Strength of Interest

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I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

533 comments

  1. Rollo, awesome reading as usual.

    I have one question, regarding a maxim of yours. It’s not quite an Iron Rule, but close.

    (Paraphrasing) There is nothing a woman fears, yet simultaneously turns her on, then a man aware of his own SMV.

    Isn’t there a self-evident caveat here? Doesn’t the man’s SMV have to be, somewhat high in the first place? Seems to me that a loser (who is sadly aware of such) won’t do much with the ladies.

    Perhaps I’m being too binary, but it seems to me this could describe a lot of MGTOW’s.

  2. “That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts.”

    That’s not a sign of intelligence at all.

    “If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.”

    American ‘spherians cannot be expected to unplug from their beloved Hollywood.

    “She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.”

    She could be playing hard to get to make him want her more. If she doesn’t respond within a week, move on. But some women purposely check themselves from responding right away or even same day to not appear desperate or too available or to make you long for them. That’s even a core staple of game and dating advise, not to look too eager and not to respond too fast.

  3. Katy Perry: Jay Leno jaw
    Kate Upton: Used to be cute, but she’s working her way up to plus size model
    Shakira: Already a plus size model – and old

    ” . . . it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts.”

    Just so we’re clear, I do it for humor, because I don’t. Sometimes I just like to get a bit silly, or take a good natured poke.

  4. @BlueEyes, that quote is from The Threat:
    https://therationalmale.com/2012/02/10/the-threat/

    What I’m inferring is that this self-awareness of SMV implies a man Gets It. That’s the threatening part because that awareness means he’s wise to the duplicity of women’s sexual strategy.

    That SMV as an attraction is definitely contextual, but the awareness places a woman into having to play to his dominance if she wants to engage with him.

  5. How can it be considered “faking” it when you are simply deciding that your time/attention is more valuable than someone who won’t put out? This impression that men are simply engaging in “faking” something by selecting for women who were affected by their “sales pitch” (read: Game) is fem-centric to my eyes.

    There’s no faking not being a patient supplicant, you’re either operating under scarcity or not.

  6. “The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt”

    Thank God. Clooney fans are 50 plus and Pitt’s are in their 40s.

    “What I’m inferring is that this self-awareness of SMV implies a man Gets It.”

    He might get it but what that gettin’ is depends on his SMV. A self-aware 5 is not going to get what a self-aware 8 will. There is no 10, male or female. And no amount of self-improvement or game is going to make a 3 into an 8. The vast majority of men are average to below average, 5s and under. Even when a 4 improves every aspect of his life; looks, fitness, money, social skills, etc, he will not be a 9 ever. He will be a 6 which will catapult him from below average to above average. He will then be able to attract average to slightly above average women. Which is good, for him, and a big improvement on his past.

    His “SMV self-awareness” means he’s aware he went from a 4 to a 6. So women who are 4,5 and 6 will respond positively to him.

  7. Speaking of celebs…

    Natalie Portman: Actress Says She Doesn’t Display Oscar Award Because It’s a ‘False Idol’

    “This is lit­er­ally worshipping gold idols — if you worship it. That’s why it’s not displayed on the wall. It’s a false idol,” Portman told The Hollywood Reporter when asked where she kept her Oscar.

    SRSLY?!

  8. @MYG – LMFAO.

    This post is very important digest. The gradients of SMV differences really matter and the intensity of attraction really matters and many men can’t read the signals correctly. This is why I suggested on the last thread in my comments on MGTOW that men who can’t approach or are incels should go after lower SMV women so they can experience what it’s like to be wanted and desired. Once you’ve had that experience, chasing a woman who isn’t interested will seem dumb.

    But there is a bit of a subtlety to this that Rollo commented on, however I’m not sure it jumped off the page so I’ll try and describe how it seems to me. My experience with plates who flake is that some of them circle back around to me at some point. I can’t give percentages but it’s a reasonable number. I’ve developed the ability to deal with flaking with ease now, since i have multiple plates. The 19 yr old I was to see Saturday night flaked on me, and yes she gave me a great reason. She claimed her ex-boyfriend who was in the military showed up to surprise her and begged for a second chance, and felt she needed to give it to him (it was probably BS – I don’t really care). It was interesting because I was pretty interested in this little sweetheart, so I had a moment of the old blue pill feeling come up but somehow I’ve learned to reflexively just turn that shit off and instead to see the situation from a totally selfish perspective, and from that point of view it seems insane to chase. A little mental reminder I use to get back into my frame is something Roger “the rocket” Clemens used to say, “I have to stay within myself to pitch my best”. Very insightful and for some reason remembering that cues me to become selfish again and to be in my frame.

    Up until then, she had been super interested and had actually asked me out. So the last thing I should do is lower my value by getting upset or angry or “trying” to “win” her back over. In fact, I think you can demonstrate high value in how you handle these things – that is if you’ve already set the frame correctly that you are a busy man and that seeing this woman is not the most important thing in your life. My response to H (i’m getting tired of calling her the 19 yr old)? “Oh well. Let me know if your situation changes. Happy trails.”

    My response then and in all these flake situations is always, “Got it, good luck” or “have a nice night” or something very short and pleasant, and then I forget them, and move on to another plate. I think most desirable women are used to guys getting pissed off when they flake so I think my response actually demonstrates some value. I’m also counting on the fact that women are flakes and whatever shiny object has captured their attention will wear out soon enough. My friend Nichole? She stopped seeing me, saying she didn’t want to cheat on her boyfriend with me as it was getting serious. But when he became unreliable and showed his loser colors, despite him being hot (he’s a minor league baseball player), she circled back to me. Just before we had sex, after not seeing each other for almost 3 months, she said, sort of to herself, “Well, it’s not like he’s paying my bills.” I didn’t say a word.

    I don’t think having a “strike rule” is necessary when you have the proper frame. We are smart enough to know when women are lying for the most part, so just use your judgment. But what’s most important is to respect yourself and to serve yourself. A women who flakes is indicating low interest, probably because of some other guy, so why would I chase at that point? I also think burning the bridge doesn’t serve my interests, so I don’t.

    I’m also realistic. The younger women I chase will not have that white hot lust for me that hits them like a ton of bricks, like they will meeting say Tatum Channing. Their whole older man fantasy, based on my version of amused mastery – what I call the “aging rockstar” vibe (I think I’ve fucked at least 30 women in my life just because I play guitar) – is a bit ephemeral and situational for them. They do not want a relationship with me and really, it’s only interesting to them if they are tired of “boys” or just broke up or really don’t want a relationship or do so on a whim. It’s a hazard of the game I play and I’m at the point where I just accept it and roll on.

    But another phase of this occurs when I have sex with them. I am a good, experienced lover with lots of tricks and gambits up my sleeve. I can be dominant or just sensual or even sweet and emotional. I also know how to get women very sexually excited (proof of that is in the wetness – I never used lube to fuck a woman in my life, if they aren’t wet, why are you fucking them?) and have confidence in my ability to do so. At least half of the women I’m with the first time tell me that have problem having an orgasm and I just ignore it, and usually they will get off with me and are surprised. A hint here guys. Be Zen about a woman’s orgasm. Don’t make sex an orgasm contest or put pressure on them to cum, just focus on arousing them and having fun, and it will take care of itself. And if it doesn’t, don’t get bothered by it – this alone sets you apart from many men.

    This kind of behavior sort imprints on them. Now let me be clear – I can’t really take credit for this. It came from an older woman I dated when I when I was 21 – she was 35. The second time we fucked she just said, “Stop” after i started. “You don’t know what you are doing.” I was hurt at first but she pulled me up short and said, “Don’t get hurt. I bet nobody has ever taught you about sex.” Barbara was her name and I’ve often given her credit when a woman comments on my ability to get them worked up. She was an incredibly perverted nymphomaniac who gave me my first driving blowjob – from Waco to almost all the way to Austin – as I was having hard time completing while I was driving. She was so dirty, she told me to drive up next to a truck so the driver could see what she was doing. She taught me a million things about how women tick sexually and all I can say is that I wish such a thing on every man. She was so horny that sometimes she would sneakily masturbate in the passenger seat while I was driving. I remember the first time I caught her doing that I was shocked. Today, wow, well today it would just make me smile.

    I think this is why they circle back sometimes. According to some young women I’ve known, many young men these days are kind of ruined by porn and seem to be acting out some set piece they see in a video or are almost like acting or something, and have no idea how to get a women worked up. This is a huge advantage, and I think really good sex almost imprints you on a woman. So I say there are other ways to amp up the sexual attraction once they are in your web. While I’m sure I’m not the “alpha” these women will later mourn, I know for a fact some just come back for more cuz their options have changed again, and I’m fine with that.

  9. Great stuff.

    ” For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light. ”

    Crucial point because as you’ve stated, the near constant rejection can take it’s toll and most likely is not a true indicator of who the man really is.

    Rejection takes a heavy toll on some guys and it directly affects how they carry themselves, how they speak and interact with women, and how they think of themselves.

    You control how you perceive yourself. It’s not impossible.

    You always hear how women love “confidence “. Well, do what you need to do to build confidence within yourself. The 1st benefit is to you. The side benefit is that women may have more interest.

    I used to work with a guy years ago, who would hit on every woman he saw. No anything over the top, but flirting…if that’s what men can call it. Finally after months of watching him, I asked him why was he so relentless? I didn’t see anything particularly special about him. Average height, average dress, average car…just average.

    He said that he gets phone numbers every day. For every 10 numbers he got, 5 or 6 would materialize into dates. Out of 5 dates, 2 would end up with sex.

    I laughed and told him that’s not too bad. Seemed like a lot of work though. He said that it was a lot of work and that for the work put in he should be getting better results. I asked him what more did he expect and I remember his reply –

    ” It’s not what I expect, it’s what I deserve..”.

    I laughed at that and thought it crazy that he felt that his average ass deserved things. But that’s just it, he didn’t see himself as average. That made the difference.

    He was rejection-proof. Rejection just fueled him.

    Perception, on both male and females part, is a powerful thing.

  10. “… will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.”

    Makes me think of this for some reason …

    Dear Eloise, I am writing to say
    A number of funny things I heard today.
    I heard that he left you and ran off to sea …
    Could be the best thing that happened to me.
    (The Hollies; 1967)

    Seems to be the story of the man who wasn’t brutish thinking he could replace the man who was.

  11. MYG: “SRSLY?!”

    She’s Jewish. Read the Old Testament, or just watch The Ten Commandments. You could also do a net search on “Jewish Art”, of which there is very little and almost entirely restricted to non-representational designs on sacramental items.

    You’ll find similar in Islam and Christianity from the period in which they still took the OT seriously.

  12. ” He might get it but what that gettin’ is depends on his SMV. A self-aware 5 is not going to get what a self-aware 8 will. There is no 10, male or female. And no amount of self-improvement or game is going to make a 3 into an 8 ”

    I disagree ( surprise!!! ).

    I think it’s absolutely possible for a self aware 5 to get what a self aware 8 ” gets “. It’s not an easy road to travel, but it’s doable. Positively.

    The ” 10 ” male or female is subjective. Many people have their idea of a 10, and the perception is what counts.

    Really? No amount of self improvement or game is going to make a 3 into an 8? You really believe that?

    Unless there is some kind of genetic abnormality, I believe every man has the potential ( unrealized, untapped ) to drastically increase his SMV.

    You speak often from a femcentric point of view. The man-hate is strong in you. It’s nonsense to say the vast majority of men are 5’s and under. Why, I was out in public today and that was not what I saw. Maybe you live somewhere where men are in horrible condition. Sure, we got a weight thing going on, but 5″s? Nah. Not buying it.

    Sound like you rate your fellow men ( if you are a man… I wonder) like a bitchy, fat chick would.

  13. @Glenn

    This is why I suggested on the last thread in my comments on MGTOW that men who can’t approach or are incels should go after lower SMV women so they can experience what it’s like to be wanted and desired. Once you’ve had that experience, chasing a woman who isn’t interested will seem dumb.

    Totally valid suggestion, at the very least for learning to do exactly what you referred to further down: learning to turn chicks on. I’ve spent a lot of my adult life in the minor leagues of 4s and 5s figuring out sex and seeing several times what it’s like to have a woman really in to me despite my not being really in to her.

    The one caution I would give with that strategy however: don’t let it last as long as I did. You spend long enough in that bracket, it really fucks with your head and you start to believe that’s all you’re going to attract. Maybe you really are fuck ugly and useless and boring and blah blah blah…

    When I was going after the less hot chicks, the 3 strikes rule worked fine. Some times first or second date, always by third I was getting laid. If it ain’t happening, she ain’t digging you. Managed to 3 date a couple HB7s at one point as well, but one decided after the fact that she had a 3 month rule and we were going forward with that. We didn’t go forward. I didn’t hear from her again after I nexted her.

    Realize that as you learn to build attraction with the hotter chicks if you don’t see the interest level you did from less attractive chicks, NEXT without hesitation. It really isn’t worth dealing with a chick who feels obligated to be around you.

  14. @Jeremy

    There’s no faking not being a patient supplicant, you’re either operating under scarcity or not.

    Agreed. I don’t see it as “faking it” either. I see it as the first step to enlightened self-interest: realizing the value of your own time.

  15. @Sun,

    To quote Patrice O’neal, Halle Berry’s pussy is no different than the cashier chick at the McDonalds down the street. I miss Patrice something awful.

    I always advise men to go for the lower hanging fruit to build confidence and prowess. There’s minor differences in the anatomy of a 5 and an 8. Unless the 5 is 250 pounds that is. The biggest difference is perception and how you feel about a 5 vs. an 8.

    Never get down over boning 5″s and 6″s. Good idea not to stay there too long, but the bottom line is, is it better to sit around with blue balls and an extremely dry penis waiting for the 8 to give up the goods, or tis it better to bang while the banging’s good to keep in practice?

  16. For consideration based on my observation.

    Actors and famous guys are generally situational alphas, not apex. Like most wealthy businessmen, cops, soldiers, on and on.

    True apex alphas you meet once a year if you are lucky and you WILL know it.

  17. … okay, Halle Berry isn’t what she used to be, and this may qualify as Rollo’s apex fallacy, but I always like the line from Patrice.

  18. “A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

    If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. ”

    It comes off like a pipe dream because sane, normal people don’t act like that. We understand that we are ordinary and flawed, and our would be partners are also ordinary and flawed.

    Its one thing to have a healthy self-esteem congruent with one’s actual achievements in life, but these delusions of fictional characters grandeur is a whole other ball of wax.

  19. ” I’ve spent a lot of my adult life in the minor leagues of 4s and 5s figuring out sex and seeing several times what it’s like to have a woman really in to me despite my not being really in to her.

    The one caution I would give with that strategy however: don’t let it last as long as I did. You spend long enough in that bracket, it really fucks with your head and you start to believe that’s all you’re going to attract. Maybe you really are fuck ugly and useless and boring and blah blah blah…”

    – Could it be you aren’t fugly or useless or boring but you are an ordinary, every day, average to slightly below average man who found a happy and willing equal to share affection, intimacy and quality time with and that’s a ……. good thing?

  20. @Blaximus

    Unless the 5 is 250 pounds that is.

    No woman pushing 250 is a HB5. She might have the potential to be a HB5 if she lost the weight but if you’re overweight, automatic maximum HB4 status. Obese? Automatic HB1.

    I got no time for LWBHs. Every guy should rule them out; no woman ever changes for the better after she’s with you. She’ll always see it as a chance to get worse. After all, she already snagged your ass, why does she need to keep trying? Steer clear of women that make you think “Well if she would just change this…” she won’t. Ever. Move on, good sir. Move on.

  21. – Could it be you aren’t fugly or useless or boring but you are an ordinary, every day, average to slightly below average man who found a happy and willing equal to share affection, intimacy and quality time with and that’s a ……. good thing?

    Behold: the typical response of a feminized blue pill that doesn’t understand the components of male attractiveness to women OR that most of those components can be improved through effort. Don’t be that guy.

  22. “It’s nonsense to say the vast majority of men are 5’s and under.”

    Five is average and the vast majority of people hover around average, that’s why its an “average”.

    Average is not bad at all. You can look at it as cup half empty or half full. Many people lead content and happy lives as averages. Game can improve our lives but it can’t work miracles. There are a lot of guys out here for whom it won’t work at all, like my extreme aspie and OCD friends whom I tried to help to no avail.

    For the “normal” guy, it can help, sometimes an awful lot, but it cannot work miracles.

  23. Rollo – “This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.”

    Being from a different generation, where the women were sexual, but for their image, most played hard to get, seduction was an art form. We men expected to have to push by their flaking. To have to prove our worth to get the bang. To make it appear that we seduced them, so they could hold their head up and not be called a slut.

    I would sometimes pursue women whom I knew had no interest in me at all because they were a challenge. If I got the bang, it was an achievement. And since we men had to put forth some type of exertion to get the bang, a long pursuit was not thought to be a waste of time.

    I see now that with the mantra that women can bang whenever and whomever they want, that the shame of being a slut is almost gone, that the art form of seduction is no longer viable. It is far superior to next and move on, as there is no real need to pursue anymore. Either she bangs you or she doesn’t.

    Hmmm

  24. ” Don’t be that guy.”

    OK! But only if you don’t be the guy who fills a sorry bastard’s head with fantasies that he’s going to become Super Man and consistently bed down a rotation of multiple Wonder Womans from now til he croaks.

    Much of PUAism is snake oil salesmanship.

  25. “Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order.”

    Ahhh, yep.

    They call it conditioning for a reason; it puts you in a certain condition, creating like a well worn groove in your life. They otherwise call that a rut.

    I’m stuck there.

    I make, am making, forward movement, sure, and advances, but a Prince?

    Even with Red Pill lenses on my eyes, even when I realize I was attracting women more than I knew when I was LESS TOGETHER in all sorts of ways and was just clueless…

    Well, those lenses can only do so much. They at once show you how much potential was/is within you, but that is merely a vision. Making it a reality within you?

    Easier said than done, particularly while trying to do LTR Game. It really seems at times it would be easier being single and rebuilding oneself.

  26. “He said that he gets phone numbers every day. For every 10 numbers he got, 5 or 6 would materialize into dates. Out of 5 dates, 2 would end up with sex.

    I laughed and told him that’s not too bad. Seemed like a lot of work though. He said that it was a lot of work and that for the work put in he should be getting better results. I asked him what more did he expect and I remember his reply –

    ” It’s not what I expect, it’s what I deserve..”.

    I laughed at that and thought it crazy that he felt that his average ass deserved things. But that’s just it, he didn’t see himself as average. That made the difference.”

    – Yeah but he wasn’t getting what he thought he deserved, “He said that it was a lot of work and that for the work put in he should be getting better results.”

    He was getting what he actually deserved, though he didn’t think so.

    His results were congruent with an average man putting in a lot of work to get numbers. This goes back to my original Tao of Assortive Mating 101.

    You can’t reverse universal laws.

  27. Somebody explain to me why empathetic, rational, justice-oriented, women of good character who do not want to use a man for his resources but who simply wants to love and be loved are being passed up for baby mamas looking for a beta provider for their kids with previous men?

    Shouldn’t the child-free good beta men be pairing up with the child-free good beta women so that they can together create a family of their own?

    Why are these men going for baby mamas?

    Sort of flies in the face of your Tao of Assortive Mating 101 (also a fallacy trotted out by Aunt Giggles).

    You want to know why Beta chumps pair off with baby-mommas? Because there are so many “average” men with “below average” impressions of their self-worth, and there are so many women with overblown perceptions of their own SMV.

    Only a mindset steeped in fem-centrism would be worried about men thinking too much of themselves. Women’s overblown egos and sense of self can’t stand the idea of men thinking they might actually deserve better than fucking the next baby-momma because he thought better of himself.

    And yeah, Aunt Giggles trots that out a lot too.

  28. Blaximus, “I think it’s absolutely possible for a self aware 5 to get what a self aware 8 ” gets “.

    I concede it might be possible. How many have you seen? At most they would be outliers.

  29. “Sort of flies in the face of your Tao of Assortive Mating 101 ”

    Yeah Rollo I’ve already stated the baby mama thing trips me up. I do think those smart “nice” beta men with good jobs “deserve” a child free woman. But one thing is that a few of those baby mamas are at least 2 points higher than their beta hubbies in looks. And one is 10 years younger than one hubbie and another one is 22 years younger!

  30. It comes off like a pipe dream because sane, normal people don’t act like that. We understand that we are ordinary and flawed, and our would be partners are also ordinary and flawed.

    Reverse the sexes in the ‘Prince’ paragraph you quoted and you have the expectations of an “average” woman today.

  31. ” . . . my original Tao of Assortive Mating 101 . . .”

    . . . is pretty far out there on the autistic spectrum.

    People do not match like socks, they mesh like machine parts – and some machines are pretty fucked up.

  32. @MYG,

    All of your expertise on SMV would be a lot more realistic

    IF;

    1.Everyone was physically fit

    2. No one had passports.

    Then the male 5’s get female 5’s etc and all is fair. Female 5’s could be seen in the nude without inducing potentially fatal bouts of spastic vomiting in some befuddled American male 5 (likely fit, well-employed, decent, non-alcoholic, iotw an international 8).

    As it is, a female 8 in the US is simply someone who’s not addicted to high fructose corn syrup and can be seen in a bikini. The mismatch (in international terms) between a male 5 and a female 5 in the US is egregious. The fact that so many are unaware of this is about the most amazing thing about the country to me—The naivety in regards to how seriously the men outclass the women.

    But due to the overwhelming physical sickness of obesity in American females and the fact that men are waking up to the superiority of foreign women over Mandy, Brooke and Kayla (over there at the buffet), your take needs A LOT of calibration.

  33. @Signor

    2. No one had passports.

    Hahah, globalism undermines the American Sexual Market Place. I love it.

    The naivety in regards to how seriously the men outclass the women.

    I wouldn’t call it naivete. I would call it a concerted effort to keep them in the dark.

    Over 80% of men get rated below average by women, meanwhile men rate women on a bell curve. I wonder why men view themselves so horribly in this country.

  34. Great post. The whole “3 Strikes Rule”…yes it has to be about YOUR mindset….you can’t punish someone who doesn’t care about you…

    Also, some girls want you to chase them because it boosts their flagging self-esteem. So they turn you down or say they’re busy and sometimes that’s a lack of interest, other times it’s about trying to get you to chase….

    I look not only at the response but the history I have with that girl. If this is a girl I don’t know, who has displayed some interest and is “busy” I may re-open. If it’s a girl I’ve been seeing or an ex gf and she says that…I drop it.

    context is king here. Calibration is crucial for honing your intuitive skills to be able to decipher a vague response from a socially inept but possibly interested girl from a bitch.

    I look back on my last year. I banged 16 girls last year and 5 this year….in some cases the girl initially said no. I followed up a few weeks later and got the ball rolling again and did bang them.

    After some experience in understanding the nuances: how quickly did she reply with “I’m busy”? Was it within the hour—possibly sincere….was it super fast….possibly a blow off.

    It’s more art than science here. I try not to project my own “What would I do if a chick contacted me?” and look more at the girl’s personality, age, my initial interaction, my history with her as benchmarks.

    A girl who gets angry with me for something…if I leave it…then usually she comes back…eventually. At that point I may have forgotten our conflict but you can bet she hasn’t.

    Thinking like a girl….being more intuitive, figuring out what the little things mean like a detective reads clues. This for me has been a skill that has helped my game.

  35. Signor Falafel, aren’t there just as many obese American men as there women now? I agree with you wholeheartedly that foreigners are more attractive.

    “I think it’s absolutely possible for a self aware 5 to get what a self aware 8 ”

    This makes me think of Tariq Nasheed’s show where he talks about cats rolling in poppin their collars and acting like they’re all that with a 300 pound woman on their arm. LOL!!!!

    If peacocking and delusions of SMV grandeur worked, those guys would have dimes on their arms.

  36. ” . . . aren’t there just as many obese American men as there women now?”

    Exactly which part of “There is no male Anna Nicole Smith, or female Hugh Hefner” do you not get?

  37. @blaximus
    “He was rejection-proof. Rejection just fueled him.”

    I am going to keep this in mind from now on.

    @Sun wukong
    “realizing the value of your own time.”
    Yeah that’s true confidence and self respect.

    @tilikum
    “True apex alphas you meet once a year if you are lucky and you WILL know it.”

    That is what makes this place so fucking interesting.

    @Seraph
    “It really seems at times it would be easier being single and rebuilding oneself.”

    It’s what I am doing now

    @walawala
    “At that point I may have forgotten our conflict but you can bet she hasn’t.
    Thinking like a girl….being more intuitive, figuring out what the little things mean like a detective reads clues. This for me has been a skill that has helped my game.”

    I see a lot of that here in DC

    @Glenn
    Hey this is me now dealing with all of myself.

  38. “Exactly which part of “There is no male Anna Nicole Smith, or female Hugh Hefner” do you not get?”

    The first part. Because I know 5 male Smiths. My brother is one.

  39. Rollo,

    A request please: ” fucking the next baby-momma”

    A post on this please., it’s an epidemic

  40. ” My brother is one.”

    Post a link to one of his better known photo shoots.
    How much did he net after the old bat died and the lawsuits were settled?

  41. Glad somebody else figured out that MYG is a woman.

    Waiting for people to figure out that @Lone really isn’t all that bad either; just has a big mouth and has a problem articulating his beliefs.

    Beliefs such as: @DeNihilist

    “I see now that with the mantra that women can bang whenever and whomever they want, that the shame of being a slut is almost gone, that the art form of seduction is no longer viable. It is far superior to next and move on, as there is no real need to pursue anymore. Either she bangs you or she doesn’t.”

    So I think where I and @Lone are coming from is that our “Nexting” rules are very abrupt. Call it a One-Next-Rule. I interact with a woman and get the “self-entitled-cunt” vibe and its NEXT.

    Now given the current state of our society, just a hypothetical question: How do you think that is working out for me ?

    Me: “Hi”, Her: shit test. Me: NEXT !

    Over and over and over and over. 100 times, 1000 times, 10,000 times.

    As Roosh said, you gotta be a Clown and kiss ass. Wear a wig, wear a hat, dress outlandish, dance, entertain, get tats, ride a Harley, lie, deceive, manipulate, act mean, act aloof, do “Game”, over and over and over.

    Only to be shit on anyway. The 3 rule next, becomes 2 rule next, becomes 1 rule next.

    Which eventually becomes … there aren’t any non-fat decent women left … even trying to find one is a huge waste of time.

    Which becomes … I’m still male and I’m still horny and I got cash in my pocket … so seeing an Escort becomes a very enticing option.

    TLDR Summary:
    3 strike rule, becomes 2 strike rule, becomes 1 strike rule
    1 strike rule implies 0 odds of success of ever finding a female for sex
    if you want sex and have $$$, Escorts take your odds from 0% to 100%
    conclusion: given the current state of women: 95% of men better learn to be celibate, castrate yourself or if you have $$$, then see an escort.

  42. Some good quotes in there. I know it took a long time for me to learn what a quality woman is, and this only comes with time, experience and effort(many men lack one or more of the above). Men should experience a woman head over heals for them at least once..it will make it impossible to settle for anything else. When she breaks all the rules for you..goes out of her way just to surprise or please you..you realize how its time well spent finding, and inspiring a girl like her. And when the hot boring chick blows you off, its like water off a ducks back because you know her true value.

  43. Glenn, “I think this is why they circle back sometimes. According to some young women I’ve known, many young men these days are kind of ruined by porn and seem to be acting out some set piece they see in a video or are almost like acting or something, and have no idea how to get a women worked up. This is a huge advantage, and I think really good sex almost imprints you on a woman.”

    I’m dating a 24 year old right now and she says all the dudes her age are porn addicts and are horrible in bed. Quality sex imprints on everyone.

    Mantak Chia FTW.

  44. Nathan

    May 7th, 2015 at 12:13 am

    Rollo,

    A request please: ” fucking the next baby-momma”. A post on this please., it’s an epidemic
    _______________________________________

    You missed my posts about good betas with solid jobs wifing up baby mamas who had kids by jobless loafers? There are so many single moms out there, many who’ve never been married, that it has totally skewed the SMP for everyone. And they are like predators when they’re looking for a husband and father figure for their kids. I think some of these betas wife them up simply because their SMP equals, the child free women, are just not as assertive and overt as the baby mamas in going after men.

  45. ” . . .they are like predators when they’re looking for a husband and father figure . . . ”

    Q.E.D.

  46. MYG has a vagina.

    Only someone with a vagina would respond to the idea of men having self-confidence with thinly veiled fear of it, veiled by flowery notions of all humans being “equally flawed”.

    It is sadly trite how females respond to arguments for male confidence with notions of all humans being imperfect… and arguments for female confidence with, “You Go Girl!”

    Such behavior makes me question whether women are capable of using human language *without* shit-testing the opposite sex while doing so.

  47. lmao @ assortive mating
    How many average woman you think truly see themselves as average ?

  48. “MYG has a vagina.”

    The question I’m holding open is whether it acquired at birth or at Yale.

  49. ” veiled by flowery notions of all humans being “equally flawed”.

    Oh bugger off. I never said that because I don’t believe in equality of men in the first place..

    “It is sadly trite how females respond to arguments for male confidence with notions of all humans being imperfect… and arguments for female confidence with, “You Go Girl!”

    Yeah? Quote me mofo!

    I’m against setting men up for more failure and depression. Game works for many men who need it (I never did) but it doesn’t work for men who are seriously flawed with mental disorders like extreme aspies, manic depressives, ADHDs, OCDs, Turrets and others, which are a non-trivial % of young men today. Young men who I’ve personally extended my hand to in friendship, unlike you.

  50. Rocket, not a belief, just trying to understand the SM of today’s youth. My prime years were in the 70’s, just as the sexual revolution was taking off. Disco and all. But, the women back then, even though you could bang them, still made you work for it, mostly. If you used the rules of today, as in the 3 strike rule, you would only be banging all out sluts. We had to work for the pussy. But the thing was, the pussy was available, not like my fathers generation who had to marry to get pussy.

    It was more seduction then, it appears, then just going through numbers to get a bang.

    I find this interesting.

  51. william

    May 7th, 2015 at 12:54 am

    lmao @ assortive mating
    How many average woman you think truly see themselves as average ?
    ____________________

    That’s the problem with baby mamas in the SMP. 50 years ago they would not have been in the SMP. Today they are front and center and merely because they might be a thin 7 in looks, think they’re a catch. And men are proving them right every day by wifing them up. So yeah, there’s a reason why average women and even baby mamas have overinflated egos.

  52. @myg
    “she says all the dudes her age are porn addicts and are horrible in bed.”

    Thank may be true but how would you change that without pointing it out?

    It’s hard to change sometimes without someone pointing out how it could benefit you to do so. It’s how I stop using porn and starting approaching. Not sure how old you are but I still at 27 feel at times as if I am 16
    And just as ignorant at what to do in bed.
    https://vimeo.com/73900339
    Blue pill 16 rugby

  53. @Mad Yale Grad

    And no amount of self-improvement or game is going to make a 3 into an 8.

    You are substantially incorrect. Any man can find a way to win. I’m a natural 2 and growing up girls treated me like I had leprosy. During high school I had the lowest SMV in my friend group by a mile. But I raised myself up and married an SMV 8. My wife is intelligent, good looking and dependable. If you count dating we’ve been together for 25+ years and today she is solidly in the top 1% of women her age (43).

    I may never turn a single woman’s head. But thankfully my SMV isn’t attached to my looks.

  54. @MYG

    “The vast majority of men are average to below average, 5s and under. Even when a 4 improves every aspect of his life; looks, fitness, money, social skills, etc, he will not be a 9 ever. He will be a 6 which will catapult him from below average to above average. He will then be able to attract average to slightly above average women. Which is good, for him, and a big improvement on his past. ”

    The problem: it only applies to men.

    A woman’s SMV (or her perception of her SMV) is ridiculous. You have average to slightly above average women (5s and 6s) walking around as if they are the top class (8s and 9s). The only real work (improvement) is expected by the man (as usual) where as the woman can be “as is” and her over inflated ego tells her the man (a 5 or 6) isn’t good enough (she shouldn’t settle). The idea of “settling” has to be the worst idea ever introduced to women.

    I’ve seen plenty of these “average” looking women out (usually overweight because our society now give them a pass to “just be you”). The problem is their expectations (of the man) are still pretty high. I’ve seen this countless times where a fat woman will expect the admiration of a tall, good looking man. You can only laugh when you see it.

  55. “That convinces me, MYG is a woman. Likely one of the few commentors Aunt Giggles allows on HUS.”

    I called it first! How’s about a Scooby snack? 😛

  56. I’m not 100% convinced MYG has a hairy vulva. It could be a very clever fem-troll or, he is so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that he will fight to protect it.

  57. You could laugh, if it weren’t so sad. There is no way in today’s society of pandering to women through fat acceptance or whatever they call it to knock them off their pedestal. It’s like the media and politics found a way to infect women with NPD. How could it happen and more importantly, cui bono?
    Is it just to fuel consumerism or am I missing something?

  58. ” . . .cui bono?”

    Those who think of us as their herd.

    “Is it just to fuel consumerism . . .”

    Consumerism is a tool, not the end.

  59. 1 strike rule; for me that’s about respect. She crosses a certain line and it’s done.

    However the counter to flaking etc ain’t a three strike rule. The answer is spin more plates. Do your best to have three to five chicks lined up for the same day/ weekend. at that point why give a fuck if one or even four flake?

    It is also a good way to deal with the reality you are one of her plates, and likely not her favorite plate. Catch, release, and re catch as BV would say

    Cannot line up three chicks for one weekend? Fuck that. Tell your self you cannot line up three chicks for one weekend…. for the now

    And I’d like.to double down on what Glen said; single mom’s etc are target practice when you are starting out, but never bang them more then three times in a row so they cannot get their mental hooks in you.

    I dated a model in Hawaii who got a lot of work to stand around and have her photo taken with actors and what not. She said the actors where all pretty dead in real life, while the athletes where much more alive and a bigger draw. Not sure what that’s worth, one girl’s observation and all.

    I have the adhd on crank. It has been a foundation of my success. Course I had to find the right areas to be successful in. Generally speaking, the higher risk/ higher the intensity level the better to zero me in. School, office work etc would kill me and I sucked at school and struggled for a long time with the admin/ logistics side of my job until I could do it on autopilot

  60. Rollo,
    Good post. Broadly applicable. Specific situations almost always devolve into analysis about specific actors in that situation. Which means always moving the conversation from the overall point.

    Parables serve a useful purpose, I suppose, but Jesus spoke vaguely and did not specifically mention King Herod or the Gracchi Brothers or anything else that would distract from his message.

    General message? Women screen aggressively. If a man actually passes through those filters, she will aggressively pursue. If she’s putting up or more screens or filters, she doesn’t think of you as a Prince.

    Which is okay. None of us is going to be a Prince to everyone.

    Don’t expect me to give up the damn personal anecdotes, though, they’re just too damn interesting!

    MYG,
    Ever see the First Star Wars?
    “Stay on target….stay on target…”

    Young men who I’ve personally extended my hand to in friendship, unlike you.

    Dammit, and you were doing so well.
    You must know the guys here are pretty much immune to internet-shaming, right?

  61. ” . . . the actors where all pretty dead in real life, while the athletes where much more alive and a bigger draw.”

    Actors pretend to chop wood – athletes get the wood chopped.

  62. @Sun – Ain’t it nice to not be talking about politics? Lol. Spot on, and indeed I never did aim down. As I’ve said here, I was lucky when I was in my prime to be quite good looking. In fact, I’ve only had two sexual encounters with fat women in my life – both drunk out of my gourd.

    But I just want to make sure you also get that you and I may be very different from other guys on this thread. They need to build up some confidence and experience and also just get off the schneid if they are incels.

    @ Blaximus – Just great stuff. As I read your comments i was reminded of how shocking it was at first for me to get that women were responding to their own base desires. And I then assumed they were like men in how they are attracted. But in fact, while of course looks are important, I see them as more of a threshold issue for a man with real value. Social dominance is a vaginal lubricant, I can’t tell you how many times the hottest women in a social group I was in (usually work) would eventually come around to me, even if some 6’2″ quarterback type was initially her interest.

    Women’s attraction is not like male attraction. We are primed to be ready to go at the drop of a hat. Another key point is to notice whether they are attracted or not – for me, that is key. I also realize their attraction is ephemeral and flighty so in a sense, it doesn’t mean so much to me anymore. I see it more like information. And doing the “amused mastery” thing means they signal me, not the reverse. While the 19 yr old flaked, I got her to ask me out by saying, “I’m not sure about this and the whole age difference.” Gotta keep the fantasy going.

    @Rugby – That Nike video is great. And it gets right at where I’m at in my RP journey. I have been unwilling to see myself as a Princes. I have been attached to the version of me that was cynical, angry and beaten down. Now? Fuck him. I’m not only going to leave him behind, I’m going to shoot him in the fucking head. He’s my enemy – my Blue Pill self.

    Am hitting the gym full force now. Had my first all out, no holding back, leave it all on the floor workout last night. My trainer is supersetting me like mad and i just went animal at it. Felt so good. And I can see a better me emerging.

    Re: MYG – Women or not, who cares? He’s spouting nonsense – any man who wants to be powerful and successful and “someone” on this world would be well advised to just skip his drivel as I do. Also, if this is just trolling, than stop feeding the troll.

  63. “I’m not sure about this and the whole age difference.”

    I would advise that rather than bringing up the age difference (which does work if in your frame) you bring up the maturity difference. The younger the girl, the harder she will feel compelled to prove that she is all growed up.

  64. @ SFC Ton

    True that.

    In my business, I have a one strike rule because I can. If you don’t turn up for work (flake) because you had a better offer, that’s it – you’re off my books. I won’t call you again unless I am very very desperate. No lame excuses (I’ve heard them all) – As a man you’re accountable for your actions, and most guys know and accept that’s how (the work game) is.

    The analogy to females and dating are eerily similar.

  65. Celebrities are an interesting topic. I have a firm belief that women retain their interest in certain men, especially when their influence occurs early in the woman’s dating experience. Men who rock her emotionally early on (mainly the alpha males she dates) will always keep her interest at a very high level. Her interest stays at a medium level for men she has a “crush” on. Celebrities and certain boys in high school are the ones who sit at this level. She never gets that intense interest in them as she would for an alpha male who rocked her emotions, but she never completely loses interest in them. This is why musicians like Bon Jovi maintain high attendance at his concerts. Not only that, social proof comes into play. If lots of (older) women love him, then younger women will follow.

  66. @DeNihilist

    “Rocket, not a belief, just trying to understand the SM of today’s youth. My prime years were in the 70’s, just as the sexual revolution was taking off. Disco and all. But, the women back then, even though you could bang them, still made you work for it, mostly. If you used the rules of today, as in the 3 strike rule, you would only be banging all out sluts. We had to work for the pussy. But the thing was, the pussy was available, not like my fathers generation who had to marry to get pussy.”

    Yes I understand what you’re getting at; I’m a little younger than you but understood the dynamic back then. There are 2 big differences in today’s market. One is the quality of women has declined dramatically. They have lost the desire to be Feminine or act Feminine. Fat, gross, tatted out, demanding, yada, yada, yada. Just plain delusional; most of them. You are now having to work just as hard (or harder) when the end result is barely worth pursuing; and that is being very selective in who you even choose to pursue.

    The second part is the lack of respect that women give men. Put bluntly, in today’s society the vast majority of women treat men like garbage. I honestly am amazed at the behavior I seen in women. Some have called it “feral” as now that the restrictions have been removed, then act like animals.

    The lack of respect is the real deal killer for me. As you said, men have always had to work and compete to get quality women. But while we were doing that there were social mores and rules that women had to abide by; no longer. Now they can do anything they want and what they do is disrespect men. Why would a man choose to compete for a fat, worn out slut, who treats him like shit ? I know, I won’t; I don’t want or need pussy that bad.

    And that is where the choice to see escorts comes from. Yes, I still want sex but I refuse to be treated like garbage in order to get it. Not saying escorts win any prize in treating men with respect either; but they know if the shit on you enough you will take your money elsewhere. So it works to a degree.

  67. @Mad Yale Grad

    Yeah? Quote me mofo!

    “A Prince’s time is valuable…

    If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. ”

    It comes off like a pipe dream because sane, normal people don’t act like that. We understand that we are ordinary and flawed, and our would be partners are also ordinary and flawed.

    Let the record show…Rollo makes an allegory to help men who have been taught nothing but deference to what women want their entire life see a justification for behaviors that are self-respectful, and MYG attempts to pee all over it from a standing position, implying that men should simply keep their flaws in mind. Only a female would be so fearful of male self-esteem to that degree. I’ve spoken to psychologists, both while they were paid to speak to me, and socially, they would never tell someone to not assert themselves like you seem to.

    In fairness, you did try to justify your perspective:

    I’m against setting men up for more failure and depression. Game works for many men who need it (I never did) but it doesn’t work for men who are seriously flawed with mental disorders like extreme aspies, manic depressives, ADHDs, OCDs, Turrets and others

    Says who? You? This is an intellectual forum… Citations or GTFO.

  68. On strength of interest, a 55 year old woman sexually assaulted kissed a younger good looking guy during the Boston Marathon, based on a dare from her daughter. Imagine flipping the genders.

    The daughter took to media to find Prince Charming, but heard back only from his wife who said of the kisser, “I greatly admire your spunk and courage” and “our friends have gotten a lot of mileage out of this story and I have thoroughly enjoyed watching them give my husband grief!” Dreadful wife but happy.

  69. LOL w/ Stuttie, I view pretty much all of life thru the lenses of my professional training so everything is a tactical or strategic objective with a cost/ bend it analyze

    I reckon most men have trained themselves to think a certain way/ see the world a certain which is reinforced by that man’s level of success….. wow that steers way to far into the theological for me

  70. RE: One strike rule

    Sometimes its best to discern when a girl is dangling the string.

    Que Ya\Really

  71. @Glenn, Blaximus, Rocket, Jeremy, kfg, Liz, Stuttie,

    RE:MYG

    Glenn,

    Hear you loud and clear….Don’t feed the troll! (just scroll) It always seems to circle back to being a butt-hurt chick jealous of baby mammas…

  72. @Mad Yale Grad

    And no amount of self-improvement or game is going to make a 3 into an 8.

    Human trainwreck Steve-O dramatically raised his SMV with fame. He talked about this on the Stern show. He went from a guy who girls wouldn’t make eye contact with and fat girls rejected to a guy that models wanted. He said the amazing switch took place over a 24 hour period when JackAss broke big nationwide. Zero to hero literally overnight.

  73. Besides being ego-protection, apex fallacy is just more proof that men are the “romantic” sex, no?

    “If she just knew the real me, she would see I am as good or better than Clooney!”

    What is this, some sort of romance novel? Are you waiting for that one perfect girl to come and rescue you? The one girl that truly understands, and accepts, you and your darkest innermost feels?

    Barf.

    Some will say that you only get that level of love from your mother. I even disagree with that. My mother raised me to be a good little beta provider, and showered me with love. She is also the first one to say, “man up!” and get disgusted if I whine about something.

    I have two grade-school aged daughters. Both are very pretty…and very popular. (their mom has a very high smv)

    Neither of them can stand the little boys that orbit them. But the boys that don’t? The one’s that act aloof and tease them? The confident boys that act like they are the prize? They get orbited by my daughters. They are also very close to the most popular boys in their class.

    Want proof that the red pill and game, smv and all that are true? Just watch little kids. (although, this starts changing at about 8 years of age)

  74. Steve-O on Howard Stern. Watch the first 90 seconds if you can. Keep in mind that super attractive women are throwing themselves at him. Men can blow up their SMV like a pufferfish with wealth or fame. Anyone who says otherwise hasn’t been paying attention.

  75. Chick I knew in highschool (sat next to her in band but normally kind of ignored her) later became a well known model (several times on the cover of Cosmo, Vogue, etc). After my first year of college, she meets up with a buddy of mine who was friends with her and we’re talking about her jet-setting about now that she’s modeling.

    This was around 97 or so, and DiCaprio was big of Titanic still and had apparently been trying to hook up with her but she fucking hated him when she met him. Couldn’t stand him, wasn’t having it. So she’s in the middle of telling this story, and I look at her for a moment… and say “You turned down DiCaprio? We should go out next weekend.” She grinned and said “Sure!”

    Unfortunately I was too much of a pussy to get the pussy out of the deal, but don’t buy the apex fallacy. I quite literally got a date with a chick DiCaprio couldn’t get when I was a self-hating Blue Pill as fuck 19 year old scrub. Better Game and I coulda fucked her. Solid HB9.

  76. @ Sun Wukong
    I quite literally got a date with a chick DiCaprio couldn’t get when I was a self-hating Blue Pill as fuck 19 year old scrub.

    So awesome! From a strictly economic standpoint that HB9 made a rational decision. Although you aren’t a Hollywood star you might be upwardly mobile and also willing to commit. To most women that’s worth a lot more than a few dozen hookups with a guy like DiCaprio that she can’t lock down. Semen, even Alpha semen is the cheapest substance on Planet Earth. For most women an LTR has to at least be a possibility to keep things interesting.

    For reference this is the chick that billionaire Arnold Schwarzenegger was banging. Plus Arnold Junior. Even the top Alphas have to cast a very wide net when they go looking for easy sex.

  77. @stuttie
    “or, he is so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that he will fight to protect it.”
    Yeah that used an maybe still is a sick part of me…
    “As a man you’re accountable for your actions, and most guys know and accept that’s how (the work game) is.”
    Their is honor and defeat that comes from getting back off the ground after you fall that is so powerful to be alive in the moment in.
    @Sun wukong
    ” I wonder why men view themselves so horribly in this country.”
    No guidance in really caring about yourself and a lot of shame and guilt for being told when you do your messed up for thinking that way.
    For me I got really hurt when people I grew up with would remind me on how their feelings came first. It’s a recipe for disaster . I enjoy Falling down but I don’t stay twit and dwell about it. I do my best to get up and move ahead. The more I allow myself to fall the more I see my humanity.

    @Rocket
    “The second part is the lack of respect that women give men. Put bluntly, in today’s society the vast majority of women treat men like garbage.”
    Well that sums up growing up with women for me. I will always love my family for being born and what not but rocket I think your spot on.
    In a book I read about boys who get abused I remember a pattern about guys growing up and just sleeping with escorts or prostitutes… It opened my eyes because before I read anything about the manospher I found that I had a past of no respect no self worth and nothing I ever did well remotely good enough.
    That’s a really bad way to think as a male. I would say that I have come a long way. But just last night I had a bunch of nightmares come back and give me cold sweats.
    For me I have found to ways to not fall away from self respect
    1 treat myself first in all dealings
    2 spend time alone

    @caveclown
    “But the boys that don’t? The one’s that act aloof and tease them? The confident boys that act like they are the prize?”
    Even observing that brings back good times.

    @Glenn
    Keep at me man… Hard for me to just keep getting my ass Handed to me because of lack of practice.

  78. “For reference this is the chick that billionaire Arnold Schwarzenegger was banging. Plus Arnold Junior. Even the top Alphas have to cast a very wide net when they go looking for easy sex.”

    Wow. I don’t think I could have gotten over that one if I were Maria either.

  79. @MYG thinks ADHD is a mental disorder, it’s just old school masculinity that has been pathologized by contemporary culture. You’re right MYG, game would never work for someone like me with ADHD, snerk. You are a fucking prat, go home you snivelling white knight bitch.

  80. Arnie was so loaded with steroids when he screwed his maid that he would have humped a knot in a board. Think of when you were a teen and multiply by 5.

  81. I’m cultivating and incubating my new self-perspective. I’ve been working very hard on this especially over the past year.

    Some major examples of improvement:

    -ONS girl stopped replying to my messages after we hooked up. Before we hooked up she would always respond IMMEDIATELY to my messages. After a few more messages over a couple weeks asking her if she wanted to get together again, and she was iffy about it, I just let that one go. I spun the plate one time and it broke. No problem with that.

    -ONE-itis girl who LJBF’d me last year started messaging me again. Completely ignored her. Before I got LJBF’d and realized she had zero sexual interest in me I was a complete chump for her. Doing her all kinds of favors over the years under the guise of ‘friendship.’ I no longer have any female friends, and for the foreseeable future I have no desire to have any at all.

    My communication with women has gone exclusively to Gaming them. I have a lot of work to do with that as far as sealing the deal goes, but for now, I’ve really been heavily emphasizing just not interacting with girls at all outside of Gaming them.

    I’ve made it a point to only present myself to women as a guy with Game. It took me years to realize — or just admit — that I wanted sex, and that was my primary motivator. I used to spill my guts to girls because I thought I wanted emotional support.

    Now I realize it’s a lack of sex. I want sex and until sex is a normal part of my life, the only reason I ever have in talking to any girl at all is to pursue sex or at least get some practice polishing my Game and modifying/changing/refining my behavior and mentality towards sex/relationships.

    We were ‘friends’ for a long time, me and ONE-itis girl. It’s like I don’t even know her anymore, because I stopped caring.

    And I just realized how empowering it is to realize that weeks ago I completely ignored her, and she didn’t even come to mind until now — whereas last year I couldn’t stop thinking about her for a minute.

    My mentality about women has definitely improved beyond my wildest dreams. I never could’ve imagined how good it would feel to be like this now, because being like this is the last thing on earth I thought I wanted.

    I thought it was all about ‘equality’ and ‘sympathy’ and ’empathy’ and ’emotional connection’ — for the first time in my life I’ve been more isolated than ever, and happier than ever.

    My mind is not tortured by Sirens’ songs anymore. It’s taken me a while — I can’t remember how long I’ve been reading this blog, I’d figure at least a couple years by now — but I’ve definitely changed.

    Even still being an ‘incel’, it almost doesn’t feel like it anymore. I don’t feel like a loser at all anymore. I don’t feel like I don’t have ‘success’ with women even though I’m still a virgin and am not sexually active.

    I feel good about myself when I look in the mirror. I completely changed my hair and clothes and have bulked up a lot since a year ago. I just think “Damn, I’m a good looking guy,” and I go to take a piss and I go, “God damn, I have a big dick.”

    I don’t want to say it doesn’t matter that I’m an “incel” still, or that getting laid doesn’t matter — but I swear my entire self-image has changed and has become more and more detached from what I imagine other people think about me. I don’t care nearly as much anymore.

    And as far as even getting laid goes — I’ve gone without sex for so long, one side of the coin is deprivation, but the other is feeling almost invincible.

    Like I’m so used to not having it, what’s a girl going to do to me? Refuse me? Turn me down and deprive me of sex? LMAO. Don’t make me laugh.

    And if I can’t get it from one girl, I’ll get it from another sooner or later. The longer I’ve stuck around here the more my attitude has shifted to the idea that women are a dime a dozen.

    Even an HB10. So what? They’re there one minute and gone the next. I feel completely prepared to deal with that, as well as I’ve dealt with a complete lack of sex.

    The other deal is my time is literally filled up more now. I’m working longer hours these days, have to go to bed earlier to get up earlier, and I spend most of my time inbetween preparing food for the following days.

    Any other spare time is spent researching nutrition/psychology/NLP/etc., and once I get a routine going where I can be more efficient, I’ll probably get back into building guitars and hopefully getting a repair business finally going, maybe even doing custom work.

    Book writing has always been on the back of my mind and I almost tried to publish a collection of short stories I wrote back when I was in college, but I never got around to it.

    Long story short, I have a lot to do. I literally don’t have time to give women more value than the value I’m giving them now, which is purely sexual, and since I’m not getting laid, my total investment in women is maybe a text message or two every couple weeks. If something comes of it, okay. But if not, I don’t really care.

    A part of me feels like I’m not pushing hard enough to seal the deal and get laid. But for now I feel comfortable building up my self-esteem and just getting used to talking to girls exclusively from the frame of Game — getting used to taking a masculine role and coming off a certain way, instead of just wearing my heart on my sleeve like I used to.

    And it’s working much better. I’m also enjoying the ‘time off’ to just go to my job, come home, do whatever I want until I have to go to bed, and not have to deal with phone calls from anyone, or anyone ringing the doorbell, or anyone basically having anything to do with me.

    My life is feeling more and more like it’s on my terms. Because it is becoming more and more on my terms.

    Getting laid might be okay, sure. But honestly the benefits I’ve gotten from completely changing my PERSPECTIVE about women, and my INNER REALITY is more than I ever could’ve dreamed of — literally.

    If this is an answer to my prayer for peace of mind back when I was in the throes of sexual deprivation torture and fantasizing about women…..well, there you go.

    It’s the last thing in the world I would’ve expected to give me peace of mind, which makes me all the more trusting of it. Lol. I was convinced if I found my ‘manic pixie dream girl’ everything would work out fine.

    That dream is so long gone I can’t even believe I had it at one time. And that is probably one of the best things I could say has ever happened to me in my life.

    Self-perception is definitely important. I think I can safely say I didn’t have a solid understanding of what healthy self-perception was until I got acquainted with, and progressively more familiar with, TRP.

  82. Driver, “A woman’s SMV (or her perception of her SMV) is ridiculous. You have average to slightly above average women (5s and 6s) walking around as if they are the top class (8s and 9s). The only real work (improvement) is expected by the man (as usual) where as the woman can be “as is” and her over inflated ego tells her the man (a 5 or 6) isn’t good enough (she shouldn’t settle). The idea of “settling” has to be the worst idea ever introduced to women.

    I’ve seen plenty of these “average” looking women out (usually overweight because our society now give them a pass to “just be you”). The problem is their expectations (of the man) are still pretty high. I’ve seen this countless times where a fat woman will expect the admiration of a tall, good looking man. You can only laugh when you see it.”

    – Agree! But while obese women may desire tall, good looking men, after years of never getting one, they realize their SMV and either do something (lose weight) to get one OR stay the way they are and partner with a man closer to her SMV. That’s why you see obese couples everywhere in the States.

    The only tall goodlooking men upsetting this balance are African American men who will date fat women despite themselves not being fat. This upsets the white dating .pool because white women have figured out that instead of losing weight to attract fit, good looking white men, they can stay as is and still get a fit good looking guy who’s black.

  83. Rollo, you really think that young guy in that video looks like a 4? Below the American average, really? Come on man, he’s above average. He’s a good looking guy by today’s standards.

  84. Jeremy: “It is sadly trite how females respond to arguments for male confidence with notions of all humans being imperfect… and arguments for female confidence with, “You Go Girl!”

    Me: Yeah? Quote me mofo!

    Jeremy quotes: ” If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards.” ”

    “It comes off like a pipe dream because sane, normal people don’t act like that. We understand that we are ordinary and flawed, and our would be partners are also ordinary and flawed.”

    – Because “You Go Girl” was all over that! ?????? Sure, man.

    Agent P,

    “@MYG thinks ADHD is a mental disorder, it’s just old school masculinity that has been pathologized by contemporary culture.”

    – Because a grown ass man figiting in his restaurant seat and pouring olive oil on napkins is real masculine. Yeah.

  85. Re: the attitude of the Prince

    It is pretty spectacular how little you can realize that you have a supplicating frame, a low self-image. If you’ve never known what it feels like to simply expect to be respected, if you’ve never presumed people will be interested in what you have to say, if you’ve never felt a woman mad with desire for you, the whole thing seems strange – to see others do so seems almost blasphemous or hedonistic. It can almost make you wary, like the entitled man is a sorcerer or something, ha.

    It’s a complete change of mindset. And it doesn’t happen all at once. You can’t just take your whole personality and warp it. But you can use certain wedges, certain leverage points, to begin to tweeze the whole edifice apart, to reshape it in a new, more regal, mould.

    Here’s a few examples, from my own experience:

    1. Body language. Harden the fuck up. You probably hunch your shoulders and curve your neck too much. You probably don’t stand on the balls of your feet enough. Bounce, loosen up. Have energy. Twitch your hands around like you’re itching to find something to do with them. Soon you might begin to see how defeated a defeated posture makes you feel, how numb to your body’s reactions and emotions.
    2. Expression. At the roundtable last week I was telling Glenn how, when I first started practicing in the clubs, I experimented with a cocky smirk. Then I gradually escalated, to see how far I could push it. In a club, outright arrogance – an absolute caricature of confidence – got me much more attention.
    You probably don’t realize how bland your expressions are. Arrogance isn’t the go-to in most circumstances, but again, give your face life. Let it tell the story about how your’e feeling. There’s a feedback loop between your face and your expressions. Unblock it.
    3. Be sexual with a girl that desires you madly. I recognize this might not be terribly actionable for most people, but I’m just recognizing the pattern. A lot of men here have some story about how they learned about female sexuality from some crazy chick or nymphomaniac back when. There’s really no substitute. Once you’ve seen what real desire looks like, you start to see how futile it is trying to turn a lukewarm attraction into something more. Next.
    I was fortunate (?) enough to experience a bit of that myself. The classic extreme BPD chick. It was overall a pretty terrible time really, but you learn a lot about how unacceptable mediocre desire is in a partner when you’ve had a girl who would hardly let you sleep for weeks, who drove me mad sending me texts at work begging me to allow her to send pics of herself. You learn fast that a girl doesn’t want to feel like your equal if she desires you.
    4. Look into your behaviors for beta tells, or signs of lack of confidence. You can try to consciously alter them. Doing this over time tends to have a snowball effect; changing a few things shows you the mindset behind those things, and other things slide into place easier. Changing your behavior changes the way people perceive and treat you as well, creating a righteous feedback loop.
    Not to bang to hard on the roundtable most people weren’t in on. But a lot of thought and ground was covered, so another example from there. I noticed that one of our panelists (I won’t call him out) tended to apologize whenever he started speaking, and others stopped talking to listen. “Sorry, I was just gonna say…” Do you not think that we want to hear from you? Do you not think you are worthy of speaking among us? Men with confidence only apologize if they interrupt egregiously. Sometimes not even then, if the thing they had to say was especially important.
    So notice that. Try to change it. And a small piece of mindset follows. Yes, until you have some experience calibrating you may come across as a bit rude from time to time. Lord knows I acted like an ass a few times when I was first learning to deflect shit tests. Maybe you’ll find that people don’t hate you just because you’re an ass occasionally. Maybe you’ll find that you have value beyond simply being nice and pleasant.
    5. Get out of your own damn head. Feel things. Notice what you’re body is doing. A lot of guys here suffer from overintellectualization. They live almost exclusively in their prefrontal cortex. As a result, they instinctively try to peacock their mind. A lot of bitterness ensues when they realize that intellect alone doesn’t make them sexy.
    Look, I’ll play with the dread fire of analogy here. You know how you look down upon, laugh at, or despise roided up losers who are always flexing up their perfectly manicured pecs and lats, preening them, and never using them for a lick of good? Yeah, that’s you. You, with your fancy words ripped out of your ass, forced into sentences never meant to bear them, bringing up topics no-one wants to learn about, bragging and puffing about intellectual battles and interests that you haven’t used to better the world around you, to bring comfort to the broken, delight to the comfortable. Break that trumpet in half and gouge out your tongue with the pieces if that’s the only way to hold your silence, you douchy piece of shit. Don’t you know that people want to interact with all of you? Do you think they have a fetish for grey matter? Socialization is about the resonance of emotions, bodies, ideas as one piece. That’s a person. Don’t forget that. Get.
    Out.
    Of.
    Your.
    Fucking.
    HEAD
    And live a bit more fully. Most people won’t be half as afraid of your feelings, your impulses and emotions, as you are. Most people are a bit confused and put out by how much you hold them back. Most people want to see a bit of what’s going on in the background. Women especially. They don’t feel ‘connected’ to you otherwise. How do you think the asshole douchebag who’s banging her does it? “He just gets me.” That’s code for – he lets me know what his impulses are, good or bad, so I’m capable of adapting into his frame. I can feel what he wants moment by moment, so I can strive to please him. And he ‘just gets’ that that’s what she needed all along.

    You aren’t your mind. Your mind is a tool. Just like your muscles. Don’t identify by either of them; identify by what you do with them.

    If ya need some help, look up Elliott Hulse on YouTube. Just hit some of his more popular videos. He may….lack intellectual rigor. But his screeds on masculinity, feeling and experiencing your body, and the neurotic tone of modern tasks were pretty helpful to me a year or two ago.

  86. Steve O ever a 3, really?

    Symmetrical face with well defined and proportioned features plus a fit, non-obese body do not a 3 make. No matter how clownish someone acts or dresses.

    Take a stroll through your local Walmart to see the 2, 3, and 4s of America.

  87. @Mad Yale Grad

    Watch any Steve-O interview on Stern. He’s a zero. Girls wouldn’t talk to him before he became famous.

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