In the last comment thread Rational Male regular, Glenn, had an interesting exchange that went like this:
My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on me by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my relationship with my daughter along the way. So much destruction and pain.
I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? She was hot, there were always good looking guys willing to fuck her – I mean, is it just inevitable for some women?
As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity. In Anger Management I detailed the anger men direct at themselves, not at the women who followed a natural predictable ‘flow’ of rationalizations and social conventions they can be expected to as their conditions in life dictate. Naturally any anger a man may deal with or express in this regard is always presumed to be directed towards women. A feminine dominant social order is one founded on the innate solipsism of women.
Now, before I dig in a bit deeper here, I want to make clear that while Glenn’s comment started my thinking process about this week’s topic, what I’m going to get at here isn’t a reflection on anything personal. His story of being “turned on” by a wife he believed was playing on his team is a very common one related by many a post-divorced man using the hindsight of a Red Pill lens.
I’m adding this caveat since only Glenn can really say for himself whether his mindset at the time he first met, and later married, the wife who turned on him was colored by Blue Pill idealism and / or a Beta self-perception. My guess, as with most men in his situation, was that he actually had what was a realistic expectation of a reciprocal relationship based on what he thought would be her genuine appreciation of his efforts and merits.
Betas at the Epiphany
I’ve discussed in several prior threads the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy women use in both the short and long term. What I think needs a bit more explanation is the long term effects of that strategy on the Beta man’s mindset as a result of his fem-centric conditioning.
When a woman approaches and enters into her Epiphany Phase, she has a limbic understanding that her genetic chips need to be cashed in with a man who has ‘proper’ long term provisioning potential. For the greater part, those men are at least expected by women to have a Blue Pill, Beta conditioning that will make them more compliant with, now, what’s becoming an unignorable open Hypergamy.
These are the men Sheryl Sandberg describes as,
“…someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.”
These are nice euphemisms used to describe a man willing to accept his position of powerlessness in the grand scheme of feminine-primacy and open Hypergamy for his participation in realizing women’s dominant sexual strategy.
The Beta man encountering this new found attraction convinces himself that women’s interest in him is genuine and organic. In a sense it is, but although this attraction (not to be confused with arousal) is perceived as genuine on the part of women, it’s an attraction born of necessity. That necessity is the need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.
A Beta at the Epiphany phase believes his ship has finally come in and his self-righteous AFC strategy of patience and perseverance will be rewarded. The social conventions at the time make him believe he’s to be more lauded for ‘forgiving’ a woman’s past, irrespective of whether he can expect praise for looking past her misgivings.
The Alpha Widow or carousel riding wife-to-be may then convince herself that she in fact actually sees an Alpha potential, or a potential for long term success, in ‘settling’ on that Beta in the long term. While I have had men relate horror stories about women knowing that they were settling and being insecure about their futures before or at the time of their wedding, I’m going to suggest that this foreknowledge is rarely a conscious aspect of women’s insight. “Turning” on their husband-to-be later in is life rarely a preconceived plan, but it is a predictable outcome for men who persist in a Beta mindset throughout their marriages.
Getting Her Settled Best
Saving the Best continues to be a seminal post on Rational Male, not the least of which because so many men could relate to the experience. However, this may not have been the experience of discovering a sexual past his wife had no intention of ever allowing him to share with her , but rather the expectation men have of receiving a woman’s ‘sexual best’ in marriage. That may not amount to the sexual experimentation she had in her Party Years, but for a Beta who believes his patience and virtue are to be rewarded at long last it is an expectation of enjoying the same or better sexual urgency his wife-to-be shared with her past lovers.
That Beta believes it’s his turn, because why else would a woman commit to a lifetime investment in a man she didn’t think was her best option?
Remember, during the Epiphany Phase a woman’s rationale for choosing the Beta for a long term investment is because she’s “experienced it all” and finally “knows better than to keep dating the Bad Boys who don’t appreciate her.” Thus the Beta believes he must be the best option for her by virtue of her investment in that belief.
And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, “…in time, nothing’s sexier.”
For the Alpha Widow marrying the Beta-in-waiting, the comparison of his sexual appeal with prior lovers conflicts with her need to finalize the long term security she couldn’t with her previous Alphas (or the men she perceived as Alpha). Thus comes reserved, self-restrained and self-conscious sex with her new Beta provider. She knows that sex with her Beta lacks the intensity of her prior lovers, but falls back on her Epiphany Phase rationalizations that she’s “doing it for the right reasons this time”.
That right reason being of course getting pregnant to further consolidate long term provisioning.
Our Beta simply lacks the same sexual experience as his wife-to-be to know any better (unless of course he finds proof of that experience later), but he gradually suspects her progressive lack of passion, reservations and self-consciousness by comparing it to porn or some of the other women’s he’s had sex with.
Social conventions abound for women to rely on as they become less incentivized to have sex with their Beta after the first child. Body image considerations, ‘mismatched libidos’ and “well, sex is supposed to taper off after marriage, everyone knows that” are just some of the prepackaged tropes ready for use.
Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. The sex “reward”, the ‘cookie time for good boy’, for desired behavior or performance ‘turns’ off, or sex is used as an intermittent reward for desired behavior (i.e. Choreplay). Sex becomes a utility; a positive reinforcer for her Beta increasing his provisioning capacity rather than the true visceral enjoyment she had with her past lovers.
This new functionality sex represents to a wife becomes ‘turning’ on her husband who believed he would always be her most intimate priority. In the instance of a woman marrying her ‘Alpha Provider’ this may in fact be the case, but as with the hierarchies of love that Alpha doesn’t have the same concern with, and didn’t marry his wife under the same pre-expectations a Beta does.
For the man who persists in his Beta mindset (or the guy who regresses into that mindset) this ‘turning’ becomes more and more pronounced. The turning comes out of the bedroom and into other aspects of their relationship – finances, familial ties, her expectations of his ambitiousness, his asserting himself at work or with their mutual friends – on more and more fronts he’s compared to other men and the ghosts of the Alphas she knows or has known.
Even though the Beta is aware his children are now his wife’s true priority, his Blue Pill conditioning still predisposes him to sacrifices. Again, he meets with ready-made social conventions that shame his discontent; “Is sex all that’s important to you?” It shouldn’t be, because it’s really “what’s on the inside that counts”, but he can’t shake the feeling he’s slipping out of her respect.
This is when Beta Dad doubles down. His Blue Pill expectations of himself require an all-consuming, self-sacrificing predisposition. The horse will work harder. His wife may have lost respect for him by this point, but his sense of honor and duty press him on. He doesn’t want to be like his oppressive or non-present father was. He wants to ‘out-support’ his father’s ghost, or what he believes ‘other guys’ would do when their marriages get tough.
So he waits it out, but she’s ‘turned’ on him by this point. It wasn’t planned, but all of his martyr-like determination only makes her that much more resentful for having settled on this Beta. After a certain stressing point, her disinterest or indignation goes even beyond his capacity to stay committed to a losing investment. These are the guys who tell me, “Damn Rollo, where where you when I was 30? I wish I’d known then what I know now.”
Do all marriages and relationships follow this schedule? No, but it’s important that men know the signs, understand what’s really expected of them and know when they’re being settled on despite all a woman’s self-interested refutations of that. It’s important they realize that performance isn’t limited to how well they meet a woman’s expectations, but that performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself.
It’s important that he lives in his own Frame and that any woman, wife or otherwise, participates in his Frame at his pleasure. Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a preconditioned responsibility to forgive a woman’s sexual strategy while still being gushingly appreciative that she chose him to settle on.
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
@ Rollo “Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. ” I agree with this but disagree that there is only one counter-move here. Your assertion of “keep frame” is one way to make sure the woman stays your wife. Another would be… keep her barefoot and pregnant until well past epiphany. I have said this before so I will say it again. I don’t know any women with more than 3 kids who is divorced. I know _plenty_ that have 1-2 kids who are on the… Read more »
They all turn on you, eventually. The only question is when. Get used to it and remember the best word in the RP dictionary: “NEXT!” Even if you’re married, there’s plenty of women out there, many of whom treasure the pre-selection aspect of “married”(In name only) men. Oneitis should never be part of any LTR, even marriage. I saw with my own eyes, male relatives who pined for their deceased wives daily and could never get over their passing; while in contrast, female relatives who became widows thrived, remembering the husband twice a year on birthdays and anniversaries, but otherwise… Read more »
re: “Do all marriages and relationships follow this schedule? No, but” No, but. Inarguably more than 90% do follow it. BTW it’s not the arrival of the first or second child that causes the woman to deprioritize sex. Since having kids is so deayed nowadays, we now know that the honeymoon period is intrinsic to living together. The doomsday clock starts at the surge in oxytocin when the woman falls in love, which typically is close in time to moving in together. The constant contact causes the woman to fall out of love quite rapidly, i.e. within the few years… Read more »
Steve Harvey is preaching a lot of blue pill utility on his show. Also always using the term cookie, and preaching how men should always qualify to women.
And is also why there shouldn’t be anybody sending their sons to his mentors camp thing. I imagine it would be a set up for constant disappointment and frustration.
Beta men should have one requirement and one requirement only before marriage. That his girl friend/potential bride to be fuck his brains out for at least 6 months in the most submissive way possible, fulfilling all his sex fantasies that he always had when he was young and could not get with her or someone like her because they were busy riding the alpha cock carousel. Then at least if it all comes crashing down later he won’t feel like a fool because he did get something akin to her sexual best first and for a good amount of time.… Read more »
” The constant contact causes the woman to fall out of love quite rapidly
I’ve found that women in general get meaner, or you could say stop pretending to have a nice core personality, at a point of familiarity. At work, with friends,etc.
Men will give long term friends hard times and stuff, but the boundaries that you end up finding out about each other they always keep aware of.
Women, familiarity seems to mean to them no boundaries. Or at least severely blurring them.
It strikes me that the reason this happens is that the woman comes to a more realistic assessment of her husband’s “performance” potential and that the beta will not transform into the alpha that she hoped he would be.
I’ve always been fascinated with the fact that arranged marriages generally end in happier marriages. I suspect the level of tolerance is a key ignored personality aspect.
“The doomsday clock starts at the surge in oxytocin when the woman falls in love, which typically is close in time to moving in together. The constant contact causes the woman to fall out of love quite rapidly, i.e. within the few years maximum of the honeymoon period”. I’ve always known this which is why if men get married they better be doing it first and foremost because they want to have a family and children and not think that having a wife means his sexual needs will be met and he doesn’t have to think about them anymore. I… Read more »
“She turned on me”. She never was on your side. There is no frame control in this situation. No shit test deflecting skills will matter. Nothing is going to save your marriage because she was rotten from the get go. Stop trying to rescue them with game. Learn how to pick the right one from the start. Someone who’s daddy was really captain of the ship. Someone who is elated to take direction and be properly owned by her man.
@WCB, re: “at a point of familiarity” The currently favored explanation of this *universally* observed post-honeymoon period behavior of women is incest avoidance. The constant contact makes the woman’s body believe she is having sex with her brother or something. Two obvious ways to avoid this are 1) Move out, and hardly ever see her except to have sex. 2) Don’t move out but get other girlfriends, which will reset her doomsday clock. Alternatively some men are suggesting 0) Never get familiar or brotherly in any way. Always be the bad guy, the stranger, the boss, the big guy in… Read more »
Grasseaters update. Half of young married Japanese are sexless.
Yet another Excellent Post, Rollo. It rings very true for me in experience – Marriage 1.0 and 2.0 and the different approaches I took – and gives words to some things I realized but couldn’t verbalize. Let me just say:
“Damn Rollo, where where you when I was 23? I wish I’d known then what I know now.”
@neobushi – I’ll second your words – You got to pick the right one from the start, and you got to know the RP and yourself before even attempting that.
@jf12 interesting report, but those aren’t the grasseaters. Grasseaters also cross heavily over with NEETs, basically shut-ins that aren’t married, employed, students, or doing anything else with their lives.
Haha you old people are funny, nothing funnier seeing middle age people reminisce and unable to apply the wisdom they gained. A little dark traid on my part hehe.
How mainstream is this in the United States, working/middle class? In poorer communities and in latin america there is more awareness of “red pill” knowledge. I root for the white brothers lol, 18-30 deltas-betas, but as an undisclosed race guy Rollo, is it getting better for whites in the U.S. ? Is red pill moor mainstream? Is everyone more aware more than before
A couple of years ago before discovering the ‘sphere I had a date where the question of long term goals came up. After listing mine she asked about marriage (her 34yr never married) and why it wan’t on my list. I replied “what’s the point of marriage?” she had no answer other than she wanted it, and therefore I should also. Recognizing there wasn’t going to be a second date, nor would I getting laid, I decided instead to explore her mind rather than body. “Tell me what benefits marriage has for me” I said. Awkward silence and then some… Read more »
Cholo January 19th, 2015 at 12:07 am . Oneitis should never be part of any LTR, even marriage. Bestis should be though. If she thinks you are the best she can do it holds things together better than super glue. All my early dating actions were aimed at helping convince herself of that. “That guy gives you the tingles? Try him out if you want. I’ll help. You deserve the best you can get.” Of course I was trying out other women. Her (giving me a nice suck): “You taste like another woman. Ick.” Me: “Of course. I just had… Read more »
I’ve mentioned an attractive lady at office here in the past and have long wondered whether it is legit to draw conclusions from what I see, b/c what I see is a configuration as described in the article, and her behaviour lets me suspect she’s looking for “Mr. Plan B”.
@Glenn: Your story is touching, man. Please accept my virtual invitation to guzzle some virtual fire-water together 🙂
@Rollo: As always, thanks for this enlightening article. Expectingly awaiting your announcement. Tension heightened …
Badpainter January 19th, 2015 at 1:49 am It us as though the highest form of validation is a man’s willingness to sacrifice everything for her, possibly including his life. That is and always has been true. I wrote in a comment here some years back “We are expendable. Get over it.” The highest validation for a woman is that she has a protector. That is why the bad boy makes her hot. Among other things. She has visions of “changing him” while he remains her protector. Of course what you really want to do is change her. Teach her to… Read more »
And you know what else? The fm has always expressed the most absolute disdain for Betas. “They don’t know what to do in emergencies. You are decisive. Give orders. Take action.”
Glenn’s story makes a bit of a conundrum; (more or less quoting) “I looked back and blamed myself for not being more alpha.” Yet if you care enough to look back on this bitch and blame yourself then you are locked in as a beta-mindset anyway. I’m not trying to call you out or criticize you but it’s just a conundrum worth looking into and understanding. You can’t blame yourself for not being more alpha. Alpha springs from an apathy towards social conventions among other traits. An alpha wouldn’t even care if anyone thinks he’s an alpha. And you should’t… Read more »
@ M. Simon “tis more blessed to give than to receive” That is the FI’s instruction to men; give till it hurts, till you die. It’s the root of the conditioning, and training of betas. It’s the unspoken admission that women only want to want, they only desire to receive. They have nothing to give in return, because giving is something they don’t/can’t/won’t do. Anything a man wants has to be taken, or compelled, forced, stolen, coerced, or manipulated from them. Nothing will be given freely. This why intimacy is an illusion, and vulnerability is shit test or men. This… Read more »
@ M Simon I agree with you that decisiveness and self belief works wonders with women. It doesn’t matter at all how you treat her or whether you put her down or say inappropriate things in front of her friends. She is hooked because she feels safe in the hands of a man. You definitely need to convince the woman that she now has the best she can have. No matter how you control the frame. You might not even want a LTR with her. She will still respond to you and come to you whenever you want her to.… Read more »
If I’m coming off like some guy who never made mistakes like this
I long ago accepted that there are generally two ways guys find this community:
1) “I can’t see what mistakes I’m making when I try to get a woman.”
2) “I got a woman. It was a mistake.”
My ex-wife after the first child upped her cheating to blatant levels with her recently graduated doctor boss. Hardly bothering to hide this cheating from me as I later discovered she did with her AF. I guess I was just the next beta on the foodchain, though it’s my own fault for being so beta. I used to wonder why she would fuck that fat bald loser, who can barely approach women. Though I found she was also fucking her old frat boy love for our entire marriage. Heh I failed at being the best beta and the best alpha.… Read more »
Oh and my wife clearly revealed her many alpha fucks to me before I married her. I accepted it after punching a whole in the wall and breaking up with her for a week. Oh how I allowed the alpha in me to be killed. I killed myself. Truly became such a beta. Now we are both sad. She knows what I could be and am becoming, but with her I went full on beta. Shouldn’t have done that. It’s good to be able to think of the shit tests and fitness tests I failed and accept it rather then… Read more »
To be honest, there is only so much you can do. Just as Beyonce has (probably) regularly gotten cheated on by Jay-Z, so will the equivalent happen to the capo di tutti capi’s of alphas, particularly when matched with the wrong woman (e.g. a Cluster B personality disorder). The mistake many game proponents make (not directed at Rollo) is, coming from a more analytically minded background, underwritten by logic, rationality and cause and effect, is simply seeing game as the application of some correct formula: crack the correct code, apply it and reap the bounty unencumbered. No-one is omnipotent (not… Read more »
Oh I’m Snowden. Going with a new name here. Love all your comments. Sick that men younger then me look up to me. Lol what a joke. Look up to me?
But they do. Just because I can get a plate. Ugh. Feminine conditioning has destroyed men. At least I have all my old Clint Eastwood movies and not the garbage the young men are being fed.
attractive blonde. The spitting image of the cheating wife who just gave Kurt Lippert the hassle of a lifetime, out there in Covina CA.
Thanks Rollo. Your writings will be famous in a couple of years. One aspect to be highlighted in view of this post: what happens with those wifes when the husband get “turned on”? From personal experience with many women over 30 with one or two kids: they open up for a new Alfa for fucks. They go wild and feral in bed with this Lover. It offered me fantastic sex. And they verbally absolutely despise their husbands who cater for income and who are working hard to please them at home. Its beta bucks turned back into cheating alfa fucks… Read more »
Badpainter January 19th, 2015 at 3:23 am They have nothing to give in return, because giving is something they don’t/can’t/won’t do. Anything a man wants has to be taken, or compelled, forced, stolen, coerced, or manipulated from them. Nothing will be given freely. They can be trained (with great difficulty) to submit. It has taken me 40 years. I’m starting to get willing submissiveness. And they will give quite a bit if you manipulate them. Or they submit willingly. All I can say is that I was very lucky that my first GF (at age 18 – ’62) started me… Read more »
The progressively harder the hook is set (marriage, children), the less need to keep baiting it. Unless you are making her actively want to keep baiting it, it becomes an increasingly resented chore for which there is no added reward, because she already has you over a legal barrel.
Which is to say, again, Briffault’s Law.
Always Briffault’s Law.
Wrote this a week after our second son was born 😀 Good to see it adds up with what you write Rollo… Loved reading this post, and of course, the scary chilling comments.
The fact that a woman would need to be ‘taught’ to put her husband as her first intimate priority confirms everything ever written about Hypergamy and women’s pluralistic sexual strategy.
It is horrible actually. After reading you for about a year now… I’ve realized no woman is exempt from hypergamy… it’s horrible. It’s true what you’ve written about opportunistic love versus the kind of love men usually exhibit – totally different. Men are way too idealistic if they’re “beta” – they really do have horrible issues with putting the woman of their dreams on a pedestal. And NO woman likes hearing that (unless its rare confirmation of his love – but certainly not all the time). Husbands should be wide awake to their wife’s real personality/shortcomings, she’s human & they… Read more »
Sun Wukong January 19th, 2015 at 3:58 am I don’t remember how I found this community. Might have been a blog comment or a semi random search. But why do I stay? Well I want to improve my Game. There is always stuff to learn. And I like passing on what I know. And it is easy because my pain at learning RP was so far in the past that I can’t remember the hurt much at all. It has been covered with plates. If you live long enough you get over it. And then you get to enjoy what… Read more »
nikochoski January 19th, 2015 at 3:26 am There is nothing you can do with a man who wants to be a full time beta except avoid associating with him. I generally avoided girls with husbands and boyfriends. I did tell one girl with a husband to leave me alone and go back to him. Those women are mostly pathetic. I have only met one woman who had even the slightest clue about how to keep me. I’ve been with her 40 years now. Four children. Pleasant most of the time? Hell no. Barely tolerable. But interesting. Nothing is perfect. –… Read more »
I think the ‘Alpha Provider’ might be more common than many of the posters here think.
I know a guy who’s been married almost twenty years and still has sex every other day. He’s not the most alpha I’ve met, but I asked him once how he keeps his wife sexually interested. He says he uses “dread game” and just “expects” sex and his wife performs.
@ Melmoth – There is no doubt that I pedestalized my erstwhile wife and I was Blue Pill in most ways. But my regret is due to the consequences of divorce, particularly wrt the fucked up relationship my adult daughter and I have. I always wanted to be a father and husband, and my only regret is that it got all fucked up and it seems to me that I could have used what I know of the Red Pill to make my marriage work. I don’t miss her – I wouldn’t put up with her for a moment these… Read more »
Rollo; is there any translations from your book? (spanish or german)
“I’ve always been fascinated with the fact that arranged marriages generally end in happier marriages. I suspect the level of tolerance is a key ignored personality aspect.”
Thanks for pointing that fact out – I always forget about it. Please explain your second sentence though, I don’t understand it (could be my english)
[…] email@example.com (Vox) BETA men worry far too much about keeping their unhappy wives. If what Rollo describes is what is happening to you, my advice is not to worry about it, but focus on easing her path out […]
“performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself.”
Fantastically well put.
Good stuff, Maynard.
Glenn January 19th, 2015 at 8:00 am As I told a women last night, “No, I’ll never be monogamous.” She asked, “Why?” My reply,” Because I don’t want to be.” I told the fm something like that when we were going together and again when we married. She actually (well mostly) enjoys dread game. It gets her motor running. And she likes that. It is very important that they understand that they can’t own you. I did make one proviso – “I’ll always tell you what is happening and you have the option of winning me back.” That always makes… Read more »
A devastating expose’ ! I love how you basically completely sum up proper red pill relationship management at the very end with the succinct: It’s important they realize that performance isn’t limited to how well they meet a woman’s expectations, but that performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself. It’s important that he lives in his own Frame and that any woman, wife or otherwise, participates in his Frame at his pleasure. Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a… Read more »
@girlwithadragonflytatoo, re: putting your husband first.
All women know they ought to put their husband first, but almost all women mightily resist doing so. Apparently women have been fed the lie that husbands have a magical power to force women to want to do what the women ought to do. So since the women don’t want to do it, they blame their husbands for failing.
@Sun Wukong, re: “I got a woman. It was a mistake.”
Too true! “So now I’m praying for the end of time” etc.
Sexual conflict is the overarching explanation of everything involving sexual reproduction. The female’s main role is to resist the male’s attempts to reproduce. Notice: attempts plural. Hence even after mating, the female tries to spurn the male, to get him to act like he doesn’t own her.
I had a different experience.
Two life events seemingly improved my sex life.
1) As my career began to improve my wife amped up the sex.
2) After our first child was born once again my wife amped up the sex.
I would never cheat or leave my wife but I suspect that the female version of mate guarding was involved in both.
I would never cheat or leave my wife
Just don’t let her know that.
I just want to add a piece of semi-useless trivia to sex after pregnancy. My wife couldn’t breast feed either of our sons for health reasons. She had HELLP Syndrome at the end of her first pregnancy and couldn’t produce enough milk after her second pregnancy. I know that my sample size is N=1 but after her breasts returned to their normal size they hadn’t changed. In fact she is 43 years old and they are still 95% the same as when first started dating when she was 18. Maybe that’s the result of luck, or maybe it is because… Read more »
re: “She turned on me”
Also said of insane dogs, for the same reason. It is 100% insane for a woman to turn on a nice husband, and yet almost all women do, on almost exactly the same schedule.
Rob – “Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a preconditioned responsibility to forgive a woman’s sexual strategy while still being gushingly appreciative that she chose him to settle on.”
I wonder is the male Praying Mantis is “gushingly appreciative” when the female eats him during sex?
“She turned on me” Yep, dealt with that. To add my own data point to the study. Pregnant right out of the gates after marriage, then Irish twins so the second one was right there with no notice. Full blue pill slide along with precipitous drop in sex, respect etc. I was not so beta that I accepted my fate and I went out and had an affair. The other woman was married, no kids except as a step mother. So I banged this little hottie for a while and it restored my dignity. It also scared me, for I… Read more »
@ Sun Wukong
Just don’t let her know that.
You are 100% correct. One time I was at a shoe store and my wife caught me looking at an attractive brunette. On the inside I cringed. Nothing was said but that night when I laid down in bed she grabbed me and it was sex city. When she knows that other chicks are floating around it keeps her on her game.
“Once a dog turns on you, you never trust it again. The only thing to do is put it down. The same with a traitor.”
3 … 2 … 1 …
Ever woman lurker’s head exploded at the idea that *her* own husband no longer trusts her, at all, in any way, because she recognizes her own insanity. Sh.
I Queued it up to the good part at 8 minutes and 7 seconds. A wife’s first realization that her beta provider husband has feelings. haha! Don’t be this guy.
Agent p……Treat her like a 14 year old who happens to be able to drive.
Well put….well put. If there is one piece of advice most useful in dealing with women, this is it.
One piece of the Sheryl Sandberg quote doesn’t make sense. “…someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” Someone who wants an equal partner? Que? That runs directly counter to the reality of hypergamy. Women aren’t attracted to men unless they are taller, stronger, smarter, more talented and wealthier. If you as a man aren’t +1 in every column women won’t find you attractive. Any woman who marries an equal is settling big time. She… Read more »
re: Michele Weiner Davis. The first clue that she is completely wrong is the subtitle: “A Couple’s Guide to Boosting Their Marriage Libido”. http://www.divorcebusting.com/sb_sex_starved_marriage.htm She blames the *couple*, *their*, *marriage*, ANYTHING to avoid blaming the woman. And on the very first page “I am so tired of reading articles in women’s magazines and watching talk shows that perpetuate the myth that men are always more interested in sex than women. This is a bunch of hooey! There are many, many women who would LOVE to have a spouse who wants to have sex, touch or kiss. I’ve spoken to many… Read more »
Barring anabolic steroid use, it is a physical impossibility for a woman to want sex, think about sex or perform for sex more than a man:
Men will strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up for the possibility of pussy in another dimension. No woman is willing to blow herself up for a penis. – Joe Rogan
If Michele Weiner Davis (hyphenated last name noted) and her friends are having trouble getting their men interested in sex with them, they need to look at how they present themselves sexually.
“Also said of insane dogs, for the same reason. It is 100% insane for a woman to turn on a nice husband, and yet almost all women do, on almost exactly the same schedule.” It isn’t 100% insane. It’s legally sanctioned, financially profitable and society will bend over backwards to rationalize for her. A modern woman would have to be crazy *not* to cash in. Which is why a modern man would be 100% insane to marry, full stop. Never conflate investing and gambling. It becomes more and more obvious to me every day that game is a bandage for… Read more »
Re: Their husbands simply aren’t interested
3. Boring missionary only because everything else is demeaning
4. High transaction costs (resistance, make him work for it)
5. Repeated inferred rejection due to #4and he gets the point.
6. Ambiguous signaling on her part that is missed entirely because of #s 4 and 5
7. Concluding in his fault for lack interest in playing her game which he can’t win anyway.
@ jf12 The first clue that she is completely wrong is the subtitle: “A Couple’s Guide to Boosting Their Marriage Libido”. So true. Couples guide? haha! If you want more sex from your wife. 1) Lose your fat gut 2) Lift some weights and/or be athletic 3) Go +1 in your career or business 4) Get some game 5) Tell her you want her Problem solved. If that doesn’t work I’m out of ideas. Early in my career as a beta-ish husband I tried Appeals to Reason. Rollo is 100% correct. My SMV dropped 3 points just because I opened… Read more »
“…think that having a wife means his sexual needs will be met and he doesn’t have to think about them anymore. I think that’s the main reason why men end up cheating and leaving their wife (often for a younger woman) and the the wife is baffled as to why..then wants to cry about how the man is to blame, the man is the cheater who just wants to ditch her for a younger woman. Sometimes that is the case but I imagine often it is still the wife’s fault for not taking care of her husband sexually. That would… Read more »
Now compare and contrast the Michele Weiner Davis speech with one from this most fem-centric of fashionable therapists, Esther Perel. Look closely at her distinctions between “adventure”, “risk” and “self-confidence” as desire triggers – a/k/a AF – and “comfort”, “security” and “selflessness” as desire/erotic killers – a/k/a BB. Even if you gag on the conclusions she makes, look at how evo psych and hypergamy concepts are slowly beginning to sink in and get some recognition as “breakthroughs” in so-called mainstream LTR therapy.
From elsewhere the comment is: “And if you’re Catholic, divorce is not an option, i.e., you won’t be able to get a second wife unless you want to go to hell, so it’s either be ALPHA or give up women entirely.”
As has been pointed out, desire is not negotiable–I no longer desire to be anything to the mad bitch that turned. That leaves one option.
girlwithadragonflytattoo – “Husbands should be wide awake to their wife’s real personality/shortcomings, she’s human & they need to keep that in mind…”
At any point does the woman consider the man’s humanity without the metaphorical emasculation?
And since you’re here…
How does “opportunistic” love benefit the man if at all?
@ ReticentPill – I try to resist coming to the kind of negative conclusions that you have come to – but I’m finding less and less reason to do so. In fact, as I digest the Sexual Conflict Theory stuff jf12 is sharing, I’m afraid my defenses are just crumbling. It’s the simplicity of the ideas that make it unavoidable. Women spend most of their energy resisting men – men spend their energy trying to unify with women, to become closer, to gain agreement. When you factor in the different costs (we have one million one dollar shots, they have… Read more »
“Young”? Over 40 is not exactly young.
I’m a lurker on this blog and I’ll like to say something in regards to the whole “Alpha Widow” reasoning. You’re correct in this regard. I’m a fairly young man (mid 20s) and I grew up with 12 girl cousins. Ten of my cousins were very attractive women (not to toot my family’s own horn but we’re all pretty attractive). Anyway, most of us were close to the same age growing up, and looking back, I can definitely assure you all that most women turn Alpha Widows by their 18th birthday. I’ve had many of my cousins cry at our… Read more »
@Bad Painter – Of course some women do consider their husband’s humanity (I adore my husband and even after almost 8 years, I do care immensely about his needs and love meeting them always, we (except for weird times like late pregnancy or right after birth) usually have amazing sex and almost daily. I just look at him, like sometimes he just walks in our house coming home from work, and I seriously get turned on just seeing him – he looks so damn in his “frame” maybe or maybe its that he’s desired by other women (and I know… Read more »
As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity.
If the next book lays out these chilling truths with with the kind of enlightened clarity you’ve written in this post, we’ll be buying the #1 best-selling book for the next 11 years.
Reblogged this on Livefearless and commented:
Rollo Tomassi writes
“As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity.”
If the next book lays out these chilling truths with with the kind of enlightened clarity you’ve written in this post, we’ll be buying the #1 best-selling book for the next 11 years.
@girlwithadragonflytattoo To me, its possible for women to rise above their hypergamous tendencies No. Your examples you just illustrated with showed that it’s your husband that overcomes your hypergamy through his actions. You cannot escape your biology just like he can’t escape his polygynous nature without your making a concerted effort to maintain his attention. To say otherwise is to set yourself up for failure. The whole thing starts with a man’s burden of performance resulting in the woman being inspired to perform for him. If he ever stops, things will end. Her hypergamy will assert itself when any bonding… Read more »
“It’s not her wanting to leave, it’s her lingering around, comfortable with her disrespected Beta, and his inability to change that situation. ” That’s the situation I find myself in. I confronted her recently and said that our sex life (1/mo and when she’s horny) isn’t good enough for me. She says she doesn’t want sex because I only approach her when I want sex, and I don’t cuddle on the couch with her enough. But at this point, I don’t care to cuddle with a crabby, negative bitch who doesn’t want to sleep with me. What do I, a… Read more »
Say nothing to her, but make a few changes that make you more attractive to all women. Start working out, update your wardrobe, get a new haircut, and embrace the attention you get by flirting in front of her with other women. Dread game. When she complains, let her know she’s competing with them by giving vague answers with a smirk. Let her fume. Then enjoy angry sex.
@ girlwithadragonflytattoo After reading you for about a year now… I’ve realized no woman is exempt from hypergamy… it’s horrible. As a man I don’t have a problem with the basic concept of hypergamy. The fact that women want to marry up makes rational, evolutionary sense. However I don’t respect opportunistic branch swinging. That’s not cool. As I see it the real problem with hypergamy is that the average man doesn’t know it exists. The MSM and popular culture in general have it on a 24/7 news blackout. Feminists have labeled it too offensive to even mention. Thus the average… Read more »
Hypergamy is much more than just ‘marrying up’.
Hypergamy is much more than just ‘marrying up’.
I’m referring to the dictionary definition of hypergamy, not necessarily the knock on effects like branch swinging.
Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as “marrying up”) is the act or practice of marrying someone wealthier, or of higher caste or status than oneself. Although the term is not gendered, it is generally used by social scientists to refer to women marrying higher-status men, rather than to men marrying higher-status women.
It’s like you were married with me. I can’t understand how you can so eloquently describe the intimate moments of my marriage and its destruction. Young guys please listen, this is truth distilled.
Thank you or your response to my first question.
I would note you completely avoided my second question. Which I take as an being an answer itself. So I thank you for your response to my second question as well.
Bad Painter – I think obviously opportunistic kind of love is complicated – to answer your question directly? I don’t believe men get anything out of it to a certain extent (hence the MGTOW crowd I suppose), but at the same time, some men really do get their needs still met (and a caring, genuine wife) even though she chose him based on her looking at love through opportunistic lenses. Its complicated. Obviously, a woman who is playing the field and then settling later for a BB provider that doesn’t turn her on (setting up their sex life for major… Read more »
@tgwadft, re: “its possible for women to rise above their hypergamous tendencies”
Yes! It’s *exactly* as easy for women to do so as for men to rise above their polygamous tendencies.
@jf12, I disagree. There is NO socially mandated expectation for a woman to do anything but embrace her innate Hypergamy. It’s called being prudent.
Conversely there is nothing BUT an expectation for men to rise above and sublimate their polygamous sexual imperative – for the benefit of women optimizing their “prudent” sexual strategy.
I can tell you from decades of doing so that cuddling doesn’t work. Sun Wukong correctly recommends Dread game. In addition to his suggestions, I add: get yourself new underwear without telling her first. You go to the store and spend a little while and don’t get the cheapest kind.
Thanks for the reply, Sun. Tough thing is, I’m already in shape and dress well. I don’t know if dread game is possible for me – I really don’t want to put my kids through divorce.
@ Rollo Escoffier is entirely correct in his comment about the dark side of hypergamy. As to marriage, sure women want to marry up. But this does not exhaust the effects of hypergamy. Women can marry up–both intrinsically and in their own mind–and still ditch their catch because someone “better” comes along. That is hypergamy at work. Although every woman’s brain is biologically hard-wired for bad behavior not every woman will act on it even if the opportunity presents itself. Healthy men are hard-wired to desire 21 year old Victoria’s Secret models. I have that computer code in my head… Read more »
If only that were true. The strategy is one of polygamy with as many AF men she can bang while her peak SMV is effective, and then consolidating on monogamy with the best BB male her waning SMV can effectively warrant (if at all if she waits too long).
Women’s sexual strategy IS polygamy while it’s effective, and presenting the appearance of virtuousness once monogamy becomes her necessity.
One thing hypergamy is NOT about is females’ selection of good genes etc. The demographic-economic paradox is the big giant red flag that women do not have great pickers of mates. Empowering women simply leads to women choosing not to reproduce. Period.
zdr01dz – “…They seek out the highest status AFBB attainable, get married and start a family.”
We call them unicorns because they are so few in number.
@Rollo, re: “socially mandated expectation”
Ok, but we’ll have to disagree about what society is and what mandated means and what expectation is. The *reproductive* trend of our country is for young women in poverty to get pregnant because of laziness.
Nice reference to blue valentine.
” I don’t know if dread game is possible for me – I really don’t want to put my kids through divorce.”
She’s counting on exactly this as she heads for the door. Female judo is all about using your sense of duty against you.
That’s the thing, ReticentPill – she doesn’t appear to be heading for the door. She’s lingering around. She’s safe and “comfortable” enough here, though I think at bottom, unhappy. And I’m unhappy.
Don’t worry about how she “feels.” She’s already giving her feelings more than enough attention. YOU are the one lingering and soaking up all of her misery. Do you think your kids don’t notice?
You can be an example to your kids and (hopefully) your wife, or you can sit back and become an example to us. Being stagnant has never been a winning strategy in any situation.
From the OP: “And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, ‘…in time, nothing’s sexier.'” Ahhhh….but….as the one who settled her role is only to enjoy his best performance, and grade it. She has nothing’s prove to him. Her performance is over, and since she conned commitment out of her mark it was a obviously a good performance. Now she can relax and enjoy the proceeds of her lies. Now she can get to work punishing the man she conned.… Read more »
@girlwithdragontatoo – Interesting commentary and thanks for clarifying what is chilling. One of the things that struck me when I shared a bit more of my nightmare above is how rarely I actually let people know how hurt I was and am about what was done to me. It was cruel and it wrecked the dreams I had of being a father and a husband, but it seems that society has no real listening to that, or about incel guys or – wait – any male suffering. Really, nobody wants to hear about some divorced guys woes. Anywhere. Friends will… Read more »
ugh Glenn… there are no words 🙁 I’m so sorry.
@ Rollo If only that were true. The strategy is one of polygamy with as many AF men she can bang while her peak SMV is effective, and then consolidating on monogamy with the best BB male her waning SMV can effectively warrant (if at all if she waits too long). Women’s sexual strategy IS polygamy while it’s effective, and presenting the appearance of virtuousness once monogamy becomes her necessity. I believe that is an accurate description of the dark side of hypergamy. But there are other, quantifiable forces in play. Research indicates that intelligence has a strong influence on… Read more »
Disclaimer: I’m not a fan of Tina Fey but I remembered this interview on Stern
(It should be queued up to 26 min and 15s)
Tina Fey has the exact opposite reaction to Alpha males as the semi-attractive PR girl from one of my favorite RM articles of all time.
Good Girls ‘Do’
No doubt both Tina Fey and the PR girl share the same wiring for hypergamy. However other biological and social forces are in play. They offer very different responses to similar stimuli.
We all know this pattern is accurate. If it hasn’t happened to you yet, you’ve seen it happen to a friend or family member. It’s inevitable. So here’s a thought: if most men marry their SMV equal, or sometimes even better when he’s looked at as the BB, then wouldn’t it be smart if you actually wanted kids to find a woman below your SMV to rear children with? If you’re a 7 or 8, marry a 6, be and stay alpha, and the chances are decreased infinitely of falling in said pattern above? Of course, making sure she passes… Read more »
No doubt hypergamy is a powerful driving force. But intelligence is another force that strongly impacts behavior and relationships. Most of the time intelligence pushes people in a positive direction. The General Intelligence Factor The lower-IQ woman is four times more likely to bear illegitimate children than the higher-IQ woman; among mothers, she is eight times more likely to become a chronic welfare recipient. People somewhat below average are 88 times more likely to drop out of high school, seven times more likely to be jailed and five times more likely as adults to live in poverty than people of… Read more »
@Rollo, re: “socially mandated expectation”
I’m just saying that if women wanted to be better thought of by their own men, it would be very easy for them do so. I think it’s a deliberate choice by women to act lousy; that makes women more culpable. Even if some ill-behaved women claim they do what they do because they hear “You go, girl!” all the time, it is still possible for women to refuse to heed their nature’s call, regardless of whether that call is backed by by societal guarantees.