“She turned on me”

turning

In the last comment thread Rational Male regular, Glenn, had an interesting exchange that went like this:

My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on me by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my relationship with my daughter along the way. So much destruction and pain.

I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? She was hot, there were always good looking guys willing to fuck her – I mean, is it just inevitable for some women?

As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity. In Anger Management I detailed the anger men direct at themselves, not at the women who followed a natural predictable ‘flow’ of rationalizations and social conventions they can be expected to as their conditions in life dictate. Naturally any anger a man may deal with or express in this regard is always presumed to be directed towards women. A feminine dominant social order is one founded on the innate solipsism of women.

Now, before I dig in a bit deeper here, I want to make clear that while Glenn’s comment started my thinking process about this week’s topic, what I’m going to get at here isn’t a reflection on anything personal. His story of being “turned on” by a wife he believed was playing on his team is a very common one related by many a post-divorced man using the hindsight of a Red Pill lens.

I’m adding this caveat since only Glenn can really say for himself whether his mindset at the time he first met, and later married, the wife who turned on him was colored by Blue Pill idealism and / or a Beta self-perception. My guess, as with most men in his situation, was that he actually had what was a realistic expectation of a reciprocal relationship based on what he thought would be her genuine appreciation of his efforts and merits.

Betas at the Epiphany

I’ve discussed in several prior threads the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy women use in both the short and long term. What I think needs a bit more explanation is the long term effects of that strategy on the Beta man’s mindset as a result of his fem-centric conditioning.

When a woman approaches and enters into her Epiphany Phase, she has a limbic understanding that her genetic chips need to be cashed in with a man who has ‘proper’ long term provisioning potential. For the greater part, those men are at least expected by women to have a Blue Pill, Beta conditioning that will make them more compliant with, now, what’s becoming an unignorable open Hypergamy.

These are the men Sheryl Sandberg describes as,

“…someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.”

These are nice euphemisms used to describe a man willing to accept his position of powerlessness in the grand scheme of feminine-primacy and open Hypergamy for his participation in realizing women’s dominant sexual strategy.

The Beta man encountering this new found attraction convinces himself that women’s interest in him is genuine and organic. In a sense it is, but although this attraction (not to be confused with arousal) is perceived as genuine on the part of women, it’s an attraction born of necessity. That necessity is the need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.

A Beta at the Epiphany phase believes his ship has finally come in and his self-righteous AFC strategy of patience and perseverance will be rewarded. The social conventions at the time make him believe he’s to be more lauded for ‘forgiving’ a woman’s past, irrespective of whether he can expect praise for looking past her misgivings.

The Alpha Widow or carousel riding wife-to-be may then convince herself that she in fact actually sees an Alpha potential, or a potential for long term success, in ‘settling’ on that Beta in the long term. While I have had men relate horror stories about women knowing that they were settling and being insecure about their futures before or at the time of their wedding, I’m going to suggest that this foreknowledge is rarely a conscious aspect of women’s insight. “Turning” on their husband-to-be later in is life rarely a preconceived plan, but it is a predictable outcome for men who persist in a Beta mindset throughout their marriages.

Getting Her Settled Best

Saving the Best continues to be a seminal post on Rational Male, not the least of which because so many men could relate to the experience. However, this may not have been the experience of discovering a sexual past his wife had no intention of ever allowing him to share with her , but rather the expectation men have of receiving a woman’s ‘sexual best’ in marriage. That may not amount to the sexual experimentation she had in her Party Years, but for a Beta who believes his patience and virtue are to be rewarded at long last it is an expectation of enjoying the same or better sexual urgency his wife-to-be shared with her past lovers.

That Beta believes it’s his turn, because why else would a woman commit to a lifetime investment in a man she didn’t think was her best option?

Remember, during the Epiphany Phase a woman’s rationale for choosing the Beta for a long term investment is because she’s “experienced it all” and finally “knows better than to keep dating the Bad Boys who don’t appreciate her.” Thus the Beta believes he must be the best option for her by virtue of her investment in that belief.

And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, “…in time, nothing’s sexier.”

For the Alpha Widow marrying the Beta-in-waiting, the comparison of his sexual appeal with prior lovers conflicts with her need to finalize the long term security she couldn’t with her previous Alphas (or the men she perceived as Alpha). Thus comes reserved, self-restrained and self-conscious sex with her new Beta provider. She knows that sex with her Beta lacks the intensity of her prior lovers, but falls back on her Epiphany Phase rationalizations that she’s “doing it for the right reasons this time”.

That right reason being of course getting pregnant to further consolidate long term provisioning.

Our Beta simply lacks the same sexual experience as his wife-to-be to know any better (unless of course he finds proof of that experience later), but he gradually suspects her progressive lack of passion, reservations and self-consciousness by comparing it to porn or some of the other women’s he’s had sex with.

Social conventions abound for women to rely on as they become less incentivized to have sex with their Beta after the first child. Body image considerations, ‘mismatched libidos’ and “well, sex is supposed to taper off after marriage, everyone knows that” are just some of the prepackaged tropes ready for use.

The Turning

Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. The sex “reward”, the ‘cookie time for good boy’, for desired behavior or performance ‘turns’ off, or sex is used as an intermittent reward for desired behavior (i.e. Choreplay). Sex becomes a utility; a positive reinforcer for her Beta increasing his provisioning capacity rather than the true visceral enjoyment she had with her past lovers.

This new functionality sex represents to a wife becomes ‘turning’ on her husband who believed he would always be her most intimate priority. In the instance of a woman marrying her ‘Alpha Provider’ this may in fact be the case, but as with the hierarchies of love that Alpha doesn’t have the same concern with, and didn’t marry his wife under the same pre-expectations a Beta does.

For the man who persists in his Beta mindset (or the guy who regresses into that mindset) this ‘turning’ becomes more and more pronounced. The turning comes out of the bedroom and into other aspects of their relationship – finances, familial ties, her expectations of his ambitiousness, his asserting himself at work or with their mutual friends – on more and more fronts he’s compared to other men and the ghosts of the Alphas she knows or has known.

Even though the Beta is aware his children are now his wife’s true priority, his Blue Pill conditioning still predisposes him to sacrifices. Again, he meets with ready-made social conventions that shame his discontent; “Is sex all that’s important to you?” It shouldn’t be, because it’s really “what’s on the inside that counts”, but he can’t shake the feeling he’s slipping out of her respect.

This is when Beta Dad doubles down. His Blue Pill expectations of himself require an all-consuming, self-sacrificing predisposition. The horse will work harder. His wife may have lost respect for him by this point, but his sense of honor and duty press him on. He doesn’t want to be like his oppressive or non-present father was. He wants to ‘out-support’ his father’s ghost, or what he believes ‘other guys’ would do when their marriages get tough.

So he waits it out, but she’s ‘turned’ on him by this point. It wasn’t planned, but all of his martyr-like determination only makes her that much more resentful for having settled on this Beta. After a certain stressing point, her disinterest or indignation goes even beyond his capacity to stay committed to a losing investment. These are the guys who tell me, “Damn Rollo, where where you when I was 30? I wish I’d known then what I know now.”

Do all marriages and relationships follow this schedule? No, but it’s important that men know the signs, understand what’s really expected of them and know when they’re being settled on despite all a woman’s self-interested refutations of that. It’s important they realize that performance isn’t limited to how well they meet a woman’s expectations, but that performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself.

It’s important that he lives in his own Frame and that any woman, wife or otherwise, participates in his Frame at his pleasure. Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a preconditioned responsibility to forgive a woman’s sexual strategy while still being gushingly appreciative that she chose him to settle on.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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girlwithadragonflytattoo

@Bad Painter… how is marriage beneficial to a man? (this is a good/best scenario – where both partners have decided to meet each others’ needs and commit to each other only). Benefits: amazing sex (I know… apparently many women drop the ball on this one, but if you’re up front about this as being a non-negotiable in your marriage, then its out there and should be a benefit), constant (through the years) & frequent passionate sex (again, apparently very hard to find… same above disclosure applies), a partner in doing life together, a companion to pursue goals (any life goals…… Read more »

girlwithadragonflytattoo
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Yuck I remember that study – especially the part where it describes what women would rather do than have sex with their husbands…. Hypergamy is really open – celebrated even. And if the benefits seem too good to be true, its because they are – there are costs that go with them for men. Costs: being able to financially support a family (even if the wife works, you’re expected to work… fulltime, in a country that doesn’t give you the kind of vacation or time off that Europe does (even paternity leave), having to provide sufficient health care for your… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

According to a recent study by iVillage, less than half of wedded women married the person who was the best sex of their lives (52 percent say that was an ex.) In fact, 66 percent would rather read a book, watch a movie or take a nap than sleep with a spouse. Scenario #1 1) Woman gains 20 pounds 2) She doesn’t feel desirable 3) Her sex drive decreases 4) Wife determines that husband is a poor love 5) “I’d rather read a book about teen vampires” Scenario #2 1) Husband gains 20 pounds 2) Wife determines that husband is… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ girlwithadragonflytattoo Ten years ago I would said what you did above if asked what I thought the benefits of marriage are supposed to be. Today I would say those that benefits are supposed to be, but that I have zero faith in the actual manifestation of those benefits. I suppose it might be that the very elite few that eon describes are such beneficiaries. For rest of us it’s just meaningless sex if anything, and marriage as a metaphorical suicide. Other consolation prizes may exist. For those of us over 40 I think we’re mostly fucked. Even if we… Read more »

Emma the Emo
6 years ago

Badpainter,

Just to make my position clear, I don’t think casual sex for women always results in pump&dump – sometimes it results in a loving relationship. Same for marriage. It’s an emotional decision and not a rational one nowadays. Thus, to sell a woman casual sex, one does not rely on using logic. And to sell marriage to a man, I bet the method is the same.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “Benefits: amazing sex (I know… apparently many women drop the ball on this one, but if you’re up front about this as being a non-negotiable in your marriage, then its out there and should be a benefit), constant (through the years) & frequent passionate sex (again, apparently very hard to find… same above disclosure applies)” Badpainter makes the point about the all-too typical bait and switch clearly enough, so I’ll make a few different points. 1) In a marriage “amazing sex” is identical to, defined by, “constant and frequent passionate sex.” To even be able to think otherwise, much… Read more »

Ang Aamer
6 years ago

I must be slow but all this… debate seems to miss the point. ANY MAN can’t fix a woman’s innate Hypergamy. So… why bother? I have resigned myself to the idea if Mrs Ang heads for the exits via mortality or divorce. I will find an 18 year old to replace her. I have said as much to my wife. It’s obvious to me that if you want to minimize Alpha Widow probability, baggage probability, and princess probability. You shop at the young store not the Wall Mart. To me everyone noting that all men prefer young women miss the… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Besides marriage conveying to men the considerable benefits of #1. Sanctioned sex. to which I agree, although the research Rollo and I could point you to inarguably shows that when women do have unmarried sex then those women give better sex to those men when not married to those men. For one example, women give oral compared to receiveing oral far more frequently outside of ltr compared to inside. Women stink at being good, giving, and game. More concretely, this is really a benefit to *women*: married *women* get better sex, and more orgasms, etc. we have several other putative… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

@ Emma the emo

I agree. I think, however, a man sells marriage to himself based on his situation. I really can’t think of a more life altering decision. And while emotion plays a not insignificant role the logic of the whole thing has to be there. That logic of course is in some part based on what he sees as the benefits of marriage vs. the benefits of being single. That calculus has changed a lot in the last 20 years.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: casual sex study

“Women like casual sex just as much as men! Even more so! Women are better at being men than men are! Hah hah! Take that, you bad boys who used me and dumped me! I was using you! I would have dumped you, but I was trying to trick you into thinking it wasn’t as casual, see.”

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

In my marriage… My ex wife always put put. She did whatever I wanted and I have the videos to prove it. This confuses me to this day. Everything I read, none of it truly explains my marriage. An HB10 who did whatever I wanted and let me video it. Yet she stated cheating the moment we got married. Something she forced on me. Perhaps there just isn’t anyone to satisfy the hypergamy of a woman like that? Perhaps she is doomed to unhappiness? She is very unhappy despite men lining up to fuck her on tinder and her taking… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Heartiste makes the usual claim that it is best to exhibit preselection by a higher SMV girl. In actuality, preselection works best when the girl is clearly sluttier. I’m talking her squirming like things-probably-oozing-out-of-her sluttier.

Maybe we’re saying the same thing, but I think not. Women *love* to compete with sluts for men’s attention; women do not want to compete with actually high value women, since they’d lose.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: preselection

It makes perfect sense from a sexual conflict perspective. Recall, the key concept is women doing their best to oppose men’s reproductive strategies. So here’s the explanation, in toto: If a man shows up with another woman he is clearly going to have sex with, she feels compelled to intervene.

It couldn’t be shorter or more direct.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

I have to say, the more I hear about Tinder, the less I want the hassle of all those women. There wouldn’t be any plausible deniability, and all those scorned women would firebomb my house.

StringsofCoins
6 years ago

All women are sluts. You just have to give them the opportunity, the safety, the intimacy, and the trust. So they can be a slut for you. It’s inherent in their programming. The married guys need to work their game hard to make their wives want to be their slut. Else they have lost. What a constant battle to wage. When they see you at your worst and rarely at your best because you save that for your job. No wonder the successful cultures put restraints on women. This is what we have though so go game your wife so… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

Benefits: amazing sex

Hahahaha, hoooooo, that’s a good one! Women use that hook eeeeeverytime, then suddenly they’re toeing the feminist line with: “Look, just because I’m your wife doesn’t mean I have to give it to you any time you want!” Suddenly the guy that thought marriage meant not having to chase sex anymore finds that he’s put himself in the weakest bargaining position imaginable with a girl who no longer has to have sex to keep a man. Oh the cruel irony.

M Simon
6 years ago

Damntull
January 19th, 2015 at 6:20 pm

If you don’t do dread game divorce is a certainty. Of course the problem is beta women. They bitch moan and threaten. The alpha woman will rise to the occasion. “She is hot for you? I’m going to win you back and keep you.”

M Simon
6 years ago

jf12 January 21st, 2015 at 1:03 am There are some women who feel they can out compete any other woman. Here is how I dread game one. “I’m going to find a really good looking young girl with the big tits I like. You are going to help me with her. And then you are going to win me back by wanting me more than any other woman ever could.” She gets nervous with the first part and then chills and thrills with the ending. Funny enough she likes big tits as much as I do. The other woman gives… Read more »

sfcton
6 years ago

anyone who thinks women with 3+ kids don’t divorce should get out more. Its happened at least twice in my circles. One man had 7 kids and his wife walked when the youngest was 9 taking most of his Colonel’s retirement check with her. The other man had 5 kids

Anon32
Anon32
6 years ago

“#6 someone to tell your deepest thoughts and fears to (without having them use them against you).”

Right, this is a recipe for disaster. Never real your life story to a woman. We are alone. It’s like telling your problems/fears to your young child – it would only serve to upset them and lose confidence in you, and respect. A man must always be seen as her rock.

The Burninator
The Burninator
6 years ago

@zdroidz “Scenario #1 1) Woman gains 20 pounds 2) She doesn’t feel desirable 3) Her sex drive decreases 4) Wife determines that husband is a poor love 5) “I’d rather read a book about teen vampires” Scenario #2 1) Husband gains 20 pounds 2) Wife determines that husband is a poor lover 3) “I’d rather read a book about teen vampires” Scenario #3 1) Both the husband and wife gain 20 pounds 2) Wife determines that husband is a poor lover 3) “We need to attend couples therapy to put the spark back in our relationship.”” You lay it all… Read more »

jimmy the saint
jimmy the saint
6 years ago

@The Burninator

“I always tell women: sex can take less time than unloading the dishwasher”

http://www.independent.ie/style/sex-relationships/what-happened-when-one-irish-woman-committed-to-a-month-of-sex-with-her-husband-30906973.html

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ The Burninator You lay it all on gaining weight. Plenty of women in marriage, and men, do not gain weight. The woman simply no longer needs the qualities of the man in her life as much as she did at one time, and realizes she can fleece him legally at will, so the sex stops. No doubt there are women like that. One of my old work friends told me that his wife put out while they dated but wouldn’t have sex on their wedding night. Once that ring went on her finger their sex life stopped. After the… Read more »

zdr01dz
6 years ago

^^^^^^
I should note that my old work friend was from my pizza delivery days in the 1990s. He was an assistant manager at Pizza Hut and in average physical shape. He was dead average in the brains department. I liked him and he was a good person but women probably looked at him as low on the totem pole. The lack of sex might have had to do with the fact he wasn’t alpha enough. I don’t know.

agent p
agent p
6 years ago

The irony of the national post article is that it was produced at the University of Ottawa which is an epicentre of gynocentric insanity right now. They are fully gripped by “rape culture” hysteria complete with an obsession over micro-aggressions. Their womyns studies faculty and students are notorious for using fascist tactics to shut down any potential MRA type discussions complete with pulling of fire alarms and simply shouting down speakers until there in no point in even speaking any longer. More recently they are being sued by the majority of what was their hockey team. About a year ago… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@zdr01dz, re: “But there is another large group of women that love sex.
I don’t know what the true percentages are”

Desired monthly frequency of sex tells the entire story. Young women after the honeymoon period consider ten times a month to be “all the time”, while young men think it is “hardly ever”. The overlap between men and women is not large at all. Most lesbian couples experience bed death within the first year.

Most women don’t even bother masturbating to climax, much less do so frequently.

The Burninator
The Burninator
6 years ago

In all honesty zdr01dz I doubt it breaks into thirds. Briffault’s (sp) law comes immediately to mind. Do some enjoy it? Yes, no doubt. Do they even casually reach the tiers of desire that men have? A scant few perhaps, but only with medications applied, otherwise, hardly. Lesbian bed death, which jf12 mentioned, is very real and very well documented at this point. Sex is a strategy to keep the man glued to her for provisioning once the kids pop out. The less she needs provisioning, the less impulse there is outside of a “natural” drive she’ll feel to scratch… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

The approval of the so-called monogamy drugs, i.e. the low-dose oral testosterone that makes married women want more sex, will make it too obvious that for the entire previous century sex therapists deliberately blamed husbands, knowing it wasn’t the husbands’ fault.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Sex Interest Of Females In America – addendum

33% Love sex
Attractive women disproportionately represented in this group

33% Think sex is ok
Average women disproportionately represented in this group

33% Hate sex
Unattractive women disproportionately represented in this group

1% High school teachers that molest their students
Every woman in this group suffers from brain damage

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

It’s been at least four full decades since I first heard the very old joke about the real reason why brides smile when they walk down the aisle. And it was very old even then. And I was (am?) the kind of guy that other guys don’t tell such jokes to. I vaguely recall there may have been some typical negative wife stuff going on. For one thing she had started birth control pills over my objections, and I’m certain the sex was already far too frequent since it was a couple years past the honeymoon period. Anyway literally by… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

far too infrequent

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@zdr01dz, re: “Attractive women disproportionately represented in this group” That’s the reason why a woman is said to go ugly when she turns bitchy. The basic point of a woman looking attractive is for her to look like she would be willing to have sex. And for women readers, no this is NOT projection by men. What a man means by a woman being sexy to him is that she looks/behaves like she would enjoy sex with him. In total contrast, women project, so that what a woman means by a man being sexy to her is that he looks/behaves… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Around fifty years ago, at the start of the sexual revolution, the only openly sexually-displaying men were homosexuals. Until the MID 1970s even disco dudes didn’t unbutton their shirts.

But women have been flaunting what little sexuality they have, from time immemorial.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: women turning “women’s sexual desire was significantly and negatively predicted by relationship duration after controlling for age, relationship satisfaction, and sexual satisfaction. Men’s sexual desire, however, was not significantly affected by the duration of their romantic relationships.” “relationship quality was not associated with sexual desire for women” http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2011.569637#tabModule Murray, S., and Milhausen, R. Sexual Desire and Relationship Duration in Young Men and Women. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, Volume 38, Issue 1, 2012. Don’t blame the men in any way. Focus on the women, solely the women, to solve this problem if one wants to actually solve this… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

The buzzphrase is “sexual desire discrepancy”. The title of this article tells it all.

Herbenick D, Mullinax M, Mark K. Sexual Desire Discrepancy as a Feature, Not a Bug, of Long-Term Relationships: Women’s Self-Reported Strategies for Modulating Sexual Desire. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, Volume 11, Issue 9, pages 2196–2206, September 2014.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12625/full

I’m disappointed in Herbenick circling the wagons around women.

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

Here’s a glimpse of our future. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/11357201/Nearly-50-per-cent-of-Japanese-adults-not-having-sex.html Part of this is due to very specific aspects of Japanese history, economics and culture. Remember, there is no economic future for most young Japanese men – their economy is now in a death spiral. Also, Japanese cultural traditions were always much stronger than those in the U.S. in many ways so when they are consciously destroyed, the populace is even more adrift. I also think that many Japanese men have adopted an effeminate pose, or rather a non-masculine appearance. Whether it’s no muscles, rail thinness or effete mannerisms, it’s quite pronounced. It… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

The crowbar upgrade basically is the Gravity Gun. What is the hammer upgrade? Maybe a sort of RPG?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Glenn re: cause vs effect. More than twice as many young Japanese women as men report having little to no desire for sex.

cholo
cholo
6 years ago

@zdroidz

You posted the vid about Tina Fey….did you know she has some deep , mysterious past experience with an obvious alpha which has scarred her for life? Her current husband is only about 5’5″ and she admits being terrified of any average to tall man? Not a good example of “wired for hypergamy” since her wiring was fried early on……

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ eon

trollol

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

The current state-of-the-art mantra regarding sexual desire discrepancy is “Man up and decrease your sexpectations!”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-mark/adjust-these-three-sexpec_1_b_6255182.html

“The disappearance of that passionate sex doesn’t have to be a bad thing.” said no man ever.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ Nathan

as the National Post article confirms looks are everything. alpha fucks equals looks.
and looks equals alpha fucks.
it’s simple.

All based on self-reporting. Looks are back-hamstered pro or con after the amygdala has made its decision.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ droid

Here is a list of 45 things you do that I love and appreciate.

I hear this a lot from broads. So, does she make you sammiches? That will tell if she’s a good woman.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

FYI the entire purpose of the “You go girl!” and “Women like sex just as much as men if not more!” narrative is to ensure that women’s desire for LESS sex is considered normative.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@theasgamer, re: “I hear this a lot from broads.”

Me too. I hear it from my own, naturally, but most women all claim to know they ought to appreciate what their husbands do, so plenty of women claim that they do appreciate it. But I’m agreeing with you that a woman merely expressing appreciation for all that her man does is on the same side of the spectrum as a woman expressing disappointment in all that her man does!

She should instead be doing for him, and HE should be judging HER on her performance.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ Emma

And to sell marriage to a man, I bet the method is the same.

Your reasoning error is of distribution. Betas are sold the hypothetical vaj; some alphas want sweetness, warmth, and loyalty since they already have as much vaj as they want. Those alphas make a rational decision. Some require pr0nst@r sex, but that is irrational since it contradicts the loyalty requirement.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Glenn

Didn’t PUA do a vid showing how receptive young Japanese women were to physically aggressive groping etc? Perhaps that’s just Alpha thirst in an Alpha desert?

Whatever it is, sounds like it’s easy pickings for a guy with any game. I dig asian chicks…

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Rollo is more true when more emphatic. “As ugly as it is, the truth is that anxiety, urgency and sexual tension will always prompt women’s genuine sexual desire response. Comfort, trust and familiarity are anti-seductive.”

Yes, but “The disappearance of that passionate sex doesn’t have to be a bad thing.” say all women. In accord with sexual conflict, the peculiarly feminine sexual behavior is to make sex a higher hurdle for the man by (usually) insisting on comfort too.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Can you imagine a world in which any large fraction (double digits; 11% say; I LOL at zdr01ds imaginative 33%) of women actively seek to make sex easier for men?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “go back to square one and start fresh”

I can’t disagree. I really wish there were some other way, but I fail to see any.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ theasdgamer
So, does she make you sammiches? That will tell if she’s a good woman.
Are you kidding me? She does all the cooking, cleaning, holiday planning, birthdays, etc. etc. All the old school girl stuff. And yes, she’s American.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ cholo You posted the vid about Tina Fey….did you know she has some deep , mysterious past experience with an obvious alpha which has scarred her for life? Her current husband is only about 5’5″ and she admits being terrified of any average to tall man? Not a good example of “wired for hypergamy” since her wiring was fried early on…… That’s possible but it’s speculation. All that matter is… A) Tina Fey is wired for hypergamy like every other woman B) She is also wired up for other behaviors that can either interfere with or enhance her natural… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “make their necessity a virtue”

It is apparently true that women orgasm a LOT more with betas, with whom the women can have greater comfort, whom the woman can trust to be familiar with her needs, whom the women expect to CARE about her needs, and whom the women don’t worry about pleasing …

Hence the woman’s orgasming is negatively correlated with her perception of passion and hotness. She rewards the reproductive behaviors in men that go against his ability to reproduce with other women.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ jf12
Most lesbian couples experience bed death within the first year.

Forget Brazzers. Have you seen what actual lesbians look like? It’s amazing they can keep it going for a year. [Shudder]

red-pill ascension
red-pill ascension
6 years ago

Great stuff. …a couple caveat I would note from my experience through divorce and ongoing, red-pill ascension. #1 – Being alpha in a marriage does *not* protect you against being turned on by a wife. When her desire to get what she wants – to provision – runs up against your assertive setting of limits and financial priorities, she will rebel. She doesn’t want that type of alpha. I was a typical blue-pill conditioned man through 17 years of marriage and 3 kids. However, as I aged, I became stronger and more assertive – more manly and alpha-like. ‘No, you… Read more »

girlwithadragonflytattoo

@jf12 Wow!!! So cynical – LOL!!! 😛 You sound way more cynical than normal about the benefits!! Oh my goodness! You said: “1) In a marriage “amazing sex” is identical to, defined by, “constant and frequent passionate sex.” To even be able to think otherwise, much less be able to say otherwise, says a lot about … a lot. 2) EVERY MAN was always “up front about this as being a non-negotiable”. Don’t you dare blame men for women’s dropping the ball. Her biology is not his fault. Her psychology is not his fault. 3) “apparently very hard to find”… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ girltatooblahblahblah – Oh, so women don’t know that men expect that their wives will continue to want to have sex with them frequently once they get married? Lol, what the fuck are you talking about? This is not due to men’s “naivete” – it’s due to women’s perfidy. But we don’t understand women, that’s true. We are taught they are morally superior to us and that the highest achievement of a man’s life is to win the “love” of a woman. Women created these lies, not men. Romantic love and courtly love, along with it’s vassalage is a female… Read more »

girlwithadragonflytattoo
Reply to  Glenn

I’m not trying to blame men at all… online conversations are insane… I’m so sorry for what you went through, I’ve seen that scenario many times which is why I try to write about those issues. BadPainter asked what were the benefits… I tried to explain from my own experience and understanding. I’m 28… so obviously I don’t know everything.

girlwithadragonflytattoo
Reply to  Glenn

Look Glenn, you sound like you really loved your daughter… I’m sorry I assumed you didn’t, you sound like an asshole here, but maybe its just all the pain and hurt you’ve internalized. I hope you find healing, and truly do hope your daughter relationship is repaired at some point.

Healing won’t come from arguing with me back and forth me. We should just leave it & let it go. I wish the best for you.

Razorwire
Razorwire
6 years ago

“Betas are sold the hypothetical vaj; some alphas want sweetness, warmth, and loyalty since they already have as much vaj as they want. Those alphas make a rational decision.” This jives with what I see. Which is really just one of the many manifestations of “wait for it”. Hypothetical vaj is the shoehorn for slipping a beta into the pre-defined “relationship” of her choosing. Because she is not sufficiently being lubed-up by his alpha traits she instead lubes-up the beta up with the potential. “Some require pr0nst@r sex, but that is irrational since it contradicts the loyalty requirement.” This is… Read more »

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

Let’s go along with the thesis that women are 100% hard-wired for hypergamy, and there are no environmental influences that can change this. This would absolve all women of any and all responsibility for any of their sexual behaviors, since the argument would be that they are not free agents. Their sexual preferences are completely pre-determined and their environment/upbringing, etc., has absolutely no bearing on this at all. They are like robots operating from a program that is set in stone, no matter what time period they were born in or what culture they were raised in. In that line… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@rpa We have power when we’re single. We know it. Women know it. And things just work better when men have power in relationships with women Yeah, I agree with this. I know Rollo has written about how cohabitation without marriage is bad, but I feel like if done with careful arrangement so as not to find yourself trapped by common-law or contractual obligation you can maintain your power. If at any moment you can remove her from your life without any legal or financial ramifications (and you find subtle ways to keep her aware of it), it acts as… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “many men aren’t even AWARE that they’ll have these needs”

Oh come one! “There was this one guy I heard about once. I think he may have lived in Japan and got his testicles nuked or something.” EVERY MAN has been well aware of his needs since the first day of puberty, and has striven (strived? stroveded?) mightily to control his needs since about, er, the first week of puberty.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Oh come on …

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: cohabitation

Cohabitors suffer the exact same post-honeymoon deblissification as married folks suffer. It seems to be the woman’s constant contact with the man that dooms it, e.g. incest avoidance etc.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Regarding the comment about sex by girlwithadragonflytattoo amazing sex is different to me, because its like pornstar sex – ridiculously visceral sex… that’s not the same to me as just “passionate sex” which could be almost the same but is usually more romantic. A good marriage has both, and sex is frequent like as in 3-5 times a week or almost daily. I know this is the internet but I’ll take her at her word. There are a lot of women that enjoy a good pounding. Remember your work-buddy who told you at lunch that his wife squirts and has… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Note that “usually more romantic” gets an automatic demotion from a woman, one she feels is so obvious it doesn’t even need explaining.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@zdr01dz, re: “her word.”

Her word is that amazing sex is different from
1)constant
2)frequent
3)passionate

Hence it must be
1)inconstant
2)infrequent
and last but not least
3)dispassionate
which she further defines as unromantic and all about the man forcing his needs on her.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ jf12
which she further defines as unromantic and all about the man forcing his needs on her.

Yep, that’s why it is called a good pounding. Girls want to be taken. That’s what women love to read about. It’s an element in every romance novel.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

“And then the equal, beta provider approached me and asked me if I would be willing to have sex on my terms after I felt comfortable.”

That story line turns on exactly zero women.

red-pill ascension
red-pill ascension
6 years ago

@sun I’ve been thinking about cohabitation myself (having a girlfriend of a year+). I think it definitely blocks some of the worst types of emasculation marriage inflicts on men today. But it prevents us from creating space in the relationship. Creating space and separation is something that seems so important in managing relationships with women. It’s how you assert your power and protect your own identity. In my heart of hearts, I know I’m happiest having my own home and my own personal space, but still having a stable relationship with a woman. They, of course, hate this because they… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “Girls want to be taken”

Yes, but not constantly, and not frequently. The conundrum for a man is that he wants it constantly (or at least frequently). It is, her word, “ridiculous”, to expect a man to conform to a woman’s schedule and to only pound her when she wants it,

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Where does an apparently aware woman get off speculating that most men don’t KNOW their own needs? How did such a woman NOT get the idea that men are forced to mightly suppress their needs?

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ jf12
Yes, but not constantly, and not frequently.
It’s my experience that when a woman is really turned on she wants it just as much as I do. But the frequency of having strong desire is about 50% less. Your mileage may vary.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12

Cohabitors suffer the exact same post-honeymoon deblissification as married folks suffer.

I have no doubt you’re right. That’s half the reason I consider the arrangement valid. When that happens, it’s time to move on. If you ever find a unicorn where it doesn’t and your game is solid, maybe consider escalation to full on marriage. But it seems like a better solution than taking the full plunge, then saying the exact title of this article followed by “… then took half my shit and the kids” when it turns out you were wrong about her.

Badpainter
Badpainter
6 years ago

jf12 – “How did such a woman NOT get the idea that men are forced to mightly suppress their needs?”

The same place men got the “be nice”, “just be yourself” message; other women.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “when a woman is really turned on”

Nobody argues otherwise. The points of interesting debate are
1) How she gets that way with the least effort on his part
2) How should he best try to make her that way more frequently
3) What’s in it for him? Why should he exert himself at all for *her* reproductive strategies, instead of relentlessly promoting his own needs?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong, re: “When that happens, it’s time to move on. If you ever find a unicorn where it doesn’t”

This cohabiting things is exactly women’s reproductive strategy: serial monogamy for a couple of years or so for each ltr. And she has a live-in lightbulb changer too. Win-win for women. Not clear what is in it for men.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Cohabitors suffer the exact same post-honeymoon deblissification as married folks suffer. My best friend moved in with his girlfriend back in our college days. They fought constantly. A couple of years later they got married. After marriage they continued their endless bickering. Fast forward to last month I was over at their house. My buddy was drinking a beer while we played video games in his office. His wife walked in the room and started an innocuous conversation. Out of nowhere he turned on her and let her have it. The screamfest began and I could tell she was scared.… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Man’s optimal reproductive strategy for his needs, in a nutshell.
Step 1. Pound your woman good. Skittles, maybe, if she’s nice.
Step 2. Pound another woman good. Not even skittles.
Step 3. Pound another woman good. She brings the skittles.
See the pattern?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Woman’s optimal reproductive strategy, thumbnail sketch.
Step 1. She doesn’t let any of those nasty boys do anything.
Step 2. Well one of them was special and he could do anything, until she didn’t want to any more with him.
Step 3. Another one was more special.
Rinse, repeat.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ droid

Are you kidding me? She does all the cooking, cleaning, holiday planning, birthdays, etc. etc. All the old school girl stuff. And yes, she’s American.

LOL, all that 5h1t is for her. She has to feed the plowhorse and clean up his stall; she needs to eat and live there, too. Do you seriously care about holidays or birthdays?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12

serial monogamy for a couple of years or so for each ltr

You think I’m suggesting the male be faithful during this time?

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/1874-big-grin-at-a-desk-drinking-coffee.png

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Rollo
I can hardly wait for the Hamsterpocalypse when the 50 Shades of Grey movie premiers next month.

I’m embarrassed to admit this but my wife asked me to take her to see 50 Shades if she can’t align schedules with her lowbrow friend. At least I get to see boobs.

If this happens I’m going in redpill aware and I’ll be sure to write a book report. My hope is that the middle-aged women in the audience put on a good show for me. Cries, gasps, nervous laughter.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ jf12

Step 3. Pound another woman good. She brings the skittles.

Women have always brought the skittles for me, including Mrs. Gamer. She doesn’t like having to bring the skittles.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ Sun Wukong

What tag do you use to post photos? That’s awesome.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Despite women’s too-commonly wistful false memories of actively seeking good poundings plural, the truth is that as soon as any woman gets to feeling any degree of sexual power the very first thing she discards from the sexual relationship is the quickies. She then constantly ups his performance requirements, requiring enormous amounts of foreplay and other activities.

Her choices betray her real feelings.

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

@Rollo

Defintely going to be a hamsterapocalypse, got that movie and valentines day on the same day, jeez. Im actually trying see if I can use these two events in conjunction to my advantage, could be reward full.

Also, you need to do something about the comments section, needs like a overhaul or upgrading, there aren’t even any page counters, makes it a hassle just to get to the last page/latest comment lol.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ Glenn

GWADFT doesn’t understand feminine sexuality–it’s clear. Her ideas fly in the face of it. Give her points for trying, though.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

@ jf12
She then constantly ups his performance requirements, requiring enormous amounts of foreplay and other activities.

For me it went in the opposite direction. On balance each Time+1 has meant less foreplay and more sex.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Badpainter, re: other women.

I don’t think it’s other women that make women destroy relationships. I think women destroy things just fine by themselves.

“Youre not meeting my needs! Waah! Ok, well, you’re right. You have been meeting my needs. Too well! You’re not meeting my needs for you to ignore my needs! Waah!”

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@tasdg, re: “Give her points for trying, though.”

Yes, major props for that.

Jeremy
6 years ago

I am embarrassed to say that I never read those two linked posts Rollo. I must have taken a longer break from the manosphere than I realized. It was funny to read/think about the female projection onto 35-45 year old men who know their relative SMV. It is pure projection and it comes from a perspective of a lifetime of untempered getting what you want. Only someone who has spent their entire life getting what they want sexually would suggest that someone who has worked their ass to get where they are on the SMV scale is only looking for… Read more »

myrealitie
myrealitie
6 years ago

I really hope I’m not too late to the party here, because I have something really important to say. Do you really believe that a virgin who marries a man who does not inspire sexual arousal is going to have a great marriage? Is she really more “bonded” to her beta husband? If she is attractive, is she really impervious to the good looking sexy men who may give her the eye? I agree that women reach an epiphany at some point that they have to stop dating exciting but unreliable guys, but I don’t think past sexual experience is… Read more »

Amit
6 years ago

Re: 50 Shades

The anthem…

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

“Sharing living costs with cohabitation is a big plus. But I’m not sure it’s good enough to give up the freedom”

need to check out the legal. In many jurisdictions you are “on the clock” and will automatically wife up in the financials

“my wife asked me to take her to see 50 Shades”

tell her you will take her if she wears a BDSM collar, for fun

Jeremy
6 years ago

@myrealitie

There is happy medium out there, and I personally always counsel women towards it.

Indeed, please describe your “happy medium”, in detail. And then, please describe how consistent your definition of a “happy medium” is across the female landscape. And then, just for fun, please haul out your diary/journal since before you were 18, and collate all your descriptions of “happy medium” throughout your life.

/Guys, prepare for brain vomit.

zdr01dz
6 years ago

Bowl of raw vegetables for lunch – Check
World Of Tanks in monitor 1 – Check
Angry comments section from RM open in monitor 2 – Check

I’m in heaven.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@girl I think the tl;dr of all the responses you’re getting here is pretty simple: pay attention to what you and other women DO, not what they SAY or THINK. Actions speak a helluva lot louder than words, and I can tell you that in my experience women’s actions don’t line up with any of the words you’re typing here. And if these dudes sound mad, they are. But not at you, per se. You’re just the messenger. They’re mad at a culture that tossed them aside, treated them as toxic waste, lied to them, strip mined them for value,… Read more »

myrealitie
myrealitie
6 years ago

@Jeremy – what point are you trying to make? I am merely stating that some characteristics that are sexy are known to make someone an undesirable partner, such as very high novelty seeking, for example. This is true whether we are talking about the male race car driving alcoholic or the female porn star, as extreme examples. A happy medium is some combination of sexy and reliable. For women that looks like someone physically fit, with a backbone and self respect, who does not take shit (passes shit tests and uses some dread game), and who maneuvers through the world… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Glenn …One of my wife’s older sisters married a traditional, older guy and she was quite traditional herself. During the post baby time, my ex became increasingly derisive and insulting towards me publicly. Escalating or ignoring didn’t help. She simply acted like she hated me and began being very insulting to me when we were with her family particularly. This sister, Regina, finally couldn’t take it anymore after one particularly egregious episode. She actually told my then wife that she wouldn’t have us over her house anymore because she was embarrassed for me and ashamed for her. She told my… Read more »

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