenters whom I suspected of trolling me before, and I simply ban them and never speak of them again. Why give trolls a bigger platform is my motto. Just my humble two cents.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @SSM, I don’t think that’ll be much of a problem since both Mark and Kate have gone dark on the manosphere as of last weekend. The X-Factor in all of this is Susan Minter, and I’m not sure how she plays in to all of this if it is a troll, she seems legit, but that doesn’t precede Mark and Kate (maybe they’re the same person?) from possibly trolling the manosphere.

    I’m also a bit suspicious that Kate suggested I come to the wedding and how convenient it would be for me since they’re having it in Las Vegas. Besides Vegas being a glaring cliché for a rushed wedding, how does she know I live in Vegas? I don’t, but the only person who’s recently suggested I do was Aunt Giggles:

    hookingupsmart.com/2013/04/04/politics-and-feminism/game-and-cowering-bad-boys/#comment-197533

    However, if you’re going to go online and say incendiary things, you’ve already accepted considerable risk. Let’s take Rollo for example. From his posts, we know that he lives in Las Vegas, has a wife and a 14 year old daughter. He works for a liquor company, and employs “pour girls” at events. He travels internationally, and has shared which countries he has been to recently. The IP address of his computer is readily available. My guess is that for $100 I could hire a PI and out him in half an hour, all based on information he has voluntarily shared. (Alternatively, you could also make the rounds of LV neighborhoods and ask women who is creepily flirting with them at cocktail parties.)

  • Rol

    Troll post would make sense, if a little elaborate, but those are the best ones.

  • BlackPoisonSoul

    @Yep It’s Me:

    With pleasure! This is going to be an interesting spectator sport.

    Is MM gaming GK for a short time until he has had his wicked way with her? Is this a serious affair? Is this a trolling?

    Find out soon in the next drama-dripping excerpt. :P

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