Acing the Test

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One of the first observations formal PUAs had when they were testing and refining their methods was that of the now ubiquitous shit tests women would present them with. It’s important to put this testing dynamic into context because, as most any guy who’s ever made an approach will tell you (not just PUAs) there comes a stage in that approach when a girl will set up a challenge for a guy. However, as any married man will tell you, that’s not where the shit tests end.

Over the holidays I was hanging out with my brother and watching my niece and nephew interact. My nephew is 16 and his sister is a very mature 12, but to see them interact, it’s one shit test after another. There’s the fluid teasing and taunting that comes from siblings that genuinely like each other (well, mostly), but as I watch these two interact I thought back to how my brother and I used to give each other shit, smack each other around and basically roughhouse like boys used to be able to do before a feminine-primary society decided they needed to be medically sedated for their ‘condition’.

I’ve explored this in Amused Mastery, but there’s a natural flow that’s learned between an older brother and a younger sister (or sometimes a capricious younger brother to an older sister) that translates to an intersexual relating with men and women later in adulthood. My brother is very conventionally masculine, a somewhat natural Alpha in his mindset, and his positive masculine frame carries over into his role as a father. This sets the environment in which his son and daughter are learning intertersexual interactions with one another. Both are very headstrong, but also respectful in a way that only a positively male dominant father can inspire.

I bring this up because I feel this learning illustrates both the problem most men later have with shit tests as well as the key to capitalizing on them.

No Passing

You’ll notice I didn’t say ‘pass’ the shit test. I think it’s a misnomer to view shit tests as a pass or fail proposition. Most men like that easy binary win-lose proposition, but the problem I have with that is that ‘passing’ a shit test implies finality. You will always be shit tested by a woman, so you never really pass that test, however you can and should turn those tests to your advantage.

Many a well meaning Red Pill woman (and a few Purple Pill ‘life coaches’) who don’t like offending the delicate sensibilities of today’s virtuous women like to call these tests ‘fitness’ tests. The renaming sprays a bit of perfume on an otherwise unflattering aspect of women’s Hypergamous psyches, but under that scent is the same truth,…

Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re made aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.

I think the early PUAs were correct in calling these test ‘shit tests’ because the nature of those tests they met in their field approaches were very much like the ‘shit’ they’d given and been given by their male peers throughout much of their lives. Part of the male experience is giving your friends ‘shit’, ribbing them, messing with them and otherwise talking ‘shit’ with them. If you’re in a fantasy football league you probably get that “smack talking” has been raised to an art form.

In this context it’s not so much a fitness test as it is a form of male-specific camaraderie – if it’s a test of anything it’s a test for the social intelligence that a guy gets that his friend is giving him ‘shit’ and can laugh about it and give as good as he got. This is part of men’s preferred overt form of communication which baffles women unfamiliar with it; if I’m playfully insulting you, if I’m messing with you, it means I consider you a friend and I expect that you’ll ‘just get it’ that you know this when I do.

Sadly this is often the first offense women take when they insert themselves into Male Spaces. They take the ‘shit talk’ personally, or at the very least have to make an effort (they believe they shouldn’t have to) to communicate in the open, often vulgar, but no less meaningful ways men do. Unless they were raised in the increasingly rare household of a strong masculine influence (fathers or brothers) it’s likely these women won’t “just get it” and bend their efforts to change that communication to something she’s more comfortable with, and something her feminine-primary expectations convince her is correct.

Getting the Test

Even if you had the benefit of having your bratty sister punch you in the arm after teasing her you may not realize this is a form of shit testing you. One of the most important aspects of dealing with a shit test is understanding the basic fundament of Just Getting It:

She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.

Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.

A woman wants to know a guy Just Gets It, but she still needs a method to determine that he does – ergo she shit tests. For women, this method must be in as covert a form as possible to protect the integrity of not exposing her own sexual strategy to herself.

When openly analyzed this seems like madness to men’s striving for a rational solution to a problem, but her method comes from a subconscious want of not having to convince her hindbrain that he does in fact get it – and gets it so well that he neither acknowledges it overtly nor asks for her assistance in figuring her shit test out.

Observing and / or explicating a process will change that process, and a woman’s Hypergamous hindbrain knows this.

From Plate Theory VI:

Essentially a shit test is used by women to determine one, or a combination of these factors:

a.) Confidence – first and foremost
b.) Options – is this guy really into me because I’m ‘special’ or am I his only option?
c.) Security – is this guy capable of providing me with long term security?

I would also add that these requisites imply a testing for masculine dominance as well as his sexual market value. Women want a man that other women want to fuck, and other men want to be. The conflict inherent in women’s shit testing is that she must simultaneously determine a man has other sexual options than her while also attempting to limit those option and making herself his primary focus.

There’s always been some debate as to whether women are unaware of their subconscious shit testing or if those tests come from a fully aware and deliberate intent. I understand the rational want of men to hold women’s feet to the fire and accept a personal responsibility for their action – shit tests naturally seem like a huge waste of time, not to mention duplicitous and false to men who value straight-talk solutions – but I’m going to argue that these tests are both intentional and subconscious depending on the context in which she delivers a shit test.

However, whether intended or not, it’s more important for guys to get that a woman’s testing is rooted in her inherent Hypergamous uncertainty. And that uncertainty extends to both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of her Hypergamy. Women’s doubt of a man’s Hypergamous suitability is a constant, though subconscious effect for her.

Active Testing

When a woman actively, consciously, shit tests you, understand that it is always intentional. This type of shit test is the most common one PUAs encounter in the clubs or whatever their preferred venue may be. With the exception of maybe Day Game, women in these arenas are expecting men to sarge them, and therefore the propensity to deliver a prepared shit test is a conscious decision on her part. For the most part these tests amount to a fun game for her that serve the purpose of determining a guy’s SMV and his Hypergamy optimization potential.

An active test is entertainment to her in the same way it is for a bratty sister and her older brother. There’s usually a lot of witty (hopefully on your part) push-pull to this shit test exchange, but the latent purpose is her subconscious probing you for the possibility that you might ‘get it’ – that you might be able to play the game rather than having to explain it to her or having it explained to you.

As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but a lot of men (particularly overly conditioned Betas) come to believe that any impropriety on his part might be taken as an offensive so they never boldly push back on these test as they should. They fall back on the “Yes M’Lady” white knight script they believe will set them apart from “other guys”, but the guys who ‘get it’ aren’t confused by shit tests. A big brother hits his bratty sister back when they’re play fighting; not so much as to harm her, but just enough to show her who’s stronger, who’s in control of his situation and isn’t afraid to push her back.

If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so. A lot of men mistake a woman’s “Bitch Shield” as a cue of disinterest or disgust, when in fact these are often calculated shit tests. There are many ways to push past a Bitch Shield for a guy with the brass (and interest) to do so, but it’s a woman’s indifference, not her poised contempt, that cues disinterest.

Active tests are what single men are most likely to encounter in women, and it’s important for these men to understand that this type of test isn’t something you pass, but rather something you capitalize on. For a guy with even a basic grasp of Game these test should be considered nothing but softballs for him to hit out of the park.

Things to remember are Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify and a basic Cocky & Funny ambience while employing them. I should also add that women deliberately putting themselves into social environments (like a club) who are delivering active shit test are likely at the ovulation point of their Estrus phase – adjust your Game (and birth control methods) accordingly.

If you recognize that you’re being actively shit tested always remember, play with her, and play with her. Shit tests of this nature are opportunities to build attraction as well as arousal, and women want you to get that they are opportunities.

Passive Testing

While active testing is done in awareness with intent by a woman (with only a passing element of her subconsciously doing so), a passive shit test is a reflexive, subconscious test rooted in a woman’s Hypergamous insecurities. In an active test, the latent purpose is one of playfully determining Hypergamous optimization of a new prospective mate. A passive test is rooted in the Hypergamous doubt that a woman’s choice to settle with that man was in fact the best optimization her SMV could afford her.

Passive testing always asks the question that her nagging, hindbrain Hypergamy can’t give a voice to, “Did I make the right choice? Is this guy really the Alpha I thought he was or could be?’

Passive testing is constantly exacerbated or defined by her previous sexual experiences (or lack thereof) or the fantasies of what could be if her circumstances were to change. For women, this is the mental space where the Alpha Widow dynamic is harbored. This is a where the subconscious testing of the man whom she consolidated monogamy with meets her unconscious comparing of him with her past, idealized experiences – or the experiences she believes could be possible if she could determine his suitability for her.

For the most part these tests are ones of measuring his performance and provisioning capacity against his Alpha tingles generating capacity. Passive tests are insidious in that they need a satisfaction of so many Hypergamous elements: Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks, the outperforming of past or fantasized sexual competitors, pushback masculine dominance, status, and many other prerequisites of long term Hypergamous optimization.

As you’ll probably guess the passive test is usually reserved for marriages and LTRs (live in arrangements being common). Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test, however you might get one from your mother or a close female relative who needs some reassurance from you (or wants to put you in your place as a Beta). Passive tests seem to be the most hurtful, but it’s important to predict when they’ll come, what’s triggered them and the root insecurity behind them that women either aren’t consciously aware of or can’t openly reveal because, once again, it ruins the game and her determining if you ‘just get it’ without being told.

As with active tests demonstration, not explication, is the key to resolving and capitalizing on them. These are the types of tests that aggravate most men because they generally feel they’re locked into solving them. Thus, they make grandly overt affairs of bringing a woman’s ‘bull shit’ to light in an effort to quell her insecurities, but also to feel like they’re reasonably holding her personally accountable for her “stupid shit testing”.

And as with most similar efforts, appealing to a woman’s reason never ‘solves’ her problem. Hypergamy doesn’t reason, Hypergamy only feels. Demonstrating you get what she’s doing will help you capitalize on her insecurities far more than explicating that you know what she’s doing by shit testing you.

You’ll probably have guessed that passive tests are most commonly generated while a woman is in the luteal phase of her menstrual cycle, but it when that insecurity relates to her partner’s Alpha suitability there is some crossover into her proliferative phase. It’s important for married men to determine the nature of his wife’s insecurity with regard to her tests and when they’re most commonly delivered.

If she’s testing you at or around her ovulatory window, if she’s regularly insisting on a Girls Night Out around this time (yes, it’s a shit test), if she’s not sexually interested in you during her estrus, it’s likely she’s uncertain about your Alpha Fucks suitability to her. If her tests come during her luteal phase, if she’s nagging or provoking you about money, emotional availability or even how she wants to live closer to her parents, it’s likely her insecurity is based on her perception of your status, provisioning capacity or your Beta Bucks potential to make more of it.

While these types of shit tests based on Hypergamous insecurity may seem like a lost cause, understand that many of the same techniques used to capitalize on active tests still apply. Not all passive tests are delivered in the negative, and applications like Command Presence and Agree & Amplify demonstrate to a woman that you get it, that you see her tests for what they are, and you’re prepared for them without revealing the game you both know you’re playing.

Even well timed Amused Mastery (after you’ve established mastery of her) is enough to defuse a shit test with potentially negative implications. Once the precedence of your mastery is set it’s an easy fallback she’ll expect from you.

Granted, there are more direct ways of demonstrating your optimization to her – staying in better shape than she’s in is an obvious one, casually emphasizing passive dread (a.k.a. married social proof) is another – but the important part is recognizing what aspect of her Hypergamy is generating that insecurity.

In closing here I feel it’s incumbent upon me to address the most obvious response most guys will have to all of this: “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit” to which I’ll say, “yeah, you’re right, it makes more sense just to disconnect entirely”.

It would be great if women could be relied upon to be rational, reasonable agents as most would like men to believe they are. I mean, they should be, right? You should just simply be able to say to a girl or your wife “Hey I know all the games your playing and why you’re playing them, so lets just drop all of the pretentiousness and get down to fucking and living, OK?” But all this amounts to is negotiating for her genuine desire. Real desire on a woman’s part never comes from rational, reasonable explanations of why she should desire you, it comes from your demonstrations and your example.

Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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jf12
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@Badpainter, re: “Game after commitment is a sort renegotiation of terms”

Oh, yeah! Maybe, just maybe, for some men it’s best built up to, like so many advise, as part of some overall self-improvement regimen. “Oh, by the way honey, in addition to more oatmeal in the mornings one of my resolutions involves me clawing back more of my testicles. Just thought I’d give you a heads up.”

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Despite ex post facto married Game advice, or rather stories about changing in-the-toilet marriage dynamics through Game, I cannot believe it has ever succeeded smoothly. Almost all post-honeymoon marriages suck because the women wanted it to suck. The whole point of changing that dynamic is to remove the women from power, totally.

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re: danger

Possibly, and I say probably, the level-testing that women’s shit-testing to men is all about is danger testing. In other words she isn’t seeing where she fits on some hierarchy with you, but what you’re capable of with her. Will you hit her? Will you do other things to her?

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jf – “Almost all post-honeymoon marriages suck because the women wanted it to suck.”

Why is that?

Most of my friends live that way. It seems as if marriage is too often transformational process from pleasant girlfriend to a consistently unhappy nagging thing. The cynic in me says the pleasant girlfriend was a ruse, an act, a false front that never actually existed.

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Another epic post. Rollo. As I’ve been digesting the Red Pill lately, I’ve come to realize how insecurity plagues my life. It’s worse for me than some, given my abusive, negligent and denigrating upbringing, but still I see the same thing in most men that I know. In fact, as I was reading this article and the comments it occurred to me that this entire site is given by male insecurity (to some degree, i’m not doing science, it’s just a POV that enlightens). And then it hit me. The entire male experience generates insecurity. It’s beat/disciplined into us from… Read more »

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Re: false front

I got it!

The whole per-marriage pleasant girl friend bit is explained by the old phrase about “making an honest woman” of her. Marriage frees her to be the succubus she honestly really wants to be.

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@Badpainter re: “Why is that?” No, I don’t think it’s a false front; I think women really do change. My working hypothesis is that hypergamy proceeds through serialization of monogamy by 1) The weedout process of mate selection. Some guy survives her shit-tests and other nonsense. The woman gets convinced, one way or the other, that this guy is the one that will be having sex with her for the foreseeable future. Her brain *then* decides he is the best one. For now. Ahh, love. 2) The spike of oxytocin starts the doomsday clock on the honeymoon period. But while… Read more »

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Speaking of tests, what is the most unusual “Get me MOAR!” pregnancy craving you personally have enabled? My first wife had a sudden surge of craving for orange stuff the last couple months, specifically artificial orange-flavored stuff (but not Tang), specifically innumerable freezing cold orange slushies and popsicles. “Keep ’em coming.” In the dead of winter. At 4:00 AM.

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@jf12 – My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on my by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my… Read more »

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After a string of failures I started my first successful business. I did all the work with the help of one employee. It didn’t take long until this guy started shit testing me. He called in sick, tried to push me around, complained about work, etc. etc. As a new boss this behavior came as a surprise. I clamped down but it never completely stopped. After a while the company grew large enough that I needed 2 employees. That stopped the shit testing and bad attitude on the spot. Once I had 2 employees he realized that he was very… Read more »

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@Glenn, re: “So much destruction and pain.”

I hear you. My ex never did remarry, but she got old really fast from 30 to 35 so maybe she couldn’t.

re: “My question is how much of this is coming from family systems versus the larger drivers? How much is actual pathology in some women versus just plain old hypergamy and women’s ways?”

I think the big driver (on women’s extremely lousy relationship behavior post-honeymoon) is biological. Secondarily are the social systems, including family dynamics, that are not designed to constrain women’s behaviors, to force them to unwillingly do what they ought to do.

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@jf12 if he tried to keep testing, then he was isolated. I think there’s a subtlety that’s being lost. Men do test each other, and they do test each other by giving each other shit. And, I will even agree that a man that is constantly and overtly testing you with shit is a douche who deserves the social isolation he gets. However, that’s not the end of the story. JF, are you saying that all “shit” tossed around in your friendly male circles ceases after an initial “test” ? I don’t think you mean that. Even in circles of… Read more »

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@Jeremy, re: “I submit that those are, in fact, tests”

I’m still not buying it because it doesn’t feel like a test, like a dare, like the way that women do it. And I don’t think it’s because of competitiveness or lack of it “I’m more uncompetitive than you!” I could call in sfcton for some support, maybe, but instead I’ll appeal to the chicks.

I mean chickens. Hens ruthlessly keep pecking each other and lesser males. Henpecking is a totally different beast than rooster pecking.

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Apparently constant pecking is a result of
1) An abundance mentality, with a lack of consequences for low-level pecking
2) A fluid social structure with levels constantly apt to change

Glenn
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@jf12 – So, by implication, you are claiming that the marriages that survive either have an uber alpha who is dominating his wife and suppressing her hypergamy by keeping her on defense or a Beta pussy who just keeps taking it? Isn’t that a little bleak? I try to be very careful to not treat what we do here as “science” but rather look at it as heuristics given the state of the science we are relying on (the best and brightest in the field claim much of what we know is still sketchy, for example the science Rollo cited… Read more »

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@jf12

I’m still not buying it because it doesn’t feel like a test, like a dare, like the way that women do it.

I don’t think anyone here has said that it is done “like women do it.” I’ll be the first to agree that female shit-testing is many times more harsh, emotionally taxing, and irrational than male friends giving each other shit on any random encounter.

That’s because it’s not a test of fitness for a (perhaps overvalued) vagina. Between men, it’s a test of state.

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@Glenn, re: the bleakness of “a different sort of nightmare”

I dunno. I feel like I was gaslighted my whole life about How Women Are in long term relationships, so I do think it is even more ubiquitous than casually observed. “Well, yeah, most women seem like they are like that at least somewhat, but Mrs. Jones three houses down doesn’t seem quite as bad.”

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@Jeremy, re: “Between men, it’s a test of state.”

Yes, “one of the guys”. Or not.

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@glenn “Sigh…Not feeling very hopeful today. I find sometimes the RP stuff just overwhelms me and makes me hopeless. I’ll admit it, sometimes the “burden of performance” just makes me want to shrug and lay down. It seems so harsh and cold. Maybe I’m just going through something, I don’t know.” It doesn’t seem like you have fully swallowed the RP. I treat RP like science because it in fact is. Unfortunately, feeling hopeless, laying down and being overwhelmed by the burden of performance is cancer and very negative to male masculinity. Everyone is playing the game, you either give… Read more »

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@jf12

Yes, “one of the guys”. Or not.

Or…
“Ready to go fishing, or not…”
“Ready to challenge me on the field, or not…”
“Ready to travel, or not…”
“Ready to accomplish something, or not…”

Men test each others fitness for battle, we test each other’s wits because it’s our wits that make us men.

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@Bromeo Also, in regards to “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit”, I find the whole MGTOW scene a beta escape. With knowledge of the RP tenants, gaming can be down with such ease. It is a beta escape. However, just as Neo needed time and a session of losing his stomach contents after learning the truth of the world, so too do men who have just unplugged, who have just seen the truth of women and female behavior… Read more »

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@Glenn My wife did turn on me after kids, but I turned on her too, to the extent that I turned fully Beta blue pill. I remember consciously thinking as I drove home from the hospital with my son and wife that, “OK, time to shape up, no more fucking around”. It was the start of the slide. She ended up retroactively renegotiating the terms of our marriage along the way and then claiming they never existed in the first place, (Good thing I had taken minutes of that meeting!). I will concede that she did not intend to turn… Read more »

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@ jf12 – I too feel like I’ve been gaslighted my whole life by women – and not just lovers and wives. It was particularly clear to me after a rapid loss of status (wealth/job/health-looks) at the same time. The women in my life turned on my like pit vipers. My reaction ever since the end of my marriage 22 years ago was to kick women to the curb when they get out of hand. In non-marriage relationships this happened like clockwork in month 4 and I exited or booted them by the end of month 6. 9 in a… Read more »

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The ability to evilly dominate her is what women are looking for.

Carter, G., Campbell, A., and Muncer, S. 2014. The Dark Triad personality: attractiveness to women. Personality and Individual Differences, 56, 57–61.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886913012245

The authors suggest that “sexual conflict” may be a much better explanation of the phenomena than “sexual selection” by women, but they flinch at making the final resolution.

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@bromeo Try to not get too down. This is for sure the downside of RP, you cannot un-see it. I too struggle with that burden of performance, it’s a double shit kicking when things are not going swimmingly because you have to fix what is not working in life, like say my business, and you have to live with the knowledge that you are likely a few pegs down in her eyes as well as a result of the problem you are addressing. This always for me comes back to frame and agency. If I roll over and lay there,… Read more »

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Do hen-pecked roosters *ever* get dehenpecked by the same group of hens? Ever? Or does he have to go throw his weight around from the get-go at a new roost?

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A woman says she confuses a wolf dressing as an enhanced wolf as a wolf dressing up as a sheep.

http://www.scienceofrelationships.com/home/2013/1/8/do-people-with-dark-personalities-enhance-their-physical-att.html

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My homework for the day:
1) understanding sexual conflict AS OPPOSED TO sexual selection. This looks like a fine review.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0003669.pub2/full
2) understanding why I didn’t know about this. Seriously.

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@jf12 “Do hen-pecked roosters *ever* get dehenpecked by the same group of hens? Ever? Or does he have to go throw his weight around from the get-go at a new roost?” So are you asking can a guy reframe his relationship with a pack of hyenas, ever? I say you can, but you have to follow the classic arc of a Joseph Campbell mythological story to some extent and the man must first triumph, then fail, then go away, then rebuild himself, then come back and he can conquer again a renewed and redeemed hero. In short I personally believe… Read more »

sfcton
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yea damn sure sounds like we are same freq but speaking to different aspects of life

jf12
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Quote for the day:
“Female struggle is a by-product of female resistance.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_conflict

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@ jf12 – My homework for the day: 1. Pull my head out of my ass. 2. Get back on mission. I’ll let you figure it all out for me It is really nice to be able to talk about all this shit though. And keep in mind, I’m 52 so the game is very different for me than you young guys. I many ways, I’m well past my prime and that in and of itself is pretty hard to face. No matter what I do, my SMV is declining rapidly. I am in the gym and doing everything I… Read more »

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@Glenn,
I have been meaning to ask you, what kind of boats did you race?
I understand if you cannot say too much as it can kind of quickly out one’s identity in the real world.

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@Glenn, re: mission.

We all have our gifts and callings. Right now, my first pass through the “sexual conflict” ideas leads me to propose a frustrated antiferromagnetic toy model, an alternating-generation cyclical model. Googleable technical terms for those willing and able. I’m now pondering a sociobiology version of the Néel temperature.

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@ agent p – Younger I did one designs, Blue Jays, Lightnings and crewed on a Soling. Older I did PHRF stuff on boats as varied as a Petersen 34, Contessa 38 (we made that pile of shit outperform her rating mostly because the owner just shut up and let us run the boat, lol), a big Tartan, Beneteaus and many other boats that I was transient crew on including J24s and another bigger Jboat. It was great fun, but I was never a big deal in any of it. It’s a very masculine undertaking and competitive as shit. I… Read more »

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Female resistance is the key concept of sexual conflict, I can confidently state after exercising my clicking finger for part of an hour. Hence the two sex’s competing strategies are *entirely*
1) For the females, how to better resist
2) For the males, how to better overcome resistance

There is nothing else involved.

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The existence of the FI matrix makes it all too clear the females have been winning, and now female resistance is all but optimized.

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Glenn: Re your 2015JAN14 09:33 comment: I also catch myself looking back and wondering what I could have done to see and to ”ace” my Ex’s shit tests. Or to simply be more dominant. Replace your “hot” with my “crazy,” and our experiences are similar. (I swear she has some kind of chemical imbalance like her diagnosed bi-polar father.) And like you, the “unwinnable” feeling was there too. We always played on her emotional and rhetorical field (frame.) My Ex also worked tirelessly to successfully alienate my now-adult daughters from me. My girls occasionally see thru my Ex’s manipulations, but… Read more »

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“So, why doesn’t it work (some will say it doesn’t work “as well” but that is putting lipstick on a pig, at best) on old women, stale women, on women you did not Game at first? Good question.” She has already seen that you are not Alpha, so all of the “fake it till you make it” in the world isn’t going to make a bit of difference, if she is the primary objective. This is also why only “acting as if” you are Alpha rarely lasts. Eventually you will revert to, or relax into, what you really are, and… Read more »

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There is an archness, as well as a poignancy, to validating the male strategy as *interpreting* female resistance as an invitation to overcome. Maybe this is why “sexual conflict” per se hasn’t been as widely discussed as I think it should have been. Women lurkers please chime in here.

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Fat Femme Artist Picks Apart Your Preconceived Notions Of Beauty
Brought to you by Nabisco.

Painful story
Many years ago an acquaintance of mine went “hogging” and picked up a fat chick in a bar. He took her back to his apartment for sex. As he was eating her out he began squeezing and fondling her breasts. After a minute or so she said, “higher please”. He looked up and he had been squeezing the fat rolls of her belly.

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Good catch, Rollo, A Voice For FeMen is clearly heading down the same path as the GoodManginaProject. Paul Elam will be stunned when he gets tossed out of his own office, he will “never see it coming”. jf12 points to the Wiki article on sexual competition, and reading about spiders, snails, lizards, bedbugs, fruit flies, etc. really brought home to me how each sex’s reproductive strategy can truly cause harm to the other. That in turn revives old thoughts about the FI and feral females. Monogamous marriage benefits the vast majority of men and women, and makes civilization possible. But… Read more »

jf12
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Rusty German apologies. The male Will To Power is then nothing but der Wille zur Bezwingt Frauenwiderstand.

Glenn
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@ jf12 – The sexual conflict stuff is quite interesting and I am diving in too. A quote from the wikipedia entry you linked to. “Sensory exploitation by males is one mechanism that involves males attempting to overcome female reluctance. It can result in chase-away selection, which then leads to a co-evolutionary arms race. There are also other mechanisms involved in sexual conflict such as traumatic insemination, forced copulation, penis fencing, love darts and others. Female resistance traditionally includes reducing negative effects to mechanisms implemented by males, but outside the norm may include sexual cannibalism, increased fitness in females on… Read more »

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So, then, to which generation should naturally beta female-serving males look to naturally promote male interests? Off the top of my head I think it’s the third generation, but I haven’t bothered coding the sim yet.

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Third generation *after* natural betas. To be definite I think maybe it’s daughters’ sons’ sons that may have the best chance.

jf12
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We can do this the hard way or the easy way.

Weaponized nerds come up with Lybrido and stuff.

D-Man
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@Anonymous, re: war on monogamy, and females’ limited access to sperm: this is why, in this new era, it is absolutely imperative that we establish legally that all men have the right to: 1) test their children’s DNA against their own, and 2) a get out of jail free card if it ain’t a match. The FI, as you say, wants to have their cake and eat it too. It was Patriarchy you are trying to dismantle that said “any child born within a marriage is legally the husband’s”, in order to keep the machine running smoothly. There are no… Read more »

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There is a fairly simple dynamic at play, underlying both this shit testing discussion and the last few articles on love differences… 1) There is a relationship between a person’s perceived value/status and their leadership/dominance within a relationship. If you are perceived as higher value than the other person, they will be subordinate and comply with your requests. If you are perceived as lower value, then they will treat you like a subordinate, not comply with your requests, and expect you to acquiesce to their demands. 2) The relationship between value and leadership goes the other way too. So, if… Read more »

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^ That shit is tight, Doc Sums up much of what’s complained about. Today’s modern women, hopped up on the FI’s reign over popular culture and conditioning, are programmed to be resistant to seeing a man as dominant. They will constantly challenge him until they wear him down and make him their lap dog, their clydesdale.. The only way to fight it is to either sign up for a neverending power struggle (often timed for when you can least deal with it) and a drain on, rather than a reservoir for, your energies, or always be ready to GTFO. Loading...

jf12
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Aand … it’s happening. Woman is glad her ex found a nicer woman so that her sons can grow up expecting a nicer woman too. Women want their sons to expect not-so-much female resistance as the women themselves exhibit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tina-plantamura/an-open-letter-to-my-exhu_b_6459466.html

D-Man
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Holy hell jf, that woman is an insufferable nightmare of a control freak. No wonder 50 shades and its ilk are so starkly diametric, and doing so surprisingly well.

jf12
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Yes, btw, with the simplest assumptions it is the third generation that profits most.

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@ Glenn Nice stuff, all good racing for sure. I have to be careful naming what I have sailed as it will out me for sure. Grew up in Optimists, Have done tons of dinghy sailing. Laser, Laser >>, International 14’s for many years, Flying Dutchman, Tornados and some other exceptionally recognizable boats that I cannot mention. Big boats. 8 Meters, Farr 40’s, PHRF, J24’s all over the great lakes and beyond. IMS, IOR back in the day too, more than a few Chicago Mackinacs. More recently I have done one AC, yes the big one. For me, I am… Read more »

Jeremy
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Paul Elam banned me personally from AvFM. All I did was dare to mention that his “movement” uses one tactic that is exactly the same as feminism. He wouldn’t dare to engage intellectually and instead just posted some nice cheerleading for his fem-space moderators, trying to goad me out.

Fuckin sad really. Worse, Paul regards himself as masculine, and completely in-the-right in his methods. He doesn’t understand that his methods *are what define him as non-masculine*.

jf12
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A modest koan.

The cycle becomes a vehicle when it meets resistance.

Jeremy
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There are sailors here??

I race PHRF on a friends Olsen 30 twice a week. I used to be a liveaboard on someone else’s cruiser for a while.

The Lone Planet
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Game = finding ways to live with a rabid animal instead of putting it down.

jf12
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@Rollo, re: “this is just as much a shit test as anything else.”

Even if it smells like vanilla cake(s).
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/brian-williams-weighs-allison-williams-racy-sex-scene-article-1.2075030

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@ Rollo
suddenly, miraculously, becomes cheerful, positive, loving, sexual and appreciative of you after your business wildly succeeds or you receive a great promotion, this is just as much a shit test as anything else.

I always had a good relationship with my wife. However when my successes started to occur… holy cow… that cranked up the sex.

I never thought of that as a type of shit test. Maybe I don’t fully understand the meaning?

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo, Yes, the ultimate goals of men and women do differ in mating. Both are jockeying for position in a relationship, using the same dynamics, to increase their value, dominance, and control over the outcome of the interaction. However, the outcome that they ideally want to accomplish with that value and control, their mating goals, are different. When women dominate and choose, they are hypergamous. When men dominate and choose, they are polygamous. Thus, we see “divorce porn” for women….and “porn porn” for men. It is also why women who did not get to choose lament not being able… Read more »

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The hard way. Power. Power, which is Dominance, already makes a man much much much more likely to successfully force a woman if he wanted to. In fact, “they” say that such forcing is all about power. Status. The high social status man is much more likely to get away with successfully forcing a woman if he wanted to, especially if it comes down to his word against hers. Other women, even, will look down on her. Athleticism. A strong and fit man is much much much much more likely to be able to successfully chase her down and hold… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy
When women dominate and choose, they are hypergamous. When men dominate and choose, they are polygamous.

Your hypothesis is good but that being the case why do so many people end up in long-term, happy, monogamous relationships? In a sense the reality of relationships runs counter to either parties biological interests. From a strictly biological viewpoint 0% of marriages should work but in reality maybe 25% of marriages are great.

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@Rollo, re: “ending up living happily ever”

And all the womynz are thinking “What can he possibly have in common with her? And I’m a “challenge”, and I put up a lot more female resistance. What more could he want???”

jf12
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The easy way.

You know what it is.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Rollo I wanted to address this too: Self-sacrifice is a by product of that, but that idealism and the hope that both sexes share a mutual concept of love based on his performance-free ideal, is rooted in women’s opportunistic concept of love which is very much dictated by the Hypergamy her biology predisposes her to. This can just as easily be explained by his general sense of low value and unworthiness. Anyone who believes that they cannot “measure up” to a more desirable partner’s standards will fantasize about “being loved, just as they are”. Unattractive women, who do not… Read more »

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@ zdr01dz Your hypothesis is good but that being the case why do so many people end up in long-term, happy, monogamous relationships? In a sense the reality of relationships runs counter to either parties biological interests. Monogamy is a compromise and equilibrium between the biological interests of men and women. It does not maximally allow for either the man or woman to pursue their total interest. However, in reality, continuing to struggle and conflict may result in them ending up with much less. So, they arrange a compromise that facilitates “some” of what each wants in monogamy, rather than… Read more »

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@Jeremy “MGTOW is a healing stage in unplugging, not a healthy end state. The MGTOW men would of course say differently, because they are in pain and they see no end to it. The fact is that men and women must live together for humanity to function. What’s more, the mental anguish that causes a flight to MGTOW ultimately changes to appreciation when men realize the plight of women, and come to terms with base female motivations. Suddenly those old painful rejections that we remember start looking more like the poor decision of immature and narcissistic people who were mostly… Read more »

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“… the woman works to maintain her appearance…”

not just maintain, but change, new hairstyle, outfits, shoes, giving her man (and/or her plan B) a “new” woman to fuck

Bromeo
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@agent p “Try to not get too down. This is for sure the downside of RP, you cannot un-see it. I too struggle with that burden of performance, it’s a double shit kicking when things are not going swimmingly because you have to fix what is not working in life, like say my business, and you have to live with the knowledge that you are likely a few pegs down in her eyes as well as a result of the problem you are addressing.” You got me all wrong lol, I was just stating how important the burden of performance… Read more »

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A guy walks into a bar and walks up to three other guys. One of the three calls out loudly to the single guy, “Hey! Fatboy.” He walks over and says in return, “What are you fucking homos doing here? I didn’t know the PRIDE parade was this weekend.” Shit test? No, just ball busting. Men do that. There is pre-qualification to get into a group – military indoctrination, fraternity hazing, hassling the N00B – but that’s usually a one and done thing. If you show a sense of humor or make a minor effort to fit in then you’re… Read more »

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The compromise between good and worst is worse. The compromise between peace and war is conflict. The compromise between stability and chaos is nonequilibrium.

“Animal species that are not in a state of sexual conflict are more likely to be in sync to the male dominance hierarchy as the females are more docile in these organizations”

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JF12, what kind of men do you work with? Shit talking is an art form in my line of work and its a pretty high testosterone crowd and I reckon oil rigs are as well so my cursorily has been aroused. Like I have said before i don’t see the younger dudes challenging me as testing me per say, they are testing themselves and the world around them do men shit test women… do you mean tease them like they are 9 years old, rarely take them serious, call them “play things” “baby factories” etc, display all manner of benevolent… Read more »

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I’m sick of this shit as much as anyone is. But I remember Glenn saying something I completely agree with: MGTOW is a kind of “rage quit.” It’s easy to think you’re an “Alpha” when you isolate yourself and don’t open yourself up to any challenges that could potentially test how much of an Alpha you really, truly are. Or to just give up on changing your behaviors and settle for less than what you know you actually want. “Don’t wish it were easier; wish you were better.” I am absolutely in disbelief as I’m reading that link to the… Read more »

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Hetero men are the odd men out. Everyone else is against us and our sexual strategy.

Frederick, D., and Fales. M. 2014. Upset Over Sexual versus Emotional Infidelity Among Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Heterosexual Adults. Archives of Sexual Behavior. DOI: 10.1007/s10508-014-0409-9 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0409-9/fulltext.html

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@Glenn “I know, that doesn’t mean I don’t keep trying but there is also reality. The RP is about reality for me and according to reality, I’m just about past it. I do feel grateful for all the hot women I’ve fucked in my life (my N is over 100), I was very fortunate and also worked it very hard but still, to become a spectator in it all is just hard. And how I feel much of the time. I spend a lot of time observing and learning and taking what I can from these observations, but still, I’m… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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This is to illuminate a fact we seem to often loose conscious awareness of. Most of our discussions here and elsewhere relating to human behavior revolve around a nature vs nurture mental model. This nature vs nurture model is seriously flawed. The flaw is that it does not consider the real and very effectual existence of free will. Free will has steered the course of human history and has the power to steer each of our lives far more than anything else. If this were not true, we would not be where we are today technologically. Our free will ability… Read more »

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@sfcton, re: “everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence ie power.”

Yeah. But it’s still kind of ugly to me to rip the PSALM apart to see what makes it tick.

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@Softek, re: “or only take it halfway”

That’s been my plan, although I can’t recommend it except half-heartedly …
I will say my half-smirk has gotten a lot broader even just today.

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@sfcton, re: “i don’t see the younger dudes challenging me as testing me per say, they are testing themselves and the world around them”

That’s what I’m saying. I don’t get challenges or testing per se from men, and certainly not incessantly.

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A Publication From The Future!

Fox, J., and Rooney, M. 2015. The Dark Triad and trait self-objectification as predictors of men’s use and self-presentation behaviors on social networking sites. Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 76, April 2015, Pages 161–165.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886914007259

The authors argue that a man posting a lot of pictures of himself and clearly editing them to make himself look better is the single best way for a man to show off his Dark Triadness these days.

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@ Dr. Jeremy
Only the boss holds standards and goals of performance. The worker endeavors to live up to them, perform, and dreams of a utopia where they get paid anyway.

In fact, anybody who wants something, but does not believe that they have the ability or value to obtain it, ultimately tries to argue for a performance-free ideal to get it anyway.

That really stuck with me. I see it everywhere. Business, politics, relationships, retired people, etc. etc.

jf12
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And here’s the one from today. The takeaway: context is king, and nurture is queen, and nature is barely the red-headed servant.

Ryan Schacht, Monique Borgerhoff Mulder. Sex ratio effects on reproductive strategies in humans. Royal Society Open Science. DOI: 10.1098/rsos.140402. Published 14 January 2015.
http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/1/140402

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Dark Triad = using female sexual strategies

Jeremy
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Hah, I just clicked and read that whole tweet Rollo shared above. The original post that Sue banned for were literally the exact thing I was talking about that got me banned. That was an avfm commenter who is essentially laying the groundwork for a split between angry MGTOW men being treated poorly by avfm, and avfm who truly believes they’re doing right by bringing about equalism. That is exactly the kinds of splits that feminism suffered through with it’s false ideology of victimization. It is also exactly the kind of tension you see between elements of cults when extreme… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Joe Blow – It seems to me that male ball busting is a fitness test and hierarchy establishing exercise. I know because I don’t submit easily to another man’s dominance, and in fact usually assert mine in any group I’m part of. The difference to me is that I’m competing with the other men – I’m not competing with women, I’m essentially qualifying with her by rejecting her framing of me as a less worthy mating candidate and establishing my own frame. That’s why making the insult ridiculous and turning it into fun works so well. Just imagine the… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy Monogamy is a compromise and equilibrium between the biological interests of men and women. It does not maximally allow for either the man or woman to pursue their total interest. I think your analysis holds water. The only thing I might add is that monogamy frees up time to pursue other interests in life. If I spent all my time chasing women I would miss out on something else. Some of the PUA artist videos on YouTube are amazing. I have respect for their abilities. But at the end of the day all they get is 20… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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ALPHA FUCKS = Bad Boy = Sexual Pet BETA BUCKS = Good Dad = Good Provider BOTH of these male characterizations are feminine primary. They both require the male to display and exercise specifically and clearly prescribed traits and roles as defined by a feminine frame. Hopeful practitioners seek to satisfy specifics of one or both. These traits and roles extensively described in detail originate from the female paradigm regardless of who is describing them. And what a theatrical paradigm it is…..The “BURDEN OF PERFORMANCE” is female primary. Do you really want to be trapped on her hamster wheel? Are… Read more »

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sfcton
January 14th, 2015 at 7:55 am

I have to disagree that shit test aren’t pass/ fail. Shit tests are pass/ fail. Pass them and your value/ frame improves or stays neutral. Fail them and the pussy dries up. Pass enough of them and the number of shit tests decline but I agree there is no finality to them.

Yes.

Anonymous2
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Women have evolved not to be complementary partners or helpmates to men, but rather exploitive, parasitic users. Women use and exploit men using chivalry to shame men into supporting, serving and providing for them.

M Simon
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Not Born This Morning
January 14th, 2015 at 5:30 pm

Do you want to f*ck c*nts or not? It does no good to play football in a baseball game.

Do you want children or not? You will need to master her on her terms if you want to avoid the courts.

OK. You are going to avoid THEM. Good. More for me.

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@Rollo, re: ” In our evolutionary past, killing a rival was the ultimate social proof of Alpha dominance.”

The quote is from your Insanity Plea post.But I submit that, since alpha is a *sexual* concept involving primarily dominance in inter-sexual conflict, NOT intra-sexual competition for enhanced female sexual selection, then there is an entirely different proof of actual Alpha dominance.

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Anonymous2
January 14th, 2015 at 5:52 pm

Yeah? So? You want to get laid or not? Raise a family or not?

You might as well say lion taming is a dangerous sport. You up for it or not?

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Unfortunately a broadening smirk is not very appropriate for Wednesday night Bible study. Also unfortunately I can’t seem to find someone to wipe that smirk off my face for me, so I’ll have to do it myself.

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