Acing the Test

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One of the first observations formal PUAs had when they were testing and refining their methods was that of the now ubiquitous shit tests women would present them with. It’s important to put this testing dynamic into context because, as most any guy who’s ever made an approach will tell you (not just PUAs) there comes a stage in that approach when a girl will set up a challenge for a guy. However, as any married man will tell you, that’s not where the shit tests end.

Over the holidays I was hanging out with my brother and watching my niece and nephew interact. My nephew is 16 and his sister is a very mature 12, but to see them interact, it’s one shit test after another. There’s the fluid teasing and taunting that comes from siblings that genuinely like each other (well, mostly), but as I watch these two interact I thought back to how my brother and I used to give each other shit, smack each other around and basically roughhouse like boys used to be able to do before a feminine-primary society decided they needed to be medically sedated for their ‘condition’.

I’ve explored this in Amused Mastery, but there’s a natural flow that’s learned between an older brother and a younger sister (or sometimes a capricious younger brother to an older sister) that translates to an intersexual relating with men and women later in adulthood. My brother is very conventionally masculine, a somewhat natural Alpha in his mindset, and his positive masculine frame carries over into his role as a father. This sets the environment in which his son and daughter are learning intertersexual interactions with one another. Both are very headstrong, but also respectful in a way that only a positively male dominant father can inspire.

I bring this up because I feel this learning illustrates both the problem most men later have with shit tests as well as the key to capitalizing on them.

No Passing

You’ll notice I didn’t say ‘pass’ the shit test. I think it’s a misnomer to view shit tests as a pass or fail proposition. Most men like that easy binary win-lose proposition, but the problem I have with that is that ‘passing’ a shit test implies finality. You will always be shit tested by a woman, so you never really pass that test, however you can and should turn those tests to your advantage.

Many a well meaning Red Pill woman (and a few Purple Pill ‘life coaches’) who don’t like offending the delicate sensibilities of today’s virtuous women like to call these tests ‘fitness’ tests. The renaming sprays a bit of perfume on an otherwise unflattering aspect of women’s Hypergamous psyches, but under that scent is the same truth,…

Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re made aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.

I think the early PUAs were correct in calling these test ‘shit tests’ because the nature of those tests they met in their field approaches were very much like the ‘shit’ they’d given and been given by their male peers throughout much of their lives. Part of the male experience is giving your friends ‘shit’, ribbing them, messing with them and otherwise talking ‘shit’ with them. If you’re in a fantasy football league you probably get that “smack talking” has been raised to an art form.

In this context it’s not so much a fitness test as it is a form of male-specific camaraderie – if it’s a test of anything it’s a test for the social intelligence that a guy gets that his friend is giving him ‘shit’ and can laugh about it and give as good as he got. This is part of men’s preferred overt form of communication which baffles women unfamiliar with it; if I’m playfully insulting you, if I’m messing with you, it means I consider you a friend and I expect that you’ll ‘just get it’ that you know this when I do.

Sadly this is often the first offense women take when they insert themselves into Male Spaces. They take the ‘shit talk’ personally, or at the very least have to make an effort (they believe they shouldn’t have to) to communicate in the open, often vulgar, but no less meaningful ways men do. Unless they were raised in the increasingly rare household of a strong masculine influence (fathers or brothers) it’s likely these women won’t “just get it” and bend their efforts to change that communication to something she’s more comfortable with, and something her feminine-primary expectations convince her is correct.

Getting the Test

Even if you had the benefit of having your bratty sister punch you in the arm after teasing her you may not realize this is a form of shit testing you. One of the most important aspects of dealing with a shit test is understanding the basic fundament of Just Getting It:

She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.

Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.

A woman wants to know a guy Just Gets It, but she still needs a method to determine that he does – ergo she shit tests. For women, this method must be in as covert a form as possible to protect the integrity of not exposing her own sexual strategy to herself.

When openly analyzed this seems like madness to men’s striving for a rational solution to a problem, but her method comes from a subconscious want of not having to convince her hindbrain that he does in fact get it – and gets it so well that he neither acknowledges it overtly nor asks for her assistance in figuring her shit test out.

Observing and / or explicating a process will change that process, and a woman’s Hypergamous hindbrain knows this.

From Plate Theory VI:

Essentially a shit test is used by women to determine one, or a combination of these factors:

a.) Confidence – first and foremost
b.) Options – is this guy really into me because I’m ‘special’ or am I his only option?
c.) Security – is this guy capable of providing me with long term security?

I would also add that these requisites imply a testing for masculine dominance as well as his sexual market value. Women want a man that other women want to fuck, and other men want to be. The conflict inherent in women’s shit testing is that she must simultaneously determine a man has other sexual options than her while also attempting to limit those option and making herself his primary focus.

There’s always been some debate as to whether women are unaware of their subconscious shit testing or if those tests come from a fully aware and deliberate intent. I understand the rational want of men to hold women’s feet to the fire and accept a personal responsibility for their action – shit tests naturally seem like a huge waste of time, not to mention duplicitous and false to men who value straight-talk solutions – but I’m going to argue that these tests are both intentional and subconscious depending on the context in which she delivers a shit test.

However, whether intended or not, it’s more important for guys to get that a woman’s testing is rooted in her inherent Hypergamous uncertainty. And that uncertainty extends to both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of her Hypergamy. Women’s doubt of a man’s Hypergamous suitability is a constant, though subconscious effect for her.

Active Testing

When a woman actively, consciously, shit tests you, understand that it is always intentional. This type of shit test is the most common one PUAs encounter in the clubs or whatever their preferred venue may be. With the exception of maybe Day Game, women in these arenas are expecting men to sarge them, and therefore the propensity to deliver a prepared shit test is a conscious decision on her part. For the most part these tests amount to a fun game for her that serve the purpose of determining a guy’s SMV and his Hypergamy optimization potential.

An active test is entertainment to her in the same way it is for a bratty sister and her older brother. There’s usually a lot of witty (hopefully on your part) push-pull to this shit test exchange, but the latent purpose is her subconscious probing you for the possibility that you might ‘get it’ – that you might be able to play the game rather than having to explain it to her or having it explained to you.

As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but a lot of men (particularly overly conditioned Betas) come to believe that any impropriety on his part might be taken as an offensive so they never boldly push back on these test as they should. They fall back on the “Yes M’Lady” white knight script they believe will set them apart from “other guys”, but the guys who ‘get it’ aren’t confused by shit tests. A big brother hits his bratty sister back when they’re play fighting; not so much as to harm her, but just enough to show her who’s stronger, who’s in control of his situation and isn’t afraid to push her back.

If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so. A lot of men mistake a woman’s “Bitch Shield” as a cue of disinterest or disgust, when in fact these are often calculated shit tests. There are many ways to push past a Bitch Shield for a guy with the brass (and interest) to do so, but it’s a woman’s indifference, not her poised contempt, that cues disinterest.

Active tests are what single men are most likely to encounter in women, and it’s important for these men to understand that this type of test isn’t something you pass, but rather something you capitalize on. For a guy with even a basic grasp of Game these test should be considered nothing but softballs for him to hit out of the park.

Things to remember are Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify and a basic Cocky & Funny ambience while employing them. I should also add that women deliberately putting themselves into social environments (like a club) who are delivering active shit test are likely at the ovulation point of their Estrus phase – adjust your Game (and birth control methods) accordingly.

If you recognize that you’re being actively shit tested always remember, play with her, and play with her. Shit tests of this nature are opportunities to build attraction as well as arousal, and women want you to get that they are opportunities.

Passive Testing

While active testing is done in awareness with intent by a woman (with only a passing element of her subconsciously doing so), a passive shit test is a reflexive, subconscious test rooted in a woman’s Hypergamous insecurities. In an active test, the latent purpose is one of playfully determining Hypergamous optimization of a new prospective mate. A passive test is rooted in the Hypergamous doubt that a woman’s choice to settle with that man was in fact the best optimization her SMV could afford her.

Passive testing always asks the question that her nagging, hindbrain Hypergamy can’t give a voice to, “Did I make the right choice? Is this guy really the Alpha I thought he was or could be?’

Passive testing is constantly exacerbated or defined by her previous sexual experiences (or lack thereof) or the fantasies of what could be if her circumstances were to change. For women, this is the mental space where the Alpha Widow dynamic is harbored. This is a where the subconscious testing of the man whom she consolidated monogamy with meets her unconscious comparing of him with her past, idealized experiences – or the experiences she believes could be possible if she could determine his suitability for her.

For the most part these tests are ones of measuring his performance and provisioning capacity against his Alpha tingles generating capacity. Passive tests are insidious in that they need a satisfaction of so many Hypergamous elements: Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks, the outperforming of past or fantasized sexual competitors, pushback masculine dominance, status, and many other prerequisites of long term Hypergamous optimization.

As you’ll probably guess the passive test is usually reserved for marriages and LTRs (live in arrangements being common). Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test, however you might get one from your mother or a close female relative who needs some reassurance from you (or wants to put you in your place as a Beta). Passive tests seem to be the most hurtful, but it’s important to predict when they’ll come, what’s triggered them and the root insecurity behind them that women either aren’t consciously aware of or can’t openly reveal because, once again, it ruins the game and her determining if you ‘just get it’ without being told.

As with active tests demonstration, not explication, is the key to resolving and capitalizing on them. These are the types of tests that aggravate most men because they generally feel they’re locked into solving them. Thus, they make grandly overt affairs of bringing a woman’s ‘bull shit’ to light in an effort to quell her insecurities, but also to feel like they’re reasonably holding her personally accountable for her “stupid shit testing”.

And as with most similar efforts, appealing to a woman’s reason never ‘solves’ her problem. Hypergamy doesn’t reason, Hypergamy only feels. Demonstrating you get what she’s doing will help you capitalize on her insecurities far more than explicating that you know what she’s doing by shit testing you.

You’ll probably have guessed that passive tests are most commonly generated while a woman is in the luteal phase of her menstrual cycle, but it when that insecurity relates to her partner’s Alpha suitability there is some crossover into her proliferative phase. It’s important for married men to determine the nature of his wife’s insecurity with regard to her tests and when they’re most commonly delivered.

If she’s testing you at or around her ovulatory window, if she’s regularly insisting on a Girls Night Out around this time (yes, it’s a shit test), if she’s not sexually interested in you during her estrus, it’s likely she’s uncertain about your Alpha Fucks suitability to her. If her tests come during her luteal phase, if she’s nagging or provoking you about money, emotional availability or even how she wants to live closer to her parents, it’s likely her insecurity is based on her perception of your status, provisioning capacity or your Beta Bucks potential to make more of it.

While these types of shit tests based on Hypergamous insecurity may seem like a lost cause, understand that many of the same techniques used to capitalize on active tests still apply. Not all passive tests are delivered in the negative, and applications like Command Presence and Agree & Amplify demonstrate to a woman that you get it, that you see her tests for what they are, and you’re prepared for them without revealing the game you both know you’re playing.

Even well timed Amused Mastery (after you’ve established mastery of her) is enough to defuse a shit test with potentially negative implications. Once the precedence of your mastery is set it’s an easy fallback she’ll expect from you.

Granted, there are more direct ways of demonstrating your optimization to her – staying in better shape than she’s in is an obvious one, casually emphasizing passive dread (a.k.a. married social proof) is another – but the important part is recognizing what aspect of her Hypergamy is generating that insecurity.

In closing here I feel it’s incumbent upon me to address the most obvious response most guys will have to all of this: “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit” to which I’ll say, “yeah, you’re right, it makes more sense just to disconnect entirely”.

It would be great if women could be relied upon to be rational, reasonable agents as most would like men to believe they are. I mean, they should be, right? You should just simply be able to say to a girl or your wife “Hey I know all the games your playing and why you’re playing them, so lets just drop all of the pretentiousness and get down to fucking and living, OK?” But all this amounts to is negotiating for her genuine desire. Real desire on a woman’s part never comes from rational, reasonable explanations of why she should desire you, it comes from your demonstrations and your example.

Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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M Simon
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jf12
January 14th, 2015 at 5:59 pm

You are aware that murderers are quite popular with some women.

Not Born This Morning
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@M Simon

This is where you reviel your lack of personal compass. Your “first mate” is at the helm and she is banging you up the ass across the bow. Everyone can see this except you because she has your teeth driven into the deck.

jf12
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@M Simon, re: lion taming A little while ago I curtly inquired of an unfamiliar young woman, who was sticking her head into people’s open offices, “What are you prowling around here for?” and she had to explain rather fearfully that she was looking for (I’ll make up a name) Cindy because Cindy was supposed to give her a ride. I demanded to see her badge, and physically took it from her and called it in. Just procedure, although seldom actually followed. She kind of enjoyed it, though, and I heard her bragging to someone that I said she looked… Read more »

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@Not Born This Morning ALPHA FUCKS = Bad Boy = Sexual Pet BETA BUCKS = Good Dad = Good Provider BOTH of these male characterizations are feminine primary. I’m not sure what you mean by feminine primary. They’re simply categorizations of male behavior that satisfy two differing goals that females seek to satisfy. It is impossible to say that such categorizations of male behavior could be separated from the sexually dimorphic species that we are simply based on the fact that we evolved together. What really blows your mind is when you realize that women have always had greater control… Read more »

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@Rollo, re: “A lot gets made of men being the gatekeepers of commitment, but I think this gets overplayed in the manosphere. Commitment isn’t quite the bargaining chip a lot of guys think it is unless they’re at their SMV peak.”

Amen to that. Too many women know they could marry too many unattractive men at any time. Betas treat commitment like riders on a Mardi Gras float. Similarly, being the gatekeepers of vagina isn’t quite the bargaining chip for very many women who aren’t great marriage material. The gate hinges get worn off before the women realize it.

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Not Born This Morning January 14th, 2015 at 6:12 pm My fm is not at the helm. You confuse me with most other guys that use that term. When I say fm you should think “biker’s OL”. Because I’m 70 and got RP at 18. And I AM a biker. And an aerospace engineer. And Naval Nuclear Qualified. ================ She has never driven my teeth into the deck. But I suppose it is hard to tell from your vantage point. I will admit she does try. And when she does I cut her off until she comes around. Now all… Read more »

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If you are concerned about passing her shit tests then you automatically fail them because the general purpose of any shit test is to see if you are concerned with passing them. Failure is defined by any concern for them. “Passing” is only realized…..let me repeat this passing is ONLY having no concern for any shit test. If you are trying to determine how to pass shit tests or counting the number you may or may not have passed, then you fail. It’s that simple. You fail because you blatantly display lack of self respect and communicate that you devalue… Read more »

jf12
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re: caged bird singing etc. Recommended reading “The Bondage of the Will”.

Not Born This Morning
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@M Simon

My vision is clear and see through it all.

To each his “Waltalpha World”….with his “alpha princess”

A few of us prefer honesty and reality.

sfcton
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It is ugly JF12, Our historical past was ugly as hell and power means survival. Which is why the West is dying. They have given up the will to be mean and ugly and now the world runs over us

Why isn’t that smirk appropriate at Bible study. Read the Bible 6 or more times, never read a rule against smirking

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Rollo – “We can override our biological imperatives.”

Indeed, for example my body count is zero, and I’ve never hit a woman (not since the fourth grade).

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? Not to sound too therapist-ish here, but it wasn’t your fault man. You were operating in a reality that didn’t include RP perspective. Everyone around you, every time something would go wrong, would tell you to double down on beta behaviors. Every. Single. Time. Nobody once said “Hey maybe this other perspective is correct”… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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@Rollo

I completely agree.

Sometimes in making a point my words may seem to negate one variable of reality by highly illuminating another. My intent was not to downplay the influence of nature and nuture. However, I think most of men’s problems here stem from lack of self respect and understanding their true potential and value. The realization has been beaten and scammed out of most.

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Re: male shit tests

I’d guess this is ball-busting to find weakness. I know the difference between the personal attack and the good natured ribbing. The personal attack should be ignored unless one is prepared to escalate to violence. In fact a quick invitation to “settle things like men” usually answers the attack without violence, and is good for establishing boundaries.

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@Sun Wukong I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? Not to sound too therapist-ish here, but it wasn’t your fault man. You were operating in a reality that didn’t include RP perspective. Agreed. Being someone who grew up in, and came out of a cult… You can spend time blaming yourself for not having the critical thinking skills to see the bullshit…… Read more »

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@ Sun Wukong – Thanks man. Great perspective and very nice to know that I’m not alone in struggling. But here’s my truth. Worst part of the Red Pill? Seeing how I fucked it all up. Really. I chose this path in a lot of ways. It was the path of plausible deniability, like I did just enough to not be able to be blamed but did I really do all I could do to get what I want? Nope. In fact, I gave myself excuses and ignored the voice in my head that told me many Red Pill truths… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo I believe that both perspectives are occurring simultaneously, at different levels of analysis. 1) The preference of each sex forms the basis for inter-sexual performance and competition. They both judge each other, but by a different set of standards. Higher value mates (by those standards) choose and lower value mates struggle to perform to be chosen back. Because women are generally the more reproductively valuable mate, they more easily meet men’s standards. Therefore, usually they are chosen by many men (of lower value) and have the option to have them perform to try and earn the women’s choice… Read more »

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I discussed hypergamy with my wife this afternoon

As far as intelligence in a mate is concerned this was her opinion.

Self-1 = not going to happen, no chance.

Equal Intelligence = neither attractive nor unattractive. She said this guy would need another attractive trait to make him interesting. Otherwise no.

Self+1 = Immediately attractive.

That’s her inborn biology talking. She was being honest. Any woman who marries a Self-1 thinks she settled big time. She’s headed for crippling depression and she’ll probably take it out on her Self-1 husband.

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The problem with modern shit tests is that in the past when women couldn’t self provision they knew they had to come back to the ‘fold’. With the changing economic ecology (per David de la Croix) and the woman’s capacity for self provisioning, social support and serial polygyny, shit tests become something altogether different. Cock hopping wasn’t an option in the past but now it is, all the strategies in the world can’t change the different social circumstances. Far more important than game and redpill knowledge in today’s environment for the average man is asset protection and income security, that’s… Read more »

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@ zdro1ds

That self+1 effect for intelligence in women’s preferences does not surprise me. My point is that we can (and do) find that same self+1 effect in men for physical attractiveness. Men who are better looking than their wives are often miserable. Both sexes are looking for a +1 effect in the other, just along different dimensions.

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@Johnycomelately I’ve seen men set up for devastating divorces by their spouses only to have the tables turn when they realized assets were in the husband’s parent’s name. You will never witnessed a bigger 360 and supplicating grovelling until you’ve seen a woman who has realized her gambit has failed and the cash and prizes has vanished. It’s a shame the sphere doesn’t have web pages dedicated to asset protection, that’s the only fallback modern men have. You don’t realize what a game changer it is until you have witnessed it in action. Tell me a tale sir, I would… Read more »

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@ Sun Wukong good example of agree and amplify, I’ll give it shot. @jf12 “Relatedly, about the only thing, and arguably the one and only thing, that can possibly work on stale women is Dread.” Ya, I am working towards that direction. I am doing a few things: working out with the goal of gaining muscle, focusing on my own interests and doing things without her, however, I am reluctant to be too blatant and do something like flirt with other women in front of her. I don’t want her to mistakenly think I am cheating on her… Dread seems… Read more »

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Dr. Jeremy, great respect for your work but your seeming intention to further the equalitarian model has blinded you to the reality of Female Shit Tests. Men Shit test other men and it is indeed a dominance play BUT not in the same way that Women Shit test men. Consider the 4 possible Shit test conditions: 1. Men Shit testing one another: This is usually playful banter with laughing and bro talk. However, men will stop and back off if somebody doesn’t “Get It” or this will be clearly viewed as an unfriendly act. They will not be friends any… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy That self+1 effect for intelligence in women’s preferences does not surprise me. My point is that we can (and do) find that same self+1 effect in men for physical attractiveness. Men who are better looking than their wives are often miserable. Both sexes are looking for a +1 effect in the other, just along different dimensions. No doubt about it. But I wonder if it’s a bit different for men. For instance when I met my wife in college she just turned 18 and I just turned 20. She had a boyfriend but that didn’t slow anyone… Read more »

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@Glenn Worst part of the Red Pill? Seeing how I fucked it all up. Really. Could not agree more. There’s days when I get up in the morning, sit on the edge of the bed, and just feel like I wish I could forget what I’ve learned. I wish I could close Pandora’s Box and stuff all the knowledge of the stupid shit I’ve done back in there. Just go back to sleep and plug back in. But then I realize: while I can see how fucked up things are and that’s a bit depressing, I was completely and utterly… Read more »

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@ Bluepillprofessor Thank you. To be clear, I have no intention of furthering any particular model, equalitarian or otherwise. I apply the model or models that best fit the data as I see it. Sure, I’m not perfect and may get stuck here and there, but I adjust over time with new data. Beyond that, I do try to avoid falling into the black-or-white thinking that is rampant in both the manosphere and femosphere. Women shriek that it is “all social construction and the sexes are the same”, so men knee-jerk react back that it is all “evolved biology and… Read more »

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@Rollo

Not at all. Go for it.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo, I never said hypergamy was socially constructed. Of course that is biological for all of the reasons you cite. Women have a dual mating strategy for good genes and resources. No argument there. My argument is that how acutely men feel the need to perform up to those standards is determined by his SMV. If he is high in value, then he will be meeting or exceeding those standards, and will not feel a pressure of performance. My argument is also that men have standards for women, particularly on reproductive value. Usually they matter less, because the woman… Read more »

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This married woman came onto me online. As in she sends me a message basically saying that she wanted to give me a blowjob. I responded. We didn’t even “sext”, like we talked a little about sex but we didn’t actually do anything. She talked to me a lot about how unhappy she was with her husband and how she’d asked for an open relationship, had an affair before, etc. after the initial messages. Plus it’s online, so like, what the hell, right? Oh yeah. That was my first mistake. Long story short, shit hit the fan when apparently she… Read more »

agent p
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@softek Nice job man, offers for unsolicited hummers, good work. You are just seeing deep seated cognitive dissonance at work. “It couldn’t possibly be the woman’s fault, I mean a woman wouldn’t do that would she? Nah, impossible, kill the man, it was surly his fault”. This is the same line of reasoning that men step out on their marriages far more often then women. Ok, if that’s the case, there are a few slut women somewhere getting laid a whole hell of a lot with all manner of horny men. It’s a trope that simply props up and protects… Read more »

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Oh yeah, and she also picked you because she guessed you wouldn’t have the social intelligence to battle her hamster jiujitsu if it all came to light as it has. She did not and does not know that you have the manual.

What do you want to bet she’ll be back in say four weeks?

Softek
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I am more fucking pissed off than I’ve been in a while as I’ve thought over the past few experiences I had. Including the one I just mentioned, being told to “grow a pair…or like, ten” by that girl on New Year’s when I had an anxiety attack when she tried to kiss me, started crying saying I was rejecting her when I told her I have panic disorder and she didn’t care, and tonight at my friend’s, his sister who LJBF’d me months ago, who I see there once in a while, just casually shows me some pic from… Read more »

Softek
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@ agent p lol, that made me feel a little better, thanks. It’s the legal stuff and death threats that really throws me off. If I wasn’t afraid someone was going to try to hurt me or someone was going to make up some BS story, like I’m pretty sure this lady did — she really might be crazy, sounded like she told people that I was saying “inappropriate things” to her and of course didn’t mention how she started it AND kept pressing me to talk to her — …..like seriously, if I wasn’t afraid for my personal safety… Read more »

David W
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@ Glenn ” Really, I lived in a sort of cognitive dissonance, “keeping two sets of books” as Christopher Hitchens called it”

Ahh, I miss that guy.

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@Softek Hahahahaha, oh god bro, so it’s story time. The only time I fucked around with a married chick was when her husband knew she had developed a crush on me when their marriage went to shit. We spent YEARS talking but not doing anything because I just didn’t want to have a part in ruining a marriage that could be saved. Then it happened. He cheated on her despite nothing ever happening. Alright, maybe I couldn’t blame the dude. I mean hell, if I put myself in his shoes, I was better looking than him plus he’s like over… Read more »

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@Softek And to make you feel better about your situation: you’re dealing with Internet Tough Guys. Do not back down, do not supplicate, and do not show weakness. Tell them in no uncertain terms to get fucked with a scorching hot rake and talk to your lawyer if they want any further communication with you. They will do absolutely nothing. Not a goddamn thing. ITGs bark but they NEVER bite. They are universally pussies. Don’t even use the phrase “I’m sorry but…” In fact the word “sorry” should not come from you in any way at any point. You have… Read more »

agent p
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@Softek “even if I AM successful with women, how do I protect myself against getting a bad reputation or getting into trouble, having rumors spread against me, etc.? ” Slow your roll there buddy. That whole, what if I get a bad rap thing? The greatest mistake I ever made in my sweet young life was listen to chicks when then would say, “hey mister, you have a bad reputation, I know you, you’re Agent P, and you fuck chicks and then run!”. I foolishly took that accusation to heart after a while and resolved to try and tidy up… Read more »

agent p
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@softek, what Sun said, they are paper tigers growling over the interweb, fuck them. Maintain your frame, don’t blink, you’ll be fine. It’s easy to think after reading a ton of manosphere stuff that the whole world is aligned against you. Even if it is, it doesn’t actually matter that much, you haven’t done anything wrong, at all. Telling them to go fuck themselves is a good start. Answering their accusations comes off as if you have something to hide. The less you say, the better. If the husband is going nuclear, it’s because deep in his little wittle blue… Read more »

Softek
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@ Sun Wukong Haha. Yep. Story time. Beta Hamster. I forgot about that one. So that’s what that is. When the guy told me to stop sending messages to his wife, I said okay, I’m done. He says thank you. And then the next day he throws in something like by the way, you’re lucky I don’t live near you, otherwise you’d be eating out of a straw for the rest of your life. While I imagined pounding his fat beta ass into the ground if he ever laid a hand on me, I responded by saying my dad was… Read more »

Softek
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@ agent p I freaked and deleted the messages a day or two ago like a retard. I don’t know what I was thinking, probably residual feelings of having ‘done something wrong’ when I didn’t do anything wrong in reality. I only have a few. None of the original ones. But just her sending me messages saying she wishes I could meet her son, he needs a good friend like me, and giving me a compliment on how good I was at playing music. But yeah, no trolling here. I’m amazed myself if I think about it, but the change… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Softek For the future when shit like that goes down, hold frame hold frame hold frame. Do not explain yourself, do not argue with anybody. Treat them like they just said the stupidest thing in the world and that every word out of their mouth puts more stupid in the atmosphere that other people might breathe in. “Fuck off. I have nothing to say to you.” Be as condescending and terse as you possibly can. Look down your nose on them from 50 stories in the air. Now for the legal side of it (your dad being a cop and… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Or there’s always the advice I’ve heard:

Be like Han

Dawg
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At office, I keep my distance from women. Now, from some, considerably younger ones, I get very subdued IOIs. Now, there is a lady, 34, attractive, hitting the wall, in a LTR with a high-value beta, who had been throwing IOIs at me in the past, even DTF body language, yet I always was circumspect around her (office + her LTR). Thing is, this lady fives me shit from time to time, and I can’t decide whether she’s just giving me bad attitude or she’s shit-testing me. Any opinions, gentlemen?

M Simon
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Not Born This Morning
January 14th, 2015 at 6:40 pm

NBTM – Never have children.

M Simon
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Women in the workplace. See one get a beat down in public:

Male readers don’t think sexism in science exists
http://www.ecnmag.com/blogs/2015/01/male-readers-don%E2%80%99t-think-sexism-science-exists

M Simon
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Softek January 15th, 2015 at 3:39 am This woman is a full grown adult, and yet having excuses made for her by her daughter, and all the blame goes on me Young women these days….. I’d use other words, but I have a daughter. They are clueless. I tried to RP my daughter and she would have none of it. Very bright girl (top of her class in ChemE). At least a 9.5 (models). And totally into equalist relations. But she is young (24). I expect when she hits the wall (she is aware of THAT) she might be amenable… Read more »

jf12
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@DrJ, re: “Social engineering has therefore not created hypergamy, women’s standards, men’s standards, or the notion of performance. What it is doing is devaluing men and making it harder for them to be high value, dominate, and therefore have choice. So, they are further subjected to women’s standards, feel more pressure, and get the short end of the stick.” I agree. Getting back to the sexual conflict aspect, 100% of the sexual revolution was intended to make it easier for a woman to resist bearing a man’s child, and harder for a man to overcome her resistance. re: “The lower… Read more »

jf12
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@agent p, re: “I cannot strongly enough encourage you to get a bad rap if what you desire is some poon.”

+1, +2, … ∞

jf12
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@Softek, re: “apparently she told her husband or he read her messages or something”

Women don’t do Dread well, plus it doesn’t work the way women think.

Dr. Jeremy
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Alright, I think I have it now… I’m saying, at a social level, that men and women both have standards for each other. These standards are on different dimensions. Nevertheless, both feel pressure to live up to those standards, in order to obtain status, value, and get what they want. I am calling that “performance”. I think Rollo is saying that, on a biological level, men have unchanging standards for women, while women have shifting standards for men (based on ovulation). So, these standards are different because one is a static target and one is a changing target. This also… Read more »

jf12
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@DrJ re: “However, when a woman is leading, things are unstable because what she wants changes, and she has to “shit test” routinely to get her ever-changing need met.”

Good stuff!

re: “I would encourage adding a social level of analysis too. So, if men find it valuable here as another perspective, I will continue to add it.”

Please do. But remember the War Bride phenomenon. Levels of social value and Dominance and love interact extremely differently in men vs women. The two sexes have to be treated differently even though they’re intertwined.

Rol
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Dr. Jeremy, VERY compelling arguments. In fact, your take seems to explain damn near everything I’ve experienced/witnessed including my own actions and feelings.

I seem to learn something new with each blog post. Can’t compliment you enough Rollo T.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ jf12 re: “The lower value and less dominant person in a relationship, man or woman, experience those feelings.” No. The love feeling is biological, not about dominance. Males in love are neurologically deceived into thinking their woman is the only one, while women in love are neurologically deceived into thinking their man is the best one. BTW did you see this recipe for falling in love? It works, and is not about dominance. Thank you. I have read Dr. Aron’s work. On a social dynamic level though, the effects of his process can be explained with compliance and value.… Read more »

jf12
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@DrJ, re: tactics. It is extremely easy to take the sexual conflict stuff at face value, and one doesn’t have to take it to an extreme. Given that the male strategy is to overcome female resistance leads, lets say, to a lot of tactics that *work* in practice. Obviously you can’t recommend a guy chasing a woman down, pinning her to the floor, etc. And if you’re like the majority of men you would shy away from even thinking about it, much less advising someone to behave as if. So, understand that you’re crippled in your thinking, and necessarily your… Read more »

jf12
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@DrJ, re: “So, it is BOTH about compliance/value on the social level AND neurology and chemicals on the bio level. Otherwise, “demonstrating value”, “being hard to get”, and “compliance tests” (social), would not leads to “tingles” (biological).”

Yes, but the other, and bigger, point for me is that it works differently (NOT parallel) for men and for women. Good article, btw, I haven’t read much before last year.

re: taking. When a woman is forced into service, when she even reluctantly prepares a sandwich and it is violently taken from her, she responds totally differently than a man.

jf12
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re: women of “high value” and challenges

I truly don’t think it works that way, at all. I truly believe I would value compliance as much or more from an unusually compliant woman as from the normal i.e. uncompliant woman.

The point of overcoming resistance is NOT to see how much resistance you can overcome, but simply to be able to overcome. In contrast, the point of resistance is to resist as much overcoming as you can. These strategies are in no way parallel.

jf12
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So, why do so many women think being challenging is more attractive to men?

jf12
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Why do so many women erroneously think men have rape fantasies?

jf12
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Then, tell me again about women’s shit-testing in the context of her attraction to a man.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ jf12

Here is what I don’t understand… Why is “the bigger point” that these similar macro-level dynamics “work differently” for men and women on a micro-level?

Let’s say you want to train a rabbit and a dog to do tricks. On a macro-level, it is important to understand how all animals similarly respond to rewards to change behavioral frequency. On a micro-level, it is also important to know that each animal finds different food rewarding (carrot vs. steak) and can perform different behaviors as tricks (hop vs. fetch). To me, both are necessary.

jf12
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@DrJ, re: bigger

The bigger point about the interaction between a cat and a mouse is that the cat is trying to eat the mouse. The behaviors are different because the motivations are *opposed*.

The only reason to try to focus on similarities, such as “they both have whiskers”, is to distract from the bigger point.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ jf12 The cat-vs-mouse conflict is a one-sided model. The mouse does not want anything from the cat. In that case, the over-arching dynamic is indeed not similar for the cat and mouse. With humans, however, the conflict is usually two sided. Yes, each wants something different from the other (like two nations with different resources) – BUT they both want something from the other. So, the over-arching dynamic of power, value, and compliance that ultimately decides the conflict and outcome is the same. Then again, I am making the assumption that the man DOES want anything at all from… Read more »

agent p
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@jf12
“Why do so many women erroneously think men have rape fantasies?”

Can we say “projection”?

Glenn
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@ Sun Wukong – Holy shit, thanks for that. You homed right in on it for me – I’ve been struggling to find a place of compassion for myself. Pre-Red Pill and post, I’ve always tried to be rational and responsible in my life, so now that I see more clearly what’s up, I have to assess the responsibility in order to know what mistakes I’ve made. It’s this kind of honesty that has helped me progress in all things I endeavor in, but it’s brutal and I’m honest enough with myself to look squarely at where I’m responsible for… Read more »

zdr01dz
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I think Rollo is saying that, on a biological level, men have unchanging standards for women, while women have shifting standards for men (based on ovulation). So, these standards are different because one is a static target and one is a changing target. This also means that a woman’s value to a man (and ability to get what she wants) is fairly stable, whereas a man’s value to a woman (and ability to get what he wants) changes on a cycle. Rollo is calling men’s attempts to hit that moving and changing target “performance” too (hence my confusion). Now I… Read more »

jf12
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re: “The mouse does not want anything from the cat.”

Mice want cats to HAVE to be bigger and faster.

jf12
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I’m so there. Exactly where B/el told me I’d wind up; she knew all long. And this was the cause of our second or third biggest blowup: I denied this is where I’d wind up.

It’s very meta. The female-preferred strategy is sexual conflict; the mouse wants eating it to be difficult. The male-preferred strategy is sexual cooperation; the (hungry) cat wants the eating to be easy. But preferring conflict is *itself* in conflict with preferring cooperation. Hence the Matrix is Feminine. Q.E.D.

jf12
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The Will to Power is the Will to Pounce.

“You’re not hungry” is a Jedi mind trick.

“There is no mouse for you” is a Jedi mind trick.

jf12
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Except as practice/training/building hunger
“Playing/pretending is fun enough; no need to actually eat me” is a Jedi mind trick.

zdr01dz
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Women who are told that men desire larger-body women are happier with their weight
In all three studies, women had higher levels of satisfaction with their own weight after viewing the images of the larger women who were portrayed as attractive to men, while statistically controlling their actual weight.

Brought to you by Nabisco.

jf12
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“Acing the test”, then, is regarding the mouse’s stopping to squeakily roar as a fine opportunity.

Water Cannon Boy
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That kind of interaction between the niece and nephew is what lays the ground work for all the girls who state that they need somebody older than they are because they think girls mature faster than boys. Every guy that’s charmed, kept entertained, or flirted with girl that he ended up getting to know has used the same playful teasing and other techniques that are used in passing the active and passive testing. Whether it’s niece/nephew, cousins, father/daughter, or kids that get to know each other hanging out at the local rec center. The same charming ways that end up… Read more »

eon
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@ Softek You are learning a valuable lesson, and one that highlights a problem with the PUA ethos: if you choose to live by the rules of the jungle, the jungle will ensure that you live by all of them. It is Nature, and not the “people steeped in the FI”, that doesn’t let you pick and choose. Leaving aside the true nature of women and our artificial society, you and some woman were taking the first steps toward depriving another man of his property (his wife), and possibly more. While you are certainly not the only one involved, or… Read more »

Softek
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@ Glenn Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. This was a great experience for me to really understand that — I’m used to being victimized and I used to revel in it. People have always tried to give me their shit. I got a book called Running on Empty: Overcoming your Childhood Emotional Neglect and that’s been helping a bit, though I completely ignored the sections about ‘expressing your feelings’ — — I DO think that getting in touch with my feelings IN PRIVATE is important, and the perfect example would be realizing that my rage is mine: it… Read more »

jf12
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I admit I was snookered. Tina Plantamura’s Letter was her reaction attempt upon reading Candice Curry’s Letter. https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/moms-amazing-letter-to-her-daughters-stepmom-104935124702.html According to the back story, Candice was a “challenge” who got married in her mid 20s to a nice guy, had a kid, fell out of love, got unhaaaappy, got divorced, got a new lesser guy after hitting the Wall, had fertility issues, had triplets, got weird and tried to blow up the second marriage, etc. In other words, the usual story. Meanwhile, Mr. Ex married a much more gorgeous much younger chick (a little more than a decade younger; Ashley was… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Rollo – I realize you are trying posit a purely biological driver for hypergamy for the purposes of clarity, but I’m curious about it from another perspective, and the graphs you just shared make the question obvious. Women’s strategies change. Just stop there. This means they are likely adapting and optimizing as active agents acting on their own interests. Or is it that the underlying biology (hormones etc) change as women age? My take is that women are simply reacting to their changing place in the sexual marketplace, and when switching from mostly AF to mostly BB are merely… Read more »

Softek
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@ eon I see it completely differently: the guy’s wife isn’t his “property”, and the victim here is that guy — a victim of his own laziness and ignorance, and complete and utter lack of self-improvement. I was having problems with women, so what did I do? I improved myself. I expended the effort to learn and grow. This guy did NOT improve himself. He’s in a shitty situation and he’s doing absolutely nothing to improve himself. His wife told me she already had a REAL affair with one of her neighbors a while back and he was enraged about… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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M Simon (aka alpha female drone)

You are eclipsed. I have children.

Make sure you never face reality completely. Ignorance is bliss….

Joe Blow
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@Glenn – I share your No Fucks Given attitude and appreciate it. That’s how I get away with a lot of stuff. It’s a good and liberating approach to life. If you can do that and are effective and involved in life, not a MGTOW, I think that approaches the idea of being Sigma. I do disagree on the ballbusting thing. While there is hazing / initiation, I think it’s a threshold test for group membership, not really to show alpha-ness. If you decide to be butthurt, you’re voting yourself out of the group. I think it really is only… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn

Glad I could help. So much of a Man’s focus is on becoming responsible and becoming a leader that sometimes it’s easy to forget part of being a good leader is being fair. Particularly with yourself.

Glenn
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@ Softek – Great comment. In fact, you are exactly right. The SMV is always running and it forgives nothing, and doesn’t really care if you put a ring on it. I’m getting quite interested in pre-agriculture neo-lithic humans who seemed to be quite socially stable with poly amorous societies in which seuxuality was more free. I look at the Etruscan society (post agricultural) with similar relish. Sexuality was not shamed there, and in fact it was reveled in. But guys, in that model, she’s never “your’s”. And you are never her’s. I’m great with that but i sense many… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Joe Blow – Hmmm, so you think that male ball busting isn’t also about establishing hierarchy – not just friendly banter? I couldn’t disagree more. And when I think about it, the only time I get in someone’s face about ball busting is when they are trying to establish dominance over me in a social circle. When it’s friendly ball busting, I go on just like you do and enjoy it. But to me, there is a difference and if you want me to submit to your dominance, you better damn well have earned it with me. I’m not… Read more »

Softek
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For the record, I’m going to be working with some guy’s wife, hopefully taking her on as one of my clients. I have a lot of respect for this guy and I would never think of messing that up. Kind of like my best friend’s girlfriend, who is super hot and I’d love to fuck, but a lot of times he’s literally been the only person there for me. I want to be a scumbag to a degree but not a sociopath who’ll stab my friends in the back. I can’t deny I’m sexually attracted to both of them. These… Read more »

jf12
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Sexual conflict explains everything sexually selected. For primates all male-specific behaviors (e.g. infanticide, rape) and all female-specific behaviors (teasing, “let’s you and him fight”) are too obviously in opposition, and all non-sex-specific behaviors are simply not sex-selected.

Stumpf et al. 2011. Sexual conflict in primates. Evolutionary Anthropology, 20(2), 62–75.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/evan.20297/full

The (female) authors argue that “the slow adoption of sexual conflict in traditional sexual selection theory may be due to the many unresolved discrepancies”, instead of the more obvious “we don’t like it because the implications are ugly”.

Sun Wukong
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@Softek Re: your married chick situation. If I had to be honest, while I’m certainly not above mate poaching (when >5% of the women in a population are HB6+, you’re gonna have to poach any remotely cute chick) I won’t be bothering with married poon again in the future. Obviously not for any moral reasons, and not because of fear. The guy that threatened me lived a mile and a half away and knows where my house is. The fact that I still haven’t moved should tell you I don’t scare easily at all. It’s simply that it’s all annoying… Read more »

jf12
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Sexual conflict explains everything sexually selected. For humans all male-specific behaviors (e.g. Game) and all female-specific behaviors (hidden ovulation) are too obviously in opposition, and all non-sex-specific behaviors are simply not sex-selected.

Mulder, M. and Rauch, K. 2009. Sexual conflict in humans: variations
and solutions. Evolutionary Anthropology, 18, 201–214.
http://anthropology.ucdavis.edu/people/fzborger/profile_and_papers/bm-rauch_2009.pdf

The (female) authors argue that if there is conflict it is because females ought to win. Or something.

Glenn
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@ jf12 – The sexual conflict stuff is fascinating, and seems spot on, thanks for finding it and sharing it with us. Real shocker that female authors find anything that doesn’t aggrandize their interests shocking. But that must be a socially constructed thing (even though it happens across cultures)…

Softek
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@ Glenn That’s what I was talking with her about. Almost everything we exchanged messages about was about her marriage. I said a whole lot about my thoughts: that sexuality should be free, if I was in a marriage and it really was that bad, I’d rather let myself have sex with other guys, and let myself have sex with other women, than to keep a passionless marriage going. And I said I didn’t know how he was okay with this, like it’s so important for a woman to want you — how could he be okay with knowing she… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn Interesting way of looking at male interaction. What I’m seeing in your assessment is the ability to distinguish between Posture Talk and Power Talk within social circles. http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ Typical male ball-busting among friends would be a light-hearted version of Posture Talk. Almost a parody of it intended to make everyone involved laugh. What pisses you off is when somebody attempts to engage in actual Power Talk and assert social dominance, and it can take a degree of social intelligence to even recognize it’s happening. I personally tend to subscribe to the belief that even the most innocuous interactions involving… Read more »

jf12
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Male authors are considerably less squeamish. “The evolutionary interests of human males and females are certainly asymmetrical, so there is no reason to doubt that sexual conflict occurred throughout our evolutionary history.”

Shackelford et al. 2012. Sexual Conflict in Humans. In: The Oxford Handbook of Sexual Conflict in Humans. T. Shackelford and A. Goetz, eds. Oxford University Press.
http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780195396706.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780195396706-e-1

Not Born This Morning
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Jeremy “January 14th, 2015 at 6:25 pm @Not Born This Morning ALPHA FUCKS = Bad Boy = Sexual Pet BETA BUCKS = Good Dad = Good Provider BOTH of these male characterizations are feminine primary. I’m not sure what you mean by feminine primary.” Thank you for your comment. I suspected some would not comprehend what I ment by classifying both AF and BB as female primary. This realization and truth requires clarification for those who are not aware. All traits, characteristics and behaviors of both AF and BB are defined by what women desire innately or otherwise. This is… Read more »

Softek
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@ Sun Wukong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLXq6pJnr_c How’s that for a flip in musical taste compared to what I shared just above? LOL. What can I say, I’m an interesting guy. But yeah, I’m with you on that. It ain’t worth it. As soon as that guy sent me that message I said “ok, I’m done”. Then it turned into a fiasco where I thought I blocked her, but I apparently didn’t confirm the block, so she was still on my friends list. And then she tried to keep contacting me and that’s when the guy’s daughter found she was still friends with… Read more »

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@Rollo

… that is an absolutely sublime description of the situation. It even explains why emotional investment is such an incredibly risky proposition for women. It’s why men can afford to have idealistic views of love but women simply can’t, and why men are polygynous but women are hypergamous.

Glenn
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@ Not Born This Morning – No, all you’ve demonstrated is reductio ad absurdum and semantic masturbation. Top it off with noticing that it’s a ‘distinction without a difference’ and yeah, that’s about it…

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