Acing the Test

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One of the first observations formal PUAs had when they were testing and refining their methods was that of the now ubiquitous shit tests women would present them with. It’s important to put this testing dynamic into context because, as most any guy who’s ever made an approach will tell you (not just PUAs) there comes a stage in that approach when a girl will set up a challenge for a guy. However, as any married man will tell you, that’s not where the shit tests end.

Over the holidays I was hanging out with my brother and watching my niece and nephew interact. My nephew is 16 and his sister is a very mature 12, but to see them interact, it’s one shit test after another. There’s the fluid teasing and taunting that comes from siblings that genuinely like each other (well, mostly), but as I watch these two interact I thought back to how my brother and I used to give each other shit, smack each other around and basically roughhouse like boys used to be able to do before a feminine-primary society decided they needed to be medically sedated for their ‘condition’.

I’ve explored this in Amused Mastery, but there’s a natural flow that’s learned between an older brother and a younger sister (or sometimes a capricious younger brother to an older sister) that translates to an intersexual relating with men and women later in adulthood. My brother is very conventionally masculine, a somewhat natural Alpha in his mindset, and his positive masculine frame carries over into his role as a father. This sets the environment in which his son and daughter are learning intertersexual interactions with one another. Both are very headstrong, but also respectful in a way that only a positively male dominant father can inspire.

I bring this up because I feel this learning illustrates both the problem most men later have with shit tests as well as the key to capitalizing on them.

No Passing

You’ll notice I didn’t say ‘pass’ the shit test. I think it’s a misnomer to view shit tests as a pass or fail proposition. Most men like that easy binary win-lose proposition, but the problem I have with that is that ‘passing’ a shit test implies finality. You will always be shit tested by a woman, so you never really pass that test, however you can and should turn those tests to your advantage.

Many a well meaning Red Pill woman (and a few Purple Pill ‘life coaches’) who don’t like offending the delicate sensibilities of today’s virtuous women like to call these tests ‘fitness’ tests. The renaming sprays a bit of perfume on an otherwise unflattering aspect of women’s Hypergamous psyches, but under that scent is the same truth,…

Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re made aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.

I think the early PUAs were correct in calling these test ‘shit tests’ because the nature of those tests they met in their field approaches were very much like the ‘shit’ they’d given and been given by their male peers throughout much of their lives. Part of the male experience is giving your friends ‘shit’, ribbing them, messing with them and otherwise talking ‘shit’ with them. If you’re in a fantasy football league you probably get that “smack talking” has been raised to an art form.

In this context it’s not so much a fitness test as it is a form of male-specific camaraderie – if it’s a test of anything it’s a test for the social intelligence that a guy gets that his friend is giving him ‘shit’ and can laugh about it and give as good as he got. This is part of men’s preferred overt form of communication which baffles women unfamiliar with it; if I’m playfully insulting you, if I’m messing with you, it means I consider you a friend and I expect that you’ll ‘just get it’ that you know this when I do.

Sadly this is often the first offense women take when they insert themselves into Male Spaces. They take the ‘shit talk’ personally, or at the very least have to make an effort (they believe they shouldn’t have to) to communicate in the open, often vulgar, but no less meaningful ways men do. Unless they were raised in the increasingly rare household of a strong masculine influence (fathers or brothers) it’s likely these women won’t “just get it” and bend their efforts to change that communication to something she’s more comfortable with, and something her feminine-primary expectations convince her is correct.

Getting the Test

Even if you had the benefit of having your bratty sister punch you in the arm after teasing her you may not realize this is a form of shit testing you. One of the most important aspects of dealing with a shit test is understanding the basic fundament of Just Getting It:

She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.

Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.

A woman wants to know a guy Just Gets It, but she still needs a method to determine that he does – ergo she shit tests. For women, this method must be in as covert a form as possible to protect the integrity of not exposing her own sexual strategy to herself.

When openly analyzed this seems like madness to men’s striving for a rational solution to a problem, but her method comes from a subconscious want of not having to convince her hindbrain that he does in fact get it – and gets it so well that he neither acknowledges it overtly nor asks for her assistance in figuring her shit test out.

Observing and / or explicating a process will change that process, and a woman’s Hypergamous hindbrain knows this.

From Plate Theory VI:

Essentially a shit test is used by women to determine one, or a combination of these factors:

a.) Confidence – first and foremost
b.) Options – is this guy really into me because I’m ‘special’ or am I his only option?
c.) Security – is this guy capable of providing me with long term security?

I would also add that these requisites imply a testing for masculine dominance as well as his sexual market value. Women want a man that other women want to fuck, and other men want to be. The conflict inherent in women’s shit testing is that she must simultaneously determine a man has other sexual options than her while also attempting to limit those option and making herself his primary focus.

There’s always been some debate as to whether women are unaware of their subconscious shit testing or if those tests come from a fully aware and deliberate intent. I understand the rational want of men to hold women’s feet to the fire and accept a personal responsibility for their action – shit tests naturally seem like a huge waste of time, not to mention duplicitous and false to men who value straight-talk solutions – but I’m going to argue that these tests are both intentional and subconscious depending on the context in which she delivers a shit test.

However, whether intended or not, it’s more important for guys to get that a woman’s testing is rooted in her inherent Hypergamous uncertainty. And that uncertainty extends to both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of her Hypergamy. Women’s doubt of a man’s Hypergamous suitability is a constant, though subconscious effect for her.

Active Testing

When a woman actively, consciously, shit tests you, understand that it is always intentional. This type of shit test is the most common one PUAs encounter in the clubs or whatever their preferred venue may be. With the exception of maybe Day Game, women in these arenas are expecting men to sarge them, and therefore the propensity to deliver a prepared shit test is a conscious decision on her part. For the most part these tests amount to a fun game for her that serve the purpose of determining a guy’s SMV and his Hypergamy optimization potential.

An active test is entertainment to her in the same way it is for a bratty sister and her older brother. There’s usually a lot of witty (hopefully on your part) push-pull to this shit test exchange, but the latent purpose is her subconscious probing you for the possibility that you might ‘get it’ – that you might be able to play the game rather than having to explain it to her or having it explained to you.

As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but a lot of men (particularly overly conditioned Betas) come to believe that any impropriety on his part might be taken as an offensive so they never boldly push back on these test as they should. They fall back on the “Yes M’Lady” white knight script they believe will set them apart from “other guys”, but the guys who ‘get it’ aren’t confused by shit tests. A big brother hits his bratty sister back when they’re play fighting; not so much as to harm her, but just enough to show her who’s stronger, who’s in control of his situation and isn’t afraid to push her back.

If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so. A lot of men mistake a woman’s “Bitch Shield” as a cue of disinterest or disgust, when in fact these are often calculated shit tests. There are many ways to push past a Bitch Shield for a guy with the brass (and interest) to do so, but it’s a woman’s indifference, not her poised contempt, that cues disinterest.

Active tests are what single men are most likely to encounter in women, and it’s important for these men to understand that this type of test isn’t something you pass, but rather something you capitalize on. For a guy with even a basic grasp of Game these test should be considered nothing but softballs for him to hit out of the park.

Things to remember are Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify and a basic Cocky & Funny ambience while employing them. I should also add that women deliberately putting themselves into social environments (like a club) who are delivering active shit test are likely at the ovulation point of their Estrus phase – adjust your Game (and birth control methods) accordingly.

If you recognize that you’re being actively shit tested always remember, play with her, and play with her. Shit tests of this nature are opportunities to build attraction as well as arousal, and women want you to get that they are opportunities.

Passive Testing

While active testing is done in awareness with intent by a woman (with only a passing element of her subconsciously doing so), a passive shit test is a reflexive, subconscious test rooted in a woman’s Hypergamous insecurities. In an active test, the latent purpose is one of playfully determining Hypergamous optimization of a new prospective mate. A passive test is rooted in the Hypergamous doubt that a woman’s choice to settle with that man was in fact the best optimization her SMV could afford her.

Passive testing always asks the question that her nagging, hindbrain Hypergamy can’t give a voice to, “Did I make the right choice? Is this guy really the Alpha I thought he was or could be?’

Passive testing is constantly exacerbated or defined by her previous sexual experiences (or lack thereof) or the fantasies of what could be if her circumstances were to change. For women, this is the mental space where the Alpha Widow dynamic is harbored. This is a where the subconscious testing of the man whom she consolidated monogamy with meets her unconscious comparing of him with her past, idealized experiences – or the experiences she believes could be possible if she could determine his suitability for her.

For the most part these tests are ones of measuring his performance and provisioning capacity against his Alpha tingles generating capacity. Passive tests are insidious in that they need a satisfaction of so many Hypergamous elements: Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks, the outperforming of past or fantasized sexual competitors, pushback masculine dominance, status, and many other prerequisites of long term Hypergamous optimization.

As you’ll probably guess the passive test is usually reserved for marriages and LTRs (live in arrangements being common). Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test, however you might get one from your mother or a close female relative who needs some reassurance from you (or wants to put you in your place as a Beta). Passive tests seem to be the most hurtful, but it’s important to predict when they’ll come, what’s triggered them and the root insecurity behind them that women either aren’t consciously aware of or can’t openly reveal because, once again, it ruins the game and her determining if you ‘just get it’ without being told.

As with active tests demonstration, not explication, is the key to resolving and capitalizing on them. These are the types of tests that aggravate most men because they generally feel they’re locked into solving them. Thus, they make grandly overt affairs of bringing a woman’s ‘bull shit’ to light in an effort to quell her insecurities, but also to feel like they’re reasonably holding her personally accountable for her “stupid shit testing”.

And as with most similar efforts, appealing to a woman’s reason never ‘solves’ her problem. Hypergamy doesn’t reason, Hypergamy only feels. Demonstrating you get what she’s doing will help you capitalize on her insecurities far more than explicating that you know what she’s doing by shit testing you.

You’ll probably have guessed that passive tests are most commonly generated while a woman is in the luteal phase of her menstrual cycle, but it when that insecurity relates to her partner’s Alpha suitability there is some crossover into her proliferative phase. It’s important for married men to determine the nature of his wife’s insecurity with regard to her tests and when they’re most commonly delivered.

If she’s testing you at or around her ovulatory window, if she’s regularly insisting on a Girls Night Out around this time (yes, it’s a shit test), if she’s not sexually interested in you during her estrus, it’s likely she’s uncertain about your Alpha Fucks suitability to her. If her tests come during her luteal phase, if she’s nagging or provoking you about money, emotional availability or even how she wants to live closer to her parents, it’s likely her insecurity is based on her perception of your status, provisioning capacity or your Beta Bucks potential to make more of it.

While these types of shit tests based on Hypergamous insecurity may seem like a lost cause, understand that many of the same techniques used to capitalize on active tests still apply. Not all passive tests are delivered in the negative, and applications like Command Presence and Agree & Amplify demonstrate to a woman that you get it, that you see her tests for what they are, and you’re prepared for them without revealing the game you both know you’re playing.

Even well timed Amused Mastery (after you’ve established mastery of her) is enough to defuse a shit test with potentially negative implications. Once the precedence of your mastery is set it’s an easy fallback she’ll expect from you.

Granted, there are more direct ways of demonstrating your optimization to her – staying in better shape than she’s in is an obvious one, casually emphasizing passive dread (a.k.a. married social proof) is another – but the important part is recognizing what aspect of her Hypergamy is generating that insecurity.

In closing here I feel it’s incumbent upon me to address the most obvious response most guys will have to all of this: “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit” to which I’ll say, “yeah, you’re right, it makes more sense just to disconnect entirely”.

It would be great if women could be relied upon to be rational, reasonable agents as most would like men to believe they are. I mean, they should be, right? You should just simply be able to say to a girl or your wife “Hey I know all the games your playing and why you’re playing them, so lets just drop all of the pretentiousness and get down to fucking and living, OK?” But all this amounts to is negotiating for her genuine desire. Real desire on a woman’s part never comes from rational, reasonable explanations of why she should desire you, it comes from your demonstrations and your example.

Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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donalgraeme
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That True/False picture at the top is pure gold. I’m going to have to use that.

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[…] Acing the Test […]

Stingray
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(or wants to put you in your place as a Beta).

I think it’s important to point out that wives will do this too. If she is the leader of the house, she will test you to keep her position and to keep you in yours. It’s almost like a dare, though. I dare you to oppose me, to put me in my place.

Nathan
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Rollo coaches like Mick coached Rocky

jf12
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re: “I’m going to argue that these tests are both intentional and subconscious”

It’s like the women are suffering from locked-in syndrome in their own brainz. “I can’t believe I’m saying this to this guy, but I can’t stop!”

The Lone Planet
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Words to live by:

“Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit”.

Nathan
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Realize that you do not like Jung, however this is a good one:
http://www.returnofkings.com/51627/carl-jung-predicted-catastrophe-of-modern-gender-relations

jf12
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re: “As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but” … “If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so.” I haven’t experienced shit testing from the women who have expectations of flings with me. That environment tends to be furtive, with my finger clearly on the abort/eject button at all times. The women who shit test me do so from a position of comfort or power, apparently as some sort of dare,… Read more »

Aaron
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Excellent post & relationship advice. More of these, please! “Shit tests” are an inherit part of “Game” and we as men must embrace them. There are also different levels of “shit tests”–some are so easy and pathetic to pass that they don’t even feel like shit tests, yet women throw them out there as if they don’t have anything better. I think many women become giddy when they stumble upon a difficult a shit test. “How much of a man is he” her subconscious asks. Yet passing such tests leads to the greatest rewards: tingles and dedication. Never back down,… Read more »

jf12
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re: “Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test”

I beg to differ. The shit tests that strange women do give me are the exact same dominance, compliance, and fitness tests that familiar women give me.
http://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/

I don’t think I’m all that different from plenty of other guys, since I see women doing it to them too.

jf12
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“Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.”

Without realizing? Really? Maybe alphas and dominant men are that different, I don’t know. Ask any beta if he wouldn’t *realize* that his woman was being cantankerous …

Basically speaking, if I’m not being tested then it’s because she is feeling lovey dovey and we will be having sex momentarily if not sooner.

Victor King
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This post solidifies it for me. No woman is worth the effort. I’d rather spend my time doing things I love than engaging in a never-ending battle of proving my worth to a woman.

You summed up my reaction perfectly:

“Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit”

Sun Wukong
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@Nathan

I’m gonna bet Rollo feels it’s more that he predicted it by being a source of it than by seeing it coming. That’s called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

@Rollo
Re: monthly phases. They make all kinds of aps intended for women to track her period, but I can’t find a single on for a man to track a woman’s period. Much less one that would allow him to track multiple periods for dealing with relatives, co-workers, and/or plates. I think I see an opportunity…

EGOtyst
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I would love to see some good examples of the passive test and the methods to pass them.

WaterUnderTheFridge
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Shit tests are for real, but I think it’s very common in the sphere to jump to the conclusion that a given incidence of shitty behavior from a woman is a shit test, when in fact it’s just selfishness or malice.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo IMO, all of this shit test and fitness test stuff just makes the concept way too complicated. In every case, this “shit” behavior is just a power play to establish control and dominance (i.e. determine the “pecking order”). Friends, siblings, and spouses are all doing this, all the time, either intentionally or automatically, to jockey for position in a group. However, because women are sexually attracted to men who are more dominant and higher in group status than themselves (hypergamy, good genes), men who do not submit to a woman’s challenge for dominance are more sexually desirable to… Read more »

jf12
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@Sun Wukong, re: ” I think I see an opportunity…”

Call it a menstrual test.

jf12
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@DrJ, re: power.

I always noticed myself getting shit tested a lot more by female employees than by female bosses, but according to dominant men the reverse is true.

jf12
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I took the dark triad test from the IllimitableMan site. I strongly agreed or strongly disagreed with almost everything, and got flipped into a followup. Apparently I’m 90+ percentile in narcissism (and all the womynz be like “Yah, we know”) but only 50th percentile Machiavellian and apparently a bizarrely low 1 percentile psychopathy.

I conclude psychopathy is the single part of the dark triad that works with women.

Sun Wukong
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@Dr. J Well yeah. In any interpersonal relationship, regardless of sex, the one with the power is the one that needs the other the most. Thus the default way to pass any shit test by any one for any reason is to not take it seriously thus showing the tester isn’t all that important to you. You don’t need their approval and therefore don’t need them. Men just find shit tests from women intimidating because they do need to get laid. She has something other people in your life can’t provide, creating a situation where you need her more than… Read more »

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@DrJ, re: “Friends, siblings, and spouses are all doing this, all the time”

No they’re not. A guy will test another guy maybe once or twice, and that’s it.

Wanderer
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I’m thankful for the post since I’ve always been a little confused as to what Shit-Testing actually is. If I understand it correctly (and correct me if I am wrong) a shit-test is an interchange between a man and woman where a woman is judging a man’s strength/confidence. If this is the case, then shit-testing is a form (and the greatest opportunity) of flirting for me. Not a few women have overtly told me how much it turns them on when I yell at them in an argument. Just my experience, but maybe the pejorative nature of the term is… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@jf12

A guy will test another guy maybe once or twice, and that’s it.

Gonna have to call bullshit there. The groups where I’ve been AMOG have been constant tests from other dudes used to being AMOG in their respective groups. Less frequent tests only happen with guys who are extremely beta or suffer from psychological disorders like social anxiety.

jf12
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@Sun Wukong, re: options I’m trying to think about this, but it’s elusive, which is a good sign. The way to know when some thought like this is worth the effort for tracking is when it makes itself difficult to track. It seems to me a man with literal options may as well just walk away to the next option as soon as any shit test even begins. I can’t think of any reason for him not to walk. So then shit tests *are* “a huge waste of time, not merely “naturally seem like”, to any man with actual options.… Read more »

jf12
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re: “Gonna have to call bullshit there.”

That’s one …

Sun Wukong
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@Wanderer

If this is the case, then shit-testing is a form (and the greatest opportunity) of flirting for me.

Correct attitude. Not shit-testing would suggest indifference on her part. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. If she’s shit-testing instead of ignoring you, you’ve got your foot in the door. As I often said about social interaction even in my beta days “If they never make fun of you, they’re not thinking about you” I always just saw it as an opportunity to show off my wit. Was good training for when I finally learned what a shit test was.

agent p
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@Sun Wukong Re: tracking her cycle, my wife has an app on her phone for it, I just check that. In addition, I literally have appointments covering that set up in my Outlook calendar for her cycle. It’s handy when setting appointments, for either of us, socials, business etc. If her cycle strays by a day or two I simply update my appointment in my calendar. Perhaps it’s because I am a sailor, I like to know what the tides are doing, you consume a lot less fuel that way. Just today I was advising a friend in another country… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@jf12
That’s one …

One? Hell I could swear I’ve fired a few more than that your way.

jf12
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re: “spouses are all doing this”

Moreover, it is the *women* spouses who do this. It’s not at all common for men to constantly test their wives like women do husbands.

jf12
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@Sun, re: testing

I didn’t realize …

jf12
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re: “If she’s shit-testing instead of ignoring you, you’ve got your foot in the door.”

I must have had a million feet.

jf12
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Usually having to be the center of attention, I have at times considered ignoring me to be a shit test.

jf12
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In my experience women do incessantly shit test each other when they’re at the same pecking order. And when I’m being shit tested I feel like I’m being treated like a girl.

Sun Wukong
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@jf12 I didn’t realize … If there’s one thing I always give you old fellas credit for, it’s the natural tendency to deal easily with younger guys’ shit. Consider me amused. It seems to me a man with literal options may as well just walk away to the next option as soon as any shit test even begins. Even if he doesn’t have options, that’s still a very valid strategy. If she had any interest at all, she’ll begin trying to qualify herself, possibly even going so far as to insert herself in to the next conversation you strike up… Read more »

agent p
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I remember so fondly the first shit test I was hit with by my wife immediately after I had found the red pill. We were in the laundry room and she unloaded on me about fuck knows what, some inane bullshit. A week earlier, I would have gone off on some defensive screed and then spent the next week ruminating about the whole argument. Instead with my new found knowledge I just stood leaning against a table with my arms crossed and a shit eating grin on my face. I didn’t say a word, I just nodded occasionally. It must… Read more »

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My wife regularly calls me a jerk, to which I reply “never”. She says I’m not funny or cute in response to some barb or flippant reply back, I simply say “I’m both”. She loves when I growl at her. When she pulls this in front of her family, I double down.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ jf12

Given your dialogue with Sun Wukong, perhaps you are simply not seeing many of these “shit tests” or power plays for dominance with others, or are not categorizing them as such. Nevertheless, they go back and forth all the time (including on these discussions). Any time someone tries to influence the behavior of someone else, or persuade their thinking, they are jockeying for leadership, status, and position with them.

jf12
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re: psychopathy tests

How do women not score 100%? How does their opportunism, solipsism, and Teh Feelz not make them all natural born psychopaths?

Sun Wukong
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@Dr. J
Of course the one problem online is the lack of body language and voice inflection. It can make it very difficult to establish if something’s just a shit test or a genuine insult if you’re not already familiar with somebody’s manner of communicating. Still, amused mastery and humor are in general the best responses to these things. They blunt/defuse actual insults or pass shit tests.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Sun Wukong

Having “options” does not necessarily have to mean access to other women. Heck, porn could count to fill men’s need for sexual release. If a guy developed a mindset that he would rather jerk off to a 10 online than beg for sex from a 5 in real life, then he would have a stronger frame. Thus, he does not have to “fake” having other options…he has them.

Sun Wukong
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@Dr. J

Fair point, but I don’t think that “I could go jerk off instead” is going to give a guy the confidence that “I could shag that surprisingly friendly 6 over there instead of this bitchy 5” does. It gives the same aloofness for sure, but I think there’s gotta be a degree of faking it to make up the deficit in confidence.

jf12
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@DrJ, re: “Any time someone tries to influence the behavior of someone else, or persuade their thinking, they are jockeying for leadership, status, and position with them.”

Between women especially, the shit tests are not about influencing behavior or persuading thinking or anything of that sort. They are an irrational expression of irrational malcontent to which there is no rational response possible. Yes, they are often posed as an invitation to appeasement, but appeasement is thereby the worst possible response.

Nathan
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Lol Rollo, Funny!

Sun Wukong
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@jf12

Women have a pecking order that’s extremely well established due to the covert communication going on during the interaction. On the surface they don’t seem to be about gaining influence, but that’s the covert purpose. Try to pay attention to the subtext in their conversations. Completely and totally ignore the message and pay all your attention to the medium.

Women may not be psychopathic, but they’re generally far more Machiavellian than men. Covert communication is a huge part of that.

Nathan
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We could use a link to a red pill persobal finance/money/economy blog.

Anyone know of an excellent “red pill” one?

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Sun Wukong Good point… Perhaps we need to make a distinction between the guy needing the girl…and the girl needing the guy. There are actually two variables there. 1) If he does not have other options and she does, then she is in control. Thus, he is both needy and not confident. 2) If he has other options (at least porn) and she does too (other guys), then they are somewhat at a stalemate. Given his options, he is “aloof” to her. However, because he does not at least believe he has superior value to make her need him… Read more »

jf12
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re: confidence. Before the AF sidetrack, we were discussing the effectiveness of confidence, to which I contributed: “What I am meaning here by irrational confidence is specifically a man’s behavior directed toward a woman reflecting his level of absolute certainty that he could indeed bang her if he felt like it regardless of any positive feedback he may or may not have received yet.”

I think shit tests are intended to erode that confidence, but obviously don’t do a very good job.

Sun Wukong
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@Dr. J

I hadn’t really broken it down and looked at it that way before. I think you’re right, but I’ll consider it and see if I can poke holes in it.

jf12
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@Sun Wukong, re: “Completely and totally ignore the message and pay all your attention to the medium.”

Oh, yeah. My wife and her two sisters spend hours per day, literally, plotting and scheming against each other on the phone and nowadays online. On most days it’s two against one but it usually doesn’t matter which two, and it’s often a free-for-all.

jf12
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re: go f_ yourself.

This advice is invariably derogatory to a man since it implies he HAS no other options.

Sun Wukong
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@jf12 I think shit tests are intended to erode that confidence, but obviously don’t do a very good job. I don’t think eroding it is the intention so much as a means to an end. Testing if a guy has enough confidence to handle her shit (and therefore enough confidence to be a good partner for some period of time) is the intention. Any erosion of said confidence is only incidental to the actual purpose of establishing fitness. I’d say how much it erodes the candidate’s confidence depends on the gap in SMV between the tester and candidate and the… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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@ jf12 The “irrational expression” of “irrational malcontent” is an (often unconscious) attempt at influencing appeasement behavior. Thus, acquiescing and appeasing is indeed the worst possible response, because it is showing submission to their control and influence attempt. It is “dancing to their tune”. Beyond that, just because something is not rational does not mean that it is not influential or persuasive. If a woman can convince you to stand on your head in some manner, even if she has no logical reason or goal for it, she has still established her influence,dominance, and control. Think of it like a… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Nathan

Anyone know of an excellent “red pill” one?

I wouldn’t call him 100% “Red Pill” per se, but Mr. Money Mustache is excellent and entertaining to read. I’d highly recommend him.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

jf12
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I think maybe instead of active vs passive the larger distinction is public vs private. I can grok that active (e.g. bar scene) shit testing, as discussed, is primarily in a public social environment and that therefore much of it is for the audience’s benefit. And similarly passive (e.g. marital home) shit testing is primarily in a private environment.

jf12
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re: “Testing if a guy has enough confidence to handle her shit (and therefore enough confidence to be a good partner for some period of time) is the intention.”

I don’t know. From a girl’s pov such shit testing makes a *little* bit of sense when directed towards a nice guy, to see if he’s confident enough and horny enough for her specifically, that he will stick around despite her nonsense. It doesn’t seem to make sense to try to enrage a nonnice guy into rapey behavior, though.

jf12
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re: hazing rituals.

Would that shit tests were as productive as hazing rituals! Yes, the male version may well be analogous to hazing: go through this for a while, or pass this test, then you’ll be one of us. But there is no “us” in shit-testing. The hoop-jumping that women make men endure is (intermittently) endless, and, I repeat and re-empasize, there is no passing per se of the test.

jf12
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re: “In this context it’s not so much a fitness test as it is a form of male-specific camaraderie”

Yes. It’s not about dominance, not about who gets to do what unto whom. It’s about “you’re one of us”.

jf12
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Maybe, in their crazy way, women do intend there to be “us” in shit-testing, which DOES mean I’m correct in feeling like being treated as a girl.

jf12
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Passing the test would mean joining her girl club as one of her (if not her only) herd member. Acing the test, apparently, corresponds to her joining your exclusive club.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo I think that takes us back to our old discussion on “power”… There is a personal power that comes when an individual does not allow others to influence or control his behavior (as you have blogged about). A power that develops when he is able to “act” of his own interests, rather than “react” to the shit tests and such of others. Having other options and thereby reducing the influence of others, increases that power. So, does having wisdom that comes from experience. That power over self is reflected in a sort of nonreactive mindset, what you call… Read more »

jf12
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re: “This is the least interested principle too.”

I think it also applies to a girl using shit-testing to discriminate who is interested in belonging to her club.

Joe Blow
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I try to finesse and game my way out of my wife’s shit tests because I have always been pretty firm but very gentle with her. Skillful and relatively mild teasing and play and flirting is actually fun, and I will put up with infinite ball busting (and delivered as much in return) from friends. But I have always dealt with social and work shit tests with a nuclear option. When somebody is shit testing me, apparently, the displeasure comes off me in waves, one eyebrow goes up, and I look scary, and then walk out. I’ve been known to… Read more »

jf12
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This one thing I know, a woman’s shit test is never an attempt by her to be treated as one of the guys.

Nathan
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Nathan
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Thanks sun walking

SlothLemur
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i don’t think MGTOW is the proper response to shit-testing. To a certain degree, all ppl we associate with shit test us. The Tough Love father. The Boys of the lockeroom. Your own friends. And of course women.
But passing women’s shit tests are important not just for the pussy (active ST) but also for a recoginition and reevaluation of your frame, i believe.

It just is what is it. we as men face testing/and competition almost all the time, i don’t mind the shit testing. It just makes her more DTF anyway. Especially if she does it playfully, which is cute.

Badpainter
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Do men shit test women?

I ask because my new focus on frame control seems to express itself in provoking women to mild outrage and then calmly mansplaining why I am correct and her outrage is so typically “woman” but that it’s OK because she can’t help it and only a fool would expect better or different from her. I do this intentionally to preempt challenges to my authority. I am only mildly dissapointed that it works so well.

Anonymous Reader
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Ignoring passive shit testing in an LTR is not a good idea, as it tends to lead to escalation of the shit. Given enough time, she’ll shit test to destruction.

Women are apparently surprised when they find that their escalation looks like betrayal or treason to a man.

J.T
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Women shit test because as the sex-limiting gender, they have to. Women are highly selective in who they choose to affiliate with and this, of course, stems across all aspects in her life. With that said, the intensity and consistency of a shit test comes from how she perceives the man’s inherent market value. By that, I’m obviously referring to physical characteristics that make a man attractive. This is no secret to PUAs. I recall Roosh stating on a video which showed both an unattractive man and attractive man hitting on a girl, “Good looking guys can get away with… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@bp

Do men shit test women?

I’ve always thought of it more as breaking the bitch shields. It’s not a test so much as an attack intended to break through a naturally evolved defense against poor mating options.

jf12
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@Badpainter, re: “Do men shit test women?”

I would say no, but I would also say men don’t nag their women, and men don’t give their women unwarranted guff, etc. But then I remember some men do that, like my brother who DID do that to women, and women treated him well.

jf12
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re: “if she does it playfully”

then it’s not shit testing, it’s teasing or flirting or whatever.

SlothLemur
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hmm, i guess flirting is “soft shit-testing ?” like teasing or something like that…like when little boys pull a girl’s hair or throw bugs on her

jf12
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Since a man would be a fool to provoke a much larger man to fight for dominance, we can conclude that women’s shit-testing evidences their complete social stupidity in this regard, as well as their assumption of, indeed overreliance on, the fact that someone else will rescue them if needed.

jf12
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Unless, and here we go again, she is subconsciously probing whether the guy is dominant enough to force himself regardless of would-be rescuers.

SlothLemur
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patrice o’neil once talked on something extactly like that; jf12

jf12
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re: competition with women

We’d win, we know, but our programming is intended to not let us compete with women.

SlothLemur
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found the link: “respect the bicep” Black Phillip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsq1bmVaR3Y

kobayashii1681
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So true…as the teacher says, “Demonstrate….do not explicate.”

M Simon
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M Simon
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I shit test her. If she isn’t properly surrendered she doesn’t get shit. Or maybe all she gets is shit. Depending on your definition of shit.

M Simon
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kobayashii1681
January 13th, 2015 at 8:03 pm

Demonstrate. Then explicate. NLP.

M Simon
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…girls will excuse your financial troubles if you give them tingles. This may not be applicable to married men…

Yes it does. If you are visibly working to change the situation. It helps if you are doing something big or could be big. Infinite energy, saving mankind – you know – something with high social value.

Jeremy
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@jf12 No they’re not. A guy will test another guy maybe once or twice, and that’s it. Also calling bullshit. Every group of guys I’ve ever socialized with, giving each other shit is steady if not constant. If there isn’t shit, there’s tension, and not the good kind of tension either. The dynamic changes entirely if there are peripheral women or blue-pill men around, or nearby who might walk in. Frankly it goes away. But generally, yeah, the guys I work with, the guys I play with, shit is normal, and the responses do establish pecking order. Now in-family, there’s… Read more »

The Mace Stomp
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Will it matter if a girl comes to know that U R behaving this alpha way(just gets it) because you read some blog
just asking??

Sun Wukong
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@Mace

What she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. Don’t tell her and she won’t know. Don’t tell your friends and they won’t tell her. Nobody needs to know where you got your alpha behavior, just that you have it. It’s none of their goddamn business where you got it.

eon
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eon
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“Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.” “Without realizing? Really? Maybe alphas and dominant men are that different, I don’t know. Ask any beta if he wouldn’t *realize* that his woman was being cantankerous …” It is important to explain to your woman what you expect from her, clearly and completely, at the very beginning of a relationship, and then remain resolute. You can then even be gentle (when appropriate), while being firm, and still receive all of the beneficial effects… Read more »

David W
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@ Tomassi “Even well timed Amused Mastery (after you’ve established mastery of her) is enough to defuse a shit test with potentially negative implications. Once the precedence of your mastery is set it’s an easy fallback she’ll expect from you” Yes. Amused master does NOT work unless you have established mastery of her. I am new to TRP, about 6 months or so, and as such it is still a work in progress for me, anyhow, amused mastery has consistently backfired on me with a response from her like “you think you know everything,” in a ridiculous caricature of a… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@David W
amused mastery has consistently backfired on me with a response from her like “you think you know everything,”

“As a matter of fact, I do know everything. I just gift you with my knowledge in tiny chunks.”

D-Man
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“his level of absolute certainty that he could indeed bang her if he felt like it” I’d like to zoom in on this. I think you’re talking about “he knows he can get her to give it up”, but there are cases when what she’s testing is more literally “could he perform the act”. Is he man enough, essentially…will he chicken out. Does he know himself. Is he mentally and physically healthy. Is he ready to go? Does he desire me, but not too much? Say a guy’s in a dry spell, still clinging to his frayed blue pill blankey,… Read more »

jf12
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@DavidW, re: “amused mastery has consistently backfired on me with a response from her” The most amazing thing about Game is how extremely well it works on new women, fresh women. You should try it. Seriously. No, I’m not advising adultery, but I am telling you that if you chose to you could easily pick up new women. So, why doesn’t it work (some will say it doesn’t work “as well” but that is putting lipstick on a pig, at best) on old women, stale women, on women you did not Game at first? Good question. Relatedly, about the only… Read more »

jf12
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@Jeremy, re: “”Every group of guys I’ve ever socialized with, giving each other shit is steady if not constant. If there isn’t shit, there’s tension, and not the good kind of tension either.”

I don’t see this constant level-testing behavior from men at all. Not to myself, not to others. It’s once, then done. Women, on the other hand, compete in *everything* all the time. A single awry hair strand ruins her herd standing.

sfcton
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I have to disagree that shit test aren’t pass/ fail. Shit tests are pass/ fail. Pass them and your value/ frame improves or stays neutral. Fail them and the pussy dries up. Pass enough of them and the number of shit tests decline but I agree there is no finality to them.

https://tonsplace.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/perpetual-shit-tests/

men giving each other shit elevates both men if done correctly. Challenge given, challenge meet…. challenger had the balls to step up,challenged turns the tables or one ups the challenger;everyone is elevated .

https://tonsplace.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/making-men/

jf12
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re: “Men do it too!”

jf12
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@D-Man, re: “Whether she’s worth the hassle is another story…”

Indeed it is. I agree instant sexualization and escalation works as well, if not better, with high SMV women.

re: “overwhelmed by her willingness.”

This was never a problem for me. True there wasn’t a whole lot of overwhelmingness to the willingness, but I don’t think I could have been overwhelmed by any level.

Tom
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> men will stare at a woman’s big boobs

Any guy who’s been in a profession or sport that involves wearing lycra can tell you that women “observe” men’s packages when the opportunity presents itself. Rather more blatantly than men checking Racks, I must say. Probably because there’s no social shaming pressure on women to “keep your eyes up here” LOL.

Women are checking men for quality subconsciously all the time, in more ways than just passive shit tests.

Badpainter
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Re: stale women Why bother? Unless by “stale” you mean there is an established relationship in which case the problem would seem to be one protecting an investment, and an unwillingness to write off sunk costs. Once invested outcome independence is reduced or severely compromised. Dread seems to work because it indicates the investments, and sunk costs, are no longer sufficient to guarantee future investment. Game works from the outset because the prize, commitment has not been awarded. Game after commitment is a sort renegotiation of terms that to be successful must included a credible threat of withdrawing commitment hence… Read more »

jf12
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@Jeremy re: “The dynamic changes entirely if there are peripheral women or blue-pill men around, or nearby who might walk in. Frankly it goes away.”

Uh, ok, so in other words everywhere in my whole world it goes away. Ok.

Besides my main life groups comprised of married men, I have spent weeks at a time, e.g. on isolated oil rigs, in the company of just men. If a guy did not conform to once then done, if he tried to keep testing, then he was isolated.

The Mace Stomp
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@Sun Wukong
Its A Secret I Should Tell Friends But They Will Assume Me As Bitter And Jealous
In Short Its Useless!

@Rollo
Without Buttering U up I Want To Say Your Blog Is The Best
You Help Me A Lot Sir Thanks

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