“She turned on me”

turning

In the last comment thread Rational Male regular, Glenn, had an interesting exchange that went like this:

My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on me by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my relationship with my daughter along the way. So much destruction and pain.

I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? She was hot, there were always good looking guys willing to fuck her – I mean, is it just inevitable for some women?

As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity. In Anger Management I detailed the anger men direct at themselves, not at the women who followed a natural predictable ‘flow’ of rationalizations and social conventions they can be expected to as their conditions in life dictate. Naturally any anger a man may deal with or express in this regard is always presumed to be directed towards women. A feminine dominant social order is one founded on the innate solipsism of women.

Now, before I dig in a bit deeper here, I want to make clear that while Glenn’s comment started my thinking process about this week’s topic, what I’m going to get at here isn’t a reflection on anything personal. His story of being “turned on” by a wife he believed was playing on his team is a very common one related by many a post-divorced man using the hindsight of a Red Pill lens.

I’m adding this caveat since only Glenn can really say for himself whether his mindset at the time he first met, and later married, the wife who turned on him was colored by Blue Pill idealism and / or a Beta self-perception. My guess, as with most men in his situation, was that he actually had what was a realistic expectation of a reciprocal relationship based on what he thought would be her genuine appreciation of his efforts and merits.

Betas at the Epiphany

I’ve discussed in several prior threads the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy women use in both the short and long term. What I think needs a bit more explanation is the long term effects of that strategy on the Beta man’s mindset as a result of his fem-centric conditioning.

When a woman approaches and enters into her Epiphany Phase, she has a limbic understanding that her genetic chips need to be cashed in with a man who has ‘proper’ long term provisioning potential. For the greater part, those men are at least expected by women to have a Blue Pill, Beta conditioning that will make them more compliant with, now, what’s becoming an unignorable open Hypergamy.

These are the men Sheryl Sandberg describes as,

“…someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.”

These are nice euphemisms used to describe a man willing to accept his position of powerlessness in the grand scheme of feminine-primacy and open Hypergamy for his participation in realizing women’s dominant sexual strategy.

The Beta man encountering this new found attraction convinces himself that women’s interest in him is genuine and organic. In a sense it is, but although this attraction (not to be confused with arousal) is perceived as genuine on the part of women, it’s an attraction born of necessity. That necessity is the need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.

A Beta at the Epiphany phase believes his ship has finally come in and his self-righteous AFC strategy of patience and perseverance will be rewarded. The social conventions at the time make him believe he’s to be more lauded for ‘forgiving’ a woman’s past, irrespective of whether he can expect praise for looking past her misgivings.

The Alpha Widow or carousel riding wife-to-be may then convince herself that she in fact actually sees an Alpha potential, or a potential for long term success, in ‘settling’ on that Beta in the long term. While I have had men relate horror stories about women knowing that they were settling and being insecure about their futures before or at the time of their wedding, I’m going to suggest that this foreknowledge is rarely a conscious aspect of women’s insight. “Turning” on their husband-to-be later in is life rarely a preconceived plan, but it is a predictable outcome for men who persist in a Beta mindset throughout their marriages.

Getting Her Settled Best

Saving the Best continues to be a seminal post on Rational Male, not the least of which because so many men could relate to the experience. However, this may not have been the experience of discovering a sexual past his wife had no intention of ever allowing him to share with her , but rather the expectation men have of receiving a woman’s ‘sexual best’ in marriage. That may not amount to the sexual experimentation she had in her Party Years, but for a Beta who believes his patience and virtue are to be rewarded at long last it is an expectation of enjoying the same or better sexual urgency his wife-to-be shared with her past lovers.

That Beta believes it’s his turn, because why else would a woman commit to a lifetime investment in a man she didn’t think was her best option?

Remember, during the Epiphany Phase a woman’s rationale for choosing the Beta for a long term investment is because she’s “experienced it all” and finally “knows better than to keep dating the Bad Boys who don’t appreciate her.” Thus the Beta believes he must be the best option for her by virtue of her investment in that belief.

And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, “…in time, nothing’s sexier.”

For the Alpha Widow marrying the Beta-in-waiting, the comparison of his sexual appeal with prior lovers conflicts with her need to finalize the long term security she couldn’t with her previous Alphas (or the men she perceived as Alpha). Thus comes reserved, self-restrained and self-conscious sex with her new Beta provider. She knows that sex with her Beta lacks the intensity of her prior lovers, but falls back on her Epiphany Phase rationalizations that she’s “doing it for the right reasons this time”.

That right reason being of course getting pregnant to further consolidate long term provisioning.

Our Beta simply lacks the same sexual experience as his wife-to-be to know any better (unless of course he finds proof of that experience later), but he gradually suspects her progressive lack of passion, reservations and self-consciousness by comparing it to porn or some of the other women’s he’s had sex with.

Social conventions abound for women to rely on as they become less incentivized to have sex with their Beta after the first child. Body image considerations, ‘mismatched libidos’ and “well, sex is supposed to taper off after marriage, everyone knows that” are just some of the prepackaged tropes ready for use.

The Turning

Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. The sex “reward”, the ‘cookie time for good boy’, for desired behavior or performance ‘turns’ off, or sex is used as an intermittent reward for desired behavior (i.e. Choreplay). Sex becomes a utility; a positive reinforcer for her Beta increasing his provisioning capacity rather than the true visceral enjoyment she had with her past lovers.

This new functionality sex represents to a wife becomes ‘turning’ on her husband who believed he would always be her most intimate priority. In the instance of a woman marrying her ‘Alpha Provider’ this may in fact be the case, but as with the hierarchies of love that Alpha doesn’t have the same concern with, and didn’t marry his wife under the same pre-expectations a Beta does.

For the man who persists in his Beta mindset (or the guy who regresses into that mindset) this ‘turning’ becomes more and more pronounced. The turning comes out of the bedroom and into other aspects of their relationship – finances, familial ties, her expectations of his ambitiousness, his asserting himself at work or with their mutual friends – on more and more fronts he’s compared to other men and the ghosts of the Alphas she knows or has known.

Even though the Beta is aware his children are now his wife’s true priority, his Blue Pill conditioning still predisposes him to sacrifices. Again, he meets with ready-made social conventions that shame his discontent; “Is sex all that’s important to you?” It shouldn’t be, because it’s really “what’s on the inside that counts”, but he can’t shake the feeling he’s slipping out of her respect.

This is when Beta Dad doubles down. His Blue Pill expectations of himself require an all-consuming, self-sacrificing predisposition. The horse will work harder. His wife may have lost respect for him by this point, but his sense of honor and duty press him on. He doesn’t want to be like his oppressive or non-present father was. He wants to ‘out-support’ his father’s ghost, or what he believes ‘other guys’ would do when their marriages get tough.

So he waits it out, but she’s ‘turned’ on him by this point. It wasn’t planned, but all of his martyr-like determination only makes her that much more resentful for having settled on this Beta. After a certain stressing point, her disinterest or indignation goes even beyond his capacity to stay committed to a losing investment. These are the guys who tell me, “Damn Rollo, where where you when I was 30? I wish I’d known then what I know now.”

Do all marriages and relationships follow this schedule? No, but it’s important that men know the signs, understand what’s really expected of them and know when they’re being settled on despite all a woman’s self-interested refutations of that. It’s important they realize that performance isn’t limited to how well they meet a woman’s expectations, but that performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself.

It’s important that he lives in his own Frame and that any woman, wife or otherwise, participates in his Frame at his pleasure. Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a preconditioned responsibility to forgive a woman’s sexual strategy while still being gushingly appreciative that she chose him to settle on.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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jf12
jf12
6 years ago

If hoop girl is Katie Sunshine then I guess I misjudged her facially from the one little video. I got no qualms upgrading her to 7.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Liz

Yes, your fingers accidentally typed characters in the proper order to form proper words and thoughts, the fell on the Post button serendipitously. Totally believable. Almost as believable as accidentally falling on a cock like so many women claim to do.

@zdr01dz

I’m definitely not spoiled, but I’m gonna have to call her a solid 7. I’d smash it, but I’ve met much hotter and a couple times dated slightly hotter with a better body.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

I don’t think I’m stringent, and it’s not like I’m surrounded by babes. Well, not always …

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

So, to be clear, an 8 means she has probably turned down 9s.

Jeremy
6 years ago

jf, I’m guessing every woman has turned down someone that realistically they should regret turning down at some point in their life. The burden of choice is the burden of assessing a man’s entire life potential in making a decision, an impossible task.

Good luck with your choices ladies, I know my value even if you have no clue.

Jeremy
6 years ago

Yeah, but Rollo, he selected his wife too, and she’s *never* been a looker.

Mind you, I don’t hate the man, I don’t even think he was a bad president. I just think he was the best example of a “dog” that humanity has yet produced.

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ Zdro1dz – Of course, Monica Lewinsky disproves nothing I said. And remember, he didn’t even fuck her. He just dropped trou and she sucked. I’ve had exactly the same relationship with a few fatties who weren’t hideous, what exactly does that have to do with the opportunities hot women have? Conversely, do you think Clinton could just drop trou and have a dime start sucking? Nah. And Clinton is a sexual predator with 3 creditable allegations of actual rape against him as well as many sexual assault complaints. I have direct knowledge of his shenanigans due to some connections… Read more »

kobayashii1681
6 years ago

“In Clinton’s defense, look who he married. I’m not saying Monica was anywhere near an HB, but dirty water in the desert is still water.”

Haha…ain’t that truth!

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Women 8s are not rare at all in my book, and I see 9s every day. 10s of course are mostly away from us mortals but definitely not unicorns.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

re: “Sure, a 6 gets approached, but you are going to really sit there and tell me that she gets approached with the same frequency and intensity as a 10?”

Yes on frequency, no on intensity. The 6 is worth a shot to a lot of the much more numerous average guys, but the 10 will get much stalking.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Jeremy Most annoying part to me is that I don’t disqualify people as a conscious act. I just find myself not interested in them. I’ll think about what you’ve said and see what I can do with it. @All debating the HB ratings, I think the discrepancies in how dudes rate a chick are colored by what he’s gotten in the past, what he’s been around, and how far up on a pedestal he puts women as a whole. A good long time friend of mine with a much rougher situation than me has been slowly learning from my discussion… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

The consequences of an SMV where women self-evaluate way too high.

It’s really telling that services like this exist. Not to mention, it’s really pathetic at a customer base exists.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Rollo

Have you ever considered setting up an actual RM forum? The comments sections on WordPress are really painful for bigger discussions, especially on a tablet or phone.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong, re: Invisible Lover concept. It probably works to an extent with women, but Invisible Girlfriend was first, and the Her movie, and the chatline “girlfriends” (which, back when, made a lot of money on just voices) etc all say it works more for men. Women aren’t as thirsty. From the article “it’s hardly a jump to suggest someone might develop feelings for a “believable” virtual human who caters to her every whim. That’s basically the plot of “Her,” isn’t it?” How does an Invisible Boyfriend provide enough drama? How can he do things she can complain about? Most… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12

It seemed to me it’s more about pretending that she found a BB she can actually stand to the people around her. Men are status to a woman. If he’s not giving those things, well she must be talking to him because he does everything else right.

It’s a way to ride the CC while looking “responsible” by appearing to have a really good BB waiting in the wings.

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ JF12 – Based on what? Do you have any data on SMV and frequency of approaches?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

@Glenn, re: “Do you have any data on SMV and frequency of approaches?”

Does anyone? Well, there’s stuff like Tinder, okcupid, etc. Men’s basic frequency strategy: right swipe, right swipe, right swipe, right swipe, right swipe, right swipe,right swipe, right swipe, right swipe. Note: different fro intensity strategy.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Rollo

Ah yeah, fair enough. It definitely would eat more time from your schedule and go against your intentions.

kobayashii1681
6 years ago

@ Sun:
RE: Invisible Lover….
Holy fucking shit!!!!
Customer base will probably be on the rise as the FI continues to make more laws to make us comply!
No fucks shall continue to be given

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong

…I don’t disqualify people as a conscious act.

Neither do I, it was a learned defense mechanism. It needs to be unlearned. In an ideal world, your parents should have recognized the trouble you were having and attempted to understand and help you. Since we’re having this conversation, I’m guessing your parents were (much as mine were) simply flabbergasted they had such an intelligent child, and assumed you would figure things out on your own.

Parents can overestimate their ability to parent just as easily as they can underestimate it.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Let us recall how Tinder suckered women in and how women fell for it: women’s choices of potential matches are heavily skewed to the most popular guys. So even though it was, like everything, originally a sausage fest, women’s apex fallacies were satisfied. This makes it less likely to make a real match, but it makes women feel much better about making any matches at all, and so the churning activity increases.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Tell me again exactly how many women are willing to pony up for their own beta orbiter and/or white knight?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Jeremy My parents were too busy trying to get compliant behavior out of me through physical and psychological abuse to care about it. Also, the attitude amongst my household was one of expecting high intelligence as a part of life. There was an assumption we’d be smart and reflect it. My father was in the 120-ish range and a doctor. My mother tested at 160 and was initially a stay at home mom then later an extremely good accountant. When dad started the beatings, mom (I feel reasonably) divorced him, but then started to beat me as I looked more… Read more »

Jeremy
6 years ago

RP Reddit banned me too, just like Elam. Fuckers.

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Sun

*feels like someone just gave him a can of nuts, opened it, and watched springed snakes shoot into his face*

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

Reading women’s comments here only makes me think one thing:

One of our first and most major mistakes was giving women the right to vote.

It doesn’t get any more Beta than that. Women should not have the right to vote. Immeasurable problems have ensued since then, similar to any guy completely giving up his frame in any relationship.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Softek

In defense of women voting, most of the men I’ve talked to shouldn’t vote either. Who do you think voted to allow the women to vote to begin with?

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Which “pony up” reminds me. Along with Glenn’s “cut off his right leg” (btw lighten up, dude!). Women’s SMV, as I’ve argued, is not strictly how hot the guys are that she could sleep with, but basically how hot the guys are that she turns down or otherwise makes herself difficult for. Now, men’s SMV basically is how little beta bux they have to pony up. Right? If a guy can pull a hot girl but only after he shows her his mansion, she probably has visions of bux dancing in her head. If he has to give her stuff,… Read more »

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

Hmm. If a guy is in the 80% of unfortunates physically, and 80% of us are, then maybe we *would* fare better with women when invisible but communicative. Maybe women would pony up just to make us invisible.

Yes, I know what you want to type. Go on. “I would pony up just to make you shut up!”

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ jf12 – Making general statements about Tinder is data? Please, in other words you are just positing your own suppositions. Great, me too.

Jeremy
6 years ago

@Softek I don’t mind allowing women to vote. However, your influence over civilization’s direction should come in direct proportion to your net investment into it. This means to me that unless you’re willing to be drafted and sacrifice your life for society, you have no say, no voice in how those lives are used. The current situation is actually fundamentally evil. A current majority of voters in the U.S. are in fact women. These are people who cannot be drafted, they cannot be forced to serve and die for the country, yet they have power to (effectively) send men to… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
6 years ago

@ jf12 – “lighten up dude” – White Knight much? Did you read what that silly little dragon-whore wrote? I tried to deal with her like a sentient human being but she can’t process reason and answer simple questions, or more accurately, doesn’t believe she has to when dealing with me. When I press and point out her inconsistencies and hypocrisy she begins attacking me, so I went nuclear on her, after going to great pains to be polite and considerate to her. This is perhaps the only place in the world I don’t have to take a shred of… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@jf12

You’re now speculating about what Patrice O’Neal referred to as a Time Ho, except being paid for it.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ Sun Heh. Reminds me of another Taoist story: ——————————— One day Effort said to Destiny, “My achievements are greater than yours.” Destiny did not agree. He challenged Effort immediately: “What have you done to make your achievements surpass mine?” Effort said, “Whether someone lives long or dies young, is rich or poor, will succeed or fail depends on me.” Destiny said at once, “Old P’eng’s intelligence did not match that of the emperors Yao and Shun, but he lived a long and healthy life. On the other hand, Yen-hui, Confucius’s best student, died when he was eighteen. Confucius’s virtue… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Glenn

What I honestly don’t get is why bother to go back and forth so much with these chicks? Within a couple female posts I can usually tell we’re in for the usual AWALT material, so I pretty much skip over their posts after that.

Not white knighting here, as all your points seem valid. I’m just wondering why you waste your time on them. I know you can perceive just as well as I can what you’re in for.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

@ Glenn She was a rude cunt to you. To say the least. I myself couldn’t even believe she had the nerve to write what she did when I read over it. I’m actually surprised you didn’t go anywhere near as nuclear as I thought you would. I thought it was just because you figured the expenditure of energy wasn’t worth it, even though she’d fully deserve it, and then some. Since she’s so happy with her husband and has to prove that to all of us, must’ve been the Carnation Instant Bitch she had for breakfast. Ever see the… Read more »

yossarian
yossarian
6 years ago

I for one can not wait for the new posting. Please Rollo.

Softek
Softek
6 years ago

And to make my own day, I’ve finally found the perfect time to share this clip here.

jf12
jf12
6 years ago

General online dating question to both guys and gals: Which would you prefer?
1) Someone saw your picture and thought you were hot enough to communicate with, then liked your communication enough to agree to meet you.
2) Someone saw your communication and thought you were hot enough to exchange pictures, then liked your images enough to agree to meet you.

I really, really dislike #1 for myself. #2 seems more likely to work as well as maybe more old-fashioned.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Softek

Actually lol’d at that one.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@ Kate

Women don’t need foreplay and they certainly don’t need lube in the beginning.

What is “foreplay” and what is “lube”? After 30-odd years of marriage, Mrs. Gamer doesn’t typically need these things. And she wants an open
marriage, saying that she can go without sex. Go figure.

Maybe it’s because I don’t put up with her 5h1t and give her verbal shivs a lot that she’s hot for me. She doesn’t want a divorce. And she pretends that she doesn’t want sex.

Morgan
Morgan
6 years ago

You’re insight into the situation is spot on, Rollo. Two things: There is a slow decline to a breaking point in the BP sexual relationship. She pulls back a little, he tries to negotiate her desire, she pulls back more, he turns to porn and masterbation, she becomes more disgusted and repulsed. Maybe he turns to prostitutes, looking for women who are willing to have sex with him, rather than forcing the one woman who promised to have sex with him until death. Now she has her social victim proof, and divorce court proof she needs to turn everyone against… Read more »

Steve H
Steve H
6 years ago

I’m way late to this discussion, but wanted to comment on the notion that ‘all people will cheat eventually if they have abundant opportunities to cheat and likely not get found out etc etc…’ – I’m in my 30s, don’t believe in marriage, but have had a gf over 2 years who’s 10 years younger and the hottest chick i’ve been with. however, as she has gotten 2 years older, i’ve gotten interest from even younger chicks who are at least as physically hot. one such instance came last week, from a little 18 y/o blonde, in another country, in… Read more »

New Dark Triad
6 years ago

I think the key here is establishing a dominant frame early on. In order to build that rock solid core we have to build something – anything. A brand, a product. Become a producer instead of a consumer where people naturally gravitate towards you and your product or mission. Then, the script has been flipped and women are vying for you, not the other way around. That is often a difficult thing to do because we’re required to unplug, and I know personally that has meant many nights alone during my 20’s. That’s just too much for most people, but… Read more »

Erik
Erik
6 years ago

This should be required reading for every male. Right on point. Sure there are some male commenters who have truly found “the one” but in today’s society that’s really an anomaly, unfortunately. One thing I would add though is that the characteristics of the female who turns scream Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). They are that much worse. Guys if you see a woman like this run, don’t walk, run. It’s not worth the grief. Go out, have fun try to meet new girls, there are many out there and you’ll be surprised how fun and rewarding it is to strike… Read more »

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Evolver
Evolver
5 years ago

Question. “Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. The sex “reward”, the ‘cookie time for good boy’, for desired behavior or performance ‘turns’ off, or sex is used as an intermittent reward for desired behavior (i.e. Choreplay). Sex becomes a utility; a positive reinforcer for her Beta increasing his provisioning capacity rather than the true visceral enjoyment she had with her past lovers.” My wife delivered 5 months ago, our first child. Sex has decreased, significantly, and she isn’t as “into it” when we have sex,… Read more »

lh
lh
5 years ago

These matters are too complex to give easy answers on limited information. I’d recommend you read and understand more until you feel confident you can assess the situation and what to do.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

I agree with LH. But great question. I wish I would have known what I know now at your age. But that being said, it does depend on what Frame you entered marriage with. And how much you already know and understand about red pill awareness and married man game. How much do you know and understand of Rollo’s >400 essays and books? Do you feel confident as a man now in regards to how your wife sees you as an alpha male (someone she desires to have sex with more than her past lovers)? Are you the prize? Do… Read more »

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[…] an effort to please my wife. I had done so much, yet I couldn’t understand why she was still turning on me. So I continued to double down, thinking that if I could just somehow make her happy I could save […]

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[…] man who is divorced or cheated on by a woman will report that she seems to turn into some sort of alien. […]

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